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Jon
10-23-2020, 06:53 PM
Hi Guys,

Calling all Irish history buffs...I'm trying to find out which kinship groups and/or tribes were dominant in Munster in the early medieval period (c. 500AD). Trying to brainstorm which groups might have been widespread according to some recent aDNA finds. Any ideas welcome!

pmokeefe
10-23-2020, 08:15 PM
This work has some references:
PHYLOGENETIC ALIGNMENTS WITH GENEALOGIES OF DESCENT FROM AILILL ÓLOM (https://mccarthydna.files.wordpress.com/2020/10/ailill-olom-progeny-alignment-2020-10-19.pdf)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ailill_Aulom

Coincidentally I just started a new thread on a somewhat related topic:
https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?22034-Origin-of-CTS4466-in-Wales

pmokeefe
10-23-2020, 09:13 PM
Ireland generally:

DNA vs Irish Annals (https://www.surnamedna.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/DNA-vs-Irish-Annals-2017.web_.pdf)
A summary of results to 2017 with examples from major surnames & haplogroups
by Brad Larkin

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_annals


https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/munster-irish/about/background

has a few references.

The Chief Irish Families of Munster (https://www.libraryireland.com/Pedigrees1/chief-irish-families-munster.php)

I haven't read it but I like the title:)

This is why it is unlawful for a man from the Eóganachta to kill a man from the Crecraige (https://www.vanhamel.nl/codecs/Shingurova_(Tatiana)_2019_12afo)”: The Origins and Status of the Crecraige in Medieval Ireland
Tatiana Vladimirovna Shingurova

FionnSneachta
10-24-2020, 01:06 PM
During the Early Middle Ages, most of the area was part of the Kingdom of Munster, ruled by the Eóganachta dynasty. Notable regional kingdoms and lordships of Early Medieval Munster were Iarmuman (West Munster), Osraige (Ossory), Uí Liatháin, Uí Fidgenti, Éile, Múscraige, Ciarraige Luachra, Corcu Duibne, Corcu Baiscinn, and Déisi Muman.

Here are the chief Munster families and associated surnames: https://www.libraryireland.com/Pedigrees1/chief-irish-families-munster.php

This a map of the different kingdoms of Ireland in the 1300s: https://static.cambridge.org/binary/version/id/urn:cambridge.org:id:binary:20180329133900540-0610:S0021937117002374:S0021937117002374_fig1t.jpe g
The colour-coding is related to the opposing Donn and and Ruadh factions in the O'Conor conflict. Of course at this stage, there are Norman families such as the Burkes. I don't know what clans would have preceded them in Munster.

This is a Wikipedia map from around 800 AD of the kingdoms of Ireland without borders: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d5/Ireland_early_peoples_and_politics.gif

Jon
10-24-2020, 01:25 PM
During the Early Middle Ages, most of the area was part of the Kingdom of Munster, ruled by the Eóganachta dynasty. Notable regional kingdoms and lordships of Early Medieval Munster were Iarmuman (West Munster), Osraige (Ossory), Uí Liatháin, Uí Fidgenti, Éile, Múscraige, Ciarraige Luachra, Corcu Duibne, Corcu Baiscinn, and Déisi Muman.

Here are the chief Munster families and associated surnames: https://www.libraryireland.com/Pedigrees1/chief-irish-families-munster.php

This a map of the different kingdoms of Ireland in the 1300s: https://static.cambridge.org/binary/version/id/urn:cambridge.org:id:binary:20180329133900540-0610:S0021937117002374:S0021937117002374_fig1t.jpe g
The colour-coding is related to the opposing Donn and and Ruadh factions in the O'Conor conflict. Of course at this stage, there are Norman families such as the Burkes. I don't know what clans would have preceded them in Munster.

This is a Wikipedia map from around 800 AD of the kingdoms of Ireland without borders: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d5/Ireland_early_peoples_and_politics.gif

Thank you! I heard that the Erainn were also down there at that time....? I'm thinking of specifically the L513 HG, also found in high numbers in Scotland, and in the north of Ireland/Northern Ireland. So I guess a group that unites those areas from back in early medieval times...

