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Sorcelow
06-07-2021, 09:04 PM
It's very hard to model the Slavic drift of Greece and the Balkans. I will share my alternate model here, and others should share there's too:

https://imgur.com/d7OfifK.png


IRAN_N,0.0439033,0.0664447,-0.15365,0.00138429,-0.121737,0.0217533,0.0140671,-0.00204386,-0.0825984,-0.0566496,-0.00229686,-0.00254771,0.00416243,-0.00825743,0.0304401,0.0567861,-0.00856814,0.00743843,0.0127313,-0.0345703,0.00702343,-0.02572,-0.00982471,-0.0371999,0.0224786
NATFUFIAN,0.01935,0.135065,-0.039221,-0.135984,0.026774,-0.076137,-0.019036,-0.024691,0.100626,-0.008018,0.02858,-0.019633,0.067343,0.001651,0.022801,0.02612,-0.0103,0.006714,-0.018101,0.041395,-0.004118,-0.003215,-0.014297,-0.011206,0.011975
STEPPE,0.122319,0.0880609,0.0414564,0.111984,-0.0301704,0.0452102,0.00308021,-0.00256309,-0.0570439,-0.0754978,0.000394339,-0.000390786,-0.00110439,-0.0217346,0.0357138,0.0104201,-0.00641916,-0.00208362,-0.00299882,0.010342,-0.00436507,0.00158757,0.0119727,0.0209753,-0.00379341
CHG,0.091058,0.102568,-0.083344,-0.00323,-0.08617,0.020638,0.024911,-0.001846,-0.128236,-0.074717,-0.006333,0.023979,-0.054856,0.004404,0.026601,-0.03275,0.02386,-0.013429,-0.022249,0.034767,0.033815,-0.007048,0.006532,-0.025787,-0.002036
WHG,0.1246365,0.116278,0.184789,0.189279,0.1546445 ,0.0464355,0.0131605,0.0372675,0.0890705,0.017768,-0.0153455,-0.015811,0.0159065,-0.0030275,0.053338,0.0582065,0.00502,0.016343,-0.0093015,0.055589,0.0944585,0.0111905,-0.049607,-0.160866,0.0170045
TUR_Barcin_N,0.1175998,0.180118,0.0035312,-0.101158,0.0510443,-0.0483875,-0.0043582,-0.0069334,0.0362287,0.0807473,0.0079718,0.0118803,-0.0234545,0.0004691,-0.0419807,-0.0101913,0.0233091,0.0019866,0.0136954,-0.0097489,-0.0142249,0.0057723,-0.0041232,-0.0031658,-0.0043437
SLAVIC_DRIFT,0.134311,0.121525,0.107731,0.113051,0 .0518047,0.0485273,0.0135523,0.0236913,-0.00218167,-0.0545497,0.000433,-0.021231,0.0373637,0.0478927,-0.0186843,-0.007867,-0.00160833,0,-0.00100533,0.00483567,-0.00653033,-0.004328,0.00936667,-0.0187577,0.00203533

As you can see, it isn't perfect, as populations that shouldn't score the Slavic Drift still are scoring small amounts (HRV_IA and Helladic_MBA still score some). But, what you'll find is that most Europeans that really don't have any Slavic admixture (Spanish, Italian, etc.) will mostly score Barcin + Steppe, without any Slavic Drift. Populations that have high steppe but do not have any Slavic drift will unfortunately still score some Slavic Drift in this model. But populations which really do have Slavic Drift, will score high amounts and their ratio of Slavic Drift : Steppe will show the extent of Slavic admixture in the population.

Understand that the model isn't attempting to show the actual level of the final components. The model is simply trying to measure the impact of Slavic Drift in populations. And it can show that the Balkans isn't the same as paleo-Balkan HRV_IA, GRC_Helladic_MBA and the high steppe found in areas is due to recent Slavic input, not due to admixture that has persisted before that.

But hopefully in the future this topic will be tackled properly by academics.


I created these coordinates a while back to simulate the native HG portion of the Baltic_BA samples. In modern populations, it peaks among Latvians and Lithuanians, and radiates into southeastern Europe. Its basically absent in southwestern Europe, ie Basques score none of it. It gauges balto-slavic drift quite nicely, in my honest opinion. You will notice that Mycenaeans and BGR_IA, despite having significant steppe ancestry, score none of it while modern mainlanders score around 7-8%

Baltic_HG,0.149868802,0.136380306,0.209730848,0.19 0840117,0.156106048,0.072437149,0.038002007,0.0636 88237,0.046382364,-0.072430537,-0.000902502,-0.05876715,0.106677275,0.144928109,-0.071019374,-0.005004616,0.021966607,0.003931878,-0.009757506,0.005758381,0.003759276,-0.024595198,0.007626296,-0.077723948,0.014953698

23abc
06-07-2021, 09:14 PM
I created these coordinates a while back to simulate the native HG portion of the Baltic_BA samples. In modern populations, it peaks among Latvians and Lithuanians, and radiates into southeastern Europe. Its basically absent in southwestern Europe, ie Basques score none of it. It gauges balto-slavic drift quite nicely, in my honest opinion. You will notice that Mycenaeans and BGR_IA, despite having significant steppe ancestry, score none of it while modern mainlanders score around 7-8%

Baltic_HG,0.149868802,0.136380306,0.209730848,0.19 0840117,0.156106048,0.072437149,0.038002007,0.0636 88237,0.046382364,-0.072430537,-0.000902502,-0.05876715,0.106677275,0.144928109,-0.071019374,-0.005004616,0.021966607,0.003931878,-0.009757506,0.005758381,0.003759276,-0.024595198,0.007626296,-0.077723948,0.014953698

Thank you. I have played around with stuff like in the past also. It can give a good gauge at the final level of admixture.

There is a sample ROU_C_o which seems to be half Hunter-Gatherer and if half ROU_C is subtracted it also can act as a good proxy.

I don't think we can really measure it with the amateur tools like G25, and only the academics can show us accurate amounts with a solid study.

dosas
06-08-2021, 04:55 AM
qpAdm is actually not showing SHG ancestry among Slavs and the HG ancestry of Slavs is WHG-like. We already have some likely Proto-Slavic-like genomes like AV2 or Krakauer_Berg_07, which are way more relevant for modelling Slavic ancestry among Greeks than some Neolithic or BA samples which likely are not even direct ancestors of Slavs.


Interesting, why do you think G25 prefers it, when both present in the list.

Tomenable
06-08-2021, 09:52 AM
I would like to see more DNA samples from the Ionian Islands. I've seen from Lefkada.

Johnny ola
06-08-2021, 09:58 AM
I would like to see more DNA samples from the Ionian Islands. I've seen from Lefkada.

Can you share Lefkada results?They plot like mainland Greeks?

Tomenable
06-08-2021, 10:47 AM
Can you share Lefkada results? They plot like mainland Greeks?

No, closer to other Insular Greeks.

Pleiades
06-08-2021, 11:36 AM
It's very hard to model the Slavic drift of Greece and the Balkans. I will share my alternate model here, and others should share there's too:

https://imgur.com/d7OfifK.png


IRAN_N,0.0439033,0.0664447,-0.15365,0.00138429,-0.121737,0.0217533,0.0140671,-0.00204386,-0.0825984,-0.0566496,-0.00229686,-0.00254771,0.00416243,-0.00825743,0.0304401,0.0567861,-0.00856814,0.00743843,0.0127313,-0.0345703,0.00702343,-0.02572,-0.00982471,-0.0371999,0.0224786
NATFUFIAN,0.01935,0.135065,-0.039221,-0.135984,0.026774,-0.076137,-0.019036,-0.024691,0.100626,-0.008018,0.02858,-0.019633,0.067343,0.001651,0.022801,0.02612,-0.0103,0.006714,-0.018101,0.041395,-0.004118,-0.003215,-0.014297,-0.011206,0.011975
STEPPE,0.122319,0.0880609,0.0414564,0.111984,-0.0301704,0.0452102,0.00308021,-0.00256309,-0.0570439,-0.0754978,0.000394339,-0.000390786,-0.00110439,-0.0217346,0.0357138,0.0104201,-0.00641916,-0.00208362,-0.00299882,0.010342,-0.00436507,0.00158757,0.0119727,0.0209753,-0.00379341
CHG,0.091058,0.102568,-0.083344,-0.00323,-0.08617,0.020638,0.024911,-0.001846,-0.128236,-0.074717,-0.006333,0.023979,-0.054856,0.004404,0.026601,-0.03275,0.02386,-0.013429,-0.022249,0.034767,0.033815,-0.007048,0.006532,-0.025787,-0.002036
WHG,0.1246365,0.116278,0.184789,0.189279,0.1546445 ,0.0464355,0.0131605,0.0372675,0.0890705,0.017768,-0.0153455,-0.015811,0.0159065,-0.0030275,0.053338,0.0582065,0.00502,0.016343,-0.0093015,0.055589,0.0944585,0.0111905,-0.049607,-0.160866,0.0170045
TUR_Barcin_N,0.1175998,0.180118,0.0035312,-0.101158,0.0510443,-0.0483875,-0.0043582,-0.0069334,0.0362287,0.0807473,0.0079718,0.0118803,-0.0234545,0.0004691,-0.0419807,-0.0101913,0.0233091,0.0019866,0.0136954,-0.0097489,-0.0142249,0.0057723,-0.0041232,-0.0031658,-0.0043437
SLAVIC_DRIFT,0.134311,0.121525,0.107731,0.113051,0 .0518047,0.0485273,0.0135523,0.0236913,-0.00218167,-0.0545497,0.000433,-0.021231,0.0373637,0.0478927,-0.0186843,-0.007867,-0.00160833,0,-0.00100533,0.00483567,-0.00653033,-0.004328,0.00936667,-0.0187577,0.00203533

As you can see, it isn't perfect, as populations that shouldn't score the Slavic Drift still are scoring small amounts (HRV_IA and Helladic_MBA still score some). But, what you'll find is that most Europeans that really don't have any Slavic admixture (Spanish, Italian, etc.) will mostly score Barcin + Steppe, without any Slavic Drift. Populations that have high steppe but do not have any Slavic drift will unfortunately still score some Slavic Drift in this model. But populations which really do have Slavic Drift, will score high amounts and their ratio of Slavic Drift : Steppe will show the extent of Slavic admixture in the population.

Understand that the model isn't attempting to show the actual level of the final components. The model is simply trying to measure the impact of Slavic Drift in populations. And it can show that the Balkans isn't the same as paleo-Balkan HRV_IA, GRC_Helladic_MBA and the high steppe found in areas is due to recent Slavic input, not due to admixture that has persisted before that.

But hopefully in the future this topic will be tackled properly by academics.

How come Peloponnese has more slavic drift than Thessaly?

Johnny ola
06-08-2021, 11:58 AM
No, closer to other Insular Greeks.

What population They coming closer? As i know People From Eptanisa Are mostly Peloponnesians and Western Greeks.

Pleiades
06-08-2021, 11:58 AM
4507545076

Both calculators show significant slavic drift already in EBA Balkans.

peloponnesian
06-08-2021, 01:56 PM
How come Peloponnese has more slavic drift than Thessaly?

I don't think we have the tools and data to clearly differentiate between Paleo-Balkan (for example Vlach) and Slavic admixture in mainland Greeks. It's possible Thessaly has more of the former and Peloponnese more of the latter but we don't really know yet.

23abc
06-08-2021, 02:39 PM
What population They coming closer? As i know People From Eptanisa Are mostly Peloponnesians and Western Greeks.

This can't be right. Based on gedmatch and commercial site results, they can't descend mostly from Peloponnesians and Western Greeks in recent time.

On 23andMe, full Ionian islanders on average score 40-50% Greek & Balkan, 30-40% Italian, 10-20% West Asian.

On gedmatch, I compiled a list of Kefalonians and this is their distances:

https://i.ibb.co/BjwHnVz/image.png

lacreme
06-08-2021, 02:52 PM
This can't be right. Based on gedmatch and commercial site results, they can't descend mostly from Peloponnesians and Western Greeks in recent time.

On 23andMe, full Ionian islanders on average score 40-50% Greek & Balkan, 30-40% Italian, 10-20% West Asian.

On gedmatch, I compiled a list of Kefalonians and this is their distances:

https://i.ibb.co/BjwHnVz/image.png

K13 ?
Can you share the coordinates for any compiled regional greek population that you have made (like Kefalonians ) and not available in the "official" list ?
Thanks

Johnny ola
06-08-2021, 04:10 PM
This can't be right. Based on gedmatch and commercial site results, they can't descend mostly from Peloponnesians and Western Greeks in recent time.

On 23andMe, full Ionian islanders on average score 40-50% Greek & Balkan, 30-40% Italian, 10-20% West Asian.

On gedmatch, I compiled a list of Kefalonians and this is their distances:

https://i.ibb.co/BjwHnVz/image.png

How many gedmatch kits there Are From Eptanisa?

Johnny ola
06-08-2021, 04:19 PM
These results showing that They Are somewhere between mainland and islands of North Aegean.

Dorian9
06-08-2021, 05:20 PM
If no other impactful migrations took place later ,according to this text the Eptanisians should be a mix of pre-16th century locals ( Greeks ,Arvanites,Franks etc) and 16th/17th century migrants from Peloponnese and Crete.

From here ( https://repository.kallipos.gr/bitstream/11419/4732/1/12.%20%CE%97%20%CE%92%CE%B5%CE%BD%CE%B5%CF%84%CE%B F%CE%BA%CF%81%CE%B1%CF%84%CE%AF%CE%B1.pdf )
https://i.postimg.cc/brp5TZ5J/a.jpg

Tomenable
06-08-2021, 10:33 PM
What population They coming closer?

The islands of Amorgos, Lesbos, etc. are among the closest regions in Single Distances.

Other islands are also close.

Some mainland populations are also close (Peloponnese, Attica, South Italians, Laconia).

tipirneni
06-08-2021, 11:17 PM
My Dante kit produces heavy Early Helladic admixture
Early Helladic Manika Euboea Island Greece 2827 BC Mik15_wgs_trim5bp

4 SNP chains: 117.68cM
largest SNP chain: 299SNP 44.74cM

Early Helladic Manika Euboea Island Greece 2827 BC Mik15_wgs

5 SNP chains : 139.41cM
largest SNP chain: 389SNP 49.35 cM


Mycenaean Peristeria Citadel 1350 BC i9033
2 SNP chains: 11.01 cM

Mycenaean Salamis 1335 BC i9006


Apart from Oetzi which shows big 8 SNP chain: 137.51 cM



All this makes me speculate that this was an ancient trading post from Mediterranean groups that traded with early Yadu kingdoms on the West coast and the South during Chalcolithic and Bronze age. We have some proof from the Tamil archeology showing up few Mediterranean skeletons near Adichallur. https://article.wn.com/view/2018/01/12/The_ghosts_of_Adichanallur/

Do any one know more about these samples ?


Mainland Greece (Helladic culture for Early and Middle periods, Mycenaean for Late periods)
Early Helladic I (Eutresis culture) – ca. 3100/3000-2650 BCE
Early Helladic IIA (Korakou culture) – ca. 2650-2200/2150 BCE
Early Helladic IIB (Lefkandi I culture) – ca.2450/2400-2200/2150 BCE
Early Helladic III (Tiryns culture) – ca.2200/2150-2050/2000 BCE

TonyC
06-09-2021, 12:28 AM
How come Peloponnese has more slavic drift than Thessaly?

Because the Peloponnese is super diverse probably more so than Thessaly. There were a number of Slavic settlements in the Peloponnese and it's evident throughout the peninsula particularly in regions like Elis, Messinia, and Laconia.

Coldmountains
06-10-2021, 09:51 AM
Interesting, why do you think G25 prefers it, when both present in the list.

Balto-Slavs have strong drift and Global25 is drift sensitive hence modeling Balto-Slavs with population predating this drift is giving big distances and misleading results (preference of basal components like EHG, LBK,..). I mean you see Balto-Slavs in such models picking much direct EHG or LBK instead of GAC but in qpAdm you don't see this. Also it should be mentioned that the earliest Proto-Balto-Slavs formed outside the Baltics actually because Baltic CWC was under different R1a clades more related to Z284 in Scandinavia actually. Balto-Slavs seemingly came to the Baltics from somewhere in the southwest and HG ancestry was in Central-East Europe almost fully WHG-like with minimal if any EHG/SHG admixture.

Johnny ola
06-10-2021, 12:41 PM
Balto-Slavs have strong drift and Global25 is drift sensitive hence modeling Balto-Slavs with population predating this drift is giving big distances and misleading results (preference of basal components like EHG, LBK,..). I mean you see Balto-Slavs in such models picking much direct EHG or LBK instead of GAC but in qpAdm you don't see this. Also it should be mentioned that the earliest Proto-Balto-Slavs formed outside the Baltics actually because Baltic CWC was under different R1a clades more related to Z284 in Scandinavia actually. Balto-Slavs seemingly came to the Baltics from somewhere in the southwest and HG ancestry was in Central-East Europe almost fully WHG-like with minimal if any EHG/SHG admixture.

It seems a HG/EEF Rich Pop/group caused the drift. You think This Drift might existed even during Corded Ware times? Or its a post CW phenomenon?

23abc
06-10-2021, 04:17 PM
It seems a HG/EEF Rich Pop/group caused the drift. You think This Drift might existed even during Corded Ware times? Or its a post CW phenomenon?

Based on G25, Corded_Ware_Baltic might have and Bell_Beaker_CZE_o should already have the drift.

https://i.imgur.com/o4v0sCx.png

The drift is suggested to be caused by something similar to samples SRB_Iron_Gates_HG_o, ROU_C_o and POL_BKG_N_o2 and their associated non-outliers, which are mixes of something like Baltic_LTU_Narva and Farmer admixture.

https://i.imgur.com/lYFQJO6.png

I don't know how valid this output is, however.

dosas
06-10-2021, 05:57 PM
Balto-Slavs have strong drift and Global25 is drift sensitive hence modeling Balto-Slavs with population predating this drift is giving big distances and misleading results (preference of basal components like EHG, LBK,..). I mean you see Balto-Slavs in such models picking much direct EHG or LBK instead of GAC but in qpAdm you don't see this. Also it should be mentioned that the earliest Proto-Balto-Slavs formed outside the Baltics actually because Baltic CWC was under different R1a clades more related to Z284 in Scandinavia actually. Balto-Slavs seemingly came to the Baltics from somewhere in the southwest and HG ancestry was in Central-East Europe almost fully WHG-like with minimal if any EHG/SHG admixture.


Can you point me to a published paper where I can read more about what you're writing, friend?

olive picker
06-11-2021, 05:02 PM
Is there a Y-DNA project for Greeks like there is Gjenetika for Albanians and poreklo for Serbs? Most of the genetic discussion I find around Greeks is in regards to autosomal DNA which I have very little interest in, considering it is much more speculative and prone to inaccuracy. I find that Y-DNA informs you more on the ethnogenesis of an ethnicity.

Sorcelow
06-11-2021, 06:22 PM
Is there a Y-DNA project for Greeks like there is Gjenetika for Albanians and poreklo for Serbs? Most of the genetic discussion I find around Greeks is in regards to autosomal DNA which I have very little interest in, considering it is much more speculative and prone to inaccuracy. I find that Y-DNA informs you more on the ethnogenesis of an ethnicity.

Nope, there isn't, unfortunately.

olive picker
06-11-2021, 08:03 PM
Nope, there isn't, unfortunately.

Shame.. Is there at least a site or a map where I can check Y-DNA frequencies in Greece?

Dorian9
06-11-2021, 08:27 PM
https://i.postimg.cc/3J8p4qd2/Greek-ydna-by-region.jpg
https://i.postimg.cc/VsBnNwLY/Greek-YDNA.png

Taken from another forum's thread "Y-DNA haplogroups of Greeks by region of origin"

Pleiades
06-12-2021, 04:18 PM
Does anyone here have a database of Smyrna and Anatolian Greek samples and their gedmatch/g25 results/coords?
From what I've observed so far Smyrna Greeks cluster between Peloponnesians and Islanders.

peloponnesian
06-12-2021, 04:54 PM
I find that Y-DNA informs you more on the ethnogenesis of an ethnicity.

Is that true though? There have been thousands of posts written on the origins of E-V13, for example, but most of it still seems like speculation to me.

olive picker
06-12-2021, 05:02 PM
Is that true though? There have been thousands of posts written on the origins of E-V13, for example, but most of it still seems like speculation to me.

Considering I'm only interested in the timeframe of ~500-700 B.C (for most European ethnicities) up until today, I don't care very much for the very early origins of E-V13 or the other haplogroups, because it indeed becomes much more speculative. However it's not really that speculative that E-V13 was in the Balkans during that timeframe, whereas I2a, R1a are definitely newcomers with the Slavic migration.

This doesn't even touch on subclades, they tell us a lot more than just base "E-V13". It's interesting to see hotspots of diversity and overall connect haplogroups with historical events and documentations.

TonyC
06-13-2021, 06:23 AM
Does anyone here have a database of Smyrna and Anatolian Greek samples and their gedmatch/g25 results/coords?
From what I've observed so far Smyrna Greeks cluster between Peloponnesians and Islanders.

The G25 sample does fit between Southern Peloponnese and Crete but closer to mainland but I honestly believe it’s an outlier. I haven’t seen any other Greek Izmir samples to justify the G25 sample.

Pleiades
06-13-2021, 09:37 AM
The G25 sample does fit between Southern Peloponnese and Crete but closer to mainland but I honestly believe it’s an outlier. I haven’t seen any other Greek Izmir samples to justify the G25 sample.
4515245153

Vahaduo has only 10 samples. 5 are close to Peloponnesians and some of them even cluster with Albanians. Obviously the sample size is too small, but it seems Smyrnians got recent ancestry from the mainland.

23abc
06-13-2021, 02:59 PM
4515245153

Vahaduo has only 10 samples. 5 are close to Peloponnesians and some of them even cluster with Albanians. Obviously the sample size is too small, but it seems Smyrnians got recent ancestry from the mainland.

It aligns well with historical fact. Izmir grew from a tiny village to a massive cosmopolitan place in a very short time period. Most of the residents there had moved from the nearby North Aegean islands or mainland Greece proper. So we should expect them to lie in-between the two genetically, with maybe a few mostly Anatolian outliers that had moved there from some place in the east.


K13 ?
Can you share the coordinates for any compiled regional greek population that you have made (like Kefalonians ) and not available in the "official" list ?
Thanks

Averages for different areas in Greece is a work in progress. I am hoping to share the averages when both the number of samples and the number of averages is great enough. However I can tell you the ones already in the K13 source list seem to be quite accurate, as most averages I've made tend to be similar to those in the end.

Pleiades
06-13-2021, 04:41 PM
It aligns well with historical fact. Izmir grew from a tiny village to a massive cosmopolitan place in a very short time period. Most of the residents there had moved from the nearby North Aegean islands or mainland Greece proper. So we should expect them to lie in-between the two genetically, with maybe a few mostly Anatolian outliers that had moved there from some place in the east.



Averages for different areas in Greece is a work in progress. I am hoping to share the averages when both the number of samples and the number of averages is great enough. However I can tell you the ones already in the K13 source list seem to be quite accurate, as most averages I've made tend to be similar to those in the end.
Why k13 and not k15?
What about g25?

lacreme
06-13-2021, 08:18 PM
It aligns well with historical fact. Izmir grew from a tiny village to a massive cosmopolitan place in a very short time period. Most of the residents there had moved from the nearby North Aegean islands or mainland Greece proper. So we should expect them to lie in-between the two genetically, with maybe a few mostly Anatolian outliers that had moved there from some place in the east.



Averages for different areas in Greece is a work in progress. I am hoping to share the averages when both the number of samples and the number of averages is great enough. However I can tell you the ones already in the K13 source list seem to be quite accurate, as most averages I've made tend to be similar to those in the end.

Can you model the following woman's coordinates with your WIP averages and any other Greek averages for which you don't have something similar ?
I think I've mentioned her before and I may have even asked you again in the past but I'm not sure.
Anyway...She is 25% Cretan (mostly from Sfakia but also from Chania) , 12.5% from Milos, 12.5% from somewhere in the Karaburun peninsula (Smyrni would work ? ) and the remaining 50% is unknown. That 50%, her father, is what I'm searching for.. His ancestry is completely unknown though.

Chris_Mom,13.79,9.91,18.38,21.24,29.86,4.43,0.19,0 .45,0.08,0,0.88,0.78,0
Thanks!

Pleiades
06-15-2021, 05:44 AM
45174

Yseq confirms/predicts j-m241.

Which SNP tests should I order?

Bruzmi
06-20-2021, 04:38 PM
Hi there. Does anyone have information about a result from Arkadia, Greece under E-A18844? (A brief overview here (https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?3821-Albanian-DNA-Project&p=779802&viewfull=1#post779802))

peloponnesian
06-20-2021, 08:26 PM
Hi there. Does anyone have information about a result from Arkadia, Greece under E-A18844? (A brief overview here (https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?3821-Albanian-DNA-Project&p=779802&viewfull=1#post779802))

What's the significance of this clade? It just seems Balkan. Could have made it to Arkadia in any number of ways.

Bruzmi
06-20-2021, 08:51 PM
What's the significance of this clade? It just seems Balkan. Could have made it to Arkadia in any number of ways.

The spread of A18844 in the Balkans is linked to the Mataruga (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mataruge) tribe and related smaller clans. In fact, most of the results on yfull can be traced back to specific areas in Montenegro and they're part of a recent post-medieval spread. But the distance of the Greek result from the other ones may provide information about their location before their spread eastwards from Montenegro.

lacreme
06-22-2021, 07:40 PM
My friend's terminal ? Ydna subclade I-Y51589 is now published.
TMRCA at around 1700ybp with the Bulgarian Pomak.
What is the "age by this line only" ?
https://i.imgur.com/NlRkbaP.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/T2bttVy.jpg

Anything else worth looking/searching for ?
Maybe a future test with ftdna bigY to have him on their tree too but also having a clearer image on the low confidence STRs that he currently has ? Supposedly there are more samples (mostly Swedes ) under the upper level I-Y16808 subclade compared to Yfull's tree.

Sorcelow
06-24-2021, 06:00 PM
I was playing around with some of the Late Antiquity Roman samples, and noticed that RMPR121 and RMPR36 cluster just north of the Mycenaean/Empuries samples. Much like the Mycenaeans, they can accurately be modeled as a mixture between the Minoan/Aegean EBA samples and Yamnaya Steppe Pastoralists. However, they have slightly more steppe ancestry which pulls them north.

Target: ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity:RMPR137
Distance: 2.1681% / 0.02168087
82.6 GRC_EBA
17.4 Steppe

Target: ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity:RMPR117
Distance: 2.6117% / 0.02611739
77.2 GRC_EBA
22.8 Steppe

Also, two of the Rome Late Antiquity samples, RMPR36 and RMPR121, strike me as Illyrian/Thracian. They have less CHG/IranN and more steppe ancestry than the samples above. What else could they be?

Target: ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity:RMPR36
Distance: 1.7826% / 0.01782552
45.6 GRC_EBA
34.2 Steppe
20.2 TUR_Barcin_N

Target: ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity:RMPR121
Distance: 2.0980% / 0.02097957
53.4 GRC_EBA
31.2 Steppe
15.4 TUR_Barcin_N

For comparison, I am providing the same model for the BGR_IA sample

Target: BGR_IA:I5769
Distance: 1.3613% / 0.01361292
49.0 GRC_EBA
27.8 TUR_Barcin_N
23.2 Steppe

TonyC
07-15-2021, 12:40 AM
I have discovered through the Greek Ancestry site (courtesy of someone from Australia) that my paternal line settled in Messinia in the late 1700's following a failed insurrection in Arcadia (where the paternal line originated). They were originally from a now extinct village called Arkoudorema which is located NE of Tripoli near the village of Limpovisi. So much for my theory that my paternal line had been in Messinia since the pre-Ottoman days. Also made contact with a cousin of mine who possesses a written account of the history of my maternal line (paternal side) which were also from Messinia. From what i've read so far they settled in Messinia from Megalopolis in Arcadia around the early 1800's. So I no longer have 3/4 Messinian roots but it looks like I'm more like 3/4 Arcadian and 1/4 Messinian. The 1/4 Messinian is in doubt as well since I suspect that it was settled by sheepherders and/or klephts from Arcadia as well.

Markos
07-15-2021, 02:42 AM
I have discovered through the Greek Ancestry site (courtesy of someone from Australia) that my paternal line settled in Messinia in the late 1700's following a failed insurrection in Arcadia (where the paternal line originated). They were originally from a now extinct village called Arkoudorema which is located NE of Tripoli near the village of Limpovisi. So much for my theory that my paternal line had been in Messinia since the pre-Ottoman days. Also made contact with a cousin of mine who possesses a written account of the history of my maternal line (paternal side) which were also from Messinia. From what i've read so far they settled in Messinia from Megalopolis in Arcadia around the early 1800's. So I no longer have 3/4 Messinian roots but it looks like I'm more like 3/4 Arcadian and 1/4 Messinian. The 1/4 Messinian is in doubt as well since I suspect that it was settled by sheepherders and/or klephts from Arcadia as well.

Very cool. It's always good to learn detailed ancestral information. What website did you use?

TonyC
07-15-2021, 07:40 PM
Very cool. It's always good to learn detailed ancestral information. What website did you use?

Oh it was the just the Facebook group Greek Ancestry and History. Happened to connect with a good friend of a third cousin in Australia. He has knowledge, insight and documentation about village/family history.

TonyC
07-15-2021, 07:51 PM
I posted earlier that I've been in contact with someone from Australia who's friends with a third cousin of mine (that i did not know) and he provided me with extremely wonderful information on family/village history. He corrected himself about the origins of my paternal grandfather's family. Originally he mentioned the village of Arkoudorema but when looking it up in a book on the village of Kokkino (paternal grandfather's village) it was actually the village of Alonistaina, Arcadia in the mountains near Levidi. The other infor he provided was on my paternal grandmother who was from a village near Kokkino in Messinia called Paneika (now extinct). He sent me (in Greek) some segments from a book of his that chronicles the history of both Kokkino (my paternal grandfather's village) and Paneika (maternal grandmother's village). My paternal grandmother's name was Panopoulos and this village was settled by the Panopoulos clan from a village in Arcadia called Roino. Would anyone be able to kindly translate these segments for me; one on Kokkino (paternal grandfather's village) and Paneika (paternal grandmother's village). If so I would kindly appreciate. Thanks to all!45557
4555845559

lockdownboredom
07-16-2021, 01:16 AM
Here are rough AI translations to appease your appetite in the meantime.


https://i.ibb.co/yQ8My7d/translated.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/HVxPMN3/translated-1.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/R9fzCFw/translated-2.jpg

TonyC
07-17-2021, 01:23 AM
Here are rough AI translations to appease your appetite in the meantime.


https://i.ibb.co/yQ8My7d/translated.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/HVxPMN3/translated-1.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/R9fzCFw/translated-2.jpg


Thanks much!

TonyC
07-17-2021, 01:26 AM
I found it never mind.

Pleiades
07-23-2021, 06:20 PM
Have the papers with the elite Mycenaean samples been published yet?

J Man
07-23-2021, 09:01 PM
Have the papers with the elite Mycenaean samples been published yet?

Nope not yet.

TonyC
08-18-2021, 02:53 PM
So it was finally confirmed what I suspected from various ancestry tests and calculators that my maternal grandfather was from an Arvanitiko family. I posted his oral history on the Greek Ancestry site and two posters were able to fill in the blanks on his oral history namely that he was an Arvanite. Again this is a case of full assimilation. No one ever mentioned this to me and I'm sure my mom wasn't aware of her father's ethnic history. His father was the mayor and an attorney of Aetos, Messinia, his grandfather was also the mayor and his great grandfather was pronounced "Falagkiti" (?) and gave him "Korona"(?) by King Othon when he visited Aetos. His great great grandfather was from an Arvanitiko village called Mereze near Megalopolis.

Riverman
08-18-2021, 03:28 PM
Does anyone have more detailed informations about the subclades and terminal clades of E-V13 carrying Greeks from the Pontic region and Crete?

I'm trying to investigate whether a prehistorical spread of V13 can be made very likely by having modern samples in areas less affected by later migrations. Checking on YFull and FTDNA, I came, so far, up with these:

Concerning a potential early presence of E-V13 in Greeks, I found yet another subclade which might fit:
E-Y193398/E-BY192424 almost for sure, with 2-3 samples, one of from Greece, one from Turkey (Gümüşhane, probably derived from the Greek "silver house", Argyroupólis „silver city", because of the mines nearby and is close to the Greek Pontic settlements, like Trabzon) and another one from Armenia. The clade was formed right around the transitional period (1.200-1.100 BC) of the LBA-EIA, like so many of E-V13, and seems to have spread first into and then from Greeks fairly early. I can't be absolutely sure at this point, but I would expect more Greek samples popping up once the Greek V13 people get tested enough.
If I'm right, this could be evidence for a West -> East migration with the Greek colonisation and in Roman times. Anyone disagrees or has additional information for that subclade or the samples?

More promising candidates for early Greek subclades come from this one:
https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-PH1173/

The branch split, again in the transitional period, when Channelled Ware-Eastern Urnfield expanded, apparently with different branches which look more Czech or Greek respectively, as well as other ethnic affiliations.

But there are in this group 2 promising Greek related samples, at least and one ending up in Armenia again. One Turkish from Samsun, with a split upstream with a Bulgarian in the transitional period (what else) and another from a Cappadocian Greek from Kayseri.

For https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Z17293/ are many Greeks listed, but their exact relations to Balkan populations are less clear and could be younger, like for one very obvious case within the genealogical time frame.

Michalis Moriopoulos
08-19-2021, 12:22 AM
So it was finally confirmed what I suspected from various ancestry tests and calculators that my maternal grandfather was from an Arvanitiko family. I posted his oral history on the Greek Ancestry site and two posters were able to fill in the blanks on his oral history namely that he was an Arvanite. Again this is a case of full assimilation. No one ever mentioned this to me and I'm sure my mom wasn't aware of her father's ethnic history. His father was the mayor and an attorney of Aetos, Messinia, his grandfather was also the mayor and his great grandfather was pronounced "Falagkiti" (?) and gave him "Korona"(?) by King Othon when he visited Aetos. His great great grandfather was from an Arvanitiko village called Mereze near Megalopolis.

Excellent discovery!

