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alan
11-18-2020, 04:29 PM
Can anyone tell me anything about Greek Z2103. I am curious to understand where it fits in in the complex history of Greece. I get the basic picture that it wasnt there in the Neolithic and must have arrived from the bronze age onward. I'd be curious to know if it was associated with the earlier Bronze Age, with connections north to the Balkans or east to Anatolia, the Mycenaean era or the supposed Doric invasions. Also whether the clades link Greek Z2103 to Armenians or whoever. I have a reasonable understanding of the archaeology of Greece but I havent a clue about its DNA.

Principe
11-18-2020, 04:46 PM
Can anyone tell me anything about Greek Z2103. I am curious to understand where it fits in in the complex history of Greece. I get the basic picture that it wasnt there in the Neolithic and must have arrived from the bronze age onward. I'd be curious to know if it was associated with the earlier Bronze Age, with connections north to the Balkans or east to Anatolia, the Mycenaean era or the supposed Doric invasions. Also whether the clades link Greek Z2103 to Armenians or whoever. I have a reasonable understanding of the archaeology of Greece but I havent a clue about its DNA.

I have been trying to figure this out too, even by looking at Z2103 in Southern Italy, unfortunately Greece is extremely undertested and odds are we might find out first via ancient dna than modern, but if I had to guess either something very close to Yamnaya's Y like KMS67.

The most common one today or the one most tested BY611 definitely post dates Ancient Greeks.

Mis
11-18-2020, 05:37 PM
Afanasievo and Catacomb both have R1b-z2109 lines, Yamnaya agrees to R1b-KMS67.

dosas
11-18-2020, 06:04 PM
I am Z2103>Y155609 (BY175662) from Thrace.

My records/literature research point to Thessaly, but recently I spoke with an Armenian Project admin. who thinks it might be a clade connected to Armenian Byzantine presence in Thrace and more specifically somehow related to Prince Grigorios Pakourianos' entourage (from Tao/Tayk) in Bachkovo.

The TMRCA I have is with a Chechen at 3500 ybp, so not very helpful.

I am waiting for potential matches, because nothing is concrete 100%, so be my guest with your guesses.

Silesian
11-18-2020, 06:26 PM
Armenian sample Rise397- LBA-Kapan R-PH4902

https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-CTS8966/
R-Y18961*Sample Macedonian.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-A3-AmrW_qF4/VaYdBblsrsI/AAAAAAAAAKI/Gd1ORzTsgw8/s1600/R1b-tree-Sergey-Malyshev.jpg

Lancer
11-25-2020, 03:35 PM
Great Question! I too would like to know what events/personage which enabled it to split off the L23 branch of Y. I have tested downtree of Z2103.

rafc
11-29-2020, 10:33 PM
While BY611 is too young, it's sister clade Y5587 has several lines in Bulgaria, together they have a TMRCA of 4600ybp on Yfull, seems to me they could have a connection with arrival of IE in the Balkans & Greece. The rest of CTS1450 looks very Western European which might suggest a split where part went to the Balkans and another part got involved in corded ware or something like that.
While it's not Z2103 but rather it's 'uncle', I would also think R1b-PF7562/PF7563 has a strong connection with arrival of IE in the Balkans & Greece. There is an obvious link with Armenia as every branch has samples from there, but at the same time nearly every branch of PF7563 has Balkans samples, and the group is also present in Greece. See BY16680 (TMRCA 4500BP), with a Serbian, a Romanian and a Kosovarian in three seperate branches, next to an Ashkenazi group. Z29764 (TMRCA 4500BP) has two seperate branches with Albanians, BY141457 has an Albanian and a Bulgarian. I'm sure if we had more testing for Greece they would also show up there.

vasil
11-29-2020, 11:51 PM
I think that because Armenian is the closest to Hellenic the Brygian>Phrygian>Armenian thing is very likely and that would mean the orginal Hellenic speakers would have been Z2103>L277, Z2103>L584 and PF7562 but since Greece is the worst tested country in the Balkans and probably Europe its very hard to say anything, i really dont know what they are waiting for someone should start pushing people to get tested maybe Dosas.

XXD
11-30-2020, 02:45 AM
I am a Greek with a paternal origin from Chios (17th century), and based on my original surname (Vafeiadis), a Pontic ultimate origin is deduced. My haplogroup is R-CTS9219, would you guys have any ideas on its origin? I see it is on a different branch from the "Balkan" Z2103.

Currently impossible for me to get further tested due to financial limitations...

Johnny ola
11-30-2020, 03:36 AM
I am a Greek with a paternal origin from Chios (17th century), and based on my original surname (Vafeiadis), a Pontic ultimate origin is deduced. My haplogroup is R-CTS9219, would you guys have any ideas on its origin? I see it is on a different branch from the "Balkan" Z2103.

Currently impossible for me to get further tested due to financial limitations...

Do you have any autosomal results to show? Vafeiadis is 100% a Pontic Greek surname and very frenquent in western Pontus. Can you link eurogenes K13?

As for you haplogroup it is prolly from the BA. It might be connected with many people, like Greeks, Anatolians, Armenians, Thracians etc.But It can be arrived with migrations or barbarians in west Asia.

rafc
11-30-2020, 08:29 AM
I am a Greek with a paternal origin from Chios (17th century), and based on my original surname (Vafeiadis), a Pontic ultimate origin is deduced. My haplogroup is R-CTS9219, would you guys have any ideas on its origin? I see it is on a different branch from the "Balkan" Z2103.

Currently impossible for me to get further tested due to financial limitations...

Where do you see it is on a different branch? CTS9219 is upstream from most of the Balkan Z2103 groups.

XXD
11-30-2020, 12:21 PM
Do you have any autosomal results to show? Vafeiadis is 100% a Pontic Greek surname and very frenquent in western Pontus. Can you link eurogenes K13?

As for you haplogroup it is prolly from the BA. It might be connected with many people, like Greeks, Anatolians, Armenians, Thracians etc.But It can be arrived with migrations or barbarians in west Asia.

I'm the guy who started this thread:

https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?21384-Greek-R1b-CTS9219-autosomes-from-23andMe

If I buy G25 coordinates, would it be possible for any of you to help me out on Vahaduo to see how I plot with other Greeks and ancients?

I am very mixed, my mother being half Sfakian Cretan, half from Tripolis, while my father is from Constantinople with ancestors from Ikonio and Odessa (likely Urum). 23 and me says I only have 0.1% East Asian ancestry, but in my GEDMATCH, my first three matches are Cretans, but the fourth one is Chinese :p

XXD
11-30-2020, 12:23 PM
Where do you see it is on a different branch? CTS9219 is upstream from most of the Balkan Z2103 groups.

So if I ever test my Y further, should I test under Z2103?

Johnny ola
11-30-2020, 12:23 PM
I'm the guy who started this thread:

https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?21384-Greek-R1b-CTS9219-autosomes-from-23andMe

If I buy G25 coordinates, would it be possible for any of you to help me out on Vahaduo to see how I plot with other Greeks and ancients?

I am very mixed, my mother being half Sfakian Cretan, half from Tripolis, while my father is from Constantinople with ancestors from Ikonio and Odessa (likely Urum). 23 and me says I only have 0.1% East Asian ancestry, but in my GEDMATCH, my first three matches are Cretans, but the fourth one is Chinese :p

Yes it would be good to buy coordinates from G25.The analysis of your autosomal will be better.

XXD
11-30-2020, 12:25 PM
OK I'll do it now and I'll post my coordinates in the original thread. Cheers!

Kanenas
11-30-2020, 01:32 PM
I had expressed the opinion that proto-Greeks and Mycenaeans did not have it.

I think there is a connection of R1b-M269 and related haplogroups including Z2103 with lake dwelling.

A population that could have had the subclades common in Albanians which may exist in Greece are the 'lake dwellers' of Paeonia, mentioned by Herodotus, who had a non-Greek like lifestyle, but parallels with populations in Alps and North Italy.

The are also movements from North Italy, during the BA collapse and movements from the East both early and late, including the times of 'Byzantines'.

Johnny ola
11-30-2020, 01:47 PM
Taking serious your gedmatch results i think you have moslty mainland Greek roots,with prolly some Greek islander-West Anatolian Greek input.As for your lineage/clade it is very frenquent in balkans.I think you need a deeper testing to understand more about it.


Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 West_Med 22.72
2 East_Med 18.99
3 West_Asian 16.99
4 North_Atlantic 16.86
5 Baltic 14.29
6 Red_Sea 6.42
7 Sub-Saharan 1.39
8 Amerindian 1.30


Finished reading population data. 204 populations found.
13 components mode.

--------------------------------

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 Greek_Thessaly @ 9.565177
2 Central_Greek @ 11.386562
3 Italian_Abruzzo @ 12.123068
4 East_Sicilian @ 12.792544
5 Bulgarian @ 13.843568
6 West_Sicilian @ 14.111320
7 Tuscan @ 15.240873
8 South_Italian @ 15.573442
9 Romanian @ 15.719872
10 Ashkenazi @ 18.204596
11 North_Italian @ 18.790863
12 Serbian @ 20.265820
13 Sephardic_Jewish @ 22.646793
14 Algerian_Jewish @ 22.665009
15 Italian_Jewish @ 23.632925
16 Turkish @ 25.223803
17 Moldavian @ 25.338692
18 Tunisian_Jewish @ 26.597006
19 Libyan_Jewish @ 26.709566
20 Spanish_Extremadura @ 26.798120

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% Bulgarian +50% Central_Greek @ 8.840830


Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% Bulgarian +25% Kumyk +25% Sardinian @ 5.384452


Using 4 populations approximation:
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++
1 Libyan_Jewish + Ossetian + Russian_Smolensk + Sardinian @ 3.645146
2 Ossetian + Russian_Smolensk + Sardinian + Tunisian_Jewish @ 3.663691
3 Libyan_Jewish + North_Ossetian + Sardinian + Ukrainian_Lviv @ 3.710663
4 North_Ossetian + Sardinian + Tunisian_Jewish + Ukrainian_Lviv @ 3.752485
5 Kabardin + Sardinian + Tunisian_Jewish + Ukrainian_Lviv @ 3.758087
6 Adygei + Libyan_Jewish + Sardinian + Ukrainian_Lviv @ 3.758427
7 Adygei + Sardinian + Tunisian_Jewish + Ukrainian_Lviv @ 3.762022
8 Libyan_Jewish + Ossetian + Polish + Sardinian @ 3.778863
9 Bedouin + Ossetian + Polish + Sardinian @ 3.780277
10 Kabardin + Libyan_Jewish + Sardinian + Ukrainian_Lviv @ 3.784759
11 Ossetian + Polish + Sardinian + Tunisian_Jewish @ 3.798422
12 Chechen + Libyan_Jewish + Sardinian + Ukrainian_Lviv @ 3.824802
13 Libyan_Jewish + North_Ossetian + Polish + Sardinian @ 3.836480
14 Chechen + Sardinian + Tunisian_Jewish + Ukrainian_Lviv @ 3.838173
15 Estonian_Polish + Libyan_Jewish + Ossetian + Sardinian @ 3.856717
16 Adygei + Sardinian + Sephardic_Jewish + Ukrainian_Lviv @ 3.861564
17 Georgian + Russian_Smolensk + Sardinian + Sephardic_Jewish @ 3.868139
18 Estonian_Polish + Ossetian + Sardinian + Tunisian_Jewish @ 3.868268
19 North_Ossetian + Polish + Sardinian + Tunisian_Jewish @ 3.870136
20 Adygei + Libyan_Jewish + Polish + Sardinian @ 3.888280



This is your K15 results.


