PDA

View Full Version : Crimean Karaite



Alkaevli
11-13-2020, 07:36 PM
I don't know if the bolded part makes sense, but this Crimean Karaite individual can be modeled as a mix of Levantine populations (Alawites and Druze) and southern Crimean Tatars. It should be noted that Arab Alawites from Turkey genetically resemble Lebanese populations, the former are slightly northern shifted compared to the latter.

https://abload.de/img/adszo0jpd.png
https://abload.de/img/27sjif.png

Single Population Approximation List:

1. Greek_Nigde @ 7,564113
2. Turk_Cyprus @ 7,58722
3. Turk_Anatolia_Central_East @ 7,835994
4. Turk_Anatolia_Central_West @ 7,857666
5. Greek_Kastellorizo @ 7,89698
6. Turk_Anatolia_Central_Black_Sea @ 8,140957
7. Greek_Kayseri @ 8,482373
8. Greek_Crete @ 8,647641
9. Greek_Rhodes @ 8,691733
10. Turk_Anatolia_West_Black_Sea @ 9,231068
11. Greek_Karpathos @ 9,395006
12. Greek_Symi @ 9,452428
13. Greek_Chios @ 9,543658
14. Turk_Anatolia_South @ 9,606825
15. Turk_Anatolia_Southeast @ 9,934028
16. Turk_Anatolia_Southwest @ 10,089579
17. Greek_Ikaria @ 10,204671
18. Arab_Christian_Turkey @ 10,246457
19. Arab_Alawite_Turkey @ 10,633668
20. Lebanese_Muslim @ 10,740843


2-Population Approximation List:

1. %44 Azerbaijani_Karabakh + %56 Greek_Ikaria @ 2,626553
2. %47 Ashkenazi_Jew + %53 Azerbaijani_Karabakh @ 2,652857
3. %49 Greek_Ikaria + %51 Turk_Anatolia_Southeast @ 2,670657
4. %58 Arab_Alawite_Turkey + %42 Crimean_Tatar_Mountain @ 2,756763
5. %54 Arab_Alawite_Turkey + %46 Crimean_Tatar_Coast @ 2,803922
6. %58 Crimean_Tatar_Coast + %42 Druze @ 2,813612
7. %54 Crimean_Tatar_Mountain + %46 Druze @ 2,869909
8. %52 Assyrian + %48 Greek_Peloponnese @ 2,937984
9. %52 Greek_Ikaria + %48 Turk_Anatolia_East @ 2,938997
10. %33 Azerbaijani_Qakh-Zaqatala + %67 Greek_Symi @ 2,950158
11. %43 Azerbaijani + %57 Greek_Ikaria @ 2,968535
12. %44 Azerbaijani_Turkey + %56 Greek_Ikaria @ 2,982987
13. %40 Ashkenazi_Jew + %60 Turk_Anatolia_Southeast @ 2,989547
14. %47 Greek_Crete + %53 Turk_Anatolia_Central_East @ 2,999238
15. %54 Greek_Crete + %46 Turk_Anatolia_Southeast @ 3,032942
16. %49 Ashkenazi_Jew + %51 Azerbaijani @ 3,052564
17. %40 Azerbaijani_Turkey + %60 Greek_Crete @ 3,053385
18. %52 Ashkenazi_Jew + %48 Zaza @ 3,067609
19. %43 Ashkenazi_Jew + %57 Turk_Anatolia_East @ 3,069821
20. %56 Greek_Crete + %44 Turk_Anatolia_East @ 3,070036

Alkaevli
11-13-2020, 07:57 PM
MDLP World
Admix Results (sorted):


# Population Percent
1 Caucaus_Parsia 31.06
2 South_and_West_European 30.74
3 Middle_East 23.97
4 North_and_East_European 8.54
5 Indian 3.07
6 North_Asian 1.36
7 East_Asian 0.77
8 Arctic_Amerind 0.45
9 Sub_Saharian 0.03


# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 62.4% Jew_Azerbaijan + 37.6% Romania @ 1.7
2 56.3% Jew_Romania + 43.7% Kurd @ 1.95
3 61.1% Jew_Tat + 38.9% Romania @ 1.98
4 55.9% Greek_East + 44.1% Iranian @ 2.09
5 74.2% Jew-Uzbekistan + 25.8% Basque @ 2.1
6 65.3% Jew-Uzbekistan + 34.7% Italian_North @ 2.15
7 69.4% Jew-Uzbekistan + 30.6% Spaniard @ 2.2
8 53.8% Italian-Center + 46.2% Iranian @ 2.21
9 51.2% Jew-Uzbekistan + 48.8% Greek_North @ 2.28
10 61.9% Jew-Uzbekistan + 38.1% Italian-North @ 2.32
11 51% Jew-Uzbekistan + 49% Greek_South @ 2.33
12 54.3% Greek_Center + 45.7% Iranian @ 2.35
13 64.3% Jew_Tat + 35.7% Italian_North @ 2.43
14 69.6% Jew_Azerbaijan + 30.4% French @ 2.43
15 62.2% Jew-Uzbekistan + 37.8% Romania @ 2.44
16 67.6% Greek_Azov + 32.4% Lebanese @ 2.45
17 66.4% Jew-Uzbekistan + 33.6% Provancal @ 2.54
18 66.8% Jew_Azerbaijan + 33.2% Swiss @ 2.56
19 71.5% Greek_Azov + 28.5% Syrian @ 2.57
20 68.5% Jew_Tat + 31.5% French @ 2.61

jkotl0327
11-14-2020, 12:05 AM
I don't know if the bolded part makes sense, but this Crimean Karaite individual can be modeled as a mix of Levantine populations (Alawites and Druze) and southern Crimean Tatars. It should be noted that Arab Alawites from Turkey genetically resemble Lebanese populations, the former are slightly northern shifted compared to the latter.

https://abload.de/img/adszo0jpd.png
https://abload.de/img/27sjif.png

Single Population Approximation List:

1. Greek_Nigde @ 7,564113
2. Turk_Cyprus @ 7,58722
3. Turk_Anatolia_Central_East @ 7,835994
4. Turk_Anatolia_Central_West @ 7,857666
5. Greek_Kastellorizo @ 7,89698
6. Turk_Anatolia_Central_Black_Sea @ 8,140957
7. Greek_Kayseri @ 8,482373
8. Greek_Crete @ 8,647641
9. Greek_Rhodes @ 8,691733
10. Turk_Anatolia_West_Black_Sea @ 9,231068
11. Greek_Karpathos @ 9,395006
12. Greek_Symi @ 9,452428
13. Greek_Chios @ 9,543658
14. Turk_Anatolia_South @ 9,606825
15. Turk_Anatolia_Southeast @ 9,934028
16. Turk_Anatolia_Southwest @ 10,089579
17. Greek_Ikaria @ 10,204671
18. Arab_Christian_Turkey @ 10,246457
19. Arab_Alawite_Turkey @ 10,633668
20. Lebanese_Muslim @ 10,740843


2-Population Approximation List:

1. %44 Azerbaijani_Karabakh + %56 Greek_Ikaria @ 2,626553
2. %47 Ashkenazi_Jew + %53 Azerbaijani_Karabakh @ 2,652857
3. %49 Greek_Ikaria + %51 Turk_Anatolia_Southeast @ 2,670657
4. %58 Arab_Alawite_Turkey + %42 Crimean_Tatar_Mountain @ 2,756763
5. %54 Arab_Alawite_Turkey + %46 Crimean_Tatar_Coast @ 2,803922
6. %58 Crimean_Tatar_Coast + %42 Druze @ 2,813612
7. %54 Crimean_Tatar_Mountain + %46 Druze @ 2,869909
8. %52 Assyrian + %48 Greek_Peloponnese @ 2,937984
9. %52 Greek_Ikaria + %48 Turk_Anatolia_East @ 2,938997
10. %33 Azerbaijani_Qakh-Zaqatala + %67 Greek_Symi @ 2,950158
11. %43 Azerbaijani + %57 Greek_Ikaria @ 2,968535
12. %44 Azerbaijani_Turkey + %56 Greek_Ikaria @ 2,982987
13. %40 Ashkenazi_Jew + %60 Turk_Anatolia_Southeast @ 2,989547
14. %47 Greek_Crete + %53 Turk_Anatolia_Central_East @ 2,999238
15. %54 Greek_Crete + %46 Turk_Anatolia_Southeast @ 3,032942
16. %49 Ashkenazi_Jew + %51 Azerbaijani @ 3,052564
17. %40 Azerbaijani_Turkey + %60 Greek_Crete @ 3,053385
18. %52 Ashkenazi_Jew + %48 Zaza @ 3,067609
19. %43 Ashkenazi_Jew + %57 Turk_Anatolia_East @ 3,069821
20. %56 Greek_Crete + %44 Turk_Anatolia_East @ 3,070036

Is this person willing to do G25?