TonyC
08-19-2021, 12:23 AM
Excellent discovery!

Thanks and hope to see you soon!

J Man
08-19-2021, 12:28 AM
Excellent discovery!

Have you found out anything more about your own paternal line?...Is it still looking like your ancestor may have originally been from Mani?

TonyC
08-19-2021, 12:57 AM
Are you talking to me or Michalis? My paternal line came to Messinia from Alonistana Arcadia in the 1600s.

J Man
08-19-2021, 01:26 AM
Are you talking to me or Michalis? My paternal line came to Messinia from Alonistana Arcadia in the 1600s.

Michalis sorry.

eastara
08-19-2021, 02:14 AM
Does anyone have more detailed informations about the subclades and terminal clades of E-V13 carrying Greeks from the Pontic region and Crete?


For https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Z17293/ are many Greeks listed, but their exact relations to Balkan populations are less clear and could be younger, like for one very obvious case within the genealogical time frame.

Yes, the Greeks are form Pella. i.e Macedonian region and the TMRCA of125 ybp of one brach clearly indicates these are recently Hellenised Bulgarians/Macedonians.

peloponnesian
08-19-2021, 09:35 AM
Are you talking to me or Michalis? My paternal line came to Messinia from Alonistana Arcadia in the 1600s.

You should do a Y DNA test one day, maybe we are cousins ;) I just did a WGS test and I'm waiting for the results

Riverman
08-19-2021, 11:51 AM
Yes, the Greeks are form Pella. i.e Macedonian region and the TMRCA of125 ybp of one brach clearly indicates these are recently Hellenised Bulgarians/Macedonians.

This one individual yes, but for the others we can't tell, because the have no other matches. Actually some could form very old subclades of their own. 3.600 is almost as old as it can get for E-V13. That's the timing before the expansion, so probably a split still in the Bronze Age homeland before moving even just in the direction of Greece.
If someone would have matches for them among Slavs and Albanians in more recent times, this would make it a clear case.

Aspar
08-19-2021, 12:18 PM
This one individual yes, but for the others we can't tell, because the have no other matches. Actually some could form very old subclades of their own. 3.600 is almost as old as it can get for E-V13. That's the timing before the expansion, so probably a split still in the Bronze Age homeland before moving even just in the direction of Greece.
If someone would have matches for them among Slavs and Albanians in more recent times, this would make it a clear case.

All are from a same village...
One of the guy who is managing one of the kits confirmed that on Yfull's FB page.
BTW, I know this is confusing so I will try to explain as simple as it gets. In the 19th century when there were fights and struggle for Macedonia, there were two main parties in what is today Greek Macedonia, a Greek and a Bulgarian one. If you happened to be a member of the Greek church then you were considered Greek and those people fought or were usually collaborators of the Greek party. The same goes vice versa...
Now here is where it gets confusing, many of these 'Greeks' were actually Slavic speakers, NOT Greek. This is one of the things that make it confusing because the Slavic speakers in their majority back in the 19th century didn't have a specific sense of national and ethnic belonging. The Slavic language was something like Coine but that wasn't enough to unify them into one Slavic party, whether Bulgarian or whatever. So when different parties got involved in the fight, many of them resisted or didn't participate at all. However big number did participate in both the Greek and Bulgarian party depending of everyone's ideas, sense of belonging etc.

So, the area we are discussing, today's regional unit of Pella, was Slavic speaking in it's absolute majority, especially the village these guys are coming from. That two of them form a clade is also quite telling because their nativity in the area extends before the migrations of Pontic and Asia Minor Greeks in the area so we can exclude the possibility these are recent migrants.

Now, I am not saying their clade is of proto-Slavic origins, that would be absurd because the Slavic speakers of Macedonia are not the pure Slavs that migrated in the 6th century in the region so only God knows what are the true origins of their subclade. Whether is something that came with the Slavs from the north or whether is some assimilated Byzantine Greek speakers of the region or something else we can't possibly say for sure...

losAntonis
08-19-2021, 07:20 PM
For https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Z17293/ are many Greeks listed, but their exact relations to Balkan populations are less clear and could be younger, like for one very obvious case within the genealogical time frame.

Y88476 and YF84075 are two families from the same village in Almopia, Pella. The TMRCA between those two samples should be about 500 ybp.
YF85965 is from Edessa in Pella, which is quite close to the village in Almopia. The TMRCA between this sample and the sample from Bulgaria is wrong, due to the actual TMRCA bug at YFull and should be about 1000 ybp after the next update.

dosas
08-19-2021, 09:29 PM
Y88476 and YF84075 are two families from the same village in Almopia, Pella. The TMRCA between those two samples should be about 500 ybp.
YF85965 is from Edessa in Pella, which is quite close to the village in Almopia. The TMRCA between this sample and the sample from Bulgaria is wrong, due to the actual TMRCA bug at YFull and should be about 1000 ybp after the next update.

What, he's a not "Hellenised" Bulgarian, after all?

:biggrin1:

olive picker
08-20-2021, 12:29 PM
So it was finally confirmed what I suspected from various ancestry tests and calculators that my maternal grandfather was from an Arvanitiko family. I posted his oral history on the Greek Ancestry site and two posters were able to fill in the blanks on his oral history namely that he was an Arvanite. Again this is a case of full assimilation. No one ever mentioned this to me and I'm sure my mom wasn't aware of her father's ethnic history. His father was the mayor and an attorney of Aetos, Messinia, his grandfather was also the mayor and his great grandfather was pronounced "Falagkiti" (?) and gave him "Korona"(?) by King Othon when he visited Aetos. His great great grandfather was from an Arvanitiko village called Mereze near Megalopolis.

Any chance that line can be tested somehow?

vasil
08-20-2021, 12:46 PM
What, he's a not "Hellenised" Bulgarian, after all?

:biggrin1:

More likely Hellenised and Bulgarianised Aromanians/Vlachs but i digress.

TonyC
08-20-2021, 12:51 PM
Any chance that line can be tested somehow?


I can't reach my first cousin who lives in Virginia. I was going to buy him a kit because he's the only one who's carrying the paternal haplogroup for the that line. I'm going to keep trying because I was thinking about that very same thing last night.

dosas
08-20-2021, 02:38 PM
More likely Hellenised and Bulgarianised Aromanians/Vlachs but i digress.


Vlachs and Aromanian groups in Greece are historically agents for Hellenisation, not the other way around. This is the Greek discussion thread, you are not digressing.

vasil
08-20-2021, 03:17 PM
Vlachs and Aromanian groups in Greece are historically agents for Hellenisation, not the other way around. This is the Greek discussion thread, you are not digressing.

Are you making the argument that Aromanians are somehow Greek because i am not making the argument they are Bulgarian. They are their own separate thing or used to be before they were absorbed in the neighboring populations.

dosas
08-20-2021, 04:25 PM
Are you making the argument that Aromanians are somehow Greek because i am not making the argument they are Bulgarian. They are their own separate thing or used to be before they were absorbed in the neighboring populations.

I am saying that historically Aromanian/Vlach groups in Greece are the fiercest proponents of Hellenisation, linguistically and culturally, and avid advocators of the 19th century Romantic revival of the Classical Age associated with the Greek (Bavarian) Monarchy. You should know that too, if you are a reader of history.

vasil
08-20-2021, 06:29 PM
I am saying that historically Aromanian/Vlach groups in Greece are the fiercest proponents of Hellenisation, linguistically and culturally, and avid advocators of the 19th century Romantic revival of the Classical Age associated with the Greek (Bavarian) Monarchy. You should know that too, if you are a reader of history.

The thing is people can decide to identify however they want but what they cant do is erase all historical records and make everyone get amnesia so they can clain they were always what they have decided to become. For the purposes of genetics if a male line is tested from a village or region with a known Aromanian, Bulgarian or Albanian population we cant just close our eyes and shout GREEK Y-DNA just to apease nationalism its just not scientific and all.

dosas
08-20-2021, 07:41 PM
The thing is people can decide to identify however they want but what they cant do is erase all historical records and make everyone get amnesia so they can clain they were always what they have decided to become. For the purposes of genetics if a male line is tested from a village or region with a known Aromanian, Bulgarian or Albanian population we cant just close our eyes and shout GREEK Y-DNA just to apease nationalism its just not scientific and all.


I agree, but it's more complicated than just characterizing a village "Aromanian", "Bulgarian" or "Albanian" and being done with it.

Byzantine and then Ottoman demographics were more complicated than that.

vasil
08-20-2021, 08:22 PM
I agree, but it's more complicated than just characterizing a village "Aromanian", "Bulgarian" or "Albanian" and being done with it.

Byzantine and then Ottoman demographics were more complicated than that.

I will give you that the records from Byzantine and Ottoman times are incomplete and ambigious in some instances also the area where Albanians and Bulgarians lived together was a bit of a clusterf*ck essentially the people themselves were not entirely sure what they are and were in many cases bilingual. On the other hand since Macedonia was a contested area in the 19th and 20th centuries we have plenty of data from the period and can easily say which village was what with a good degree of certainty.

Tįltos
08-20-2021, 08:55 PM
I will give you that the records from Byzantine and Ottoman times are incomplete and ambigious in some instances also the area where Albanians and Bulgarians lived together was a bit of a clusterf*ck essentially the people themselves were not entirely sure what they are and were in many cases bilingual. On the other hand since Macedonia was a contested area in the 19th and 20th centuries we have plenty of data from the period and can easily say which village was what with a good degree of certainty.

I can say that my Arbėreshė family has autosomal DNA matches to people from Bulgaria. I have to wonder are they really Albanians? Or do we have a line that was Bulgarian? Who knows right now. What I do know is I have learned that on every single one of my lines there has been twists and turns, and never what I would have thought 20 years ago.

td120
08-20-2021, 09:30 PM
.....

olive picker
08-21-2021, 12:26 AM
Are there any statistics on the Y-DNA of Arvanites?

dosas
08-21-2021, 05:23 AM
I will give you that the records from Byzantine and Ottoman times are incomplete and ambigious in some instances also the area where Albanians and Bulgarians lived together was a bit of a clusterf*ck essentially the people themselves were not entirely sure what they are and were in many cases bilingual. On the other hand since Macedonia was a contested area in the 19th and 20th centuries we have plenty of data from the period and can easily say which village was what with a good degree of certainty.


19th century maps already inject the newly created nationalist narratives in their making, they are useful as a snapshot of the period but cannot be very indicative of what transpired before, during Byzantine and Ottoman times, since the dichotomy was mostly in very divisive terms (Christian/Muslim, Patriarchate/Exarchate, Greek/Bulgarian/Turkish speaking, etc).

If people in Greek Macedonia are the same with the Slavic Macedonians and Bulgarians, "Hellenized" Bulgarians or South Slavs as you put it, separated merely by language, religious or civic nationalism, why don't they plot closer to each other in relation to the Peloponnesians?



Distance to: Greek_Macedonia
0.01854930 Greek_Peloponnese
0.03377084 Macedonian


Why do they score more West Asian elements, like the rest of the Greeks? Is it because of the supposed "Hellenisation" process of "native" Slavic Macedonians and/or Bulgarians, did they somehow get injected with West Asian genetics when they decided to follow the Patriarchate and not the Exarchate post 1872, or does it stem from other historical processes, and if yes, which processes were those?

The attempt to uncover these historical processes is the focus of this thread and not pissing contests of false dichotomies, better suited to outdated Balkan-style/post-communist nationalist narratives, imo.

eastara
08-21-2021, 09:45 AM
Why do they score more West Asian elements, like the rest of the Greeks? Is it because of the supposed "Hellenisation" process of "native" Slavic Macedonians and/or Bulgarians, did they somehow get injected with West Asian genetics when they decided to follow the Patriarchate and not the Exarchate post 1872, or does it stem from other historical processes, and if yes, which processes were those?

The attempt to uncover these historical processes is the focus of this thread and not pissing contests of false dichotomies, better suited to outdated Balkan-style/post-communist nationalist narratives, imo.

The problem is that a mix up is happening among the Greeks in this area, which is going on already for a 100 years. When I wrote before, that the Anatolian/Middle East will increase among modern Greek Macedonians due to the resettlement of refugees from Anatolia, some accused me of trolling. Historical facts are historical facts, even if not politically correct.

dosas
08-21-2021, 10:04 AM
The problem is that a mix up is happening among the Greeks in this area, which is going on already for a 100 years. When I wrote before, that the Anatolian/Middle East will increase among modern Greek Macedonians due to the resettlement of refugees from Anatolia, some accused me of trolling. Historical facts are historical facts, even if not politically correct.


The Greek_Macedonia G25 samples from the Stamatoyanopoulos paper did not include mixed individuals; the Anatolian refugees, as you call them, had their own cluster, ie Greek_Cappadocia. So, that's not the reason.

Hitchcock
08-21-2021, 02:18 PM
guys i noticed Levantine admixture in greece what could be the cause ? anyone have thoughts on this?

Pleiades
08-21-2021, 02:19 PM
Are there any statistics on the Y-DNA of Arvanites?

http://www.gjenetika.com/rezultatet/

Some members in the Albanian Bloodlines project are from Greece. Probably arvanites or albanians residing here.

Pleiades
08-21-2021, 02:28 PM
guys i noticed Levantine admixture in greece what could be the cause ? anyone have thoughts on this?

It could be from Hellenistic era or Roman era or Ottoman era etc. Arabs even conquered Crete for a many years and Arab pirates may have brought middle eastern admixture to Greek islands. Also, few neolithic samples have a levantine shift, but I think the levantine admixture is way more recent.

Riverman
08-21-2021, 02:58 PM
guys i noticed Levantine admixture in greece what could be the cause ? anyone have thoughts on this?

For Greece the situation is similar to Southern Italy and in this thread there was a long debate about it. My opinion in short being summarised in this post:
https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?23955-The-origin-and-legacy-of-the-Etruscans-through-a-2-000-year-archeogenomic-time-transe&p=793775&viewfull=1#post793775

Most of the shift in Greece should be due to a slow gene flow in the classical and a pretty quicker and more influential one in Hellenistic times, in both cases mostly due to both free migrants and slaves from the Eastern Hellenistic, newly conquered areas and beyond (slave trade). Because the migration and slaves came from further East in Hellenistic times, whereas they were still from nearby in the classical era for the most part, with a higher proportion of Northern slaves and migrants (primarily Thracians and Scythians).
But to be sure we need more samples from different areas, places and social strata from Greece. So far we have very little. The study about Campania hopefully coming out soon might help, because in the abstract they stated that they have sampled early Greek colonists. These could probably be used as reference as to how much Levantine, Slavic, Albanian etc. admixture Greeks really have received in later times. Though more than one sample from different places and strata would be nice. But the first ones are better than none at all.

Hitchcock
08-21-2021, 03:11 PM
For Greece the situation is similar to Southern Italy and in this thread there was a long debate about it. My opinion in short being summarised in this post:
https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?23955-The-origin-and-legacy-of-the-Etruscans-through-a-2-000-year-archeogenomic-time-transe&p=793775&viewfull=1#post793775

Most of the shift in Greece should be due to a slow gene flow in the classical and a pretty quicker and more influential one in Hellenistic times, in both cases mostly due to both free migrants and slaves from the Eastern Hellenistic, newly conquered areas and beyond (slave trade). Because the migration and slaves came from further East in Hellenistic times, whereas they were still from nearby in the classical era for the most part, with a higher proportion of Northern slaves and migrants (primarily Thracians and Scythians).
But to be sure we need more samples from different areas, places and social strata from Greece. So far we have very little. The study about Campania hopefully coming out soon might help, because in the abstract they stated that they have sampled early Greek colonists. These could probably be used as reference as to how much Levantine, Slavic, Albanian etc. admixture Greeks really have received in later times. Though more than one sample from different places and strata would be nice. But the first ones are better than none at all.

thanks for your insight..
Its interesting to me that they became more middle eastern but also more Indo-european, and less Neolithic european.

Riverman
08-21-2021, 03:34 PM
thanks for your insight..
Its interesting to me that they became more middle eastern but also more Indo-european, and less Neolithic european.

You have to imagine it like the Neolithic early farmer component being the original main ancestry, but it being pressed from the North (Proto-Greeks, Thracians, Albanians, Vlachs, Slavs) and the South East (Anatolan, Near Eastern). So the Greeks today are probably on a simliar spot as some of their ancient ancestors, but the mix was altered. The Northern and South Eastern admixtue kind of balanced things out a bit. Unlike the Sardinians, which are still largely Neolithic derived, though not fully so as well, because there exist no pure steppe, early European Neolithic or Iranian Neolithic populations any more. They are all mixed, and be it just a bit.

dosas
08-21-2021, 03:50 PM
thanks for your insight..
Its interesting to me that they became more middle eastern but also more Indo-european, and less Neolithic european.


What do you mean "Neolithic European"?

Neolithic Farmers were not European. They originated from places like the Levant, Zagros and NW Anatolia.

And modern Greeks still push 60%+ Farmer admixture.

dosas
08-21-2021, 04:19 PM
For Greece the situation is similar to Southern Italy and in this thread there was a long debate about it. My opinion in short being summarised in this post:
https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?23955-The-origin-and-legacy-of-the-Etruscans-through-a-2-000-year-archeogenomic-time-transe&p=793775&viewfull=1#post793775

Most of the shift in Greece should be due to a slow gene flow in the classical and a pretty quicker and more influential one in Hellenistic times, in both cases mostly due to both free migrants and slaves from the Eastern Hellenistic, newly conquered areas and beyond (slave trade). Because the migration and slaves came from further East in Hellenistic times, whereas they were still from nearby in the classical era for the most part, with a higher proportion of Northern slaves and migrants (primarily Thracians and Scythians).
But to be sure we need more samples from different areas, places and social strata from Greece. So far we have very little. The study about Campania hopefully coming out soon might help, because in the abstract they stated that they have sampled early Greek colonists. These could probably be used as reference as to how much Levantine, Slavic, Albanian etc. admixture Greeks really have received in later times. Though more than one sample from different places and strata would be nice. But the first ones are better than none at all.


Ancient Greek colonizers usually mixed with the people and cultures they came in contact with and appropriated them, this is a trait of Ionian colonization and present as a fact in almost all of the texts by historical figures of the time, ie Herodotus. When we talk about ancient Greek civilization what we usually refer to is the Ionian/Attic civilization, in terms of the arts, philosophy, science, architecture and other achievements. As a result, this means, due to how the Ionian world was structured, that we're talking about a hybrid civilisation of sorts, a merge of Asia Minor Ionia and Attic Greece, so to speak. Herodotus himself was half-Carian, from his father's side, for example.

The other groups, Dorics, Aeolics, etc, were under-achievers (in relative terms) and ended up being annihilated culturally and linguistically, by the time of the Macedonian expansion to the East, even though they had won the war. The Persians, themselves, were calling the Macedonians the "Yauna Takabara", the "Ionians with the long hats", even though the Macedonians were hardly that. Everywhere in the East, where the Greeks traditionally expanded into, they are called as Ionians, "Yunan", "Yunani", "Javan", "Yavan", "Yuan", etc.

By the time of the Seleucids and the Ptolemys, etc, the Hellenistic civilization is a syncretic fusion of Ionian characteristics with either Persian, Egyptian, or Bactrian elements, in those respectable areas, with newly created centers like Antiochea for the Seleucids and Alexandria for the Ptolemys surpassing in importance the old centres of the Classical Age Greek world.

All of this, of course, until the Roman expansion into the East that solidifies, with the final defeat of Greco-Persian fusions like the Mithridates' Pontus Kingdom, the incorporation of the fractured Hellenistic world into the Roman Empire and paves the way for the later creation of the Eastern Roman Empire.

Why wouldn't it be weird for modern Greeks not to have admixture from all these places?

lockdownboredom
08-21-2021, 04:35 PM
guys i noticed Levantine admixture in greece what could be the cause ? anyone have thoughts on this?

Greek Islanders, Cypriots, Anatolians and maybe Romaniotes

TonyC
08-21-2021, 04:44 PM
guys i noticed Levantine admixture in greece what could be the cause ? anyone have thoughts on this?

Levantine as in fertile crescent so you mean something like Levant Jordan EBA or Beirut because actually depends on region. I honestly haven't noticed much of "Levantine" in mainland samples primarily ENF, Steppe and minor Caucasus. When you get to the Aegean islands you definitely see a rise in the Levantine component but that could still be an ancient (Phoenician) connection.

Riverman
08-21-2021, 06:53 PM
Ancient Greek colonizers usually mixed with the people and cultures they came in contact with and appropriated them, this is a trait of Ionian colonization and present as a fact in almost all of the texts by historical figures of the time, ie Herodotus. When we talk about ancient Greek civilization what we usually refer to is the Ionian/Attic civilization, in terms of the arts, philosophy, science, architecture and other achievements. As a result, this means, due to how the Ionian world was structured, that we're talking about a hybrid civilisation of sorts, a merge of Asia Minor Ionia and Attic Greece, so to speak. Herodotus himself was half-Carian, from his father's side, for example.

The other groups, Dorics, Aeolics, etc, were under-achievers (in relative terms) and ended up being annihilated culturally and linguistically, by the time of the Macedonian expansion to the East, even though they had won the war. The Persians, themselves, were calling the Macedonians the "Yauna Takabara", the "Ionians with the long hats", even though the Macedonians were hardly that. Everywhere in the East, where the Greeks traditionally expanded into, they are called as Ionians, "Yunan", "Yunani", "Javan", "Yavan", "Yuan", etc.

By the time of the Seleucids and the Ptolemys, etc, the Hellenistic civilization is a syncretic fusion of Ionian characteristics with either Persian, Egyptian, or Bactrian elements, in those respectable areas, with newly created centers like Antiochea for the Seleucids and Alexandria for the Ptolemys surpassing in importance the old centres of the Classical Age Greek world.

All of this, of course, until the Roman expansion into the East that solidifies, with the final defeat of Greco-Persian fusions like the Mithridates' Pontus Kingdom, the incorporation of the fractured Hellenistic world into the Roman Empire and paves the way for the later creation of the Eastern Roman Empire.

Why wouldn't it be weird for modern Greeks not to have admixture from all these places?

Well said, I can just agree on what you wrote, but these are things I considered.

Still in the early Greek era, more Greeks moved to the East as free people than vice versa and what's more, we don't know how Eastern shifted the people directly West to the Greeks were. Like the Carians, Bithyni and so on, some might have been not much more Eastern than the Greeks, especially not that much more than the Minoans were. So a limited exchange from within the closer Aegean, Northern East Mediterranean region might not suffice to explain it.
The later developments in the Hellenistic times, when the local polities lost their independence and became all included in the new Hellenistic formations, this is more likely to have been the time.

By the way, I didn't know that Herodotus was half-Carian, that was new to me. His father had a Carian turned Greek name it seems, but is there any other information on his ancestry other than his fathers forename?
https://linguistics.osu.edu/herodotos/ethnonym/persian/carians

Riverman
08-21-2021, 11:01 PM
Something new for the Dorian and Daco-Thracian debate:
Going by this interesting article, the Channelled Ware groups formed a network of distribution of Naue II swords and the earliest Naue II swords entered the Aegean with mercenaries - coming as far as Denmark to the Eastern Mediterranean.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/292397599_The_Dissemination_of_Naue_II_swords_-_a_Case_Study_on_Long-distance_Mobility

This suggests both Northern Greeks like the Dorians and other tribal warriors lived within the Mycenaean world before it was collapsing. Something being also suggested by the Barbarian ware and other artefacts. Which also means, that they were already in place, before the collapse. They could have taken over either from within or guide their tribal brethren once they targeted the Mycenaean strongholds.

About Barbarian Ware:

t is claimed that this type of pottery is a product of the foreign population which entered the mainland after the collapse of the Mycenaean palaces. However, later evidence proved that this ceramic type was in use already from the Late Helladic IIIA period and continued to exist during the Dark Ages. The fact that it occurs in exactly the same form also in other countries, Albania, Roumania and Italy, leads to the assumption that this pottery is related with movement of population which had started several centuries before the decline of the Mycenaean power.

http://www.fhw.gr/chronos/02/mainland/en/mg/technology/pottery/index4.html

Pleiades
08-24-2021, 02:14 PM
Do you guys have links to any Y-DNA studies of modern Greeks?

Sorcelow
08-26-2021, 07:35 PM
Where I predict Classical genomes from Greece will plot based on subtracting slavic drift from the Peloponnesian average:

https://scontent-lga3-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.15752-9/239614916_234108945283863_27396296238637658_n.png? _nc_cat=110&ccb=1-5&_nc_sid=ae9488&_nc_ohc=2h0trbI3q60AX-nuhgU&_nc_ht=scontent-lga3-2.xx&oh=bbc05ace9ea314eb1805e266ab31b7bf&oe=614F5943

TonyC
08-27-2021, 01:22 AM
Where I predict Classical genomes from Greece will plot based on subtracting slavic drift from the Peloponnesian average:

https://scontent-lga3-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.15752-9/239614916_234108945283863_27396296238637658_n.png? _nc_cat=110&ccb=1-5&_nc_sid=ae9488&_nc_ohc=2h0trbI3q60AX-nuhgU&_nc_ht=scontent-lga3-2.xx&oh=bbc05ace9ea314eb1805e266ab31b7bf&oe=614F5943

If the Greece Helladic MBA 02 is close to Thessaly;
Distance to: Greek_Thessaly
0.02687360 GRC_Helladic_MBA:Log02
I'm guessing this is most likely similar to post classical Macedonians. The MBA 04 isn't really close to any Balkan population so not sure what about it's etiology. But my point is if the Helladic MBA 02 (possibly like classical/post classical Macedonians or fringe Greeks from that period) is close to Central/Northern Greeks and preceded the Classical mainlanders are you suggesting that Classical era Greeks from further South had that much less Steppe or were watered down by increased ENF due to contact and intermixing with coastal Anatolian and/or Aegean Greeks that were fluidly involved in mainland Greek city states. Could you plot the Helladic 02 sample? Where does the NW Empuries sample fit?

Sorcelow
08-27-2021, 01:57 AM
If the Greece Helladic MBA 02 is close to Thessaly;
Distance to: Greek_Thessaly
0.02687360 GRC_Helladic_MBA:Log02
I'm guessing this is most likely similar to post classical Macedonians. The MBA 04 isn't really close to any Balkan population so not sure what about it's etiology. But my point is if the Helladic MBA 02 (possibly like classical/post classical Macedonians or fringe Greeks from that period) is close to Central/Northern Greeks and preceded the Classical mainlanders are you suggesting that Classical era Greeks from further South had that much less Steppe or were watered down by increased ENF due to contact and intermixing with coastal Anatolian and/or Aegean Greeks that were fluidly involved in mainland Greek city states. Could you plot the Helladic 02 sample? Where does the NW Empuries sample fit?

Here is the plot with the Helladic samples added. I think that classical genomes from northern Greece will plot slightly more north than what I circled in the plot. I think that the Helladic samples were recently admixed individuals from further north, who probably mixed with a Mycenaean like native population.

https://scontent-lga3-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.15752-9/240565569_356896156168710_2373875212417205605_n.pn g?_nc_cat=108&ccb=1-5&_nc_sid=ae9488&_nc_ohc=kBhR6wpfooYAX_0jyNM&_nc_ht=scontent-lga3-2.xx&oh=e30f546c5758bd9691d44a00d836bc35&oe=614ED838

If you want to play with the simulated coordinates I made then here they are:

Pelop_Classical_Sim,0.110500828,0.150257386,-0.01302814,-0.054047937,0.014922667,-0.0200673,0.00248268,-0.005158728,0.000947956,0.028405458,0.003701896,0. 006018577,-0.009984088,0.000629011,-0.013956371,-0.001705279,0.009574053,0.0002831,0.003862358,-0.005401295,-0.005039792,0.001281365,-0.000139337,0.004638818,-0.001069282

TonyC
08-27-2021, 02:47 AM
Here is the plot with the Helladic samples added. I think that classical genomes from northern Greece will plot slightly more north than what I circled in the plot. I think that the Helladic samples were recently admixed individuals from further north, who probably mixed with a Mycenaean like native population.

https://scontent-lga3-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.15752-9/240565569_356896156168710_2373875212417205605_n.pn g?_nc_cat=108&ccb=1-5&_nc_sid=ae9488&_nc_ohc=kBhR6wpfooYAX_0jyNM&_nc_ht=scontent-lga3-2.xx&oh=e30f546c5758bd9691d44a00d836bc35&oe=614ED838

If you want to play with the simulated coordinates I made then here they are:

Pelop_Classical_Sim,0.110500828,0.150257386,-0.01302814,-0.054047937,0.014922667,-0.0200673,0.00248268,-0.005158728,0.000947956,0.028405458,0.003701896,0. 006018577,-0.009984088,0.000629011,-0.013956371,-0.001705279,0.009574053,0.0002831,0.003862358,-0.005401295,-0.005039792,0.001281365,-0.000139337,0.004638818,-0.001069282

Target: Anthony_C_scaled
Distance: 2.1845% / 0.02184510
67.6 GRC_Helladic_MBA
27.8 Pelop_Classical_Sim
4.6 GRC_Helladic_EBA

peloponnesian
08-27-2021, 01:48 PM
Target: Anthony_C_scaled
Distance: 2.1845% / 0.02184510
67.6 GRC_Helladic_MBA
27.8 Pelop_Classical_Sim
4.6 GRC_Helladic_EBA

You need something like

Migration_POH:POH27,0.126344,0.152329,0.037335,-0.001938,0.030159,-0.001116,0.004935,-0.002769,-0.008795,0.003462,0.00065,0.011989,0.002379,0.0068 81,-0.009093,-0.002121,0.024512,-0.000127,-0.005405,-0.006628,-0.001872,-0.011252,0.008751,0.001084,-0.002754

along with Pelop_Classical_Sim to get a good model. If there was something GRC_Helladic_MBA-like in pre-migration Peloponnesians it's already included in the coordinates Sorcelow made.

TonyC
08-27-2021, 02:51 PM
You need something like

Migration_POH:POH27,0.126344,0.152329,0.037335,-0.001938,0.030159,-0.001116,0.004935,-0.002769,-0.008795,0.003462,0.00065,0.011989,0.002379,0.0068 81,-0.009093,-0.002121,0.024512,-0.000127,-0.005405,-0.006628,-0.001872,-0.011252,0.008751,0.001084,-0.002754

along with Pelop_Classical_Sim to get a good model. If there was something GRC_Helladic_MBA-like in pre-migration Peloponnesians it's already included in the coordinates Sorcelow made.

I tried it:
Target: Anthony_C_scaled
Distance: 2.8600% / 0.02859965
56.0 Pelop_Classical_Sim
44.0 OH27
Any ideas?

Sorcelow
08-27-2021, 02:55 PM
I tried it:
Target: Anthony_C_scaled
Distance: 2.8600% / 0.02859965
56.0 Pelop_Classical_Sim
44.0 OH27
Any ideas?

Target: Greek_Peloponnese:Anthony_C_scaled
Distance: 2.1269% / 0.02126935
72.4 Pelop_Classical_Sim
27.6 Polish

lacreme
08-27-2021, 05:30 PM
My friend and his mother, too mixed (regionally) for the model to work correctly but I tried it anyway. Her non bio father as an extra.
I also made a model with an Anatolian population added as the former two usually need it for a better fit (her non bio father didn't pick any)


Target: Chris_scaled
Distance: 1.9494% / 0.01949372
82.8 Pelop_Classical_Sim
17.2 Polish

Target: Chris_scaled
Distance: 1.6558% / 0.01655838
61.2 Pelop_Classical_Sim
19.8 Greek_Cappadocia
19.0 Polish


Target: ChrisMom_scaled
Distance: 3.4930% / 0.03492984
87.8 Pelop_Classical_Sim
12.2 Polish

Target: ChrisMom_scaled
Distance: 2.3380% / 0.02338029
49.8 Greek_Cappadocia
33.8 Pelop_Classical_Sim
16.4 Polish


Target: Chris_nonbio_grandpa_scaled
Distance: 2.6477% / 0.02647730
71.8 Pelop_Classical_Sim
28.2 Polish

Greekscholar
08-28-2021, 03:16 PM
Short and sweet.

Target: GS_family(Fourni/Ikaria/Samos):YiaYia(Fourni/Ikaria)
Distance: 2.4927% / 0.02492679
79.8 Pelop_Classical_Sim
20.2 Migration_POHOH27



Target: GS_family(Fourni/Ikaria/Samos):GS_Dad(Fourni/Ikaria/Samos)
Distance: 2.5032% / 0.02503197
77.8 Pelop_Classical_Sim
22.2 Migration_POHOH27


Target: GS_family(Fourni/Ikaria/Samos):GS(Fourni/Ikaria/Samos)
Distance: 2.3074% / 0.02307429
82.4 Pelop_Classical_Sim
17.6 Migration_POHOH27

Distance to: GS_family(Fourni/Ikaria/Samos):GS(Fourni/Ikaria/Samos)
0.02778874 Pelop_Classical_Sim
0.07564327 Migration_POHOH27

Pleiades
08-29-2021, 04:52 PM
I'm trying to create an admixture model to see if Middle Age Helladic and Mycenaean samples had a catacomb or corded ware or bell beaker like Steppe admixture source. Do you have any ideas on how I could improve this or could you suggest any alternative models?
46302

TonyC
08-31-2021, 12:17 AM
I'm trying to create an admixture model to see if Middle Age Helladic and Mycenaean samples had a catacomb or corded ware or bell beaker like Steppe admixture source. Do you have any ideas on how I could improve this or could you suggest any alternative models?
46302


I'm trying to figure out the difference between the Helladic MBA Log 2 and Log 4. The Log 2 seems to be much closer to modern mainland Greeks and leans towards higher Corded Ware ancestry but that would mean more Steppe right? When I read about Corded Ware culture it the authors always mention it being Steppe like but I wonder if it's really a mix of EEF and Steppe. The Helladic Log 4 has conspicuously higher Steppe and lower Corded Ware but negligible Anatolian. The Log 4 does have a higher Cycladic component. These components really confuse me at times particularly when were talking about ENF vs. Steppe in Greece. Some of the other posters could probably differentiate these components better.

dosas
08-31-2021, 06:37 AM
I'm trying to create an admixture model to see if Middle Age Helladic and Mycenaean samples had a catacomb or corded ware or bell beaker like Steppe admixture source. Do you have any ideas on how I could improve this or could you suggest any alternative models?
46302


Which are the Corded Ware/Catacomb/BBC haplogroups in modern Greece and the ancient samples?

