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23abc
11-05-2020, 06:44 PM
I opened this thread for discussion about Greeks. I noticed that there are a few threads around about specific topics about Greeks, but not one which is filled with miscellaneous ones. Feel free to post anything about Greeks in here.



I will start in this first post by posting some things which I found interesting.

There is a little known feature on vahaduo (https://vahaduo.github.io/vahaduo/) that I learnt about recently. The distance tab contains modes which allow direct comparison of two target samples. The results of these modes can provide interesting insight into the differences between two target samples in a nice format.

Let us take a look at Turkish_Trabzon vs. Armenian_Hemsheni.

https://imgur.com/JqqCAg6.png

What this output seems to tell me is that there are two main reasons why they are not exactly identical:

Pontians share more of some ancestral component which is also found in Empuries, Calabrians, other Greeks and even Sicily_LBA. I wonder what that component is? ;)
Pontians share less of some ancestral component which is found in the ancient Caucasus populations and Georgian Imer.

A reasonable explanation for these two trends is that Pontians and Hemsheni are nearly identical except the former clearly has more ancient Greek admixture, most likely similar to that of the Empuries sample.

How about Greek_Kos vs. Greek_Crete?

https://imgur.com/A0WBy1z.png

Like last time, it's showing us the two main reasons why they are different:

Greeks from Kos have more of an affinity to ancient Anatolians and modern Levantines than Cretans.
Cretans have more affinity to populations with Slavo-baltic admixture than Greeks from Kos.

These trends are obviously the result of the Slavic migrations into the Balkans having less of an impact into the Dodecanese. Possibly some recent Anatolian movement towards the Dodecanese too, of course, but can be explained by Dodecanese always having more Anatolian than the rest of Greece.

Finally, let us take a look at myself compared to Greek_Kos.

https://imgur.com/gzrDOtK.png

In this case, it is a bit harder to understand the output but here are my thoughts on it. Firstly, I have additional Iranian/Caucasus admixture from the unknown ancestry of my mother. This causes me to have more affinity towards Iran/Maykop than Kos and also reduces my Neolithic Farmer admixture, making me more distant to ancient Europeans like Mycenaeans and Sardinians compared to Kos.

Actually, in cases like this, where it may be harder to understand what's happening, there's another mode worth exploring. It compares using a ratio instead of an absolute difference.

https://imgur.com/BdPd2su.png

So compared to Kos, the main difference is indeed that I share some sort of ancestry found in Eastern Anatolia and less to the East Med.



Hopefully you didn't find reading this a complete waste of time. You can post your thoughts here, or show your own examples and give your own interpretation to the output. Or you can post about something else, as long as it is in some way related to Greeks.

dosas
11-05-2020, 07:22 PM
41011

Greek Trabzon VS Turkish Trabzon: the first is looking towards the Caucausus, the second towards the East Med, very interesting little fact that also correlates to known historical ethnographic sources, Eastern Pontus Greek were mainly a mountainous folk, is this a possible explanation to their Caucasian shift?

oz
11-05-2020, 08:39 PM
This might be off topic because it's not about genetics. Our name for you "Grk" is like the first part of the word "grkljan" or "grlo" which means throat. I wonder if there's something to that? Like the opposite of how we call Germans "Njemci" which means mute/can't speak/dumb, which is pretty funny that we still call them that to this day.

dosas
11-05-2020, 09:05 PM
This might be off topic because it's not about genetics. Our name for you "Grk" is like the first part of the word "grkljan" or "grlo" which means throat. I wonder if there's something to that? Like the opposite of how we call Germans "Njemci" which means mute/can't speak/dumb, which is pretty funny that we still call them that to this day.


Many vowels in the language phonetics, maybe?

oz
11-05-2020, 10:56 PM
Many vowels in the language phonetics, maybe?

I don't know if it's only coincidental. For example "tur" is one of our words for butt... I doubt we got that from the word Turk lol. The word "fin" means nice, good, fine, does it have a connection with Fins who we call Finci? I just wonder if these linguistic coincidences actually mean anything. Maybe sometimes they do and sometimes they don't.

dosas
11-06-2020, 07:14 AM
Using the ancients list and comparing Greek and Turkish Trabzon.

41013


Greek Trabzon looks Caucasian shifted, compared to its counterpart, whereas Turkish Trabzon looks, again, like it's shifting towards the Levant.

Sorcelow
11-06-2020, 03:25 PM
As you mentioned, Greeks from Kos show a strong genetic connection to BA Anatolian groups. In my opinion, it's likely that the Aegean islands always formed the bridge between Anatolian and Mycenaean like populations. Both are pretty close to each-other anyway, with the former having a higher share of CHG/IranN ancestry.

Target: Greek_Kos

Distance: 0.7373% / 0.00737258
33.6 TUR_Isparta_EBA
27.2 Levant_Beirut_ERoman
17.4 Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2
16.4 Yamnaya_BGR
5.4 HUN_Avar_Szolad

It would be interesting to see LBA/IA genomes from the Aegean. I hope the new paper on Greek genetics that people have been talking about is able to shed light on this region.

dosas
11-06-2020, 04:08 PM
Btw, former Greek_Thrace gets its best fit with Yamnaya_BGR (scaled), among all other possible combos I've tried.

Target: Greek_Thrace_scaled
Distance: 3.1731% / 0.03173115
62.2 Yamnaya_BGR
34.4 TUR_Barcin_N
1.4 Papuan
1.2 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
0.6 WHG
0.2 RUS_Devils_Gate_Cave_N

lacreme
11-06-2020, 10:33 PM
I compared my friend with his closest population which is Greek Izmir. What about him ? I suppose more Iran+Caucasus and less East Med+balkan compared to it ?

Distance ratio: ( AC / BC ) ↑
A: Chris_scaled
B: Greek_Izmir
C: ↴
0.95267289 ARM_Areni_C
0.96091927 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_IA
0.96116089 Iranian_Zoroastrian
0.96523366 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_Historic
0.96534791 UZB_Sappali_Tepe_BA_o
0.96553618 Kurdish
0.96560452 RUS_Maykop
0.96572360 Ezid
0.96599409 Iranian_Mazandarani
0.96714648 Roma_Porto
0.96801426 TKM_Gonur3_BA
0.96866805 Iranian_Fars
0.96877455 Iranian_Lor
0.96920678 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_BA
0.96963681 Levant_Megiddo_MLBA_o1
0.97047172 Parsi_Pakistan
0.97118610 Tajik_Yagnobi
0.97155562 Parsi_India
0.97175016 ARM_LBA
0.97178703 Iranian_Bandari
0.97185705 IRN_Hasanlu_IA
0.97193822 Roma_Granada
0.97272040 UZB_Bustan_BA
0.97300703 Balochi
0.97328257 Roma_Barcelona


Distance ratio: ( AC / BC ) ↓
A: Chris_scaled
B: Greek_Izmir
C: ↴
1.77741008 Greek_Peloponnese
1.44691341 Italian_Basilicata
1.41519340 Italian_Molise
1.34984581 IND_Roopkund_B
1.31209575 Italian_Apulia
1.25362208 Italian_Abruzzo
1.24134222 ITA_Tivoli_Renaissance
1.21844960 ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity
1.19736035 Italian_Campania
1.18829161 ITA_Prenestini_tribe_IA_o
1.17815614 Italian_Marche
1.16016036 Sicilian_East
1.15461051 VK2020_ITA_Foggia_MA
1.15392653 Albanian
1.14112336 Italian_Lazio
1.14023527 Greek_Central_Macedonia
1.13925336 Italian_Calabria
1.13642758 ITA_Rome_MA
1.13148267 Italian_Umbria
1.12940633 Ashkenazi_Belarussia
1.11624683 BGR_IA
1.10928987 Italian_Tuscany
1.10551542 Greek_Thessaly
1.09321539 ITA_Collegno_MA_o1
1.08164984 Greek_Kos

Johnny ola
11-06-2020, 10:41 PM
Good job mate.Dosas helped me as well with mines results.They making sense in everything.In comparison with my mother's results, is that i am more med and levant shifted(east med) while my mother is clearly more caucasus.When you delete the Caucasus input from the Greek_Trabzon(witch is Georgian like) you get something like Greek Central Anatolia or Greek_Kos/Crete.Its obvious that there is a cline from Trabzon/Pontus that goes to the islands witch seems associated with BA Anatolia.I am not sure if the east med pull in the Trabzon is Greek or Anatolian but it is very close with Kos/Crete etc.It is probably because these islands received a gene flow from west asia at some time.We should wait for samples thought,but even mainland Greeks if you delete their Slavic/Balkanic infleunce they get something like BA(not much) but still it is there.

dosas
11-06-2020, 10:46 PM
I compared my friend with his closest population which is Greek Izmir. What about him ? I suppose more Iran+Caucasus and less East Med+balkan compared to it ?


Yes. Your assessment looks correct to me.

Greekscholar
11-06-2020, 11:39 PM
snip

Oh, wow. This is a really cool feature. Me compared to my Yia Yia. Then me compared to 23abc. I don't think we see anything here we don't already know through models and PCAs, but I am going to keep digging.

Distance difference: ( AC - BC ) ↑
A: GS_family(Fourni/Ikaria/Samos):GS(Fourni/Ikaria/Samos)
B: GS_family(Fourni/Ikaria/Samos):YiaYia(Fourni/Ikaria)
C: ↴
-0.00723405 Sicilian_East
-0.00666777 Greek_Crete
-0.00647798 Karaite_Egypt
-0.00633906 Sephardic_Jew
-0.00598865 Ashkenazi_Poland
-0.00570193 Italian_Apulia
-0.00567058 Samaritan
-0.00531012 Italian_Jew
-0.00492434 Ashkenazi_Ukraine
-0.00482581 Syrian_Jew
-0.00471066 Romaniote_Jew
-0.00463206 Italian_Calabria
-0.00416599 Italian_Campania
-0.00415187 Greek_Trabzon
-0.00398052 Yemenite_Jew
-0.00388130 Tunisian_Jew
-0.00382595 Italian_Molise
-0.00371744 Georgian_Imer
-0.00367726 Cypriot
-0.00358346 Yemenite_Ma'rib
-0.00357327 Italian_Basilicata
-0.00356652 Iraqi_Jew
-0.00352834 Italian_Marche
-0.00351541 Turkish_Trabzon
-0.00351341 Italian_Liguria


Distance difference: ( AC - BC ) ↓
A: GS_family(Fourni/Ikaria/Samos):GS(Fourni/Ikaria/Samos)
B: GS_family(Fourni/Ikaria/Samos):YiaYia(Fourni/Ikaria)
C: ↴
0.00679145 Todzin
0.00655801 Australian
0.00655410 Spanish_Soria
0.00631979 Yakut
0.00627518 Shor_Khakassia
0.00627042 Shor_Mountain
0.00626638 Sakha
0.00623529 Buryat
0.00623330 Khakass_Kachins
0.00615635 Tuvinian
0.00615457 Nasoi
0.00614553 Mogush
0.00613714 Shor
0.00609296 Altaian
0.00603222 Agta
0.00599915 Tubalar
0.00596948 Kosipe
0.00589983 Khakass
0.00588497 Evenk
0.00587190 Ket
0.00587044 Khamnegan
0.00586642 Papuan
0.00586195 Dolgan
0.00579917 Kalmyk
0.00579365 Koinanbe

Distance difference: ( AC - BC ) ↑
A: 23abc_scaled(Kalymnos)
B: GS_family(Fourni/Ikaria/Samos):GS(Fourni/Ikaria/Samos)
C: ↴
-0.02001270 Armenian
-0.01981520 Iranian_Jew
-0.01969233 Assyrian
-0.01941742 Iraqi_Jew
-0.01871591 Iranian_Mazandarani
-0.01840304 Georgian_Jew
-0.01836897 Iranian_Lor
-0.01805685 Kurdish
-0.01766982 Mountain_Jew_Chechnya
-0.01728982 Ezid
-0.01723118 Turkish_Trabzon
-0.01721109 Iranian_Zoroastrian
-0.01699830 Greek_Trabzon
-0.01677828 Armenian_Hemsheni
-0.01648403 Talysh_Azerbaijan
-0.01608042 Iranian_Fars
-0.01580991 Iranian_Seyyed
-0.01568865 Druze
-0.01561685 Georgian_Imer
-0.01560693 Iranian_Bandari
-0.01560555 Lebanese_Druze
-0.01556153 Turkish_East
-0.01512342 Azeri_Turkey
-0.01508747 Georgian_Laz
-0.01508442 Makrani


Distance difference: ( AC - BC ) ↓
A: 23abc_scaled(Kalymnos)
B: GS_family(Fourni/Ikaria/Samos):GS(Fourni/Ikaria/Samos)
C: ↴
0.01838475 Albanian
0.01835859 Greek_Central_Macedonia
0.01689442 Cossack_Kuban
0.01687839 Spanish_La_Rioja
0.01682752 Greek_Peloponnese
0.01676428 Italian_Northeast
0.01656645 Montenegrin
0.01654455 Macedonian
0.01652673 Serbian
0.01646890 Swiss_Italian
0.01633967 Romanian
0.01632575 Italian_Bergamo
0.01630206 Bulgarian
0.01597276 French_Corsica
0.01596949 Italian_Veneto
0.01573420 Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige
0.01573077 Slovakian
0.01565080 Greek_Izmir
0.01560706 Spanish_Castello
0.01559894 Moldovan
0.01558585 Spanish_Murcia
0.01555491 Sorb_Niederlausitz
0.01552921 Spanish_Peri-Barcelona
0.01548445 Bosnian
0.01539134 Italian_Piedmont

Greekscholar
11-07-2020, 02:50 PM
This tool is very useful. Here is me compared to Smyrna and other Greeks close to Smyrna on the PCA. The "Levant shift" is obvious to see compared to other Greeks, and the lack of West Asian pops out as well. Does anyone have any insight into what they see? My immediate family are all showing very similar results too. Since this is a discussion thread, does anyone think these results are do to a different type of ancestry than my family tree? Or is this just the variation and/or genetic drift that is explained by founder effects and small islands?



Distance to: GS_family(Fourni/Ikaria/Samos):GS(Fourni/Ikaria/Samos)
0.02360798 Italian_Basilicata
0.02387316 Greek_Smyrna
0.02491996 Italian_Apulia
0.02492723 Italian_Calabria
0.02497585 Italian_Campania
0.02553121 Greek_Crete
0.02863011 Italian_Abruzzo
0.02914388 Italian_Molise
0.02985036 Chris_scaled(Peloponnese/Crete/AsiaMinor)
0.02999588 Sicilian_East
0.03085692 Greek_Peloponnese
0.03141935 Greek_Kos
0.03183326 Ashkenazi_Poland
0.03193670 Ashkenazi_Germany
0.03255776 Ashkenazi_Belarussia
0.03344804 Ashkenazi_Lithuania
0.03363528 Ashkenazi_Russia
0.03403772 Ashkenazi_Ukraine
0.03503283 Italian_Lazio
0.03558961 Maltese
0.03641643 Sicilian_West
0.03701568 Italian_Jew
0.03829595 Italian_Marche
0.03992278 Italian_Umbria
0.04302454 Sephardic_Jew



Distance difference: ( AC - BC ) ↑
A: GS_family(Fourni/Ikaria/Samos):GS(Fourni/Ikaria/Samos)
B: Greek_Smyrna
C: ↴
-0.01159088 Yemenite_Ma'rib
-0.01142980 Yemenite_Al_Jawf
-0.01142467 BedouinB
-0.01130486 Saudi
-0.01125943 Yemenite_Mahra
-0.01123603 Samaritan
-0.01119978 Yemenite_Jew
-0.01111270 Yemenite_Dhamar
-0.01010420 Yemenite_Amran
-0.01007594 Yemenite_Al_Bayda
-0.00976096 Tunisian_Jew
-0.00922355 Lebanese_Christian
-0.00891666 Karaite_Egypt
-0.00884465 Palestinian_Beit_Sahour
-0.00808194 BedouinA
-0.00807893 Romaniote_Jew
-0.00802137 Egyptian
-0.00794693 Libyan_Jew
-0.00788686 Palestinian
-0.00779579 Cypriot
-0.00746223 Berber_Tunisia_Sen
-0.00728561 Libyan
-0.00727677 Berber_Tunisia_Chen
-0.00703648 Italian_Jew
-0.00694809 Jordanian


Distance difference: ( AC - BC ) ↓
A: GS_family(Fourni/Ikaria/Samos):GS(Fourni/Ikaria/Samos)
B: Greek_Smyrna
C: ↴
0.01853767 Greek_Peloponnese
0.01580416 Greek_Thessaly
0.01511104 French_Seine-Maritime
0.01463720 Orcadian
0.01461115 Irish
0.01460037 Swiss_German
0.01453453 Scottish
0.01446627 Welsh
0.01445450 Greek_Central_Macedonia
0.01442293 Italian_Tuscany
0.01438929 Afrikaner
0.01434946 Belgian
0.01433470 Shetlandic
0.01431915 French_Brittany
0.01430684 Albanian
0.01429889 Italian_Umbria
0.01426704 English
0.01425903 French_Paris
0.01425563 Norwegian
0.01422497 Dutch
0.01421034 Gagauz
0.01420228 French_Nord
0.01419975 Swiss_French
0.01406719 English_Cornwall
0.01404262 Italian_Aosta_Valley


Distance difference: ( AC - BC ) ↑
A: GS_family(Fourni/Ikaria/Samos):GS(Fourni/Ikaria/Samos)
B: Chris_scaled(Peloponnese/Crete/AsiaMinor)
C: ↴
-0.01407395 Yemenite_Ma'rib
-0.01395360 Yemenite_Mahra
-0.01389011 BedouinB
-0.01374379 Yemenite_Al_Jawf
-0.01373758 Yemenite_Jew
-0.01371307 Saudi
-0.01366265 Yemenite_Dhamar
-0.01249480 Yemenite_Al_Bayda
-0.01249182 Samaritan
-0.01204439 Yemenite_Amran
-0.01049150 Romaniote_Jew
-0.01044886 Tunisian_Jew
-0.00973745 Palestinian_Beit_Sahour
-0.00973585 Lebanese_Christian
-0.00949312 BedouinA
-0.00940445 Egyptian
-0.00938416 Palestinian
-0.00916363 Italian_Jew
-0.00867280 Libyan_Jew
-0.00860416 Cypriot
-0.00851084 Libyan
-0.00829265 Karaite_Egypt
-0.00806419 Jordanian
-0.00799535 Berber_Tunisia_Sen
-0.00727682 Berber_Tunisia_Chen


Distance difference: ( AC - BC ) ↓
A: GS_family(Fourni/Ikaria/Samos):GS(Fourni/Ikaria/Samos)
B: Chris_scaled(Peloponnese/Crete/AsiaMinor)
C: ↴
0.01667446 Tajik_Rushan
0.01643148 Jatt_Pathak
0.01630554 Ror
0.01601702 Tajik_Ishkashim
0.01598852 Tajik_Yagnobi
0.01583115 Tajik_Shugnan
0.01579844 Kalash
0.01563888 Roma_Barcelona
0.01559432 Punjabi_Jatt
0.01501766 Uthmankhel
0.01498691 Yusufzai
0.01496287 Tarkalani
0.01495056 Kho_Singanali
0.01478537 Pashtun
0.01477900 Irish
0.01472671 Khatri
0.01472397 French_Seine-Maritime
0.01462886 Kamboj
0.01459071 Gujar_Pakistan
0.01458098 Orcadian
0.01450775 Darginian
0.01447309 Kashmiri_Pandit
0.01445080 Brahmin_Uttar_Pradesh
0.01437698 Kohistani
0.01437370 Scottish


Distance difference: ( AC - BC ) ↑
A: GS_family(Fourni/Ikaria/Samos):GS(Fourni/Ikaria/Samos)
B: Markos_family(Samos/Pelopennese)Markos_Father(Samos)
C: ↴
-0.02178668 Ashkenazi_Germany
-0.02152671 BedouinB
-0.02096681 Saudi
-0.02071778 Yemenite_Mahra
-0.02043467 Yemenite_Al_Jawf
-0.02015964 Yemenite_Ma'rib
-0.02005628 Italian_Jew
-0.01987185 Moroccan_Jew
-0.01963562 Yemenite_Dhamar
-0.01882827 Yemenite_Jew
-0.01878092 Yemenite_Al_Bayda
-0.01818499 Tunisian_Jew
-0.01815048 Italian_Calabria
-0.01812511 Yemenite_Amran
-0.01801827 Romaniote_Jew
-0.01755642 Berber_Tunisia_Sen
-0.01738033 Libyan
-0.01736221 Maltese
-0.01671661 Libyan_Jew
-0.01663824 Tunisian
-0.01655531 Moroccan_North
-0.01637325 Ashkenazi_Lithuania
-0.01626813 Palestinian
-0.01617914 Moroccan
-0.01612270 Ashkenazi_Belarussia


Distance difference: ( AC - BC ) ↓
A: GS_family(Fourni/Ikaria/Samos):GS(Fourni/Ikaria/Samos)
B: Markos_family(Samos/Pelopennese)Markos_Father(Samos)
C: ↴
0.01557976 Kalash
0.01553539 Kaitag
0.01456690 Brahmin_Uttar_Pradesh
0.01448256 Ror
0.01426082 Darginian
0.01414240 Kubachinian
0.01411639 Punjabi_Jatt
0.01376148 Gujar_Pakistan
0.01367374 Khatri
0.01366813 Kohistani
0.01363521 Uthmankhel
0.01360448 Avar
0.01359401 Yusufzai
0.01357428 Kamboj
0.01355687 Gujar_India
0.01349410 Adygei
0.01343075 Kashmiri_Pandit
0.01337225 Gupta
0.01336535 Brahmin_Gujarat
0.01336262 Sindhi
0.01331360 Kho_Singanali
0.01329564 Pashtun
0.01327902 Ossetian
0.01325679 Tajik_Ishkashim
0.01317302 Kanjar

Distance difference: ( AC - BC ) ↑
A: GS_family(Fourni/Ikaria/Samos):GS(Fourni/Ikaria/Samos)
B: Greek_Crete
C: ↴
-0.00930746 Spanish_La_Rioja
-0.00815607 Sardinian
-0.00814189 Italian_Bergamo
-0.00796863 Italian_Northeast
-0.00789866 Sorb_Niederlausitz
-0.00779114 Spanish_Peri-Barcelona
-0.00771202 Montenegrin
-0.00763346 Spanish_Catalunya_Central
-0.00763158 French_Corsica
-0.00761953 Spanish_Castello
-0.00761080 Slovakian
-0.00757256 Spanish_Murcia
-0.00755985 Swiss_Italian
-0.00753624 Italian_Veneto
-0.00741992 Bosnian
-0.00736825 Albanian
-0.00735434 Greek_Central_Macedonia
-0.00734704 Italian_Aosta_Valley
-0.00733944 Spanish_Cataluna
-0.00730988 Macedonian
-0.00729716 Cossack_Kuban
-0.00726912 Serbian
-0.00721497 Spanish_Pirineu
-0.00721303 Lithuanian_VA
-0.00716340 Lithuanian_RA


Distance difference: ( AC - BC ) ↓
A: GS_family(Fourni/Ikaria/Samos):GS(Fourni/Ikaria/Samos)
B: Greek_Crete
C: ↴
0.01873468 Iranian_Lor
0.01815674 Azeri_Turkey
0.01813169 Ezid
0.01808569 Iranian_Mazandarani
0.01802946 Iranian_Jew
0.01801219 Armenian
0.01783590 Assyrian
0.01776291 Kurdish
0.01768718 Iranian_Zoroastrian
0.01752968 Iranian_Fars
0.01741335 Turkish_East
0.01739358 Georgian_Jew
0.01728790 Talysh_Azerbaijan
0.01724542 Iranian_Seyyed
0.01712069 Mountain_Jew_Chechnya
0.01701363 Iranian_Bandari
0.01680991 Azeri
0.01653688 Iraqi_Jew
0.01632603 Makrani
0.01613468 Turkish_Kayseri
0.01612688 Balochi
0.01603174 Brahui
0.01600062 Greek_Trabzon
0.01597379 Greek_Central_Anatolia
0.01594118 Parsi_Pakistan

23abc
11-07-2020, 04:21 PM
.

On an individual level the comparison might reveal stuff that's only unique to yourself, so the comparisons of averages of multiple samples probably do hold more meaning for determining regional variance. That can be seen in the comparison of Markos' father above, whose trace South Asian dominates the difference for him. In cases like that, the ratio mode would produce more relevant output. But yes, it's interesting that you show such a Levant shift, I would have thought most islands would have an Anatolian or Cypriot shift instead. Do your cousin matches on commercial websites show this affinity to the Levant also?

Greekscholar
11-07-2020, 05:55 PM
My family all show the same shift but adding in those samples doesn't add much new information. The Ikaria/Samos sample I have does not show the shift. It has 1-2% South Asian and that is what shows on this test. I'll go through my Ancestry.com matches and see how many have Middle East as a region like I do, focusing on the ones I know are from Fourni.

Johnny ola
11-07-2020, 06:36 PM
My family all show the same shift but adding in those samples doesn't add much new information. The Ikaria/Samos sample I have does not show the shift. It has 1-2% South Asian and that is what shows on this test. I'll go through my Ancestry.com matches and see how many have Middle East as a region like I do, focusing on the ones I know are from Fourni.

South Asia?How?Did you modeled your familly with south asian refrences?

Greekscholar
11-07-2020, 07:41 PM
South Asia?How?Did you modeled your familly with south asian refrences?

All moderns scaled model

Target: Ikaria/Samos_scaled
Distance: 2.2764% / 0.02276419
52.8 Greek_Crete
9.6 Samaritan
9.4 Sicilian_East
9.2 Greek_Trabzon
7.8 Sardinian
5.8 Italian_Lombardy
2.8 Greek_Thessaly
2.6 Gupta


This is a sample from a 3rd cousin or so level match who has three grandparents from Ikaria and one from Samos.

Johnny ola
11-07-2020, 07:59 PM
All moderns scaled model

Target: Ikaria/Samos_scaled
Distance: 2.2764% / 0.02276419
52.8 Greek_Crete
9.6 Samaritan
9.4 Sicilian_East
9.2 Greek_Trabzon
7.8 Sardinian
5.8 Italian_Lombardy
2.8 Greek_Thessaly
2.6 Gupta


This is a sample from a 3rd cousin or so level match who has three grandparents from Ikaria and one from Samos.



Hmm can you do a run with ancient refrences?Do you smell distant gypsy admixture?

Greekscholar
11-07-2020, 09:10 PM
Hmm can you do a run with ancient refrences?Do you smell distant gypsy admixture?

Yes, I think I do. One of his lines is a Phanariot name, so I wondered if he could have gotten the admix through having a more cosmopolitan ancestry, but he has no record of anything beyond Ikaria and Samos.


Target: Ikaria/Samos_scaled
Distance: 1.2634% / 0.01263423 | ADC: 0.25x RC
18.6 TUR_Barcin_C
14.4 DEU_Singen_EIA
13.8 DEU_MA_o
12.4 TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA_low_res
11.6 Levant_Yehud_IBA
10.8 Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2
9.8 ITA_Ardea_Latini_IA_o
5.0 Levant_Megiddo_MLBA_o1
3.6 PAK_Saidu_Sharif_H_o


Target: Ikaria/Samos_scaled
Distance: 1.0232% / 0.01023181
27.2 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_Historic
18.8 UKR_N_o
14.8 DEU_Singen_EIA
10.8 TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA_low_res
9.2 DEU_MA_o
5.4 Levant_Yehud_IBA
4.6 TUR_Tell_Kurdu_EC
4.2 TUR_Barcin_C
3.0 RUS_North_Caucasus_MBA
2.0 PAK_Saidu_Sharif_H_o

I have permission to give out his kit number, so here it is. I am including mine too in case anyone wants to play around with it.

Ikaria/Samos_scaled,0.10927,0.144205,-0.021873,-0.045543,0.006463,-0.016176,0.00282,0.002077,0.002045,0.020957,0.0077 95,0.005695,-0.00223,0.005505,-0.015065,-0.017104,-0.010691,-0.003421,0.004902,-0.008004,-0.006863,-0.000247,0.001972,-0.003374,-0.010538

GS_family(Fourni/Ikaria/Samos):GS(Fourni/Ikaria/Samos),0.111547,0.150298,-0.00528,-0.047804,0.015695,-0.013945,0.00376,0.001846,-0.000409,0.016219,0.002761,-0.002548,0.005054,0.002477,-0.020901,-0.005436,0.009518,-0.000507,-0.000377,-0.001376,-0.001747,0.000371,-0.000123,0.006868,0.002874

Johnny ola
11-07-2020, 09:12 PM
Yes, I think I do. One of his lines is a Phanariot name, so I wondered if he could have gotten the admix through having a more cosmopolitan ancestry, but he has no record of anything beyond Ikaria and Samos.


Target: Ikaria/Samos_scaled
Distance: 1.2634% / 0.01263423 | ADC: 0.25x RC
18.6 TUR_Barcin_C
14.4 DEU_Singen_EIA
13.8 DEU_MA_o
12.4 TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA_low_res
11.6 Levant_Yehud_IBA
10.8 Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2
9.8 ITA_Ardea_Latini_IA_o
5.0 Levant_Megiddo_MLBA_o1
3.6 PAK_Saidu_Sharif_H_o


Target: Ikaria/Samos_scaled
Distance: 1.0232% / 0.01023181
27.2 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_Historic
18.8 UKR_N_o
14.8 DEU_Singen_EIA
10.8 TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA_low_res
9.2 DEU_MA_o
5.4 Levant_Yehud_IBA
4.6 TUR_Tell_Kurdu_EC
4.2 TUR_Barcin_C
3.0 RUS_North_Caucasus_MBA
2.0 PAK_Saidu_Sharif_H_o

I have permission to give out his kit number, so here it is. I am including mine too in case anyone wants to play around with it.

Ikaria/Samos_scaled,0.10927,0.144205,-0.021873,-0.045543,0.006463,-0.016176,0.00282,0.002077,0.002045,0.020957,0.0077 95,0.005695,-0.00223,0.005505,-0.015065,-0.017104,-0.010691,-0.003421,0.004902,-0.008004,-0.006863,-0.000247,0.001972,-0.003374,-0.010538

GS_family(Fourni/Ikaria/Samos):GS(Fourni/Ikaria/Samos),0.111547,0.150298,-0.00528,-0.047804,0.015695,-0.013945,0.00376,0.001846,-0.000409,0.016219,0.002761,-0.002548,0.005054,0.002477,-0.020901,-0.005436,0.009518,-0.000507,-0.000377,-0.001376,-0.001747,0.000371,-0.000123,0.006868,0.002874

Cool.Do you know his ydna?

vasil
11-08-2020, 12:15 AM
Yes, I think I do. One of his lines is a Phanariot name, so I wondered if he could have gotten the admix through having a more cosmopolitan ancestry, but he has no record of anything beyond Ikaria and Samos.


Target: Ikaria/Samos_scaled
Distance: 1.2634% / 0.01263423 | ADC: 0.25x RC
18.6 TUR_Barcin_C
14.4 DEU_Singen_EIA
13.8 DEU_MA_o
12.4 TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA_low_res
11.6 Levant_Yehud_IBA
10.8 Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2
9.8 ITA_Ardea_Latini_IA_o
5.0 Levant_Megiddo_MLBA_o1
3.6 PAK_Saidu_Sharif_H_o


Target: Ikaria/Samos_scaled
Distance: 1.0232% / 0.01023181
27.2 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_Historic
18.8 UKR_N_o
14.8 DEU_Singen_EIA
10.8 TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA_low_res
9.2 DEU_MA_o
5.4 Levant_Yehud_IBA
4.6 TUR_Tell_Kurdu_EC
4.2 TUR_Barcin_C
3.0 RUS_North_Caucasus_MBA
2.0 PAK_Saidu_Sharif_H_o

I have permission to give out his kit number, so here it is. I am including mine too in case anyone wants to play around with it.

Ikaria/Samos_scaled,0.10927,0.144205,-0.021873,-0.045543,0.006463,-0.016176,0.00282,0.002077,0.002045,0.020957,0.0077 95,0.005695,-0.00223,0.005505,-0.015065,-0.017104,-0.010691,-0.003421,0.004902,-0.008004,-0.006863,-0.000247,0.001972,-0.003374,-0.010538

GS_family(Fourni/Ikaria/Samos):GS(Fourni/Ikaria/Samos),0.111547,0.150298,-0.00528,-0.047804,0.015695,-0.013945,0.00376,0.001846,-0.000409,0.016219,0.002761,-0.002548,0.005054,0.002477,-0.020901,-0.005436,0.009518,-0.000507,-0.000377,-0.001376,-0.001747,0.000371,-0.000123,0.006868,0.002874

Does it really need to be Gypsy dont Armenians also have a little bit of South Asian dna?

Johnny ola
11-08-2020, 01:31 AM
Does it really need to be Gypsy dont Armenians also have a little bit of South Asian dna?

Nope!!!

Greekscholar
11-08-2020, 02:01 AM
Does it really need to be Gypsy dont Armenians also have a little bit of South Asian dna?

Good question. The coords. are there if you want to try and model. The South Asian pops naturally in "all ancient" and "all modern" models. It is also visible on GEDmatch calculators. It is pretty clearly true South Asian at about 1-2% IMO, and the idea that Greeks can have Roma ancestry isn't odd, there are lots of that group in Greece, and in the Ottoman Empire before that.

vasil
11-08-2020, 02:03 AM
Nope!!!

I am sorry i dont think i frased it right i mean iran neolithic type stuff but maybe it shows it as south asian. He should maybe try running with ganj dareh and andamanese to see if it is really south asian ie gypsy or something like western iran/eastern armenia.

