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Coldmountains
10-31-2020, 09:45 AM
Yfull uploaded some Srubnaya samples and analyzed their R1a clades, which unsurprisingly are mainly under under Z93.

More interesting here is that many if not most Srubnaya samples are under rare and basal Z93* clades with some, Z280*, Z2124 and Z2123. So many of the Srubnaya clades diverged earlier from most of the Scythian/Saka R1a clades than Indo-Aryan L657, which is like Scythian Z2124 clades also under Z94. None of the Srubnaya clades seems to be very common today and they are often spread over a very wide region. It seems their clades were mostly replaced by Saka/Cimmerians/Scythians from the east who brought Mongol_N-like admix and also more eastern Z94 and Z2124 clades. Some of the Srubnaya clades were likely still present among later Scythians/Sarmatians and because of that some Srubnaya clades seem to match modern day East Europeans and North Caucasians. Based on all this i would speculate, that Srubnaya belonged to an extinct branch of Indo-Iranians or at least to some kind of early diverged Para-Iranics.

MUR003
Muradym 8 Srubno-alakulskaya 1880 - 1685 BCE R1a-Z93>BY226207 https://www.yfull.com/live/tree/R-BY226207/ (closest matches modern day Italian and Saudi Arabian samples)

KZB002
Kazburun 1 Srubno-alakulskaya 1875 - 1665 BCE R1a-Z93>YP5585 https://www.yfull.com/live/tree/R-YP5585*/ (closest matches modern day Indian and British samples)

KZB007
Kazburun 1 Srubno-alakulskaya 1755 - 1630 BCE R-Z93>Z94>Z2124>Z2125>Z2123>Y934>BY30762 https://www.yfull.com/live/tree/R-BY30762/ (closest matches modern day East European and North Caucasian samples)

KZB008
Kazburun 1 Srubno-alakulskaya 1880 -1690 BCE R-Z283>Z282>Z280* https://www.yfull.com/live/tree/R-Z280*/

KZB005 is based on his BAM files also under R1a-Z280* but i could not find him on Yfull yet. He is the brother of KZB008 so he will be under the same clade.

KZB005
kzb005 Kazburun 1 Srubno-alakulskaya 1880 - 1690 BCE

Coldmountains
10-31-2020, 05:09 PM
Other Srubnaya samples from another study which were not yet uploaded on Yfull.

I0232
I0232 Novoselki, Samara 1850-1200 BCE R-Z93>FGC82884>YP1506 Here analyzed: https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?20521-Y-Chromosome-Haplogroup-assignments-for-2500-ancient-samples/page3 https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-YP1506/ (closest matches modern day samples from Pakistan and the Altai region)

I0430
I0430 Spiridonovka II, Samara 1850-1600 BCE R-Z93>Z94>Z2124>Z2125>Z2123 Here analyzed: https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?20521-Y-Chromosome-Haplogroup-assignments-for-2500-ancient-samples/page3 Yfull: https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Z2123/

I0361
I0361 Spiridonovka II, Samara 1850-1600 BCE R-Z93>Z94>Z2124 Here analyzed: https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?20521-Y-Chromosome-Haplogroup-assignments-for-2500-ancient-samples/page3 Yfull:https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Z2124/

I0423
I0423 Barinovka I, Samara 1850-1200 BCE R-Z93 Here analyzed: https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?20521-Y-Chromosome-Haplogroup-assignments-for-2500-ancient-samples/page3 Yfull: https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Z93/

I0424
I0424 Barinovka I, Samara 1850-1200 BCE R-Z93 Here analyzed: https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?20521-Y-Chromosome-Haplogroup-assignments-for-2500-ancient-samples/page3 Yfull:https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Z93/

I0360
I0360 Spiridonovka IV, Samara 2050-1650 BCE R1a-M417 Here analyzed: https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?20521-Y-Chromosome-Haplogroup-assignments-for-2500-ancient-samples/page3 Yfull:https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-M417/

altvred
03-21-2021, 01:00 PM
MUR003
Muradym 8 Srubno-alakulskaya 1880 - 1685 BCE R1a-Z93>BY226207 https://www.yfull.com/live/tree/R-BY226207/ (closest matches modern day Italian and Saudi Arabian samples)



7 Tajik/Pamiri and one Kyrgyz from the GSA have been uploaded to Yfull and are BY226207+

https://i.imgur.com/cDYZOCW.png

Most likely they are going to split the subclade along with the Italian sample into R-BY226207* and R-Y111548, the Saudi kit and MUR003 are negative for Y111548 so they will remain upstream in the branch.

https://i.imgur.com/Ky1gLYc.png

https://www.yfull.com/live/tree/R-BY226207/

btmacdowell
03-21-2021, 02:22 PM
These must also be part of the same batch of additions...

43950

altvred
03-21-2021, 03:26 PM
Most of the samples with the initials WGC/SAMC come from these studies:

https://bigd.big.ac.cn/bioproject/browse/PRJCA000458
https://bigd.big.ac.cn/bioproject/browse/PRJCA000456
https://bigd.big.ac.cn/bioproject/browse/PRJCA000278
https://bigd.big.ac.cn/bioproject/browse/PRJCA000457

A few of the Kyrgyz samples aren't downstream of Z94 and instead belong to the parallel FGC82884 branch.

https://i.imgur.com/8my3JW8.png

https://i.imgur.com/5A5Toxn.png

https://i.imgur.com/P3U8M3h.png

Unsurprisingly, the dominant lineage among the Kyrgyz is R-S23592 quite commonly found in the ancient DNA of Nomads roaming that area.

https://i.imgur.com/e07Ld2G.png

Coldmountains
03-23-2021, 09:28 AM
7 Tajik/Pamiri and one Kyrgyz from the GSA have been uploaded to Yfull and are BY226207+

https://i.imgur.com/cDYZOCW.png

Most likely they are going to split the subclade along with the Italian sample into R-BY226207* and R-Y111548, the Saudi kit and MUR003 are negative for Y111548 so they will remain upstream in the branch.

https://i.imgur.com/Ky1gLYc.png

https://www.yfull.com/live/tree/R-BY226207/


That is pretty cool stuff and probably there are still some undetected basal Z93* branches with relatively many descendants in Afghanistan, Iran, Tajikistan and India. Maybe these Tajiks are related to Kashkarchi_BA Z93+ Z94- but i don't know their BY226207 status. Also i really hope YFull can find out more about the basal Fatyanovo Z93* samples. Also shows that Z94+ Indo-Iranians represented probably a small part of Z93+ diversity in Fatyanovo and Proto-Indo-Iranian Abashevo was still rich in basal Z93+ I think but with a lot of Z94+ already.

altvred
03-23-2021, 12:57 PM
That is pretty cool stuff and probably there are still some undetected basal Z93* branches with relatively many descendants in Afghanistan, Iran, Tajikistan and India. Maybe these Tajiks are related to Kashkarchi_BA Z93+ Z94- but i don't know their BY226207 status. Also i really hope YFull can find out more about the basal Fatyanovo Z93* samples. Also shows that Z94+ Indo-Iranians represented probably a small part of Z93+ diversity in Fatyanovo and Proto-Indo-Iranian Abashevo was still rich in basal Z93+ I think but with a lot of Z94+ already.

I have checked the two BA samples from Ferghana but could not get beyond Z93*; they do not have coverage for BY226207 and the downstream new markers.

Unfortunately, many of the SNPs added to the Yfull tree the last couple of years are not covered by the 1240k array of the Reich lab.

Anyway, it does make sense that the further south the Indo-Iranians or maybe by that time the Indo-Aryans, migrated we see a decrease of diversity in the patrilineal markers.

If central Asian countries were represented on Yfull/FTDNA on a comparable level to the West/Middle-East, we would probably see a North to south gradient, the countries closer to the steppe having a higher share of Z93+ Z94- subclades.

This is pure speculation on my part, but I am willing to bet that this represents the earliest split of Indo-Iranian, a diverging branch that left no historical or modern linguistic legacy and got absorbed later by the expanding Scythians from the east (Srubnaya fits the bill).

Alain
03-23-2021, 01:13 PM
Other Srubnaya samples from another study which were not yet uploaded on Yfull.

