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Markos
03-04-2021, 05:56 PM
It's mostly an inconsistent guessing game for Greeks when it comes to individual components under the WANA banner. There's no consistency whatsoever.

peloponnesian
03-04-2021, 07:30 PM
The population groupings that 23andMe uses are in dire need of a major update; how can you lump together the Balkans + mainland Greece + the Greek Islands as one ancestry group?

Looking over their population reference datasets right now, something I've noticed:

https://i.imgur.com/SeAo0uj.png

Maltese are listed as one of the references for Greek & Balkan. Maybe it's just a typing error, but still very odd.

That's weird because if you click on the Italian grouping they say something like "we could not detect any ancestry from Malta", basically treating it as a sub-region for Italy

td120
03-04-2021, 10:52 PM
...

Checked my Greek matches- mainland ones score next to nothing (zero or low single digits...except for two and although they've listed 4 Grandparents from continental Greece they're probably from somewhere else).

My Greek matches with ancestry from Turkey have some hefty amounts of WANA (Anatolian being usually less than 1/3 of the total WANA).For example there is a guy with ancestry from
Urgup, Turkey,
Edirne, Turkey,
Komotini, Greece,
Thessaloniki, Greece
..and scores 52.6% WANA (Iranian, Caucasian & Mesopotamian -29.9% ; Anatolian - 16.1% etc.)

My Ethnic Turkish matches all have at least 1/2 Balkan ancestry (the ones with highest Anatolian ancestry are with GP from Bozuyuk and Ankara ) .

If any of my Bulgarian matches score Anatolian or any WANA at all they're the ones with ancestry from Eastern Thrace.

23andme v4 gave me 17% Anatolian in the last revision (dec.2020) , jumped up from 5-ish %. My Ancestry raw file upload to 23andme gives me only 2.3% Anatolian...go figure.
100% Greek and Balkan in FTDNA.

P.S. got two Armenian matches with ancestry from Turkey, they're almost completely Iranian, Caucasian & Mesopotamian - zero Anatolian scored (first with ancestry from Iraq, Egypt and Turkey and the second with four GP's from Kahramanmaraş).

lacreme
03-07-2021, 06:34 PM
I have a history based question.

Does anyone know, and can point me to the appropriate historical sources, if any Germanic or northern population (including crusader armies ) passed through or transfered/resettled to the areas in and around Miletus since the appearance of the Germanic tribes at the borders of the Roman Empire until the conquest of the area by the Seljuk Turks ? (5th-13th century ? )

dosas
03-07-2021, 07:21 PM
There is some degree of overlap where Laconia transitions into some of the less WANA of the islanders. There is a 10-20% WANA range that you can find some Laconians, Cyclades, and North Aegean islanders in (often Samos, Lesbos, or Lemnos), even a couple of people from far western Crete.


This post is the typical gibberish you can expect from the resident 23ame reddit trolls (you know who you are).

XXD
03-07-2021, 07:56 PM
These WANA categories probably do not mean much, but my Chian matches score about 50%WANA, 30%"Italian" and 20% Greek. A Greek relative from Nigde scores 90% WANA.

23abc
03-07-2021, 10:13 PM
I don't take the exact percentages seriously, but here are some averages generated from my 23andMe matches.

Kalymnos:

https://i.imgur.com/XdzYtAI.png

Symi:

https://i.imgur.com/46jHZz8.png

I can't create an average for Rhodes as it varies wildly depending on towns, and there is a lack of matches from the different areas. Some score 75%+ WANA (lots of Cypriot %) meanwhile others score closer to the normal 50/50 split, main difference I can say for sure is that across the board they score the least 'Greek & Balkan' out of any areas I've come across. The average would be around 2-3%. A few individuals score 0%, so they end up getting no genetic regions even though if they scored even 0.1% it would have listed Southern Aegean as their region.

As for whether it's worth to purchase, I still recommend buying it, even if just for the relative matches. Ultimately the best way to map ancestry is with DNA segment mapping anyways. In that way, it would be possible to know where each segment of DNA comes from or even the furthest known ancestor the segment of DNA comes from. This is much more useful information than what any ethnicity estimate can provide.

Johnny ola
03-07-2021, 10:22 PM
I have a history based question.

Does anyone know, and can point me to the appropriate historical sources, if any Germanic or northern population (including crusader armies ) passed through or transfered/resettled to the areas in and around Miletus since the appearance of the Germanic tribes at the borders of the Roman Empire until the conquest of the area by the Seljuk Turks ? (5th-13th century ? )

There was a Gothic raid of CE 262 in Laconia/Sparti i think.Why you ask?

Panos
03-08-2021, 11:20 AM
I have finally got my parents´G25 coords and the results are really interesting especially for my father.
His pontic mix has obvious strong Armenian but at the same time some shift to central anatolia/Cappadocia. It seems that this is a result of his full Ordu origin that might had some extra Iran N and Levant. I think that his high Levant is mostly from this mix and not a distinct levant heritage.
My mother´s admixture is basically a greek_trabzon average with litlle more levant. She is from Santa/Surmena/Trabzon as far back as I know.

Good if you could help with some analysis on this maybe with more focus on my father from Ordu. For example, their steppe, empuries2, CHG, Bronze Age Anatolian, Iran_N, and so on. In general, my father fits better with Kaman-Kalehoyuk and Alalakh while my mother fits better with Arslantepe and Alalakh. Johnny has already been struggling with that and made good models.

The coordinates:
Panos_father_scaled,0.106994,0.140143,-0.056945,-0.069445,-0.026466,-0.02008,0.001645,-0.002538,-0.032724,0.01221,0.006333,0.003597,-0.006987,0.006331,-0.011265,-0.006099,0.004172,0.001647,-0.002891,-0.002876,0.000374,0.006925,0.00493,-0.006266,0.00479

Panos_mother_scaled,0.108132,0.147252,-0.05506,-0.067184,-0.024928,-0.014223,0.010105,-0.006231,-0.033337,-0.007654,-0.000487,0.002098,-0.010109,0.009771,-0.008007,-0.017767,-0.005476,-0.006588,-0.003268,0.001376,0.01123,0.004204,0.00419,-0.011206,0.000838

With all samples 0,5 penalty:

Target: Panos_father_scaled
Distance: 1.9783% / 0.01978333 | ADC: 0.5x RC
48.0 Turkish_Trabzon
37.0 Armenian_B
15.0 Greek_Cappadocia

Interestingly, it picks Turkish_Trabzon and not the greek sample. Don´t know why. Also, Armenian_B is remarkable.

Mother:
Target: Panos_mother_scaled
Distance: 2.2986% / 0.02298613 | ADC: 0.5x RC
90.2 Greek_Trabzon
9.8 Samaritan

Not much to say about this.

Ancient:

Target: Panos_father_scaled
Distance: 1.4766% / 0.01476614 | ADC: 0.5x RC
27.0 Kura-Araxes_ARM_Talin
24.6 IND_Roopkund_B_o
23.6 TUR_Arslantepe_EBA
19.2 TUR_Ikiztepe_LC
5.6 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_C

Observe the high Kura Araxes together iwth Iran_C. Also high Roopkund

Mother:
Target: Panos_mother_scaled
Distance: 2.0433% / 0.02043255 | ADC: 0.5x RC
39.0 RUS_Maykop_Novosvobodnaya
31.6 TUR_Arslantepe_EBA
25.0 TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA_low_res
4.4 Ostrogothic_Crimea_ACD

lacreme
03-08-2021, 11:31 AM
There was a Gothic raid of CE 262 in Laconia/Sparti i think.Why you ask?

Thank you but I'm more interested about any movements/raids/resettlements that happened in this specific part of Western Asia minor (and northwards up to Smyrni ) .


This question is connected with the post I made a few pages ago about an originally written in Latin legal document about church land possesions ( or rather, forced acquisitions? ) in the area around Miletus in the mid-13th century. In it among the named impacted families of farmers there is one with the same very rare, nowadays at least, surname as my friends whose paternal line is originally from Smyrni. His knowledge extends only as far back as the late 19th century though...

His predicted Ydna clade is I1-L22 and while he is still waiting for his WGS results from Dante Labs to use them to get his terminal subclade and while he will most probably be on one of the "balkan formed" subclades he would like to gather historical sources to be prepared to search for more clues about his paternal line's possible ultimate area of origin in the -then- greek speaking west asian areas in the slim chance he WON'T be on one such subclade.

As an example, a Turkic user in one of the I1 facebook groups with origins from Antalya managed to find using historical sources and his subclade data that his paternal line was always in the area since its introduction there... His specific subclade being of nw-european origin/expansion (german and french) and finding that in his area many soldiers from a crusading army were left behind after a defeat in battle (can't remember which crusade exactly, but possibly the second, or specific battle fought ).

peloponnesian
03-08-2021, 12:01 PM
I can't create an average for Rhodes as it varies wildly depending on towns, and there is a lack of matches from the different areas. Some score 75%+ WANA (lots of Cypriot %) meanwhile others score closer to the normal 50/50 split, main difference I can say for sure is that across the board they score the least 'Greek & Balkan' out of any areas I've come across. The average would be around 2-3%. A few individuals score 0%, so they end up getting no genetic regions even though if they scored even 0.1% it would have listed Southern Aegean as their region.

This is just... Almost zero "Greek & Balkan" and no regions despite their region (Southern Aegean) literally being under the "Greek & Balkan" category lol. Meanwhile I get Southern Aegean as my 3rd top region despite only having minimal ancestry from there. I know the way they give regions is through your relatives and is independent of the ancestry composition algorithm but the end result is a mess and must be super confusing for those not in the know.

td120
03-08-2021, 12:03 PM
Yep...the user from Antalia is I-FGC12562 .
https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-CTS2208/

https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?19959-French-Crusader-descendants-in-Turkish-Village-in-Antalya-Province

eolien
03-08-2021, 12:22 PM
Thank you but I'm more interested about any movements/raids/resettlements that happened in this specific part of Western Asia minor (and northwards up to Smyrni ) .


This question is connected with the post I made a few pages ago about an originally written in Latin legal document about church land possesions ( or rather, forced acquisitions? ) in the area around Miletus in the mid-13th century. In it among the named impacted families of farmers there is one with the same very rare, nowadays at least, surname as my friends whose paternal line is originally from Smyrni. His knowledge extends only as far back as the late 19th century though...

His predicted Ydna clade is I1-L22 and while he is still waiting for his WGS results from Dante Labs to use them to get his terminal subclade and while he will most probably be on one of the "balkan formed" subclades he would like to gather historical sources to be prepared to search for more clues about his paternal line's possible ultimate area of origin in the -then- greek speaking west asian areas in the slim chance he WON'T be on one such subclade.

As an example, a Turkic user in one of the I1 facebook groups with origins from Antalya managed to find using historical sources and his subclade data that his paternal line was always in the area since its introduction there... His specific subclade being of nw-european origin/expansion (german and french) and finding that in his area many soldiers from a crusading army were left behind after a defeat in battle (can't remember which crusade exactly, but possibly the second, or specific battle fought ).

Byzantines used mercenaries for example Catalans (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalan_Company), so anything is possible. We have documental record of Catalans and Genoese as the main actors. I dont think germans had surnames at that time.

lacreme
03-08-2021, 01:03 PM
Yep...the user from Antalia is I-FGC12562 .
https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-CTS2208/

https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?19959-French-Crusader-descendants-in-Turkish-Village-in-Antalya-Province

YEP! that's the one ;)


Byzantines used mercenaries for example Catalans (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalan_Company), so anything is possible. We have documental record of Catalans and Genoese as the main actors. I dont think germans had surnames at that time.

Thanks! totally forgot about them... So I suppose they could be a source, along with any crusaders passing through there, of North/NW european lineages in long-standing/attested Anatolian families of either Turkic or Greek origin.

23abc
03-08-2021, 02:11 PM
I have finally got my parents´G25 coords and the results are really interesting especially for my father.
His pontic mix has obvious strong Armenian but at the same time some shift to central anatolia/Cappadocia. It seems that this is a result of his full Ordu origin that might had some extra Iran N and Levant. I think that his high Levant is mostly from this mix and not a distinct levant heritage.
My mother´s admixture is basically a greek_trabzon average with litlle more levant. She is from Santa/Surmena/Trabzon as far back as I know.

Good if you could help with some analysis on this maybe with more focus on my father from Ordu. For example, their steppe, empuries2, CHG, Bronze Age Anatolian, Iran_N, and so on. In general, my father fits better with Kaman-Kalehoyuk and Alalakh while my mother fits better with Arslantepe and Alalakh. Johnny has already been struggling with that and made good models.

The coordinates:
Panos_father_scaled,0.106994,0.140143,-0.056945,-0.069445,-0.026466,-0.02008,0.001645,-0.002538,-0.032724,0.01221,0.006333,0.003597,-0.006987,0.006331,-0.011265,-0.006099,0.004172,0.001647,-0.002891,-0.002876,0.000374,0.006925,0.00493,-0.006266,0.00479

Panos_mother_scaled,0.108132,0.147252,-0.05506,-0.067184,-0.024928,-0.014223,0.010105,-0.006231,-0.033337,-0.007654,-0.000487,0.002098,-0.010109,0.009771,-0.008007,-0.017767,-0.005476,-0.006588,-0.003268,0.001376,0.01123,0.004204,0.00419,-0.011206,0.000838

With all samples 0,5 penalty:

Target: Panos_father_scaled
Distance: 1.9783% / 0.01978333 | ADC: 0.5x RC
48.0 Turkish_Trabzon
37.0 Armenian_B
15.0 Greek_Cappadocia

Interestingly, it picks Turkish_Trabzon and not the greek sample. Don´t know why. Also, Armenian_B is remarkable.

Mother:
Target: Panos_mother_scaled
Distance: 2.2986% / 0.02298613 | ADC: 0.5x RC
90.2 Greek_Trabzon
9.8 Samaritan

Not much to say about this.

Ancient:

Target: Panos_father_scaled
Distance: 1.4766% / 0.01476614 | ADC: 0.5x RC
27.0 Kura-Araxes_ARM_Talin
24.6 IND_Roopkund_B_o
23.6 TUR_Arslantepe_EBA
19.2 TUR_Ikiztepe_LC
5.6 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_C

Observe the high Kura Araxes together iwth Iran_C. Also high Roopkund

Mother:
Target: Panos_mother_scaled
Distance: 2.0433% / 0.02043255 | ADC: 0.5x RC
39.0 RUS_Maykop_Novosvobodnaya
31.6 TUR_Arslantepe_EBA
25.0 TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA_low_res
4.4 Ostrogothic_Crimea_ACD

I've found the best tool for comparing 100% samples is the comparison tools.

Your father compared to Greek_Trabzon, has Levant affinity.

https://imgur.com/PmeETX9.png

Your mum also has Levant affinity compared to Greek_Trabzon.

https://imgur.com/ExSMsSD.png

And comparing your mum to your dad, your mum is more Laz shifted while your dad is more Central Anatolian/Armenian shifted.

https://imgur.com/sJyfRCN.png

I don't have enough knowledge to say why this Levant affinity comes up, but I will suggest that it is very likely that some areas of Anatolia prior to Turkish invasion would have had a similar autosomal profile to Cypriots. IIRC even some of the Bronze Age samples we have at the moment has Cypriot as their closest modern population in terms of distance. So it is probably that some of the Levant affinity seen in Cappadocia, Pontus and even Greek islands is mainly associated with this type of Anatolian ancestry which I have no doubt existed. Some of the Roman Imperial samples probably were sourced by populations with such an autosomal mixture also.

Johnny ola
03-08-2021, 02:44 PM
Thank you but I'm more interested about any movements/raids/resettlements that happened in this specific part of Western Asia minor (and northwards up to Smyrni ) .


This question is connected with the post I made a few pages ago about an originally written in Latin legal document about church land possesions ( or rather, forced acquisitions? ) in the area around Miletus in the mid-13th century. In it among the named impacted families of farmers there is one with the same very rare, nowadays at least, surname as my friends whose paternal line is originally from Smyrni. His knowledge extends only as far back as the late 19th century though...

His predicted Ydna clade is I1-L22 and while he is still waiting for his WGS results from Dante Labs to use them to get his terminal subclade and while he will most probably be on one of the "balkan formed" subclades he would like to gather historical sources to be prepared to search for more clues about his paternal line's possible ultimate area of origin in the -then- greek speaking west asian areas in the slim chance he WON'T be on one such subclade.

As an example, a Turkic user in one of the I1 facebook groups with origins from Antalya managed to find using historical sources and his subclade data that his paternal line was always in the area since its introduction there... His specific subclade being of nw-european origin/expansion (german and french) and finding that in his area many soldiers from a crusading army were left behind after a defeat in battle (can't remember which crusade exactly, but possibly the second, or specific battle fought ).

Might be,but keep in mind that even Kolokotronis had a germanic lineage.It is very possible germanic lineages to arrived either with slavic or balkan migrations towards Greece.Smyrni folks are also Greeks from various parts of mainland Greece and Islands.But there wasn't any Germanic settlement with exception as you mention the Frankish rulers.

Johnny ola
03-08-2021, 02:48 PM
I've found the best tool for comparing 100% samples is the comparison tools.

Your father compared to Greek_Trabzon, has Levant affinity.

https://imgur.com/PmeETX9.png

Your mum also has Levant affinity compared to Greek_Trabzon.

https://imgur.com/ExSMsSD.png

And comparing your mum to your dad, your mum is more Laz shifted while your dad is more Central Anatolian/Armenian shifted.

https://imgur.com/sJyfRCN.png

I don't have enough knowledge to say why this Levant affinity comes up, but I will suggest that it is very likely that some areas of Anatolia prior to Turkish invasion would have had a similar autosomal profile to Cypriots. IIRC even some of the Bronze Age samples we have at the moment has Cypriot as their closest modern population in terms of distance. So it is probably that some of the Levant affinity seen in Cappadocia, Pontus and even Greek islands is mainly associated with this type of Anatolian ancestry which I have no doubt existed. Some of the Roman Imperial samples probably were sourced by populations with such an autosomal mixture also.

Your analysis is fine.Many parts of anatolia were either close to the samples we have from Arslantepe and to Alalakh.If you use such samples you can easily see that they eating the Levant admixture.Even Greek islanders and Cypriots can make good models with them.

peloponnesian
03-08-2021, 02:52 PM
Me vs my father:

https://i.imgur.com/Cb6AUKO.png

Do we know which study are the GRC_Cycladic_EBA:Kou01, GRC_Cycladic_EBA:Kou03, GRC_Helladic_EBA:Mik15, GRC_Helladic_MBA:Log02, GRC_Helladic_MBA:Log04 samples from? I hadn't noticed them before.

EDIT: nevermind, found the discussion

Interestingly, the closest average to the GRC_Helladic_EBA average is BGR_C (Bulgaria Chalcolithic?) and the closest to GRC_Helladic_MBA is ITA_Proto-villanovan. Does this mean anything for a possible common root between early Italics and Proto-Greeks/Paleo-Balkans or is just superficial?

Johnny ola
03-08-2021, 03:40 PM
Me vs my father:

https://i.imgur.com/Cb6AUKO.png

Do we know which study are the GRC_Cycladic_EBA:Kou01, GRC_Cycladic_EBA:Kou03, GRC_Helladic_EBA:Mik15, GRC_Helladic_MBA:Log02, GRC_Helladic_MBA:Log04 samples from? I hadn't noticed them before.

EDIT: nevermind, found the discussion

Interestingly, the closest average to the GRC_Helladic_EBA average is BGR_C (Bulgaria Chalcolithic?) and the closest to GRC_Helladic_MBA is ITA_Proto-villanovan. Does this mean anything for a possible common root between early Italics and Proto-Greeks/Paleo-Balkans or is just superficial?

Its because they sharing similar admixtures/components.GRC Helladic is prolly proto-Greeks or proto-Macedonian-Phrygians.They are highly steppe admixed.

Villanovan is pre-Etruscan.Autosomal is not that different from later Etruscans and other Italics.

Italo-Celtic branch is diffrent from the Greco-Phrygian-Armenian branch both in linguistics but also in their origins.

dosas
03-08-2021, 04:08 PM
Those two branches should be closer than either is to Germanic or Slavic. Remember even Celts once existed in Anatolia.

Are you having a laugh? What does the theoretical branch of Graeco-Armenian of 3000 B.C. have to do with the Anatolian Celts of 300 B.C.

peloponnesian
03-08-2021, 04:09 PM
Its because they sharing similar admixtures/components.GRC Helladic is prolly proto-Greeks or proto-Macedonian-Phrygians.They are highly steppe admixed.

Villanovan is pre-Etruscan.Autosomal is not that different from later Etruscans and other Italics.

Italo-Celtic branch is diffrent from the Greco-Phrygian-Armenian branch both in linguistics but also in their origins.

Linguistically for sure but is there a possibility the early Italics were a mix of Yamnaya and western Balkans? Or did they arrive in Italy from Corded Ware/Central Europe? Admittedly I haven't read much on Bell Beakers because everyone only talks about R1b in those threads so maybe I'm way off.

Johnny ola
03-08-2021, 04:26 PM
Linguistically for sure but is there a possibility the early Italics were a mix of Yamnaya and western Balkans? Or did they arrive in Italy from Corded Ware/Central Europe? Admittedly I haven't read much on Bell Beakers because everyone only talks about R1b in those threads so maybe I'm way off.

Yamnaya is too early.Italo-Celts are more related with Bell Beakers.Greco-Armenians-Phrygo-Macedonians are still a debate.They are either from KMK Babyno(mini Corded group) or Catacomb.

Johnny ola
03-08-2021, 04:26 PM
Those two branches should be closer than either is to Germanic or Slavic. Remember even Celts once existed in Anatolia.

lol what?

XXD
03-09-2021, 03:23 PM
One of my latest matches who is 100% WANA: 50% Kastamonu, 50% Kos:

43763

discreetmaverick
03-09-2021, 03:34 PM
Question,

Can anyone suggest which of the Bulgarian or Southeast Europe sample available on G25 would be the best available proxy for Thracian/Skudra as depicted on Xerxes tomb relief?

Thanks,

dosas
03-09-2021, 06:19 PM
23ame is the most expensive test, has the least number of SNPs in its raw file, making it bad for GEDMATCH calculators and G25 (Davidski's words not mine), and its latest oracle iteration is complete garbage.

It is also the least popular for the Greek market, hence the least amount of matches.

Yet, here we are, regurgitating the same things ad nauseam.

bovefex
03-09-2021, 06:35 PM
and G25 (Davidski's words not mine)

Davidski told me 23andme raw data works fine though?

altvred
03-09-2021, 06:43 PM
Davidski told me 23andme raw data works fine though?

I remember something being said about the new V5 chips being less accurate than the older V3 ones, not a dealbreaker, though.

Markos
03-09-2021, 09:25 PM
I remember something being said about the new V5 chips being less accurate than the older V3 ones, not a dealbreaker, though.

That sounds correct and confirms what I know from my own raw data comparisons between the major companies. MH/Ancestry very similar and 23andMe V5 way off. There's hope if you're able to convert it to V3, however.

23abc
03-10-2021, 04:12 AM
XXD showed an interesting match of his, and I don't understand how it not producing the best coordinates for gedmatch calcs/G25 is relevant to what he posted. It's actually completely unrelated to if 23andMe itself is an actual good test or not. Overlap of SNPs being poor is the problem of the calculators, not 23andMe.

My opinion is that it is the best test on the market for studying segment matching, which as I mentioned before is completely superior to what I consider to be useless on an individual basis - oracles and ethnicity estimates. XXD himself has studied his matches and worked out what % Romani he could be from this method. I'm in the middle of mapping all my shared segments, and hopefully can be done soon.

As for the match XXD posted, it looks like a 100% Turk result, does he list Greek surnames? I've seen various strange results with mixed individuals. For example, a 50% Cypriot becoming 100% Cypriot, so maybe this is a similar case. Additionally, any half Dodecanese / half Ashkenazi will also essentially become 50% Cypriot. And again, a half Dodecanese / half East Asian will see their Anatolian % take up most of that side. So maybe it's another case of this, unfortunately the ethnicity estimates do not work well for mixed individuals in every test, so I don't think this is specifically a problem of 23andMe.

dosas
03-10-2021, 09:49 AM
Myheritage also has a chromosome browser, I don't see what's so special about 23andme's one.

And I wasn't referring to his methodology but rather the incessant gibberish relating to 23ame's nonsensical oracles that you often find in the aforementioned sub-reddit and that seem to be creeping in the Greek threads as of lately, from certain new posters, very familiar, in their style and form, to what the retired poster Sikeliot used to go on about.

XXD
03-10-2021, 11:58 AM
As for the match XXD posted, it looks like a 100% Turk result, does he list Greek surnames? I've seen various strange results with mixed individuals. For example, a 50% Cypriot becoming 100% Cypriot, so maybe this is a similar case. Additionally, any half Dodecanese / half Ashkenazi will also essentially become 50% Cypriot. And again, a half Dodecanese / half East Asian will see their Anatolian % take up most of that side. So maybe it's another case of this, unfortunately the ethnicity estimates do not work well for mixed individuals in every test, so I don't think this is specifically a problem of 23andMe.

I'm afraid she does not list any surnames. But she matches me in the same segments that I share with Pontic/Anatolian Greeks. Fully realizing the limitations of 23andme (I'll soon go to Nebula WGS), my G25 correctly identifies my Nigde/Pontic ancestry: in theory, I should be 12.5% from Nigde (paternal great grandmother), and I score 12.7% Maykop using my G25, so it seems to be accurate.

lacreme
03-10-2021, 12:12 PM
My Greek friend who had ordered a WGS kit from Dante Labs just got a mail that his results are ready!
Can someone help me (via pm ) to guide him to the next steps ? Preferably by one that can write/understand Greek as to fully understand what I have to do. He intends to buy the ydna/mtdna extraction from Yfull and use WGSextract to get his autosomal data .

-EDIT-
Now both the hg19 and hg38 files are available. Which one to use to YFull and which is better for the autosomal data extraction ?

Thanks!

Helves
03-10-2021, 02:00 PM
I've found the best tool for comparing 100% samples is the comparison tools.

Your father compared to Greek_Trabzon, has Levant affinity.

https://imgur.com/PmeETX9.png

Your mum also has Levant affinity compared to Greek_Trabzon.

https://imgur.com/ExSMsSD.png

And comparing your mum to your dad, your mum is more Laz shifted while your dad is more Central Anatolian/Armenian shifted.

https://imgur.com/sJyfRCN.png

I don't have enough knowledge to say why this Levant affinity comes up, but I will suggest that it is very likely that some areas of Anatolia prior to Turkish invasion would have had a similar autosomal profile to Cypriots. IIRC even some of the Bronze Age samples we have at the moment has Cypriot as their closest modern population in terms of distance. So it is probably that some of the Levant affinity seen in Cappadocia, Pontus and even Greek islands is mainly associated with this type of Anatolian ancestry which I have no doubt existed. Some of the Roman Imperial samples probably were sourced by populations with such an autosomal mixture also.

Where did you find this tool? Looks like Vahaduo?

23abc
03-10-2021, 02:06 PM
Myheritage also has a chromosome browser, I don't see what's so special about 23andme's one.

And I wasn't referring to his methodology but rather the incessant gibberish relating to 23ame's nonsensical oracles that you often find in the aforementioned sub-reddit and that seem to be creeping in the Greek threads as of lately, from certain new posters, very familiar, in their style and form, to what the retired poster Sikeliot used to go on about.

The problem with MyHeritage is that like gedmatch most of the matches are false matches. At the same time, one of my MyHeritage kits matches someone at 100cM and on the other kit does not match them at all. This is most likely not entirely their fault, due to most of their database being uploads and uploads have low SNP overlap with eachother. But I'm afraid I can't even trust MyHeritage even at the segment matching level, which is unfortunate, because I need every match I can get for my mother's side.

23abc
03-10-2021, 02:10 PM
Where did you find this tool? Looks like Vahaduo?

In the 'Distance' tab of Vahaduo, you can switch the 'Mode' to 'Difference (AC - BC)' or 'Difference (AC / BC)', which I found to be very useful in comparing similar samples to see how they differ.

bovefex
03-10-2021, 03:48 PM
I'm afraid she does not list any surnames. But she matches me in the same segments that I share with Pontic/Anatolian Greeks. Fully realizing the limitations of 23andme (I'll soon go to Nebula WGS), my G25 correctly identifies my Nigde/Pontic ancestry: in theory, I should be 12.5% from Nigde (paternal great grandmother), and I score 12.7% Maykop using my G25, so it seems to be accurate.

I might be wrong, but I really don't think your ancestor from Nigde was 100% Maykop.

dosas
03-10-2021, 04:13 PM
My Greek friend who had ordered a WGS kit from Dante Labs just got a mail that his results are ready!
Can someone help me (via pm ) to guide him to the next steps ? Preferably by one that can write/understand Greek as to fully understand what I have to do. He intends to buy the ydna/mtdna extraction from Yfull and use WGSextract to get his autosomal data .

-EDIT-
Now both the hg19 and hg38 files are available. Which one to use to YFull and which is better for the autosomal data extraction ?

Thanks!

I think YFULL accepts both, but you should go with hg38.

XXD
03-10-2021, 04:24 PM
I might be wrong, but I really don't think your ancestor from Nigde was 100% Maykop.

No, but she is not the only source I could get this component form, as my other Asia Minor ancestors (and even the Cretan ones) could harbor low levels of that ancestry as well.

lacreme
03-10-2021, 04:35 PM
I think YFULL accepts both, but you should go with hg38.

Thank you!
And what about WGSextract ? As I understand taking a quick glance on the instruction manual, is it better to use hg19 with it ? also, if I make a combined kit with it, is it safe to upload to gedmatch or do I risk getting a ban ?

losAntonis
03-10-2021, 04:46 PM
Thank you!
And what about WGSextract ? As I understand taking a quick glance on the instruction manual, is it better to use hg19 with it ? also, if I make a combined kit with it, is it safe to upload to gedmatch or do I risk getting a ban ?

Use hg38 for YFull and hg19 eith WGS extract for Gedmatch (combined kit)

losAntonis
03-10-2021, 04:48 PM
My Greek friend who had ordered a WGS kit from Dante Labs just got a mail that his results are ready!
Can someone help me (via pm ) to guide him to the next steps ? Preferably by one that can write/understand Greek as to fully understand what I have to do. He intends to buy the ydna/mtdna extraction from Yfull and use WGSextract to get his autosomal data .

-EDIT-
Now both the hg19 and hg38 files are available. Which one to use to YFull and which is better for the autosomal data extraction ?

Thanks!

Contact me with PM.
I speak and write Grek

lacreme
03-10-2021, 10:51 PM
Some preliminary Ydna/Mtdna results for my Greek friend (the same one as always ).

I'm still waiting for the data validation from YFull so in the meantime I've decided to use the built-in tools of WGSextract just to have an idea.

Ydna
43793

Mtdna
43794

Greekscholar
03-11-2021, 08:49 PM
A Fourni (Fournoi) reference sample is now available on Dodecad 12b calculator. Here are some distance measures.

All of the distances to my family and the others are solid. The Fourni sample itself is interestingly most close to Crete on this calculator.


Distance to: Greek_Fournoi
1.91616805 Greek_Crete
2.56626187 Greek_Smyrna
4.43514374 Moldavian_Jewish
4.50579627 Ashkenazi_Jews
4.64122829 Greek_Kos
4.84541020 Italian_Calabria
5.47023765 Greek_Lemnos
5.72989529 Greek_Rhodes
5.77530086 Greek_Icaria
6.09526045 Italian_Sicily
6.31315294 Italian_Apulia
6.32028480 Italian_Campania
6.44135079 Greek_Foca
7.76651144 Italian_Jews
8.07181516 Italian_Abruzzo
9.30438069 Turk_Cyprus
9.32741122 Greek_Athens
9.51226577 Sephardic_Jews
9.72905956 Greek_Central
11.53705768 Greek_Peloponnese
12.94883779 Turk_West_BlackSea
13.18782772 Greek_Cypriot
13.36099547 Morocco_Jews
13.83565322 Italian_Lazio
14.01386827 Italian_Marche

Distance to: GS
2.83148371 Greek_Smyrna
3.36553116 Greek_Fournoi
3.79211023 Moldavian_Jewish
3.97668203 Ashkenazi_Jews
4.53932814 Greek_Crete
4.54024228 Greek_Foca
4.99128240 Italian_Apulia
5.10586917 Greek_Lemnos
5.49310477 Italian_Calabria
5.63292109 Italian_Campania
5.77056323 Italian_Sicily
6.81184997 Greek_Icaria
6.87322341 Italian_Abruzzo
7.00241387 Greek_Athens
7.31986339 Greek_Kos
7.70144142 Greek_Central
8.24961211 Greek_Rhodes
8.73863262 Italian_Jews
9.46208751 Greek_Peloponnese
10.80838563 Sephardic_Jews
11.83539184 Albanian
12.02431287 Italian_Lazio
12.02857016 Turk_Cyprus
12.11886546 Greek_Thessaloniki
12.24540828 Italian_Marche

Distance to: GS_Dad
4.30868890 Greek_Smyrna
4.91504832 Greek_Fournoi
5.17204022 Moldavian_Jewish
5.45190792 Greek_Foca
5.63496229 Greek_Crete
5.77261639 Ashkenazi_Jews
6.68864710 Greek_Lemnos
6.75230331 Italian_Apulia
7.71374747 Greek_Athens
7.85713052 Italian_Calabria
7.92589427 Greek_Icaria
8.08626613 Italian_Sicily
8.25547697 Italian_Campania
8.42925264 Greek_Kos
8.58174225 Greek_Central
9.12971522 Italian_Abruzzo
9.35334165 Greek_Rhodes
9.82116083 Greek_Peloponnese
10.25797251 Italian_Jews
12.20171299 Greek_Thessaloniki
12.21934941 Sephardic_Jews
12.34886230 Turk_Cyprus
12.39140831 Albanian
12.77890840 Greek_Thrace
13.42118475 Greek_Thessaly

Distance to: YiaYia
3.17200252 Greek_Smyrna
3.28096023 Greek_Fournoi
3.55112658 Ashkenazi_Jews
3.56286402 Italian_Apulia
3.58474546 Greek_Lemnos
3.67001362 Moldavian_Jewish
4.18417256 Greek_Foca
4.21251706 Italian_Campania
4.35128717 Italian_Sicily
4.61775920 Italian_Calabria
4.64678383 Greek_Crete
5.30860622 Italian_Abruzzo
6.52811611 Greek_Athens
6.96586678 Greek_Central
7.48669486 Greek_Icaria
7.52856560 Greek_Kos
8.46044916 Italian_Jews
8.52415392 Greek_Rhodes
8.83970588 Greek_Peloponnese
10.76283420 Italian_Lazio
10.84557513 Sephardic_Jews
10.97390559 Italian_Marche
11.29568944 Albanian
11.69682436 Greek_Thrace
11.72839290 Greek_Thessaloniki

Distance to: Thea
3.30421988 Greek_Smyrna
4.34203282 Greek_Fournoi
4.74317499 Greek_Foca
5.11060163 Greek_Crete
5.46069309 Moldavian_Jewish
5.80812095 Ashkenazi_Jews
6.06139992 Greek_Lemnos
6.31830903 Italian_Apulia
7.30502355 Greek_Athens
7.38572874 Greek_Icaria
7.57147733 Italian_Calabria
7.75329020 Italian_Campania
7.84504742 Italian_Sicily
8.02794177 Greek_Kos
8.13544400 Greek_Central
8.64789391 Italian_Abruzzo
8.93572543 Greek_Rhodes
9.59593294 Greek_Peloponnese
10.41904645 Italian_Jews
12.01401636 Greek_Thessaloniki
12.06276125 Albanian
12.23795118 Sephardic_Jews
12.25849375 Turk_Cyprus
12.56247702 Greek_Thrace
13.23737168 Greek_Thessaly

Distance to: 1/2Fourn1/2Calabria
2.79392197 Greek_Smyrna
4.00599551 Greek_Lemnos
4.00897743 Greek_Fournoi
4.34478998 Italian_Apulia
4.37866418 Italian_Campania
4.41004535 Greek_Foca
4.81914930 Greek_Crete
5.13167614 Italian_Sicily
5.28952739 Italian_Calabria
5.47347239 Italian_Abruzzo
5.51701912 Ashkenazi_Jews
5.86982112 Moldavian_Jewish
6.97040171 Greek_Athens
7.19273244 Greek_Icaria
7.20104853 Greek_Central
7.48552603 Greek_Kos
8.30495033 Greek_Rhodes
9.47337321 Greek_Peloponnese
9.65230542 Italian_Jews
11.07334638 Italian_Lazio
11.12457837 Italian_Marche
11.43292176 Sephardic_Jews
11.47851036 Albanian
12.11118904 Greek_Thrace
12.16508940 Greek_Thessaloniki

Distance to: 1/2Fourni/12Chios
4.13869545 Italian_Calabria
4.85386444 Greek_Kos
5.28865767 Italian_Jews
5.31683176 Greek_Rhodes
5.42234267 Ashkenazi_Jews
5.49284080 Greek_Crete
5.49572561 Greek_Fournoi
5.85439151 Greek_Icaria
6.26687322 Moldavian_Jewish
6.29491859 Italian_Campania
6.88668280 Italian_Sicily
6.90823422 Greek_Smyrna
6.94892797 Sephardic_Jews
8.76722875 Greek_Lemnos
8.95516052 Italian_Apulia
9.13623008 Turk_Cyprus
9.26446976 Italian_Abruzzo
10.09201665 Greek_Foca
10.92300325 Morocco_Jews
11.35661922 Greek_Cypriot
12.27643271 Greek_Athens
12.57365500 Greek_Central
14.36875082 Greek_Cappadocia
14.59492035 Greek_Peloponnese
14.64803277 Italian_Marche


My immediate family is more mainland and Italian shifted than the average. I will only post my results since there is already a lot of text.



Distance ratio: ( AC / BC ) ↑
A: GS
B: Greek_Fournoi
C: ↴
0.70485872 Greek_Foca
0.75073498 Greek_Athens
0.79061642 Italian_Apulia
0.79159156 Greek_Central
0.82014737 Greek_Peloponnese
0.83376097 Albanian
0.84093015 Greek_Thessaloniki
0.85112914 Greek_Thrace
0.85150902 Italian_Abruzzo
0.85501405 Moldavian_Jewish
0.85626721 Greek_Thessaly
0.86908169 Italian_Lazio
0.87380644 Italian_Marche
0.87478680 Albanian_Kosovo
0.87599710 Bulgarian_Thrace
0.88257032 Ashkenazi_Jews
0.88923551 Italian_Romagna
0.89124482 Italian_Campania
0.89537317 Turk_Makedonya
0.90199297 Greek_Macedonia
0.90300960 Bulgarian_East
0.90811500 Italian_Tuscany
0.90971730 Bulgarian_Central
0.91003032 Moldavian_Gagauz
0.91200787 Pomak_Bulgaria

Distance ratio: ( AC / BC ) ↓
A: GS
B: Greek_Fournoi
C: ↴
2.36896140 Greek_Crete
1.57713927 Greek_Kos
1.43974919 Greek_Rhodes
1.29278568 Turk_Cyprus
1.19329516 Turk_Central_West
1.18559782 Turk_West_BlackSea
1.18421775 Greek_Cypriot
1.17980481 Turk_Central_East
1.17947967 Greek_Icaria
1.17694981 Greek_Cappadocia
1.16772470 Nusayri_Turkey
1.16076684 Turk_Southeast
1.15950959 Turk_South
1.15919625 Turk_Southwest
1.15810677 Turk_Central_Black_Sea
1.14582442 Lebanese_Muslim
1.14271231 Turk_East
1.13817997 Azerbaijani_Turkey
1.13649572 Azerbaijani
1.13625774 Sephardic_Jews
1.13367177 Italian_Calabria
1.13265403 Lebanese_Christian
1.13187440 Turk_Northwest
1.12815162 Azerbaijani_Iran
1.12722966 Armenian_West



For those of you who know, these are the Vahaduo calculators we are not able to link to or directly discuss the creator of, right? I don't believe I could post any answers I receive to where the samples came from on this site, right? Just don't want to violate TOS. Thanks.

dosas
03-11-2021, 10:28 PM
I ran the usual components with all the Greek samples (averages), but used the Steppe_EN samples for the relevant proxy (Vonyuchka+Progress) rather than the usual Yamnaya stuff.