Johnny ola
11-08-2020, 02:13 AM
I am sorry i dont think i frased it right i mean iran neolithic type stuff but maybe it shows it as south asian. He should maybe try running with ganj dareh and andamanese to see if it is really south asian ie gypsy or something like western iran/eastern armenia.

There is not south asian admixture in the west eurasia.Most people with such admixture has prolly some distant Gypsy-Roman related admixture.

vasil
11-08-2020, 02:31 AM
There is not south asian admixture in the west eurasia.Most people with such admixture has prolly some distant Gypsy-Roman related admixture.

Thats exactly what i am saying maybe its not south asian at all.
Target: Roma_Balkans
Distance: 5.8428% / 0.05842820
36.4 TUR_Pinarbasi_HG
30.0 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
19.0 IND_Great_Andamanese_100BP
8.4 GEO_CHG
6.2 LUX_Loschbour

Target: Greek_Crete
Distance: 4.2818% / 0.04281800
54.4 TUR_Pinarbasi_HG
18.6 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
17.0 GEO_CHG
8.2 Levant_Natufian
1.8 LUX_Loschbour

Target: Greek_Central_Anatolia
Distance: 3.9550% / 0.03955005
50.2 TUR_Pinarbasi_HG
22.0 GEO_CHG
20.2 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
7.6 Levant_Natufian

Target: Armenian_Hemsheni
Distance: 4.3371% / 0.04337089
36.6 TUR_Pinarbasi_HG
36.4 GEO_CHG
18.4 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
8.6 Levant_Natufian

Target: Armenian
Distance: 4.3373% / 0.04337262
37.2 TUR_Pinarbasi_HG
25.8 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
24.8 GEO_CHG
12.2 Levant_Natufian

Target: Iranian_Fars
Distance: 3.6957% / 0.03695725
42.2 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
28.2 TUR_Pinarbasi_HG
15.8 GEO_CHG
8.8 Levant_Natufian
3.6 IND_Great_Andamanese_100BP
1.4 LUX_Loschbour

Target: Parsi_India
Distance: 4.4006% / 0.04400625
48.2 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
23.8 TUR_Pinarbasi_HG
13.4 IND_Great_Andamanese_100BP
7.6 GEO_CHG
5.6 Levant_Natufian
1.4 LUX_Loschbour

Target: Parsi_Pakistan
Distance: 4.4654% / 0.04465393
47.6 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
23.2 TUR_Pinarbasi_HG
12.6 IND_Great_Andamanese_100BP
8.6 GEO_CHG
6.2 Levant_Natufian
1.8 LUX_Loschbour

Target: Ikaria/Samos_scaled
Distance: 5.3125% / 0.05312539
55.2 TUR_Pinarbasi_HG
17.6 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
17.0 GEO_CHG
9.2 Levant_Natufian
1.0 LUX_Loschbour

See what i am saying?

Greekscholar
11-08-2020, 02:42 AM
I am sorry i dont think i frased it right i mean iran neolithic type stuff but maybe it shows it as south asian. He should maybe try running with ganj dareh and andamanese to see if it is really south asian ie gypsy or something like western iran/eastern armenia.

This sample is pretty standard for a Greek Islander except the South Asian. Marko's father shows direct South Asian as well in most models. The Roma came to the islands for years to trade, fix things, and hang around for awhile before moving on. I don't know if they still do or not. Roma were around in Ottoman times as well, frequently as members of the army, or army camps.

The West Asian and historic Iranic influences are clearly seen in the other and not confused.

Target: Ikaria/Samos_scaled
Distance: 2.2764% / 0.02276419
52.8 Greek_Crete
9.6 Samaritan
9.4 Sicilian_East
9.2 Greek_Trabzon
7.8 Sardinian
5.8 Italian_Lombardy
2.8 Greek_Thessaly
2.6 Gupta


Target: Chris_scaled(Peloponnese/Crete/AsiaMinor)
Distance: 1.3349% / 0.01334899
45.2 Greek_Smyrna
14.6 Greek_Crete
14.6 Macedonian
7.6 Sardinian
6.4 Iranian_Mazandarani
6.2 Italian_Umbria
4.2 Mountain_Jew_Chechnya
1.2 Greek_Trabzon


Target: GS_family(Fourni/Ikaria/Samos):GS(Fourni/Ikaria/Samos)
Distance: 1.8980% / 0.01898027
37.0 Greek_Smyrna
17.4 Greek_Central_Macedonia
11.8 Albanian
11.0 Samaritan
8.0 Cypriot
6.4 Italian_Calabria
4.0 Sardinian
2.4 Turkish_Trabzon
2.0 BedouinB


Target: GS_family(Fourni/Ikaria/Samos):GS_Dad(Fourni/Ikaria/Samos)
Distance: 1.8263% / 0.01826314
58.2 Greek_Peloponnese
20.0 Greek_Smyrna
7.2 Greek_Central_Macedonia
6.8 BedouinB
3.8 Palestinian_Beit_Sahour
2.2 Lebanese_Christian
1.0 Berber_Tunisia_Chen
0.8 Sardinian

Target: 23abc_scaled(Kalymnos)
Distance: 2.1504% / 0.02150415
40.2 Italian_Apulia
18.2 Iraqi_Jew
13.8 Greek_Thessaly
9.6 Turkish_Trabzon
5.6 Italian_Lazio
5.0 Karaite_Egypt
4.6 Greek_Central_Anatolia
2.8 Moroccan_Jew
0.2 Samaritan

Target: Markos_family(Samos/Pelopennese)Markos_Father(Samos)
Distance: 2.8832% / 0.02883174
36.4 Greek_Trabzon
18.2 Serbian
15.6 Greek_Crete
10.4 Sardinian
8.8 Italian_Lombardy
6.0 Greek_Thessaly
3.6 Italian_Liguria
0.8 Gupta
0.2 Wichi

vasil
11-08-2020, 02:46 AM
Maybe it is Gypsy and i am pulling stuff out my ass:) I am just saying it doesnt have to be.

Greekscholar
11-08-2020, 03:03 AM
snip
See what i am saying?

I don't know how to model Asian populations that far east and south, but the fit is very bad for Ikaria/Samos(are you using scaled?). Try this instead. The fit is much better with the PAK reference, although the South Asian source is metal age not neothic. Other Greek samples do not show this except for Markos' father.


Target: Ikaria/Samos_scaled
Distance: 3.1972% / 0.03197238
71.0 Anatolia_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N
19.6 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
7.8 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
1.0 GEO_CHG
0.4 RUS_Devils_Gate_Cave_N
0.2 Levant_Natufian



Target: Ikaria/Samos_scaled
Distance: 2.9666% / 0.02966632
71.0 Anatolia_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N
17.2 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
7.0 PAK_Katelai_LBA
2.8 GEO_CHG
1.8 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
0.2 Levant_Natufian

These samples all have the same choice of South Asian source populations and picked only trace amounts, except Markos's father.


Target: 23abc_scaled(Kalymnos)
Distance: 3.1251% / 0.03125087
69.2 Anatolia_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N
19.2 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
10.6 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
0.8 GEO_CHG
0.2 Levant_Natufian


Target: GS_family(Fourni/Ikaria/Samos):GS_Dad(Fourni/Ikaria/Samos)
Distance: 2.7556% / 0.02755641
51.2 Anatolia_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N
26.0 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
14.8 Anatolia_Barcin_N
4.6 Levant_Natufian
2.8 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
0.6 PAK_Arkotkila_IA


Target: Greek_Crete
Distance: 1.7315% / 0.01731489
67.4 Anatolia_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N
21.6 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
8.4 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
1.8 Levant_Natufian
0.8 GEO_CHG


Target: Markos_family(Samos/Pelopennese)Markos_Father(Samos)
Distance: 3.4888% / 0.03488781
48.2 Anatolia_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N
23.4 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
16.6 Anatolia_Barcin_N
8.0 GEO_CHG
3.8 PAK_Katelai_LBA


Target: Chris_scaled(Peloponnese/Crete/AsiaMinor)
Distance: 2.0599% / 0.02059906
39.0 Anatolia_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N
28.8 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
25.2 Anatolia_Barcin_N
7.0 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N


Target: Greek_Smyrna
Distance: 1.5254% / 0.01525426
42.4 Anatolia_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N
29.2 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
22.8 Anatolia_Barcin_N
4.8 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
0.8 Levant_Natufian

Greekscholar
11-08-2020, 03:08 AM
Maybe it is Gypsy and i am pulling stuff out my ass:) I am just saying it doesnt have to be.

One family in his line has an important Greek last name, so maybe his ancestor was cosmopolitan Ottoman and picked it up that way. I don't know either. South Asian amounts like this exist, but are not very common, so something is going on. I think the calculators are correct in any case.

lacreme
11-08-2020, 01:13 PM
Does anyone have individual samples of Greek Cappadocians and Caucasus Greeks that can be used with these models ? In eurogenes averages at least, they have 1% and 1,6% South Asian respectively. Could it simply be a case of historical Iranic like influence which seeped into nearby populations over the centuries ? Population movements happen constantly, let alone during the turbulent centuries following the completion of the hellenization of Anatolia. And it might as well be something more recent but unknown due to incomplete paper trails

fake EDIT
Sorry if I've asked the same question in the past, I definitely recall reading a similar conversation but not my posts :P

Johnny ola
11-08-2020, 01:54 PM
Does anyone have individual samples of Greek Cappadocians and Caucasus Greeks that can be used with these models ? In eurogenes averages at least, they have 1% and 1,6% South Asian respectively. Could it simply be a case of historical Iranic like influence which seeped into nearby populations over the centuries ? Population movements happen constantly, let alone during the turbulent centuries following the completion of the hellenization of Anatolia. And it might as well be something more recent but unknown due to incomplete paper trails

fake EDIT
Sorry if I've asked the same question in the past, I definitely recall reading a similar conversation but not my posts :P

You are confused with the admixtures.Iran N and Iranian admixture has nothing to do with south asian dna.Not even Iranians do not have south asian dna..only some specific areas.You can check these things in the G25 running with ancient refrences.You can use south asian and iranic components to estimate these admixtures.All of modern Greeks have Iran N admixture witch is related with migrations from anatolia and the caucasus but they have nothing to do with Persians or other Iranians.G25 is the most accurate program that we got to estimate such admixtures.Eurogenes k13 is better to understand your closing populations not to estimate admixtures in your autosomal DNA.

Johnny ola
11-08-2020, 05:34 PM
Thats exactly what i am saying maybe its not south asian at all.
Target: Roma_Balkans
Distance: 5.8428% / 0.05842820
36.4 TUR_Pinarbasi_HG
30.0 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
19.0 IND_Great_Andamanese_100BP
8.4 GEO_CHG
6.2 LUX_Loschbour

Target: Greek_Crete
Distance: 4.2818% / 0.04281800
54.4 TUR_Pinarbasi_HG
18.6 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
17.0 GEO_CHG
8.2 Levant_Natufian
1.8 LUX_Loschbour

Target: Greek_Central_Anatolia
Distance: 3.9550% / 0.03955005
50.2 TUR_Pinarbasi_HG
22.0 GEO_CHG
20.2 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
7.6 Levant_Natufian

Target: Armenian_Hemsheni
Distance: 4.3371% / 0.04337089
36.6 TUR_Pinarbasi_HG
36.4 GEO_CHG
18.4 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
8.6 Levant_Natufian

Target: Armenian
Distance: 4.3373% / 0.04337262
37.2 TUR_Pinarbasi_HG
25.8 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
24.8 GEO_CHG
12.2 Levant_Natufian

Target: Iranian_Fars
Distance: 3.6957% / 0.03695725
42.2 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
28.2 TUR_Pinarbasi_HG
15.8 GEO_CHG
8.8 Levant_Natufian
3.6 IND_Great_Andamanese_100BP
1.4 LUX_Loschbour

Target: Parsi_India
Distance: 4.4006% / 0.04400625
48.2 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
23.8 TUR_Pinarbasi_HG
13.4 IND_Great_Andamanese_100BP
7.6 GEO_CHG
5.6 Levant_Natufian
1.4 LUX_Loschbour

Target: Parsi_Pakistan
Distance: 4.4654% / 0.04465393
47.6 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
23.2 TUR_Pinarbasi_HG
12.6 IND_Great_Andamanese_100BP
8.6 GEO_CHG
6.2 Levant_Natufian
1.8 LUX_Loschbour

Target: Ikaria/Samos_scaled
Distance: 5.3125% / 0.05312539
55.2 TUR_Pinarbasi_HG
17.6 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
17.0 GEO_CHG
9.2 Levant_Natufian
1.0 LUX_Loschbour

See what i am saying?

Pinarbsi and Natufian samples making your fits really bad. These samples are Palaeolithic... Why you do not using Neolithic related refrences?

Roma-Gypsy people are very mixed today and many of them Have local west eurasian heritage. But no, Armenians do not have such admixture. Their Iran N is from their BA Anatolian and Caucasus(Kura-Araxes) related ancestry.

Iran N does not mean=Iranian lol.

Greekscholar
11-08-2020, 05:43 PM
Ikaria/Samos lists his Y-clade as E1b1b. His male line is the grandfather from Samos.

Johnny ola
11-08-2020, 06:11 PM
Ikaria/Samos lists his Y-clade as E1b1b. His male line is the grandfather from Samos.

Might be EV13.

Greekscholar
11-08-2020, 06:40 PM
On an individual level the comparison might reveal stuff that's only unique to yourself, so the comparisons of averages of multiple samples probably do hold more meaning for determining regional variance. That can be seen in the comparison of Markos' father above, whose trace South Asian dominates the difference for him. In cases like that, the ratio mode would produce more relevant output. But yes, it's interesting that you show such a Levant shift, I would have thought most islands would have an Anatolian or Cypriot shift instead. Do your cousin matches on commercial websites show this affinity to the Levant also?

Looking at non-admixed Greeks with at least 1/2 ancestry from Fourni for the Middle East region on Ancestry.com.

15 total

0% - 5
2% - 5% - 6
5%+ - 4

I was not able to get enough samples from Greeks from other islands because Ancestry won't let me see their cM matches to each other to figure out the cousin clusters with enough accuracy. So, probably not very useful information.

vasil
11-08-2020, 07:02 PM
Pinarbsi and Natufian samples making your fits really bad. These samples are Palaeolithic... Why you do not using Neolithic related refrences?

Roma-Gypsy people are very mixed today and many of them Have local west eurasian heritage. But no, Armenians do not have such admixture. Their Iran N is from their BA Anatolian and Caucasus(Kura-Araxes) related ancestry.

Iran N does not mean=Iranian lol.

I dont think you understand what i am trying to say. I agree with you that iran neolithic is not south asian what i meant was that the way he was running it might have picked up the iran neolithic and thought it was south asian but infact it may be something like Armenian or Kurdish or something else from the region.What would be indicative of real south asian would something like andamanese.

23abc
11-08-2020, 07:17 PM
Looking at non-admixed Greeks with at least 1/2 ancestry from Fourni for the Middle East region on Ancestry.com.

15 total

0% - 5
2% - 5% - 6
5%+ - 4

I was not able to get enough samples from Greeks from other islands because Ancestry won't let me see their cM matches to each other to figure out the cousin clusters with enough accuracy. So, probably not very useful information.

Right. You don't have 23andMe, do you?

On AncestryDNA, full Kalymnians in general mostly score on a decent level of Greek & Albanian (50-60% on average), the rest mainly being distributed in Middle East, Cyprus and Southern Italy. Actually very little Turkey & the Caucasus is scored in most people (0-5% on average). I've seen someone score 70% Greek & Albanian + 30% Middle East. This is very different in 23andMe where many score Anatolian/Iranian/Cypriot category, and hardly any score the Levant/Arab/Egyptian category. I wonder why the two commercial sites cannot agree on the source of WANA admixture?

I personally score a much lower Greek & Albanian (28%, but it says it could be as high as 60% when I click on it) and much higher Turkey & the Caucasus (33%) compared to a full Kalymnian. This probably is because my mother scores above 40% Turkey & the Caucasus. But considering that I do seem very inflated though, I'd say below 20% would be more reasonable in comparison to my other matches. Also, my mother's second highest category is Southern Italy, then Cyprus and only after that Greece & Albania. Interestingly, she's one of the few people I've seen that scores The Balkans and Northern Italy, which I think is legitimate as of those those components (either northern Italian or Dosas' father) improves her fits on G25 oracle.

My mother's matches are very different. The majority score an even split of around 15-25% in each of the following categories:

Greece & Albania
Southern Italy
Cyprus
Turkey & the Caucasus
Middle East


All that said I'm not sure if AncestryDNA is very good with the WANA region, hopefully they'll expand it in a future update.

Greekscholar
11-08-2020, 07:20 PM
I dont think you understand what i am trying to say. I agree with you that iran neolithic is not south asian what i meant was that the way he was running it might have picked up the iran neolithic and thought it was south asian but infact it may be something like Armenian or Kurdish or something else from the region.What would be indicative of real south asian would something like andamanese.

Andamanese works fine too at improving fit. Any way you cut it, modeling this person with a true South Asian reference improves fit. I don't see why this particular sample would be picking up this trace in ancient and modern modeling to represent West Asian admixture when other Greeks do not. The most clear cut explanation for this sample is that he has a small amount of Roma ancestry.

Target: Ikaria/Samos_scaled
Distance: 3.2029% / 0.03202896
70.6 Anatolia_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N
20.0 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
7.8 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
1.0 GEO_CHG
0.6 Levant_Natufian


Target: Ikaria/Samos_scaled
Distance: 3.1551% / 0.03155084
71.2 Anatolia_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N
19.2 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
6.8 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
1.4 GEO_CHG
1.4 IND_Great_Andamanese_100BP

23abc
11-08-2020, 07:26 PM
On the average level South Asian is pretty much a non-factor but on the individual level it is clear it exists. I've seen a few people with 0.1-0.5% Bengali on 23andMe, but obviously these people have a distant South Asian admixture which is unique to them. Most Greeks don't have it.

About South Asian on Eurogenes K13, many populations score in the 0-1.5% range. I think only above 2% would it indicate a chance for real South Asian admixture. But even then, it could easily be noise.

Greekscholar
11-08-2020, 07:28 PM
Right. You don't have 23andMe, do you?

On AncestryDNA, full Kalymnians in general mostly score on a decent level of Greek & Albanian (50-60% on average), the rest mainly being distributed in Middle East, Cyprus and Southern Italy. Actually very little Turkey & the Caucasus is scored in most people (0-5% on average). I've seen someone score 70% Greek & Albanian + 30% Middle East. This is very different in 23andMe where many score Anatolian/Iranian/Cypriot category, and hardly any score the Levant/Arab/Egyptian category. I wonder why the two commercial sites cannot agree on the source of WANA admixture?

I personally score a much lower Greek & Albanian (28%, but it says it could be as high as 60% when I click on it) and much higher Turkey & the Caucasus (33%) compared to a full Kalymnian. This probably is because my mother scores above 40% Turkey & the Caucasus. But considering that I do seem very inflated though, I'd say below 20% would be more reasonable in comparison to my other matches. Also, my mother's second highest category is Southern Italy, then Cyprus and only after that Greece & Albania. Interestingly, she's one of the few people I've seen that scores The Balkans and Northern Italy, which I think is legitimate as of those those components (either northern Italian or Dosas' father) improves her fits on G25 oracle.

My mother's matches are very different. The majority score an even split of around 15-25% in each of the following categories:

Greece & Albania
Southern Italy
Cyprus
Turkey & the Caucasus
Middle East


All that said I'm not sure if AncestryDNA is very good with the WANA region, hopefully they'll expand it in a future update.

I don't think there is a consistent reason for how the neighboring regions are assigned for Greeks on Ancestry.com. It is getting better with each update, but so long as they keep dividing Southern Italy and the Greek islands into different regions, they will always be balancing out those two + neighboring regions to account for the difference between Mainland Greeks and Island Greeks. I've thought of ordering a 23andMe kit, but I am not sure if it is worth investing in that since I have G25.

Johnny ola
11-08-2020, 08:34 PM
I dont think you understand what i am trying to say. I agree with you that iran neolithic is not south asian what i meant was that the way he was running it might have picked up the iran neolithic and thought it was south asian but infact it may be something like Armenian or Kurdish or something else from the region.What would be indicative of real south asian would something like andamanese.

There is not south asian admixture in the west eurasia region.Such admixture arrived in west eurasia only with Roma-Gypsy people and with Turkic associated tribes.Armenians are west eurasian.Kurds as well thought some Kurds have mixed with Anatolian Turks recently hence their east eurasian/south asian components.

Greekscholar
11-08-2020, 09:41 PM
I tried to ID the most Levant heavy G25 Greek samples to see if I could duplicate what I am seeing with (AC - BC) and could not. All of the samples that have similar Levant percents to mine have significantly more West Asian. So, comparing them less Levant heavy Greek samples brings up both West Asian and Levant moderns.

When I compare myself to these fellow Levant heavy samples, I pop the Mainland components, and they show the West Asian ones....although the most Levant heavy of all the G25 islanders do have more than I do, like the one below. I guess for now all I can conclude is that my family samples are slight outliers. Levant heavy like Crete/Kos, but with about 1/2 the neolithic West Asian as those samples.

Distance difference: ( AC - BC ) ↑
A: GS(Fourni/Ikaria/Samos)
B: Greek_Kos:GreeceKos9
C: ↴
-0.02119698 Italian_Liguria
-0.02028118 Albanian
-0.01995574 Italian_Lombardy
-0.01985573 Spanish_Asturias
-0.01970321 Italian_Bergamo
-0.01954269 Serbian
-0.01932803 Slovenian
-0.01930526 Russian_Smolensk
-0.01929983 Greek_Thessaly
-0.01903830 Moldovan
-0.01895228 Greek_Central_Macedonia
-0.01881706 Russian_Voronez
-0.01881487 Macedonian
-0.01880259 Belarusian
-0.01879320 German_East
-0.01878203 Croatian
-0.01874610 Hungarian
-0.01860571 Romanian
-0.01854523 Italian_Northeast
-0.01852813 Spanish_Barcelones
-0.01851390 Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige
-0.01849027 Lithuanian_VZ
-0.01848488 Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon
-0.01840411 Estonian
-0.01840149 Finnish

Distance difference: ( AC - BC ) ↓
A: GS(Fourni/Ikaria/Samos)
B: Greek_Kos:GreeceKos9
C: ↴
0.01475454 Armenian_Hemsheni
0.01444855 Assyrian
0.01406889 Palestinian_Beit_Sahour
0.01369689 Turkish_Trabzon
0.01336026 Georgian_Jew
0.01324251 Armenian
0.01322707 Greek_Central_Anatolia
0.01313319 Mountain_Jew_Chechnya
0.01301037 Kurdish
0.01277218 Georgian_Laz
0.01262245 Talysh_Azerbaijan
0.01247504 Greek_Trabzon
0.01228374 Iraqi_Jew
0.01152237 Iranian_Jew
0.01145777 Georgian_Imer
0.01134830 Druze
0.01114127 Iranian_Lor
0.01078954 Iranian_Mazandarani
0.01078598 Ezid
0.01056403 Lebanese_Druze
0.01042052 Iranian_Zoroastrian
0.01021059 Turkish_East
0.00990065 Lebanese_Christian
0.00932515 Iranian_Seyyed
0.00931522 Iranian_Fars

xripkan
11-09-2020, 07:15 PM
I used the new tool with K13 spreadsheet. I compared Peloponnese and Cyclades

Distance difference: ( AC - BC ) ↑
A: Greek_Peloponnese
B: Greek_Cyclades
C: ↴
-6.27956436 kal009_Sigtuna_10_12_century_f_t2f1_
-6.23828437 Kivutkalns215_Latvia_BA_663_ybp
-6.22500251 Kivutkalns25_Latvia_BA_673_ybp
-6.22421818 Sungir6_Early_Medieval_Russian_I2a_I2a_
-6.21174260 Kivutkalns42_Latvia_BA_685_ybp
-6.20400173 Kivutkalns19_Latvia_BA_565_ybp
-6.18927370 DA29_European_in_Kazakhstan_1300_AD_700_
-6.18529328 Kivutkalns222_Latvia_BA_660_ybp
-6.18174364 Kivutkalns207_Latvia_BA_560_ybp
-6.17615020 Kivutkalns209_Latvia_BA_318_ybp
-6.17206669 vik_kal009_Sweden_Viking.SG_900_ybp
-6.14102676 Kivutkalns153_Latvia_BA_673_ybp
-6.13314068 Turlojiske1_Ancient_Suwalki_R1a_
-6.11660149 I5885_Ukraine_Mesolithic_8110_ybp
-6.09871937 RISE479_Hungary_Vatya.SG_3700_ybp
-6.09022058 ZVEJ31_Latvia_MN2_6179_5750_BC4229_3800_cal_BC_
-6.08706123 ZVEJ25_latvia_HG2_narva_7791_7586_BC5841_5636_calB C_
-6.08603587 I1733_Ukraine_Mesolithic_10200_ybp
-6.08374751 AV2_Hungary_Szolad_540_640_AD_540_640_AD_
-6.07244244 North_Norwegian_HG_Steigen
-6.06584477 I1378_Mesolithic_Ukraine_6kya_
-6.05951994 Vs_1188_Ancient_Suwalki_R1a_R1a_
-6.05885995 DA171_NLithuania_1900_1300_N_L1025_
-6.05614453 I0011_Sweden_Motala_HG_7569_ybp
-6.05363490 I4436_Latvia_MN_6105_ybp

Distance difference: ( AC - BC ) ↓
A: Greek_Peloponnese
B: Greek_Cyclades
C: ↴
6.37549636 R30_Lazio_Rome_Early_Medieval_Italy
6.33347028 CL38_longobard_north_italy
6.25593228 R40_Lazio_Rome_Roman_Imperial
6.17478159 col006_col006_
6.16562821 R47_Lazio_Rome_Roman_Imperial
6.15802058 R54_Lazio_Rome_Late_Medieval_Italy
6.13818703 CL30_longobard_north_italy
6.11620612 col003_col003_
6.10286328 R133_Lazio_Rome_Italy_Late_Antiquity
6.10034827 R1544_Lazio_Rome_Roman_Imperial
6.06991275 R117_Lazio_Rome_Italy_Late_Antiquity
5.97723071 R65_Lazio_Rome_Medieval_Italy
5.97518308 R436_Lazio_Rome_Roman_Imperial
5.95582105 R44_Lazio_Rome_Roman_Imperial
5.90119546 R58_Lazio_Rome_Medieval_Italy
5.88058130 R49_Lazio_Rome_Roman_Imperial
5.83324116 R75_Lazio_Rome_Roman_Imperial
5.79151091 R43_Lazio_Rome_Roman_Imperial
5.78668172 R134_Lazio_Rome_Italy_Late_Antiquity
5.77915493 R51_Lazio_Rome_Roman_Imperial
5.77463245 col002_col002_F_H_
5.69647310 R73_Lazio_Rome_Roman_Imperial
5.68756794 R130_Lazio_Rome_Italy_Late_Antiquity
5.66047343 R137_Lazio_Rome_Italy_Late_Antiquity
5.63291588 R72_Lazio_Rome_Roman_Imperial

Cyclades is not clearly Anatolian shifted compared to Peloponnesian. It seems more Imperial Rome shifted.
Using modern pops it is closer to South Italians


Distance difference: ( AC - BC ) ↑
A: Greek_Cyclades
B: Greek_Peloponnese
C: ↴
-6.05475283 Greek_Symi_Island
-6.02729195 IT_Campania
-5.98432849 IT_Calabria
-5.88939474 IT_Calabria_citra
-5.87568690 IT_Calabria_ultra
-5.53415985 IT_Salento
-5.53355970 Malta
-5.52462434 Greek_Dodecanese
-5.51747774 Sicily
-5.49785004 Sephardic_Jewish
-5.47774173 IT_Apulia
-5.45908808 Greek_North_Aegean
-5.39357166 Greek_Chios
-5.09347620 IT_Puglia
-5.05439609 Tunisian_Jewish
-4.99655274 Greek_Cypriot
-4.98239790 Nusayri
-4.92149198 IT_Sannio
-4.89836378 Italian_Jewish
-4.86698972 Libyan_Jewish
-4.86088225 Lebanese_Muslim
-4.82652836 Greek_Cappadocian
-4.81874201 IT_Basilicata
-4.80068821 IT_Lucania
-4.77437620 IT_Molise

Distance difference: ( AC - BC ) ↓
A: Greek_Cyclades
B: Greek_Peloponnese
C: ↴
6.38274718 MacedonianNorthEast
6.32564373 Pomak_Plovdiv
6.27213752 Greek_Central_Macedonia
6.23971394 Bulgaria_Northwestern
6.22768041 Ukrainian_Ivano_Frankivsk
6.21074870 Torbeshi_North-Macedonia-Central
6.19971820 Greek_Northern-Thrace
6.19705932 Serb_B&H_Herzegovina
6.18843790 Romania_Dobruja
6.18729983 Serb_Serbia_South&East
6.18554224 Bulgaria_Southcentral
6.18362683 Croat_B&H_Herzegovina
6.17697644 Latvian
6.15816278 Serb_B&H_Krajina
6.15235510 MACEDONIAN_AVERAGE
6.14802298 Estonian_Polish
6.14396652 MacedonianCentral
6.14239296 Romania_Maramures
6.13836007 Serb_Croatia_Lika
6.13815109 Bosniak_Bosnia_proper
6.13803461 Romania_Banat
6.13699148 Serb_Serbia
6.13600838 Vlach(Aromanian)_average
6.13501740 Lithuanian
6.13422854 Serb_B&H

However the most interesting part is when I compare Cyclades with Salento (Southern Apulia where the Griko minority lives)


Distance difference: ( AC - BC ) ↓
A: Greek_Cyclades
B: IT_Salento
C: ↴
3.99622520 I9041_Greece_Mycenaean_3250_ybp
3.69664045 I8215_3iberia_
3.66247805 I8215_iberia_
3.64151903 I8215_2iberia_
3.35725026 I2425_Bulgaria_Late_C_6515_ybp
3.33694503 R437b_Lazio_Rome_Roman_Republic
3.30480451 I9005_Greece_Minoan_Lassithi_4000_ybp
3.29353610 R52_Lazio_Rome_Late_Medieval_Italy
3.27287974 I5769_Bulgaria_IA_2600_ybp
3.19415754 I1906_Hungary_Lengyel_LN_6600_ybp
3.18962676 I1506_NE1_HungaryEN_
3.17027894 SZ19_Hungary_Langobard_1463_ybp
3.16979305 I9033_Mycenaean_1352_bc_M_
3.16828328 I2430_Bulgaria_Late_C_6448_ybp
3.16304569 I1891_Hungary_Sopot_LN_6969_ybp
3.13577491 I0781_Bulgaria_C_6400_ybp
3.13541761 R113_Lazio_Rome_Roman_Imperial
3.13276024 I4918_Serbia_Starcevo_EN_7600_ybp
3.12408969 I2519_Bulgaria_C_6242_ybp
3.12407536 I1899_Hungary_Lengyel_LN_6380_ybp
3.11612501 I2510_Bulgaria_EBA_4758_ybp
3.11279249 I2029_Germany_LBK_EN_7126_ybp
3.11085208 I2743_Hungary_ALPc_Szakalhat_MN_7050_ybp
3.10849756 I1909_Hungary_Balaton_Lasinja_CA_6089_ybp
3.10466894 I5117_Hungary_LCA_4550_ybp


Distance difference: ( AC - BC ) ↑
A: Greek_Cyclades
B: IT_Salento
C: ↴
-4.05801992 SharakhalsunSteppeMaykop_SA6004_
-4.03168437 RISE546_Russia_Yamnaya_Kalmykia.SG_4650_ybp
-4.02684153 SA6004_Oldest_Wagon_Driver_5kya_
-4.01228927 ANCIENT_SA6001Sharakhalsun6_Steppe_of_Maykop_cultu re_5444_
-4.01056531 I0354_Russia_Srubnaya_o_published_3803_ybp
-3.99915769 AY2003_Aygurskiy_2_Steppe_Maykop_5455_H2a1_
-3.98258263 scy193_SG_Moldova_Scythian_o1_SG
-3.92911229 ANCIENT_NV3001_Nevinnomisky3_Steppe_of_N_Caucasus_ 3970_years_old_
-3.91879558 ANCIENT_PG2004Progress2_Steppe_of_N_Caucasus_6090_
-3.91452796 RISE510_Russia_Afanasievo.SG_4610_ybp
-3.87563242 I0211_Russia_Karelia_HG_8280_ybp
-3.87189653 I0374_Russia_Poltavka_4350_ybp
-3.86804388 I0433_Russia_Khvalynsk_EN_6550_ybp
-3.86423783 Pazyryk_IA_Be11
-3.85719678 ZO2002_Zolotarevka_2_Yamnaya_Caucasus_4850_U5a1_
-3.84439351 AfontovaGora3_AfontovaGora2_merge_
-3.83735967 I0126_Russia_Poltavka_4627_ybp
-3.83482105 I0440_Russia_Poltavka_4727_ybp
-3.82121478 I0429_Russia_Yamnaya_Samara_5079_ybp
-3.81688398 RISE548_Russia_Yamnaya_Kalmykia.SG_4650_ybp
-3.80133200 Pazyryk_IA_Be9
-3.79295670 Afanasievo_RISE511_Russia_290902468_BC
-3.78657892 RISE552_Russia_Yamnaya_Kalmykia.SG_4446_ybp
-3.78504104 GM_DJUL_GM_DJUL_
-3.78221527 I0438_Russia_Yamnaya_Samara_4778_ybp


These areas are pretty close. The difference is that Salento is clearly Mycenaean-shifted compared to Cyclades.