I0232
I0232 Novoselki, Samara 1850-1200 BCE R-Z93>FGC82884>YP1506 Here analyzed: https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?20521-Y-Chromosome-Haplogroup-assignments-for-2500-ancient-samples/page3 https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-YP1506/ (closest matches modern day samples from Pakistan and the Altai region)

I0430
I0430 Spiridonovka II, Samara 1850-1600 BCE R-Z93>Z94>Z2124>Z2125>Z2123 Here analyzed: https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?20521-Y-Chromosome-Haplogroup-assignments-for-2500-ancient-samples/page3 Yfull: https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Z2123/

I0361
I0361 Spiridonovka II, Samara 1850-1600 BCE R-Z93>Z94>Z2124 Here analyzed: https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?20521-Y-Chromosome-Haplogroup-assignments-for-2500-ancient-samples/page3 Yfull:https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Z2124/

I0423
I0423 Barinovka I, Samara 1850-1200 BCE R-Z93 Here analyzed: https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?20521-Y-Chromosome-Haplogroup-assignments-for-2500-ancient-samples/page3 Yfull: https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Z93/

I0424
I0424 Barinovka I, Samara 1850-1200 BCE R-Z93 Here analyzed: https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?20521-Y-Chromosome-Haplogroup-assignments-for-2500-ancient-samples/page3 Yfull:https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Z93/

I0360
I0360 Spiridonovka IV, Samara 2050-1650 BCE R1a-M417 Here analyzed: https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?20521-Y-Chromosome-Haplogroup-assignments-for-2500-ancient-samples/page3 Yfull:https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-M417/

Does the R1a-M417 sample 10360 fall under R-CTS4385, that would be interesting?

RCO
03-23-2021, 01:25 PM
Sorry to ask but "Srubnaya" is just an opinion. They can have completely different origins and they were never there. We need more results.

Coldmountains
03-23-2021, 01:33 PM
I have checked the two BA samples from Ferghana but could not get beyond Z93*; they do not have coverage for BY226207 and the downstream new markers.

Unfortunately, many of the SNPs added to the Yfull tree the last couple of years are not covered by the 1240k array of the Reich lab.

Anyway, it does make sense that the further south the Indo-Iranians or maybe by that time the Indo-Aryans, migrated we see a decrease of diversity in the patrilineal markers.

If central Asian countries were represented on Yfull/FTDNA on a comparable level to the West/Middle-East, we would probably see a North to south gradient, the countries closer to the steppe having a higher share of Z93+ Z94- subclades.

This is pure speculation on my part, but I am willing to bet that this represents the earliest split of Indo-Iranian, a diverging branch that left no historical or modern linguistic legacy and got absorbed later by the expanding Scythians from the east (Srubnaya fits the bill).

Z93* and the Z94- clades are probably older than 3000 B.C so likely formed long before the split and formation of Indo-Iranians. It is likely that Proto-Indo-Iranians, Proto-Indo-Aryans and Proto-Iranics already carried Z94- and even basal R1a from PII. Because of that R1a-Z93- is found in (South) India too which likely derives almost all of their R1a from early Indo-Aryans

altvred
03-23-2021, 09:09 PM
Z93* and the Z94- clades are probably older than 3000 B.C so likely formed long before the split and formation of Indo-Iranians. It is likely that Proto-Indo-Iranians, Proto-Indo-Aryans and Proto-Iranics already carried Z94- and even basal R1a from PII. Because of that R1a-Z93- is found in (South) India too which likely derives almost all of their R1a from early Indo-Aryans

We now even have clearly Iranian subclades of Z282 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y17491/), combine that with the I2's in the Swat valley, and it looks like it wasn't just Z93 the Indo-Iranians were leaving in their wake.

A bit off-topic, but I was going over old files on my PC and found the 23andMe kits I made out of the published 'Sarmatian Huns' from the Mongolia paper - including one for NAI002 that was Z283+. I ran the kits through Harappaworld, and unsurprisingly they look like Pamiris with Siberian admixture.


NAI001
Components %
S-Indian 2.99
Baloch 27.03
Caucasian 17.14
NE-Euro 24.66
SE-Asian 1.91
Siberian 8.84
NE-Asian 5.38
Papuan 0.69
American 1.93
Beringian 2.67
Mediterranean 5.59
SW-Asian 0.30
San 0.00
E-African 0.31
Pygmy 0.00
W-African 0.57



Mixed Mode:
1 74.61% tajik + 25.39% chuvash @ 3.894
2 80.86% tajik + 19.14% russian2 @ 5.207
3 79.30% tajik + 20.70% mordovian @ 5.266
4 87.11% pamiri-rushan + 12.89% yukaghir @ 5.806
5 84.77% pamiri-rushan + 15.23% altaian @ 5.925
6 83.98% tajik + 16.02% lithuanian @ 5.970
7 81.64% tajik + 18.36% russian1 @ 5.982
8 86.33% pamiri-rushan + 13.67% selkup @ 6.073
9 85.55% tajik + 14.45% finnish @ 6.076
10 82.42% pamiri-rushan + 17.58% kazakh @ 6.101

Least-squares method.

Using 1 populations approximation
1 100% pamiri-rushan @ 10.115
2 100% pamiri-shughnan @ 11.108
3 100% tajik @ 12.225
4 100% yaghnobi @ 12.694
5 100% pamiri-ishkashim @ 14.629
6 100% pamiri-wakhi @ 16.711
7 100% tajik-nw-afghanistan @ 18.513
8 100% turkmen-afghanistan @ 18.626
9 100% uzbek-afghanistan @ 18.678
10 100% pashtun-n-afghanistan @ 20.180

Using 2 populations approximation
1 50% pamiri-rushan + 50% turkmen-afghanistan @ 9.241
2 50% pamiri-rushan + 50% uzbek @ 10.090
3 50% pamiri-rushan + 50% pamiri-rushan @ 10.115
4 50% pamiri-rushan + 50% tajik @ 10.266
5 50% baloch-iran + 50% chuvash @ 10.430
6 50% pamiri-rushan + 50% pamiri-shughnan @ 10.501
7 50% pamiri-shughnan + 50% turkmen-afghanistan @ 10.568
8 50% iranian-mashhad + 50% chuvash @ 10.584
9 50% pamiri-rushan + 50% yaghnobi @ 10.645
10 50% iranian-bandari + 50% chuvash @ 10.658

Using 3 populations approximation
1 33% tajik + 33% tajik + 33% chuvash @ 5.307
2 33% pamiri-shughnan + 33% tajik + 33% chuvash @ 6.739
3 33% tajik + 33% yaghnobi + 33% chuvash @ 7.137
4 33% pamiri-rushan + 33% pamiri-rushan + 33% uzbek @ 7.505
5 33% turkmen + 33% kho + 33% chuvash @ 7.613
6 33% pamiri-rushan + 33% pamiri-rushan + 33% turkmen-afghanistan @ 7.753
7 33% pamiri-rushan + 33% pamiri-shughnan + 33% uzbek @ 8.321
8 33% tajik + 33% tajik + 33% mordovian @ 8.522
9 33% pamiri-rushan + 33% pamiri-shughnan + 33% turkmen-afghanistan @ 8.543
10 33% pashtun-n-afghanistan + 33% tajik-herat + 33% chuvash @ 8.561

Using 4 populations approximation
1 25% tajik + 25% tajik + 25% tajik + 25% chuvash @ 3.899
2 25% tajik + 25% tajik + 25% yaghnobi + 25% chuvash @ 4.706
3 25% pamiri-shughnan + 25% pamiri-shughnan + 25% tajik + 25% chuvash @ 5.599
4 25% tajik + 25% tajik + 25% tajik + 25% mordovian @ 5.733
5 25% tajik + 25% tajik + 25% tajik + 25% russian2 @ 6.119
6 25% tajik + 25% tajik + 25% tajik + 25% ukranian @ 6.756
7 25% pamiri-rushan + 25% pamiri-rushan + 25% pamiri-rushan + 25% kazakh @ 6.946
8 25% pamiri-shughnan + 25% pamiri-shughnan + 25% pamiri-shughnan + 25% chuvash @ 7.027
9 25% tajik + 25% tajik + 25% tajik + 25% russian1 @ 7.039
10 25% pamiri-rushan + 25% pamiri-rushan + 25% pamiri-rushan + 25% uzbek @ 7.120





NAI002

Components %
S-Indian 4.41
Baloch 19.10
Caucasian 15.55
NE-Euro 26.31
SE-Asian 0.00
Siberian 16.63
NE-Asian 4.54
Papuan 0.42
American 2.68
Beringian 4.17
Mediterranean 4.73
SW-Asian 0.42
San 0.00
E-African 0.00
Pygmy 0.00
W-African 1.05




Mixed Mode:
1 55.08% tajik-nw-afghanistan + 44.92% chuvash @ 6.851
2 66.80% yaghnobi + 33.20% selkup @ 7.016
3 62.11% turkmen-afghanistan + 37.89% chuvash @ 7.149
4 70.70% pamiri-rushan + 29.30% yukaghir @ 7.152
5 68.36% pamiri-rushan + 31.64% selkup @ 7.242
6 55.08% uzbek-afghanistan + 44.92% chuvash @ 7.302
7 50.39% chuvash + 49.61% tajik-nw-afghanistan @ 7.378
8 50.39% chuvash + 49.61% uzbek-afghanistan @ 7.769
9 68.36% pamiri-shughnan + 31.64% selkup @ 7.933
10 71.48% pamiri-rushan + 28.52% ket @ 7.934

Least-squares method.

