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jkotl0327
10-31-2020, 06:52 PM
About what percent of Yemeni Jewish ancestry is Jewish vs Arabian? I've been reading conflicting numbers.

StillWater
11-01-2020, 01:25 AM
Good question. As usual, depends on what you pick as a proxy for Jewish and what you pick as a proxy for Arabian. That aside, there will certainly be regional variation. One thing is clear right now - they cannot be fully Arabian or fully Israelite.

jkotl0327
11-01-2020, 04:58 PM
Good question. As usual, depends on what you pick as a proxy for Jewish and what you pick as a proxy for Arabian. That aside, there will certainly be regional variation. One thing is clear right now - they cannot be fully Arabian or fully Israelite.

I mean approximately, is it fair to say that they have close to the amount of Jewish as most Ashkenazim and Sephardim or would that be a stretch?

maroco
11-01-2020, 05:12 PM
I thought itís all the same thing. I can model myself with a Jewish or Arab proxy

CyrylBojarski
11-01-2020, 06:12 PM
Yemeni Jews are more Arabian, than Jewish, because they admixed with locals and have small Jewish genetic.

There are results of Yemenite Jew with non-Jewish Yemen samples and Jewish populations on G25

Target: Yemenite_Jew
Distance: 1.3008% / 0.01300757
48.0 Yemenite_Al_Jawf
43.0 Yemenite_Ma'rib
6.4 Samaritan
1.8 Yemenite_Mahra
0.8 Yemenite_Al_Bayda


Target: Yemenite_Jew
Distance: 1.3080% / 0.01307964
47.0 Yemenite_Al_Jawf
44.8 Yemenite_Ma'rib
4.6 Syrian_Jew
3.6 Yemenite_Mahra

As you can see 90%+ of their genetic is non-Jewish

drobbah
11-01-2020, 06:14 PM
Yemeni Jews are probably the purest Yemenis on G25 after the Mehris

StillWater
11-01-2020, 08:11 PM
I mean approximately, is it fair to say that they have close to the amount of Jewish as most Ashkenazim and Sephardim or would that be a stretch?

Stretch, with the possible exception of Adenim.

jkotl0327
11-01-2020, 09:43 PM
I thought it’s all the same thing. I can model myself with a Jewish or Arab proxy

What is all the same thing?

jkotl0327
11-01-2020, 09:43 PM
Yemeni Jews are probably the purest Yemenis on G25 after the Mehris

That doesn't seem realistic based on uniparentals.

jkotl0327
11-01-2020, 09:46 PM
Yemeni Jews are more Arabian, than Jewish, because they admixed with locals and have small Jewish genetic.

There are results of Yemenite Jew with non-Jewish Yemen samples and Jewish populations on G25

Target: Yemenite_Jew
Distance: 1.3008% / 0.01300757
48.0 Yemenite_Al_Jawf
43.0 Yemenite_Ma'rib
6.4 Samaritan
1.8 Yemenite_Mahra
0.8 Yemenite_Al_Bayda


Target: Yemenite_Jew
Distance: 1.3080% / 0.01307964
47.0 Yemenite_Al_Jawf
44.8 Yemenite_Ma'rib
4.6 Syrian_Jew
3.6 Yemenite_Mahra

As you can see 90%+ of their genetic is non-Jewish

I expected a large amount of Yemeni ancestry but certainly not that much. That result doesn't seem to correspond with their haplogroups. I've read various theories, but never something that said they were >90% Arabian.

Targum
11-01-2020, 10:04 PM
Except as someone married into an Israeli Yemenite clan, there are too many Teimanim, starting with my father-in-law obm, who show blondish Ashkenazi looks 40917

I do not believe there are Yemeni Arabs who resemble Ashkenazim, My father in law obm, had to explain his whole life that he really did not speak Yiddish.

CyrylBojarski
11-01-2020, 10:11 PM
I expected a large amount of Yemeni ancestry but certainly not that much. That result doesn't seem to correspond with their haplogroups. I've read various theories, but never something that said they were >90% Arabian.

Well, that is their AuDNA. I have also seen one half Yemenite on this forum who scores 50% Yemenite Jewish category on FTDNA , that means they are mostly Yemenis

The same story is with Ethiopian and Indian Jews

jkotl0327
11-01-2020, 10:30 PM
I don't normally like nitpicking the G25 sample populations, but the results above were quite strange. I ran the Temanim individuals with everything except for Yemen Jew as a source to get an idea of where they stand. I didn't feel like removing Saudi would be appropriate because they could easily have ancestry from ethnically Arabian Jewish tribes who would have been genetically "Saudi." The first thing I noticed is that one of them is 99% Yemeni (combination of 2 Yemeni populations). No northern MENA ancestry at all. I'm not saying that this individual shouldn't be included in the average, but before looking into this I would have laughed if somebody told me that there are Yemeni Jews who are 99% Yemeni and 1% SSA. Another thing I noticed is that about half of them had affinities for populations that are unrealistic like Georgian, Iranian, or even Lithuanian, so I removed those because that is probably misattributed Jewish ancestry. The affinity for the Caucuses was very strange. I ended up deleting every Caucasian population because half the individuals kept gravitating towards them so I'm interested to see what you guys think about that. The individual that had Lithuanian for a few percent also kept choosing NE European groups so I had to delete all of those as well.

