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Jon
10-19-2020, 06:50 PM
Hi Guys,

Over in the European/Western forum there's a thread that discusses the Irish DNA atlas results. Recently they were posting about the Lara Cassidy thesis that was finally made public back in May. Apparently there are at least 2 aDNA finds in Munster that are L513!! Seems like huge news for us, I was surprised I hadn't heard about it before. Has anyone got any more information?

Nqp15hhu
10-20-2020, 06:04 AM
I donít have more information but I have heard about this. There is also a native branch in Fermanagh.

http://freepages.rootsweb.com/~dgarvey/genealogy/L513D2/D2_summary2.html

Jon
10-20-2020, 10:41 AM
Seems both the finds in Munster were R1b-CTS3087, but found 140km apart (one in Kerry, one in Cork). That is pretty massive. That means that related guys, of the same family/kin group, were widespread in the Munster Province. Seems to have been dated to around 400-600 AD.

Nqp15hhu
10-20-2020, 03:42 PM
https://sites.google.com/site/bowessurnames/origins/ireland/critique-of-dr-bowes-theory/vi-new-erroneous-claim-of-deep-scottish-roots

IanFitzpatrick
10-27-2020, 02:59 PM
Sample 1 - Courtmacsherry, Cork - Dated 540-662 AD - Lintel Grave - L21/S145 > DF13 > L513/S215/DF1 > S6365 > Z16361 > CTS750+

Sample 2 - Ballybunnion, Kerry - Dated 583-674 AD - Lintel Grave - L21/S145 > DF13 > L513/S215/DF1 > S6365 > Z16361 > CTS750+

Nqp15hhu
10-27-2020, 06:11 PM
So where did these lines originate?

Jon
10-27-2020, 07:07 PM
So where did these lines originate?

There are big groups of L513 with Munster connections in the genealogical timeframe - the main Kerry group of O'Shea, for example; a significant group of O'Donoghues, some McCarthys, and others. The fact that these two ancient remains share exactly the same downstream SNP's, but were found 140km apart, proves that this kinship group, whatever/whoever it represents, was quite widespread in the Kingdom of Munster in early medieval times.

I posted elsewhere on the significance of the locations: both places are right on the coast. Seems a lot of L513, wherever it's found, is coastal. It's also been found in 2 remains as part of the Viking World study - one in Dorset, one in the Faroes. There's a theory that the L513 line came from the ancient Menapii tribe of Gaul, perhaps coming to Ireland and Scotland at the same time. Perhaps these guys were indeed expert seafarers. I've often thought that the Gall Gaidheal of Galloway in SW Scotland might be a good bet for the L513 found down there - coastal, again, with links to further up the western Scottish coast (Argyll/Hebrides etc.).

This of course is all speculation so far, but it's great to get some more aDNA that will help us piece together the jigsaw.

Nqp15hhu
10-28-2020, 02:33 PM
So you think that these are ancient SW Scotland? So where is the native L513 in Ulster?

Jon
10-28-2020, 04:10 PM
So you think that these are ancient SW Scotland? So where is the native L513 in Ulster?

I don't necessarily think that the aDNA L513 that has been found in Munster originated in SW Scotland. They belong to a downstream SNP that seems to have more representation in Ireland today. It's all speculation, but so far I think it probably went something like this:

- L21 was present in the Bell Beaker folks who migrated west through Europe. At some stage the L513 SNP evolved among them.

- L513 folks were part of a major wave into Britain and Ireland (I believe these folks probably mostly settled in Ireland and Scotland, but that is based on the present day frequency, and limited testing rates of course).

- L513, along with other L21 clades (e.g. DF49, DF21 and the rest) were successful in Britain and Ireland, developing the many sub-branches we see today. As part of this branching, L513 grew many well-populated branches in Ireland and Scotland (and maybe elsewhere) simultaneously. So for example it looks like L193 was developing in Scotland at the same time as the Irish branches were developing in Ireland. That's not to say that L513 folks did not travel between the islands - of course they did, but there seem to be well established L513 clades that are very frequent in one particular area (like L193 in Scotland).