Using 1 populations approximation
1 100% turkmen-afghanistan @ 17.844
2 100% pamiri-rushan @ 19.811
3 100% pamiri-shughnan @ 20.009
4 100% uzbek @ 20.474
5 100% tajik @ 21.098
6 100% yaghnobi @ 21.283
7 100% tajik-nw-afghanistan @ 22.883
8 100% pamiri-ishkashim @ 23.049
9 100% uzbek-afghanistan @ 23.073
10 100% pamiri-wakhi @ 23.816

Using 2 populations approximation
1 50% tajik-nw-afghanistan + 50% chuvash @ 7.310
2 50% uzbek-afghanistan + 50% chuvash @ 7.706
3 50% turkmen + 50% chuvash @ 8.267
4 50% turkmen-afghanistan + 50% chuvash @ 8.871
5 50% tajik-herat + 50% chuvash @ 9.047
6 50% tajik + 50% chuvash @ 9.451
7 50% pashtun-n-afghanistan + 50% chuvash @ 10.100
8 50% chuvash + 50% qizilbash1 @ 10.328
9 50% chuvash + 50% iranian-yazd @ 11.071
10 50% chuvash + 50% iranian-mashhad @ 11.127

Using 3 populations approximation
1 33% turkmen-afghanistan + 33% pamiri-rushan + 33% chuvash @ 6.479
2 33% pamiri-shughnan + 33% uzbek + 33% chuvash @ 6.639
3 33% bulgarian + 33% dameli + 33% selkup @ 6.741
4 33% yaghnobi + 33% yaghnobi + 33% selkup @ 7.016
5 33% uzbek + 33% tajik + 33% chuvash @ 7.082
6 33% pamiri-rushan + 33% pamiri-rushan + 33% selkup @ 7.328
7 33% turkmen-afghanistan + 33% turkmen-afghanistan + 33% chuvash @ 7.409
8 33% bulgarian + 33% dameli + 33% ket @ 7.450
9 33% pashtun-uthmankhel + 33% romanian-a + 33% selkup @ 7.553
10 33% pamiri-rushan + 33% pamiri-shughnan + 33% selkup @ 7.602

Using 4 populations approximation
1 25% turkmen-afghanistan + 25% turkmen-afghanistan + 25% pamiri-rushan + 25% chuvash @ 6.666
2 25% pashtun-n-afghanistan + 25% pashtun-n-afghanistan + 25% chuvash + 25% selkup @ 6.836
3 25% pashtun-n-afghanistan + 25% pashtun-n-afghanistan + 25% chuvash + 25% yukaghir @ 6.850
4 25% pashtun-n-afghanistan + 25% pashtun-n-afghanistan + 25% chuvash + 25% ket @ 7.507
5 25% pamiri-rushan + 25% pamiri-rushan + 25% pamiri-rushan + 25% yukaghir @ 7.625
6 25% pamiri-shughnan + 25% pamiri-shughnan + 25% uzbek + 25% selkup @ 7.936
7 25% pamiri-rushan + 25% pamiri-rushan + 25% pamiri-shughnan + 25% yukaghir @ 7.992
8 25% pamiri-shughnan + 25% pamiri-shughnan + 25% uzbek + 25% chuvash @ 8.063
9 25% pamiri-wakhi + 25% pamiri-wakhi + 25% nogai + 25% selkup @ 8.119
10 25% pamiri-rushan + 25% pamiri-rushan + 25% pamiri-rushan + 25% selkup @ 8.160

CopperAxe
03-23-2021, 09:23 PM
We now even have clearly Iranian subclades of Z282 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y17491/), combine that with the I2's in the Swat valley, and it looks like it wasn't just Z93 the Indo-Iranians were leaving in their wake.

A bit off-topic, but I was going over old files on my PC and found the 23andMe kits I made out of the published 'Sarmatian Huns' from the Mongolia paper - including one for NAI002 that was Z283+. I ran the kits through Harappaworld, and unsurprisingly they look like Pamiris with Siberian admixture.


NAI001
Components %
S-Indian 2.99
Baloch 27.03
Caucasian 17.14
NE-Euro 24.66
SE-Asian 1.91
Siberian 8.84
NE-Asian 5.38
Papuan 0.69
American 1.93
Beringian 2.67
Mediterranean 5.59
SW-Asian 0.30
San 0.00
E-African 0.31
Pygmy 0.00
W-African 0.57



Mixed Mode:
1 74.61% tajik + 25.39% chuvash @ 3.894
2 80.86% tajik + 19.14% russian2 @ 5.207
3 79.30% tajik + 20.70% mordovian @ 5.266
4 87.11% pamiri-rushan + 12.89% yukaghir @ 5.806
5 84.77% pamiri-rushan + 15.23% altaian @ 5.925
6 83.98% tajik + 16.02% lithuanian @ 5.970
7 81.64% tajik + 18.36% russian1 @ 5.982
8 86.33% pamiri-rushan + 13.67% selkup @ 6.073
9 85.55% tajik + 14.45% finnish @ 6.076
10 82.42% pamiri-rushan + 17.58% kazakh @ 6.101

Least-squares method.

Using 1 populations approximation
1 100% pamiri-rushan @ 10.115
2 100% pamiri-shughnan @ 11.108
3 100% tajik @ 12.225
4 100% yaghnobi @ 12.694
5 100% pamiri-ishkashim @ 14.629
6 100% pamiri-wakhi @ 16.711
7 100% tajik-nw-afghanistan @ 18.513
8 100% turkmen-afghanistan @ 18.626
9 100% uzbek-afghanistan @ 18.678
10 100% pashtun-n-afghanistan @ 20.180

Using 2 populations approximation
1 50% pamiri-rushan + 50% turkmen-afghanistan @ 9.241
2 50% pamiri-rushan + 50% uzbek @ 10.090
3 50% pamiri-rushan + 50% pamiri-rushan @ 10.115
4 50% pamiri-rushan + 50% tajik @ 10.266
5 50% baloch-iran + 50% chuvash @ 10.430
6 50% pamiri-rushan + 50% pamiri-shughnan @ 10.501
7 50% pamiri-shughnan + 50% turkmen-afghanistan @ 10.568
8 50% iranian-mashhad + 50% chuvash @ 10.584
9 50% pamiri-rushan + 50% yaghnobi @ 10.645
10 50% iranian-bandari + 50% chuvash @ 10.658

Using 3 populations approximation
1 33% tajik + 33% tajik + 33% chuvash @ 5.307
2 33% pamiri-shughnan + 33% tajik + 33% chuvash @ 6.739
3 33% tajik + 33% yaghnobi + 33% chuvash @ 7.137
4 33% pamiri-rushan + 33% pamiri-rushan + 33% uzbek @ 7.505
5 33% turkmen + 33% kho + 33% chuvash @ 7.613
6 33% pamiri-rushan + 33% pamiri-rushan + 33% turkmen-afghanistan @ 7.753
7 33% pamiri-rushan + 33% pamiri-shughnan + 33% uzbek @ 8.321
8 33% tajik + 33% tajik + 33% mordovian @ 8.522
9 33% pamiri-rushan + 33% pamiri-shughnan + 33% turkmen-afghanistan @ 8.543
10 33% pashtun-n-afghanistan + 33% tajik-herat + 33% chuvash @ 8.561

Using 4 populations approximation
1 25% tajik + 25% tajik + 25% tajik + 25% chuvash @ 3.899
2 25% tajik + 25% tajik + 25% yaghnobi + 25% chuvash @ 4.706
3 25% pamiri-shughnan + 25% pamiri-shughnan + 25% tajik + 25% chuvash @ 5.599
4 25% tajik + 25% tajik + 25% tajik + 25% mordovian @ 5.733
5 25% tajik + 25% tajik + 25% tajik + 25% russian2 @ 6.119
6 25% tajik + 25% tajik + 25% tajik + 25% ukranian @ 6.756
7 25% pamiri-rushan + 25% pamiri-rushan + 25% pamiri-rushan + 25% kazakh @ 6.946
8 25% pamiri-shughnan + 25% pamiri-shughnan + 25% pamiri-shughnan + 25% chuvash @ 7.027
9 25% tajik + 25% tajik + 25% tajik + 25% russian1 @ 7.039
10 25% pamiri-rushan + 25% pamiri-rushan + 25% pamiri-rushan + 25% uzbek @ 7.120





NAI002

Components %
S-Indian 4.41
Baloch 19.10
Caucasian 15.55
NE-Euro 26.31
SE-Asian 0.00
Siberian 16.63
NE-Asian 4.54
Papuan 0.42
American 2.68
Beringian 4.17
Mediterranean 4.73
SW-Asian 0.42
San 0.00
E-African 0.00
Pygmy 0.00
W-African 1.05




Mixed Mode:
1 55.08% tajik-nw-afghanistan + 44.92% chuvash @ 6.851
2 66.80% yaghnobi + 33.20% selkup @ 7.016
3 62.11% turkmen-afghanistan + 37.89% chuvash @ 7.149
4 70.70% pamiri-rushan + 29.30% yukaghir @ 7.152
5 68.36% pamiri-rushan + 31.64% selkup @ 7.242
6 55.08% uzbek-afghanistan + 44.92% chuvash @ 7.302
7 50.39% chuvash + 49.61% tajik-nw-afghanistan @ 7.378
8 50.39% chuvash + 49.61% uzbek-afghanistan @ 7.769
9 68.36% pamiri-shughnan + 31.64% selkup @ 7.933
10 71.48% pamiri-rushan + 28.52% ket @ 7.934

Least-squares method.