Dunno if they look any different,


https://i.ibb.co/TWkfkyg/Screenshot-2021-03-12-Vahaduo-Admixture-JS-21-01.png


Here's the list if you want to run your own, and cba to compile it:



Barcin_N:I0707,0.122929,0.184826,0.001886,-0.110144,0.054779,-0.048527,0.00141,-0.011769,0.036201,0.08474,0.011205,0.016335,-0.021704,0.002615,-0.038409,-0.014187,0.022817,0.00114,0.012947,-0.002751,-0.011979,0.009645,-0.008627,0.001566,-0.001676
Barcin_N:I0708,0.119514,0.173656,-0.003017,-0.101745,0.042469,-0.046854,-0.00094,-0.012692,0.021066,0.074717,0.009419,0.009142,-0.017691,0.000963,-0.041938,-0.007955,0.024121,0.000633,0.015209,-0.013882,-0.022336,0.008903,-0.012448,-0.012652,-0.007305
Barcin_N:I0709,0.119514,0.19092,0.008674,-0.108206,0.050163,-0.044065,-0.00282,-0.003923,0.038655,0.088202,0.006983,0.012289,-0.023488,0.001789,-0.042345,-0.023999,0.002347,-0.003674,0.011941,-0.019759,-0.006239,0.012242,-0.000616,-0.00723,-0.002994
Barcin_N:I0723,0.118376,0.178733,0.009805,-0.103037,0.057241,-0.05773,0.003525,0.000462,0.041518,0.080548,0.0016 24,0.004946,-0.027056,-0.005643,-0.043702,-0.006762,0.03729,0.00152,0.017975,-0.009254,-0.015473,0.002968,0.006779,-0.00012,-0.006227
Barcin_N:I0724,0.117238,0.168578,0.018856,-0.10013,0.052933,-0.047969,-0.00094,-0.004384,0.031088,0.075446,0.008931,0.01139,-0.017691,-0.003303,-0.045059,0.001989,0.041853,0.012922,0.020363,-0.009755,-0.018717,0.004699,-0.007518,-0.001928,-0.008023
Barcin_N:I0726,0.120652,0.180764,0.00264,-0.104653,0.053548,-0.054663,-0.005875,-0.002308,0.035383,0.088749,0.009743,0.015586,-0.027651,0.006881,-0.040716,-0.037655,-0.001825,0.002914,0.0225,-0.015382,-0.013351,0.007666,-0.004683,0.00253,0.006945
Barcin_N:I0727,0.114961,0.185842,0.004525,-0.103683,0.036314,-0.053547,-0.00141,-0.008077,0.031088,0.077633,0.005846,0.01109,-0.031813,0.00055,-0.056052,-0.010607,0.022817,0.009122,0.032807,-0.015007,-0.017968,0.005441,-0.016022,-0.007953,0.008023
Barcin_N:I0736,0.119514,0.183811,0.006788,-0.091732,0.049855,-0.049921,-0.0047,-0.006,0.04295,0.077815,0.012829,0.013338,-0.020961,-0.011423,-0.04058,0.005701,0.033248,-0.007475,0.007793,-0.007003,-0.016097,0.006306,-0.005916,-0.000964,-0.007544
Barcin_N:I0744,0.119514,0.186857,0.009428,-0.107883,0.058472,-0.052989,-0.00987,-0.01223,0.03027,0.082371,0.010393,0.01139,-0.031813,0.003441,-0.048045,-0.011668,0.022426,0.000633,0.005279,-0.007253,-0.012852,-0.000124,-0.004683,0.002289,0.001796
Barcin_N:I0745,0.118376,0.178733,-0.002263,-0.098838,0.049548,-0.046575,-0.010105,-0.002538,0.036814,0.075628,0.010068,0.014237,-0.017542,0.00812,-0.035966,-0.020949,0.005346,0.006334,0.020489,-0.014382,-0.017095,0.008037,0.001356,-0.009278,-0.004191
Barcin_N:I0746,0.120652,0.180764,0.011691,-0.093024,0.048317,-0.043507,-0.012691,-0.010615,0.034565,0.078726,0.010393,0.009591,-0.023786,0.006606,-0.048316,-0.027844,0.005607,0.004054,0.012947,-0.017383,-0.013102,0.011005,-0.006532,-0.005543,-0.002036
Barcin_N:I1096,0.120652,0.184826,0.008297,-0.101745,0.051702,-0.044344,-0.005405,-0.003692,0.039473,0.0831,0.010718,0.017385,-0.02438,0.006331,-0.043702,-0.0179,0.025946,-0.00076,0.012821,-0.005878,-0.015722,0.00507,-0.005793,0.007832,-0.016406
Barcin_N:I1097,0.120652,0.18178,-0.001886,-0.106591,0.054472,-0.048527,-0.00611,-0.007615,0.038246,0.084922,0.008769,0.014687,-0.022894,0.000413,-0.048859,-0.006629,0.021383,0.003421,0.013952,-0.015257,-0.013975,0.005441,-0.011462,-0.009158,-0.002515
Barcin_N:I1098,0.114961,0.179749,-0.004148,-0.092701,0.040931,-0.045459,-0.001175,-0.010846,0.030883,0.068703,0.009743,0.007044,-0.019623,0.000688,-0.044381,-0.001326,0.032987,0.003294,0.006788,-0.001501,-0.01148,0.007914,0.007025,-0.002771,-0.00958
Barcin_N:I1099,0.111547,0.19092,0.001508,-0.0969,0.055395,-0.04518,0.003525,-0.010615,0.037223,0.077997,0.006171,0.01124,-0.020515,0.00289,-0.039902,-0.016309,0.021644,0.00266,0.013324,-0.007504,-0.003868,0.002844,0.002588,-0.003012,-0.006347
Barcin_N:I1100,0.112685,0.17264,-0.001131,-0.084949,0.049855,-0.054384,-0.00705,-0.002308,0.042132,0.088749,-0.003573,0.008692,-0.02557,-0.006881,-0.040173,-0.00769,0.031553,-0.00266,0.007793,-0.01063,-0.023708,-0.00136,0.003574,-0.003253,-0.001557
Barcin_N:I1101,0.114961,0.179749,0.006411,-0.100776,0.054779,-0.043786,-0.00094,-0.000462,0.042541,0.078544,0.005684,0.008692,-0.023042,0.007432,-0.034744,-0.010209,0.01682,0.003927,0.018729,-0.006378,-0.020713,0.004575,-0.000616,-0.003133,-0.010179
Barcin_N:I1102,0.106994,0.170609,0.00528,-0.097546,0.059703,-0.045459,-0.003995,-0.007846,0.030474,0.08474,0.005196,0.010041,-0.029732,-0.006193,-0.031759,0.001856,0.029597,0.002154,0.013073,-0.008754,-0.009109,0.010634,-0.003821,-0.003856,-0.002634
Barcin_N:I1103,0.112685,0.169593,-0.006411,-0.10013,0.044008,-0.046854,-0.00705,-0.005538,0.039269,0.075992,0.011367,0.013638,-0.02215,-0.005505,-0.036644,-0.01127,0.019427,-0.002027,0.010559,-0.008004,-0.016346,0.005564,-0.011216,-0.009278,-0.006945
Barcin_N:I1580,0.127482,0.182795,-0.003017,-0.103037,0.052317,-0.04769,-0.008695,-0.012692,0.040496,0.076904,0.007307,0.014987,-0.020961,-0.003716,-0.043159,0.001724,0.035986,-0.001647,0.006788,-0.009254,-0.010357,-0.001731,0.000246,-0.000482,-0.010298
Barcin_N:I1581,0.113823,0.175687,0.001131,-0.110467,0.057241,-0.045459,-0.003995,-0.008077,0.040905,0.084558,0.004222,0.013488,-0.02215,-0.000826,-0.04248,0.003978,0.040549,0.004687,0.005405,-0.005628,-0.010731,0.00643,-0.013557,0.003494,-0.000958
Barcin_N:I1583,0.119514,0.180764,0.00264,-0.10756,0.048932,-0.051037,-0.010575,-0.008769,0.035792,0.087656,0.012342,0.012139,-0.023786,0.005092,-0.036644,-0.006497,0.020861,0.002534,0.011816,-0.003877,-0.011729,0.004822,0.001232,-0.006748,-0.00491
Steppe_EN:VJ1001,0.112685,0.081242,0.003017,0.0978 69,-0.059396,0.046017,0.00564,-0.010846,-0.07956,-0.085469,0.004547,0.003147,0.000446,-0.017203,0.038002,0.012463,-0.014212,-0.003294,-0.000628,0.005378,0.008235,-0.001113,0.00912,-0.007832,-0.00958
Steppe_EN:PG2001,0.112685,0.079211,0.008674,0.1052 99,-0.055087,0.044344,0.00376,-0.007154,-0.077719,-0.076904,0.00682,-0.001049,-0.006095,-0.025735,0.030809,0.000796,-0.009648,-0.004941,-0.004022,0.006253,-0.011105,0.000989,0.005916,0.003735,-0.008502
Steppe_EN:PG2004,0.1161,0.072103,0.023759,0.126294 ,-0.053548,0.054941,-0.00235,-0.009461,-0.069334,-0.090754,0.00747,0.004346,-0.001041,-0.024359,0.031894,0.004641,-0.015125,-0.001774,-0.000377,0.007253,-0.002121,0.004946,0.01368,0.008555,0.002754
CHG:KK1,0.091058,0.102568,-0.083344,-0.00323,-0.08617,0.020638,0.024911,-0.001846,-0.128236,-0.074717,-0.006333,0.023979,-0.054856,0.004404,0.026601,-0.03275,0.02386,-0.013429,-0.022249,0.034767,0.033815,-0.007048,0.006532,-0.025787,-0.002036
IRN_N:I1290,0.036423,0.069056,-0.151603,-0.011951,-0.121253,0.011992,0.017626,-0.005307,-0.084059,-0.051026,0.003085,-0.005695,0.009217,-0.014588,0.026058,0.068814,-0.005737,0.008615,0.014581,-0.032391,0.01435,-0.02201,-0.016885,-0.041452,0.02874
IRN_N:I1945,0.048944,0.069056,-0.15198,-0.000646,-0.128332,0.031236,0.014806,0.002538,-0.086105,-0.058498,-0.007795,0.002997,-0.001338,-0.000413,0.029858,0.054494,-0.015516,0.003927,0.016466,-0.027763,0.002121,-0.023618,-0.008258,-0.034342,0.020118
IRN_N:I1947,0.042115,0.062963,-0.158768,0.014858,-0.118176,0.020638,0.012691,-0.005077,-0.078537,-0.061414,-0.00065,-0.003297,0.001041,-0.012937,0.034473,0.063908,-0.004955,0.014823,0.006913,-0.035017,0.010357,-0.029182,-0.012325,-0.035788,0.022752
IRN_N:I1949,0.034147,0.058901,-0.162162,0.017119,-0.119407,0.029284,0.018331,0.001385,-0.077515,-0.047381,-0.005359,0.003297,0.005352,-0.002477,0.03963,0.049721,0.012647,0.000633,0.0184 78,-0.03064,0.012478,-0.039322,-0.012202,-0.048682,0.013651
IRN_N:I1954,0.053497,0.072103,-0.150848,0.004199,-0.126177,0.024542,0.022091,0.000462,-0.086514,-0.05376,-0.00341,-0.005395,0.008176,-0.000963,0.02823,0.043755,-0.01356,0.006334,0.011816,-0.04127,0.003494,-0.030048,-0.005669,-0.036391,0.025866
RUS_Devils_Gate_Cave_N:NEO236,0.01935,-0.448864,0.067127,-0.049742,-0.041238,-0.046017,0.00846,0.003,0.003681,0.024602,-0.054563,-0.001798,-0.001933,0.012799,-0.010858,-0.005569,0.002477,0.000127,0.017849,0.012631,0.014 599,-0.029553,-0.019843,-0.000843,-0.010538
RUS_Devils_Gate_Cave_N:NEO238,0.025041,-0.446833,0.069013,-0.050065,-0.037545,-0.036256,0.002115,0.008307,0.007772,0.024237,-0.04417,-0.002997,-0.002081,0.003578,-0.009772,-0.01074,0.004563,0.007095,0.015838,0.005503,0.0086 1,-0.020155,-0.01442,-0.001205,-0.017364
RUS_Devils_Gate_Cave_N:NEO239,0.006829,-0.439724,0.07467,-0.051357,-0.03693,-0.036256,-0.007755,0.010384,0.012271,0.014943,-0.040922,-0.008992,-0.013082,0.008808,-0.005429,-0.01896,0.005998,0.01875,0.016341,0.012131,0.00087 3,-0.035365,-0.01405,-0.008314,-0.017962
RUS_Devils_Gate_Cave_N:NEO240,0.013659,-0.44074,0.078064,-0.053295,-0.033852,-0.039602,0.01081,0.01223,0.00225,0.01385,-0.054725,-0.005545,0.004757,0.009496,-0.012351,-0.018297,-0.016168,0.009628,0.019735,0.00988,0.01123,-0.025843,-0.021568,0.000602,-0.012454
Levant_Natufian:I0861,0.01935,0.135065,-0.039221,-0.135984,0.026774,-0.076137,-0.019036,-0.024691,0.100626,-0.008018,0.02858,-0.019633,0.067343,0.001651,0.022801,0.02612,-0.0103,0.006714,-0.018101,0.041395,-0.004118,-0.003215,-0.014297,-0.011206,0.011975
WHG,0.1246365,0.116278,0.184789,0.189279,0.1546445 ,0.0464355,0.0131605,0.0372675,0.0890705,0.017768,-0.0153455,-0.015811,0.0159065,-0.0030275,0.053338,0.0582065,0.00502,0.016343,-0.0093015,0.055589,0.0944585,0.0111905,-0.049607,-0.160866,0.0170045

Greekscholar
03-11-2021, 11:27 PM
snip

Neat. Here are some comparisons with Yamnaya "standard model" I picked out just a few, but the overall patterns seems to hold.

Steppe EN



Target: Greek_Crete
Distance: 1.7968% / 0.01796809
55.8 Barcin_N
23.4 Steppe_EN
9.4 IRN_N
8.2 Levant_Natufian
3.2 CHG

Target: Greek_Central_Macedonia
Distance: 2.4018% / 0.02401813
61.4 Barcin_N
35.2 Steppe_EN
2.6 WHG
0.8 Levant_Natufian

Target: GS_family(Fourni/Ikaria/Samos):GS(Fourni/Ikaria/Samos)
Distance: 3.0219% / 0.03021888
59.8 Barcin_N
24.4 Steppe_EN
8.2 Levant_Natufian
4.0 IRN_N
3.6 CHG


vs

Yamnaya Samara


Target: Greek_Crete
Distance: 1.7250% / 0.01724982
53.8 Barcin_N
19.8 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
12.0 IRN_N
8.4 Levant_Natufian
6.0 CHG

Target: Greek_Central_Macedonia
Distance: 2.2493% / 0.02249302
57.6 Barcin_N
34.2 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
4.4 IRN_N
2.2 WHG
1.6 Levant_Natufian

Target: GS_family(Fourni/Ikaria/Samos):GS(Fourni/Ikaria/Samos)
Distance: 2.8903% / 0.02890287
57.0 Barcin_N
23.2 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
8.6 Levant_Natufian
6.4 IRN_N
4.8 CHG


Fit is slightly worse, but not significantly. The other components don't move around that much, although the EN samples seem to suck up a little of the CHG/Iran N. I would say your EN samples work as well as the "standard model" Samara sample average in these models.

losAntonis
03-12-2021, 06:16 AM
Some preliminary Ydna/Mtdna results for my Greek friend (the same one as always ).

I'm still waiting for the data validation from YFull so in the meantime I've decided to use the built-in tools of WGSextract just to have an idea.

Ydna
43793

Mtdna
43794

Interesting Y-haplogroup for a Greek. I am looking forward to see him on YFull.
As far as I know, only one Greek I1 is on YFull, yet.
Is your friend from Smyrna? I heard from a I1 man from there, who did the Dante Labs test.

dosas
03-12-2021, 06:30 AM
Fit is slightly worse, but not significantly. The other components don't move around that much, although the EN samples seem to suck up a little of the CHG/Iran N. I would say your EN samples work as well as the "standard model" Samara sample average in these models.

Well, yeah, the fit should be worse since the EN samples are ancestral to the other Yamnaya samples and older (almost 1000 years apart). And, yeah, the averages that are EHG shifted should definitely show affinity to Samara rather than EN, although not by much I guess, and also eat up a bit of Barcin; it makes sense since its a divergent population towards that direction. But the Vonyuchka+Progress samples are the "original", so to speak, oldest Steppe population samples we have, if I am not mistaken, so it makes sense to try to use them in a model that attempts to show the least divergence, in relation to the other components.

The reason it came to my attention is because I noticed Davidski started using those in the models he attaches when he sends out his co-ordinates.

But, like you said, the differences don't seem to be that glaring.

What strikes me the most is how relatively little "Levant" all the groups show in comparison to CHG/Iran_N, which seems to be the real raison d'être for the Eastern affinities that those Greek groups show, towards NW Asia and the Caucasus/Iranian Plateau rather than the Levant proper. I think this is a much more interesting discussion, especially in light of recent events from certain trolls trying to re-infestate the Greek discussion with their hellbent theories that the Dodecanese, for example, are merely "Hellenized Lebanese".

It also seems to correlate nicely with the findings of the recent Calabrian Greek paper, they noticed the Iran_N/GHG shift, also (re-posting the relevant chart/plots under spoiler):


https://i.ibb.co/6tFzPwC/screencapture-www-nature-com-articles-s41598-021-82591-9-figures-2-1613300830198.png
https://i.ibb.co/d5jSVzt/screencapture-www-nature-com-articles-s41598-021-82591-9-figures-4-1613300886141.png

antpet
03-12-2021, 08:18 AM
I ran the usual components with all the Greek samples (averages), but used the Steppe_EN samples for the relevant proxy (Vonyuchka+Progress) rather than the usual Yamnaya stuff.

Here's the list if you want to run your own, and cba to compile it:



Barcin_N:I0707,0.122929,0.184826,0.001886,-0.110144,0.054779,-0.048527,0.00141,-0.011769,0.036201,0.08474,0.011205,0.016335,-0.021704,0.002615,-0.038409,-0.014187,0.022817,0.00114,0.012947,-0.002751,-0.011979,0.009645,-0.008627,0.001566,-0.001676
Barcin_N:I0708,0.119514,0.173656,-0.003017,-0.101745,0.042469,-0.046854,-0.00094,-0.012692,0.021066,0.074717,0.009419,0.009142,-0.017691,0.000963,-0.041938,-0.007955,0.024121,0.000633,0.015209,-0.013882,-0.022336,0.008903,-0.012448,-0.012652,-0.007305
Barcin_N:I0709,0.119514,0.19092,0.008674,-0.108206,0.050163,-0.044065,-0.00282,-0.003923,0.038655,0.088202,0.006983,0.012289,-0.023488,0.001789,-0.042345,-0.023999,0.002347,-0.003674,0.011941,-0.019759,-0.006239,0.012242,-0.000616,-0.00723,-0.002994
Barcin_N:I0723,0.118376,0.178733,0.009805,-0.103037,0.057241,-0.05773,0.003525,0.000462,0.041518,0.080548,0.0016 24,0.004946,-0.027056,-0.005643,-0.043702,-0.006762,0.03729,0.00152,0.017975,-0.009254,-0.015473,0.002968,0.006779,-0.00012,-0.006227
Barcin_N:I0724,0.117238,0.168578,0.018856,-0.10013,0.052933,-0.047969,-0.00094,-0.004384,0.031088,0.075446,0.008931,0.01139,-0.017691,-0.003303,-0.045059,0.001989,0.041853,0.012922,0.020363,-0.009755,-0.018717,0.004699,-0.007518,-0.001928,-0.008023
Barcin_N:I0726,0.120652,0.180764,0.00264,-0.104653,0.053548,-0.054663,-0.005875,-0.002308,0.035383,0.088749,0.009743,0.015586,-0.027651,0.006881,-0.040716,-0.037655,-0.001825,0.002914,0.0225,-0.015382,-0.013351,0.007666,-0.004683,0.00253,0.006945
Barcin_N:I0727,0.114961,0.185842,0.004525,-0.103683,0.036314,-0.053547,-0.00141,-0.008077,0.031088,0.077633,0.005846,0.01109,-0.031813,0.00055,-0.056052,-0.010607,0.022817,0.009122,0.032807,-0.015007,-0.017968,0.005441,-0.016022,-0.007953,0.008023
Barcin_N:I0736,0.119514,0.183811,0.006788,-0.091732,0.049855,-0.049921,-0.0047,-0.006,0.04295,0.077815,0.012829,0.013338,-0.020961,-0.011423,-0.04058,0.005701,0.033248,-0.007475,0.007793,-0.007003,-0.016097,0.006306,-0.005916,-0.000964,-0.007544
Barcin_N:I0744,0.119514,0.186857,0.009428,-0.107883,0.058472,-0.052989,-0.00987,-0.01223,0.03027,0.082371,0.010393,0.01139,-0.031813,0.003441,-0.048045,-0.011668,0.022426,0.000633,0.005279,-0.007253,-0.012852,-0.000124,-0.004683,0.002289,0.001796
Barcin_N:I0745,0.118376,0.178733,-0.002263,-0.098838,0.049548,-0.046575,-0.010105,-0.002538,0.036814,0.075628,0.010068,0.014237,-0.017542,0.00812,-0.035966,-0.020949,0.005346,0.006334,0.020489,-0.014382,-0.017095,0.008037,0.001356,-0.009278,-0.004191
Barcin_N:I0746,0.120652,0.180764,0.011691,-0.093024,0.048317,-0.043507,-0.012691,-0.010615,0.034565,0.078726,0.010393,0.009591,-0.023786,0.006606,-0.048316,-0.027844,0.005607,0.004054,0.012947,-0.017383,-0.013102,0.011005,-0.006532,-0.005543,-0.002036
Barcin_N:I1096,0.120652,0.184826,0.008297,-0.101745,0.051702,-0.044344,-0.005405,-0.003692,0.039473,0.0831,0.010718,0.017385,-0.02438,0.006331,-0.043702,-0.0179,0.025946,-0.00076,0.012821,-0.005878,-0.015722,0.00507,-0.005793,0.007832,-0.016406
Barcin_N:I1097,0.120652,0.18178,-0.001886,-0.106591,0.054472,-0.048527,-0.00611,-0.007615,0.038246,0.084922,0.008769,0.014687,-0.022894,0.000413,-0.048859,-0.006629,0.021383,0.003421,0.013952,-0.015257,-0.013975,0.005441,-0.011462,-0.009158,-0.002515
Barcin_N:I1098,0.114961,0.179749,-0.004148,-0.092701,0.040931,-0.045459,-0.001175,-0.010846,0.030883,0.068703,0.009743,0.007044,-0.019623,0.000688,-0.044381,-0.001326,0.032987,0.003294,0.006788,-0.001501,-0.01148,0.007914,0.007025,-0.002771,-0.00958
Barcin_N:I1099,0.111547,0.19092,0.001508,-0.0969,0.055395,-0.04518,0.003525,-0.010615,0.037223,0.077997,0.006171,0.01124,-0.020515,0.00289,-0.039902,-0.016309,0.021644,0.00266,0.013324,-0.007504,-0.003868,0.002844,0.002588,-0.003012,-0.006347
Barcin_N:I1100,0.112685,0.17264,-0.001131,-0.084949,0.049855,-0.054384,-0.00705,-0.002308,0.042132,0.088749,-0.003573,0.008692,-0.02557,-0.006881,-0.040173,-0.00769,0.031553,-0.00266,0.007793,-0.01063,-0.023708,-0.00136,0.003574,-0.003253,-0.001557
Barcin_N:I1101,0.114961,0.179749,0.006411,-0.100776,0.054779,-0.043786,-0.00094,-0.000462,0.042541,0.078544,0.005684,0.008692,-0.023042,0.007432,-0.034744,-0.010209,0.01682,0.003927,0.018729,-0.006378,-0.020713,0.004575,-0.000616,-0.003133,-0.010179
Barcin_N:I1102,0.106994,0.170609,0.00528,-0.097546,0.059703,-0.045459,-0.003995,-0.007846,0.030474,0.08474,0.005196,0.010041,-0.029732,-0.006193,-0.031759,0.001856,0.029597,0.002154,0.013073,-0.008754,-0.009109,0.010634,-0.003821,-0.003856,-0.002634
Barcin_N:I1103,0.112685,0.169593,-0.006411,-0.10013,0.044008,-0.046854,-0.00705,-0.005538,0.039269,0.075992,0.011367,0.013638,-0.02215,-0.005505,-0.036644,-0.01127,0.019427,-0.002027,0.010559,-0.008004,-0.016346,0.005564,-0.011216,-0.009278,-0.006945
Barcin_N:I1580,0.127482,0.182795,-0.003017,-0.103037,0.052317,-0.04769,-0.008695,-0.012692,0.040496,0.076904,0.007307,0.014987,-0.020961,-0.003716,-0.043159,0.001724,0.035986,-0.001647,0.006788,-0.009254,-0.010357,-0.001731,0.000246,-0.000482,-0.010298
Barcin_N:I1581,0.113823,0.175687,0.001131,-0.110467,0.057241,-0.045459,-0.003995,-0.008077,0.040905,0.084558,0.004222,0.013488,-0.02215,-0.000826,-0.04248,0.003978,0.040549,0.004687,0.005405,-0.005628,-0.010731,0.00643,-0.013557,0.003494,-0.000958
Barcin_N:I1583,0.119514,0.180764,0.00264,-0.10756,0.048932,-0.051037,-0.010575,-0.008769,0.035792,0.087656,0.012342,0.012139,-0.023786,0.005092,-0.036644,-0.006497,0.020861,0.002534,0.011816,-0.003877,-0.011729,0.004822,0.001232,-0.006748,-0.00491
Steppe_EN:VJ1001,0.112685,0.081242,0.003017,0.0978 69,-0.059396,0.046017,0.00564,-0.010846,-0.07956,-0.085469,0.004547,0.003147,0.000446,-0.017203,0.038002,0.012463,-0.014212,-0.003294,-0.000628,0.005378,0.008235,-0.001113,0.00912,-0.007832,-0.00958
Steppe_EN:PG2001,0.112685,0.079211,0.008674,0.1052 99,-0.055087,0.044344,0.00376,-0.007154,-0.077719,-0.076904,0.00682,-0.001049,-0.006095,-0.025735,0.030809,0.000796,-0.009648,-0.004941,-0.004022,0.006253,-0.011105,0.000989,0.005916,0.003735,-0.008502
Steppe_EN:PG2004,0.1161,0.072103,0.023759,0.126294 ,-0.053548,0.054941,-0.00235,-0.009461,-0.069334,-0.090754,0.00747,0.004346,-0.001041,-0.024359,0.031894,0.004641,-0.015125,-0.001774,-0.000377,0.007253,-0.002121,0.004946,0.01368,0.008555,0.002754
CHG:KK1,0.091058,0.102568,-0.083344,-0.00323,-0.08617,0.020638,0.024911,-0.001846,-0.128236,-0.074717,-0.006333,0.023979,-0.054856,0.004404,0.026601,-0.03275,0.02386,-0.013429,-0.022249,0.034767,0.033815,-0.007048,0.006532,-0.025787,-0.002036
IRN_N:I1290,0.036423,0.069056,-0.151603,-0.011951,-0.121253,0.011992,0.017626,-0.005307,-0.084059,-0.051026,0.003085,-0.005695,0.009217,-0.014588,0.026058,0.068814,-0.005737,0.008615,0.014581,-0.032391,0.01435,-0.02201,-0.016885,-0.041452,0.02874
IRN_N:I1945,0.048944,0.069056,-0.15198,-0.000646,-0.128332,0.031236,0.014806,0.002538,-0.086105,-0.058498,-0.007795,0.002997,-0.001338,-0.000413,0.029858,0.054494,-0.015516,0.003927,0.016466,-0.027763,0.002121,-0.023618,-0.008258,-0.034342,0.020118
IRN_N:I1947,0.042115,0.062963,-0.158768,0.014858,-0.118176,0.020638,0.012691,-0.005077,-0.078537,-0.061414,-0.00065,-0.003297,0.001041,-0.012937,0.034473,0.063908,-0.004955,0.014823,0.006913,-0.035017,0.010357,-0.029182,-0.012325,-0.035788,0.022752
IRN_N:I1949,0.034147,0.058901,-0.162162,0.017119,-0.119407,0.029284,0.018331,0.001385,-0.077515,-0.047381,-0.005359,0.003297,0.005352,-0.002477,0.03963,0.049721,0.012647,0.000633,0.0184 78,-0.03064,0.012478,-0.039322,-0.012202,-0.048682,0.013651
IRN_N:I1954,0.053497,0.072103,-0.150848,0.004199,-0.126177,0.024542,0.022091,0.000462,-0.086514,-0.05376,-0.00341,-0.005395,0.008176,-0.000963,0.02823,0.043755,-0.01356,0.006334,0.011816,-0.04127,0.003494,-0.030048,-0.005669,-0.036391,0.025866
RUS_Devils_Gate_Cave_N:NEO236,0.01935,-0.448864,0.067127,-0.049742,-0.041238,-0.046017,0.00846,0.003,0.003681,0.024602,-0.054563,-0.001798,-0.001933,0.012799,-0.010858,-0.005569,0.002477,0.000127,0.017849,0.012631,0.014 599,-0.029553,-0.019843,-0.000843,-0.010538
RUS_Devils_Gate_Cave_N:NEO238,0.025041,-0.446833,0.069013,-0.050065,-0.037545,-0.036256,0.002115,0.008307,0.007772,0.024237,-0.04417,-0.002997,-0.002081,0.003578,-0.009772,-0.01074,0.004563,0.007095,0.015838,0.005503,0.0086 1,-0.020155,-0.01442,-0.001205,-0.017364
RUS_Devils_Gate_Cave_N:NEO239,0.006829,-0.439724,0.07467,-0.051357,-0.03693,-0.036256,-0.007755,0.010384,0.012271,0.014943,-0.040922,-0.008992,-0.013082,0.008808,-0.005429,-0.01896,0.005998,0.01875,0.016341,0.012131,0.00087 3,-0.035365,-0.01405,-0.008314,-0.017962
RUS_Devils_Gate_Cave_N:NEO240,0.013659,-0.44074,0.078064,-0.053295,-0.033852,-0.039602,0.01081,0.01223,0.00225,0.01385,-0.054725,-0.005545,0.004757,0.009496,-0.012351,-0.018297,-0.016168,0.009628,0.019735,0.00988,0.01123,-0.025843,-0.021568,0.000602,-0.012454
Levant_Natufian:I0861,0.01935,0.135065,-0.039221,-0.135984,0.026774,-0.076137,-0.019036,-0.024691,0.100626,-0.008018,0.02858,-0.019633,0.067343,0.001651,0.022801,0.02612,-0.0103,0.006714,-0.018101,0.041395,-0.004118,-0.003215,-0.014297,-0.011206,0.011975
WHG,0.1246365,0.116278,0.184789,0.189279,0.1546445 ,0.0464355,0.0131605,0.0372675,0.0890705,0.017768,-0.0153455,-0.015811,0.0159065,-0.0030275,0.053338,0.0582065,0.00502,0.016343,-0.0093015,0.055589,0.0944585,0.0111905,-0.049607,-0.160866,0.0170045


My results from Cyprus.

Target: Andreas_scaled
Distance: 2.0413% / 0.02041301
55.2 Barcin_N
15.8 IRN_N
14.2 Levant_Natufian
9.4 CHG
5.4 Steppe_EN

bovefex
03-12-2021, 09:33 AM
The reason it came to my attention is because I noticed Davidski started using those in the models he attaches when he sends out his co-ordinates.


Kind of unrelated, but would someone be willing to share which samples Davidski uses for these new models?

XXD
03-12-2021, 09:35 AM
I get very high steppe:

Target: XXD_scaled
Distance: 2.5232% / 0.02523211

53.8 Barcin_N
37.4 Steppe_EN
6.4 Levant_Natufian
1.4 IRN_N
0.4 RUS_Devil's Gate
0.2 WHG

Andrewid
03-12-2021, 10:47 AM
And more from Cyprus:

Target: Andrewid_scaled
Distance: 2.2015% / 0.02201462
52.2 Barcin_N
16.0 IRN_N
13.4 Levant_Natufian
9.6 CHG
8.8 Steppe_EN

lacreme
03-12-2021, 11:17 AM
Interesting Y-haplogroup for a Greek. I am looking forward to see him on YFull.
As far as I know, only one Greek I1 is on YFull, yet.
Is your friend from Smyrna? I heard from a I1 man from there, who did the Dante Labs test.

Yes that's him,the lone Greek sample right now on the I-L22 tree on Yfull and with paternal ancestry from Smyrna.

My friend is placed on the I-Y16808 subclade, with his final placement further downstream to be determined. Taking into account the ethnicity (and place of origin) of the rest of the few other available samples* on this subclade IMHO its dispersal fits very well with the routes that Goths followed during their raids as well as the trade route between the Varangians and the Eastern Roman Empire... I wonder if it was dispersed in the lower half of the Balkans straight from either or both of them or from populations like the Vlachs. What do you think ?

*Some men from Central and West-Central Sweden on younger clades downstream, A man from the area of Dnieper in Ukraine and at least 4 Bulgarian Pomaks whose placement under the upstream I-Y17218 clade is unknown to me.

XXD
03-12-2021, 11:53 AM
It is either from the Slavs or the Varangians. Even today, there are a few Asia Minor Greeks with the surname Βαράγγης (Varangis = Varangian). Many Varangians were likely R1a and I1 anyway.

Vlachs do carry this marker at low frequency, like most Balkan populations.

XXD
03-12-2021, 12:04 PM
When I say Slavs, I mean that I1 probably became widespread in the southern Balkans during the Slavic migrations, who had already assimilated large numbers of Goths. However, there were earlier raids (e.g. the Heruli; Goths in Thessaloniki, etc.), who may account for a smaller amount of the I1 in Greece.

I guess the more people test, it will be easier to find out which route most of these exotic elements used to enter the Helladic region.

lacreme
03-12-2021, 12:05 PM
It is either from the Slavs or the Varangians. Even today, there are a few Asia Minor Greeks with the surname Βαράγγης (Varangis = Varangian). Many Varangians were likely R1a and I1 anyway.

Vlachs do carry this marker at low frequency, like most Balkan populations.

That's very interesting! Of the people with this surname do you happen to know their original areas of origin in Asia Minor ?

dosas
03-12-2021, 12:18 PM
Varangian was a diverse term, as well. It did not only refer to Scandinavian Vikings and Kievan Rus, but also to Anglo-Saxons. After the Normal conquest of the British Isles in the 1060s, a great number of mercenaries and nobility of Anglo-Saxon origin found refuge in Constantinople, who were waging war on the Normans in Epirus themselves.

According to Ordericus Vitalis, in his Historia Ecclesiastica:


“The English groaned aloud for their lost liberty and plotted ceaselessly to find some way of shaking off that what was so intolerable and unaccustomed…. Some of them who were still in the flower of youth travelled into remote lands and bravely offered their arms to Alexius, emperor of Constantinople, a man of great wisdom and nobility. Robert Guiscard, the duke of Apulia, had taken up arms against him in support of Michael, whom the Greeks, resenting the power of the senate, had driven from the imperial throne. Consequently the English exiles were warmly welcomed by the Greeks and were sent into battle against the Norman forces, which were too powerful for the Greeks alone…This is the reason for the English exodus to Ionia; the emigrants and their heir faithfully served the holy empire, and are still honoured among the Greeks by Emperor, nobility and people alike.”


https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/47/The_body_of_Leo_V_is_dragged_to_the_Hippodrome_thr ough_the_Skyla_Gate.jpg/1920px-The_body_of_Leo_V_is_dragged_to_the_Hippodrome_thr ough_the_Skyla_Gate.jpg

dosas
03-12-2021, 12:34 PM
I get very high steppe:

Target: XXD_scaled
Distance: 2.5232% / 0.02523211

53.8 Barcin_N
37.4 Steppe_EN
6.4 Levant_Natufian
1.4 IRN_N
0.4 RUS_Devil's Gate
0.2 WHG


Your Pontic Greek ancestry must have been related to Peloponnesian/Southern Greek transplants by Catherine the Great in the Crimean region, right before the last Russo-Turkish war, and not Pontic Greeks from Transcaucasia.

XXD
03-12-2021, 01:21 PM
Your Pontic Greek ancestry must have been related to Peloponnesian/Southern Greek transplants by Catherine the Great in the Crimean region, right before the last Russo-Turkish war, and not Pontic Greeks from Transcaucasia.

Possibly, although it was my great great grandmother, so in theory I would have maximally 6.5% of her ancestry after 6 generations. Her surname was Pavlidou. My other great grandmother, who was from Nigde, also carried the surname Pavlidou, and she was almost certainly genetically Anatolian, as I have at least 30 matches from Kastamoni and Nigde to this day, all with a mixed Anatolian Greek/Pontic profile.

XXD
03-12-2021, 01:22 PM
That's very interesting! Of the people with this surname do you happen to know their original areas of origin in Asia Minor ?

I'm afraid I do not know them personally.

lacreme
03-12-2021, 02:04 PM
I'm afraid I do not know them personally.

Unfortunately I couldn't find any mention of people with this surname on the "Ονομαστικόν ευρετήριον αγροτών προσφύγων - Αθήναι: Επιτροπή Αποκαταστάσεως Προσφύγων, 1928" series of books hosted on
https://www0.epm.gr/epm.gr/epm.htm
Not that it was a complete recording of the refugees, just of the farmers.


Varangian was a diverse term, as well. It did not only refer to Scandinavian Vikings and Kievan Rus, but also to Anglo-Saxons. After the Normal conquest of the British Isles in the 1060s, a great number of mercenaries and nobility of Anglo-Saxon origin found refuge in Constantinople, who were waging war on the Normans in Epirus themselves.

According to Ordericus Vitalis, in his Historia Ecclesiastica:




https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/47/The_body_of_Leo_V_is_dragged_to_the_Hippodrome_thr ough_the_Skyla_Gate.jpg/1920px-The_body_of_Leo_V_is_dragged_to_the_Hippodrome_thr ough_the_Skyla_Gate.jpg


That's also interesting but while there are a couple of Irish on a sister branch of my friend's specific subclade and some British on a sister branch of a subclade further up ( and older), on my friend's subclade there aren't any people connected with the British Islands yet. Not on Yfull at least.
43838

I may create a thread on the appropriate part of the site to get in touch with people who have access to the FTDNA I-L22 project and on samples not yet uploaded/published.

Dorian9
03-12-2021, 02:44 PM
Thank you but I'm more interested about any movements/raids/resettlements that happened in this specific part of Western Asia minor (and northwards up to Smyrni ) .

Judging by the location ,I think these guys are a good candidate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gothograecia

Greekscholar
03-12-2021, 03:57 PM
Well, yeah, the fit should be worse since the EN samples are ancestral to the other Yamnaya samples and older (almost 1000 years apart). And, yeah, the averages that are EHG shifted should definitely show affinity to Samara rather than EN, although not by much I guess, and also eat up a bit of Barcin; it makes sense since its a divergent population towards that direction. But the Vonyuchka+Progress samples are the "original", so to speak, oldest Steppe population samples we have, if I am not mistaken, so it makes sense to try to use them in a model that attempts to show the least divergence, in relation to the other components.

The reason it came to my attention is because I noticed Davidski started using those in the models he attaches when he sends out his co-ordinates.

But, like you said, the differences don't seem to be that glaring.

What strikes me the most is how relatively little "Levant" all the groups show in comparison to CHG/Iran_N, which seems to be the real raison d'être for the Eastern affinities that those Greek groups show, towards NW Asia and the Caucasus/Iranian Plateau rather than the Levant proper. I think this is a much more interesting discussion, especially in light of recent events from certain trolls trying to re-infestate the Greek discussion with their hellbent theories that the Dodecanese, for example, are merely "Hellenized Lebanese".

It also seems to correlate nicely with the findings of the recent Calabrian Greek paper, they noticed the Iran_N/GHG shift, also (re-posting the relevant chart/plots under spoiler):


https://i.ibb.co/6tFzPwC/screencapture-www-nature-com-articles-s41598-021-82591-9-figures-2-1613300830198.png
https://i.ibb.co/d5jSVzt/screencapture-www-nature-com-articles-s41598-021-82591-9-figures-4-1613300886141.png


Natufian like admixture in Greeks probably shouldn't be as big a topic as we make it. The samples themselves show plenty of Anatolian sources from various time periods that could have added this admixture to Greeks. I think it is the BA models where G25 tools really likes to split Anatolian and Levant sources up to improve fit for Islanders that keep us coming back to the question and the answer could just be "overfitting." I don't really know.


Target: TUR_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N
Distance: 1.5893% / 0.01589286
78.0 Barcin_N
10.2 Levant_Natufian
7.0 CHG
4.8 IRN_N


Target: TUR_Alalakh_MLBA
Distance: 3.4449% / 0.03444945
47.4 Barcin_N
25.6 IRN_N
18.8 Levant_Natufian
8.2 CHG

Target: TUR_Arslantepe_LC
Distance: 2.9580% / 0.02957994
55.0 Barcin_N
18.4 IRN_N
16.2 CHG
10.4 Levant_Natufian

peloponnesian
03-12-2021, 04:35 PM
With dosas Steppe_EN model I and my father get:

Target: me
Distance: 3.2274% / 0.03227357
62.2 Barcin_N
32.8 Steppe_EN
2.4 WHG
1.8 Levant_Natufian
0.8 RUS_Devils_Gate_Cave_N

Target: father
Distance: 2.1905% / 0.02190468
62.8 Barcin_N
27.0 Steppe_EN
4.6 IRN_N
3.2 Levant_Natufian
2.2 WHG
0.2 RUS_Devils_Gate_Cave_N

I think I need something Baltic to get a better fit, not sure. Interesting that the individual Barcin_N and Steppe_EN samples look to eat most of the Levant and Iran_N that we get in the "classic" model. Between Iran_N and excess CHG I've noticed we prefer Iran_N, for what it's worth.

Markos
03-12-2021, 05:06 PM
I decided to subscribe to MyHeritage and found the earliest record of my paternal lineage going back to 1808 in Syros, confirming our family's oral history which is pretty cool! It looks like my paternal family were in Syro at least for the entire 19th century, shifting to Samos from then on until the present day. My grandmother's family is said to be from Samos forever, but her maiden name is fairly common so it will be harder to pinpoint through that alone.

Does anybody know how to find records of spouses? Unfortunately, my family name does not show up in their marriage collections. Sigh...

Greekscholar
03-12-2021, 05:12 PM
With dosas Steppe_EN model I and my father get:

Target: me
Distance: 3.2274% / 0.03227357
62.2 Barcin_N
32.8 Steppe_EN
2.4 WHG
1.8 Levant_Natufian
0.8 RUS_Devils_Gate_Cave_N

Target: father
Distance: 2.1905% / 0.02190468
62.8 Barcin_N
27.0 Steppe_EN
4.6 IRN_N
3.2 Levant_Natufian
2.2 WHG
0.2 RUS_Devils_Gate_Cave_N

I think I need something Baltic to get a better fit, not sure. Interesting that the individual Barcin_N and Steppe_EN samples look to eat most of the Levant and Iran_N that we get in the "classic" model. Between Iran_N and excess CHG I've noticed we prefer Iran_N, for what it's worth.

You can try this sample. It may improve fit a little bit.

Baltic_LVA_HG,0.1292603,0.1004104,0.1802636,0.1972 329,0.1064236,0.0560919,0.0083574,0.0207106,0.0524 476,-0.0261394,-0.0046788,-0.0181151,0.0281434,-0.0053759,0.0355759,0.0480141,0.003072,0.0040856,-0.0059236,0.042325,0.0613526,0.0130531,-0.0262979,-0.1110549,0.0095949

Greekscholar
03-12-2021, 05:17 PM
I decided to subscribe to MyHeritage and found the earliest record of my paternal lineage going back to 1808 in Syros, confirming our family's oral history which is pretty cool! It looks like my paternal family were in Syro at least for the entire 19th century, shifting to Samos from then on until the present day. My grandmother's family is said to be from Samos forever, but her maiden name is fairly common so it will be harder to pinpoint through that alone.

Does anybody know how to find records of spouses? Unfortunately, my family name does not show up in their marriage collections. Sigh...

That's great! I found a very rare surname in my family tree there too working as a merchant in 1889. His father's name is given and it matches a man who our family tree says lived on Fourni a generation earlier. Same man? I don't know for sure, but records for this family are so rare that every one I find is important.

peloponnesian
03-12-2021, 06:43 PM
You can try this sample. It may improve fit a little bit.

Baltic_LVA_HG,0.1292603,0.1004104,0.1802636,0.1972 329,0.1064236,0.0560919,0.0083574,0.0207106,0.0524 476,-0.0261394,-0.0046788,-0.0181151,0.0281434,-0.0053759,0.0355759,0.0480141,0.003072,0.0040856,-0.0059236,0.042325,0.0613526,0.0130531,-0.0262979,-0.1110549,0.0095949

This didn't improve the distances but thanks. The only samples that improve it from those I checked are the 3 Baltic_BA but they get inflated percentages and are anachronistic so I dunno.

Sorcelow
03-12-2021, 06:49 PM
This didn't improve the distances but thanks. The only samples that improve it from those I checked are the 3 Baltic_BA but they get inflated percentages and are anachronistic so I dunno.

Try this,

Baltic_HG,0.149868802,0.136380306,0.209730848,0.19 0840117,0.156106048,0.072437149,0.038002007,0.0636 88237,0.046382364,-0.072430537,-0.000902502,-0.05876715,0.106677275,0.144928109,-0.071019374,-0.005004616,0.021966607,0.003931878,-0.009757506,0.005758381,0.003759276,-0.024595198,0.007626296,-0.077723948,0.014953698

Markos
03-12-2021, 06:52 PM
That's great! I found a very rare surname in my family tree there too working as a merchant in 1889. His father's name is given and it matches a man who our family tree says lived on Fourni a generation earlier. Same man? I don't know for sure, but records for this family are so rare that every one I find is important.

Wow, cool! That ancestor of mine from 1808 actually has the exact same name as my father. So I am assuming, based on what I've been told, it's most likely a direct descendent and the naming tradition hasn't been broken since. But I was hoping these records could shed light on other surnames belonging to my family but I've reached a dead end quite quickly, haha. The problem being, of course, these voting records are male only. Not sure what to do, hmmm.

peloponnesian
03-12-2021, 08:46 PM
Try this,

Baltic_HG,0.149868802,0.136380306,0.209730848,0.19 0840117,0.156106048,0.072437149,0.038002007,0.0636 88237,0.046382364,-0.072430537,-0.000902502,-0.05876715,0.106677275,0.144928109,-0.071019374,-0.005004616,0.021966607,0.003931878,-0.009757506,0.005758381,0.003759276,-0.024595198,0.007626296,-0.077723948,0.014953698

That's better, thanks.

Target: me
Distance: 2.7135% / 0.02713517
59.8 Barcin_N
29.2 Steppe_EN
5.8 Baltic_HG
2.2 IRN_N
2.0 Levant_Natufian
1.0 RUS_Devils_Gate_Cave_N

Target: father
Distance: 1.8127% / 0.01812746
61.2 Barcin_N
25.0 Steppe_EN
6.2 IRN_N
4.4 Baltic_HG
2.8 Levant_Natufian
0.4 RUS_Devils_Gate_Cave_N

TonyC
03-12-2021, 09:27 PM
Target: Anthony_C_scaled
Distance: 2.1558% / 0.02155751
62.6 Barcin_N
26.8 Steppe_EN
5.6 Baltic_HG
4.0 IRN_N
1.0 CHG

Chatzianastasoglou
03-12-2021, 10:05 PM
Target: Christos_mother_scaled
Distance: 2.7445% / 0.02744533
64.0 Barcin_N
34.0 Steppe_EN
2.0 WHG

Target: Christos_father_scaled
Distance: 2.6918% / 0.02691815
60.8 Barcin_N
36.4 Steppe_EN
1.4 Levant_Natufian
0.8 CHG
0.6 WHG

Target: ChristosA_scaled
Distance: 2.4692% / 0.02469180
65.0 Barcin_N
33.6 Steppe_EN
1.4 WHG

TonyC
03-12-2021, 11:49 PM
Target: Christos_mother_scaled
Distance: 2.7445% / 0.02744533
64.0 Barcin_N
34.0 Steppe_EN
2.0 WHG

Target: Christos_father_scaled
Distance: 2.6918% / 0.02691815
60.8 Barcin_N
36.4 Steppe_EN
1.4 Levant_Natufian
0.8 CHG
0.6 WHG

Target: ChristosA_scaled
Distance: 2.4692% / 0.02469180
65.0 Barcin_N
33.6 Steppe_EN
1.4 WHG
Did you add the Baltic HG component?

