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Coldmountains
10-31-2020, 09:45 AM
Yfull uploaded some Srubnaya samples and analyzed their R1a clades, which unsurprisingly are mainly under under Z93.

More interesting here is that many if not most Srubnaya samples are under rare and basal Z93* clades with some, Z280*, Z2124 and Z2123. So many of the Srubnaya clades diverged earlier from most of the Scythian/Saka R1a clades than Indo-Aryan L657, which is like Scythian Z2124 clades also under Z94. None of the Srubnaya clades seems to be very common today and they are often spread over a very wide region. It seems their clades were mostly replaced by Saka/Cimmerians/Scythians from the east who brought Mongol_N-like admix and also more eastern Z94 and Z2124 clades. Some of the Srubnaya clades were likely still present among later Scythians/Sarmatians and because of that some Srubnaya clades seem to match modern day East Europeans and North Caucasians. Based on all this i would speculate, that Srubnaya belonged to an extinct branch of Indo-Iranians or at least to some kind of early diverged Para-Iranics.

MUR003
Muradym 8 Srubno-alakulskaya 1880 - 1685 BCE R1a-Z93>BY226207 https://www.yfull.com/live/tree/R-BY226207/ (closest matches modern day Italian and Saudi Arabian samples)

KZB002
Kazburun 1 Srubno-alakulskaya 1875 - 1665 BCE R1a-Z93>YP5585 https://www.yfull.com/live/tree/R-YP5585*/ (closest matches modern day Indian and British samples)

KZB007
Kazburun 1 Srubno-alakulskaya 1755 - 1630 BCE R-Z93>Z94>Z2124>Z2125>Z2123>Y934>BY30762 https://www.yfull.com/live/tree/R-BY30762/ (closest matches modern day East European and North Caucasian samples)

KZB008
Kazburun 1 Srubno-alakulskaya 1880 -1690 BCE R-Z283>Z282>Z280* https://www.yfull.com/live/tree/R-Z280*/

KZB005 is based on his BAM files also under R1a-Z280* but i could not find him on Yfull yet. He is the brother of KZB008 so he will be under the same clade.

KZB005
kzb005 Kazburun 1 Srubno-alakulskaya 1880 - 1690 BCE

Coldmountains
10-31-2020, 05:09 PM
Other Srubnaya samples from another study which were not yet uploaded on Yfull.

I0232
I0232 Novoselki, Samara 1850-1200 BCE R-Z93>FGC82884>YP1506 Here analyzed: https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?20521-Y-Chromosome-Haplogroup-assignments-for-2500-ancient-samples/page3 https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-YP1506/ (closest matches modern day samples from Pakistan and the Altai region)

I0430
I0430 Spiridonovka II, Samara 1850-1600 BCE R-Z93>Z94>Z2124>Z2125>Z2123 Here analyzed: https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?20521-Y-Chromosome-Haplogroup-assignments-for-2500-ancient-samples/page3 Yfull: https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Z2123/

I0361
I0361 Spiridonovka II, Samara 1850-1600 BCE R-Z93>Z94>Z2124 Here analyzed: https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?20521-Y-Chromosome-Haplogroup-assignments-for-2500-ancient-samples/page3 Yfull:https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Z2124/

I0423
I0423 Barinovka I, Samara 1850-1200 BCE R-Z93 Here analyzed: https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?20521-Y-Chromosome-Haplogroup-assignments-for-2500-ancient-samples/page3 Yfull: https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Z93/

I0424
I0424 Barinovka I, Samara 1850-1200 BCE R-Z93 Here analyzed: https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?20521-Y-Chromosome-Haplogroup-assignments-for-2500-ancient-samples/page3 Yfull:https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Z93/

I0360
I0360 Spiridonovka IV, Samara 2050-1650 BCE R1a-M417 Here analyzed: https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?20521-Y-Chromosome-Haplogroup-assignments-for-2500-ancient-samples/page3 Yfull:https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-M417/

altvred
03-21-2021, 01:00 PM
MUR003
Muradym 8 Srubno-alakulskaya 1880 - 1685 BCE R1a-Z93>BY226207 https://www.yfull.com/live/tree/R-BY226207/ (closest matches modern day Italian and Saudi Arabian samples)



7 Tajik/Pamiri and one Kyrgyz from the GSA have been uploaded to Yfull and are BY226207+

https://i.imgur.com/cDYZOCW.png

Most likely they are going to split the subclade along with the Italian sample into R-BY226207* and R-Y111548, the Saudi kit and MUR003 are negative for Y111548 so they will remain upstream in the branch.

https://i.imgur.com/Ky1gLYc.png

https://www.yfull.com/live/tree/R-BY226207/

btmacdowell
03-21-2021, 02:22 PM
These must also be part of the same batch of additions...

43950

altvred
03-21-2021, 03:26 PM
Most of the samples with the initials WGC/SAMC come from these studies:

https://bigd.big.ac.cn/bioproject/browse/PRJCA000458
https://bigd.big.ac.cn/bioproject/browse/PRJCA000456
https://bigd.big.ac.cn/bioproject/browse/PRJCA000278
https://bigd.big.ac.cn/bioproject/browse/PRJCA000457

A few of the Kyrgyz samples aren't downstream of Z94 and instead belong to the parallel FGC82884 branch.

https://i.imgur.com/8my3JW8.png

https://i.imgur.com/5A5Toxn.png

https://i.imgur.com/P3U8M3h.png

Unsurprisingly, the dominant lineage among the Kyrgyz is R-S23592 quite commonly found in the ancient DNA of Nomads roaming that area.