Michalis Moriopoulos
11-17-2020, 10:10 PM
My mom is Northwest Euro. This is how the program accounts for my Greek half:

Distance difference: ( AC - BC ) ↑
A: Mike_M_scaled
B: Mikes_Mom_scaled
C: ↴
-0.06372450 Palestinian_Beit_Sahour
-0.06320805 Lebanese_Christian
-0.06314136 Ashkenazi_Germany
-0.06309543 Ashkenazi_Lithuania
-0.06306763 Druze
-0.06304680 Ashkenazi_Belarussia
-0.06304530 Cypriot
-0.06290918 Romaniote_Jew
-0.06261360 Syrian_Jew
-0.06251771 Lebanese_Druze
-0.06217817 Ashkenazi_Poland
-0.06217287 Ashkenazi_Russia
-0.06215297 Italian_Jew
-0.06208547 Greek_Kos
-0.06194115 Lebanese_Muslim
-0.06165432 Samaritan
-0.06163344 Ashkenazi_Ukraine
-0.06148219 Sephardic_Jew
-0.06136954 Iraqi_Jew
-0.06122464 Karaite_Egypt
-0.06102955 Greek_Crete
-0.06079420 Italian_Basilicata
-0.06076801 Italian_Calabria
-0.06073786 Italian_Campania
-0.06009935 Libyan_Jew

23abc
11-17-2020, 10:26 PM
My mom is Northwest Euro. This is how the program accounts for my Greek half:

Distance difference: ( AC - BC ) ↑
A: Mike_M_scaled
B: Mikes_Mom_scaled
C: ↴
-0.06372450 Palestinian_Beit_Sahour
-0.06320805 Lebanese_Christian
-0.06314136 Ashkenazi_Germany
-0.06309543 Ashkenazi_Lithuania
-0.06306763 Druze
-0.06304680 Ashkenazi_Belarussia
-0.06304530 Cypriot
-0.06290918 Romaniote_Jew
-0.06261360 Syrian_Jew
-0.06251771 Lebanese_Druze
-0.06217817 Ashkenazi_Poland
-0.06217287 Ashkenazi_Russia
-0.06215297 Italian_Jew
-0.06208547 Greek_Kos
-0.06194115 Lebanese_Muslim
-0.06165432 Samaritan
-0.06163344 Ashkenazi_Ukraine
-0.06148219 Sephardic_Jew
-0.06136954 Iraqi_Jew
-0.06122464 Karaite_Egypt
-0.06102955 Greek_Crete
-0.06079420 Italian_Basilicata
-0.06076801 Italian_Calabria
-0.06073786 Italian_Campania
-0.06009935 Libyan_Jew

I would have expected Greek_Kos to be the highest. Do you think the degree of Levantine shift it shows is legitimately that high?

Michalis Moriopoulos
11-17-2020, 11:19 PM
I would have expected Greek_Kos to be the highest. Do you think the degree of Levantine shift it shows is legitimately that high?

I wish I could say for sure, but I don't have a good explanation. The suggestion of a Levantine shift compared to other islanders is a pretty clear pattern with him, though. His simulated 23andme ancestral breakdown and DMXX's simulation of his genome both reflect that. That said, I don't know how much stock we can put in parsing fine-scale ancestry in mere simulations. This neat Vahaduo tool does add to the pile of evidence that the Near East shift is real. So what accounts for it? Well, maybe my father just has extra Levantine relative to the average Dodecanese, but is still within the range of variation. Or maybe he had a Cypriot grandmother or the like.

The sad truth is I don't know where his family was from exactly and likely never will. No one has seen or heard from him in 34 years (when I was born). All I know is what my mother knows about him, which isn't much. I don't even have a photo of the guy. His name was Yiannis Thomakos, son of Ilias and Paraskevi. I was very nearly named Ilias myself (in the Greek tradition) but my mom vetoed that. Yiannis' family lived in Athens while he was in America. Obviously the genetics don't match an Attic origin for the family, so I strongly suspect they were from Karpathos originally-- easily the most common source of Greek immigration in my area. Word of mouth among Karpathian family/friends might have convinced him to come to Central Florida for economic opportunities. Alternatively, maybe he had no roots in Karpathos at all and came from a different island or has complex inter-Greek ancestry; I'll never know for sure. A mostly Aegean origin for his ancestry is clear enough, in any case. I've asked the Greeks around here to see if anyone knew him, but haven't had any luck; it was a long time ago. I was encouraged by a local Greek restaurateur to go on this Greek show which reunites estranged relatives. :lol:

23abc
11-18-2020, 12:11 AM
I wish I could say for sure, but I don't have a good explanation. The suggestion of a Levantine shift compared to other islanders is a pretty clear pattern with him, though. His simulated 23andme ancestral breakdown and DMXX's simulation of his genome both reflect that. That said, I don't know how much stock we can put in parsing fine-scale ancestry in mere simulations. This neat Vahaduo tool does add to the pile of evidence that the Near East shift is real. So what accounts for it? Well, maybe my father just has extra Levantine relative to the average Dodecanese, but is still within the range of variation. Or maybe he had a Cypriot grandmother or the like.

The sad truth is I don't know where his family was from exactly and likely never will. No one has seen or heard from him in 34 years (when I was born). All I know is what my mother knows about him, which isn't much. I don't even have a photo of the guy. His name was Yiannis Thomakos, son of Ilias and Paraskevi. I was very nearly named Ilias myself (in the Greek tradition) but my mom vetoed that. Yiannis' family lived in Athens while he was in America. Obviously the genetics don't match an Attic origin for the family, so I strongly suspect they were from Karpathos originally-- easily the most common source of Greek immigration in my area. Word of mouth among Karpathian family/friends might have convinced him to come to Central Florida for economic opportunities. Alternatively, maybe he had no roots in Karpathos at all and came from a different island or has complex inter-Greek ancestry; I'll never know for sure. A mostly Aegean origin for his ancestry is clear enough, in any case. I've asked the Greeks around here to see if anyone knew him, but haven't had any luck; it was a long time ago. I was encouraged by a local Greek restaurateur to go on this Greek show which reunites estranged relatives. :lol:

That's very interesting. How many commercial DNA sites have you got your DNA on? And on those sites, do you get many relatives from Karparthos? Compared to me, my mother's ancestry is very unclear apart from having distant matches from Rhodes and Symi. I can see a West Asian shift in the autosomal but it's completely unexplained by the relative matches, since there is zero matches with Anatolian or Pontic Greeks in there.

For reference, this was how my comparison looked like:

Distance difference: ( AC - BC ) ↑
A: Me
B: Mother
C: ↴
-0.01537953 Greek_Kos
-0.01340351 ITA_Collegno_MA_o1
-0.01328528 TUR_Isparta_EBA
-0.01289114 ITA_Rome_Imperial
-0.01230623 ITA_Prenestini_tribe_IA_o
-0.01209908 Ashkenazi_Germany
-0.01149059 Palestinian_Beit_Sahour
-0.01137413 Levant_LBN_MA_o3
-0.01120556 ITA_Tivoli_Renaissance
-0.01105848 Italian_Jew
-0.01015114 TUR_Tell_Kurdu_MC
-0.00980910 Italian_Campania
-0.00974164 Levant_Beirut_ERoman
-0.00972311 Maltese
-0.00969840 MAR_LN
-0.00967502 IND_Roopkund_B
-0.00950763 Cypriot
-0.00935685 Italian_Calabria

So there is also a Levantine shift for my father, but having Greek_Kos seems to be the main difference, although I cannot test him to be sure of the exact admixture.

I wonder what the ethnic origin of these ITA_Collegno_MA_o1 samples were? They seem very similar to Dodecanese islanders and there are 3 of them with pretty much the same admixture, so they can't just be some fluke mix like some _o samples are.

Andrewid
11-18-2020, 12:14 AM
A mostly Aegean origin for his ancestry is clear enough, in any case. I've asked the Greeks around here to see if anyone knew him, but haven't had any luck; it was a long time ago. I was encouraged by a local Greek restaurateur to go on this Greek show which reunites estranged relatives. :lol:

Ah that's 'Pame Paketo' on Alfa, which has now been cancelled. It was my mum's favourite show and a guaranteed tear jerker. It has now been reincarnated on Open TV as 'A Letter For You' with the same host Vicky Hatzivasiliou. Michali they do a lot of research, so it may well be worth trying! Now your story would definitely get my blessed mother to pour her eyes out!:)

Johnny ola
11-18-2020, 12:19 AM
I wish I could say for sure, but I don't have a good explanation. The suggestion of a Levantine shift compared to other islanders is a pretty clear pattern with him, though. His simulated 23andme ancestral breakdown and DMXX's simulation of his genome both reflect that. That said, I don't know how much stock we can put in parsing fine-scale ancestry in mere simulations. This neat Vahaduo tool does add to the pile of evidence that the Near East shift is real. So what accounts for it? Well, maybe my father just has extra Levantine relative to the average Dodecanese, but is still within the range of variation. Or maybe he had a Cypriot grandmother or the like.

The sad truth is I don't know where his family was from exactly and likely never will. No one has seen or heard from him in 34 years (when I was born). All I know is what my mother knows about him, which isn't much. I don't even have a photo of the guy. His name was Yiannis Thomakos, son of Ilias and Paraskevi. I was very nearly named Ilias myself (in the Greek tradition) but my mom vetoed that. Yiannis' family lived in Athens while he was in America. Obviously the genetics don't match an Attic origin for the family, so I strongly suspect they were from Karpathos originally-- easily the most common source of Greek immigration in my area. Word of mouth among Karpathian family/friends might have convinced him to come to Central Florida for economic opportunities. Alternatively, maybe he had no roots in Karpathos at all and came from a different island or has complex inter-Greek ancestry; I'll never know for sure. A mostly Aegean origin for his ancestry is clear enough, in any case. I've asked the Greeks around here to see if anyone knew him, but haven't had any luck; it was a long time ago. I was encouraged by a local Greek restaurateur to go on this Greek show which reunites estranged relatives. :lol:

His surname it is Moriopoulos or you give it yourself?

Greekscholar
11-18-2020, 12:54 AM
My mom is Northwest Euro. This is how the program accounts for my Greek half:

Distance difference: ( AC - BC ) ↑
A: Mike_M_scaled
B: Mikes_Mom_scaled
C: ↴
-0.06372450 Palestinian_Beit_Sahour
-0.06320805 Lebanese_Christian
-0.06314136 Ashkenazi_Germany
-0.06309543 Ashkenazi_Lithuania
-0.06306763 Druze
-0.06304680 Ashkenazi_Belarussia
-0.06304530 Cypriot
-0.06290918 Romaniote_Jew
-0.06261360 Syrian_Jew
-0.06251771 Lebanese_Druze
-0.06217817 Ashkenazi_Poland
-0.06217287 Ashkenazi_Russia
-0.06215297 Italian_Jew
-0.06208547 Greek_Kos
-0.06194115 Lebanese_Muslim
-0.06165432 Samaritan
-0.06163344 Ashkenazi_Ukraine
-0.06148219 Sephardic_Jew
-0.06136954 Iraqi_Jew
-0.06122464 Karaite_Egypt
-0.06102955 Greek_Crete
-0.06079420 Italian_Basilicata
-0.06076801 Italian_Calabria
-0.06073786 Italian_Campania
-0.06009935 Libyan_Jew

Well, maybe we are in the same boat, literally or metaphorically, with these Levant populations. Does your phased G25 Greek half show those same Levant populations in your (AC - BC) when compared to other Greeks?

Michalis Moriopoulos
11-18-2020, 04:23 AM
That's very interesting. How many commercial DNA sites have you got your DNA on? And on those sites, do you get many relatives from Karparthos? Compared to me, my mother's ancestry is very unclear apart from having distant matches from Rhodes and Symi. I can see a West Asian shift in the autosomal but it's completely unexplained by the relative matches, since there is zero matches with Anatolian or Pontic Greeks in there.

...

I wonder what the ethnic origin of these ITA_Collegno_MA_o1 samples were? They seem very similar to Dodecanese islanders and there are 3 of them with pretty much the same admixture, so they can't just be some fluke mix like some _o samples are.

I've only done 23andme. From memory my Greek matches are from all over Greece. Doesn't seem to be any regional rhyme or reason to it.

As for Collegno, I think they were probably just Romans in the service of the Langobards. When the Collegno study first came out, everybody assumed those outliers were Greeks. But then the Rome study dropped and you had all those Central Italian East Meds clustering in basically the same place. So it's more parsimonious to assume they were Romans IMO.


Ah that's 'Pame Paketo' on Alfa, which has now been cancelled. It was my mum's favourite show and a guaranteed tear jerker. It has now been reincarnated on Open TV as 'A Letter For You' with the same host Vicky Hatzivasiliou. Michali they do a lot of research, so it may well be worth trying! Now your story would definitely get my blessed mother to pour her eyes out!:)

Hah! With respect to your mother, I'm allergic to that kind of TV sentimentality and sensationalism. It makes my skin crawl.

I'm not particularly interested in having a relationship with my biological father anyway; that ship has sailed. I'm much more interested in knowing about other members on that side of my family (e.g., half-siblings, nieces, nephews, etc.). Hopefully one day I'll get a match on 23andme.


His surname it is Moriopoulos or you give it yourself?

Nah, Moriopoulos is just a fun pen name I use to highlight my Greek heritage. It's based on a Hellenization of my legal surname (which I acquired from my adoptive father).


Well, maybe we are in the same boat, literally or metaphorically, with these Levant populations. Does your phased G25 Greek half show those same Levant populations in your (AC - BC) when compared to other Greeks?

I ran his simulated coordinates (graciously furnished to me by DMXX) compared to Greek Kos and it showed that he has more Iberomaurusian ancestry (of all things) compared to Koans. So I don't think the sim works for this kind of thing.

Johnny ola
11-18-2020, 06:16 AM
I've only done 23andme. From memory my Greek matches are from all over Greece. Doesn't seem to be any regional rhyme or reason to it.

As for Collegno, I think they were probably just Romans in the service of the Langobards. When the Collegno study first came out, everybody assumed those outliers were Greeks. But then the Rome study dropped and you had all those Central Italian East Meds clustering in basically the same place. So it's more parsimonious to assume they were Romans IMO.



Hah! With respect to your mother, I'm allergic to that kind of TV sentimentality and sensationalism. It makes my skin crawl.

I'm not particularly interested in having a relationship with my biological father anyway; that ship has sailed. I'm much more interested in knowing about other members on that side of my family (e.g., half-siblings, nieces, nephews, etc.). Hopefully one day I'll get a match on 23andme.



Nah, Moriopoulos is just a fun pen name I use to highlight my Greek heritage. It's based on a Hellenization of my legal surname (which I acquired from my adoptive father).



I ran his simulated coordinates (graciously furnished to me by DMXX) compared to Greek Kos and it showed that he has more Iberomaurusian ancestry (of all things) compared to Koans. So I don't think the sim works for this kind of thing.

Nice. Michali his surname is Thomakos? If this is his real surname, keep in mind that such surnames in Greece have origins in Laconia and more Specific in Mani.Surname's ending With 'akos' have prolly Laconian origins.He might have a distant Maniot/Laconian ancestry mixed With Greek islander.

Andrewid
11-18-2020, 09:48 AM
Hah! With respect to your mother, I'm allergic to that kind of TV sentimentality and sensationalism. It makes my skin crawl.

I'm not particularly interested in having a relationship with my biological father anyway; that ship has sailed. I'm much more interested in knowing about other members on that side of my family (e.g., half-siblings, nieces, nephews, etc.). Hopefully one day I'll get a match on 23andme.




I've informed my mother that she'll have to find her tear jerking fix elsewhere;)

If your father is from Karpathos, everything I've heard and seen of the island makes the place somewhere that should be on all our bucket lists. In Olympi, the people still often prefer to wear traditional island dress. I've an Albanian friend who lived there for 10 years and always raved about the place. A Cypriot friend of mine got Karpathos as a first hit on one of his Ph2ter heat maps. One of his photos from a visit there (an amazing photographer) made it to the front cover of a CD of Karpathos music.

Getting DNA matches with relatives is obviously the most ideal solution. My quest is still to find relatives from Symi (known, comparatively recent, ancestry) and Trapezounta (purported, & probably mid to late 1700s). That's why I'm always interested to see if there's even a slightest shift towards Trapezounta in my father's results.

Riverman
11-18-2020, 11:06 AM
His name was Yiannis Thomakos, son of Ilias and Paraskevi. I was very nearly named Ilias myself (in the Greek tradition) but my mom vetoed that. Yiannis' family lived in Athens while he was in America. Obviously the genetics don't match an Attic origin for the family, so I strongly suspect they were from Karpathos originally-- easily the most common source of Greek immigration in my area.

The surname seems to be centered on the mainland and the Peloponnese, not on the islands by the way:
https://forebears.io/surnames/thomakos

But it might be a common derivate and the data base of Forebears is certainly never complete, so probably not that conclusive after all, even though it supports an Attic origin, at least for the paternal line.

23abc
11-18-2020, 02:03 PM
The surname seems to be centered on the mainland and the Peloponnese, not on the islands by the way:
https://forebears.io/surnames/thomakos

But it might be a common derivate and the data base of Forebears is certainly never complete, so probably not that conclusive after all, even though it supports an Attic origin, at least for the paternal line.

I think this site might work better for Greek surnames https://apps.vrisko.gr/apo-pou-krataei-i-skoufia-sou , although I'm not sure how accurate it is.

https://imgur.com/DVZqWvE.png

According to that, it peaks in Gythio, Laconia. Your haplogroup might be Maniot in origin.

I think if your father was fully from Karparthos it would be evident from the relative matches. The Dodecanese islands seem to be very endogamous so everyone on the island is related if it's small. On the DNA websites I have hundreds of 2nd-3rd cousin level matches from my father's side, and I don't see any recent common links with any of them so they're all related many times repeated rather than being real 2nd-3rd cousins.

Maybe it's different for Karparthos, but if the matches are coming from different places I think it hints that his ancestors come from many places rather than coming from just one place. I think the 23andMe autosomal prediction can tell you too, lots of half Dodecanese only score Italian + WANA and zero Greek & Balkan. I don't know what you score on 23andMe, but if your Greek & Balkan is significantly high he can't be a full Dodecanese islander.

Riverman
11-18-2020, 02:18 PM
I think this site might work better for Greek surnames https://apps.vrisko.gr/apo-pou-krataei-i-skoufia-sou , although I'm not sure how accurate it is.


Seems it works with similar data, a lot is based on telephone or address books. Its incomplete either way, but it gives you an impression about the distribution. Some ancestry test sites use similar tools, its all largely the same. I did check some of my ancestral surnames with such tools in addition to historical data bases, and if comparing both, I always did get at least one spelling form which fits to the supposed region or a neighbouring one. If not, the supposed ancestral origin or spelling was wrong. Spelling can change of course.

If his family lived in the area of Athens, he might have had ancestry from different places of the Greek speaking world.

Greekscholar
11-18-2020, 06:39 PM
I think this site might work better for Greek surnames https://apps.vrisko.gr/apo-pou-krataei-i-skoufia-sou , although I'm not sure how accurate it is.

https://imgur.com/DVZqWvE.png

According to that, it peaks in Gythio, Laconia. Your haplogroup might be Maniot in origin.

I think if your father was fully from Karparthos it would be evident from the relative matches. The Dodecanese islands seem to be very endogamous so everyone on the island is related if it's small. On the DNA websites I have hundreds of 2nd-3rd cousin level matches from my father's side, and I don't see any recent common links with any of them so they're all related many times repeated rather than being real 2nd-3rd cousins.

Maybe it's different for Karparthos, but if the matches are coming from different places I think it hints that his ancestors come from many places rather than coming from just one place. I think the 23andMe autosomal prediction can tell you too, lots of half Dodecanese only score Italian + WANA and zero Greek & Balkan. I don't know what you score on 23andMe, but if your Greek & Balkan is significantly high he can't be a full Dodecanese islander.

Working backwards would be my suggestion (if you haven't already done so, Michalis) and try to find some Karparthos Islanders who have already tested, and look at their matches to see how many total people have tested from the island, and how (if) they cluster. If there is as much endogamy as other small islands AND there have been enough islanders who have tested, the shared matches list will clearly show the cluster.

Michalis Moriopoulos
11-19-2020, 12:57 PM
If your father is from Karpathos, everything I've heard and seen of the island makes the place somewhere that should be on all our bucket lists. In Olympi, the people still often prefer to wear traditional island dress. I've an Albanian friend who lived there for 10 years and always raved about the place. A Cypriot friend of mine got Karpathos as a first hit on one of his Ph2ter heat maps. One of his photos from a visit there (an amazing photographer) made it to the front cover of a CD of Karpathos music.

Yes, it's clearly a beautiful place.


Nice. Michali his surname is Thomakos? If this is his real surname, keep in mind that such surnames in Greece have origins in Laconia and more Specific in Mani.Surname's ending With 'akos' have prolly Laconian origins.He might have a distant Maniot/Laconian ancestry mixed With Greek islander.


The surname seems to be centered on the mainland and the Peloponnese, not on the islands by the way:
https://forebears.io/surnames/thomakos

But it might be a common derivate and the data base of Forebears is certainly never complete, so probably not that conclusive after all, even though it supports an Attic origin, at least for the paternal line.


I think this site might work better for Greek surnames https://apps.vrisko.gr/apo-pou-krataei-i-skoufia-sou , although I'm not sure how accurate it is.

According to that, it peaks in Gythio, Laconia. Your haplogroup might be Maniot in origin.

Thanks, guys. I have indeed looked into the patronym (Θωμάκος) and wondered if a Maniot connection was possible or even likely. My Greek islander ancestry is obvious, but I wouldn't be surprised if there is more to the story.

From what I can tell, J-L26 is the same subclade found in the only Mycenaean male (from the Peloponnesus no less) that we have. If this is common in Mani, that would be interesting to know. I'm not a Y-hap anorak and haven't had my lineage analyzed in much depth.


Working backwards would be my suggestion (if you haven't already done so, Michalis) and try to find some Karparthos Islanders who have already tested, and look at their matches to see how many total people have tested from the island, and how (if) they cluster. If there is as much endogamy as other small islands AND there have been enough islanders who have tested, the shared matches list will clearly show the cluster.


I think if your father was fully from Karparthos it would be evident from the relative matches. The Dodecanese islands seem to be very endogamous so everyone on the island is related if it's small. On the DNA websites I have hundreds of 2nd-3rd cousin level matches from my father's side, and I don't see any recent common links with any of them so they're all related many times repeated rather than being real 2nd-3rd cousins.

Maybe it's different for Karparthos, but if the matches are coming from different places I think it hints that his ancestors come from many places rather than coming from just one place. I think the 23andMe autosomal prediction can tell you too, lots of half Dodecanese only score Italian + WANA and zero Greek & Balkan. I don't know what you score on 23andMe, but if your Greek & Balkan is significantly high he can't be a full Dodecanese islander.

Yeah, I'm not getting any specific matches from Karpathos or much from the Aegean in general. Most of my closer matches (3rd and 4th cousins) are from the Peloponnese. A few list ancestry from Athens, Crete, North Aegean, and even Smyrna. Of the Peloponnesians, there are a few Spartans and a couple of Maniots, including apprently a full-blooded Maniot with all four grandparents from Selegoudi. This makes some kind of Mani connection pretty likely, I suppose. That would be personally gratifying because I think Maniots are the coolest Balkan Greeks.

23andme's regional analysis of my "Greek & Balkan" ancestry:

https://i.imgur.com/ojfilOx.png

That's great, but my father's autosomal ancestry is still very insular-looking overall and in fact on the Near East-shifted side. 23andme predicts the part of my ancestry owed to him like so:

https://i.imgur.com/SjjquGq.png

The conundrum is that my/his West Asian is high even for an Aegean Greek. I'm only half-Greek yet 23andme assigns me more West Asian than even some full-blooded Aegeans. This has always made me wonder if there's Cypriot in the woodpile. Romaniote or recent Near Eastern ancestry doesn't seem likely to me, but maybe a Maronite ancestor? I don't know-- that seems like a stretch. It could also be that this more Near East-heavy profile is common in the islands and we just haven't tested enough people yet. There are no Rhodians, Karpathians, or Kastellorizans in the G25. That's where I'd expect to see autosomal profiles like my father's show up.

EDIT: Found this (https://www.reddit.com/r/23andme/comments/8j33m3/results_just_arrived_can_anyone_help_me_analyze/) on Reddit. This belongs to someone with ancestry from Karpathos and Rhodes:

https://i.redd.it/30pkrluyulx01.png

Riverman
11-19-2020, 01:46 PM
You surely know better, but just telling you my personal opinion, it just looks to me like you have a complex Greek ancestry. Probably something along the lines of Peloponnese (paternal line) with islander and Anatolian ancestry? People could migrate in strange patterns. And Athens would be an ideal place for such mixtures to become reality. I'm actually surprised by your strong result for the Peloponnes on 23andme. This gives the surname distribution and the conclusions derived from it much more credibility. I don't think you can have only islander ancestry.

dosas
11-19-2020, 02:05 PM
I wouldn't put too much stock on 23ame's areas, at least for Greece.

Both my father and I get the Peloponnese and we have zero links to that place. Below the Peloponnese, they gave us every single area/prefecture in the map, lol. :dance::heh:


41263 41264

23abc
11-19-2020, 02:10 PM
.

Your result looks similar to one of my kids, except they score much lower Greek & Balkan, and more Italian. But this does look close to what a half Dodecanese scores if they're phased, except the Greek & Balkan would be a little lower.

At least Southern Aegean is your second strongest region, but it's not strongly coloured which is weird. It's possible your islander ancestry is from a place which isn't common in the diaspora and so you get no relatives or something.

By the way, in the current 23andMe versions, the average in Dodecanese is about 50% WANA and 50% Southern European, nearly all of which is Italian. Some people can score up to 70% WANA though, and others more Southern European. Greek & Balkan higher than 15% is usually a sign of admixture from somewhere else.

As for the result you found on Reddit, they had a slightly newer version: https://www.reddit.com/r/23andme/comments/99pceb/how_did_my_results_change_so_drastically_is_the/.

There is also this v5.9 Karpathos result: https://www.reddit.com/r/23andme/comments/jipahv/v_59_greek_from_karpathos_island/

Also someone was posting more Karpathos results during the period of 'fresh v5.9' but they seem to be all deleted. They pretty much looked the same as results from Kalymnos, which shows that the Dodecanse don't differ much from each other. The only island that I've seen that is similar to the Dodecanese is Chios, the rest are quite different. Some people in Crete can score 50% WANA too, but they score more Greek & Balkan than Italian, at least from what I've seen.

23abc
11-19-2020, 02:33 PM
You surely know better, but just telling you my personal opinion, it just looks to me like you have a complex Greek ancestry. Probably something along the lines of Peloponnese (paternal line) with islander and Anatolian ancestry? People could migrate in strange patterns. And Athens would be an ideal place for such mixtures to become reality. I'm actually surprised by your strong result for the Peloponnes on 23andme. This gives the surname distribution and the conclusions derived from it much more credibility. I don't think you can have only islander ancestry.

I agree, but I'd like to add that Peloponnese is probably the easiest Greek & Balkan region to score even with 0% Greek ancestry. I've seen full Albanians, Romanians and Bulgarians score Peloponnese as their first region and they don't know of having any Greek ancestors.

This is mine:

https://imgur.com/PYQdRSH.png

So if I for some reason was unfortunate and had no relative matches coming from the area my ancestry is from, I would have Peloponnese as first too. And I don't think I have any recent ancestors from there at all. Luckily that isn't an issue for me since there's countless people from Kalymnos tested and I match most of them.

Riverman
11-19-2020, 03:07 PM
I agree, but I'd like to add that Peloponnese is probably the easiest Greek & Balkan region to score even with 0% Greek ancestry. I've seen full Albanians, Romanians and Bulgarians score Peloponnese as their first region and they don't know of having any Greek ancestors.

This is mine:

So if I for some reason was unfortunate and had no relative matches coming from the area my ancestry is from, I would have Peloponnese as first too. And I don't think I have any recent ancestors from there at all. Luckily that isn't an issue for me since there's countless people from Kalymnos tested and I match most of them.

I guess that's like Berlin for me, its about relatives which moved there, rather than me having ancestry from that city. But even then, you have islander ancestry and your Peloponnese is way lower than that of Michalis. And for him its now five strikes:
- surname distribution
- relative matches
- 23andme regional assignment
- higher Balkan (?) ancestral component
- actual known residence of the ancestor

On its own, every point wouldn't mean too much, but taken together, it might be more conclusive.

23abc
11-19-2020, 03:26 PM
I guess that's like Berlin for me, its about relatives which moved there, rather than me having ancestry from that city. But even then, you have islander ancestry and your Peloponnese is way lower than that of Michalis. And for him its now five strikes:
- surname distribution
- relative matches
- 23andme regional assignment
- higher Balkan (?) ancestral component
- actual known residence of the ancestor

On its own, every point wouldn't mean too much, but taken together, it might be more conclusive.

For sure, I agree again with your first point that his ancestry is probably more complex than simply being from Karpathos. Not ruling that out, but I think he probably does have some ancestry from the mainland if that information about his father is correct.

The way to know how strong regions are is not by that image I posted, by the way. You need to inspect the HTML page of the Ancestry Composition page and search for the 'populationTree' variable. There it will tell you the exact amount.


"matched_countries": [{
"region_ibd_country_code": "GRC",
"name": "Greece",
"short_name": "Greece",
"demonym": "Greek",
"contextual_name": "Greece",
"description": null,
"iso3": "GRC",
"iso2": "GR",
"aggregations": [{
"num_gp": 237,
"subregion_id": "gr:southern_aegean:2",
"num_relatives": 99,
"state": "Southern Aegean"
}, {
"num_gp": 35,
"subregion_id": "gr:peloponnese:2",
"num_relatives": 23,
"state": "Peloponnese"
}, {
"num_gp": 34,
"subregion_id": "gr:northern_aegean:2",
"num_relatives": 18,
"state": "Northern Aegean"
}, {
"num_gp": 22,
"subregion_id": "gr:crete_region:1",
"num_relatives": 10,
"state": "Crete Region"
}, {
"num_gp": 17,
"subregion_id": "gr:central_greece:2",
"num_relatives": 10,
"state": "Central Greece"
}, {
"num_gp": 13,
"subregion_id": "gr:decentralized_administration_of_attica:1",
"num_relatives": 8,
"state": "Decentralized Administration of Attica"
}, {
"num_gp": 9,
"subregion_id": "gr:thessalia:2",
"num_relatives": 6,
"state": "Thessalia"
}, {
"num_gp": 7,
"subregion_id": "gr:ionian_islands:2",
"num_relatives": 5,
"state": "Ionian Islands"
}],
"match_strength": 5,
"is_ibd_match": true
}]

"matched_countries": [{
"region_ibd_country_code": "TUR_ANATOLIAN_AC45",
"name": "Turkey (western provinces)",
"short_name": "Turkey (western provinces)",
"demonym": "Turkish",
"contextual_name": "Turkey (western provinces)",
"description": null,
"iso3": "TUR_ANATOLIAN_AC45",
"iso2": "TR",
"aggregations": [{
"num_gp": 5,
"subregion_id": "tr:kayseri_province:1",
"num_relatives": 2,
"state": "Kayseri Province"
}],
"match_strength": -1,
"is_ibd_match": true
}]

Riverman
11-19-2020, 03:53 PM
For sure, I agree again with your first point that his ancestry is probably more complex than simply being from Karpathos. Not ruling that out, but I think he probably does have some ancestry from the mainland if that information about his father is correct.

The way to know how strong regions are is not by that image I posted, by the way. You need to inspect the HTML page of the Ancestry Composition page and search for the 'populationTree' variable. There it will tell you the exact amount.

It tells me just the relatives found from that region. But their algorithm does weigh it additionally, probably in combination with ancestral components? Its in any case not No. of relatives alone which determines the strengths, its at least better fiting ones too imho. Otherwise people from the region with a very different genetic profile could be used as a reference. Knowing 23andme, that's always possible, but it shouldn't be the rule.

23abc
11-19-2020, 04:00 PM
It tells me just the relatives found from that region. But their algorithm does weigh it additionally, probably in combination with ancestral components? Its in any case not No. of relatives alone which determines the strengths, its at least better fiting ones too imho. Otherwise people from the region with a very different genetic profile could be used as a reference. Knowing 23andme, that's always possible, but it shouldn't be the rule.

No, it uses this data I posted directly to make the shade the image. The darkness is based on ratios, i.e. number of relatives from subregion / number of relatives from macroregion. So my Southern Aegean will always be much darker than the rest because of the ratio leaning heavily towards it. Also my Kayseri is as dark as it can be on the image but it only found 2 matches from there. The filtering occurs before this data is sent to browser, which is why Dodecanese islanders no longer score Italian regions in v5.9, even though I had Calabrian/Siclian relative numbers much higher than this Kayseri number which obviously has zero filtering applied to it.

Greekscholar
11-19-2020, 04:03 PM
I think the cousin matches tell the tale. 3rd and 4th cousins from Mani/Peloponnese (closest Greek matches for Michalis, right?) likely didn't immigrate there. It is far more likely Michalis' ancestor moved from there to Athens a couple of generations ago and those cousins show the common great-great-grandparents from Mani.

It is also important to remember that after the first generation, inheritance from particular ancestors is highly random. A 30/20 genetic split between grandparents is rather common. If some Dodecanese islands score 70% WANA, it is possible that one grandparent of Aegean/Anatolian ancestry could be responsible for Michalis' 22%.

The absence of cousin clustering is the biggest mystery to me. It could be an undertested small island, or an Anatolian community that moved en masse to Athens, and perhaps sent very few people to America/Australia and other places where testing is common. It could also mean a bigger community (or island) with less endogamy. Dodecaneses shifted Cretan?