Using 1 population approximation:
1 Greek @ 7.491078
2 Greek_Thessaly @ 9.023689
3 Italian_Abruzzo @ 9.334905
4 Central_Greek @ 9.536962
5 East_Sicilian @ 10.285080
6 Tuscan @ 11.081324
7 Ashkenazi @ 11.196760
8 Bulgarian @ 11.735587
9 West_Sicilian @ 11.956534
10 South_Italian @ 13.073577
11 Romanian @ 14.251962
12 North_Italian @ 16.296253
13 Serbian @ 18.550043
14 Italian_Jewish @ 18.573591
15 Sephardic_Jewish @ 18.726295
16 Algerian_Jewish @ 19.779057
17 Tunisian_Jewish @ 23.518064
18 Turkish @ 23.657410
19 Spanish_Extremadura @ 24.048891
20 Moldavian @ 24.065228

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% Bulgarian +50% East_Sicilian @ 6.402216


Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% Bulgarian +25% Iranian +25% Sardinian @ 4.661234


Using 4 populations approximation:
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ +++
1 Georgian + Polish + Sardinian + Tunisian_Jewish @ 2.869775
2 Algerian_Jewish + Georgian + Polish + Sardinian @ 2.926135
3 Georgian + Polish + Sardinian + Sephardic_Jewish @ 2.927498
4 Adygei + Sardinian + South_Polish + Tunisian_Jewish @ 2.937582
5 Adygei + Croatian + Sardinian + Tunisian_Jewish @ 2.978760
6 Algerian_Jewish + Belorussian + Georgian + Sardinian @ 3.017218
7 Croatian + Kabardin + Sardinian + Tunisian_Jewish @ 3.025660
8 Adygei + Polish + Sardinian + Tunisian_Jewish @ 3.028280
9 Belorussian + Georgian + Sardinian + Sephardic_Jewish @ 3.051937
10 Estonian_Polish + Georgian + Sardinian + Tunisian_Jewish @ 3.056646
11 Croatian + Kumyk + Sardinian + Sephardic_Jewish @ 3.060812
12 Algerian_Jewish + Estonian_Polish + Georgian + Sardinian @ 3.061325
13 Estonian_Polish + Georgian + Sardinian + Sephardic_Jewish @ 3.064752
14 Algerian_Jewish + Georgian + Russian_Smolensk + Sardinian @ 3.070841
15 Adygei + Croatian + Sardinian + Sephardic_Jewish @ 3.074604
16 Adygei + Sardinian + Tunisian_Jewish + Ukrainian_Lviv @ 3.110278
17 Croatian + Kumyk + Sardinian + Tunisian_Jewish @ 3.134186
18 Belorussian + Georgian + Sardinian + Tunisian_Jewish @ 3.145128
19 Chechen + Croatian + Sardinian + Tunisian_Jewish @ 3.172594
20 Georgian + Russian_Smolensk + Sardinian + Sephardic_Jewish @ 3.183599

XXD
11-30-2020, 02:03 PM
Thank you very much! I just ordered my G25, will post them in my original thread.

Regarding my Y chromosome, which is on topic, is it worth testing with FTDNA with Y37, or should I only go for the Big Y (for which I would have to save money for a LONG time). What I want to say is, will I be able to (roughly) determine the affinities of my Y chromosome with a Y37 kit?

Also, given my Y chromosome being downstream from Z2103 and Z2106, which kit would you recommend?

Thanks!

XXD
11-30-2020, 02:06 PM
Taking serious your gedmatch results i think you have moslty mainland Greek roots,with prolly some Greek islander-West Anatolian Greek input.As for your lineage/clade it is very frenquent in balkans.I think you need a deeper testing to understand more about it.


Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 West_Med 22.72
2 East_Med 18.99
3 West_Asian 16.99
4 North_Atlantic 16.86
5 Baltic 14.29
6 Red_Sea 6.42
7 Sub-Saharan 1.39
8 Amerindian 1.30


Finished reading population data. 204 populations found.
13 components mode.

--------------------------------

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 Greek_Thessaly @ 9.565177
2 Central_Greek @ 11.386562
3 Italian_Abruzzo @ 12.123068
4 East_Sicilian @ 12.792544
5 Bulgarian @ 13.843568
6 West_Sicilian @ 14.111320
7 Tuscan @ 15.240873
8 South_Italian @ 15.573442
9 Romanian @ 15.719872
10 Ashkenazi @ 18.204596
11 North_Italian @ 18.790863
12 Serbian @ 20.265820
13 Sephardic_Jewish @ 22.646793
14 Algerian_Jewish @ 22.665009
15 Italian_Jewish @ 23.632925
16 Turkish @ 25.223803
17 Moldavian @ 25.338692
18 Tunisian_Jewish @ 26.597006
19 Libyan_Jewish @ 26.709566
20 Spanish_Extremadura @ 26.798120

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% Bulgarian +50% Central_Greek @ 8.840830


Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% Bulgarian +25% Kumyk +25% Sardinian @ 5.384452


Using 4 populations approximation:
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++
1 Libyan_Jewish + Ossetian + Russian_Smolensk + Sardinian @ 3.645146
2 Ossetian + Russian_Smolensk + Sardinian + Tunisian_Jewish @ 3.663691
3 Libyan_Jewish + North_Ossetian + Sardinian + Ukrainian_Lviv @ 3.710663
4 North_Ossetian + Sardinian + Tunisian_Jewish + Ukrainian_Lviv @ 3.752485
5 Kabardin + Sardinian + Tunisian_Jewish + Ukrainian_Lviv @ 3.758087
6 Adygei + Libyan_Jewish + Sardinian + Ukrainian_Lviv @ 3.758427
7 Adygei + Sardinian + Tunisian_Jewish + Ukrainian_Lviv @ 3.762022
8 Libyan_Jewish + Ossetian + Polish + Sardinian @ 3.778863
9 Bedouin + Ossetian + Polish + Sardinian @ 3.780277
10 Kabardin + Libyan_Jewish + Sardinian + Ukrainian_Lviv @ 3.784759
11 Ossetian + Polish + Sardinian + Tunisian_Jewish @ 3.798422
12 Chechen + Libyan_Jewish + Sardinian + Ukrainian_Lviv @ 3.824802
13 Libyan_Jewish + North_Ossetian + Polish + Sardinian @ 3.836480
14 Chechen + Sardinian + Tunisian_Jewish + Ukrainian_Lviv @ 3.838173
15 Estonian_Polish + Libyan_Jewish + Ossetian + Sardinian @ 3.856717
16 Adygei + Sardinian + Sephardic_Jewish + Ukrainian_Lviv @ 3.861564
17 Georgian + Russian_Smolensk + Sardinian + Sephardic_Jewish @ 3.868139
18 Estonian_Polish + Ossetian + Sardinian + Tunisian_Jewish @ 3.868268
19 North_Ossetian + Polish + Sardinian + Tunisian_Jewish @ 3.870136
20 Adygei + Libyan_Jewish + Polish + Sardinian @ 3.888280



This is your K15 results.


Using 1 population approximation:
1 Greek @ 7.491078
2 Greek_Thessaly @ 9.023689
3 Italian_Abruzzo @ 9.334905
4 Central_Greek @ 9.536962
5 East_Sicilian @ 10.285080
6 Tuscan @ 11.081324
7 Ashkenazi @ 11.196760
8 Bulgarian @ 11.735587
9 West_Sicilian @ 11.956534
10 South_Italian @ 13.073577
11 Romanian @ 14.251962
12 North_Italian @ 16.296253
13 Serbian @ 18.550043
14 Italian_Jewish @ 18.573591
15 Sephardic_Jewish @ 18.726295
16 Algerian_Jewish @ 19.779057
17 Tunisian_Jewish @ 23.518064
18 Turkish @ 23.657410
19 Spanish_Extremadura @ 24.048891
20 Moldavian @ 24.065228

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% Bulgarian +50% East_Sicilian @ 6.402216


Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% Bulgarian +25% Iranian +25% Sardinian @ 4.661234


Using 4 populations approximation:
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ +++
1 Georgian + Polish + Sardinian + Tunisian_Jewish @ 2.869775
2 Algerian_Jewish + Georgian + Polish + Sardinian @ 2.926135
3 Georgian + Polish + Sardinian + Sephardic_Jewish @ 2.927498
4 Adygei + Sardinian + South_Polish + Tunisian_Jewish @ 2.937582
5 Adygei + Croatian + Sardinian + Tunisian_Jewish @ 2.978760
6 Algerian_Jewish + Belorussian + Georgian + Sardinian @ 3.017218
7 Croatian + Kabardin + Sardinian + Tunisian_Jewish @ 3.025660
8 Adygei + Polish + Sardinian + Tunisian_Jewish @ 3.028280
9 Belorussian + Georgian + Sardinian + Sephardic_Jewish @ 3.051937
10 Estonian_Polish + Georgian + Sardinian + Tunisian_Jewish @ 3.056646
11 Croatian + Kumyk + Sardinian + Sephardic_Jewish @ 3.060812
12 Algerian_Jewish + Estonian_Polish + Georgian + Sardinian @ 3.061325
13 Estonian_Polish + Georgian + Sardinian + Sephardic_Jewish @ 3.064752
14 Algerian_Jewish + Georgian + Russian_Smolensk + Sardinian @ 3.070841
15 Adygei + Croatian + Sardinian + Sephardic_Jewish @ 3.074604
16 Adygei + Sardinian + Tunisian_Jewish + Ukrainian_Lviv @ 3.110278
17 Croatian + Kumyk + Sardinian + Tunisian_Jewish @ 3.134186
18 Belorussian + Georgian + Sardinian + Tunisian_Jewish @ 3.145128
19 Chechen + Croatian + Sardinian + Tunisian_Jewish @ 3.172594
20 Georgian + Russian_Smolensk + Sardinian + Sephardic_Jewish @ 3.183599

Based on these results, how much East Asian ancestry would you suggest I have? This will be more apparent with the G25 I guess?

The 25% Kumyk suggests significant a significant Pontic plus East Asian mix?

Johnny ola
11-30-2020, 02:13 PM
Based on these results, how much East Asian ancestry would you suggest I have? This will be more apparent with the G25 I guess?

The 25% Kumyk suggests significant a significant Pontic plus East Asian mix?

Ye,you might have some Cappadocian or Pontic Greek ancestry.It will be easier to check it with G25.I don't think you have any east asian admixture.Such admixtures can estimate better with G25 rather with gedmatch.

rafc
12-01-2020, 07:06 AM
Thank you very much! I just ordered my G25, will post them in my original thread.

Regarding my Y chromosome, which is on topic, is it worth testing with FTDNA with Y37, or should I only go for the Big Y (for which I would have to save money for a LONG time). What I want to say is, will I be able to (roughly) determine the affinities of my Y chromosome with a Y37 kit?