https://i.imgur.com/e07Ld2G.png

Coldmountains
03-23-2021, 09:28 AM
7 Tajik/Pamiri and one Kyrgyz from the GSA have been uploaded to Yfull and are BY226207+

https://i.imgur.com/cDYZOCW.png

Most likely they are going to split the subclade along with the Italian sample into R-BY226207* and R-Y111548, the Saudi kit and MUR003 are negative for Y111548 so they will remain upstream in the branch.

https://i.imgur.com/Ky1gLYc.png

https://www.yfull.com/live/tree/R-BY226207/


That is pretty cool stuff and probably there are still some undetected basal Z93* branches with relatively many descendants in Afghanistan, Iran, Tajikistan and India. Maybe these Tajiks are related to Kashkarchi_BA Z93+ Z94- but i don't know their BY226207 status. Also i really hope YFull can find out more about the basal Fatyanovo Z93* samples. Also shows that Z94+ Indo-Iranians represented probably a small part of Z93+ diversity in Fatyanovo and Proto-Indo-Iranian Abashevo was still rich in basal Z93+ I think but with a lot of Z94+ already.

altvred
03-23-2021, 12:57 PM
That is pretty cool stuff and probably there are still some undetected basal Z93* branches with relatively many descendants in Afghanistan, Iran, Tajikistan and India. Maybe these Tajiks are related to Kashkarchi_BA Z93+ Z94- but i don't know their BY226207 status. Also i really hope YFull can find out more about the basal Fatyanovo Z93* samples. Also shows that Z94+ Indo-Iranians represented probably a small part of Z93+ diversity in Fatyanovo and Proto-Indo-Iranian Abashevo was still rich in basal Z93+ I think but with a lot of Z94+ already.

I have checked the two BA samples from Ferghana but could not get beyond Z93*; they do not have coverage for BY226207 and the downstream new markers.

Unfortunately, many of the SNPs added to the Yfull tree the last couple of years are not covered by the 1240k array of the Reich lab.

Anyway, it does make sense that the further south the Indo-Iranians or maybe by that time the Indo-Aryans, migrated we see a decrease of diversity in the patrilineal markers.

If central Asian countries were represented on Yfull/FTDNA on a comparable level to the West/Middle-East, we would probably see a North to south gradient, the countries closer to the steppe having a higher share of Z93+ Z94- subclades.

This is pure speculation on my part, but I am willing to bet that this represents the earliest split of Indo-Iranian, a diverging branch that left no historical or modern linguistic legacy and got absorbed later by the expanding Scythians from the east (Srubnaya fits the bill).

Alain
03-23-2021, 01:13 PM
Other Srubnaya samples from another study which were not yet uploaded on Yfull.

I0232
I0232 Novoselki, Samara 1850-1200 BCE R-Z93>FGC82884>YP1506 Here analyzed: https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?20521-Y-Chromosome-Haplogroup-assignments-for-2500-ancient-samples/page3 https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-YP1506/ (closest matches modern day samples from Pakistan and the Altai region)

I0430
I0430 Spiridonovka II, Samara 1850-1600 BCE R-Z93>Z94>Z2124>Z2125>Z2123 Here analyzed: https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?20521-Y-Chromosome-Haplogroup-assignments-for-2500-ancient-samples/page3 Yfull: https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Z2123/

I0361
I0361 Spiridonovka II, Samara 1850-1600 BCE R-Z93>Z94>Z2124 Here analyzed: https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?20521-Y-Chromosome-Haplogroup-assignments-for-2500-ancient-samples/page3 Yfull:https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Z2124/

I0423
I0423 Barinovka I, Samara 1850-1200 BCE R-Z93 Here analyzed: https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?20521-Y-Chromosome-Haplogroup-assignments-for-2500-ancient-samples/page3 Yfull: https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Z93/

I0424
I0424 Barinovka I, Samara 1850-1200 BCE R-Z93 Here analyzed: https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?20521-Y-Chromosome-Haplogroup-assignments-for-2500-ancient-samples/page3 Yfull:https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Z93/

I0360
I0360 Spiridonovka IV, Samara 2050-1650 BCE R1a-M417 Here analyzed: https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?20521-Y-Chromosome-Haplogroup-assignments-for-2500-ancient-samples/page3 Yfull:https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-M417/

Does the R1a-M417 sample 10360 fall under R-CTS4385, that would be interesting?

RCO
03-23-2021, 01:25 PM
Sorry to ask but "Srubnaya" is just an opinion. They can have completely different origins and they were never there. We need more results.

Coldmountains
03-23-2021, 01:33 PM
I have checked the two BA samples from Ferghana but could not get beyond Z93*; they do not have coverage for BY226207 and the downstream new markers.

Unfortunately, many of the SNPs added to the Yfull tree the last couple of years are not covered by the 1240k array of the Reich lab.

Anyway, it does make sense that the further south the Indo-Iranians or maybe by that time the Indo-Aryans, migrated we see a decrease of diversity in the patrilineal markers.

If central Asian countries were represented on Yfull/FTDNA on a comparable level to the West/Middle-East, we would probably see a North to south gradient, the countries closer to the steppe having a higher share of Z93+ Z94- subclades.

This is pure speculation on my part, but I am willing to bet that this represents the earliest split of Indo-Iranian, a diverging branch that left no historical or modern linguistic legacy and got absorbed later by the expanding Scythians from the east (Srubnaya fits the bill).