Using 1 populations approximation
1 100% turkmen-afghanistan @ 17.844
2 100% pamiri-rushan @ 19.811
3 100% pamiri-shughnan @ 20.009
4 100% uzbek @ 20.474
5 100% tajik @ 21.098
6 100% yaghnobi @ 21.283
7 100% tajik-nw-afghanistan @ 22.883
8 100% pamiri-ishkashim @ 23.049
9 100% uzbek-afghanistan @ 23.073
10 100% pamiri-wakhi @ 23.816

Using 2 populations approximation
1 50% tajik-nw-afghanistan + 50% chuvash @ 7.310
2 50% uzbek-afghanistan + 50% chuvash @ 7.706
3 50% turkmen + 50% chuvash @ 8.267
4 50% turkmen-afghanistan + 50% chuvash @ 8.871
5 50% tajik-herat + 50% chuvash @ 9.047
6 50% tajik + 50% chuvash @ 9.451
7 50% pashtun-n-afghanistan + 50% chuvash @ 10.100
8 50% chuvash + 50% qizilbash1 @ 10.328
9 50% chuvash + 50% iranian-yazd @ 11.071
10 50% chuvash + 50% iranian-mashhad @ 11.127

Using 3 populations approximation
1 33% turkmen-afghanistan + 33% pamiri-rushan + 33% chuvash @ 6.479
2 33% pamiri-shughnan + 33% uzbek + 33% chuvash @ 6.639
3 33% bulgarian + 33% dameli + 33% selkup @ 6.741
4 33% yaghnobi + 33% yaghnobi + 33% selkup @ 7.016
5 33% uzbek + 33% tajik + 33% chuvash @ 7.082
6 33% pamiri-rushan + 33% pamiri-rushan + 33% selkup @ 7.328
7 33% turkmen-afghanistan + 33% turkmen-afghanistan + 33% chuvash @ 7.409
8 33% bulgarian + 33% dameli + 33% ket @ 7.450
9 33% pashtun-uthmankhel + 33% romanian-a + 33% selkup @ 7.553
10 33% pamiri-rushan + 33% pamiri-shughnan + 33% selkup @ 7.602

Using 4 populations approximation
1 25% turkmen-afghanistan + 25% turkmen-afghanistan + 25% pamiri-rushan + 25% chuvash @ 6.666
2 25% pashtun-n-afghanistan + 25% pashtun-n-afghanistan + 25% chuvash + 25% selkup @ 6.836
3 25% pashtun-n-afghanistan + 25% pashtun-n-afghanistan + 25% chuvash + 25% yukaghir @ 6.850
4 25% pashtun-n-afghanistan + 25% pashtun-n-afghanistan + 25% chuvash + 25% ket @ 7.507
5 25% pamiri-rushan + 25% pamiri-rushan + 25% pamiri-rushan + 25% yukaghir @ 7.625
6 25% pamiri-shughnan + 25% pamiri-shughnan + 25% uzbek + 25% selkup @ 7.936
7 25% pamiri-rushan + 25% pamiri-rushan + 25% pamiri-shughnan + 25% yukaghir @ 7.992
8 25% pamiri-shughnan + 25% pamiri-shughnan + 25% uzbek + 25% chuvash @ 8.063
9 25% pamiri-wakhi + 25% pamiri-wakhi + 25% nogai + 25% selkup @ 8.119
10 25% pamiri-rushan + 25% pamiri-rushan + 25% pamiri-rushan + 25% selkup @ 8.160




Nearly all the Xiongnu Sarmatians have like 70-80% Sogdian related ancestry. Naming that cluster Sarmatians was just very silly.

The Xiongnu had a long-lasting and well documented alliance with the Kangju state, how did they miss that obvious connection?

pegasus
03-23-2021, 10:05 PM
We now even have clearly Iranian subclades of Z282 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y17491/), combine that with the I2's in the Swat valley, and it looks like it wasn't just Z93 the Indo-Iranians were leaving in their wake.

A bit off-topic, but I was going over old files on my PC and found the 23andMe kits I made out of the published 'Sarmatian Huns' from the Mongolia paper - including one for NAI002 that was Z283+. I ran the kits through Harappaworld, and unsurprisingly they look like Pamiris with Siberian admixture.


NAI001
Components %
S-Indian 2.99
Baloch 27.03
Caucasian 17.14
NE-Euro 24.66
SE-Asian 1.91
Siberian 8.84
NE-Asian 5.38
Papuan 0.69
American 1.93
Beringian 2.67
Mediterranean 5.59
SW-Asian 0.30
San 0.00
E-African 0.31
Pygmy 0.00
W-African 0.57



Mixed Mode:
1 74.61% tajik + 25.39% chuvash @ 3.894
2 80.86% tajik + 19.14% russian2 @ 5.207
3 79.30% tajik + 20.70% mordovian @ 5.266
4 87.11% pamiri-rushan + 12.89% yukaghir @ 5.806
5 84.77% pamiri-rushan + 15.23% altaian @ 5.925
6 83.98% tajik + 16.02% lithuanian @ 5.970
7 81.64% tajik + 18.36% russian1 @ 5.982
8 86.33% pamiri-rushan + 13.67% selkup @ 6.073
9 85.55% tajik + 14.45% finnish @ 6.076
10 82.42% pamiri-rushan + 17.58% kazakh @ 6.101

Least-squares method.

Using 1 populations approximation
1 100% pamiri-rushan @ 10.115
2 100% pamiri-shughnan @ 11.108
3 100% tajik @ 12.225
4 100% yaghnobi @ 12.694
5 100% pamiri-ishkashim @ 14.629
6 100% pamiri-wakhi @ 16.711
7 100% tajik-nw-afghanistan @ 18.513
8 100% turkmen-afghanistan @ 18.626
9 100% uzbek-afghanistan @ 18.678
10 100% pashtun-n-afghanistan @ 20.180

Using 2 populations approximation
1 50% pamiri-rushan + 50% turkmen-afghanistan @ 9.241
2 50% pamiri-rushan + 50% uzbek @ 10.090
3 50% pamiri-rushan + 50% pamiri-rushan @ 10.115
4 50% pamiri-rushan + 50% tajik @ 10.266
5 50% baloch-iran + 50% chuvash @ 10.430
6 50% pamiri-rushan + 50% pamiri-shughnan @ 10.501
7 50% pamiri-shughnan + 50% turkmen-afghanistan @ 10.568
8 50% iranian-mashhad + 50% chuvash @ 10.584
9 50% pamiri-rushan + 50% yaghnobi @ 10.645
10 50% iranian-bandari + 50% chuvash @ 10.658

Using 3 populations approximation
1 33% tajik + 33% tajik + 33% chuvash @ 5.307
2 33% pamiri-shughnan + 33% tajik + 33% chuvash @ 6.739
3 33% tajik + 33% yaghnobi + 33% chuvash @ 7.137
4 33% pamiri-rushan + 33% pamiri-rushan + 33% uzbek @ 7.505
5 33% turkmen + 33% kho + 33% chuvash @ 7.613
6 33% pamiri-rushan + 33% pamiri-rushan + 33% turkmen-afghanistan @ 7.753
7 33% pamiri-rushan + 33% pamiri-shughnan + 33% uzbek @ 8.321
8 33% tajik + 33% tajik + 33% mordovian @ 8.522
9 33% pamiri-rushan + 33% pamiri-shughnan + 33% turkmen-afghanistan @ 8.543
10 33% pashtun-n-afghanistan + 33% tajik-herat + 33% chuvash @ 8.561