TonyC
03-12-2021, 11:51 PM
Target: Anthony_C_scaled
Distance: 2.1558% / 0.02155751
62.6 Barcin_N
26.8 Steppe_EN
5.6 Baltic_HG
4.0 IRN_N
1.0 CHG

Sorcelow the Baltic HG component tightened it a bit.

Sorcelow
03-13-2021, 12:01 AM
Sorcelow the Baltic HG component tightened it a bit.

Yes, because it mimics Narva_HG, but also comtains balto-slavic drift. You will notice that this component peaks in Latvians at around 32%, and then declines the further south you go.

Chatzianastasoglou
03-13-2021, 12:19 AM
Did you add the Baltic HG component?
With Baltic

Target: ChristosA_scaled
Distance: 2.4366% / 0.02436562
64.8 Barcin_N
32.8 Steppe_EN
2.4 Baltic_LVA_HG

Target: Christos_father_scaled
Distance: 2.6749% / 0.02674916
60.6 Barcin_N
34.2 Steppe_EN
2.0 CHG
1.6 Baltic_LVA_HG
1.4 Levant_Natufian
0.2 RUS_Devils_Gate_Cave_N

Target: Christos_mother_scaled
Distance: 2.6870% / 0.02687022
63.8 Barcin_N
32.8 Steppe_EN
3.4 Baltic_LVA_HG

dosas
03-13-2021, 02:37 PM
This is a Hunter-Gatherer run, made to show affinities (before you comment on the distances, this is a 7-10k year old component comparison, so all things considered, they're pretty good, imo):



SampleFitPinarbasi HGSamara HGGEO CHGGanj Dareh NLevant NatufianBaltic LVA HGGreek Thessaly ► Average4.39601612.59.520
Greek Peloponnese ► Average4.0359.51410.51240
Greek Central Macedonia ► Average4.0759.51810.51020
Rumelia East ► Average4.158.5171310.50.50.5
Greek Laconia ► Average4.0758.51211.51170
Greek Macedonia ► Average4.695816.51210.521
Greek Izmir ► Average3.6581113.5134.50
Greek Kos ► Average3.2955.5315.51880
Greek Dodecanese ► Average3.61542.514.519.59.50
Greek Crete ► Average3.75537151690
dosas1312 ► dosas 23ame v34.19527.522.514.53.50
Greek Central Anatolia ► Average3.9650.5021.520.57.50
Cypriot ► Average3.6449015.520.5150
Greek Cappadocia ► Average4.5447021.521.5100
Greek Trabzon ► Average4.3739035.5169.50


Natufian is still not preferred in relation to CHG/Iran_N.

All Greek pops are predominately Anatolian HG/Farmer mostly, with the exception of Pontics who are half and half (*ish) CHGs.

dosas
03-13-2021, 04:28 PM
Now compare the "Greek Islanders" and the Pontics, the favorite obsession of the 23ame sub-reddit troll brigade (the islanders being "Hellenized Levantines" and the Pontics overlapping with Iraqis), next to the real Levantines.



SampleFitGEO CHGPinarbasi HGLevant NatufianGanj Dareh NYorubaSamara HGGeorgian Imer ► Average3.8556297.57.500
Greek Trabzon ► Average4.3735.5399.51600
Greek Central Anatolia ► Average3.9621.550.57.520.500
Greek Cappadocia ► Average4.5421.5471021.500
Greek Kos ► Average3.2915.555.581803
Greek Crete ► Average3.75155391607
Greek Dodecanese ► Average3.6114.5549.519.502.5
Lebanese Muslim ► Average31336242700
Iraqi ► Average2.8512302334.500.5
Lebanese Christian ► Average3.791039.52426.500
Palestinian ► Average2.6182834.5272.50


Pontics are a visible intermediate (as they should be) between Crete and the "pure" Caucasians (in this case, the Georgian Imer average), the Greeks islands being predominately Anatolian HG/Farmers, as I wrote above.

Andrewid
03-13-2021, 06:06 PM
Now compare the "Greek Islanders" and the Pontics, the favorite obsession of the 23ame sub-reddit troll brigade (the islanders being "Hellenized Levantines" and the Pontics overlapping with Iraqis), next to the real Levantines.



SampleFitGEO CHGPinarbasi HGLevant NatufianGanj Dareh NYorubaSamara HGGeorgian Imer ► Average3.8556297.57.500
Greek Trabzon ► Average4.3735.5399.51600
Greek Central Anatolia ► Average3.9621.550.57.520.500
Greek Cappadocia ► Average4.5421.5471021.500
Greek Kos ► Average3.2915.555.581803
Greek Crete ► Average3.75155391607
Greek Dodecanese ► Average3.6114.5549.519.502.5
Lebanese Muslim ► Average31336242700
Iraqi ► Average2.8512302334.500.5
Lebanese Christian ► Average3.791039.52426.500
Palestinian ► Average2.6182834.5272.50


Pontics are a visible intermediate (as they should be) between Crete and the "pure" Caucasians (in this case, the Georgian Imer average), the Greeks islands being predominately Anatolian HG/Farmers, as I wrote above.

Very interesting model. Thanks!

Would I be right in saying that the Cypriot average comes out as fairly close to Dodecanesians, but more Levantine coast shifted?

Would you be able to add individual members to the calculation? Just in case, these are my coordinates:):

Andrewid_scaled,0.100164,0.142174,-0.036581,-0.065246,-0.003693,-0.024821,0.005405,-0.003,0.000409,0.017495,0.004384,0.004496,-0.003271,0.007707,-0.010043,-0.000928,0.001695,0,0.00176,-0.002251,0.001996,0.001484,0.001232,0.005784,0

dosas
03-13-2021, 06:23 PM
Very interesting model. Thanks!





SampleFitGEO CHGPinarbasi HGGanj Dareh NLevant NatufianYorubaSamara HGGeorgian Imer ► Average3.8556297.57.500
Greek Trabzon ► Average4.3735.539169.500
Greek Central Anatolia ► Average3.9621.550.520.57.500
Greek Cappadocia ► Average4.5421.54721.51000
dosas1312 ► Andrew3.7516.5492014.500
Cypriot ► Average3.6415.54920.51500
Greek Kos ► Average3.291555.518.5803
Greek Crete ► Average3.75155316907
Greek Dodecanese ► Average3.6114.55419.59.502.5
Lebanese Muslim ► Average31336272400
Iraqi ► Average2.85123034.52300.5
Lebanese Christian ► Average3.791039.526.52400
Palestinian ► Average2.618282734.52.50

J Man
03-13-2021, 09:49 PM
Any folks here know any males from Mani that might be interested in Y-DNA testing?

Greekscholar
03-13-2021, 10:09 PM
SampleFitGEO CHGPinarbasi HGGanj Dareh NLevant NatufianYorubaSamara HGGeorgian Imer ► Average3.8556297.57.500
Greek Trabzon ► Average4.3735.539169.500
Greek Central Anatolia ► Average3.9621.550.520.57.500
Greek Cappadocia ► Average4.5421.54721.51000
dosas1312 ► Andrew3.7516.5492014.500
Cypriot ► Average3.6415.54920.51500
Greek Kos ► Average3.291555.518.5803
Greek Crete ► Average3.75155316907
Greek Dodecanese ► Average3.6114.55419.59.502.5
Lebanese Muslim ► Average31336272400
Iraqi ► Average2.85123034.52300.5
Lebanese Christian ► Average3.791039.526.52400
Palestinian ► Average2.618282734.52.50

These are very interesting models. Going back to the HG sample does indeed boost the Iran N. and CHG components while Natufian stays stable compared to Barcin models. Do you have any guesses as to why? Running the Barcin sample with these same components does show a bit of Anatolian/Levant admixture, but not enough to account for the difference based on this result.

Target: Anatolia_Barcin_N
Distance: 4.7925% / 0.04792538
93.2 TUR_Pinarbasi_HG
3.8 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
3.0 Levant_Natufian



the web based Vahaduo runner doesn't replicate your results exactly. Would you mind adding mine?

GS_family(Fourni/Ikaria/Samos):GS(Fourni/Ikaria/Samos),0.111547,0.150298,-0.00528,-0.047804,0.015695,-0.013945,0.00376,0.001846,-0.000409,0.016219,0.002761,-0.002548,0.005054,0.002477,-0.020901,-0.005436,0.009518,-0.000507,-0.000377,-0.001376,-0.001747,0.000371,-0.000123,0.006868,0.002874

TonyC
03-14-2021, 12:34 AM
Any folks here know any males from Mani that might be interested in Y-DNA testing?

I used to know a few Maniotes several years back but not any more. Sorry!

dosas
03-14-2021, 06:43 AM
These are very interesting models. Going back to the HG sample does indeed boost the Iran N. and CHG components while Natufian stays stable compared to Barcin models. Do you have any guesses as to why? Running the Barcin sample with these same components does show a bit of Anatolian/Levant admixture, but not enough to account for the difference based on this result.



I am not sure I understand the question. Afaik, and correct me if I am wrong, Pinarbasi HG is the ancestral pop. to EEF and is Basal+WHG, whereas the Levant Natufian sample is Basal+Taforalt.

Here's your data, sorted by Levant Natufian (high to low).



SampleFitLevant NatufianSamara HGYorubaPinarbasi HGGEO CHGGanj Dareh NPalestinian ► Average2.6134.502.528827
Lebanese Muslim ► Average32400361327
Lebanese Christian ► Average3.79240039.51026.5
Iraqi ► Average2.85230.50301234.5
Cypriot ► Average3.6415004915.520.5
dosas1312 ► Andrew3.7514.5004916.520
Greek Cappadocia ► Average4.5410004721.521.5
dosas1312 ► gs4.349.57.5056.515.511
Greek Trabzon ► Average4.379.5003935.516
Greek Dodecanese ► Average3.619.52.505414.519.5
Greek Crete ► Average3.75970531516
Greek Kos ► Average3.2983055.515.518
Greek Central Anatolia ► Average3.967.50050.521.520.5
Georgian Imer ► Average3.857.50029567.5

Chart:


https://i.ibb.co/fYNLLzj/Screenshot-2021-03-14-Genoplot-Genetics-Ancestry.png

This is sorted with CHG top to bottom:



SampleFitGEO CHGGanj Dareh NLevant NatufianSamara HGYorubaPinarbasi HGGeorgian Imer ► Average3.85567.57.50029
Greek Trabzon ► Average4.3735.5169.50039
Greek Central Anatolia ► Average3.9621.520.57.50050.5
Greek Cappadocia ► Average4.5421.521.5100047
dosas1312 ► Andrew3.7516.52014.50049
dosas1312 ► gs4.3415.5119.57.5056.5
Greek Kos ► Average3.2915.51883055.5
Cypriot ► Average3.6415.520.5150049
Greek Crete ► Average3.75151697053
Greek Dodecanese ► Average3.6114.519.59.52.5054
Lebanese Muslim ► Average31327240036
Iraqi ► Average2.851234.5230.5030
Lebanese Christian ► Average3.791026.5240039.5
Palestinian ► Average2.6182734.502.528

Chart:


https://i.ibb.co/nfmybpX/Screenshot-2021-03-14-Genoplot-Genetics-Ancestry-1.png


And this with Pinarbasi HG (top to bottom):



SampleFitPinarbasi HGGEO CHGGanj Dareh NLevant NatufianSamara HGYorubadosas1312 ► gs4.3456.515.5119.57.50
Greek Kos ► Average3.2955.515.518830
Greek Dodecanese ► Average3.615414.519.59.52.50
Greek Crete ► Average3.75531516970
Greek Central Anatolia ► Average3.9650.521.520.57.500
dosas1312 ► Andrew3.754916.52014.500
Cypriot ► Average3.644915.520.51500
Greek Cappadocia ► Average4.544721.521.51000
Lebanese Christian ► Average3.7939.51026.52400
Greek Trabzon ► Average4.373935.5169.500
Lebanese Muslim ► Average33613272400
Iraqi ► Average2.85301234.5230.50
Georgian Imer ► Average3.8529567.57.500
Palestinian ► Average2.612882734.502.5

And the chart:

https://i.ibb.co/ZKNGt65/Screenshot-2021-03-14-Genoplot-Genetics-Ancestry-2.png


My point being that the Eastern Greek affinities lie towards the Caucasus/Iranian Plateau, as demonstrated, and not towards the Levant. There is such admixture, of course, and how could it be otherwise, since they are neighbouring populations since antiquity, but it is a minor component (9%ish at best) and certainly not capable of supporting the narrative that is pushed by the 23ame sub-reddit, and other posters in the past, even on this board, that the Dodecanese or Cretans are merely stray Lebanese/Palestinians who got "Hellenised" or that Pontics are kin to Iraqis, like the dumb categorisation on the official 23ame oracle.

Also, you cannot reproduce the exact numbers on the vahaduo github because of its limited computational capacities compared to Genoplot, which I am using.

bovefex
03-14-2021, 09:32 AM
Also, you cannot reproduce the exact numbers on the vahaduo github because of its limited computational capacities compared to Genoplot, which I am using.

Is Genoplot really all that much better than Vahaduo?

dosas
03-14-2021, 10:02 AM
Is Genoplot really all that much better than Vahaduo?


For me, it is, I like the stuff I can do with it and the easiness I can do it with. Your mileage may vary.

lacreme
03-14-2021, 10:08 AM
My friend using this model, as always his closest population is the Smyrniot average
sample: Chris
distance: 4.2767
Pinarbasi_HG: 59
GEO_CHG: 14.5
Ganj_Dareh_N: 11.5
Samara_HG: 10.5
Levant_Natufian: 4.5



Judging by the location ,I think these guys are a good candidate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gothograecia
That's also an interesting population.
In the end his placement on a more specific branch will probably help. Will update again when he gets his matches.

------

What about his MtDna subclade which is the H13a2b3 ? Any info about the percentages of it or for H13a in the greek populations ?
The only info that I could find about it was that it reaches the highest concetrations in a couple of Caucasus populations and on a paper it was used (among other clades ) as a marker of east med gene flow to the Iberian peninsula I think ?

dosas
03-14-2021, 10:55 AM
Another 4-way model with Pinarbasi_HG replacing Barcin_N, so it can let Natufian shine, if it can:



https://i.ibb.co/S5qHd38/Screenshot-2021-03-14-Vahaduo-Admixture-JS-21-01.png


list:


TUR_Pinarbasi_HG,0.113823,0.166547,0.029793,-0.082688,0.070782,-0.04016,-0.005875,0.001846,0.04745,0.079637,0.006008,0.0091 42,-0.021407,-0.009358,-0.042073,-0.003713,0.0442,-0.002787,0.008045,-0.001251,-0.013851,0.003339,-0.003451,-0.009278,-0.005628
Steppe_EN:VJ1001,0.112685,0.081242,0.003017,0.0978 69,-0.059396,0.046017,0.00564,-0.010846,-0.07956,-0.085469,0.004547,0.003147,0.000446,-0.017203,0.038002,0.012463,-0.014212,-0.003294,-0.000628,0.005378,0.008235,-0.001113,0.00912,-0.007832,-0.00958
Steppe_EN:PG2001,0.112685,0.079211,0.008674,0.1052 99,-0.055087,0.044344,0.00376,-0.007154,-0.077719,-0.076904,0.00682,-0.001049,-0.006095,-0.025735,0.030809,0.000796,-0.009648,-0.004941,-0.004022,0.006253,-0.011105,0.000989,0.005916,0.003735,-0.008502
Steppe_EN:PG2004,0.1161,0.072103,0.023759,0.126294 ,-0.053548,0.054941,-0.00235,-0.009461,-0.069334,-0.090754,0.00747,0.004346,-0.001041,-0.024359,0.031894,0.004641,-0.015125,-0.001774,-0.000377,0.007253,-0.002121,0.004946,0.01368,0.008555,0.002754
CHG/IRN_N:I1290,0.036423,0.069056,-0.151603,-0.011951,-0.121253,0.011992,0.017626,-0.005307,-0.084059,-0.051026,0.003085,-0.005695,0.009217,-0.014588,0.026058,0.068814,-0.005737,0.008615,0.014581,-0.032391,0.01435,-0.02201,-0.016885,-0.041452,0.02874
CHG/IRN_N:I1945,0.048944,0.069056,-0.15198,-0.000646,-0.128332,0.031236,0.014806,0.002538,-0.086105,-0.058498,-0.007795,0.002997,-0.001338,-0.000413,0.029858,0.054494,-0.015516,0.003927,0.016466,-0.027763,0.002121,-0.023618,-0.008258,-0.034342,0.020118
CHG/IRN_N:I1947,0.042115,0.062963,-0.158768,0.014858,-0.118176,0.020638,0.012691,-0.005077,-0.078537,-0.061414,-0.00065,-0.003297,0.001041,-0.012937,0.034473,0.063908,-0.004955,0.014823,0.006913,-0.035017,0.010357,-0.029182,-0.012325,-0.035788,0.022752
CHG/IRN_N:I1949,0.034147,0.058901,-0.162162,0.017119,-0.119407,0.029284,0.018331,0.001385,-0.077515,-0.047381,-0.005359,0.003297,0.005352,-0.002477,0.03963,0.049721,0.012647,0.000633,0.0184 78,-0.03064,0.012478,-0.039322,-0.012202,-0.048682,0.013651
CHG/IRN_N:I1954,0.053497,0.072103,-0.150848,0.004199,-0.126177,0.024542,0.022091,0.000462,-0.086514,-0.05376,-0.00341,-0.005395,0.008176,-0.000963,0.02823,0.043755,-0.01356,0.006334,0.011816,-0.04127,0.003494,-0.030048,-0.005669,-0.036391,0.025866
RUS_Devils_Gate_Cave_N:NEO236,0.01935,-0.448864,0.067127,-0.049742,-0.041238,-0.046017,0.00846,0.003,0.003681,0.024602,-0.054563,-0.001798,-0.001933,0.012799,-0.010858,-0.005569,0.002477,0.000127,0.017849,0.012631,0.014 599,-0.029553,-0.019843,-0.000843,-0.010538
RUS_Devils_Gate_Cave_N:NEO238,0.025041,-0.446833,0.069013,-0.050065,-0.037545,-0.036256,0.002115,0.008307,0.007772,0.024237,-0.04417,-0.002997,-0.002081,0.003578,-0.009772,-0.01074,0.004563,0.007095,0.015838,0.005503,0.0086 1,-0.020155,-0.01442,-0.001205,-0.017364
RUS_Devils_Gate_Cave_N:NEO239,0.006829,-0.439724,0.07467,-0.051357,-0.03693,-0.036256,-0.007755,0.010384,0.012271,0.014943,-0.040922,-0.008992,-0.013082,0.008808,-0.005429,-0.01896,0.005998,0.01875,0.016341,0.012131,0.00087 3,-0.035365,-0.01405,-0.008314,-0.017962
RUS_Devils_Gate_Cave_N:NEO240,0.013659,-0.44074,0.078064,-0.053295,-0.033852,-0.039602,0.01081,0.01223,0.00225,0.01385,-0.054725,-0.005545,0.004757,0.009496,-0.012351,-0.018297,-0.016168,0.009628,0.019735,0.00988,0.01123,-0.025843,-0.021568,0.000602,-0.012454
Levant_Natufian:I0861,0.01935,0.135065,-0.039221,-0.135984,0.026774,-0.076137,-0.019036,-0.024691,0.100626,-0.008018,0.02858,-0.019633,0.067343,0.001651,0.022801,0.02612,-0.0103,0.006714,-0.018101,0.041395,-0.004118,-0.003215,-0.014297,-0.011206,0.011975
WHG,0.1246365,0.116278,0.184789,0.189279,0.1546445 ,0.0464355,0.0131605,0.0372675,0.0890705,0.017768,-0.0153455,-0.015811,0.0159065,-0.0030275,0.053338,0.0582065,0.00502,0.016343,-0.0093015,0.055589,0.0944585,0.0111905,-0.049607,-0.160866,0.0170045
CHG/IRN_N:KK1,0.091058,0.102568,-0.083344,-0.00323,-0.08617,0.020638,0.024911,-0.001846,-0.128236,-0.074717,-0.006333,0.023979,-0.054856,0.004404,0.026601,-0.03275,0.02386,-0.013429,-0.022249,0.034767,0.033815,-0.007048,0.006532,-0.025787,-0.002036




Again, Dodecanese barely breaking 9%. I think I've exhausted the subject. All comments welcome.

bovefex
03-14-2021, 11:31 AM
Another 4-way model with Pinarbasi_HG replacing Barcin_N, so it can let Natufian shine, if it can:



https://i.ibb.co/S5qHd38/Screenshot-2021-03-14-Vahaduo-Admixture-JS-21-01.png


list:


TUR_Pinarbasi_HG,0.113823,0.166547,0.029793,-0.082688,0.070782,-0.04016,-0.005875,0.001846,0.04745,0.079637,0.006008,0.0091 42,-0.021407,-0.009358,-0.042073,-0.003713,0.0442,-0.002787,0.008045,-0.001251,-0.013851,0.003339,-0.003451,-0.009278,-0.005628
Steppe_EN:VJ1001,0.112685,0.081242,0.003017,0.0978 69,-0.059396,0.046017,0.00564,-0.010846,-0.07956,-0.085469,0.004547,0.003147,0.000446,-0.017203,0.038002,0.012463,-0.014212,-0.003294,-0.000628,0.005378,0.008235,-0.001113,0.00912,-0.007832,-0.00958
Steppe_EN:PG2001,0.112685,0.079211,0.008674,0.1052 99,-0.055087,0.044344,0.00376,-0.007154,-0.077719,-0.076904,0.00682,-0.001049,-0.006095,-0.025735,0.030809,0.000796,-0.009648,-0.004941,-0.004022,0.006253,-0.011105,0.000989,0.005916,0.003735,-0.008502
Steppe_EN:PG2004,0.1161,0.072103,0.023759,0.126294 ,-0.053548,0.054941,-0.00235,-0.009461,-0.069334,-0.090754,0.00747,0.004346,-0.001041,-0.024359,0.031894,0.004641,-0.015125,-0.001774,-0.000377,0.007253,-0.002121,0.004946,0.01368,0.008555,0.002754
CHG/IRN_N:I1290,0.036423,0.069056,-0.151603,-0.011951,-0.121253,0.011992,0.017626,-0.005307,-0.084059,-0.051026,0.003085,-0.005695,0.009217,-0.014588,0.026058,0.068814,-0.005737,0.008615,0.014581,-0.032391,0.01435,-0.02201,-0.016885,-0.041452,0.02874
CHG/IRN_N:I1945,0.048944,0.069056,-0.15198,-0.000646,-0.128332,0.031236,0.014806,0.002538,-0.086105,-0.058498,-0.007795,0.002997,-0.001338,-0.000413,0.029858,0.054494,-0.015516,0.003927,0.016466,-0.027763,0.002121,-0.023618,-0.008258,-0.034342,0.020118
CHG/IRN_N:I1947,0.042115,0.062963,-0.158768,0.014858,-0.118176,0.020638,0.012691,-0.005077,-0.078537,-0.061414,-0.00065,-0.003297,0.001041,-0.012937,0.034473,0.063908,-0.004955,0.014823,0.006913,-0.035017,0.010357,-0.029182,-0.012325,-0.035788,0.022752
CHG/IRN_N:I1949,0.034147,0.058901,-0.162162,0.017119,-0.119407,0.029284,0.018331,0.001385,-0.077515,-0.047381,-0.005359,0.003297,0.005352,-0.002477,0.03963,0.049721,0.012647,0.000633,0.0184 78,-0.03064,0.012478,-0.039322,-0.012202,-0.048682,0.013651
CHG/IRN_N:I1954,0.053497,0.072103,-0.150848,0.004199,-0.126177,0.024542,0.022091,0.000462,-0.086514,-0.05376,-0.00341,-0.005395,0.008176,-0.000963,0.02823,0.043755,-0.01356,0.006334,0.011816,-0.04127,0.003494,-0.030048,-0.005669,-0.036391,0.025866
RUS_Devils_Gate_Cave_N:NEO236,0.01935,-0.448864,0.067127,-0.049742,-0.041238,-0.046017,0.00846,0.003,0.003681,0.024602,-0.054563,-0.001798,-0.001933,0.012799,-0.010858,-0.005569,0.002477,0.000127,0.017849,0.012631,0.014 599,-0.029553,-0.019843,-0.000843,-0.010538
RUS_Devils_Gate_Cave_N:NEO238,0.025041,-0.446833,0.069013,-0.050065,-0.037545,-0.036256,0.002115,0.008307,0.007772,0.024237,-0.04417,-0.002997,-0.002081,0.003578,-0.009772,-0.01074,0.004563,0.007095,0.015838,0.005503,0.0086 1,-0.020155,-0.01442,-0.001205,-0.017364
RUS_Devils_Gate_Cave_N:NEO239,0.006829,-0.439724,0.07467,-0.051357,-0.03693,-0.036256,-0.007755,0.010384,0.012271,0.014943,-0.040922,-0.008992,-0.013082,0.008808,-0.005429,-0.01896,0.005998,0.01875,0.016341,0.012131,0.00087 3,-0.035365,-0.01405,-0.008314,-0.017962
RUS_Devils_Gate_Cave_N:NEO240,0.013659,-0.44074,0.078064,-0.053295,-0.033852,-0.039602,0.01081,0.01223,0.00225,0.01385,-0.054725,-0.005545,0.004757,0.009496,-0.012351,-0.018297,-0.016168,0.009628,0.019735,0.00988,0.01123,-0.025843,-0.021568,0.000602,-0.012454
Levant_Natufian:I0861,0.01935,0.135065,-0.039221,-0.135984,0.026774,-0.076137,-0.019036,-0.024691,0.100626,-0.008018,0.02858,-0.019633,0.067343,0.001651,0.022801,0.02612,-0.0103,0.006714,-0.018101,0.041395,-0.004118,-0.003215,-0.014297,-0.011206,0.011975
WHG,0.1246365,0.116278,0.184789,0.189279,0.1546445 ,0.0464355,0.0131605,0.0372675,0.0890705,0.017768,-0.0153455,-0.015811,0.0159065,-0.0030275,0.053338,0.0582065,0.00502,0.016343,-0.0093015,0.055589,0.0944585,0.0111905,-0.049607,-0.160866,0.0170045
CHG/IRN_N:KK1,0.091058,0.102568,-0.083344,-0.00323,-0.08617,0.020638,0.024911,-0.001846,-0.128236,-0.074717,-0.006333,0.023979,-0.054856,0.004404,0.026601,-0.03275,0.02386,-0.013429,-0.022249,0.034767,0.033815,-0.007048,0.006532,-0.025787,-0.002036




Again, Dodecanese barely breaking 9%. I think I've exhausted the subject. All comments welcome.

Why is the Steppe for some groups so low?

dosas
03-14-2021, 11:39 AM
Why is the Steppe for some groups so low?


It's probably due to lack of EHG that the Progress samples require. Don't get hung up on it, the last list is focused on making sure nothing deflates the Natufian.

bovefex
03-14-2021, 11:46 AM
It's probably due to lack of EHG that the Progress samples require. Don't get hung up on it, the last list is focused on making sure nothing deflates the Natufian.

Is there a model that also shows much EHG each group scores?

dosas
03-14-2021, 11:58 AM
Is there a model that also shows much EHG each group scores?


The Genoplot stuff have Samara_HG in the list, as a proxy.

Greekscholar
03-14-2021, 05:49 PM
snip

Thank you. Vahaduo produced similar numbers, but I thought it was better to compare apples to apples. I think your models proves the point about Natufian admixture. That amount is stable even if change the other references are changed and its presence in various Anatolian Greek AND Aegean Island/Cypriot populations points to some of those more Levant heavy BA Anatolian sources and/or Tepecik-like EEFs as the common source, IMO

Sorry to be vague about my question. To be more direct, since this model predates the formation of the Yamyana-like profile, is the model going to have to combine CHG+EHG to account for the much later Steppe admixture event? The GEO-CHG source specifically is the one that seems to be going up. Obviously moving these pieces around doesn't change the Natufian (the point of your model as I understand it) but I am interested because it is rare for any models to choose that much Iran_N or CHG for me, so I am interested if this is what the model is doing.

From Vahaduo.....

Target: GS_family(Fourni/Ikaria/Samos):GS(Fourni/Ikaria/Samos)
Distance: 4.7082% / 0.04708186
57.8 TUR_Pinarbasi_HG
17.6 GEO_CHG
9.0 Levant_Natufian
8.0 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
7.6 RUS_Samara_HG

vs

Target: GS_family(Fourni/Ikaria/Samos):GS(Fourni/Ikaria/Samos)
Distance: 4.2858% / 0.04285821
55.4 TUR_Pinarbasi_HG
15.4 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
12.4 GEO_CHG
10.0 Levant_Natufian
6.8 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N

dosas
03-14-2021, 06:04 PM
I shouldn't have made the last list with the Steppe_EN, the lack of EHG in some groups is throwing some spanners in the works. The Yamnaya_RUS_Samara is eating up your CHG/Iran_N above.

I don't know which group is the source for Steppe ancestry in the Greek groups, so I can't answer you what to use. It would make sense that it might have been similar to Yamnaya_Bulgaria, but there's also arguments for Corded Ware and Catacomb, so it's up to you to pick one and show us, I don't have the answers for this.

I am in the process of teaching myself how to use admixtools, I managed to install everything in R properly, but now I need to understand how to use the dataset from Reich, any input will be greatly appreciated.

dosas
03-14-2021, 06:31 PM
Look at this 4-way model with Yamnaya_BGR as the source of Steppe for the Greek groups:



SampleFitYamnaya BGRBarcin NLevant Natufiandosas1312 • CHG/Iran NGreek Central Macedonia ► Average2.4159.25362.752
Greek Macedonia ► Average2.365935.752.253
Greek Thessaly ► Average1.6956.7537.751.753.75
Greek Peloponnese ► Average2.2349.7539.555.75
Greek Izmir ► Average1.9341.7541.75511.5
dosas1312 ► gs2.9835.2544.58.7511.5
dosas1312 ► dosas 23ame v32.4234.7541222.25
Greek Crete ► Average2.013242.58.2517.25
Greek Kos ► Average1.8323.2547.57.7521.5
Greek Dodecanese ► Average2.042048.758.2523
dosas1312 ► Andrew2.311.54613.2529.25
Greek Cappadocia ► Average2.9710.547.5735
Greek Trabzon ► Average3.25346.753.2547

https://i.ibb.co/dJzQGYW/Screenshot-2021-03-14-Genoplot-Genetics-Ancestry.png




This is with Corded Ware as the source:



SampleFitCorded Ware • AverageLevant NatufianBarcin Ndosas1312 • CHG/Iran NGreek Central Macedonia ► Average2.2340.51.546.2511.75
Greek Macedonia ► Average2.38390.7546.7513.5
Greek Thessaly ► Average1.85380.54813.5
Greek Peloponnese ► Average2.0634.53.254913.25
Greek Izmir ► Average1.8294.254917.75
dosas1312 ► gs323.58.255018.25
dosas1312 ► dosas 23ame v32.6822.251.546.2530
Greek Crete ► Average2.04217.54823.5
Greek Kos ► Average1.815.7575225.25
Greek Dodecanese ► Average2.0113.7585226.25
dosas1312 ► Andrew2.317.5134831.5
Greek Central Anatolia ► Average2.5974.552.7535.75
Greek Cappadocia ► Average36.256.7549.7537.25
Greek Trabzon ► Average3.270.25348.548.25


https://i.ibb.co/mSxTpfJ/Screenshot-2021-03-14-Genoplot-Genetics-Ancestry-1.png

Greekscholar
03-14-2021, 06:45 PM
I shouldn't have made the last list with the Steppe_EN, the lack of EHG in some groups is throwing some spanners in the works. The Yamnaya_RUS_Samara is eating up your CHG/Iran_N above.

I don't know which group is the source for Steppe ancestry in the Greek groups, so I can't answer you what to use. It would make sense that it might have been similar to Yamnaya_Bulgaria, but there's also arguments for Corded Ware and Catacomb, so it's up to you to pick one and show us, I don't have the answers for this.

I am in the process of teaching myself how to use admixtools, I managed to install everything in R properly, but now I need to understand how to use the dataset from Reich, any input will be greatly appreciated.

Oh, no worries about which Steppe group to use, that is another frequently repeated discussion. I just wanted to make sure I understood why your HG calculator (in general, not just Greeks) assigned some/more GEO-CHG to West Eurasian populations than the standard Neolithic models. Your model predating Yamnaya admixture would be the answer, I just wanted to be sure.

A quick Bronze age model here I think shows your point about direct Levant admixture as well. (Greek_Trabzon was not included because they need different BA sources)

https://imgur.com/NJNBb7b.jpeg

vs

https://imgur.com/E9UlZFl.jpeg

I am as guilty as anyone as adding that Ashkelon IA2 sample with Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA in Bronze Age models, but as you can see it is not necessary if you use genetically different Anatolian populations from the same time period. Arslantepe_EBA works for Alalakh_MLBA as well.

Target: TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA
Distance: 5.2814% / 0.05281393
56.2 TUR_Pinarbasi_HG
17.8 GEO_CHG
16.2 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
9.8 Levant_Natufian

vs

Target: TUR_Alalakh_MLBA
Distance: 5.7897% / 0.05789723
41.0 TUR_Pinarbasi_HG
23.6 Levant_Natufian
22.0 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
13.4 GEO_CHG

Michalis Moriopoulos
03-14-2021, 06:51 PM
Looks quite nice in graphic form, Dosas. You might try the same two models with ancient targets of interest: Greek Neolithic average, Helladic MBA average, Minoan average, Mycenaean average, Emporiote average, Anatolia MLBA average, Cyclades EBA, the STR300 medieval Germany outlier, etc.

bovefex
03-14-2021, 07:05 PM
(Greek_Trabzon was not included because they need different BA sources)


Do you mind telling which BA sources those are? Because I have noticed RUS_Maykop_Novosvobodnaya improves fits greatly for Central Anatolian and Cappadocian Greeks, though maybe that has to do with the fact that Anatolian Greeks have no Slavic (HUN_Avar_Szolad) admixture?

Greekscholar
03-14-2021, 08:02 PM
Do you mind telling which BA sources those are? Because I have noticed RUS_Maykop_Novosvobodnaya improves fits greatly for Central Anatolian and Cappadocian Greeks, though maybe that has to do with the fact that Anatolian Greeks have no Slavic (HUN_Avar_Szolad) admixture?

We have several active threads with BA models from Pontic Greeks being discussed at great length. Search in this one and the one titled "Additional Greek samples" I think it called. The user "Panos" has posts that should take you right to those discussions if you search his posting history.

dosas
03-14-2021, 08:31 PM
Looks quite nice in graphic form, Dosas. You might try the same two models with ancient targets of interest: Greek Neolithic average, Helladic MBA average, Minoan average, Mycenaean average, Emporiote average, Anatolia MLBA average, Cyclades EBA, the STR300 medieval Germany outlier, etc.


With Corded Ware:



SampleFitCorded Ware • AverageBarcin NLevant Natufiandosas1312 • CHG/Iran NOstrogothic Crimea ACD ► KER 13.8325.7534.259.2530.75
DEU MA o ► STR 3003.642165.25013.75
Iberia Northeast Empuries2 ► Average2.1612.25700.7517
GRC Mycenaean ► Average1.391169.51.7517.75
Minoan Lassithi ► Average1.55087013
Kaman-Kalehoyuk MLBA ► Average2.40626.2531.75
GRC N ► Average1.91010000


https://i.ibb.co/Fx8f2kz/Screenshot-2021-03-14-Genoplot-Genetics-Ancestry-2.png



With Yamnaya_BGR:



SampleFitYamnaya BGR • AverageLevant NatufianBarcin Ndosas1312 • CHG/Iran NOstrogothic Crimea ACD ► KER 13.4740.251027.2522.5
DEU MA o ► STR 3003.7630.25061.58.25
Iberia Northeast Empuries2 ► Average2.0419.251.2566.513
GRC Mycenaean ► Average1.416.5266.7514.75
Minoan Lassithi ► Average1.55008713
Kaman-Kalehoyuk MLBA ► Average2.406.2561.7532
GRC N ► Average1.91001000


https://i.ibb.co/L9b5L2R/Screenshot-2021-03-14-Genoplot-Genetics-Ancestry-3.png

XXD
03-14-2021, 08:31 PM
Look at this 4-way model with Yamnaya_BGR as the source of Steppe for the Greek groups:



SampleFitYamnaya BGRBarcin NLevant Natufiandosas1312 • CHG/Iran NGreek Central Macedonia ► Average2.4159.25362.752
Greek Macedonia ► Average2.365935.752.253
Greek Thessaly ► Average1.6956.7537.751.753.75
Greek Peloponnese ► Average2.2349.7539.555.75
Greek Izmir ► Average1.9341.7541.75511.5
dosas1312 ► gs2.9835.2544.58.7511.5
dosas1312 ► dosas 23ame v32.4234.7541222.25
Greek Crete ► Average2.013242.58.2517.25
Greek Kos ► Average1.8323.2547.57.7521.5
Greek Dodecanese ► Average2.042048.758.2523
dosas1312 ► Andrew2.311.54613.2529.25
Greek Cappadocia ► Average2.9710.547.5735
Greek Trabzon ► Average3.25346.753.2547

https://i.ibb.co/dJzQGYW/Screenshot-2021-03-14-Genoplot-Genetics-Ancestry.png




This is with Corded Ware as the source:



SampleFitCorded Ware • AverageLevant NatufianBarcin Ndosas1312 • CHG/Iran NGreek Central Macedonia ► Average2.2340.51.546.2511.75
Greek Macedonia ► Average2.38390.7546.7513.5
Greek Thessaly ► Average1.85380.54813.5
Greek Peloponnese ► Average2.0634.53.254913.25
Greek Izmir ► Average1.8294.254917.75
dosas1312 ► gs323.58.255018.25
dosas1312 ► dosas 23ame v32.6822.251.546.2530
Greek Crete ► Average2.04217.54823.5
Greek Kos ► Average1.815.7575225.25
Greek Dodecanese ► Average2.0113.7585226.25
dosas1312 ► Andrew2.317.5134831.5
Greek Central Anatolia ► Average2.5974.552.7535.75
Greek Cappadocia ► Average36.256.7549.7537.25
Greek Trabzon ► Average3.270.25348.548.25


https://i.ibb.co/mSxTpfJ/Screenshot-2021-03-14-Genoplot-Genetics-Ancestry-1.png

Wow, this is with Admixtools? Also, how did you make population averages?

dosas
03-14-2021, 08:38 PM
Wow, this is with Admixtools? Also, how did you make population averages?

No, it's with Genoplot, you get all sorts of options, including making averages, which I did with CHG and Iran_N, so I don't clutter my 4-way model (I was inspired by the Calabrian Greek paper to do so).

XXD
03-14-2021, 08:55 PM
Thank you so much!

Panos
03-15-2021, 10:45 AM
Do you mind telling which BA sources those are? Because I have noticed RUS_Maykop_Novosvobodnaya improves fits greatly for Central Anatolian and Cappadocian Greeks, though maybe that has to do with the fact that Anatolian Greeks have no Slavic (HUN_Avar_Szolad) admixture?

Pontic greeks no 1 need for better fit is something Caucausian/Transcaucasian so RUS_Maykop_Novosvobodnaya is obviously going to improve the fit. Other BA samples you can elaborate with are:
RUS_North_Caucasus_MBA
RUS_Maykop_Late
Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kaps

For pontians that have quite a bit of Levantine, then TUR_Arslantepe_EBA and/or TUR_Alalakh_MLBA are preferred from the Anatolia region. The thing is that these will eat a lot from Levantine but also from the middle Anatolia (Kaman for example) which means that even east med or empuries2 will be eaten a lot.

dosas
03-15-2021, 08:52 PM
Would you be able to add individual members to the calculation? Just in case, these are my coordinates:):



Trying to fight insomnia and ran your stuff through the G25Studio with optimal fit and Chebyshev algorithm (rather than Euclidean):




Oracle Calculator by www.dnagenics.com
v1.9 04/09/2020

Finished reading population data. 588 populations found.
25 components mode.

B distance calculation method.

--------------------------------


Mixed Mode:
1 81.25% Cypriot + 18.75% Greek_Cappadocia @ 0.511
2 68.75% Cypriot + 31.25% Greek_Central_Anatolia @ 0.529
3 81.25% Cypriot + 18.75% Greek_Crete @ 0.548
4 93.75% Cypriot + 6.25% Greek_Macedonia @ 0.551
5 93.75% Cypriot + 6.25% Greek_Trabzon @ 0.552
6 93.75% Cypriot + 6.25% Rumelia_East @ 0.555
7 93.75% Cypriot + 6.25% Gagauz @ 0.557
8 93.75% Cypriot + 6.25% Greek_Central_Macedonia @ 0.557
9 93.75% Cypriot + 6.25% Georgian_Imer @ 0.558
10 93.75% Cypriot + 6.25% Montenegrin @ 0.562

Least-squares method.

Using 1 populations approximation
1 100% Cypriot @ 0.588
2 100% Romaniote_Jew @ 1.125
3 100% Greek_Dodecanese @ 1.214
4 100% Druze @ 1.229
5 100% Syrian_Jew @ 1.309
6 100% Lebanese_Christian @ 1.366
7 100% Greek_Kos @ 1.454
8 100% Sephardic_Jew @ 1.493
9 100% Lebanese_Druze @ 1.605
10 100% Italian_Jew @ 1.791

Using 2 populations approximation
1 50% Cypriot + 50% Cypriot @ 0.588
2 50% Greek_Kos + 50% Lebanese_Druze @ 0.621
3 50% Sephardic_Jew + 50% Greek_Cappadocia @ 0.647
4 50% Italian_Jew + 50% Greek_Cappadocia @ 0.656
5 50% Cypriot + 50% Greek_Kos @ 0.663
6 50% Romaniote_Jew + 50% Greek_Central_Anatolia @ 0.676
7 50% Romaniote_Jew + 50% Greek_Cappadocia @ 0.697
8 50% Greek_Dodecanese + 50% Lebanese_Druze @ 0.698
9 50% Cypriot + 50% Greek_Dodecanese @ 0.708
10 50% Italian_Campania + 50% Iraqi_Jew @ 0.709

Using 3 populations approximation
1 33% Cypriot + 33% Cypriot + 33% Greek_Central_Anatolia @ 0.542
2 33% Cypriot + 33% Romaniote_Jew + 33% Greek_Central_Anatolia @ 0.576
3 33% Cypriot + 33% Cypriot + 33% Cypriot @ 0.588
4 33% Cypriot + 33% Romaniote_Jew + 33% Greek_Cappadocia @ 0.590
5 33% Romaniote_Jew + 33% Greek_Dodecanese + 33% Greek_Cappadocia @ 0.604
6 33% Cypriot + 33% Cypriot + 33% Greek_Cappadocia @ 0.607
7 33% Cypriot + 33% Cypriot + 33% Greek_Kos @ 0.617
8 33% Greek_Cappadocia + 33% Greek_Cappadocia + 33% Tunisian_Jew @ 0.618
9 33% Lebanese_Druze + 33% Greek_Cappadocia + 33% Ashkenazi_Germany @ 0.620
10 33% Lebanese_Christian + 33% Sephardic_Jew + 33% Greek_Cappadocia @ 0.628

Using 4 populations approximation
1 25% Cypriot + 25% Cypriot + 25% Cypriot + 25% Greek_Central_Anatolia @ 0.509
2 25% Cypriot + 25% Cypriot + 25% Cypriot + 25% Greek_Crete @ 0.535
3 25% Cypriot + 25% Cypriot + 25% Romaniote_Jew + 25% Greek_Cappadocia @ 0.537
4 25% Cypriot + 25% Cypriot + 25% Cypriot + 25% Greek_Cappadocia @ 0.538
5 25% Cypriot + 25% Cypriot + 25% Greek_Dodecanese + 25% Greek_Cappadocia @ 0.544
6 25% Cypriot + 25% Cypriot + 25% Romaniote_Jew + 25% Greek_Central_Anatolia @ 0.559
7 25% Cypriot + 25% Cypriot + 25% Greek_Dodecanese + 25% Greek_Central_Anatolia @ 0.569
8 25% Italian_Calabria + 25% Italian_Calabria + 25% Samaritan + 25% Greek_Trabzon @ 0.577
9 25% Cypriot + 25% Cypriot + 25% Romaniote_Jew + 25% Turkish_Trabzon @ 0.582
10 25% Cypriot + 25% Cypriot + 25% Cypriot + 25% Cypriot @ 0.588


https://i.ibb.co/0CGFfc2/andrew.png







the web based Vahaduo runner doesn't replicate your results exactly. Would you mind adding mine?



