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pmokeefe
10-23-2020, 05:16 PM
Over at FTDNA https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/r-1b-cts4466-plus/about/results
"There is the promising potential of Wales as a source from whence the early Irish Type II ancestors migrated to Munster."

Any other sources for that hypothesis?

Sources for competing hypotheses to the origin of CTS4466 in Wales?

IanFitzpatrick
10-27-2020, 02:49 PM
Recent DNA finds FGC11134+ bones found in Ireland show FGC11134 could have been in Ireland and it could be possible it was before CTS4466 was formed.

Any suggestions that someone knows the origin of CTS4466 is nothing more than complete speculation

Sample 1 - Found Treanmacmurtagh, Sligo -Cist Burial Dated to 2015-1758 BC FGC11134+
Sample 2 - Found Pollnagollum Cave, Fermanagh - Cave find Dated 2349 - 2135 BC FGC11134+
Sample 3 - Found Claristown, Meath - Lintel Burial Dated 60-420 AD CTS44466 & S1115+

The oldest date there is about the time FGC11134 was formed so there is even a case to be made that FGC11134 was formed in Ireland.

pmokeefe
10-27-2020, 03:31 PM
Recent DNA finds FGC11134+ bones found in Ireland show FGC11134 could have been in Ireland and it could be possible it was before CTS4466 was formed.

Any suggestions that someone knows the origin of CTS4466 is nothing more than complete speculation

Sample 1 - Found Treanmacmurtagh, Sligo -Cist Burial Dated to 2015-1758 BC FGC11134+
Sample 2 - Found Pollnagollum Cave, Fermanagh - Cave find Dated 2349 - 2135 BC FGC11134+
Sample 3 - Found Claristown, Meath - Lintel Burial Dated 60-420 AD CTS44466 & S1115+

The oldest date there is about the time FGC11134 was formed so there is even a case to be made that FGC11134 was formed in Ireland.

I tried to find the sources for those without success. The first two evidently appeared in Cassidy's thesis, which is embargoed?

However some comments about those samples here:
https://groups.io/g/R1b-CTS4466-Plus/topic/two_cts4466_predecessors_in/76013284?p=,,,20,0,0,0::recentpostdate%2Fsticky,,, 20,2,0,76013284

Trevlos21
10-28-2020, 07:04 AM
Over at FTDNA https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/r-1b-cts4466-plus/about/results
"There is the promising potential of Wales as a source from whence the early Irish Type II ancestors migrated to Munster."


I read both the old yahoo and new io CTS4466 FTDNA forums and my take away is that this theory is being increasingly presented as fact based on a lack of understanding of Welsh history. Especially surname development in Ireland vs Wales, but also basic historic population movements between Wales and Ireland, Scotland and the north of England.

I’m not sure if it’s relevant or “playing the man rather than the ball”, but the FTDNA admin who is the main driver of the ‘out of Wales’ theory either has Welsh ancestry and her husband is CTS4466. Or her father was CTS466 and her husband has Welsh ancestry. Either way I wonder if it’s more wishful thinking than anything?




Any other sources for that hypothesis?


Nope. Because without a lot more testing and a bit of luck it’s unprovable.

The theory is basically that early branches of CTS4466 have Welsh surnames, so that is an indication of where early CTS4466 developed/stopped off before spreading, some staying in Wales, others to Northern England, Scotland, Northern Ireland and some to Munster.

For an unknown, never clarified reason the admins seem to think that early CTS4466 would be more likely to have recently arrived in Wales before spreading. I’m not sure if that’s a genetic reason with so little CTS4466 in Wales, or if they are holding onto the “Celtic Invasion” c. 500/100 BC idea.

The problem is that the “Welsh names” are incredibly small both in names and numbers of testers. The earliest branch off in CTS4466 is A7751 which has Welsh names. Then it’s “brother” S1115 divides into 3 branches, BY23591 with Welsh names, A212 with Scottish, Northern Irish and English names, and FGC84010 which branches into Munster and the Seven Septs of Laois.