I ended up with an average of about 88% Yemeni, 11% various Jewish proxies, and 1% additional SSA. However, if you remove the person with no Jewish at all (again, not saying that is necessarily the correct way to approach this, but just for curiosity's sake), the percentage of Jewish goes up slightly to 12. There was also one person with half as much Jewish as the other 5, removing him makes the Jewish average go up to 14. Still incredibly small numbers. I'm not quite sure what to make of all this.

maroco
11-01-2020, 10:32 PM
An easy way to compare both
Target: Samaritan
Distance: 2.3447% / 0.02344657
50.4 Levantine
27.4 Yemenite_Mahra
19.6 Asia_minor
2.6 Berber

Target: Yemenite_Jew
Distance: 1.8113% / 0.01811311
61.0 Yemenite_Mahra
22.0 Nomadic_Arabs
11.4 Asia_minor
5.2 Egyptian
0.4 Cushitic

jkotl0327
11-01-2020, 10:35 PM
Except as someone married into an Israeli Yemenite clan, there are too many Teimanim, starting with my father-in-law obm, who show blondish Ashkenazi looks 40917

I do not believe there are Yemeni Arabs who resemble Ashkenazim, My father in law obm, had to explain his whole life that he really did not speak Yiddish.

I have seen this as well. Which is why the >90% Arabian figure seems quite frankly impossible to me, but I can't explain the G25 results.

jkotl0327
11-01-2020, 10:37 PM
Well, that is their AuDNA. I have also seen one half Yemenite on this forum who scores 50% Yemenite Jewish category on FTDNA , that means they are mostly Yemenis

The same story is with Ethiopian and Indian Jews

Not sure how much I trust the ftDNA categories but I see what you're saying. I also definitely see what Targum is saying. I'm still not convinced that they are near-pure Arabian Yemenis, but the G25 is certainly interesting.

maroco
11-01-2020, 10:39 PM
Yemeni Jews are probably the purest Yemenis on G25 after the Mehris
No Yemenite_Mahra are the purest yemenis on g25. They are meant to be pure natufian

CyrylBojarski
11-01-2020, 10:41 PM
I don't normally like nitpicking the G25 sample populations, but the results above were quite strange. I ran the Temanim individuals with everything except for Yemen Jew as a source to get an idea of where they stand. I didn't feel like removing Saudi would be appropriate because they could easily have ancestry from ethnically Arabian Jewish tribes who would have been genetically "Saudi." The first thing I noticed is that one of them is 99% Yemeni (combination of 2 Yemeni populations). No northern MENA ancestry at all. I'm not saying that this individual shouldn't be included in the average, but before looking into this I would have laughed if somebody told me that there are Yemeni Jews who are 99% Yemeni and 1% SSA. Another thing I noticed is that about half of them had affinities for populations that are unrealistic like Georgian, Iranian, or even Lithuanian, so I removed those because that is probably misattributed Jewish ancestry. The affinity for the Caucuses was very strange. I ended up deleting every Caucasian population because half the individuals kept gravitating towards them so I'm interested to see what you guys think about that. The individual that had Lithuanian for a few percent also kept choosing NE European groups so I had to delete all of those as well.

I ended up with an average of about 88% Yemeni, 11% various Jewish proxies, and 1% additional SSA. However, if you remove the person with no Jewish at all (again, not saying that is necessarily the correct way to approach this, but just for curiosity's sake), the percentage of Jewish goes up slightly to 12. There was also one person with half as much Jewish as the other 5, removing him makes the Jewish average go up to 14. Still incredibly small numbers. I'm not quite sure what to make of all this.

I think using Samaritan sample is the most realistic because they are Israelites without foreign admixtures

jkotl0327
11-01-2020, 10:41 PM
An easy way to compare both
Target: Samaritan
Distance: 2.3447% / 0.02344657
50.4 Levantine
27.4 Yemenite_Mahra
19.6 Asia_minor
2.6 Berber

Target: Yemenite_Jew
Distance: 1.8113% / 0.01811311
61.0 Yemenite_Mahra
22.0 Nomadic_Arabs
11.4 Asia_minor
5.2 Egyptian
0.4 Cushitic

I'm not sure I understand exactly what the implication is. What are the categories based on? There was once a discussion somewhere on whether the Samaritans may be somewhat more Arabian shifted than the ancient Jews were but what are you saying, that Yemen Jews have 16.6 Mediterranean MENA and Samaritans 70 Mediterranean MENA, so they are ~4-5 times less Mediterranean than Samaritans?

jkotl0327
11-01-2020, 10:44 PM
I think using Samaritan sample is the most realistic because they are Israelites without foreign admixtures

Not sure I'd agree they are "without foreign admixtures" completely but I just didn't feel like forcing half the individuals off Iraq Jews or Beit Sahour if that's what they preferred, deleting those 2 gives about 1% less average Jewish/Samaritan.