Your stuff, as above:




Oracle Calculator by www.dnagenics.com
v1.9 04/09/2020

Finished reading population data. 588 populations found.
25 components mode.

B distance calculation method.

--------------------------------


Mixed Mode:
1 81.25% Greek_Peloponnese + 18.75% Samaritan @ 0.776
2 68.75% Greek_Peloponnese + 31.25% Lebanese_Druze @ 0.788
3 68.75% Greek_Laconia + 31.25% Italian_Calabria @ 0.791
4 68.75% Albanian + 31.25% Samaritan @ 0.798
5 68.75% Greek_Crete + 31.25% Greek_Peloponnese @ 0.802
6 56.25% Greek_Kos + 43.75% Greek_Peloponnese @ 0.802
7 68.75% Greek_Peloponnese + 31.25% Karaite_Egypt @ 0.804
8 81.25% Greek_Laconia + 18.75% Turkish_Trabzon @ 0.804
9 56.25% Greek_Crete + 43.75% Greek_Laconia @ 0.805
10 56.25% Albanian + 43.75% Cypriot @ 0.814

Least-squares method.

Using 1 populations approximation
1 100% Greek_Crete @ 0.935
2 100% Greek_Laconia @ 1.082
3 100% Italian_Calabria @ 1.127
4 100% Italian_Basilicata @ 1.216
5 100% Italian_Apulia @ 1.279
6 100% Greek_Izmir @ 1.328
7 100% Italian_Lazio @ 1.405
8 100% Italian_Campania @ 1.426
9 100% Italian_Molise @ 1.437
10 100% Italian_Abruzzo @ 1.475

Using 2 populations approximation
1 50% Albanian + 50% Cypriot @ 0.733
2 50% Romaniote_Jew + 50% Albanian @ 0.784
3 50% Greek_Kos + 50% Greek_Peloponnese @ 0.785
4 50% Greek_Crete + 50% Greek_Laconia @ 0.786
5 50% Greek_Laconia + 50% Greek_Dodecanese @ 0.797
6 50% Greek_Dodecanese + 50% Greek_Peloponnese @ 0.813
7 50% Greek_Central_Macedonia + 50% Cypriot @ 0.852
8 50% Greek_Crete + 50% Greek_Izmir @ 0.864
9 50% Greek_Laconia + 50% Italian_Calabria @ 0.882
10 50% Romaniote_Jew + 50% Greek_Central_Macedonia @ 0.901

Using 3 populations approximation
1 33% Greek_Central_Macedonia + 33% Albanian + 33% Samaritan @ 0.729
2 33% Greek_Peloponnese + 33% Greek_Peloponnese + 33% Cypriot @ 0.749
3 33% Albanian + 33% Rumelia_East + 33% Samaritan @ 0.771
4 33% Greek_Central_Macedonia + 33% Greek_Central_Macedonia + 33% Samaritan @ 0.775
5 33% Albanian + 33% Albanian + 33% Samaritan @ 0.785
6 33% Greek_Laconia + 33% Greek_Laconia + 33% Greek_Cappadocia @ 0.798
7 33% Greek_Laconia + 33% Greek_Laconia + 33% Italian_Calabria @ 0.801
8 33% Greek_Peloponnese + 33% Greek_Peloponnese + 33% Lebanese_Druze @ 0.807
9 33% Greek_Peloponnese + 33% Greek_Peloponnese + 33% Romaniote_Jew @ 0.809
10 33% Greek_Crete + 33% Greek_Laconia + 33% Greek_Dodecanese @ 0.809

Using 4 populations approximation
1 25% Albanian + 25% Albanian + 25% Cypriot + 25% Cypriot @ 0.733
2 25% Greek_Peloponnese + 25% Greek_Peloponnese + 25% Greek_Peloponnese + 25% Samaritan @ 0.766
3 25% Greek_Dodecanese + 25% Greek_Dodecanese + 25% Greek_Dodecanese + 25% Macedonian @ 0.777
4 25% Greek_Crete + 25% Greek_Crete + 25% Greek_Laconia + 25% Greek_Laconia @ 0.786
5 25% Greek_Peloponnese + 25% Greek_Peloponnese + 25% Greek_Peloponnese + 25% Iraqi_Jew @ 0.791
6 25% Greek_Laconia + 25% Greek_Laconia + 25% Greek_Laconia + 25% Greek_Cappadocia @ 0.795
7 25% Greek_Dodecanese + 25% Greek_Dodecanese + 25% Greek_Peloponnese + 25% Greek_Peloponnese @ 0.813
8 25% Greek_Dodecanese + 25% Greek_Dodecanese + 25% Greek_Dodecanese + 25% Bulgarian @ 0.814
9 25% Greek_Laconia + 25% Greek_Laconia + 25% Italian_Calabria + 25% Greek_Dodecanese @ 0.822
10 25% Greek_Laconia + 25% Greek_Laconia + 25% Greek_Laconia + 25% Turkish_Trabzon @ 0.823



https://i.ibb.co/VJBtJmS/gs.png



These are my stuff, all 3 of us are pretty close to the PCAs, but as a result of middle points from different starting points.




Oracle Calculator by www.dnagenics.com
v1.9 04/09/2020

Finished reading population data. 587 populations found.
25 components mode.

B distance calculation method.

--------------------------------


Mixed Mode:
1 56.25% Albanian + 43.75% Greek_Trabzon @ 0.709
2 56.25% Greek_Thessaly + 43.75% Greek_Trabzon @ 0.763
3 56.25% Albanian + 43.75% Georgian_Laz @ 0.771
4 56.25% Greek_Central_Macedonia + 43.75% Greek_Trabzon @ 0.780
5 56.25% Albanian + 43.75% Armenian_Hemsheni @ 0.784
6 68.75% Greek_Laconia + 31.25% Ossetian @ 0.819
7 81.25% Greek_Central_Anatolia + 18.75% Slovakian @ 0.830
8 81.25% Greek_Central_Anatolia + 18.75% Sorb_Niederlausitz @ 0.830
9 81.25% Greek_Central_Anatolia + 18.75% Polish @ 0.831
10 56.25% Albanian + 43.75% Georgian_Imer @ 0.836

Least-squares method.

Using 1 populations approximation
1 100% Greek_Crete @ 2.033
2 100% Greek_Izmir @ 2.062
3 100% Greek_Kos @ 2.286
4 100% Greek_Peloponnese @ 2.490
5 100% Italian_Molise @ 2.516
6 100% Italian_Apulia @ 2.570
7 100% Greek_Dodecanese @ 2.574
8 100% Italian_Abruzzo @ 2.670
9 100% Italian_Campania @ 2.710
10 100% Italian_Basilicata @ 2.725

Using 2 populations approximation
1 50% Albanian + 50% Greek_Trabzon @ 0.757
2 50% Albanian + 50% Georgian_Laz @ 0.764
3 50% Greek_Central_Macedonia + 50% Greek_Trabzon @ 0.787
4 50% Rumelia_East + 50% Greek_Trabzon @ 0.791
5 50% Albanian + 50% Armenian @ 0.802
6 50% Albanian + 50% Armenian_Hemsheni @ 0.819
7 50% Greek_Macedonia + 50% Greek_Trabzon @ 0.820
8 50% Greek_Trabzon + 50% Gagauz @ 0.825
9 50% Greek_Macedonia + 50% Armenian @ 0.878
10 50% Greek_Macedonia + 50% Georgian_Laz @ 0.896

Using 3 populations approximation
1 33% Greek_Peloponnese + 33% Greek_Peloponnese + 33% Georgian_Imer @ 0.731
2 33% Greek_Izmir + 33% Greek_Peloponnese + 33% Georgian_Imer @ 0.762
3 33% Greek_Peloponnese + 33% Greek_Peloponnese + 33% Georgian_Laz @ 0.772
4 33% Albanian + 33% Albanian + 33% Georgian_Imer @ 0.784
5 33% Greek_Peloponnese + 33% Italian_Apulia + 33% Georgian_Imer @ 0.812
6 33% Greek_Thessaly + 33% Greek_Thessaly + 33% Armenian_Hemsheni @ 0.820
7 33% Ashkenazi_Germany + 33% Albanian + 33% Georgian_Imer @ 0.825
8 33% Albanian + 33% Albanian + 33% Armenian_Hemsheni @ 0.827
9 33% Ashkenazi_Poland + 33% Albanian + 33% Georgian_Imer @ 0.828
10 33% Albanian + 33% Rumelia_East + 33% Armenian_Hemsheni @ 0.831

Using 4 populations approximation
1 25% Rumelia_East + 25% Rumelia_East + 25% Sephardic_Jew + 25% Georgian_Imer @ 0.727
2 25% Greek_Central_Anatolia + 25% Greek_Central_Anatolia + 25% Greek_Central_Anatolia + 25% Bosnian @ 0.780
3 25% Greek_Trabzon + 25% Greek_Trabzon + 25% Gagauz + 25% French_Corsica @ 0.791
4 25% Greek_Izmir + 25% Greek_Izmir + 25% Greek_Peloponnese + 25% Georgian_Imer @ 0.799
5 25% Rumelia_East + 25% Rumelia_East + 25% Sephardic_Jew + 25% Abkhasian @ 0.806
6 25% Greek_Crete + 25% Greek_Crete + 25% Greek_Crete + 25% Adygei @ 0.811
7 25% Greek_Trabzon + 25% Greek_Trabzon + 25% Gagauz + 25% Gagauz @ 0.825
8 25% Greek_Trabzon + 25% Greek_Trabzon + 25% Gagauz + 25% Italian_Piedmont @ 0.827
9 25% Greek_Trabzon + 25% Greek_Trabzon + 25% Gagauz + 25% Swiss_Italian @ 0.837
10 25% Greek_Crete + 25% Greek_Crete + 25% Greek_Izmir + 25% Adygei @ 0.838


https://i.ibb.co/HTpRvtP/dosas.png

Michalis Moriopoulos
03-16-2021, 03:27 AM
This may be of interest for you:

https://www.imbb.forth.gr/Tribute_in_memory_of_Dimitris/programme.php

ANCIENT DNA, PRECISION MEDICINE & AGRICULTURE
CUTTING EDGE POST-GENOMIC APPLICATIONS
A VIRTUAL EVENT TO HONOR THE MEMORY OF DIMITRIS KAFETZOPOULOS
Friday, March12th,10.00-15.10, on line webinar

11.55-12.10 “APOIKIA”:Ancient DNA analysis in novel multidisciplinary approach of ancient Corinthian colonization
Varvara Papadopoulou, Director of the Ephorate of Antiquities of Arta, Hellenic Ministry of Culture & Sports,Greece

I totally missed this virtual event and now I'm kicking myself.

She might have a pdf of her presentation here:
https://culture.academia.edu/VarvaraPapadopoulou
https://www.academia.edu/RegisterToDownload/BulkDownload

But it looks like it might be paywalled...

Or it might just be a pdf of the programme. Either way I wish we could see what her findings were.

dosas
03-16-2021, 07:17 AM
I totally missed this virtual event and now I'm kicking myself.

She might have a pdf of her presentation here:
https://culture.academia.edu/VarvaraPapadopoulou
https://www.academia.edu/RegisterToDownload/BulkDownload

But it looks like it might be paywalled...

Or it might just be a pdf of the programme. Either way I wish we could see what her findings were.


If you want to buy it, give us a paypal and we can all chip in.

dosas
03-16-2021, 03:47 PM
This is the Dodecad K12b of a friend of mine from childhood. She looks very similar to me, she is half from Pontus - Giresun paternally and from Ioannina, Epirus, maternally.



Components %
Gedrosia 11.98
Siberian 0.04
Northwest_African 0.08
Southeast_Asian 0.14
Atlantic_Med 20.88
North_European 16.31
South_Asian 0.42
East_African 0.00
Southwest_Asian 8.17
East_Asian 0.00
Caucasus 41.96
Sub_Saharan 0.00




Oracle Calculator by www.dnagenics.com
v1.9 01/08/2020

Finished reading population data. 290 populations found.
12 components mode.

A distance calculation method.

--------------------------------


Mixed Mode:
1 55.08% Laz + 44.92% Italy_FriuliVG @ 1.097
2 53.52% Italy_Romagna + 46.48% Georgian_Gurian @ 1.139
3 51.17% Italy_Tuscany + 48.83% Georgian_Gurian @ 1.243
4 58.20% Laz + 41.80% Italy_Trentino @ 1.304
5 55.86% Albanian_Kosovo + 44.14% Georgian_Adjara @ 1.353
6 50.39% Georgian_Gurian + 49.61% Italy_Tuscany @ 1.366
7 52.73% Georgian_Adjara + 47.27% Italy_FriuliVG @ 1.468
8 55.86% Italy_Romagna + 44.14% Georgian_Mingrelian @ 1.565
9 51.17% Georgian_Imereti + 48.83% Italy_Liguria @ 1.622
10 51.95% Georgian_Gurian + 48.05% Italy_Liguria @ 1.633

Least-squares method.

Using 1 populations approximation
1 100% Crimean_Tatar_Coast @ 7.457
2 100% Greek_Crete @ 9.837
3 100% Turk_West_BlackSea @ 11.299
4 100% Italy_Apulia @ 11.911
5 100% Crimean_Tatar_Mountain @ 12.110
6 100% Ashkenazy_Jews @ 12.669
7 100% Turk_Central_West @ 12.741
8 100% Greek @ 12.890
9 100% Italy_Calabria @ 13.201
10 100% Greek_Cappadocia @ 13.250

Using 2 populations approximation
1 50% Italy_Tuscany + 50% Georgian_Gurian @ 1.293
2 50% Georgian_Imereti + 50% Italy_Liguria @ 1.692
3 50% Georgian_Gurian + 50% Italy_Emilia @ 1.716
4 50% Italy_Emilia + 50% Georgian_Imereti @ 1.805
5 50% Georgian_Gurian + 50% Italy_Liguria @ 1.870
6 50% Italy_Tuscany + 50% Georgian_Imereti @ 1.921
7 50% Italy_Liguria + 50% Georgian_Mingrelian @ 2.017
8 50% Georgian_Turkey + 50% Italy_Veneto @ 2.109
9 50% Georgian_Adjara + 50% Italy_FriuliVG @ 2.122
10 50% Italy_Romagna + 50% Georgian_Gurian @ 2.126

Using 3 populations approximation
1 33% Laz + 33% Laz + 33% French @ 2.531
2 33% Hemshin + 33% Laz + 33% French @ 2.558
3 33% Laz + 33% Laz + 33% French @ 2.600
4 33% Hemshin + 33% Laz + 33% French @ 2.651
5 33% Hemshin + 33% Hemshin + 33% French @ 2.663
6 33% Hemshin + 33% Hemshin + 33% French @ 2.778
7 33% Italy_Campania + 33% Italy_Campania + 33% Adygei @ 2.794
8 33% Greek_Pontus + 33% Turk_Ahiska + 33% Italy_Aosta_Valley @ 2.864
9 33% Italy_Abruzzo + 33% Italy_Abruzzo + 33% Georgian_Svan @ 2.977
10 33% Italy_Lazio + 33% Italy_Lazio + 33% Abhkasians @ 3.098

Using 4 populations approximation
1 25% Georgian_Imereti + 25% Georgian_Imereti + 25% France_Corsica + 25% Italy_FriuliVG @ 1.589
2 25% Laz + 25% Laz + 25% Bulgarian + 25% Italy_Emilia @ 1.613
3 25% Laz + 25% Laz + 25% Bulgarian + 25% Italy_Tuscany @ 1.786
4 25% Georgian_Turkey + 25% Georgian_Turkey + 25% Italy_Emilia + 25% Italy_FriuliVG @ 1.799
5 25% Laz + 25% Laz + 25% Bulgarian + 25% Italy_Liguria @ 1.851
6 25% Laz + 25% Laz + 25% Bulgarian + 25% Italy_Lombardy @ 1.891
7 25% Georgian_Turkey + 25% Georgian_Turkey + 25% Romanians + 25% France_Corsica @ 2.015
8 25% Laz + 25% Laz + 25% Bulgarian + 25% France_Corsica @ 2.024
9 25% Laz + 25% Laz + 25% Bulgarian + 25% Italy_Piedmont @ 2.077
10 25% Albanian_Kosovo + 25% Albanian_Kosovo + 25% Greek_Pontus + 25% Georgian_Adjara @ 2.133


Her Pontic side looks very Georgian.


PS.

Something I noticed, all of us Balkan/Black Sea mutts seem to very frequently get Crimean Tatar Coast on relevant calculators on Single Pop. Distance.

lacreme
03-16-2021, 06:02 PM
I totally missed this virtual event and now I'm kicking myself.

She might have a pdf of her presentation here:
https://culture.academia.edu/VarvaraPapadopoulou
https://www.academia.edu/RegisterToDownload/BulkDownload

But it looks like it might be paywalled...

Or it might just be a pdf of the programme. Either way I wish we could see what her findings were.

It's just the leaflet...


This is the Dodecad K12b of a friend of mine from childhood. She looks very similar to me, she is half from Pontus - Giresun paternally and from Ioannina, Epirus, maternally.



Components %
Gedrosia 11.98
Siberian 0.04
Northwest_African 0.08
Southeast_Asian 0.14
Atlantic_Med 20.88
North_European 16.31
South_Asian 0.42
East_African 0.00
Southwest_Asian 8.17
East_Asian 0.00
Caucasus 41.96
Sub_Saharan 0.00




Oracle Calculator by www.dnagenics.com
v1.9 01/08/2020

Finished reading population data. 290 populations found.
12 components mode.

A distance calculation method.

--------------------------------


Mixed Mode:
1 55.08% Laz + 44.92% Italy_FriuliVG @ 1.097
2 53.52% Italy_Romagna + 46.48% Georgian_Gurian @ 1.139
3 51.17% Italy_Tuscany + 48.83% Georgian_Gurian @ 1.243
4 58.20% Laz + 41.80% Italy_Trentino @ 1.304
5 55.86% Albanian_Kosovo + 44.14% Georgian_Adjara @ 1.353
6 50.39% Georgian_Gurian + 49.61% Italy_Tuscany @ 1.366
7 52.73% Georgian_Adjara + 47.27% Italy_FriuliVG @ 1.468
8 55.86% Italy_Romagna + 44.14% Georgian_Mingrelian @ 1.565
9 51.17% Georgian_Imereti + 48.83% Italy_Liguria @ 1.622
10 51.95% Georgian_Gurian + 48.05% Italy_Liguria @ 1.633

Least-squares method.

Using 1 populations approximation
1 100% Crimean_Tatar_Coast @ 7.457
2 100% Greek_Crete @ 9.837
3 100% Turk_West_BlackSea @ 11.299
4 100% Italy_Apulia @ 11.911
5 100% Crimean_Tatar_Mountain @ 12.110
6 100% Ashkenazy_Jews @ 12.669
7 100% Turk_Central_West @ 12.741
8 100% Greek @ 12.890
9 100% Italy_Calabria @ 13.201
10 100% Greek_Cappadocia @ 13.250

Using 2 populations approximation
1 50% Italy_Tuscany + 50% Georgian_Gurian @ 1.293
2 50% Georgian_Imereti + 50% Italy_Liguria @ 1.692
3 50% Georgian_Gurian + 50% Italy_Emilia @ 1.716
4 50% Italy_Emilia + 50% Georgian_Imereti @ 1.805
5 50% Georgian_Gurian + 50% Italy_Liguria @ 1.870
6 50% Italy_Tuscany + 50% Georgian_Imereti @ 1.921
7 50% Italy_Liguria + 50% Georgian_Mingrelian @ 2.017
8 50% Georgian_Turkey + 50% Italy_Veneto @ 2.109
9 50% Georgian_Adjara + 50% Italy_FriuliVG @ 2.122
10 50% Italy_Romagna + 50% Georgian_Gurian @ 2.126

Using 3 populations approximation
1 33% Laz + 33% Laz + 33% French @ 2.531
2 33% Hemshin + 33% Laz + 33% French @ 2.558
3 33% Laz + 33% Laz + 33% French @ 2.600
4 33% Hemshin + 33% Laz + 33% French @ 2.651
5 33% Hemshin + 33% Hemshin + 33% French @ 2.663
6 33% Hemshin + 33% Hemshin + 33% French @ 2.778
7 33% Italy_Campania + 33% Italy_Campania + 33% Adygei @ 2.794
8 33% Greek_Pontus + 33% Turk_Ahiska + 33% Italy_Aosta_Valley @ 2.864
9 33% Italy_Abruzzo + 33% Italy_Abruzzo + 33% Georgian_Svan @ 2.977
10 33% Italy_Lazio + 33% Italy_Lazio + 33% Abhkasians @ 3.098

Using 4 populations approximation
1 25% Georgian_Imereti + 25% Georgian_Imereti + 25% France_Corsica + 25% Italy_FriuliVG @ 1.589
2 25% Laz + 25% Laz + 25% Bulgarian + 25% Italy_Emilia @ 1.613
3 25% Laz + 25% Laz + 25% Bulgarian + 25% Italy_Tuscany @ 1.786
4 25% Georgian_Turkey + 25% Georgian_Turkey + 25% Italy_Emilia + 25% Italy_FriuliVG @ 1.799
5 25% Laz + 25% Laz + 25% Bulgarian + 25% Italy_Liguria @ 1.851
6 25% Laz + 25% Laz + 25% Bulgarian + 25% Italy_Lombardy @ 1.891
7 25% Georgian_Turkey + 25% Georgian_Turkey + 25% Romanians + 25% France_Corsica @ 2.015
8 25% Laz + 25% Laz + 25% Bulgarian + 25% France_Corsica @ 2.024
9 25% Laz + 25% Laz + 25% Bulgarian + 25% Italy_Piedmont @ 2.077
10 25% Albanian_Kosovo + 25% Albanian_Kosovo + 25% Greek_Pontus + 25% Georgian_Adjara @ 2.133


Her Pontic side looks very Georgian.


PS.

Something I noticed, all of us Balkan/Black Sea mutts seem to very frequently get Crimean Tatar Coast on relevant calculators on Single Pop. Distance.

What can you tell about my friend's mother unknown part of her ancestry ? As a reminder she is 25% Cretan, 12.5% from Karaburna in west Asia Minor, 12.5% from the island of Milos from her mother's side but her father is unknown. Could her father had an unknown amount of straight up Cappadocian and or Pontic ancestry or could her results be as they are from multiple admixture events of Greeks from multiple regions through the ages ?


Components %
Gedrosia 10.31
Siberian 0.00
Northwest_African 2.44
Southeast_Asian 0.48
Atlantic_Med 20.89
North_European 14.90
South_Asian 0.84
East_African 0.87
Southwest_Asian 10.77
East_Asian 0.00
Caucasus 38.51
Sub_Saharan 0.00



Oracle Calculator by www.dnagenics.com
v1.9 01/08/2020

Finished reading population data. 290 populations found.
12 components mode.

A distance calculation method.

--------------------------------


Mixed Mode:
1 73.05% Italy_Apulia + 26.95% Turk_Ahiska @ 1.181
2 77.73% Italy_Apulia + 22.27% Georgian_Imereti @ 1.509
3 77.73% Italy_Apulia + 22.27% Georgian_Turkey @ 1.569
4 77.73% Italy_Apulia + 22.27% Georgian_Gurian @ 1.681
5 77.73% Italy_Calabria + 22.27% Chechens @ 1.715
6 77.73% Italy_Apulia + 22.27% Georgian_Adjara @ 1.796
7 78.52% Italy_Apulia + 21.48% Georgian_Mingrelian @ 1.820
8 78.52% Italy_Apulia + 21.48% Georgian_Svan @ 1.911
9 75.39% Italy_Apulia + 24.61% Hemshin @ 1.963
10 75.39% Italy_Apulia + 24.61% Laz @ 1.974
11 82.42% Greek_Crete + 17.58% Avar_Dagestan @ 2.098
12 77.73% Italy_Calabria + 22.27% Lezgins @ 2.145
13 69.92% Italy_Campania + 30.08% Circassian @ 2.152
14 67.58% Italy_Apulia + 32.42% Turk_East @ 2.182
15 73.05% Italy_Apulia + 26.95% Turk_East_Black_Sea @ 2.241
16 64.45% Greek + 35.55% Kurd_Kurmanji @ 2.285
17 70.70% Italy_Apulia + 29.30% Armenian_East @ 2.318
18 50.39% Albanian_North + 49.61% Armenian_West @ 2.363
19 64.45% Greek + 35.55% Zaza @ 2.371
20 50.39% Armenian_West + 49.61% Albanian_North @ 2.372

Least-squares method.

Using 1 populations approximation
1 100% Greek_Crete @ 5.747
2 100% Crimean_Tatar_Coast @ 6.777
3 100% Italy_Apulia @ 8.359
4 100% Italy_Calabria @ 8.994
5 100% Ashkenazy_Jews @ 9.276
6 100% Italy_Sicily @ 9.341
7 100% Italy_Campania @ 9.852
8 100% Turk_West_BlackSea @ 10.108
9 100% Ashkenazi @ 10.595
10 100% Italy_Abruzzo @ 10.668
11 100% Crimean_Tatar_Mountain @ 11.447
12 100% Turk_Central_West @ 11.517
13 100% Greek @ 11.596
14 100% Turk_Northwest @ 12.288
15 100% Turk_Anatolia @ 12.376
16 100% Turk_Southwest @ 12.494
17 100% Turk_Central_East @ 13.094
18 100% Sephardic_Jews @ 13.196
19 100% Greek_Cappadocia @ 13.509
20 100% Turk_South @ 14.184

Using 2 populations approximation
1 50% Albanian_North + 50% Armenian_West @ 2.362
2 50% Albanian_Kosovo + 50% Armenian_West @ 2.668
3 50% Georgia_Jews + 50% Italy_Veneto @ 3.045
4 50% Armenian_East + 50% Albanian_North @ 3.145
5 50% Italy_Lazio + 50% Turk_East @ 3.176
6 50% Albanian_Kosovo + 50% Armenian_East @ 3.180
7 50% Greek_Crete + 50% Crimean_Tatar_Coast @ 3.187
8 50% Italy_Marche + 50% Turk_East @ 3.391
9 50% Greek + 50% Turk_Central_East @ 3.599
10 50% Azerbaijan_Jews + 50% Italy_FriuliVG @ 3.690
11 50% Greek + 50% Turk_Southeast @ 3.719
12 50% Italy_Romagna + 50% Turk_Ahiska @ 3.732
13 50% Azerbaijan_Jews + 50% Italy_Veneto @ 3.742
14 50% Turk_East + 50% Italy_Romagna @ 3.747
15 50% Italy_Romagna + 50% Armenian_East @ 3.754
16 50% Georgia_Jews + 50% Italy_FriuliVG @ 3.762
17 50% Hemshin + 50% Italy_FriuliVG @ 3.763
18 50% Georgia_Jews + 50% Italy_Piedmont @ 3.776
19 50% Italy_Lazio + 50% Armenian_East @ 3.798
20 50% Albanian_North + 50% Azerbaijan_Jews @ 3.802

Using 3 populations approximation
1 33% Italy_Apulia + 33% Italy_Apulia + 33% Turk_East @ 2.188
2 33% Chechens + 33% Samaritians + 33% Baleares @ 2.280
3 33% Italy_Campania + 33% Italy_Campania + 33% Circassian @ 2.349
4 33% Italy_Apulia + 33% Italy_Apulia + 33% Turk_Ahiska @ 2.387
5 33% Greek + 33% Greek + 33% Kurd_Kurmanji @ 2.409
6 33% Italy_Sicily + 33% Italy_Campania + 33% Circassian @ 2.411
7 33% Greek + 33% Greek + 33% Talysh_Azerbaijan @ 2.440
8 33% Greek + 33% Greek + 33% Talysh_Azerbaijan @ 2.440
9 33% Ashkenazi + 33% Italy_Abruzzo + 33% Azerbaijani_Dagestan @ 2.442
10 33% Crimean_Tatar_Coast + 33% Italy_Apulia + 33% Greek_Cappadocia @ 2.456
11 33% Chechens + 33% Samaritians + 33% Andalucia @ 2.471
12 33% Greek + 33% Greek + 33% Kurd_Sorani @ 2.474
13 33% Greek + 33% Greek + 33% Zaza @ 2.486
14 33% Chechens + 33% Samaritians + 33% Spaniards @ 2.520
15 33% Italy_Apulia + 33% Italy_Apulia + 33% Armenian_East @ 2.592
16 33% Greek + 33% Greek + 33% Lur_Iran @ 2.611
17 33% Italy_Abruzzo + 33% Italy_Abruzzo + 33% Turk_Ahiska @ 2.672
18 33% Greek + 33% Greek + 33% Kurd @ 2.697
19 33% Greek + 33% Greek + 33% Turkmen_Iraq @ 2.748
20 33% Balkars + 33% Samaritians + 33% Cataluna @ 2.753

Using 4 populations approximation
1 25% Italy_Apulia + 25% Italy_Apulia + 25% Italy_Apulia + 25% Turk_Ahiska @ 1.284
2 25% Italy_Romagna + 25% Italy_Romagna + 25% Lebanese + 25% Georgian_Svan @ 1.448
3 25% Italy_Romagna + 25% Italy_Romagna + 25% Lebanese + 25% Georgian_Gurian @ 1.748
4 25% Italy_Apulia + 25% Italy_Apulia + 25% Italy_Apulia + 25% Georgian_Turkey @ 1.838
5 25% Italy_Marche + 25% Italy_Marche + 25% Nusayri_Turkey + 25% Adygei @ 1.842
6 25% Italy_Apulia + 25% Italy_Apulia + 25% Italy_Apulia + 25% Georgian_Imereti @ 1.851
7 25% Italy_Romagna + 25% Italy_Romagna + 25% Lebanese + 25% Georgian_Mingrelian @ 1.888
8 25% Italy_Apulia + 25% Italy_Apulia + 25% Italy_Apulia + 25% Georgian_Gurian @ 1.919
9 25% Italy_Calabria + 25% Italy_Calabria + 25% Ashkenazy_Jews + 25% Lezgins @ 1.952
10 25% Italy_Apulia + 25% Italy_Apulia + 25% Italy_Apulia + 25% Hemshin @ 1.966
11 25% Italy_Calabria + 25% Italy_Calabria + 25% Italy_Calabria + 25% Chechens @ 1.975
12 25% Italy_Apulia + 25% Italy_Apulia + 25% Italy_Apulia + 25% Laz @ 1.985
13 25% Italy_Apulia + 25% Italy_Apulia + 25% Italy_Apulia + 25% Georgian_Adjara @ 2.003
14 25% Italy_Lazio + 25% Italy_Lazio + 25% Nusayri_Turkey + 25% Adygei @ 2.024
15 25% Italy_Apulia + 25% Italy_Apulia + 25% Italy_Calabria + 25% Turk_Ahiska @ 2.047
16 25% Italy_Romagna + 25% Italy_Romagna + 25% Lebanese + 25% Adygei @ 2.062
17 25% Italy_Apulia + 25% Italy_Apulia + 25% Italy_Calabria + 25% Circassian @ 2.152
18 25% Italy_Apulia + 25% Italy_Apulia + 25% Italy_Calabria + 25% Georgian_Gurian @ 2.155
19 25% Italy_Marche + 25% Italy_Marche + 25% Nusayri_Turkey + 25% Balkars @ 2.163
20 25% Ashkenazy_Jews + 25% Ashkenazy_Jews + 25% Italy_Sicily + 25% Azerbaijani_Dagestan @ 2.218

dosas
03-16-2021, 06:25 PM
What can you tell about my friend's mother unknown part of her ancestry ? As a reminder she is 25% Cretan, 12.5% from Karaburna in west Asia Minor, 12.5% from the island of Milos from her mother's side but her father is unknown. Could her father had an unknown amount of straight up Cappadocian and or Pontic ancestry or could her results be as they are from multiple admixture events of Greeks from multiple regions through the ages ?

I don't know, both your scenarios seem probable but what I can tell you is that 38% Caucasian in K12b is pushing Pontic Greek ancestry of 50%+.

I have around 41%, and my mom, who is from Trebizond proper, has 52%.

Her profile looks similar to mine:



Components %
Gedrosia 8.66
Siberian 0.82
Northwest_African 0.70
Southeast_Asian 0.00
Atlantic_Med 19.17
North_European 18.29
South_Asian 0.48
East_African 0.40
Southwest_Asian 10.11
East_Asian 0.00
Caucasus 41.17
Sub_Saharan 0.21


The relatively low Gedrosian pushes her into NWAsian and Caucasus territory rather than Armenia/Cappadocia, imo.

23abc
03-16-2021, 07:45 PM
I don't know, both your scenarios seem probable but what I can tell you is that 38% Caucasian in K12b is pushing Pontic Greek ancestry of 50%+.

I have around 41%, and my mom, who is from Trebizond proper, has 52%.

The average Dodecanese scores 40% Caucasian and other islands (Crete, Chios and others) can score 35-38%. The mainland scores a little above 30% in most areas. So while the percentages with you ends up being similar the source doesn't have to be from Pontus. I agree with your previous models that admixture from the Levant is not the major thing in the Dodecanese. It is Iranian related admixture, which seems to have spread all across Anatolia and even reached Greece in various levels, peaking in the Dodecanese. Working out when this spike occured will be crucial to understanding the actual source population for it.

And lacreme, you honestly can't work it out only with oracle results with such a mixed background. If your mother's ancestry could be neatly divided into 2 places it may have been possible to have a good guess, but the split is too much. Best bet is to try to find DNA matches related to the unknown, but that can be very difficult.

My mother's ancestry is essentially 1/4 unknown and the oracles think she could be 50% Cappadocian/Pontic. I don't believe it's so high, but I am willing to assume it is possible the 1/4 unknown has such an origin. I tried to use DNA matches but all of the 'close' ones linked to her come from her known ancestry (Dodecanese). All the distant ones, who are small in number, come from random places such as Russia, Ukraine, North Macedonia, Italy, Armenia, Cyprus... none that would help link to her grandfather who was said to be from Polis.

Greekscholar
03-16-2021, 09:20 PM
snip]

33% Greek_Central_Macedonia + 33% Albanian + 33% Samaritan @ 0.729

A Macedonian, an Albanian and a Samaritan walk into a bar......

All jokes aside, thanks very much. The Oracles seem to be on the same page and more or less match what I know about my ancestry. It is does not seem as complicated as some of the others you have posted. I hope to one day lock down the possible Peloponnesean ancestry once and for all though.

I am not sure I updated my cousin's Y results, but he is confirmed I-A10959 and is grouped on the I2a project with a large group of Peloponneseans. He has an identical STR match out to 12 markers whose male line is also from the Peloponnese, specifically the village of Vlachokerasia in Arcadia, but we can't convince him to test with more markers. Edit: I just checked my cousin's FTDNA page and it seems like he has a new match, of course again a person who only tested with 12 STR. Genetic distance 0.........from Romania. Not to change the subject, but does any of this matter at 12 STR? I have never been able to wrap my head around the Y-stuff and still struggle to make sense of what matches do or do not mean.


I don't think that is what this calculator is picking up with the Laconia reference though. It seems to be a nice landing spot for intermediate Greek genetic profiles with less CHG/Iran_N and more EEF.

dosas
03-16-2021, 09:42 PM
I am not sure I updated my cousin's Y results, but he is confirmed I-A10959 and is grouped on the I2a project with a large group of Peloponneseans. He has an identical STR match out to 12 markers whose male line is also from the Peloponnese, specifically the village of Vlachokerasia in Arcadia, but we can't convince him to test with more markers. Edit: I just checked my cousin's FTDNA page and it seems like he has a new match, of course again a person who only tested with 12 STR. Genetic distance 0.........from Romania. Not to change the subject, but does any of this matter at 12 STR? I have never been able to wrap my head around the Y-stuff and still struggle to make sense of what matches do or do not mean.


Ask the project admins to have a look and tell you if it's worth pursuing. They have a better UI that allows them to extrapolate better distances.

Greekscholar
03-16-2021, 10:36 PM
Ask the project admins to have a look and tell you if it's worth pursuing. They have a better UI that allows them to extrapolate better distances.

I'm fairly certain we contacted him at the project admin.'s recommendation. My cousin exchanged a few texts with the guy, learned a little about his lineage, but the conversation stopped when it came to paying more money for additional testing. I think the other guy got the testing kit as a gift and didn't really know or care too much about it. I should just take some of the US stimulus money and contact the guy myself (several of my family members have access to the FTDNA site since the money for the testing was crowdsourced, which is part of the overall issue.) and offer to pay for it.

What stops me is the reality that I could sink "Big-Y" type money into trying to solve this genealogy mystery and still fail.

lacreme
03-16-2021, 10:50 PM
...
And lacreme, you honestly can't work it out only with oracle results with such a mixed background. If your mother's ancestry could be neatly divided into 2 places it may have been possible to have a good guess, but the split is too much. Best bet is to try to find DNA matches related to the unknown, but that can be very difficult.

My mother's ancestry is essentially 1/4 unknown and the oracles think she could be 50% Cappadocian/Pontic. I don't believe it's so high, but I am willing to assume it is possible the 1/4 unknown has such an origin. I tried to use DNA matches but all of the 'close' ones linked to her come from her known ancestry (Dodecanese). All the distant ones, who are small in number, come from random places such as Russia, Ukraine, North Macedonia, Italy, Armenia, Cyprus... none that would help link to her grandfather who was said to be from Polis.

Yeah I understand that... Unfortunately for her case, having partial ancestry from Crete and especially from Sfakia, which is if I recall correctly from the Cretan study a somewhat drifted ? area, means that her list of DNA matches is drowned by people with such ancestry...

I think I have posted it before but It doesn't hurt to post it again..
after sorting through them (myheritage+ftdna lists ) for hours upon hours there is only one possible but distant match as lead. Problem is that to check if it worth pursuing it first I have to find samples or even better averages from Chios* and the Ionian islands (focusing on Kerkyra* ) with the relevant coordinates for use with as many calculators as possible to make some models, for which there aren't consistent samples on the various calculators.

*That match has mixed ancestry from these places

Johnny ola
03-16-2021, 11:13 PM
The average Dodecanese scores 40% Caucasian and other islands (Crete, Chios and others) can score 35-38%. The mainland scores a little above 30% in most areas. So while the percentages with you ends up being similar the source doesn't have to be from Pontus. I agree with your previous models that admixture from the Levant is not the major thing in the Dodecanese. It is Iranian related admixture, which seems to have spread all across Anatolia and even reached Greece in various levels, peaking in the Dodecanese. Working out when this spike occured will be crucial to understanding the actual source population for it.

And lacreme, you honestly can't work it out only with oracle results with such a mixed background. If your mother's ancestry could be neatly divided into 2 places it may have been possible to have a good guess, but the split is too much. Best bet is to try to find DNA matches related to the unknown, but that can be very difficult.

My mother's ancestry is essentially 1/4 unknown and the oracles think she could be 50% Cappadocian/Pontic. I don't believe it's so high, but I am willing to assume it is possible the 1/4 unknown has such an origin. I tried to use DNA matches but all of the 'close' ones linked to her come from her known ancestry (Dodecanese). All the distant ones, who are small in number, come from random places such as Russia, Ukraine, North Macedonia, Italy, Armenia, Cyprus... none that would help link to her grandfather who was said to be from Polis.


Depends.Some individuals are more Iran N shifted while others are more PPNB.The point is that such admixtures arrived either from Anatolia or the Levant.And as you mention they don't have to do necessarily with Pontics,Cappadocians etc.Greek islanders are the most west asian shifted Greeks along with Cypriots.They are actually more west asian admixed than the Imzir samples(thought these samples are obviously immigrants from mainland Greece and islands).


Target: Greek_Dodecanese:673
Distance: 1.3059% / 0.01305854
51.2 TUR_Barcin_N
20.6 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
11.8 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
8.8 Levant_PPNB
7.6 GEO_CHG

Target: Greek_Dodecanese:672
Distance: 2.4543% / 0.02454255
50.6 TUR_Barcin_N
16.4 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
13.6 Levant_PPNB
10.0 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
9.4 GEO_CHG

Target: Greek_Dodecanese:671
Distance: 1.8011% / 0.01801071
52.6 TUR_Barcin_N
21.8 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
14.6 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
4.8 Levant_PPNB
3.4 GEO_CHG
2.8 Levant_PPNB_contam

Target: Greek_Dodecanese:670
Distance: 2.2463% / 0.02246276
44.2 TUR_Barcin_N
18.2 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
17.8 Levant_PPNB
17.8 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
2.0 GEO_CHG

Target: Greek_Dodecanese:669
Distance: 2.4029% / 0.02402914
41.0 TUR_Barcin_N
20.6 Levant_PPNB
19.8 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
16.2 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
2.4 GEO_CHG

Target: Greek_Dodecanese:668
Distance: 2.1031% / 0.02103147
42.4 TUR_Barcin_N
23.4 Levant_PPNB
16.0 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
13.4 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
4.8 GEO_CHG

Target: Greek_Dodecanese:667
Distance: 3.2351% / 0.03235134
47.4 TUR_Barcin_N
19.6 Levant_PPNB
14.6 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
12.6 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
5.8 GEO_CHG

Target: Greek_Dodecanese:666
Distance: 1.7324% / 0.01732356
41.4 TUR_Barcin_N
21.8 Levant_PPNB
14.6 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
13.6 GEO_CHG
8.6 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara

Target: Greek_Dodecanese:665
Distance: 3.2976% / 0.03297590
46.8 TUR_Barcin_N
20.4 Levant_PPNB
11.8 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
10.8 GEO_CHG
10.2 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N

Target: Greek_Dodecanese:664
Distance: 1.0420% / 0.01041971
42.2 TUR_Barcin_N
21.2 Levant_PPNB
15.2 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
14.8 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
6.6 GEO_CHG

Target: Greek_Kos:GreeceKos9
Distance: 1.7892% / 0.01789248
44.4 TUR_Barcin_N
18.8 Levant_PPNB
17.4 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
10.4 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
9.0 GEO_CHG

Target: Greek_Kos:GreeceKos8
Distance: 1.4310% / 0.01430959
52.2 TUR_Barcin_N
14.2 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
13.6 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
10.2 Levant_PPNB
9.8 GEO_CHG

Target: Greek_Kos:GreeceKos7
Distance: 1.8841% / 0.01884077
49.0 TUR_Barcin_N
17.8 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
14.2 Levant_PPNB
12.2 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
6.8 GEO_CHG

Target: Greek_Kos:GreeceKos6
Distance: 1.5731% / 0.01573080
43.4 TUR_Barcin_N
20.0 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
13.0 Levant_PPNB
10.6 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
7.2 GEO_CHG
5.8 Levant_PPNB_contam

Target: Greek_Kos:GreeceKos5
Distance: 1.5539% / 0.01553860
52.8 TUR_Barcin_N
18.6 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
15.4 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
11.4 Levant_PPNB
1.8 GEO_CHG

Target: Greek_Kos:GreeceKos4
Distance: 1.4148% / 0.01414754
40.2 TUR_Barcin_N
20.4 Levant_PPNB
16.4 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
15.2 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
7.8 GEO_CHG

Target: Greek_Kos:GreeceKos2
Distance: 1.4792% / 0.01479200
36.8 TUR_Barcin_N
27.2 Levant_PPNB
17.6 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
10.8 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
7.6 GEO_CHG

Target: Greek_Kos:GreeceKos10
Distance: 1.6279% / 0.01627876
47.4 TUR_Barcin_N
19.6 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
16.6 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
12.0 Levant_PPNB
4.4 GEO_CHG

Target: Greek_Kos:GreeceKos1
Distance: 1.6746% / 0.01674601
54.8 TUR_Barcin_N
13.0 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
11.4 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
11.0 Levant_PPNB
9.8 GEO_CHG

Greekscholar
03-17-2021, 12:05 AM
Yeah I understand that... Unfortunately for her case, having partial ancestry from Crete and especially from Sfakia, which is if I recall correctly from the Cretan study a somewhat drifted ? area, means that her list of DNA matches is drowned by people with such ancestry...