A7751 has very few testers
Jones (aka son of John)
Morgan (son of Morcant)
Roberts (son of Robert)
Sellars x2 (occupational)

BY23591 is mainly Roberts, a few Jones’ and one Sturgil

Surnames in Wales tended to be “son/daughter of”, or incorporate place names or nicknames. It wasn’t until the 1500s that surnames started to become commonplace and didn’t become universal until as late as the 1800s. They aren’t able to be pinned to locations or “clans” within Wales like seems to be the case in Ireland with the Driscolls for instance.

It's certainly interesting, but the small numbers involved, late development of Welsh surnames and general flow of traffic being Ireland to Wales, Ireland to Scotland, and Scotland to north of England and Wales in early history, rather than Wales to those places, seem to make it hard to prove.

Trevlos21
10-28-2020, 07:22 AM
Sources for competing hypotheses to the origin of CTS4466 in Wales?

Not sources, but theories for CTS4466 I’ve seen on the old and new boards include:

* “Classic” Milesian from Spain
Breaks down into
- Descendant of one of Judah’s sons. Often people who believe this think that the prophet Jeremiah took the last King of Israel’s daughter’s from exile in Egypt to Ireland to marry into the line.
- Scythian, so Pontic Steppe
- Galicia in Spain
- That it’s a myth based on a grain of truth and so descended from the Basque people
- Northern Spain- Concani-, going to the west of Ireland - Gangani on Ptolemy's map- and invading/taking control of a small part of north Wales - “promontory of the Gangani” on Ptolemy's map

* Wave of migration from Europe
- Central Europe with the “classic” idea of Celtic spread seems the most popular with the admins
- From France, especially Brittany
- Spain/Portugal, so essentially a “Milesian myth is based on a grain of truth” idea
- Bell Beaker direction of travel

Trevlos21
10-28-2020, 07:27 AM
Recent DNA finds FGC11134+ bones found in Ireland show FGC11134 could have been in Ireland and it could be possible it was before CTS4466 was formed.

Any suggestions that someone knows the origin of CTS4466 is nothing more than complete speculation

Sample 1 - Found Treanmacmurtagh, Sligo -Cist Burial Dated to 2015-1758 BC FGC11134+
Sample 2 - Found Pollnagollum Cave, Fermanagh - Cave find Dated 2349 - 2135 BC FGC11134+
Sample 3 - Found Claristown, Meath - Lintel Burial Dated 60-420 AD CTS44466 & S1115+

The oldest date there is about the time FGC11134 was formed so there is even a case to be made that FGC11134 was formed in Ireland.

I was surprised but the FTDNA admins all seem to dismiss the first two finds out of hand as totally irrelevant to the development of CTS4466. They've said that it's much more likely that those two FGC11134+ individuals had their lines die out and then, much, much later that a FGC11134+>CTS4466 individual came to Ireland and left living descendants today.

But in that thread posted above, I can't see any real reasoning other than "just because"?

IanFitzpatrick
10-28-2020, 11:31 AM
I think that CTS4466 came from the moon and I have about as much concrete evidence to show it did as anyone else has to back up their theory of the origins.....none.

If people realized how many CTS4466 men (millions) there are out there and how infinitesimally small the actual sample size of NGS testing for CTS4466 is in comparison, nobody would be making any claims at all.

There is simply not enough data to make any reasonable assertion, it will become so complicated even when there is enough data.

Pinning down where exactly the SNP was born 4000 years ago is simply not going to happen..... at the end of the day does it really make much of a difference that it originated in a very small specific area, we know where it probably didn't come from with a relatively high degree of possibility.

The people back in 2500 BC travelled around much more than we think, they were mobile all over the Isles and probably back to the continent.

Just go back a read a few threads on the board from years ago to see how wrong the theories were, they were also based on the very small sample of Y-DNA results that were available at the time. After reading a few threads, think about how small the sample size we currently have available to us really is and nobody, with any shred of credibility, would claim to know a single SNP's origins form 4000 years ago.

