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Rb1-V88
02-19-2014, 11:04 PM
Hello,
Several months ago, on this forum, I came across a migration map called "Eupedia map of R1b Migration".
I don't know the author or the forum sub folder to find it again.
It shows my DNA, V88 in Ancient Israel, dont know the time period though.

My Geno2 reports 56% Mediterranean, 21% Northern European, 20% Southwest Asian, 2% Northeast Asian.
I just received my FTDNA Family Finder results which says I'm 100% +/- 01 Middle East Jewish.
All my family lines are Jewish and have been traced back to abt 1800 in Galicia, Austrian Empire, before that in Russia.
The new "Morley Experimental Y Tree" came out and my kit test began a new branch, R1b1c-2, kit # 305168.
My DNA goal was to see if my ancestry goes back to the time/place of ancient Israel.
Has there been an estimate of when my V88 was in Ancient Israel?
Has my goal been achieved?

I appreciate any insights and discussions,
Take care,
Brian

Tomasso29
02-19-2014, 11:18 PM
R-V88 in Eastern Europe does seem very interesting. I'm not sure if this lineage exists in West Asia but if it does, it's definitely very rare. Obviously this is the African version of R1b, but it's worthy to mention that it does show up in Egypt in moderate numbers, so considering that you have a Jewish background there may be some ancient connection there.

Also I'm curious, have you tested positive for R-M18 (R1b1c1)? This one is actually found in Lebanon and Sardinia.

Rb1-V88
02-19-2014, 11:30 PM
From Gen02, SNP's testing positive appeared on my FTDNA page,
I didn't understand the numbers but someone said I tested negative for both M18 and V69.

Rb1-V88
02-19-2014, 11:36 PM
The Morley Experimental YDNA tree cam out and my kit started a new branch in R1b1c. My kit # is 305168.
I attached a screen shot of the section of the tree where I'm found.
Really don't know what any of this means.

Tomasso29
02-19-2014, 11:55 PM
The Morley Experimental YDNA tree cam out and my kit started a new branch in R1b1c. My kit # is 305168.
I attached a screen shot of the section of the tree where I'm found.
Really don't know what any of this means.

I see your kit in this project:

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/r1b1asterisk/default.aspx?section=yresults

Looks like there's a whole Jewish cluster that shares a recent ancestor, definitely an intriguing story and I think may very well go back to the Jewish migration from the Middle East. However the ultimate source prior to that is probably an ancient gene wave from Africa to the ME. Of course this is all based on personal opinion.

Andrew Lancaster
02-20-2014, 12:42 PM
I believe R-V88 has been found amongst Dead Sea Jordanians for example, and amongst us genealogists, amongst Middle Easterners and Jews, as I understand it.

But Eupedia does tend to be creative and speculative. In reality it is hard to say much about what really happened. I do think there is at least a reasonable chance R-V88 was once more common in the Levant.

Joe B
02-25-2014, 05:29 PM
Hello,
Several months ago, on this forum, I came across a migration map called "Eupedia map of R1b Migration".
I don't know the author or the forum sub folder to find it again.
It shows my DNA, V88 in Ancient Israel, dont know the time period though.

My Geno2 reports 56% Mediterranean, 21% Northern European, 20% Southwest Asian, 2% Northeast Asian.
I just received my FTDNA Family Finder results which says I'm 100% +/- 01 Middle East Jewish.
All my family lines are Jewish and have been traced back to abt 1800 in Galicia, Austrian Empire, before that in Russia.
The new "Morley Experimental Y Tree" came out and my kit test began a new branch, R1b1c-2, kit # 305168.
My DNA goal was to see if my ancestry goes back to the time/place of ancient Israel.
Has there been an estimate of when my V88 was in Ancient Israel?
Has my goal been achieved?

I appreciate any insights and discussions,
Take care,
Brian

Hey Brian,
Glad to see you post on Anthrogenica. It was fun watching you find your suclade on the FTDNA forum. Thanks for your interest in the R1b-V88 subclade too. Nothing like having a real V88 haplotype to regenerate interest in that subclade. Hopefully someone will know if M18, V8, V35 and V7 are worth testing.

Alan, one of our more prolific and insightful members, has an interest in the origin and migration of R1b-V88 and the other early R1b subclades.
Thread: A role for Kura-Araxes in the spread of V88? (http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?1139-A-role-for-Kura-Araxes-in-the-spread-of-V88)

This very recent paper confirms the evidence of a migration to the Levant by Kura-Araxes peoples from a pottery perspective

http://kura-arax.tau.ac.il/system/files/245_262-ISERLIS%20_TUBA-AR.pdf

recall too the P25 concentration on the Dead Sea that turned out to be V88.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a9/JordanRiver_en.svg/256px-JordanRiver_en.svg.png

This is all extremely suggestive of a link between KA migration and V88. It also brought them very close to Africa at the perfect date c. 2700BC close to that of 2500BC which Anatole, Vass etc have calculated the age of African-only V88. Its also known that there are KA settlements on Cyprus so these people had access to boats if needed too.