FionnSneachta
10-24-2020, 01:49 PM
Thank you! I heard that the Erainn were also down there at that time....? I'm thinking of specifically the L513 HG, also found in high numbers in Scotland, and in the north of Ireland/Northern Ireland. So I guess a group that unites those areas from back in early medieval times...

There are others more knowledgeable about this period of history than me. I'm not familiar with the L513 hapologroup and only have some knowledge of certain tribes around 500 AD before the introduction of surnames. Looking online this website gives some information on the Erainn which does have them in Munster and Leinster: http://what-when-how.com/medieval-ireland/erainn-medieval-ireland/


ERAINN (Medieval Ireland)
This is the name of one of the ancient peoples of Ireland. It is first attested in the Geography of Claudius Ptolemaeus of Alexandria (c. 150 a.d.) as Ivernioi. Ptolemy also records the "town" Ivernis, "the Fertile Place," from which is derived the name of the island, Ivernia, and the people, Ivernioi. Ptolemy’s Ivernioi inhabited the southwest of Ireland. According to the genealogists the Erainn are found in other parts of Ireland as well. Genealogical theory changed over time so the status of the Erainn and their relationships with other peoples evolved in accordance with the evolving political landscape. The main groups classed as Erainn were the Corcu Lofgde, in historical times located in southwest County Cork, the Muscraige of Cork and Tipperary, the Corcu Duibne of Kerry, the Corcu Baiscinn of west Clare, the Dal Riata of north Antrim, and the Dal Fiatach (Ulaid) of County Down. The genealogists considered the Erainn, the Laigin, and the Cruthin as being distinct races. In the historical period the Ulaid (Ulstermen) were the most prominent of the Erainn and they, together with the Laigin (Leinstermen), were regarded as "free races." By the eighth century the Eoganachta of Munster and the Connachta (in particular the Uf Neill) had come to dominate the island and they made up the third "free race," the Feni. In time the Erainn were brought within the circle of the Feni as a relative of "Mil."

It is clear that the Erainn had been politically important in the proto-historic period, although in the historical period many of them had been reduced to servile or politically subordinate status. In the saga literature the ancestor of many of the Erainn, Conaire, was depicted as the just and beneficent king of Tara. Lugaid mac Con of the Corcu Lofgde was said to have been king of Tara and was succeeded by Cormac mac Airt (ancestor of the Uf Neill). The Corcu Lofgde (Loigodewa, "the people of the Calf Goddess") were the most important of the Munster Erainn. Genealogical theory claimed that they shared power with the more recent Eoganachta. Early tradition suggests that the Osraige, a major people between Munster and Leinster, had been ruled by or were in alliance with the Corcu Lofgde. Indeed they may have been closely related. This association was disrupted during the sixth century, however, when the Eoganachta rose to dominate Munster with the help of the Uf Neill. It is likely that the Corcu Lofgde had been dominant in Munster, if not beyond the province, before the rise of the Eoganachta and for this reason had been given the status of most-exalted vassals of their new masters. By the twelfth century the Corcu Lofgde still retained an element of prestige when the core of their territory became the diocese of Ross. St. Ciaran of Saigir, patron of the Osraige, was one of their kin. Their lord during the later Middle Ages was O’Driscoll, whose wealth was based upon the sea, trading in wine with Gascony.

I don't know what later medieval surnames would be associated with them.

Jon
10-24-2020, 02:36 PM
OK thanks. I just checked out the wiki page for the Eogonachta, and there's a supposed link to the kings of the Picts. Always difficult to know how much of that ancient history is true, and how much convenient legend. But L513 is certainly showing significant frequency in Ireland and Scotland...and the ancient DNA in Munster makes it a lot more intriguing.