Using 4 populations approximation
1 25% tajik + 25% tajik + 25% tajik + 25% chuvash @ 3.899
2 25% tajik + 25% tajik + 25% yaghnobi + 25% chuvash @ 4.706
3 25% pamiri-shughnan + 25% pamiri-shughnan + 25% tajik + 25% chuvash @ 5.599
4 25% tajik + 25% tajik + 25% tajik + 25% mordovian @ 5.733
5 25% tajik + 25% tajik + 25% tajik + 25% russian2 @ 6.119
6 25% tajik + 25% tajik + 25% tajik + 25% ukranian @ 6.756
7 25% pamiri-rushan + 25% pamiri-rushan + 25% pamiri-rushan + 25% kazakh @ 6.946
8 25% pamiri-shughnan + 25% pamiri-shughnan + 25% pamiri-shughnan + 25% chuvash @ 7.027
9 25% tajik + 25% tajik + 25% tajik + 25% russian1 @ 7.039
10 25% pamiri-rushan + 25% pamiri-rushan + 25% pamiri-rushan + 25% uzbek @ 7.120





NAI002

Components %
S-Indian 4.41
Baloch 19.10
Caucasian 15.55
NE-Euro 26.31
SE-Asian 0.00
Siberian 16.63
NE-Asian 4.54
Papuan 0.42
American 2.68
Beringian 4.17
Mediterranean 4.73
SW-Asian 0.42
San 0.00
E-African 0.00
Pygmy 0.00
W-African 1.05




Mixed Mode:
1 55.08% tajik-nw-afghanistan + 44.92% chuvash @ 6.851
2 66.80% yaghnobi + 33.20% selkup @ 7.016
3 62.11% turkmen-afghanistan + 37.89% chuvash @ 7.149
4 70.70% pamiri-rushan + 29.30% yukaghir @ 7.152
5 68.36% pamiri-rushan + 31.64% selkup @ 7.242
6 55.08% uzbek-afghanistan + 44.92% chuvash @ 7.302
7 50.39% chuvash + 49.61% tajik-nw-afghanistan @ 7.378
8 50.39% chuvash + 49.61% uzbek-afghanistan @ 7.769
9 68.36% pamiri-shughnan + 31.64% selkup @ 7.933
10 71.48% pamiri-rushan + 28.52% ket @ 7.934

Least-squares method.

Using 1 populations approximation
1 100% turkmen-afghanistan @ 17.844
2 100% pamiri-rushan @ 19.811
3 100% pamiri-shughnan @ 20.009
4 100% uzbek @ 20.474
5 100% tajik @ 21.098
6 100% yaghnobi @ 21.283
7 100% tajik-nw-afghanistan @ 22.883
8 100% pamiri-ishkashim @ 23.049
9 100% uzbek-afghanistan @ 23.073
10 100% pamiri-wakhi @ 23.816

Using 2 populations approximation
1 50% tajik-nw-afghanistan + 50% chuvash @ 7.310
2 50% uzbek-afghanistan + 50% chuvash @ 7.706
3 50% turkmen + 50% chuvash @ 8.267
4 50% turkmen-afghanistan + 50% chuvash @ 8.871
5 50% tajik-herat + 50% chuvash @ 9.047
6 50% tajik + 50% chuvash @ 9.451
7 50% pashtun-n-afghanistan + 50% chuvash @ 10.100
8 50% chuvash + 50% qizilbash1 @ 10.328
9 50% chuvash + 50% iranian-yazd @ 11.071
10 50% chuvash + 50% iranian-mashhad @ 11.127

Using 3 populations approximation
1 33% turkmen-afghanistan + 33% pamiri-rushan + 33% chuvash @ 6.479
2 33% pamiri-shughnan + 33% uzbek + 33% chuvash @ 6.639
3 33% bulgarian + 33% dameli + 33% selkup @ 6.741
4 33% yaghnobi + 33% yaghnobi + 33% selkup @ 7.016
5 33% uzbek + 33% tajik + 33% chuvash @ 7.082
6 33% pamiri-rushan + 33% pamiri-rushan + 33% selkup @ 7.328
7 33% turkmen-afghanistan + 33% turkmen-afghanistan + 33% chuvash @ 7.409
8 33% bulgarian + 33% dameli + 33% ket @ 7.450
9 33% pashtun-uthmankhel + 33% romanian-a + 33% selkup @ 7.553
10 33% pamiri-rushan + 33% pamiri-shughnan + 33% selkup @ 7.602

Using 4 populations approximation
1 25% turkmen-afghanistan + 25% turkmen-afghanistan + 25% pamiri-rushan + 25% chuvash @ 6.666
2 25% pashtun-n-afghanistan + 25% pashtun-n-afghanistan + 25% chuvash + 25% selkup @ 6.836
3 25% pashtun-n-afghanistan + 25% pashtun-n-afghanistan + 25% chuvash + 25% yukaghir @ 6.850
4 25% pashtun-n-afghanistan + 25% pashtun-n-afghanistan + 25% chuvash + 25% ket @ 7.507
5 25% pamiri-rushan + 25% pamiri-rushan + 25% pamiri-rushan + 25% yukaghir @ 7.625
6 25% pamiri-shughnan + 25% pamiri-shughnan + 25% uzbek + 25% selkup @ 7.936
7 25% pamiri-rushan + 25% pamiri-rushan + 25% pamiri-shughnan + 25% yukaghir @ 7.992
8 25% pamiri-shughnan + 25% pamiri-shughnan + 25% uzbek + 25% chuvash @ 8.063
9 25% pamiri-wakhi + 25% pamiri-wakhi + 25% nogai + 25% selkup @ 8.119
10 25% pamiri-rushan + 25% pamiri-rushan + 25% pamiri-rushan + 25% selkup @ 8.160




Your right, they are , those other OLN 002/003 samples had extra Iran Chl which Pamiris typically dont require. Can you run the kits of those OLN samples and TUK001 for comparison. When you take out the EA ancestry out of NAI001, you get a ghost which is very similar to TKM IA.

altvred
03-23-2021, 10:55 PM
Your right, they are , those other OLN 002/003 samples had extra Iran Chl which Pamiris typically dont require. Can you run the kits of those OLN samples and TUK001 for comparison. When you take out the EA ancestry out of NAI001, you get a ghost which is very similar to TKM IA.

Here's the comparison with the OLN, NAI samples, and the TUK001 individual.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1tl1payDzWAE2OobYBmHhtaWVdKm9iKTOQ1IMXuxCS-o/edit?usp=sharing

Granted TUK001 has only 20% coverage for 23andMe SNPs compared to the average 70%-80% of the rest.


Nearly all the Xiongnu Sarmatians have like 70-80% Sogdian related ancestry. Naming that cluster Sarmatians was just very silly.

The Xiongnu had a long-lasting and well documented alliance with the Kangju state, how did they miss that obvious connection?

Good question. They definitely need to involve more archaeologists and historians before they publish papers, I don't want to disparage anyone but sometimes geneticists make ridiculous claims that have zero connection with reality. Even the autosomals and Y-DNA of these 'Sarmatian' Huns don't seem too typically Sarmatian/Scythian to me.

CopperAxe
03-23-2021, 11:42 PM
Good question. They definitely need to involve more archaeologists and historians before they publish papers, I don't want to disparage anyone but sometimes geneticists make ridiculous claims that have zero connection with reality. Even the autosomals and Y-DNA of these 'Sarmatian' Huns don't seem too typically Sarmatian/Scythian to me.

It is definitely problematic for this reason:


The results suggest mastery of the horse made possible stunning long-distance voyages on Central Asia’s sea of grass. Archaeological finds in the graves of Xiongnu elites, such as Roman glass, Persian textiles, and Greek silver, had suggested distant connections. But the genetic evidence suggests something more than trade. Eleven Xiongnu-period skeletons showed genetic signatures similar to those of the Sarmatians, nomad warriors who dominated the region north of the Black Sea, 2000 kilometers across the open steppe from Mongolia.

“There’s no written evidence of [Xiongnu] contact with Sarmatians, and it’s not well-attested archaeologically. It’s really surprising they’re mixing over these long distances,” says Tsagaan Turbat, an archaeologist at the Mongolian Academy of Sciences’s Institute of Archaeology. “This kind of information is really a game changer.”

https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2020/11/horse-mastery-helped-mysterious-mongolian-warriors-build-multiethnic-empire

Archaeologists rely on geneticists and when they get fed faulty information they will have to come up with new explanations for things that didn't happen.

That being said out of those samples BUR003 might have significant Sarmatian-like ancestry, when I use samples from the Prokovka group it gets 50%. But how much of this is genuinely Sarmatian and how much is just more western Central Asian Saka or perhaps even Khwarezmian related is hard to say. And then you have the question of context because the other 50% is Sogdian-esque.

So are we dealing with a child of a Sarmatian migrant to Mongolia, or is this someone from Central Asia who had a parent from somewhere further west?

Another big issue when it comes the iron age steppe is that articles are repeatedly quoting Krzewińska et al. that there was no paternal connection between western and eastern scythians, which had r1b and r1a respectively. Obviously it is a load of horsecrap, and not just the historical aspects of it, their haplogroup calls were completey off the mark as well.