Riverman
11-19-2020, 04:03 PM
No, it uses this data I posted directly to make the shade the image. The darkness is based on ratios, i.e. number of relatives from subregion / number of relatives from macroregion. So my Southern Aegean will always be much darker than the rest because of the ratio leaning heavily towards it. Also my Kayseri is as dark as it can be on the image but it only found 2 matches from there. The filtering occurs before this data is sent to browser, which is why Dodecanese islanders no longer score Italian regions in v5.9, even though I had Calabrian/Siclian relative numbers much higher than this Kayseri number which obviously has zero filtering applied to it.

Ok, good to know, thought there is more to it, apparently there is not. ;)
This really limits its validity.

Johnny ola
11-19-2020, 04:09 PM
Michali.. surname, yDNA and autosomal Screams either South Peloponnese(prolly Maniot) or Greek islands(inclunding Crete).Also keep in mind that Maniots and Laconians in general have migrated to islands during the periods. There are many Greek islanders(included Cretans) With Maniot/Laconian roots. Also It might be a mixed situation. But anyway, without misunderstanding and i know that it dosnt concern me at all,but if i was you, i would focus more to your mother's genetics. And Btw, she has Nice genetics.... since she is Anglo-Saxon. Focus there Bro!!!

J Man
11-19-2020, 04:09 PM
Yes, it's clearly a beautiful place.







Thanks, guys. I have indeed looked into the patronym (Θωμάκος) and wondered if a Maniot connection was possible or even likely. My Greek islander ancestry is obvious, but I wouldn't be surprised if there is more to the story.

From what I can tell, J-L26 is the same subclade found in the only Mycenaean male (from the Peloponnesus no less) that we have. If this is common in Mani, that would be interesting to know. I'm not a Y-hap anorak and haven't had my lineage analyzed in much depth.





Yeah, I'm not getting any specific matches from Karpathos or much from the Aegean in general. Most of my closer matches (3rd and 4th cousins) are from the Peloponnese. A few list ancestry from Athens, Crete, North Aegean, and even Smyrna. Of the Peloponnesians, there are a few Spartans and a couple of Maniots, including apprently a full-blooded Maniot with all four grandparents from Selegoudi. This makes some kind of Mani connection pretty likely, I suppose. That would be personally gratifying because I think Maniots are the coolest Balkan Greeks.

23andme's regional analysis of my "Greek & Balkan" ancestry:

https://i.imgur.com/ojfilOx.png

That's great, but my father's autosomal ancestry is still very insular-looking overall and in fact on the Near East-shifted side. 23andme predicts the part of my ancestry owed to him like so:

https://i.imgur.com/SjjquGq.png

The conundrum is that my/his West Asian is high even for an Aegean Greek. I'm only half-Greek yet 23andme assigns me more West Asian than even some full-blooded Aegeans. This has always made me wonder if there's Cypriot in the woodpile. Romaniote or recent Near Eastern ancestry doesn't seem likely to me, but maybe a Maronite ancestor? I don't know-- that seems like a stretch. It could also be that this more Near East-heavy profile is common in the islands and we just haven't tested enough people yet. There are no Rhodians, Karpathians, or Kastellorizans in the G25. That's where I'd expect to see autosomal profiles like my father's show up.

EDIT: Found this (https://www.reddit.com/r/23andme/comments/8j33m3/results_just_arrived_can_anyone_help_me_analyze/) on Reddit. This belongs to someone with ancestry from Karpathos and Rhodes:

https://i.redd.it/30pkrluyulx01.png

I remember a number of Y-DNA samples from Mani that were posted in another thread on this forum and quite a few of them are J2a. Do you have cousin matches on 23andme with Maniots?

23abc
11-19-2020, 04:11 PM
Ok, good to know, thought there is more to it, apparently there is not. ;)
This really limits its validity.

Yep, and if 'num_gp' is standing for 'number of grandparents' (which I strongly believe it does), it mean all of these could be just because they are half Dodecanese half something else and listed their grandparents like that. There is some common idea floating around that they only use people that list '4 grandparents' from a particular region for this relative sharing, but the 2 people from Kayseri I do match on my relatives list don't list 4 grandparents. 1 lists 2 and the other lists 3, which matches the num_gp for Kayseri being 5 here. So yeah, this method has false positives more than AncestryDNA's region system but I don't mind it as AncestryDNA's one is useless (it can only tell me ancestors came from either Albania, Greece or Turkey... how useless!)

Riverman
11-19-2020, 04:26 PM
Yep, and if 'num_gp' is standing for 'number of grandparents' (which I strongly believe it does)

It does, like for me:

"num_gp": 6, "subregion_id": "de:hesse:1", "num_relatives": 3, "state": "Hesse"}

So 6 grandparents from 3 matches.


, it mean all of these could be just because they are half Dodecanese half something else and listed their grandparents like that. There is some common idea floating around that they only use people that list '4 grandparents' from a particular region for this relative sharing, but the 2 people from Kayseri I do match on my relatives list don't list 4 grandparents

They seem to use people with 2 gp, whether they also use some with one is not possible to recalculate with the code for me, unless someone has "1 gp from 1 relative" for a region - if they use that too...

The strange thing which made me believe there is more to it is, that I have people with 4 gp from one proven ancestral region of mine, but they don't give me the region. In another case I'm not even sure I have enough matches from that region they put me. But apparently, its very simple maths plus a filter algorithm, like you suggested.

23abc
11-19-2020, 04:46 PM
It does, like for me:


So 6 grandparents from 3 matches.



They seem to use people with 2 gp, whether they also use some with one is not possible to recalculate with the code for me, unless someone has "1 gp from 1 relative" for a region - if they use that too...

The strange thing which made me believe there is more to it is, that I have people with 4 gp from one proven ancestral region of mine, but they don't give me the region. In another case I'm not even sure I have enough matches from that region they put me. But apparently, its very simple maths plus a filter algorithm, like you suggested.

The 'simple maths' part is simply the shading of the regions using a ratio of ibd matches from one place to total ibd matches. Obviously there are more complex filters in play during the actual computation of ibd matches. I have matches that have 4 grandparents from some place and then I don't score that region. Similarly I've scored regions in the past (which are now gone) where I couldn't find anyone with that region on my actual relatives list (Emilia Romagna).

Michalis Moriopoulos
11-24-2020, 03:24 PM
I remember a number of Y-DNA samples from Mani that were posted in another thread on this forum and quite a few of them are J2a. Do you have cousin matches on 23andme with Maniots?

Yep!


You surely know better, but just telling you my personal opinion, it just looks to me like you have a complex Greek ancestry. Probably something along the lines of Peloponnese (paternal line) with islander and Anatolian ancestry? People could migrate in strange patterns. And Athens would be an ideal place for such mixtures to become reality. I'm actually surprised by your strong result for the Peloponnes on 23andme. This gives the surname distribution and the conclusions derived from it much more credibility. I don't think you can have only islander ancestry.

That very well may be the case. I thought the inclusion of Rhodes into the G25 might shed some light, but my father's simulated coordinates still show closest distances to the Ashkenazi, Romaniote, and only then the Kos averages. The Rhodians don't show up high on the list even when I run distances to individuals. Again, though, it is just a sim. Who knows how a real genome would turn out.


Your result looks similar to one of my kids, except they score much lower Greek & Balkan, and more Italian. But this does look close to what a half Dodecanese scores if they're phased, except the Greek & Balkan would be a little lower.

At least Southern Aegean is your second strongest region, but it's not strongly coloured which is weird. It's possible your islander ancestry is from a place which isn't common in the diaspora and so you get no relatives or something.


The absence of cousin clustering is the biggest mystery to me. It could be an undertested small island, or an Anatolian community that moved en masse to Athens, and perhaps sent very few people to America/Australia and other places where testing is common. It could also mean a bigger community (or island) with less endogamy. Dodecaneses shifted Cretan?

Yes, that is strange, isn't it? I would expect to see higher relative sharing in the Southern Aegean. Perhaps the ancestry is from a more obscure area. Or maybe there is some significant Cappadocian ancestry in the mix? I thought that might explain the seeming Near Eastern shift of my father's sim in PCA:

https://i.imgur.com/ATXvEYH.png

Overall though he does seem to be quite Dodecanese-like autosomally, so I'm just not sure. It's quite the mystery. Maybe I shouldn't make too much of a simulation. Perhaps his real genome wouldn't be so outlying and cluster more elegantly with the Dodecanese samples.


By the way, in the current 23andMe versions, the average in Dodecanese is about 50% WANA and 50% Southern European, nearly all of which is Italian. Some people can score up to 70% WANA though, and others more Southern European. Greek & Balkan higher than 15% is usually a sign of admixture from somewhere else.

Thanks for the info. I now feel more confident that my high WANA score (and hence my father's even higher WANA) is not necessarily due to exotic ancestry. My mother doesn't have any significant "West Asian," "Italian," or "Greek & Balkan" ancestry which means I inherited it all from him. So if I inherited ~22% WANA from him, then he was likely ~44% WANA himself. Based on what you've just shown me, that's apparently well in the range of Aegean islanders. Also based on my score, his "Italian" might hover somewhere around 20% and his "Greek & Balkan" ~16%. And the "Broadly Southern Euro" I inherited from him might amount be assigned on his end to ~14% extra "Italian" and/or "Balkan" ancestry, were his genome tested directly as opposed to inferred from mine. Obviously these numbers are rough approximations based on little more than doubling my regional scores, but I think they're close enough to what we'd see if I had his actual genome.


I guess that's like Berlin for me, its about relatives which moved there, rather than me having ancestry from that city. But even then, you have islander ancestry and your Peloponnese is way lower than that of Michalis. And for him its now five strikes:
- surname distribution
- relative matches
- 23andme regional assignment
- higher Balkan (?) ancestral component
- actual known residence of the ancestor

On its own, every point wouldn't mean too much, but taken together, it might be more conclusive.


I think the cousin matches tell the tale. 3rd and 4th cousins from Mani/Peloponnese (closest Greek matches for Michalis, right?) likely didn't immigrate there. It is far more likely Michalis' ancestor moved from there to Athens a couple of generations ago and those cousins show the common great-great-grandparents from Mani.


For sure, I agree again with your first point that his ancestry is probably more complex than simply being from Karpathos. Not ruling that out, but I think he probably does have some ancestry from the mainland if that information about his father is correct.

Indeed, I'm quite amendable to the idea that there might be some minor Balkan ancestry at play here. I looked at the 23andme code for my "Greek & Balkan" ancestry. Here are the specifics:


Peloponnese
num_gp: 77
num_relatives: 43

Southern Aegean
num_gp: 21,
num_relatives: 9

Attica
num_gp: 20,
num_relatives: 12

Northern Aegean
num_gp: 15
num_relatives: 7

Crete
num_gp: 13
num_relatives: 9

Ionian Islands
num_gp: 7
num_relatives: 5

Epirus
num_gp: 4
num_relatives: 2


Michali.. surname, yDNA and autosomal Screams either South Peloponnese(prolly Maniot) or Greek islands(inclunding Crete).Also keep in mind that Maniots and Laconians in general have migrated to islands during the periods. There are many Greek islanders(included Cretans) With Maniot/Laconian roots. Also It might be a mixed situation. But anyway, without misunderstanding and i know that it dosnt concern me at all,but if i was you, i would focus more to your mother's genetics. And Btw, she has Nice genetics.... since she is Anglo-Saxon. Focus there Bro!!!

I do think a mixed situation is likely based on what I've learned in this thread. I hope I can iron out the specifics one day.

And thanks for the compliment, bro, but let's get real. People of NW Euro descent like my mama are easily the most studied people on Planet Earth. Do they really need my attention? I'm naturally much more interested in understanding that side of my ancestry that makes me physically and genetically distinctive from most of the WASPs I interact with on a daily basis. And come on, who doesn't love being Greek? :D

J Man
11-24-2020, 03:54 PM
Yep!



That very well may be the case. I thought the inclusion of Rhodes into the G25 might shed some light, but my father's simulated coordinates still show closest distances to the Ashkenazi, Romaniote, and only then the Kos averages. The Rhodians don't show up high on the list even when I run distances to individuals. Again, though, it is just a sim. Who knows how a real genome would turn out.





Yes, that is strange, isn't it? I would expect to see higher relative sharing in the Southern Aegean. Perhaps the ancestry is from a more obscure area. Or maybe there is some significant Cappadocian ancestry in the mix? I thought that might explain the seeming Near Eastern shift of my father's sim in PCA:

https://i.imgur.com/ATXvEYH.png

Overall though he does seem to be quite Dodecanese-like autosomally, so I'm just not sure. It's quite the mystery. Maybe I shouldn't make too much of a simulation. Perhaps his real genome wouldn't be so outlying and cluster more elegantly with the Dodecanese samples.



Thanks for the info. I now feel more confident that my high WANA score (and hence my father's even higher WANA) is not necessarily due to exotic ancestry. My mother doesn't have any significant "West Asian," "Italian," or "Greek & Balkan" ancestry which means I inherited it all from him. So if I inherited ~22% WANA from him, then he was likely ~44% WANA himself. Based on what you've just shown me, that's apparently well in the range of Aegean islanders. Also based on my score, his "Italian" might hover somewhere around 20% and his "Greek & Balkan" ~16%. And the "Broadly Southern Euro" I inherited from him might amount be assigned on his end to ~14% extra "Italian" and/or "Balkan" ancestry, were his genome tested directly as opposed to inferred from mine. Obviously these numbers are rough approximations based on little more than doubling my regional scores, but I think they're close enough to what we'd see if I had his actual genome.







Indeed, I'm quite amendable to the idea that there might be some minor Balkan ancestry at play here. I looked at the 23andme code for my "Greek & Balkan" ancestry. Here are the specifics:


Peloponnese
num_gp: 77
num_relatives: 43

Southern Aegean
num_gp: 21,
num_relatives: 9

Attica
num_gp: 20,
num_relatives: 12

Northern Aegean
num_gp: 15
num_relatives: 7

Crete
num_gp: 13
num_relatives: 9

Ionian Islands
num_gp: 7
num_relatives: 5

Epirus
num_gp: 4
num_relatives: 2



I do think a mixed situation is likely based on what I've learned in this thread. I hope I can iron out the specifics one day.

And thanks for the compliment, bro, but let's get real. People of NW Euro descent like my mama are easily the most studied people on Planet Earth. Do they really need my attention? I'm naturally much more interested in understanding that side of my ancestry that makes me physically and genetically distinctive from most of the WASPs I interact with on a daily basis. And come on, who doesn't love being Greek? :D

What are the Y-DNA results of your Maniot matches?

losAntonis
11-28-2020, 01:01 PM
Regarding Y-haplogroups from Maniots.
I am from north Greece and we have a family legend, that my paternal line came from a certain family of Mani. (Now, proven by Y-DNA to be wrong.)
Therefore, I did test some people with this surname from Mani.
All of them were J2a, but all with different subclades. So, they have the same surname, without beeing related. One other, with same surname is G2a.

Johnny ola
11-28-2020, 04:51 PM
Regarding Y-haplogroups from Maniots.
I am from north Greece and we have a family legend, that my paternal line came from a certain family of Mani. (Now, proven by Y-DNA to be wrong.)
Therefore, I did test some people with this surname from Mani.
All of them were J2a, but all with different subclades. So, they have the same surname, without beeing related. One other, with same surname is G2a.

Do you know his G2a clade?

losAntonis
11-28-2020, 09:24 PM
Deleted

losAntonis
11-28-2020, 09:25 PM
Do you know his G2a clade?

41443

Based on Y37, predicted U1

J Man
11-28-2020, 09:49 PM
Regarding Y-haplogroups from Maniots.
I am from north Greece and we have a family legend, that my paternal line came from a certain family of Mani. (Now, proven by Y-DNA to be wrong.)
Therefore, I did test some people with this surname from Mani.
All of them were J2a, but all with different subclades. So, they have the same surname, without beeing related. One other, with same surname is G2a.

Very interesting! Thank you for sharing this. Do you know from where in Mani the J2a results that you tested come from?

Johnny ola
11-28-2020, 09:59 PM
41443

Based on Y37, predicted U1

Needs deeper testing. :\

losAntonis
11-29-2020, 01:19 AM
Needs deeper testing. :\

Indeed, everyone without NGS needs deeper testing.

Michalis Moriopoulos
11-30-2020, 02:10 AM
What are the Y-DNA results of your Maniot matches?

I wish I could say; the match from Selegoudi is female.

TonyC
11-30-2020, 02:35 PM
A historical question maybe off topic. The Greek Empuries sample is apparently of Phocaean Greek origin which was (based on something I read) settled by Phocians from Central Greece. Is there anything to the claim that the Phocians were a Doric tribe and is the Phocian—Phocaea connection accurate? The other question I have; is the Greek Empuries sample the closest thing we have to a typical classical age mainland Greek and how does it compare to the Mycenaean samples. If there was a discussion about this on another thread please indicate.

J Man
11-30-2020, 04:08 PM
A bit off topic as well but I hope that someone might have an answer. Traditionaly did the Maniots of Mani live in a tribal clan based society like the Montenegrins and Albanians?

TonyC
11-30-2020, 04:12 PM
A bit off topic as well but I hope that someone might have an answer. Traditionaly did the Maniots of Mani live in a tribal clan based society like the Montenegrins and Albanians?

I would guess so since my family (from Messinia) did. It was prevalent throughout the Peloponnese and mainland Greece.

J Man
11-30-2020, 04:36 PM
I would guess so since my family (from Messinia) did. It was prevalent throughout the Peloponnese and mainland Greece.

Your family was structured like a clan? A large extended patrilineal kinship group that cooperated together in various activities?

TonyC
11-30-2020, 05:58 PM
Your family was structured like a clan? A large extended patrilineal kinship group that cooperated together in various activities?
Yes but I’m referring to my grandfather’s village in the late 19th/early 20th century. He left Greece for the Western US (Wyoming) after settling a clan vendetta in 1913.

J Man
12-01-2020, 01:08 AM
Yes but I’m referring to my grandfather’s village in the late 19th/early 20th century. He left Greece for the Western US (Wyoming) after settling a clan vendetta in 1913.

That is interesting but I don't think that any Greeks developed a tribal consciousness to the same degree that the Montenegrins and Gheg Albanians did. There is really no anthropological literature out there about "Greek tribes" anyway from what I can see.

trdbr1234
12-01-2020, 01:37 AM
That is interesting but I don't think that any Greeks developed a tribal consciousness to the same degree that the Montenegrins and Gheg Albanians did. There is really no anthropological literature out there about "Greek tribes" anyway from what I can see.

I don't believe the "tribes" of Northern Albania and Montenegro were any different to the established "krahina". They functioned in essentially exact same way. Central and Southern Albania, as well as the Peloponnese had established krahina. I read a few Albanian authors a few years back asserting the same thing.

J Man
12-01-2020, 05:23 AM
I don't believe the "tribes" of Northern Albania and Montenegro were any different to the established "krahina". They functioned in essentially exact same way. Central and Southern Albania, as well as the Peloponnese had established krahina. I read a few Albanian authors a few years back asserting the same thing.

Do you have any sources or literature about these "krahina"? What was their social structure like?

J Man
12-01-2020, 04:22 PM
You would think that there would be more information written in regards to Greeks being tribal if they ever actually were. It does seem that the Maniots did have a clannish type of society though.

XXD
12-01-2020, 06:33 PM
Hey guys, I am new to this phorum, and I have just started experimenting with G25. Since it has been stated that that upcoming studies will show that Slavs who invaded Greece were already admixed with Balkan indigenous populations (e.g. Illyrians/Pannonians), and were somewhat like Serbians.

This is what I find if I run my coordinates (Leonidas) and other Greek populations against Imperial Rome, a Greek/Balkan woman from 500 AD Bavaria (DEU_MA_o), and Serbians, as well as Poles.

Would this give us a more reasonable estimate of the admixture that took place in the 6th century AD?

41495

41496

XXD
12-01-2020, 06:42 PM
Added Georgian Laz to capture Pontic diversity more accurately.

41499

Johnny ola
12-01-2020, 06:43 PM
Added Georgian Laz to capture Pontic diversity more accurately.

41499

What is this sample that you using with the name 'Greek Kerasounta Pontos'?

XXD
12-01-2020, 06:48 PM
The uncle of Marko47, which he provided in this thread:

https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?22283-Additional-Modern-Greek-Averages/page11&highlight=kerasounta

Sorcelow
12-02-2020, 06:21 PM
Something that I have been thinking about recently is the possibility that the Slavs who entered Greece during the 6-7th centuries possessed autosomal profiles characteristic of modern day South Slavs. David seems to hint towards that possibility, and I am certainly open to it, but how could it definitively be proven? If we were to test the remains of many individuals from the same burial site and they all clustered with South Slavs, then I think it would be likely. But if we are only able to test a handful of individuals from various medieval burial sites in Greece and they turned out to cluster with south Slavs, then I think the argument is less convincing, because these individuals could simply be the offspring of one native and one Slavic parent.

Thoughts?

lacreme
12-02-2020, 06:59 PM
An unrelated question with the previous topics discussed.
In general do we share IBD or most probably IBS with any Jewish group ?
I Was looking through my friend's list on ftdna family finder and out of his 550 matches, around 80 (could be more,could be less ) have definitely jewish ancestry. From these matches some are common with his mother (dna tested ) and the rest obviously would be with his father (still untested ) . Of them some would be common among both of his parents had his father been tested.
Closest among my friend's jewish matches is an old man (70+ ) who is characterized as 2nd Cousin - 4th Cousin with 45 cM shared and 17 cM being the longest block. Not a single common match of Greek origin with him.

XXD
12-02-2020, 08:21 PM
Something that I have been thinking about recently is the possibility that the Slavs who entered Greece during the 6-7th centuries possessed autosomal profiles characteristic of modern day South Slavs. David seems to hint towards that possibility, and I am certainly open to it, but how could it definitively be proven? If we were to test the remains of many individuals from the same burial site and they all clustered with South Slavs, then I think it would be likely. But if we are only able to test a handful of individuals from various medieval burial sites in Greece and they turned out to cluster with south Slavs, then I think the argument is less convincing, because these individuals could simply be the offspring of one native and one Slavic parent.

Thoughts?

First, we need more samples from late antiquity Balkans, including Greek Macedonia, Epirus, Moesians and Illyrians. This will give us a good idea of the preinvasion genetic landscape. As I mentioned in another post, we would be able to distinguish between the ancestry of slavic admixed individuals in Greece. This is due to the fact that the palaeoBalkan component of the admixed Slavs is not the same with that of preinvasion Greeks, but more similar to North-western Balkans. You can read about this here:https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?22367-Comparing-different-sources-of-Neolithic-ancestry-across-the-Balkans-and-Italy

You can see this in the attached image. The "Serbian" component is nearly absent from Greek islanders, but peaks in areas affected by the Slavic migrations. David told me that this is a reasonable model, although he has his reservations about the Imperial Roman sample being representative of preinvasion Greeks.

41533

Johnny ola
12-02-2020, 08:47 PM
First, we need more samples from late antiquity Balkans, including Greek Macedonia, Epirus, Moesians and Illyrians. This will give us a good idea of the preinvasion genetic landscape. As I mentioned in another post, we would be able to distinguish between the ancestry of slavic admixed individuals in Greece. This is due to the fact that the palaeoBalkan component of the admixed Slavs is not the same with that of preinvasion Greeks, but more similar to North-western Balkans. You can read about this here:https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?22367-Comparing-different-sources-of-Neolithic-ancestry-across-the-Balkans-and-Italy

You can see this in the attached image. The "Serbian" component is nearly absent from Greek islanders, but peaks in areas affected by the Slavic migrations. David told me that this is a reasonable model, although he has his reservations about the Imperial Roman sample being representative of preinvasion Greeks.

41533

Modern Mainalnd Greeks are a combination of 'Hun Avar Slozad' like people and Greco-Anatolians, With Some samples require Even Some Levantine admixture. If you remove The Slavic/Balkanic admixture they coming between Empurie2 and BA Anatolian like Kaman Kaheolyk etc. But Some of them might need Some Levant IA to model them. Greek islanders on The other hand are less Slavic, but definetly more West Asian admixed.. and besides their Anatolian BA ancestry, that covers most of their autosomal DNA they got a really high levant input.

With a few Words. To model modern Greeks you will need refrences from Clasical Greeks(Empuries 2),something related to modern Slavs or Balts-Slavs(Hun Avar Slozad av1-2) and BA-IA(Anatolian) plus someting from The Levant. YOU can use Also Some balkanic refrences but using The refrences like 'Serbian' might be more accurate to estimate Slavic and Paleobalkan admixture together. You can Also use Cappadocian/Central Cappadocian Greek refrences to estimate The west Asian/Anatolian like admixture in Greeks. Cappadocians are a good example of BA/IA Anatolians.

trdbr1234
12-02-2020, 09:04 PM
Modern Mainalnd Greeks are a combination of 'Hun Avar Slozad' like people and Greco-Anatolians, With Some samples require Even Some Levantine admixture. If you remove The Slavic/Balkanic admixture they coming between Empurie2 and BA Anatolian like Kaman Kaheolyk etc. But Some of them might need Some Levant IA to model them. Greek islanders on The other hand are less Slavic, but definetly more West Asian admixed.. and besides their Anatolian BA ancestry, that covers most of their autosomal DNA they got a really high levant input.

With a few Words. To model modern Greeks you will need refrences from Clasical Greeks(Empuries 2),something related to modern Slavs or Balts-Slavs(Hun Avar Slozad av1-2) and BA-IA(Anatolian) plus someting from The Levant. YOU can use Also Some balkanic refrences but using The refrences like 'Serbian' might be more accurate to estimate Slavic and Paleobalkan admixture together. You can Also use Cappadocian/Central Cappadocian Greek refrences to estimate The west Asian/Anatolian like admixture in Greeks. Cappadocians are a good example of BA/IA Anatolians.

How do Cappadocians compare to Armenians? I ask because there are toponyms and historical evidence of some Armenian migration to places like Crete.

Johnny ola
12-02-2020, 09:44 PM
How do Cappadocians compare to Armenians? I ask because there are toponyms and historical evidence of some Armenian migration to places like Crete.

Eastern Cappadocians are closer to Pontic Greeks and Armenians while western Cappadocians are closer to Greek islanders(inclunding Crete) and Cyprus. As For Cretans they devire much of their ancestry from a population similar to BA Anatolians but with more Greek and Levantine admixture. Also Crete has a Slavic infleunece that Cappadocian Greeks lack.

XXD
12-02-2020, 09:56 PM
Modern Mainalnd Greeks are a combination of 'Hun Avar Slozad' like people and Greco-Anatolians, With Some samples require Even Some Levantine admixture. If you remove The Slavic/Balkanic admixture they coming between Empurie2 and BA Anatolian like Kaman Kaheolyk etc. But Some of them might need Some Levant IA to model them. Greek islanders on The other hand are less Slavic, but definetly more West Asian admixed.. and besides their Anatolian BA ancestry, that covers most of their autosomal DNA they got a really high levant input.

With a few Words. To model modern Greeks you will need refrences from Clasical Greeks(Empuries 2),something related to modern Slavs or Balts-Slavs(Hun Avar Slozad av1-2) and BA-IA(Anatolian) plus someting from The Levant. YOU can use Also Some balkanic refrences but using The refrences like 'Serbian' might be more accurate to estimate Slavic and Paleobalkan admixture together. You can Also use Cappadocian/Central Cappadocian Greek refrences to estimate The west Asian/Anatolian like admixture in Greeks. Cappadocians are a good example of BA/IA Anatolians.

I cannot say I completely agree with that. Since we anticipate that the Slavs who came to Greece were already like Serbians (including north-western Paleobalkan admixture, NOT Greek one), then the latter population might be a better proxy than Avar Szolad, whose closest matches with his contemporary samples are Scythians, another Iranian tribe, NOT Slavs.

Also, using early Slavs (Czechia) won't do, as it does not estimate the Paleobalkan admixture that the Slavs who invaded Greece brought with them.

We are discussing about this on the other post I attached.

Sorcelow
12-03-2020, 03:14 AM
Here is a pca of my me and my family members compared to other Peloponnesians/mainland Greeks

Seems like my sister and I occupy the space that is transitionary between the Peloponnese and Macedonia, whereas the mother is firmly within the Peloponnesian cluster. Even though there is nothing particularly shocking about where my sister and I plot, I suspect that this inter-familiar diversity can be explained by the different subregions of the Peloponnese that my parents are from. More specifically, my father's village is close to the Arcadian/Messinian border, and is perched up high on the slopes of the Taygetus. The Melingoi inhabited the other side of the mountain up until the 15th century. On the other hand, my mother's village is located further south, approaching outer Mani and bordering the "Bardounochoria". Next step is for me to test my father to see how he compares.

https://scontent-lga3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.15752-9/128635633_387386819248576_2424310605043831073_n.pn g?_nc_cat=104&ccb=2&_nc_sid=ae9488&_nc_ohc=p4XDpb4TSGQAX_BBfIc&_nc_ht=scontent-lga3-1.xx&oh=d7ce18cee5e9880ddcab3d64bc101944&oe=5FEE35C8

xripkan
12-03-2020, 04:51 AM
Here is a pca of my me and my family members compared to other Peloponnesians/mainland Greeks

Seems like my sister and I occupy the space that is transitionary between the Peloponnese and Macedonia, whereas the mother is firmly within the Peloponnesian cluster. Even though there is nothing particularly shocking about where my sister and I plot, I suspect that this inter-familiar diversity can be explained by the different subregions of the Peloponnese that my parents are from. More specifically, my father's village is close to the Arcadian/Messinian border, and is perched up high on the slopes of the Taygetus. The Melingoi inhabited the other side of the mountain up until the 15th century. On the other hand, my mother's village is located further south, approaching outer Mani and bordering the "Bardounochoria". Next step is for me to test my father to see how he compares.

https://scontent-lga3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.15752-9/128635633_387386819248576_2424310605043831073_n.pn g?_nc_cat=104&ccb=2&_nc_sid=ae9488&_nc_ohc=p4XDpb4TSGQAX_BBfIc&_nc_ht=scontent-lga3-1.xx&oh=d7ce18cee5e9880ddcab3d64bc101944&oe=5FEE35C8

Could you post your mother's closest modern populations?

Sorcelow
12-03-2020, 05:12 AM
Could you post your mother's closest modern populations?

[1,] "Greek_Thessaly" "0.0356"
[2,] "Greek_Peloponnese (N=27)" "0.0357"
[3,] "Italian_Molise" "0.0389"
[4,] "Italian_Marche" "0.039"
[5,] "Greek_Macedonia (N=32)" "0.0395"
[6,] "Italian_Apulia" "0.0397"
[7,] "Italian_Abruzzo" "0.041"
[8,] "Italian_Basilicata" "0.0425"
[9,] "Greek_Izmir" "0.0427"
[10,] "Albanian (N=16)" "0.0429"

Johnny ola
12-03-2020, 05:51 AM
I cannot say I completely agree with that. Since we anticipate that the Slavs who came to Greece were already like Serbians (including north-western Paleobalkan admixture, NOT Greek one), then the latter population might be a better proxy than Avar Szolad, whose closest matches with his contemporary samples are Scythians, another Iranian tribe, NOT Slavs.

Also, using early Slavs (Czechia) won't do, as it does not estimate the Paleobalkan admixture that the Slavs who invaded Greece brought with them.

We are discussing about this on the other post I attached.

I told You that You can use The Serb like refence. But using hun avar Slozad You will estimate better The northern input in Greek mainland. Serbs have high Anatolian N genes and will eat Empuries and BA Anatolian like admixture. We need samples from medieval Balkans to model Greeks and sadly The only we have are The samples from Slozad, Witch Btw are pretty fine to estimate The northern element in Greece and balkans in general.

Michalis Moriopoulos
12-03-2020, 07:19 AM
On the other hand, my mother's village is located further south, approaching outer Mani and bordering the "Bardounochoria". Next step is for me to test my father to see how he compares.

I look forward to seeing his results. I was wondering why you were so shifted toward the northern end of mainland Greek variation. We only have those three Laconian samples to work with, but you even fall on the extreme end of the Arcadian samples. So does Tony C, for that matter. I wonder if there will be some Peloponnesians who cluster even more northerly. Maybe your father, for instance? There's also those two outliers over by the Sicilians, one Laconian and one Arcadian. I'd be very curious to know more about those individuals. If they are recent islander descendants, it's weird they would cluster near the Maltese and not the Cretans. So assuming these are all locals with deep roots, Peloponnesians ranges from Central Med to East Med, with a good number in the transitional zone. Drawn-on black hull to outline the range:

https://i.imgur.com/HCHoFE7.png

pegasus
12-03-2020, 11:15 AM
Eastern Cappadocians are closer to Pontic Greeks and Armenians while western Cappadocians are closer to Greek islanders(inclunding Crete) and Cyprus. As For Cretans they devire much of their ancestry from a population similar to BA Anatolians but with more Greek and Levantine admixture. Also Crete has a Slavic infleunece that Cappadocian Greeks lack.

Aegean Greeks from Smyrna would be the same as those from Trabzon and surrounds right?

Johnny ola
12-03-2020, 12:15 PM
Aegean Greeks from Smyrna would be the same as those from Trabzon and surrounds right?

No,Smyrna Greeks are between Greek mainland and Greek islands.They are a combination of these 2 people.

pegasus
12-03-2020, 12:19 PM
No,Smyrna Greeks are between Greek mainland and Greek islands.They are a combination of these 2 people.

In other words, Cappadocian /Pontic Greeks are more ancient.

Johnny ola
12-03-2020, 12:33 PM
In other words, Cappadocian /Pontic Greeks are more ancient.