Targum
11-01-2020, 10:49 PM
Samaritans have foreign admixture per the Jewish Oral and Written tradition of Samaritan ethnogenesis.

CyrylBojarski
11-01-2020, 10:58 PM
Samaritans have foreign admixture per the Jewish Oral and Written tradition of Samaritan ethnogenesis.

There is probably no modern population, which is descended mainly from Israelites more than Samaritans

drobbah
11-01-2020, 11:00 PM
That doesn't seem realistic based on uniparentals.
Don't know much about the uniparentals of the Yemenite Jews but even that doesn't disprove that the Yemeni Jews mostly descend from converts. As for their autosomal dna,the g25 Yemeni Jews fit within the Yemeni and general Peninsular Arab genetic cluster.


https://i.imgur.com/sgl4dhn.png

Target: Saudi
Distance: 3.5493% / 0.03549275
71.0 Levant_JOR_EBA
23.4 Levant_Natufian
2.4 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
1.8 Somali
1.4 Proto-IranHG_(simulated)

Target: BedouinB
Distance: 3.2122% / 0.03212196
69.0 Levant_JOR_EBA
24.6 Levant_Natufian
3.6 Somali
2.0 Proto-IranHG_(simulated)
0.8 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara



No Yemenite_Mahra are the purest yemenis on g25. They are meant to be pure natufian
Yemenite Mahras are the purest Yemenis with the least foreign admixture besides a few individuals having SE Asian ancestry.They also have the most Natufian ancestry in the MENA + Horn region alongside the BedouinB.

Target: BedouinB
Distance: 4.9296% / 0.04929622
68.6 Levant_Natufian
10.6 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
7.0 Anatolia_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N
6.2 Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kaps
4.0 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
3.6 Proto-IranHG_(simulated)

Target: Yemenite_Mahra
Distance: 5.0733% / 0.05073258
68.4 Levant_Natufian
15.0 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
11.0 Anatolia_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N
2.6 Proto-IranHG_(simulated)
2.2 Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kaps
0.8 Han

Targum
11-01-2020, 11:07 PM
There is probably no modern population, which is descended mainly from Israelites more than Samaritans

True but because of their ethnogenesis and syncretism, they will always be cultural stepchildren to mainstream Israelite culture, i.e. The Hebrew Bible , Oral and Written Torah, which does not include them. They are recognized as kin, however require formal Halakhic conversion like any other Gentile. Indeed this occurs in Israel today from time to time, as does the reverse, a Jewish woman marries and becomes a Samaritan.

maroco
11-01-2020, 11:22 PM
I'm not sure I understand exactly what the implication is. What are the categories based on? There was once a discussion somewhere on whether the Samaritans may be somewhat more Arabian shifted than the ancient Jews were but what are you saying, that Yemen Jews have 16.6 Mediterranean MENA and Samaritans 70 Mediterranean MENA, so they are ~4-5 times less Mediterranean than Samaritans?
Well you need to start it by looking at your Neolithic ancestry, letís compare you to Lebanese Christian.
4091840919
Of course you are gonna be more Levantine simply because you have EEF admixture whereas Yemeni mahra and Yemeni jews are closer to pure natufian with little to no EEF admixture.

jkotl0327
11-01-2020, 11:59 PM
Don't know much about the uniparentals of the Yemenite Jews but even that doesn't disprove that the Yemeni Jews mostly descend from converts. As for their autosomal dna,the g25 Yemeni Jews fit within the Yemeni and general Peninsular Arab genetic cluster.


https://i.imgur.com/sgl4dhn.png

Target: Saudi
Distance: 3.5493% / 0.03549275
71.0 Levant_JOR_EBA
23.4 Levant_Natufian
2.4 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
1.8 Somali
1.4 Proto-IranHG_(simulated)

Target: BedouinB
Distance: 3.2122% / 0.03212196
69.0 Levant_JOR_EBA
24.6 Levant_Natufian
3.6 Somali
2.0 Proto-IranHG_(simulated)
0.8 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara



Yemenite Mahras are the purest Yemenis with the least foreign admixture besides a few individuals having SE Asian ancestry.They also have the most Natufian ancestry in the MENA + Horn region alongside the BedouinB.