StillWater
11-14-2020, 04:45 PM
Mind posting his Eurogenes K13? (edit: just noticed you have)

StillWater
11-14-2020, 05:14 PM
Mind posting his Eurogenes K36?

Buxoro
11-14-2020, 06:44 PM
Why is it terrifying? He's a Karaite not a Tatar, it's a group that is related to Jews, there was a religious split between us and them centuries ago.

Ah i thought it was about crimean tatar, haven’t read fully the thread, just gedmatch numbers.
Didn’t know about karaites in crimea.

Alkaevli
11-14-2020, 07:30 PM
Mind posting his Eurogenes K36?
Amerindian -
Arabian 6.55 Pct
Armenian 7.16 Pct
Basque -
Central_African -
Central_Euro 0.79 Pct
East_African -
East_Asian -
East_Balkan 4.69 Pct
East_Central_Asian 1.23 Pct
East_Central_Euro 3.21 Pct
East_Med 19.88 Pct
Eastern_Euro -
Fennoscandian -
French 3.09 Pct
Iberian 1.56 Pct
Indo-Chinese -
Italian 12.32 Pct
Malayan -
Near_Eastern 11.88 Pct
North_African -
North_Atlantic 2.69 Pct
North_Caucasian 8.02 Pct
North_Sea -
Northeast_African -
Oceanian -
Omotic -
Pygmy -
Siberian 0.22 Pct
South_Asian 1.82 Pct
South_Central_Asian 3.61 Pct
South_Chinese -
Volga-Ural -
West_African -
West_Caucasian 8.25 Pct
West_Med 3.02 Pct


Is this person willing to do G25?
The admin of the Crimean Tatar DNA project told me that the person has passed away.

leorcooper19
11-14-2020, 07:40 PM
The admin of the Crimean Tatar DNA project told me that the person has passed away.

If the admin has consent from the sample provider and access to their raw data (which I assume they would if they were able to upload to GEDmatch) then getting G25 coordinates is still well within reach: https://bga101.blogspot.com/2017/10/genetic-ancestry-online-store-to-be.html

jkotl0327
11-15-2020, 01:22 AM
Ah i thought it was about crimean tatar, havenít read fully the thread, just gedmatch numbers.
Didnít know about karaites in crimea.

Read, it's one of the most well-known Karaite groups.

StillWater
11-15-2020, 10:53 PM
His East Asian is comparable to mine.

Seabass
12-15-2020, 12:16 PM
V5.9 23andme results of three Crimean Karaites.

41743

41744

41745

StillWater
12-15-2020, 02:02 PM
V5.9 23andme results of three Crimean Karaites.

41743

41744

41745

Thanks for posting these! Could you remind us where each is from? I recall some being partly from Lithuania, Turkey etc. How closely related are they to one another and to you? What kind of people show up as your common matches?

Seabass
12-15-2020, 02:09 PM
23andme doesn't let me check how closely related they are to each other

I lied, I forgot about an ancestry tool. They're related and appear just to be cousins.

Crimean1 & Crimean2 share 11 segments at 89 cM

Crimean2 & Crimean3 share 16 segments at 179 cM

Crimean1 & Crimean3 share 18 segments at 183 cM

StillWater
12-15-2020, 03:25 PM
I marked the country of birth of their 4 grandparents in the file name, just hover the mouse over the attachment before click it and it should say. 23andme doesn't let me check how closely related they are to each other, all I know is someone who manages the 3 profiles of these Crimean Karaites sent me an invitation 5+ years ago because he was curious if there would be a connection since I'm 1/2 Sephardic. I don't share any DNA with all three of them. Generally on 23andme 90% plus of my relatives are Ashkenazi despite having no known Ashkenazi ancestor. I do have Jewish relatives popping up from Turkey, Greece, Egypt, Libya and Syria. No Mizrahi relatives found yet that I'm aware. No non-Jewish Turkish or Greek relatives, just one mysterious Catholic Sicilian distant relative. The Ashkenazi my Sephardic parent scores on Ancestry Composition is no more or less than what other Eastern Sephardic Jews score.

Can you see subregions for them?

jkotl0327
12-15-2020, 09:38 PM
V5.9 23andme results of three Crimean Karaites.