They are more ancient and native in their lands.They derive much of their ancestry from BA and IA populations.Pontic Greeks thought they require something 'Greek' and something 'Levantine' in their autosomal.But in general,mainland Greeks are more affected from barbarian migrations.Cypriots are also native and they didn't influenced by other people,you can inclunde them as well.Anatolian Greeks those from the west coast pretty much died or turkificized by the turkish beyliks.Actually most of Anatolia turkificized and even the majority of Central Anatolian Greeks,Pontian Greek and those from the west Coast have converted to Islam either with Sultanate of Rum or later with the Ottoman Dynasty with devshirme.After the battle of Manzikert pretty much the biggest part of Anatolia started to Turkificized.It was the first phase of the Turkification..

pegasus
12-03-2020, 12:49 PM
They are more ancient and native in their lands.They derive much of their ancestry from BA and IA populations.Pontic Greeks thought they require something 'Greek' and something 'Levantine' in their autosomal.But in general,mainland Greeks are more affected from barbarian migrations.Cypriots are also native and they didn't influenced by other people,you can inclunde them as well.Anatolian Greeks those from the west coast pretty much died or turkificized by the turkish beyliks.Actually most of Anatolia turkificized and even the majority of Central Anatolian Greeks,Pontian Greek and those from the west Coast have converted to Islam either with Sultanate of Rum or later with the Ottoman Dynasty with devshirme.After the battle of Manzikert pretty much the biggest part of Anatolia started to Turkificized.It was the first phase of the Turkification..

Honestly, I was not aware Anatolian Greeks were that wide spread ,but looking at genomes of Pontic Greek and Greek Islanders it truly puts into perspective that much of Anatolia was pretty Hellenized even up to 600-700 years ago. It really changes your perspective of things.

Johnny ola
12-03-2020, 01:21 PM
Yes Anatolia in general was a mess.After the IA and with the collapse of the Lydian Empire...Anatolia was the crossroad for many empires.But the autosomal DNA of anatolians did not changed much if you ask me...if you look modern Turks and Greeks from Pontus and Cappadocia we seeing that they didn't changed much.Those who did not mixed with Turks,have actually stayed pretty much the same people.But thats not the case with Anatolian Greeks from the west coast and with Greeks from Costantinoupoli-Istanbul.The gedmatch kits and samples from G25 we have seen until now, showing clearly that these people coming either from Greek mainland or they have some ancestry from the islands of Aegean.Well,Costantinoupoli after its collapse from Ottomans the local population either killed or they sell them as slaves.Greeks from these places are actually recent arrivals from other parts of Greece due to the cosmopolital profile of cities like Smyrna and Istanbul during the Ottoman times....hence their autosomal DNA.

Btw i am really sad that Pontic Greeks and also Cappadocian Greeks do not have any Persian/Iranic ancestry.You know that the kingdom of Pontus and the Cappadocian kingdom were Iranic dominated right?The elite of these 2 kingdoms had Iranic ancestry but the plebs/locals lacking Iranic DNA,well at least i have not seen someone until now.Thought i am thinkful about some L lineages in eastern Pontus if they have Iranic/Persian relation.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Pontus
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Cappadocia

davit
12-03-2020, 01:39 PM
Yes Anatolia in general was a mess.After the IA and with the collapse of the Lydian Empire...Anatolia was the crossroad for many empires.But the autosomal DNA of anatolians did not changed much if you ask me...if you look modern Turks and Greeks from Pontus and Cappadocia we seeing that they didn't changed much.Those who did not mixed with Turks,have actually stayed pretty much the same people.But thats not the case with Anatolian Greeks from the west coast and with Greeks from Costantinoupoli-Istanbul.The gedmatch kits and samples from G25 we have seen until now, showing clearly that these people coming either from Greek mainland or they have some ancestry from the islands of Aegean.Well,Costantinoupoli after its collapse from Ottomans the local population either killed or they sell them as slaves.Greeks from these places are actually recent arrivals from other parts of Greece due to the cosmopolital profile of cities like Smyrna and Istanbul during the Ottoman times....hence their autosomal DNA.

Btw i am really sad that Pontic Greeks and also Cappadocian Greeks do not have any Persian/Iranic ancestry.You know that the kingdom of Pontus and the Cappadocian kingdom were Iranic dominated right?The elite of these 2 kingdoms had Iranic ancestry but the plebs/locals lacking Iranic DNA,well at least i have not seen someone until now.Thought i am thinkful about some L lineages in eastern Pontus if they have Iranic/Persian relation.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Pontus
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Cappadocia

The Greco-Anatolia region with Greeks, Slavic settlements, Romans, Thracians, Phyrgians, Lydians, Hitties, Mittani, kingdom of Pontus, the Iranic ancestors of Kurds, Armenians, Galatians, Cimmerians has had so many Indo-European people settle within its borders.

Crazy to think that all this region had possibly NINE different IE branches/families within its borders (Anatolian, Greek, Daco-Thracian, Slavic, Celtic, Italic, Armenian, Iranian, Indo-Aryan). Only missing Balts, Germans and Tocharians.

Johnny ola
12-03-2020, 01:49 PM
The Greco-Anatolia region with Greeks, Slavic settlements, Romans, Thracians, Phyrgians, Lydians, Hitties, Mittani, kingdom of Pontus, the Iranic ancestors of Kurds, Armenians, Galatians, Cimmerians has had so many Indo-European people settle within its borders.

Crazy to think that all this region had possibly NINE different IE branches/families within its borders (Anatolian, Greek, Daco-Thracian, Slavic, Celtic, Italic, Armenian, Iranian, Indo-Aryan). Only missing Balts, Germans and Tocharians.

But the most important of all were Hittites and Luwians IMO.And this is also probably where the decent 'Steppe' admixture of Cappadocian Greeks coming from.If not from them,then possible from Phyrgians or Lydians.

davit
12-03-2020, 01:52 PM
But the most important of all were Hittites and Luwians IMO.And this is also probably where the decent 'Steppe' admixture of Cappadocian Greeks coming from.If not from them,then possible from Phyrgians or Lydians.

Agree.

On a related note do Cappadocian and Pontic Greeks carry any Scythian or Cimmerian Z93?

lacreme
12-03-2020, 01:53 PM
The Greco-Anatolia region with Greeks, Slavic settlements, Romans, Thracians, Phyrgians, Lydians, Hitties, Mittani, kingdom of Pontus, the Iranic ancestors of Kurds, Armenians, Galatians, Cimmerians has had so many Indo-European people settle within its borders.

Crazy to think that all this region had possibly NINE different IE branches/families within its borders (Anatolian, Greek, Daco-Thracian, Slavic, Celtic, Italic, Armenian, Iranian, Indo-Aryan). Only missing Balts, Germans and Tocharians.

There were the resettlements of some Goths too ... and people with more contemporary Germanic-like profile also , from the second crusade,Normans etc... oh...the Varangian Guard should also be mentioned. surely the must have used their native languages for at least some years or even generations

Johnny ola
12-03-2020, 02:35 PM
Agree.

On a related note do Cappadocian and Pontic Greeks carry any Scythian or Cimmerian Z93?

They have Z2103 prolly from Anatolians I guess. Its 7% in Trabzon(might be from Greeks also). But Cappadocian Greeks and some Kayiseri Turks have some Italo-Celtic lineages prolly related with Galatians.

Chatzianastasoglou
12-03-2020, 03:14 PM
They are more ancient and native in their lands.They derive much of their ancestry from BA and IA populations.Pontic Greeks thought they require something 'Greek' and something 'Levantine' in their autosomal.But in general,mainland Greeks are more affected from barbarian migrations.Cypriots are also native and they didn't influenced by other people,you can inclunde them as well.Anatolian Greeks those from the west coast pretty much died or turkificized by the turkish beyliks.Actually most of Anatolia turkificized and even the majority of Central Anatolian Greeks,Pontian Greek and those from the west Coast have converted to Islam either with Sultanate of Rum or later with the Ottoman Dynasty with devshirme.After the battle of Manzikert pretty much the biggest part of Anatolia started to Turkificized.It was the first phase of the Turkification..
Are Anatolian Greeks Anatolians and Caucasians with worth mentioning Greek input and mainland Greeks Greeks with worth mentioning Slavic and Balkan input?

Johnny ola
12-03-2020, 03:34 PM
Are Anatolian Greeks Anatolians and Caucasians with worth mentioning Greek input and mainland Greeks Greeks with worth mentioning Slavic and Balkan input?

I think it depends on how you model the samples in G25. Personally I have my own views.. in what exactly modern Greeks can considered n terms of autosomal DNA. Someone else might have a different opinion than me. But if you ask me, I think none is pure Greek, nor I believe that the Greek DNA is the main bulk of our autosomal. But thats me and I don't want to generalize. For mainland Greeks I think if you remove the Northern element they coming in some way more west Asian. Suggesting that Greece before the Slavic migrations was in some way more west Asian influenced.As for Anatolian Greeks it depends. Eastern Pontians are mostly Caucasian+Anatolian while Cappadocian Greeks are mostly Anatolian BA/IA derived with secondary influences from the transcaucasus etc. But thats my own opinion, it dosnt mean nessecary that I am right.I have modeled the samples millions of times, with different models.. including samples from various Greek users here who have shared their coordinates. I think modern Greeks with exception Pontics, Cappadocians and Cypriots are in some way homogenous. The diffrence is between mainland and islands where there, west Asian input increases and Slavic/Balkanic admixture in some way decreases but still it is there, thought in lower amounts compared to those from mainland. South Peloponnese is the center and brings the balance between the mainland spectrum and to Islands. It is sad that we don't have the samples from Tsakonians you would see that they were southern shifted compared to other Peloponesians.Maniots as well... But sadly Stamatayanopoulos did not shared these samples.

xripkan
12-03-2020, 04:41 PM
My opinion is that most of the ancestry for every modern Greek group can be described as Hellenistic. We always think in terms of ancient Greece but I think the Hellenistic world can help us understand better the ancestry of modern Greeks. The core of the Hellenistic world which evolved later as the core of the Eastern Roman/Byzantine world was consisted of ancient Greece, Southern Balkans (southern of Jirecek line) and the whole Anatolia region. From the mix of these ancient peoples comes the biggest part of ancestry for every modern Greek group. In my opinion every Greek has ancestry from all these areas just in different ratios.
Mainland Greece has later assimilated Slavs,peoples from Northern Blakans and other highly Steppe-admixed peoples from the North but the biggest part of their ancestry remained Hellenistic while this input is very low among Greek Islanders.
I think also that a part of Steppe ancestry for Central Anatolians is Slavic since we know that thousands of Slavs were transfered there by Byzantine emperors.

lacreme
12-03-2020, 05:14 PM
An unrelated question with the previous topics discussed.
In general do we share IBD or most probably IBS with any Jewish group ?
I Was looking through my friend's list on ftdna family finder and out of his 550 matches, around 80 (could be more,could be less ) have definitely jewish ancestry. From these matches some are common with his mother (dna tested ) and the rest obviously would be with his father (still untested ) . Of them some would be common among both of his parents had his father been tested.
Closest among my friend's jewish matches is an old man (70+ ) who is characterized as 2nd Cousin - 4th Cousin with 45 cM shared and 17 cM being the longest block. Not a single common match of Greek origin with him.

Anyone who can help me make sense of this ? whether it's a real connection or not ?
Since I made the post above, I phased his father's kit through Gedmatch and indeed it's seems to be a phenomenon mostly connected with him as the old man mentioned above showed up on his one-to-many list . Further down some other people with possible jewish ancestry too,don't know how many exactly but enough to produce the biggest cluster among his clusters using his phased kit with the clustering toolkit. I adjusted the lower cM threshold in the range of 7-10 cM and while the list obviously got shorter each time the pattern didn't change.

Worth noting the mentioned old man comes up as almost pure Ashkenazi Jew, maybe with a small middle eastern jew shift, on all of the available calcs .

All the results of the clustering toolkit for my friend's and his father's (phased) profile are saved and I have his permission to share them with anyone willing to take a look at them.

Greekscholar
12-03-2020, 05:20 PM
Anyone who can help me make sense of this ? whether it's a real connection or not ?
Since I made the post above, I phased his father's kit through Gedmatch and indeed it's seems to be a phenomenon mostly connected with him as the old man mentioned above showed up on his one-to-many list . Further down some other people with possible jewish ancestry too,don't know how many exactly but enough to produce the biggest cluster among his clusters using his phased kit with the clustering toolkit. I adjusted the lower cM threshold in the range of 7-10 cM and while the list obviously got shorter each time the pattern didn't change.

Worth noting the mentioned old man comes up as almost pure Ashkenazi Jew, maybe with a small middle eastern jew shift, on all of the available calcs .

All the results of the clustering toolkit for my friend's and his father's (phased) profile are saved and I have his permission to share them with anyone willing to take a look at them.

Mr. Brook on GEDmatch forums is probably the best person to answer this question. He helps people triangulate Jewish DNA segments to find trace ancestry. A 45cM match is worth investigating.

davit
12-03-2020, 05:32 PM
My opinion is that most of the ancestry for every modern Greek group can be described as Hellenistic. We always think in terms of ancient Greece but I think the Hellenistic world can help us understand better the ancestry of modern Greeks. The core of the Hellenistic world which evolved later as the core of the Eastern Roman/Byzantine world was consisted of ancient Greece, Southern Balkans (southern of Jirecek line) and the whole Anatolia region. From the mix of these ancient peoples comes the biggest part of ancestry for every modern Greek group. In my opinion every Greek has ancestry from all these areas just in different ratios.
Mainland Greece has later assimilated Slavs,peoples from Northern Blakans and other highly Steppe-admixed peoples from the North but the biggest part of their ancestry remained Hellenistic while this input is very low among Greek Islanders.
I think also that a part of Steppe ancestry for Central Anatolians is Slavic since we know that thousands of Slavs were transfered there by Byzantine emperors.

Interesting that you have an Iranic ydna. Johnny ola should be happy.

lacreme
12-03-2020, 05:45 PM
Mr. Brook on GEDmatch forums is probably the best person to answer this question. He helps people triangulate Jewish DNA segments to find trace ancestry. A 45cM match is worth investigating.

Thanks! Is there any megathread or should I contact him directly ?

Greekscholar
12-03-2020, 05:50 PM
Thanks! Is there any megathread or should I contact him directly ?

There are several large "Am I part Jewish" threads there. You can also use the PM function, Mr. Brook is about 10% of all posts on that forum, so you will easily find his contributions.

CyrylBojarski
12-03-2020, 06:35 PM
There are several large "Am I part Jewish" threads there. You can also use the PM function, Mr. Brook is about 10% of all posts on that forum, so you will easily find his contributions.

Is mr. Kevin Alan Brook registered on Anthrogenica forum? Unfortunately I can not contact him on email now

xripkan
12-03-2020, 06:45 PM
Interesting that you have an Iranic ydna. Johnny ola should be happy.

It is uncommon among Greek people. I have gathered some data about it and I have concluded that it comes from a Sarmatian group from Northern Balkans that was very possibly assimilated by Goths. Most of them migrated to Western Europe but a small minority stayed in Thrace and NW Anatolia.

Greekscholar
12-03-2020, 07:20 PM
Is mr. Kevin Alan Brook registered on Anthrogenica forum? Unfortunately I can not contact him on email now

I have no idea. If you post on the GEDmatch forums and title your thread appropriately, he will likely respond back.

davit
12-03-2020, 07:26 PM
It is uncommon among Greek people. I have gathered some data about it and I have concluded that it comes from a Sarmatian group from Northern Balkans that was very possibly assimilated by Goths. Most of them migrated to Western Europe but a small minority stayed in Thrace and NW Anatolia.

That's what I would guess. Some sort of Iranic nomad lineage assimilated by a more settled Indo-European group. Could also be Cimmerian and came to the Balkans via Thracians?

Andrewid
12-03-2020, 07:42 PM
I think modern Greeks with exception Pontics, Cappadocians and Cypriots are in some way homogenous.

We should avoid words such as 'homogenous' in this context as it veers into territory of racial purity. What we are dealing with is a series of continua which affect the majority of geographic areas such as the Italic peninsula. The Mediterranean genetic continuum has been identified according to certain common parameters, linking an area from Campania in Italy to Cyprus. Greek mainlanders, on the whole are not seen as a part of this because of their Slavic shift. But there are many other patterns and graduations that we can recognise. The Greek genetic continuum shows a gradual decrease in some core elements and the increase of others from a line stretching from Epirus to Cyprus. West central Anatolian Greeks link off this line from Dodecanesians and Cypriots. There then follows a pattern via east central Anatolian Greeks to the Pontus.

My own family plot on Genoplot G25 PCA shows the Greek cline continuing from the Dodecanese. Epirus is totally off grid towards the northwest (both geographically and in terms of this PCA). Do Dodecanesians really constitute a 'homogenous' whole with Epirotes but not with their Cypriot immediate genetic neighbours?

https://i.postimg.cc/DJb8LFy4/Southeastern-end-of-Greek-genetic-continuum.png (https://postimg.cc/DJb8LFy4)

And here are my proximities to individuals on the Davidski latest modern population speadsheet:

https://i.postimg.cc/KYJRjp0v/Andrewid-G25-modern-populations-individual-031220.png (https://postimages.org/)



And my father for good measure:

https://i.postimg.cc/jqNvwzrY/Andrewid-father-G25-modern-population-individuals-031220.png (https://postimages.org/)

xripkan
12-03-2020, 07:50 PM
That's what I would guess. Some sort of Iranic nomad lineage assimilated by a more settled Indo-European group. Could also be Cimmerian and came to the Balkans via Thracians?

Cimmerians were living in Europe since before 1000 BC. Despite my haplogroup has been found only among modern Europeans its closest subclade is Central Asian. So my clade fits better to a population that moved to Europe from Eurasian Steppes during late Antiquity.
I had opened a relative thread with some more information, you can check if you want https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?19076-My-YSEQ-results

Johnny ola
12-03-2020, 08:04 PM
We should avoid words such as 'homogenous' in this context as it veers into territory of racial purity. What we are dealing with is a series of continua which affect the majority of geographic areas such as the Italic peninsula. The Mediterranean genetic continuum has been identified according to certain common parameters, linking an area from Campania in Italy to Cyprus. Greek mainlanders, on the whole are not seen as a part of this because of their Slavic shift. But there are many other patterns and graduations that we can recognise. The Greek genetic continuum shows a gradual decrease in some core elements and the increase of others from a line stretching from Epirus to Cyprus. West central Anatolian Greeks link off this line from Dodecanesians and Cypriots. There then follows the a pattern via east central Anatolian Greeks to the Pontus.

My own family plot on Genoplot G25 PCA shows the Greek cline continuing from the Dodecanese. Epirus is totally off grid towards the northwest (both geographically and in terms of this PCA). Do Dodecanesians really constitute a 'homogenous' whole with Epirotes but not with their Cypriot immediate genetic neighbours?

https://i.postimg.cc/DJb8LFy4/Southeastern-end-of-Greek-genetic-continuum.png (https://postimg.cc/DJb8LFy4)

And here are my proximities to individuals on the Davidski latest modern population speadsheet:

https://i.postimg.cc/KYJRjp0v/Andrewid-G25-modern-populations-individual-031220.png (https://postimages.org/)



And my father for good measure:

https://i.postimg.cc/jqNvwzrY/Andrewid-father-G25-modern-population-individuals-031220.png (https://postimages.org/)

We have discuss many times the genetics of Cypriots.It depends individual that is well known.Some individuals are closer to Kos-Crete while others are closer to Cappadocian Greeks and the Levant.Individuals who are closer to Druze,Lebanese etc are obviously far away from the Greek spectrum.When i mean 'Greek' spectrum.. i mean from Northern GreeceI(Maedonia/Thrace) down to Dodecannese islands and Crete.

Andrewid
12-03-2020, 09:18 PM
We have discuss many times the genetics of Cypriots.It depends individual that is well known.Some individuals are closer to Kos-Crete while others are closer to Cappadocian Greeks and the Levant.Individuals who are closer to Druze,Lebanese etc are obviously far away from the Greek spectrum.When i mean 'Greek' spectrum.. i mean from Northern GreeceI(Maedonia/Thrace) down to Dodecannese islands and Crete.

Where are you drawing your line for your Greek spectrum? A threshold of certain core elements? Continuua are continua because they gradually merge into the next region. Is the spectrum arbitrarily ending at the lighthouse keeper on Strongyli-165 miles further east and the inhabitants are somehow 'beyond the pale'?

dosas
12-03-2020, 09:56 PM
There's no need to reprimand johny, I think we can all understand what he meant.

i.e. Pontic Greeks are a South Caucasian population with minor pulls to the Aegean, their culture, music, food and attire is also heavily Caucasian, if not for their linguistic roots and particularities and their historical evolution, it is hard to distinguish them from the rest of the Black Sea/Caucasia natives. There's nothing wrong that, it's 2020, people shouldn't get so hung up on the imaginative of tribal affinities, imo, scientific truth of ethnography/linguistics comes first.

The Romantic notion of nationhood stemming from Bavarian aspirations of what constitutes the Greek ethnos is too narrow to fit the former demographics of Hellenistic and Roman Imperial space, and johny is correct in saying that, from what we've seen, all Greek groups loosely cluster together with the exception of Cypriots, Greco-Anatolians and Pontics who "belong" to different clusters entirely, Greco-Anatolians being the 'orphaned' group whereas Pontics and Cypriots belonging to their Caucasian and East Med groups, respectively.

To be fair, this is an academic affair turning into a circle jerk, since the reality of the situation, at least from my experience, is that current generations are too mixed between locality and outliers, due to high regional mobility within the country (at least in the parts of "New Greece").

Sorcelow
12-04-2020, 12:01 AM
Here is another PCA of me and members of my family. Even though its based on gedmatch, it mirrors what the G25 has produced nearly identically, with my sister and I being at the northern end of the Peloponnesian cluster, and my mom further south. I've also included the results of some forum members and other Peloponnesians.

https://scontent-lga3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.15752-9/128410875_406706840378417_6580874867161344802_n.pn g?_nc_cat=110&ccb=2&_nc_sid=ae9488&_nc_ohc=TNoVLNNHMg0AX9mOpm2&_nc_ht=scontent-lga3-1.xx&oh=7f9d11897673927c1db6e2a4bd6c67fe&oe=5FEF5726

lacreme
12-04-2020, 03:09 PM
I have no idea. If you post on the GEDmatch forums and title your thread appropriately, he will likely respond back.

I came in contact with him...
Turns out it really seems to be a genuine connection of the old man of Ashkenazi heritage with my friend's father, most probably through one of the pontic greeks with heritage from a 15th century jew that was discussed on another thread here.
strangely though he seems to be too close (on ftdna family finder) for someone who is at least 500 years separated...I know that they are a highly endogamous population but still...He shows further up on the list from a known 4th cousin relative of my friend and just below a partially Cretan distant relative of his mother.

Greekscholar
12-04-2020, 03:46 PM
I came in contact with him...
Turns out it really seems to be a genuine connection of the old man of Ashkenazi heritage with my friend's father, most probably through one of the pontic greeks with heritage from a 15th century jew that was discussed on another thread here.
strangely though he seems to be too close (on ftdna family finder) for someone who is at least 500 years separated...I know that they are a highly endogamous population but still...He shows further up on the list from a known 4th cousin relative of my friend and just below a partially Cretan distant relative of his mother.

Yes, that connection would seem very strong (40cM right?) for a 500 year old shared ancestor. I don't know the specifics of how Ashkenazi segment matching works though. I have seen some One-to-Many lists for unadmixed Ashkenazi, and the amount of 100-200cM matches are legion. Generations don't apply in the same way in endogamous groups.

One thought would be if Chris's dad is clearly part of an Ashkenazi cluster, this gentleman may just be the outlier who happens to be the strongest match of the bunch, the person who tested and happens to match all of the various smaller Ashkenazi segments Chris's dad still carries.

TonyC
12-04-2020, 08:09 PM
I came in contact with him...
Turns out it really seems to be a genuine connection of the old man of Ashkenazi heritage with my friend's father, most probably through one of the pontic greeks with heritage from a 15th century jew that was discussed on another thread here.
strangely though he seems to be too close (on ftdna family finder) for someone who is at least 500 years separated...I know that they are a highly endogamous population but still...He shows further up on the list from a known 4th cousin relative of my friend and just below a partially Cretan distant relative of his mother.

The general consensus that mainland Greeks (aside from Maniots and SE Peloponnesians) are Balkan shifted is only partially correct. Yes many mainlanders cluster closely with Albanians but then there’s a significant West Euro shift towards Central Italy attributed to heavy ENF vs Steppe composition. Honestly other Balkanic pops including Bulgarians or Serbs don’t show much affinity with mainland Greeks unless we get specific to the Northern, outlying regions of Greek Macedonia or Thrace.

TonyC
12-04-2020, 08:11 PM
Here is another PCA of me and members of my family. Even though its based on gedmatch, it mirrors what the G25 has produced nearly identically, with my sister and I being at the northern end of the Peloponnesian cluster, and my mom further south. I've also included the results of some forum members and other Peloponnesians.

https://scontent-lga3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.15752-9/128410875_406706840378417_6580874867161344802_n.pn g?_nc_cat=110&ccb=2&_nc_sid=ae9488&_nc_ohc=TNoVLNNHMg0AX9mOpm2&_nc_ht=scontent-lga3-1.xx&oh=7f9d11897673927c1db6e2a4bd6c67fe&oe=5FEF5726
The general consensus that mainland Greeks (aside from Maniots and SE Peloponnesians) are Balkan shifted is only partially correct. Yes many mainlanders cluster closely with Albanians but then there’s a significant West Euro shift towards Central Italy attributed to heavy ENF vs Steppe composition. Honestly other Balkanic pops including Bulgarians or Serbs don’t show much affinity with mainland Greeks unless we get specific to the Northern, outlying regions of Greek Macedonia or Thrace

dosas
12-04-2020, 09:16 PM
Albanians are more Western Euro shifted and Central-North Italian shifted compared to Greeks.

TonyC
12-04-2020, 09:30 PM
[QUOTE=dosas;725443]Albanians are more Western Euro shifted and Central-North Italian shifted compared to Greeks.
I hear what your saying and in general that’s true because Albanians are much more homogeneous but if you use Thessaly as a proxy for mainland Greece and look at closest populations you’ll notice a strong shift towards Central Italy vs. SE Balkans.

Johnny ola
12-04-2020, 09:36 PM
Albanians are more western shifted because they are less west asian admixed than Greeks.Also Central-North Italians have different steppe compared to Greek and Albanians witch is eastern european.The reason why some Greeks and Albanians clushter with central Italians is simply because of their similar Farmer/Steppe ratios nothing else.

xripkan
12-04-2020, 10:07 PM
And except the similar Barcin/Steppe ratio it is also the lower -compared to other Greek Mainlanders- Iran N/CHG components. Maybe some parts of Mainland Greece received lower Anatolian input and the Steppe+Barcin combination brings them closer to Central Italy and Tuscan but I think in many cases it is related to Arvanites and Vlachs.

TonyC
12-04-2020, 10:07 PM
Albanians are more western shifted because they are less west asian admixed than Greeks.Also Central-North Italians have different steppe compared to Greek and Albanians witch is eastern european.The reason why some Greeks and Albanians clushter with central Italians is simply because of their similar Farmer/Steppe ratios nothing else.

So if we’re talking about autosomal geneticl clusters wouldn’t you say that Albanians, Mainland Greeks (other than deep Maniots, Tsakonians), and Central Italians are genetically similar even if we separate them out on a PCA?

Johnny ola
12-04-2020, 10:35 PM
So if we’re talking about autosomal geneticl clusters wouldn’t you say that Albanians, Mainland Greeks (other than deep Maniots, Tsakonians), and Central Italians are genetically similar even if we separate them out on a PCA?

South Albanians and Mainland Greeks do not have big diffrences.It is that Albanians in some way are less west asian admixed.As for Central Italians, they are between North and South Italians.You can inclunde them in the 'east med' spectrum.But keep in mind that Italians steppe is not eastern european shifted(with exception Friuli Venezia Giulia).Italians actually have Italic and Celto-Germanic steppe.Thought in Apulia and some other parts of South Italy there is slightly some Slavic admixture prolly coming from Arbėreshė and Griko folks.As for Mani and Tsakonia, without samples we cannot say much.But reading Stamatoyannopoulos papers we ending up in the conclusion that they are between Islanders and mainland.They might be in some way close to the recent Laconian samples.

TuaMan
12-04-2020, 10:41 PM
What's the best current proxy for the kind of the steppe ancestry that exists in Albanians and Greeks?

xripkan
12-04-2020, 10:46 PM
So if we’re talking about autosomal geneticl clusters wouldn’t you say that Albanians, Mainland Greeks (other than deep Maniots, Tsakonians), and Central Italians are genetically similar even if we separate them out on a PCA?

Many Greek Mainlanders are closer to Molise/Abruzzo cluster. In my opinion it is related as I mentioned above to the Iran N/CHG input. For example a Greek who is just Steppe+Barcin (with minimal Iran N/CHG) can be very close to Central Italians. Another Greek equally Steppe admixed who is Steppe+lower Barcin+some Iran N/CHG is closer to Abruzzo/Molise cluster.

In general I have noticed that the Greeks who are mostly Barcin+Steppe are closer to Albania and Central/North Italy and not Eastern Balkan shifted.

TonyC
12-04-2020, 10:49 PM
Many Greek Mainlanders are closer to Molise/Abruzzo cluster. In my opinion it is related as I mentioned above to the Iran N/CHG input. For example a Greek who is just Steppe+Barcin (with minimal Iran N/CHG) can be very close to Central Italians. Another Greek equally Steppe admixed who is Steppe+lower Barcin+some Iran N/CHG is closer to Abruzzo/Molise cluster.

In general I have noticed that the Greeks who are mostly Barcin+Steppe are closer to Albania and Central/North Italy and not Eastern Balkan shifted.
Yes I agree.

Johnny ola
12-04-2020, 11:01 PM
What's the best current proxy for the kind of the steppe ancestry that exists in Albanians and Greeks?

Anything related with Slavs-BaltoSlavs. You can use The empuries samples(since The Mycenaean showing Some weird admixtures and have errors). You can use a Bronze Age Anatolian reference and Something from The Levant either from IA or Hellenistic and Roman ages. Both Greeks and Albanians would be modeled better when we are going to have samples from medieval balkans. Using The Serbian samples are not a bad idea but I prefer to model With ancient samples instead With modern.

Dorian9
12-04-2020, 11:13 PM
If this theory of Slavs being South-Slavic like turns out true I wonder how would that translate for people like Maniots or Tsakonians?because in such scenario Fallmerayer would be a little justified it seems..
At the same time we expect significant regional continuity from these people (League of Free Laconians,Tsakonian dialect etc ) , now If you were also to add (like in the case of Maniots) references to remove possible "Byzantine" admix (see Noble Byzantine families moving in Mani or Mardaites) ,what would remain?
Does this make any sense or overthinking it?

DgidguBidgu
12-04-2020, 11:23 PM
"since The Mycenaean showing Some weird admixtures and have errors"

What exactly is wrong with these samples? Can you explain to me or give me a link where I can read about this?

Johnny ola
12-04-2020, 11:28 PM
What exactly is wrong with these samples? Can you explain to me or give me a link where I can read about this?

You can check them in G25.They are not all bad,but some of them are showing some weird exotic components.Anyway,personally i do not care much tbh...i prefer to use the Empuries2 samples(more recent and more accurate).The genetic make up of Minoans and Mycenaeans is well known.Lazaridis et al paper explains everything you need to know.

https://www.nature.com/articles/nature23310?sf104716127=1

Markos
12-07-2020, 08:36 PM
I don't know how to model Asian populations that far east and south, but the fit is very bad for Ikaria/Samos(are you using scaled?). Try this instead. The fit is much better with the PAK reference, although the South Asian source is metal age not neothic. Other Greek samples do not show this except for Markos' father.


Target: Ikaria/Samos_scaled
Distance: 3.1972% / 0.03197238
71.0 Anatolia_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N
19.6 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
7.8 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
1.0 GEO_CHG
0.4 RUS_Devils_Gate_Cave_N
0.2 Levant_Natufian



Target: Ikaria/Samos_scaled
Distance: 2.9666% / 0.02966632
71.0 Anatolia_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N
17.2 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
7.0 PAK_Katelai_LBA
2.8 GEO_CHG
1.8 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
0.2 Levant_Natufian

These samples all have the same choice of South Asian source populations and picked only trace amounts, except Markos's father.


Target: 23abc_scaled(Kalymnos)
Distance: 3.1251% / 0.03125087
69.2 Anatolia_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N
19.2 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
10.6 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
0.8 GEO_CHG
0.2 Levant_Natufian


Target: GS_family(Fourni/Ikaria/Samos):GS_Dad(Fourni/Ikaria/Samos)
Distance: 2.7556% / 0.02755641
51.2 Anatolia_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N
26.0 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
14.8 Anatolia_Barcin_N
4.6 Levant_Natufian
2.8 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
0.6 PAK_Arkotkila_IA


Target: Greek_Crete
Distance: 1.7315% / 0.01731489
67.4 Anatolia_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N
21.6 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
8.4 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
1.8 Levant_Natufian
0.8 GEO_CHG


Target: Markos_family(Samos/Pelopennese)Markos_Father(Samos)
Distance: 3.4888% / 0.03488781
48.2 Anatolia_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N
23.4 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
16.6 Anatolia_Barcin_N
8.0 GEO_CHG
3.8 PAK_Katelai_LBA


Target: Chris_scaled(Peloponnese/Crete/AsiaMinor)
Distance: 2.0599% / 0.02059906
39.0 Anatolia_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N
28.8 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
25.2 Anatolia_Barcin_N
7.0 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N


Target: Greek_Smyrna
Distance: 1.5254% / 0.01525426
42.4 Anatolia_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N
29.2 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
22.8 Anatolia_Barcin_N
4.8 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
0.8 Levant_Natufian

Other than the fact my Southern Asian appears at 90% confidence, I have a pretty decent number of Roma DNA relatives - so it's basically confirmed. I would say they average around 3rd or 4th cousin. So maybe a great-great-grandmother or great-great-great-grandmother, through my paternal grandfather's side. Believe it or not, every single person I have been lucky enough to contact is adopted. There are whispers of some of their biological parents being from Euboea. I have tried hard to confirm with others but no responses so far. I am hoping there is someone like myself who has distant SA% but is aware of their recent ancestry or ~2 generations at least. I have also noticed the admixture peaks in Pakistan, rather than a bit further south. On Ancestry DNA, my SA admixture is categorized solely under "Central Asia - South" which they have primarily located in Afghanistan and Pakistan. I also think a chunk of my WA% comes from Roma admixture because my Iranian/Mesopotamiam category is higher than my Anatolian. This is a guess, but I noticed it's also consistent with my Roma matches.