Target: BedouinB
Distance: 4.9296% / 0.04929622
68.6 Levant_Natufian
10.6 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
7.0 Anatolia_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N
6.2 Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kaps
4.0 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
3.6 Proto-IranHG_(simulated)

Target: Yemenite_Mahra
Distance: 5.0733% / 0.05073258
68.4 Levant_Natufian
15.0 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
11.0 Anatolia_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N
2.6 Proto-IranHG_(simulated)
2.2 Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kaps
0.8 Han

You're right, it does not disprove that they are "mostly" descended from Arabians, as in over 50 or 60 percent, but the model you have there for example makes them look like average Yemenis, or over 90% Yemeni, which does seem to be disproved by their uniparentals.

jkotl0327
11-02-2020, 12:03 AM
Well you need to start it by looking at your Neolithic ancestry, let’s compare you to Lebanese Christian.
4091840919
Of course you are gonna be more Levantine simply because you have EEF admixture whereas Yemeni mahra and Yemeni jews are closer to pure natufian with little to no EEF admixture.

Ok, but how does it work that the Yemenis get 20% Iberomaurusian? Also, were you trying to say I am more Levantine than Yemeni Jews or Lebanese Christians?

hartaisarlag
11-02-2020, 03:08 AM
You're right, it does not disprove that they are "mostly" descended from Arabians, as in over 50 or 60 percent, but the model you have there for example makes them look like average Yemenis, or over 90% Yemeni, which does seem to be disproved by their uniparentals.

Is there a good resource on Yemenite Jewish uniparentals?

jkotl0327
11-02-2020, 03:18 AM
Is there a good resource on Yemenite Jewish uniparentals?

Yeah there are some studies. Behar looks at over 100 Temanim I believe. I can look into it more but one example seems to be HV1 on the mtdna that I just randomly picked. It's 10% in Temanim and is definitely present with other Jewish groups, notably Georgian Jewish, but Yemeni Arabs have something like a 1% frequency for it. I don't know the specifics but I remember reading about a large number of Temani haplogroups that are non-Arabian and non-SSA in origin, likely Jewish.

passenger
11-02-2020, 03:19 AM
Is there a good resource on Yemenite Jewish uniparentals?

For mtDNA there's this old article (https://www.researchgate.net/publication/45152565_Mitochondrial_DNA_Reveals_Distinct_Evolut ionary_Histories_for_Jewish_Populations_in_Yemen_a nd_Ethiopia). Not sure if there's anything more recent.

Their conclusion was that:


Our mitochondrial DNA study of Jewish populations in the HOA and Arabia sheds light on the history of two religiously defined groups formed relatively recently in these geographic regions. We found no identical haplo-types shared between Yemenite and Ethiopian Jewish populations despite their geographic proximity. Our data on Yemenite Jews suggest possible maternal descent from ancient Israeli exiles, and also demonstrate shared African and Middle Eastern ancestry with little evidence for large-scale conversion of local Yemeni. In contrast, our data on Ethiopian Jews suggest maternal descent primarily from the local Ethiopian population.

drobbah
11-02-2020, 03:26 AM
You're right, it does not disprove that they are "mostly" descended from Arabians, as in over 50 or 60 percent, but the model you have there for example makes them look like average Yemenis, or over 90% Yemeni, which does seem to be disproved by their uniparentals.
They are average Yemenis/Arabians just like the Ethiopian Jews are regular Northern Horners.It's a fact that can't be denied whether you use admixture tools like nmonte or pca plots.It's clear they are an indigenous Arabian population

jkotl0327
11-02-2020, 03:35 AM
They are average Yemenis/Arabians just like the Ethiopian Jews are regular Northern Horners. It's a fact that can't be denied whether you use admixture tools like nmonte or pca plots.It's clear they are an indigenous Arabian population

So far, the autosomal evidence seems to be in your favor, I can't deny that, as the G25 models seem to show them to be 85-90% Arabian, not 99 or 100 percent like the Ethiopian Jews though. There are still lingering questions however as to why that doesn't match information about haplogroups and phenotypes (not to dwell too much into the latter, I'm more interested in the former). Articles on haplogroups, like the one mentioned by Passenger and the Behar article I mentioned seem to support a relatively large percentage of Jewish haplogroups among the Temanim.

passenger
11-02-2020, 04:36 AM
They are average Yemenis/Arabians just like the Ethiopian Jews are regular Northern Horners.It's a fact that can't be denied whether you use admixture tools like nmonte or pca plots.It's clear they are an indigenous Arabian population

Have you found studies on this or is this based on G25 samples?

Studies like Behar et al. (https://www.nature.com/articles/nature09103#MOESM300) and the Non et al. article I referred to in my previous post seem to indicate a stronger connection between Yemenite Jews and other Jews and a greater distance between Yemenite Jews and the non-Jewish "host population" than is the case with Ethiopian Jews. Non et al. base this only on mtDNA markers, but Behar et al's findings are also autosomal and Yemenite Jews in their plot are considerably closer to other Jewish clusters than non-Jewish Yemenis.

Granted, I'm sure Behar's plots have flaws, but I'm also loath to completely trust in G25, when it's based on so few samples. There are also differences between their individual samples, with a couple individuals showing considerably higher affinities with Levantine populations than others.