I think I have posted it before but It doesn't hurt to post it again..
after sorting through them (myheritage+ftdna lists ) for hours upon hours there is only one possible but distant match as lead. Problem is that to check if it worth pursuing it first I have to find samples or even better averages from Chios* and the Ionian islands (focusing on Kerkyra* ) with the relevant coordinates for use with as many calculators as possible to make some models, for which there aren't consistent samples on the various calculators.

*That match has mixed ancestry from these places

Have you created a phased kit for Chris' mom yet? If not, I would recommend it. Using the phased kit would help eliminate false matches. It cuts down on the matches overall because it would be a phase file, but you always have her full kit to compare back to if you find a lead from the more limited phased data.

23abc
03-17-2021, 01:08 AM
Depends.Some individuals are more Iran N shifted while others are more PPNB.The point is that such admixtures arrived either from Anatolia or the Levant.And as you mention they don't have to do necessarily with Pontics,Cappadocians etc.Greek islanders are the most west asian shifted Greeks along with Cypriots.They are actually more west asian admixed than the Imzir samples(thought these samples are obviously immigrants from mainland Greece and islands)

Yes, I'm mainly referring to models that use Natufian rather than the PPNB/PPNC samples. I think what I'm getting here is that just because Levantine pops can appear in a calculator doesn't mean there is actually any direct Levantine ancestry. I know there is some debate at the effectiveness of commercial DNA tests such as 23andMe, but we can see that on 23andMe it is extremely rare for any Greek to score Levantine. The most common categories scored are always the Iranian/Mesopotamian & Cypriot. On AncestryDNA this ('Middle Eastern') is still a sizeable component but has fallen significantly since the addition of a Cypriot category. I think some people alluded to Cappadocians being referred to as 'White Syrians'. Actually if there is 1 population that would best provide increased both Iran_N and Levant_N it would be Syrian. The G25 avereges include good samples for the Muslim populations of the Middle East but less for the Christian populations which would actually be possible recent sources.

There was a little discussion about source ancestries in the Dodecanese on another thread in this forum. A user claimed there was a continued presence of foreign admixture into the Dodecanese 'until this day'. This clearly cannot be the case and was laughable. It was later backtracked and suggested this West Asian admixture entered instead 100-200 years ago. Now I'm not going to deny that there are going to be some individuals with a grandparent that was not native to the area. But for the vast majority of people, this is simply not the case. And on the autosomal level, there are individuals with trees with no foreign ancestors in that time period scoring the exact same way as the majority of others from the area. Not to mention, at least for my experience with Kalymnian DNA, this is also impossible due to the significant amount of DNA sharing between distant cousin matches. I mean it is quite common for two full Kalymnians to share 2-4% of DNA with 3rd and 4th cousins, quite similar to what happens in other endogamous communities (Ashkenazi, for example). If the West Asian ancestry was so recent as 100-200 years ago I don't see how it's possible for this heavy IBD sharing to happen.

But if the increased West Asian is an extremely recent phenomenon, I'd say it can only happen as recently as 1500-1600 AD. Any later then that and we run into some problems with explaining what I mention above. I hope some Middle Ages samples can be revealed for all of Greece, Anatolia & Cyprus so we can get a better idea of how much has changed and how recent the change was.

On a related topic, I think a good candidate for a mixed post-IA Greek sample is the Ostrogothic_Crimea_ACD which was found in the city of Pantikapaion Crimea at a time where it was under heavy Roman/Greek influence.

It can be modelled similarly to 50% Southern Italian & 50% North Caucasian related ancestry compared to modern samples. It would have been great if there was a 100% North Caucasian sample from the same period to compare / subtract it from to see if it's just a coincidence or not.

dosas
03-17-2021, 06:02 AM
I think some people alluded to Cappadocians being referred to as 'White Syrians'. Actually if there is 1 population that would best provide increased both Iran_N and Levant_N it would be Syrian. The G25 avereges include good samples for the Muslim populations of the Middle East but less for the Christian populations which would actually be possible recent sources.



Just a clarification, most sources attribute the tag of "White Syrian" to Assyrian populations, since the two terms are used inter-changeably, not actual modern Syrians from the Levant. They are mentioned by sources as old as Herodotus, and their "descend" in Anatolia was heavily facilitated by the Seleucids who used them as mercenary corps in their armies.

Johnny ola
03-17-2021, 11:59 AM
Yes, I'm mainly referring to models that use Natufian rather than the PPNB/PPNC samples. I think what I'm getting here is that just because Levantine pops can appear in a calculator doesn't mean there is actually any direct Levantine ancestry. I know there is some debate at the effectiveness of commercial DNA tests such as 23andMe, but we can see that on 23andMe it is extremely rare for any Greek to score Levantine. The most common categories scored are always the Iranian/Mesopotamian & Cypriot. On AncestryDNA this ('Middle Eastern') is still a sizeable component but has fallen significantly since the addition of a Cypriot category. I think some people alluded to Cappadocians being referred to as 'White Syrians'. Actually if there is 1 population that would best provide increased both Iran_N and Levant_N it would be Syrian. The G25 avereges include good samples for the Muslim populations of the Middle East but less for the Christian populations which would actually be possible recent sources.

There was a little discussion about source ancestries in the Dodecanese on another thread in this forum. A user claimed there was a continued presence of foreign admixture into the Dodecanese 'until this day'. This clearly cannot be the case and was laughable. It was later backtracked and suggested this West Asian admixture entered instead 100-200 years ago. Now I'm not going to deny that there are going to be some individuals with a grandparent that was not native to the area. But for the vast majority of people, this is simply not the case. And on the autosomal level, there are individuals with trees with no foreign ancestors in that time period scoring the exact same way as the majority of others from the area. Not to mention, at least for my experience with Kalymnian DNA, this is also impossible due to the significant amount of DNA sharing between distant cousin matches. I mean it is quite common for two full Kalymnians to share 2-4% of DNA with 3rd and 4th cousins, quite similar to what happens in other endogamous communities (Ashkenazi, for example). If the West Asian ancestry was so recent as 100-200 years ago I don't see how it's possible for this heavy IBD sharing to happen.

But if the increased West Asian is an extremely recent phenomenon, I'd say it can only happen as recently as 1500-1600 AD. Any later then that and we run into some problems with explaining what I mention above. I hope some Middle Ages samples can be revealed for all of Greece, Anatolia & Cyprus so we can get a better idea of how much has changed and how recent the change was.

On a related topic, I think a good candidate for a mixed post-IA Greek sample is the Ostrogothic_Crimea_ACD which was found in the city of Pantikapaion Crimea at a time where it was under heavy Roman/Greek influence.

It can be modelled similarly to 50% Southern Italian & 50% North Caucasian related ancestry compared to modern samples. It would have been great if there was a 100% North Caucasian sample from the same period to compare / subtract it from to see if it's just a coincidence or not.

Well you have a point and i pretty much understanding what you mean...but i wouldn't take so serious the companies and what they provide.For example both my mother and mine results are quite different from what we 'score' in Gedmatch,G25 and Genopolot calucators.Its a mess trying to connect DNA companies and their data with the calucators we are using to estimate our autosomal.Personally i doubt the west asian mix among Greek islanders(and not only) is a recent phenomenon.Ofc there are individuals being admixed with someone from Pontus,Cappadocia etc but overall such admixtures are there for quite long.You have just to take a look at Rome Imperial samples..Rome Imperial was mostly 'Greek islander' like and i am pretty sure that Greeks used to be like this before the Slavic and barbarian migrations.Also,i would like to mention something...because some people are a little bit confused or in general they do not know it.With exception those who come from Pontus and Cappadocia....the rest of Anatolian Greeks are pretty much Greeks from mainland and islands.I mean the people with origins/ancestry from Smyrna,Aivali,Bursa,Cilicia,East Rumelia,Thrace,Kostantinoupoli and the west anatolian coast in general etc.They are mostly immigrants from various parts of mainland Greece and islands of northern aegean and dodecannese.Their autosomal confirms it...and besides that, there are documents that Greeks were moving a lot during the Ottoman times.They were good merchants,travellers,sailors,educated people etc...along with Jews and Armenians...they were pretty much the most activated folks at Ottoman times.Not any Greek/Roman Christian left after the occupation/collapse of Byzantine Empire.When Ottomans took the city...they slaughtered the Christian-Roman populations.Many of them become slaves and they sold in Europe and West Asia bazaars.And ofc many of them converted to Islam(that is also why modern western Anatolian Turks have something close to Greek islanders).A few of them who survived left for Greece and Europe.My point is that with exception Pontus and Cappadocia the rest of the other Greeks are quite homogenous..with only exception that mainland Greeks are obviously more 'steppe' related while Greek islanders have less steppe and more west asian mix.

bovefex
03-17-2021, 01:02 PM
Many of them become slaves and they sold in Europe and West Asia bazaars.And ofc many of them converted to Islam(that is also why modern western Anatolian Turks have something close to Greek islanders).

Personally, I don't think western Anatolian Turks' native ancestry is necessarily something close to Greek Islanders. See these models (KAZ_Karakhanid is a proxy for Central Asian Turkic, btw):


Target: Turkish_Northwest
Distance: 2.0334% / 0.02033443
71.2 Greek_Central_Anatolia
28.8 KAZ_Karakhanid

Target: Turkish_Southwest
Distance: 1.7253% / 0.01725300
72.0 Greek_Central_Anatolia
28.0 KAZ_Karakhanid


Target: Turkish_Northwest
Distance: 2.0153% / 0.02015293
67.0 Greek_Central_Anatolia
29.0 KAZ_Karakhanid
4.0 Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2

Target: Turkish_Southwest
Distance: 1.7253% / 0.01725300
72.0 Greek_Central_Anatolia
28.0 KAZ_Karakhanid
0.0 Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2


Target: Turkish_Northwest
Distance: 1.8044% / 0.01804406
40.0 Greek_Central_Anatolia
31.4 Greek_Kos
28.6 KAZ_Karakhanid
0.0 Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2

Target: Turkish_Southwest
Distance: 1.6167% / 0.01616694
52.0 Greek_Central_Anatolia
27.8 KAZ_Karakhanid
20.2 Greek_Kos
0.0 Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2


Target: Turkish_Northwest
Distance: 1.0454% / 0.01045374
58.0 Greek_Central_Anatolia
27.4 KAZ_Karakhanid
14.6 Serbian
0.0 Greek_Kos
0.0 Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2

Target: Turkish_Southwest
Distance: 1.4841% / 0.01484133
65.4 Greek_Central_Anatolia
27.2 KAZ_Karakhanid
7.4 Serbian
0.0 Greek_Kos
0.0 Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2

As you can see, western Anatolian Turks do not score any/very minor Empuries2 when accounted for the Central Anatolian ancestry. The addition of Greek_Kos does improve the fits, but the difference is in my opinion nothing earth-shattering. However, the inclusion of Serbian improves fits, especially for Turkish_Northwest. Of course, this doesn't necessarily mean western Turks have Slavic-admixture: it might also be excess Phrygian and the like compared to more Central Turks. Though to be honest, seeing as northwest Anatolia is so close to Thrace, some South Slavic-admixture wouldn't surprise me one bit. Or maybe the original Phrygians or Bithynians were genetically similar to modern South Slavs.

However, this, combined with the fact that Greek Islanders generally somehow score way Anatolian BA than Empuries2 does make one wonder: just what even happened to the ancient Greeks of the eastern Aegean coast? This might mean three things:

1) They were much smaller in number than we think they were.
2) They were almost completely exterminated.
3) Those Greeks were way more BA Anatolian-like than the ancient Greek samples we have now.

If number 2 is the case, the extermination event would have had to happen very, very long ago, seeing as even Aegean Islanders score less Empuries2 than expected. I think number 1 is also not very likely, seeing as those Greeks definitely made their mark in history, but we sadly don't have enough samples to prove whether number 3 is true or not.

Johnny ola
03-17-2021, 01:49 PM
Personally, I don't think western Anatolian Turks' native ancestry is necessarily something close to Greek Islanders. See these models (KAZ_Karakhanid is a proxy for Central Asian Turkic, btw):


Target: Turkish_Northwest
Distance: 2.0334% / 0.02033443
71.2 Greek_Central_Anatolia
28.8 KAZ_Karakhanid

Target: Turkish_Southwest
Distance: 1.7253% / 0.01725300
72.0 Greek_Central_Anatolia
28.0 KAZ_Karakhanid


Target: Turkish_Northwest
Distance: 2.0153% / 0.02015293
67.0 Greek_Central_Anatolia
29.0 KAZ_Karakhanid
4.0 Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2

Target: Turkish_Southwest
Distance: 1.7253% / 0.01725300
72.0 Greek_Central_Anatolia
28.0 KAZ_Karakhanid
0.0 Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2


Target: Turkish_Northwest
Distance: 1.8044% / 0.01804406
40.0 Greek_Central_Anatolia
31.4 Greek_Kos
28.6 KAZ_Karakhanid
0.0 Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2

Target: Turkish_Southwest
Distance: 1.6167% / 0.01616694
52.0 Greek_Central_Anatolia
27.8 KAZ_Karakhanid
20.2 Greek_Kos
0.0 Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2


Target: Turkish_Northwest
Distance: 1.0454% / 0.01045374
58.0 Greek_Central_Anatolia
27.4 KAZ_Karakhanid
14.6 Serbian
0.0 Greek_Kos
0.0 Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2

Target: Turkish_Southwest
Distance: 1.4841% / 0.01484133
65.4 Greek_Central_Anatolia
27.2 KAZ_Karakhanid
7.4 Serbian
0.0 Greek_Kos
0.0 Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2

As you can see, western Anatolian Turks do not score any/very minor Empuries2 when accounted for the Central Anatolian ancestry. The addition of Greek_Kos does improve the fits, but the difference is in my opinion nothing earth-shattering. However, the inclusion of Serbian improves fits, especially for Turkish_Northwest. Of course, this doesn't necessarily mean western Turks have Slavic-admixture: it might also be excess Phrygian and the like compared to more Central Turks. Though to be honest, seeing as northwest Anatolia is so close to Thrace, some South Slavic-admixture wouldn't surprise me one bit. Or maybe the original Phrygians or Bithynians were genetically similar to modern South Slavs.

However, this, combined with the fact that Greek Islanders generally somehow score way Anatolian BA than Empuries2 does make one wonder: just what even happened to the ancient Greeks of the eastern Aegean coast? This might mean three things:

1) They were much smaller in number than we think they were.
2) They were almost completely exterminated.
3) Those Greeks were way more BA Anatolian-like than the ancient Greek samples we have now.

If number 2 is the case, the extermination event would have had to happen very, very long ago, seeing as even Aegean Islanders score less Empuries2 than expected. I think number 1 is also not very likely, seeing as those Greeks definitely made their mark in history, but we sadly don't have enough samples to prove whether number 3 is true or not.


Well,this is the Greek thread and i don't want to ruin it with Turkish genetics.We have discuss it many times that Western Anatolian Turks cannot be modeled as only 2 way... 'Central Anatolian/Cappadocian' Greek with additional 'Turkoman' related admixture.They need something close to Greek islanders or even to Greeks in general(prolly due to their Slavic/Balkanic mix).Well,if you do not agree with me....you can speak with the most knowledge and informative Turkish member(when it comes to Turkish genetics) witch is Onur Dincer(also a very close friend of mine).Its first and for all his own opinion after many analysis he has done based on Anatolian genetics.He was the first mentioning that western Anatolian Turks are not a pure central anatolian/cappadocian Greek(or bronze age anatolian if you want it) subgroup with 'Turkoman' admixture.

peloponnesian
03-17-2021, 01:54 PM
However, this, combined with the fact that Greek Islanders generally somehow score way Anatolian BA than Empuries2 does make one wonder: just what even happened to the ancient Greeks of the eastern Aegean coast? This might mean three things:

1) They were much smaller in number than we think they were.
2) They were almost completely exterminated.
3) Those Greeks were way more BA Anatolian-like than the ancient Greek samples we have now.

If number 2 is the case, the extermination event would have had to happen very, very long ago, seeing as even Aegean Islanders score less Empuries2 than expected. I think number 1 is also not very likely, seeing as those Greeks definitely made their mark in history, but we sadly don't have enough samples to prove whether number 3 is true or not.

I don't think we have enough samples to answer these questions. We don't know what ancient Greek islanders apart from Cretans were like, we only have the new Koufonissia samples if I'm not mistaken. As for ancient Ionians, the Empuries Phocaeans are just 2 samples so it's a stretch to try to extrapolate so hard from them.

We also don't know if and to what extent commoners and slaves differed autosomally from the ancient Greek elites whose history is the one we know the most about. Let's not forget that the majority of the ancient Greek population were not aristocrats or even free citizens. Statistically, modern Laconians and Messenians should have much more ancestry from helots and perioikoi than from the legendary Spartan warriors. The commoners/slaves belonging mostly to a Pelasgian - EEF substratum seems like an obvious answer but the Lazaridis paper has seriously undermined the "Greek steppe elites vs Pelasgian EEF commoners" hypothesis.

edit: I forgot to mention how it's possible there were varying degrees of Anatolian admixture in different Greek populations. Or between the coastal cities and the hinterland, similar to Italy. To sum it up, there's a lot we don't know yet and the future is exciting. Michalis has mentioned how he expects the ancient Greek world to have a rich variation and population structure and I think he's right.

bovefex
03-17-2021, 02:00 PM
Well,this is the Greek thread and i don't want to ruin it with Turkish genetics.We have discuss it many times that Western Anatolian Turks cannot be modeled as only 2 way... 'Central Anatolian/Cappadocian' Greek with additional 'Turkoman' related admixture.They need something close to Greek islanders or even to Greeks in general(prolly due to their Slavic/Balkanic mix).Well,if you do not agree with me....you can speak with the most knowledge and informative Turkish member(when it comes to Turkish genetics) witch is Onur Dincer(also a very close friend of mine).Its first and for all his own opinion after many analysis he has done based on Anatolian genetics.He was the first mentioning that western Anatolian Turks are not a pure central anatolian/cappadocian Greek(or bronze age anatolian if you want it) subgroup with 'Turkoman' admixture.

Personally, I think you should always take neighboring populations into account when talking about a certain group. I was using only using Turks to illustrate a situation about Greeks anyway. In any case, if that is indeed the most agreed-upon conclusion, I will respect it.

Johnny ola
03-17-2021, 02:09 PM
Personally, I think you should always take neighboring populations into account when talking about a certain group. I was using only using Turks to illustrate a situation about Greeks anyway. In any case, if that is indeed the most agreed-upon conclusion, I will respect it.

The fact that Greek Islanders and West Anatolian Turks do not score high Empuries2 and in general their genes are less 'Greek-Mycenaean' and more 'Bronze Age Anatolian/West asian' does not making them identical to Central Anatolian/Cappadocian/Kayiseri Turks and Greeks.They are not so west asian admixed and ofc they are obviously more steppe related.More samples would help...no1s doubt about it.But saying that Western Anatolian Turks are a a mix of 2 sources(cappadocian Greek and Turkoman) is completely wrong.Also i really doubt the west anatolian coast was genetically like Cappadocia,Pontus and Western Armenia or southeast Turkey(northern mesopotamia lands).The samples we have from Isparta are not so west asian admixed like the samples we have from kaman-katahoyk,Arslantepe,Titrish Hüyük etc.Its obvious that as deeper you moving to anatolian then CHG/Iran N/Levant PPNB components increasing.Such issues will be solved only with samples from the IA,Hellenistic period and Roman times etc.

bovefex
03-17-2021, 02:21 PM
The fact that Greek Islanders and West Anatolian Turks do not score high Empuries2 and in general their genes are less 'Greek-Mycenaean' and more 'Bronze Age Anatolian/West asian' does not making them identical to Central Anatolian/Cappadocian/Kayiseri Turks and Greeks.They are not so west asian admixed and ofc they are obviously more steppe related.More samples would help...no1s doubt about it.But saying that Western Anatolian Turks are a a mix of 2 sources(cappadocian Greek and Turkoman) is completely wrong.Also i really doubt the west anatolian coast was genetically like Cappadocia,Pontus and Western Armenia or southeast Turkey(northern mesopotamia lands).The samples we have from Isparta are not so west asian admixed like the samples we have from kaman-katahoyk,Arslantepe,Titrish Hüyük etc.Its obvious that as deeper you moving to anatolian then CHG/Iran N/Levant PPNB components increasing.Such issues will be solved only with samples from the IA,Hellenistic period and Roman times etc.


Target: TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA
Distance: 2.7025% / 0.02702496
55.0 TUR_Barcin_N
17.2 GEO_CHG
14.2 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
13.6 Levant_PPNB
0.0 MAR_EN
0.0 RUS_Devils_Gate_Cave_N
0.0 WHG
0.0 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara

Target: TUR_Isparta_EBA
Distance: 2.8462% / 0.02846172
61.4 TUR_Barcin_N
16.6 GEO_CHG
13.8 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
8.2 Levant_PPNB
0.0 MAR_EN
0.0 RUS_Devils_Gate_Cave_N
0.0 WHG
0.0 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara

First of all, the samples from Isparta seem to be pretty close to those from Kaman-Kalehoyuk. Not only that, I never said that west Anatolian Turks are a definite mix of Central Anatolian Greeks and Turkomans, I even mentioned that they might have extra Phrygian-like admixture. I also never said that Ionian Greeks were similar to Cappadocians, Pontians, Western Armenians and Northern Mesopotamians (why would you even put all four in the same group?) In fact, I made the post to discuss what might have happened to the original Ionian Greeks, but if it came over wrongly, then I apologize.

Johnny ola
03-17-2021, 02:37 PM
Target: TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA
Distance: 2.7025% / 0.02702496
55.0 TUR_Barcin_N
17.2 GEO_CHG
14.2 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
13.6 Levant_PPNB
0.0 MAR_EN
0.0 RUS_Devils_Gate_Cave_N
0.0 WHG
0.0 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara

Target: TUR_Isparta_EBA
Distance: 2.8462% / 0.02846172
61.4 TUR_Barcin_N
16.6 GEO_CHG
13.8 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
8.2 Levant_PPNB
0.0 MAR_EN
0.0 RUS_Devils_Gate_Cave_N
0.0 WHG
0.0 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara

First of all, the samples from Isparta seem to be pretty close to those from Kaman-Kalehoyuk. Not only that, I never said that west Anatolian Turks are a definite mix of Central Anatolian Greeks and Turkomans, I even mentioned that they might have extra Phrygian-like admixture. I also never said that Ionian Greeks were similar to Cappadocians, Pontians, Western Armenians and Northern Mesopotamians (why would you even put all four in the same group?) In fact, I made the post to discuss what might have happened to the original Ionian Greeks, but if it came over wrongly, then I apologize.

So,you saying that Phrygians had balto-slavic drift?Those from the west coast have a shift to Greeks in general and to other balkaners.I don't think it has anything to do with Phrygians.Also,i did not mention specific that their drift to Greek islanders or Greeks in general has to do necessary with 'steppe' amounts.They also look somehow more EEF/Aegean shifted.That is why i am saying that the west coast was less west asian admixed compared to other parts of anatolia.And yes you are right that we don't know what impact Greek colonists had excatly to the west coast.The samples from 'Empuries2' are Greek colonists from modern Smyrna(Phocaea)...and their genes are pretty much Greek/Mycenaean like.

Btw here are the samples from bronze age anatolia(isparta and central anatolia).

The samples from Isparta have pretty much the highest Anatolia N levels.Its obvious there is an increase of west asian admixtures/components in the deepest anatolian areas/parts.The samples from Arslantepe even more.



Target: TUR_Isparta_EBA:I2683
Distance: 2.5175% / 0.02517509
57.8 TUR_Barcin_N
18.2 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
13.0 GEO_CHG
11.0 Levant_PPNB

Target: TUR_Isparta_EBA:I2499
Distance: 3.0152% / 0.03015231
55.8 TUR_Barcin_N
18.6 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
13.2 GEO_CHG
11.4 Levant_PPNB
1.0 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara

Target: TUR_Isparta_EBA:I2495
Distance: 2.0380% / 0.02037984
63.2 TUR_Barcin_N
16.6 GEO_CHG
11.0 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
9.2 Levant_PPNB


Target: TUR_Ovaoren_EBA:MA2213
Distance: 2.4011% / 0.02401063
52.4 TUR_Barcin_N
19.4 GEO_CHG
15.6 Levant_PPNB
12.4 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
0.2 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara

Target: TUR_Ovaoren_EBA:MA2212
Distance: 2.9190% / 0.02918993
46.0 TUR_Barcin_N
22.6 Levant_PPNB
17.4 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
12.2 GEO_CHG
1.8 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara

Target: TUR_Ovaoren_EBA:MA2210
Distance: 2.5863% / 0.02586333
48.2 TUR_Barcin_N
21.6 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
15.8 Levant_PPNB
14.2 GEO_CHG
0.2 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara




Target: TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA:MA2206
Distance: 3.0715% / 0.03071452
54.2 TUR_Barcin_N
16.2 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
16.0 GEO_CHG
13.6 Levant_PPNB

Target: TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA:MA2205
Distance: 3.2362% / 0.03236180
51.0 TUR_Barcin_N
17.4 GEO_CHG
16.6 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
15.0 Levant_PPNB

Target: TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA:MA2203
Distance: 2.2314% / 0.02231448
60.2 TUR_Barcin_N
19.4 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
10.6 Levant_PPNB
8.6 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
1.2 GEO_CHG

Target: TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA:MA2200
Distance: 2.0445% / 0.02044458
49.6 TUR_Barcin_N
19.2 GEO_CHG
16.6 Levant_PPNB
14.6 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N

Target: TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA_low_res:MA2208
Distance: 4.4121% / 0.04412058
50.6 TUR_Barcin_N
15.6 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
14.8 Levant_PPNB
13.2 GEO_CHG
5.8 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara

bovefex
03-17-2021, 02:44 PM
So,you saying that Phrygians had balto-slavic drift?Those from the west coast have a shift to Greeks in general and to other balkaners.I don't think it has anything to do with Phrygians.Also,i did not mention specific that their drift to Greek islanders or Greeks in general has to do necessary with 'steppe' amounts.They also look somehow more EEF/Aegean shifted.That is why i am saying that the west coast was less west asian admixed compared to other parts of anatolia.

I mean, assuming the original Phrygians came from the Balkans, wouldn't they most likely have been rich in EEF and Steppe, which might cause a shift towards the Balkans, right? And I do not have enough knowledge about the Balto-Slavic drift, so I can't make any comments on that.

Greekscholar
03-17-2021, 03:02 PM
Here are some links that could be of use. It's been awhile since I read the selections about Western Anatolia, but at least one of the two authors describe it as virtually abandoned outside of urban areas. These links are right to sections about Fourni/Ikaria/Samos, but both books should be free on-line through these links.

https://books.google.com/books/about/Travels_in_Various_Countries_of_Europe_A.html?id=L kZEAAAAIAAJ&printsec=frontcover&source=kp_read_button#v=snippet&q=samos&f=false

https://books.google.com/books?id=vOo_IT9-jF4C&q=fourni#v=snippet&q=nicaria&f=false

Johnny ola
03-17-2021, 03:27 PM
I mean, assuming the original Phrygians came from the Balkans, wouldn't they most likely have been rich in EEF and Steppe, which might cause a shift towards the Balkans, right? And I do not have enough knowledge about the Balto-Slavic drift, so I can't make any comments on that.

Balto-Slavic drift its not the same with the steppe that Phrygians and other IE Anatolian/Paleobalkan populations brought in southeast eu and west asia.Its a specific drift...you can read more about it on eurogenes blog.Such drift exists pretty much in the majority of southeast euros(Greeks inclunding).

lacreme
03-18-2021, 09:45 AM
Have you created a phased kit for Chris' mom yet? If not, I would recommend it. Using the phased kit would help eliminate false matches. It cuts down on the matches overall because it would be a phase file, but you always have her full kit to compare back to if you find a lead from the more limited phased data.

Yes I had originally created a phased kit for his mom when he only had his myheritage kit . Now that he has a kit made from the allSNPs combined file from WGSextract I will try to convince him to pay for one more month on gedmatch so as to create a new one.
Though to tell you the truth I don't know how much it will help...their list of matches is still filled with people of unknown background with no family trees, the only exception being people with cretan heritage for obvious reasons (their surnames :biggrin1: ) .

The only lead that I managed to find is unfortunately only on familytreedna and genetically distant enough that the only reason I'm still considering it is some strange coincidences ( ? )

lacreme
03-19-2021, 04:13 PM
My friend's Yfull analysis (SNPs+STRs ) completed !
For now he remains at I-Y16808* , along with a 19th century Pomak from Kochan.
Can anyone help me decipher his results ?
Also, when will the Age estimation choice be available ?

About his Mtdna, he is currently placed on H13a2b3* . Any help on this too will be appreciated
Thanks

dosas
03-19-2021, 05:02 PM
My friend's Yfull analysis (SNPs+STRs ) completed !
For now he remains at I-Y16808* , along with a 19th century Pomak from Kochan.
Can anyone help me decipher his results ?
Also, when will the Age estimation choice be available ?

About his Mtdna, he is currently placed on H13a2b3* . Any help on this too will be appreciated
Thanks


The age estimation is 2007 ybp, it looks like both of you will have to wait for a more recent match for further downstreams.

losAntonis
03-19-2021, 09:06 PM
My friend's Yfull analysis (SNPs+STRs ) completed !
For now he remains at I-Y16808* , along with a 19th century Pomak from Kochan.
Can anyone help me decipher his results ?
Also, when will the Age estimation choice be available ?

About his Mtdna, he is currently placed on H13a2b3* . Any help on this too will be appreciated
Thanks

With some luck he will get the agd estimation with next tree update. If not, after the next.
Already joined the Greek project at YFull?

lacreme
03-19-2021, 10:16 PM
With some luck he will get the agd estimation with next tree update. If not, after the next.
Already joined the Greek project at YFull?

Currently requested to join.
If by joining his data (SNPs , STRs etc... ) is visible I would be grateful if you could help decipher the results.

losAntonis
03-20-2021, 12:56 PM
Currently requested to join.
If by joining his data (SNPs , STRs etc... ) is visible I would be grateful if you could help decipher the results.

Will have a close look later, but on first look it seems he will form a new clade with the man from Bulgaria.
More by pm or I tell him directly via Facebook. You can tell him, that he can write me a pm at fb.

lacreme
03-20-2021, 01:23 PM
Will have a close look later, but on first look it seems he will form a new clade with the man from Bulgaria.
More by pm or I tell him directly via Facebook. You can tell him, that he can write me a pm at fb.

I will tell him to send you a message directly at facebook, thanks !

Btw, judging from the fact that under this subclade (Y16808 in general ) other than my friend there is also this Pomak, a Ukrainian from Dnipro and a couple of Swedes from central/southern Sweden ...
The most probable connection is the Ostrogoths/Moesian/Thracian Goths . It fits perfectly.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thracian_Goths
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%81rheimar
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/26/Gothic_raids_in_the_3rd_century.jpg

eastara
03-22-2021, 05:44 AM
I will tell him to send you a message directly at facebook, thanks !

Btw, judging from the fact that under this subclade (Y16808 in general ) other than my friend there is also this Pomak, a Ukrainian from Dnipro and a couple of Swedes from central/southern Sweden ...
The most probable connection is the Ostrogoths/Moesian/Thracian Goths . It fits perfectly.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thracian_Goths
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%81rheimar
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/26/Gothic_raids_in_the_3rd_century.jpg

There is one more Bulgarian found with I-Y16808*, his STR were tested in an Italian scientific study. He tested further with YSEQ and was confirmed I-Y16808, negative for all known subbranches. He is from the village of Golitsa, North Eastern Bulgaria and the so called "Vaykovtsi" , who were considered from the few old settlers in that region. However the Greek find increases my suspicions that they are no Old Bulgars, but also migrants somewhere from the South Western Balkans.
Finding this branch in a Pomak was a big surprise a few years ago, as it was classified as "Ultra Norse" based on STR markers and was exclusively Scandinavian.
Where is your friend's the male line from?

lacreme
03-22-2021, 08:53 AM
There is one more Bulgarian found with I-Y16808*, his STR were tested in an Italian scientific study. He tested further with YSEQ and was confirmed I-Y16808, negative for all known subbranches. He is from the village of Golitsa, North Eastern Bulgaria and the so called "Vaykovtsi" , who were considered from the few old settlers in that region. However the Greek find increases my suspicions that they are no Old Bulgars, but also migrants somewhere from the South Western Balkans.
Finding this branch in a Pomak was a big surprise a few years ago, as it was classified as "Ultra Norse" based on STR markers and was exclusively Scandinavian.
Where is your friend's the male line from?

That's very interesting! Could someone convince him to upload to yfull too ?

I have my friend's permission to share his results from Yfull ( SNPs, STRs and everything else ) so if you need anything just send me a pm. The only think I need in return is to share with me whatever findings from his data.

My friend's male line is originally from Gaziemir (back then known as Seydikoy ) in Izmir, Turkey.
As far as he knows they were there since at least the early 19th century but being mostly farmers, If I recall correctly, I think you can safely add a century or more.
On a list of refugees from Asia minor published in 1928, other than some of my friend's ancestors there is also a mention of a couple of people sharing the same surname but being originally from Ephesus instead. Their relation to them, if any, is currently unknown.

eastara
03-22-2021, 12:07 PM
That's very interesting! Could someone convince him to upload to yfull too ?

I have my friend's permission to share his results from Yfull ( SNPs, STRs and everything else ) so if you need anything just send me a pm. The only think I need in return is to share with me whatever findings from his data.

My friend's male line is originally from Gaziemir (back then known as Seydikoy ) in Izmir, Turkey.
As far as he knows they were there since at least the early 19th century but being mostly farmers, If I recall correctly, I think you can safely add a century or more.
On a list of refugees from Asia minor published in 1928, other than some of my friend's ancestors there is also a mention of a couple of people sharing the same surname but being originally from Ephesus instead. Their relation to them, if any, is currently unknown.

This person was sponsored with the YSEQ panel only, and can't be uploaded to YFULL.
In fact there are 2 Pomaks from this branch, but they are possibly related, you can see them in the Bulgarian DNA project. Almost all Pomaks there are sponsored by a single person, who tested his relatives and others from a ​few neighbouring villages.
I know the Bulgarian STR results, but he was tested with YFILER.
DYS391 DYS389I DYS439 DYS389II DYS438 DYS437 DYS19 DYS392 DYS393 DYS390 DYS385 DYS456 DYS458 Y_GATA_H4 DYS448 DYS635 DYS481 DYS533 DYS570 DYS576 DYS460 DYF3871 DYS449 DYS518 DYS627
10 12 11 28 10 16 14 11 13 23 14-14 14 15 11 19 21 24 11 21 17 10 37-39 28 39 20

He is quite close to the Pomak, only a few differences in the matching markers. My theory is this is an Eastern Viking/Varangian connection. They were active in 9-11c in the Eastern Roman Empire. Further proof is the Ukrainians, as the Varangians also found the old Kievan Rus. Less likely to be a Gothic connection as it is missing in Central Europe.
Probably the more common on the Balkans P109 branch has such origin. Haplogroup I1 was found in a Roman cemetery from Viminacium from 5th century, when there were already many Goths in the Roman army.

lacreme
03-22-2021, 02:05 PM
This person was sponsored with the YSEQ panel only, and can't be uploaded to YFULL.
In fact there are 2 Pomaks from this branch, but they are possibly related, you can see them in the Bulgarian DNA project. Almost all Pomaks there are sponsored by a single person, who tested his relatives and others from a ​few neighbouring villages.
I know the Bulgarian STR results, but he was tested with YFILER.
DYS391 DYS389I DYS439 DYS389II DYS438 DYS437 DYS19 DYS392 DYS393 DYS390 DYS385 DYS456 DYS458 Y_GATA_H4 DYS448 DYS635 DYS481 DYS533 DYS570 DYS576 DYS460 DYF3871 DYS449 DYS518 DYS627
10 12 11 28 10 16 14 11 13 23 14-14 14 15 11 19 21 24 11 21 17 10 37-39 28 39 20

He is quite close to the Pomak, only a few differences in the matching markers. My theory is this is an Eastern Viking/Varangian connection. They were active in 9-11c in the Eastern Roman Empire. Further proof is the Ukrainians, as the Varangians also found the old Kievan Rus. Less likely to be a Gothic connection as it is missing in Central Europe.
Probably the more common on the Balkans P109 branch has such origin. Haplogroup I1 was found in a Roman cemetery from Viminacium from 5th century, when there were already many Goths in the Roman army.

Here, my friend's STR results though the analysis is not fully completed
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1rCyBqfjQ8uEfF7Us6Kp7nyPJSew3AQpR/view?usp=sharing

Well, according to some maps the Varangian trade routes did follow the same routes to reach the Eastern Roman empire as the Goths before them more or less.
But from the fact that in the Y16808 subclade there is also at least one Ukrainian from Dnipro (where a capital of the Goths once existed ) , that there were Gothic populations and permament ? settlements in the Balkans (Thracian/Moesian Goths ) and that they also passed through Asia Minor and the Aegean islands (see the links/photos below ) makes me to be more inclined to them personally. There is also the TMRCA of the clades downstream.

Also, Golitsa seems to be quite close to ancient Marcianopolis... A city often targeted during their raids through the centuries.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/5e/GothicInvasions250-251-en.svg/500px-GothicInvasions250-251-en.svg.png
https://weaponsandwarfare.files.wordpress.com/2019/08/gothicinvasions_267-269-en.svg_.png
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/26/Gothic_raids_in_the_3rd_century.jpg/800px-Gothic_raids_in_the_3rd_century.jpg
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gothic_War_(376%E2%80%93382)
and more...

eastara
03-22-2021, 10:59 PM
Yes, there were definitely Goths in what is now Bulgaria both as Roman mercenaries and settlers around the Danube limes. However Y16808 is not present North of the Danube in Central Europe, where the Goths came from.
Now the question is if your friend's ancestors are old settlers in Western Anatolia, or they came more recently from the Balkans. There were even Bulgarian peasants settling there in 18-19c. not counting the merchant colonies in the bigger cities like Izmir and Bursa. Most Anatolian Bulgarians came back to Bulgaria after it became independent in 1878, the peasants particularly traumatised by the raids of the newly settled Tartars and Cherkess, who have fled the Balkans after the Russian-Turkish war.

lacreme
03-23-2021, 02:47 PM
Yes, there were definitely Goths in what is now Bulgaria both as Roman mercenaries and settlers around the Danube limes. However Y16808 is not present North of the Danube in Central Europe, where the Goths came from.
Now the question is if your friend's ancestors are old settlers in Western Anatolia, or they came more recently from the Balkans. There were even Bulgarian peasants settling there in 18-19c. not counting the merchant colonies in the bigger cities like Izmir and Bursa. Most Anatolian Bulgarians came back to Bulgaria after it became independent in 1878, the peasants particularly traumatised by the raids of the newly settled Tartars and Cherkess, who have fled the Balkans after the Russian-Turkish war.

Who knows, only time and more samples will tell. Though if my friend and the Pomak from Kochan really end up forming a subclade together, the presence on Yfull of the Bulgarian from Golitsa and his ultimate placement on the tree would help clearing some things up.

The settlement of Seydikoy,where my friend's ancestors lived was almost exclusively Greek in the decades preceding the 1922 massacre of the Asia Minor Greeks and the population exchange that followed. The villages around it were Turkish, Greek or Mixed and the total population of the whole municipality was around 19000 of which 12-13000 Greeks and the rest mostly Turks. If there was any Bulgarian presence on this specific area of the region of Izmir I don't know, though the presence of Hellenised Bulgarians is very improbable considering the fact that Greek presence in the area is documented for the first time too recently in the past (only in the second half of the 18th century) for such events to take place. Before that period travellers only mentioned some Turkish settlements in the area.
https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=el&tl=en&u=https://mikrasiatis.gr/sevntikioi-to-leventoxori-tis-smyrnis/

td120
03-23-2021, 08:13 PM
It might not be related to the specific case ,but on the humble Bulgarian presence in Izmir:

"In the cities of Asia Minor, most Bulgarians settled for a longer period of time or permanent residence were in Izmir (Smyrna). Before the liberation of Bulgaria, this city was the most significant Bulgarian urban colony in Asia Minor.


Izmir, Turkey's largest port city in the Aegean, was also the largest city in Asia Minor, a bustling commercial, industrial and cultural center, and the center of a rich agricultural area. In the 19th century, it had more than 200,000 inhabitants: Greeks and Turks, followed by Jews, Armenians and Europeans. There were so many Greeks that the Turks called the city "Gyavur Izmir" (city of the infidels).



The Bulgarians, an insignificant ethnic group compared to other nationalities, were mainly small traders, grocers, craftsmen, abadjii, construction and general workers, and on the outskirts of the city shepherds, dairies, agricultural workers, ratai. In the French quarter of the city there was a Slavic convent and chapel, in which on some holidays the service was performed in Church Slavonic.


It is estimated that the Bulgarians in Izmir numbered about a thousand people. After the liberation of Bulgaria, almost all returned to the old, now free homeland. The few others shared the tragic fate of the Greeks in the catastrophe of the Greek army in Asia Minor, defeated by the Kemalid Turkish army. Some managed to escape by ship to Greece, others died. After 1925, no Bulgarians remained in Izmir."

D.Shishmanov

and

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Konstantin_Fotinov

eastara
03-24-2021, 12:42 AM
I am not implying that your fiend is a recent Hellenised Bulgarian, only that his ancestors may have come from the Balkans during Ottoman times. As far as I know, there was constant movement of Greeks between Western Anatolia and Balkan mainland during Byzantine and Ottoman times. West Anatolian Greeks are not much different than the Balkan, compared to the Pontic, for example.
Regarding the Bulgarian Pomak, on the FTDNA block tree he is separated from the Scandinavian by 18 private SNPs and is coming from the root of Y16808. That means they really split around 2000 ago. But this does not mean he is not a direct descendent from a Varangian in more recent times. It is possible that this branch has died out in Scandinavia, or not found yet. The number of Big Ys even in Western countries is too small to rule out such connection.
43987

lacreme
03-24-2021, 10:37 PM
I am not implying that your fiend is a recent Hellenised Bulgarian, only that his ancestors may have come from the Balkans during Ottoman times. As far as I know, there was constant movement of Greeks between Western Anatolia and Balkan mainland during Byzantine and Ottoman times. West Anatolian Greeks are not much different than the Balkan, compared to the Pontic, for example.
Regarding the Bulgarian Pomak, on the FTDNA block tree he is separated from the Scandinavian by 18 private SNPs and is coming from the root of Y16808. That means they really split around 2000 ago. But this does not mean he is not a direct descendent from a Varangian in more recent times. It is possible that this branch has died out in Scandinavia, or not found yet. The number of Big Ys even in Western countries is too small to rule out such connection.
43987

That's ok, I understood your point. I may not have had word it correctly but I only wanted to tackle this case too. Anyway, you are right that West Anatolian Greeks moved there from anywhere really. In the site I linked in my previous comment it is mentioned that the Greek settlers of this specific settlement flocked there mostly from Samos, Cyclades, Central Greece and Peloponnese. Unfortunately any further info/records about the roots of my friend's family is long lost...

The only thing that's left is a couple of family legends (which further complicate things, read further down) and my friend's surname which while it's very rare and distinct it's a word (an adjective) that could have easily been "acquired" by/given to different families in multiple time periods and places and used as a surname under the right conditions...

To be clearer and better understand how messy is finding any amount of information in cases like this, you can read below what my friend managed to gather over the years.

His family
-All the people sharing the same surname currently having online presence and/or known phone numbers are confirmed or known family members.
-There is also a branch based in Crete having a completely unrelated surname ending in the typical Cretan suffix "-akis" . They switched to it after coming to Greece for personal reasons... Here is the first twist though as according to a family legend THIS was the original family surname of the whole family and that branch merely reverted to using it again.

Probable connection
-A family having a surname ending in "-idis" which supposedly is also connected to my friend's paternal line... ANOTHER family legend is that what I wrote for the Cretans above, about the original family name, is applicable to THIS surname instead...