Also, given my Y chromosome being downstream from Z2103 and Z2106, which kit would you recommend?

Thanks!

I would go for 67 rather than 37 if you want meaningful results, even then there is no guarantee. Big Y is better offcourse. How did you test before, an SNP pack?

If you want quick and cheap answers testing SNP's at Yseq is also a a solution. Do you have negatives under CTS9219? This would test a lot of SNP's under CTS9219 for a reasonable price: https://www.yseq.net/product_info.php?cPath=27&products_id=45794

XXD
12-01-2020, 02:18 PM
Ye,you might have some Cappadocian or Pontic Greek ancestry.It will be easier to check it with G25.I don't think you have any east asian admixture.Such admixtures can estimate better with G25 rather with gedmatch.

Thank you so much!

Just posted my G25 here:

https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?21384-Greek-R1b-CTS9219-autosomes-from-23andMe&p=724482#post724482

XXD
12-01-2020, 02:19 PM
I would go for 67 rather than 37 if you want meaningful results, even then there is no guarantee. Big Y is better offcourse. How did you test before, an SNP pack?

If you want quick and cheap answers testing SNP's at Yseq is also a a solution. Do you have negatives under CTS9219? This would test a lot of SNP's under CTS9219 for a reasonable price: https://www.yseq.net/product_info.php?cPath=27&products_id=45794

Thank you so much for your insightful info! No, I only got my Y chromosome results in 23andme, and it only says CTS9219...

XXD
12-04-2020, 08:36 PM
I would go for 67 rather than 37 if you want meaningful results, even then there is no guarantee. Big Y is better offcourse. How did you test before, an SNP pack?

If you want quick and cheap answers testing SNP's at Yseq is also a a solution. Do you have negatives under CTS9219? This would test a lot of SNP's under CTS9219 for a reasonable price: https://www.yseq.net/product_info.php?cPath=27&products_id=45794

I decided I really want to explore my Y chromosome roots further. I will try to order in the coming weeks the FTDNA 67 package, and will post my results here when available. Given that my paternal origin is from 17th century Chios, and a likely deeper origin from Pontus, the results might be interesting.

XXD
12-04-2020, 08:38 PM
If you think Yseq could also give me answers I could do that instead (better from my budget). I currently only have CTS9219, without any further SNP's. This is all that 23andme provided me with...My primary objective is to see, if possible, with which population groups my Y chromosome is associated with e.g. Balkans/Albania, or something more exotic.

ADW_1981
12-07-2020, 05:08 AM
If you think Yseq could also give me answers I could do that instead (better from my budget). I currently only have CTS9219, without any further SNP's. This is all that 23andme provided me with...My primary objective is to see, if possible, with which population groups my Y chromosome is associated with e.g. Balkans/Albania, or something more exotic.

I can confirm your Y line is not Basque, if that's why it's in the sig, not sure.

Jatt1
12-07-2020, 06:30 AM
I decided I really want to explore my Y chromosome roots further. I will try to order in the coming weeks the FTDNA 67 package, and will post my results here when available. Given that my paternal origin is from 17th century Chios, and a likely deeper origin from Pontus, the results might be interesting.

Why FTDNA 67 package, just order Big Y 700, and if it is too expensive for you then buy WGS 30X, it will also give you your mtDNA at https://nebula.org/whole-genome-sequencing/

XXD
12-07-2020, 01:07 PM
I can confirm your Y line is not Basque, if that's why it's in the sig, not sure.

Haha thanks but I included the Basque flag because my other half is from there :p

I read that CTS9219 is more commonly found in Slavic people - so it could be from them?

XXD
12-07-2020, 01:10 PM
Why FTDNA 67 package, just order Big Y 700, and if it is too expensive for you then buy WGS 30X, it will also give you your mtDNA at https://nebula.org/whole-genome-sequencing/

So you mean I can use WGS 30X as an alternative to FTDNA? And it will give me Y chromosome results of similar accuracy to FTDNA?

Mis
12-07-2020, 01:19 PM
There is only one rope R1b-CTS9219 at the Slavs https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y14300/

Mis
12-07-2020, 03:04 PM
@XXD
Can show distance to Avar Av1 and Av2
My
0.02522712 HUN_Avar_Szolad: Av1
0.04017612 HUN_Avar_Szolad: Av2

Jatt1
12-07-2020, 03:24 PM
So you mean I can use WGS 30X as an alternative to FTDNA? And it will give me Y chromosome results of similar accuracy to FTDNA?

Yes, it will. You will also get mtDNA and autosomal DNA and you can check your data for genetic dispositions at certain other places for medical concerns.

But you cannot take your results and post it on FTDNA.

But you can take your results to https://www.yfull.com, R1b Big Tree http://www.ytree.net/ , and https://ydna-warehouse.org/

XXD
12-07-2020, 05:35 PM
Yes, it will. You will also get mtDNA and autosomal DNA and you can check your data for genetic dispositions at certain other places for medical concerns.

But you cannot take your results and post it on FTDNA.

But you can take your results to https://www.yfull.com, R1b Big Tree http://www.ytree.net/ , and https://ydna-warehouse.org/

Thank you very much for these insights! Which ones has more Balkan samples, Yfull or FTDNA ?

broder
12-07-2020, 05:44 PM
If you think Yseq could also give me answers I could do that instead (better from my budget). I currently only have CTS9219, without any further SNP's. This is all that 23andme provided me with...My primary objective is to see, if possible, with which population groups my Y chromosome is associated with e.g. Balkans/Albania, or something more exotic.

If money is tight and you can't go for a WGS, better go for the YSEQ option than Y67 at FTDNA. Also I would get the Alpha panel as well combined with the SNP panel:
http://www.yseq.net/product_info.php?products_id=32
https://www.yseq.net/product_info.php?cPath=27&products_id=45794

XXD
12-07-2020, 05:52 PM
If money is tight and you can't go for a WGS, better go for the YSEQ option than Y67 at FTDNA. Also I would get the Alpha panel as well combined with the SNP panel:
http://www.yseq.net/product_info.php?products_id=32
https://www.yseq.net/product_info.php?cPath=27&products_id=45794

Thank you very much mate, really appreciate it! I think I will go for the option you suggested. Would you be so kind to explain why I should combine both tests?

Silesian
12-11-2020, 11:21 PM
There is only one rope R1b-CTS9219 at the Slavs https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y14300/

Mis' line<branching-=14300- Corded Ware? Or maybe even Single Grave Culture? Very interesting:)

Jatt1
12-15-2020, 03:32 AM
Thank you very much for these insights! Which ones has more Balkan samples, Yfull or FTDNA ?

FTDNA would have more of them. If you go for YSEQ SNPS panel they will place you on YFull and you can take your data to
https://www.ytree.net/ and https://ydna-warehouse.org/ also.

TigerMW
12-15-2020, 04:51 AM
Which ones has more Balkan samples, Yfull or FTDNA ?

FTDNA would have more of them. If you go for YSEQ SNPS panel they will place you on YFull and you can take your data to
https://www.ytree.net/ and https://ydna-warehouse.org/ also.

It's not even close, FTDNA's tree is much larger than either YFull's or the Big Tree/Y Data Warehouse. The Big Tree is built on years of R1b-P312 and then U106. Z2103 is just getting started.

You have to decide if you want lowest cost or the best tree and most genetic genealogy support.

If you really want WGS, you can get Nebula's since FTDNA will import their data (and get on the FTDNA tree and matching). You can also send your data to YFull and the Big Tree as well from Nebula's WGS.

Jatt1
12-15-2020, 08:15 AM
It's not even close, FTDNA's tree is much larger than either YFull's or the Big Tree/Y Data Warehouse. The Big Tree is built on years of R1b-P312 and then U106. Z2103 is just getting started.

You have to decide if you want lowest cost or the best tree and most genetic genealogy support.

If you really want WGS, you can get Nebula's since FTDNA will import their data (and get on the FTDNA tree and matching). You can also send your data to YFull and the Big Tree as well from Nebula's WGS.

Is there already a deal between Nabula Genomics and FTDNA? How much does the FTDNA part of the services cost?

alan
12-15-2020, 11:09 AM
So, to the complete layman, what other areas/peoples have similar types of Z2103 to the Greeks?

dosas
12-15-2020, 11:26 AM
Some heatmaps from that website's feature, parent Z2103 and downstreams Z2106 and L584:

41740

41741

41742

davit
12-15-2020, 11:29 AM
Some heatmaps from that website's feature, parent Z2103 and downstreams Z2106 and L584:

41740

41741

41742

So Asia has hotspots in West Asia, Central Asia, India and China but not the Tarim Basin? Interesting. What explains the Indian and Chinese hotspots?

Coldmountains
12-15-2020, 11:38 AM
So Asia has hotspots in West Asia, Central Asia, India and China but not the Tarim Basin? Interesting. What explains the Indian and Chinese hotspots?

All these heatmaps look nice but pretty much are meaningless because they are based on current sampling and many groups rich in Z2103 in Asia (Iranians, Tajiks, Central Asians,..) are for now almost unsampled but other groups especially from Europe are extremely overrepresented

Alain
12-15-2020, 11:59 AM
A bit surprised high percentage in the Phillipines, is that maybe because it was once a Spanish colony? But only 1% of the population of today's Phillipines is of Spanish origin

alan
12-15-2020, 02:08 PM
All heatmaps are going to have a bias to the isles and the Rhineland zone of Germany as those are the biggest take off points of major European immigration to North America. They can be very misleading. When Rich Stephens along with my encouragment were testing (and a little bit of funding) continental L21, the Rhineland quickly lit up as the biggest L21 hotspot in Europe, along with (not unexpected) NW France. The Basque area on the French border was the only part of Iberia with a significant amount. However, in reality the Rhineland has not got that much L21. Seems that the Lower Rhine has more. In summary, heatmaps dont tell us anything much about the past and even in terms of the present they are misleading

XXD
12-15-2020, 03:40 PM
Some heatmaps from that website's feature, parent Z2103 and downstreams Z2106 and L584:

41740

41741

41742

Thank you for posting this. Based on my surname, my distant paternal origin is from Pontic Greeks, who probably emigrated to Chios (assuming non paternity events did not take place). This would make sense, as it seems that quite a few Pontic Greeks are downstream of Z2103. Any ideas which populations may have contributed Z2103 to Pontus?

On the other hand, Chios was heavily populated by the Genovese, who formed 17% of the population, and CTS2919 seems to have a strong presence in North Italy. Furthermore, some of my predicted distant relatives on 23andme, who also happen to have CTS2919 all come from Italian occupied islands (Corfu, Cephallonia), which makes me think it could be an Italian marker.

Anyway, I am sure all of this is speculative until I test. My marker seems to be quite poorly tested, although it seems to be present in quite a few NorthEastern populations, likely indicating an origin with the barbaric invasions (and then subsequently spread by the nations they evolved into e.g. Genoese, Venetians).

dosas
12-15-2020, 03:56 PM
Thank you for posting this. Based on my surname, my distant paternal origin is from Pontic Greeks, who probably emigrated to Chios (assuming non paternity events did not take place). This would make sense, as it seems that quite a few Pontic Greeks are downstream of Z2103. Any ideas which populations may have contributed Z2103 to Pontus?