Of course I agree that Yemenite Jews on the whole are extremely similar to their non-Jewish neighbors, but I don't think we can categorically state that they are identical. Plus, we always have to remember that influences go in multiple directions. Are we sure that early Yemenite Jews didn't leave some autosomal mark on surrounding, now non-Jewish, populations which might complicate attempts to compare and contrast the two?

jkotl0327
11-02-2020, 04:43 AM
Have you found studies on this or is this based on G25 samples?

Studies like Behar et al. (https://www.nature.com/articles/nature09103#MOESM300) and the Non et al. article I referred to in my previous post seem to indicate a stronger connection between Yemenite Jews and other Jews and a greater distance between Yemenite Jews and the non-Jewish "host population" than is the case with Ethiopian Jews. Non et al. base this only on mtDNA markers, but Behar et al's findings are also autosomal and Yemenite Jews in their plot are considerably closer to other Jewish clusters than non-Jewish Yemenis.

Granted, I'm sure Behar's plots have flaws, but I'm also loath to completely trust in G25, when it's based on so few samples. There are also differences between their individual samples, with a couple individuals showing considerably higher affinities with Levantine populations than others.

Right, I mentioned the differences earlier, one individual scored 99% Yemeni which just doesn't seem at all realistic. I wonder where the samples came from. Even the ones on the higher side though were something like 17% which still seems pretty low. I can't say Drobbah's conclusion that Yemeni Jews are mostly Arabian is wrong based on that data at least. He based it on G25.

drobbah
11-02-2020, 04:58 AM
Have you found studies on this or is this based on G25 samples?

Studies like Behar et al. (https://www.nature.com/articles/nature09103#MOESM300) and the Non et al. article I referred to in my previous post seem to indicate a stronger connection between Yemenite Jews and other Jews and a greater distance between Yemenite Jews and the non-Jewish "host population" than is the case with Ethiopian Jews. Non et al. base this only on mtDNA markers, but Behar et al's findings are also autosomal and Yemenite Jews in their plot are considerably closer to other Jewish clusters than non-Jewish Yemenis.

Granted, I'm sure Behar's plots have flaws, but I'm also loath to completely trust in G25, when it's based on so few samples. There are also differences between their individual samples, with a couple individuals showing considerably higher affinities with Levantine populations than others.

Of course I agree that Yemenite Jews on the whole are extremely similar to their non-Jewish neighbors, but I don't think we can categorically state that they are identical. Plus, we always have to remember that influences go in multiple directions. Are we sure that early Yemenite Jews didn't leave some autosomal mark on surrounding, now non-Jewish, populations which might complicate attempts to compare and contrast the two?
Unless Jews magically affected the entire gene pool of Arabia, I see no autosomal evidence of an Israelite or recent Levantine input among the Yemeni Jews compared to the other Arabian samples we have.

I don't doubt that there will be Jewish uniparentals among the Yemenite Jews unlike the Beta Israel but the number of Israelite Jews were probably not large enough or endogamous enough to not be drowned out by the locals.Don't we have historical evidence of a large section of Yemeni society becoming Jewish once they Himyarite kings adopt Judaism as their official religon?

talombo
11-02-2020, 05:00 AM
To you think that the Temanim are descendants of the people of the Himyarite Kingdom (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Himyarite_Kingdom) ?

jkotl0327
11-02-2020, 05:03 AM
Unless Jews magically affected the entire gene pool of Arabia, I see no autosomal evidence of an Israelite or recent Levantine input among the Yemeni Jews compared to the other Arabian samples we have.

I don't doubt that there will be Jewish uniparentals among the Yemenite Jews unlike the Beta Israel but the number of Israelite Jews were probably not large enough or endogamous enough to not be drowned out by the locals.Don't we have historical evidence of a large section of Yemeni society becoming Jewish once they Himyarite kings adopt Judaism as their official religon?

If I can figure out that there is something with the samples I'll get back to you, so far, I can't argue with you on the autosomal. A somewhat large section of Arabs converted during the Himyarite age but probably not enough to make this kind of impact of >90% Arabian. Also, I should note that the uniparentals of the Yemeni Jews can't be compared to Beta Israel, Yemeni Jews have a much higher frequency of Levantine uniparentals, or we wouldn't be having this conversation. Finally, Muhammad converted a very large number of Jews during the Islamic expansion in Arabia, there was a very large Jewish population there, so who knows, maybe the Jews did make some genetic impact on the Peninsular Arabs :)

passenger
11-02-2020, 05:10 AM
Unless Jews magically affected the entire gene pool of Arabia, I see no autosomal evidence of an Israelite or recent Levantine input among the Yemeni Jews compared to the other Arabian samples we have.

I don't doubt that there will be Jewish uniparentals among the Yemenite Jews unlike the Beta Israel but the number of Israelite Jews were probably not large enough or endogamous enough to not be drowned out by the locals.Don't we have historical evidence of a large section of Yemeni society becoming Jewish once they Himyarite kings adopt Judaism as their official religon?