The absence of R1b lineages in the Scytho-Siberian individuals tested so far and their presence in the North Pontic Scythians suggest that these 2 groups had a completely different paternal lineage makeup with nearly no gene flow from male carriers between them.

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2Fs00439-019-02002-y

discreetmaverick
05-23-2021, 05:27 PM
These Z2123 clades seem to be of Indo-Aryan origin. Pashtun Z2123, which makes around 10% of Pashtun Y-DNA is mainly under Y47 and SK2031.

https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y47/ (Found in South and East India, Afghanistan especially Ghilzai Pashtuns,)

https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y29452/ (Found among Kalash)

https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-SK2031/ (Found in South and East India, Afghanistan,Pamir)

https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y43743/ (Found in East India)

Continuing here for relevancy,

Is it possible these clades are not of Indo-Aryan origin but spread from Afghanistan with the spread of Buddhism?

It seems the birthplace of Buddha is archeologically disputed,


This true account of the scandal that enveloped the discovery in 1898 of an inscribed casket said to contain the ashes of the Buddha, is set against the background of the high noon of the British Raj. In January 1898 a British landowner, William Claxton Peppe, excavated a large Buddhist brick stupa on his estate close to India's border with Nepal. At a depth of 24 feet he uncovered a huge stone coffer. What made this discovery so important was an inscription found on the top of one of the reliquary caskets - declaring it to contain ashes of the Buddha. This news aroused world-wide interest since no other so well authenticated relics of the Buddha had ever been found. But almost immediately it became known that a German archaeologist, Dr Anton Fuhrer, working nearby at the same time had not only made bogus claims and faked his results but had also been associated with the dig. Fuhrer was quickly unmasked by a British magistrate who himself had a stake in the excavation.


https://www.amazon.in/Buddha-Dr-Fuhrer-Archaeological-Scandal/dp/1906598908

Even the archeologist who supposedly discovered the birthplace was caught in forgery and had resigned from his position.


Führer's archaeological career ended in disgrace as "a forger and dealer in fake antiquities", and he had to resign from his position in 1898.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alois_Anton_F%C3%BChrer

According to literature.


Kapilavastu was an ancient city on the Indian subcontinent which was the capital of the clan of the Shakyas. King Śuddhodana and Queen Māyā are believed to have lived at Kapilavastu, as did their son Prince Siddartha Gautama until he left the palace at the age of 29.[2] According to Buddhist sources, Kapilvastu was named after Vedic sage Kapila.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kapilavastu_(ancient_city)

Etymologically,

If any ancient/present city that is close to Kapila would be Kapisa, and Kapisa/Gandhara was likely the most important center of Buddhism as well.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kapisi

Coldmountains
05-24-2021, 10:22 AM
Continuing here for relevancy,

Is it possible these clades are not of Indo-Aryan origin but spread from Afghanistan with the spread of Buddhism?

It seems the birthplace of Buddha is archeologically disputed,



https://www.amazon.in/Buddha-Dr-Fuhrer-Archaeological-Scandal/dp/1906598908

Even the archeologist who supposedly discovered the birthplace was caught in forgery and had resigned from his position.



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alois_Anton_F%C3%BChrer

According to literature.



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kapilavastu_(ancient_city)

Etymologically,

If any ancient/present city that is close to Kapila would be Kapisa, and Kapisa/Gandhara was likely the most important center of Buddhism as well.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kapisi

I don't think there was much geneflow from Afghanistan into South Asia (excluding the NW frontier zones) after the Bronze Age/earliest IA and especially after Iron Age urbanization which correlates with the early Buddhist period. Buddhist era influences in Afghanistan rather seem to correlate with Indian/Gandhara migrations into Afghanistan and not the other way around. Buddhism in Afghanistan was in terms of culture/art/language really Indic with some local Iranic substrate at best. Surely we need more ancient DNA to pinpoint the origin of these South Asian Z2123 clades, but the fact that they are found among Hindu castes deep in South and East India points very much to an Indo-Aryan/Vedic origin. Actually they seem to be more common in South and East India than in NW India. The fact that Afghans show related Z2123 clades can be explained by the big Indo-Aryan substrate in Afghanistan. Afghanistan very much was the springboard of Bronze Age Indo-Aryans into South Asia.

discreetmaverick
05-25-2021, 06:59 PM
I don't think there was much geneflow from Afghanistan into South Asia (excluding the NW frontier zones) after the Bronze Age/earliest IA and especially after Iron Age urbanization which correlates with the early Buddhist period. Buddhist era influences in Afghanistan rather seem to correlate with Indian/Gandhara migrations into Afghanistan and not the other way around. Buddhism in Afghanistan was in terms of culture/art/language really Indic with some local Iranic substrate at best. Surely we need more ancient DNA to pinpoint the origin of these South Asian Z2123 clades, but the fact that they are found among Hindu castes deep in South and East India points very much to an Indo-Aryan/Vedic origin. Actually they seem to be more common in South and East India than in NW India. The fact that Afghans show related Z2123 clades can be explained by the big Indo-Aryan substrate in Afghanistan. Afghanistan very much was the springboard of Bronze Age Indo-Aryans into South Asia.


https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?20632-South-Asians-with-Turkish-Turkic-Mongol-descent-thread&highlight=South+Asians+Turk

This is the thread of people of Turk/Mongol descent, Aren't their people with these ancestry and subclades found across South Asia even in South India? or wherever they ruled?

Similarly, if Buddhism spread from Afghanistan/Bactria/Gandhara or was also spread from this region won't clades of this region could be found across India as Buddhism was once found across India.

https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y46/

Among the small number of samples, this one is found below Vindyas and only one in Bangladesh could that person has Pashtun lineage from the Muslim period?

https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-SK2031/

A basal clade is found among an Afghan and one found in Xinjiang. When and for what reason could have it reached Xinjiang?.

There are 4 people without location mentioned and one in Pakistan.
The path of entry of clades to the South from Afghanistan doesn't have to through India, can be from Afghanistan/Pakistan Punjab/Sindh/Gujarat as well.right?

https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y43743/

there are two samples, one from Jharkhand and the new one from Rajasthan.

https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y29452/

This now found among Punjabi as well.

Is it possible it can be a founder effect as well if these subclades are found more in South or East India?

Whatever clades Indo-greeks carried at this time. Won't they also have local warriors from this region? Based on this description it was no ordinary fight.


The invasion of the Yavanas (i.e., Indo-Greeks, under Demetrius I or Menander I, c. 180 BCE) is described in a rather detailed account:[4]
"After having conquered Saketa, the country of the Panchala and the Mathuras, the Yavanas, wicked and valiant, will reach Kusumadhvaja ("The town of the flower-standard", Pataliputra). The thick mud-fortifications at Pataliputra being reached, all the provinces will be in disorder, without doubt. Ultimately, a great battle will follow, with tree-like engines (siege engines)." (Gargi-Samhita Paragraph 5, Yuga Purana.)[7]

"The Yavanas (Greeks) will command, the Kings will disappear. (But ultimately) the Yavanas, intoxicated with fighting, will not stay in Madhyadesa (the Middle Country); there will be undoubtedly a civil war among them, arising in their own country (Bactria), there will be a terrible and ferocious war." (Gargi-Samhita, Yuga Purana chapter, No7).[8]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yuga_Purana

discreetmaverick
05-31-2021, 05:01 AM
We now even have clearly Iranian subclades of Z282 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y17491/), combine that with the I2's in the Swat valley, and it looks like it wasn't just Z93 the Indo-Iranians were leaving in their wake.



Correct me where I am wrong,

When you say it is Indo-Iranian subcalde, is it because it is being found among an Iranian and Baloch?

This clade is not present among any South/South Centrel asian.

This sub clade shared by a Baloch and an Iranian is also shared by Arabs and it is majorly present among people from Arab peninsula with older related clades present among Arabs as well.

It could have reached Baluchistan and Iran during Arab Conquest as well, right?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Balochistan#Islamic_conquest_of_Balochi stan

Prior clades seems to be present almost exclusively among Europeans.

https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Z282/

Coldmountains
05-31-2021, 11:09 AM
Correct me where I am wrong,

When you say it is Indo-Iranian subcalde, is it because it is being found among an Iranian and Baloch?

This clade is not present among any South/South Centrel asian.

This sub clade shared by a Baloch and an Iranian is also shared by Arabs and it is majorly present among people from Arab peninsula with older related clades present among Arabs as well.