Greekscholar
09-17-2021, 12:04 AM
Let's continue discussion of Greek/Albanian modeling based on the Danubian Limes paper here rather than a thread about Turkish genetics.

Michalis Moriopoulos
09-17-2021, 12:11 AM
No I didn't. Thanks though. How is it explained?

It is very East Med, practically Cypriot-like. We've seen this before with many Imperial Romans, we see it in high-status individuals (surely Roman citizens) in the Danubian limes paper, and we're going to see it in Greece as teased by the Vranas Marathon sample (featured in the Danubian limes paper). That sample will be part of an upcoming Lazaridis study.

The best explanation I have is that this is just what Greeks looked like during the Hellenistic era. And it might have started before even that.

Ylang-Ylang
09-17-2021, 12:23 AM
Here the table of Slavic percentages from the new Balkans study and the waves of migrations into the Balkans from different timelines:

46621

46622

46623

46624


https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.08.30.458211v1

Greekscholar
09-17-2021, 12:27 AM
It is very East Med, practically Cypriot-like. We've seen this before with many Imperial Romans, we see it in high-status individuals (surely Roman citizens) in the Danubian limes paper, and we're going to see it in Greece as teased by the Vranas Marathon sample (featured in the Danubian limes paper). That sample will be part of an upcoming Lazaridis study.

The best explanation I have is that this is just what Greeks looked like during the Hellenistic era. And it might have started before even that.

It can't get here fast enough, can it?

Obviously just because a model "works" doesn't mean it should be taken literally. If we are able to replicate on G25 what academic papers are finding, that is normally a good sign though. The limes paper proposed modeling modern Aegean Greeks needs something Roman Imperial like, then throws out this still unpublished sample to create their model. I would guess if Empuries2+Mordovian+Cypriot works on G25, that is probably a strong sign that sample is Cypriot-like. This would be another piece of evidence:

Distance to: Cypriot
0.02612460 ITA_Rome_Imperial

Distance to: Cypriot_B
0.02020855 ITA_Rome_Imperial

The Peloponnese average is still 'south' enough genetically to benefit from the three part model.

TonyC
09-17-2021, 12:31 AM
Maybe it's the isolated Peloponnesian groups like Maniots and/or Tsakonians (of Eastern Laconia/Southeastern Arcadia) who carry this component from the Classical or Roman era vs. Thessalians and/or transplanted Peloponnesians who arrived much later.

Target: Greek_Laconia
Distance: 2.8538% / 0.02853832
75.8 GRC_Helladic_MBA
24.2 Levant_Sidon_MBA

Target: Greek_Peloponnese
Distance: 2.3022% / 0.02302222
81.6 GRC_Helladic_MBA
18.4 Levant_Sidon_MBA


Target: Greek_Thessaly
Distance: 1.9024% / 0.01902430
88.6 GRC_Helladic_MBA
8.0 Levant_Sidon_MBA
3.4 TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA

Ylang-Ylang
09-17-2021, 12:47 AM
Target: Greek_Thessaly
Distance: 1.2648% / 0.01264814
42.4 Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2
35.6 HUN_Avar_Szolad
22.0 Cypriot

Target: Greek_Peloponnese
Distance: 0.9621% / 0.00962080
34.2 Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2
34.0 Cypriot
31.8 HUN_Avar_Szolad

Target: Greek_Macedonia
Distance: 0.9530% / 0.00952954
39.4 HUN_Avar_Szolad
33.6 Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2
27.0 Cypriot

Target: Greek_Laconia
Distance: 1.8412% / 0.01841183
38.6 Cypriot
34.4 Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2
27.0 HUN_Avar_Szolad

Target: Greek_Izmir
Distance: 1.3922% / 0.01392153
44.6 Cypriot
30.0 Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2
25.4 HUN_Avar_Szolad

Target: Greek_Dodecanese
Distance: 1.1517% / 0.01151677
72.6 Cypriot
18.4 Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2
9.0 HUN_Avar_Szolad

Target: Greek_Crete
Distance: 0.8232% / 0.00823218
64.2 Cypriot
18.0 Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2
17.8 HUN_Avar_Szolad

Target: Greek_Central_Macedonia
Distance: 1.2198% / 0.01219844
40.2 HUN_Avar_Szolad
33.0 Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2
26.8 Cypriot

Target: Greek_Kos
Distance: 1.5052% / 0.01505219
71.0 Cypriot
18.0 Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2
11.0 HUN_Avar_Szolad

Greekscholar
09-17-2021, 12:53 AM
Maybe it's the isolated Peloponnesian groups like Maniots and/or Tsakonians (of Eastern Laconia/Southeastern Arcadia) who carry this component from the Classical or Roman era vs. Thessalians and/or transplanted Peloponnesians who arrived much later.

Target: Greek_Laconia
Distance: 2.8538% / 0.02853832
75.8 GRC_Helladic_MBA
24.2 Levant_Sidon_MBA

Target: Greek_Peloponnese
Distance: 2.3022% / 0.02302222
81.6 GRC_Helladic_MBA
18.4 Levant_Sidon_MBA


Target: Greek_Thessaly
Distance: 1.9024% / 0.01902430
88.6 GRC_Helladic_MBA
8.0 Levant_Sidon_MBA
3.4 TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA

Yes, there is a lot of genetic diversity within the Peloponnese. G25 samples + our Peloponnesean posters range from PCA space near Albanians all the way down to Southern Italian.

Tony, you may want to read this post by 23abc and check out his model. He shows that those Helladic_MBA samples only superficially resemble modern Mainland Greeks. He describes it better than I can, but more or less his model shows the difference using Corded Ware Steppe samples vs. Baltic Bronze Age ones.

https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?24591-The-genetic-structure-of-Turkey&p=801053#post801053

Michalis Moriopoulos
09-17-2021, 01:04 AM
Target: Greek_Thessaly
Distance: 1.2648% / 0.01264814
42.4 Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2
35.6 HUN_Avar_Szolad
22.0 Cypriot

... etc.

You don't have a Balkan IA reference here. Keep in mind that Empuries here is likely eating some of the Balkan IA ancestry present in the Sclaveni, which might artificially boost the Mycenaean-like ancestry in this model.

Granted, I used to believe the Slavs who invaded Greece were pure Avar Szolad-like. I no longer believe this. I think they will be closer to South Slavic norms. This does still leave room for the possibility of more Balkan IA-like ancestry in Greece (especially northern Greece) during or post-Mycenaean times (ahem, "Dorian invasion") but that might not even be very relevant by the time you get to the time period in which Vranas Marathon lived.

TonyC
09-17-2021, 01:10 AM
Target: Greek_Thessaly
Distance: 1.2648% / 0.01264814
42.4 Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2
35.6 HUN_Avar_Szolad
22.0 Cypriot

Target: Greek_Peloponnese
Distance: 0.9621% / 0.00962080
34.2 Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2
34.0 Cypriot
31.8 HUN_Avar_Szolad

Target: Greek_Macedonia
Distance: 0.9530% / 0.00952954
39.4 HUN_Avar_Szolad
33.6 Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2
27.0 Cypriot

Target: Greek_Laconia
Distance: 1.8412% / 0.01841183
38.6 Cypriot
34.4 Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2
27.0 HUN_Avar_Szolad

Target: Greek_Izmir
Distance: 1.3922% / 0.01392153
44.6 Cypriot
30.0 Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2
25.4 HUN_Avar_Szolad

Target: Greek_Dodecanese
Distance: 1.1517% / 0.01151677
72.6 Cypriot
18.4 Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2
9.0 HUN_Avar_Szolad

Target: Greek_Crete
Distance: 0.8232% / 0.00823218
64.2 Cypriot
18.0 Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2
17.8 HUN_Avar_Szolad

Target: Greek_Central_Macedonia
Distance: 1.2198% / 0.01219844
40.2 HUN_Avar_Szolad
33.0 Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2
26.8 Cypriot

Target: Greek_Kos
Distance: 1.5052% / 0.01505219
71.0 Cypriot
18.0 Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2
11.0 HUN_Avar_Szolad

I just pulled mine to compare:
Target: Anthony_C_scaled
Distance: 1.8186% / 0.01818608
56.8 Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2
31.4 HUN_Avar_Szolad
11.8 Cypriot

Michalis Moriopoulos
09-17-2021, 01:26 AM
An attempt at a model:

https://i.imgur.com/hWAmiIw.png

Averaged Cypriot and Kos under the assumption that Vranas Marathon falls in between them.

Averaged HRV IA and BGR IA under assumption you'll get a fair Balkans IA centroid that way. The Sclaveni probably already had a lot of this ancestry before entering Greece IMO.

Avar Szolad for the northern Euro ancestry in the Sclaveni.

Emporiote and Balkans IA might be somewhat interchangeable here for obvious reasons. BGR IA already had quite a bit of affinity to Mycenaeans/Emporiotes anyway. There might have been a cline in antiquity from Balkans IA-like in most of the Balkans to more Mycenaean-like as you neared Greece itself.

Here's the code:


Emporiote,0.118376,0.158423,-0.009051,-0.0670225,0.0252355,-0.027889,0.001645,-0.005077,0.0049085,0.042552,0.002842,0.01124,-0.016873,0.003578,-0.018526,-0.0157785,0.0035855,0.0003805,0.004588,-0.0126935,-0.008298,0.001546,0.001664,0.0071095,-0.008502
Vranas_Marathon_Sim_(Cypriot+Kos),0.1036818,0.1466 029,-0.029947050000000003,-0.06206085,-0.0014489999999999998,-0.0212753,0.0012533499999999999,-0.0042257499999999995,-0.0015169,0.015329450000000001,0.00354890000000000 02,0.00149865,-0.0006844500000000003,0.0013934,-0.0096013,0.00194265,0.0061869,0.0009705,0.002981,-0.00244565,-0.00313085,0.00141,-0.00144465,0.00018574999999999993,-0.00209065
Balkans_IA_Sim_(HRV_IA+BGR_IA),0.1291895,0.1543605 ,0.020553,-0.033592000000000004,0.027389999999999998,-0.0142235,-0.0010574999999999998,0.0028845,0.0057265,0.030524 999999999997,0.0001625,0.0086925,-0.017542000000000002,-0.002202,-0.0105185,-0.004972000000000001,0.0035855000000000006,0.00595 45,0.005908,-0.014506999999999999,-0.0040555,0.0048845,-0.0032044999999999994,0.003012,-0.0027540000000000004
Avar_Szolad,0.133742,0.12948,0.073727,0.057494,0.0 373915,0.029144,0.0094,0.007269,0.004295,-0.018224,-0.001543,-0.006369,0.0102575,0.017753,-0.0138435,0.0007295,0.0002605,0.0034205,0.0055305, 0.001313,0,-0.002782,0.010846,-0.0069285,0.001736

And some of you intrigued by Euboea, Thessaly, and Central Greece (thanks to 23abc for those) might want the averages for the targets, too:


Greek_Eastern_Rumelia,0.12021469230769231,0.141783 61538461537,0.015868076923076926,-0.014758615384615386,0.016310615384615385,-0.004784153846153846,0.004175846153846154,0.001704 0769230769232,-0.005522153846153845,0.011733076923076926,0.001973 692307692308,-0.0005993846153846153,-0.0024013846153846156,0.007738692307692307,-0.015273846153846153,-0.0005405384615384614,0.010380615384615384,0.00013 646153846153843,0.004031923076923077,-0.0049062307692307695,-0.004664923076923077,-0.001236461538461539,0.002133153846153846,-0.0003984615384615384,-0.0015291538461538463
Greek_Central_Macedonia,0.12065251428571429,0.1431 3168571428567,0.014643085714285716,-0.016482228571428573,0.020434485714285716,-0.004263085714285715,0.002309714285714286,0.001153 828571428571,0.000683657142857143,0.01260557142857 143,0.0012109428571428567,0.0016484571428571429,-0.0024338000000000003,0.008705685714285712,-0.015991714285714286,-0.0027350857142857143,0.006373914285714286,0.00044 15714285714286,0.005659999999999998,-0.004616457142857143,-0.0074762,0.0009857142857142855,0.0026692,-0.0003443142857142857,-0.0007047714285714286
Greek_Thessaly,0.120565,0.14334592307692307,0.0141 8546153846154,-0.01831161538461538,0.021258384615384616,-0.006650615384615384,0.0020246153846153847,0.00083 43076923076921,0.0011484615384615383,0.01464899999 9999999,0.001973692307692308,0.0027206153846153843 ,-0.0043453846153846155,0.003482769230769231,-0.014375846153846152,0.001988846153846154,0.011523 846153846154,0.0008088461538461538,0.0059369230769 23077,-0.0028379230769230764,-0.008504153846153847,0.0013886153846153844,0.00283 4615384615385,0.002928846153846154,-0.0028830769230769235
Greek_Central_Greece,0.11908725,0.1420472499999999 9,0.005232625,-0.024749874999999998,0.01607975,-0.008436375,0.00064625,-0.001557625,-0.00265875,0.014988874999999999,0.003065125,0.0021 355,-0.004812875,0.0044557500000000005,-0.015251625,-0.00222075,0.008116499999999999,0.0021855,0.005027 875,-0.00651875,-0.005349749999999999,0.0011591250000000004,0.00380 5375,0.0008736249999999999,-0.001661375
Greek_Euboea,0.1149615,0.1442055,-0.006034,-0.040052000000000004,0.0127715,-0.015618,0.00011750000000000004,-0.0010385,0.0029655,0.0173125,0.0036535,0.0027725,-0.0015609999999999999,0.005298499999999999,-0.009635999999999999,-0.008154,-0.0076925000000000006,-0.0006965000000000001,0.0039594999999999995,-0.006378,-0.009795,-0.0013605000000000002,-0.0012325,-0.0030724999999999997,-0.0001795
Greek_Peloponnese_Arcadia,0.11875538888888891,0.14 448733333333333,0.0079405,-0.02693461111111111,0.020294333333333338,-0.00959066666666667,0.004282333333333334,-0.0003203888888888884,0.002488388888888889,0.01345 5055555555555,0.004628055555555555,0.0004662222222 2222225,-0.0013958333333333333,0.005581388888888889,-0.01633161111111111,-0.0001695,0.0058672777777777785,0.0015202222222222 223,0.005844888888888889,-0.004877333333333334,-0.00653711111111111,0.0005632777777777779,0.003676 8888888888875,0.0016869444444444443,-0.0011308888888888887
Greek_Peloponnese_Arcadia_o,0.08992,0.148267,0.004 148,-0.0323,0.016003,-0.021475,-0.00658,0.010384,0.000205,0.012939,0.005521,-0.001049,0.006095,-0.00234,-0.00475,0.000663,0.001173,-0.005954,0.007793,-0.007003,-0.001747,-0.000124,0.013557,-0.007712,-0.010179
Greek_Peloponnese_Laconia,0.11837633333333332,0.14 894433333333335,0.0028913333333333326,-0.03509933333333334,0.021029333333333334,-0.008367,0.00023499999999999997,-0.0020770000000000003,0.003954,0.01293866666666666 8,0.003951333333333334,-0.002248,-0.0016846666666666666,0.007569333333333333,-0.015290999999999999,0.006099,0.015124333333333335 ,0.002829333333333333,0.001634,-0.004085333333333333,-0.0036186666666666663,0.003874666666666667,0.00780 56666666666665,0.005542666666666667,-0.004630333333333333
Greek_Peloponnese_Laconia_o1,0.103579,0.149283,0.0 04148,-0.042636,0.020927,-0.014223,0.002585,-0.001385,0.012067,0.018588,0.000325,0.002398,-0.000297,0.001376,-0.012215,0.002784,0.008866,-0.001014,-0.003645,-0.003627,-0.001497,-0.001607,-0.001849,0.002169,0.001796
Greek_Peloponnese_Laconia_o2,0.117237801625585,0.1 42174118601101,0.00980513742892,-0.019380092879034,0.012617745836717,0.000278890659 578,0.006815308503656,0.000230759615184,0.00020452 3837242,0.009658513860838,-0.001948661078792,-0.002697598932384,0,0.013074153892318,-0.01153622555258,0.007425017171697,0.0058672821646 82,-0.000633442972966,0.002765357119795,-0.010755158762194,-0.006363770108984,-0.002473054791144,0.003204440668822,0.008675925310 882,-0.005029489039654
Greek_PeloponneseB,0.118376,0.14386666666666667,0. 003771333333333333,-0.032515333333333334,0.015900333333333332,-0.010412,0.001645,-0.0009229999999999999,-0.000409,0.018101999999999997,0.000108000000000000 02,0.003946666666666667,-0.005896666666666667,0.003715666666666667,-0.016377,0.0023863333333333336,0.01342966666666666 8,0.00033766666666666667,0.009175999999999998,-0.0007083333333333334,-0.009275333333333335,0.003998000000000001,0.001396 6666666666665,-0.0001203333333333334,-0.003392666666666667
Greek_Phokaia,0.117238,0.138112,-0.001508,-0.032623,0.008001,-0.010598,0.006345,-0.005538,-0.005727,0.017677,-0.001786,0.000899,0.000149,0.003578,-0.014251,-0.004906,0.004042,-0.00114,0.004651,-0.000125,-0.002246,0.00643,-0.002465,-0.000482,-0.002634
Greek_Smyrna,0.11306422222222223,0.144769444444444 42,-0.003980666666666666,-0.03653488888888889,0.014566888888888891,-0.012426111111111112,0.002297777777777778,-0.0016666666666666668,-0.002431555555555556,0.012817333333333333,0.002074 888888888889,0.0031140000000000004,-0.0022960000000000003,0.002262888888888889,-0.012682222222222223,-0.001414222222222222,0.010358222222222222,-0.0010417777777777778,0.006005444444444444,-0.00346,-0.006211222222222223,0.0005906666666666667,0.00030 133333333333336,0.0028651111111111112,-0.004084666666666666
Greek_Crete,0.10800794059405944,0.1455323564356435 5,-0.01457702970297031,-0.045290356435643574,0.006788653465346536,-0.015358346534653474,0.002340712871287129,-0.0018735148514851482,-0.0025838613861386144,0.012877415841584154,0.00203 86831683168317,0.0015743366336633665,-0.0017501287128712866,0.00400741584158416,-0.011486514851485148,-0.002286851485148515,0.004688683168316833,0.000963 3168316831681,0.0037485148514851494,-0.004850079207920792,-0.004438970297029704,0.0008423267326732671,0.00066 13960396039604,0.0013850396039603958,-0.0016847326732673258
Greek_Kalymnos,0.10927,0.152329,-0.022627,-0.052972,0.006463,-0.010598,-0.003525,0.002308,-0.010431,0.016037,0.002923,-0.006145,-0.003717,0.00523,-0.007736,0.000133,-0.002347,0.008488,0.001006,-0.005253,-0.005865,-0.006801,0.006039,0.00253,0.000718
Greek_Kos,0.1076261111111111,0.14646177777777777,-0.022040666666666667,-0.053869222222222214,0.004103111111111111,-0.018252,0.0008616666666666667,-0.003692111111111112,-0.005999444444444444,0.01678611111111111,0.0026524 444444444443,0.0031472222222222223,-0.0039147777777777774,0.0009634444444444444,-0.010601222222222222,0.0029905555555555558,0.01001 0666666666668,0.0009432222222222222,0.003715111111 1111113,-0.003640666666666666,-0.0038127777777777778,0.0016762222222222224,-0.00017777777777777787,-0.0014058888888888895,-0.0021156666666666667
Greek_Rhodes,0.10596920000000001,0.146134699999999 98,-0.024437399999999998,-0.0567511,0.0021850999999999997,-0.018378900000000004,0.0038070999999999995,-0.0042228000000000005,-0.0028019,0.016656300000000002,0.0048066,0.0020682 ,-0.0044895000000000004,-0.0005644000000000003,-0.0123505,-0.0012727999999999997,0.0032986999999999995,0.0050 168,0.0058701000000000005,-0.0047523,-0.0043048999999999995,-0.0009647,0.000345,-0.0008676,-0.0034127

TonyC
09-17-2021, 01:45 AM
An attempt at a model:

https://i.imgur.com/hWAmiIw.png

Averaged Cypriot and Kos under the assumption that Vranas Marathon falls in between them.

Averaged HRV IA and BGR IA under assumption you'll get a fair Balkans IA centroid that way. The Sclaveni probably already had a lot of this ancestry before entering Greece IMO.

Avar Szolad for the northern Euro ancestry in the Sclaveni.

Emporiote and Balkans IA might be somewhat interchangeable here for obvious reasons. BGR IA already had quite a bit of affinity to Mycenaeans/Emporiotes anyway. There might have been a cline in antiquity from Balkans IA-like in most of the Balkans to more Mycenaean-like as you neared Greece itself.

Here's the code:


Emporiote,0.118376,0.158423,-0.009051,-0.0670225,0.0252355,-0.027889,0.001645,-0.005077,0.0049085,0.042552,0.002842,0.01124,-0.016873,0.003578,-0.018526,-0.0157785,0.0035855,0.0003805,0.004588,-0.0126935,-0.008298,0.001546,0.001664,0.0071095,-0.008502
Vranas_Marathon_Sim_(Cypriot+Kos),0.1036818,0.1466 029,-0.029947050000000003,-0.06206085,-0.0014489999999999998,-0.0212753,0.0012533499999999999,-0.0042257499999999995,-0.0015169,0.015329450000000001,0.00354890000000000 02,0.00149865,-0.0006844500000000003,0.0013934,-0.0096013,0.00194265,0.0061869,0.0009705,0.002981,-0.00244565,-0.00313085,0.00141,-0.00144465,0.00018574999999999993,-0.00209065
Balkans_IA_Sim_(HRV_IA+BGR_IA),0.1291895,0.1543605 ,0.020553,-0.033592000000000004,0.027389999999999998,-0.0142235,-0.0010574999999999998,0.0028845,0.0057265,0.030524 999999999997,0.0001625,0.0086925,-0.017542000000000002,-0.002202,-0.0105185,-0.004972000000000001,0.0035855000000000006,0.00595 45,0.005908,-0.014506999999999999,-0.0040555,0.0048845,-0.0032044999999999994,0.003012,-0.0027540000000000004
Avar_Szolad,0.133742,0.12948,0.073727,0.057494,0.0 373915,0.029144,0.0094,0.007269,0.004295,-0.018224,-0.001543,-0.006369,0.0102575,0.017753,-0.0138435,0.0007295,0.0002605,0.0034205,0.0055305, 0.001313,0,-0.002782,0.010846,-0.0069285,0.001736

And some of you intrigued by Euboea, Thessaly, and Central Greece (thanks to 23abc for those) might want the averages for the targets, too:


Greek_Eastern_Rumelia,0.12021469230769231,0.141783 61538461537,0.015868076923076926,-0.014758615384615386,0.016310615384615385,-0.004784153846153846,0.004175846153846154,0.001704 0769230769232,-0.005522153846153845,0.011733076923076926,0.001973 692307692308,-0.0005993846153846153,-0.0024013846153846156,0.007738692307692307,-0.015273846153846153,-0.0005405384615384614,0.010380615384615384,0.00013 646153846153843,0.004031923076923077,-0.0049062307692307695,-0.004664923076923077,-0.001236461538461539,0.002133153846153846,-0.0003984615384615384,-0.0015291538461538463
Greek_Central_Macedonia,0.12065251428571429,0.1431 3168571428567,0.014643085714285716,-0.016482228571428573,0.020434485714285716,-0.004263085714285715,0.002309714285714286,0.001153 828571428571,0.000683657142857143,0.01260557142857 143,0.0012109428571428567,0.0016484571428571429,-0.0024338000000000003,0.008705685714285712,-0.015991714285714286,-0.0027350857142857143,0.006373914285714286,0.00044 15714285714286,0.005659999999999998,-0.004616457142857143,-0.0074762,0.0009857142857142855,0.0026692,-0.0003443142857142857,-0.0007047714285714286
Greek_Thessaly,0.120565,0.14334592307692307,0.0141 8546153846154,-0.01831161538461538,0.021258384615384616,-0.006650615384615384,0.0020246153846153847,0.00083 43076923076921,0.0011484615384615383,0.01464899999 9999999,0.001973692307692308,0.0027206153846153843 ,-0.0043453846153846155,0.003482769230769231,-0.014375846153846152,0.001988846153846154,0.011523 846153846154,0.0008088461538461538,0.0059369230769 23077,-0.0028379230769230764,-0.008504153846153847,0.0013886153846153844,0.00283 4615384615385,0.002928846153846154,-0.0028830769230769235
Greek_Central_Greece,0.11908725,0.1420472499999999 9,0.005232625,-0.024749874999999998,0.01607975,-0.008436375,0.00064625,-0.001557625,-0.00265875,0.014988874999999999,0.003065125,0.0021 355,-0.004812875,0.0044557500000000005,-0.015251625,-0.00222075,0.008116499999999999,0.0021855,0.005027 875,-0.00651875,-0.005349749999999999,0.0011591250000000004,0.00380 5375,0.0008736249999999999,-0.001661375
Greek_Euboea,0.1149615,0.1442055,-0.006034,-0.040052000000000004,0.0127715,-0.015618,0.00011750000000000004,-0.0010385,0.0029655,0.0173125,0.0036535,0.0027725,-0.0015609999999999999,0.005298499999999999,-0.009635999999999999,-0.008154,-0.0076925000000000006,-0.0006965000000000001,0.0039594999999999995,-0.006378,-0.009795,-0.0013605000000000002,-0.0012325,-0.0030724999999999997,-0.0001795
Greek_Peloponnese_Arcadia,0.11875538888888891,0.14 448733333333333,0.0079405,-0.02693461111111111,0.020294333333333338,-0.00959066666666667,0.004282333333333334,-0.0003203888888888884,0.002488388888888889,0.01345 5055555555555,0.004628055555555555,0.0004662222222 2222225,-0.0013958333333333333,0.005581388888888889,-0.01633161111111111,-0.0001695,0.0058672777777777785,0.0015202222222222 223,0.005844888888888889,-0.004877333333333334,-0.00653711111111111,0.0005632777777777779,0.003676 8888888888875,0.0016869444444444443,-0.0011308888888888887
Greek_Peloponnese_Arcadia_o,0.08992,0.148267,0.004 148,-0.0323,0.016003,-0.021475,-0.00658,0.010384,0.000205,0.012939,0.005521,-0.001049,0.006095,-0.00234,-0.00475,0.000663,0.001173,-0.005954,0.007793,-0.007003,-0.001747,-0.000124,0.013557,-0.007712,-0.010179
Greek_Peloponnese_Laconia,0.11837633333333332,0.14 894433333333335,0.0028913333333333326,-0.03509933333333334,0.021029333333333334,-0.008367,0.00023499999999999997,-0.0020770000000000003,0.003954,0.01293866666666666 8,0.003951333333333334,-0.002248,-0.0016846666666666666,0.007569333333333333,-0.015290999999999999,0.006099,0.015124333333333335 ,0.002829333333333333,0.001634,-0.004085333333333333,-0.0036186666666666663,0.003874666666666667,0.00780 56666666666665,0.005542666666666667,-0.004630333333333333
Greek_Peloponnese_Laconia_o1,0.103579,0.149283,0.0 04148,-0.042636,0.020927,-0.014223,0.002585,-0.001385,0.012067,0.018588,0.000325,0.002398,-0.000297,0.001376,-0.012215,0.002784,0.008866,-0.001014,-0.003645,-0.003627,-0.001497,-0.001607,-0.001849,0.002169,0.001796
Greek_Peloponnese_Laconia_o2,0.117237801625585,0.1 42174118601101,0.00980513742892,-0.019380092879034,0.012617745836717,0.000278890659 578,0.006815308503656,0.000230759615184,0.00020452 3837242,0.009658513860838,-0.001948661078792,-0.002697598932384,0,0.013074153892318,-0.01153622555258,0.007425017171697,0.0058672821646 82,-0.000633442972966,0.002765357119795,-0.010755158762194,-0.006363770108984,-0.002473054791144,0.003204440668822,0.008675925310 882,-0.005029489039654
Greek_PeloponneseB,0.118376,0.14386666666666667,0. 003771333333333333,-0.032515333333333334,0.015900333333333332,-0.010412,0.001645,-0.0009229999999999999,-0.000409,0.018101999999999997,0.000108000000000000 02,0.003946666666666667,-0.005896666666666667,0.003715666666666667,-0.016377,0.0023863333333333336,0.01342966666666666 8,0.00033766666666666667,0.009175999999999998,-0.0007083333333333334,-0.009275333333333335,0.003998000000000001,0.001396 6666666666665,-0.0001203333333333334,-0.003392666666666667
Greek_Phokaia,0.117238,0.138112,-0.001508,-0.032623,0.008001,-0.010598,0.006345,-0.005538,-0.005727,0.017677,-0.001786,0.000899,0.000149,0.003578,-0.014251,-0.004906,0.004042,-0.00114,0.004651,-0.000125,-0.002246,0.00643,-0.002465,-0.000482,-0.002634
Greek_Smyrna,0.11306422222222223,0.144769444444444 42,-0.003980666666666666,-0.03653488888888889,0.014566888888888891,-0.012426111111111112,0.002297777777777778,-0.0016666666666666668,-0.002431555555555556,0.012817333333333333,0.002074 888888888889,0.0031140000000000004,-0.0022960000000000003,0.002262888888888889,-0.012682222222222223,-0.001414222222222222,0.010358222222222222,-0.0010417777777777778,0.006005444444444444,-0.00346,-0.006211222222222223,0.0005906666666666667,0.00030 133333333333336,0.0028651111111111112,-0.004084666666666666
Greek_Crete,0.10800794059405944,0.1455323564356435 5,-0.01457702970297031,-0.045290356435643574,0.006788653465346536,-0.015358346534653474,0.002340712871287129,-0.0018735148514851482,-0.0025838613861386144,0.012877415841584154,0.00203 86831683168317,0.0015743366336633665,-0.0017501287128712866,0.00400741584158416,-0.011486514851485148,-0.002286851485148515,0.004688683168316833,0.000963 3168316831681,0.0037485148514851494,-0.004850079207920792,-0.004438970297029704,0.0008423267326732671,0.00066 13960396039604,0.0013850396039603958,-0.0016847326732673258
Greek_Kalymnos,0.10927,0.152329,-0.022627,-0.052972,0.006463,-0.010598,-0.003525,0.002308,-0.010431,0.016037,0.002923,-0.006145,-0.003717,0.00523,-0.007736,0.000133,-0.002347,0.008488,0.001006,-0.005253,-0.005865,-0.006801,0.006039,0.00253,0.000718
Greek_Kos,0.1076261111111111,0.14646177777777777,-0.022040666666666667,-0.053869222222222214,0.004103111111111111,-0.018252,0.0008616666666666667,-0.003692111111111112,-0.005999444444444444,0.01678611111111111,0.0026524 444444444443,0.0031472222222222223,-0.0039147777777777774,0.0009634444444444444,-0.010601222222222222,0.0029905555555555558,0.01001 0666666666668,0.0009432222222222222,0.003715111111 1111113,-0.003640666666666666,-0.0038127777777777778,0.0016762222222222224,-0.00017777777777777787,-0.0014058888888888895,-0.0021156666666666667
Greek_Rhodes,0.10596920000000001,0.146134699999999 98,-0.024437399999999998,-0.0567511,0.0021850999999999997,-0.018378900000000004,0.0038070999999999995,-0.0042228000000000005,-0.0028019,0.016656300000000002,0.0048066,0.0020682 ,-0.0044895000000000004,-0.0005644000000000003,-0.0123505,-0.0012727999999999997,0.0032986999999999995,0.0050 168,0.0058701000000000005,-0.0047523,-0.0043048999999999995,-0.0009647,0.000345,-0.0008676,-0.0034127

Here's what i get with your model:
Target: Anthony_C_scaled
Distance: 1.8071% / 0.01807063
55.2 Emporiote
30.6 Avar_Szolad
14.2 Vranas_Marathon_Sim_(Cypriot+Kos)

Ylang-Ylang
09-17-2021, 01:45 AM
You don't have a Balkan IA reference here. Keep in mind that Empuries here is likely eating some of the Balkan IA ancestry present in the Sclaveni, which might artificially boost the Mycenaean-like ancestry in this model.

Granted, I used to believe the Slavs who invaded Greece were pure Avar Szolad-like. I no longer believe this. I think they will be closer to South Slavic norms. This does still leave room for the possibility of more Balkan IA-like ancestry in Greece (especially northern Greece) during or post-Mycenaean times (ahem, "Dorian invasion") but that might not even be very relevant by the time you get to the time period in which Vranas Marathon lived.

I think that migrations were more time consuming in the past. No quick trains and planes.
Unless a group entered mostly empty lands. Someone mentioned the Justinian plagues and decrease of the Eastern Roman population.
So some ancient group of migrating people finally absorb other populations in them.
Compare it with a more recent group such as the Roma people (Gitano) from Spain.
Their Indian component is still very visible, but they obviously picked up Iranian/Levant/Anatolian and Balkan populations in their genetic pool. And finally some Iberian genetics.

In case of the Slavs they must had inherited some ancient Balkan genetics. And I think they had some distant Asian/Siberian/Caucasus components and probably some Central European and NW European admixture with a big chunk of NE European genetics?

I hope they will find some real Slavic invader. Because it will be hard to find a real one because they cremated their loved ones.

Anyway, who/what were the Dorians exactly? Lol
Maybe they looked more like Pontians.
It sounds weird but you never know with ancient genetics…
I get the feeling there is something up with Pontian/Armenian-like genetics in ancient Greece..