Same surname but unknow connection
-A family for which some old records available online show them having presence in Phocis (Central Greece) during the late 19th century. Some descendants of them could and probably still exist in that region but even one confirmed as such and still living could't be located. If they were an offshoot of my friend's family, an old part of the family still remaining in their "original" homeland or completely unrelated people is not known.
-A couple of people mentioned in a list of Asia Minor refugees written in 1928. Their listed place of origin was not Seydikoy or Izmir in general but a village close to Ephesus instead. Could be relatives, could be unrelated...
-A family mentioned among others as living somewhere around the area of ancient Miletus in a 13th century document. Virtually impossible to find anything else about them from that far back in time.

...and that's all really...

lacreme
03-27-2021, 11:49 PM
An interesting project about Peloponnese

https://www.settlements-peloponnese1821.eu/

TonyC
03-28-2021, 03:31 PM
An interesting project about Peloponnese

https://www.settlements-peloponnese1821.eu/

Need to get this. Curious about origins of two grandparents (from Morea) one who I’m surmising had a genetic connection to Southern Albania and another to Epirus.

Johnny ola
03-28-2021, 10:25 PM
Need to get this. Curious about origins of two grandparents (from Morea) one who I’m surmising had a genetic connection to Southern Albania and another to Epirus.

It would be nice to unlock deeper your yDNA lineage.?Have you tested with ftdna or something?You can try https://www.nevgen.org/.

MMerlin
03-31-2021, 09:19 PM
Does anyone know what these samples are in the G25 datasheet?


GRC_Cycladic_EBA:Kou01,0.117238,0.179749,-0.017348,-0.086887,0.024928,-0.03765,-0.002585,-0.006692,0.011453,0.054671,0.00682,0.013338,-0.018583,0.01445,-0.026465,-0.014452,0.004433,0.003294,0.010182,-0.014132,-0.006613,0.000124,-0.003451,0.00735,0.000599
GRC_Cycladic_EBA:Kou03,0.114961,0.160454,-0.02489,-0.075259,0.011694,-0.033188,-0.00235,-0.003461,0.003886,0.042643,0.00682,0.014387,-0.022745,-0.002477,-0.029858,0.005171,0.024251,0.001774,0.009679,-0.009254,-0.012353,-0.001237,-0.000739,-0.003615,-0.005389
GRC_Helladic_EBA:Mik15,0.112685,0.179749,-0.000754,-0.08721,0.02739,-0.032351,-0.003995,-0.005769,0.028224,0.06761,0.002111,0.010641,-0.020812,0.005643,-0.030944,-0.021347,0.009127,0.003927,0.00729,-0.014757,-0.007237,0.000742,-0.000986,0.007953,-0.005269
GRC_Helladic_MBA:Log02,0.118376,0.153345,0.018479,-0.022933,0.028621,-0.01506,-0.00094,-0.003461,0.0045,0.022051,0.00065,0.007044,-0.016501,0.00055,-0.014522,-0.013126,-0.006519,0.002154,0.004022,-0.003377,-0.009733,-0.000371,0.009244,0.001807,0.000838
GRC_Helladic_MBA:Log04,0.122929,0.14319,0.026776,-0.000969,0.016003,-0.005578,-0.007755,-0.003,-0.006749,0.004374,0.002923,0.015586,-0.010852,0.001376,-0.004343,-0.012729,-0.006258,-0.003801,0.010433,-0.013882,-0.013476,0.005564,0.006902,0.008917,-0.005029

peloponnesian
04-01-2021, 07:56 AM
Does anyone know what these samples are in the G25 datasheet?

They're from a paper that's not been published yet.

Northern Adriatic
04-05-2021, 11:44 AM
Sorry for the intrusion, but scoring as closest distant populations Thessaly, Peloponnese and Central Macedonia before any Italian population we might say that I am almost Greek!

When I tried to model Italian populations and myself I have some trouble picking the right Greek sample. I do think that the Italian cline has 3-4 main population/events which brought to its ethnogenesis and one of the most significant is, in my opinion, Ancient Greece.

Now, we do have Minoan and Mycenean samples, and the Myceneans certainly had an influence on Italy, but I do believe that most of the Hellenic genetic (and cultural actually) influence came much later and I expect the genetic of Magna Graecia and the Hellenic World during such times (from the 8th century BC to the 4th centry CE basically) to be very different and more 'diverse' (more similar to what we see as Roman Imperial samples).

However, I don't find any sample which seems to confirm my 'theory'. Is there a lack of samples from that age or am I just wrong?

peloponnesian
04-05-2021, 12:53 PM
Sorry for the intrusion, but scoring as closest distant populations Thessaly, Peloponnese and Central Macedonia before any Italian population we might say that I am almost Greek!

When I tried to model Italian populations and myself I have some trouble picking the right Greek sample. I do think that the Italian cline has 3-4 main population/events which brought to its ethnogenesis and one of the most significant is, in my opinion, Ancient Greece.

Now, we do have Minoan and Mycenean samples, and the Myceneans certainly had an influence on Italy, but I do believe that most of the Hellenic genetic (and cultural actually) influence came much later and I expect the genetic of Magna Graecia and the Hellenic World during such times (from the 8th century BC to the 4th centry CE basically) to be very different and more 'diverse' (more similar to what we see as Roman Imperial samples).

However, I don't find any sample which seems to confirm my 'theory'. Is there a lack of samples from that age or am I just wrong?

Michalis and the other guys are more knowledgeable on the subject but my impression is we just don't have enough samples yet.

cybernautic
04-05-2021, 01:11 PM
Sorry for the intrusion, but scoring as closest distant populations Thessaly, Peloponnese and Central Macedonia before any Italian population we might say that I am almost Greek!

When I tried to model Italian populations and myself I have some trouble picking the right Greek sample. I do think that the Italian cline has 3-4 main population/events which brought to its ethnogenesis and one of the most significant is, in my opinion, Ancient Greece.

Now, we do have Minoan and Mycenean samples, and the Myceneans certainly had an influence on Italy, but I do believe that most of the Hellenic genetic (and cultural actually) influence came much later and I expect the genetic of Magna Graecia and the Hellenic World during such times (from the 8th century BC to the 4th centry CE basically) to be very different and more 'diverse' (more similar to what we see as Roman Imperial samples).

However, I don't find any sample which seems to confirm my 'theory'. Is there a lack of samples from that age or am I just wrong?

I'd be interested to see something about the Etruscan genetics in this context.

They were related to Minoans,Mycanaeans ?

Johnny ola
04-05-2021, 01:20 PM
Sorry for the intrusion, but scoring as closest distant populations Thessaly, Peloponnese and Central Macedonia before any Italian population we might say that I am almost Greek!

When I tried to model Italian populations and myself I have some trouble picking the right Greek sample. I do think that the Italian cline has 3-4 main population/events which brought to its ethnogenesis and one of the most significant is, in my opinion, Ancient Greece.

Now, we do have Minoan and Mycenean samples, and the Myceneans certainly had an influence on Italy, but I do believe that most of the Hellenic genetic (and cultural actually) influence came much later and I expect the genetic of Magna Graecia and the Hellenic World during such times (from the 8th century BC to the 4th centry CE basically) to be very different and more 'diverse' (more similar to what we see as Roman Imperial samples).

However, I don't find any sample which seems to confirm my 'theory'. Is there a lack of samples from that age or am I just wrong?

Post your average G25 plss.

Johnny ola
04-05-2021, 01:28 PM
I'd be interested to see something about the Etruscan genetics in this context.

They were related to Minoans,Mycanaeans ?

No.We have samples from them and they are not like Minoans/Mycenaeans.

Northern Adriatic
04-05-2021, 02:08 PM
Post your average G25 plss.
Here are my coordinates, if that's what you meant!

NorthernAdriatic_scaled,0.119514,0.150298,0.012068 ,-0.023256,0.020004,-0.002789,0.00047,-0.002769,0.003886,0.020775,0.000812,0.000599,0.000 149,0,-0.007329,0.005967,0.008605,0.001774,0.009679,-0.004877,-0.001996,0.005193,0.008874,-0.004458,-0.015927

Johnny ola
04-05-2021, 02:15 PM
Here are my coordinates, if that's what you meant!

NorthernAdriatic_scaled,0.119514,0.150298,0.012068 ,-0.023256,0.020004,-0.002789,0.00047,-0.002769,0.003886,0.020775,0.000812,0.000599,0.000 149,0,-0.007329,0.005967,0.008605,0.001774,0.009679,-0.004877,-0.001996,0.005193,0.008874,-0.004458,-0.015927


I don't understand why you are confused?Your are northeast Italian right?

You have Balkan/Slavic mix.It is normal you coming close with Greek mainlanders.

Northern Adriatic
04-05-2021, 02:22 PM
I'd be interested to see something about the Etruscan genetics in this context.

They were related to Minoans,Mycanaeans ?
From what we have seen (we have, I believe, two samples + outliers) they seem to plot closely to Italic populations (such as latini). We definitely would need to see more samples, also from Osco-Umbri (or Umbro-Sabelli) and Veneti. And why not, Italian Gauls, and of course from Magna Graecia (which is partially what I am asking here, although I am talking about the fatherland but I would assume Magna Graecia by Roman conquer times to be very much like core Greece).
We shoudl get a paper soon on Daunians, which should be of Illyrian origins but may have mixed with Italic populations (and also reached Ardea from which we have 2 samples).

Eventually any discussion will always end up with a big cry for more ancient samples:)

Northern Adriatic
04-05-2021, 02:24 PM
I don't understand why you are confused?Your are northeast Italian right?

You have Balkan/Slavic mix.It is normal you coming close with Greek mainlanders.
1/2 only, the other 1/2 is a mix of various areas under the Po river (but not more south than Abruzzo) and mostly on the Adriatic sea.
I am not so much confused about myself, it is mostly a request for modelling purposes. I have the dream of making a model which could work well for all Italian populations/samples, and I believe it cannot really be done until we don't have a proper Hellenic sample :)

Johnny ola
04-05-2021, 02:30 PM
1/2 only, the other 1/2 is a mix of various areas under the Po river (but not more south than Abruzzo) and mostly on the Adriatic sea.
I am not so much confused about myself, it is mostly a request for modelling purposes. I have the dream of making a model which could work well for all Italian populations/samples, and I believe it cannot really be done until we don't have a proper Hellenic sample :)

You have a Germanic haplogroup if i i am not mistaken.On the other hand your autosomal is Italic but its obvious you have a balkan/slav ancestor because NorthEast Italy it has balkan-southeast european mix.The fact that you plot closer to Greeks it is because you sharing similar components pretty much(high EEF+Steppe).To model yourself you can use various samples from medieval times,Italic-Hellenic samples from BA/IA etc.But indeed we need more samples from Greece,Balkans etc.

Northern Adriatic
04-05-2021, 03:07 PM
You have a Germanic haplogroup if i i am not mistaken.On the other hand your autosomal is Italic but its obvious you have a balkan/slav ancestor because NorthEast Italy it has balkan-southeast european mix.The fact that you plot closer to Greeks it is because you sharing similar components pretty much(high EEF+Steppe).To model yourself you can use various samples from medieval times,Italic-Hellenic samples from BA/IA etc.But indeed we need more samples from Greece,Balkans etc.
The weird thing is that I can't seem to model myself with a 'real hellenic' sample, and I believe the same happen for most of the Italian samples I test.
For example my coordinates seem to highly prefer ITA_Prenestini_tribe_IA_o to any Mycenean, Empuries 2, Minoans and even Ashkelon IA1 (the last one I thought could be a better proxy of Hellenic admixture which contributed to the ethnogenesis of the Italian modern population). It's a shame though that I have to use a mixed proxy instead of having a better 'original' sample to use in the model.

Johnny ola
04-05-2021, 03:18 PM
The weird thing is that I can't seem to model myself with a 'real hellenic' sample, and I believe the same happen for most of the Italian samples I test.
For example my coordinates seem to highly prefer ITA_Prenestini_tribe_IA_o to any Mycenean, Empuries 2, Minoans and even Ashkelon IA1 (the last one I thought could be a better proxy of Hellenic admixture which contributed to the ethnogenesis of the Italian modern population). It's a shame though that I have to use a mixed proxy instead of having a better 'original' sample to use in the model.

Have you tried with hun avar Slozad samples? Use a sample with balto-slavic drift, use a medieval germanic or the Italian samples From medieval times. You know that both Italics and Greeks are not the same With their forefathers after some time right? You will need more northern shifted samples to play as being yourself northeast Italian. But You will prolly need Something West asian as Well. YOU have some limited Rome Imperial influences in your autosomal.

Northern Adriatic
04-05-2021, 03:42 PM
Have you tried with hun avar Slozad samples? Use a sample with balto-slavic drift, use a medieval germanic or the Italian samples From medieval times. You know that both Italics and Greeks are not the same With their forefathers after some time right? You will need more northern shifted samples to play as being yourself northeast Italian. But You will prolly need Something West asian as Well. YOU have some limited Rome Imperial influences in your autosomal.
Absolutely, I do know that. Otherwise probably Italians would be plotting very differenty. That's exactly the reason why I am trying to make a quick model from the IA times which takes into account the different components.

Well, for the time being I plot east of central Italy (south of Tuscany slightly north of Marche and Umbria but closer to Greek Mainland than to them) so is no really a NorthEast Italian plotting (which is fine as 50% of my ancestry is from other areas such as Marche, Romagna, Abruzzo, Rome). I would have still imagined to plot a bit more north but that's not a big issue and I will see if with other raw data this will be confirmed or changed. For the eastern part I agree. I do find some great fits when I start using Hun Avar Szolad but also Scythian and Pre-Scythian. However they bring me a bit too north and often require some more levant and eventually all the IA Italian samples are gone and I think we are in a school example of overfitting. For example I seem to work if modelled as 36% Isparta, 34.5% Beli Breyag and 29.5% Srubnaya... but that's just overfitting.

But I don't want to bore you all with my modelling attempts on myself, I was mostly asking becuase I am learning how to model populations and the main rules that I am trying to follow are: 3 to 6 reference populations, which make historical sense, avoiding overfitting.
It is a bit problematic because when you put Germanic populations or Balkan/Slav population eventually you will need Levant and you go straight to overfitting.

That's why I believe we'll need a Magna Graecia or Hellenic type of sample, which I guess is going to be a mix of Mycenean like + admixture from the whole Greek-speaking world.
That thing, if I have to guess, would be a key component which all Italians have in their DNA (together with Italic, Germanic, Balkan, Gaul and maybe others), obviously stronger in the South and weaker in the North, but common to all of us (and, of course, to all Greeks as well). :)

peloponnesian
04-05-2021, 05:17 PM
The weird thing is that I can't seem to model myself with a 'real hellenic' sample, and I believe the same happen for most of the Italian samples I test.
For example my coordinates seem to highly prefer ITA_Prenestini_tribe_IA_o to any Mycenean, Empuries 2, Minoans and even Ashkelon IA1 (the last one I thought could be a better proxy of Hellenic admixture which contributed to the ethnogenesis of the Italian modern population). It's a shame though that I have to use a mixed proxy instead of having a better 'original' sample to use in the model.

ITA_Prenestini_tribe_IA_o has a more eastern profile than the rest of the Italic Iron Age samples, if I remember correctly.

Pretty much all the Balkan groups that formed after the migration from the steppe are similar to each other on G25 and that's why samples like Helladic_MBA appear surprisingly similar autosomally to modern Greeks from Thessaly, Macedonia and Peloponnese. The question is why some Italians like yourself clearly prefer the Balkan steppe source rather than Bell Beaker. Has this been clarified by the indoeuropeanists? (honest question, I'm not well-read on IE matters)

Northern Adriatic
04-05-2021, 06:00 PM
ITA_Prenestini_tribe_IA_o has a more eastern profile than the rest of the Italic Iron Age samples, if I remember correctly.

Pretty much all the Balkan groups that formed after the migration from the steppe are similar to each other on G25 and that's why samples like Helladic_MBA appear surprisingly similar autosomally to modern Greeks from Thessaly, Macedonia and Peloponnese. The question is why some Italians like yourself clearly prefer the Balkan steppe source rather than Bell Beaker. Has this been clarified by the indoeuropeanists? (honest question, I'm not well-read on IE matters)
I don't know but that's actually a very good point. I also don't know if I am an outlier or that's normal.

For example: https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?16835-Ancient-G25-World-Neolithic-Eneolithic-Calculator&p=761124#post761124

I find myself very often in calculators sharing some aspects with the sample Italy Northeast (which is Friuli Venezia Giulia and probably has Austrian, Slovenian and Croatian admixture together with Venetian and old Friulian), having though less Steppe (around 32% vs 38%) and less WHG (around 3.3 vs 7.3) I am always brought southeast by other components. That's why eventually I have this weird mix of almost Germanic-Pre-slavic-WestAsian (and Italic components eaten by the other components) which probably makes me cluster pretty well with Mainland Greece :)

lacreme
04-06-2021, 08:10 PM
In a facebook group called "DNA Greek | Interpreting DNA Results" there is the following post :

"TRANSLATION OF OTTOMAN CENSUSES
Hi. My name is George Kalavesios and I have been working with the translation of ottoman tax cadastres for years. The ottoman tax cadastres are censuses of the ottoman empire in their conquered lands. In them the names and surnames of the inhabitants and the taxes the village was obliged to pay were registered. I have got in my possession the tax cadastres of Peloponnese TT80 of the year 1514, ΤΤ 560 of the year 1566 and TT603/TT605/TT607 of the year 1584. I also have the cadastre TT10 of the year 1454 which is about the greatest part of present day Thessaly, and Eurytania, the part of the cadastre TT35(1509) about Attica, and the cadastre TT75 of 1519 of the Sanjak of Kallipolis ( Gelibolu) in which the islands of Thasos, Samothraki, Limnos and Imvros are included. Those ones are not translated but I can translate them. I also have to notice that I have the already translated and published cadastres about Servia in Macedonia, Lesvos island ( 1548) , Euboea island (1474) and Kesaria ( Kayseri) of the years 1484, 1570 and 1642, The ones about Kesaria have not been very successfully translated considering the christian names in them. If anyone is interested in this kind of information please contact me in messenger. You may also share this. P.S. I do not do genealogy. There is no way for anyone to do genealogy by using ottoman cadastres. It is absolutely impossible because of the enormous mobility of the population and the frequent changing of surnames back then. All I can do is translate all the information about your ancestral village almost 500 years ago."

I didn't ask for his ultimate plans , whether he intends to do a complete translation and gradually release them or not, but right now he is thankfully releasing info according to the requests.

peloponnesian
04-07-2021, 08:26 AM
My cousin contacted him a few months ago, he's a bit expensive but we did find some interesting stuff. Just to give you an idea what to expect, we asked about one of the villages our grandparents were from in Argolis and he gave us the list from 1584. Almost all the surnames are different than the village surnames from the post-1821 censuses and which still exist today. So for some areas there was population turnover and/or surname changes.

cybernautic
04-07-2021, 08:47 AM
No.We have samples from them and they are not like Minoans/Mycenaeans.

Like what are they?

lacreme
04-07-2021, 10:40 AM
My cousin contacted him a few months ago, he's a bit expensive but we did find some interesting stuff. Just to give you an idea what to expect, we asked about one of the villages our grandparents were from in Argolis and he gave us the list from 1584. Almost all the surnames are different than the village surnames from the post-1821 censuses and which still exist today. So for some areas there was population turnover and/or surname changes.

How much did it cost ? Did it was per single or total searches ? I've asked him for 2 single surnames and for the total population of 2 villages..

peloponnesian
04-07-2021, 10:56 AM
How much did it cost ? Did it was per single or total searches ? I've asked him for 2 single surnames and for the total population of 2 villages..

My cousin asked for all the names from a single village (around 60) and it cost 200 euros. Not sure if he's changed his fee since then. Hope I'm not breaking any forum rules lol

lacreme
04-07-2021, 11:03 AM
My cousin asked for all the names from a single village (around 60) and it cost 200 euros. Not sure if he's changed his fee since then. Hope I'm not breaking any forum rules lol

Ouch! Well then.. I should withdraw my request..

Johnny ola
04-07-2021, 01:06 PM
Like what are they?

EEF+Steppe+WHG.

They were beakers mixed with Italic(EEF/WHG) populations.

Michalis Moriopoulos
04-07-2021, 02:57 PM
So some potentially exciting news for me: there is a local older Greek restaurateur who seems to recollect my father. From what he can remember, my father might actually have come from Leros or Ikaria. We'll see if any more light can come out of this.

Greekscholar
04-07-2021, 04:00 PM
So some potentially exciting news for me: there is a local older Greek restaurateur who seems to recollect my father. From what he can remember, my father might actually have come from Leros or Ikaria. We'll see if any more light can come out of this.

That's very exciting. PM sent.

TonyC
04-11-2021, 01:38 PM
Target: Anthony_C_scaled
Distance: 2.7039% / 0.02703920
66.8 Barcin_N
32.8 Steppe_EN
0.4 WHG

peloponnesian
04-13-2021, 08:58 AM
How much and in which direction do your parents differ genetically in a population genetics sense? With the AC/BC comparison on Vahaduo/nmonte you can see to which direction a person is shifted relatively to another and vice versa. For example, when I run it for my parents:


Distance ratio: ( AC / BC ) ↑
A: mother
B: father
C: ↴
0.62233053 Albanian
0.63864499 Greek_Macedonia
0.64490219 Rumelia_East
0.65989394 Greek_Central_Macedonia
0.68571235 Greek_Thessaly
0.70651908 Bulgarian
0.71151427 Macedonian:Northwest
0.72149622 Macedonian:East2
0.73436909 Gagauz
0.74110216 Italian_Piedmont
0.74139452 Romanian
0.74338813 Italian_Veneto
0.74475990 Swiss_Italian
0.74558822 Italian_Northeast
0.75496844 Macedonian:Pelagonia1
0.76175695 Macedonian:Central
0.76247420 Macedonian:Southeast
0.76258902 Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige
0.76480316 Serbian
0.77061904 Italian_Bergamo
0.77124196 Montenegrin
0.77599252 Macedonian:East1
0.78010885 Italian_Lombardy
0.79526999 Moldovan
0.80432295 Bosnian






Distance ratio: ( AC / BC ) ↓
A: mother
B: father
C: ↴
1.31306564 Italian_Calabria
1.30932482 Greek_Kos
1.27019776 Ashkenazi_Germany
1.26721125 Ashkenazi_Belarussia
1.26564649 Greek_Izmir
1.26344399 Greek_Dodecanese
1.26159213 Ashkenazi_Lithuania
1.24562029 Greek_Crete
1.24549616 Italian_Basilicata
1.23651442 Italian_Campania
1.22380993 Cypriot_B
1.21275089 Romaniote_Jew
1.20851329 Cypriot
1.20641547 Italian_Jew
1.20192143 Greek_Laconia
1.19257193 Palestinian_Beit_Sahour
1.18147106 Druze
1.17859254 Sephardic_Jew
1.17670516 Maltese
1.17175924 Ashkenazi_Poland
1.17100577 Greek_Central_Anatolia
1.16680814 Lebanese_Christian_Greek_Orthodox
1.16627870 Lebanese_Christian
1.16587071 Lebanese_Christian_Maronite
1.16570752 Lebanese_Druze



So my mother is clearly Balkan-shifted relatively to my father and my father is "East Med continuum"-shifted relatively to my mother. Nothing surprising if you've run a few models with the people involved but it's still a neat presentation :) Thanks to 23abc for showing the tool a few pages back

TonyC
04-14-2021, 02:03 AM
So some potentially exciting news for me: there is a local older Greek restaurateur who seems to recollect my father. From what he can remember, my father might actually have come from Leros or Ikaria. We'll see if any more light can come out of this.

Probably know the restauranteur. My dad had a restaurant in the town you’re referencing (my home town) from 1954-2007.

Michalis Moriopoulos
04-14-2021, 02:41 AM
Probably know the restauranteur. My dad had a restaurant in the town you’re referencing (my home town) from 1954-2007.

Oh, I'm quite sure you will. I'll PM you.

Sorcelow
04-14-2021, 01:26 PM
My cousin asked for all the names from a single village (around 60) and it cost 200 euros. Not sure if he's changed his fee since then. Hope I'm not breaking any forum rules lol

Mind pming me more about this? I have some interesting stuff I'd like to share with you.

J Man
04-14-2021, 02:18 PM
Pretty sure I asked this question more than once already but does anyone here know any Maniots personally?

Markos
04-14-2021, 02:46 PM
Pretty sure I asked this question more than once already but does anyone here know any Maniots personally?

I'm sure many of us do, myself included.

J Man
04-14-2021, 04:00 PM
I'm sure many of us do, myself included.

You know some Maniots from Mani then?...I am interested in having some males tested from there .

Markos
04-14-2021, 05:33 PM
You know some Maniots from Mani then?...I am interested in having some males tested from there .

Yes, my brother-in-law. Maybe I can convince him one day.

J Man
04-14-2021, 05:40 PM
Yes, my brother-in-law. Maybe I can convince him one day.

Can you clear your inbox please?...I would like to PM you. :)

Markos
04-14-2021, 06:08 PM
Can you clear your inbox please?...I would like to PM you. :)

Okay. Done

TonyC
04-16-2021, 01:10 AM
Oh, I'm quite sure you will. I'll PM you.

Hey I tried to PM but wasn’t able to. Said you needed to clear space. Anyway I truly believe I could help you with your search!

Michalis Moriopoulos
04-16-2021, 01:19 AM
Hey I tried to PM but wasn’t able to. Said you needed to clear space. Anyway I truly believe I could help you with your search!

I did get a PM from you! If you want to send me another one, you should be able to now. I had to clear my inbox.

Michalis Moriopoulos
04-16-2021, 02:18 AM
When my 20-year old mother was dating my 32-year old father in 1985, they ran a restaurant together in the same small town I live in now. Here's (https://i.imgur.com/39PPIxI.png) a photo of her working there at the time. When she was pregnant with me, their relationship was on the rocks and so was the restaurant. He was apparently robbing Peter to pay Paul to keep things running. When the business finally failed, he wanted my pregnant mother to accompany him to Greece. My grandfather (mom's dad) told her in no uncertain terms, "If you get on the plane with that man, I believe we will never hear from you or that child again." She agreed with this sentiment and ended the relationship. She drove my father to the airport so he could catch a plane to Athens and that's the last time anyone's ever seen or heard from Mr. Thomakos. I inherited nothing from him, not even a photograph. Well, not quite nothing. Just yesterday, my grandmother (mom's mom) happened to stumble upon something while going through her storage:

https://i.imgur.com/4xXDrCZ.png

It's a bouzouki-shaped bottle for mavrodaphne imported from Piraeus. Here's one like it I just found on ebay (https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Greek-Bouzouki-Liquor-Bottle/184031423818?_trkparms=aid%3D1110006%26algo%3DHOME SPLICE.SIM%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20200818143230%26meid% 3Dda70e431e1a34851a616e4454dbbf231%26pid%3D101224% 26rk%3D2%26rkt%3D5%26mehot%3Dnone%26sd%3D143644699 519%26itm%3D184031423818%26pmt%3D0%26noa%3D1%26pg% 3D2047675%26algv%3DDefaultOrganic&_trksid=p2047675.c101224.m-1).

This little trinket has been sitting in my grandmother's house for 35 years, and it's now the only thing I own that belonged to my biological father.

In happier news, ol' TonyC and I happen to live in the same town and plan on meeting up soon!

Greekscholar
04-16-2021, 04:45 PM
Fooling around with the new migration samples. I removed LIB3 because of its closeness to Italy that caused overfitting. I used R5P to try to reduce overfitting, but probably was not successful. At any rate, fit is very good.

Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2,0.118376,0.158423,-0.009051,-0.0670225,0.0252355,-0.027889,0.001645,-0.005077,0.0049085,0.042552,0.002842,0.01124,-0.016873,0.003578,-0.018526,-0.0157785,0.0035855,0.0003805,0.004588,-0.0126935,-0.008298,0.001546,0.001664,0.0071095,-0.008502
Anatolia_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA,0.1050018,0.1515678,-0.042332,-0.082365,-0.0040775,-0.0274705,-0.0024088,-0.0077882,-0.011402,0.028429,0.0097435,0.007006,-0.0120788,0.0030965,-0.0138435,-0.004475,0.0116693,-0.0021538,0.0087988,-0.00741,-0.0031817,0.0061828,-0.0048065,0.0030725,-0.001407
TUR_Alalakh_MLBA,0.0970122,0.1472908,-0.0604988,-0.090117,-0.0156477,-0.0341748,0.0015728,-0.0050412,-0.00306,0.0125111,0.006408,-0.0047555,0.0086109,0.004912,-0.0113588,0.0070272,-0.0005767,0.0018711,0.0047668,-0.002535,0.0021548,0.0038048,-0.0040007,-0.0040968,0.0005988
Migration1:LIB2,0.12862,0.145221,0.071653,0.063308 ,0.045855,0.025937,0.005875,0.005307,-0.001023,-0.005649,-0.009743,0.002548,-0.00669,-0.00812,0.013165,0,-0.001043,-0.003674,-0.008673,0.016133,0.006863,0.006925,-0.000123,0.01687,-0.010658
Migration2:LIB11,0.1161,0.142174,0.05242,0.041667, 0.046162,0.010877,0.011045,0.001154,0,-0.020046,0.002111,0.001948,0.00773,0.016652,-0.0057,-0.003978,-0.004303,-0.012162,-0.003771,-0.002751,0.001622,-0.00779,0.013434,-0.002048,-0.001557
Migration3:POH3,0.127482,0.123895,0.053551,0.02293 3,0.038776,0.002231,0.005875,0.013615,0.002045,-0.002916,0.006496,-0.005995,0.010852,0.011285,-0.015608,-0.011535,0.013821,-0.004434,-0.013827,0.013256,-0.003244,0.003586,0.00912,-0.010122,0.002036
Migration4:POH11,0.12862,0.145221,0.067882,0.05103 4,0.031083,0.014223,0.0094,0.006,-0.010226,-0.006196,-0.009581,0.003297,0.009812,0.024222,-0.013301,0,0.010822,-0.005194,0.007919,0.003377,-0.014225,-0.002473,0.011955,0.004458,-0.006466
Migration5:POH13,0.127482,0.132019,0.083721,0.0784 89,0.050471,0.026495,0.00517,0.018922,0.004295,-0.028429,-0.004384,-0.006744,0.017988,0.043076,-0.008143,-0.011668,0.005346,0.000507,0.004022,0.012256,-0.012228,-0.008903,0.01368,-0.013496,-0.002395
Migration6:POH27,0.126344,0.152329,0.037335,-0.001938,0.030159,-0.001116,0.004935,-0.002769,-0.008795,0.003462,0.00065,0.011989,0.002379,0.0068 81,-0.009093,-0.002121,0.024512,-0.000127,-0.005405,-0.006628,-0.001872,-0.011252,0.008751,0.001084,-0.002754
Migration7:POH28,0.141141,0.136081,0.087492,0.0817 19,0.047086,0.027052,0.019976,0.023999,0.010635,-0.01385,-0.001299,-0.014537,0.027502,0.03647,-0.015065,-0.007425,-0.014473,-0.005954,-0.005531,0,-0.007237,-0.004204,0.000616,-0.00964,-0.002275
Migration8:POH36,0.12862,0.132019,0.072407,0.05491 ,0.055395,0.01004,0.00376,0.006692,0.005727,-0.02278,0.000812,-0.025777,0.005946,0.015138,-0.011672,0.00358,0.014864,-0.006334,0.007919,-0.001876,-0.003619,-0.000247,0.002835,0.000964,0.005389
Migration9:POH40,0.133173,0.137096,0.061094,0.0565 25,0.046778,0.02259,0.016216,0.004615,-0.000409,-0.023144,-0.014615,-0.002248,0.011596,0.013487,0.009229,0.009679,0.015 255,0.002027,0.000126,0.007379,0.001497,-0.00272,0.003328,-0.009037,-0.011376
Migration10:POH41,0.129758,0.128972,0.074293,0.062 016,0.033852,0.01757,0.014101,0.013153,0.000205,-0.01877,-0.00682,0.005545,0.013528,0.026286,-0.011129,0.012596,0.00013,-0.001014,0.004274,0.005503,0.001747,-0.001731,0.00912,-0.005543,0.014609



Target: Greek_Thessaly
Distance: 1.0577% / 0.01057673 | R5P
32.6 Anatolia_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA
29.0 Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2
15.0 Migration1:LIB2
14.2 Migration10:POH41
9.2 Migration7:POH28

Target: Greek_Peloponnese
Distance: 0.9605% / 0.00960526 | R5P
37.8 Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2
25.6 TUR_Alalakh_MLBA
15.6 Migration8:POH36
11.2 Migration10:POH41
9.8 Migration4:POH11


Target: Greek_Crete
Distance: 0.8025% / 0.00802476 | R5P
34.0 TUR_Alalakh_MLBA
28.8 Anatolia_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA
12.8 Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2
12.4 Migration5:POH13
12.0 Migration1:LIB2


Target: Greek_Kos
Distance: 0.8014% / 0.00801359 | R5P
46.2 Anatolia_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA
27.0 TUR_Alalakh_MLBA
12.8 Migration6:POH27
8.4 Migration9:POH40
5.6 Migration1:LIB2

TonyC
04-16-2021, 11:57 PM
Fooling around with the new migration samples. I removed LIB3 because of its closeness to Italy that caused overfitting. I used R5P to try to reduce overfitting, but probably was not successful. At any rate, fit is very good.

Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2,0.118376,0.158423,-0.009051,-0.0670225,0.0252355,-0.027889,0.001645,-0.005077,0.0049085,0.042552,0.002842,0.01124,-0.016873,0.003578,-0.018526,-0.0157785,0.0035855,0.0003805,0.004588,-0.0126935,-0.008298,0.001546,0.001664,0.0071095,-0.008502
Anatolia_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA,0.1050018,0.1515678,-0.042332,-0.082365,-0.0040775,-0.0274705,-0.0024088,-0.0077882,-0.011402,0.028429,0.0097435,0.007006,-0.0120788,0.0030965,-0.0138435,-0.004475,0.0116693,-0.0021538,0.0087988,-0.00741,-0.0031817,0.0061828,-0.0048065,0.0030725,-0.001407
TUR_Alalakh_MLBA,0.0970122,0.1472908,-0.0604988,-0.090117,-0.0156477,-0.0341748,0.0015728,-0.0050412,-0.00306,0.0125111,0.006408,-0.0047555,0.0086109,0.004912,-0.0113588,0.0070272,-0.0005767,0.0018711,0.0047668,-0.002535,0.0021548,0.0038048,-0.0040007,-0.0040968,0.0005988
Migration1:LIB2,0.12862,0.145221,0.071653,0.063308 ,0.045855,0.025937,0.005875,0.005307,-0.001023,-0.005649,-0.009743,0.002548,-0.00669,-0.00812,0.013165,0,-0.001043,-0.003674,-0.008673,0.016133,0.006863,0.006925,-0.000123,0.01687,-0.010658
Migration2:LIB11,0.1161,0.142174,0.05242,0.041667, 0.046162,0.010877,0.011045,0.001154,0,-0.020046,0.002111,0.001948,0.00773,0.016652,-0.0057,-0.003978,-0.004303,-0.012162,-0.003771,-0.002751,0.001622,-0.00779,0.013434,-0.002048,-0.001557
Migration3:POH3,0.127482,0.123895,0.053551,0.02293 3,0.038776,0.002231,0.005875,0.013615,0.002045,-0.002916,0.006496,-0.005995,0.010852,0.011285,-0.015608,-0.011535,0.013821,-0.004434,-0.013827,0.013256,-0.003244,0.003586,0.00912,-0.010122,0.002036
Migration4:POH11,0.12862,0.145221,0.067882,0.05103 4,0.031083,0.014223,0.0094,0.006,-0.010226,-0.006196,-0.009581,0.003297,0.009812,0.024222,-0.013301,0,0.010822,-0.005194,0.007919,0.003377,-0.014225,-0.002473,0.011955,0.004458,-0.006466
Migration5:POH13,0.127482,0.132019,0.083721,0.0784 89,0.050471,0.026495,0.00517,0.018922,0.004295,-0.028429,-0.004384,-0.006744,0.017988,0.043076,-0.008143,-0.011668,0.005346,0.000507,0.004022,0.012256,-0.012228,-0.008903,0.01368,-0.013496,-0.002395
Migration6:POH27,0.126344,0.152329,0.037335,-0.001938,0.030159,-0.001116,0.004935,-0.002769,-0.008795,0.003462,0.00065,0.011989,0.002379,0.0068 81,-0.009093,-0.002121,0.024512,-0.000127,-0.005405,-0.006628,-0.001872,-0.011252,0.008751,0.001084,-0.002754
Migration7:POH28,0.141141,0.136081,0.087492,0.0817 19,0.047086,0.027052,0.019976,0.023999,0.010635,-0.01385,-0.001299,-0.014537,0.027502,0.03647,-0.015065,-0.007425,-0.014473,-0.005954,-0.005531,0,-0.007237,-0.004204,0.000616,-0.00964,-0.002275
Migration8:POH36,0.12862,0.132019,0.072407,0.05491 ,0.055395,0.01004,0.00376,0.006692,0.005727,-0.02278,0.000812,-0.025777,0.005946,0.015138,-0.011672,0.00358,0.014864,-0.006334,0.007919,-0.001876,-0.003619,-0.000247,0.002835,0.000964,0.005389
Migration9:POH40,0.133173,0.137096,0.061094,0.0565 25,0.046778,0.02259,0.016216,0.004615,-0.000409,-0.023144,-0.014615,-0.002248,0.011596,0.013487,0.009229,0.009679,0.015 255,0.002027,0.000126,0.007379,0.001497,-0.00272,0.003328,-0.009037,-0.011376
Migration10:POH41,0.129758,0.128972,0.074293,0.062 016,0.033852,0.01757,0.014101,0.013153,0.000205,-0.01877,-0.00682,0.005545,0.013528,0.026286,-0.011129,0.012596,0.00013,-0.001014,0.004274,0.005503,0.001747,-0.001731,0.00912,-0.005543,0.014609



Target: Greek_Thessaly
Distance: 1.0577% / 0.01057673 | R5P
32.6 Anatolia_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA
29.0 Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2
15.0 Migration1:LIB2
14.2 Migration10:POH41
9.2 Migration7:POH28

Target: Greek_Peloponnese
Distance: 0.9605% / 0.00960526 | R5P
37.8 Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2
25.6 TUR_Alalakh_MLBA
15.6 Migration8:POH36
11.2 Migration10:POH41
9.8 Migration4:POH11


Target: Greek_Crete
Distance: 0.8025% / 0.00802476 | R5P
34.0 TUR_Alalakh_MLBA
28.8 Anatolia_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA
12.8 Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2
12.4 Migration5:POH13
12.0 Migration1:LIB2


Target: Greek_Kos
Distance: 0.8014% / 0.00801359 | R5P
46.2 Anatolia_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA
27.0 TUR_Alalakh_MLBA
12.8 Migration6:POH27
8.4 Migration9:POH40
5.6 Migration1:LIB2

Target: Anthony_C_scaled
Distance: 1.8453% / 0.01845287
46.6 Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2
21.0 Anatolia_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA
13.0 Migration10OH41
7.4 Migration5OH13
4.0 Migration1
3.0 Migration4OH11
2.8 Migration7OH28
2.2 Migration8OH36

Could you please explain the migration samples and/or where I could find info about them. Thanks!

TonyC
04-16-2021, 11:59 PM
Target: Anthony_C_scaled
Distance: 1.8453% / 0.01845287
46.6 Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2
21.0 Anatolia_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA
13.0 Migration10OH41
7.4 Migration5OH13
4.0 Migration1
3.0 Migration4OH11
2.8 Migration7OH28
2.2 Migration8OH36

Could you please explain the migration samples and/or where I could find info about them. Thanks!

That's ok I see the thread now.

Andrewid
04-17-2021, 12:56 PM
When my 20-year old mother was dating my 32-year old father in 1985, they ran a restaurant together in the same small town I live in now. Here's (https://i.imgur.com/39PPIxI.png) a photo of her working there at the time. When she was pregnant with me, their relationship was on the rocks and so was the restaurant. He was apparently robbing Peter to pay Paul to keep things running. When the business finally failed, he wanted my pregnant mother to accompany him to Greece. My grandfather (mom's dad) told her in no uncertain terms, "If you get on the plane with that man, I believe we will never hear from you or that child again." She agreed with this sentiment and ended the relationship. She drove my father to the airport so he could catch a plane to Athens and that's the last time anyone's ever seen or heard from Mr. Thomakos. I inherited nothing from him, not even a photograph. Well, not quite nothing. Just yesterday, my grandmother (mom's mom) happened to stumble upon something while going through her storage:

https://i.imgur.com/4xXDrCZ.png

It's a bouzouki-shaped bottle for mavrodaphne imported from Piraeus. Here's one like it I just found on ebay (https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Greek-Bouzouki-Liquor-Bottle/184031423818?_trkparms=aid%3D1110006%26algo%3DHOME SPLICE.SIM%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20200818143230%26meid% 3Dda70e431e1a34851a616e4454dbbf231%26pid%3D101224% 26rk%3D2%26rkt%3D5%26mehot%3Dnone%26sd%3D143644699 519%26itm%3D184031423818%26pmt%3D0%26noa%3D1%26pg% 3D2047675%26algv%3DDefaultOrganic&_trksid=p2047675.c101224.m-1).

This little trinket has been sitting in my grandmother's house for 35 years, and it's now the only thing I own that belonged to my biological father.

In happier news, ol' TonyC and I happen to live in the same town and plan on meeting up soon!

OMG Mihali! The picture jogged my memory so I went ramaging. My mother owns such a bottle. It's a cherry something and must be from over 35 years ago. It's never been opened, in fact it was still sitting in its box when I found it. I had to screw the separate top on. The liqueur must be toxic by now. As far as I'm concerned, a family heir loom like that is the only real marker of Greek identity. DNA tests pale into insignificance by comparison:)

Here's my Greek identity card:

https://i.imgur.com/4D6yAeL.jpg

Btw, if your father was from Ikaria, I'm going to have to give you some culinary lessons. The only place in the Greek world where colocasi (a type of taro) is eaten is Cyprus and...Ikaria. In Ikaria, it's eaten a lot in salads (though it needs to be cooked first) and locals report that it helped the islanders fend off starvation during WWII!

And if you are of Ikarian origin, be prepared to live past 100! This documentary on Ikaria and its people's longevity is worth a watch:

https://youtu.be/erSmSrLeIvQ

Greekscholar
04-18-2021, 08:09 PM
Cool stuff. I am not sure I would drink the liqueur either at this point. Most of my Greek swag is various little coffee cups and vases with "Φούρνοι" and a crude map scrawled on it along with some nice linens and doilies. My parents have a big collection of Asian stuff, like fancy porcelain Chinese dolls, they have brought back from Fourni over the years. Maybe it is just a Fourni thing, but Asian-themed décor is a must for the "sitting room" where guests are entertained.

At any rate, here is another model using a selection of Aegean-like Roman Imperial samples and the Migration samples. Again, R5P to try and reduce overfitting. Fits are very good for mainland and island averages. I need to run some similar models with our old Steppe-heavy favorite samples to see if the close fits are do to the new samples, or because of the way the model is set up.

Note that LIB1,ROH36, and ROH27 are the specific migration samples that seem to be preferred.