XXD
12-07-2020, 10:01 PM
Other than the fact my Southern Asian appears at 90% confidence, I have a pretty decent number of Roma DNA relatives - so it's basically confirmed. I would say they average around 3rd or 4th cousin. So maybe a great-great-grandmother or great-great-great-grandmother, through my paternal grandfather's side. Believe it or not, every single person I have been lucky enough to contact is adopted. There are whispers of some of their biological parents being from Euboea. I have tried hard to confirm with others but no responses so far. I am hoping there is someone like myself who has distant SA% but is aware of their recent ancestry or ~2 generations at least. I have also noticed the admixture peaks in Pakistan, rather than a bit further south. On Ancestry DNA, my SA admixture is categorized solely under "Central Asia - South" which they have primarily located in Afghanistan and Pakistan. I also think a chunk of my WA% comes from Roma admixture because my Iranian/Mesopotamiam category is higher than my Anatolian. This is a guess, but I noticed it's also consistent with my Roma matches.

And there is absolutely no knowledge of this admix in your family? Could this unknown ancestor be heavily Greek admixed to not "pass" as a Romani? Yet a percentage up to 7% seems quite high after so many generations.

It is a fascinating admixture that you have, tells a very interesting and beautiful story. I just find it difficult to believe a 19th century Greek community to be socially accepting of a Greek/Romani wedding, don't you think? Except if it involved adoption into the local community?

Markos
12-07-2020, 10:47 PM
And there is absolutely no knowledge of this admix in your family? Could this unknown ancestor be heavily Greek admixed to not "pass" as a Romani? Yet a percentage up to 7% seems quite high after so many generations.

It is a fascinating admixture that you have, tells a very interesting and beautiful story. I just find it difficult to believe a 19th century Greek community to be socially accepting of a Greek/Romani wedding, don't you think? Except if it involved adoption into the local community?

Nobody I know of, no. No stories or anything. You can be 100% Greek Roma and pass as Greek, as I have seen in my matches and their photos. It could be a case she hid her background due to discrimination. I may never find out!! Fingers crossed I do one day.

Moderator
12-08-2020, 10:21 PM
This is a general warning to refrain from making inappropriate comments. This thread is being monitored and if continued, infractions will follow.

dosas
12-08-2020, 11:04 PM
rant.


You got any sources you can provide?

Michalis Moriopoulos
12-09-2020, 01:13 AM
There was a nice article posted about Roopkund Lake in the New Yorker. Razib provided some commentary on his blog (https://www.gnxp.com/WordPress/2020/12/07/the-greeks-in-the-mountains/). In the comments thread, Stuart Fiedel is continuing to insist (despite dismissals from Reich and Harney) that the Roopkund B samples were of Armenian origin. I replied to him in the same thread. I'll post my reply here, too, for anyone interested:



@Stuart Fiedel

With all due respect, there is no way on God’s green earth that the Roopkund B samples were Armenians. They don’t cluster anywhere NEAR Armenians. Of the samples that made it into the Eurogenes’ G25 PCA (a wonderful tool for open science), most of the cohort clearly clusters with Aegean Greeks. Two of the samples were probably Balkan Greeks. And one of them was very likely a Cappadocian Greek. Granted, this last one is closer to Armenians than the others, but Cappadocian Greeks are still easily distinguished from Armenians.

Below is an annotated West Eurasian PCA illustrating what I’m talking about. Roopkund B samples in aqua, Armenians in orange, mainland Greek samples in gold, Aegean Greeks in indigo, Cypriots in maroon, Western Anatolian Greeks in hot pink, Cappadocian Greeks in chartreuse, and Pontic Greeks in turqouise. I removed Southern Italian and Western Jewish samples from the PCA for better visualization. These genetically East Med groups strongly overlap with Aegean Greeks due to shared ancestry (much of that affinity very likely mediated by ancient Greek gene flow into the ancestors of Southern Italians and Jews, actually).

https://i.imgur.com/tNReaRU.png

And here are the distances of each sample compared to modern averages:

https://i.imgur.com/o9MmrW1.png

That’s as close to an open and shut case you’re ever going to see. So I don’t know why you’d push for an Armenian origin here when it’s complete non-starter autosomally. These guys were East Meds, not Transcaucasians. You can make an argument that some of these individuals MIGHT have been Southern Italians or Western Jews (as these groups overlap strongly with Greek islanders, like I said), but assuming they were all Greek is a far more parsimonious option. I don’t know why these intrepid East Meds trekked to Roopkund either, but they were clearly related to people like me, not to Armenians.

TuaMan
12-09-2020, 01:37 AM
Anything related with Slavs-BaltoSlavs. You can use The empuries samples(since The Mycenaean showing Some weird admixtures and have errors). You can use a Bronze Age Anatolian reference and Something from The Levant either from IA or Hellenistic and Roman ages. Both Greeks and Albanians would be modeled better when we are going to have samples from medieval balkans. Using The Serbian samples are not a bad idea but I prefer to model With ancient samples instead With modern.

I guess I meant more along the lines what exact steppe or immediate-steppe derived culture serves as the best or most likely proxy for the original IE side of Albanians/Greeks? Some off-shoot of Yamnaya, Corded Ware, Bell Beaker, or something? Not counting later waves of admixture with other IE descended groups like Germanics or Slavs or what have you which would have also introduced other streams of IE ancestry.

TonyC
12-09-2020, 01:46 AM
There was a nice article posted about Roopkund Lake in the New Yorker. Razib provided some commentary on his blog (https://www.gnxp.com/WordPress/2020/12/07/the-greeks-in-the-mountains/). In the comments thread, Stuart Fiedel is continuing to insist (despite dismissals from Reich and Harney) that the Roopkund B samples were of Armenian origin. I replied to him in the same thread. I'll post my reply here, too, for anyone interested:
Well said!

Seabass
12-09-2020, 04:53 AM
There was a nice article posted about Roopkund Lake in the New Yorker. Razib provided some commentary on his blog (https://www.gnxp.com/WordPress/2020/12/07/the-greeks-in-the-mountains/). In the comments thread, Stuart Fiedel is continuing to insist (despite dismissals from Reich and Harney) that the Roopkund B samples were of Armenian origin. I replied to him in the same thread. I'll post my reply here, too, for anyone interested:

The way in which they plot which you've just demonstrated and the fact that the team could decipher that Group B consumed a Mediterranean diet far different to Group A, is more than enough to convince me they have to be majority Greek Islanders. The polygon which intersects with Cypriots, is this the Kos Islander or Rhodes Islanders? The new Dodocanese group.

My PCA skills with PAST are pretty bad, but it will look great when maybe either Agga or yourself make a new West-Eurasia plot in future with the Western Jews and new Greek samples.

hartaisarlag
12-09-2020, 05:01 AM
There was a nice article posted about Roopkund Lake in the New Yorker. Razib provided some commentary on his blog (https://www.gnxp.com/WordPress/2020/12/07/the-greeks-in-the-mountains/). In the comments thread, Stuart Fiedel is continuing to insist (despite dismissals from Reich and Harney) that the Roopkund B samples were of Armenian origin. I replied to him in the same thread. I'll post my reply here, too, for anyone interested:

Good responses. He's picking a weird hill to die on. Where are the terminal haplogroup calls again? Happy to address him on that front.

Michalis Moriopoulos
12-09-2020, 05:02 AM
The polygon which intersects with Cypriots, is this the Kos Islander or Rhodes Islanders?

Those are the Rhodians! Really nice to have them, even if they're not super-high coverage.

hartaisarlag
12-09-2020, 05:02 AM
Good responses. He's picking a weird hill to die on. Where are the terminal haplogroup calls again? Happy to address him on that front.

Never mind, found 'em.

Johnny ola
12-09-2020, 11:18 AM
I guess I meant more along the lines what exact steppe or immediate-steppe derived culture serves as the best or most likely proxy for the original IE side of Albanians/Greeks? Some off-shoot of Yamnaya, Corded Ware, Bell Beaker, or something? Not counting later waves of admixture with other IE descended groups like Germanics or Slavs or what have you which would have also introduced other streams of IE ancestry.

Definitely Not BB.

XXD
12-09-2020, 07:38 PM
In modelling modern Greek populations using ancient samples, why not use the Greek samples from the Lombard cemetery of Collegno, as a proxy for preslavic Greeks? I get worst fits compared to ITA ROME IMPERIAL though, any ideas why?

The coordinates are here:

ITA_Collegno_MA_o1:CL25,0.105855,0.151314,-0.029415,-0.052972,0.001846,-0.015897,-0.00282,-0.004615,0.001227,0.016583,0.006496,0.007643,-0.010258,0.004266,-0.004343,-0.004243,0.009518,-0.006081,0.011187,0.002126,-0.004492,0.009398,0.001479,-0.002048,0
ITA_Collegno_MA_o1:CL30,0.113823,0.150298,-0.026398,-0.056848,0.008001,-0.015897,0.005875,0.001846,0.006136,0.015308,0.010 068,0.000599,-0.004757,0.003303,-0.0019,0.000133,0.005085,0.002787,0.004525,-0.001251,-0.001248,-0.008903,0.009983,-0.00253,-0.003233
ITA_Collegno_MA_o1:CL38,0.101303,0.144205,-0.018856,-0.055556,0.007386,-0.016455,-0.00846,-0.008538,-0.004704,0.014397,0.004709,0.009591,-0.00996,-0.005643,-0.014251,0.000928,0.010561,0,-0.002263,0.001251,0.001123,0.006306,-0.002095,0.010001,0.008023

Described in more detail here:

https://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2018/10/greeks-in-longobard-cemetery.html

XXD
12-09-2020, 07:42 PM
Here plotted on the European PCA, with ITA ROME IMPERIAL as a comparison.

41622

Greekscholar
12-09-2020, 09:01 PM
In modelling modern Greek populations using ancient samples, why not use the Greek samples from the Lombard cemetery of Collegno, as a proxy for preslavic Greeks? I get worst fits compared to ITA ROME IMPERIAL though, any ideas why?

The coordinates are here:

ITA_Collegno_MA_o1:CL25,0.105855,0.151314,-0.029415,-0.052972,0.001846,-0.015897,-0.00282,-0.004615,0.001227,0.016583,0.006496,0.007643,-0.010258,0.004266,-0.004343,-0.004243,0.009518,-0.006081,0.011187,0.002126,-0.004492,0.009398,0.001479,-0.002048,0
ITA_Collegno_MA_o1:CL30,0.113823,0.150298,-0.026398,-0.056848,0.008001,-0.015897,0.005875,0.001846,0.006136,0.015308,0.010 068,0.000599,-0.004757,0.003303,-0.0019,0.000133,0.005085,0.002787,0.004525,-0.001251,-0.001248,-0.008903,0.009983,-0.00253,-0.003233
ITA_Collegno_MA_o1:CL38,0.101303,0.144205,-0.018856,-0.055556,0.007386,-0.016455,-0.00846,-0.008538,-0.004704,0.014397,0.004709,0.009591,-0.00996,-0.005643,-0.014251,0.000928,0.010561,0,-0.002263,0.001251,0.001123,0.006306,-0.002095,0.010001,0.008023

Described in more detail here:

https://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2018/10/greeks-in-longobard-cemetery.html

Sure, you can use these samples. They work much like Roman Imperial, low Steppe, close to the Kos and Dodecanese samples. Mix it with Hun_Avar_Szolad and you get some good distances to modern Greeks.

Target: Greek_Kos
Distance: 1.4507% / 0.01450744
98.6 ITA_Collegno_MA_o1
1.4 HUN_Avar_Szolad

Target: Greek_Crete
Distance: 1.3810% / 0.01381029
90.8 ITA_Collegno_MA_o1
9.2 HUN_Avar_Szolad

Target: Greek_Laconia
Distance: 2.0803% / 0.02080283
79.4 ITA_Collegno_MA_o1
20.6 HUN_Avar_Szolad

Target: Greek_Peloponnese
Distance: 1.7501% / 0.01750150
73.6 ITA_Collegno_MA_o1
26.4 HUN_Avar_Szolad

Target: Greek_Thessaly
Distance: 2.1586% / 0.02158630
68.2 ITA_Collegno_MA_o1
31.8 HUN_Avar_Szolad

Target: Greek_Macedonia
Distance: 1.8510% / 0.01851043
64.4 ITA_Collegno_MA_o1
35.6 HUN_Avar_Szolad

Distance to: ITA_Collegno_MA_o1:CL30
0.02433108 Greek_Dodecanese
0.02677308 Greek_Kos
0.02912672 Greek_Crete
0.03171766 Ashkenazi_Germany
0.03221123 Italian_Calabria
0.03261130 Italian_Campania
0.03406663 Italian_Jew
0.03495149 Romaniote_Jew
0.03509335 Sephardic_Jew
0.03571066 Italian_Basilicata
0.03638209 Cypriot
0.03734487 Italian_Apulia
0.03765735 Sicilian_East
0.03774733 Ashkenazi_Poland
0.03792020 Ashkenazi_Lithuania
0.03815979 Ashkenazi_Belarussia
0.04085833 Ashkenazi_Ukraine
0.04152158 Italian_Abruzzo
0.04183888 Maltese
0.04193893 Ashkenazi_Russia
0.04205380 Greek_Izmir
0.04272977 Greek_Central_Anatolia
0.04279206 Syrian_Jew
0.04450227 Italian_Molise
0.04562175 Greek_Laconia

Seabass
12-09-2020, 11:59 PM
In modelling modern Greek populations using ancient samples, why not use the Greek samples from the Lombard cemetery of Collegno, as a proxy for preslavic Greeks? I get worst fits compared to ITA ROME IMPERIAL though, any ideas why?

They are from a medieval era which does shortly pre-date Slavic migrations into Greece, but the three outliers could well have been a couple or few generations Italian (only in the modern sense) for all we know, but just maybe belonging specifically to a Greek community. Some of those outliers look highly likely to have trace to minor levels of North African and actual Italic DNA which might explain why you get better fits with the ITA Rome Imperial AVG, which also has plenty more samples to even out the coordinates. DEU_MA_O is one sample that may be of Greek or Southern Balkan origin unaffected by Slavic migrations.

Amerismed
12-10-2020, 05:20 AM
That is correct, I couldnt agree more how they connected.

TonyC
12-10-2020, 02:39 PM
Sure, you can use these samples. They work much like Roman Imperial, low Steppe, close to the Kos and Dodecanese samples. Mix it with Hun_Avar_Szolad and you get some good distances to modern Greeks.

Target: Greek_Kos
Distance: 1.4507% / 0.01450744
98.6 ITA_Collegno_MA_o1
1.4 HUN_Avar_Szolad

Target: Greek_Crete
Distance: 1.3810% / 0.01381029
90.8 ITA_Collegno_MA_o1
9.2 HUN_Avar_Szolad

Target: Greek_Laconia
Distance: 2.0803% / 0.02080283
79.4 ITA_Collegno_MA_o1
20.6 HUN_Avar_Szolad

Target: Greek_Peloponnese
Distance: 1.7501% / 0.01750150
73.6 ITA_Collegno_MA_o1
26.4 HUN_Avar_Szolad

Target: Greek_Thessaly
Distance: 2.1586% / 0.02158630
68.2 ITA_Collegno_MA_o1
31.8 HUN_Avar_Szolad

Target: Greek_Macedonia
Distance: 1.8510% / 0.01851043
64.4 ITA_Collegno_MA_o1
35.6 HUN_Avar_Szolad

Distance to: ITA_Collegno_MA_o1:CL30
0.02433108 Greek_Dodecanese
0.02677308 Greek_Kos
0.02912672 Greek_Crete
0.03171766 Ashkenazi_Germany
0.03221123 Italian_Calabria
0.03261130 Italian_Campania
0.03406663 Italian_Jew
0.03495149 Romaniote_Jew
0.03509335 Sephardic_Jew
0.03571066 Italian_Basilicata
0.03638209 Cypriot
0.03734487 Italian_Apulia
0.03765735 Sicilian_East
0.03774733 Ashkenazi_Poland
0.03792020 Ashkenazi_Lithuania
0.03815979 Ashkenazi_Belarussia
0.04085833 Ashkenazi_Ukraine
0.04152158 Italian_Abruzzo
0.04183888 Maltese
0.04193893 Ashkenazi_Russia
0.04205380 Greek_Izmir
0.04272977 Greek_Central_Anatolia
0.04279206 Syrian_Jew
0.04450227 Italian_Molise
0.04562175 Greek_Laconia

Doesn't work very well for me:

Distance: 3.1983% / 0.03198308
Target: Anthony_C_scaled
71.6 ITA_Collegno_MA_o1
28.4 HUN_Avar_Szolad

Distance to: Anthony_C_scaled
0.05811330 ITA_Collegno_MA_o1
0.12617734 HUN_Avar_Szolad

TonyC
12-10-2020, 02:45 PM
Do you think I may need a pre Slavic Balkanic source if we're using MA samples?

Greekscholar
12-10-2020, 03:08 PM
Do you think I may need a pre Slavic Balkanic source if we're using MA samples?

My guess is that Collegno sample is too east shifted for your ancestry. Your fit would certainly improve with a MA Balkan population that is EEF + Steppe,


Target: Anthony_C_scaled(Peloponnese)
Distance: 2.7835% / 0.02783506
54.2 Yamnaya_BGR
42.6 Anatolia_Barcin_N
2.4 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
0.8 Levant_Natufian

Target: ITA_Collegno_MA_o1
Distance: 2.1422% / 0.02142217
46.0 Anatolia_Barcin_N
22.0 Yamnaya_BGR
12.0 GEO_CHG
10.2 Levant_Natufian
9.8 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N

vasil
12-10-2020, 03:39 PM
Here is me to compare with:
Target: Vasil_scaled
Distance: 2.3405% / 0.02340497
56.6 HUN_Avar_Szolad
43.4 ITA_Collegno_MA_o1

TonyC
12-10-2020, 04:01 PM
My guess is that Collegno sample is too east shifted for your ancestry. Your fit would certainly improve with a MA Balkan population that is EEF + Steppe,


Target: Anthony_C_scaled(Peloponnese)
Distance: 2.7835% / 0.02783506
54.2 Yamnaya_BGR
42.6 Anatolia_Barcin_N
2.4 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
0.8 Levant_Natufian

Target: ITA_Collegno_MA_o1
Distance: 2.1422% / 0.02142217
46.0 Anatolia_Barcin_N
22.0 Yamnaya_BGR
12.0 GEO_CHG
10.2 Levant_Natufian
9.8 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
That’s what I suspected thanks for running that model!

TonyC
12-10-2020, 04:20 PM
My guess is that Collegno sample is too east shifted for your ancestry. Your fit would certainly improve with a MA Balkan population that is EEF + Steppe,


Target: Anthony_C_scaled(Peloponnese)
Distance: 2.7835% / 0.02783506
54.2 Yamnaya_BGR
42.6 Anatolia_Barcin_N
2.4 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
0.8 Levant_Natufian

Target: ITA_Collegno_MA_o1
Distance: 2.1422% / 0.02142217
46.0 Anatolia_Barcin_N
22.0 Yamnaya_BGR
12.0 GEO_CHG
10.2 Levant_Natufian
9.8 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N

One other quick question what would be distinction between CHG and Iran Neolithic sample in this model?

Greekscholar
12-10-2020, 05:11 PM
One other quick question what would be distinction between CHG and Iran Neolithic sample in this model?

I don't have a great answer to how they differ on a deeper level. The two populations are not very similar though, and both are needed in modeling or distance goes way up for most individuals. Dosas has mentioned the difference pretty recently, so maybe search his posts in the last month or so.

Distance to: GEO_CHG
0.18535230 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
0.22904924 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
0.33574926 Anatolia_Barcin_N
0.38024257 Levant_Natufian
0.45972606 Baltic_LVA_HG
0.51932591 WHG
0.61825611 RUS_Devils_Gate_Cave_N

Johnny ola
12-10-2020, 05:30 PM
I don't have a great answer to how they differ on a deeper level. The two populations are not very similar though, and both are needed in modeling or distance goes way up for most individuals. Dosas has mentioned the difference pretty recently, so maybe search his posts in the last month or so.

Distance to: GEO_CHG
0.18535230 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
0.22904924 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
0.33574926 Anatolia_Barcin_N
0.38024257 Levant_Natufian
0.45972606 Baltic_LVA_HG
0.51932591 WHG
0.61825611 RUS_Devils_Gate_Cave_N

They are close but Not identical. Iran N Is more Basal while CHG Is more western(Dzudzuana Like). But both sharing The same ANE related admixture. CHG Is Also more influental in The formation of Steppe people while Iran N Is a major admixture for Mesopotamian and Levantine genetics.

TonyC
12-10-2020, 08:16 PM
One other quick question what would be distinction between CHG and Iran Neolithic sample in this model?

Pretty much the same whether it's CHG or Iran Neolithic pretty negligible. Not sure where it's coming from but in my case pretty ancient influence.
Distance: 2.8446% / 0.02844646
Target: Anthony_C_scaled
54.3 Yamnaya_BGR
43.4 TUR_Barcin_N
2.3 GEO_CHG

Johnny ola
12-10-2020, 09:11 PM
Pretty much the same whether it's CHG or Iran Neolithic pretty negligible. Not sure where it's coming from but in my case pretty ancient influence.
Distance: 2.8446% / 0.02844646
Target: Anthony_C_scaled
54.3 Yamnaya_BGR
43.4 TUR_Barcin_N
2.3 GEO_CHG

It is from your Anatolian admixture.

Greekscholar
12-10-2020, 10:31 PM
I just noticed this update to the K13 spreadsheet. It isn't a big deal, but anyone know what islands this covers?

Distance to: GS
2.42206523 Greek_North_Aegean
3.19785866 IT_Calabria_citra
3.54009887 IT_Calabria
3.59874978 Greek_Crete
3.61846653 IT_Calabria_ultra
3.76636429 IT_Campania
4.04484858 Greek_Ionia
4.12840163 Malta
4.77057649 Sicily
4.83824348 Greek_Cyclades
4.85945470 IT_Apulia
5.03306070 IT_Sannio
5.11914055 IT_Salento
5.19931726 IT_Puglia
5.52545926 IT_Molise
5.64394366 Greek_Dodecanese
6.31956486 Greek_Andros_Island
6.37812668 IT_Abruzzo
6.38093253 IT_Basilicata
6.38731556 IT_Lucania
6.44550231 Ashkenazi
6.48609281 Moldova_Jewish
6.53290135 Greek_Chios
7.02532562 Greek_Athens
7.34491661 Greek_Symi_Island

TonyC
12-10-2020, 10:36 PM
Here is me to compare with:
Target: Vasil_scaled
Distance: 2.3405% / 0.02340497
56.6 HUN_Avar_Szolad
43.4 ITA_Collegno_MA_o1

Could you run your coordinates with the Yamnaya BGR and Anatolia Barcin samples?

23abc
12-10-2020, 11:36 PM
In modelling modern Greek populations using ancient samples, why not use the Greek samples from the Lombard cemetery of Collegno, as a proxy for preslavic Greeks? I get worst fits compared to ITA ROME IMPERIAL though, any ideas why?

The coordinates are here:

ITA_Collegno_MA_o1:CL25,0.105855,0.151314,-0.029415,-0.052972,0.001846,-0.015897,-0.00282,-0.004615,0.001227,0.016583,0.006496,0.007643,-0.010258,0.004266,-0.004343,-0.004243,0.009518,-0.006081,0.011187,0.002126,-0.004492,0.009398,0.001479,-0.002048,0
ITA_Collegno_MA_o1:CL30,0.113823,0.150298,-0.026398,-0.056848,0.008001,-0.015897,0.005875,0.001846,0.006136,0.015308,0.010 068,0.000599,-0.004757,0.003303,-0.0019,0.000133,0.005085,0.002787,0.004525,-0.001251,-0.001248,-0.008903,0.009983,-0.00253,-0.003233
ITA_Collegno_MA_o1:CL38,0.101303,0.144205,-0.018856,-0.055556,0.007386,-0.016455,-0.00846,-0.008538,-0.004704,0.014397,0.004709,0.009591,-0.00996,-0.005643,-0.014251,0.000928,0.010561,0,-0.002263,0.001251,0.001123,0.006306,-0.002095,0.010001,0.008023

Described in more detail here:

https://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2018/10/greeks-in-longobard-cemetery.html

Those Collegno_MA outliers are so close to Dodecanese islanders that I think they could actually be Dodecanese or Anatolian Greeks in the first place. It's possible there were also still people in Italy with such a West Asian shift but they certainly don't exist today, even the most southern Italians.

Using the model people seem to be doing here, you can see how close they are to myself. And that's even with me being something like 7/8 Dodecanese.

Distance: 2.1480% / 0.02148009
Target: 23abc
98.1 ITA_Collegno_MA_o1
1.9 HUN_Avar_Szolad

Greekscholar
12-10-2020, 11:48 PM
Could you run your coordinates with the Yamnaya BGR and Anatolia Barcin samples?

I think this sample is worthy of discussion as well. Some Greeks get better fits (including TonyC) using BGR rather than Samara. Dosas spoke with me about this a few months ago, but this sample could be the proximate source (or closer to it) of Greek Steppe input, rather than Samara, which has some eastern elements absent in modern Greeks. I assume this would mean it is an ancestral population for Southern Slavs as well.

I'll post some matrixes comparing the two samples here soon, but I figured I would start the discussion.

Johnny ola
12-10-2020, 11:58 PM
I think this sample is worthy of discussion as well. Some Greeks get better fits (including TonyC) using BGR rather than Samara. Dosas spoke with me about this a few months ago, but this sample could be the proximate source (or closer to it) of Greek Steppe input, rather than Samara, which has some eastern elements absent in modern Greeks. I assume this would mean it is an ancestral population for Southern Slavs as well.

I'll post some matrixes comparing the two samples here soon, but I figured I would start the discussion.

Yamnaya BGR is half farmer in DNA and half steppe.It is an expanded version of Yamnaya in balkans but with half of the autosomal being 'Farmer' like.

Greekscholar
12-11-2020, 01:17 AM
Yamnaya BGR is half farmer in DNA and half steppe.It is an expanded version of Yamnaya in balkans but with half of the autosomal being 'Farmer' like.

Thanks!

Yes, the Yamnaya BGR sample can be modeled pretty well using other parts of the neolithic calculator


Target: Yamnaya_BGR
Distance: 3.7374% / 0.03737396
47.4 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
34.4 Anatolia_Barcin_N
9.2 GEO_CHG
8.8 Baltic_LVA_HG
0.2 RUS_Devils_Gate_Cave_N

Samara cannot. I used all ancient references to get this model, but I don't know if it is any good, or even makes sense time period wise.

Target: Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
Distance: 0.8008% / 0.00800826 | ADC: 0.25x RC
34.2 RUS_Poltavka
23.8 RUS_Afanasievo
19.6 Yamnaya_KAZ_Karagash
12.0 RUS_Kubano-Tersk
3.8 RUS_Vonyuchka_En
3.0 UKR_Meso
2.4 RUS_Khvalynsk_En
1.0 Yamnaya_RUS_Kalmykia
0.2 MNG_Afanasievo_1

Greekscholar
12-11-2020, 01:22 AM
Target: Greek_Kos
Distance: 1.8011% / 0.01801054
55.4 Anatolia_Barcin_N
15.6 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
11.8 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
9.4 GEO_CHG
7.8 Levant_Natufian

vs


Target: Greek_Kos
Distance: 2.1117% / 0.02111694
47.8 Anatolia_Barcin_N
22.6 Yamnaya_BGR
13.0 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
9.2 GEO_CHG
7.4 Levant_Natufian


Target: Greek_Thessaly
Distance: 2.3197% / 0.02319677
57.8 Anatolia_Barcin_N
33.8 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
2.8 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
2.0 Baltic_LVA_HG
2.0 Levant_Natufian
1.6 GEO_CHG

vs


Target: Greek_Thessaly
Distance: 1.9239% / 0.01923872
57.4 Yamnaya_BGR
37.4 Anatolia_Barcin_N
3.2 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
2.0 Levant_Natufian

Johnny ola
12-11-2020, 01:30 AM
Thanks!

Yes, the Yamnaya BGR sample can be modeled pretty well using other parts of the neolithic calculator


Target: Yamnaya_BGR
Distance: 3.7374% / 0.03737396
47.4 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
34.4 Anatolia_Barcin_N
9.2 GEO_CHG
8.8 Baltic_LVA_HG
0.2 RUS_Devils_Gate_Cave_N

Samara cannot. I used all ancient references to get this model, but I don't know if it is any good, or even makes sense time period wise.

Target: Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
Distance: 0.8008% / 0.00800826 | ADC: 0.25x RC
34.2 RUS_Poltavka
23.8 RUS_Afanasievo
19.6 Yamnaya_KAZ_Karagash
12.0 RUS_Kubano-Tersk
3.8 RUS_Vonyuchka_En
3.0 UKR_Meso
2.4 RUS_Khvalynsk_En
1.0 Yamnaya_RUS_Kalmykia
0.2 MNG_Afanasievo_1

I would not use these refrences to model modern Greeks IMO.You can easily estimate both the Greek(Mycenaean like) and Slavic/Balkanic steppe with the samples of 'Empuries2' and 'Slozad'.You can aslo use some Paleobalkan refrences like 'BGR IA' or the 'HRV IA' etc,but you are not gonna see huge diffrences.. since the 'Empuries2' and the 'Anatolia BA' will estimate better the Pre-Slavic(EEF+Steppe) profile in your model.

Also,Yamnaya was not the culture that Greeks spread out.It is 2early for it IMO.Greeks prolly come either from KMK-Babyno or Catacomb.So,i don't see Yamnaya being related with Greeks and the Greek world in general.But i do not want to be absolute..we need samples to be sure about it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multi-cordoned_ware_culture
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catacomb_culture

Markos
12-11-2020, 04:11 AM
I just noticed this update to the K13 spreadsheet. It isn't a big deal, but anyone know what islands this covers?

Distance to: GS
2.42206523 Greek_North_Aegean
3.19785866 IT_Calabria_citra
3.54009887 IT_Calabria
3.59874978 Greek_Crete
3.61846653 IT_Calabria_ultra
3.76636429 IT_Campania
4.04484858 Greek_Ionia
4.12840163 Malta
4.77057649 Sicily
4.83824348 Greek_Cyclades
4.85945470 IT_Apulia
5.03306070 IT_Sannio
5.11914055 IT_Salento
5.19931726 IT_Puglia
5.52545926 IT_Molise
5.64394366 Greek_Dodecanese
6.31956486 Greek_Andros_Island
6.37812668 IT_Abruzzo
6.38093253 IT_Basilicata
6.38731556 IT_Lucania
6.44550231 Ashkenazi
6.48609281 Moldova_Jewish
6.53290135 Greek_Chios
7.02532562 Greek_Athens
7.34491661 Greek_Symi_Island

Greek_North_Aegean:Ikaria,13.33,7.19,20.67,15.84,3 3.86,5.72,3.22,0,0,0.08,0.1,0,0
Greek_North_Aegean:Ikaria,13.89,10.75,21.39,13.99, 33.93,4.35,0,0.47,0.82,0.16,0,0,0.24
Greek_North_Aegean:Ikaria,12.12,11.27,22.78,14.1,3 2.13,6.12,0,0.09,0.38,0,0.44,0.48,0.11
Greek_North_Aegean:Ikaria,15.06,4.65,24.39,16.08,3 3.83,5,0,0.72,0.07,0,0.2,0,0
Greek_North_Aegean:Ikaria,11.06,8.97,23.3,17.2,33. 59,5.45,0,0,0,0,0.42,0,0
Greek_North_Aegean:Ikaria,17.49,12.83,18.89,15.52, 27.38,6.38,0.8,0,0.17,0.3,0,0.23,0
Greek_North_Aegean:Ikaria,13.33,7.19,20.67,15.84,3 3.86,5.72,3.22,0,0,0.08,0.1,0,0
Greek_North_Aegean:Samos,20.14,9.36,19.56,13,32.63 ,2.43,1.48,0.37,0,0.35,0.31,0.33,0
Greek_North_Aegean:Samos,17.84,11.16,21.94,14.54,2 8.08,4.41,0.65,0.19,0,0,0.09,1.08,0
Greek_North_Aegean:Chios,9.6,6.31,21.16,20.56,35.3 1,6.06,0,0.99,0,0,0,0,0
Greek_North_Aegean:Chios,14.81,7.43,20.17,20.11,32 .59,3.47,0,0.76,0,0.08,0,0.57,0
Greek_North_Aegean:Chios,12.39,6.3,21.03,19.95,31. 23,7.15,0,0,1.37,0,0.59,0,0
Greek_North_Aegean:Chios,16.64,4.26,21.36,20.91,30 .58,5.64,0,0,0.36,0,0.25,0,0
Greek_North_Aegean:Chios,14.9,4.86,20.99,18.75,33. 83,5.74,0,0,0.17,0,0,0.76,0
Greek_North_Aegean:North Aegean,15.95,9.23,19.08,17.79,33.32,4.42,0,0,0.4,0 ,0,0,0
average:Greek_North_Aegean,14.57,8.12,21.16,16.95, 32.41,5.2,0.62,0.24,0.25,0.07,0.17,0.23,0.02

Sorcelow
12-11-2020, 04:22 AM
I've been playing around with DEU_MA_o:STR_300, which is supposedly a Greek sample from the medieval period. Indeed, the sample clusters relatively close to the Mycenaeans and Emporiotes, but clearly has a higher cut of steppe ancestry, shifting it moderately to the north. Below are some two way models I produced with R. I'm inclined to believe that it had a grandparent that had a genetic profile similar to today's South Slavs, but maybe I'm reading too much into it.