41743

41744

41745

Why do we see such a high ICM for #2? Is the subregion that 23andme predominantly gives E Turkey provinces, just out of interest, or something else?

Seabass
12-15-2020, 10:50 PM
Can you see subregions for them?


Why do we see such a high ICM for #2? Is the subregion that 23andme predominantly gives E Turkey provinces, just out of interest, or something else?

All 3 don't have specific location matches, what you're seeing here is as much as I can see about them, besides that I can toggle their ancestry composition at 50-90% confidence. I'm guessing most of the ICM is Anatolia related. The ratio of Italian:Anatolian:ICM leads me to think they must be pretty Anatolian, not to be captain obvious.

StillWater
12-16-2020, 02:07 AM
All 3 don't have specific location matches, what you're seeing here is as much as I can see about them, besides that I can toggle their ancestry composition at 50-90% confidence. I'm guessing most of the ICM is Anatolia related. The ratio of Italian:Anatolian:ICM leads me to think they must be pretty Anatolian, not to be captain obvious.

Given Karaite history, it could also be heavily Mizrachi.

jkotl0327
12-16-2020, 04:29 PM
Given Karaite history, it could also be heavily Mizrachi.

Never seen Mizrahim get such Anatolian. For the heavy ICM one it could be potentially, but given the others' Anatolian, I wouldn't hold out hope.

CyrylBojarski
12-16-2020, 04:39 PM
Never seen Mizrahim get such Anatolian. For the heavy ICM one it could be potentially, but given the others' Anatolian, I wouldn't hold out hope.

It is likely DNA from local Crimean Tatar population

jkotl0327
12-16-2020, 06:28 PM
It is likely DNA from local Crimean Tatar population

Perhaps. Do they have a G25 average?

CyrylBojarski
12-16-2020, 07:55 PM
Perhaps. Do they have a G25 average?

I do not know. From Gedmatch results on 1 page it looks like almost half Crimean Tatar half Levantine Karaites are

StillWater
12-17-2020, 12:43 AM
Never seen Mizrahim get such Anatolian. For the heavy ICM one it could be potentially, but given the others' Anatolian, I wouldn't hold out hope.

Was talking about that individual.

StillWater
12-17-2020, 12:44 AM
It is likely DNA from local Crimean Tatar population

The new update is really bad for mixed MENA groups. However, some is probably from Anatolia itself.

Seabass
12-17-2020, 01:04 AM
Perhaps. Do they have a G25 average?

I've asked the person managing the 3 kits if that would be of interest but never heard back. Could well have forgotten about 23andme.

jkotl0327
12-17-2020, 03:08 AM
I do not know. From Gedmatch results on 1 page it looks like almost half Crimean Tatar half Levantine Karaites are

From 23andme, I'm assuming that pretty much all the MENA except Anatolian and N African is Jewish (looking at 1st and 3rd individuals) and add the Ashkenazi, that puts them less than half unless some of that Anatolian is Jewish but seems unlikely to me. I wonder where the Italian is from.

Seabass
12-18-2020, 09:04 AM
From 23andme, I'm assuming that pretty much all the MENA except Anatolian and N African is Jewish (looking at 1st and 3rd individuals) and add the Ashkenazi, that puts them less than half unless some of that Anatolian is Jewish but seems unlikely to me. I wonder where the Italian is from.

The Italian isn't likely to be real at all and especially isn't suggestive of admixture with Western Jews, since Eastern Sephardic Jews get 10-25% Italian with this new update, so not even all that significantly more than the Crimean Karaites. I think the Italian + Anatolian probably just points to the Aegean/West Anatolia corridor in their case regarding maybe one part only of their ancestry.

jkotl0327
12-18-2020, 05:00 PM
The Italian isn't likely to be real at all and especially isn't suggestive of admixture with Western Jews, since Eastern Sephardic Jews get 10-25% Italian with this new update, so not even all that significantly more than the Crimean Karaites. I think the Italian + Anatolian probably just points to the Aegean/West Anatolia corridor in their case regarding maybe one part only of their ancestry.

Yeah that tracks, I guess Romaniotes would be the likely candidates for the source. But you have one guy with 17.8 Italy. Assuming that's all from Romaniotes and some of the Levantine of course, how admixed would they have to be with Romaniotes? Let's say they can be modeled as MENA Karaim + Romaniotes + Crimean Tatars (Anatolia). That's a lot of Romaniote in the Karaite population, and I could be wrong but that seems like more than is possible.