On the other hand, Chios was heavily populated by the Genovese, who formed 17% of the population, and CTS2919 seems to have a strong presence in North Italy. Furthermore, some of my predicted distant relatives on 23andme, who also happen to have CTS2919 all come from Italian occupied islands (Corfu, Cephallonia), which makes me think it could be an Italian marker.

Anyway, I am sure all of this is speculative until I test. My marker seems to be quite poorly tested, although it seems to be present in quite a few NorthEastern populations, likely indicating an origin with the barbaric invasions (and then subsequently spread by the nations they evolved into e.g. Genoese, Venetians).


I am not sure what you mean when you ask which populations contributed to the Z2103 Pontic Greeks. Z2103 is a Yamnaya marker and can be found all over Asia Minor, Armenia, Iran, and even the Levant, so the geographical proximity is logical.

rafc
12-15-2020, 03:57 PM
So, to the complete layman, what other areas/peoples have similar types of Z2103 to the Greeks?

The problem with that question is that no-one knows what type of Z2103 the Greeks have :-)

I know two cases, but not sure of they are representative:
-This guy (https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?16626-My-Big-Y700-results-from-FTDNA-Northern-Greek) is A12332, branch that also shows up in Armenia, Bulgaria, the Caucasus and Albania. On the other hand he reported he had probable Arvanite/Aromanian roots, so this likely doesn't represent and 'ancient' Greek clade.
-Then there is also a Greek under Y82752, closest matches are a Lebanese and a Swiss, quite recently.

So that's not a lot to track comparable samples. Anyone knows others?

Edit: apparently there are also two Greeks here, but not NGS tested: https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-M12135/

XXD
12-15-2020, 03:57 PM
It's not even close, FTDNA's tree is much larger than either YFull's or the Big Tree/Y Data Warehouse. The Big Tree is built on years of R1b-P312 and then U106. Z2103 is just getting started.

You have to decide if you want lowest cost or the best tree and most genetic genealogy support.

If you really want WGS, you can get Nebula's since FTDNA will import their data (and get on the FTDNA tree and matching). You can also send your data to YFull and the Big Tree as well from Nebula's WGS.

Thank you very much for this answer. I want to get as close of an answer as possible regarding the origins of my Y line, even if I have to save for a while. I just want to do it right, if I am to make a considerable investment.

XXD
12-15-2020, 03:59 PM
I am not sure what you mean when you ask which populations contributed to the Z2103 Pontic Greeks. Z2103 is a Yamnaya marker and can be found all over Asia Minor, Armenia, Iran, and even the Levant, so the geographical proximity is logical.

Yes, of course. I should have formulated my question more clearly. I mean, are there particular (post Yamnaya) cultures/ethnic groups (ancient or modern) that we associate with the spread of this particular marker?

Johnny ola
12-15-2020, 04:05 PM
Yes, of course. I should have formulated my question more clearly. I mean, are there particular (post Yamnaya) cultures/ethnic groups (ancient or modern) that we associate with the spread of this particular marker?

Anatolians or Greeks In the case of Pontics.

dosas
12-15-2020, 04:07 PM
The problem with that question is that no-one knows what type of Z2103 the Greeks have :-)

I know two cases, but not sure of they are representative:
-This guy (https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?16626-My-Big-Y700-results-from-FTDNA-Northern-Greek) is A12332, branch that also shows up in Armenia, Bulgaria, the Caucasus and Albania. On the other hand he reported he had probable Arvanite/Aromanian roots, so this likely doesn't represent and 'ancient' Greek clade.
-Then there is also a Greek under Y82752, closest matches are a Lebanese and a Swiss, quite recently.

So that's not a lot to track comparable samples. Anyone knows others?

Edit: apparently there are also two Greeks here, but not NGS tested: https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-M12135/


That's me, but you might want to check post #4 in this thread for the latest update of the info I have on Y155609.

XXD
12-15-2020, 04:28 PM
Anatolians or Greeks In the case of Pontics.

Thank you very much!

rafc
12-15-2020, 04:44 PM
That's me, but you might want to check post #4 in this thread for the latest update of the info I have on Y155609.

Ah interesting, indeed for all the samples I mentioned it's fairly possible that they have Armenian roots instead of Greek. I would not be surprised that the M12135 samples are locals from the Pontic region that were Hellenized.

alan
12-15-2020, 10:19 PM
The problem with that question is that no-one knows what type of Z2103 the Greeks have :-)

I know two cases, but not sure of they are representative:
-This guy (https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?16626-My-Big-Y700-results-from-FTDNA-Northern-Greek) is A12332, branch that also shows up in Armenia, Bulgaria, the Caucasus and Albania. On the other hand he reported he had probable Arvanite/Aromanian roots, so this likely doesn't represent and 'ancient' Greek clade.
-Then there is also a Greek under Y82752, closest matches are a Lebanese and a Swiss, quite recently.

So that's not a lot to track comparable samples. Anyone knows others?

Edit: apparently there are also two Greeks here, but not NGS tested: https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-M12135/

Need a Greek multimillionaire to fund deep clade testing of a couple of hundred Greek Z2103s.

alan
12-15-2020, 10:22 PM
OK so we cant get anywhere in terms of Greek Z2103 subclades. What about distribution of Z2103 as a whole in Greece and Greek areas? Is there a pattern?

XXD
12-23-2020, 09:26 PM
In the Yseq Y predictor, my haplogroup is listed as CTS9219 (CTS1550) (agrees with my 23andme classification), and I am negative for BY250:

41923

The distribution of this lineage seems to have a Balkan/Albanian focus, as shown previously:

41924

Perhaps it might be best to test under BY251?

https://www.yseq.net/product_info.php?products_id=4971

broder
12-24-2020, 12:17 AM
No, you are BY250- so no need to test for it. 23andme does test BY250. You most likely are under BY611>Z2705. Probably distant Albanian ancestry on the paternal side. Get that SNP pack and the Alpha panel. STR profile would be useful to classify you better, for finding closer matches etc.

XXD
12-27-2020, 08:08 PM
I think I will do what you suggest! I think based on my paternal ancestry (Greek from Pontus), an Albanian origin is unlikely. The are some Pontics downstream of Z2103.

I guess I'll test in the next few weeks and post my results!

XXD
12-30-2020, 11:26 AM
Update: I just ordered an FTDNA Y 111 kit. I think I will be one of the very few (or the first) Chian/Pontic Greeks to have done a detailed analysis on R1b CTS9219.

Should I also order in the future the Yseq test as well, or do you think FTDNA Y 111 will do the job?

I will post my results when I have them, and I will upload them on Y full as well.

Johnny ola
12-30-2020, 11:32 AM
Update: I just ordered an FTDNA Y 111 kit. I think I will be one of the very few (or the first) Chian/Pontic Greeks to have done a detailed analysis on R1b CTS9219.

Should I also order in the future the Yseq test as well, or do you think FTDNA Y 111 will do the job?

I will post my results when I have them, and I will upload them on Y full as well.



Z2103 in Trabzon is somewhere 7%.Do you have ancestry from there?

XXD
12-30-2020, 12:21 PM
My paternal origin is from Tholopotami, Chios. However, since my original surname is Βαφειάδης, a Pontic origin is suspected. As you told me, it was quite common around Kastanomu.


Apparently there were quite a few Pontic families who emigrated to Chios, such as the Gavrades. Possibly my paternal ancestor followed.

Otherwise, a Genoese may have raped a Chian girl in the distant past. I see CTS2919 is quite common in pockets close to Genoa and Venice.

So I will be interested to know under which subclade I am under.

I of course hope it is something Greek/Anatolian/Balkan.

Johnny ola
12-30-2020, 03:48 PM
My paternal origin is from Tholopotami, Chios. However, since my original surname is Βαφειάδης, a Pontic origin is suspected. As you told me, it was quite common around Kastanomu.


Apparently there were quite a few Pontic families who emigrated to Chios, such as the Gavrades. Possibly my paternal ancestor followed.

Otherwise, a Genoese may have raped a Chian girl in the distant past. I see CTS2919 is quite common in pockets close to Genoa and Venice.

So I will be interested to know under which subclade I am under.

I of course hope it is something Greek/Anatolian/Balkan.


I see.Yes many Pontic Greeks arrived even after the collapse of the empire of Trebizond to islands,mainland Greece,Cyprus and even to Italy.But the big migration took place at 20s.You might be one of these people.Your surname is very common in northern Greece.

I hope you don't have any relation with that man :\:)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Markos_Vafeiadis

XXD
12-30-2020, 03:53 PM
I see.Yes many Pontic Greeks arrived even after the collapse of the empire of Trebizond to islands,mainland Greece,Cyprus and even to Italy.But the big migration took place at 20s.You might be one of these people.Your surname is very common in northern Greece.

I hope you don't have any relation with that man :\:)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Markos_Vafeiadis

My ancestors were in Chios at least since 1820, so no relation with that man :p

Markos
12-30-2020, 03:55 PM
I see.Yes many Pontic Greeks arrived even after the collapse of the empire of Trebizond to islands,mainland Greece,Cyprus and even to Italy.But the big migration took place at 20s.You might be one of these people.Your surname is very common in northern Greece.

Could his surname just be Thracian origin? I thought I remember his autosomal results being heavily Thracian-like.

Johnny ola
12-30-2020, 03:57 PM
Could his surname just be Thracian origin? I thought I remember his autosomal results being heavily Thracian-like.

Υes his autosomal is very balkan shifted.I suspect something from Poli or Thrace with the rest being west asian(Cappadocian,Pontic or Greek islander etc).

XXD
12-30-2020, 04:04 PM
My mother is 50% Arcadian and 50% Cretan. My father is a Greek from Constantinople, with ancestors from Nigde, Canakkale and Crimaea (Urums). We know that my paternal ancestors came to Constantinople from Chios in 1890.

You can see my ancestry in my signature. In G25 I plot with south shifted Thessalians and north shifted Peloponnesians, although I would not focus on that; I have seen friends with 37% Avar Szolad plotting considerably more southern than me.

Johnny ola
12-30-2020, 04:08 PM
My mother is 50% Arcadian and 50% Cretan. My father is a Greek from Constantinople, with ancestors from Nigde, Canakkale and Crimaea (Urums). We know that my paternal ancestors came to Constantinople from Chios in 1890.

You can see my ancestry in my signature. In G25 I plot with south shifted Thessalians and north shifted Peloponnesians, although I would not focus on that; I have seen friends with 37% Avar Szolad plotting considerably more southern than me.

Υou need to test your father IMO.The peloponnese and cretan genetics are well known.It would be better to buy a kit for him in the future.

XXD
12-30-2020, 04:30 PM
Υou need to test your father IMO.The peloponnese and cretan genetics are well known.It would be better to buy a kit for him in the future.

Never occurred to me to do that actually, given that he is from so many regions of Asia Minor. I thought he is too mixed to be informative for any particular population.

I will do that. Shall I just go for 23andme (and then get G25)?

