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tigertank529
11-09-2020, 02:29 AM
Hi everyone,

I was pondering the impact that the Anglo-Saxons had on the British Isles and the area where Haplogroup I1 is most prevalent in Britain is in eastern England. However, is there a reliable way to distinguish which Y-DNA Haplogroup I1 is Anglo-Saxon or Danish Viking? Where the most I1 is seen is where both the Anglo-Saxons and Danes settled. Most of the studies I have read concluded that Anglo-Saxon and Viking DNA are too similar to be differentiated. There is some debate as to whether or not the Anglo-Saxons had a huge impact on the genetics of Britain, but the significant Danish presence cannot be denied. I understand that both groups have many Haplogroups prevalent among them, like R1b, but they are mainly I1 and come from the same geographical region, particularly the Angles and Danes. Is there a reliable way to distinguish the I1 from both of these groups?

Any input is appreciated B)

deadly77
11-09-2020, 06:43 AM
I would say not currently and probably not in the future, especially not reliably. While the recent Population Genetics of the Viking World paper provided a lot of ancient Viking era samples (including 92 I1 individuals), we're rather lacking in sequenced ancient Anglo-Saxon samples - to my knowledge we only have one male and he's I1 but haven't been able to reliably assign him anything downstream of I-DF29. When you plot the ancient vikings onto the phylogenetic trees established by modern testers, in a lot of cases they branch of from modern individuals significantly before the viking period, which suggests that in a lot of places the current phylogenetic tree isn't developed enough to mark the relevant SNP mutations. Many subclade branches will predate both the viking age and the Anglo-Saxon migration - your own I-S1954 has a TMRCA of 3900-2500 years ago, which predates both and is likely represented in both. I think the problem (as with autosomal DNA) is that both the Anglo-Saxons and Danish Vikings come from similar geographic regions and aren't very far apart in time frame (especially considering the timeframe of Y-SNP mutation rate), so it's likely that they had the same source population further back. And also consider that these weren't isolated populations - they would have mixed with each other to a certain extent which muddies things further.

I don't think there's any debate that the Anglo-Saxons had a huge impact on the genetics of Britain - the big red cluster in the POBI paper shows that. The debate was whether vikings had a significant contribution - initially the POBI paper's conclusion was no but later academics have argued that the DNA is too similar and the viking component is being grouped in with Anglo-Saxon. I also wouldn't say that the vikings were mainly I1 - while I1 was the most common haplogroup in the recent viking paper at 32.06%, that's not an overwhelming majority and the percentages for R1b (29.27%) and R1a (21.25%) are not significantly less and generally in the same ballpark. Put another way, 68% of samples from the viking paper were not I1, which is more than double the percentage of I1 samples. Modern percentages in Scandinavian nations are not too different from these percentages.

It may be possible with a lot more data (both ancient and modern) to call specific, individual cases either way and perhaps there are some trends - the Viking paper had more I-P109 samples than other subgroups. But we also have ancient I-P109 samples that were not vikings and again the TMRCA of I-P109 predates both, and there are non-P109 samples in the dataset. I think most subclades (especially the more commonly referred to groupings) will be represented in both. So I don't think there will be a "reliable" way to distinguish between them. Happy to be proved wrong though.

tigertank529
11-10-2020, 07:15 AM
Thanks for the reply!

That clears a lot of things up for me. I guess more testing has to be done in order to effectively establish a difference and perhaps companies that get a lot of results like 23andme could test further downstream or refine their process for haplogroup placements. I would like it if 23andme tested haplogroups much further downstream instead of giving rather generic placements, but for what they are I've learned so much. Just for clarification, I know that the Anglo-Saxons did have a huge impact on Britain as a whole but I guess the more one-sided outlets have been whittling away at me. My last name wouldn't be what it is if it weren't for them :biggrin1: Cheers!

Nqp15hhu
11-10-2020, 10:57 AM
I notice a lot of Ulster Scots have I1 as a haplogroup. (Obviously aswell as R1b-L193)

spruithean
11-11-2020, 03:37 AM
Thanks for the reply!

That clears a lot of things up for me. I guess more testing has to be done in order to effectively establish a difference and perhaps companies that get a lot of results like 23andme could test further downstream or refine their process for haplogroup placements. I would like it if 23andme tested haplogroups much further downstream instead of giving rather generic placements, but for what they are I've learned so much. Just for clarification, I know that the Anglo-Saxons did have a huge impact on Britain as a whole but I guess the more one-sided outlets have been whittling away at me. My last name wouldn't be what it is if it weren't for them :biggrin1: Cheers!