Remember when people in the past all expected that the real original ancient Greeks were pure fair/pinkish skinned blue eyed blonde big Germanic people? And all those dark modern ones are mongrels from ‘muslim races’.
One huge believer of this told me that geneticists are liars. Lol

Greekscholar
09-17-2021, 01:48 AM
Target: GS_family(Fourni/Ikaria/Samos):GS(Fourni/Ikaria/Samos)
Distance: 1.9543% / 0.01954253
56.8 Vranas_Marathon_Sim_(Cypriot+Kos)
26.8 Emporiote
16.4 Avar_Szolad

Target: GS_family(Fourni/Ikaria/Samos):GS_Dad(Fourni/Ikaria/Samos)
Distance: 2.3170% / 0.02317016
59.2 Vranas_Marathon_Sim_(Cypriot+Kos)
22.6 Emporiote
18.2 Avar_Szolad

Target: GS_family(Fourni/Ikaria/Samos):YiaYia(Fourni/Ikaria)
Distance: 2.5198% / 0.02519771
64.8 Vranas_Marathon_Sim_(Cypriot+Kos)
16.6 Balkans_IA_Sim_(HRV_IA+BGR_IA)
12.4 Avar_Szolad
6.2 Emporiote

Distance to: GS_family(Fourni/Ikaria/Samos):GS(Fourni/Ikaria/Samos)
0.04016246 Vranas_Marathon_Sim_(Cypriot+Kos)
0.05202107 Emporiote
0.05239012 Balkans_IA_Sim_(HRV_IA+BGR_IA)
0.15067327 Avar_Szolad

TonyC
09-17-2021, 01:48 AM
Here's what i get with your model:
Target: Anthony_C_scaled
Distance: 1.8071% / 0.01807063
55.2 Emporiote
30.6 Avar_Szolad
14.2 Vranas_Marathon_Sim_(Cypriot+Kos)

Albanian:
Target: Albanian
Distance: 1.2231% / 0.01223068
35.6 Emporiote
35.2 Avar_Szolad
22.0 Vranas_Marathon_Sim_(Cypriot+Kos)
7.2 Balkans_IA_Sim_(HRV_IA+BGR_IA)

TonyC
09-17-2021, 02:20 AM
It's strange that the Bulgarian sample gets such high Vranas Marathon vs. Serbia which gets the higher Empuries component.

Target: Bulgarian
Distance: 1.7847% / 0.01784657 | R2P | ADC: 0.25x RC
53.6 Avar_Szolad
46.4 Vranas_Marathon_Sim_(Cypriot+Kos)


Target: Serbian
Distance: 1.4281% / 0.01428055 | R2P | ADC: 0.25x RC
64.4 Avar_Szolad
35.6 Emporiote

Greekscholar
09-17-2021, 02:42 AM
It's strange that the Bulgarian sample gets such high Vranas Marathon vs. Serbia which gets the higher Empuries component.

Target: Bulgarian
Distance: 1.7847% / 0.01784657 | R2P | ADC: 0.25x RC
53.6 Avar_Szolad
46.4 Vranas_Marathon_Sim_(Cypriot+Kos)


Target: Serbian
Distance: 1.4281% / 0.01428055 | R2P | ADC: 0.25x RC
64.4 Avar_Szolad
35.6 Emporiote

FWIW, Bulgarians are much closer genetically to modern Greeks, especially Mainland Greeks compared to Serbs

Distance to: Bulgarian
0.02800736 Greek_Eastern_Rumelia
0.02879603 Greek_Central_Macedonia
0.03320516 Greek_Thessaly
0.03847620 Greek_Peloponnese_Laconia_o2
0.04206957 Greek_Peloponnese_Arcadia
0.04230302 Greek_Central_Greece
0.05133416 Greek_PeloponneseB
0.05394134 Greek_Peloponnese_Laconia
0.05475817 Greek_Phokaia
0.05785861 Greek_Smyrna
0.06445546 Greek_Peloponnese_Laconia_o1
0.06467830 Greek_Euboea
0.06850029 Greek_Peloponnese_Arcadia_o
0.07269534 Greek_Crete
0.08563573 Greek_Kos
0.08584926 Greek_Kalymnos
0.08977557 Greek_Rhodes

Distance to: Serbian
0.04668693 Greek_Eastern_Rumelia
0.04705025 Greek_Central_Macedonia
0.05106293 Greek_Thessaly
0.05451051 Greek_Peloponnese_Laconia_o2
0.06023805 Greek_Peloponnese_Arcadia
0.06182481 Greek_Central_Greece
0.07018627 Greek_PeloponneseB
0.07095960 Greek_Peloponnese_Laconia
0.07500926 Greek_Phokaia
0.07691666 Greek_Smyrna
0.08201170 Greek_Peloponnese_Laconia_o1
0.08303614 Greek_Euboea
0.08340328 Greek_Peloponnese_Arcadia_o
0.09203271 Greek_Crete
0.10351578 Greek_Kalymnos
0.10532611 Greek_Kos
0.10938093 Greek_Rhodes

Without placing restriction on the calculator this comes through.

Target: Bulgarian
Distance: 1.3296% / 0.01329631
50.0 Avar_Szolad
28.0 Vranas_Marathon_Sim_(Cypriot+Kos)
12.2 Emporiote
9.8 Balkans_IA_Sim_(HRV_IA+BGR_IA)

Target: Serbian
Distance: 1.2891% / 0.01289147
57.2 Avar_Szolad
23.8 Balkans_IA_Sim_(HRV_IA+BGR_IA)
19.0 Vranas_Marathon_Sim_(Cypriot+Kos)

Ylang-Ylang
09-17-2021, 03:14 AM
I feel a lot is missing here especially in case of Thessaly.


Target: Greek_Thessaly
Distance: 1.0392% / 0.01039186
29.4 Vranas_Marathon_Sim_(Cypriot+Kos)
27.6 Avar_Szolad
24.0 Balkans_IA_Sim_(HRV_IA+BGR_IA)
19.0 Emporiote


Target: Greek_Peloponnese
Distance: 0.7969% / 0.00796888
41.0 Vranas_Marathon_Sim_(Cypriot+Kos)
28.2 Avar_Szolad
25.8 Emporiote
5.0 Balkans_IA_Sim_(HRV_IA+BGR_IA)


After some additions. Thessaly seem to be more complicated than the Peloponnese.


Target: Greek_Thessaly
Distance: 0.7694% / 0.00769436
34.4 Emporiote
20.2 Avar_Szolad
15.2 Italian_Veneto
7.4 Balkans_IA_Sim_(HRV_IA+BGR_IA)
7.0 Iranian_Persian_Central
4.4 Italian_Calabria
3.4 Vranas_Marathon_Sim_(Cypriot+Kos)
2.2 Armenian_Hemsheni
2.2 VK2020_RUS_Gnezdovo_VA
2.0 England_Saxon
1.6 Armenian

Target: Greek_Peloponnese
Distance: 0.7950% / 0.00795035
37.8 Vranas_Marathon_Sim_(Cypriot+Kos)
28.4 Avar_Szolad
25.6 Emporiote
6.2 Balkans_IA_Sim_(HRV_IA+BGR_IA)
2.0 Levant_Sidon_MBA


In case you wonder why Thessaly hits such as Iranians and Peloponnesos don’t, I only get this explanation from the internet:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Thessaly

“In the summer of 480 BC, the Persians invaded Thessaly. The Greek army that guarded the Vale of Tempe evacuated the road before the enemy arrived. ... In the 4th century BC Thessaly became dependent on Macedon. In the 2nd century BC, as with the rest of Greece, Thessaly came under the control of the Roman Republic.”

“ Byzantium, confronted by long and bloody wars with Sassanid Persia in the east, and with the Avar Khaganate in the north, was largely unable to stop these raids. After the murder of Emperor Maurice in 602 and the outbreak of the great Byzantine–Sasanian War of 602–628, the Danube frontier, somewhat stabilized under Maurice, collapsed entirely, leaving the Balkans defenceless for the Slavs to raid and settle.”

“ After the disastrous Battle of Ankara in 1402, the weakened Ottomans were forced to return the eastern coasts of Thessaly and the region of Zetounion to Byzantine rule. In 1423, however, the renewed Ottoman pressure forced the local Byzantine commander to surrender the forts of Stylida and Avlaki to the Venetians. By 1444, however, the entire region had been finally conquered by the Turks. Pteleos alone remained in Venetian hands until 1470.”

Sorcelow
09-17-2021, 03:40 AM
I feel a lot is missing here especially in case of Thessaly.


Target: Greek_Thessaly
Distance: 1.0392% / 0.01039186
29.4 Vranas_Marathon_Sim_(Cypriot+Kos)
27.6 Avar_Szolad
24.0 Balkans_IA_Sim_(HRV_IA+BGR_IA)
19.0 Emporiote


Target: Greek_Peloponnese
Distance: 0.7969% / 0.00796888
41.0 Vranas_Marathon_Sim_(Cypriot+Kos)
28.2 Avar_Szolad
25.8 Emporiote
5.0 Balkans_IA_Sim_(HRV_IA+BGR_IA)


After some additions. Thessaly seem to be more complicated than the Peloponnese.


Target: Greek_Thessaly
Distance: 0.7694% / 0.00769436
34.4 Emporiote
20.2 Avar_Szolad
15.2 Italian_Veneto
7.4 Balkans_IA_Sim_(HRV_IA+BGR_IA)
7.0 Iranian_Persian_Central
4.4 Italian_Calabria
3.4 Vranas_Marathon_Sim_(Cypriot+Kos)
2.2 Armenian_Hemsheni
2.2 VK2020_RUS_Gnezdovo_VA
2.0 England_Saxon
1.6 Armenian

Target: Greek_Peloponnese
Distance: 0.7950% / 0.00795035
37.8 Vranas_Marathon_Sim_(Cypriot+Kos)
28.4 Avar_Szolad
25.6 Emporiote
6.2 Balkans_IA_Sim_(HRV_IA+BGR_IA)
2.0 Levant_Sidon_MBA


In case you wonder why Thessaly hits such as Iranians and Peloponnesos don’t, I only get this explanation from the internet:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Thessaly

“In the summer of 480 BC, the Persians invaded Thessaly. The Greek army that guarded the Vale of Tempe evacuated the road before the enemy arrived. ... In the 4th century BC Thessaly became dependent on Macedon. In the 2nd century BC, as with the rest of Greece, Thessaly came under the control of the Roman Republic.”

“ Byzantium, confronted by long and bloody wars with Sassanid Persia in the east, and with the Avar Khaganate in the north, was largely unable to stop these raids. After the murder of Emperor Maurice in 602 and the outbreak of the great Byzantine–Sasanian War of 602–628, the Danube frontier, somewhat stabilized under Maurice, collapsed entirely, leaving the Balkans defenceless for the Slavs to raid and settle.”

“ After the disastrous Battle of Ankara in 1402, the weakened Ottomans were forced to return the eastern coasts of Thessaly and the region of Zetounion to Byzantine rule. In 1423, however, the renewed Ottoman pressure forced the local Byzantine commander to surrender the forts of Stylida and Avlaki to the Venetians. By 1444, however, the entire region had been finally conquered by the Turks. Pteleos alone remained in Venetian hands until 1470.”

You're reading way too much into it. There is no need to add Calabrians, Anglo Saxons and Iranians to model mainland Greeks. Just use LBA Greeks, Dodecanesians, and a Slavic source and you will be set.

dosas
09-17-2021, 04:00 AM
The Hellenistic sample is not even out yet and already people are crying in disbelief.

"Mainland" Greek with Cypriot MENA genetics! The horror! :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:


My advice is to stop obsessing about the BA and the IA and read up on history, especially the time frame between 323 B.C. and the 1900s. You never know what you might learn.

Ylang-Ylang
09-17-2021, 04:44 AM
When I add Albanian in the mix, Thessaly will get nothing, Peloponnese gets a lot.
Thessaly gets Greek_Central_Anatolia.

Target: Greek_Thessaly
Distance: 0.7624% / 0.00762374
35.0 Emporiote
21.0 Avar_Szolad
13.0 Italian_Veneto
8.2 Greek_Central_Anatolia
7.0 Iranian_Persian_Central
5.6 Balkans_IA_Sim_(HRV_IA+BGR_IA)
5.2 Italian_Calabria
3.2 England_Saxon
1.2 VK2020_RUS_Gnezdovo_VA
0.6 Spanish_Cataluna

Target: Greek_Peloponnese
Distance: 0.6032% / 0.00603187
43.2 Albanian
21.2 Vranas_Marathon_Sim_(Cypriot+Kos)
13.4 Avar_Szolad
9.0 Emporiote
6.6 Balkans_IA_Sim_(HRV_IA+BGR_IA)
6.6 Levant_Sidon_MBA

lockdownboredom
09-17-2021, 06:36 AM
An attempt at a model:

Averaged Cypriot and Kos under the assumption that Vranas Marathon falls in between them.

Averaged HRV IA and BGR IA under assumption you'll get a fair Balkans IA centroid that way. The Sclaveni probably already had a lot of this ancestry before entering Greece IMO.

Avar Szolad for the northern Euro ancestry in the Sclaveni.

Emporiote and Balkans IA might be somewhat interchangeable here for obvious reasons. BGR IA already had quite a bit of affinity to Mycenaeans/Emporiotes anyway. There might have been a cline in antiquity from Balkans IA-like in most of the Balkans to more Mycenaean-like as you neared Greece itself.



Target: LB_scaled
Distance: 3.0653% / 0.03065273
41.2 Emporiote
41.0 Avar_Szolad
17.8 Vranas_Marathon_Sim_(Cypriot+Kos)

Revised Model:

Target: LB_scaled
Distance: 2.7309% / 0.02730908
63.8 1Emporiote
32.4 4Baltic_LTU_BA
3.6 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
0.2 5Avar_Szolad

https://i.ibb.co/vjg3Vpx/g25.png

CyrylBojarski
09-17-2021, 06:42 AM
3/4 North Euro 1/4 Bulgarian


Target: Cyryl_mom_scaled
Distance: 3.0653% / 0.03065321 | R2P
81.6 Avar_Szolad
18.4 Vranas_Marathon_Sim_(Cypriot+Kos)

Target: Cyryl_mom_scaled
Distance: 2.6838% / 0.02683785 | R2P
83.6 Ukrainian
16.4 Vranas_Marathon_Sim_(Cypriot+Kos)

lacreme
09-17-2021, 10:51 AM
With Michalis model this is what my Greek friend, his mom and her non bio father get


Target: Chris_scaled
Distance: 1.7899% / 0.01789942
59.6 Vranas_Marathon_Sim_(Cypriot+Kos)
18.2 Avar_Szolad
15.4 Balkans_IA_Sim_(HRV_IA+BGR_IA)
6.8 Emporiote


Target: ChrisMom_scaled
Distance: 2.5407% / 0.02540736
71.8 Vranas_Marathon_Sim_(Cypriot+Kos)
16.8 Avar_Szolad
11.4 Emporiote


Target: Chris_nonbio_grandpa_scaled
Distance: 2.3770% / 0.02377022
53.2 Emporiote
33.0 Avar_Szolad
13.8 Vranas_Marathon_Sim_(Cypriot+Kos)

Her non bio father has VERY similar results to TonyC

EDIT:
A general question,
I 've seen that when using a 3 way model of something Mycenean like + Cypriot like + Slavic on the Balkan populations the "Slavic" component actually increases compared to the much less accurate 2 way IA Balkan + Slavic model. Why is that ? Is it due to the little to no Steppe of the other 2 populations in the 3 way model ?

rafc
09-17-2021, 12:14 PM
If the Cypriot like ancestry is representative for Roman age Greeks, wouldn't a model of just Cypriot + Slavic make more sense than also including Empuries? Since it would imply Cyprus already contains part Empuries too. For a three way model it might make more sense to take Empuries + Slavic + something representative of the East-Med influx in Classical/Hellenistic/Roman era instead.

Michalis Moriopoulos
09-17-2021, 12:44 PM
If the Cypriot like ancestry is representative for Roman age Greeks, wouldn't a model of just Cypriot + Slavic make more sense than also including Empuries? Since it would imply Cyprus already contains part Empuries too. For a three way model it might make more sense to take Empuries + Slavic + something representative of the East-Med influx in Classical/Hellenistic/Roman era instead.

Sure, I do that all the time. What Empuries is often capturing in these models is probably just the Balkan IA ancestry that was brought by ostensibly South Slavic-like people moving into Greece.

https://i.imgur.com/dxui9qA.png

Riverman
09-17-2021, 01:15 PM
Sure, I do that all the time. What Empuries is often capturing in these models is probably just the Balkan IA ancestry that was brought by ostensibly South Slavic-like people moving into Greece.


With all the different people which came to Greece it might be too complicated for such tools to grasp it in detail. Generally yes, but in detail no. Because there were various people from the North, and various people from the South East coming in. How well do those tools with such similar ancestries? Not that good at all, I'd say.
I also doubt that Hellenistic Greece was all but homogeneous, but some valleys, villages and islands might have differed from the rest quite a lot. So any single sample might just represent itself rather than the general population. Even though I don't doubt that an Eastern shift took place in Hellenistic times, since that's the only logical conclusion. But the details might be quite complicated and differentiated.

dosas
09-17-2021, 01:16 PM
Sure, I do that all the time. What Empuries is often capturing in these models is probably just the Balkan IA ancestry that was brought by ostensibly South Slavic-like people moving into Greece.




It looks like Rhodes takes the crown of being the "Real Greeks".

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Ten years of being put down as outsiders, oh how the tables have turned.

Sorry, carry on.

:heh:

bovefex
09-17-2021, 01:51 PM
Possibly unrelated, but do you guys think the fact that the unreleased Roman Age Greek sample is so close to Cypriots and Aegean Islands is significant or relevant in any way to Anatolian Greeks, such as Central Anatolians and Pontics? Could this sample be used to help model those groups too?

Also, does anyone have any idea from which period in the Roman Era that sample might be?

Michalis Moriopoulos
09-17-2021, 02:22 PM
Possibly unrelated, but do you guys think the fact that the unreleased Roman Age Greek sample is so close to Cypriots and Aegean Islands is significant or relevant in any way to Anatolian Greeks

Yes, for Western Anatolian Greeks. I think pre-Slavic Greeks from Balkans, Aegean islands, and Western Anatolia will look fairly similar (Cypriot/Dodecanese-like base-- what you might call "Aegeo-Anatolian" if East Med isn't good enough), with some expected regional variation of course.


Such as Central Anatolians and Pontics? Could this sample be used to help model those groups too?

Not that relevant for them, at least not beyond some expected East Med pulls that they probably have. I do expect there was probably a Roman era cline from East Med/Cypriot-like in Western Anatolia to Cappadocian and Pontic-like as you moved east, though.


Also, does anyone have any idea from which period in the Roman Era that sample might be?

252-412 CE.

bovefex
09-17-2021, 02:25 PM
Yes, for Western Anatolian Greeks. I think pre-Slavic Greeks from Balkans, Aegean islands, and Western Anatolia will look fairly similar (Cypriot/Dodecanese-like base-- what you might call "Aegeo-Anatolian" if East Med isn't good enough), with some expected regional variation of course.



Not that relevant for them, at least not beyond some expected East Med pulls that they probably have. I do expect there was probably a Roman era cline from East Med/Cypriot-like in Western Anatolia to Cappadocian and Pontic-like as you moved east, though.



252-412 CE.

Thank you very much for your detailed response!

Sorcelow
09-17-2021, 05:36 PM
Sure, I do that all the time. What Empuries is often capturing in these models is probably just the Balkan IA ancestry that was brought by ostensibly South Slavic-like people moving into Greece.

https://i.imgur.com/dxui9qA.png

I have to disagree. Even if the Slavs who settled the Peloponnese were south Slavic like (which I personally do not believe), modern Peloponnesians are still too western on average to simply be a two way mix between Dodecanesian/Cypriot and Serbian-like populations.

In my opinion, the pre Slavic inhabitants of the Peloponnese will likely occupy the PCA space between the LBA Greek samples, and modern day Dodecanesians, with some individuals touching both clusters.

https://scontent-lga3-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.15752-9/242067474_951562405405090_8114889498003914335_n.pn g?_nc_cat=101&ccb=1-5&_nc_sid=ae9488&_nc_ohc=gS1P49YckaAAX-wMDec&_nc_ht=scontent-lga3-2.xx&oh=8794adfe6eb18e0b4c821243eb124abd&oe=616A4C5C

TonyC
09-17-2021, 06:10 PM
I have to disagree. Even if the Slavs who settled the Peloponnese were south Slavic like (which I personally do not believe), modern Peloponnesians are still too western on average to simply be a two way mix between Dodecanesian/Cypriot and Serbian-like populations.

In my opinion, the pre Slavic inhabitants of the Peloponnese will likely occupy the PCA space between the LBA Greek samples, and modern day Dodecanesians, with some individuals touching both clusters.

https://scontent-lga3-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.15752-9/242067474_951562405405090_8114889498003914335_n.pn g?_nc_cat=101&ccb=1-5&_nc_sid=ae9488&_nc_ohc=gS1P49YckaAAX-wMDec&_nc_ht=scontent-lga3-2.xx&oh=8794adfe6eb18e0b4c821243eb124abd&oe=616A4C5C

That’s just one sample from Roman era. One question I have is about the location of sample and who/what this sample represents historically. There were folks living in mountain communities, pretty isolated from more cosmopolitan communities that may have been preserving a paleo-Balkan genetic heritage with negligible East Med admixture. I’m not in no way shape or form dismissing the possibility that an East Med/Anatolian genetic influx occurred but questioning where/what capacity. That’s why I question sweeping statements based on single samples.

Sorcelow
09-17-2021, 06:15 PM
That’s just one sample from Roman era. One question I have is about the location of sample and who/what this sample represents historically. There were folks living in mountain communities, pretty isolated from more cosmopolitan communities that may have been preserving a paleo-Balkan genetic heritage with negligible East Med admixture. I’m not in no way shape or form dismissing the possibility that an East Med/Anatolian genetic influx occurred but questioning where/what capacity. That’s why I question sweeping statements based on single samples.

I think you are completely right. Interestingly, out of all the Peloponnesians in G25, you show the least amount of Dodecanesian-like ancestry

Target: Greek_Peloponnese:Anthony_C_scaled
Distance: 1.5002% / 0.01500199
40.2 Greek_LBA
22.0 Polish
19.2 Greek_Dodecanese
18.6 Balkans_IA

Riverman
09-17-2021, 06:21 PM
I have to disagree. Even if the Slavs who settled the Peloponnese were south Slavic like (which I personally do not believe), modern Peloponnesians are still too western on average to simply be a two way mix between Dodecanesian/Cypriot and Serbian-like populations.

In my opinion, the pre Slavic inhabitants of the Peloponnese will likely occupy the PCA space between the LBA Greek samples, and modern day Dodecanesians, with some individuals touching both clusters.


By the way, what's with the Albanian and Vlach settlers? They need to be taken into account as well and are even less of a 2-way mixture. Fact is, it will be much more complicated. Anyway, they would plot exactly on the line you have drawn or pull it from the Serbs. Coincidence?
I also think that native pre-Vlach/Albanian Greeks will also be pulled somewhat in the very same direction.

Archetype0ne
09-17-2021, 06:36 PM
Sure, I do that all the time. What Empuries is often capturing in these models is probably just the Balkan IA ancestry that was brought by ostensibly South Slavic-like people moving into Greece.

https://i.imgur.com/dxui9qA.png

Would a pre-Slavic pull north, akin to the Helladic samples not be more likely, with further Slavic pull later on?
Since from what I understand Helladic samples already look very close to Thessalians, Central Macedonians, Albanians. And they certainly were not Slavs.
If you are basing the statement on the recent Danubian limes paper, I do believe the methodology is flawed to say the least, deceiving at worst(not even Davidski, who is in the sources had no positive opinion on the model).
Otherwise I do believe something like HRV EBA/MBA or BGR IA + Minoan/Mycenean or Modern Cyprus like mix could give Log like samples no? Have not tested the model.

Also keep in mind, that profiles akin to modern Italians, Albanians and mainland Greeks were present as far as Moravia (one of my closest matches) during the middle ages.

Edit: This model is likely trash. Did not know which placeholder to put for Ancient Anatolian Greeks :(.
But here goes nothing
https://i.imgur.com/lNFzBZH.png

Edit: Was trying to capture the Cypriot like ancestry somehow with Levant, but I think with the sources I took, it looks like a terrible fit. Maybe one of the more knowledgeable members regarding Cyprus auDNA can fix the model. Also does someone know if we have auDNA from Anatolian Greeks from BA/IA ?

peloponnesian
09-17-2021, 09:01 PM
Since from what I understand Helladic samples already look very close to Thessalians, Central Macedonians, Albanians. And they certainly were not Slavs.
If you are basing the statement on the recent Danubian limes paper, I do believe the methodology is flawed to say the least, deceiving at worst(not even Davidski, who is in the sources had no positive opinion on the model).
Otherwise I do believe something like HRV EBA/MBA or BGR IA + Minoan/Mycenean or Modern Cyprus like mix could give Log like samples no? Have not tested the model.

There's no evidence that EBA/MBA profiles like HRV and Logkas even existed at any time in ancient southern Greece, let alone that they survived until the Classical period and beyond. By all accounts, the proto-Greeks (if we accept that the Logkas girls were that) mixed very quickly with the existing Minoan-like substratum. I don't know about rural, isolated communities in the ancient times but the isolated communities we know from modern times (Maniots and Tsakonians) look to have a very southern, almost islander-like profile.

TonyC
09-17-2021, 10:36 PM
There's no evidence that EBA/MBA profiles like HRV and Logkas even existed at any time in ancient southern Greece, let alone that they survived until the Classical period and beyond. By all accounts, the proto-Greeks (if we accept that the Logkas girls were that) mixed very quickly with the existing Minoan-like substratum. I don't know about rural, isolated communities in the ancient times but the isolated communities we know from modern times (Maniots and Tsakonians) look to have a very southern, almost islander-like profile.

I agree that in deep Mani and Tsakonia there is a Southern shift but what about the other mountainous areas of the Peloponnese like Northern Arcadia where there were shepherd communities (not Vlachs) that may have been in this region since at least the Byzantine era and were non Slavs. These folks may very well have been from Central, Northern, NE mainland Greece but I don't necessarily believe that Maniots and/or Tsakonians fully represent the isolated, mountainous regions of Southern Greece.

J Man
09-17-2021, 11:39 PM
I agree that in deep Mani and Tsakonia there is a Southern shift but what about the other mountainous areas of the Peloponnese like Northern Arcadia where there were shepherd communities (not Vlachs) that may have been in this region since at least the Byzantine era and were non Slavs. These folks may very well have been from Central, Northern, NE mainland Greece but I don't necessarily believe that Maniots and/or Tsakonians fully represent the isolated, mountainous regions of Southern Greece.

It would be interesting to see the Y-DNA results of the mountainous shepherd communities from Northern Arcadia that you mention.

J Man
09-17-2021, 11:54 PM
There's no evidence that EBA/MBA profiles like HRV and Logkas even existed at any time in ancient southern Greece, let alone that they survived until the Classical period and beyond. By all accounts, the proto-Greeks (if we accept that the Logkas girls were that) mixed very quickly with the existing Minoan-like substratum. I don't know about rural, isolated communities in the ancient times but the isolated communities we know from modern times (Maniots and Tsakonians) look to have a very southern, almost islander-like profile.

I know of a few Y-DNA haplogroup J2a results from Mani. It is possible that Mani and Tsakonia have a lot of J2a. As more are tested over the years it will be interesting to see if this pattern continues. If Mani and Tsakonia have concentrations of J2a this may go along with the very "Southern/Islander" like autosomal profile of these regions as well.

Ylang-Ylang
09-17-2021, 11:57 PM
I noticed that all the Greek-like samples in Rome at Imperial era were between Greek Kos/Dodecanese, Central Anatolian Greeks and Cypriots.
There were several Island Greek-like people buried in Imperial era Rome.
I couldn’t find any sample looking like Greek Peloponnese, Greek Thessaly, Greek Macedonia.
It doesn’t mean all these Cypriot/Dodecanese-like samples didn’t come from the mainland.
The modern mainland admixtures didn’t exist yet so it was very possible that the origins of these Hellenic-like Roman samples is from mainland Greece in my opinion.
It is possible that Hellenistic Romans from mainland Greece were not exactly one absolute admix.
As we know that many Syrians and Anatolians may have moved to mainland Greece as well, what possibly caused the Cypriot-like mixes in mainland Greece.
There were many Syrians in Rome, so why not in mainland Greece?
Davidski said that Cypriot-like does not exactly need to be from Cyprus.
Cypriot is simply Levant/Anatolian mix. Without the large Slavic component of modern mainland Greeks.

I see some scenario: Mycenaean-like mixing with Anatolian/Levant immigrants created citizens looking like something between Cypriots and Dodecanese Greeks in Roman era and possibly earlier in the Classical Greek era.

Later medieval Slavic migration into mainland Greece created modern mainland Greek admixtures and decreased the Eastern dna components. That’s it.

TonyC
09-18-2021, 12:30 AM
I noticed that all the Greek-like samples in Rome at Imperial era were between Greek Kos/Dodecanese, Central Anatolian Greeks and Cypriots.
There were several Island Greek-like people buried in Imperial era Rome.
I couldn’t find any sample looking like Greek Peloponnese, Greek Thessaly, Greek Macedonia.
It doesn’t mean all these Cypriot/Dodecanese-like samples didn’t come from the mainland.
The modern mainland admixtures didn’t exist yet so it was very possible that the origins of these Hellenic-like Roman samples is from mainland Greece in my opinion.
It is possible that Hellenistic Romans from mainland Greece were not exactly one absolute admix.
As we know that many Syrians and Anatolians may have moved to mainland Greece as well, what possibly caused the Cypriot-like mixes in mainland Greece.
There were many Syrians in Rome, so why not in mainland Greece?
Davidski said that Cypriot-like does not exactly need to be from Cyprus.
Cypriot is simply Levant/Anatolian mix. Without the large Slavic component of modern mainland Greeks.

I see some scenario: Mycenaean-like mixing with Anatolian/Levant immigrants created citizens looking like something between Cypriots and Dodecanese Greeks in Roman era and possibly earlier in the Classical Greek era.

Later medieval Slavic migration into mainland Greece created modern mainland Greek admixtures and decreased the Eastern dna components. That’s it.