RobertCasey
10-24-2020, 02:46 PM
The two largest haplogroups that are primarily Irish are R-L226 and R-CTS4466.

https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/r-1b-cts4466-plus/about/background

https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/r-l226-project/about/background
(https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/r-l226-project/about/background)
L226 includes the descendants of the royal line of King Brian Boru and his ancestors and eventually was the first king to conquer/unite the entire island of Ireland. L226 originated from County Clare and is known as the Dal gCais tribe as well. This haplogroup originated around 500 AD and has around 1,200 Y37 or higher testers. Here is a chart of R-L226 (I am one of the admins of the L226 project):

http://www.rcasey.net/DNA/R_L226/Haplotrees/L226_Home.pdf#Page=71

R-L513 started around 1500 BC is dominated by Scottish and Northern Ireland - but many parts are Irish as well.

https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/r-l513/about/results
(https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/r-l513/about/results)

Jon
10-24-2020, 08:28 PM
The two largest haplogroups that are primarily Irish are R-L226 and R-CTS4466.

https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/r-1b-cts4466-plus/about/background

https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/r-l226-project/about/background
(https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/r-l226-project/about/background)
L226 includes the descendants of the royal line of King Brian Boru and his ancestors and eventually was the first king to conquer/unite the entire island of Ireland. L226 originated from County Clare and is known as the Dal gCais tribe as well. This haplogroup originated around 500 AD and has around 1,200 Y37 or higher testers. Here is a chart of R-L226 (I am one of the admins of the L226 project):

http://www.rcasey.net/DNA/R_L226/Haplotrees/L226_Home.pdf#Page=71

R-L513 started around 1500 BC is dominated by Scottish and Northern Ireland - but many parts are Irish as well.

https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/r-l513/about/results
(https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/r-l513/about/results)

Two skeletons have been found in Munster (140km apart), both the same downstream subclade of L513 (can't remember exactly which one). They were dated to c. 500AD. So I guess L513 has been down there (and looks widespread) since that point...

Jon
10-26-2020, 02:54 PM
Hi Guys - another quick question for the history experts (!): the two L513 remains were found at Ballybunion, Co Kerry, and Courtmacsherry, Co Cork. Both ancient Kingdom of Munster, but 140km apart. However, a look at the map reveals that these two locations are right on the coast...

Could there be any relevance to this? Does anyone know anything about coastal burial sites/practices in Ireland at that time (c. 4th-6th centuries AD)? I know that Sea Gods were worshipped in the Celtic world (Manannan Mac Lir seems to have been revered in Scotland as well as Ireland, and the Isle of Man). I'Ve looked online, but can't find much of use. If coastal burial was a 'thing', it might be a place to start in terms of who these people were...

alan
10-26-2020, 02:54 PM
Looking at the DNA patterns and surnames, I do get the impression that small groups of warriors (say 100 or so?), perhaps squeezed out from elsewhere would up sticks and offer services to kings elsewhere. In some cases this might have been aided by fosterage, marriage alliance etc. But either way, I think there were small groups of fighting men travelling fairly widely and settling here or there not as conquerors but to bolster existing kingdoms. They may have tended to be settled as buffers near territorial boundaries. I suspect there was a lot of that going on that is simply too smallscale and below the radar of both history and archaeology. These groups may have also been given false genealogies to integrate them locally by pretending they were descended somehow from (say a younger brother) a prestigious royal line. One suspicious example is in the McCarthy line where the Z16532 (formerly known as P314.2) line suddenly takes over from an older line. The line is suspected to have a deeper history further north, perhaps in Scotland and perhaps Wales. It has a very strange distribution in that other than the McCarthy group, it is scattered through a whole host of surnames down western and northern Ireland and into western Scotland. Its hard to interpret but I personally suspect its distribution looks seaborne. Possible moving about in the early 1st millenium AD and I suspect there is some Viking aspect to carrying it around too - possible captives.

JoeyP37
10-26-2020, 02:57 PM
My mtdna is from Munster in Ireland; I am descended of the Ryans of Tipperary and the O'Connors of Kerry.

alan
10-26-2020, 02:57 PM
Hi Guys - another quick question for the history experts (!): the two L513 remains were found at Ballybunion, Co Kerry, and Courtmacsherry, Co Cork. Both ancient Kingdom of Munster, but 140km apart. However, a look at the map reveals that these two locations are right on the coast...