It's entertaining to speculate no doubt, but to have any serious argument on this topic is a waste of energy.

Then, when countered with evidence that FGC11134 was on the island over 4000 years ago and it's defended it with "they left or died and came back" is just a little laughable to be honest. Answer this question, how many generations are there between CTS4466 and FGC11134.......left and came back, died off and more came later.???....points for a great imagination though

Murphy
05-28-2021, 06:11 PM
I suppose a simple counter to the out of Wales hypothesis would be that the earlier branches being Welsh could be indicative of the opposite. That the Irish invaded Wales at a point in time and that's where the branch splits. Just an idea to throw in the mix. One of my upstream mutations ended up in Sweden around the Viking Age. Doesn't mean my branch were Vikings, but that someone was either enslaved or transported to Sweden during that time.

Trevlos21
06-08-2021, 03:32 PM
I suppose a simple counter to the out of Wales hypothesis would be that the earlier branches being Welsh could be indicative of the opposite. That the Irish invaded Wales at a point in time and that's where the branch splits. Just an idea to throw in the mix. One of my upstream mutations ended up in Sweden around the Viking Age. Doesn't mean my branch were Vikings, but that someone was either enslaved or transported to Sweden during that time.

And in fact there is plenty of evidence of Irish involvement in Wales.

Ptolemy (150AD) has a map that is possibly based on a 350BCE map in which North Wales (Gwynedd) had the Gangani or Concani in the Lynn Peninsula, and the South West of Ireland also had this group.

For years historians thought the Concani came from Spain, around the same region that the Milesians where supposed to have come from due to similarities with the names of one of the tribes there. The forbearers of CTS4466 of course claimed decent from the Milesians.

It's clear that the Peninsula is a colony of SW Ireland rather than the other way round.

People from Gwynedd are supposed to have migrated to Scotland between the fall of Anglesey to the Romans (c 90AD?) to Rome leaving 350-400AD.

With Rome leaving Wales "Irish Pirates" (the Uí Liatháin) migrated to Gwynedd and the Lynn Peninsula causing Cunedda (a female line descendant of "Kings" in North West Gwynedd who migrated to Scotland, near Perthshire) to come a "drive them out"- although the "old" irish were allowed to stay - c350AD-450AD.

The Uí Liatháin incidentally being the same group that Connell Corc (CTS4466) left exile in Scotland (near Perthshire) to return to Munster to defeat to become King of Munster c350-420AD.

At least one historian also believes that Cunedda was male line CTS4466 (although he doesn't look into genetics) as he puts Cunedda being a descendant of Cian son of Oillil Ollium who is seen as the "father" of CTS4466

Not tpo mention that South Wales (Dyfed) was ruled by a dynasty that was Irish in the 5th century

I'm sure there are more too

IanFitzpatrick
06-21-2021, 12:08 PM
Along with the two FGC11134 samples per my previous post there are also two more that really show how even back then how people travelled and mixed more than anyone realizes in my opinion.

R-L21>DF13>FGC11134>FGC12055
and
R-L21>DF13>FGC11134>FGC12055>ZZ44_1>ZZ46_1>FGC11293

FGC12055 has been found in Scotland at this site

https://coveseacavesproject.wordpress.com/

This Haplogroup is a son of FGC11134.

FGC11293 was found here.

https://scienceinpoland.pap.pl/en/news/news%2C80395%2Cfour-warriors-buried-11th-century-tombs-pomerania-came-scandinavia-say-scientists

This Haplogroup is a Great Grandson of ZZ44.

These two discoveries add to the FGC11134 samples found in Fermanagh and Sligo.

I think it shows how the people 4000 years ago moved around much more then we ever thought and how the different cultures may have mixed as well. I expect we will see an increase in these types of discoveries in the coming years and expect the unexpected.