I'm not sure it's as simple as that. I still don't really see evidence from my readings of post classical era Greece, Hellenistic Greece and the Roman era where there was an influx of folks from the Middle East. Give me evidence. If anything there was an exodus from the Mainland to Anatolia, Middle East, North Africa, etc. not the opposite.

lockdownboredom
09-18-2021, 12:41 AM
Target: LB_scaled
Distance: 3.0653% / 0.03065273
41.2 Emporiote
41.0 Avar_Szolad
17.8 Vranas_Marathon_Sim_(Cypriot+Kos)

Revised Model:

Target: LB_scaled
Distance: 2.7309% / 0.02730908
63.8 1Emporiote
32.4 4Baltic_LTU_BA
3.6 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
0.2 5Avar_Szolad

[img]https://i.ibb.co/vjg3Vpx/g25.png[img]


Slightly better result with a new model:

Target: LB_scaled
Distance: 2.4078% / 0.02407796
75.0 1.Greek&Balkan
20.2 2.Slav
4.8 3.MENA

[img]https://i.ibb.co/J3JWxcS/g252.png[img]

If anyone wants to try it:



1.Greek & Balkan:GRC_Helladic_MBA:Log02,0.118376,0.153345,0. 018479,-0.022933,0.028621,-0.01506,-0.00094,-0.003461,0.0045,0.022051,0.00065,0.007044,-0.016501,0.00055,-0.014522,-0.013126,-0.006519,0.002154,0.004022,-0.003377,-0.009733,-0.000371,0.009244,0.001807,0.000838
1.Greek & Balkan:GRC_Helladic_MBA:Log04,0.122929,0.14319,0.0 26776,-0.000969,0.016003,-0.005578,-0.007755,-0.003,-0.006749,0.004374,0.002923,0.015586,-0.010852,0.001376,-0.004343,-0.012729,-0.006258,-0.003801,0.010433,-0.013882,-0.013476,0.005564,0.006902,0.008917,-0.005029
1.Greek & Balkan:GRC_Minoan_EBA,0.114961,0.171624,-0.017348,-0.091409,0.02739,-0.035419,0.00423,-0.002538,0.02168,0.055946,0.010393,0.004946,-0.015163,0.003716,-0.033659,-0.026651,-0.001043,0.004054,0.007919,-0.01038,-0.009858,0.007914,-0.003821,-0.004699,0.001676
1.Greek & Balkan:Emporiote,0.118376,0.158423,-0.009051,-0.0670225,0.0252355,-0.027889,0.001645,-0.005077,0.0049085,0.042552,0.002842,0.01124,-0.016873,0.003578,-0.018526,-0.0157785,0.0035855,0.0003805,0.004588,-0.0126935,-0.008298,0.001546,0.001664,0.0071095,-0.008502
1.Greek & Balkan:BGR_IA:I5769,0.126344,0.157407,0.007165,-0.051034,0.029852,-0.02259,0.00423,-0.001385,0.007772,0.032074,-0.001461,0.005695,-0.013974,-0.003028,-0.015065,-0.001458,0.01369,0.006968,0.006285,-0.014757,-0.006239,0.004699,-0.007888,0.003494,-0.008861
1.Greek & Balkan:HRV_IA:I3313,0.132035,0.151314,0.033941,-0.01615,0.024928,-0.005857,-0.006345,0.007154,0.003681,0.028976,0.001786,0.011 69,-0.02111,-0.001376,-0.005972,-0.008486,-0.006519,0.004941,0.005531,-0.014257,-0.001872,0.00507,0.001479,0.00253,0.003353
1.Greek & Balkan:HRV_EBA:I3499,0.119514,0.148267,0.015839,-0.01615,0.032621,-0.010877,-0.00329,-0.001385,0.006954,0.014943,0.004547,0.011989,-0.023042,-0.009909,-0.002307,-0.008751,0.001434,-0.003547,0.006536,0.003252,0.000499,-0.001855,0.003204,-0.001566,-0.017364
1.Greek & Balkan:HRV_MBA:I4331,0.12862,0.151314,0.028284,-0.007429,0.038776,-0.006972,-0.00705,-0.006,0.003681,0.028064,0.006171,0.010341,-0.017542,-0.003578,-0.0076,0.006497,0.008084,-0.003041,0.006159,-0.011631,-0.005865,-0.001113,-0.00037,0.003856,-0.001197
1.Greek & Balkan:HRV_MBA:I4332,0.120652,0.147252,0.034318,-0.012274,0.038469,0.002231,-0.00423,0.001154,0.009613,0.032074,-0.006008,0.01094,-0.012487,-0.014726,-0.005972,0.01074,0.02047,-0.00114,0.000754,-0.011005,-0.001248,0.008656,-0.00419,0.002048,-0.002395
1.Greek & Balkan:BGR_C:I0781,0.12862,0.174671,0.00792,-0.090763,0.043393,-0.036535,-0.000705,0.003923,0.035996,0.071072,0.001624,0.013 188,-0.022894,-0.003028,-0.036102,-0.011138,0.01343,0.0019,0.01169,-0.02001,-0.008735,0.000618,0.010723,-0.000361,-0.00946
1.Greek & Balkan:BGR_C:I2509,0.120652,0.174671,0.012822,-0.082365,0.047701,-0.039324,-0.00705,0.004154,0.038246,0.077086,-0.002273,0.008692,-0.021853,0.003441,-0.031759,-0.019093,-0.002608,0.001774,0.006034,-0.012756,-0.010981,0.007914,0.004314,-0.005543,-0.003592
1.Greek & Balkan:BGR_C:I2519,0.114961,0.175687,0.00264,-0.08398,0.045547,-0.042112,-0.00235,-0.000923,0.024543,0.069979,0.004547,0.017684,-0.02215,-0.00289,-0.021444,-0.011403,0.012126,-0.000887,0.00729,-0.009379,-0.014599,0.004204,-0.002095,-0.000602,-0.000599
1.Greek & Balkan:AUT_LBK_N:I5068,0.1161,0.18178,0.012068,-0.080104,0.066166,-0.039324,-0.00846,-0.010153,0.036405,0.086744,0.01153,0.007943,-0.014717,-0.002615,-0.037187,0.009546,0.03051,-0.0019,0.009804,-0.004627,0.002995,0.012118,0.007888,-0.000964,-0.002754
1.Greek & Balkan:AUT_LBK_N:I5069,0.122929,0.186857,0.011314,-0.087856,0.060934,-0.042391,-0.003995,-0.004615,0.040087,0.082917,0.008769,0.008542,-0.023042,0.007982,-0.036916,-0.01432,0.009518,-0.002914,0.018729,-0.012631,-0.008235,0.014096,-0.011092,0.000361,-0.006826
1.Greek & Balkan:AUT_LBK_N:I5070,0.124067,0.18178,0.012445,-0.091086,0.062473,-0.041555,-0.00423,-0.003231,0.046427,0.085469,0.008607,0.012589,-0.022448,-0.005643,-0.033659,-0.005038,0.036508,-0.00076,0.012444,0.000125,-0.010731,0.003833,-0.010599,-0.006748,-0.008502
1.Greek & Balkan:AUT_LBK_N:I5204,0.113823,0.179749,0.019233,-0.084949,0.065243,-0.037371,-0.000235,-0.001385,0.0452,0.083829,0.006658,0.007643,-0.019177,0.005092,-0.039359,-0.018695,-0.001565,0.000887,0.015335,-0.016258,-0.011854,0.012118,-0.003328,0.00012,-0.007664
1.Greek & Balkan:AUT_LBK_N:I5205,0.122929,0.185842,0.013576,-0.084303,0.065858,-0.049921,-0.00564,0.001615,0.045813,0.079819,0.000325,0.0076 43,-0.019623,0.005643,-0.039223,-0.017634,0.01682,0.001394,0.015209,-0.007128,-0.009733,0.010263,-0.012078,-0.005543,-0.002395
1.Greek & Balkan:AUT_LBK_N:I5206,0.124067,0.183811,0.017725,-0.092701,0.061242,-0.043228,0.00282,-0.008077,0.054608,0.088385,0.005521,0.017235,-0.023786,0.015827,-0.036916,-0.025457,0.003129,-0.00152,0.013198,-0.013757,-0.004866,0.007296,0.001972,-0.012652,-0.012933
1.Greek & Balkan:AUT_LBK_N:I5207,0.126344,0.187873,0.021873,-0.094316,0.071398,-0.044623,0.00141,-0.002077,0.040291,0.095127,0.013153,0.008692,-0.020069,-0.004404,-0.044788,-0.015513,0.006519,0.006968,0.014958,-0.012381,-0.001872,0.009398,-0.010723,-0.013375,-0.001557
1.Greek & Balkan:AUT_LBK_N:I5208,0.126344,0.183811,0.018102,-0.093024,0.060627,-0.044065,-0.000235,-0.002308,0.051131,0.086015,0.008931,0.013788,-0.020367,-0.001651,-0.037595,-0.016574,0.017341,0.006841,0.017472,-0.010505,-0.009608,0.009521,-0.008874,-0.013134,-0.004191
1.Greek & Balkan:Corded_Ware_DEU:I0049,0.130897,0.1046,0.058 831,0.0 85918,0.001231,0.032909,0.00423,0.001385,-0.035383,-0.040821,-0.004872,0.007793,-0.004608,-0.015414,0.025108,0.01432,-0.007171,0.000127,-0.004651,0.005878,0.002496,0.00136,0.013188,0.0212 08,-0.006107
1.Greek & Balkan:Corded_Ware_DEU:I0103,0.132035,0.113739,0.0 5506,0. 083011,0.001846,0.03514,0.000705,0.003923,-0.026997,-0.037905,-0.00341,-0.002398,-0.006244,-0.017753,0.024701,0.017634,-0.011213,0.007855,0.003897,0.009379,0.001747,0.005 07,0.003081,0.010965,0.009939
1.Greek & Balkan:Corded_Ware_DEU:I0104,0.132035,0.11577,0.04 978,0.0 78489,0.008309,0.031515,-0.003525,0.007154,-0.030065,-0.03262,-0.006171,-0.00015,-0.004311,-0.011147,0.025787,-0.004641,-0.022817,0.006461,0.005405,0,0.003494,0.00136,0.00 8134,0.020244,0.002634
1.Greek & Balkan:Corded_Ware_DEU:I0106,0.127482,0.100537,0.0 5242,0. 088825,0.008001,0.026495,-0.001645,0.002308,-0.006545,-0.033531,0.003735,-0.009142,-0.008176,-0.00867,0.032709,0.015115,-0.004824,0.007348,0.01169,-0.005753,-0.003369,-0.000124,0.008627,0.020244,-0.008861
1.Greek & Balkan:Corded_Ware_DEU:I1532,0.127482,0.12491,0.05 9962,0. 071706,0.012002,0.030678,0.003525,0,-0.018407,-0.028611,0.00065,0.002248,-0.004608,-0.00578,0.029858,0.005569,-0.019688,-0.00038,-0.001257,0.002126,0.012353,0.002349,0.001479,0.001 325,0.003952
1.Greek & Balkan:Corded_Ware_DEU:I1534,0.136588,0.099522,0.0 51666,0 .08721,0.011387,0.035419,0.00188,0.004384,-0.031292,-0.047017,0.01023,0.001798,-0.009366,-0.003028,0.015879,-0.00716,-0.032466,0.007348,-0.012444,-0.009004,-0.001373,0.007543,-0.017501,0.011568,-0.004311
1.Greek & Balkan:Corded_Ware_DEU:I1536,0.124067,0.099522,0.0 57699,0 .111436,-0.009232,0.037092,-0.002585,0.003692,-0.039678,-0.041003,0.004222,0.003147,-0.020367,-0.020368,0.027687,0.016706,-0.000652,-0.004814,-0.000126,0.028764,0.009234,0.008037,0.013311,0.057 237,-0.003473
1.Greek & Balkan:Corded_Ware_DEU:I1538,0.138864,0.108662,0.0 61471,0 .105299,-0.004001,0.048806,-0.011751,0.013615,-0.041518,-0.060502,0,0.001349,0.003717,-0.012524,0.013301,0.020684,-0.01682,0.010008,0.007668,0.018509,0.005366,-0.001607,0.016638,0.026389,0.00455
1.Greek & Balkan:Corded_Ware_DEU:I1539,0.122929,0.116786,0.0 61471,0 .090763,0.008925,0.028447,0.00047,0.005077,-0.019225,-0.026424,-0.00406,0.005545,-0.003865,0.002615,0.019815,0.005038,-0.019166,0.007095,-0.013827,0.005378,-0.020464,-0.003339,0.007641,0.008796,0.007185
1.Greek & Balkan:Corded_Ware_DEU:I1544,0.126344,0.126941,0.0 60339,0 .084949,0.002154,0.030678,0.019036,-0.015922,-0.031292,-0.047381,0.00341,0.013188,-0.010406,-0.003578,0.026058,-0.010872,-0.011865,0.00114,-0.016592,-0.008504,0.01959,-0.007048,0.006286,0.005302,-0.00467
2.Slav:RUS_Catacomb:MK3003,0.114961,0.081242,0.039 975,0.1 0336,-0.030159,0.0502,0.007755,-0.011538,-0.059721,-0.075628,0.008931,0.006444,-0.001487,-0.026286,0.03298,0.017502,0.008866,-0.005701,-0.00817,0.014257,-0.002496,0.001731,0.018117,0.030486,0.00479
2.Slav:RUS_Catacomb:RK4001,0.120652,0.093429,0.036 958,0.0 969,-0.028005,0.037092,-0.00047,-0.008769,-0.051949,-0.06925,-0.004872,0.002847,0.007433,-0.013625,0.042345,-0.010872,-0.022948,-0.005321,-0.004651,0.002251,0,-0.003215,0.013311,0.018798,-0.012933
2.Slav:RUS_Catacomb:RK4002,0.120652,0.09546,0.0433 69,0.11 402,-0.028928,0.052989,0.00282,0.006,-0.059925,-0.080913,0.005846,-0.000899,-0.001487,-0.019818,0.033251,0.013789,-0.011735,0.005194,0.004274,0.017633,0.001996,0.005 317,0.009244,0.015303,-0.002634
2.Slav:RUS_Catacomb:SA6003,0.1161,0.08632,0.048271 ,0.1136 97,-0.034468,0.05271,0.00094,-0.000923,-0.057267,-0.073259,-0.005196,0.008842,-0.003122,-0.020231,0.03488,-0.001989,-0.014733,0.005448,-0.005531,0.006253,-0.001123,0.00136,0.011709,0.023618,-0.012454
2.Slav:Baltic_LVA_BA:Kivutkalns153,0.137726,0.1238 95,0.11 0873,0.10336,0.041238,0.037929,0.012456,0.013153,-0.010022,-0.051391,0.005521,-0.019333,0.034192,0.046379,-0.013165,-0.011535,-0.00678,-0.005954,-0.007542,0.001126,0.010731,-0.002102,0.003081,-0.017954,-0.010059
2.Slav:Baltic_LVA_BA:Kivutkalns19,0.130897,0.12287 9,0.108 611,0.110467,0.052933,0.041276,0.015746,0.016384,-0.001636,-0.049204,-0.001137,-0.016785,0.037165,0.037296,-0.017236,0.005834,0.004172,0.007855,0.008045,0.009 505,0.000749,-0.00643,0.019473,-0.020123,0.006586
2.Slav:Baltic_LVA_BA:Kivutkalns194,0.118376,0.1340 5,0.092 017,0.10756,0.034776,0.038208,0.011281,0.010384,0. 022089,-0.038087,0.004222,-0.007493,0.024232,0.040186,-0.020901,0.009016,0.010561,-0.006841,-0.002137,0.027513,-0.017594,-0.005441,0.013804,-0.022413,0.011735
2.Slav:Baltic_LVA_BA:Kivutkalns207,0.129758,0.1249 1,0.110 119,0.114666,0.048932,0.047133,0.016686,0.019384,-0.003477,-0.058316,-0.00341,-0.025777,0.036571,0.052709,-0.014658,-0.009546,-0.00678,-0.003294,-0.006913,0.003252,-0.005366,-0.006554,0.008504,-0.025184,0.001796
2.Slav:Baltic_LVA_BA:Kivutkalns209,0.124067,0.1178 01,0.08 9,0.120157,0.046778,0.041555,0.012926,0.028383,-0.002045,-0.052302,-0.00747,-0.021431,0.037611,0.046104,-0.016422,0.004906,0.0103,-0.008235,-0.002137,0.00963,-0.004492,-0.011252,0.014666,-0.02181,0.002515
2.Slav:Baltic_LVA_BA:Kivutkalns215,0.134311,0.1330 34,0.09 956,0.108529,0.051702,0.04016,0.013396,0.021461,0. 003477,-0.050844,-0.005034,-0.019633,0.029732,0.039773,-0.012351,-0.003182,-0.015255,0.003294,-0.000754,0.012756,0.003494,-0.005317,-0.000616,-0.020003,0.007664
2.Slav:Baltic_LVA_BA:Kivutkalns222,0.130897,0.1238 95,0.10 1068,0.120157,0.057549,0.044344,0.020211,0.022384,-0.005522,-0.045923,0.000162,-0.024578,0.031516,0.040736,-0.013979,0.011403,0.011995,-0.007221,0.004022,0.008629,-0.009234,-0.000742,0.007272,-0.0194,0
2.Slav:Baltic_LVA_BA:Kivutkalns25,0.135449,0.12592 6,0.095 412,0.112405,0.056318,0.033746,0.013396,0.021691,-0.005522,-0.048839,0.001299,-0.016485,0.029732,0.043214,-0.021444,0.009016,0.01695,0.00152,-0.004274,5e-04,-0.000125,-0.005193,0.008011,-0.019521,-0.00012
2.Slav:Baltic_LVA_BA:Kivutkalns42,0.133173,0.13506 5,0.094 28,0.102391,0.045239,0.034861,0.014806,0.016153,-0.002454,-0.04483,0.002923,-0.018733,0.03553,0.043764,-0.021308,-0.00411,-0.005998,0.005828,0.008799,-0.002876,-0.000624,-0.00371,0.008874,-0.034945,0.002754
2.Slav:Ukrainian,0.1309273,0.1240867,0.0683506,0.0 575551, 0.0376867,0.0212936,0.0087651,0.0113072,-0.002891,-0.0210999,-0.0016327,-0.0076594,0.0153563,0.0216328,-0.0112354,-0.0010965,0.0046903,-0.0006985,0.0025989,0.0017002,-0.0044989,-0.003479,0.0067387,-0.0040578,0.0007217
3.MENA:IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N,0.0430252,0.0664158,-0.1550722,0.0047158,-0.122669,0.0235384,0.017109,-0.0011998,-0.082546,-0.0544158,-0.0028258,-0.0016186,0.0044896,-0.0062756,0.0316498,0.0561384,-0.0054242,0.0068664,0.0136508,-0.0334162,0.00856,-0.028836,-0.0110678,-0.039331,0.0222254
3.MENA:Levant_PPNB,0.072847,0.1639064,-0.0316026,-0.1361132,0.0332986,-0.0645352,-0.0134426,-0.0147684,0.0741604,0.03601,0.0188046,-0.0150764,0.035738,0.0025596,-0.0217696,0.006099,0.0098048,-0.0013176,-0.0047264,0.0188088,-0.001797,0.0071472,0.0008872,-0.0056874,-0.0037602
3.MENA:Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kaps,0.1013025,0.133034,-0.07071,-0.043605,-0.0498555,-0.0092035,0.008108,-0.011653,-0.066368,-0.01631,0.0030855,0.011015,-0.019846,0.005849,0.0042075,-0.0102095,-0.0001305,-0.003927,-0.001697,0.0032515,0.003494,-0.000247,-0.0036975,-0.0090975,-0.0030535
3.MENA:MAR_Taforalt,-0.189857,0.0814452,-0.0242866,-0.085595,0.027636,-0.0552202,-0.0705968,0.0184146,0.155397,0.003499,0.0209156,-0.0318316,0.0747168,-0.0513334,0.0711988,-0.0363032,0.0052676,-0.066106,-0.1424162,0.0389938,-0.0376836,-0.1255322,0.0730118,-0.0137606,0.0164534
3.MENA:GEO_CHG,0.091058,0.102568,-0.083344,-0.00323,-0.08617,0.020638,0.024911,-0.001846,-0.128236,-0.074717,-0.006333,0.023979,-0.054856,0.004404,0.026601,-0.03275,0.02386,-0.013429,-0.022249,0.034767,0.033815,-0.007048,0.006532,-0.025787,-0.002036

TonyC
09-18-2021, 12:50 AM
Slightly better result with a new model:

Target: LB_scaled
Distance: 2.4078% / 0.02407796
75.0 1.Greek&Balkan
20.2 2.Slav
4.8 3.MENA

https://i.ibb.co/J3JWxcS/g252.png

If anyone wants to try it:



1.Greek & Balkan:GRC_Helladic_MBA:Log02,0.118376,0.153345,0. 018479,-0.022933,0.028621,-0.01506,-0.00094,-0.003461,0.0045,0.022051,0.00065,0.007044,-0.016501,0.00055,-0.014522,-0.013126,-0.006519,0.002154,0.004022,-0.003377,-0.009733,-0.000371,0.009244,0.001807,0.000838
1.Greek & Balkan:GRC_Helladic_MBA:Log04,0.122929,0.14319,0.0 26776,-0.000969,0.016003,-0.005578,-0.007755,-0.003,-0.006749,0.004374,0.002923,0.015586,-0.010852,0.001376,-0.004343,-0.012729,-0.006258,-0.003801,0.010433,-0.013882,-0.013476,0.005564,0.006902,0.008917,-0.005029
1.Greek & Balkan:GRC_Minoan_EBA,0.114961,0.171624,-0.017348,-0.091409,0.02739,-0.035419,0.00423,-0.002538,0.02168,0.055946,0.010393,0.004946,-0.015163,0.003716,-0.033659,-0.026651,-0.001043,0.004054,0.007919,-0.01038,-0.009858,0.007914,-0.003821,-0.004699,0.001676
1.Greek & Balkan:Emporiote,0.118376,0.158423,-0.009051,-0.0670225,0.0252355,-0.027889,0.001645,-0.005077,0.0049085,0.042552,0.002842,0.01124,-0.016873,0.003578,-0.018526,-0.0157785,0.0035855,0.0003805,0.004588,-0.0126935,-0.008298,0.001546,0.001664,0.0071095,-0.008502
1.Greek & Balkan:BGR_IA:I5769,0.126344,0.157407,0.007165,-0.051034,0.029852,-0.02259,0.00423,-0.001385,0.007772,0.032074,-0.001461,0.005695,-0.013974,-0.003028,-0.015065,-0.001458,0.01369,0.006968,0.006285,-0.014757,-0.006239,0.004699,-0.007888,0.003494,-0.008861
1.Greek & Balkan:HRV_IA:I3313,0.132035,0.151314,0.033941,-0.01615,0.024928,-0.005857,-0.006345,0.007154,0.003681,0.028976,0.001786,0.011 69,-0.02111,-0.001376,-0.005972,-0.008486,-0.006519,0.004941,0.005531,-0.014257,-0.001872,0.00507,0.001479,0.00253,0.003353
1.Greek & Balkan:HRV_EBA:I3499,0.119514,0.148267,0.015839,-0.01615,0.032621,-0.010877,-0.00329,-0.001385,0.006954,0.014943,0.004547,0.011989,-0.023042,-0.009909,-0.002307,-0.008751,0.001434,-0.003547,0.006536,0.003252,0.000499,-0.001855,0.003204,-0.001566,-0.017364
1.Greek & Balkan:HRV_MBA:I4331,0.12862,0.151314,0.028284,-0.007429,0.038776,-0.006972,-0.00705,-0.006,0.003681,0.028064,0.006171,0.010341,-0.017542,-0.003578,-0.0076,0.006497,0.008084,-0.003041,0.006159,-0.011631,-0.005865,-0.001113,-0.00037,0.003856,-0.001197
1.Greek & Balkan:HRV_MBA:I4332,0.120652,0.147252,0.034318,-0.012274,0.038469,0.002231,-0.00423,0.001154,0.009613,0.032074,-0.006008,0.01094,-0.012487,-0.014726,-0.005972,0.01074,0.02047,-0.00114,0.000754,-0.011005,-0.001248,0.008656,-0.00419,0.002048,-0.002395
1.Greek & Balkan:BGR_C:I0781,0.12862,0.174671,0.00792,-0.090763,0.043393,-0.036535,-0.000705,0.003923,0.035996,0.071072,0.001624,0.013 188,-0.022894,-0.003028,-0.036102,-0.011138,0.01343,0.0019,0.01169,-0.02001,-0.008735,0.000618,0.010723,-0.000361,-0.00946
1.Greek & Balkan:BGR_C:I2509,0.120652,0.174671,0.012822,-0.082365,0.047701,-0.039324,-0.00705,0.004154,0.038246,0.077086,-0.002273,0.008692,-0.021853,0.003441,-0.031759,-0.019093,-0.002608,0.001774,0.006034,-0.012756,-0.010981,0.007914,0.004314,-0.005543,-0.003592
1.Greek & Balkan:BGR_C:I2519,0.114961,0.175687,0.00264,-0.08398,0.045547,-0.042112,-0.00235,-0.000923,0.024543,0.069979,0.004547,0.017684,-0.02215,-0.00289,-0.021444,-0.011403,0.012126,-0.000887,0.00729,-0.009379,-0.014599,0.004204,-0.002095,-0.000602,-0.000599
1.Greek & Balkan:AUT_LBK_N:I5068,0.1161,0.18178,0.012068,-0.080104,0.066166,-0.039324,-0.00846,-0.010153,0.036405,0.086744,0.01153,0.007943,-0.014717,-0.002615,-0.037187,0.009546,0.03051,-0.0019,0.009804,-0.004627,0.002995,0.012118,0.007888,-0.000964,-0.002754
1.Greek & Balkan:AUT_LBK_N:I5069,0.122929,0.186857,0.011314,-0.087856,0.060934,-0.042391,-0.003995,-0.004615,0.040087,0.082917,0.008769,0.008542,-0.023042,0.007982,-0.036916,-0.01432,0.009518,-0.002914,0.018729,-0.012631,-0.008235,0.014096,-0.011092,0.000361,-0.006826
1.Greek & Balkan:AUT_LBK_N:I5070,0.124067,0.18178,0.012445,-0.091086,0.062473,-0.041555,-0.00423,-0.003231,0.046427,0.085469,0.008607,0.012589,-0.022448,-0.005643,-0.033659,-0.005038,0.036508,-0.00076,0.012444,0.000125,-0.010731,0.003833,-0.010599,-0.006748,-0.008502
1.Greek & Balkan:AUT_LBK_N:I5204,0.113823,0.179749,0.019233,-0.084949,0.065243,-0.037371,-0.000235,-0.001385,0.0452,0.083829,0.006658,0.007643,-0.019177,0.005092,-0.039359,-0.018695,-0.001565,0.000887,0.015335,-0.016258,-0.011854,0.012118,-0.003328,0.00012,-0.007664
1.Greek & Balkan:AUT_LBK_N:I5205,0.122929,0.185842,0.013576,-0.084303,0.065858,-0.049921,-0.00564,0.001615,0.045813,0.079819,0.000325,0.0076 43,-0.019623,0.005643,-0.039223,-0.017634,0.01682,0.001394,0.015209,-0.007128,-0.009733,0.010263,-0.012078,-0.005543,-0.002395
1.Greek & Balkan:AUT_LBK_N:I5206,0.124067,0.183811,0.017725,-0.092701,0.061242,-0.043228,0.00282,-0.008077,0.054608,0.088385,0.005521,0.017235,-0.023786,0.015827,-0.036916,-0.025457,0.003129,-0.00152,0.013198,-0.013757,-0.004866,0.007296,0.001972,-0.012652,-0.012933
1.Greek & Balkan:AUT_LBK_N:I5207,0.126344,0.187873,0.021873,-0.094316,0.071398,-0.044623,0.00141,-0.002077,0.040291,0.095127,0.013153,0.008692,-0.020069,-0.004404,-0.044788,-0.015513,0.006519,0.006968,0.014958,-0.012381,-0.001872,0.009398,-0.010723,-0.013375,-0.001557
1.Greek & Balkan:AUT_LBK_N:I5208,0.126344,0.183811,0.018102,-0.093024,0.060627,-0.044065,-0.000235,-0.002308,0.051131,0.086015,0.008931,0.013788,-0.020367,-0.001651,-0.037595,-0.016574,0.017341,0.006841,0.017472,-0.010505,-0.009608,0.009521,-0.008874,-0.013134,-0.004191
1.Greek & Balkan:Corded_Ware_DEU:I0049,0.130897,0.1046,0.058 831,0.0 85918,0.001231,0.032909,0.00423,0.001385,-0.035383,-0.040821,-0.004872,0.007793,-0.004608,-0.015414,0.025108,0.01432,-0.007171,0.000127,-0.004651,0.005878,0.002496,0.00136,0.013188,0.0212 08,-0.006107
1.Greek & Balkan:Corded_Ware_DEU:I0103,0.132035,0.113739,0.0 5506,0. 083011,0.001846,0.03514,0.000705,0.003923,-0.026997,-0.037905,-0.00341,-0.002398,-0.006244,-0.017753,0.024701,0.017634,-0.011213,0.007855,0.003897,0.009379,0.001747,0.005 07,0.003081,0.010965,0.009939
1.Greek & Balkan:Corded_Ware_DEU:I0104,0.132035,0.11577,0.04 978,0.0 78489,0.008309,0.031515,-0.003525,0.007154,-0.030065,-0.03262,-0.006171,-0.00015,-0.004311,-0.011147,0.025787,-0.004641,-0.022817,0.006461,0.005405,0,0.003494,0.00136,0.00 8134,0.020244,0.002634
1.Greek & Balkan:Corded_Ware_DEU:I0106,0.127482,0.100537,0.0 5242,0. 088825,0.008001,0.026495,-0.001645,0.002308,-0.006545,-0.033531,0.003735,-0.009142,-0.008176,-0.00867,0.032709,0.015115,-0.004824,0.007348,0.01169,-0.005753,-0.003369,-0.000124,0.008627,0.020244,-0.008861
1.Greek & Balkan:Corded_Ware_DEU:I1532,0.127482,0.12491,0.05 9962,0. 071706,0.012002,0.030678,0.003525,0,-0.018407,-0.028611,0.00065,0.002248,-0.004608,-0.00578,0.029858,0.005569,-0.019688,-0.00038,-0.001257,0.002126,0.012353,0.002349,0.001479,0.001 325,0.003952
1.Greek & Balkan:Corded_Ware_DEU:I1534,0.136588,0.099522,0.0 51666,0 .08721,0.011387,0.035419,0.00188,0.004384,-0.031292,-0.047017,0.01023,0.001798,-0.009366,-0.003028,0.015879,-0.00716,-0.032466,0.007348,-0.012444,-0.009004,-0.001373,0.007543,-0.017501,0.011568,-0.004311
1.Greek & Balkan:Corded_Ware_DEU:I1536,0.124067,0.099522,0.0 57699,0 .111436,-0.009232,0.037092,-0.002585,0.003692,-0.039678,-0.041003,0.004222,0.003147,-0.020367,-0.020368,0.027687,0.016706,-0.000652,-0.004814,-0.000126,0.028764,0.009234,0.008037,0.013311,0.057 237,-0.003473
1.Greek & Balkan:Corded_Ware_DEU:I1538,0.138864,0.108662,0.0 61471,0 .105299,-0.004001,0.048806,-0.011751,0.013615,-0.041518,-0.060502,0,0.001349,0.003717,-0.012524,0.013301,0.020684,-0.01682,0.010008,0.007668,0.018509,0.005366,-0.001607,0.016638,0.026389,0.00455
1.Greek & Balkan:Corded_Ware_DEU:I1539,0.122929,0.116786,0.0 61471,0 .090763,0.008925,0.028447,0.00047,0.005077,-0.019225,-0.026424,-0.00406,0.005545,-0.003865,0.002615,0.019815,0.005038,-0.019166,0.007095,-0.013827,0.005378,-0.020464,-0.003339,0.007641,0.008796,0.007185
1.Greek & Balkan:Corded_Ware_DEU:I1544,0.126344,0.126941,0.0 60339,0 .084949,0.002154,0.030678,0.019036,-0.015922,-0.031292,-0.047381,0.00341,0.013188,-0.010406,-0.003578,0.026058,-0.010872,-0.011865,0.00114,-0.016592,-0.008504,0.01959,-0.007048,0.006286,0.005302,-0.00467
2.Slav:RUS_Catacomb:MK3003,0.114961,0.081242,0.039 975,0.1 0336,-0.030159,0.0502,0.007755,-0.011538,-0.059721,-0.075628,0.008931,0.006444,-0.001487,-0.026286,0.03298,0.017502,0.008866,-0.005701,-0.00817,0.014257,-0.002496,0.001731,0.018117,0.030486,0.00479
2.Slav:RUS_Catacomb:RK4001,0.120652,0.093429,0.036 958,0.0 969,-0.028005,0.037092,-0.00047,-0.008769,-0.051949,-0.06925,-0.004872,0.002847,0.007433,-0.013625,0.042345,-0.010872,-0.022948,-0.005321,-0.004651,0.002251,0,-0.003215,0.013311,0.018798,-0.012933
2.Slav:RUS_Catacomb:RK4002,0.120652,0.09546,0.0433 69,0.11 402,-0.028928,0.052989,0.00282,0.006,-0.059925,-0.080913,0.005846,-0.000899,-0.001487,-0.019818,0.033251,0.013789,-0.011735,0.005194,0.004274,0.017633,0.001996,0.005 317,0.009244,0.015303,-0.002634
2.Slav:RUS_Catacomb:SA6003,0.1161,0.08632,0.048271 ,0.1136 97,-0.034468,0.05271,0.00094,-0.000923,-0.057267,-0.073259,-0.005196,0.008842,-0.003122,-0.020231,0.03488,-0.001989,-0.014733,0.005448,-0.005531,0.006253,-0.001123,0.00136,0.011709,0.023618,-0.012454
2.Slav:Baltic_LVA_BA:Kivutkalns153,0.137726,0.1238 95,0.11 0873,0.10336,0.041238,0.037929,0.012456,0.013153,-0.010022,-0.051391,0.005521,-0.019333,0.034192,0.046379,-0.013165,-0.011535,-0.00678,-0.005954,-0.007542,0.001126,0.010731,-0.002102,0.003081,-0.017954,-0.010059
2.Slav:Baltic_LVA_BA:Kivutkalns19,0.130897,0.12287 9,0.108 611,0.110467,0.052933,0.041276,0.015746,0.016384,-0.001636,-0.049204,-0.001137,-0.016785,0.037165,0.037296,-0.017236,0.005834,0.004172,0.007855,0.008045,0.009 505,0.000749,-0.00643,0.019473,-0.020123,0.006586
2.Slav:Baltic_LVA_BA:Kivutkalns194,0.118376,0.1340 5,0.092 017,0.10756,0.034776,0.038208,0.011281,0.010384,0. 022089,-0.038087,0.004222,-0.007493,0.024232,0.040186,-0.020901,0.009016,0.010561,-0.006841,-0.002137,0.027513,-0.017594,-0.005441,0.013804,-0.022413,0.011735
2.Slav:Baltic_LVA_BA:Kivutkalns207,0.129758,0.1249 1,0.110 119,0.114666,0.048932,0.047133,0.016686,0.019384,-0.003477,-0.058316,-0.00341,-0.025777,0.036571,0.052709,-0.014658,-0.009546,-0.00678,-0.003294,-0.006913,0.003252,-0.005366,-0.006554,0.008504,-0.025184,0.001796
2.Slav:Baltic_LVA_BA:Kivutkalns209,0.124067,0.1178 01,0.08 9,0.120157,0.046778,0.041555,0.012926,0.028383,-0.002045,-0.052302,-0.00747,-0.021431,0.037611,0.046104,-0.016422,0.004906,0.0103,-0.008235,-0.002137,0.00963,-0.004492,-0.011252,0.014666,-0.02181,0.002515
2.Slav:Baltic_LVA_BA:Kivutkalns215,0.134311,0.1330 34,0.09 956,0.108529,0.051702,0.04016,0.013396,0.021461,0. 003477,-0.050844,-0.005034,-0.019633,0.029732,0.039773,-0.012351,-0.003182,-0.015255,0.003294,-0.000754,0.012756,0.003494,-0.005317,-0.000616,-0.020003,0.007664
2.Slav:Baltic_LVA_BA:Kivutkalns222,0.130897,0.1238 95,0.10 1068,0.120157,0.057549,0.044344,0.020211,0.022384,-0.005522,-0.045923,0.000162,-0.024578,0.031516,0.040736,-0.013979,0.011403,0.011995,-0.007221,0.004022,0.008629,-0.009234,-0.000742,0.007272,-0.0194,0
2.Slav:Baltic_LVA_BA:Kivutkalns25,0.135449,0.12592 6,0.095 412,0.112405,0.056318,0.033746,0.013396,0.021691,-0.005522,-0.048839,0.001299,-0.016485,0.029732,0.043214,-0.021444,0.009016,0.01695,0.00152,-0.004274,5e-04,-0.000125,-0.005193,0.008011,-0.019521,-0.00012
2.Slav:Baltic_LVA_BA:Kivutkalns42,0.133173,0.13506 5,0.094 28,0.102391,0.045239,0.034861,0.014806,0.016153,-0.002454,-0.04483,0.002923,-0.018733,0.03553,0.043764,-0.021308,-0.00411,-0.005998,0.005828,0.008799,-0.002876,-0.000624,-0.00371,0.008874,-0.034945,0.002754
2.Slav:Ukrainian,0.1309273,0.1240867,0.0683506,0.0 575551, 0.0376867,0.0212936,0.0087651,0.0113072,-0.002891,-0.0210999,-0.0016327,-0.0076594,0.0153563,0.0216328,-0.0112354,-0.0010965,0.0046903,-0.0006985,0.0025989,0.0017002,-0.0044989,-0.003479,0.0067387,-0.0040578,0.0007217
3.MENA:IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N,0.0430252,0.0664158,-0.1550722,0.0047158,-0.122669,0.0235384,0.017109,-0.0011998,-0.082546,-0.0544158,-0.0028258,-0.0016186,0.0044896,-0.0062756,0.0316498,0.0561384,-0.0054242,0.0068664,0.0136508,-0.0334162,0.00856,-0.028836,-0.0110678,-0.039331,0.0222254
3.MENA:Levant_PPNB,0.072847,0.1639064,-0.0316026,-0.1361132,0.0332986,-0.0645352,-0.0134426,-0.0147684,0.0741604,0.03601,0.0188046,-0.0150764,0.035738,0.0025596,-0.0217696,0.006099,0.0098048,-0.0013176,-0.0047264,0.0188088,-0.001797,0.0071472,0.0008872,-0.0056874,-0.0037602
3.MENA:Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kaps,0.1013025,0.133034,-0.07071,-0.043605,-0.0498555,-0.0092035,0.008108,-0.011653,-0.066368,-0.01631,0.0030855,0.011015,-0.019846,0.005849,0.0042075,-0.0102095,-0.0001305,-0.003927,-0.001697,0.0032515,0.003494,-0.000247,-0.0036975,-0.0090975,-0.0030535
3.MENA:MAR_Taforalt,-0.189857,0.0814452,-0.0242866,-0.085595,0.027636,-0.0552202,-0.0705968,0.0184146,0.155397,0.003499,0.0209156,-0.0318316,0.0747168,-0.0513334,0.0711988,-0.0363032,0.0052676,-0.066106,-0.1424162,0.0389938,-0.0376836,-0.1255322,0.0730118,-0.0137606,0.0164534
3.MENA:GEO_CHG,0.091058,0.102568,-0.083344,-0.00323,-0.08617,0.020638,0.024911,-0.001846,-0.128236,-0.074717,-0.006333,0.023979,-0.054856,0.004404,0.026601,-0.03275,0.02386,-0.013429,-0.022249,0.034767,0.033815,-0.007048,0.006532,-0.025787,-0.002036




Peloponnesian Greek
Target: Anthony_C_scaled
Distance: 1.4719% / 0.01471915
86.01 Greek&Balkan
9.82 Slav
4.23 MENA

Ylang-Ylang
09-18-2021, 12:51 AM
I'm not sure it's as simple as that. I still don't really see evidence from my readings of post classical era Greece, Hellenistic Greece and the Roman era where there was an influx of folks from the Middle East. Give me evidence. If anything there was an exodus from the Mainland to Anatolia, Middle East, North Africa, etc. not the opposite.