Could there be any relevance to this? Does anyone know anything about coastal burial sites/practices in Ireland at that time (c. 4th-6th centuries AD)? I know that Sea Gods were worshipped in the Celtic world (Manannan Mac Lir seems to have been revered in Scotland as well as Ireland, and the Isle of Man). I'Ve looked online, but can't find much of use. If coastal burial was a 'thing', it might be a place to start in terms of who these people were...

Tribal units were so small then that I suspect only the part of the population who lived in territories near the coast would have buried on the coast.

alan
10-26-2020, 03:03 PM
I am confident that the whole tribal/clans thing c. 400AD-1100AD will eventually become clear from ancient DNA because unlike the 2000 years prior to that there are lots of burials and they are almost all inhumations. Sadly, the period 1600BC-400AD has very very few unburnt burials and what there is is largely in the final 2 or 3 centuries of that span so I dont think it will ever be possible to see in detail what happened in that span. It will largely always be comparing what was going on before 1600BC and what was going on in the Roman era and after.

J1 DYS388=13
10-26-2020, 04:43 PM
Hi Guys - another quick question for the history experts (!): the two L513 remains were found at Ballybunion, Co Kerry, and Courtmacsherry, Co Cork. Both ancient Kingdom of Munster, but 140km apart. However, a look at the map reveals that these two locations are right on the coast...

Could there be any relevance to this? Does anyone know anything about coastal burial sites/practices in Ireland at that time (c. 4th-6th centuries AD)? I know that Sea Gods were worshipped in the Celtic world (Manannan Mac Lir seems to have been revered in Scotland as well as Ireland, and the Isle of Man). I'Ve looked online, but can't find much of use. If coastal burial was a 'thing', it might be a place to start in terms of who these people were...

This is the source which should describe those two graves. I don't have a copy. https://books.google.co.uk/books/about/Breaking_Ground_Finding_Graves.html?id=3DAeyAEACAA J&redir_esc=y

pmokeefe
10-26-2020, 05:41 PM
This is the source which should describe those two graves. I don't have a copy. https://books.google.co.uk/books/about/Breaking_Ground_Finding_Graves.html?id=3DAeyAEACAA J&redir_esc=y
It looks like parts of that document are available here:
https://museum.academia.edu/Departments/Irish_Antiquities_Division/Documents?page=8
https://museum.academia.edu/Departments/Irish_Antiquities_Division/Documents?page=7

Jon
10-26-2020, 07:39 PM
Thanks for the thoughts guys.

Alan: funny you mention it - L513 has quite a coastal distribution wherever it's found. A lot in northern parts of Ireland; down in the south west (Munster); then in Scotland, a fair bit in the Hebrides, and the south west (Ayrshire/Galloway). It seems very western also.

Apart from the two Munster finds, L513 popped up in the recent Viking World study: one in a group burial in Dorset, I believe, the other in the Faroe Islands, in a churchyard. In both cases it was among other, non-L513 remains.

What you say about seafaring, 'wandering' groups makes a lot of sense. In Galloway, for example, it may have been part of the Gall Gaidheal, or in the north of Ireland Gallowglasses. A book has been written by Anthony Barrett in which he claims the L513 lineages were of the Gaulish Menapii tribe, who were famous seafarers. Would be amazing if this all lined up at some stage.

I think L513 is quite old; and it must have been in the Munster area from early on. The Erainn were said to possibly have come from Gaulish tribes - maybe L513 was mixed up in that lot.

I find this slow edging towards historical/genetic link-ups really exciting, I must say.

alan
10-29-2020, 12:47 AM
Thanks for the thoughts guys.

Alan: funny you mention it - L513 has quite a coastal distribution wherever it's found. A lot in northern parts of Ireland; down in the south west (Munster); then in Scotland, a fair bit in the Hebrides, and the south west (Ayrshire/Galloway). It seems very western also.

Apart from the two Munster finds, L513 popped up in the recent Viking World study: one in a group burial in Dorset, I believe, the other in the Faroe Islands, in a churchyard. In both cases it was among other, non-L513 remains.