Murphy
08-14-2021, 09:44 PM
And in fact there is plenty of evidence of Irish involvement in Wales.

Ptolemy (150AD) has a map that is possibly based on a 350BCE map in which North Wales (Gwynedd) had the Gangani or Concani in the Lynn Peninsula, and the South West of Ireland also had this group.

For years historians thought the Concani came from Spain, around the same region that the Milesians where supposed to have come from due to similarities with the names of one of the tribes there. The forbearers of CTS4466 of course claimed decent from the Milesians.

It's clear that the Peninsula is a colony of SW Ireland rather than the other way round.

People from Gwynedd are supposed to have migrated to Scotland between the fall of Anglesey to the Romans (c 90AD?) to Rome leaving 350-400AD.

With Rome leaving Wales "Irish Pirates" (the Uí Liatháin) migrated to Gwynedd and the Lynn Peninsula causing Cunedda (a female line descendant of "Kings" in North West Gwynedd who migrated to Scotland, near Perthshire) to come a "drive them out"- although the "old" irish were allowed to stay - c350AD-450AD.

The Uí Liatháin incidentally being the same group that Connell Corc (CTS4466) left exile in Scotland (near Perthshire) to return to Munster to defeat to become King of Munster c350-420AD.

At least one historian also believes that Cunedda was male line CTS4466 (although he doesn't look into genetics) as he puts Cunedda being a descendant of Cian son of Oillil Ollium who is seen as the "father" of CTS4466

Not tpo mention that South Wales (Dyfed) was ruled by a dynasty that was Irish in the 5th century

I'm sure there are more too

Thank you for sharing that information! I believe I have seen the story before, but before getting into genealogy and DNA testing. It certainly seems to be the case that these groups not closely related, but in collaboration with eachother, the Uí Liatháin, Desí, and the Laigin each have left their signatures within the Welsh, Scottish, Manx, and English populations and more.
I've noticed a Welsh Merrick/Myrick and Caddell Blake family that share some SNPs downstream of R-Z255. Interestingly enough these families ended up returning to Ireland as strangers centuries later. The more I've been seeing this pattern the more it becomes apparent that such events weren't incredibly uncommon. Same goes for the Ireland/Irelan family of Antrim that are also downstream of R-Z255.
I believe many of the Border reivers and some lowland Scots were certainly of Irish origin.
Would be interesting to see if any of that family ended up in Scotland during the famine. Just imagine. irishman from the Laigin has a family in the Borders, enters Ireland as strangers centuries later, returns to Scotland during the famine. Maybe returns to Ireland again. Hahaha. Makes for quite a story.

pmokeefe
08-14-2021, 10:03 PM
In this study the Irish (excluding Northern Ireland) cluster with Orkney while Wales clustered with the English and Scottish.

The Irish DNA Atlas: Revealing Fine-Scale Population Structure and History within Ireland (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5722868/)
46107
The clustering of individuals with Irish and British ancestry based solely on genetics. Shown are 30 clusters identified by fineStructure from 2,103 Irish and British individuals. The dendrogram (left) shows the tree of clusters inferred by fineStructure and the map (right) shows the geographic origin of 192 Atlas Irish individuals and 1,611 British individuals from the Peoples of the British Isles (PoBI) cohort, labelled according to fineStructure cluster membership. Individuals are placed at the average latitude and longitude of either their great-grandparental (Atlas) or grandparental (PoBI) birthplaces. Great Britain is separated into England, Scotland, and Wales. The island of Ireland is split into the four Provinces; Ulster, Connacht, Leinster, and Munster. The outline of Britain was sourced from Global Administrative Areas (2012). GADM database of Global Administrative Areas, version 2.0. www.gadm.org. The outline of Ireland was sourced from Open Street Map Ireland, Copyright OpenStreetMap Contributors, (https://www.openstreetmap.ie/) - data available under the Open Database Licence. The figure was plotted in the statistical software language R46, version 3.4.1, with various packages.