I expect that he will be quite Northern shifted, and with significantly more Kura Araxes and East Asian than me. He looks nearly identical to Erdogan (who also has a lot of Pontic ancestry apparently). Thank goodness the Arcadian and Cretan genes watered down this appearance in me :P

I have reconstructed most my paternal family tree from 1890. With the exception of a Chian great‐great‐great‐grandfather and a great‐grandmother (undetermined region of Northern Greece), none of my other ancestors were from Greece. At least in the last 110 years.

What makes me wonder is the fairly low Avar/Slavic score I have, given the origins of my parents.

Anyway, I do not want to derail the thread with my autosomal ancestry. I will post my FTDNA results the moment I get them.

Johnny ola
12-30-2020, 06:18 PM
Never occurred to me to do that actually, given that he is from so many regions of Asia Minor. I thought he is too mixed to be informative for any particular population.

I will do that. Shall I just go for 23andme (and then get G25)?

I expect that he will be quite Northern shifted, and with significantly more Kura Araxes and East Asian than me. He looks nearly identical to Erdogan (who also has a lot of Pontic ancestry apparently). Thank goodness the Arcadian and Cretan genes watered down this appearance in me :P

I have reconstructed most my paternal family tree from 1890. With the exception of a Chian great‐great‐great‐grandfather and a great‐grandmother (undetermined region of Northern Greece), none of my other ancestors were from Greece. At least in the last 110 years.

What makes me wonder is the fairly low Avar/Slavic score I have, given the origins of my parents.

Anyway, I do not want to derail the thread with my autosomal ancestry. I will post my FTDNA results the moment I get them.


Well,my honest opinion is that you don't have anything related to Pontic Greeks.At least your autosomal does not indicate such a thing.West asian admixture can be found in Greek islanders,Poli Greeks,Cappadocians and even to Thracian Greeks.Using Kura-Araxes does not mean much.First of all this culture never reached western caucasus.Colchians-Kartvelians have darkveti-Mesoko and Dolmen like DNA(rich in CHG).Kura-Araxes is a mixed culture with very high ANF proportions.Besides that it never reached or it had an impact in Colchis.As for your east asian is prolly coming from your thracian-poli side.We have seen some Thracians and Poli Greeks scoring some limited east asian.

Dorian9
12-30-2020, 06:26 PM
Since Vafiades describes profession it wouldn't surprise me If it's a Hellenized version of its Turkish word meaning it comes from "Bogiatzis" ,interesting thing is that Bogiatzis is most common in a Chios village 2km away from xxd's https://apps.vrisko.gr/apo-pou-krataei-i-skoufia-sou/%ce%bc%cf%80%ce%bf%ce%b3%ce%b9%ce%b1%cf%84%ce%b6%c e%b7%cf%82

Johnny ola
12-30-2020, 06:32 PM
Since Vafiades describes profession it wouldn't surprise me If it's a Hellenized version of its Turkish word meaning it comes from "Bogiatzis" ,interesting thing is that Bogiatzis is most common in a Chios village 2km away from xxd's https://apps.vrisko.gr/apo-pou-krataei-i-skoufia-sou/%ce%bc%cf%80%ce%bf%ce%b3%ce%b9%ce%b1%cf%84%ce%b6%c e%b7%cf%82

Μight be this case.I don't think he is Pontic Greek,his autosomal is completely different.Prolly thracian or mikrasiatis.

broder
12-30-2020, 06:55 PM
I think I will do what you suggest! I think based on my paternal ancestry (Greek from Pontus), an Albanian origin is unlikely. The are some Pontics downstream of Z2103.

I guess I'll test in the next few weeks and post my results!

CTS9219 is a predominantly European subclade. Chances of you being CTS9219*, FT61900 or Y5587 I think are pretty low considering you're Greek. The most likely scenario is Z2705.

There are even Smyrna Greeks, four in total, from this (https://bmcevolbiol.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1471-2148-11-69) study that belong to this subclade.

Johnny ola
12-30-2020, 07:04 PM
CTS9219 is a predominantly European subclade. Chances of you being CTS9219*, FT61900 or Y5587 I think are pretty low considering you're Greek. The most likely scenario is Z2705.

There are even Smyrna Greeks, four in total, from this (https://bmcevolbiol.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1471-2148-11-69) study that belong to this subclade.

Τhat gives possibilities for albanian(arvanite/vlach) or bulgarian-slavic roots?Smyrna Greeks have mainland origins as well.They are people who migrated there during Ottoman times for better opportunities.

XXD
12-30-2020, 07:18 PM
Μight be this case.I don't think he is Pontic Greek,his autosomal is completely different.Prolly thracian or mikrasiatis.

But if my last full Pontic ancestor lived before 1820, then I would obviously not have any of his autosomes.

XXD
12-30-2020, 07:21 PM
Well,my honest opinion is that you don't have anything related to Pontic Greeks.At least your autosomal does not indicate such a thing.West asian admixture can be found in Greek islanders,Poli Greeks,Cappadocians and even to Thracian Greeks.Using Kura-Araxes does not mean much.First of all this culture never reached western caucasus.Colchians-Kartvelians have darkveti-Mesoko and Dolmen like DNA(rich in CHG).Kura-Araxes is a mixed culture with very high ANF proportions.Besides that it never reached or it had an impact in Colchis.As for your east asian is prolly coming from your thracian-poli side.We have seen some Thracians and Poli Greeks scoring some limited east asian.

My East Asian almost certainly comes from my Urum great grandmother.

It seems that Iran Haji Firuz is a better fit instead of Kura Araxes in my ancestry. Any ideas why?

Johnny ola
12-30-2020, 07:23 PM
But if my last full Pontic ancestor lived before 1820, then I would obviously not have any if his autosomes.

Your autosomal is between mainland Greeks and Greek islanders/Asia minor Greeks.Where exactly have you seen your results indicate anything related with Pontic Greeks?You are 'decent' west asian admixed simply because you have ancestry from islands and asia minor.Pontic Greeks have nothing to do with such results.Surnames do not mean much.As for your clade it is prolly coming from an Arvanite/Vlach individual IMO.

Johnny ola
12-30-2020, 07:27 PM
My East Asian almost certainly comes from my Urum great grandmother.

It seems that Iran Haji Firuz is a better fit instead of Kura Araxes in my ancestry. Any ideas why?


East Asian input can be coming from anywhere.There are Greeks(even in this forum) scoring some of it,it is hard to say where exactly it is coming from.The point is your autosomal have nothing to do with 'easternpontic' genetics.

XXD
12-30-2020, 07:53 PM
Your autosomal is between mainland Greeks and Greek islanders/Asia minor Greeks.Where exactly have you seen your results indicate anything related with Pontic Greeks?You are 'decent' west asian admixed simply because you have ancestry from islands and asia minor.Pontic Greeks have nothing to do with such results.Surnames do not mean much.As for your clade it is prolly coming from an Arvanite/Vlach individual IMO.

I don't disagree with anything you say. In fact, you were the first to make a connection with Pontus, as you said that Vafeiadis is "an uber Pontic surname".

The point I am trying to make is that I know for a fact that my earliest ancestor was a Stavros Vafeiadis in Tholopotami in 1820. I don't know anything about his background. Even if he was a full Pontic Greek, after 180 years of intermarrying with non Pontics, there would be no autosomal trace of any Pontic genetics.

So I am not sure why you are making an issue of my non Pontic autosomes. Even if I was from a well known Pontic family (e.g. Gavras) who emigrated to Chios more than 500 years ago, I would have zero Pontic autosomes.

What I am trying to achieve by testing with FTDNA Y 111 is to try to determine the possible ethnic group or geographical region which my Y line originated. I am not biased for or against any ethnic group, I just want to get as close to the truth as possible.

As it was stated earlier in this thread, my line is not of the Slavic branch. My branch has been found more in Albanians and some Caucasians.

Johnny ola
12-30-2020, 07:57 PM
I don't disagree with anything you say. In fact, you were the first to make a connection with Pontus, as you said that Vafeiadis is "an uber Pontic surname".

The point I am trying to make is that I know for a fact that my earliest ancestor was a Stavros Vafeiadis in Tholopotami in 1820. I don't know anything about his background. Even if he was a full Pontic Greek, after 180 years of intermarrying with non Pontics, there would be no autosomal trace of any Pontic genetics.

So I am not sure why you are making an issue of my non Pontic autosomes. Even if I was from a well known Pontic family (e.g. Gavras) who emigrated to Chios more than 500 years ago, I would have zero Pontic autosomes.

What I am trying to achieve by testing with FTDNA Y 111 is to try to determine the possible ethnic group or geographical region which my Y line originated. I am not biased for or against any ethnic group, I just want to get as close to the truth as possible.

As it was stated earlier in this thread, my line is not of the Slavic branch. My branch has been found more in Albanians and some Caucasians.

Well,your surname it is indeed Pontic but who gives attention to surnames and related stuff when you have autosomal DNA and yDNA to mess around?I really doubt you have anything related with Pontic Greeks but ofc i might be wrong on it.The only thing you have to do is to test your parents and more specific your father.You might a have very small ancestry from Pontic Greeks but it looks really tiny in your DNA.

XXD
12-30-2020, 08:19 PM
Well,your surname it is indeed Pontic but who gives attention to surnames and related stuff when you have autosomal DNA and yDNA to mess around?I really doubt you have anything related with Pontic Greeks but ofc i might be wrong on it.The only thing you have to do is to test your parents and more specific your father.You might a have very small ancestry from Pontic Greeks but it looks really tiny in your DNA.

I will test my father in due course. I guess we will only know when I get my FTDNA results.

Johnny ola
12-30-2020, 08:37 PM
I will test my father in due course. I guess we will only know when I get my FTDNA results.

You will make the right choise.I am going to test my grandma and grandpa when this nightmare with covid come to an end.

broder
12-31-2020, 03:43 PM
Τhat gives possibilities for albanian(arvanite/vlach) or bulgarian-slavic roots?Smyrna Greeks have mainland origins as well.They are people who migrated there during Ottoman times for better opportunities.

If he is Z2705 like I am guessing, then most probably Albanian/Arvanit. Vlahs don't carry much this cluster except for few rare cases, like some Aromanian from Albania that are under this (https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-BY147912/) subclade.

Greekscholar
12-31-2020, 05:36 PM
Never occurred to me to do that actually, given that he is from so many regions of Asia Minor. I thought he is too mixed to be informative for any particular population.

I will do that. Shall I just go for 23andme (and then get G25)?

I expect that he will be quite Northern shifted, and with significantly more Kura Araxes and East Asian than me. He looks nearly identical to Erdogan (who also has a lot of Pontic ancestry apparently). Thank goodness the Arcadian and Cretan genes watered down this appearance in me :P

I have reconstructed most my paternal family tree from 1890. With the exception of a Chian great‐great‐great‐grandfather and a great‐grandmother (undetermined region of Northern Greece), none of my other ancestors were from Greece. At least in the last 110 years.

What makes me wonder is the fairly low Avar/Slavic score I have, given the origins of my parents.

Anyway, I do not want to derail the thread with my autosomal ancestry. I will post my FTDNA results the moment I get them.