What you say about seafaring, 'wandering' groups makes a lot of sense. In Galloway, for example, it may have been part of the Gall Gaidheal, or in the north of Ireland Gallowglasses. A book has been written by Anthony Barrett in which he claims the L513 lineages were of the Gaulish Menapii tribe, who were famous seafarers. Would be amazing if this all lined up at some stage.

I think L513 is quite old; and it must have been in the Munster area from early on. The Erainn were said to possibly have come from Gaulish tribes - maybe L513 was mixed up in that lot.

I find this slow edging towards historical/genetic link-ups really exciting, I must say.

Certainly there are lots of unburnt remains from 400-1100AD and beyond so that period seems very likely to be untangled eventually once enough testing is done. There are also a certain among of urburnt burials from 100AD-400AD although less common. So, there may be progress across the whole period parallel with the Romans and Anglo-Saxons in Britain.

CillKenny
11-02-2020, 10:23 PM
A good starting point is Francis J Byrnes - Irish Kings and High Kings.

The best source in terms of details I would say is The Great Book of Irish Genealogies by Dubhaltach Mac Firbisigh but that is quiet expensive but might be available in some libraries.

MikeWhalen
11-03-2020, 05:15 AM
the large Desie tribe was huge in Munster...my Faolaen's (whalen, phelan, ect) were describes as Princes of the Desei and the annals say a Whalen was the first Irish Chieftain to die trying to defend against the 1100's Norman Invasion that first landed at 'our' stronghold of Waterford

dont know if this helps but one more bit of info for you to check out if you like

Mike

Jon
11-03-2020, 02:18 PM
Wow...seems like the Desei were kind of outlier tribes - maybe a bit like the Gall Gaidheal of Scotland? I also notice the Attacotti are possible connected - another Hebridean tribe with a rather outcast background.

Trevlos21
12-28-2020, 07:53 PM
OK thanks. I just checked out the wiki page for the Eogonachta, and there's a supposed link to the kings of the Picts. Always difficult to know how much of that ancient history is true, and how much convenient legend. But L513 is certainly showing significant frequency in Ireland and Scotland...and the ancient DNA in Munster makes it a lot more intriguing.

I had a look into this when the "Pict King"-Munster thing came up in another thread.

From what I can gather...

The general idea/myth was that:
- Conall Corc (born around 340 CE) who founded the Eóganacht Locha Léin in Ireland. Thought to be the O'Moriartys.
- The Eóganacht was named after Conall’s grandfather Éogan Mór the son of Oilill Olum. Oilill Olum’s other son Cormac Cas was the ancestor of the Dál gCais (Brian Bouru), and his other son Cian founded the Ciannachta.
- Conall Corc went to Scotland, most likely between Angus & the Mearns leaving two sons behind who formed their own branches of the Eóganacht.
- The Eóganacht Maige Geirginn were a branch that (with a 200 year odd break) spawned Óengus son of Fergus (aka Angus or Onuist depending on the historian) around 730 CE as king of the Picts, and that the House of Óengus took the kingdom of Dál Riata as well.
- The House of Óengus reigned until about 840 CE when Vikings invaded… eventually Kenneth MacAlpin (likely a female line relative of the House of Óengus) came to power 2 or 3 years later and the House of Óengus died out in the male line.
- Alternatively the Viking invasion was defeated and Kenneth MacAlpin killed all the other potential candidates for the Pictish throne including the male line of the House of Óengus (aka “MacAlpin’s Treason”) and relocated powerful supporters of the previous Kings to the West of Scotland.
- The old feudal Earls (Mormaers) of Lennox claimed to be descended from the other one of Conall Corc’s sons left in Scotland. Clans MacAulay and MacFarlane claimed to be descendants of the Earls of Lennox.