So I guess the questions that interest me are:

1. Who were the main L513 guys when they arrived in the isles? Some say Menapii, from Gaul. I simply don't know.
2. Which kinship/clan groups in the isles are represented by the various subclades of L513? I know that the big Maguire grouping with Ulster roots looks like it is majority L513. L193 looks Scottish, and seems to be spread all over (possibly with more frequency in the west, like most of L21). For the longest time I'Ve been wondering whether the L193 guys were mostly Picts, Gaels, Ancient Britons or what else. I suspect that L193 was found in several, if not all, of these groups. My 'pet theory' is that L193 in the SW of Scotland might be connected to the Gall Gaidheal - I base this on the general maritime frequency of L513, as well as the western frequency of L193 in Scotland and the link between the Hebrides and Galloway/Ayrshire, which was the homeland of the Gall Gaidheal in the early medieval period.

I welcome disagreement with any of the above, and of course debate of the points raised!

IanFitzpatrick
10-28-2020, 05:46 PM
One has to tread very very carefully when making assumptions on the lines of L21, it is not simple that's for sure and looking at results from todays modern population's NGS test results can be very very misleading.

Here is an example of what I mean

These are the lines we have in the Fitzpatrick DNA project. They are not lines that end in a singular Fitzpatrick man, those men are not on this chart. The lines either have SNP branching or STR branches of more than 3 men with TRMCA's calculated before 1600 AD.

Which one of these lines is "THE" Fitzpatrick line? Look at the variety of L21 Children that make up this collection of Fitzpatrick surnames.

Which one of these lines would you say is not Irish in origin?

There are definitely stories to be told from these very early stages of Genetic Genealogy but we are still in the "earth is flat" stage of things.

I will tell you one thing, with each incoming test result we learn more and more, but the lesson I have learned in the last few years of studying and research is....expect the unexpected.

40721

Nqp15hhu
10-28-2020, 05:54 PM
I don't necessarily think that the aDNA L513 that has been found in Munster originated in SW Scotland. They belong to a downstream SNP that seems to have more representation in Ireland today. It's all speculation, but so far I think it probably went something like this:

- L21 was present in the Bell Beaker folks who migrated west through Europe. At some stage the L513 SNP evolved among them.

- L513 folks were part of a major wave into Britain and Ireland (I believe these folks probably mostly settled in Ireland and Scotland, but that is based on the present day frequency, and limited testing rates of course).

- L513, along with other L21 clades (e.g. DF49, DF21 and the rest) were successful in Britain and Ireland, developing the many sub-branches we see today. As part of this branching, L513 grew many well-populated branches in Ireland and Scotland (and maybe elsewhere) simultaneously. So for example it looks like L193 was developing in Scotland at the same time as the Irish branches were developing in Ireland. That's not to say that L513 folks did not travel between the islands - of course they did, but there seem to be well established L513 clades that are very frequent in one particular area (like L193 in Scotland).

So I guess the questions that interest me are:

1. Who were the main L513 guys when they arrived in the isles? Some say Menapii, from Gaul. I simply don't know.
2. Which kinship/clan groups in the isles are represented by the various subclades of L513? I know that the big Maguire grouping with Ulster roots looks like it is majority L513. L193 looks Scottish, and seems to be spread all over (possibly with more frequency in the west, like most of L21). For the longest time I'Ve been wondering whether the L193 guys were mostly Picts, Gaels, Ancient Britons or what else. I suspect that L193 was found in several, if not all, of these groups. My 'pet theory' is that L193 in the SW of Scotland might be connected to the Gall Gaidheal - I base this on the general maritime frequency of L513, as well as the western frequency of L193 in Scotland and the link between the Hebrides and Galloway/Ayrshire, which was the homeland of the Gall Gaidheal in the early medieval period.