It could have reached Baluchistan and Iran during Arab Conquest as well, right?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Balochistan#Islamic_conquest_of_Balochi stan

Prior clades seems to be present almost exclusively among Europeans.

https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Z282/

well it is a possibility but very very very unlikely because R1a makes something like 0-2% of tribal Arab Y-DNA (even most of that is from recent/medieval admixture). Tribal and Gulf Arabs are just 10x (+100x times if you compare them to Afghans/Tajiks or Balochs) if not more times better sampled than modern-day Indo-Iranians that is why they are for now extremely overrepresented at most Indo-Iranian clades. Also this Indo-Iranian R1a-Z282 clades was already found long before Islam or any European migrations/conquests.

NAI002/NAI003; 50 BC-100 AD*; Naimaa Tolgoi, Arkhangai Aimag; Mongolia; Late Xiongnu; R1a1a1b1-Z283>Z282>Y17491>YP4858>pre-Y190984

discreetmaverick
06-02-2021, 07:58 AM
well it is a possibility but very very very unlikely because R1a makes something like 0-2% of tribal Arab Y-DNA (even most of that is from recent/medieval admixture). Tribal and Gulf Arabs are just 10x (+100x times if you compare them to Afghans/Tajiks or Balochs) if not more times better sampled than modern-day Indo-Iranians that is why they are for now extremely overrepresented at most Indo-Iranian clades. Also this Indo-Iranian R1a-Z282 clades was already found long before Islam or any European migrations/conquests.

NAI002/NAI003; 50 BC-100 AD*; Naimaa Tolgoi, Arkhangai Aimag; Mongolia; Late Xiongnu; R1a1a1b1-Z283>Z282>Y17491>YP4858>pre-Y190984


How did it become part of Xiongnu , was it originally Xiongnu clade?

Each study lists has various different haplogroups may be the are from different time periods I believe.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xiongnu#Genetics

Was or could this clade carried by Huns who atacked Sasanian empire?


In the fourth century various central Asian tribes began to attack the Persian Sasanian Empire. The sources sometimes call these people 'Huns', but their origin is unclear. It is probable that they were not related to the Huns who appeared on the south Russian steppe about 375 and attacked the Roman Empire.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iranian_Huns

Don’t know when Kidarites attcked Sassanid if Baloch was part of them, as per this map some part of it was during their greatest time

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sasanian_Empire#/media/File:The_Sasanian_Empire_at_its_apex_under_Khosrow _II.svg

But, this doesn’t explain why it is not found among Afghan, may be will be found in future with more people testing?

altvred
06-02-2021, 09:10 AM
How did it become part of Xiongnu , was it originally Xiongnu clade?

Each study lists has various different haplogroups may be the are from different time periods I believe.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xiongnu#Genetics

Was or could this clade carried by Huns who atacked Sasanian empire?



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iranian_Huns

Don’t know when Kidarites attcked Sassanid if Baloch was part of them, as per this map some part of it was during their greatest time

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sasanian_Empire#/media/File:The_Sasanian_Empire_at_its_apex_under_Khosrow _II.svg

But, this doesn’t explain why it is not found among Afghan, may be will be found in future with more people testing?

The ancient individual in question and his very speculative designation by the publishers of the paper as a 'Sarmatian' have been brought up several times already (https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?22116-Srubnaya-R1a-clades&p=760013&viewfull=1#post760013) on this forum.

It's very likely that his paternal line was Kangju in origin, which would explain the presence of this haplogroup in Pakistan and the Pamirs.

discreetmaverick
06-03-2021, 08:44 PM
The ancient individual in question and his very speculative designation by the publishers of the paper as a 'Sarmatian' have been brought up several times already (https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?22116-Srubnaya-R1a-clades&p=760013&viewfull=1#post760013) on this forum.

It's very likely that his paternal line was Kangju in origin, which would explain the presence of this haplogroup in Pakistan and the Pamirs.

Can you correct me where I am wrong,


Admixture modeling confirms the presence of a Sarmatian-related gene pool among the late Xiongnu: three individuals (UGU010, TMI001, BUR003) are indistinguishable from Sarmatian, two individuals (DUU001, BUR002) are admixed between Sarmatian and BMAC, three individuals (UGU005, UGU006, BRL002) are admixed between Sarmatian and Ulaanzuukh_SlabGrave, and three individuals (NAI001, BUR004, HUD001) require Sarmatian, BMAC, and Ulaanzuukh_SlabGrave (Figure 3D; Figure S4D; Table S5G).

Sarmatian here is Sogdian/Kangju/Central Asian

They are likely Kangju/Sogdian/Central Asian based HW results, who are descendants of recent immigrants with Xiongnu input as the person HW results close to Pamir.

Could they be descendants of Sogdian Buddhist missionaries/scholars and/or traders?


The rulers of the nomadic empires such as the Xiongnu(209 BC – 93 AD), Xianbei(93 AD - 234), RouranKhaganate (late 4th c. - middle 6th c.) and the Göktürks(middle first mill. AD) received missionaries and built temples for them.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhism_in_Mongolia

A Sogdian Colony in Inner Mongolia

As per this article, A Sogdian colony had exited in the 6th century.



The men of Sogdiana, says the New T'ang History, "have gone
wherever profit is to be found". Pre-eminently traders, but
also carriers of arts and crafts and of new religions, they travelled
and settled not only along the trade routes of Central Asia but also
deep in the interior of China and among the nomads of the steppes.


https://www.jstor.org/stable/4527336?seq=1#metadata_info_tab_contents

As eminent traders, they could have some presence during the 1st century BC too. ?

discreetmaverick
06-07-2021, 05:46 PM
@Coldmountains


India has been underrepresented in genome-wide surveys of human variation. We analyze 25 diverse groups to provide strong evidence for two ancient populations, genetically divergent, that are ancestral to most Indians today. One, the “Ancestral North Indians” (ANI), is genetically close to Middle Easterners, Central Asians, and Europeans, while the other, the “Ancestral South Indians” (ASI), is as distinct from ANI and East Asians as they are from each other.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2842210/


Centrel Asian ancestry should have formed significant component to be considered part of the ANI and a significant uni parental marker should also be associated with it as well, right?

There would be couple of Y-DNA and Mt-dna that would be associated with central Asian component of ANI and wouldn’t 2123 be a significant or one of the significant uni parental marker for the central Asian component?

Doesn’t this indicate, It was already present in central/SC Asia before Aryan, became part of South asia with different migrations through/from Central/SC Asia with initially Aryan, whenever and wherever they came from, subsequently with Greco-Bactrian/Saka(Sogdian)/Kushan/Hun in varying propotions based on the genetic impact each did.

Coldmountains
06-07-2021, 06:06 PM
@Coldmountains



https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2842210/


Centrel Asian ancestry should have formed significant component to be considered part of the ANI and a significant uni parental marker should also be associated with it as well, right?

There would be couple of Y-DNA and Mt-dna that would be associated with central Asian component of ANI and wouldn’t 2123 be a significant or one of the significant uni parental marker for the central Asian component?

Doesn’t this indicate, It was already present in central/SC Asia before Aryan, became part of South asia with different migrations through/from Central/SC Asia with initially Aryan, whenever and wherever they came from, subsequently with Greco-Bactrian/Saka(Sogdian)/Kushan/Hun in varying propotions based on the genetic impact each did.

Z2123 and generally Z93 not existed east of the Urals before 2200 B.C so it can be pretty much excluded it existed before Aryans in Central Asia or South Asia. This is the earliest Z2123 sample found so far from Potapovka and it is just a usual Fatyanovo/CWC/Sintashta clone. You will see more of such genetic CWC-like samples with Z2123 in Abashevo with maybe some pre-Aryan Steppe_EBA/WSHG admix in some cases

Distance to: RUS_Potapovka_MLBA:I0419
0.02251492 KAZ_Aktogai_MLBA
0.02269314 RUS_Krasnoyarsk_MLBA
0.02310170 KAZ_Maitan_MLBA_Alakul
0.02318484 KAZ_Kairan_MLBA
0.02376479 RUS_Sintashta_MLBA
0.02605586 Corded_Ware_CZE
0.02607273 RUS_Srubnaya_Alakul_MLBA
0.02682246 RUS_Srubnaya_MLBA
0.02774414 KAZ_Kyzlbulak_MLBA1
0.02898575 UKR_MBA
0.02924232 RUS_Fatyanovo_BA
0.02928051 KAZ_Shoendykol_MLBA_Fedorovo
0.02996592 RUS_Sintashta_MLBA_contam
0.03235286 UZB_Kashkarchi_BA
0.03289880 SWE_Battle_Axe
0.03431084 KAZ_Lisakovskiy_MLBA_Alakul
0.03497356 Corded_Ware_POL
0.03536691 POL_Chlopice_Vesele_Culture
0.03546200 KAZ_Bylkyldak_MLBA
0.03550623 BGR_MLBA
0.03571390 KAZ_Mys_MLBA
0.03594635 TJK_Dashti_Kozy_BA
0.03622062 KAZ_Chanchar_LBA
0.03671092 KAZ_Oy_Dzhaylau_MLBA
0.03723493 UZB_Kokcha_BA