Z93* and the Z94- clades are probably older than 3000 B.C so likely formed long before the split and formation of Indo-Iranians. It is likely that Proto-Indo-Iranians, Proto-Indo-Aryans and Proto-Iranics already carried Z94- and even basal R1a from PII. Because of that R1a-Z93- is found in (South) India too which likely derives almost all of their R1a from early Indo-Aryans

altvred
03-23-2021, 09:09 PM
Z93* and the Z94- clades are probably older than 3000 B.C so likely formed long before the split and formation of Indo-Iranians. It is likely that Proto-Indo-Iranians, Proto-Indo-Aryans and Proto-Iranics already carried Z94- and even basal R1a from PII. Because of that R1a-Z93- is found in (South) India too which likely derives almost all of their R1a from early Indo-Aryans

We now even have clearly Iranian subclades of Z282 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y17491/), combine that with the I2's in the Swat valley, and it looks like it wasn't just Z93 the Indo-Iranians were leaving in their wake.

A bit off-topic, but I was going over old files on my PC and found the 23andMe kits I made out of the published 'Sarmatian Huns' from the Mongolia paper - including one for NAI002 that was Z283+. I ran the kits through Harappaworld, and unsurprisingly they look like Pamiris with Siberian admixture.


NAI001
Components %
S-Indian 2.99
Baloch 27.03
Caucasian 17.14
NE-Euro 24.66
SE-Asian 1.91
Siberian 8.84
NE-Asian 5.38
Papuan 0.69
American 1.93
Beringian 2.67
Mediterranean 5.59
SW-Asian 0.30
San 0.00
E-African 0.31
Pygmy 0.00
W-African 0.57



Mixed Mode:
1 74.61% tajik + 25.39% chuvash @ 3.894
2 80.86% tajik + 19.14% russian2 @ 5.207
3 79.30% tajik + 20.70% mordovian @ 5.266
4 87.11% pamiri-rushan + 12.89% yukaghir @ 5.806
5 84.77% pamiri-rushan + 15.23% altaian @ 5.925
6 83.98% tajik + 16.02% lithuanian @ 5.970
7 81.64% tajik + 18.36% russian1 @ 5.982
8 86.33% pamiri-rushan + 13.67% selkup @ 6.073
9 85.55% tajik + 14.45% finnish @ 6.076
10 82.42% pamiri-rushan + 17.58% kazakh @ 6.101

Least-squares method.

Using 1 populations approximation
1 100% pamiri-rushan @ 10.115
2 100% pamiri-shughnan @ 11.108
3 100% tajik @ 12.225
4 100% yaghnobi @ 12.694
5 100% pamiri-ishkashim @ 14.629
6 100% pamiri-wakhi @ 16.711
7 100% tajik-nw-afghanistan @ 18.513
8 100% turkmen-afghanistan @ 18.626
9 100% uzbek-afghanistan @ 18.678
10 100% pashtun-n-afghanistan @ 20.180

Using 2 populations approximation
1 50% pamiri-rushan + 50% turkmen-afghanistan @ 9.241
2 50% pamiri-rushan + 50% uzbek @ 10.090
3 50% pamiri-rushan + 50% pamiri-rushan @ 10.115
4 50% pamiri-rushan + 50% tajik @ 10.266
5 50% baloch-iran + 50% chuvash @ 10.430
6 50% pamiri-rushan + 50% pamiri-shughnan @ 10.501
7 50% pamiri-shughnan + 50% turkmen-afghanistan @ 10.568
8 50% iranian-mashhad + 50% chuvash @ 10.584
9 50% pamiri-rushan + 50% yaghnobi @ 10.645
10 50% iranian-bandari + 50% chuvash @ 10.658

Using 3 populations approximation
1 33% tajik + 33% tajik + 33% chuvash @ 5.307
2 33% pamiri-shughnan + 33% tajik + 33% chuvash @ 6.739
3 33% tajik + 33% yaghnobi + 33% chuvash @ 7.137
4 33% pamiri-rushan + 33% pamiri-rushan + 33% uzbek @ 7.505
5 33% turkmen + 33% kho + 33% chuvash @ 7.613
6 33% pamiri-rushan + 33% pamiri-rushan + 33% turkmen-afghanistan @ 7.753
7 33% pamiri-rushan + 33% pamiri-shughnan + 33% uzbek @ 8.321
8 33% tajik + 33% tajik + 33% mordovian @ 8.522
9 33% pamiri-rushan + 33% pamiri-shughnan + 33% turkmen-afghanistan @ 8.543
10 33% pashtun-n-afghanistan + 33% tajik-herat + 33% chuvash @ 8.561

Using 4 populations approximation
1 25% tajik + 25% tajik + 25% tajik + 25% chuvash @ 3.899
2 25% tajik + 25% tajik + 25% yaghnobi + 25% chuvash @ 4.706
3 25% pamiri-shughnan + 25% pamiri-shughnan + 25% tajik + 25% chuvash @ 5.599
4 25% tajik + 25% tajik + 25% tajik + 25% mordovian @ 5.733
5 25% tajik + 25% tajik + 25% tajik + 25% russian2 @ 6.119
6 25% tajik + 25% tajik + 25% tajik + 25% ukranian @ 6.756
7 25% pamiri-rushan + 25% pamiri-rushan + 25% pamiri-rushan + 25% kazakh @ 6.946
8 25% pamiri-shughnan + 25% pamiri-shughnan + 25% pamiri-shughnan + 25% chuvash @ 7.027
9 25% tajik + 25% tajik + 25% tajik + 25% russian1 @ 7.039
10 25% pamiri-rushan + 25% pamiri-rushan + 25% pamiri-rushan + 25% uzbek @ 7.120