"23.5% North_Macedonian (N=8) + 76.5% Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2" "0.0332"
"14.3% CZE_Early_Slav + 85.7% Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2" "0.0335"

On another note only tangentially related to Greek genetics, I am almost convinced that HUN_MA_Szolad_o1 is an Illyrian from modern day Bosnia/Serbia/Montenegro/Northern Albania. Check the two way models out below:

"37.6% HRV_IA + 62.4% Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2" "0.0244"
"72.7% HUN_Starcevo_N + 27.3% RUS_Catacomb" "0.0264"

Markos
12-11-2020, 04:36 AM
Using the updated K13 spreadsheet:

Distance to: Markos
3.30811124 Greek_Athens
3.57408730 Greek_Central
3.95018987 Greek_Ionia
4.25076464 Greek_Cyclades

Distance: 1.7113% / 1.71134144
Target: Markos | ADC: 0.25x RC
46.7 Greek_West
19.5 Greek_North_Aegean
16.2 IT_Salento
11.6 Ashkenazi
6.0 Moldova_Roma

Mum's:

Distance to: MarkosMother
3.56595008 Greek_West
3.60768624 Greek_Peloponnese
4.08279316 Greek_Eastern-Thrace
4.19273181 Albanian_Tosk

Distance: 1.5849% / 1.58488183
Target: MarkosMother | ADC: 0.5x RC
42.4 Albanian_Tosk
24.8 Turk_Central_Macedonia
21.4 Ashkenazi
11.4 Greek_Eastern-Thrace

Johnny ola
12-11-2020, 02:51 PM
Using the updated K13 spreadsheet:

Distance to: Markos
3.30811124 Greek_Athens
3.57408730 Greek_Central
3.95018987 Greek_Ionia
4.25076464 Greek_Cyclades

Distance: 1.7113% / 1.71134144
Target: Markos | ADC: 0.25x RC
46.7 Greek_West
19.5 Greek_North_Aegean
16.2 IT_Salento
11.6 Ashkenazi
6.0 Moldova_Roma

Mum's:

Distance to: MarkosMother
3.56595008 Greek_West
3.60768624 Greek_Peloponnese
4.08279316 Greek_Eastern-Thrace
4.19273181 Albanian_Tosk

Distance: 1.5849% / 1.58488183
Target: MarkosMother | ADC: 0.5x RC
42.4 Albanian_Tosk
24.8 Turk_Central_Macedonia
21.4 Ashkenazi
11.4 Greek_Eastern-Thrace

Where is your mother from?

Greekscholar
12-11-2020, 03:06 PM
Greek_North_Aegean:Ikaria,13.33,7.19,20.67,15.84,3 3.86,5.72,3.22,0,0,0.08,0.1,0,0
Greek_North_Aegean:Ikaria,13.89,10.75,21.39,13.99, 33.93,4.35,0,0.47,0.82,0.16,0,0,0.24
Greek_North_Aegean:Ikaria,12.12,11.27,22.78,14.1,3 2.13,6.12,0,0.09,0.38,0,0.44,0.48,0.11
Greek_North_Aegean:Ikaria,15.06,4.65,24.39,16.08,3 3.83,5,0,0.72,0.07,0,0.2,0,0
Greek_North_Aegean:Ikaria,11.06,8.97,23.3,17.2,33. 59,5.45,0,0,0,0,0.42,0,0
Greek_North_Aegean:Ikaria,17.49,12.83,18.89,15.52, 27.38,6.38,0.8,0,0.17,0.3,0,0.23,0
Greek_North_Aegean:Ikaria,13.33,7.19,20.67,15.84,3 3.86,5.72,3.22,0,0,0.08,0.1,0,0
Greek_North_Aegean:Samos,20.14,9.36,19.56,13,32.63 ,2.43,1.48,0.37,0,0.35,0.31,0.33,0
Greek_North_Aegean:Samos,17.84,11.16,21.94,14.54,2 8.08,4.41,0.65,0.19,0,0,0.09,1.08,0
Greek_North_Aegean:Chios,9.6,6.31,21.16,20.56,35.3 1,6.06,0,0.99,0,0,0,0,0
Greek_North_Aegean:Chios,14.81,7.43,20.17,20.11,32 .59,3.47,0,0.76,0,0.08,0,0.57,0
Greek_North_Aegean:Chios,12.39,6.3,21.03,19.95,31. 23,7.15,0,0,1.37,0,0.59,0,0
Greek_North_Aegean:Chios,16.64,4.26,21.36,20.91,30 .58,5.64,0,0,0.36,0,0.25,0,0
Greek_North_Aegean:Chios,14.9,4.86,20.99,18.75,33. 83,5.74,0,0,0.17,0,0,0.76,0
Greek_North_Aegean:North Aegean,15.95,9.23,19.08,17.79,33.32,4.42,0,0,0.4,0 ,0,0,0
average:Greek_North_Aegean,14.57,8.12,21.16,16.95, 32.41,5.2,0.62,0.24,0.25,0.07,0.17,0.23,0.02

Yes, great. Thanks so much. There is a good bit of variations in these samples, but the sample average ends up close to Crete on K13.


Distance to: average:Greek_North_Aegean
0.00000000 Greek_North_Aegean
2.23700693 Greek_Crete
3.50637990 IT_Calabria
3.54746388 IT_Calabria_citra
3.67070838 Greek_Dodecanese
3.85262248 IT_Calabria_ultra
4.39037584 Greek_Chios
4.62232625 IT_Campania
4.76137585 Malta
4.80077077 Greek_Ionia
5.70825718 Greek_Cyclades
5.73365503 Sicily
5.92913990 IT_Apulia
6.03158354 IT_Salento
6.17192839 IT_Sannio
6.25050398 Greek_Symi_Island
6.27986465 IT_Puglia
6.93987752 IT_Molise
7.25880844 Greek_Andros_Island
7.46083775 IT_Basilicata
7.47707162 IT_Lucania
7.79737776 IT_Abruzzo
8.00558555 Moldova_Jewish
8.01043694 Ashkenazi
8.13431005 Greek_Athens


Distance to: GS
2.42206523 average:Greek_North_Aegean
3.37123123 Greek_North_Aegean:NorthAegean
3.47548558 Greek_North_Aegean:Ikaria
4.71915247 Greek_North_Aegean:Ikaria
4.71915247 Greek_North_Aegean:Ikaria
5.13876444 Greek_North_Aegean:Ikaria
5.49941815 Greek_North_Aegean:Chios
5.60486396 Greek_North_Aegean:Chios
5.66166937 Greek_North_Aegean:Ikaria
5.77449565 Greek_North_Aegean:Ikaria
5.88053569 Greek_North_Aegean:Samos
5.99537322 Greek_North_Aegean:Samos
7.03867885 Greek_North_Aegean:Chios
7.36955901 Greek_North_Aegean:Ikaria
7.70247363 Greek_North_Aegean:Chios
9.00804085 Greek_North_Aegean:Chios

Greekscholar
12-11-2020, 03:09 PM
I would not use these refrences to model modern Greeks IMO.You can easily estimate both the Greek(Mycenaean like) and Slavic/Balkanic steppe with the samples of 'Empuries2' and 'Slozad'.You can aslo use some Paleobalkan refrences like 'BGR IA' or the 'HRV IA' etc,but you are not gonna see huge diffrences.. since the 'Empuries2' and the 'Anatolia BA' will estimate better the Pre-Slavic(EEF+Steppe) profile in your model.

Also,Yamnaya was not the culture that Greeks spread out.It is 2early for it IMO.Greeks prolly come either from KMK-Babyno or Catacomb.So,i don't see Yamnaya being related with Greeks and the Greek world in general.But i do not want to be absolute..we need samples to be sure about it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multi-cordoned_ware_culture
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catacomb_culture

Thanks. What do you use the Neolithic calculators for? Do you use them to model Metal Age people?

CyrylBojarski
12-11-2020, 03:14 PM
Using the updated K13 spreadsheet:

Distance to: Markos
3.30811124 Greek_Athens
3.57408730 Greek_Central
3.95018987 Greek_Ionia
4.25076464 Greek_Cyclades

Distance: 1.7113% / 1.71134144
Target: Markos | ADC: 0.25x RC
46.7 Greek_West
19.5 Greek_North_Aegean
16.2 IT_Salento
11.6 Ashkenazi
6.0 Moldova_Roma

Mum's:

Distance to: MarkosMother
3.56595008 Greek_West
3.60768624 Greek_Peloponnese
4.08279316 Greek_Eastern-Thrace
4.19273181 Albanian_Tosk

Distance: 1.5849% / 1.58488183
Target: MarkosMother | ADC: 0.5x RC
42.4 Albanian_Tosk
24.8 Turk_Central_Macedonia
21.4 Ashkenazi
11.4 Greek_Eastern-Thrace

Sorry for off topic, but how do you think what is more accurate K13 modern or G25 modern averages?

Greekscholar
12-11-2020, 03:28 PM
Sorry for off topic, but how do you think what is more accurate K13 modern or G25 modern averages?

I'm not sure if you are asking generally, or just Markos, but since I brought up K13 in this thread, I would say G25 is the superior tool. My interest in K13 here is the newer Greek Island coordinates from islands where I have ancestors/relatives.

Johnny ola
12-11-2020, 03:31 PM
Thanks. What do you use the Neolithic calculators for? Do you use them to model Metal Age people?

Not really. I dont think these components cotribute to US at all.It Is just for people who do Not know how to model With more recent refrences especially From BA/IA and medieval period. I am just using Neolithic refrences to check any exotic admixture....thats all.

Markos
12-11-2020, 04:29 PM
Where is your mother from?

Kallithea (Elis) & Magoula (Arkadia).

Markos
12-11-2020, 04:31 PM
Sorry for off topic, but how do you think what is more accurate K13 modern or G25 modern averages?


I'm not sure if you are asking generally, or just Markos, but since I brought up K13 in this thread, I would say G25 is the superior tool. My interest in K13 here is the newer Greek Island coordinates from islands where I have ancestors/relatives.

I haven't kept up much recently but I thought Davidski said his G25 modern population averages are inaccurate or something? I thought it was something like that. But that G25 is much better for ancient admixture.

Greekscholar
12-11-2020, 04:41 PM
I haven't kept up much recently but I thought Davidski said his G25 modern population averages are inaccurate or something? I thought it was something like that. But that G25 is much better for ancient admixture.

I dont know all the specifics, but the modern spreadsheet is still active and being updated. My understanding was that the issue was less about the accuracy of G25 itself, and more about people trolling because the modern samples were not matching their perceptions.

Markos
12-11-2020, 04:45 PM
I dont know all the specifics, but the modern spreadsheet is still active and being updated. My understanding was that the issue was less about the accuracy of G25 itself, and more about people trolling because the modern samples were not matching their perceptions.

That might be it! I did think he stopped updating it though (this was months ago, so things could have changed!)

Greekscholar
12-11-2020, 04:49 PM
That might be it! I did think he stopped updating it though (this was months ago, so things could have changed!)

There are lots of new modern Greek samples, go check them out.

lacreme
12-11-2020, 05:00 PM
Kallithea (Elis) & Magoula (Arkadia).

Hey man
Is it possible to send me your mom's coordinates on the various cals + g25 ? They would be quite useful as a proxy for my friend's Elis part. As a reminder his paternal grandmother is from Aspra Spitia, located right across Kallithea on the other side of Alfeios river.

Markos
12-11-2020, 05:05 PM
Hey man
Is it possible to send me your mom's coordinates on the various cals + g25 ? They would be quite useful as a proxy for my friend's Elis part. As a reminder his paternal grandmother is from Aspra Spitia, located right across Kallithea on the other side of Alfeios river.

Here are her coordinates:

Markos_Mother_scaled,0.1161,0.139128,0.011314,-0.021964,0.022466,-0.00502,-0.00094,0.003923,0.007976,0.012939,0.006658,-0.00015,-0.00223,0.010459,-0.010993,-0.012729,-0.010691,0.001014,0.011564,-0.006253,-0.001872,0.000618,0.007765,-0.005181,0.00455

Markos_Mother,0.0102,0.0137,0.003,-0.0068,0.0073,-0.0018,-0.0004,0.0017,0.0039,0.0071,0.0041,-0.0001,-0.0015,0.0076,-0.0081,-0.0096,-0.0082,0.0008,0.0092,-0.005,-0.0015,0.0005,0.0063,-0.0043,0.0038

--

Let me know if you want anything else.

lacreme
12-11-2020, 05:12 PM
Here are her coordinates:

Markos_Mother_scaled,0.1161,0.139128,0.011314,-0.021964,0.022466,-0.00502,-0.00094,0.003923,0.007976,0.012939,0.006658,-0.00015,-0.00223,0.010459,-0.010993,-0.012729,-0.010691,0.001014,0.011564,-0.006253,-0.001872,0.000618,0.007765,-0.005181,0.00455

Markos_Mother,0.0102,0.0137,0.003,-0.0068,0.0073,-0.0018,-0.0004,0.0017,0.0039,0.0071,0.0041,-0.0001,-0.0015,0.0076,-0.0081,-0.0096,-0.0082,0.0008,0.0092,-0.005,-0.0015,0.0005,0.0063,-0.0043,0.0038

--

Let me know if you want anything else.

Thank you !
Can you post her eurogenes k13,15 ,dodecad k7,12b and mdlp k23b coordinates too ?
also, I have one more question about (her) gedmatch but I will send a pm.

Johnny ola
12-11-2020, 05:54 PM
Here are her coordinates:

Markos_Mother_scaled,0.1161,0.139128,0.011314,-0.021964,0.022466,-0.00502,-0.00094,0.003923,0.007976,0.012939,0.006658,-0.00015,-0.00223,0.010459,-0.010993,-0.012729,-0.010691,0.001014,0.011564,-0.006253,-0.001872,0.000618,0.007765,-0.005181,0.00455

Markos_Mother,0.0102,0.0137,0.003,-0.0068,0.0073,-0.0018,-0.0004,0.0017,0.0039,0.0071,0.0041,-0.0001,-0.0015,0.0076,-0.0081,-0.0096,-0.0082,0.0008,0.0092,-0.005,-0.0015,0.0005,0.0063,-0.0043,0.0038

--

Let me know if you want anything else.

Υour mother has something south asian right?


Target: Markos_Mother_scaled
Distance: 0.8444% / 0.00844398
20.6 ITA_Ardea_Latini_IA_o
12.6 VK2020_RUS_Kurevanikha_VA
12.4 HRV_IA
9.6 HUN_ALPc_Tiszadob_MN
8.6 TUR_Tell_Kurdu_EC
7.2 VK2020_POL_Cedynia_MA
6.8 VK2020_POL_Cedynia_VA
5.8 Levant_Yehud_IBA
4.6 TKM_Parkhai_MBA
2.8 Baltic_LTU_Late_Antiquity_low_res
2.2 ARM_Areni_C
2.0 HUN_MA_Szolad_o1
1.6 Corded_Ware_CHE_o
1.4 PAK_Saidu_Sharif_H_o
1.4 TUR_Kumtepe_N_low_res
0.4 LAO_LN_BA

pegasus
12-11-2020, 06:15 PM
Υour mother has something south asian right?


Target: Markos_Mother_scaled
Distance: 0.8444% / 0.00844398
20.6 ITA_Ardea_Latini_IA_o
12.6 VK2020_RUS_Kurevanikha_VA
12.4 HRV_IA
9.6 HUN_ALPc_Tiszadob_MN
8.6 TUR_Tell_Kurdu_EC
7.2 VK2020_POL_Cedynia_MA
6.8 VK2020_POL_Cedynia_VA
5.8 Levant_Yehud_IBA
4.6 TKM_Parkhai_MBA
2.8 Baltic_LTU_Late_Antiquity_low_res
2.2 ARM_Areni_C
2.0 HUN_MA_Szolad_o1
1.6 Corded_Ware_CHE_o
1.4 PAK_Saidu_Sharif_H_o
1.4 TUR_Kumtepe_N_low_res
0.4 LAO_LN_BA

The combination of Steppe MLBA or something related + Parkhai MBA means its some Indo Iranian ancestry, BMAC pops do have minor AASI, so it is just likely ancient Central Asian ancestry.

Distance: 0.5632167660207792%

ITA_Ardea_Latini_IA_o: 15.5%
HUN_MA_Szolad_o1: 14.9%
VK2020_POL_Cedynia_VA: 10.5%
Corded_Ware_CHE_o: 9.4%
TKM_Parkhai_MBA: 7.2%
TUR_Tell_Kurdu_EC: 6.8%
RUS_Ingria_IA: 6.4%
VK2020_POL_Sandomierz_VA: 6.3%
DEU_MA_o: 5.2%
Levant_Yehud_IBA: 4.8%
VK2020_POL_Cedynia_MA: 4.3%
TUR_Kumtepe_N_low_res: 3.8%
KEN_LuKENHill_3500BP: 1.7%
VNM_BA: 1.3%
RUS_Magadan_BA: 1.0%
HUN_ALPc_Tiszadob_MN: 0.8%
ITA_Sardinia_C_o: 0.2%

TonyC
12-11-2020, 06:16 PM
K13 with expanded references for my son; his mom is half Arcadian (Nestani), half Messinian (Psari);
Distance to: patrickc
2.89112435 Greek
3.30829261 Greek_Northeast
3.40030881 Greek_West_Macedonia
3.48752061 Greek_Peloponnese
3.53821989 Greek_Central_Macedonia
3.76834181 Greek_West
4.10571553 Torbeshi_North-Macedonia-East
4.18339575 Greek_Eastern-Macedonia
4.31440610 Greek_Central
4.78445399 Greek_Eastern-Thrace
4.78595863 Greek_Athens
4.80652941 Greek_Thessaly
5.10073524 Vlach_Central-Macedonia
5.55132417 Albanian_Tosk
5.68834774 Albanian
5.83685703 Greek_Macedonia_Thrace
6.02492324 Greek_Western-Thrace
6.08185827 Albanian_Gheg
6.21720194 Torbesh_average
6.91843913 Turk_Central_Macedonia
6.99771391 Turk_Crete
7.15114676 Vlach(Aromanian)_average
7.31121741 MacedonianSouthWest
7.57573099 Torbeshi_North-Macedonia-Central
7.59594629 Greek_Ionia

Markos
12-11-2020, 06:19 PM
Υour mother has something south asian right?


No, my dad does because his great-grandmother (I think) was Roma. My mom has higher EA than usual because of her dad's chorio:

Το χωριό κατοικείτο αποκλειστικά από Τούρκους «μουρτάτες». Αυτοί ήταν αποτέλεσμα μικτών γάμων Τούρκων με χριστιανές.Η διάσπαση αυτή των Ελλήνων ήταν σκόπιμη από τη μεριά των Τούρκων. Ήταν αποτέλεσμα της συμμετοχής των Ελλήνων σε διάφορα προεπαναστατικά κινήματα, για την απόκτηση της ελευθερίας.

Johnny ola
12-11-2020, 06:20 PM
The combination of Steppe MLBA or something related + Parkhai MBA means its some Indo Iranian ancestry, BMAC pops do have minor AASI, so it is just likely ancient Central Asian ancestry.

Distance: 0.5632167660207792%

ITA_Ardea_Latini_IA_o: 15.5%
HUN_MA_Szolad_o1: 14.9%
VK2020_POL_Cedynia_VA: 10.5%
Corded_Ware_CHE_o: 9.4%
TKM_Parkhai_MBA: 7.2%
TUR_Tell_Kurdu_EC: 6.8%
RUS_Ingria_IA: 6.4%
VK2020_POL_Sandomierz_VA: 6.3%
DEU_MA_o: 5.2%
Levant_Yehud_IBA: 4.8%
VK2020_POL_Cedynia_MA: 4.3%
TUR_Kumtepe_N_low_res: 3.8%
KEN_LuKENHill_3500BP: 1.7%
VNM_BA: 1.3%
RUS_Magadan_BA: 1.0%
HUN_ALPc_Tiszadob_MN: 0.8%
ITA_Sardinia_C_o: 0.2%



Turkish related admixture?I am not an expert in south asia genetics.If you can suggest me a better refrence to use,just say it.

Target: Markos_Mother_scaled
Distance: 1.5564% / 0.01556382
43.0 Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2
41.8 HUN_Avar_Szolad
12.8 Levant_Ashkelon_IA2
2.4 PAK_Loebanr_IA

pegasus
12-11-2020, 06:55 PM
Turkish related admixture?I am not an expert in south asia genetics.If you can suggest me a better refrence to use,just say it.

Target: Markos_Mother_scaled
Distance: 1.5564% / 0.01556382
43.0 Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2
41.8 HUN_Avar_Szolad
12.8 Levant_Ashkelon_IA2
2.4 PAK_Loebanr_IA

I don't think she has East Asian or Mongolian related ancestry. Also Parkhai coming out as a source is from the BA. Those Megiddo outliers worked with Parkhai MBA. Logically some Indo Iranian substratum which was absorbed via Eastern Anatolia long ago

xripkan
12-11-2020, 07:11 PM
My updated K13
Distance to: christos
1.36062486 Greek_Peloponnese
2.41704365 Greek
2.63653181 Greek_West
2.79150497 Greek_Eastern-Thrace
2.92184873 Greek_Central
3.32437964 Greek_Athens
3.47593153 Greek_Central_Macedonia
3.70654826 Greek_Northeast
3.90422848 Greek_West_Macedonia
4.36701557 Greek_Thessaly
4.73198690 Albanian_Tosk
4.97479648 Torbeshi_North-Macedonia-East
5.09191516 Vlach_Central-Macedonia
5.69274099 Greek_Eastern-Macedonia
5.85627868 Albanian
5.89185030 Turk_Central_Macedonia
5.98969114 Greek_Macedonia_Thrace
6.00080828 Turk_Crete
6.02750363 Greek_Western-Thrace
6.24242741 Greek_Ionia
6.37251128 Torbesh_average
6.61981118 Greek_Cyclades
6.65725920 Albanian_Gheg
7.21697998 IT_Puglia
7.28063184 Greek_Andros_Island

Distance: 0.8982% / 0.89822403
Target: christos | ADC: 1x RC
72.1 Greek_Peloponnese
27.9 Greek_Eastern-Thrace

Sorcelow
12-12-2020, 05:14 AM
Does anyone have an idea as to where Levant_LBN_MA_o4 came from? It clearly wasn't native to the Levant, even though its remains were found in Lebanon. The high steppe, moderate CHG/IranN, and low natufian, lead me to believe that this might be one of those ancient Greek samples with higher steppe that David has been alluding to.

Distance: 1.5166% / 0.01516550
Target: Levant_LBN_MA_o4
53.5 Anatolia_Barcin_N
33.1 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
12.3 CHG/IranN
1.0 Levant_Natufian
0.1 Baltic_HG

I achieve good fits for myself when I incorporate it into my models:

Distance: 2.2844% / 0.02284434
Target: Sorcelow_scaled
46.9 ITA_Collegno_MA_o1
28.6 HUN_Avar_Szolad
24.5 Levant_LBN_MA_o4

Michalis Moriopoulos
12-12-2020, 06:39 AM
Cypriots in light of new samples. Old in aqua and new in orange:

https://i.imgur.com/9BAgEar.png

This pushes the average a little closer to the Aegean islanders.

Markos
12-12-2020, 04:22 PM
There are lots of new modern Greek samples, go check them out.

Is this the most updated list?

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1wZr-UOve0KUKo_Qbgeo27m-CQncZWb8y/view

lacreme
12-12-2020, 05:16 PM
Does anyone have an idea as to where Levant_LBN_MA_o4 came from? It clearly wasn't native to the Levant, even though its remains were found in Lebanon. The high steppe, moderate CHG/IranN, and low natufian, lead me to believe that this might be one of those ancient Greek samples with higher steppe that David has been alluding to.

Distance: 1.5166% / 0.01516550
Target: Levant_LBN_MA_o4
53.5 Anatolia_Barcin_N
33.1 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
12.3 CHG/IranN
1.0 Levant_Natufian
0.1 Baltic_HG

I achieve good fits for myself when I incorporate it into my models:

Distance: 2.2844% / 0.02284434
Target: Sorcelow_scaled
46.9 ITA_Collegno_MA_o1
28.6 HUN_Avar_Szolad
24.5 Levant_LBN_MA_o4

this one ?
Levant_LBN_MA_o4:SI-53,0.1161,0.14319,-0.003394,-0.025194,0.00954,-0.006136,0.003525,-0.002308,-0.009204,0.007289,-0.000812,0.005095,-0.010704,-0.008257,-0.008279,0.000663,0.005215,-0.000507,0.003771,-0.005253,0.004866,-0.001731,0.003944,0.007832,-0.003592

on eurogenes k13 ancient is named as "Crusader_SI53_Kingdom_of_Jerusalem"
his kit is still on gedmatch ZX8440629

Sorcelow
12-12-2020, 05:26 PM
this one ?
Levant_LBN_MA_o4:SI-53,0.1161,0.14319,-0.003394,-0.025194,0.00954,-0.006136,0.003525,-0.002308,-0.009204,0.007289,-0.000812,0.005095,-0.010704,-0.008257,-0.008279,0.000663,0.005215,-0.000507,0.003771,-0.005253,0.004866,-0.001731,0.003944,0.007832,-0.003592

on eurogenes k13 ancient is named as "Crusader_SI53_Kingdom_of_Jerusalem"
his kit is still on gedmatch ZX8440629

Yes, thats it. After further analysis, looks like he's half Anatolian, half northwest Euro, which gave the initial impression that he could be from the Balkans.

dosas
12-12-2020, 07:02 PM
With the inclusion of Stamatoyanopoulos' samples, my father finally gets a good fit (relatively speaking) with Macedonia and not East Rumelia, which I initially assumed he would, since he's from the Haskovo province which was part of the Principality at the time.

It would seem that the "Eastern" East Rumelians might have been different to the "Western" ones from Plovdid, maybe the latter were wandering/resettled Macedonians (broadly speaking) compared to the cosmopolitan Greek community of Plovdiv.




Target: dosasdad_scaled
Distance: 2.8096% / 0.02809553
86.4 Greek_Macedonia
9.0 Lithuanian_VZ
2.6 Sardinian
1.8 Koinanbe
0.2 Esan_Nigeria

lacreme
12-12-2020, 07:20 PM
With the inclusion of Stamatoyanopoulos' samples
...


what ??? were ?

dosas
12-12-2020, 07:33 PM
what ??? were ?

I mean the stuff 23abc got with his mad skillz, it's the latest Greek additions to the G25 database (Laconia, Greek_Macedonia, East Rumelia, and the others).

It's not the whole thing, though.

Agamemnon
12-13-2020, 04:29 AM
Added the new Greek samples, as well as the new Cypriots (and Lebanese):

https://i.imgur.com/PaDoDLi.png

XXD
12-13-2020, 01:32 PM
Greek_North_Aegean:Ikaria,13.33,7.19,20.67,15.84,3 3.86,5.72,3.22,0,0,0.08,0.1,0,0
Greek_North_Aegean:Ikaria,13.89,10.75,21.39,13.99, 33.93,4.35,0,0.47,0.82,0.16,0,0,0.24
Greek_North_Aegean:Ikaria,12.12,11.27,22.78,14.1,3 2.13,6.12,0,0.09,0.38,0,0.44,0.48,0.11
Greek_North_Aegean:Ikaria,15.06,4.65,24.39,16.08,3 3.83,5,0,0.72,0.07,0,0.2,0,0
Greek_North_Aegean:Ikaria,11.06,8.97,23.3,17.2,33. 59,5.45,0,0,0,0,0.42,0,0
Greek_North_Aegean:Ikaria,17.49,12.83,18.89,15.52, 27.38,6.38,0.8,0,0.17,0.3,0,0.23,0
Greek_North_Aegean:Ikaria,13.33,7.19,20.67,15.84,3 3.86,5.72,3.22,0,0,0.08,0.1,0,0
Greek_North_Aegean:Samos,20.14,9.36,19.56,13,32.63 ,2.43,1.48,0.37,0,0.35,0.31,0.33,0
Greek_North_Aegean:Samos,17.84,11.16,21.94,14.54,2 8.08,4.41,0.65,0.19,0,0,0.09,1.08,0
Greek_North_Aegean:Chios,9.6,6.31,21.16,20.56,35.3 1,6.06,0,0.99,0,0,0,0,0
Greek_North_Aegean:Chios,14.81,7.43,20.17,20.11,32 .59,3.47,0,0.76,0,0.08,0,0.57,0
Greek_North_Aegean:Chios,12.39,6.3,21.03,19.95,31. 23,7.15,0,0,1.37,0,0.59,0,0
Greek_North_Aegean:Chios,16.64,4.26,21.36,20.91,30 .58,5.64,0,0,0.36,0,0.25,0,0
Greek_North_Aegean:Chios,14.9,4.86,20.99,18.75,33. 83,5.74,0,0,0.17,0,0,0.76,0
Greek_North_Aegean:North Aegean,15.95,9.23,19.08,17.79,33.32,4.42,0,0,0.4,0 ,0,0,0
average:Greek_North_Aegean,14.57,8.12,21.16,16.95, 32.41,5.2,0.62,0.24,0.25,0.07,0.17,0.23,0.02

What are these coordinates exactly? Can't seem to model them using Vahaduo.

Markos
12-13-2020, 02:00 PM
What are these coordinates exactly? Can't seem to model them using Vahaduo.

Eurogenes K13. GEDMatch

trdbr1234
12-13-2020, 02:46 PM
Added the new Greek samples, as well as the new Cypriots (and Lebanese):

https://i.imgur.com/PaDoDLi.png

That almost looks like a 3D rendering. Are you plotting in 3D?

XXD
12-13-2020, 02:56 PM
Eurogenes K13. GEDMatch

Thanks so much! So we don't have any G25 for those?

TonyC
12-13-2020, 03:11 PM
Added the new Greek samples, as well as the new Cypriots (and Lebanese):

https://i.imgur.com/PaDoDLi.png

I like that you included the East Med sphere. It looks like it would include Greek Laconia and other Southern shifted Peloponnesian samples.

Greekscholar
12-13-2020, 03:11 PM
Thanks so much! So we don't have any G25 for those?

No, and on review, I am not sure how great K13 works when trying to duplicate G25 tasks in Vahaduo. Just a quick example, K13 is still convinced my father is Jewish by distance measures, and my family gets very different distance measures to various samples. Compare to G25 (posted earlier in this thread) which clearly shows that those 4 samples cluster close together, be it by distance to other samples, models, PCAs, etc.

dosas
12-13-2020, 03:29 PM
No, and on review, I am not sure how great K13 works when trying to duplicate G25 tasks in Vahaduo. Just a quick example, K13 is still convinced my father is Jewish by distance measures, and my family gets very different distance measures to various samples. Compare to G25 (posted earlier in this thread) which clearly shows that those 4 samples cluster close together, be it by distance to other samples, models, PCAs, etc.

Ι agree and those K13 'enthusiast databases' with the expanded lists are maintained by dubious sources, they can't possibly be compared to the G25 list.

Markos
12-13-2020, 04:18 PM
No, and on review, I am not sure how great K13 works when trying to duplicate G25 tasks in Vahaduo. Just a quick example, K13 is still convinced my father is Jewish by distance measures, and my family gets very different distance measures to various samples. Compare to G25 (posted earlier in this thread) which clearly shows that those 4 samples cluster close together, be it by distance to other samples, models, PCAs, etc.

It does a decent job for me, tbh.

Distance: 1.6895% / 1.68948546
Target: Markos | ADC: 0.25x RC

65.5 Greek_West
29.0 Greek_Symi_Island
5.5 Moldova_Roma

Greekscholar
12-13-2020, 04:50 PM
It does a decent job for me, tbh.