Your male line sounds like Chiote history to me. Of course, the 1820s saw the massacre of most of the population followed by Ottoman efforts to repopulate. By the 1890s Chios was a shipping center. Do you know if your ancestor moved to Constantiople for business reasons, was he in shipping?

To your point, a person arriving on Chios the 1820s could be from anywhere in the Greek world. It is similar for most NE Aegean islands, they have been depopulated and repopulated in the genealogical timeframe, recent enough that some of us know where our ancestors lived (or at least have family stories) before the island was repopulated. It is the same for Fourni and my family. Likewise, I think my mom is the only "ancestor" I have who was born in the Greek State. All of my dad's side left Fourni/Ikaria when the islands were Ottoman possessions, and my mom's family lived on Fourni under Italian rule until after WWII.

XXD
12-31-2020, 06:29 PM
If he is Z2705 like I am guessing, then most probably Albanian/Arvanit. Vlahs don't carry much this cluster except for few rare cases, like some Aromanian from Albania that are under this (https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-BY147912/) subclade.
Very interesting, cheers! Lets hope I have this line and not the Slavic one. I know I am negative for BY250.

Is there no possibility it existed in Greeks/Anatolians? It could have also existed in ancient Macedonians, Thessalians and Epirotans, who seem to have been Illyrian/Thracian admixed.

XXD
12-31-2020, 06:34 PM
Your male line sounds like Chiote history to me. Of course, the 1820s saw the massacre of most of the population followed by Ottoman efforts to repopulate. By the 1890s Chios was a shipping center. Do you know if your ancestor moved to Constantiople for business reasons, was he in shipping?

To your point, a person arriving on Chios the 1820s could be from anywhere in the Greek world. It is similar for most NE Aegean islands, they have been depopulated and repopulated in the genealogical timeframe, recent enough that some of us know where our ancestors lived (or at least have family stories) before the island was repopulated. It is the same for Fourni and my family. Likewise, I think my mom is the only "ancestor" I have who was born in the Greek State. All of my dad's side left Fourni/Ikaria when the islands were Ottoman possessions, and my mom's family lived on Fourni under Italian rule until after WWII.

I do not know if my ancestor came to Chios in 1820. I mentioned him only because he is the earliest paternal ancestor I know of. His ancestors could have been native to the island for generations, or not.

I know his grandson left for Istanbul in 1890 for business.

Johnny ola
12-31-2020, 07:46 PM
Very interesting, cheers! Lets hope I have this line and not the Slavic one. I know I am negative for BY250.

Is there no possibility it existed in Greeks/Anatolians? It could have also existed in ancient Macedonians, Thessalians and Epirotans, who seem to have been Illyrian/Thracian admixed.

If its Albanian then it is illyrian or Thracian or Some kind of paleobalkan tribe!!!

Kelmendasi
12-31-2020, 08:34 PM
Very interesting, cheers! Lets hope I have this line and not the Slavic one. I know I am negative for BY250.

Is there no possibility it existed in Greeks/Anatolians? It could have also existed in ancient Macedonians, Thessalians and Epirotans, who seem to have been Illyrian/Thracian admixed.
The TMRCA for R1b-Z2705 is ~1,500 ybp give or take, so the common ancestor for all modern day carriers lived sometime during the beginning of the Early Middle Ages. The lineage itself is for the most part associated with the expansion of Albanian-speakers and the time frame of the TMRCA would correspond to the Late Proto-Albanian and the beginning of the Old Albanian linguistic stages (both based on the definitions of Ranko Matasović).

The more distant origin of this cluster however is certainly linked to one of the Paleo-Balkan groups, with most evidence pointing towards a wider Illyrian association which includes the Dardanians. Though some have theorized Paeonian or Thracian (including Daco-Mysian) origins.

Greekscholar
12-31-2020, 10:00 PM
I do not know if my ancestor came to Chios in 1820. I mentioned him only because he is the earliest paternal ancestor I know of. His ancestors could have been native to the island for generations, or not.

I know his grandson left for Istanbul in 1890 for business.

Interesting. To be a Chiote in the 1820s means being a survivor of the massacre, or a part of the repopulation effort. Hopefully your Y-test helps narrow down his deeper origins.

XXD
01-01-2021, 03:11 AM
The TMRCA for R1b-Z2705 is ~1,500 ybp give or take, so the common ancestor for all modern day carriers lived sometime during the beginning of the Early Middle Ages. The lineage itself is for the most part associated with the expansion of Albanian-speakers and the time frame of the TMRCA would correspond to the Late Proto-Albanian and the beginning of the Old Albanian linguistic stages (both based on the definitions of Ranko Matasović).

The more distant origin of this cluster however is certainly linked to one of the Paleo-Balkan groups, with most evidence pointing towards a wider Illyrian association which includes the Dardanians. Though some have theorized Paeonian or Thracian (including Daco-Mysian) origins.

Thank you for your excellent explanation. I hope I have this one and not the slavic branch!

Johnny ola
01-01-2021, 03:20 AM
Thank you for your excellent explanation. I hope I have this one and not the slavic branch!

But you have Slavic dna In your autosomal Witch has a stronger impact than your ydna lineage. xD :)

Kelmendasi
01-01-2021, 03:53 AM
Thank you for your excellent explanation. I hope I have this one and not the slavic branch!
No problem. I think you should be proud of your haplogroup whatever cluster it turns out that you belong to, each has its own unique history that will tell an interesting story about your paternal ancestry.

XXD
01-01-2021, 10:43 AM
Thank you Johnny and Kelmendasi for your comments. Yes, I absolutely agree with what you guys are saying.

I think we all share a passion about uncovering our genetic ancestry, and we seek the truth above all else. I think many male AG users have a bit of an irrational, romantic connection with their Y chromosome (me included), even though its just 1% of their genome, and does not contribute much to their phenotype.

I am passionate about the history and demographic processes of Mediterranean populations, and its just I don't have much of a connection with Slavic cultures, that's all. So on a personal level, it would be quite cool if I had a Y line associated with palaeoBalkanic, Caucasus or Levant populations.

But no matter what the FTDNA results show, all I want to have as clear of an understanding of my genetic origins as possible, and I will not stop exploring until I have some fairly solid answers, whatever they are.

Johnny ola
01-01-2021, 12:05 PM
Thank you Johnny and Kelmendasi for your comments. Yes, I absolutely agree with what you guys are saying.

I think we all share a passion about uncovering our genetic ancestry, and we seek the truth above all else. I think many male AG users have a bit of an irrational, romantic connection with their Y chromosome (me included), even though its just 1% of their genome, and does not contribute much to their phenotype.

I am passionate about the history and demographic processes of Mediterranean populations, and its just I don't have much of a connection with Slavic cultures, that's all. So on a personal level, it would be quite cool if I had a Y line associated with palaeoBalkanic, Caucasus or Levant populations.

But no matter what the FTDNA results show, all I want to have as clear of an understanding of my genetic origins as possible, and I will not stop exploring until I have some fairly solid answers, whatever they are.

You might have a Neolithic lineage from your mother's familly. She Is Cretan and Peloponnesian right? Might be G2a.

dosas
01-01-2021, 12:47 PM
But no matter what the FTDNA results show, all I want to have as clear of an understanding of my genetic origins as possible, and I will not stop exploring until I have some fairly solid answers, whatever they are.


I am in the same boat in my quest for the truth (so dramatic, lol). Autosomals can be wiped out entirely in just a few generations, but Y-DNA is the only concrete proof of patrilinear origins.

Andrewid
01-01-2021, 02:11 PM
I think we all share a passion about uncovering our genetic ancestry, and we seek the truth above all else. I think many male AG users have a bit of an irrational, romantic connection with their Y chromosome (me included), even though its just 1% of their genome, and does not contribute much to their phenotype.

I am passionate about the history and demographic processes of Mediterranean populations, and its just I don't have much of a connection with Slavic cultures, that's all. So on a personal level, it would be quite cool if I had a Y line associated with palaeoBalkanic, Caucasus or Levant populations.

But no matter what the FTDNA results show, all I want to have as clear of an understanding of my genetic origins as possible, and I will not stop exploring until I have some fairly solid answers, whatever they are.


It's interesting that there is an almost emotional pull to one's Y chromosome even though it only adds the tiniest amount to your autosomal makeup. Our family history of Trabzon origins via the male line has fascinated many members of my family for years. Many will exclaim "oh we are Pontians, then". Well the answer is a decisive no but it is gives those of us in the family who give a damn, an emotional pull to the Pontus.

Markos
01-01-2021, 03:35 PM
I have noticed the deep interest in YDNA among many on this forum. This is a perfect place to have such an interest to be honest. For myself, however, my interest is almost zero, haha.

Hawk
01-01-2021, 03:59 PM
I have noticed the deep interest in YDNA among many on this forum. This is a perfect place to have such an interest to be honest. For myself, however, my interest is almost zero, haha.

Why so?

I am interested for instance to know your E-V13 subclade. Just for curiosity.

Markos
01-01-2021, 04:05 PM
Why so?

I am interested for instance to know your E-V13 subclade. Just for curiosity.

I am not against it or anything. If there is an easier way to find my subclade without spending hundreds of dollars, I would do it. But for the time being, it's just not in my plans. Perhaps it shows my ignorance on the subject, but as others have said, being 1% of our genome and my YDNA being basically native to the region, it seems less interesting I suppose? I could be convinced.

XXD
01-01-2021, 08:59 PM
You might have a Neolithic lineage from your mother's familly. She Is Cretan and Peloponnesian right? Might be G2a.

Her father is Arcadian, and is now deceased. If I had a lot of money, I would test one of his brothers or nephews. Most of my Arcadian 23andme matches from the nearby village are J1, E V13, I2 and T.

My mother's mother was Cretan, and Cretans make the bulk of my 23andme matches, and they are overwhelmingly J2a, J1 and a couple of I1 and I2.

XXD
01-01-2021, 09:01 PM
I am in the same boat in my quest for the truth (so dramatic, lol). Autosomals can be wiped out entirely in just a few generations, but Y-DNA is the only concrete proof of patrilinear origins.

Exactly, and this is why I wanted to invest in FTDNA to explore my Y chromosome further. My kit is being shipped now, can't wait to send it back and get my results.

XXD
01-01-2021, 09:01 PM
It's interesting that there is an almost emotional pull to one's Y chromosome even though it only adds the tiniest amount to your autosomal makeup. Our family history of Trabzon origins via the male line has fascinated many members of my family for years. Many will exclaim "oh we are Pontians, then". Well the answer is a decisive no but it is gives those of us in the family who give a damn, an emotional pull to the Pontus.

So do you have Pontic Y DNA?

Johnny ola
01-01-2021, 09:10 PM
Her father is Arcadian, and is now deceased. If I had a lot of money, I would test one of his brothers or nephews. Most of my Arcadian 23andme matches from the nearby village are J1, E V13, I2 and T.

My mother's mother was Cretan, and Cretans make the bulk of my 23andme matches, and they are overwhelmingly J2a, J1 and a couple of I1 and I2.

J1 and T in Arcadia?Wow.I thought such lineages existed mostly in Crete and Islands.