NAI002

Components %
S-Indian 4.41
Baloch 19.10
Caucasian 15.55
NE-Euro 26.31
SE-Asian 0.00
Siberian 16.63
NE-Asian 4.54
Papuan 0.42
American 2.68
Beringian 4.17
Mediterranean 4.73
SW-Asian 0.42
San 0.00
E-African 0.00
Pygmy 0.00
W-African 1.05




Mixed Mode:
1 55.08% tajik-nw-afghanistan + 44.92% chuvash @ 6.851
2 66.80% yaghnobi + 33.20% selkup @ 7.016
3 62.11% turkmen-afghanistan + 37.89% chuvash @ 7.149
4 70.70% pamiri-rushan + 29.30% yukaghir @ 7.152
5 68.36% pamiri-rushan + 31.64% selkup @ 7.242
6 55.08% uzbek-afghanistan + 44.92% chuvash @ 7.302
7 50.39% chuvash + 49.61% tajik-nw-afghanistan @ 7.378
8 50.39% chuvash + 49.61% uzbek-afghanistan @ 7.769
9 68.36% pamiri-shughnan + 31.64% selkup @ 7.933
10 71.48% pamiri-rushan + 28.52% ket @ 7.934

Least-squares method.

Using 1 populations approximation
1 100% turkmen-afghanistan @ 17.844
2 100% pamiri-rushan @ 19.811
3 100% pamiri-shughnan @ 20.009
4 100% uzbek @ 20.474
5 100% tajik @ 21.098
6 100% yaghnobi @ 21.283
7 100% tajik-nw-afghanistan @ 22.883
8 100% pamiri-ishkashim @ 23.049
9 100% uzbek-afghanistan @ 23.073
10 100% pamiri-wakhi @ 23.816

Using 2 populations approximation
1 50% tajik-nw-afghanistan + 50% chuvash @ 7.310
2 50% uzbek-afghanistan + 50% chuvash @ 7.706
3 50% turkmen + 50% chuvash @ 8.267
4 50% turkmen-afghanistan + 50% chuvash @ 8.871
5 50% tajik-herat + 50% chuvash @ 9.047
6 50% tajik + 50% chuvash @ 9.451
7 50% pashtun-n-afghanistan + 50% chuvash @ 10.100
8 50% chuvash + 50% qizilbash1 @ 10.328
9 50% chuvash + 50% iranian-yazd @ 11.071
10 50% chuvash + 50% iranian-mashhad @ 11.127

Using 3 populations approximation
1 33% turkmen-afghanistan + 33% pamiri-rushan + 33% chuvash @ 6.479
2 33% pamiri-shughnan + 33% uzbek + 33% chuvash @ 6.639
3 33% bulgarian + 33% dameli + 33% selkup @ 6.741
4 33% yaghnobi + 33% yaghnobi + 33% selkup @ 7.016
5 33% uzbek + 33% tajik + 33% chuvash @ 7.082
6 33% pamiri-rushan + 33% pamiri-rushan + 33% selkup @ 7.328
7 33% turkmen-afghanistan + 33% turkmen-afghanistan + 33% chuvash @ 7.409
8 33% bulgarian + 33% dameli + 33% ket @ 7.450
9 33% pashtun-uthmankhel + 33% romanian-a + 33% selkup @ 7.553
10 33% pamiri-rushan + 33% pamiri-shughnan + 33% selkup @ 7.602

Using 4 populations approximation
1 25% turkmen-afghanistan + 25% turkmen-afghanistan + 25% pamiri-rushan + 25% chuvash @ 6.666
2 25% pashtun-n-afghanistan + 25% pashtun-n-afghanistan + 25% chuvash + 25% selkup @ 6.836
3 25% pashtun-n-afghanistan + 25% pashtun-n-afghanistan + 25% chuvash + 25% yukaghir @ 6.850
4 25% pashtun-n-afghanistan + 25% pashtun-n-afghanistan + 25% chuvash + 25% ket @ 7.507
5 25% pamiri-rushan + 25% pamiri-rushan + 25% pamiri-rushan + 25% yukaghir @ 7.625
6 25% pamiri-shughnan + 25% pamiri-shughnan + 25% uzbek + 25% selkup @ 7.936
7 25% pamiri-rushan + 25% pamiri-rushan + 25% pamiri-shughnan + 25% yukaghir @ 7.992
8 25% pamiri-shughnan + 25% pamiri-shughnan + 25% uzbek + 25% chuvash @ 8.063
9 25% pamiri-wakhi + 25% pamiri-wakhi + 25% nogai + 25% selkup @ 8.119
10 25% pamiri-rushan + 25% pamiri-rushan + 25% pamiri-rushan + 25% selkup @ 8.160

CopperAxe
03-23-2021, 09:23 PM
We now even have clearly Iranian subclades of Z282 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y17491/), combine that with the I2's in the Swat valley, and it looks like it wasn't just Z93 the Indo-Iranians were leaving in their wake.

A bit off-topic, but I was going over old files on my PC and found the 23andMe kits I made out of the published 'Sarmatian Huns' from the Mongolia paper - including one for NAI002 that was Z283+. I ran the kits through Harappaworld, and unsurprisingly they look like Pamiris with Siberian admixture.