Migration1:LIB2,0.12862,0.145221,0.071653,0.063308 ,0.045855,0.025937,0.005875,0.005307,-0.001023,-0.005649,-0.009743,0.002548,-0.00669,-0.00812,0.013165,0,-0.001043,-0.003674,-0.008673,0.016133,0.006863,0.006925,-0.000123,0.01687,-0.010658
Migration2:LIB11,0.1161,0.142174,0.05242,0.041667, 0.046162,0.010877,0.011045,0.001154,0,-0.020046,0.002111,0.001948,0.00773,0.016652,-0.0057,-0.003978,-0.004303,-0.012162,-0.003771,-0.002751,0.001622,-0.00779,0.013434,-0.002048,-0.001557
Migration3:POH3,0.127482,0.123895,0.053551,0.02293 3,0.038776,0.002231,0.005875,0.013615,0.002045,-0.002916,0.006496,-0.005995,0.010852,0.011285,-0.015608,-0.011535,0.013821,-0.004434,-0.013827,0.013256,-0.003244,0.003586,0.00912,-0.010122,0.002036
Migration4:POH11,0.12862,0.145221,0.067882,0.05103 4,0.031083,0.014223,0.0094,0.006,-0.010226,-0.006196,-0.009581,0.003297,0.009812,0.024222,-0.013301,0,0.010822,-0.005194,0.007919,0.003377,-0.014225,-0.002473,0.011955,0.004458,-0.006466
Migration5:POH13,0.127482,0.132019,0.083721,0.0784 89,0.050471,0.026495,0.00517,0.018922,0.004295,-0.028429,-0.004384,-0.006744,0.017988,0.043076,-0.008143,-0.011668,0.005346,0.000507,0.004022,0.012256,-0.012228,-0.008903,0.01368,-0.013496,-0.002395
Migration6:POH27,0.126344,0.152329,0.037335,-0.001938,0.030159,-0.001116,0.004935,-0.002769,-0.008795,0.003462,0.00065,0.011989,0.002379,0.0068 81,-0.009093,-0.002121,0.024512,-0.000127,-0.005405,-0.006628,-0.001872,-0.011252,0.008751,0.001084,-0.002754
Migration7:POH28,0.141141,0.136081,0.087492,0.0817 19,0.047086,0.027052,0.019976,0.023999,0.010635,-0.01385,-0.001299,-0.014537,0.027502,0.03647,-0.015065,-0.007425,-0.014473,-0.005954,-0.005531,0,-0.007237,-0.004204,0.000616,-0.00964,-0.002275
Migration8:POH36,0.12862,0.132019,0.072407,0.05491 ,0.055395,0.01004,0.00376,0.006692,0.005727,-0.02278,0.000812,-0.025777,0.005946,0.015138,-0.011672,0.00358,0.014864,-0.006334,0.007919,-0.001876,-0.003619,-0.000247,0.002835,0.000964,0.005389
Migration9:POH40,0.133173,0.137096,0.061094,0.0565 25,0.046778,0.02259,0.016216,0.004615,-0.000409,-0.023144,-0.014615,-0.002248,0.011596,0.013487,0.009229,0.009679,0.015 255,0.002027,0.000126,0.007379,0.001497,-0.00272,0.003328,-0.009037,-0.011376
Migration10:POH41,0.129758,0.128972,0.074293,0.062 016,0.033852,0.01757,0.014101,0.013153,0.000205,-0.01877,-0.00682,0.005545,0.013528,0.026286,-0.011129,0.012596,0.00013,-0.001014,0.004274,0.005503,0.001747,-0.001731,0.00912,-0.005543,0.014609
ITA_Rome_Imperial1:RMPR115,0.105855,0.145221,-0.02225,-0.065892,-0.001846,-0.01255,0.00188,0.002538,-0.00225,0.019317,0.002598,0.006294,-0.005054,0.001927,-0.011401,-0.001724,0.009127,-0.000253,0.003645,-0.011631,-0.007112,0.004328,-0.003821,0.004699,-0.003952
ITA_Rome_Imperial2:RMPR49,0.110408,0.156392,-0.00528,-0.040052,0.016618,-0.020917,0.00376,-0.003461,-0.00225,0.017677,0.004384,0.006594,-0.01219,0.002477,-0.010315,0.002387,0.004042,-0.002154,0.00352,-0.004502,0.002496,-0.000124,0.000739,-0.005904,0.003233
ITA_Rome_Imperial3:RMPR39,0.111547,0.142174,-0.022627,-0.065892,0.002462,-0.020638,-0.00141,-0.006923,-0.004295,0.028064,0.007795,0.004796,-0.005798,0.000138,-0.013843,0.000796,0.006519,0.001394,-0.000628,0.004002,-0.00262,0.000989,-0.00037,-0.006386,-0.000838
ITA_Rome_Imperial4:RMPR40,0.105855,0.151314,-0.023004,-0.060078,0.001539,-0.013666,-0.00141,-0.004846,-0.012067,0.027882,0.007307,0.003447,-0.010555,0.000275,-0.017236,-0.000796,0.000261,-0.00076,-0.002388,-0.01113,-0.004742,0.000371,-0.013188,0.004338,-0.000359
ITA_Rome_Imperial5:RMPR81,0.108132,0.15436,-0.026398,-0.063308,0.005232,-0.027052,0.000705,0.008307,-0.001432,0.025149,0.005521,-0.003897,-0.002825,-0.005367,-0.010315,-0.001989,0.012126,0.004307,0.008422,0.001501,-0.010856,0.001484,0.00419,-0.001205,-0.001197
ITA_Rome_Imperial6:RMPR50,0.100164,0.150298,-0.024136,-0.049742,0.008309,-0.009203,0.00141,-0.000692,-0.005113,0.014214,0.000974,0.002997,0.00223,0.0050 92,-0.003257,-0.012198,-0.009648,0.007601,0.006159,-0.008379,0,0.007419,0.001972,0.000602,0.001557
ITA_Rome_Imperial7:RMPR835,0.102441,0.14319,-0.006411,-0.038114,0.017849,-0.017012,-0.010575,0.002077,0.001023,0.019135,0.006008,0.001 199,-0.009217,-0.004542,-0.008822,0.009679,0.003912,0.003801,-0.003142,-0.007754,-0.004492,-0.005193,0.005176,-0.001928,-0.001197


Target: Greek_Central_Macedonia
Distance: 0.9761% / 0.00976111 | R5P
32.8 ITA_Rome_Imperial3:RMPR39
23.2 ITA_Rome_Imperial1:RMPR115
19.2 Migration4:POH11
18.6 Migration8:POH36
6.2 Migration6:POH27

Target: Greek_Peloponnese
Distance: 1.0401% / 0.01040086 | R5P
28.0 ITA_Rome_Imperial3:RMPR39
25.4 ITA_Rome_Imperial1:RMPR115
18.2 ITA_Rome_Imperial2:RMPR49
17.4 Migration8:POH36
11.0 Migration4:POH11

Target: Greek_Smyrna
Distance: 0.8289% / 0.00828872 | R5P
34.6 ITA_Rome_Imperial1:RMPR115
28.2 ITA_Rome_Imperial3:RMPR39
15.8 ITA_Rome_Imperial2:RMPR49
11.8 Migration8:POH36
9.6 Migration4:POH11

Target: Greek_Crete
Distance: 0.7220% / 0.00721980 | R5P
35.0 ITA_Rome_Imperial1:RMPR115
19.2 ITA_Rome_Imperial3:RMPR39
16.0 ITA_Rome_Imperial5:RMPR81
15.2 ITA_Rome_Imperial6:RMPR50
14.6 Migration2:LIB11

Target: Greek_Dodecanese
Distance: 1.1005% / 0.01100544 | R5P
31.2 ITA_Rome_Imperial3:RMPR39
25.8 ITA_Rome_Imperial1:RMPR115
23.2 ITA_Rome_Imperial6:RMPR50
17.2 ITA_Rome_Imperial5:RMPR81
2.6 Migration2:LIB11

lacreme
04-18-2021, 10:09 PM
My Greek friend and his mother using your latest model

Target: Chris_scaled
Distance: 1.2995% / 0.01299550 | R5P
46.0 ITA_Rome_Imperial4:RMPR40
22.4 ITA_Rome_Imperial5:RMPR81
12.6 Migration9:POH40
10.0 Migration4:POH11
9.0 ITA_Rome_Imperial7:RMPR835


Target: ChrisMom_scaled
Distance: 1.9141% / 0.01914088 | R5P
44.0 ITA_Rome_Imperial6:RMPR50
33.8 ITA_Rome_Imperial1:RMPR115
10.8 ITA_Rome_Imperial4:RMPR40
9.4 Migration5:POH13
2.0 Migration2:LIB11

Andrewid
04-18-2021, 11:29 PM
Target: Andrewid_scaled
Distance: 2.4114% / 0.02411424 | R5P
38.6 ITA_Rome_Imperial1
36.8 ITA_Rome_Imperial3
20.8 ITA_Rome_Imperial6
3.8 ITA_Rome_Imperial5

Andrewid
04-19-2021, 09:18 AM
When I add all the Rome Imperial samples plus migration I get this:

Target: Andrewid_scaled
Distance: 1.0735% / 0.01073538 | R5P
93.6 ITA_Rome_Imperial
6.4 Migration

The fit is much better and Migration appears, which roughly corresponds to the Yamnaya I get through other calculations (usually around 9%). But why isn't the Rome Imperial split into the various individual samples?

Distance to: Andrewid_scaled
0.02448402 ITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR41
0.02506166 ITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR126
0.02565501 ITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR75
0.02793988 ITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR115
0.02928839 ITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR72
0.03019123 ITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR39
0.03221869 ITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR1545
0.03383386 ITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR1543
0.03512610 ITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR123
0.03563794 ITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR81
0.03604672 ITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR71
0.03629511 ITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR40
0.03682502 ITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR43
0.03805494 ITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR50
0.03821126 ITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR38
0.03871992 ITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR78
0.03971120 ITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR66
0.04138370 ITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR70
0.04144203 ITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR51
0.04152568 ITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR128
0.04170525 ITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR73
0.04239848 ITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR76
0.04353640 ITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR114
0.04425250 ITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR44
0.04489305 ITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR1548

Johnny ola
04-19-2021, 11:38 AM
When I add all the Rome Imperial samples plus migration I get this:

Target: Andrewid_scaled
Distance: 1.0735% / 0.01073538 | R5P
93.6 ITA_Rome_Imperial
6.4 Migration

The fit is much better and Migration appears, which roughly corresponds to the Yamnaya I get through other calculations (usually around 9%). But why isn't the Rome Imperial split into the various individual samples?

Distance to: Andrewid_scaled
0.02448402 ITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR41
0.02506166 ITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR126
0.02565501 ITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR75
0.02793988 ITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR115
0.02928839 ITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR72
0.03019123 ITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR39
0.03221869 ITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR1545
0.03383386 ITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR1543
0.03512610 ITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR123
0.03563794 ITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR81
0.03604672 ITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR71
0.03629511 ITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR40
0.03682502 ITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR43
0.03805494 ITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR50
0.03821126 ITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR38
0.03871992 ITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR78
0.03971120 ITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR66
0.04138370 ITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR70
0.04144203 ITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR51
0.04152568 ITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR128
0.04170525 ITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR73
0.04239848 ITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR76
0.04353640 ITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR114
0.04425250 ITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR44
0.04489305 ITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR1548

YOU score steppe Like most Cypriots do. The migration sample eating your steppe admixture.

Greekscholar
04-19-2021, 01:47 PM
When I add all the Rome Imperial samples plus migration I get this:

Target: Andrewid_scaled
Distance: 1.0735% / 0.01073538 | R5P
93.6 ITA_Rome_Imperial
6.4 Migration

The fit is much better and Migration appears, which roughly corresponds to the Yamnaya I get through other calculations (usually around 9%). But why isn't the Rome Imperial split into the various individual samples?

Distance to: Andrewid_scaled
0.02448402 ITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR41
0.02506166 ITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR126
0.02565501 ITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR75
0.02793988 ITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR115
0.02928839 ITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR72
0.03019123 ITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR39
0.03221869 ITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR1545
0.03383386 ITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR1543
0.03512610 ITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR123
0.03563794 ITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR81
0.03604672 ITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR71
0.03629511 ITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR40
0.03682502 ITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR43
0.03805494 ITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR50
0.03821126 ITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR38
0.03871992 ITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR78
0.03971120 ITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR66
0.04138370 ITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR70
0.04144203 ITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR51
0.04152568 ITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR128
0.04170525 ITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR73
0.04239848 ITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR76
0.04353640 ITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR114
0.04425250 ITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR44
0.04489305 ITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR1548

I had to relabel those particular Imperial samples so they would all appear as separate source populations in R5P. I hand selected a few of the most Aegean-like since I wanted to try a model that uses individual samples, not averages.

The samples I picked out were not as close to the Cypriot average as the ones you are posting above, so that is probably why the fit is not as good for you. My main goal was to see if Mainlanders, especially, could be modeled as Roman-Aegean like profiles + the migration samples.

Sorcelow
04-19-2021, 03:00 PM
I now have the TT603 defter of the Peloponnese in my possession. Even though my knowledge of the Ottoman ziyakat script is limited, I am working on translating some pages, using Liakopoulos' previous work on the 1462 defter as a guide.

Johnny ola
04-19-2021, 03:52 PM
I had to relabel those particular Imperial samples so they would all appear as separate source populations in R5P. I hand selected a few of the most Aegean-like since I wanted to try a model that uses individual samples, not averages.

The samples I picked out were not as close to the Cypriot average as the ones you are posting above, so that is probably why the fit is not as good for you. My main goal was to see if Mainlanders, especially, could be modeled as Roman-Aegean like profiles + the migration samples.

They are exactly as you said.Imperial Rome plus Migration period folks.The only thing left is to see how these 'migration' populations that arrived in Greece were in terms of autosomal DNA.If they were close to modern South Slavs or more northern shifted(like Belarussians-Ukranians).

Greekscholar
04-19-2021, 05:00 PM
They are exactly as you said.Imperial Rome plus Migration period folks.The only thing left is to see how these 'migration' populations that arrived in Greece were in terms of autosomal DNA.If they were close to modern South Slavs or more northern shifted(like Belarussians-Ukranians).

I think the model works really well for the Mainland samples. The fit is closer than what I got when I tried the same method with individual Hun_Avar and Hun_Szolad samples + Roman Imperial individuals. The island averages were not as picky, a combination of various Aegean-like Romans plus any of our existing Steppe proxies leads to close fits.

Johnny ola
04-19-2021, 05:23 PM
I think the model works really well for the Mainland samples. The fit is closer than what I got when I tried the same method with individual Hun_Avar and Hun_Szolad samples + Roman Imperial individuals. The island averages were not as picky, a combination of various Aegean-like Romans plus any of our existing Steppe proxies leads to close fits.

Ye.We should wait for medieval/Byzantine Greece samples...i think better fits/models will shown up.But still,using these new 'migration' samples and also the samples from Hungary you can have decent fits/models for modern Greeks.

lacreme
04-29-2021, 07:47 PM
Speaking of Byzantine Greek samples...
Here's a recent discovery in Thessaloniki of the remains of probably 200+ children and infants who died around the time of the Plague of Justinian...

The chance of ever getting dna data from them is slim at best, isn't it :( ?

https://cityportal.gr/thessaloniki-dekades-vrefi-paidia-thammena-mesa-se-aggeia-sta-kastra/

Johnny ola
04-29-2021, 08:15 PM
Speaking of Byzantine Greek samples...
Here's a recent discovery in Thessaloniki of the remains of probably 200+ children and infants who died around the time of the Plague of Justinian...

The chance of ever getting dna data from them is slim at best, isn't it :( ?

https://cityportal.gr/thessaloniki-dekades-vrefi-paidia-thammena-mesa-se-aggeia-sta-kastra/

In Τhessaloniki before a week ago they also found a Gothic(East Germanic) warrior.

https://www.cnn.gr/focus/story/263951/oi-agnostoi-gotthoi-tis-thessalonikis-poy-emplekontan-sti-sfagi-toy-ippodromoy-to-390-m-x
https://www.naftemporiki.gr/story/1716993/thessaloniki-gotthos-polemistis-thammenos-me-ton-oplismo-tou-sto-kentro-tis-polis

lacreme
04-29-2021, 10:51 PM
In Τhessaloniki before a week ago they also found a Gothic(East Germanic) warrior.

https://www.cnn.gr/focus/story/263951/oi-agnostoi-gotthoi-tis-thessalonikis-poy-emplekontan-sti-sfagi-toy-ippodromoy-to-390-m-x
https://www.naftemporiki.gr/story/1716993/thessaloniki-gotthos-polemistis-thammenos-me-ton-oplismo-tou-sto-kentro-tis-polis

Interesting! I wonder how many Gothic graves have they excavated all these years inside the borders of the modern Greek state. It's not the first I suppose.

Johnny ola
04-29-2021, 11:01 PM
Interesting! I wonder how many Gothic graves have they excavated all these years inside the borders of the modern Greek state. It's not the first I suppose.

There was also a Gothic Raid in Sparti.Some Byzantine Generals used/had in their army Goths for mercenaries.

Marko47
05-03-2021, 05:08 PM
Hey everyone,
Hope all is well. I wanted to post an update of my original post that I somewhat erroneously titled "Pontic Greek R-U152" quite a while ago. With the help of a lot of you guys, I now have a better grasp of my background and am a little less out of my element in these discussions. A few positive things have helped me with my research in the past few weeks including a confirmed 3rd cousin of mine who shares my surname taking a DNA test. He is the first person I have ever had to compare with in matching results. I've also been able to find some better information about the village of my father's paternal family called Neochori outside of Constantinopoli. Corresponding with DNA matches has also led me to a refugee database for Pontian/Anatolian Greeks where I have found actual family members and a possible source of my surname. Finally, I recently added a 23andme test for myself that for me, seems to be the most on point and helpful in supporting my theories. Just a quick recap: my father's maternal family are 100% Pontians from Giresun, although speaking to someone who had researched my family tree thoroughly on the Greek Refugee database, it looks like a part of my great grandmother's family registered in our Greek village as coming from Gumushane so there may be something to that. My father's paternal family were from outside of Constantinopoli as I mentioned earlier. Most tests give my father something like a 70/30 West Asian/Greece and the Balkans ratio. Interestingly enough, I get about 40/10 on 23andme (keep in mind my mother is fully Eastern European). People have done my father's G25 and told me it's something like 52% Greek_Trabzon 36% Greek_Central_Macedonia and 12% Greek_Central_Anatolia. Someone told me that the Greek stuff could be Peloponnesian or Thracian, and that there could have been an ancestor coming from the Poli family that came from the east somewhere from Pontus or Central Anatolia. I think all of these things fit given some of the new developments.

1) 23andme regions seem to be pretty spot on for what I know about my known family. My mother's small region in Poland is shaded, as is Giresun for my Anatolian results. My Greek DNA shows the Peloponnesus as shaded #1 on a list of 4 other regions. (2.Thrace 3.South Agean 4.Greek Macedonia. It also has Bulgaria as a general region with no subregions) We have no knowledge of Peloponnesian or other Balkan Greeks, but then again we have no knowledge whatsoever of that branch of our family. But I found a specific document listing excerpts from several historical accounts, that have the founders of the village Neochori Xili as being from Tas Kioprou Nicomedias. People mentioned this last time I posted, and this makes more sense given that everyone who I match with from the village, have very little but more often than not 0% West Asian DNA. They all have Greek or Balkan DNA. Someone sent me an article about another Neochori once, that discussed its origin. This Neochori (of course there have to be like 20 places with the same name) was Neochori Nicomedias, not very far from Tas Kioprou Nicomedias where the founders of our Neochori were from. Neochori Nicomedias was settled by Peloponnesian and Epirote Greeks in something like the 17th century. The history says that the Greeks of Tas Kioprou--who may have also been Peloponnesians--left Tas Kioprou because it had a very large Turkish community. They founded a village close to Sile which became known in the area for being 100% Greek, no Turks at all, and for having their own guerilla unit that protected Christians in the region. People started coming there from other parts of the region for this region, including some from the east.
2)My surname in the Greek refugee database has only 5 entries. 3 out of 5 were located in Neochori and connect with our family history and matches. One woman came to the same village in Greece my grandfather was from, with I believe the same father as my great grandfather. I'm confident she is a relative and she came from Heraclea Pontica. The last person was from Gerze and she had a Cappadocian first name: "Nazli." Whether we are related to this woman's husband is hard to say at this moment. But I think it is a possibility. Being related to 4 out of 5 people in the database makes me think it's likely. It seems to be a small family.
3)My 3rd cousin who shares my last name, has quite a few mutual matches with my father who have a connection with Pontus and some more Central Anatolian locations. Now of course, not too many people have extensive family trees with detailed information, but a few of them have a connection to Tokat and Akdagmadeni/Yozgat. These places do come up quite a bit on trees in general, along with Samsun areas. 23andme besides giving me Giresun province shaded in completely, also gives me 2.Samsun 3. Sivas 4.Tokat. I'm not confident pinpointing my paternal line to any of these places, but I feel comfortable believing my paternal line came to Neochori Xili from Pontus or North central Anatolia in general. Now add to this the fact that I have ydna that is very likely Galatian from R-Z36 (which is said to have produced the Gauls of Gaul, the Belgae, and the Cisalpine Celts) it all starts to gel a bit. Anyways, these are some of the new developments. Any thoughts?

Marko47
05-03-2021, 05:09 PM
Duplicated my post. Whoops

dosas
05-03-2021, 09:34 PM
Yenikoy on this 1913 ethnographic map (Prof. Dr. J. Cvijic) is painted as Greek:


https://i.ibb.co/cF1gMKZ/Screenshot-2021-05-04-Ethnographische-Karte-der-Balkanhalbinsel-von-Prof-Dr-J-Cvijic.png

Markos
05-03-2021, 10:14 PM
...

Show us screenshots

Marko47
05-03-2021, 11:43 PM
The one that we are from is technically within the city of Sile on the Asian part of Constantinopoli, very near to the Black Sea coast. It is called Yenikoy Sile on today's map, not to be confused with the neighborhood called Yenikoy within the city proper.

Marko47
05-03-2021, 11:48 PM
44552

Marko47
05-03-2021, 11:49 PM
44553

Marko47
05-04-2021, 12:08 AM
44554 Just a reminder that these are my results, not my father's. My father would probably have between 25-35% of the Greece and the Balkans result from his paternal family. (His paternal grandmother more than likely being 100%)

eolien
05-04-2021, 12:36 PM
1) We have no knowledge of Peloponnesian or other Balkan Greeks, but then again we have no knowledge whatsoever of that branch of our family. But I found a specific document listing excerpts from several historical accounts, that have the founders of the village Neochori Xili as being from Tas Kioprou Nicomedias. People mentioned this last time I posted, and this makes more sense given that everyone who I match with from the village, have very little but more often than not 0% West Asian DNA. They all have Greek or Balkan DNA. Someone sent me an article about another Neochori once, that discussed its origin. This Neochori (of course there have to be like 20 places with the same name) was Neochori Nicomedias, not very far from Tas Kioprou Nicomedias where the founders of our Neochori were from. Neochori Nicomedias was settled by Peloponnesian and Epirote Greeks in something like the 17th century. The history says that the Greeks of Tas Kioprou--who may have also been Peloponnesians--left Tas Kioprou because it had a very large Turkish community. They founded a village close to Sile which became known in the area for being 100% Greek, no Turks at all, and for having their own guerilla unit that protected Christians in the region. People started coming there from other parts of the region for this region, including some from the east.


Hi, I remember this information somewhere, was it here or perhaps in quora? As i already wrote in the original related post your Neochori (Yenikoy) is near Sile, 41° 7' 23'', 29° 38' 58''

as far as i understand after the Orlov revolt the greeks of Taskopru (Tas Kioprou) region together with other exiles from Peloponnes were deported to Yenikoy. They were called backwoodsman, mountaineer etc by local greeks, i.e. rough, rude etc. due their greek dialect. They were the source of greek bandit groups after 1919.


source https://nisanyanmap.com/?y=yenik%C3%B6y&lv=&t=%C5%9File&cry=TR&ua=5

Marko47
05-04-2021, 02:56 PM
Hi, yes, I remember someone mentioning this information. You may have posted the source but there was something there about Orlov and possibly Gebze (which is basically slightly above where they came from). This is another interpretation than what I have seen from Greek accounts. I didn't see anything about deportation or even Orlov. There was once a Turkish wikipedia article that mentioned the dialect too, that they couldn't understand the other Greeks of Sile. This is hard to verify from actual people of either place and seems very likely untrue. There were 2 parts of Yenikoy Sile which included a mountainous upper village that had its own guerilla unit. It was a village of shepherds and there were tens of thousands of sheep. When they were threatened by neighboring people they would send in their small guerilla band that became well known for defending Christian interests. This is why the entire village was later deported and destroyed. You can translate this blog which includes excerpts from books. https://neoxori-xili.blogspot.com/?fbclid=IwAR2CvsRiVXmTNndUPIC9dilTb4bx3P_RQPxr-0C8Ia2l9rN3Utmfx3RU5bA

Exercitus
05-14-2021, 06:21 PM
I guess that for those who came from the area of Phocis\Φωκίδα, this interesting informations might be quite enlightening!

https://i.imgur.com/i1FUgzQ.png

https://i.imgur.com/XfjtZ5c.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/PVyQopN.jpg

also - https://yfull.com/live/tree/I-Y18331/

peloponnesian
05-15-2021, 10:08 AM
I guess that for those who came from the area of Phocis\Φωκίδα, this interesting informations might be quite enlightening!

https://i.imgur.com/i1FUgzQ.png

https://i.imgur.com/XfjtZ5c.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/PVyQopN.jpg

also - https://yfull.com/live/tree/I-Y18331/

How's the haplogroup connected to the demographic information you posted?

Michalis Moriopoulos
05-15-2021, 01:35 PM
Greeks do have Cypriot-like ancestry, it's just that it's not necessarily from Cyprus.

This is obvious by looking at modern Greek DNA vs Mycenaean DNA.

But it'll also be shown with new samples from Classical Greece, some of which actually cluster with Cypriots and Anatolians.

A nice tease!

Exercitus
05-15-2021, 03:01 PM
Well, i hope that it wasn't a serious question !? Do you really think that the Haplogroups of the Greek people (inhabitants that lived in today Greek territory) during e.g. the XII and the XVI centuries were identical !? Do you really think that the Demographic changes are not reflected in the variety and frequencies of Haplogroups !? Do you really think that every person with the Greek flag in yfull is a direct descendant of the ancient Greeks ..!? Genetics without History its nonsensical.

dosas
05-15-2021, 03:53 PM
Well, i hope that it wasn't a serious question !? Do you really think that the Haplogroups of the Greek people (inhabitants that lived in today Greek territory) during e.g. the XII and the XVI centuries were identical !? Do you really think that the Demographic changes are not reflected in the variety and frequencies of Haplogroups !? Do you really think that every person with the Greek flag in yfull is a direct descendant of the ancient Greeks ..!? Genetics without History its nonsensical.

We are aware that I2a-Din is associated with the Slavic Medieval incursions. I am not sure what else we can deduct from your post.

Johnny ola
05-15-2021, 03:57 PM
Well, i hope that it wasn't a serious question !? Do you really think that the Haplogroups of the Greek people (inhabitants that lived in today Greek territory) during e.g. the XII and the XVI centuries were identical !? Do you really think that the Demographic changes are not reflected in the variety and frequencies of Haplogroups !? Do you really think that every person with the Greek flag in yfull is a direct descendant of the ancient Greeks ..!? Genetics without History its nonsensical.

Not,without ancient DNA.Only J2a IMO can be taken serious when it comes to Greek yDNA...but still the subclades are not well known.

Aspar
05-15-2021, 05:11 PM
We are aware that I2a-Din is associated with the Slavic Medieval incursions. I am not sure what else we can deduct from your post.

I'm pretty sure he wanted to make a correlation of the presence of this subclade in Greece with the Albanians looking at his first link although this subclade is certainly not the one for that purpose. You've got much more 'Albanian' looking subclades such as R-Z2705 etc. if you want to track the Albanian presence in Greece. Not to mention that this subclade is only found in South Albania so far so not across all the Albanian ethnic space and furthermore it's much less diverse and frequent there than in Greece.

If I have to pick a region, then Macedonia would be on first place in diversity for I-Y18331. I-A2512*(Kavala), I-Y66192*(North Macedonia), I-Y158878(Almopia/Moglena). So you have two completely different subclades downstream of I-Y18331 found in Macedonia, one I-Y18331* in Zakyntos and one I-Y18331* in South Albania.

There is still a lot of mystery surrounding this particular subclade and whether it was in the Balkans prior to the Slavs or whether it arrived with some particular Slavic tribe. The TMRCA of this clade and it's diversity in the South Balkans makes me believe it was already in the South Balkans prior to the Slavic migrations, probably settling and starting it's expansion first from the region of Macedonia. The sole Jewish clade that has MRCA with the Balkaners is 2100 ybp according to YFULL which also gives credence to the idea that it was already in the Balkans prior the Slavs. Although I believe YFULL underestimates the TMRCA and it's probably a bit older.

I found this article by a certain Greek author named Pandelis Nigdelis about the population of Roman Macedonia at the eve of the Roman occupation:

2.1. The population of Macedonia before the Roman occupation
It was natural that the population of a region with the geopolitical position and the history
of Macedonia would lack the racial homogeneity of the lands of southern Greece.
The presence of non-Greek populations in Macedonia before and after the Roman conquest
is attested in a very few instances by ancient writers. Thus, Hecataeus tells us that,
on the Thermaic Gulf, Chalastra was inhabited by Thracians and Therme had a mixed
population (Greek and Thracian); while Polybius speaks of Thracians settling in the
coastal cities of the kingdom in 183 BC and the consequent movement of their Macedonian
inhabitants into parts of Paeonia. Livy (based on Polybius) tells us that when
Macedonia was occupied there were in Bottiaia “a large number of Galatians and Illyrians,
hard-working peasants”: colonists, that is, who had been transplanted there by
Philip V to renew the population of the area (or, according to another view, prisoners of
war from the campaigns conducted against these peoples by the Macedonian kings, perhaps
working royal estates) 9.

I'm not sure but I believe that under "Galatians" the author thinks probably about the Gauls that invaded Greece in the third century BCE and not the actual Galatians from Central Anatolia. It certainly is very interesting and tempting to make connection of I-Y18331 in Greece with some of the people who came from the north such as the Gauls.

Exercitus
05-15-2021, 09:02 PM
First of all Apsar my intention wasn't to correlate the presence of this subclade (I-Y18331) in Greece with the Albanians, i just wanted to make things clear concerning the unreliability\relativity of the modern (post XIX century) ethnic labeling toward the genuine Genetic data's !! We know perfectly well that, for example, a modern Montenegrin, Sandjakli, south Serbian etc statistically speaking, has a much more highter probability to have a genetic (Y chromosome) affinity with the modern Albanian and Balkan Vlachs because of the 'paleo-balkan' typical Haplogroups !! Greece, North Macedonia, Kosovo, Montenegro during the XII-XVI centuries had experienced great demographic-social changes, because of the medieval Albanian 'demographic boom', the Ottoman Defters of the XV & XVI centuries are a concret evidence of such phenomena!!

No one is putting in discussion the fact that I-Y3120 is a typical eastern-central European Haplogroup, also that is principally correlated with the Slavic peoples, and that the I-Y18331 bearers were a pre-slavic (TMRCA 2100 ybp) input into the Balkans! But it seems to me quite arbitrary to attribute the I-Y18331 to 'ancient Greeks' or 'ancient "Macedonians"! Before the Albanian - Gjirokastra - I-Y18331*, the Polish - Zielinski - I-Y18331*, i have forewarned\'predicted' a Albanian with this precise Haplogroup, and the reasons are quite simple: Historical Facts, the Greek - Zakynthos - I-Y18331* in Yfull is actually the descendant of an Albanian Stradiotti of the beginning of the XVI century, few Historical Facts:

- "Stratia" Zakynthos year 1539, the list of the Albanian Stradiotti that came in Zakynthos - Ξένος - :

https://greeksurnames.blogspot.com/2009/05/15_2904.html?m=1

- The Early Ottoman Peloponnese: A Study in the Light of an Annotated Editio Princeps of the TT10-1/14662 Ottoman Taxation Cadastre (ca. 1460-1463):

If we check the part of Editio Princeps of 1/14662 we will find some interesant Xeno people:
1 - In the Albanian-Arnavudan village Melitena, page 471 - Thoma Xeno, we find also Gon(Gjon) Asteri !!
2 - In the Albanian-Arnavudan village Rovyata, page 486 - Domenika Xeno & Mesara Xeno, both with typical Albanian onomastic, we find also Gin(Gjin) Pelikanos !!
3 - In the Albanian-Arnavudan village Gjerbes\Gerbes, page 492 - Trusha Xeno, with typical Albanian onomastic, we find also Jorgji Haraktino !!
4 - In the Albanian-Arnavudan village Ranbiyaka, page 494 - Perino Xeno, we find also Gon(Gjon) Ranbiyaka!!
etc.

- From page 10-13 here in this article:

http://digital.lib.auth.gr/record/27550/files/arc-2005-6480.pdf?version=1

, of the year 1851 you have the names-surnames-village of the inhabitans of Zakynthos which were allowed to carry guns, you will notice among the Villages such:
-Toponymy:
Βελούσι(Belushi) - Κυψέλη, Κουκέσι(Kukeshi)- Καλλιθέα, Βουγιατο(Bujat), Μπούρα(Burra) -Γερακαριου, Παληοκάντουνον(PalioKatund)-Ροΐδιον, Φλόκα(Floka), Μουζακα(Muzaka)... some of whom doesnt exist anymore they were simply "wiped out" !!
- Surnames\Patronomy:
Bishtbardhi, Bishtqeni, Muzaki, Ziguri, Plesha, Shkurti, Llapa, Bethulka, Kokla, Shurbi, Floka, Shtruza, Bubuka, Peta, Gushko, Rrushi, Gramsha, Suli, Renesi, Mengulla, Griva, Lunxhi, Hekali, Nenga, Trusha, Bozhiki, Likuresi, Kuci, Maneshi, Gllava, Zguri, Kapandriti, Zhiva, Grekuqi, Lopesi, Losha, Vrioni, Trimi, Mileshi, Brati.... Xeno... etc

Those are the descendants of the Albanian(Arvanites) Stradiotti that came massively in Zakynthos during the XIV-XV centuries !!

Logical conclusion: Xeno Clan from Louchi, Zakynthos has Albanian roots!!

Exercitus
05-15-2021, 09:16 PM
Also other Albanian Xeno:

1- Trimi Xenos from village Rolo (name Trimi-Trimas -> Braveheart in Albanian!)

https://i.imgur.com/VkIRpKz.jpg

2- Filip Xenos in the Albanian-Arnavudan village Topolova !!

https://i.imgur.com/ccBUgkK.jpg

I might add also this, I-A2512* https://yfull.com/live/tree/I-A2512*/:

https://i.imgur.com/QiQ0CCd.jpg

Those Villages around where inhabited by Albanian Orthodox people during the XV-XVII centuries, i guess that i will wait for new results !!

dosas
05-16-2021, 08:13 AM
Judging by the tone of your posts, it seems that you think you are making some sort of grande statement/revelation that is supposed to awe us, but you really picked the wrong crowd for this.

This group is very familiar with the history of both Albanophones and Slavophones in the country.

Exercitus
05-16-2021, 12:14 PM
Yeah, i noticed how familiar you are with the history of Albanophones and Slavophones in your country!!!
Although i think that is better to know, even the 'uncomfortable truths' sometime!! Indeed this is the great advantage of Genetics, shedding more light into our genetic past, meanwhile opposing the stereotypes, and the groundless Nationalistic ideas !! Personally i am not a descendant (Y chromosome) of the 'paleo-balkan' lines!

XXD
05-16-2021, 12:50 PM
Yeah, i noticed how familiar you are with the history of Albanophones and Slavophones in your country!!!
Although i think that is better to know, even the 'uncomfortable truths' sometime!! Indeed this is the great advantage of Genetics, shedding more light into our genetic past, meanwhile opposing the stereotypes, and the groundless Nationalistic ideas !! Personally i am not a descendant (Y chromosome) of the 'paleo-balkan' lines!

Are you trolling?

Yes, its very good to escape from nationalist narratives. You should therefore also accept that Albanians have nothing to do genetically or culturally with the Illyrian population of Southern Albania.

Ever wonder why the highest diversity of paleoBalkan lineages exists only in Northern Albania, above the Jireček line?

Johnny ola
05-16-2021, 01:40 PM
Are you trolling?

Yes, its very good to escape from nationalist narratives. You should therefore also accept that Albanians have nothing to do genetically or culturally with the Illyrian population of Southern Albania.

Ever wonder why the highest diversity of paleoBalkan lineages exists only in Northern Albania, above the Jireček line?

What are the paleobalkan lineages btw?

Vasile
05-16-2021, 02:11 PM
I'm pretty sure he wanted to make a correlation of the presence of this subclade in Greece with the Albanians looking at his first link although this subclade is certainly not the one for that purpose. You've got much more 'Albanian' looking subclades such as R-Z2705 etc. if you want to track the Albanian presence in Greece. Not to mention that this subclade is only found in South Albania so far so not across all the Albanian ethnic space and furthermore it's much less diverse and frequent there than in Greece.

If I have to pick a region, then Macedonia would be on first place in diversity for I-Y18331. I-A2512*(Kavala), I-Y66192*(North Macedonia), I-Y158878(Almopia/Moglena). So you have two completely different subclades downstream of I-Y18331 found in Macedonia, one I-Y18331* in Zakyntos and one I-Y18331* in South Albania.

There is still a lot of mystery surrounding this particular subclade and whether it was in the Balkans prior to the Slavs or whether it arrived with some particular Slavic tribe. The TMRCA of this clade and it's diversity in the South Balkans makes me believe it was already in the South Balkans prior to the Slavic migrations, probably settling and starting it's expansion first from the region of Macedonia. The sole Jewish clade that has MRCA with the Balkaners is 2100 ybp according to YFULL which also gives credence to the idea that it was already in the Balkans prior the Slavs. Although I believe YFULL underestimates the TMRCA and it's probably a bit older.

I found this article by a certain Greek author named Pandelis Nigdelis about the population of Roman Macedonia at the eve of the Roman occupation:


I'm not sure but I believe that under "Galatians" the author thinks probably about the Gauls that invaded Greece in the third century BCE and not the actual Galatians from Central Anatolia. It certainly is very interesting and tempting to make connection of I-Y18331 in Greece with some of the people who came from the north such as the Gauls.

Hey, my friend received results and tried morley predictor y-dna, it shows I-CTS10057 as I saw https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-CTS10057/ needs to be Celtic category? He is from Vardar part ( Central region of Country ) - Veleshko.
Also from MyTrueAncestry if this website is legit shows Gallo-Roman?
https://i.imgur.com/KLoZVC2.png
https://i.imgur.com/ePGMb54.png

Also he is closest to Kosovars, aren't they were inhabited by Celts in past??
https://i.imgur.com/Sxz9NlC.png

Exercitus
05-16-2021, 02:28 PM
Are you trolling?

Yes, its very good to escape from nationalist narratives. You should therefore also accept that Albanians have nothing to do genetically or culturally with the Illyrian population of Southern Albania.

Ever wonder why the highest diversity of paleoBalkan lineages exists only in Northern Albania, above the Jireček line?

What are you talking about !? Trolling !? Are you ok !? I just presented some historical infos, if i 'hurt your feeling' that's your own problem !! And please stop that nonsense concerning the linguistic origin of Albanians, you are not qualifed in this field. Check the materials that i posted, that's the only thing that you can do. It's quite boring your diversionary approach, just face the truth !

XXD
05-16-2021, 02:55 PM
What are you talking about !? Trolling !? Are you ok !? I just presented some historical infos, if i 'hurt your feeling' that's your own problem !! And please stop that nonsense concerning the linguistic origin of Albanians, you are not qualifed in this field. Check the materials that i posted, that's the only thing that you can do. It's quite boring your diversionary approach, just face the truth !

I have no bias whatsoever. I paternally descend from Albanians, which is fascinating, and I am exploring my ancestry further with great enthusiasm. This doesn't mean that I believe ridiculous Albanian nationalist claims that are not supported by linguistics or archaeology.

If Albanians do not originate from North Albania/Kosovo, then please explain to me whyE-V13, J2b and R1b-Z2103 show their greatest diversity in precisely those regions (its not me who is saying that, I have been reading the AG posts and the excellent Rrenjet website). Also please explain to me how the Albanian language could stem from Southern Illyrians, when it clearly developed above the Jireček line.

I am not saying that Albanians do not descend from some type of Illyrian or Para-Illyrian peoples (e.g. Dardanians, Daco-Thracians). We simply do not know at the moment. I am also not saying that Albanians are not native to Albania - if you are born somewhere, you are a native. So also don't imply that I support any Slavic propaganda.

ALL I am saying is that archaeological, toponymic, linguistic and genetic evidence suggest that proto-Albanians expanded from the northern parts of Albania, and this goes against many Albanian nationalist claims, which like most such claims in all nations, are frankly bollocks.

Just one more thing. Does the fact that you speak Albanian (I presume), make you an expert on the Albanian language? I speak Greek, but most studies on my language have been made by Germans, Brits, Americans and Slavs.

PS - I have absolutely no problem whether Arvanites comprised 25% or 50% of the late medieval Greek population. I, like most of us on AG, are simply trying to understand the genetic processes that shaped our people and the rest of humanity.

23abc
05-24-2021, 01:52 AM
New genetic communities relevant to Greeks are coming to AncestryDNA very soon. https://www.ancestry.com/cs/ancestrydna-regions-update

https://imgur.com/Biht7Hk.png

https://imgur.com/XWnd2be.png

https://imgur.com/7YooAgW.png

dosas
05-24-2021, 05:30 AM
Western Asia category not including Asia Minor coastline of Turkey :confused::confused::confused:.