Also Z2123 is found in Brahmins but under branches that diverged from Saka Z2123 before 2200 B.C so there is not much overlap here. Z2123 is older than the formation of Proto-Aryans and was present in various Proto-Aryan subgroups.

discreetmaverick
06-07-2021, 08:12 PM
Z2123 and generally Z93 not existed east of the Urals before 2200 B.C so it can be pretty much excluded it existed before Aryans in Central Asia or South Asia. This is the earliest Z2123 sample found so far from Potapovka and it is just a usual Fatyanovo/CWC/Sintashta clone. You will see more of such genetic CWC-like samples with Z2123 in Abashevo with maybe some pre-Aryan Steppe_EBA/WSHG admix in some cases

Distance to: RUS_Potapovka_MLBA:I0419
0.02251492 KAZ_Aktogai_MLBA
0.02269314 RUS_Krasnoyarsk_MLBA
0.02310170 KAZ_Maitan_MLBA_Alakul
0.02318484 KAZ_Kairan_MLBA
0.02376479 RUS_Sintashta_MLBA
0.02605586 Corded_Ware_CZE
0.02607273 RUS_Srubnaya_Alakul_MLBA
0.02682246 RUS_Srubnaya_MLBA
0.02774414 KAZ_Kyzlbulak_MLBA1
0.02898575 UKR_MBA
0.02924232 RUS_Fatyanovo_BA
0.02928051 KAZ_Shoendykol_MLBA_Fedorovo
0.02996592 RUS_Sintashta_MLBA_contam
0.03235286 UZB_Kashkarchi_BA
0.03289880 SWE_Battle_Axe
0.03431084 KAZ_Lisakovskiy_MLBA_Alakul
0.03497356 Corded_Ware_POL
0.03536691 POL_Chlopice_Vesele_Culture
0.03546200 KAZ_Bylkyldak_MLBA
0.03550623 BGR_MLBA
0.03571390 KAZ_Mys_MLBA
0.03594635 TJK_Dashti_Kozy_BA
0.03622062 KAZ_Chanchar_LBA
0.03671092 KAZ_Oy_Dzhaylau_MLBA
0.03723493 UZB_Kokcha_BA

Also Z2123 is found in Brahmins but under branches that diverged from Saka Z2123 before 2200 B.C so there is not much overlap here. Z2123 is older than the formation of Proto-Aryans and was present in various Proto-Aryan subgroups.

Found this online, not sure how accurate

https://i.postimg.cc/Fs6XXNJY/Edj-RHce-Wk-AUE-RW.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

https://twitter.com/cerkessk/status/1286007637650354178/photo/1

There are South Asians under clade of both Wusun and Saka,

Wusun may actually be the Huna,?


The Wusun then became close allies of the Han dynasty and remained a powerful force in the region for several centuries. The Wusun are last mentioned by the Chinese as having settled in the Pamir Mountains in the 5th century AD due to pressure from the Rouran.


At the same time, Hephthalite mentioned of having Summer residence in Badakshan/Pamir, as well entering possibly South Asia through Pamir mountains.



Song Yun and Hui Zheng, who visited the chief of the Hephthalite nomads at his summer residence in Badakshan and later in Gandhara, observed that they had no belief in the Buddhist law and served a large number of divinities."[19]



The Hephthalites may have came from the East, through the Pamir Mountains, possibly from the area of Badakshan.[40] Alternatively, they may have migrated from the Altai region, among the waves of invading Huns.[41]

discreetmaverick
06-10-2021, 02:01 PM
The only (indirect) connection between Indo-Aryans and these Balkan people are PII Abashevo (Don subgroup)/Srubnaya moving into the western steppes and influencing the ancestors of Proto-Greeks and Proto-Balan-IEs. BGR_MLBA is derived from one of these western waves but seemingly was not Z94 (thought he was Z2124+ but this seems wrong and he is basal Z93*)

Unfortunately, ancient Indo-Aryans of the Steppes and BMAC were not found in ancient DNA yet or we can not detect them for now because of too low coverage of some samples. Surely most come from Abashevo and Andronovo but how exactly they arrived in Central Asia and South Asia is not clear yet. Most archaeologists would say via Bishkent-Vaksh<Andronovo-Fedorovo<Sintashta-Petrovka<Abashevo but we have not found clear Indo-Aryan Y-DNA in Sintashta yet maybe we just tested the wrong sites and were unlucky or the actual Indo-Aryan subgroup of Andronovo was not found or classified so far. Also it seems for me that most Sintashta sites and especially even younger Fedorovo are too young to be ancestral to people like Mitanni Indo-Aryans and Bishkent-Vaksh around 1500-1700 B.C but we have to keep in mind that there was rapid migration of very similar people during this period so Sintashta, Fedrovo and other Andronovo subgroups/sites may include a bit older Indo-Aryans layers and younger Iranic layers which are lumped together because they were archaeologically very similar and related.

One recently uploaded Sintashta sample on Yfull is actually not so distant to Indo-Aryans in terms of Y-DNA. He is under Y874* found among South Asians too with a TMRCA of 1800 B.C which definitely is an underestimate because the sample itself is almost o old but still, with the usual 10-15% underestimation of Yfull it is around 2000-2500 B.C so shared a very recent ancestor with likely Proto-Indo-Aryans much more recent than with most Saka-Siberian Z93 clades which diverged earlier from it.

https://www.yfull.com/live/tree/R-Y874/

Continuing here,

If this subclade was part of Indo-Aryan ethnogenesis, then wherever it is found shouldn’t 657 should also be present in significantly higher numbers compared to this clade?

It is being found in Mari, Dari, Kerman, Czech, Georgia, Southern Uzbek, Italy, Henan, liaoning, Bejing. Chuvash, Tatar, Turkmen

with an ancient sample, 3700 years ago in Chelyabinsk_Oblast


Map of Ancient Silk Road


https://i.postimg.cc/Y074tpYX/1920px-Seidenstrasse-GMT.jpg (https://postimages.org/)


There is not a single sample present above countries that were part of ancient silk road for R-L657 and no sample beyond Xinjiang.

https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-L657/

Doesn’t this sub clade(R-Y874) distribution look clearly different from L657 ?

Coldmountains
06-10-2021, 02:56 PM
Continuing here,

If this subclade was part of Indo-Aryan ethnogenesis, then wherever it is found shouldn’t 657 should also be present in significantly higher numbers compared to this clade?

It is being found in Mari, Dari, Kerman, Czech, Georgia, Southern Uzbek, Italy, Henan, liaoning, Bejing. Chuvash, Tatar, Turkmen

with an ancient sample, 3700 years ago in Chelyabinsk_Oblast


Map of Ancient Silk Road


https://i.postimg.cc/Y074tpYX/1920px-Seidenstrasse-GMT.jpg (https://postimages.org/)


There is not a single sample present above countries that were part of ancient silk road for R-L657 and no sample beyond Xinjiang.

https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-L657/

Doesn’t this sub clade distribution look clearly different from L657 ?

Z2123 and L657 are 4500-5000 years old maybe even a bit older so I don't understand your point. Not all Z2123 subclades participated in the Indo-Aryan ethnogenesis around 2000-2500 B.C. Some were more in the west and were ancestral to Srubnaya (Para-Indo-Iranians?) and Iranics. Also we had so much founder effects and replacement in these regions so that modern-day R1a-Z93 clades are not in any way representative for Z93 around 2000 B.C. I am not saying that all Z2123 was Indo-Aryan only specific subclades of Z2123 which are today restricted to Indo-Aryans and Iranics with Indo-Aryan ancestry. These specific Indo-Aryan Z2123 clades diverged around 2000-2500 B.C from Iranic Z2123 clades so many Z2123 tribes will not show any L657 if they were Iranic or Para-Indo-Iranian speaking.

discreetmaverick
06-10-2021, 03:01 PM
Z2123 and L657 are 4500-5000 years old maybe even a bit older so I don't understand your point. Not all Z2123 subclades participated in the Indo-Aryan ethnogenesis around 2000-2500 B.C. Some were more in the west and were ancestral to Srubnaya (Para-Indo-Iranians?) and Iranics. Also we had so much founder effects and replacement in these regions so that modern-day R1a-Z93 clades are not in any way representative for Z93 around 2000 B.C. I am not saying that all Z2123 was Indo-Aryan only specific subclades of Z2123 which are today restricted to Indo-Aryans and Iranics with Indo-Aryan ancestry. These specific Indo-Aryan Z2123 clades diverged around 2000-2500 B.C from Iranic Z2123 clades so many Z2123 tribes will not show any L657 if they were Iranic or Para-Indo-Iranian speaking.

It was not basing on Z2123 as a whole, but the clade you suggested

https://www.yfull.com/live/tree/R-Y874/