NAI001
Components %
S-Indian 2.99
Baloch 27.03
Caucasian 17.14
NE-Euro 24.66
SE-Asian 1.91
Siberian 8.84
NE-Asian 5.38
Papuan 0.69
American 1.93
Beringian 2.67
Mediterranean 5.59
SW-Asian 0.30
San 0.00
E-African 0.31
Pygmy 0.00
W-African 0.57



Mixed Mode:
1 74.61% tajik + 25.39% chuvash @ 3.894
2 80.86% tajik + 19.14% russian2 @ 5.207
3 79.30% tajik + 20.70% mordovian @ 5.266
4 87.11% pamiri-rushan + 12.89% yukaghir @ 5.806
5 84.77% pamiri-rushan + 15.23% altaian @ 5.925
6 83.98% tajik + 16.02% lithuanian @ 5.970
7 81.64% tajik + 18.36% russian1 @ 5.982
8 86.33% pamiri-rushan + 13.67% selkup @ 6.073
9 85.55% tajik + 14.45% finnish @ 6.076
10 82.42% pamiri-rushan + 17.58% kazakh @ 6.101

Least-squares method.

Using 1 populations approximation
1 100% pamiri-rushan @ 10.115
2 100% pamiri-shughnan @ 11.108
3 100% tajik @ 12.225
4 100% yaghnobi @ 12.694
5 100% pamiri-ishkashim @ 14.629
6 100% pamiri-wakhi @ 16.711
7 100% tajik-nw-afghanistan @ 18.513
8 100% turkmen-afghanistan @ 18.626
9 100% uzbek-afghanistan @ 18.678
10 100% pashtun-n-afghanistan @ 20.180

Using 2 populations approximation
1 50% pamiri-rushan + 50% turkmen-afghanistan @ 9.241
2 50% pamiri-rushan + 50% uzbek @ 10.090
3 50% pamiri-rushan + 50% pamiri-rushan @ 10.115
4 50% pamiri-rushan + 50% tajik @ 10.266
5 50% baloch-iran + 50% chuvash @ 10.430
6 50% pamiri-rushan + 50% pamiri-shughnan @ 10.501
7 50% pamiri-shughnan + 50% turkmen-afghanistan @ 10.568
8 50% iranian-mashhad + 50% chuvash @ 10.584
9 50% pamiri-rushan + 50% yaghnobi @ 10.645
10 50% iranian-bandari + 50% chuvash @ 10.658

Using 3 populations approximation
1 33% tajik + 33% tajik + 33% chuvash @ 5.307
2 33% pamiri-shughnan + 33% tajik + 33% chuvash @ 6.739
3 33% tajik + 33% yaghnobi + 33% chuvash @ 7.137
4 33% pamiri-rushan + 33% pamiri-rushan + 33% uzbek @ 7.505
5 33% turkmen + 33% kho + 33% chuvash @ 7.613
6 33% pamiri-rushan + 33% pamiri-rushan + 33% turkmen-afghanistan @ 7.753
7 33% pamiri-rushan + 33% pamiri-shughnan + 33% uzbek @ 8.321
8 33% tajik + 33% tajik + 33% mordovian @ 8.522
9 33% pamiri-rushan + 33% pamiri-shughnan + 33% turkmen-afghanistan @ 8.543
10 33% pashtun-n-afghanistan + 33% tajik-herat + 33% chuvash @ 8.561

Using 4 populations approximation
1 25% tajik + 25% tajik + 25% tajik + 25% chuvash @ 3.899
2 25% tajik + 25% tajik + 25% yaghnobi + 25% chuvash @ 4.706
3 25% pamiri-shughnan + 25% pamiri-shughnan + 25% tajik + 25% chuvash @ 5.599
4 25% tajik + 25% tajik + 25% tajik + 25% mordovian @ 5.733
5 25% tajik + 25% tajik + 25% tajik + 25% russian2 @ 6.119
6 25% tajik + 25% tajik + 25% tajik + 25% ukranian @ 6.756
7 25% pamiri-rushan + 25% pamiri-rushan + 25% pamiri-rushan + 25% kazakh @ 6.946
8 25% pamiri-shughnan + 25% pamiri-shughnan + 25% pamiri-shughnan + 25% chuvash @ 7.027
9 25% tajik + 25% tajik + 25% tajik + 25% russian1 @ 7.039
10 25% pamiri-rushan + 25% pamiri-rushan + 25% pamiri-rushan + 25% uzbek @ 7.120





NAI002

Components %
S-Indian 4.41
Baloch 19.10
Caucasian 15.55
NE-Euro 26.31
SE-Asian 0.00
Siberian 16.63
NE-Asian 4.54
Papuan 0.42
American 2.68
Beringian 4.17
Mediterranean 4.73
SW-Asian 0.42
San 0.00
E-African 0.00
Pygmy 0.00
W-African 1.05




Mixed Mode:
1 55.08% tajik-nw-afghanistan + 44.92% chuvash @ 6.851
2 66.80% yaghnobi + 33.20% selkup @ 7.016
3 62.11% turkmen-afghanistan + 37.89% chuvash @ 7.149
4 70.70% pamiri-rushan + 29.30% yukaghir @ 7.152
5 68.36% pamiri-rushan + 31.64% selkup @ 7.242
6 55.08% uzbek-afghanistan + 44.92% chuvash @ 7.302
7 50.39% chuvash + 49.61% tajik-nw-afghanistan @ 7.378
8 50.39% chuvash + 49.61% uzbek-afghanistan @ 7.769
9 68.36% pamiri-shughnan + 31.64% selkup @ 7.933
10 71.48% pamiri-rushan + 28.52% ket @ 7.934

Least-squares method.