While not the originators of there copper routes they may well have followed the sort of trade routes that Amazallug shows on his maps of c. 3000BC (he is always vague on dates by the way) and even link into NE Africa.

http://www.ajaonline.org/sites/default/files/AJA1134Amzallag_0.pdf

I even notice Amazallug, as well as the land route from the Levant, has placed a little 3rd millenium arrow going from Cyprus to Egypt. As noted above, KA had a presence on the island by then and was involved in the metallurgy of that island by then.

A lot seems to stack up for the concept of an encorporation of V88 into the Kura-Araxes culture somewhere like east Anatolia and a spread down the Levant and into Africa.

newtoboard
02-25-2014, 07:52 PM
I believe R-V88 has been found amongst Dead Sea Jordanians for example, and amongst us genealogists, amongst Middle Easterners and Jews, as I understand it.

But Eupedia does tend to be creative and speculative. In reality it is hard to say much about what really happened. I do think there is at least a reasonable chance R-V88 was once more common in the Levant.

What would support the idea that R-V88 was once more common in the Levant?

AJL
02-26-2014, 01:54 AM
What would support the idea that R-V88 was once more common in the Levant?

Better testing in the area, for starters.

Rb1-V88
02-27-2014, 09:49 PM
I appreciate the comments and references, its a lot to understand but I'm getting there.
Brian

ADW_1981
02-28-2014, 12:50 AM
What would support the idea that R-V88 was once more common in the Levant?

The fact that it is found deep in Afro-Asiatic speaking populations Central Africa almost exclusively with variants of E1b1b1 which are typical of northern Africa, and other lineages not found outside Africa such as A and B.

alan
02-28-2014, 01:24 AM
I am pretty convinced it has been the Levant since at least 3000BC and was there before V88 reached Africa. I know he has some weird ideas and allegedly has made errors in calculations but Anatole Klyosov in his Arbrin papers does make an interesting observation which is likely a sound one. He suggests that most SW Asian V88 is distinctive in terms of its STRs while African V88 has STRs that largely look rather like they had already developed most of the way towards the STR patterns of the younger African-specific subcade of V88 known as V69. This subclade is apparently much younger than V88 as a whole and by its resemblance to V69 so is African V88. This all suggests that African V88 is an offshoot from the Levant. I think from memory Anatole suggested V88 as a whole dated to around 4 or 5000BC while African V88 and V69 dated to around 2500BC. All of this suggests to me very strongly that V88 had a much longer history in SW Asia than Africa. I rather fancy a link to Kura-Araxes culture which was important in the Levant c. 3000BC. That culture is thought to have arisen somewhere like the SE Caucasus with contacts with NW Iran and to have spread its wings across east Anatolia and the Levant almost to Africa.

I have suggested the Kura-Araxes networks as a possible way it got to the Levant. I say 'got to the Levant' as I think its unlikely that R1b in its very deepest roots was from there. One way or another if you look a step up the SNP tree from V88 it does share a common P25 ancestor with lots of clades which have a much more northern distribution - including paragroup P25* (north Iran, central Asia), M73 (Urals, central Asia etc) and M269 (much of western Eurasia).

Diverclic
03-03-2014, 10:45 AM
Hello Brian,

I am a little late in this thread. Did you compare your R1b-V88 result to Sam Vass ; he was long the only one on these forums from this branch of R1b.
Here is a tree posted some times ago by V. Vizachero :
1531
I believe it's still valid but a few new branches, including yours have enlarged this tree. I though it was a good idea to replace the R1b-V88 in the context of the other R1b, mainly the P297 branch leading to most european R1bs.
I have long been postulating a link between copper work expansion and R1b. I don't think , like Alan, that the link is limited to the V88 branch. Rather, I see no reason to exclude the L389 branch (see above - the tree) from the copper work. There are reasons not to fully associate the Kuro - Araxes culture (founded on ceramics) to any of the 2 R1b branches. Rather, I proposed that R1b people developped as communities of early metal smith included in other populations of the middle east. The extension to the Levant is one direction but another extension was towards the Balkans (mixing with other populations). A. Klyosov pointed a likely R1b migration in early Sumer and it would be another association.
Seen this way, R1b would be like Bantoo in Africa for iron work expansion. In both cases the result was a very large increase of those communities having the knowledge of metal work.

The Saite
01-13-2020, 04:56 PM
After the new papers that showed up in the field .
I'm thinking of a "sea people" source of this Clade in the Levant ; rather than an ancient dispersal in the area tho

ADW_1981
06-29-2020, 06:35 PM
After the new papers that showed up in the field .
I'm thinking of a "sea people" source of this Clade in the Levant ; rather than an ancient dispersal in the area tho

How could it have deeply nested branches way south in Central Africa? It must be older than the Sea People, or these people were already settling on the shores of north Africa very early on.

Lupriac
07-21-2020, 12:57 PM
Sea peoples were most likely responsible for the spread of some R-Z2103 in the area, and with it the introduction, or rather spread, of Steppe admixture in Levantine populations from the Iron age onward. R-V88 certainly rings a bell as neolithic subclade in the area.