I welcome disagreement with any of the above, and of course debate of the points raised!

Ok fair enough. You sound like you are well versed in this subject. I am L193 myself and am interested in determining a point of origin. There doesnít seem to be a particular region for L193.

I will watch along.

Jon
10-28-2020, 07:26 PM
Ok fair enough. You sound like you are well versed in this subject. I am L193 myself and am interested in determining a point of origin. There doesnít seem to be a particular region for L193.

I will watch along.

Like Ian says (previous comment), it is really tough, and as things develop, the old assumptions shift. For example, back in the day (around 10 years ago), L193 was nicknamed 'Scottish Borders', because there were a lot of testers who traced genealogy back to that region of Scotland. However, now I don't think you can really say that. There are lots of lines with trails back to the Hebrides, to Perthshire, to Lanark and central Scotland, and even much further north (e.g. the Mathesons). We're probably quite a long way off being able to untangle it all.

But that's why I think the aDNA finds in Munster are so important. Because that establishes that L513 was in that area at that early stage (c. 500AD).

IanFitzpatrick
10-28-2020, 10:18 PM
But that's why I think the aDNA finds in Munster are so important. Because that establishes that L513 was in that area at that early stage (c. 500AD).

Yes, and that’s an amazing fact (not speculation) to have, only a handful of Haplogroups have that information

Jon
10-29-2020, 09:07 AM
Yes, and that’s an amazing fact (not speculation) to have, only a handful of Haplogroups have that information

That's what I think. I find it a bit confusing that this has not caused much more discussion and excitement in the L513 group here, or on Facebook, or the FTDNA chat forum. I've posted on all those sites, but not getting much back. As far as I know, the closest equivalent of this was the DF21 remains found on Rathlin Island a few years back, and that caused a major stir.

IanFitzpatrick
10-29-2020, 11:24 AM
I find it a bit confusing that this has not caused much more discussion and excitement in the L513 group here, or on Facebook, or the FTDNA chat forum.

The implications of these finds extends all the way up to L21 in my opinion.

To find two samples dated back to pretty much the time FGC11134 originated shows that FGC11134 men were settled in Ireland around 2200BC.

We have two nicely developed L513 Fitzpatrick lines and we are researching the relationship between the Cavan/Fermanagh Fitzpatricks with the Maguire which was a close one historically.



In case anyone missed my post in the CTS4466 thread here are the results

Sample 1 - Found Treanmacmurtagh, Sligo -Cist Burial Dated to 2015-1758 BC FGC11134+
Sample 2 - Found Pollnagollum Cave, Fermanagh - Cave find Dated 2349 - 2135 BC FGC11134+
Sample 3 - Found Claristown, Meath - Lintel Burial Dated 60-420 AD CTS44466 & S1115+

The carbon dates have been calibrated and I am sure they are very much in the range.

When you look at how close the generations from L21 to the sons of DF13 really are, it suggests L21 could have been born anywhere in the region.

I could easily make a case that the concentration map of modern L21 is explained with an Irish origin. Many have suggested L21 was "driven" into Ireland and died out everywhere else.

40760

Jon
10-29-2020, 12:02 PM
Great stuff, thanks Ian. Certainly L21 in terms of frequency and diversity is probably best represented in Ireland/W Scotland. I've heard others vigorously argue for a continental origin for L21; but certainly the Eupedia map, as well as these emerging aDNA finds might start swinging the case over to an Irish origin? It's amazing to see this picture unfold, it really is.

Jon
10-29-2020, 01:21 PM
We have two nicely developed L513 Fitzpatrick lines and we are researching the relationship between the Cavan/Fermanagh Fitzpatricks with the Maguire which was a close one historically.

40760

Just checked out the Fitzpatrick project site/s. Really interesting. Seems to be a very diverse surname/clan grouping, and of mutual interest to us here in L513! I wasn't aware of it as a big L513 surname, nor of the Maguire link.