Using 1 populations approximation
1 100% turkmen-afghanistan @ 17.844
2 100% pamiri-rushan @ 19.811
3 100% pamiri-shughnan @ 20.009
4 100% uzbek @ 20.474
5 100% tajik @ 21.098
6 100% yaghnobi @ 21.283
7 100% tajik-nw-afghanistan @ 22.883
8 100% pamiri-ishkashim @ 23.049
9 100% uzbek-afghanistan @ 23.073
10 100% pamiri-wakhi @ 23.816

Using 2 populations approximation
1 50% tajik-nw-afghanistan + 50% chuvash @ 7.310
2 50% uzbek-afghanistan + 50% chuvash @ 7.706
3 50% turkmen + 50% chuvash @ 8.267
4 50% turkmen-afghanistan + 50% chuvash @ 8.871
5 50% tajik-herat + 50% chuvash @ 9.047
6 50% tajik + 50% chuvash @ 9.451
7 50% pashtun-n-afghanistan + 50% chuvash @ 10.100
8 50% chuvash + 50% qizilbash1 @ 10.328
9 50% chuvash + 50% iranian-yazd @ 11.071
10 50% chuvash + 50% iranian-mashhad @ 11.127

Using 3 populations approximation
1 33% turkmen-afghanistan + 33% pamiri-rushan + 33% chuvash @ 6.479
2 33% pamiri-shughnan + 33% uzbek + 33% chuvash @ 6.639
3 33% bulgarian + 33% dameli + 33% selkup @ 6.741
4 33% yaghnobi + 33% yaghnobi + 33% selkup @ 7.016
5 33% uzbek + 33% tajik + 33% chuvash @ 7.082
6 33% pamiri-rushan + 33% pamiri-rushan + 33% selkup @ 7.328
7 33% turkmen-afghanistan + 33% turkmen-afghanistan + 33% chuvash @ 7.409
8 33% bulgarian + 33% dameli + 33% ket @ 7.450
9 33% pashtun-uthmankhel + 33% romanian-a + 33% selkup @ 7.553
10 33% pamiri-rushan + 33% pamiri-shughnan + 33% selkup @ 7.602

Using 4 populations approximation
1 25% turkmen-afghanistan + 25% turkmen-afghanistan + 25% pamiri-rushan + 25% chuvash @ 6.666
2 25% pashtun-n-afghanistan + 25% pashtun-n-afghanistan + 25% chuvash + 25% selkup @ 6.836
3 25% pashtun-n-afghanistan + 25% pashtun-n-afghanistan + 25% chuvash + 25% yukaghir @ 6.850
4 25% pashtun-n-afghanistan + 25% pashtun-n-afghanistan + 25% chuvash + 25% ket @ 7.507
5 25% pamiri-rushan + 25% pamiri-rushan + 25% pamiri-rushan + 25% yukaghir @ 7.625
6 25% pamiri-shughnan + 25% pamiri-shughnan + 25% uzbek + 25% selkup @ 7.936
7 25% pamiri-rushan + 25% pamiri-rushan + 25% pamiri-shughnan + 25% yukaghir @ 7.992
8 25% pamiri-shughnan + 25% pamiri-shughnan + 25% uzbek + 25% chuvash @ 8.063
9 25% pamiri-wakhi + 25% pamiri-wakhi + 25% nogai + 25% selkup @ 8.119
10 25% pamiri-rushan + 25% pamiri-rushan + 25% pamiri-rushan + 25% selkup @ 8.160




Nearly all the Xiongnu Sarmatians have like 70-80% Sogdian related ancestry. Naming that cluster Sarmatians was just very silly.

The Xiongnu had a long-lasting and well documented alliance with the Kangju state, how did they miss that obvious connection?

pegasus
03-23-2021, 10:05 PM
We now even have clearly Iranian subclades of Z282 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y17491/), combine that with the I2's in the Swat valley, and it looks like it wasn't just Z93 the Indo-Iranians were leaving in their wake.

A bit off-topic, but I was going over old files on my PC and found the 23andMe kits I made out of the published 'Sarmatian Huns' from the Mongolia paper - including one for NAI002 that was Z283+. I ran the kits through Harappaworld, and unsurprisingly they look like Pamiris with Siberian admixture.


NAI001
Components %
S-Indian 2.99
Baloch 27.03
Caucasian 17.14
NE-Euro 24.66
SE-Asian 1.91
Siberian 8.84
NE-Asian 5.38
Papuan 0.69
American 1.93
Beringian 2.67
Mediterranean 5.59
SW-Asian 0.30
San 0.00
E-African 0.31
Pygmy 0.00
W-African 0.57



Mixed Mode:
1 74.61% tajik + 25.39% chuvash @ 3.894
2 80.86% tajik + 19.14% russian2 @ 5.207
3 79.30% tajik + 20.70% mordovian @ 5.266
4 87.11% pamiri-rushan + 12.89% yukaghir @ 5.806
5 84.77% pamiri-rushan + 15.23% altaian @ 5.925
6 83.98% tajik + 16.02% lithuanian @ 5.970
7 81.64% tajik + 18.36% russian1 @ 5.982
8 86.33% pamiri-rushan + 13.67% selkup @ 6.073
9 85.55% tajik + 14.45% finnish @ 6.076
10 82.42% pamiri-rushan + 17.58% kazakh @ 6.101

Least-squares method.