Could you please clarify what you are basing your conclusions on though? I'm inclined to agree with you on the whole, but if you're basing this off of G25, you're not addressing the issues which I raised concerning the limits and discrepancies in available samples. And what do you make of Behar's findings? Should we just throw them out?

Don't get me wrong, I'm just raising points for discussion here. I'm certainly no expert in these matters, I'm just suspicious of categorical statements when it seems like there's room for nuance and further exploration.

jkotl0327
11-02-2020, 05:53 AM
Other than G25, I recently stumbled upon a few Yemeni Jewish 23andme that seem to support an 88% Peninsular, 12% Jewish split. The location specified for the Arabian seems to always be Aden, Yemen in these few cases I’ve seen. Now this could be explained if 23andme includes Yemeni Jews in the Peninsular Arabian reference population, but if not then that seems like very strong evidence for Yemeni Jews being mostly Arabian, which still doesn’t make sense considering the haplogroups.

leorcooper19
11-02-2020, 06:17 AM
NGS-level testing of Teimanim from Behar et al. 2017:
ERS1789489 in https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-BY10872/
ERS1789490 in https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z18271/
ERS1789528 in https://www.yfull.com/tree/Q-Y37884/
ERS1789486 in https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Y141290/
ERS1789487 in https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y125250/
ERS1789477 in https://www.yfull.com/tree/G-Z26335/

They also used two existing samples in their paper that were from Karmin et al. 2015, both "J1b".

One of these is obviously Jewish (J-Z18271). Another is very likely natively Yemeni (E-Y141290). The rest could go either way, but are really oddly not Levantine/Arabic at all. Headscratcher for sure. Now, I have no idea if this is a random sample of Teimanim, but statistically speaking it probably is near impossible to achieve a similar spread of Ys in another Yemeni group, even given the size of n=6.

Obviously we can only work with the samples we have, but I feel like our Yemeni Jewish reference may be flawed overall (as jkotl0327 showed). I'd say 85% indigenous and 15% Jewish makes sense, with Ys being the most representative of this non-indigenous ancestry.

leorcooper19
11-02-2020, 06:27 AM
Drobbah can you run the individual Teimani samples in your model with Levant_JOR_EBA?

CyrylBojarski
11-02-2020, 10:36 AM
An easy way to compare both
Target: Samaritan
Distance: 2.3447% / 0.02344657
50.4 Levantine
27.4 Yemenite_Mahra
19.6 Asia_minor
2.6 Berber

Target: Yemenite_Jew
Distance: 1.8113% / 0.01811311
61.0 Yemenite_Mahra
22.0 Nomadic_Arabs
11.4 Asia_minor
5.2 Egyptian
0.4 Cushitic

What do you use as Levantine and as Asia Minor? Is it your model?

maroco
11-02-2020, 11:24 AM
What do you use as Levantine and as Asia Minor? Is it your model?
Yes it’s my model the Levantine sample is Lebanese Christian I handpicked the purest individuals and Asia Minor is Turkish

Ignis90
11-02-2020, 01:39 PM
Aren't Yemeni Jews showing some structure? I don't think the available samples are representative of all Temanim, if my memory is correct, I came across a Yemeni Jew with more mixed results (commercial tests), including minor "exotic" ancestry (maybe Adenite).

That being said, it's quite clear the available Temanim behave mostly like indigenous Arabians. It's very likely though they descend from a couple of actual Jews from the Levant but that might be too distant to detect.
Would be also interesting to explore possible links with Mesopotamian Jewry and later historical exchanges with other Jewish communities, especially during the Islamic Era.
In any case, Temanim are clearly Jewish in terms of religion, culture, traditions, identity, linguistically (Hebrew for liturgy) and continuity of practice, which is not something we can say about Ethiopian Jews.

Targum
11-02-2020, 04:25 PM
Aren't Yemeni Jews showing some structure? I don't think the available samples are representative of all Temanim, if my memory is correct, I came across a Yemeni Jew with more mixed results (commercial tests), including minor "exotic" ancestry (maybe Adenite).

That being said, it's quite clear the available Temanim behave mostly like indigenous Arabians. It's very likely though they descend from a couple of actual Jews from the Levant but that might be too distant to detect.
Would be also interesting to explore possible links with Mesopotamian Jewry and later historical exchanges with other Jewish communities, especially during the Islamic Era.
In any case, Temanim are clearly Jewish in terms of religion, culture, traditions, identity, linguistically (Hebrew for liturgy) and continuity of practice, which is not something we can say about Ethiopian Jews.

There is no mystery, Ignis. The Teimanim, unlike Beta Israel, were never isolated or cut off from world Jewry. Yemenite scholars participated in and authored parts of the Responsa Literature of evolving Jewish law (שאלות ותשובות "She'elot uTeshuvot" "Questions and Answers") and maintained a prolific Hebrew literary output through the centuries. Emissaries from the Land of Israel ( שליחים shelihhim) visited Yemen just like they visited Poland, Morocco, or the 13 US colonies and subsequently the USA starting in the 18th century. They had particularly close contacts with the Jews in Israel, Egypt, and Baghdad, with some Yemenite Jews were involved in the India trade, and kept written records.