IanFitzpatrick
10-29-2020, 02:05 PM
Seems to be a very diverse surname/clan grouping

Dr Mike Fitzpatrick wrote a very interesting paper found here

https://www.mdpi.com/2313-5778/4/1/25/htm

Just a few years ago as Y-DNA lines began to surface with very limited information it became almost first come first serve on who was going to lay claim to being the "name" line. the huge number of threads on this board that end in 2015 is mainly due to the fact it started to become very apparent that the thinking that clans had one DNA line was really unrealistic. Irish clans were made from very diverse groups of people that probably took a clan name for many reasons and DNA is showing this.

The Fitzpatrick DNA study is one of the oldest Surname Y-DNA studies out there started in 2005 by Dr Colleen Fitzpatrick

Jon
10-29-2020, 05:03 PM
Thanks Ian, this looks great. I'll do my homework on the Fitzpatrick lineages ;)

It may still be too early to disentangle all the L21 lines...but maybe it's getting to the point where we can tentatively suggest language communities? With this recent aDNA find for L513, and the western bias in Scotland, I'm starting to think this was a marker spread by Goedelic language speakers. There's a fair bit of L513 in Perthshire, but that region was also colonised by Gaels of course. The L513 communities in Ireland and Scotland might be part of the ancient Gael communities in both places.

Mag Uidhir 6
10-29-2020, 07:22 PM
I KNEW there was a reason I logged in today (and played a two week catch up)!!

Jon ans Ian, Many thanks for the outstanding data!! Among my most frequent grumbles has been "When will we find both genetic and archeological evidence of AGE?" Seems like we are getting there. I just figured that most of my ancient ancestors were raiders and traders, living in marshes or coastal locations that tend not to preserve remains well. Ian, your links above are GOLD!!

And yes, based upon the Z1640 SNP shared by us A2 types with only Belgian and Swedes...that simply screams Menapii, to me. S5668 is where we shared our earlier ancestors, very close in time to L513, but significant in that L193 and Z16340 both have maritime patterns. My pet hypothesis is that L193 = Venti tribe where us A2 are Menapii tribe....but that's just a gut feeling, until more bones are found and sequenced.

TigerMW
10-29-2020, 09:50 PM
But that's why I think the aDNA finds in Munster are so important. Because that establishes that L513 was in that area at that early stage (c. 500AD).
Since both these guys are CTS3087/CTS750, are about about 500 AD, and L513 is about 1900 BC, this doesn't establish L513 as originating in Ireland. Yes, it sure has been in the British Isles for a long time, probably in old Britons and probably in old Gaels too. Then we have the folks from Belgium and Sweden...

By the way, do we know if they are CTS3087+ or - or a no call? That would be interesting if these samples broke the phylogenetic block.

I am excited about any ancient DNA from L513 but I think we have to start looking at clans harder, which I don't really know well. Contrary to popular opinion, I try to be quiet if I don't anything intelligent to say. On the other hand, I'm sure many don't think I have ANYthing intelligent to say.:)

Jon
10-30-2020, 09:39 AM
Since both these guys are CTS3087/CTS750, are about about 500 AD, and L513 is about 1900 BC, this doesn't establish L513 as originating in Ireland. Yes, it sure has been in the British Isles for a long time, probably in old Britons and probably in old Gaels too. Then we have the folks from Belgium and Sweden...

By the way, do we know if they are CTS3087+ or - or a no call? That would be interesting if these samples broke the phylogenetic block.

I am excited about any ancient DNA from L513 but I think we have to start looking at clans harder, which I don't really know well. Contrary to popular opinion, I try to be quiet if I don't anything intelligent to say. On the other hand, I'm sure many don't think I have ANYthing intelligent to say.:)

Thanks Mike, great to hear your thoughts, and always welcome - you are MISTER L513 (!), never forget it!