Using 1 populations approximation
1 100% pamiri-rushan @ 10.115
2 100% pamiri-shughnan @ 11.108
3 100% tajik @ 12.225
4 100% yaghnobi @ 12.694
5 100% pamiri-ishkashim @ 14.629
6 100% pamiri-wakhi @ 16.711
7 100% tajik-nw-afghanistan @ 18.513
8 100% turkmen-afghanistan @ 18.626
9 100% uzbek-afghanistan @ 18.678
10 100% pashtun-n-afghanistan @ 20.180

Using 2 populations approximation
1 50% pamiri-rushan + 50% turkmen-afghanistan @ 9.241
2 50% pamiri-rushan + 50% uzbek @ 10.090
3 50% pamiri-rushan + 50% pamiri-rushan @ 10.115
4 50% pamiri-rushan + 50% tajik @ 10.266
5 50% baloch-iran + 50% chuvash @ 10.430
6 50% pamiri-rushan + 50% pamiri-shughnan @ 10.501
7 50% pamiri-shughnan + 50% turkmen-afghanistan @ 10.568
8 50% iranian-mashhad + 50% chuvash @ 10.584
9 50% pamiri-rushan + 50% yaghnobi @ 10.645
10 50% iranian-bandari + 50% chuvash @ 10.658

Using 3 populations approximation
1 33% tajik + 33% tajik + 33% chuvash @ 5.307
2 33% pamiri-shughnan + 33% tajik + 33% chuvash @ 6.739
3 33% tajik + 33% yaghnobi + 33% chuvash @ 7.137
4 33% pamiri-rushan + 33% pamiri-rushan + 33% uzbek @ 7.505
5 33% turkmen + 33% kho + 33% chuvash @ 7.613
6 33% pamiri-rushan + 33% pamiri-rushan + 33% turkmen-afghanistan @ 7.753
7 33% pamiri-rushan + 33% pamiri-shughnan + 33% uzbek @ 8.321
8 33% tajik + 33% tajik + 33% mordovian @ 8.522
9 33% pamiri-rushan + 33% pamiri-shughnan + 33% turkmen-afghanistan @ 8.543
10 33% pashtun-n-afghanistan + 33% tajik-herat + 33% chuvash @ 8.561

Using 4 populations approximation
1 25% tajik + 25% tajik + 25% tajik + 25% chuvash @ 3.899
2 25% tajik + 25% tajik + 25% yaghnobi + 25% chuvash @ 4.706
3 25% pamiri-shughnan + 25% pamiri-shughnan + 25% tajik + 25% chuvash @ 5.599
4 25% tajik + 25% tajik + 25% tajik + 25% mordovian @ 5.733
5 25% tajik + 25% tajik + 25% tajik + 25% russian2 @ 6.119
6 25% tajik + 25% tajik + 25% tajik + 25% ukranian @ 6.756
7 25% pamiri-rushan + 25% pamiri-rushan + 25% pamiri-rushan + 25% kazakh @ 6.946
8 25% pamiri-shughnan + 25% pamiri-shughnan + 25% pamiri-shughnan + 25% chuvash @ 7.027
9 25% tajik + 25% tajik + 25% tajik + 25% russian1 @ 7.039
10 25% pamiri-rushan + 25% pamiri-rushan + 25% pamiri-rushan + 25% uzbek @ 7.120





NAI002

Components %
S-Indian 4.41
Baloch 19.10
Caucasian 15.55
NE-Euro 26.31
SE-Asian 0.00
Siberian 16.63
NE-Asian 4.54
Papuan 0.42
American 2.68
Beringian 4.17
Mediterranean 4.73
SW-Asian 0.42
San 0.00
E-African 0.00
Pygmy 0.00
W-African 1.05




Mixed Mode:
1 55.08% tajik-nw-afghanistan + 44.92% chuvash @ 6.851
2 66.80% yaghnobi + 33.20% selkup @ 7.016
3 62.11% turkmen-afghanistan + 37.89% chuvash @ 7.149
4 70.70% pamiri-rushan + 29.30% yukaghir @ 7.152
5 68.36% pamiri-rushan + 31.64% selkup @ 7.242
6 55.08% uzbek-afghanistan + 44.92% chuvash @ 7.302
7 50.39% chuvash + 49.61% tajik-nw-afghanistan @ 7.378
8 50.39% chuvash + 49.61% uzbek-afghanistan @ 7.769
9 68.36% pamiri-shughnan + 31.64% selkup @ 7.933
10 71.48% pamiri-rushan + 28.52% ket @ 7.934

Least-squares method.

Using 1 populations approximation
1 100% turkmen-afghanistan @ 17.844
2 100% pamiri-rushan @ 19.811
3 100% pamiri-shughnan @ 20.009
4 100% uzbek @ 20.474
5 100% tajik @ 21.098
6 100% yaghnobi @ 21.283
7 100% tajik-nw-afghanistan @ 22.883
8 100% pamiri-ishkashim @ 23.049
9 100% uzbek-afghanistan @ 23.073
10 100% pamiri-wakhi @ 23.816

Using 2 populations approximation
1 50% tajik-nw-afghanistan + 50% chuvash @ 7.310
2 50% uzbek-afghanistan + 50% chuvash @ 7.706
3 50% turkmen + 50% chuvash @ 8.267
4 50% turkmen-afghanistan + 50% chuvash @ 8.871
5 50% tajik-herat + 50% chuvash @ 9.047
6 50% tajik + 50% chuvash @ 9.451
7 50% pashtun-n-afghanistan + 50% chuvash @ 10.100
8 50% chuvash + 50% qizilbash1 @ 10.328
9 50% chuvash + 50% iranian-yazd @ 11.071
10 50% chuvash + 50% iranian-mashhad @ 11.127