The prove is already shown in Moesia, Serbia and the Roman Capital: Rome.

A Greek paper will follow. I am not surprised. This Cypriot-like admix is already there with the modern Peloponnesians.
Most Greeks show a little Levant. Even from the North.
Even some Serbian individuals can show some sign of Imperial Roman. Imperial Roman always come together with some Levant. Italians have this, especially these from Lazio which makes sense.

I don’t get this disbelieve. Having some Middle East component is not something bad as previously felt and believed..
This is part of our history. It shows in many historical and cultural ways. Oriental periods/influences in ancient Greece…

Archetype0ne
09-18-2021, 12:56 AM
There's no evidence that EBA/MBA profiles like HRV and Logkas even existed at any time in ancient southern Greece, let alone that they survived until the Classical period and beyond. By all accounts, the proto-Greeks (if we accept that the Logkas girls were that) mixed very quickly with the existing Minoan-like substratum. I don't know about rural, isolated communities in the ancient times but the isolated communities we know from modern times (Maniots and Tsakonians) look to have a very southern, almost islander-like profile.

I think we generally agree. And the model I presented corroborates most of your points. In fact I was mainly referring to the paleobalkanic profile of Northern Greece and Albania. Where we see a northern shift as you say, since EBA/MBA... Much earlier than the Slavic introgression in the region.

My personal opinion as it stands is that there was two profiles in the Balkans at the time, one close to HRV/BGR IA, one close to modern Cypriots/ Marathon like (more southern profile). With the later around the Greek Islands and Southern Greece, with the former North Greece and beyond.
Meaning to get a Marathon like sample close to todays Northern Greeks, what you would initially need is a chunk of paleo Balkan during the period, with a later input of CZE Early Slavic profiles.

But when the BAMs are public, we can test the hypothesis. My guess is it will beat the Danubian limes model.

dosas
09-18-2021, 01:33 AM
.


You are correct. The capital of the Seleucids, Antioch, was, in fact, in ancient Syria. The people squirming at the Hellenistic and Imperial Roman profiles is due to their own personal biases and predispositions.

Modern Peloponnesians have significant Albanian (Albanophone) and Slavic (Slavophone) admixture and that's what pulls them considerably North compared to those aforementioned samples.

TonyC
09-18-2021, 01:40 AM
It would be interesting to see the Y-DNA results of the mountainous shepherd communities from Northern Arcadia that you mention.

Well I've discovered that my paternal line; G-PF3148 originally came from a mountainous village in Arcadia called Alonestina. So far traced that line back to the late 17th century. Sheepherders and participants in various revolts against Ottomans.

dosas
09-18-2021, 04:04 AM
Distance difference: ( AC - BC ) ↓
A: Hellenistic_Marathon_SIM
B: Greek_Peloponnese
C: ↴
0.05432468 Montenegrin
0.05427825 Macedonian
0.05420885 Albanian
0.05414627 Serbian
0.05403753 Romanian
0.05364905 Slovenian
0.05330212 Croatian
0.05327747 Bosnian
0.05315369 Italian_Northeast
0.05309197 Hungarian
0.05302945 Sorb_Niederlausitz
0.05289881 Bulgarian
0.05276490 Austrian
0.05259509 Slovakian
0.05244516 Czech
0.05242342 German_East
0.05230525 Polish
0.05203976 Moldovan
0.05177197 Lithuanian_PA
0.05172060 Ukrainian
0.05165208 Lithuanian_VZ
0.05160714 Belarusian
0.05154896 Cossack_Ukrainian
0.05149934 German
0.05147421 Lithuanian_VA


This differentiation of admixture is historically accurate and shows what pulls the "mainland" Greeks away from the Hellenistic and Imperial Roman Greek samples, prior to the medieval invasions, and towards the direction of Eastern Europe.

There really is nothing to more to say about this, Michalis' post encapsulated the reality, all the Greek groups (minus the Anatolians) need a Hellenistic + Balkan IA + Medieval Slavic source to be modeled.

This thread has speculated, in the past, why mainland Greek have a WANA pull compared to other Balkan groups, it looks like some of us (not touting my own horn, there were several people who argued this) were correct, "mainland" Greeks were pulled away from their Hellenistic ancestors, who originally had this WANA admixture, by the medieval incursions, in various degrees (mostly, I am sure there are other migratory events to be discovered albeit of not such magnitude).

Chatzianastasoglou
09-18-2021, 05:59 AM
Target: ChristosA_scaled
Distance: 1.2418% / 0.01241765
77.0 1.Greek&Balkan
19.4 2.Slav
3.6 3.MENA

Target: Christos_mother_scaled
Distance: 1.7150% / 0.01715032
74.4 1.Greek&Balkan
19.4 2.Slav
6.2 3.MENA

Target: Christos_father_scaled
Distance: 2.2912% / 0.02291217
56.2 1.Greek&Balkan
24.2 2.Slav
19.6 3.MENA

lockdownboredom
09-18-2021, 06:00 AM
Slightly better result with a new model:

Target: LB_scaled
Distance: 2.4078% / 0.02407796
75.0 1.Greek&Balkan
20.2 2.Slav
4.8 3.MENA

[img]https://i.ibb.co/J3JWxcS/g252.png[img]

If anyone wants to try it:


As tight as I can get her.

Target: LB_scaled
Distance: 2.0895% / 0.02089529
73.2 1.Greek&Balkan
19.8 2.Slav
7.0 3.MENA

https://i.ibb.co/nfSgD6X/g253.png


1.Greek&Balkan:Emporiote,0.118376,0.158423,-0.009051,-0.0670225,0.0252355,-0.027889,0.001645,-0.005077,0.0049085,0.042552,0.002842,0.01124,-0.016873,0.003578,-0.018526,-0.0157785,0.0035855,0.0003805,0.004588,-0.0126935,-0.008298,0.001546,0.001664,0.0071095,-0.008502
1.Greek & Balkan:GRC_Helladic_MBA:Log02,0.118376,0.153345,0. 018479,-0.022933,0.028621,-0.01506,-0.00094,-0.003461,0.0045,0.022051,0.00065,0.007044,-0.016501,0.00055,-0.014522,-0.013126,-0.006519,0.002154,0.004022,-0.003377,-0.009733,-0.000371,0.009244,0.001807,0.000838
1.Greek & Balkan:GRC_Helladic_MBA:Log04,0.122929,0.14319,0.0 26776,-0.000969,0.016003,-0.005578,-0.007755,-0.003,-0.006749,0.004374,0.002923,0.015586,-0.010852,0.001376,-0.004343,-0.012729,-0.006258,-0.003801,0.010433,-0.013882,-0.013476,0.005564,0.006902,0.008917,-0.005029
1.Greek & Balkan:GRC_Minoan_EBA,0.114961,0.171624,-0.017348,-0.091409,0.02739,-0.035419,0.00423,-0.002538,0.02168,0.055946,0.010393,0.004946,-0.015163,0.003716,-0.033659,-0.026651,-0.001043,0.004054,0.007919,-0.01038,-0.009858,0.007914,-0.003821,-0.004699,0.001676
1.Greek & Balkan:BGR_IA:I5769,0.126344,0.157407,0.007165,-0.051034,0.029852,-0.02259,0.00423,-0.001385,0.007772,0.032074,-0.001461,0.005695,-0.013974,-0.003028,-0.015065,-0.001458,0.01369,0.006968,0.006285,-0.014757,-0.006239,0.004699,-0.007888,0.003494,-0.008861
1.Greek & Balkan:HRV_IA:I3313,0.132035,0.151314,0.033941,-0.01615,0.024928,-0.005857,-0.006345,0.007154,0.003681,0.028976,0.001786,0.011 69,-0.02111,-0.001376,-0.005972,-0.008486,-0.006519,0.004941,0.005531,-0.014257,-0.001872,0.00507,0.001479,0.00253,0.003353
1.Greek & Balkan:HRV_EBA:I3499,0.119514,0.148267,0.015839,-0.01615,0.032621,-0.010877,-0.00329,-0.001385,0.006954,0.014943,0.004547,0.011989,-0.023042,-0.009909,-0.002307,-0.008751,0.001434,-0.003547,0.006536,0.003252,0.000499,-0.001855,0.003204,-0.001566,-0.017364
1.Greek & Balkan:HRV_MBA:I4331,0.12862,0.151314,0.028284,-0.007429,0.038776,-0.006972,-0.00705,-0.006,0.003681,0.028064,0.006171,0.010341,-0.017542,-0.003578,-0.0076,0.006497,0.008084,-0.003041,0.006159,-0.011631,-0.005865,-0.001113,-0.00037,0.003856,-0.001197
1.Greek & Balkan:HRV_MBA:I4332,0.120652,0.147252,0.034318,-0.012274,0.038469,0.002231,-0.00423,0.001154,0.009613,0.032074,-0.006008,0.01094,-0.012487,-0.014726,-0.005972,0.01074,0.02047,-0.00114,0.000754,-0.011005,-0.001248,0.008656,-0.00419,0.002048,-0.002395
1.Greek & Balkan:BGR_C:I0781,0.12862,0.174671,0.00792,-0.090763,0.043393,-0.036535,-0.000705,0.003923,0.035996,0.071072,0.001624,0.013 188,-0.022894,-0.003028,-0.036102,-0.011138,0.01343,0.0019,0.01169,-0.02001,-0.008735,0.000618,0.010723,-0.000361,-0.00946
1.Greek & Balkan:BGR_C:I2509,0.120652,0.174671,0.012822,-0.082365,0.047701,-0.039324,-0.00705,0.004154,0.038246,0.077086,-0.002273,0.008692,-0.021853,0.003441,-0.031759,-0.019093,-0.002608,0.001774,0.006034,-0.012756,-0.010981,0.007914,0.004314,-0.005543,-0.003592
1.Greek & Balkan:BGR_C:I2519,0.114961,0.175687,0.00264,-0.08398,0.045547,-0.042112,-0.00235,-0.000923,0.024543,0.069979,0.004547,0.017684,-0.02215,-0.00289,-0.021444,-0.011403,0.012126,-0.000887,0.00729,-0.009379,-0.014599,0.004204,-0.002095,-0.000602,-0.000599
1.Greek & Balkan:HUN_MA_Szolad_o1:SZ19,0.120652,0.167562,0.0 12822,-0.045866,0.035391,-0.022869,-0.00047,-0.000923,0.001023,0.045559,0.007145,0.01079,-0.013528,0.007844,-0.014115,-0.018297,-0.003129,0.003421,0.008547,-0.016258,-0.010232,0.003462,0.005793,0.007832,0.001317
1.Greek & Balkan:AUT_LBK_N:I5068,0.1161,0.18178,0.012068,-0.080104,0.066166,-0.039324,-0.00846,-0.010153,0.036405,0.086744,0.01153,0.007943,-0.014717,-0.002615,-0.037187,0.009546,0.03051,-0.0019,0.009804,-0.004627,0.002995,0.012118,0.007888,-0.000964,-0.002754
1.Greek & Balkan:AUT_LBK_N:I5069,0.122929,0.186857,0.011314,-0.087856,0.060934,-0.042391,-0.003995,-0.004615,0.040087,0.082917,0.008769,0.008542,-0.023042,0.007982,-0.036916,-0.01432,0.009518,-0.002914,0.018729,-0.012631,-0.008235,0.014096,-0.011092,0.000361,-0.006826
1.Greek & Balkan:AUT_LBK_N:I5070,0.124067,0.18178,0.012445,-0.091086,0.062473,-0.041555,-0.00423,-0.003231,0.046427,0.085469,0.008607,0.012589,-0.022448,-0.005643,-0.033659,-0.005038,0.036508,-0.00076,0.012444,0.000125,-0.010731,0.003833,-0.010599,-0.006748,-0.008502
1.Greek & Balkan:AUT_LBK_N:I5204,0.113823,0.179749,0.019233,-0.084949,0.065243,-0.037371,-0.000235,-0.001385,0.0452,0.083829,0.006658,0.007643,-0.019177,0.005092,-0.039359,-0.018695,-0.001565,0.000887,0.015335,-0.016258,-0.011854,0.012118,-0.003328,0.00012,-0.007664
1.Greek & Balkan:AUT_LBK_N:I5205,0.122929,0.185842,0.013576,-0.084303,0.065858,-0.049921,-0.00564,0.001615,0.045813,0.079819,0.000325,0.0076 43,-0.019623,0.005643,-0.039223,-0.017634,0.01682,0.001394,0.015209,-0.007128,-0.009733,0.010263,-0.012078,-0.005543,-0.002395
1.Greek & Balkan:AUT_LBK_N:I5206,0.124067,0.183811,0.017725,-0.092701,0.061242,-0.043228,0.00282,-0.008077,0.054608,0.088385,0.005521,0.017235,-0.023786,0.015827,-0.036916,-0.025457,0.003129,-0.00152,0.013198,-0.013757,-0.004866,0.007296,0.001972,-0.012652,-0.012933
1.Greek & Balkan:AUT_LBK_N:I5207,0.126344,0.187873,0.021873,-0.094316,0.071398,-0.044623,0.00141,-0.002077,0.040291,0.095127,0.013153,0.008692,-0.020069,-0.004404,-0.044788,-0.015513,0.006519,0.006968,0.014958,-0.012381,-0.001872,0.009398,-0.010723,-0.013375,-0.001557
1.Greek & Balkan:AUT_LBK_N:I5208,0.126344,0.183811,0.018102,-0.093024,0.060627,-0.044065,-0.000235,-0.002308,0.051131,0.086015,0.008931,0.013788,-0.020367,-0.001651,-0.037595,-0.016574,0.017341,0.006841,0.017472,-0.010505,-0.009608,0.009521,-0.008874,-0.013134,-0.004191
1.Greek & Balkan:Corded_Ware_DEU:I0049,0.130897,0.1046,0.058 831,0.0 85918,0.001231,0.032909,0.00423,0.001385,-0.035383,-0.040821,-0.004872,0.007793,-0.004608,-0.015414,0.025108,0.01432,-0.007171,0.000127,-0.004651,0.005878,0.002496,0.00136,0.013188,0.0212 08,-0.006107
1.Greek & Balkan:Corded_Ware_DEU:I0103,0.132035,0.113739,0.0 5506,0. 083011,0.001846,0.03514,0.000705,0.003923,-0.026997,-0.037905,-0.00341,-0.002398,-0.006244,-0.017753,0.024701,0.017634,-0.011213,0.007855,0.003897,0.009379,0.001747,0.005 07,0.003081,0.010965,0.009939
1.Greek & Balkan:Corded_Ware_DEU:I0104,0.132035,0.11577,0.04 978,0.0 78489,0.008309,0.031515,-0.003525,0.007154,-0.030065,-0.03262,-0.006171,-0.00015,-0.004311,-0.011147,0.025787,-0.004641,-0.022817,0.006461,0.005405,0,0.003494,0.00136,0.00 8134,0.020244,0.002634
1.Greek & Balkan:Corded_Ware_DEU:I0106,0.127482,0.100537,0.0 5242,0. 088825,0.008001,0.026495,-0.001645,0.002308,-0.006545,-0.033531,0.003735,-0.009142,-0.008176,-0.00867,0.032709,0.015115,-0.004824,0.007348,0.01169,-0.005753,-0.003369,-0.000124,0.008627,0.020244,-0.008861
1.Greek & Balkan:Corded_Ware_DEU:I1532,0.127482,0.12491,0.05 9962,0. 071706,0.012002,0.030678,0.003525,0,-0.018407,-0.028611,0.00065,0.002248,-0.004608,-0.00578,0.029858,0.005569,-0.019688,-0.00038,-0.001257,0.002126,0.012353,0.002349,0.001479,0.001 325,0.003952
1.Greek & Balkan:Corded_Ware_DEU:I1534,0.136588,0.099522,0.0 51666,0 .08721,0.011387,0.035419,0.00188,0.004384,-0.031292,-0.047017,0.01023,0.001798,-0.009366,-0.003028,0.015879,-0.00716,-0.032466,0.007348,-0.012444,-0.009004,-0.001373,0.007543,-0.017501,0.011568,-0.004311
1.Greek & Balkan:Corded_Ware_DEU:I1536,0.124067,0.099522,0.0 57699,0 .111436,-0.009232,0.037092,-0.002585,0.003692,-0.039678,-0.041003,0.004222,0.003147,-0.020367,-0.020368,0.027687,0.016706,-0.000652,-0.004814,-0.000126,0.028764,0.009234,0.008037,0.013311,0.057 237,-0.003473
1.Greek & Balkan:Corded_Ware_DEU:I1538,0.138864,0.108662,0.0 61471,0 .105299,-0.004001,0.048806,-0.011751,0.013615,-0.041518,-0.060502,0,0.001349,0.003717,-0.012524,0.013301,0.020684,-0.01682,0.010008,0.007668,0.018509,0.005366,-0.001607,0.016638,0.026389,0.00455
1.Greek & Balkan:Corded_Ware_DEU:I1539,0.122929,0.116786,0.0 61471,0 .090763,0.008925,0.028447,0.00047,0.005077,-0.019225,-0.026424,-0.00406,0.005545,-0.003865,0.002615,0.019815,0.005038,-0.019166,0.007095,-0.013827,0.005378,-0.020464,-0.003339,0.007641,0.008796,0.007185
1.Greek & Balkan:Corded_Ware_DEU:I1544,0.126344,0.126941,0.0 60339,0 .084949,0.002154,0.030678,0.019036,-0.015922,-0.031292,-0.047381,0.00341,0.013188,-0.010406,-0.003578,0.026058,-0.010872,-0.011865,0.00114,-0.016592,-0.008504,0.01959,-0.007048,0.006286,0.005302,-0.00467
2.Slav:RUS_Catacomb:MK3003,0.114961,0.081242,0.039 975,0.1 0336,-0.030159,0.0502,0.007755,-0.011538,-0.059721,-0.075628,0.008931,0.006444,-0.001487,-0.026286,0.03298,0.017502,0.008866,-0.005701,-0.00817,0.014257,-0.002496,0.001731,0.018117,0.030486,0.00479
2.Slav:RUS_Catacomb:RK4001,0.120652,0.093429,0.036 958,0.0 969,-0.028005,0.037092,-0.00047,-0.008769,-0.051949,-0.06925,-0.004872,0.002847,0.007433,-0.013625,0.042345,-0.010872,-0.022948,-0.005321,-0.004651,0.002251,0,-0.003215,0.013311,0.018798,-0.012933
2.Slav:RUS_Catacomb:RK4002,0.120652,0.09546,0.0433 69,0.11 402,-0.028928,0.052989,0.00282,0.006,-0.059925,-0.080913,0.005846,-0.000899,-0.001487,-0.019818,0.033251,0.013789,-0.011735,0.005194,0.004274,0.017633,0.001996,0.005 317,0.009244,0.015303,-0.002634
2.Slav:RUS_Catacomb:SA6003,0.1161,0.08632,0.048271 ,0.1136 97,-0.034468,0.05271,0.00094,-0.000923,-0.057267,-0.073259,-0.005196,0.008842,-0.003122,-0.020231,0.03488,-0.001989,-0.014733,0.005448,-0.005531,0.006253,-0.001123,0.00136,0.011709,0.023618,-0.012454
2.Slav:Baltic_LVA_BA:Kivutkalns153,0.137726,0.1238 95,0.11 0873,0.10336,0.041238,0.037929,0.012456,0.013153,-0.010022,-0.051391,0.005521,-0.019333,0.034192,0.046379,-0.013165,-0.011535,-0.00678,-0.005954,-0.007542,0.001126,0.010731,-0.002102,0.003081,-0.017954,-0.010059
2.Slav:Baltic_LVA_BA:Kivutkalns19,0.130897,0.12287 9,0.108 611,0.110467,0.052933,0.041276,0.015746,0.016384,-0.001636,-0.049204,-0.001137,-0.016785,0.037165,0.037296,-0.017236,0.005834,0.004172,0.007855,0.008045,0.009 505,0.000749,-0.00643,0.019473,-0.020123,0.006586
2.Slav:Baltic_LVA_BA:Kivutkalns194,0.118376,0.1340 5,0.092 017,0.10756,0.034776,0.038208,0.011281,0.010384,0. 022089,-0.038087,0.004222,-0.007493,0.024232,0.040186,-0.020901,0.009016,0.010561,-0.006841,-0.002137,0.027513,-0.017594,-0.005441,0.013804,-0.022413,0.011735
2.Slav:Baltic_LVA_BA:Kivutkalns207,0.129758,0.1249 1,0.110 119,0.114666,0.048932,0.047133,0.016686,0.019384,-0.003477,-0.058316,-0.00341,-0.025777,0.036571,0.052709,-0.014658,-0.009546,-0.00678,-0.003294,-0.006913,0.003252,-0.005366,-0.006554,0.008504,-0.025184,0.001796
2.Slav:Baltic_LVA_BA:Kivutkalns209,0.124067,0.1178 01,0.08 9,0.120157,0.046778,0.041555,0.012926,0.028383,-0.002045,-0.052302,-0.00747,-0.021431,0.037611,0.046104,-0.016422,0.004906,0.0103,-0.008235,-0.002137,0.00963,-0.004492,-0.011252,0.014666,-0.02181,0.002515
2.Slav:Baltic_LVA_BA:Kivutkalns215,0.134311,0.1330 34,0.09 956,0.108529,0.051702,0.04016,0.013396,0.021461,0. 003477,-0.050844,-0.005034,-0.019633,0.029732,0.039773,-0.012351,-0.003182,-0.015255,0.003294,-0.000754,0.012756,0.003494,-0.005317,-0.000616,-0.020003,0.007664
2.Slav:Baltic_LVA_BA:Kivutkalns222,0.130897,0.1238 95,0.10 1068,0.120157,0.057549,0.044344,0.020211,0.022384,-0.005522,-0.045923,0.000162,-0.024578,0.031516,0.040736,-0.013979,0.011403,0.011995,-0.007221,0.004022,0.008629,-0.009234,-0.000742,0.007272,-0.0194,0
2.Slav:Baltic_LVA_BA:Kivutkalns25,0.135449,0.12592 6,0.095 412,0.112405,0.056318,0.033746,0.013396,0.021691,-0.005522,-0.048839,0.001299,-0.016485,0.029732,0.043214,-0.021444,0.009016,0.01695,0.00152,-0.004274,5e-04,-0.000125,-0.005193,0.008011,-0.019521,-0.00012
2.Slav:Baltic_LVA_BA:Kivutkalns42,0.133173,0.13506 5,0.094 28,0.102391,0.045239,0.034861,0.014806,0.016153,-0.002454,-0.04483,0.002923,-0.018733,0.03553,0.043764,-0.021308,-0.00411,-0.005998,0.005828,0.008799,-0.002876,-0.000624,-0.00371,0.008874,-0.034945,0.002754
2.Slav:Ukrainian,0.1309273,0.1240867,0.0683506,0.0 575551, 0.0376867,0.0212936,0.0087651,0.0113072,-0.002891,-0.0210999,-0.0016327,-0.0076594,0.0153563,0.0216328,-0.0112354,-0.0010965,0.0046903,-0.0006985,0.0025989,0.0017002,-0.0044989,-0.003479,0.0067387,-0.0040578,0.0007217
3.MENA:IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N,0.0430252,0.0664158,-0.1550722,0.0047158,-0.122669,0.0235384,0.017109,-0.0011998,-0.082546,-0.0544158,-0.0028258,-0.0016186,0.0044896,-0.0062756,0.0316498,0.0561384,-0.0054242,0.0068664,0.0136508,-0.0334162,0.00856,-0.028836,-0.0110678,-0.039331,0.0222254
3.MENA:Levant_PPNB,0.072847,0.1639064,-0.0316026,-0.1361132,0.0332986,-0.0645352,-0.0134426,-0.0147684,0.0741604,0.03601,0.0188046,-0.0150764,0.035738,0.0025596,-0.0217696,0.006099,0.0098048,-0.0013176,-0.0047264,0.0188088,-0.001797,0.0071472,0.0008872,-0.0056874,-0.0037602
3.MENA:Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kaps,0.1013025,0.133034,-0.07071,-0.043605,-0.0498555,-0.0092035,0.008108,-0.011653,-0.066368,-0.01631,0.0030855,0.011015,-0.019846,0.005849,0.0042075,-0.0102095,-0.0001305,-0.003927,-0.001697,0.0032515,0.003494,-0.000247,-0.0036975,-0.0090975,-0.0030535
3.MENA:MAR_Taforalt,-0.189857,0.0814452,-0.0242866,-0.085595,0.027636,-0.0552202,-0.0705968,0.0184146,0.155397,0.003499,0.0209156,-0.0318316,0.0747168,-0.0513334,0.0711988,-0.0363032,0.0052676,-0.066106,-0.1424162,0.0389938,-0.0376836,-0.1255322,0.0730118,-0.0137606,0.0164534
3.MENA:GEO_CHG,0.091058,0.102568,-0.083344,-0.00323,-0.08617,0.020638,0.024911,-0.001846,-0.128236,-0.074717,-0.006333,0.023979,-0.054856,0.004404,0.026601,-0.03275,0.02386,-0.013429,-0.022249,0.034767,0.033815,-0.007048,0.006532,-0.025787,-0.002036

dosas
09-18-2021, 07:24 AM
snip

Greek + Balkan category: everything and everyone under the sun, including Corded_Ware_DEU, whereas Slavs are represent only by RUS_Catacomb and the Baltic HGs. :biggrin1:

Guys, take it easy with the copium, please, we don't want you to get hurt.

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

lockdownboredom
09-18-2021, 07:25 AM
Greek + Balkan category: everything and everyone under the sun, including Corded_Ware_DEU, whereas Slavs are represent only by RUS_Catacomb and the Baltic HGs. :biggrin1:

Guys, take it easy with the copium, please, we don't want you to get hurt.

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

The floor is yours to make a better model bud.

dosas
09-18-2021, 07:35 AM
The floor is yours to make a better model bud.

Michalis' model gives very good fits and is historically accurate, why don't you use that one? :biggrin1:

lockdownboredom
09-18-2021, 07:50 AM
Michalis' model gives very good fits and is historically accurate, why don't you use that one? :biggrin1:

Already have. The fits are worse. 2 is lower than 3 in case you needed a refresher on numbers.

dosas
09-18-2021, 07:55 AM
Already have. The fits are worse. 2 is lower than 3 in case you needed a refresher on numbers.

Can you maybe explain the time frame and the reasoning for your choice of references for the Greek+Balkan category in contrast to the Slavic one?

From where I see it, you're trying to over-fit the former (Greek & Balkan:HUN_MA_Szolad_o1 :biggrin1::biggrin1::biggrin1:) at the expense of the latter, so you can hide the real impact of it.

Are you trying to convince us Michalis' model of Slavic admixture representation is wrong? Because if you are, you really are going the wrong way about it ... :biggrin1:

lockdownboredom
09-18-2021, 08:17 AM
Can you maybe explain the time frame and the reasoning for your choice of references for the Greek+Balkan category in contrast to the Slavic one?

From where I see it, you're trying to over-fit the former (Greek & Balkan:HUN_MA_Szolad_o1 :biggrin1::biggrin1::biggrin1:) at the expense of the latter, so you can hide the real impact of it.

Are you trying to convince us Michalis' model of Slavic admixture representation is wrong? Because if you are, you really are going the wrong way about it ... :biggrin1:

The model is based on preexisting models submitted to this forum. Greek+Balkan obviously representing the genetic profiles prior to Slavic settlement. You seem very paranoid, my intention is not to reduce the Slavic percentage but to reduce the distance of the model. Adding HUN_MA_Szolad_o1 didn't even add a dent to the Slavic component. No significant change occurred apart from the reduction in distance, that's a win in my book.

lockdownboredom
09-18-2021, 09:45 AM
Don't know how you're going to control your orgasm after seeing this Dosas.

Target: LB_scaled
Distance: 2.0808% / 0.02080814
69.2 1.Greek&Balkan
23.6 2.Slav
7.2 3.MENA