I'm afraid I don't have any additional info on the finds as yet. Maybe that's the reason for this second delay: perhaps they're doing additional analysis?

Very cool that we have L513 on the 'aDNA map' now, with this and the Viking World study.

IanFitzpatrick
10-30-2020, 11:04 AM
Since both these guys are CTS3087/CTS750, are about about 500 AD, and L513 is about 1900 BC, this doesn't establish L513 as originating in Ireland

By the way, do we know if they are CTS3087+ or - or a no call? That would be interesting if these samples broke the phylogenetic block.



It also doesn't eliminate the possibility L513 originated in Ireland either. The fact FGC11134 was there also doesn't prove L513 was in Ireland, but it sure makes the possibility it could have been there much higher.
Again, does a few hundred miles difference in the place of origin really mean much at all?

The sample was not tested for CTS3087, neither + or - or no call.

IanFitzpatrick
10-30-2020, 11:40 AM
Just checked out the Fitzpatrick project site/s. Really interesting. Seems to be a very diverse surname/clan grouping, and of mutual interest to us here in L513! I wasn't aware of it as a big L513 surname, nor of the Maguire link.

We have some interesting connections to the Maguires with Padraig surnames.

Of course the L513 line but specifically we have Fitzpatricks FGC9811+ . We will be researching and investing in BigY testing for this group in the near future

http://peterspioneers.com/fermanaghstory.pdf
Here it is written "In Fermanagh the Fitzpatricks were a branch of the Maguires"

There is also a very interesting result under FGC5494 however with two deep connections of two Fitzpatrick men from the Cavan area who also connect with two Lunney men.
https://sites.rootsweb.com/~amaguire/oriel.htm

In the "Geinealaighe Fearmanach" or in English "Fermanagh Genealogies" written by O'Luinnis, found in Coleman's College, Fermoy, County Cork, the pedigrees of more than a thousand Maguire families are recorded. Padar Livingstons "The Fermanagh Story", p.432, reports that the "O'Luinnis or Giolla Padraig O' Luinin of Inishmore Island mentioned above helped Micheal O' Cleirigh and the Four Masters in the Abbey of Lisgoole, which by the way was founded by Cuchonngacht Maguire II in 1583, when they were re-compiling the "Leabhar Gabhala - The Book of the Talkings" a history of Ireland from oral traditions, in 1631. Possibly the same man , but described as Padraig Ballach O' Luinin, who copied words for Brian Maguire of Tempo in 1638".



One of the largest Fitzpatrick blocks also seems to have roots in Breifne under ZZ44 which if you look here has a definitely Irish Block, English Block and a more Scots block with a man from the Ukraine?? Was ZZ44 Irish, Scot or English born?
http://www.ytree.net/DisplayTree.php?blockID=1084

These are further examples that illustrate the complexity of clan roots and how they came to the modern surnames they have today. One must keep a wide open mind on this topic and be careful not to become entrenched in one theory.

Jon
10-30-2020, 01:14 PM
We have some interesting connections to the Maguires with Padraig surnames.

Of course the L513 line but specifically we have Fitzpatricks FGC9811+ . We will be researching and investing in BigY testing for this group in the near future

http://peterspioneers.com/fermanaghstory.pdf
Here it is written "In Fermanagh the Fitzpatricks were a branch of the Maguires"

There is also a very interesting result under FGC5494 however with two deep connections of two Fitzpatrick men from the Cavan area who also connect with two Lunney men.
https://sites.rootsweb.com/~amaguire/oriel.htm

In the "Geinealaighe Fearmanach" or in English "Fermanagh Genealogies" written by O'Luinnis, found in Coleman's College, Fermoy, County Cork, the pedigrees of more than a thousand Maguire families are recorded. Padar Livingstons "The Fermanagh Story", p.432, reports that the "O'Luinnis or Giolla Padraig O' Luinin of Inishmore Island mentioned above helped Micheal O' Cleirigh and the Four Masters in the Abbey of Lisgoole, which by the way was founded by Cuchonngacht Maguire II in 1583, when they were re-compiling the "Leabhar Gabhala - The Book of the Talkings" a history of Ireland from oral traditions, in 1631. Possibly the same man , but described as Padraig Ballach O' Luinin, who copied words for Brian Maguire of Tempo in 1638".