The disputes to this seem to be (pre/sans DNA):
- Relativity late records for supposed decent from Munster. Eg Nothing from Corc until Óengus I arrives on the scene 200-300 years later.
- The Earls of Lennox and through Marriage to them the Stewarts would have found decent from an Irish Prince an attractive way of giving themselves a prestigious linage in keeping with their then actual position.
- Even if there were a line somewhere in Scotland from a Munster prince- and the Dail Rita were orginally in Munster before Ulster and then Scotland in some annals- then Corc likely never made it to Scotland anyway. I can’t find evidence of why he couldn’t, but it seems to have been what most historians of the last 50-100 years have thought.

DNA
- Nigel McCarthy has managed to map CTS4466 pretty much perfectly onto an adapted version of Oilill Olum’s tree as long as you accept that Cormac Cas wasn’t really his son.
- On his pre-2020 map, Nigel admitted that the Eóganacht Locha Léin families (2 different names with paper trails) actually come from 2 different branches of CTS4466 further down the Munster tree. So theoretically there are no known descendants of Conall Corc that we know of that perfectly fit the tree.
- Nigel has said that it could be out by a few generations, or that the tree could be slightly wrong as people on it are semi-mythical but might be literary remembrances of real people.
- The known descendants of the Earls of Lennox aren’t CTS4466
- Ytree’s “95% confidence interval” can be woefully wrong. The most obvious example would be S781 in the Stewart. It’s been thoroughly proved that S781 mutated in Sir John of Bonkyl (1246-1298). Yet Ytree, 6 years later, still has the mutation under S781 occurring with a 95% confidence interval between 170 BC and 490 CE. That’s a massive 756 years AFTER Ytree’s top estimate.


Problems (DNA wise)
Eóganacht seems to be CTS4466 and there are only 2 CTS4466 subcaludes of any note in Scotland:
1) MacAulay A151
-Would seem promising on the face of it. But it’s the MacAulays of the Outer Hebrides who don’t claim decent from the Earls of Lennox
- The name is from Old Norse and they thought were of Viking stock until DNA proved otherwise.
- The most popular recent suggestions have been that they were descendants of slaves, given that A151 is most common in other coastal former Viking areas.
- Ytree gives the 95% confidence interval of MacAulay A151 as between 588 CE and 1262 CE which would suggest it’s too late given the other non-MacAulay A151 samples and where they lie on the tree. Yfull doesn’t have a date for that yet

2) Various mainly “Occupation” surnames A212
- Testers and clans that the surnames are official septs of seem to cluster from Islay/Jura, across to Loch Lomond area and across to Stirling
- Area wise that ties in with the old territory of the Earls of Lennox, seat of the kingdom of Dail Rita, just south of Scone where MacAlpin’s Treason was supposed to have happen and just south of where Corc was supposed to have landed
- On the other hand McCarthy equated A212 in his 2020 to Cian son of Oilill Olum. Someone on the CTS4466 io board pointed out that there are stories of Cian’s descendants going north to avoid a famine and that legend has it that the Dal Riata spent time in Munster and went North with some of them. Someone else on the board showed that the two earliest branch split off’s of A212 were found one on Jura and one on Islay suggesting a possible start location in Scotland. They were the islands of the Cenél nÓengusa (Kin of Óengus) and long thought by historians to have a fabricated line tying them to the rest of the Dál Riata.
- The Ytree 95% confidence interval for A212 is 643 BCE to 141 CE. This would suggest that they were in Scotland way before Corc or the Dál Riata. If the Ytree is off, like in the Stewart case, then it’s well within the time scale. It would be more likely to be descendants of Corc based on Nigel’s Tree than A151 too, a lot less fiddling about required to make it work.

It seems that as far as House of Óengus, Munster origin king of the Picts goes one of the following must be the case:

- The Eogonachta were never CTS4466 in the first place, but just replaced/became massively predominant in Eogonachta name families in Munster

- Óengus was never Eogonachta thus his ydna could be any number of Scottish ones

- Óengus/Corc’s Scottish male line died out… or just hasn’t been tested yet

- A151 or A212 are the descendants of Corc either through the House of Óengus or the Earls of Lennox… or where the remanent of a distantly remembered royal family of Munster who went to Scotland – much earlier or much later than the Corc time frame- and got attached to the legend of Corc (whether he was real or not) at a later date.