https://i.ibb.co/JmZQTmp/g255.png


1.Greek & Balkan:Emporiote,0.118376,0.158423,-0.009051,-0.0670225,0.0252355,-0.027889,0.001645,-0.005077,0.0049085,0.042552,0.002842,0.01124,-0.016873,0.003578,-0.018526,-0.0157785,0.0035855,0.0003805,0.004588,-0.0126935,-0.008298,0.001546,0.001664,0.0071095,-0.008502
1.Greek & Balkan:HUN_MA_Szolad_o1:SZ19,0.120652,0.167562,0.0 12822,-0.045866,0.035391,-0.022869,-0.00047,-0.000923,0.001023,0.045559,0.007145,0.01079,-0.013528,0.007844,-0.014115,-0.018297,-0.003129,0.003421,0.008547,-0.016258,-0.010232,0.003462,0.005793,0.007832,0.001317
1.Greek & Balkan:GRC_Helladic_MBA:Log02,0.118376,0.153345,0. 018479,-0.022933,0.028621,-0.01506,-0.00094,-0.003461,0.0045,0.022051,0.00065,0.007044,-0.016501,0.00055,-0.014522,-0.013126,-0.006519,0.002154,0.004022,-0.003377,-0.009733,-0.000371,0.009244,0.001807,0.000838
1.Greek & Balkan:GRC_Helladic_MBA:Log04,0.122929,0.14319,0.0 26776,-0.000969,0.016003,-0.005578,-0.007755,-0.003,-0.006749,0.004374,0.002923,0.015586,-0.010852,0.001376,-0.004343,-0.012729,-0.006258,-0.003801,0.010433,-0.013882,-0.013476,0.005564,0.006902,0.008917,-0.005029
1.Greek & Balkan:GRC_Minoan_EBA,0.114961,0.171624,-0.017348,-0.091409,0.02739,-0.035419,0.00423,-0.002538,0.02168,0.055946,0.010393,0.004946,-0.015163,0.003716,-0.033659,-0.026651,-0.001043,0.004054,0.007919,-0.01038,-0.009858,0.007914,-0.003821,-0.004699,0.001676
1.Greek & Balkan:BGR_IA:I5769,0.126344,0.157407,0.007165,-0.051034,0.029852,-0.02259,0.00423,-0.001385,0.007772,0.032074,-0.001461,0.005695,-0.013974,-0.003028,-0.015065,-0.001458,0.01369,0.006968,0.006285,-0.014757,-0.006239,0.004699,-0.007888,0.003494,-0.008861
1.Greek & Balkan:HRV_IA:I3313,0.132035,0.151314,0.033941,-0.01615,0.024928,-0.005857,-0.006345,0.007154,0.003681,0.028976,0.001786,0.011 69,-0.02111,-0.001376,-0.005972,-0.008486,-0.006519,0.004941,0.005531,-0.014257,-0.001872,0.00507,0.001479,0.00253,0.003353
1.Greek & Balkan:HRV_EBA:I3499,0.119514,0.148267,0.015839,-0.01615,0.032621,-0.010877,-0.00329,-0.001385,0.006954,0.014943,0.004547,0.011989,-0.023042,-0.009909,-0.002307,-0.008751,0.001434,-0.003547,0.006536,0.003252,0.000499,-0.001855,0.003204,-0.001566,-0.017364
1.Greek & Balkan:HRV_MBA:I4331,0.12862,0.151314,0.028284,-0.007429,0.038776,-0.006972,-0.00705,-0.006,0.003681,0.028064,0.006171,0.010341,-0.017542,-0.003578,-0.0076,0.006497,0.008084,-0.003041,0.006159,-0.011631,-0.005865,-0.001113,-0.00037,0.003856,-0.001197
1.Greek & Balkan:HRV_MBA:I4332,0.120652,0.147252,0.034318,-0.012274,0.038469,0.002231,-0.00423,0.001154,0.009613,0.032074,-0.006008,0.01094,-0.012487,-0.014726,-0.005972,0.01074,0.02047,-0.00114,0.000754,-0.011005,-0.001248,0.008656,-0.00419,0.002048,-0.002395
1.Greek & Balkan:BGR_C:I0781,0.12862,0.174671,0.00792,-0.090763,0.043393,-0.036535,-0.000705,0.003923,0.035996,0.071072,0.001624,0.013 188,-0.022894,-0.003028,-0.036102,-0.011138,0.01343,0.0019,0.01169,-0.02001,-0.008735,0.000618,0.010723,-0.000361,-0.00946
1.Greek & Balkan:BGR_C:I2509,0.120652,0.174671,0.012822,-0.082365,0.047701,-0.039324,-0.00705,0.004154,0.038246,0.077086,-0.002273,0.008692,-0.021853,0.003441,-0.031759,-0.019093,-0.002608,0.001774,0.006034,-0.012756,-0.010981,0.007914,0.004314,-0.005543,-0.003592
1.Greek & Balkan:BGR_C:I2519,0.114961,0.175687,0.00264,-0.08398,0.045547,-0.042112,-0.00235,-0.000923,0.024543,0.069979,0.004547,0.017684,-0.02215,-0.00289,-0.021444,-0.011403,0.012126,-0.000887,0.00729,-0.009379,-0.014599,0.004204,-0.002095,-0.000602,-0.000599
1.Greek & Balkan:AUT_LBK_N:I5068,0.1161,0.18178,0.012068,-0.080104,0.066166,-0.039324,-0.00846,-0.010153,0.036405,0.086744,0.01153,0.007943,-0.014717,-0.002615,-0.037187,0.009546,0.03051,-0.0019,0.009804,-0.004627,0.002995,0.012118,0.007888,-0.000964,-0.002754
1.Greek & Balkan:AUT_LBK_N:I5069,0.122929,0.186857,0.011314,-0.087856,0.060934,-0.042391,-0.003995,-0.004615,0.040087,0.082917,0.008769,0.008542,-0.023042,0.007982,-0.036916,-0.01432,0.009518,-0.002914,0.018729,-0.012631,-0.008235,0.014096,-0.011092,0.000361,-0.006826
1.Greek & Balkan:AUT_LBK_N:I5070,0.124067,0.18178,0.012445,-0.091086,0.062473,-0.041555,-0.00423,-0.003231,0.046427,0.085469,0.008607,0.012589,-0.022448,-0.005643,-0.033659,-0.005038,0.036508,-0.00076,0.012444,0.000125,-0.010731,0.003833,-0.010599,-0.006748,-0.008502
1.Greek & Balkan:AUT_LBK_N:I5204,0.113823,0.179749,0.019233,-0.084949,0.065243,-0.037371,-0.000235,-0.001385,0.0452,0.083829,0.006658,0.007643,-0.019177,0.005092,-0.039359,-0.018695,-0.001565,0.000887,0.015335,-0.016258,-0.011854,0.012118,-0.003328,0.00012,-0.007664
1.Greek & Balkan:AUT_LBK_N:I5205,0.122929,0.185842,0.013576,-0.084303,0.065858,-0.049921,-0.00564,0.001615,0.045813,0.079819,0.000325,0.0076 43,-0.019623,0.005643,-0.039223,-0.017634,0.01682,0.001394,0.015209,-0.007128,-0.009733,0.010263,-0.012078,-0.005543,-0.002395
1.Greek & Balkan:AUT_LBK_N:I5206,0.124067,0.183811,0.017725,-0.092701,0.061242,-0.043228,0.00282,-0.008077,0.054608,0.088385,0.005521,0.017235,-0.023786,0.015827,-0.036916,-0.025457,0.003129,-0.00152,0.013198,-0.013757,-0.004866,0.007296,0.001972,-0.012652,-0.012933
1.Greek & Balkan:AUT_LBK_N:I5207,0.126344,0.187873,0.021873,-0.094316,0.071398,-0.044623,0.00141,-0.002077,0.040291,0.095127,0.013153,0.008692,-0.020069,-0.004404,-0.044788,-0.015513,0.006519,0.006968,0.014958,-0.012381,-0.001872,0.009398,-0.010723,-0.013375,-0.001557
1.Greek & Balkan:AUT_LBK_N:I5208,0.126344,0.183811,0.018102,-0.093024,0.060627,-0.044065,-0.000235,-0.002308,0.051131,0.086015,0.008931,0.013788,-0.020367,-0.001651,-0.037595,-0.016574,0.017341,0.006841,0.017472,-0.010505,-0.009608,0.009521,-0.008874,-0.013134,-0.004191
1.Greek & Balkan:Corded_Ware_DEU:I0049,0.130897,0.1046,0.058 831,0.0 85918,0.001231,0.032909,0.00423,0.001385,-0.035383,-0.040821,-0.004872,0.007793,-0.004608,-0.015414,0.025108,0.01432,-0.007171,0.000127,-0.004651,0.005878,0.002496,0.00136,0.013188,0.0212 08,-0.006107
1.Greek & Balkan:Corded_Ware_DEU:I0103,0.132035,0.113739,0.0 5506,0. 083011,0.001846,0.03514,0.000705,0.003923,-0.026997,-0.037905,-0.00341,-0.002398,-0.006244,-0.017753,0.024701,0.017634,-0.011213,0.007855,0.003897,0.009379,0.001747,0.005 07,0.003081,0.010965,0.009939
1.Greek & Balkan:Corded_Ware_DEU:I0104,0.132035,0.11577,0.04 978,0.0 78489,0.008309,0.031515,-0.003525,0.007154,-0.030065,-0.03262,-0.006171,-0.00015,-0.004311,-0.011147,0.025787,-0.004641,-0.022817,0.006461,0.005405,0,0.003494,0.00136,0.00 8134,0.020244,0.002634
1.Greek & Balkan:Corded_Ware_DEU:I0106,0.127482,0.100537,0.0 5242,0. 088825,0.008001,0.026495,-0.001645,0.002308,-0.006545,-0.033531,0.003735,-0.009142,-0.008176,-0.00867,0.032709,0.015115,-0.004824,0.007348,0.01169,-0.005753,-0.003369,-0.000124,0.008627,0.020244,-0.008861
1.Greek & Balkan:Corded_Ware_DEU:I1532,0.127482,0.12491,0.05 9962,0. 071706,0.012002,0.030678,0.003525,0,-0.018407,-0.028611,0.00065,0.002248,-0.004608,-0.00578,0.029858,0.005569,-0.019688,-0.00038,-0.001257,0.002126,0.012353,0.002349,0.001479,0.001 325,0.003952
1.Greek & Balkan:Corded_Ware_DEU:I1534,0.136588,0.099522,0.0 51666,0 .08721,0.011387,0.035419,0.00188,0.004384,-0.031292,-0.047017,0.01023,0.001798,-0.009366,-0.003028,0.015879,-0.00716,-0.032466,0.007348,-0.012444,-0.009004,-0.001373,0.007543,-0.017501,0.011568,-0.004311
1.Greek & Balkan:Corded_Ware_DEU:I1536,0.124067,0.099522,0.0 57699,0 .111436,-0.009232,0.037092,-0.002585,0.003692,-0.039678,-0.041003,0.004222,0.003147,-0.020367,-0.020368,0.027687,0.016706,-0.000652,-0.004814,-0.000126,0.028764,0.009234,0.008037,0.013311,0.057 237,-0.003473
1.Greek & Balkan:Corded_Ware_DEU:I1538,0.138864,0.108662,0.0 61471,0 .105299,-0.004001,0.048806,-0.011751,0.013615,-0.041518,-0.060502,0,0.001349,0.003717,-0.012524,0.013301,0.020684,-0.01682,0.010008,0.007668,0.018509,0.005366,-0.001607,0.016638,0.026389,0.00455
1.Greek & Balkan:Corded_Ware_DEU:I1539,0.122929,0.116786,0.0 61471,0 .090763,0.008925,0.028447,0.00047,0.005077,-0.019225,-0.026424,-0.00406,0.005545,-0.003865,0.002615,0.019815,0.005038,-0.019166,0.007095,-0.013827,0.005378,-0.020464,-0.003339,0.007641,0.008796,0.007185
1.Greek & Balkan:Corded_Ware_DEU:I1544,0.126344,0.126941,0.0 60339,0 .084949,0.002154,0.030678,0.019036,-0.015922,-0.031292,-0.047381,0.00341,0.013188,-0.010406,-0.003578,0.026058,-0.010872,-0.011865,0.00114,-0.016592,-0.008504,0.01959,-0.007048,0.006286,0.005302,-0.00467
2.Slav:RUS_Catacomb:MK3003,0.114961,0.081242,0.039 975,0.1 0336,-0.030159,0.0502,0.007755,-0.011538,-0.059721,-0.075628,0.008931,0.006444,-0.001487,-0.026286,0.03298,0.017502,0.008866,-0.005701,-0.00817,0.014257,-0.002496,0.001731,0.018117,0.030486,0.00479
2.Slav:RUS_Catacomb:RK4001,0.120652,0.093429,0.036 958,0.0 969,-0.028005,0.037092,-0.00047,-0.008769,-0.051949,-0.06925,-0.004872,0.002847,0.007433,-0.013625,0.042345,-0.010872,-0.022948,-0.005321,-0.004651,0.002251,0,-0.003215,0.013311,0.018798,-0.012933
2.Slav:RUS_Catacomb:RK4002,0.120652,0.09546,0.0433 69,0.11 402,-0.028928,0.052989,0.00282,0.006,-0.059925,-0.080913,0.005846,-0.000899,-0.001487,-0.019818,0.033251,0.013789,-0.011735,0.005194,0.004274,0.017633,0.001996,0.005 317,0.009244,0.015303,-0.002634
2.Slav:RUS_Catacomb:SA6003,0.1161,0.08632,0.048271 ,0.1136 97,-0.034468,0.05271,0.00094,-0.000923,-0.057267,-0.073259,-0.005196,0.008842,-0.003122,-0.020231,0.03488,-0.001989,-0.014733,0.005448,-0.005531,0.006253,-0.001123,0.00136,0.011709,0.023618,-0.012454
2.Slav:Baltic_LVA_BA:Kivutkalns153,0.137726,0.1238 95,0.11 0873,0.10336,0.041238,0.037929,0.012456,0.013153,-0.010022,-0.051391,0.005521,-0.019333,0.034192,0.046379,-0.013165,-0.011535,-0.00678,-0.005954,-0.007542,0.001126,0.010731,-0.002102,0.003081,-0.017954,-0.010059
2.Slav:Baltic_LVA_BA:Kivutkalns19,0.130897,0.12287 9,0.108 611,0.110467,0.052933,0.041276,0.015746,0.016384,-0.001636,-0.049204,-0.001137,-0.016785,0.037165,0.037296,-0.017236,0.005834,0.004172,0.007855,0.008045,0.009 505,0.000749,-0.00643,0.019473,-0.020123,0.006586
2.Slav:Baltic_LVA_BA:Kivutkalns194,0.118376,0.1340 5,0.092 017,0.10756,0.034776,0.038208,0.011281,0.010384,0. 022089,-0.038087,0.004222,-0.007493,0.024232,0.040186,-0.020901,0.009016,0.010561,-0.006841,-0.002137,0.027513,-0.017594,-0.005441,0.013804,-0.022413,0.011735
2.Slav:Baltic_LVA_BA:Kivutkalns207,0.129758,0.1249 1,0.110 119,0.114666,0.048932,0.047133,0.016686,0.019384,-0.003477,-0.058316,-0.00341,-0.025777,0.036571,0.052709,-0.014658,-0.009546,-0.00678,-0.003294,-0.006913,0.003252,-0.005366,-0.006554,0.008504,-0.025184,0.001796
2.Slav:Baltic_LVA_BA:Kivutkalns209,0.124067,0.1178 01,0.08 9,0.120157,0.046778,0.041555,0.012926,0.028383,-0.002045,-0.052302,-0.00747,-0.021431,0.037611,0.046104,-0.016422,0.004906,0.0103,-0.008235,-0.002137,0.00963,-0.004492,-0.011252,0.014666,-0.02181,0.002515
2.Slav:Baltic_LVA_BA:Kivutkalns215,0.134311,0.1330 34,0.09 956,0.108529,0.051702,0.04016,0.013396,0.021461,0. 003477,-0.050844,-0.005034,-0.019633,0.029732,0.039773,-0.012351,-0.003182,-0.015255,0.003294,-0.000754,0.012756,0.003494,-0.005317,-0.000616,-0.020003,0.007664
2.Slav:Baltic_LVA_BA:Kivutkalns222,0.130897,0.1238 95,0.10 1068,0.120157,0.057549,0.044344,0.020211,0.022384,-0.005522,-0.045923,0.000162,-0.024578,0.031516,0.040736,-0.013979,0.011403,0.011995,-0.007221,0.004022,0.008629,-0.009234,-0.000742,0.007272,-0.0194,0
2.Slav:Baltic_LVA_BA:Kivutkalns25,0.135449,0.12592 6,0.095 412,0.112405,0.056318,0.033746,0.013396,0.021691,-0.005522,-0.048839,0.001299,-0.016485,0.029732,0.043214,-0.021444,0.009016,0.01695,0.00152,-0.004274,5e-04,-0.000125,-0.005193,0.008011,-0.019521,-0.00012
2.Slav:Baltic_LVA_BA:Kivutkalns42,0.133173,0.13506 5,0.094 28,0.102391,0.045239,0.034861,0.014806,0.016153,-0.002454,-0.04483,0.002923,-0.018733,0.03553,0.043764,-0.021308,-0.00411,-0.005998,0.005828,0.008799,-0.002876,-0.000624,-0.00371,0.008874,-0.034945,0.002754
2.Slav:Ukrainian,0.1309273,0.1240867,0.0683506,0.0 575551, 0.0376867,0.0212936,0.0087651,0.0113072,-0.002891,-0.0210999,-0.0016327,-0.0076594,0.0153563,0.0216328,-0.0112354,-0.0010965,0.0046903,-0.0006985,0.0025989,0.0017002,-0.0044989,-0.003479,0.0067387,-0.0040578,0.0007217
2.Slav:HUN_Avar_Szolad_Av2,0.134311,0.126941,0.081 458,0.065569,0.035391,0.033746,0.00987,0.005769,0. 004704,-0.02278,-0.002436,-0.005395,0.01219,0.020643,-0.015201,-0.003845,0.005867,0.004561,0.008673,5e-04,0.001497,-0.00272,0.013804,-0.007109,0.002634
2.Slav:RUS_Sunghir_MA_Sunghir6,0.129758,0.116786,0 .070899,0.060078,0.041238,0.018965,0.009165,0.0113 07,0.001432,-0.017859,0.000487,-0.008093,0.014271,0.023809,-0.014658,-0.005834,0.00013,-0.002154,0.000628,-0.001251,-0.007986,-0.005812,0.012695,-0.010724,-0.005868
2.Slav:DEU_Krakauer_Berg_MA_KRA001,0.129758,0.1259 26,0.075424,0.072029,0.046778,0.026774,0.011986,0. 010384,-0.001636,-0.021322,-0.003085,-0.006294,0.008028,0.021194,-0.013843,0.013789,0.019036,-0.005701,0.00352,0.005378,0.004991,-0.008408,0.000986,-0.006145,0.001796
2.Slav:DEU_Krakauer_Berg_MA_KRA009,0.126344,0.1279 57,0.067127,0.070737,0.042162,0.02008,0.011281,0.0 14999,-0.001023,-0.032802,-0.001949,-0.01124,0.017542,0.01968,-0.012893,0.007558,0.011604,0.00114,0.005782,0.0115 06,-0.010357,0.003091,0.007765,-0.008796,-0.001676
2.Slav:DEU_Krakauer_Berg_MA_KRA011,0.125205,0.1299 88,0.078818,0.072675,0.047701,0.027889,0.013161,0. 006692,0.005522,-0.020593,-0.00065,-0.009292,0.018583,0.027249,-0.011672,-0.010342,-0.006389,0.00266,0.008045,0.002876,-0.011729,-0.008037,0.007272,-0.003494,0.003952
2.Slav:Moravia_POH13,0.127482,0.132019,0.083721,0. 078489,0.050471,0.026495,0.00517,0.018922,0.004295 ,-0.028429,-0.004384,-0.006744,0.017988,0.043076,-0.008143,-0.011668,0.005346,0.000507,0.004022,0.012256,-0.012228,-0.008903,0.01368,-0.013496,-0.002395
2.Slav:Moravia_POH28,0.141141,0.136081,0.087492,0. 081719,0.047086,0.027052,0.019976,0.023999,0.01063 5,-0.01385,-0.001299,-0.014537,0.027502,0.03647,-0.015065,-0.007425,-0.014473,-0.005954,-0.005531,0,-0.007237,-0.004204,0.000616,-0.00964,-0.002275
3.MENA:IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N,0.0430252,0.0664158,-0.1550722,0.0047158,-0.122669,0.0235384,0.017109,-0.0011998,-0.082546,-0.0544158,-0.0028258,-0.0016186,0.0044896,-0.0062756,0.0316498,0.0561384,-0.0054242,0.0068664,0.0136508,-0.0334162,0.00856,-0.028836,-0.0110678,-0.039331,0.0222254
3.MENA:Levant_PPNB,0.072847,0.1639064,-0.0316026,-0.1361132,0.0332986,-0.0645352,-0.0134426,-0.0147684,0.0741604,0.03601,0.0188046,-0.0150764,0.035738,0.0025596,-0.0217696,0.006099,0.0098048,-0.0013176,-0.0047264,0.0188088,-0.001797,0.0071472,0.0008872,-0.0056874,-0.0037602
3.MENA:Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kaps,0.1013025,0.133034,-0.07071,-0.043605,-0.0498555,-0.0092035,0.008108,-0.011653,-0.066368,-0.01631,0.0030855,0.011015,-0.019846,0.005849,0.0042075,-0.0102095,-0.0001305,-0.003927,-0.001697,0.0032515,0.003494,-0.000247,-0.0036975,-0.0090975,-0.0030535
3.MENA:MAR_Taforalt,-0.189857,0.0814452,-0.0242866,-0.085595,0.027636,-0.0552202,-0.0705968,0.0184146,0.155397,0.003499,0.0209156,-0.0318316,0.0747168,-0.0513334,0.0711988,-0.0363032,0.0052676,-0.066106,-0.1424162,0.0389938,-0.0376836,-0.1255322,0.0730118,-0.0137606,0.0164534
3.MENA:GEO_CHG,0.091058,0.102568,-0.083344,-0.00323,-0.08617,0.020638,0.024911,-0.001846,-0.128236,-0.074717,-0.006333,0.023979,-0.054856,0.004404,0.026601,-0.03275,0.02386,-0.013429,-0.022249,0.034767,0.033815,-0.007048,0.006532,-0.025787,-0.002036
3.MENA:Levant_Beirut_ERoman,0.0859368,0.1406508,-0.0576052,-0.0909245,-0.0153875,-0.0312358,-0.0051112,-0.005596,0.007465,0.010524,0.0064958,-0.0090293,0.0178392,-0.0026492,-0.0099752,0.0170377,0.0113435,-0.0044975,0.0018855,0.0016572,0.0022772,0.0048845,-0.0008625,0.0039462,-0.0029638
3.MENA:Levant_Beirut_Hellenistic,0.064879,0.147252 ,-0.060339,-0.0809115,-0.0063085,-0.029144,-0.0024675,-0.013615,0.0018405,0.0059225,0.005115,-0.0006745,0.0079535,0.0033715,-0.012283,-0.002718,-0.00665,0.0012035,0.009867,-0.012944,0.0034315,0.004637,-0.0057925,-0.002109,-0.005688

CyrylBojarski
09-18-2021, 09:55 AM
Slightly better result with a new model:


This model doesn't show real Slavic percentage in Balkanites, because it has very northern Baltic samples, which increase Greek, Balkan and MENA

3/4 North Euro 1/4 Bulgarian results:

With Baltic:

Target: Cyryl_mom_scaled
Distance: 2.4054% / 0.02405365
61.8 Slav
36.6 Greek&Balkan
1.6 MENA

Without Baltic:

Target: Cyryl_mom_scaled
Distance: 2.7356% / 0.02735626
82.2 Slav
15.4 Greek&Balkan
2.4 MENA

Target: Cyryl_mom_scaled
Distance: 2.7356% / 0.02735626
75.2 Ukrainian
15.4 BGR_IA:I5769
7.0 RUS_Catacomb:MK3003
2.4 Levant_PPNB

Aspar
09-18-2021, 10:44 AM
Can some Greek fellow members explain this to me. I always thought the Vlachs didn't settle all the way down to Peloponnese however I've noticed some strange toponyms down there such as this one: Vlachokerasia (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vlachokerasia).

Also it seems there are some pretty recent yDna links between Balkan people and Greeks from Arcadia where this village is located at. Links like this ones:
E-A18844 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-A18844/)
E-FT76098 (https://www.yfull.com/live/tree/E-FT76098/) - In this branch there used to be a Romanian sample which somehow disappeared now. However it formed a branch with the Arcadian with TMRCA very likely in the last 1000 years.

What do you make out of this and are there any sources that speak of Vlach settlements in Peloponnese? Also, could there be that the Greek term Arvanites was an umbrella term that incorporated not only Albanians but also Vlach speakers that could have came from Albania?

dosas
09-18-2021, 11:27 AM
Also, could there be that the Greek term Arvanites was an umbrella term that incorporated not only Albanians but also Vlach speakers that could have came from Albania?


Arvanito-Vlach (Αρβανιτοβλάχοι) is an exonym, an umbrella term as you say. It can also refer to the Karagkouni, in some cases (see History by Meletios).

Aspar
09-18-2021, 11:42 AM
Arvanito-Vlach (Αρβανιτοβλάχοι) is an exonym, an umbrella term as you say. It can also refer to the Karagkouni, in some cases (see History by Meletios).

Thanks dosas

Are there any historical accounts with this "Αρβανιτοβλάχοι" name made by Medieval Greek writers?

I know there are plenty accounts where "Αρβανίτες" is used but I am not sure I have ever encountered "Αρβανιτοβλάχοι". Will be interesting to see them if there are any. That should be strong enough evidence that Vlachs settled in Peloponnese as well, not only Albanians...

dosas
09-18-2021, 11:54 AM
Thanks dosas

Are there any historical accounts with this "Αρβανιτοβλάχοι" name made by Medieval Greek writers?

I know there are plenty accounts where "Αρβανίτες" is used but I am not sure I have ever encountered "Αρβανιτοβλάχοι". Will be interesting to see them if there are any. That should be strong enough evidence that Vlachs settled in Peloponnese as well, not only Albanians...


I mostly encountered the term while reading the historical accords of Archbishop Meletios. I am seeing now on the wikipedia (https://el.wikipedia.org/wiki/%CE%91%CF%81%CE%B2%CE%B1%CE%BD%CE%B9%CF%84%CF%8C%C E%B2%CE%BB%CE%B1%CF%87%CE%BF%CE%B9)page that they mostly settled in Aetolia-Acarnania.

Aspar
09-18-2021, 11:59 AM
I mostly encountered the term while reading the historical accords of Archbishop Meletios. I am seeing now on the wikipedia (https://el.wikipedia.org/wiki/%CE%91%CF%81%CE%B2%CE%B1%CE%BD%CE%B9%CF%84%CF%8C%C E%B2%CE%BB%CE%B1%CF%87%CE%BF%CE%B9)page that they mostly settled in Aetolia-Acarnania.

Interesting article...


Το 1852 - 1854, ο Γάλλος περιηγητής Edmond About συνάντησε Βλάχους νομαδοκτηνοτρόφους στα περίχωρα της Αθήνας τους οποίους χαρακτηρίζει ως Αρβανιτόβλαχους και οι οποίοι προμήθευαν τους Αθηναίους με τα αρνιά του Πάσχα. Επίσης Αρβανιτόβλαχοι παρατηρούνται στις πλαγιές της Όθρυς, στην Υπάτη, ακόμα και στην περιοχή του Άργους στην Πελοπόννησο.

At seems some were observed in Peloponnese but it's not clear if there were permanent settlements...

Andrewid
09-18-2021, 12:03 PM
Having some Middle East component is not something bad as previously felt and believed..
This is part of our history. It shows in many historical and cultural ways. Oriental periods/influences in ancient Greece…

Agreed. But part of the problem is the nomenclature and what that represents with today's thinking. 'Middle East' should be avoided- a modern term which encompasses a very wide area. As Mihalis correctly states above, 'East Med' is often used but that often means what we might call 'Aegean-Anatolian'. This is the greatest component for Dodecanesians and also for Cypriots. The latter may be more shifted to the 'Levant' (meaning in this case the north coastal Levant i.e. Lebanon and the Syrian littoral) than other Greeks, but primary component remains Aegean-Anatolian. But the 'Levantine' component is something to be embraced too, so our own internalised orientalism as Greeks is challenged if not banished altogether.

Exercitus
09-18-2021, 12:57 PM
Absolutely not, such absurd concept of "umbrella term" does not exist !! Vlachs (gr. Βλαχοι, turc. Eflagan) were simply Vlachs and Albanians/Arvanites(gr. Αρβανίτες/ Αλβανίτες, turc. Arnavudan) were simply Albanians/Arvanites, stop speculating!! Take a look at Serbian Chrysobulls, Byzantine Chronicles and Ottoman Defters to realize such fact (clear ethnic distinction between ethno-linguistic communities!) you have the cases of Kicevo, Damasi, Sofyana, Hocishte etc in the Defters, that shows us how 'capable' were Ottomans to differentiate the various ethnicities during the XV & XVI centuries (Defters of the years: 1431, 1467, 1461, 1474, 1454, 1422,1483, 1519, 1583 etc). Arvanitovlachs were simply Vlachs from Albania/north-west Epirus !! So please cut the bull....it.

Riverman
09-18-2021, 01:04 PM
Interesting article...

At seems some were observed in Peloponnese but it's not clear if there were permanent settlements...

This older map is quite interesting, it shows that nearly no place in the Peleponnes being completely spared from Albanian, Vlach and Slavic settlements. Even if the community was purely Greek, the neighbours were not. There could be rare instances of isolation, but I know from other places, that the safest border is language and religious confession. If those two overlap, people almost always mix at some point, especially if talking about almost 1.500 years.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6e/Pelopones_ethnic.JPG
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6e/Pelopones_ethnic.JPG

I don't know whether some Greek, especially Tsakonian and Maniot, clans lived truly endogamous, but if not, they all got influenced by these neighbouring people. Before I saw that map I didn't realise that even to the very Southern tip of the Peleponnes were well established Slavic tribal communities.

Concerning the Albanian settlements, I guess even those Albanian groups without known Vlach elements had picked them up before entering Greece anyway, so from a genetic point of view they surely brought it with them.

dosas
09-18-2021, 01:17 PM
Interesting article...



This (https://www.protothema.gr/stories/article/803227/oi-arvanitovlahoi-remenoi-vlahoi/)is an interesting article on them, from a popular paper, but I am afraid you'll probably have to use Google Translate. It seems that they were bilingual in both Albanian and Aromanian.

Exercitus
09-18-2021, 01:28 PM
https://trafo.hypotheses.org/29503

Chatzianastasoglou
09-18-2021, 03:09 PM
Can some Greek fellow members explain this to me. I always thought the Vlachs didn't settle all the way down to Peloponnese however I've noticed some strange toponyms down there such as this one: Vlachokerasia (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vlachokerasia).

Also it seems there are some pretty recent yDna links between Balkan people and Greeks from Arcadia where this village is located at. Links like this ones:
E-A18844 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-A18844/)
E-FT76098 (https://www.yfull.com/live/tree/E-FT76098/) - In this branch there used to be a Romanian sample which somehow disappeared now. However it formed a branch with the Arcadian with TMRCA very likely in the last 1000 years.

What do you make out of this and are there any sources that speak of Vlach settlements in Peloponnese? Also, could there be that the Greek term Arvanites was an umbrella term that incorporated not only Albanians but also Vlach speakers that could have came from Albania?
Since the Vlachs were orthodox, too, there is no reason why they shouldn't have settled down to the orthodox Peloponnese too in Ottoman times or even before. The Vlachs lived partly as nomads in Greece till the 20th century. If you are searching for Vlachs in the Peloponnese you find this article for example which is talking about the presence of Vlachs around Argos.

https://www.vlahoi.net/vlahoi-kai-ellinismos/anafora-stous-vlahous-tis-akarnanias

They might have been a very small minority though, the biggest minority being the Arvanites.

The term "Arvanites" does not include Vlachs, an Arvanite is no Vlach, a Vlach no Arvanite. The Arvanitovlachs are Vlachs originating from southern Albania who have been living for a long time around Albanian populations, means had practically no contact with Greek populations originally, but - not long ago - migrated southwards to the Greek populations. Also the term Arvanitovlachs is no umbrella term, it does not include in any way Arvanites, only Vlachs from the Arvanitiį (another older Greek term of todays central and southern Albania, its geographically wider than the term Vorios Ipiros-Northern Epirus). So it does not aim at putting together Arvanites and Vlachs in one. There is also no reason to, its two different cultures with different origins

Kanenas
09-18-2021, 03:16 PM
Can some Greek fellow members explain this to me. I always thought the Vlachs didn't settle all the way down to Peloponnese however I've noticed some strange toponyms down there such as this one: Vlachokerasia (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vlachokerasia).

Also it seems there are some pretty recent yDna links between Balkan people and Greeks from Arcadia where this village is located at. Links like this ones:
E-A18844 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-A18844/)
E-FT76098 (https://www.yfull.com/live/tree/E-FT76098/) - In this branch there used to be a Romanian sample which somehow disappeared now. However it formed a branch with the Arcadian with TMRCA very likely in the last 1000 years.

What do you make out of this and are there any sources that speak of Vlach settlements in Peloponnese? Also, could there be that the Greek term Arvanites was an umbrella term that incorporated not only Albanians but also Vlach speakers that could have came from Albania?

The term 'Arvanitis' could have been also used in a geographical sense, not ethnic sense (especially not strictly ethinc sense). If someone was thought to have been from 'Arvanon' he could have been considered Arvanitis. The thing is terms like Albania and Epirus (like Macedonia etc) were used rather inconsistently.
Τhe use of the term Arvanitovlachi should be rather recent though, not Medieval.

Also the term Vlach was also used for people from Italy, not exclusively Aromanians.

Exercitus
09-18-2021, 03:30 PM
The word 'dot' which was used for the 'Dotani Vlachs', is actually an Albanian word:

Etymology
From Proto-Albanian *dhētim, accusative of Proto-Indo-European *dhē (“to put”). Alternatively it might represent a univerbation of do +‎ tė.



"Can't" in negative sentences and "can" in interrogative ones. Can be added in sentences with mund to add emphasis.
Nuk e bėj dot.
I can't do it.
A vjen dot?
Can you come?

https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/dot

https://fjale.al/dot

During the XVI century, in the basis of the Defters of the years:
1504 & 1593, the Village of Frasher had NONE ethnic Vlach, considering the folk anthroponymy, they came much more later, the same thing could be noticed concerning the Vlachs Myzeqars, Kolonjars, Llacifaci etc the only permanent established Vlach Village/Town was Voskopoje/Moschopolje !!

https://i.imgur.com/7kUq1V0.jpeg

Exercitus
09-18-2021, 04:12 PM
Kanenas
Please give me at least a single example (utilizing medieval sources !) that might prove your point: inhabitants from Albania/Northwest Epirus who had been qualified as 'Albanians/Arvanites' regardless of their ethno-linguistic background !?

Riverman
09-18-2021, 04:55 PM
Did anyone here investigate what happened with the Slavic tribes and clans settling in the Peleponnes? Where most of them just assimilated, when and how exactly? Or is this largely unknown and not in the records? As you can see on the map, a large portion of the Peleponnes had Slavic tribal elements, but they seem to have disappeared largely as an ethnic unity quite early.

Kelmendasi
09-18-2021, 05:14 PM
The term 'Arvanitis' could have been also used in a geographical sense, not ethnic sense (especially not strictly ethinc sense). If someone was thought to have been from 'Arvanon' he could have been considered Arvanitis. The thing is terms like Albania and Epirus (like Macedonia etc) were used rather inconsistently.
Τhe use of the term Arvanitovlachi should be rather recent though, not Medieval.

Also the term Vlach was also used for people from Italy, not exclusively Aromanians.
To my knowledge the exonym Arvanite (Αρβανίτε) in the medieval sources had ethno-linguistic (Albanian-speaking) implications rather than geographic ones considering that the sources distinguish different groups such as the Vlachs (Βλάχοι) from them and that they are recorded as speaking Albanian and as being separate entities from the local Greeks. The ethnic Albanian character of these communities is then confirmed by the presence of typical Albanian anthroponymy in multiple different registers. Also, as is mentioned in the paper linked by user Exercitus, a number of these Arvanites likely did not settle the Peloponnese directly from Albania, but rather had arrived from areas of modern Greece such as Acarnania, Aetolia and Arta where they had been living for generations under the Albanian polities of the region prior to their fall and supersession by Carlo I Tocco and others.

Kelmendasi
09-18-2021, 05:18 PM
Did anyone here investigate what happened with the Slavic tribes and clans settling in the Peleponnes? Where most of them just assimilated, when and how exactly? Or is this largely unknown and not in the records? As you can see on the map, a large portion of the Peleponnes had Slavic tribal elements, but they seem to have disappeared largely as an ethnic unity quite early.
From John V. A. Fine's The Early Medieval Balkans: A Critical Survey from the Sixth to the Late Twelfth Century:

Furthermore the Slavs surely did not occupy the whole interior or eliminate the whole Greek population of Greece. Some Greek villages must have remained in the countryside too; presumably there would have been pure Greek, pure Slavic, and even mixed villages, and in time, with intermarriages, assimilation. Probably it worked in both directions, depending on which population was dominant in what area. Quite possibly some of the assimilation or hellenization of the Slavs by the Greeks of the Peloponnesus took place in the period before Byzantine recovery. (p. 63).

At the time of Byzantine recovery in the early ninth century (to be discussed subsequently) many Greeks from Sicily and Asia Minor were resettled in the interior of Greece, which increased the number of Greek-speakers. With the restoration of Byzantine administration, which strongly supported an active church missionary program during the ninth century, there followed the Christianization and hellenization of many Slavs. With the tide moving in this direction in the period after recovery, assimilation worked in favor of the Greeks with Slavs becoming grecized. Thus by the tenth century, except for pockets here and there, all the Peloponnesus was "Greek" again (i.e., Greek in culture and language). (pp. 63-64).

The fact that the rehellenization of Greece was successful, through recolonization and the cultural activities of the church, suggests that the Slavs found themselves in the midst of many Greeks, it is doubtful that such large numbers could have been transplanted into Greece in the ninth century; thus there surely had been many Greeks remaining in Greece and continuing to speak Greek throughout the period of Slavic occupation. (p. 64).

Greek-speakers who were brought into the area came to absorb and dominate the Slavs (aided by the restored administration and the church whose conversion of the Slavs was a major factor in their rehellenization). Even after a Slavonic liturgy was created in the middle of the ninth century (which was supported by the Byzantines for foreign Slavic states), the Byzantines did not permit the Slavonic liturgy inside what were felt to be Greek territories. The Slavs of Greece all attended Greek-language churches. (p. 82).

Aspar
09-18-2021, 09:46 PM
From reading further on the matter it seems the term Arvanitovlach is a recent term and the Medieval writers such as John VI Kantakouzenos didn't make much difference between the Vlachs and the Albanians that migrated from South Albania and most often than not lumped the first under the later.