I don't think it will ever really be possible to discern Anglo-Saxon I1 from Danish I1. The two groups are really separated by some relatively small amount of generations and they share a lot of the same ancestry to begin with (well at least prior to the Anglo-Saxons arrival in Britain). So there is a lot of overlap between the two groups.

tigertank529
11-11-2020, 09:52 PM
That makes sense given most Ulster Scots have origins in the lowlands of Scotland. I'm proof of that, my 3x great grandfather is from County Donegal. I wish it was easier to track where a lot of the Ulster Scots came from in Scotland but a lot of the records pre-famine seem to be destroyed or lost, at least for Donegal. If we could find some of those records it would be a lot easier to pinpoint where a lot of the sources or hotspots for I1 and other Ulster Scots haplogroups came from in Scotland.

sheepslayer
11-11-2020, 10:10 PM
I figure if enough data percolates in the database, clades formed after the Viking Age and after the Anglo-Saxon invasion will start appearing in the leaves of the tree. Those clades are technically Viking and Anglo-Saxon, it's just a matter of getting lucky with ancient DNA. Best case scenario we'll have like 3 clades where they dug up a Viking and he happens to test positive for the SNP formed after AD 900

Nqp15hhu
11-11-2020, 11:06 PM
That makes sense given most Ulster Scots have origins in the lowlands of Scotland. I'm proof of that, my 3x great grandfather is from County Donegal. I wish it was easier to track where a lot of the Ulster Scots came from in Scotland but a lot of the records pre-famine seem to be destroyed or lost, at least for Donegal. If we could find some of those records it would be a lot easier to pinpoint where a lot of the sources or hotspots for I1 and other Ulster Scots haplogroups came from in Scotland.

I think they came from all over Scotland to be honest, though obviously concentrated mostly down in the South and SW. You could try a BIG Y test, but it probably will provide you with a lot of distant matches.

spruithean
11-12-2020, 05:23 PM
That makes sense given most Ulster Scots have origins in the lowlands of Scotland. I'm proof of that, my 3x great grandfather is from County Donegal. I wish it was easier to track where a lot of the Ulster Scots came from in Scotland but a lot of the records pre-famine seem to be destroyed or lost, at least for Donegal. If we could find some of those records it would be a lot easier to pinpoint where a lot of the sources or hotspots for I1 and other Ulster Scots haplogroups came from in Scotland.

I also have some ancestors from Donegal, some of which were likely Ulster-Scots, though they did not contribute to my direct Y-line, which is I1 and from Scotland (don't know which part), though my closest match who shares a variant of my surname and isn't a known relative has roots in Co. Down.


I figure if enough data percolates in the database, clades formed after the Viking Age and after the Anglo-Saxon invasion will start appearing in the leaves of the tree. Those clades are technically Viking and Anglo-Saxon, it's just a matter of getting lucky with ancient DNA. Best case scenario we'll have like 3 clades where they dug up a Viking and he happens to test positive for the SNP formed after AD 900

Fair enough, though so far the amount of ancient I1 found has been quite low, though the Viking paper has helped boost the numbers. There is still a lot of work ahead if we are going to figure out which clades are Anglo-Saxon and which are Viking Age.



I think they came from all over Scotland to be honest, though obviously concentrated mostly down in the South and SW. You could try a BIG Y test, but it probably will provide you with a lot of distant matches.

Yeah, I would imagine that the initial call for settlers by the undertakers would have attracted more than just Scots from the S & SW of Scotland. I1 isn't as common as R1b so I'm not sure how many matches one might get with Big Y, mileage will vary widely. For me the test was only good for ruling out STR matches and making it clear that I'm on my own upstream branch with my closest matches downstream of my position.

The_Lyonnist
11-16-2020, 07:16 PM
We must not forget the Z17954 subclade which quickly broke away to populate France and Great Britain during the Bronze Age, probably.

spruithean
11-16-2020, 11:31 PM
We must not forget the Z17954 subclade which quickly broke away to populate France and Great Britain during the Bronze Age, probably.