XXD
01-01-2021, 09:17 PM
J1 and T in Arcadia?Wow.I thought such lineages existed mostly in Crete and Islands.

Yeah, they are quite rare in the Peloponnese but they definitely are present in a low percentage. The modern Greek Y chromosome thread has some percentages for Arcadia:

Arcadia (N=38)

E-V13: 18.3%
J2a: 13.2%
R1b-M269: 18.4%
I2a-M423: 10.5%
R1a: 2.6%
J2b: 7.9%
I1: 21.1%
I2a-M223: 0%
G2-P15: 2.6%
T: 2.6%
E1b: 0%
H-M52: 2.6%
J1: 7.9%
Q-L472: 0%
L-M349: 0%

Johnny ola
01-01-2021, 09:40 PM
Yeah, they are quite rare in the Peloponnese but they definitely are present in a low percentage. The modern Greek Y chromosome thread has some percentages for Arcadia:

Arcadia (N=38)

E-V13: 18.3%
J2a: 13.2%
R1b-M269: 18.4%
I2a-M423: 10.5%
R1a: 2.6%
J2b: 7.9%
I1: 21.1%
I2a-M223: 0%
G2-P15: 2.6%
T: 2.6%
E1b: 0%
H-M52: 2.6%
J1: 7.9%
Q-L472: 0%
L-M349: 0%

So,R1b and EV13 seems to be the major markers there right?

XXD
01-01-2021, 09:47 PM
Well, the sample size is too low at the moment IMO. But E and R1b definitely seem to be quite heavily represented.

Sorcelow
01-01-2021, 11:26 PM
Yeah, they are quite rare in the Peloponnese but they definitely are present in a low percentage. The modern Greek Y chromosome thread has some percentages for Arcadia:

Arcadia (N=38)

E-V13: 18.3%
J2a: 13.2%
R1b-M269: 18.4%
I2a-M423: 10.5%
R1a: 2.6%
J2b: 7.9%
I1: 21.1%
I2a-M223: 0%
G2-P15: 2.6%
T: 2.6%
E1b: 0%
H-M52: 2.6%
J1: 7.9%
Q-L472: 0%
L-M349: 0%

Those percentages are slightly off due to a calculation error. Here is what I currently have for Arcadia:

E-V13 7 18%
J2a 5 13%
R1b-M269 7 18%
I2a-M423 6 15%
R1a 1 3%
J2b 4 10%
I1 4 10%
I2a-M223 0 0
G2-P15 1 3%
T 1 3%
E1b 0
H-M52 1 3%
J1 2 5%
Q-L472 0
L-M349 0

Andrewid
01-01-2021, 11:29 PM
So do you have Pontic Y DNA?

None that's specifically traceable. We think it's from the 18th century, so it must be tiny in terms of autosomal admixture by now. But it did prompt me to go for the FTDNA Big Y-700!

Johnny ola
01-01-2021, 11:46 PM
None that's specifically traceable. We think it's from the 18th century, so it must be tiny in terms of autosomal admixture by now. But it did prompt me to go for the FTDNA Big Y-700!

Do you know your haplogroup?

XXD
01-11-2021, 08:12 PM
Still waiting for my FTDNA kit to arrive, but I had a great surprise. My maternal first cousin's 23andme results came in, and he is also R1b CTS2919 (CTS4150)! In the Y predictor he is negative for BY250, like me. I will try to convince him to take a YSEQ test, so we can know a bit more.

His distant paternal ancestry may be from Crete, but I will have to confirm. His surname is very common, so I cannot determine any regional/ethnic affiliation.

Seems that CTS2919 and its subclades may be more common than previously thought!

XXD
02-28-2021, 12:54 AM
An update on my Y chromosome and my paternal origin.

I got new DNA relatives on 23andme, and one of them is listed as R-Y5587, which is the Slavic branch of Z2103. This means that 23andme tests for this subclade, and that I am negative for it, as I am listed simply as R-CTS9219. I also know that I am negative for R-BY250, as this is also tested by 23andme. This renders the Albanian R-BY611 as the likeliest subclade I belong to, although I am prepared for surprises.

After a few exhausting months of genealogical research, I have found a paternal ancestor in Chios in 1790, which confirms that my line was present in Chios prior to the massacre. A couple of other people with my surname have tested, and they belong to two different haplogroups (G2a and J1), which supports the hypothesis that the surname Vafiadis was adopted independently by several families in the same area.

I am impatiently waiting for the FTDNA results (I posted the sample, its still in transit). Can Y 111 lead to the discovery of new subclades, or would I have to upgrade to Big Y 500?

I will try to get my maternal first cousin to test at least with Yseq, as he also belongs to R-CTS9219. He is not interested enough to take the Y 111.

Mis
02-28-2021, 08:27 AM
The Slavs are R1b-y5587-> PH2147 (Y14300).
There is also the line R1b-y5587-> y5586.

XXD
02-28-2021, 09:49 AM
The Slavs are R1b-y5587-> PH2147 (Y14300).
There is also the line R1b-y5587-> y5586.

So downstream of R1b-Y5587. Therefore if I was either PH2147 or y5586, 23andme would classify me as R1b-Y5587?

dosas
02-28-2021, 09:53 AM
23andme is unreliable and highly suspect of just using a morley-type predictor of their own invention.

You just have to be patient.

XXD
02-28-2021, 09:58 AM
23andme is unreliable and highly suspect of just using a morley-type predictor of their own invention.

You just have to be patient.

Ah, damn it! Thanks for letting me know!

Mis
02-28-2021, 10:06 AM
This tree is old but useful
https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?22991-R1b-Z2103-overview-descendant-tree-now-available/page2

bovefex
02-28-2021, 12:04 PM
23andme is unreliable and highly suspect of just using a morley-type predictor of their own invention.

You just have to be patient.

Does that mean that the haplogroup predictions could be completely wrong, or just not specific enough?

dosas
02-28-2021, 12:33 PM
Does that mean that the haplogroup predictions could be completely wrong, or just not specific enough?


Completely wrong.

In my case, because the clade was unknown for the old Morley Experimental Tree nomenclature, it was giving me some R-U106 positive marker, don't remember the exact one.

bovefex
02-28-2021, 12:35 PM
Completely wrong.

In my case, because the clade was unknown for the old Morley Experimental Tree nomenclature, it was giving me some R-U106 positive marker, don't remember the exact one.

But yours still turned out to be a subclade of R1b, right? Or can 23andme get even that wrong?

dosas
02-28-2021, 12:38 PM
But yours still turned out to be a subclade of R1b, right? Or can 23andme get even that wrong?


23ame just gave me R-L23, which isn't technically wrong, and told me I share a common ancestor with some legendary Irish king "of the three rivers" or something, rofl, what nonsense. Almost as bad as the MTA circus telling me the Lazaridis skeletons are my 4th cousins, bwhahaha.

Jatt1
02-28-2021, 12:49 PM
Exactly, and this is why I wanted to invest in FTDNA to explore my Y chromosome further. My kit is being shipped now, can't wait to send it back and get my results.

Have you uploaded your data here, it is for free and have largest R1b tree: https://ydna-warehouse.org/

bovefex
02-28-2021, 02:21 PM
23ame just gave me R-L23, which isn't technically wrong, and told me I share a common ancestor with some legendary Irish king "of the three rivers" or something, rofl, what nonsense.

I mean, technically neither of these are wrong. You belong to R-L23 and you also share a paternal ancestor with that Irish king (actually with everyone who is R1b, lol).

XXD
02-28-2021, 04:00 PM
Have you uploaded your data here, it is for free and have largest R1b tree: https://ydna-warehouse.org/

I am still waiting for my FTDNA data (I posted my kit a month ago, it is still in transit). So far, the only data I have are from 23andme and the Morley Y calculator. When I have my FTDNA results, I will post it there and on Yfull.

XXD
02-28-2021, 04:01 PM
I mean, technically neither of these are wrong. You belong to R-L23 and you also share a paternal ancestor with that Irish king (actually with everyone who is R1b, lol).

But it is very misleading. The problem is that most of these testing companies are tailored for white, Northwestern Europeans. They are quite imprecise for most other populations.

bovefex
02-28-2021, 05:02 PM
But it is very misleading. The problem is that most of these testing companies are tailored for white, Northwestern Europeans. They are quite imprecise for most other populations.

Very true. Someone with less knowledge of the subject might think they are actually descended from said king. In fact, I remember someone think they were royalty, just because they shared a haplogroup with Marie Antoinette.

dosas
02-28-2021, 05:08 PM
Very true. Someone with less knowledge of the subject might think they are actually descended from said king. In fact, I remember someone think they were royalty, just because they shared a haplogroup with Marie Antoinette.


The Facebook group of MTA is pure comedy gold, if you feel like it (sorry for off-topic). People arguing who is more royal than the other. And when someone asks how is it possible to share 50 centimorgans with a dead king, 500 years ago, or even thousands, they all mob on them for daring question their royal blood, rofl.

Give it a go, if you're bored with TV.

XXD
04-23-2021, 10:12 AM
Hi ladies and gents. My FTDNA Y-111 results are in. The only resolution I get is R-M269. Is this really it, or will I get higher resolution as days pass? Or is it just that I do not know how to use FTDNA? :p

I am also waiting for my Nebula WGS, which I will upload to Yfull.

My FTDNA matches at the 67 level are all Albanians and Bosnians, so the posters who suggested an Albanian origin of my line are probably vindicated! I have no matches at the 111 level.

Using the Nevgen calculator, I am R1b-Z2103>Z2106>BY611, a typical Albanian marker.

My Y-STRs: 13,24,14,11,11-11,12,12,12,13,13,29,16,8-10,11,11,25,15,19,30,14-17-17-17,12,11,19-23,15,15,18,17,35-37,12,12,11,9,15-16,8,10,10,8,10,11,13,23-23,16,10,12,12,16,8,12,22,20,14,12,11,13,10,11,12, 12,36,15,9,16,11,26,26,19,12,11,13,12,10,9,12,12,1 0,11,11,30,12,13,24,14,10,10,18,15,19,13,24,18,13, 15,24,12,23,18,11,14,18,9,11,11

PS - Does the absence of any relative at the Y-111 level mean that no "relative" has undertaken a test at this level?

Johnny ola
04-23-2021, 11:22 AM
Hi ladies and gents. My FTDNA Y-111 results are in. The only resolution I get is R-M269. Is this really it, or will I get higher resolution as days pass? Or is it just that I do not know how to use FTDNA? :p

I am also waiting for my Nebula WGS, which I will upload to Yfull.

My FTDNA matches at the 67 level are all Albanians and Bosnians, so the posters who suggested an Albanian origin of my line are probably vindicated! I have no matches at the 111 level.

Using the Nevgen calculator, I am R1b-Z2103>Z2106>BY611, a typical Albanian marker.

My Y-STRs: 13,24,14,11,11-11,12,12,12,13,13,29,16,8-10,11,11,25,15,19,30,14-17-17-17,12,11,19-23,15,15,18,17,35-37,12,12,11,9,15-16,8,10,10,8,10,11,13,23-23,16,10,12,12,16,8,12,22,20,14,12,11,13,10,11,12, 12,36,15,9,16,11,26,26,19,12,11,13,12,10,9,12,12,1 0,11,11,30,12,13,24,14,10,10,18,15,19,13,24,18,13, 15,24,12,23,18,11,14,18,9,11,11

So Its obvious that your ancestor is prolly a mainland Greek man that migrated In Anatolia/Aegean at some time i guess.