Distance: 1.6895% / 1.68948546
Target: Markos | ADC: 0.25x RC

65.5 Greek_West
29.0 Greek_Symi_Island
5.5 Moldova_Roma

K13 does work for some, I was happy to see myself near the NE_Aegean_Island average, but I think the tool has clearly been superceded by G25. Here is a more drawn out example. Keep in mind that close family members don't necessarily plot next to each other. My case is different in that all three generations represented by my family samples are drawn from the same endogamous cluster. G25 clearly shows this. With the K13 calculator, we might as well be strangers :)

G25



Distance to: GS_family(Fourni/Ikaria/Samos):YiaYia(Fourni/Ikaria)
0.01568598 GS_family(Fourni/Ikaria/Samos):Thea(Fourni/Ikaria/Samos)
0.01679902 GS_family(Fourni/Ikaria/Samos):GS_Dad(Fourni/Ikaria/Samos)
0.02662303 GS_family(Fourni/Ikaria/Samos):GS(Fourni/Ikaria/Samos)

Distance difference: ( AC - BC ) ↑
A: GS_family(Fourni/Ikaria/Samos):GS(Fourni/Ikaria/Samos)
B: GS_family(Fourni/Ikaria/Samos):GS_Dad(Fourni/Ikaria/Samos)
C: ↴
-0.00563520 Greek_Cappadocia
-0.00551102 Sicilian_East
-0.00537298 Georgian_Imer
-0.00533218 Greek_Trabzon
-0.00504087 Turkish_Trabzon
-0.00484133 Georgian_Laz
-0.00482752 Armenian_Hemsheni
-0.00469602 Italian_Calabria
-0.00469431 Italian_Apulia
-0.00464409 Sephardic_Jew
-0.00459174 Armenian
-0.00445859 Greek_Crete
-0.00443055 Karaite_Egypt
-0.00440016 Italian_Campania
-0.00434161 Syrian_Jew
-0.00431399 Greek_Dodecanese
-0.00419755 Abkhasian
-0.00414473 Romaniote_Jew
-0.00403910 Italian_Jew
-0.00385640 Greek_Central_Anatolia
-0.00373528 Samaritan
-0.00372281 Iraqi_Jew
-0.00370145 Italian_Molise
-0.00363642 Cypriot
-0.00352005 Italian_Basilicata


Distance difference: ( AC - BC ) ↓
A: GS_family(Fourni/Ikaria/Samos):GS(Fourni/Ikaria/Samos)
B: GS_family(Fourni/Ikaria/Samos):GS_Dad(Fourni/Ikaria/Samos)
C: ↴
0.00539734 Todzin
0.00527781 Yakut
0.00526429 Sakha
0.00517603 Yukagir_Forest
0.00513468 Buryat
0.00512590 Turkish_Rumeli
0.00509822 Tuvinian
0.00509654 Dolgan
0.00508485 Evenk
0.00508171 Khakass_Kachins
0.00504967 Tatar_Crimean_steppe
0.00504377 Mogush
0.00503387 Even
0.00495805 Shor
0.00494531 Shor_Khakassia
0.00494013 Altaian
0.00493212 Nganassan
0.00491730 Shor_Mountain
0.00488594 Khamnegan
0.00486730 Yukagir_Tundra
0.00485589 Khakass
0.00481321 Ket
0.00476691 Cossack_Kuban
0.00476511 Negidal
0.00475851 Mongolian


K13


Distance to: YiaYia
3.53905355 Thea
5.13876444 GS
6.06672070 GSDad


Distance to: GS
2.42206523 Greek_North_Aegean
3.19785866 IT_Calabria_citra
3.54009887 IT_Calabria
3.59874978 Greek_Crete
3.61846653 IT_Calabria_ultra
3.76636429 IT_Campania
4.04484858 Greek_Ionia
4.12840163 Malta
4.77057649 Sicily
4.83824348 Greek_Cyclades
4.85945470 IT_Apulia
5.03306070 IT_Sannio
5.11914055 IT_Salento
5.19931726 IT_Puglia
5.52545926 IT_Molise
5.64394366 Greek_Dodecanese
6.31956486 Greek_Andros_Island
6.37812668 IT_Abruzzo
6.38093253 IT_Basilicata
6.38731556 IT_Lucania
6.44550231 Ashkenazi
6.48609281 Moldova_Jewish
6.53290135 Greek_Chios
7.02532562 Greek_Athens
7.34491661 Greek_Symi_Island


Distance to: GSDad
3.08695643 Ashkenazi
3.62689950 Moldova_Jewish
6.70085815 IT_Calabria_citra
6.78549924 Greek_North_Aegean
6.82277803 Malta
6.82504945 IT_Calabria_ultra
6.88009448 IT_Calabria
6.93214253 Greek_Crete
7.45231508 Greek_Ionia
7.73575465 IT_Campania
8.05011801 Sicily
8.07561143 IT_Sannio
8.42083131 Greek_Cyclades
8.44319252 IT_Apulia
8.56940488 IT_Molise
8.58678636 IT_Puglia
8.68268968 Italian_Jewish
8.78223206 IT_Salento
8.80960272 Greek_Dodecanese
8.97245786 Algerian_Jewish
9.10448790 IT_Abruzzo
9.26106365 Greek_Andros_Island
9.32960878 Greek_Athens
9.55466378 IT_Lucania
9.56070081 Sephardic_Jewish

Markos
12-13-2020, 05:01 PM
K13 does work for some, I was happy to see myself near the NE_Aegean_Island average, but I think the tool has clearly been superceded by G25. Here is a more drawn out example. Keep in mind that close family members don't necessarily plot next to each other. My case is different in that all three generations represented by my family samples are drawn from the same endogamous cluster. G25 clearly shows this. With the K13 calculator, we might as well be strangers :)

G25



Distance to: GS_family(Fourni/Ikaria/Samos):YiaYia(Fourni/Ikaria)
0.01568598 GS_family(Fourni/Ikaria/Samos):Thea(Fourni/Ikaria/Samos)
0.01679902 GS_family(Fourni/Ikaria/Samos):GS_Dad(Fourni/Ikaria/Samos)
0.02662303 GS_family(Fourni/Ikaria/Samos):GS(Fourni/Ikaria/Samos)

Distance difference: ( AC - BC ) ↑
A: GS_family(Fourni/Ikaria/Samos):GS(Fourni/Ikaria/Samos)
B: GS_family(Fourni/Ikaria/Samos):GS_Dad(Fourni/Ikaria/Samos)
C: ↴
-0.00563520 Greek_Cappadocia
-0.00551102 Sicilian_East
-0.00537298 Georgian_Imer
-0.00533218 Greek_Trabzon
-0.00504087 Turkish_Trabzon
-0.00484133 Georgian_Laz
-0.00482752 Armenian_Hemsheni
-0.00469602 Italian_Calabria
-0.00469431 Italian_Apulia
-0.00464409 Sephardic_Jew
-0.00459174 Armenian
-0.00445859 Greek_Crete
-0.00443055 Karaite_Egypt
-0.00440016 Italian_Campania
-0.00434161 Syrian_Jew
-0.00431399 Greek_Dodecanese
-0.00419755 Abkhasian
-0.00414473 Romaniote_Jew
-0.00403910 Italian_Jew
-0.00385640 Greek_Central_Anatolia
-0.00373528 Samaritan
-0.00372281 Iraqi_Jew
-0.00370145 Italian_Molise
-0.00363642 Cypriot
-0.00352005 Italian_Basilicata


Distance difference: ( AC - BC ) ↓
A: GS_family(Fourni/Ikaria/Samos):GS(Fourni/Ikaria/Samos)
B: GS_family(Fourni/Ikaria/Samos):GS_Dad(Fourni/Ikaria/Samos)
C: ↴
0.00539734 Todzin
0.00527781 Yakut
0.00526429 Sakha
0.00517603 Yukagir_Forest
0.00513468 Buryat
0.00512590 Turkish_Rumeli
0.00509822 Tuvinian
0.00509654 Dolgan
0.00508485 Evenk
0.00508171 Khakass_Kachins
0.00504967 Tatar_Crimean_steppe
0.00504377 Mogush
0.00503387 Even
0.00495805 Shor
0.00494531 Shor_Khakassia
0.00494013 Altaian
0.00493212 Nganassan
0.00491730 Shor_Mountain
0.00488594 Khamnegan
0.00486730 Yukagir_Tundra
0.00485589 Khakass
0.00481321 Ket
0.00476691 Cossack_Kuban
0.00476511 Negidal
0.00475851 Mongolian


K13


Distance to: YiaYia
3.53905355 Thea
5.13876444 GS
6.06672070 GSDad


Distance to: GS
2.42206523 Greek_North_Aegean
3.19785866 IT_Calabria_citra
3.54009887 IT_Calabria
3.59874978 Greek_Crete
3.61846653 IT_Calabria_ultra
3.76636429 IT_Campania
4.04484858 Greek_Ionia
4.12840163 Malta
4.77057649 Sicily
4.83824348 Greek_Cyclades
4.85945470 IT_Apulia
5.03306070 IT_Sannio
5.11914055 IT_Salento
5.19931726 IT_Puglia
5.52545926 IT_Molise
5.64394366 Greek_Dodecanese
6.31956486 Greek_Andros_Island
6.37812668 IT_Abruzzo
6.38093253 IT_Basilicata
6.38731556 IT_Lucania
6.44550231 Ashkenazi
6.48609281 Moldova_Jewish
6.53290135 Greek_Chios
7.02532562 Greek_Athens
7.34491661 Greek_Symi_Island


Distance to: GSDad
3.08695643 Ashkenazi
3.62689950 Moldova_Jewish
6.70085815 IT_Calabria_citra
6.78549924 Greek_North_Aegean
6.82277803 Malta
6.82504945 IT_Calabria_ultra
6.88009448 IT_Calabria
6.93214253 Greek_Crete
7.45231508 Greek_Ionia
7.73575465 IT_Campania
8.05011801 Sicily
8.07561143 IT_Sannio
8.42083131 Greek_Cyclades
8.44319252 IT_Apulia
8.56940488 IT_Molise
8.58678636 IT_Puglia
8.68268968 Italian_Jewish
8.78223206 IT_Salento
8.80960272 Greek_Dodecanese
8.97245786 Algerian_Jewish
9.10448790 IT_Abruzzo
9.26106365 Greek_Andros_Island
9.32960878 Greek_Athens
9.55466378 IT_Lucania
9.56070081 Sephardic_Jewish


I'm so 'old school' I actually don't even know what I'm looking at in your G25 example :lol:

Greekscholar
12-13-2020, 05:12 PM
I'm so 'old school' I actually don't even know what I'm looking at in your G25 example :lol:

More or less, you are looking at 0.00x diference in distance between my dad and myself when both compared to the same G25 academic sample average. Here is a different way of seeing it.




Distance to: GS_family(Fourni/Ikaria/Samos):GS(Fourni/Ikaria/Samos)
0.02277505 Greek_Crete
0.02360760 Italian_Basilicata
0.02387360 Greek_Smyrna
0.02491950 Italian_Apulia
0.02492691 Italian_Calabria
0.02497603 Italian_Campania
0.02508030 Greek_Laconia
0.02863040 Italian_Abruzzo
0.02914403 Italian_Molise
0.02999596 Sicilian_East
0.03072366 Greek_Peloponnese
0.03141949 Greek_Kos
0.03183364 Ashkenazi_Poland
0.03193669 Ashkenazi_Germany
0.03255736 Ashkenazi_Belarussia
0.03344806 Ashkenazi_Lithuania
0.03363502 Ashkenazi_Russia
0.03403791 Ashkenazi_Ukraine
0.03441249 Greek_Dodecanese
0.03503279 Italian_Lazio
0.03558977 Maltese
0.03641634 Sicilian_West
0.03701575 Italian_Jew
0.03829590 Italian_Marche
0.03992317 Italian_Umbria


Distance to: GS_family(Fourni/Ikaria/Samos):GS_Dad(Fourni/Ikaria/Samos)
0.02230167 Greek_Laconia
0.02291602 Greek_Smyrna
0.02712765 Italian_Basilicata
0.02723364 Greek_Crete
0.02882902 Greek_Peloponnese
0.02937618 Italian_Campania
0.02961381 Italian_Apulia
0.02962293 Italian_Calabria
0.03180195 Italian_Abruzzo
0.03242877 Ashkenazi_Belarussia
0.03284548 Italian_Molise
0.03324179 Ashkenazi_Lithuania
0.03384783 Ashkenazi_Germany
0.03418654 Greek_Kos
0.03450204 Ashkenazi_Russia
0.03479337 Ashkenazi_Poland
0.03550698 Sicilian_East
0.03617096 Ashkenazi_Ukraine
0.03709499 Maltese
0.03714831 Italian_Lazio
0.03872648 Greek_Dodecanese
0.03954282 Sicilian_West
0.04032607 Italian_Umbria
0.04063710 Italian_Marche
0.04105485 Italian_Jew



For a comparison to the K13 distance chart I measured, you have to move the decimal one place to the left. Here is our differences in distance on K13. There is much more variation in our distances, and a bigger difference between us. I'll point out it isn't great for the calculator that the reference sample we differ the most on is the actual place of his ancestry. We both tested with Ancestry too.



Distance difference: ( AC - BC ) ↑
A: GS
B: GSDad
C: ↴
-4.36343401 Greek_North_Aegean
-3.98631436 Ossetian
-3.96939036 IT_Campania
-3.77206919 Georgian_imereti
-3.76144308 Georgian
-3.73881338 Balkar
-3.70615767 Ingush
-3.67223872 Abhkasian
-3.66867369 North_Ossetian
-3.66309151 IT_Salento
-3.63314016 Greek_Chios
-3.62544297 Kabardin
-3.62021438 Adygei
-3.58373782 IT_Apulia
-3.58258783 Greek_Cyclades
-3.55733735 Dargin
-3.54752379 Avar
-3.53365067 Chechen
-3.50299950 IT_Calabria_citra
-3.49001495 Lak
-3.41556397 Tabassaran
-3.40877867 Kumyk
-3.40746650 Greek_Ionia
-3.38746910 IT_Puglia
-3.36080385 Turk_Meskhetian


Distance difference: ( AC - BC ) ↓
A: GS
B: GSDad
C: ↴
3.35854588 Ashkenazi
2.85919331 Moldova_Jewish
2.47159517 Yemenite_Jewish
1.56398029 Egyptian
1.49278703 Saudi
1.37073556 Pomak_Xanthi
1.24634690 Tunisian
1.13993217 Italian_Jewish
1.11223351 Algerian_Jewish
0.95078047 Tunisian_Jewish
0.91860489 Libyan_Jewish
0.90718231 Palestinian
0.81242719 Moroccan_Jew
0.76535454 Lebanese_Druze
0.74586492 Bedouin
0.73911569 Algerian
0.70569009 Samaritan
0.64371367 Mozabite_Berber
0.53695900 Lebanese_Christian
0.50381185 Ethiopian_Tigray
0.49090661 Moroccan
0.48949096 Pomak_Plovdiv
0.44100238 Ethiopian_Amhara
0.36982242 Latvian
0.35771233 Jordanian

Markos
12-13-2020, 05:36 PM
More or less, you are looking at 0.00x diference in distance between my dad and myself when both compared to the same G25 academic sample average. Here is a different way of seeing it.




Distance to: GS_family(Fourni/Ikaria/Samos):GS(Fourni/Ikaria/Samos)
0.02277505 Greek_Crete
0.02360760 Italian_Basilicata
0.02387360 Greek_Smyrna
0.02491950 Italian_Apulia
0.02492691 Italian_Calabria
0.02497603 Italian_Campania
0.02508030 Greek_Laconia
0.02863040 Italian_Abruzzo
0.02914403 Italian_Molise
0.02999596 Sicilian_East
0.03072366 Greek_Peloponnese
0.03141949 Greek_Kos
0.03183364 Ashkenazi_Poland
0.03193669 Ashkenazi_Germany
0.03255736 Ashkenazi_Belarussia
0.03344806 Ashkenazi_Lithuania
0.03363502 Ashkenazi_Russia
0.03403791 Ashkenazi_Ukraine
0.03441249 Greek_Dodecanese
0.03503279 Italian_Lazio
0.03558977 Maltese
0.03641634 Sicilian_West
0.03701575 Italian_Jew
0.03829590 Italian_Marche
0.03992317 Italian_Umbria


Distance to: GS_family(Fourni/Ikaria/Samos):GS_Dad(Fourni/Ikaria/Samos)
0.02230167 Greek_Laconia
0.02291602 Greek_Smyrna
0.02712765 Italian_Basilicata
0.02723364 Greek_Crete
0.02882902 Greek_Peloponnese
0.02937618 Italian_Campania
0.02961381 Italian_Apulia
0.02962293 Italian_Calabria
0.03180195 Italian_Abruzzo
0.03242877 Ashkenazi_Belarussia
0.03284548 Italian_Molise
0.03324179 Ashkenazi_Lithuania
0.03384783 Ashkenazi_Germany
0.03418654 Greek_Kos
0.03450204 Ashkenazi_Russia
0.03479337 Ashkenazi_Poland
0.03550698 Sicilian_East
0.03617096 Ashkenazi_Ukraine
0.03709499 Maltese
0.03714831 Italian_Lazio
0.03872648 Greek_Dodecanese
0.03954282 Sicilian_West
0.04032607 Italian_Umbria
0.04063710 Italian_Marche
0.04105485 Italian_Jew



For a comparison to the K13 distance chart I measured, you have to move the decimal one place to the left. Here is our differences in distance on K13. There is much more variation in our distances, and a bigger difference between us. I'll point out it isn't great for the calculator that the reference sample we differ the most on is the actual place of his ancestry. We both tested with Ancestry too.



Distance difference: ( AC - BC ) ↑
A: GS
B: GSDad
C: ↴
-4.36343401 Greek_North_Aegean
-3.98631436 Ossetian
-3.96939036 IT_Campania
-3.77206919 Georgian_imereti
-3.76144308 Georgian
-3.73881338 Balkar
-3.70615767 Ingush
-3.67223872 Abhkasian
-3.66867369 North_Ossetian
-3.66309151 IT_Salento
-3.63314016 Greek_Chios
-3.62544297 Kabardin
-3.62021438 Adygei
-3.58373782 IT_Apulia
-3.58258783 Greek_Cyclades
-3.55733735 Dargin
-3.54752379 Avar
-3.53365067 Chechen
-3.50299950 IT_Calabria_citra
-3.49001495 Lak
-3.41556397 Tabassaran
-3.40877867 Kumyk
-3.40746650 Greek_Ionia
-3.38746910 IT_Puglia
-3.36080385 Turk_Meskhetian


Distance difference: ( AC - BC ) ↓
A: GS
B: GSDad
C: ↴
3.35854588 Ashkenazi
2.85919331 Moldova_Jewish
2.47159517 Yemenite_Jewish
1.56398029 Egyptian
1.49278703 Saudi
1.37073556 Pomak_Xanthi
1.24634690 Tunisian
1.13993217 Italian_Jewish
1.11223351 Algerian_Jewish
0.95078047 Tunisian_Jewish
0.91860489 Libyan_Jewish
0.90718231 Palestinian
0.81242719 Moroccan_Jew
0.76535454 Lebanese_Druze
0.74586492 Bedouin
0.73911569 Algerian
0.70569009 Samaritan
0.64371367 Mozabite_Berber
0.53695900 Lebanese_Christian
0.50381185 Ethiopian_Tigray
0.49090661 Moroccan
0.48949096 Pomak_Plovdiv
0.44100238 Ethiopian_Amhara
0.36982242 Latvian
0.35771233 Jordanian


Yeah, sorry. I don't see what you're trying to explain, haha. No worries though I will look round and I'm sure it'll slowly start to make sense to me eventually.

xripkan
12-13-2020, 09:13 PM
Yeah, sorry. I don't see what you're trying to explain, haha. No worries though I will look round and I'm sure it'll slowly start to make sense to me eventually.

Hey, Markos! I see you mention known Romani ancestry. So have you confirmed you have such an ancestry?

Markos
12-13-2020, 11:04 PM
Hey, Markos! I see you mention known Romani ancestry. So have you confirmed you have such an ancestry?

Hello! Yes from my dad's side. All the math points to it being my great-great-grandmother. Some of my closest matches are Romani on all testing sites. When comparing my results to theirs, plus our shared DNA, I was able to easily figure out the distance.

Unfortunately, every single Roma relative I've been lucky enough to speak with was adopted. Every single one! That plus no family stories (which is surprising) will make it difficult to find out more anytime soon, most likely. Perhaps my ancestor was also adopted and didn't know her Roma roots? Maybe my great-grandfather was born out of wedlock? Maybe my great-great-grandmother hid her ancestry purposely? I have no idea. But the math doesn't lie, haha.

Panticapaeum
12-14-2020, 09:12 AM
Hello guys. Can I join the club?:P
So, I want to ask...I'm Pontic Greek having also 1/8 russian ancestry. Running my coordinates with neolithic components it seems that I have a little bit more steppe for being only 1/8 Russian. Which populations BA/IA should i use to see If I have any steppe percentage without confusing it with my "baltic-steppe"?

Target: Panti_scaled
Distance: 3.9707% / 0.03970657
58.4 TUR_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N
18.6 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
18.0 GEO_CHG
5.0 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
0.0 Levant_PPNB
0.0 MAR_EN
0.0 RUS_Devils_Gate_Cave_N
0.0 TUR_Barcin_N
0.0 WHG

Davidski's calculator
Target: Panti_scaled
Distance: 3.4756% / 0.03475612
47.2 Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kaps
37.0 Anatolia_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N
12.8 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
3.0 WHG

Greekscholar
12-14-2020, 04:54 PM
Jonny,

I saw you used RUS_Catacomb for Cypriots and it worked well. I tried to use the same model for other Greeks and weird stuff happened. I don't want to derail that thread since it is not about the Greek world, but why would the Catacomb source sample crash the Anatolian BA sample to nothing and inflate Empruries so much?


Target: Greek_Crete
Distance: 1.4766% / 0.01476564
55.6 Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2
24.4 Levant_Ashkelon_IA2
16.8 RUS_Catacomb
3.2 Anatolia_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA


Target: GS_family(Fourni/Ikaria/Samos):GS(Fourni/Ikaria/Samos)
Distance: 2.8414% / 0.02841361
66.2 Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2
19.2 Levant_Ashkelon_IA2
14.6 RUS_Catacomb
0.0 Anatolia_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA


vs.


Target: Greek_Crete
Distance: 0.9494% / 0.00949396
50.4 Anatolia_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA
26.6 HUN_Avar_Szolad
15.4 Levant_Ashkelon_IA2
7.6 Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2

Target: GS_family(Fourni/Ikaria/Samos):GS(Fourni/Ikaria/Samos)
Distance: 1.8370% / 0.01836974
31.4 Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2
26.0 HUN_Avar_Szolad
21.4 Anatolia_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA
21.2 Levant_Ashkelon_IA2

Johnny ola
12-14-2020, 05:32 PM
Jonny,

I saw you used RUS_Catacomb for Cypriots and it worked well. I tried to use the same model for other Greeks and weird stuff happened. I don't want to derail that thread since it is not about the Greek world, but why would the Catacomb source sample crash the Anatolian BA sample to nothing and inflate Empruries so much?


Target: Greek_Crete
Distance: 1.4766% / 0.01476564
55.6 Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2
24.4 Levant_Ashkelon_IA2
16.8 RUS_Catacomb
3.2 Anatolia_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA


Target: GS_family(Fourni/Ikaria/Samos):GS(Fourni/Ikaria/Samos)
Distance: 2.8414% / 0.02841361
66.2 Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2
19.2 Levant_Ashkelon_IA2
14.6 RUS_Catacomb
0.0 Anatolia_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA


vs.


Target: Greek_Crete
Distance: 0.9494% / 0.00949396
50.4 Anatolia_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA
26.6 HUN_Avar_Szolad
15.4 Levant_Ashkelon_IA2
7.6 Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2

Target: GS_family(Fourni/Ikaria/Samos):GS(Fourni/Ikaria/Samos)
Distance: 1.8370% / 0.01836974
31.4 Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2
26.0 HUN_Avar_Szolad
21.4 Anatolia_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA
21.2 Levant_Ashkelon_IA2

Well yes I don't think using Catacomb is necessarily to use it since these Greek people taking their steppe from other sources like empuries2, Hun Avar Slozad etc.Cypriots for some reason need an extra 'steppe' source to use. As for the Levant IA, I think the Levant input in Greek people is in a more mixed form(more close to Anatolian/Aegean DNA) and not in a pure form like the samples from Askhelon and Megido. It is well know after all that the Levant after the IA become more anatolian/aegean like. So these models of me using IA references are not good examples.

Greekscholar
12-14-2020, 05:50 PM
Well yes I don't think using Catacomb is necessarily to use it since these Greek people taking their steppe from other sources like empuries2, Hun Avar Slozad etc.Cypriots for some reason need an extra 'steppe' source to use. As for the Levant IA, I think the Levant input in Greek people is in a more mixed form(more close to Anatolian/Aegean DNA) and not in a pure form like the samples from Askhelon and Megido. It is well know after all that the Levant after the IA become more anatolian/aegean like. So these models of me using IA references are not good examples.

The Dodecanese average behaves differently, more like the Cypriots in that adding that Catacomb reference does not eat up all of their Anatolian_BA, although it inflates Empuries too.


Target: Greek_Dodecanese
Distance: 1.3719% / 0.01371895
41.0 Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2
23.8 Levant_Ashkelon_IA2
23.0 Anatolia_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA
12.2 RUS_Catacomb

vs

Target: Greek_Dodecanese
Distance: 1.3325% / 0.01332535
56.6 Anatolia_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA
18.8 HUN_Avar_Szolad
17.4 Levant_Ashkelon_IA2
7.2 Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2


The new Cypriot samples plus these new Dodecanese samples make me wonder if Cyprus, itself, has contributed significant ancestry to these islands.

So do you think it is overfitting to use both Anatolian BA and Levant IA to model Aegean Greeks, or are you saying we need to use both because we don't have a better source reference that is ancestral?

lacreme
12-14-2020, 06:13 PM
I'm sure I'm doing this wrong but using this extremely restricted list of populations I get the following models for Avar Szolad and Northeast Empuries 2
(the distances being obviously appalling) .
So for the Anatolian BA sample to crash to nothing and Empuries to rise so high it seems...probable ?

Distance: 10.0367% / 0.10036729
Target: HUN_Avar_Szolad
57.3 RUS_Catacomb
42.7 Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2

Distance: 5.7808% / 0.05780822
Target: Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2
96.5 TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA
3.5 RUS_Catacomb


My friend and his mother, in both of them the Anatolian BA really gets reduced to zero


Distance: 2.4144% / 0.02414363
Target: Chris_scaled
67.2 Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2
20.4 RUS_Catacomb
12.4 Levant_Ashkelon_IA2
VS
Distance: 2.0922% / 0.02092204
Target: Chris_scaled
48.9 TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA
32.1 HUN_Avar_Szolad
14.0 Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2
5.0 Levant_Ashkelon_IA2


Distance: 2.2910% / 0.02291039
Target: ChrisMom_scaled
58.6 Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2
21.5 Levant_Ashkelon_IA2
19.9 RUS_Catacomb
VS
Distance: 2.7697% / 0.02769699
Target: ChrisMom_scaled
53.4 TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA
29.1 HUN_Avar_Szolad
10.8 Levant_Ashkelon_IA2
6.7 Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2

Johnny ola
12-14-2020, 06:38 PM
The Dodecanese average behaves differently, more like the Cypriots in that adding that Catacomb reference does not eat up all of their Anatolian_BA, although it inflates Empuries too.


Target: Greek_Dodecanese
Distance: 1.3719% / 0.01371895
41.0 Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2
23.8 Levant_Ashkelon_IA2
23.0 Anatolia_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA
12.2 RUS_Catacomb

vs

Target: Greek_Dodecanese
Distance: 1.3325% / 0.01332535
56.6 Anatolia_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA
18.8 HUN_Avar_Szolad
17.4 Levant_Ashkelon_IA2
7.2 Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2


The new Cypriot samples plus these new Dodecanese samples make me wonder if Cyprus, itself, has contributed significant ancestry to these islands.

So do you think it is overfitting to use both Anatolian BA and Levant IA to model Aegean Greeks, or are you saying we need to use both because we don't have a better source reference that is ancestral?

Exactly this. We don't have any better source to use. If you use hellenistic, roman and MA samples from the Levant it is prolly more accurate and closer to reality. But using such samples you eat other 'admixtures'.Even the BA sample from Anatolia is not 100% accurate source to estimate the west Asian input among Greeks since we lack IA samples from Anatolia(not that it was very different IMO) and in general we don't know how Greeks looked like during hellenistic and Roman times. But if you ask me it's obvious that hellenistic, Roman and Byzantine Greeks had a direction similar to Bronze Age Anatolia(increase in CHG/Iran N and Levant N). Davidski also mention it, that Greeks we look clearly more Anatolian shifted after the IA and classical period. But IMO Anatolian is not enough to cover the west Asian admixture in some Greeks... I think its obvious that Greek islanders and southern Greeks in general require something from the Levant to model them. But, to answer you question... I don't think Cypriots played any role. I think this 'Levant' extra input among islanders have to do with christianizations during the Roman/Byzantine empire from the Levant(when Levant was Christian before it passed to Arabs). There is not other explanation IMO. And BTW this extra Levantine DNA seems to be quite decent in Anatolia especially among Pontic and Cappadocian Greeks and even Armenians who are obviously in a more Mesopotamia/Levant direction. I think the Levant DNA in the Greco-Roman world is a big mystery and I hope one day to be solved. It is also very likely a scenario of Jews who converted to christianity. I have a map that shows Jewish settlement pretty much in many parts of the empire. I am wondering what happened to these people.

41716

Agamemnon
12-14-2020, 06:44 PM
I like that you included the East Med sphere. It looks like it would include Greek Laconia and other Southern shifted Peloponnesian samples.

Indeed, two of the Laconian samples here fall within the East Med Continuum, and several of the Peloponnesians also find themselves inside the continuum. What I find most interesting with the Laconians here is how close they are to South-Central Italians, had I seen these samples without any labels I would've immediately assumed we were dealing with South Italians of some sort:

https://i.imgur.com/zeKvWAg.png

Naturally this brings them even closer to the Mycenaean samples here.

J Man
12-14-2020, 06:58 PM
Indeed, two of the Laconian samples here fall within the East Med Continuum, and several of the Peloponnesians also find themselves inside the continuum. What I find most interesting with the Laconians here is how close they are to South-Central Italians, had I seen these samples without any labels I would've immediately assumed we were dealing with South Italians of some sort:

https://i.imgur.com/zeKvWAg.png

Naturally this brings them even closer to the Mycenaean samples here.

Might be some link here with the large percentage of J2a among Laconians as well.

Greekscholar
12-14-2020, 08:45 PM
[snip]

Catacombs seems to very similar to Yamnaya_Samara


Target: RUS_Catacomb
Distance: 1.9340% / 0.01934027
96.4 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
2.8 GEO_CHG
0.4 Anatolia_Barcin_N
0.4 RUS_Devils_Gate_Cave_N

HUN_Avar_Szolad has some EEF and Balto-Slavic HG, although fit isn't great here either.


Target: HUN_Avar_Szolad
Distance: 5.6263% / 0.05626260
41.0 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
35.2 Anatolia_Barcin_N
23.8 Baltic_LVA_HG


You may be onto what is happening though. It is the Hun_Avar sample that is eating into Empuries, while RUS_Catacomb is almost straight Steepe, and thus most of the EEF in the model goes to the Empuries Source when it is used instead. I found a very easy way to get that Anatolian BA to pop back though, just take out the Levant sample.


Target: Greek_Crete
Distance: 2.1431% / 0.02143102
42.4 Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2
41.8 Anatolia_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA
15.8 RUS_Catacomb

Target: Greek_Dodecanese
Distance: 2.0475% / 0.02047543
60.8 Anatolia_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA
27.8 Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2
11.4 RUS_Catacomb

I am not saying these are the samples we should use to model Aegean Greeks, but seeing (understanding?) how much other components flucuate when you add or delete references is useful considering a major question is Greek genetics is how much ancestry in modern Greeks should be attributed to the Classical period represented by that Empuries sample and Bronze Age Anatolians.

Johnny ola
12-14-2020, 09:19 PM
[snip]

Catacombs seems to very similar to Yamnaya_Samara


Target: RUS_Catacomb
Distance: 1.9340% / 0.01934027
96.4 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
2.8 GEO_CHG
0.4 Anatolia_Barcin_N
0.4 RUS_Devils_Gate_Cave_N

HUN_Avar_Szolad has some EEF and Balto-Slavic HG, although fit isn't great here either.


Target: HUN_Avar_Szolad
Distance: 5.6263% / 0.05626260
41.0 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
35.2 Anatolia_Barcin_N
23.8 Baltic_LVA_HG


You may be onto what is happening though. It is the Hun_Avar sample that is eating into Empuries, while RUS_Catacomb is almost straight Steepe, and thus most of the EEF in the model goes to the Empuries Source when it is used instead. I found a very easy way to get that Anatolian BA to pop back though, just take out the Levant sample.


Target: Greek_Crete
Distance: 2.1431% / 0.02143102
42.4 Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2
41.8 Anatolia_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA
15.8 RUS_Catacomb

Target: Greek_Dodecanese
Distance: 2.0475% / 0.02047543
60.8 Anatolia_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA
27.8 Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2
11.4 RUS_Catacomb

I am not saying these are the samples we should use to model Aegean Greeks, but seeing (understanding?) how much other components flucuate when you add or delete references is useful considering a major question is Greek genetics is how much ancestry in modern Greeks should be attributed to the Classical period represented by that Empuries sample and Bronze Age Anatolians.

Slavs and Balts do not have yamnaya steppe. Yamnaya people did not contribute much. Its corded and bell beakers who played the role when it comes to the 'Steppe European profile'. Empuries2 BTW contains steppe DNA. It is coming from the Greeks... that we don't know exactly from what steppe culture they have come from. Greeks prolly arrived from KMK babyno culture but there are possibilities to have arrived from Catacomb.IMO, they prolly come from a R1a source but I don't want to be an absolute. As for Hun Avar Slozad. Better to use the sample witch is closer to Slavs rather to Balts(Av1).

TonyC
12-14-2020, 09:26 PM
I tried tbis:
Distance: 1.9151% / 0.01915089
Target: Anthony_C_scaled
68.9 Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2
25.8 HUN_Avar_Szolad
5.3 BGR_MLBA
Would the Paleobalkan (BGR MLBA) capture some of the extra steppe not present in the Iberia Northeast sample? I've asked this question before but isn't the INE sample representative of Central Greece (emigrants from Boetia to Asia Minor) during the Classical age and weren't they Dorian in origin; so possibly increased Steppe as well.

eolien
12-15-2020, 12:09 AM
a question:

Is there a reason that the Peloponnesean samples from the 2017 article (https://www.nature.com/articles/ejhg201718) are not in G25 database or are they?

thank you.