Perhaps, but I don't think we can say for sure yet (either way, be it British Isles & France Bronze Age route or post-Bronze Age route). There was a sample (VK275 from Kaargarden in Denmark) in the recent Viking paper was I-Y154876 (BY74743) which is a bit downstream from I-Z17954. There are some ancient samples from France trickling in if I remember correctly? I forget which clades those were.

JMcB
11-17-2020, 01:01 AM
We must not forget the Z17954 subclade which quickly broke away to populate France and Great Britain during the Bronze Age, probably.

Hello Lyonnist,

Did you decide to upload your VCF file to YFull after all? I’m seeing a new sample there, that I don’t recall from the other day.


Edit: Also, if you would like to check out any of the new VK samples, you can always look on Deadly77’s map:

https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer?mid=1znTXv7qpl4_2T4u9068jOaLzpsjNf62F&ll=55.538826867432675%2C-26.64711435000003&z=3&fbclid=IwAR1RFLbSoE4JQWsZg-9sENG0UwjIvTm0DoHgokcIkFcLpRGi9YMSIzjeugI

Amerismed
11-17-2020, 04:50 AM
They should connive for some reason, for sure they will be stronger.

The_Lyonnist
11-17-2020, 05:03 PM
Hello Lyonnist,

Did you decide to upload your VCF file to YFull after all? Iím seeing a new sample there, that I donít recall from the other day.


Edit: Also, if you would like to check out any of the new VK samples, you can always look on Deadly77ís map:

https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer?mid=1znTXv7qpl4_2T4u9068jOaLzpsjNf62F&ll=55.538826867432675%2C-26.64711435000003&z=3&fbclid=IwAR1RFLbSoE4JQWsZg-9sENG0UwjIvTm0DoHgokcIkFcLpRGi9YMSIzjeugI

Yes, I do. https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-S2320/ I'm the new.

I'm even BY63754.

JMcB
11-17-2020, 06:10 PM
Yes, I do. https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-S2320/ I'm the new.

I'm even BY63754.


Very good! If I’m not mistaken, YFull is going to split your branch once they update their tree and put you in a new subclade with your French colleague. I’m not sure when their new update is coming but you can keep an eye on it by clicking on their red “Live” tab.

JerryS.
11-29-2020, 04:27 AM
my paternal haplogroup is I1 but colonial-American English. my mother's paternal side is North German. my mother's maternal side is Scottish (Scott-Irish). my NW ancestry seems to reflect some Scandinavian but I guess it will never be known if it is because of my I1 English, or my German bordering with Denmark.

spruithean
11-29-2020, 06:02 PM
my paternal haplogroup is I1 but colonial-American English. my mother's paternal side is North German. my mother's maternal side is Scottish (Scott-Irish). my NW ancestry seems to reflect some Scandinavian but I guess it will never be known if it is because of my I1 English, or my German bordering with Denmark.

My Y-line is I1, a seemingly British Isles oriented subclade that traces back to Scotland. I also pick up some Scandinavian, however I suspect that has more to do with my maternal ancestry (it being Dutch with some Frisian thrown in).

Your Scandinavian is likely something to do with your German ancestry, especially if it is in the Schleswig-Holstein area.

JerryS.
11-29-2020, 06:54 PM
My Y-line is I1, a seemingly British Isles oriented subclade that traces back to Scotland. I also pick up some Scandinavian, however I suspect that has more to do with my maternal ancestry (it being Dutch with some Frisian thrown in).

Your Scandinavian is likely something to do with your German ancestry, especially if it is in the Schleswig-Holstein area.

I traced my maternal grandfather's family on both sides back to Bremen, Hamburg, and Mecklenburg, all surnames were German and came directly to America. my maternal grandmother's side was Scottish with a few females with Irish surnames, all of whom came from Scotland to Canada (PEI and Ontario) then to America (this would be my X gene). my father's paternal line (my Y gene giving me haplogroup I1 (P109?)) is colonial American-English settling in the Appalachians with male and female English surnames only. my father's mother's line is where the deviation from NW European comes in, though there was one English surname there as well.

*** since the topic came up, does anyone know why so many Scots emigrated to America through Canada in the mid-late 1800s?

mwauthy
12-01-2020, 04:41 PM
If the original Danes were North Germanic coming from Scania, Zealand, and Funen perhaps they might have slightly different patrilineal haplogroups compared to West Germanic tribes such as the Saxons and Frisians or other Jutland peninsula tribes along the North Sea? Although, if scientists say they can’t differentiate between the two from an autosomal standpoint then the same will probably apply to the Y chromosome as well?