Any other possibilities?

fridurich
01-03-2021, 03:33 AM
I had a look into this when the "Pict King"-Munster thing came up in another thread.

From what I can gather...

The general idea/myth was that:
- Conall Corc (born around 340 CE) who founded the Eóganacht Locha Léin in Ireland. Thought to be the O'Moriartys.
- The Eóganacht was named after Conall’s grandfather Éogan Mór the son of Oilill Olum. Oilill Olum’s other son Cormac Cas was the ancestor of the Dál gCais (Brian Bouru), and his other son Cian founded the Ciannachta.
- Conall Corc went to Scotland, most likely between Angus & the Mearns leaving two sons behind who formed their own branches of the Eóganacht.
- The Eóganacht Maige Geirginn were a branch that (with a 200 year odd break) spawned Óengus son of Fergus (aka Angus or Onuist depending on the historian) around 730 CE as king of the Picts, and that the House of Óengus took the kingdom of Dál Riata as well.
- The House of Óengus reigned until about 840 CE when Vikings invaded… eventually Kenneth MacAlpin (likely a female line relative of the House of Óengus) came to power 2 or 3 years later and the House of Óengus died out in the male line.
- Alternatively the Viking invasion was defeated and Kenneth MacAlpin killed all the other potential candidates for the Pictish throne including the male line of the House of Óengus (aka “MacAlpin’s Treason”) and relocated powerful supporters of the previous Kings to the West of Scotland.
- The old feudal Earls (Mormaers) of Lennox claimed to be descended from the other one of Conall Corc’s sons left in Scotland. Clans MacAulay and MacFarlane claimed to be descendants of the Earls of Lennox.

The disputes to this seem to be (pre/sans DNA):
- Relativity late records for supposed decent from Munster. Eg Nothing from Corc until Óengus I arrives on the scene 200-300 years later.
- The Earls of Lennox and through Marriage to them the Stewarts would have found decent from an Irish Prince an attractive way of giving themselves a prestigious linage in keeping with their then actual position.
- Even if there were a line somewhere in Scotland from a Munster prince- and the Dail Rita were orginally in Munster before Ulster and then Scotland in some annals- then Corc likely never made it to Scotland anyway. I can’t find evidence of why he couldn’t, but it seems to have been what most historians of the last 50-100 years have thought.

DNA
- Nigel McCarthy has managed to map CTS4466 pretty much perfectly onto an adapted version of Oilill Olum’s tree as long as you accept that Cormac Cas wasn’t really his son.
- On his pre-2020 map, Nigel admitted that the Eóganacht Locha Léin families (2 different names with paper trails) actually come from 2 different branches of CTS4466 further down the Munster tree. So theoretically there are no known descendants of Conall Corc that we know of that perfectly fit the tree.
- Nigel has said that it could be out by a few generations, or that the tree could be slightly wrong as people on it are semi-mythical but might be literary remembrances of real people.
- The known descendants of the Earls of Lennox aren’t CTS4466
- Ytree’s “95% confidence interval” can be woefully wrong. The most obvious example would be S781 in the Stewart. It’s been thoroughly proved that S781 mutated in Sir John of Bonkyl (1246-1298). Yet Ytree, 6 years later, still has the mutation under S781 occurring with a 95% confidence interval between 170 BC and 490 CE. That’s a massive 756 years AFTER Ytree’s top estimate.


Problems (DNA wise)
Eóganacht seems to be CTS4466 and there are only 2 CTS4466 subcaludes of any note in Scotland:
1) MacAulay A151
-Would seem promising on the face of it. But it’s the MacAulays of the Outer Hebrides who don’t claim decent from the Earls of Lennox
- The name is from Old Norse and they thought were of Viking stock until DNA proved otherwise.
- The most popular recent suggestions have been that they were descendants of slaves, given that A151 is most common in other coastal former Viking areas.
- Ytree gives the 95% confidence interval of MacAulay A151 as between 588 CE and 1262 CE which would suggest it’s too late given the other non-MacAulay A151 samples and where they lie on the tree. Yfull doesn’t have a date for that yet