India Traders of the Middle Ages: Documents From the Cairo Geniza (ISBN 9789004154728), 2008 (also known as "India Book") Shelomo Dov Goitein

drobbah
11-02-2020, 09:45 PM
Drobbah can you run the individual Teimani samples in your model with Levant_JOR_EBA?
https://i.imgur.com/UL134Zb.png


Do Samaritans have Arabian admixture? or are they mostly of Canaanite origin?
https://i.imgur.com/GpkfYUt.jpg

leorcooper19
11-02-2020, 11:19 PM
Do Samaritans have Arabian admixture? or are they mostly of Canaanite origin?

I believe the consensus is that Samaritans are mostly descendants of Canaanites with some pre-Greek Egyptian admix. I feel comfortable in using them here mostly to judge how strong a sample wants to pull north, relative to others. Using Lebanese Christians here creates a similar effect. Modeling certain Yemenis and Teimanim with both other Yemeni groups and Lebanese Christian yield the interesting result of 'Amranis getting the highest LC-like score of 22.4, followed by the four Teimani samples I can believe are fully Teimani (4938, 4960, 4684, 4695) who score from 19 to 10, then slow decrease down until samples consistently score 0.

What is known about 'Amranis and how they differ from other Yemenis?

Here is an averaged reference for those four specific individuals above for general use: Teimani_refined_average,0.05520425,0.14522075,-0.0641105,-0.113293,-0.010925,-0.04538925,-0.014688,-0.01038425,0.0462735,-0.00560375,0.00949975,-0.0254775,0.0531835,0.00289,0.00285025,0.01601025,-0.0204705,0.00297725,0.00223125,0.0273255,0.00992, 0.012891,-0.00468325,0.00539225,-0.00748425

jkotl0327
11-03-2020, 01:00 AM
Yes it’s my model the Levantine sample is Lebanese Christian I handpicked the purest individuals and Asia Minor is Turkish

See that’s something i noticed too, the samples seem to want to choose N MENA over Levantine. In my case Caucasian populations, in your case Turkish. But I don’t see why this would be.

jkotl0327
11-03-2020, 01:04 AM
https://i.imgur.com/UL134Zb.png


Do Samaritans have Arabian admixture? or are they mostly of Canaanite origin?
https://i.imgur.com/GpkfYUt.jpg


Interesting you got some to be over 20% Samaritan, not sure why that didnít happen in mine. But you see the 3 individuals with way less Samaritan than the others, why this spread? Especially the one with 0 Samaritan, that doesnít seem at all realistic. There is a theory that they may have Arabian admixture from deportation of Arabians to Samaria during Assyrian era.

jkotl0327
11-03-2020, 01:06 AM
I believe the consensus is that Samaritans are mostly descendants of Canaanites with some pre-Greek Egyptian admix. I feel comfortable in using them here mostly to judge how strong a sample wants to pull north, relative to others. Using Lebanese Christians here creates a similar effect. Modeling certain Yemenis and Teimanim with both other Yemeni groups and Lebanese Christian yield the interesting result of 'Amranis getting the highest LC-like score of 22.4, followed by the four Teimani samples I can believe are fully Teimani (4938, 4960, 4684, 4695) who score from 19 to 10, then slow decrease down until samples consistently score 0.

What is known about 'Amranis and how they differ from other Yemenis?

Here is an averaged reference for those four specific individuals above for general use: Teimani_refined_average,0.05520425,0.14522075,-0.0641105,-0.113293,-0.010925,-0.04538925,-0.014688,-0.01038425,0.0462735,-0.00560375,0.00949975,-0.0254775,0.0531835,0.00289,0.00285025,0.01601025,-0.0204705,0.00297725,0.00223125,0.0273255,0.00992, 0.012891,-0.00468325,0.00539225,-0.00748425

On the Western Jews page, there was at one point a discussion about how Samaritans may have received input from both Assyrians and Arabians during the Assyrian conquest, ultimately making them slightly more southern-shifted than the original Israelites, they are probably the best proxy, but what I mean is, jury’s still out.

maroco
11-03-2020, 01:41 AM
See that’s something i noticed too, the samples seem to want to choose N MENA over Levantine. In my case Caucasian populations, in your case Turkish. But I don’t see why this would be.
If you look earlier in the post I compared their Neolithic admixture you would find it interesting

passenger
11-03-2020, 04:27 AM
The Encyclopedia of Jews in the Islamic World has this to say about the origins of Yemeni Jewry:


Jews lived in the Arabian Peninsula for hundreds of years prior to the rise of Islam. The biblical story of the meeting between King Solomon and the Queen of Sheba (claimed to be Yemen) suggests that there were ancient ties between the Arabian kingdom and Israel. A lively movement of Jewish and other traders (dealing mostly in incense and spices) existed along the Hijaz from the time of Nebuchadnezzar, the king of Babylon, and grew stronger during the Persian period. Research indicates that Jews emigrated from Palestine to the Arabian Peninsula even before the destruction of the Second Temple. During the Ḥasmonean period, Judea became too small for its crowded Jewish population. Jewish communities were founded in Damascus, in Antioch, and in the cities of Asia Minor; there were also Jewish settlements throughout the Arabian Peninsula. Following the destruction of the Second Temple (70 C.E.), Jews fled southward from Judea. In the aftermath of the Bar-Kokhba revolt (135), other Jewish emigrants arrived in Arabia. Jews apparently reached Yemen from the northern half of the Arabian Peninsula.

It then goes on to state:


Jewish life in the northern Arabian Peninsula and its encounter with nascent Islam left an impression upon the development of the new religion. In the southern half of the Arabian Peninsula, the Jewish faith also cast its influence upon the population. The first proof of Jewish settlement in Yemen that is available to modern researchers dates only to the third century of the common era. Excavations at Bet Sheʾarim in Israel have revealed graves of Jews from the Kingdom of Ḥimyar (the name of a southern Arab tribe that settled in the mountains south of Habban and extended its rule over Yemen), which arose around the year 115. Scholars have proposed that the Jewish settlement in Yemen preceded the time of the burials at Bet Sheʾarim by at least one hundred years, thus dating it to the second century before the common era.

However, the royal Himyari dynasty only adopted Judaism in the late fourth century CE. So maybe this conversion swelled the numbers of a pre-existing Jewish community? Though, as the Encyclopedia also states, nobody really knows to what extent the royal conversion was limited to the upper echelons of Himyari society and to what extent it generated broader adherence.

I also wonder if Yemen took on Jewish migrants fleeing the Islamic expansion in Arabia before or after the 7th-century fall of Khaybar. Probably most of the Jews of Hijaz ended up converting (or dying) but it also seems likely that some would have fled. The rumors of nomadic Jewish tribes surviving in the region into the late Middle Ages are probably more myth than anything else, but they seem to have roots in an interesting and underexplored earlier history.

jkotl0327
11-03-2020, 05:39 AM
The Encyclopedia of Jews in the Islamic World has this to say about the origins of Yemeni Jewry:



It then goes on to state:



However, the royal Himyari dynasty only adopted Judaism in the late fourth century CE. So maybe this conversion swelled the numbers of a pre-existing Jewish community? Though, as the Encyclopedia also states, nobody really knows to what extent the royal conversion was limited to the upper echelons of Himyari society and to what extent it generated broader adherence.

I also wonder if Yemen took on Jewish migrants fleeing the Islamic expansion in Arabia before or after the 7th-century fall of Khaybar. Probably most of the Jews of Hijaz ended up converting (or dying) but it also seems likely that some would have fled. The rumors of nomadic Jewish tribes surviving in the region into the late Middle Ages are probably more myth than anything else, but they seem to have roots in an interesting and underexplored earlier history.

The stuff about pre Roman exile Jews in Arabia is interesting but I don’t think would have had much impact on the genetics of the majority arriving later. There were always pioneering merchants who went centuries ahead of major Jewish communities’ foundings to various places. The Himyari conversion may have contributed significantly but probably not to the point that all, or even an extremely large percentage of average Yemenis converted (at least in that case many would convert back to Islam and probably never have integrated into the ethnic Jewish population). That would have led to a more noticeable conversion of Yemeni Jews to Islam in particular rather than just regular Pagan Yemenis to Islam which is what is most often mentioned in historical sources. On the other hand, like with the Khazars, it may have practically had no impact.

I always thought like what you mentioned that the Arabian Jewish tribes (some ethnically Jewish some ethnically Arabian) either converted, died, or fled to Yemen (where the Arabs would have made a sizable genetic impact), but Yemeni Jews seem to be Yemeni + Levantine not Saudi + Levantine for the most part.

maroco
11-03-2020, 11:50 PM
Because we are taught the Jews were the cousins of the Arabs, We can’t really make the statement that Samaritan is more Jewish then Yemeni jew. Even then Samaritan still scores a good chunk of Yemenite ancestry also it’s all subjective in my opinion the modern Jews are diverse in ancestry.

leorcooper19
11-04-2020, 01:24 AM
Because we are taught the Jews were the cousins of the Arabs, We can’t really make the statement that Samaritan is more Jewish then Yemeni jew. Even then Samaritan still scores a good chunk of Yemenite ancestry also it’s all subjective in my opinion the modern Jews are diverse in ancestry.

True, but Teimani that are more "Judean" *should* score more Samaritan-like in a model like this. These percentages aren't supposed to be taken literally, and should only be interpreted in context of other results, as was done.