Dewsloth
12-01-2020, 06:06 PM
My 10th great grandfather Rev. Joseph Hull (not Y-Line) is the same I1 subclade as at least 3* of the Viking paper burials, with the modern Yfull samples being overwhelmingly Swedish and Norwegian.

I have him as I1-L1301+, but Yfull calls it I1-S73:
https://yfull.com/tree/I-Z73/

He was born around 1595 in Crewkerne, Somerset (Wessex), which seems to have had Saxon-then-Norman roots, so I'm not sure if there's a Viking origin or something else.

The surname "Hull" isn't much help, as it seems to sprout up in reference to the river in Yorkshire around the 1200s or so; in contrast to my more helpfully-surnamed Gunn and Thrall ancestors. ;)

Edit: *Another 4 Vikings on the L1302+ sub-branch, but he is L1302-.

spruithean
12-01-2020, 08:21 PM
I traced my maternal grandfather's family on both sides back to Bremen, Hamburg, and Mecklenburg, all surnames were German and came directly to America. my maternal grandmother's side was Scottish with a few females with Irish surnames, all of whom came from Scotland to Canada (PEI and Ontario) then to America (this would be my X gene). my father's paternal line (my Y gene giving me haplogroup I1 (P109?)) is colonial American-English settling in the Appalachians with male and female English surnames only. my father's mother's line is where the deviation from NW European comes in, though there was one English surname there as well.

*** since the topic came up, does anyone know why so many Scots emigrated to America through Canada in the mid-late 1800s?

Do you mean Scottish-Canadians or Scots?

If it’s the former it has a lot to do with loss of jobs in the Maritimes especially.

JerryS.
12-01-2020, 09:45 PM
Do you mean Scottish-Canadians or Scots?

If it’s the former it has a lot to do with loss of jobs in the Maritimes especially.

I don't know how long they were in Canada before they came to America, they came from Canada with birthplace listed as Scotland. I know the story for one who got here in 1862 via PEI to Maine to Illinois, but not the others from Ontario to Ohio then to Illinois, they got to the states in the late 1880s.

JMcB
12-13-2020, 04:15 PM
Yes, I do. https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-S2320/ I'm the new.

I'm even BY63754.


Hello Lyonnist,

In case you haven’t noticed, it looks like YFull has split your branch on their “Live” Tree. Which should show up for good when they update their tree. From what they say, it should be in the near future.

https://www.yfull.com/live/tree/I-S2320/

Paul333
01-29-2021, 02:25 PM
I also have some ancestors from Donegal, some of which were likely Ulster-Scots, though they did not contribute to my direct Y-line, which is I1 and from Scotland (don't know which part), though my closest match who shares a variant of my surname and isn't a known relative has roots in Co. Down.



Fair enough, though so far the amount of ancient I1 found has been quite low, though the Viking paper has helped boost the numbers. There is still a lot of work ahead if we are going to figure out which clades are Anglo-Saxon and which are Viking Age.




Yeah, I would imagine that the initial call for settlers by the undertakers would have attracted more than just Scots from the S & SW of Scotland. I1 isn't as common as R1b so I'm not sure how many matches one might get with Big Y, mileage will vary widely. For me the test was only good for ruling out STR matches and making it clear that I'm on my own upstream branch with my closest matches downstream of my position.


Regarding Uk,to Ireland migration and Y DNA, 'I' 109, movements.

My Maternal Grandfather came from Northumberland, His surname is from a well known lowland Scots/Northumbrian Border Reivers family from Liddlesdale, who are made famous by the Northumbrian folk song 'the Death of Percy Reed' the area was known as the Marches or the debateble lands. 23 & Me have a person today with the same unusual surname as my fourth cousin. his Y DNA is 'I' 109, ( 'I1a1ba1'. )

The area was settled by Angles during the 6/7th centuries, rather than the later danish Vikings, mostly the same people, and no doubt some lowland Scots and Northumbrians migrated to Ireland. A lot of people with the same family surname migrated from the area to Fermanagh, and Armagh, Ireland,from the mid Seventeenth century,1630s, but a lot stayed in the border areas such as my mothers and my maternal grandfathers family.