2) Various mainly “Occupation” surnames A212
- Testers and clans that the surnames are official septs of seem to cluster from Islay/Jura, across to Loch Lomond area and across to Stirling
- Area wise that ties in with the old territory of the Earls of Lennox, seat of the kingdom of Dail Rita, just south of Scone where MacAlpin’s Treason was supposed to have happen and just south of where Corc was supposed to have landed
- On the other hand McCarthy equated A212 in his 2020 to Cian son of Oilill Olum. Someone on the CTS4466 io board pointed out that there are stories of Cian’s descendants going north to avoid a famine and that legend has it that the Dal Riata spent time in Munster and went North with some of them. Someone else on the board showed that the two earliest branch split off’s of A212 were found one on Jura and one on Islay suggesting a possible start location in Scotland. They were the islands of the Cenél nÓengusa (Kin of Óengus) and long thought by historians to have a fabricated line tying them to the rest of the Dál Riata.
- The Ytree 95% confidence interval for A212 is 643 BCE to 141 CE. This would suggest that they were in Scotland way before Corc or the Dál Riata. If the Ytree is off, like in the Stewart case, then it’s well within the time scale. It would be more likely to be descendants of Corc based on Nigel’s Tree than A151 too, a lot less fiddling about required to make it work.

It seems that as far as House of Óengus, Munster origin king of the Picts goes one of the following must be the case:

- The Eogonachta were never CTS4466 in the first place, but just replaced/became massively predominant in Eogonachta name families in Munster

- Óengus was never Eogonachta thus his ydna could be any number of Scottish ones

- Óengus/Corc’s Scottish male line died out… or just hasn’t been tested yet

- A151 or A212 are the descendants of Corc either through the House of Óengus or the Earls of Lennox… or where the remanent of a distantly remembered royal family of Munster who went to Scotland – much earlier or much later than the Corc time frame- and got attached to the legend of Corc (whether he was real or not) at a later date.

Any other possibilities?

What you said was very interesting! I don't want to hijack away from the main subject of this thread too long but, let us say the scenario is that the Scottish A151 MacAulays weren't descended from slaves of the Vikings. Does anyone have a reasonable idea when the MacAulays arrived in the Outer Hebrides? In this scenario, would it be likely the MacAulays would have come from Munster to the Outer Hebrides? It does seem like it is possible they could be the descendants of slaves of the Vikings. If that is the case maybe the Vikings took them from Munster to the Outer Hebrides anywhere from the 9th to the 11th Century A. D.?

Webb
01-04-2021, 03:28 PM
Ireland generally:

DNA vs Irish Annals (https://www.surnamedna.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/DNA-vs-Irish-Annals-2017.web_.pdf)
A summary of results to 2017 with examples from major surnames & haplogroups
by Brad Larkin

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_annals


https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/munster-irish/about/background

has a few references.

The Chief Irish Families of Munster (https://www.libraryireland.com/Pedigrees1/chief-irish-families-munster.php)

I haven't read it but I like the title:)

This is why it is unlawful for a man from the Eóganachta to kill a man from the Crecraige (https://www.vanhamel.nl/codecs/Shingurova_(Tatiana)_2019_12afo)”: The Origins and Status of the Crecraige in Medieval Ireland
Tatiana Vladimirovna Shingurova

Thanks for posting these!!! I was pleasantly surprised that Brad Larkin reported the two Irish DF27 clusters, particularly recognizing that 30% of the lineages in the O'Neill Surname Project are in the same clade of DF27, whereas M222 O'Neill is around 18%. Then the Bresal Breac cluster of DF27 which actually shares a great grandfather snp with the Southern O'Neill DF27 cluster. As far as the MacAuley group, the L21>DF13>A151>FGC29767 Lewis MacAuley's run around 20 kits using Ytree and the surname project which is just about the same number of kits as the DF27>ZZ12>Y17787 Antrim MacAuley's. None of the other MacAuley lineages are quite as large as these two in the surname project and Ytree, except for M222, but these kits are very scattered and do not seem to be in one cluster.