Using 3 populations approximation
1 33% turkmen-afghanistan + 33% pamiri-rushan + 33% chuvash @ 6.479
2 33% pamiri-shughnan + 33% uzbek + 33% chuvash @ 6.639
3 33% bulgarian + 33% dameli + 33% selkup @ 6.741
4 33% yaghnobi + 33% yaghnobi + 33% selkup @ 7.016
5 33% uzbek + 33% tajik + 33% chuvash @ 7.082
6 33% pamiri-rushan + 33% pamiri-rushan + 33% selkup @ 7.328
7 33% turkmen-afghanistan + 33% turkmen-afghanistan + 33% chuvash @ 7.409
8 33% bulgarian + 33% dameli + 33% ket @ 7.450
9 33% pashtun-uthmankhel + 33% romanian-a + 33% selkup @ 7.553
10 33% pamiri-rushan + 33% pamiri-shughnan + 33% selkup @ 7.602

Using 4 populations approximation
1 25% turkmen-afghanistan + 25% turkmen-afghanistan + 25% pamiri-rushan + 25% chuvash @ 6.666
2 25% pashtun-n-afghanistan + 25% pashtun-n-afghanistan + 25% chuvash + 25% selkup @ 6.836
3 25% pashtun-n-afghanistan + 25% pashtun-n-afghanistan + 25% chuvash + 25% yukaghir @ 6.850
4 25% pashtun-n-afghanistan + 25% pashtun-n-afghanistan + 25% chuvash + 25% ket @ 7.507
5 25% pamiri-rushan + 25% pamiri-rushan + 25% pamiri-rushan + 25% yukaghir @ 7.625
6 25% pamiri-shughnan + 25% pamiri-shughnan + 25% uzbek + 25% selkup @ 7.936
7 25% pamiri-rushan + 25% pamiri-rushan + 25% pamiri-shughnan + 25% yukaghir @ 7.992
8 25% pamiri-shughnan + 25% pamiri-shughnan + 25% uzbek + 25% chuvash @ 8.063
9 25% pamiri-wakhi + 25% pamiri-wakhi + 25% nogai + 25% selkup @ 8.119
10 25% pamiri-rushan + 25% pamiri-rushan + 25% pamiri-rushan + 25% selkup @ 8.160




Your right, they are , those other OLN 002/003 samples had extra Iran Chl which Pamiris typically dont require. Can you run the kits of those OLN samples and TUK001 for comparison. When you take out the EA ancestry out of NAI001, you get a ghost which is very similar to TKM IA.

altvred
03-23-2021, 10:55 PM
Your right, they are , those other OLN 002/003 samples had extra Iran Chl which Pamiris typically dont require. Can you run the kits of those OLN samples and TUK001 for comparison. When you take out the EA ancestry out of NAI001, you get a ghost which is very similar to TKM IA.

Here's the comparison with the OLN, NAI samples, and the TUK001 individual.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1tl1payDzWAE2OobYBmHhtaWVdKm9iKTOQ1IMXuxCS-o/edit?usp=sharing

Granted TUK001 has only 20% coverage for 23andMe SNPs compared to the average 70%-80% of the rest.


Nearly all the Xiongnu Sarmatians have like 70-80% Sogdian related ancestry. Naming that cluster Sarmatians was just very silly.

The Xiongnu had a long-lasting and well documented alliance with the Kangju state, how did they miss that obvious connection?

Good question. They definitely need to involve more archaeologists and historians before they publish papers, I don't want to disparage anyone but sometimes geneticists make ridiculous claims that have zero connection with reality. Even the autosomals and Y-DNA of these 'Sarmatian' Huns don't seem too typically Sarmatian/Scythian to me.

CopperAxe
03-23-2021, 11:42 PM
Good question. They definitely need to involve more archaeologists and historians before they publish papers, I don't want to disparage anyone but sometimes geneticists make ridiculous claims that have zero connection with reality. Even the autosomals and Y-DNA of these 'Sarmatian' Huns don't seem too typically Sarmatian/Scythian to me.

It is definitely problematic for this reason:


The results suggest mastery of the horse made possible stunning long-distance voyages on Central Asia’s sea of grass. Archaeological finds in the graves of Xiongnu elites, such as Roman glass, Persian textiles, and Greek silver, had suggested distant connections. But the genetic evidence suggests something more than trade. Eleven Xiongnu-period skeletons showed genetic signatures similar to those of the Sarmatians, nomad warriors who dominated the region north of the Black Sea, 2000 kilometers across the open steppe from Mongolia.

“There’s no written evidence of [Xiongnu] contact with Sarmatians, and it’s not well-attested archaeologically. It’s really surprising they’re mixing over these long distances,” says Tsagaan Turbat, an archaeologist at the Mongolian Academy of Sciences’s Institute of Archaeology. “This kind of information is really a game changer.”

https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2020/11/horse-mastery-helped-mysterious-mongolian-warriors-build-multiethnic-empire

Archaeologists rely on geneticists and when they get fed faulty information they will have to come up with new explanations for things that didn't happen.

That being said out of those samples BUR003 might have significant Sarmatian-like ancestry, when I use samples from the Prokovka group it gets 50%. But how much of this is genuinely Sarmatian and how much is just more western Central Asian Saka or perhaps even Khwarezmian related is hard to say. And then you have the question of context because the other 50% is Sogdian-esque.

So are we dealing with a child of a Sarmatian migrant to Mongolia, or is this someone from Central Asia who had a parent from somewhere further west?

Another big issue when it comes the iron age steppe is that articles are repeatedly quoting Krzewińska et al. that there was no paternal connection between western and eastern scythians, which had r1b and r1a respectively. Obviously it is a load of horsecrap, and not just the historical aspects of it, their haplogroup calls were completey off the mark as well.


The absence of R1b lineages in the Scytho-Siberian individuals tested so far and their presence in the North Pontic Scythians suggest that these 2 groups had a completely different paternal lineage makeup with nearly no gene flow from male carriers between them.

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2Fs00439-019-02002-y