Such is the case with the Medieval tribe Malakasii which Kantakouzenos called it Albanian however the Albanophile historian Nicholas Hammond argues these were Vlachs instead and derives the name of the tribe from the Vlach language meaning "bad encampments"!
Furthermore in the stronghold of the Vlachs in Greece, the Pindus mountain, there is a village called Malakasi whose inhabitants were recorded in the 19th century as Vlach speakers which further gives weight to the claim of Nicholas Hammond that Malakasii weren't Albanians but Vlachs!
Villages with this name were recorded in Attica as well as in Ellis in Peloponnese.

Kelmendasi
09-18-2021, 10:16 PM
From reading further on the matter it seems the term Arvanitovlach is a recent term and the Medieval writers such as John VI Kantakouzenos didn't make much difference between the Vlachs and the Albanians that migrated from South Albania and most often than not lumped the first under the later.

Such is the case with the Medieval tribe Malakasii which Kantakouzenos called it Albanian however the Albanophile historian Nicholas Hammond argues these were Vlachs instead and derives the name of the tribe from the Vlach language meaning "bad encampments"!
Furthermore in the stronghold of the Vlachs in Greece, the Pindus mountain, there is a village called Malakasi whose inhabitants were recorded in the 19th century as Vlach speakers which further gives weight to the claim of Nicholas Hammond that Malakasii weren't Albanians but Vlachs!
Villages with this name were recorded in Attica as well as in Ellis in Peloponnese.
N. G. L. Hammond in fact argued that there were two distinct tribes under the name of Malakasioi, one being Albanian from an ethno-linguistic perspective and the other Vlach. From his Migrations and Invasions in Greece and Adjacent Areas: While Mazaraki is in central Epirus by the river Kalamas, Malakasa is the coastal plain of central Albania farther north and the words Ā‘of his own race' were used to distinguish the Albanian-speaking Malakasaei from the Vlach-speaking Malakasii. (p. 59). The fact that these Malakasioi were seen as being of the same 'race' as Pjetėr Losha, who consensus strongly puts forth as Albanian, solidifies their ethno-linguistic character and origin.

From The Vlachs: The History of a Balkan People by Tom Winnifrith: They were Albanians with no king, called after their tribal chiefs, Malakasii, Bouii, and Mesaritae. But these were probably Vlachs; there were in Pouqeuville's time Vlachs in the Pindus who called themselves Bovi and there is still a village called Malakasi. Elsewhere we hear of the Albanian leader Peter Leosas , leading Malakasii of his own race ,and this would seem to suggest two kinds of Malakasii. (p. 120).

So it can be suggested and put forth that these were two different ethno-linguistic entities and peoples sharing a common name and that the ones referred to by John VI Kantakouzenos were indeed Albanians. In the case for the Albanian Malakasioi it was likely a reference to their ancestral homeland in Mallakastėr (https://www.google.com/maps/place/Mallakast%C3%ABr,+Albania/@40.5351589,19.657637,11z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m5!3m4!1s0x135ab84b58fe6993:0x6ac23 109e5360942!8m2!3d40.5273376!4d19.7829791), a region in south-western Albania, which derives its etymology from Aromanian. As for the inhabitants of Malakasi, Greece, who are recorded as Vlachs, it is debateable if they are related to the Albanian Malakasioi or the Vlach group. Giuseppe Valentini argued that they were the descendants of the Albanian tribe but had adopted Vlach customs and language later.

What is most interesting is that in the Ottoman defter of 1467 on Dibra and the adjacent territories to the north in Albania the family names Malakasi and Mallakasa are attested as well as the settlement of Malakas itself. From Shėmill Gjergj Malakasi and from Prapungjini Gjin Mallakasa. Going by their anthroponyms and the others recorded in both these settlements, these two individuals were Albanians.

Aspar
09-18-2021, 10:32 PM
N. G. L. Hammond in fact argued that there were two distinct tribes under the name of Malakasioi, one being Albanian from an ethno-linguistic perspective and the other Vlach. From his Migrations and Invasions in Greece and Adjacent Areas: While Mazaraki is in central Epirus by the river Kalamas, Malakasa is the coastal plain of central Albania farther north and the words ‘of his own race' were used to distinguish the Albanian-speaking Malakasaei from the Vlach-speaking Malakasii. (p. 59). The fact that these Malakasioi were seen as being of the same 'race' as Pjetėr Losha, who consensus strongly puts forth as Albanian, solidifies their ethno-linguistic character and origin.

From The Vlachs: The History of a Balkan People by Tom Winnifrith: They were Albanians with no king, called after their tribal chiefs, Malakasii, Bouii, and Mesaritae. But these were probably Vlachs; there were in Pouqeuville's time Vlachs in the Pindus who called themselves Bovi and there is still a village called Malakasi. Elsewhere we hear of the Albanian leader Peter Leosas , leading Malakasii of his own race ,and this would seem to suggest two kinds of Malakasii. (p. 120).

So it can be suggested and put forth that these were two different ethno-linguistic entities and peoples sharing a common name and that the ones referred to by John VI Kantakouzenos were indeed Albanians. In the case for the Albanian Malakasioi it was likely a reference to their ancestral homeland in Mallakastėr (https://www.google.com/maps/place/Mallakast%C3%ABr,+Albania/@40.5351589,19.657637,11z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m5!3m4!1s0x135ab84b58fe6993:0x6ac23 109e5360942!8m2!3d40.5273376!4d19.7829791), a region in south-western Albania, which derives its etymology from Aromanian. As for the inhabitants of Malakasi, Greece, who are recorded as Vlachs, it is debateable if they are related to the Albanian Malakasioi or the Vlach group. Giuseppe Valentini argued that they were the descendants of the Albanian tribe but had adopted Vlach customs and language later.

I've read that on Wikipedia and it seems this article has been changed from the last time I've checked, giving more Albanian nature to Malakasii than what has been previously written however Peter Losha was the leader of his own clans as well as the leader of Mazaraki and Malakasi. A broad alliance of tribes of both Albanian and Vlach provenance under Losha is very likely to have taken place and this automatically dismiss the assumption that Malakasi were Albanians just because Losha was Albanian.
At least, the points of Hammond that the name is of Aromanian origin are strong enough and this overwhelms the argue od Giuseppe Valentini that Malkasi in Pindus are Vlachicized Albanians especially since Pindus is a Vlach stronghold as I said earlier.
Nevertheless I believe Albanians and Vlachs from South Albania together migrated to Greece where they encountered already settled Vlachs called Kutzovlachs by the Greeks while no term for these Albanian Vlachs was known to Greeks until recently known Arvanitovlachs!

Kelmendasi
09-18-2021, 10:42 PM
I've read that on Wikipedia and it seems this article has been changed from the last time I've checked, giving more Albanian nature to Malakasii than what has been previously written however Peter Losha was the leader of his own clans as well as the leader of Mazaraki and Malakasi. A broad alliance of tribes of both Albanian and Vlach provenance under Losha is very likely to have taken place and this automatically dismiss the assumption that Malakasi were Albanians just because Losha was Albanian.
At least, the points of Hammond that the name is of Aromanian origin are strong enough and this overwhelms the argue od Giuseppe Valentini that Malkasi in Pindus are Vlachicized Albanians especially since Pindus is a Vlach stronghold as I said earlier.
Nevertheless I believe Albanians and Vlachs from South Albania together migrated to Greece where they encountered already settled Vlachs called Kutzovlachs by the Greeks while no term for these Albanian Vlachs was known to Greeks until recently known Arvanitovlachs!
The Wikipedia page was updated with more bibliography and full quotations of the works. And not necessarily, the sources link Losha and the Malakasioi as the latter are recorded as belonging to the same 'race' as the former leader who we can say rather conclusively was an ethnic Albanian. Medieval concepts of race and ethnic belonging were based on common descent, language and customs. These writers were well aware of the ethno-linguistic differences between the Albanians and Vlachs, as well as their differences with the Greeks and others. And as presented above Hammond and others believed that there were two different tribes sharing this name, one Albanian and one Vlach. I also edited my post above to include attestations of Albanians bearing the names Malakasi and Mallakasa in the more northern territories of Albania.

Aspar
09-18-2021, 11:12 PM
The Wikipedia page was updated with more bibliography and full quotations of the works. And not necessarily, the sources link Losha and the Malakasioi as the latter are recorded as belonging to the same 'race' as the former leader who we can say rather conclusively was an ethnic Albanian. Medieval concepts of race and ethnic belonging were based on common descent, language and customs. These writers were well aware of the ethno-linguistic differences between the Albanians and Vlachs, as well as their differences with the Greeks and others. And as presented above Hammond and others believed that there were two different tribes sharing this name, one Albanian and one Vlach. I also edited my post above to include attestations of Albanians bearing the names Malakasi and Mallakasa in the more northern territories of Albania.

You might insist that no Albanian Vlachs were recorded as Arvanites but Malakasi are already good enough proof to show that things back than weren't as clear as we might want to be from today's perspective. Malakasi was obviously a Vlach name with Vlachs speakers of a village bearing the same name in the 19th century. This is already a strong proof that the Malakasi of Kantakouzenos weren't Albanians but Vlachs.
Their Albanian provenance rest only on the interpretation of some historians that since Losha was an Albanian, Malakasi must be too because Losha was their leader.

It's obvious the Albanian provenance isn't that strong nor it has strong enough arguments for it.

Also, the origin of Losha isn't that conclusive as you make it out to be. Some historians think he might have been Vlach instead. Croatian historian Milan Šufflay (1879–1931) spoke of an Albano-Aromanian symbiosis in the Pindus, and discussed the nationality of the Losha, Bua and Shpata. Again, his name might have Albanian etymology but Malakasis name is of Aromanian etymology.

Let's say we disagree on this one and no, I don't make all Arvanites of Vlach origin, I said some were of Vlach origin, that's all!

Kelmendasi
09-18-2021, 11:25 PM
You might insist that no Albanian Vlachs were recorded as Arvanites but Malakasi are already good enough proof to show that things back than weren't as clear as we might want to be from today's perspective. Malakasi was obviously a Vlach name with Vlachs speakers of a village bearing the same name in the 19th century. This is already a strong proof that the Malakasi of Kantakouzenos weren't Albanians but Vlachs.
Their Albanian provenance rest only on the interpretation of some historians that since Losha was an Albanian, Malakasi must be too because Losha was their leader.

It's obvious the Albanian provenance isn't that strong nor it has strong enough arguments for it.

Also, the origin of Losha isn't that conclusive as you make it out to be. Some historians think he might have been Vlach instead. Croatian historian Milan Šufflay (1879–1931) spoke of an Albano-Aromanian symbiosis in the Pindus, and discussed the nationality of the Losha, Bua and Shpata. Again, his name might have Albanian etymology but Malakasis name is of Aromanian etymology.

Let's say we disagree on this one and no, I don't make all Arvanites of Vlach origin, I said some were of Vlach origin, that's all!
I am simply putting forth my interpretation of the bibliography and you are doing the same as you should, this is a forum after all. I personally share the same opinion as those such as Hammond who argued that there were two groups with this name, one Albanian (unified under Losha) and one Vlach, and I believe the bibliography/sources for this are very strong since they are some of the noteworthy few on the Malakasioi. I am open and very willing to read alternative works though. The bibliography referring to the Losha as Albanians are the most abundant and cited, of course there are alternate views (I am unaware of Šufflay supporting a Vlach origin, a citation/quotation would be very welcome) but in my opinion they are not as well cited for a reason since they do not have strong foundations. Everyone is free to draw their own conclusions however after reading the works available.

Aspar
09-19-2021, 12:42 AM
I am simply putting forth my interpretation of the bibliography and you are doing the same as you should, this is a forum after all. I personally share the same opinion as those such as Hammond who argued that there were two groups with this name, one Albanian (unified under Losha) and one Vlach, and I believe the bibliography/sources for this are very strong since they are some of the noteworthy few on the Malakasioi. I am open and very willing to read alternative works though. The bibliography referring to the Losha as Albanians are the most abundant and cited, of course there are alternate views (I am unaware of Šufflay supporting a Vlach origin, a citation/quotation would be very welcome) but in my opinion they are not as well cited for a reason since they do not have strong foundations. Everyone is free to draw their own conclusions however after reading the works available.

https://i.postimg.cc/m2DvZDC3/Arvanito-Vlach.png (https://postimages.org/)

From Šufflay's "Serbs and Albanians, their symbiosis in Medieval"

It's in Serbo-Croatian but Šufflay says that today's science has recognized Malakasi and Bua as Romanians even though Kantakouzenos wrongly called them Albanians which is very characteristic...

Exercitus
09-19-2021, 06:12 AM
Aspar,
if Sufflay or Hahn had the Ottoman Defters of the XV and XVI in their hands (Anthroponymy, Toponymy, Demography), i assure you, that you will not be here to ri-propose some rhetorical nonsense theories !! The Malakasi were Albanian Mallakastriotes (from that region we have also the toponym Krapsi ) from the ethnographic region of Mallakastra. Malakasa/Mallakese was also utilized as name/surname by the medieval Albanians, as in the case of Muzaka, Mataranga, Mazarak, Mazi, Losha etc together with Gjin, Gjon, Leka, Deda, Lika, Floka, Lumi etc No Vlach NEVER had such onomastics, Defters contain 'stubborn' facts, no place for nationalistic views here! The Vlach area of Pindo Mountains was ethnically mixed Vlach-Albanian during the XIV-XV centuries, the local Albanians such as the Malakasi were simply Vlachizated!!

Exercitus
09-19-2021, 06:26 AM
These might help:
Μιχάλης Κοκολάκης, Το ύστερο Γιαννιώτικο Πασαλίκι : χώρος, διοίκηση και πληθυσμός στην τουρκοκρατούμενη Ηπειρο (1820-1913)
σελίδα 345

Ο νοτιότερος ναχιγιές, η Τσαρκοβίστα, φιλοξενούσε έναν πληθυσμό κυρίως κτηνοτροφικό, σκορπισμένο σε 50 περίπου χωριά στις πλαγιές του Ολύτσικα και στις μικρές κοιλάδες του Ανω Αχέροντα·
η φτώχεια και η «αθλιότητα» που μάστιζαν αυτή την περιοχή, εν μέρει αλβανόφωνη, αποτελούν κοινό τόπο στις ελληνικές πηγές του 19ου αιώνα. Τέλος, το διπλανό Μαλακάσι συνδύαζε περιοχές με αντιφατικά γνωρίσματα: Το βορειοδυτικό του τμήμα αποτελούσε τη νοτιότερη και πλέον υπανάπτυκτη προέκταση του κάμπου των Ιωαννίνων στα ανατολικά, παράλληλα με τις κορυφογραμμές της Πίνδου, εκτεινόταν μια σειρά από μεγάλα και διεσπαρμένα κτηνοτροφικά χωριά, οι ρίζες των οποίων ανάγονται ίσως στις αλβανικές επιδρομές του 14ου 15ου αιώνα (Δεμάτι, Γότιστα, Προσγόλι, Κράψη)· νοτιότερα, τα βλαχόφωνα ελευθεροχώρια Συράκο και Καλαρίτες, που την εποχή του Αλή πασά θεωρούνταν εξίσου «κοσμοπολίτικα» με εκείνα του Ζαγορίου, είχαν, μετά την ολοκληρωτική καταστροφή του 1821, μεταπέσει περισσότερο στην κατηγορία του εποχιακού κτηνοτροφικού συνοικισμού, αν και στο Συράκο επιβίωνε ακόμη μία τοπική βιοτεχνία μάλλινων υφασμάτων.


page 345

The southernmost valley, Tsarkovista, hosted a predominantly livestock population, scattered in about 50 villages on the slopes of Olytsikas and in the small valleys of Ano Acheron;
The poverty and "misery" that plagued this area, partly Albanian-speaking, are commonplace in 19th-century Greek sources. Finally, the neighboring Malakassi combined areas with contradictory features: Its northwestern part was the southernmost and most underdeveloped extension of the plain of Ioannina to the east, along the ridges of Pindos, extended a series of large and scattered livestock Villages probably go back to the Albanian influx of the 14th-15th century (villages Demati, Gotista, Prosgoli, Krapsi); In 1821, it became more of a seasonal livestock settlement, although another local woolen cloth factory survived in Syrrako.

Giuseppe Valentini, "Sviluppi Onomastico-Toponomastici Tribali delle Comunitą Albanesi in Sicilia."

https://i.imgur.com/uvi641W.jpg


https://i.imgur.com/Osg6Qfj.jpg



Η απογραφή των Κραβάρων στο οθωμανικό φορολογικό κατάστιχο ΜΜ10 (1454-1455)’, Ναυπακτιακά 15 (2007-2009), 415-561.



https://i.imgur.com/0wxVbfK.jpg

Pindo Vlach region, Albanian Toponyms:

https://i.imgur.com/t2QCnEI.jpg

Exercitus
09-19-2021, 06:44 AM
The Villages of Krapsi, Varibobi, Floqi etc today are located in the 'Mallakastra e bute' ethnographic area, instead Hekali, Gjerbes, Damezi etc are located in the 'Mallakastra e eger' area, or today Mallakastėr District (as you might notice the wellknown Toponymy of this area!):

https://i.imgur.com/k891nPl.jpg

Aspar
09-19-2021, 01:19 PM
Vlachs did have Albanian names, as well as Slavic names as well as Greek names in the past and now. No serious researcher will make a conclusion about an ethno-linguistic group based solely on names. My name is of Greek origin but I am not a Greek, neither was Skenderbeg's father a Slav just because his name was Ivan.

By the way, my surname can only be explained with the Albanian and Aromanian language however the base of the word is of Albanian origin, meaning grandma and borrowed in the Aromanian(grandpa) and yet, my paternal lineage comes from a Meglen Vlach village.

I only wanted to ask our Greek fellow members here about any Vlach presence in the Peloponnese, that's all. I don't want to derail this thread anymore as it's not fair towards our Greek fellows here so I will not reply anymore.

Exercitus
09-19-2021, 02:34 PM
....No serious researcher will make a conclusion about an ethno-linguistic group based solely on names.....


Aspar,
are you aware about the incorrectness of your statement !?
So you are saying that these well-known Ottomanologists experts in Defterology (specifically in onomastic issues!): Inalcik, Buharaja, Delibasa, Handzic, Arikan, Kayapinar, Altug, Pulaha, Ternava, Katic, Amedoski, Gjorgiev, Sokoloski, Stojanovski, Liakopoulos, Kotzageorgios etc etc are not serious !?
There is a specific field in Defterology that studies medieval 'Folk Anthroponymy', now you can establish with high precisness the ethnic composition of a settlment during the XV-XVI centuries solely by judging the typical folk anthroponymy. Vlach had typical Vlachic folk anthroponymy, South Slavs had typical folk anthroponymy, Albanians/Arvanites had typical folk anthroponymy, a man named: Malakas Muzaka, living in an albanophone settlment could NEVER be Vlach, a man named: Radul Lupu, living in a vlachophone settlment, could NEVER be Albanian, a man named: Dabzhiv Stoyanov, living in a south slavic settlment, could NEVER be Greek !!

Do you undertand the basics of such methodology !?

https://i.imgur.com/wQAeD80.jpeg

dosas
09-19-2021, 02:40 PM
Vlachs did have Albanian names, as well as Slavic names as well as Greek names in the past and now. No serious researcher will make a conclusion about an ethno-linguistic group based solely on names. My name is of Greek origin but I am not a Greek, neither was Skenderbeg's father a Slav just because his name was Ivan.



Since I know you study a lot, this (https://www.protothema.gr/stories/article/778845/karagounides-mia-xehoristi-plithusmiaki-omada-tis-elladas/)is another article from the same paper about the Karagkouni of Thessaly, which is another Thessalian group that is usually present in Vlach gatherings and festivals (afaik). The reason I got interested in them is because my grand-dad's original last name in Thrace was of Karagkouni origin.

Again, use Chrome with translate to get the gist (Greek to English translation is pretty good).

Archetype0ne
09-19-2021, 10:22 PM
Vlachs did have Albanian names, as well as Slavic names as well as Greek names in the past and now. No serious researcher will make a conclusion about an ethno-linguistic group based solely on names. My name is of Greek origin but I am not a Greek, neither was Skenderbeg's father a Slav just because his name was Ivan.

By the way, my surname can only be explained with the Albanian and Aromanian language however the base of the word is of Albanian origin, meaning grandma and borrowed in the Aromanian(grandpa) and yet, my paternal lineage comes from a Meglen Vlach village.

I only wanted to ask our Greek fellow members here about any Vlach presence in the Peloponnese, that's all. I don't want to derail this thread anymore as it's not fair towards our Greek fellows here so I will not reply anymore.

I wanted to step in much earlier. And point out this is a thread about Greeks. Like... yesterday. But thought this was going somewhere.
Apsar what happened to you man, from being a beacon of common sense, to now claiming Gjon was called Ivan, and that Bua of all things are Romanian?


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bua_(tribe)

God forbid there was Albanians in Albania in the middle ages, or any figure was Albanian.

If you wanted to claim anyone was a Vlach you would have a better chance with the Frasheris... But YDNA nuked that theory out of the water.

PS: No need to show me Serbian Orthodox Church records, with baptism name Ivan, that's a common thing. And as usual, just an Albanian using organized religion for political purposes. That happened quite a bit.

If you want to take this over PMs it would be a better idea, might even share some recent anecdotes that left me baffled as of late, which are a bit more personal.

Archetype0ne
09-19-2021, 10:31 PM
Since I know you study a lot, this (https://www.protothema.gr/stories/article/778845/karagounides-mia-xehoristi-plithusmiaki-omada-tis-elladas/)is another article from the same paper about the Karagkouni of Thessaly, which is another Thessalian group that is usually present in Vlach gatherings and festivals (afaik). The reason I got interested in them is because my grand-dad's original last name in Thrace was of Karagkouni origin.

Again, use Chrome with translate to get the gist (Greek to English translation is pretty good).

Very interesting.
It amazes me how there might be some cultural continuity, with such artefacts as the head coins, going back to the BA, connecting areas such as Western Balkans, Bulgaria, and even Troy.

https://i1.prth.gr/images/w880/files/2018-04-15/ch/karagouna1.jpg
^From the article you shared.

https://images.graph.cool/v1/cj6c28vh912680101ozc2paxj/cjgv1uj7k0d7n0189bvovv5z0/0x0:1600x831/960x960/priams_treasure.jpg

Schiemanns wife wearing pieces from treasure supposedly found in Troy.

eastara
09-20-2021, 03:11 AM
Very interesting.
It amazes me how there might be some cultural continuity, with such artefacts as the head coins, going back to the BA, connecting areas such as Western Balkans, Bulgaria, and even Troy.

https://i1.prth.gr/images/w880/files/2018-04-15/ch/karagouna1.jpg
^From the article you shared.

https://images.graph.cool/v1/cj6c28vh912680101ozc2paxj/cjgv1uj7k0d7n0189bvovv5z0/0x0:1600x831/960x960/priams_treasure.jpg

Schiemanns wife wearing pieces from treasure supposedly found in Troy.

There is a strong suspicion that the gold Troy jewels were fake, made somewhere in Greece according to the fashion of the day. Schliemann was not happy that no gold and other treasures was found in Troy and that is what catches the public interest.
Due to their disappearance from the German museum after WWII no test were made of their authenticity. They only recently surfaced in the secret Russian vaults.

Pleiades
09-23-2021, 10:27 AM
https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y82533/

My haplogroup on yfull.

dosas
09-23-2021, 11:15 AM
https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y82533/

My haplogroup on yfull.


Congrats on your quite recent TMRCA (assuming you are teh GRC-12), it looks like you all share paternal ancestry circa the 1420s?

It says you are from Arcadia? Did you contact the other members of your clade? Maybe the Albanian members here can tell us about this clade.

Pleiades
09-23-2021, 11:25 AM
Congrats on your quite recent TMRCA (assuming you are teh GRC-12), it looks like you all share paternal ancestry circa the 1420s?

It says you are from Arcadia? Did you contact the other members of your clade? Maybe the Albanian members here can tell us about this clade.

I'm not the arcadian. I'm under y106260

Kelmendasi
09-24-2021, 11:20 AM
https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y82533/

My haplogroup on yfull.
Congrats on the result!

J2b-Y82533 as a whole seems to be most diverse in Albanians and also most prevalent in Albanian-speaking territories. Y82533>FT133538 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-FT133538/) is represented on Yfull by three Albanian samples and a Greek from Arcadia in the central Peloponnese, the Albanians are descended from the Gruda (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gruda_(tribe)) tribe in eastern Montenegro. The distribution and TMRCA for this cluster suggests a medieval arrival in the case of the Greek.

As for Y82533>Y106260 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y106260/), where you come under, it is rather interesting. Sample YF08113 under Y106260>Y82978 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y82978*/) is not actually from Bulgaria but rather from the Golloborda (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gollobord%C3%AB) ethno-geographic region of eastern Albania. This region has a mixed population of Muslim Albanians and Slavic-speakers (divided into Muslims and Orthodox Christians) who traditionally speak a dialect belonging to the Eastern South Slavic continuum but are also bilingual in Albanian. Due to issues of politics and identity a number of these Slavic-speakers (especially the Orthodox Christians) have started identifying as Macedonians or Bulgarians though the larger portion do not tend to identify as such but rather use different ethnonyms or identify as Albanians. From what I have understood this cluster is one of the most dominant in the region and is also present in ethnic Albanians. Y106260>Y82978>CTS8786 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-CTS8786/) is the cluster of the Albanian Shkreli (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shkreli_(tribe)) tribe in Malėsia e Madhe (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mal%C3%ABsia), the Bosniak samples below under CTS8786>FT157333 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-FT157333/) are also descended from this tribe having arrived to Sandžak from Rugova in Kosovo as Albanian-speakers, which is why one of the samples places Peja as their place of origin.

Trojet
09-24-2021, 12:00 PM
https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y82533/

My haplogroup on yfull.


From eastern Attica, but I am quite mixed.

Maternal grandmother spoke vlachika. Maternal grandfather has a pure dinaric phenotype and is tall, but he identifies as greek and has a greek surname.
My paternal side has some arvanite surnames and my grandparents often spoke arvanitika. My paternal grandmother had some ancestry from Andros, while my paternal grandpa claimed his family was originally from Smyrna that migrated here in the early 1800s.

Congrats on your result!

After reading one of your earlier posts, I think your result makes a lot of sense.

Some time ago, we published a post about J-Y82533 over at Gjenetika Shqiptare: http://www.gjenetika.com/j-y23094y82533/

Sorcelow
09-24-2021, 06:12 PM
Does anyone have any idea why the Thessalian average (N=13), when modeled using modern Dodecanesians, Mycenaeans/Emporiotes, the BGR_IA/Thaco-Cimmerian MJ12 samples, and modern Slavs, shows significantly more Balkan_IA ancestry than their neighbors? This is something that can also be seen on a PCA, the Thessalians don't form a perfect cline between the Peloponnesians and Macedonians, rather, they veer off into the left a bit, towards the IA Balkans samples. I'm not sure if medieval incursions into the area from more northerly areas of the Balkans account for it, because the Albanian and North Macedonian averages show less of this type of ancestry. Do Thessalians simply harbor more of this type of ancestry than their neighbors, or am I reading too much into this?


Target: Greek_Thessaly(N=13)
Distance: 0.1792% / 0.00179227
30.6 Greek_Dodecanese
29.6 Polish+Ukrainian
20.6 Greek_LBA
19.2 Balkans_IA

Target: North_Macedonian(N=16)
Distance: 0.1645% / 0.00164462
41.0 Polish+Ukrainian
26.2 Greek_LBA
19.4 Greek_Dodecanese
13.4 Balkans_IA

Target: Albanian(N=18)
Distance: 0.4774% / 0.00477393
39.0 Greek_LBA
34.2 Polish+Ukrainian
18.6 Greek_Dodecanese
8.2 Balkans_IA

Target: Greek_Peloponnese(N=27)
Distance: 0.2480% / 0.00248000
42.8 Greek_Dodecanese
27.2 Polish+Ukrainian
27.0 Greek_LBA
3.0 Balkans_IA

dosas
09-24-2021, 07:37 PM
The Greek_Thessaly samples (and all GreeceNE ones, for that matter) are misnamed.

They are from Macedonia, they were labelled as such by some old AG users before the G25 dataset was edited.

User Kaspias tracked them down and talked to one of the authors on twitter, where his was informed that were sampled from the "north of Thessaloniki", after Pontics were removed from the total.

Thessaly was apparently picked for those particular three as it was the 'middle point'.

He posted this a while back but he was largely ignored.

DFSTFD
09-24-2021, 08:43 PM
The Greek_Thessaly samples (and all GreeceNE ones, for that matter) are misnamed.

They are from Macedonia, they were labelled as such by some old AG users before the G25 dataset was edited.

User Kaspias tracked them down and talked to one of the authors on twitter, where his was informed that were sampled from the "north of Thessaloniki", after Pontics were removed from the total.

Thessaly was apparently picked for those particular three as it was the 'middle point'.

He posted this a while back but he was largely ignored.

That's interesting info. A European PCA (https://imgur.com/a/44Apo3c). The smaller groups are the NE ones, the bigger the non-NE ones. They seem to have some differences on average with the bigger groups (or capture less variation like in the Peloponnese case). There doesn't seem to be anything major as long as they're mainland Greek samples at least, though it'd be unfortunate if they misdirect about regional averages to an extent.

Does your caveat concern the new 10 non-NE Thessalian samples too or are those confirmed to be Thessalian? The NE Thessaly samples don't look too out of place if the others are Thessalian at least but something to keep in mind for sure. "Midpoint therefore Thessalian" isn't the most robust argument. I'll say though that mainland Greeks seem to be relatively homogeneous overall so these sorts of misidentifications might not hurt the general idea too much at least.


Does anyone have any idea why the Thessalian average (N=13), when modeled using modern Dodecanesians, Mycenaeans/Emporiotes, the BGR_IA/Thaco-Cimmerian MJ12 samples, and modern Slavs, shows significantly more Balkan_IA ancestry than their neighbors? This is something that can also be seen on a PCA, the Thessalians don't form a perfect cline between the Peloponnesians and Macedonians, rather, they veer off into the left a bit, towards the IA Balkans samples. I'm not sure if medieval incursions into the area from more northerly areas of the Balkans account for it, because the Albanian and North Macedonian averages show less of this type of ancestry. Do Thessalians simply harbor more of this type of ancestry than their neighbors, or am I reading too much into this?[/B]

The previous 3-person Greek_Thessaly sample was even more western on average. With the addition of the 10 samples Thessaly is still somewhat more "western" but its general position/makeup now doesn't seem too weird compared to Macedonia and the Peloponnese. GreekThessaly6 has an interesting, particularly "northwestern" position and you can see how much he veers off the rest of the group.

Based on the results and PCA position, we could suppose that Thessaly preserved somewhat more IA-related ancestry compared to Macedonia which was somewhat more impacted by migrations from the northeast and east (there's a bit like that potentially going on with Ghegs and Tosks in the case of Albania too, for example) but it's also not a huge difference to interpret too clearly I think.

dosas
09-24-2021, 08:55 PM
Ι don't know anything about the new ones, I just remembered that tidbit about the GreeceNE samples.

Michalis Moriopoulos
09-24-2021, 10:49 PM
The Greek_Thessaly samples (and all GreeceNE ones, for that matter) are misnamed.

They are from Macedonia, they were labelled as such by some old AG users before the G25 dataset was edited.

User Kaspias tracked them down and talked to one of the authors on twitter, where his was informed that were sampled from the "north of Thessaloniki", after Pontics were removed from the total.

Thessaly was apparently picked for those particular three as it was the 'middle point'.

He posted this a while back but he was largely ignored.

That's interesting. I wonder if that goes for the three "Peloponnesians" with the NE label too. I have those labelled Peloponnese B because of their outlying East Med shift. I'll reach out to Kaspias and see if he remembers.

EDIT: I found the thread on Apricity:



Last year I asked Davidski the samples he used for Greek_Thessaly in Eurogenes K13. He sent, then I found the article he took these samples from, but couldn't find information on where they are from. (supposed to be Thessaly) Then asked Davidski "there is no information about them, why you named it as Thessaly? he replied Thessaly is the middle point.

Then I followed the author of the article on Twitter. Asked her where samples are actually from, she said samples were from North of Thessaloniki, we separated the outliers(Pontians) and these were remnants. These samples were labeled as GreeceNE.

dosas
09-25-2021, 05:15 AM
They are probably from Drama/Kavala (E. Macedonia is northeast of Thessaloniki) and Thrace. Those places had Vlachs, albeit not many, so the Thessaly thing wouldn't be outlandish.

Better just use the Stamatoyanopoulos' stuff, imo, since they are probably sampled more carefully.

Pleiades
09-25-2021, 10:44 AM
Congrats on the result!

J2b-Y82533 as a whole seems to be most diverse in Albanians and also most prevalent in Albanian-speaking territories. Y82533>FT133538 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-FT133538/) is represented on Yfull by three Albanian samples and a Greek from Arcadia in the central Peloponnese, the Albanians are descended from the Gruda (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gruda_(tribe)) tribe in eastern Montenegro. The distribution and TMRCA for this cluster suggests a medieval arrival in the case of the Greek.

As for Y82533>Y106260 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y106260/), where you come under, it is rather interesting. Sample YF08113 under Y106260>Y82978 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y82978*/) is not actually from Bulgaria but rather from the Golloborda (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gollobord%C3%AB) ethno-geographic region of eastern Albania. This region has a mixed population of Muslim Albanians and Slavic-speakers (divided into Muslims and Orthodox Christians) who traditionally speak a dialect belonging to the Eastern South Slavic continuum but are also bilingual in Albanian. Due to issues of politics and identity a number of these Slavic-speakers (especially the Orthodox Christians) have started identifying as Macedonians or Bulgarians though the larger portion do not tend to identify as such but rather use different ethnonyms or identify as Albanians. From what I have understood this cluster is one of the most dominant in the region and is also present in ethnic Albanians. Y106260>Y82978>CTS8786 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-CTS8786/) is the cluster of the Albanian Shkreli (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shkreli_(tribe)) tribe in Malėsia e Madhe (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mal%C3%ABsia), the Bosniak samples below under CTS8786>FT157333 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-FT157333/) are also descended from this tribe having arrived to Sandžak from Rugova in Kosovo as Albanian-speakers, which is why one of the samples places Peja as their place of origin.

One of the matches I share most DNA with on Myheritage is a Montenegrin btw.

Shared DNA: 0.7(49.9 cM)
Shared segments: 3
Largest segment: 29.9‎ cM