Pleiades
05-29-2021, 05:11 PM
What are your thoughts on the mtdna of the female Logkas samples? Could they be of Northern or Eastern European origin instead of local?4482844829
4483244833

dosas
06-06-2021, 06:11 AM
I made a list for Greeks, so the "Slavic pull" can be gauged by the use of a SHG proxy:

list:



Steppe_EN:RUS_Progress_En,0.1143925,0.075657,0.016 2165,0.1157965,-0.0543175,0.0496425,0.000705,-0.0083075,-0.0735265,-0.083829,0.007145,0.0016485,-0.003568,-0.025047,0.0313515,0.0027185,-0.0123865,-0.0033575,-0.0021995,0.006753,-0.006613,0.0029675,0.009798,0.006145,-0.002874
Steppe_EN:RUS_Vonyuchka_En,0.112685,0.081242,0.003 017,0.097869,-0.059396,0.046017,0.00564,-0.010846,-0.07956,-0.085469,0.004547,0.003147,0.000446,-0.017203,0.038002,0.012463,-0.014212,-0.003294,-0.000628,0.005378,0.008235,-0.001113,0.00912,-0.007832,-0.00958
Iran_N/CHG:IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N,0.0430252,0.0664158,-0.1550722,0.0047158,-0.122669,0.0235384,0.017109,-0.0011998,-0.082546,-0.0544158,-0.0028258,-0.0016186,0.0044896,-0.0062756,0.0316498,0.0561384,-0.0054242,0.0068664,0.0136508,-0.0334162,0.00856,-0.028836,-0.0110678,-0.039331,0.0222254
Iran_N/CHG:GEO_CHG,0.091058,0.102568,-0.083344,-0.00323,-0.08617,0.020638,0.024911,-0.001846,-0.128236,-0.074717,-0.006333,0.023979,-0.054856,0.004404,0.026601,-0.03275,0.02386,-0.013429,-0.022249,0.034767,0.033815,-0.007048,0.006532,-0.025787,-0.002036
WHG,0.1246365,0.116278,0.184789,0.189279,0.1546445 ,0.0464355,0.0131605,0.0372675,0.0890705,0.017768,-0.0153455,-0.015811,0.0159065,-0.0030275,0.053338,0.0582065,0.00502,0.016343,-0.0093015,0.055589,0.0944585,0.0111905,-0.049607,-0.160866,0.0170045
SHG:Norway_Mesolithic:Hum1,0.125205,0.071087,0.152 357,0.196062,0.044316,0.06526,-0.004935,0.003231,0.014112,-0.054853,0.010393,-0.015436,0.020812,-0.028626,0.015065,0.03328,-0.002217,0.006461,-0.015335,0.022136,0.018717,0.019784,-0.005423,-0.056514,0.006227
SHG:Norway_Mesolithic:Hum2,0.126344,0.082258,0.158 014,0.185726,0.050779,0.061077,0,0.004384,0.024543 ,-0.048657,0.009581,-0.017834,0.027948,-0.035231,0.027958,0.041633,-0.001695,0.002914,-0.004399,0.03089,0.026079,0.014715,-0.008997,-0.059044,0.000359
SHG:Norway_N_HG:Steigen,0.129758,0.075149,0.156882 ,0.189602,0.053548,0.066655,-0.00047,0.006,0.022702,-0.054489,0.007632,-0.018583,0.031962,-0.024222,0.026058,0.044152,0.002217,0.00114,-0.002011,0.03039,0.024956,0.010016,-0.008997,-0.060852,0.005508
SHG:Sweden_Motala_HG:I0011,0.124067,0.099522,0.168 573,0.188633,0.087093,0.054105,0,0.013153,0.035383 ,-0.04483,0.001786,-0.024129,0.035976,-0.014863,0.028908,0.051975,0.007171,0.003421,-0.009302,0.03164,0.053531,0.011129,-0.019843,-0.092784,0.008263
SHG:Sweden_Motala_HG:I0012,0.135449,0.084289,0.173 476,0.195739,0.092017,0.056894,-0.00752,0.009692,0.050722,-0.038999,-0.000325,-0.018434,0.032557,-0.016928,0.02823,0.052771,0.004303,0,-0.006913,0.035017,0.062016,0.016693,-0.021445,-0.104714,0.001437
SHG:Sweden_Motala_HG:I0013,0.127482,0.088351,0.155 751,0.168607,0.089247,0.049921,-0.00329,0.001615,0.040291,-0.030616,0.00747,-0.015736,0.023488,-0.026699,0.034202,0.04402,0.00326,0.002407,-0.009427,0.048023,0.043922,0.010634,-0.019966,-0.097002,0.010897
SHG:Sweden_Motala_HG:I0014,0.137726,0.083273,0.167 064,0.190571,0.078476,0.056336,-0.004935,0.006,0.036201,-0.038816,0.002273,-0.015436,0.031962,-0.009909,0.034066,0.046672,0.007953,0.006081,-0.005279,0.043771,0.04517,0.011871,-0.026991,-0.098689,0.006107
SHG:Sweden_Motala_HG:I0015,0.137726,0.092413,0.160 653,0.193155,0.085554,0.058567,0.003995,0.01223,0. 025565,-0.041368,-0.002923,-0.019782,0.031219,-0.018304,0.032437,0.051047,0.006128,0.000253,-0.000754,0.040269,0.049163,0.021763,-0.022185,-0.095315,0.008502
Iberomaurusian:Morocco_EN:IAM.5,-0.180979,0.091398,-0.018856,-0.090117,0.030159,-0.05773,-0.076848,0.021461,0.154825,-0.001458,0.024521,-0.025178,0.078047,-0.047755,0.07356,-0.034738,0.007171,-0.060811,-0.147695,0.044771,-0.041053,-0.121427,0.083439,-0.007109,0.027782
Iberomaurusian:Morocco_EN:IAM.7,-0.166182,0.092413,-0.032809,-0.077197,0.026466,-0.061635,-0.081784,0.021461,0.145212,0.010205,0.019974,-0.027725,0.072249,-0.04459,0.065146,-0.032882,0.02712,-0.050169,-0.149832,0.023386,-0.035437,-0.114997,0.08196,-0.012773,0.015448
Iberomaurusian:Morocco_Iberomaurusian:TAF009,-0.162767,0.07718,-0.024513,-0.079135,0.009848,-0.047969,-0.052877,0.020538,0.13294,0.002005,0.025333,-0.026676,0.057978,-0.052985,0.072882,-0.034076,0.002347,-0.05625,-0.130475,0.04152,-0.026204,-0.120314,0.067909,-0.016508,0.012334
Iberomaurusian:Morocco_Iberomaurusian:TAF010,-0.193499,0.083273,-0.03017,-0.088502,0.034776,-0.055499,-0.076378,0.019384,0.163619,0.008565,0.02111,-0.030573,0.07879,-0.046104,0.077496,-0.046141,-0.00665,-0.069805,-0.144176,0.036518,-0.042924,-0.129217,0.07629,-0.015303,0.018322
Iberomaurusian:Morocco_Iberomaurusian:TAF011,-0.194638,0.085304,-0.021873,-0.088825,0.026774,-0.059961,-0.072148,0.019845,0.161165,0.002551,0.016564,-0.035818,0.080574,-0.051196,0.066367,-0.037523,0.012126,-0.071199,-0.14493,0.035767,-0.041427,-0.12662,0.068279,-0.011447,0.018441
Iberomaurusian:Morocco_Iberomaurusian:TAF013,-0.196914,0.082258,-0.026398,-0.088502,0.032314,-0.057173,-0.074733,0.017768,0.156665,0.002369,0.02111,-0.036717,0.077898,-0.052159,0.072746,-0.038584,0.000913,-0.069552,-0.141285,0.039894,-0.035687,-0.125384,0.075428,-0.011206,0.020477
Iberomaurusian:Morocco_Iberomaurusian:TAF014,-0.201467,0.079211,-0.018479,-0.083011,0.034468,-0.055499,-0.076848,0.014538,0.162596,0.002005,0.020461,-0.029374,0.078344,-0.054223,0.066503,-0.025192,0.017602,-0.063724,-0.151215,0.04127,-0.042176,-0.126126,0.077153,-0.014339,0.012693
EHG:I0061,0.127482,0.032497,0.139912,0.205752,-0.016618,0.059961,-0.027026,-0.031383,-0.012067,-0.084558,0.021922,-0.013038,0.025718,-0.051471,0.022665,0.014054,-0.021122,-0.000507,-0.008673,0.019384,-0.004617,0.016322,0.008134,-0.021328,-0.006945
EHG:I0124,0.119514,0.048745,0.113513,0.206398,-0.008001,0.054663,-0.013161,-0.023537,-0.012885,-0.090936,0.014128,-0.018733,0.026164,-0.03647,0.020765,0.013126,-0.005998,-0.000633,-0.00729,0.008879,-0.011729,0.025102,0.009737,-0.02651,-0.009101
EHG:Sidelkino,0.118376,0.039606,0.133501,0.195739, 0.001846,0.054105,-0.019271,-0.018922,-0.0045,-0.071437,0.010068,-0.012139,0.030475,-0.043351,0.027008,0.02201,-0.002738,-0.003927,-0.008547,0.019509,-0.003868,0.011623,0.005546,-0.022413,-0.001796
EHG:UzOO77,0.117238,0.02945,0.126335,0.20446,-0.018773,0.058009,-0.017626,-0.029306,-0.004704,-0.083464,0.019324,-0.016036,0.029881,-0.05037,0.022122,0.030496,-0.001956,0.005448,0.001257,0.017008,-0.003494,0.02201,0.015159,-0.014942,-0.012933
Anatolian_Farmers_N:TUR_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N,0.108701 ,0.1731478,-0.0143308,-0.100534,0.0270818,-0.0402298,-0.0045828,-0.005019,0.02623,0.05745,0.008444,0.0080555,-0.0101832,0.0052298,-0.0352192,-0.0104748,0.0088662,0.0004432,0.005342,-0.0032828,0.0026827,0.0044515,-0.0071795,-0.0038258,-0.0045805
Anatolian_Farmers_N:TUR_Barcin_N,0.1175998,0.18011 8,0.0035312,-0.101158,0.0510443,-0.0483875,-0.0043582,-0.0069334,0.0362287,0.0807473,0.0079718,0.0118803,-0.0234545,0.0004691,-0.0419807,-0.0101913,0.0233091,0.0019866,0.0136954,-0.0097489,-0.0142249,0.0057723,-0.0041232,-0.0031658,-0.0043437
Anatolian_Farmers_N:TUR_Boncuklu_N,0.1142784,0.167 9686,0.0128974,-0.0709954,0.0554564,-0.0378732,-0.0038072,-0.0037382,0.0340328,0.0773408,0.0096784,0.014747,-0.0301784,0.0010736,-0.0390874,-0.0059402,0.0283978,0.0045102,0.0093016,-0.0092796,-0.009583,0.009645,-0.0096132,-0.0117366,-0.003952
Natufians:Levant_Natufian,0.01935,0.135065,-0.039221,-0.135984,0.026774,-0.076137,-0.019036,-0.024691,0.100626,-0.008018,0.02858,-0.019633,0.067343,0.001651,0.022801,0.02612,-0.0103,0.006714,-0.018101,0.041395,-0.004118,-0.003215,-0.014297,-0.011206,0.011975
SSA:Yoruba,-0.6300625,0.0625011,0.022113,0.0167079,0.0005035,0 .0124741,-0.044417,0.0477673,-0.0488813,0.0327694,0.0046205,0.0007904,0.0230561, 0.0009509,0.0125232,-0.0096067,0.0070763,0.0004491,0.006022,-0.00299,0.0015542,0.0023156,-0.0017592,-0.0004711,-0.0004246
Oceanian:Koinanbe,-0.043253,-0.243727,-0.261345,0.308466,0.21204,-0.508975,0.00094,0.004615,-0.041314,-0.014943,-0.019811,0.000749,0.000595,-0.000688,-0.000407,-0.000796,-0.006519,-0.003674,-0.000126,0.002751,0.001872,0.001484,0.004437,-0.000964,0.00012
East Asian_HG:RUS_Devils_Gate_Cave_N,0.0162197,-0.4440402,0.0722185,-0.0511148,-0.0373912,-0.0395328,0.0034075,0.0084802,0.0064935,0.019408,-0.048595,-0.004833,-0.0030848,0.0086702,-0.0096025,-0.0133915,-0.0007825,0.0089,0.0174408,0.0100362,0.008828,-0.027729,-0.0174702,-0.00244,-0.0145795
Greek_Farmers_N:GRC_N,0.118376,0.18178,-0.001131,-0.105622,0.057241,-0.051037,-0.00423,-0.003923,0.039064,0.090207,0.003735,0.013638,-0.019177,-0.007569,-0.046959,-0.004243,0.040028,0.003927,0.004022,-0.013506,-0.012228,0.014096,0.00037,0.001325,-0.004311
Levant_Pre_Pottery_N:Levant_PPNB,0.0725625,0.16502 35,-0.0309238,-0.1380835,0.0323138,-0.062541,-0.012103,-0.0141338,0.0735775,0.0367207,0.0194055,-0.0170098,0.036459,-0.000241,-0.021342,0.0067288,0.0089638,-0.0013935,-0.0054052,0.0192277,-0.0037435,0.007852,-0.0014175,-0.0062658,-0.0047002



https://i.ibb.co/wzrjDpq/Screenshot-2021-06-06-at-09-11-16-Vahaduo-Admixture-JS-21-01.png

tkofi
06-06-2021, 07:16 AM
*****

tkofi
06-06-2021, 07:18 AM
You would think that there would be more information written in regards to Greeks being tribal if they ever actually were. It does seem that the Maniots did have a clannish type of society though.

Just browsing through this thread as I am kind of new the forum. Maniot societies were clan based and patrilinear. I know that due to my heritage but there have also been several studies which can be found online. If you speak Greek search for the Alexakis thesis. Great work

tkofi
06-06-2021, 07:51 AM
I made a list for Greeks, so the "Slavic pull" can be gauged by the use of a SHG proxy:

list:



Steppe_EN:RUS_Progress_En,0.1143925,0.075657,0.016 2165,0.1157965,-0.0543175,0.0496425,0.000705,-0.0083075,-0.0735265,-0.083829,0.007145,0.0016485,-0.003568,-0.025047,0.0313515,0.0027185,-0.0123865,-0.0033575,-0.0021995,0.006753,-0.006613,0.0029675,0.009798,0.006145,-0.002874
Steppe_EN:RUS_Vonyuchka_En,0.112685,0.081242,0.003 017,0.097869,-0.059396,0.046017,0.00564,-0.010846,-0.07956,-0.085469,0.004547,0.003147,0.000446,-0.017203,0.038002,0.012463,-0.014212,-0.003294,-0.000628,0.005378,0.008235,-0.001113,0.00912,-0.007832,-0.00958
Iran_N/CHG:IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N,0.0430252,0.0664158,-0.1550722,0.0047158,-0.122669,0.0235384,0.017109,-0.0011998,-0.082546,-0.0544158,-0.0028258,-0.0016186,0.0044896,-0.0062756,0.0316498,0.0561384,-0.0054242,0.0068664,0.0136508,-0.0334162,0.00856,-0.028836,-0.0110678,-0.039331,0.0222254
Iran_N/CHG:GEO_CHG,0.091058,0.102568,-0.083344,-0.00323,-0.08617,0.020638,0.024911,-0.001846,-0.128236,-0.074717,-0.006333,0.023979,-0.054856,0.004404,0.026601,-0.03275,0.02386,-0.013429,-0.022249,0.034767,0.033815,-0.007048,0.006532,-0.025787,-0.002036
WHG,0.1246365,0.116278,0.184789,0.189279,0.1546445 ,0.0464355,0.0131605,0.0372675,0.0890705,0.017768,-0.0153455,-0.015811,0.0159065,-0.0030275,0.053338,0.0582065,0.00502,0.016343,-0.0093015,0.055589,0.0944585,0.0111905,-0.049607,-0.160866,0.0170045
SHG:Norway_Mesolithic:Hum1,0.125205,0.071087,0.152 357,0.196062,0.044316,0.06526,-0.004935,0.003231,0.014112,-0.054853,0.010393,-0.015436,0.020812,-0.028626,0.015065,0.03328,-0.002217,0.006461,-0.015335,0.022136,0.018717,0.019784,-0.005423,-0.056514,0.006227
SHG:Norway_Mesolithic:Hum2,0.126344,0.082258,0.158 014,0.185726,0.050779,0.061077,0,0.004384,0.024543 ,-0.048657,0.009581,-0.017834,0.027948,-0.035231,0.027958,0.041633,-0.001695,0.002914,-0.004399,0.03089,0.026079,0.014715,-0.008997,-0.059044,0.000359
SHG:Norway_N_HG:Steigen,0.129758,0.075149,0.156882 ,0.189602,0.053548,0.066655,-0.00047,0.006,0.022702,-0.054489,0.007632,-0.018583,0.031962,-0.024222,0.026058,0.044152,0.002217,0.00114,-0.002011,0.03039,0.024956,0.010016,-0.008997,-0.060852,0.005508
SHG:Sweden_Motala_HG:I0011,0.124067,0.099522,0.168 573,0.188633,0.087093,0.054105,0,0.013153,0.035383 ,-0.04483,0.001786,-0.024129,0.035976,-0.014863,0.028908,0.051975,0.007171,0.003421,-0.009302,0.03164,0.053531,0.011129,-0.019843,-0.092784,0.008263
SHG:Sweden_Motala_HG:I0012,0.135449,0.084289,0.173 476,0.195739,0.092017,0.056894,-0.00752,0.009692,0.050722,-0.038999,-0.000325,-0.018434,0.032557,-0.016928,0.02823,0.052771,0.004303,0,-0.006913,0.035017,0.062016,0.016693,-0.021445,-0.104714,0.001437
SHG:Sweden_Motala_HG:I0013,0.127482,0.088351,0.155 751,0.168607,0.089247,0.049921,-0.00329,0.001615,0.040291,-0.030616,0.00747,-0.015736,0.023488,-0.026699,0.034202,0.04402,0.00326,0.002407,-0.009427,0.048023,0.043922,0.010634,-0.019966,-0.097002,0.010897
SHG:Sweden_Motala_HG:I0014,0.137726,0.083273,0.167 064,0.190571,0.078476,0.056336,-0.004935,0.006,0.036201,-0.038816,0.002273,-0.015436,0.031962,-0.009909,0.034066,0.046672,0.007953,0.006081,-0.005279,0.043771,0.04517,0.011871,-0.026991,-0.098689,0.006107
SHG:Sweden_Motala_HG:I0015,0.137726,0.092413,0.160 653,0.193155,0.085554,0.058567,0.003995,0.01223,0. 025565,-0.041368,-0.002923,-0.019782,0.031219,-0.018304,0.032437,0.051047,0.006128,0.000253,-0.000754,0.040269,0.049163,0.021763,-0.022185,-0.095315,0.008502
Iberomaurusian:Morocco_EN:IAM.5,-0.180979,0.091398,-0.018856,-0.090117,0.030159,-0.05773,-0.076848,0.021461,0.154825,-0.001458,0.024521,-0.025178,0.078047,-0.047755,0.07356,-0.034738,0.007171,-0.060811,-0.147695,0.044771,-0.041053,-0.121427,0.083439,-0.007109,0.027782
Iberomaurusian:Morocco_EN:IAM.7,-0.166182,0.092413,-0.032809,-0.077197,0.026466,-0.061635,-0.081784,0.021461,0.145212,0.010205,0.019974,-0.027725,0.072249,-0.04459,0.065146,-0.032882,0.02712,-0.050169,-0.149832,0.023386,-0.035437,-0.114997,0.08196,-0.012773,0.015448
Iberomaurusian:Morocco_Iberomaurusian:TAF009,-0.162767,0.07718,-0.024513,-0.079135,0.009848,-0.047969,-0.052877,0.020538,0.13294,0.002005,0.025333,-0.026676,0.057978,-0.052985,0.072882,-0.034076,0.002347,-0.05625,-0.130475,0.04152,-0.026204,-0.120314,0.067909,-0.016508,0.012334
Iberomaurusian:Morocco_Iberomaurusian:TAF010,-0.193499,0.083273,-0.03017,-0.088502,0.034776,-0.055499,-0.076378,0.019384,0.163619,0.008565,0.02111,-0.030573,0.07879,-0.046104,0.077496,-0.046141,-0.00665,-0.069805,-0.144176,0.036518,-0.042924,-0.129217,0.07629,-0.015303,0.018322
Iberomaurusian:Morocco_Iberomaurusian:TAF011,-0.194638,0.085304,-0.021873,-0.088825,0.026774,-0.059961,-0.072148,0.019845,0.161165,0.002551,0.016564,-0.035818,0.080574,-0.051196,0.066367,-0.037523,0.012126,-0.071199,-0.14493,0.035767,-0.041427,-0.12662,0.068279,-0.011447,0.018441
Iberomaurusian:Morocco_Iberomaurusian:TAF013,-0.196914,0.082258,-0.026398,-0.088502,0.032314,-0.057173,-0.074733,0.017768,0.156665,0.002369,0.02111,-0.036717,0.077898,-0.052159,0.072746,-0.038584,0.000913,-0.069552,-0.141285,0.039894,-0.035687,-0.125384,0.075428,-0.011206,0.020477
Iberomaurusian:Morocco_Iberomaurusian:TAF014,-0.201467,0.079211,-0.018479,-0.083011,0.034468,-0.055499,-0.076848,0.014538,0.162596,0.002005,0.020461,-0.029374,0.078344,-0.054223,0.066503,-0.025192,0.017602,-0.063724,-0.151215,0.04127,-0.042176,-0.126126,0.077153,-0.014339,0.012693
EHG:I0061,0.127482,0.032497,0.139912,0.205752,-0.016618,0.059961,-0.027026,-0.031383,-0.012067,-0.084558,0.021922,-0.013038,0.025718,-0.051471,0.022665,0.014054,-0.021122,-0.000507,-0.008673,0.019384,-0.004617,0.016322,0.008134,-0.021328,-0.006945
EHG:I0124,0.119514,0.048745,0.113513,0.206398,-0.008001,0.054663,-0.013161,-0.023537,-0.012885,-0.090936,0.014128,-0.018733,0.026164,-0.03647,0.020765,0.013126,-0.005998,-0.000633,-0.00729,0.008879,-0.011729,0.025102,0.009737,-0.02651,-0.009101
EHG:Sidelkino,0.118376,0.039606,0.133501,0.195739, 0.001846,0.054105,-0.019271,-0.018922,-0.0045,-0.071437,0.010068,-0.012139,0.030475,-0.043351,0.027008,0.02201,-0.002738,-0.003927,-0.008547,0.019509,-0.003868,0.011623,0.005546,-0.022413,-0.001796
EHG:UzOO77,0.117238,0.02945,0.126335,0.20446,-0.018773,0.058009,-0.017626,-0.029306,-0.004704,-0.083464,0.019324,-0.016036,0.029881,-0.05037,0.022122,0.030496,-0.001956,0.005448,0.001257,0.017008,-0.003494,0.02201,0.015159,-0.014942,-0.012933
Anatolian_Farmers_N:TUR_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N,0.108701 ,0.1731478,-0.0143308,-0.100534,0.0270818,-0.0402298,-0.0045828,-0.005019,0.02623,0.05745,0.008444,0.0080555,-0.0101832,0.0052298,-0.0352192,-0.0104748,0.0088662,0.0004432,0.005342,-0.0032828,0.0026827,0.0044515,-0.0071795,-0.0038258,-0.0045805
Anatolian_Farmers_N:TUR_Barcin_N,0.1175998,0.18011 8,0.0035312,-0.101158,0.0510443,-0.0483875,-0.0043582,-0.0069334,0.0362287,0.0807473,0.0079718,0.0118803,-0.0234545,0.0004691,-0.0419807,-0.0101913,0.0233091,0.0019866,0.0136954,-0.0097489,-0.0142249,0.0057723,-0.0041232,-0.0031658,-0.0043437
Anatolian_Farmers_N:TUR_Boncuklu_N,0.1142784,0.167 9686,0.0128974,-0.0709954,0.0554564,-0.0378732,-0.0038072,-0.0037382,0.0340328,0.0773408,0.0096784,0.014747,-0.0301784,0.0010736,-0.0390874,-0.0059402,0.0283978,0.0045102,0.0093016,-0.0092796,-0.009583,0.009645,-0.0096132,-0.0117366,-0.003952
Natufians:Levant_Natufian,0.01935,0.135065,-0.039221,-0.135984,0.026774,-0.076137,-0.019036,-0.024691,0.100626,-0.008018,0.02858,-0.019633,0.067343,0.001651,0.022801,0.02612,-0.0103,0.006714,-0.018101,0.041395,-0.004118,-0.003215,-0.014297,-0.011206,0.011975
SSA:Yoruba,-0.6300625,0.0625011,0.022113,0.0167079,0.0005035,0 .0124741,-0.044417,0.0477673,-0.0488813,0.0327694,0.0046205,0.0007904,0.0230561, 0.0009509,0.0125232,-0.0096067,0.0070763,0.0004491,0.006022,-0.00299,0.0015542,0.0023156,-0.0017592,-0.0004711,-0.0004246
Oceanian:Koinanbe,-0.043253,-0.243727,-0.261345,0.308466,0.21204,-0.508975,0.00094,0.004615,-0.041314,-0.014943,-0.019811,0.000749,0.000595,-0.000688,-0.000407,-0.000796,-0.006519,-0.003674,-0.000126,0.002751,0.001872,0.001484,0.004437,-0.000964,0.00012
East Asian_HG:RUS_Devils_Gate_Cave_N,0.0162197,-0.4440402,0.0722185,-0.0511148,-0.0373912,-0.0395328,0.0034075,0.0084802,0.0064935,0.019408,-0.048595,-0.004833,-0.0030848,0.0086702,-0.0096025,-0.0133915,-0.0007825,0.0089,0.0174408,0.0100362,0.008828,-0.027729,-0.0174702,-0.00244,-0.0145795
Greek_Farmers_N:GRC_N,0.118376,0.18178,-0.001131,-0.105622,0.057241,-0.051037,-0.00423,-0.003923,0.039064,0.090207,0.003735,0.013638,-0.019177,-0.007569,-0.046959,-0.004243,0.040028,0.003927,0.004022,-0.013506,-0.012228,0.014096,0.00037,0.001325,-0.004311
Levant_Pre_Pottery_N:Levant_PPNB,0.0725625,0.16502 35,-0.0309238,-0.1380835,0.0323138,-0.062541,-0.012103,-0.0141338,0.0735775,0.0367207,0.0194055,-0.0170098,0.036459,-0.000241,-0.021342,0.0067288,0.0089638,-0.0013935,-0.0054052,0.0192277,-0.0037435,0.007852,-0.0014175,-0.0062658,-0.0047002



https://i.ibb.co/wzrjDpq/Screenshot-2021-06-06-at-09-11-16-Vahaduo-Admixture-JS-21-01.png

Very informative analysis Dosa.

Dont mean to be greedy but do we have any 100% Maniot samples to add in there as a separate pop reference?

dosas
06-06-2021, 08:55 AM
Not that I know, but I attached the list in the previous post, so feel free to use it as you see fit.

bovefex
06-07-2021, 04:36 PM
I made a list for Greeks, so the "Slavic pull" can be gauged by the use of a SHG proxy:

list:



Steppe_EN:RUS_Progress_En,0.1143925,0.075657,0.016 2165,0.1157965,-0.0543175,0.0496425,0.000705,-0.0083075,-0.0735265,-0.083829,0.007145,0.0016485,-0.003568,-0.025047,0.0313515,0.0027185,-0.0123865,-0.0033575,-0.0021995,0.006753,-0.006613,0.0029675,0.009798,0.006145,-0.002874
Steppe_EN:RUS_Vonyuchka_En,0.112685,0.081242,0.003 017,0.097869,-0.059396,0.046017,0.00564,-0.010846,-0.07956,-0.085469,0.004547,0.003147,0.000446,-0.017203,0.038002,0.012463,-0.014212,-0.003294,-0.000628,0.005378,0.008235,-0.001113,0.00912,-0.007832,-0.00958
Iran_N/CHG:IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N,0.0430252,0.0664158,-0.1550722,0.0047158,-0.122669,0.0235384,0.017109,-0.0011998,-0.082546,-0.0544158,-0.0028258,-0.0016186,0.0044896,-0.0062756,0.0316498,0.0561384,-0.0054242,0.0068664,0.0136508,-0.0334162,0.00856,-0.028836,-0.0110678,-0.039331,0.0222254
Iran_N/CHG:GEO_CHG,0.091058,0.102568,-0.083344,-0.00323,-0.08617,0.020638,0.024911,-0.001846,-0.128236,-0.074717,-0.006333,0.023979,-0.054856,0.004404,0.026601,-0.03275,0.02386,-0.013429,-0.022249,0.034767,0.033815,-0.007048,0.006532,-0.025787,-0.002036
WHG,0.1246365,0.116278,0.184789,0.189279,0.1546445 ,0.0464355,0.0131605,0.0372675,0.0890705,0.017768,-0.0153455,-0.015811,0.0159065,-0.0030275,0.053338,0.0582065,0.00502,0.016343,-0.0093015,0.055589,0.0944585,0.0111905,-0.049607,-0.160866,0.0170045
SHG:Norway_Mesolithic:Hum1,0.125205,0.071087,0.152 357,0.196062,0.044316,0.06526,-0.004935,0.003231,0.014112,-0.054853,0.010393,-0.015436,0.020812,-0.028626,0.015065,0.03328,-0.002217,0.006461,-0.015335,0.022136,0.018717,0.019784,-0.005423,-0.056514,0.006227
SHG:Norway_Mesolithic:Hum2,0.126344,0.082258,0.158 014,0.185726,0.050779,0.061077,0,0.004384,0.024543 ,-0.048657,0.009581,-0.017834,0.027948,-0.035231,0.027958,0.041633,-0.001695,0.002914,-0.004399,0.03089,0.026079,0.014715,-0.008997,-0.059044,0.000359
SHG:Norway_N_HG:Steigen,0.129758,0.075149,0.156882 ,0.189602,0.053548,0.066655,-0.00047,0.006,0.022702,-0.054489,0.007632,-0.018583,0.031962,-0.024222,0.026058,0.044152,0.002217,0.00114,-0.002011,0.03039,0.024956,0.010016,-0.008997,-0.060852,0.005508
SHG:Sweden_Motala_HG:I0011,0.124067,0.099522,0.168 573,0.188633,0.087093,0.054105,0,0.013153,0.035383 ,-0.04483,0.001786,-0.024129,0.035976,-0.014863,0.028908,0.051975,0.007171,0.003421,-0.009302,0.03164,0.053531,0.011129,-0.019843,-0.092784,0.008263
SHG:Sweden_Motala_HG:I0012,0.135449,0.084289,0.173 476,0.195739,0.092017,0.056894,-0.00752,0.009692,0.050722,-0.038999,-0.000325,-0.018434,0.032557,-0.016928,0.02823,0.052771,0.004303,0,-0.006913,0.035017,0.062016,0.016693,-0.021445,-0.104714,0.001437
SHG:Sweden_Motala_HG:I0013,0.127482,0.088351,0.155 751,0.168607,0.089247,0.049921,-0.00329,0.001615,0.040291,-0.030616,0.00747,-0.015736,0.023488,-0.026699,0.034202,0.04402,0.00326,0.002407,-0.009427,0.048023,0.043922,0.010634,-0.019966,-0.097002,0.010897
SHG:Sweden_Motala_HG:I0014,0.137726,0.083273,0.167 064,0.190571,0.078476,0.056336,-0.004935,0.006,0.036201,-0.038816,0.002273,-0.015436,0.031962,-0.009909,0.034066,0.046672,0.007953,0.006081,-0.005279,0.043771,0.04517,0.011871,-0.026991,-0.098689,0.006107
SHG:Sweden_Motala_HG:I0015,0.137726,0.092413,0.160 653,0.193155,0.085554,0.058567,0.003995,0.01223,0. 025565,-0.041368,-0.002923,-0.019782,0.031219,-0.018304,0.032437,0.051047,0.006128,0.000253,-0.000754,0.040269,0.049163,0.021763,-0.022185,-0.095315,0.008502
Iberomaurusian:Morocco_EN:IAM.5,-0.180979,0.091398,-0.018856,-0.090117,0.030159,-0.05773,-0.076848,0.021461,0.154825,-0.001458,0.024521,-0.025178,0.078047,-0.047755,0.07356,-0.034738,0.007171,-0.060811,-0.147695,0.044771,-0.041053,-0.121427,0.083439,-0.007109,0.027782
Iberomaurusian:Morocco_EN:IAM.7,-0.166182,0.092413,-0.032809,-0.077197,0.026466,-0.061635,-0.081784,0.021461,0.145212,0.010205,0.019974,-0.027725,0.072249,-0.04459,0.065146,-0.032882,0.02712,-0.050169,-0.149832,0.023386,-0.035437,-0.114997,0.08196,-0.012773,0.015448
Iberomaurusian:Morocco_Iberomaurusian:TAF009,-0.162767,0.07718,-0.024513,-0.079135,0.009848,-0.047969,-0.052877,0.020538,0.13294,0.002005,0.025333,-0.026676,0.057978,-0.052985,0.072882,-0.034076,0.002347,-0.05625,-0.130475,0.04152,-0.026204,-0.120314,0.067909,-0.016508,0.012334
Iberomaurusian:Morocco_Iberomaurusian:TAF010,-0.193499,0.083273,-0.03017,-0.088502,0.034776,-0.055499,-0.076378,0.019384,0.163619,0.008565,0.02111,-0.030573,0.07879,-0.046104,0.077496,-0.046141,-0.00665,-0.069805,-0.144176,0.036518,-0.042924,-0.129217,0.07629,-0.015303,0.018322
Iberomaurusian:Morocco_Iberomaurusian:TAF011,-0.194638,0.085304,-0.021873,-0.088825,0.026774,-0.059961,-0.072148,0.019845,0.161165,0.002551,0.016564,-0.035818,0.080574,-0.051196,0.066367,-0.037523,0.012126,-0.071199,-0.14493,0.035767,-0.041427,-0.12662,0.068279,-0.011447,0.018441
Iberomaurusian:Morocco_Iberomaurusian:TAF013,-0.196914,0.082258,-0.026398,-0.088502,0.032314,-0.057173,-0.074733,0.017768,0.156665,0.002369,0.02111,-0.036717,0.077898,-0.052159,0.072746,-0.038584,0.000913,-0.069552,-0.141285,0.039894,-0.035687,-0.125384,0.075428,-0.011206,0.020477
Iberomaurusian:Morocco_Iberomaurusian:TAF014,-0.201467,0.079211,-0.018479,-0.083011,0.034468,-0.055499,-0.076848,0.014538,0.162596,0.002005,0.020461,-0.029374,0.078344,-0.054223,0.066503,-0.025192,0.017602,-0.063724,-0.151215,0.04127,-0.042176,-0.126126,0.077153,-0.014339,0.012693
EHG:I0061,0.127482,0.032497,0.139912,0.205752,-0.016618,0.059961,-0.027026,-0.031383,-0.012067,-0.084558,0.021922,-0.013038,0.025718,-0.051471,0.022665,0.014054,-0.021122,-0.000507,-0.008673,0.019384,-0.004617,0.016322,0.008134,-0.021328,-0.006945
EHG:I0124,0.119514,0.048745,0.113513,0.206398,-0.008001,0.054663,-0.013161,-0.023537,-0.012885,-0.090936,0.014128,-0.018733,0.026164,-0.03647,0.020765,0.013126,-0.005998,-0.000633,-0.00729,0.008879,-0.011729,0.025102,0.009737,-0.02651,-0.009101
EHG:Sidelkino,0.118376,0.039606,0.133501,0.195739, 0.001846,0.054105,-0.019271,-0.018922,-0.0045,-0.071437,0.010068,-0.012139,0.030475,-0.043351,0.027008,0.02201,-0.002738,-0.003927,-0.008547,0.019509,-0.003868,0.011623,0.005546,-0.022413,-0.001796
EHG:UzOO77,0.117238,0.02945,0.126335,0.20446,-0.018773,0.058009,-0.017626,-0.029306,-0.004704,-0.083464,0.019324,-0.016036,0.029881,-0.05037,0.022122,0.030496,-0.001956,0.005448,0.001257,0.017008,-0.003494,0.02201,0.015159,-0.014942,-0.012933
Anatolian_Farmers_N:TUR_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N,0.108701 ,0.1731478,-0.0143308,-0.100534,0.0270818,-0.0402298,-0.0045828,-0.005019,0.02623,0.05745,0.008444,0.0080555,-0.0101832,0.0052298,-0.0352192,-0.0104748,0.0088662,0.0004432,0.005342,-0.0032828,0.0026827,0.0044515,-0.0071795,-0.0038258,-0.0045805
Anatolian_Farmers_N:TUR_Barcin_N,0.1175998,0.18011 8,0.0035312,-0.101158,0.0510443,-0.0483875,-0.0043582,-0.0069334,0.0362287,0.0807473,0.0079718,0.0118803,-0.0234545,0.0004691,-0.0419807,-0.0101913,0.0233091,0.0019866,0.0136954,-0.0097489,-0.0142249,0.0057723,-0.0041232,-0.0031658,-0.0043437
Anatolian_Farmers_N:TUR_Boncuklu_N,0.1142784,0.167 9686,0.0128974,-0.0709954,0.0554564,-0.0378732,-0.0038072,-0.0037382,0.0340328,0.0773408,0.0096784,0.014747,-0.0301784,0.0010736,-0.0390874,-0.0059402,0.0283978,0.0045102,0.0093016,-0.0092796,-0.009583,0.009645,-0.0096132,-0.0117366,-0.003952
Natufians:Levant_Natufian,0.01935,0.135065,-0.039221,-0.135984,0.026774,-0.076137,-0.019036,-0.024691,0.100626,-0.008018,0.02858,-0.019633,0.067343,0.001651,0.022801,0.02612,-0.0103,0.006714,-0.018101,0.041395,-0.004118,-0.003215,-0.014297,-0.011206,0.011975
SSA:Yoruba,-0.6300625,0.0625011,0.022113,0.0167079,0.0005035,0 .0124741,-0.044417,0.0477673,-0.0488813,0.0327694,0.0046205,0.0007904,0.0230561, 0.0009509,0.0125232,-0.0096067,0.0070763,0.0004491,0.006022,-0.00299,0.0015542,0.0023156,-0.0017592,-0.0004711,-0.0004246
Oceanian:Koinanbe,-0.043253,-0.243727,-0.261345,0.308466,0.21204,-0.508975,0.00094,0.004615,-0.041314,-0.014943,-0.019811,0.000749,0.000595,-0.000688,-0.000407,-0.000796,-0.006519,-0.003674,-0.000126,0.002751,0.001872,0.001484,0.004437,-0.000964,0.00012
East Asian_HG:RUS_Devils_Gate_Cave_N,0.0162197,-0.4440402,0.0722185,-0.0511148,-0.0373912,-0.0395328,0.0034075,0.0084802,0.0064935,0.019408,-0.048595,-0.004833,-0.0030848,0.0086702,-0.0096025,-0.0133915,-0.0007825,0.0089,0.0174408,0.0100362,0.008828,-0.027729,-0.0174702,-0.00244,-0.0145795
Greek_Farmers_N:GRC_N,0.118376,0.18178,-0.001131,-0.105622,0.057241,-0.051037,-0.00423,-0.003923,0.039064,0.090207,0.003735,0.013638,-0.019177,-0.007569,-0.046959,-0.004243,0.040028,0.003927,0.004022,-0.013506,-0.012228,0.014096,0.00037,0.001325,-0.004311
Levant_Pre_Pottery_N:Levant_PPNB,0.0725625,0.16502 35,-0.0309238,-0.1380835,0.0323138,-0.062541,-0.012103,-0.0141338,0.0735775,0.0367207,0.0194055,-0.0170098,0.036459,-0.000241,-0.021342,0.0067288,0.0089638,-0.0013935,-0.0054052,0.0192277,-0.0037435,0.007852,-0.0014175,-0.0062658,-0.0047002



https://i.ibb.co/wzrjDpq/Screenshot-2021-06-06-at-09-11-16-Vahaduo-Admixture-JS-21-01.png

Hi dosas, do you mind telling me what the difference is between Steppe_EN and Yamnaya_RUS_Samara and why you chose one over the other? Also, how is SHG (which I assume is Scandinavian Hunter Gatherer?) supposed to gauge Slavic pull? Do Slavs posses SHG ancestry?

dosas
06-07-2021, 05:45 PM
Hi dosas, do you mind telling me what the difference is between Steppe_EN and Yamnaya_RUS_Samara and why you chose one over the other? Also, how is SHG (which I assume is Scandinavian Hunter Gatherer?) supposed to gauge Slavic pull? Do Slavs posses SHG ancestry?


These are the Steppe_EN samples: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-018-08220-8



Target: Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
Distance: 3.2390% / 0.03238956
80.4 Steppe_EN
14.6 SHG
5.0 Anatolian_Farmers_N




SHG is a proxy for admixture present in Slavic populations in the historical context mentioned but not necessarily pre-existing in Greece, at least not in the levels you can see it in the neighboring groups.


https://i.ibb.co/r7LdVZj/Screenshot-2021-06-07-at-20-40-07-Vahaduo-Admixture-JS-21-01.png


VS


https://i.ibb.co/9T4JJPx/Screenshot-2021-06-07-at-20-45-01-Vahaduo-Admixture-JS-21-01.png

bovefex
06-07-2021, 06:08 PM
These are the Steppe_EN samples: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-018-08220-8



Target: Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
Distance: 3.2390% / 0.03238956
80.4 Steppe_EN
14.6 SHG
5.0 Anatolian_Farmers_N




SHG is a proxy for admixture present in Slavic populations in the historical context mentioned but not necessarily pre-existing in Greece, at least not in the levels you can see it in the neighboring groups.


https://i.ibb.co/r7LdVZj/Screenshot-2021-06-07-at-20-40-07-Vahaduo-Admixture-JS-21-01.png


VS


https://i.ibb.co/9T4JJPx/Screenshot-2021-06-07-at-20-45-01-Vahaduo-Admixture-JS-21-01.png

Thank you for the explanation. Are the Steppe_EN samples then pre-proto-Indo-European (Early Bronze Age)? I also saw things about Steppe Maykop in the article, but I do not know how Steppe Maykop differs from Yamnaya_RUS_Samara and UKR_Catacomb.

I have also noticed that the usage of Steppe_EN (along with SHG) seems to slightly inflate Steppe ancestry in some populations while severely deflating it for others (to make room for SHG). Then, is this the more accurate Steppe pop, or Yamnaya_RUS_Samara or UKR_Catacomb?

dosas
06-07-2021, 06:15 PM
I have also noticed that the usage of Steppe_EN (along with SHG) seems to slightly inflate Steppe ancestry in some populations while severely deflating it for others (to make room for SHG). Then, is this the more accurate Steppe pop, or Yamnaya_RUS_Samara or UKR_Catacomb?


Imo, it depends on the historical context that you use them and what you are trying to measure. Groups with low/zero relevant HG admix. (Greeks for example, I assume Turks, Armenians and others) have anti-Samara bias, so you should pick a proxy that makes more sense in that historical context to gauge their component breakdown. There is not one size fits all.

bovefex
06-07-2021, 06:17 PM
Imo, it depends on the historical context that you use them and what you are trying to measure. Groups with low/zero relevant HG admix. (Greeks for example, I assume Turks, Armenians and others) have anti-Samara bias, so you should pick a proxy that makes more sense in that historical context to gauge their component breakdown. There is not one size fits all.

What do you mean with anti-Samara bias, and which relevant HG are you referring to?

dosas
06-07-2021, 06:55 PM
What do you mean with anti-Samara bias, and which relevant HG are you referring to?

HGs from Eastern and Northern Europe. Greeks with no such admixture (such as Greeks with relatively low or no Slavic Medieval admixture in my hypothesis) prefer other Steppe proxies to Samara which has such additional HG admixture.

23abc
06-07-2021, 08:51 PM
It's very hard to model the Slavic drift of Greece and the Balkans. I will share my alternate model here, and others should share there's too:

https://imgur.com/d7OfifK.png


IRAN_N,0.0439033,0.0664447,-0.15365,0.00138429,-0.121737,0.0217533,0.0140671,-0.00204386,-0.0825984,-0.0566496,-0.00229686,-0.00254771,0.00416243,-0.00825743,0.0304401,0.0567861,-0.00856814,0.00743843,0.0127313,-0.0345703,0.00702343,-0.02572,-0.00982471,-0.0371999,0.0224786
NATFUFIAN,0.01935,0.135065,-0.039221,-0.135984,0.026774,-0.076137,-0.019036,-0.024691,0.100626,-0.008018,0.02858,-0.019633,0.067343,0.001651,0.022801,0.02612,-0.0103,0.006714,-0.018101,0.041395,-0.004118,-0.003215,-0.014297,-0.011206,0.011975
STEPPE,0.122319,0.0880609,0.0414564,0.111984,-0.0301704,0.0452102,0.00308021,-0.00256309,-0.0570439,-0.0754978,0.000394339,-0.000390786,-0.00110439,-0.0217346,0.0357138,0.0104201,-0.00641916,-0.00208362,-0.00299882,0.010342,-0.00436507,0.00158757,0.0119727,0.0209753,-0.00379341
CHG,0.091058,0.102568,-0.083344,-0.00323,-0.08617,0.020638,0.024911,-0.001846,-0.128236,-0.074717,-0.006333,0.023979,-0.054856,0.004404,0.026601,-0.03275,0.02386,-0.013429,-0.022249,0.034767,0.033815,-0.007048,0.006532,-0.025787,-0.002036
WHG,0.1246365,0.116278,0.184789,0.189279,0.1546445 ,0.0464355,0.0131605,0.0372675,0.0890705,0.017768,-0.0153455,-0.015811,0.0159065,-0.0030275,0.053338,0.0582065,0.00502,0.016343,-0.0093015,0.055589,0.0944585,0.0111905,-0.049607,-0.160866,0.0170045
TUR_Barcin_N,0.1175998,0.180118,0.0035312,-0.101158,0.0510443,-0.0483875,-0.0043582,-0.0069334,0.0362287,0.0807473,0.0079718,0.0118803,-0.0234545,0.0004691,-0.0419807,-0.0101913,0.0233091,0.0019866,0.0136954,-0.0097489,-0.0142249,0.0057723,-0.0041232,-0.0031658,-0.0043437
SLAVIC_DRIFT,0.134311,0.121525,0.107731,0.113051,0 .0518047,0.0485273,0.0135523,0.0236913,-0.00218167,-0.0545497,0.000433,-0.021231,0.0373637,0.0478927,-0.0186843,-0.007867,-0.00160833,0,-0.00100533,0.00483567,-0.00653033,-0.004328,0.00936667,-0.0187577,0.00203533

As you can see, it isn't perfect, as populations that shouldn't score the Slavic Drift still are scoring small amounts (HRV_IA and Helladic_MBA still score some). But, what you'll find is that most Europeans that really don't have any Slavic admixture (Spanish, Italian, etc.) will mostly score Barcin + Steppe, without any Slavic Drift. Populations that have high steppe but do not have any Slavic drift will unfortunately still score some Slavic Drift in this model. But populations which really do have Slavic Drift, will score high amounts and their ratio of Slavic Drift : Steppe will show the extent of Slavic admixture in the population.

Understand that the model isn't attempting to show the actual level of the final components. The model is simply trying to measure the impact of Slavic Drift in populations. And it can show that the Balkans isn't the same as paleo-Balkan HRV_IA, GRC_Helladic_MBA and the high steppe found in areas is due to recent Slavic input, not due to admixture that has persisted before that.

But hopefully in the future this topic will be tackled properly by academics.

Coldmountains
06-07-2021, 08:57 PM
qpAdm is actually not showing SHG ancestry among Slavs and the HG ancestry of Slavs is WHG-like. We already have some likely Proto-Slavic-like genomes like AV2 or Krakauer_Berg_07, which are way more relevant for modelling Slavic ancestry among Greeks than some Neolithic or BA samples which likely are not even direct ancestors of Slavs.