One of the largest Fitzpatrick blocks also seems to have roots in Breifne under ZZ44 which if you look here has a definitely Irish Block, English Block and a more Scots block with a man from the Ukraine?? Was ZZ44 Irish, Scot or English born?
http://www.ytree.net/DisplayTree.php?blockID=1084

These are further examples that illustrate the complexity of clan roots and how they came to the modern surnames they have today. One must keep a wide open mind on this topic and be careful not to become entrenched in one theory.

Well said Ian - I will take time look into all of this information.

I agree that a few hundred miles in terms of point of origin is less important. Wherever these L21 groups originated doesn't change the by now undeniable fact that in terms of density, diversity, and ancient presence (as evidenced by ongoing aDNA finds), Ireland is a massive hotspot.

IanFitzpatrick
10-31-2020, 04:40 AM
Ireland is a massive hotspot.

Ireland really started to see a population explosion after 800 AD

Jon
10-31-2020, 02:26 PM
Ireland really started to see a population explosion after 800 AD

Any reasons for that?

IanFitzpatrick
10-31-2020, 06:24 PM
I’m not really sure the exact cause of the explosion but you can definitely see it, like counting rings on a tree.

The best way to see it is on any large Haplogroup on the Big Tree. Pick one like L513 or FGC11134 and you can see a pattern of long bottlenecked lines that really start to branch around 800-900 AD

It’s probably not a coincidence that around this time is when clans started to form

Jon
11-01-2020, 09:58 AM
I’m not really sure the exact cause of the explosion but you can definitely see it, like counting rings on a tree.

The best way to see it is on any large Haplogroup on the Big Tree. Pick one like L513 or FGC11134 and you can see a pattern of long bottlenecked lines that really start to branch around 800-900 AD

It’s probably not a coincidence that around this time is when clans started to form

Thanks Ian. You see this branching with L193 in Scotland as well - although I believe that's been timed slightly earlier, around the time the Romans left, which would also make sense.

I'Ve been doing a bit of digging on this, as I'm not so familiar with the Irish clan system. It seems that the Irish clans were tied to earlier kinship and tribal groups. This is different from the Scottish clan system I think. In Scotland, some of the more ancient clans were tied to earlier celtic tribal groups, but the clans don't really take off until later medieval times. A good number of the Scottish clans were formed by Normans, for example.

It's so tempting to speculate...but I was reading a bit about Munster again. The Corcu Duibne caught my eye, as one of the principle septs in Munster, and the ancestors of the O'Shea. They were part of the Sil Conairi of the Erainn, who were seemingly an older group based in Munster, pushed out of power by later incomers (like the Eogonachta). The Sil Conairi who remained in Munster have been attributed with the rise of Ogham script....and were, apparently renowned sailors. This has fired my imagination on the coastal burial sites of our two aDNA L513 men (these locations would suggest maritime lives and/or marginal communities pushed out by other groups). To add to it all, the Sil Conairi were also said to be the ancestors of the Dal Riata, and even two early Kings of the Picts (which could explain the close Scottish-Irish connections in L513).

I openly admit: most of this is very new knowledge for me, and yes, I did consult Wikipedia (not the most reliable font of knowledge!). But this seems to be a heck of a lot of coincidences. I know that L513 is old, and I know it's been in Ireland and Scotland for a long, long time (wherever it came from, and indeed the Erainn have an origin myth tracing back to Gaul, which might fit in with the recent suggestion that L513 is linked to ancient Gaulish tribes as well).

I accept that you, and others, know an awful lot more about this than I do! This just caught my eye.