XXD
04-23-2021, 11:39 AM
So Its obvious that your ancestor is prolly a mainland Greek man that migrated In Anatolia/Aegean at some time i guess.

My closest match is a man from Vrbica, Bosnia, and we are separated by at least 24 generations at the 67 level, so at least 720 years. There are four villages of Vrbica, 3 very close to the Montenegrin border, the other in central Bosnia. Not sure which village that man is from, but these are areas with huge Albanian influence.

The fact that my line seems to be quite old, might indicate that my ancestor directly emigrated from the Albanian world to the islands; otherwise I would expect to have some matches with Greek Arvanites. But maybe we lack data and these are just speculations.

The fact I am lonely at 111 level :P means that either relatives have not tested, or that my line is extinct in its area of origin?

XXD
04-23-2021, 11:48 AM
PS - my first matches are from: Podcorica (Montenegro), a person who is Thaš (Kosovo?), Diber, and Bosnians. So probably my ancestor was a Gheg/proto-Gegh? So unlikely that he came with the Arvanites?

Johnny ola
04-23-2021, 11:56 AM
My closest match is a man from Vrbica, Bosnia, and we are separated by at least 24 generations at the 67 level, so at least 720 years. There are four villages of Vrbica, 3 very close to the Montenegrin border, the other in central Bosnia. Not sure which village that man is from, but these are areas with huge Albanian influence.

The fact that my line seems to be quite old, might indicate that my ancestor directly emigrated from the Albanian world to the islands; otherwise I would expect to have some matches with Greek Arvanites. But maybe we lack data and these are just speculations.

The fact I am lonely at 111 level :P means that either relatives have not tested, or that my line is extinct in its area of origin?

Also, what do you think I should do with Yfull? Should I just upload my FTDNA results there, or wait for the WGS?

I see. Both options are okay IMO. About Greek arvanites, I am not sure how tested they are. Arvanites today are fully assilimated Btw.I guess some EV13, R1b, I1-I2 And J2b lineages might coming From them I guess.

Kelmendasi
04-23-2021, 11:57 AM
My closest match is a man from Vrbica, Bosnia, and we are separated by at least 24 generations at the 67 level, so at least 720 years. There are four villages of Vrbica, 3 very close to the Montenegrin border, the other in central Bosnia. Not sure which village that man is from, but these are areas with huge Albanian influence.

The fact that my line seems to be quite old, might indicate that my ancestor directly emigrated from the Albanian world to the islands; otherwise I would expect to have some matches with Greek Arvanites. But maybe we lack data and these are just speculations.

The fact I am lonely at 111 level :P means that either relatives have not tested, or that my line is extinct in its area of origin?

Also, what do you think I should do with Yfull? Should I just upload my FTDNA results there, or wait for the WGS?
I am unaware of any R1b-Z2705+ samples from the settlement of Vrbica in Bosnia and Herzegovina. Perhaps they from the village of Gornja Vrbica in Montenegro? The settlement is within the Sand×ak region and is populated by Bosniaks in regards to ethnic identification. There are four R1b-Z2705+ samples from Gornja Vrbica that I am aware of: three belong to the same brotherhood and are Z2705>BY53973 (https://yfull.com/tree/R-BY53973/), whilst the other is Z2705>FT140430 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-FT140430/).

The R1b-BY53973 brotherhood has oral traditions of having come from northern Albania, some suggesting the tribal territory of Kelmendi, whilst the R1b-FT140430 has a few traditions, but two of them suggest an origin from either the Bukmiri or Kuši. On top of this, both of these clusters have Albanian matches somewhere along the line, making an Albanian origin very likely.

XXD
04-23-2021, 12:48 PM
I am unaware of any R1b-Z2705+ samples from the settlement of Vrbica in Bosnia and Herzegovina. Perhaps they from the village of Gornja Vrbica in Montenegro? The settlement is within the Sandžak region and is populated by Bosniaks in regards to ethnic identification. There are four R1b-Z2705+ samples from Gornja Vrbica that I am aware of: three belong to the same brotherhood and are Z2705>BY53973 (https://yfull.com/tree/R-BY53973/), whilst the other is Z2705>FT140430 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-FT140430/).

The R1b-BY53973 brotherhood has oral traditions of having come from northern Albania, some suggesting the tribal territory of Kelmendi, whilst the R1b-FT140430 has a few traditions, but two of them suggest an origin from either the Bukmiri or Kuši. On top of this, both of these clusters have Albanian matches somewhere along the line, making an Albanian origin very likely.

Kelmendasi, thank you for your excellent answer, as always! Maybe I am from Kelmendi as well then :p

Almost all the mainland R1b I have seen are R1b-CTS9219. Could this suggest that most of mainland Greek R1b is of recent Albanian origin? If so, then this might imply a near complete extirpation of ancient Greek Y chromosomes from mainland Greece: R1a (the Slavic type), I2 and I1 account for about 30% of the Greek male gene pool. If we add most of the R1b, and a large part of the E-V13 and J2b, then the non-Greek input may go up to 50% or more.

excine
04-23-2021, 01:31 PM
I am unaware of any R1b-Z2705+ samples from the settlement of Vrbica in Bosnia and Herzegovina. Perhaps they from the village of Gornja Vrbica in Montenegro? The settlement is within the Sandžak region and is populated by Bosniaks in regards to ethnic identification. There are four R1b-Z2705+ samples from Gornja Vrbica that I am aware of: three belong to the same brotherhood and are Z2705>BY53973 (https://yfull.com/tree/R-BY53973/), whilst the other is Z2705>FT140430 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-FT140430/).

The R1b-BY53973 brotherhood has oral traditions of having come from northern Albania, some suggesting the tribal territory of Kelmendi, whilst the R1b-FT140430 has a few traditions, but two of them suggest an origin from either the Bukmiri or Kuši. On top of this, both of these clusters have Albanian matches somewhere along the line, making an Albanian origin very likely.

It does seem like a good percentage of brotherhoods in Sandzak carry R1b-Z2705, more so often in Rozaje and Petnjica where it's seen in the highest percentage according to the samples tested. The Bihorac genus also tends to be that they originate from Shkoder, maybe theres some distant connection to Thaci or Muriqi?

Kelmendasi
04-23-2021, 01:39 PM
Kelmendasi, thank you for your excellent answer, as always! Maybe I am from Kelmendi as well then :p

Almost all the mainland R1b I have seen are R1b-CTS9219. Could this suggest that most of mainland Greek R1b is of recent Albanian origin? If so, then this might imply a near complete extirpation of ancient Greek Y chromosomes from mainland Greece: R1a (the Slavic type), I2 and I1 account for about 30% of the Greek male gene pool. If we add most of the R1b, and a large part of the E-V13 and J2b, then the non-Greek input may go up to 50% or more.
Well, as we have discussed, it seems like your connection to your matches is a bit more distant given that you have distances of 6-7 on 67 markers with them. It seems like your STRs are more unique. I look forward to seeing what your WGS test shows.

From what we know, it is pretty safe to assume that the majority of R1b-Z2705 lineages in Greece arrived via the movements of Albanian-speakers, primarily from the medieval period.

XXD
04-23-2021, 02:16 PM
It does seem like a good percentage of brotherhoods in Sandzak carry R1b-Z2705, more so often in Rozaje and Petnjica where it's seen in the highest percentage according to the samples tested. The Bihorac genus also tends to be that they originate from Shkoder, maybe theres some distant connection to Thaci or Muriqi?

One of my matches if from Thac.

Kelmendasi
04-23-2021, 04:25 PM
So, for now it is safe to say that you fall within R1b-Z2705>Y32147 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y32147/) which is the most prevalent cluster under Z2705. It is best to wait for the WGS test to complete as this will tell you where exactly you fall within Y32147. I also think it is fair to assume that your paternal ancestors somewhere down the line were Albanian-speaking, arriving with the various Albanian migrations to mainland Greece and even the Greek islands.

excine
04-23-2021, 04:49 PM
So, for now it is safe to say that you fall within R1b-Z2705>Y32147 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y32147/) which is the most prevalent cluster under Z2705. It is best to wait for the WGS test to complete as this will tell you where exactly you fall within Y32147. I also think it is fair to assume that your paternal ancestors somewhere down the line were Albanian-speaking, arriving with the various Albanian migrations to mainland Greece and even the Greek islands.

Was there any recorded migrations of Gheg tribes moving to Greece?

Kelmendasi
04-23-2021, 04:54 PM
It does seem like a good percentage of brotherhoods in Sandzak carry R1b-Z2705, more so often in Rozaje and Petnjica where it's seen in the highest percentage according to the samples tested. The Bihorac genus also tends to be that they originate from Shkoder, maybe theres some distant connection to Thaci or Muriqi?
The Bihor cluster or Rod Bihoraca is defined by SNP BY53973 and is made up of various brotherhoods and families from the Bihor region of Sandžak who all share a common ancestor ~500 ybp. The brotherhoods belonging to this cluster a diverse in regards to tribal or geographic origin; a part trace their origin to the Kuši/Kuči, Kelmendi, or other regions of Montenegro and northern Albania. I think it is fair to say that they either arrived as Albanian-speakers, or their ultimate ancestors were Albanians (we know that in the case of the Kuši/Kuči many migrated as Albanian-speakers, but some also as Serbs or Montenegrins).

XXD
04-23-2021, 05:16 PM
So, for now it is safe to say that you fall within R1b-Z2705>Y32147 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y32147/) which is the most prevalent cluster under Z2705. It is best to wait for the WGS test to complete as this will tell you where exactly you fall within Y32147. I also think it is fair to assume that your paternal ancestors somewhere down the line were Albanian-speaking, arriving with the various Albanian migrations to mainland Greece and even the Greek islands.

Absolutely fascinating! I will let you all know when I will receive the WGS results and upload them on Yfull.

Very happy to see I am part of a native Balkan lineage. So a very long time ago, my ancestors were Illyrians/Dardanians/Daco-Moesians. Really cool! And then they were proto Albanians and then Albanians! Perhaps I should add the Albanian flag on my banner now :)

What I do not get is why other Albanian lines (E-V13, J2b) have old TMRCAs, but R1b-Z2103 on the contrary is very young, starting from 1500 years ago? We are sure its not an intrusive, non-proto-Albanian element, right? Although I read here that unpublished samples from pre-Slavic Balkans are particularly rich in R1b-Z2103, so its fairly certain it is a genuine proto-Albanian line.

XXD
04-23-2021, 05:24 PM
So my paternal line is Albanian, my maternal line is from Crete (we will see where it lies on mtfull), my autosomal has Greek islander, Anatolian, Slavic, Peloponnesian and some Roma admixture (1.5-3%). And I am Greek ethnically.

Identity is a really complex matter...

excine
04-23-2021, 05:30 PM
So my paternal line is Albanian, my maternal line is from Crete (we will see where it lies on mtfull), my autosomal has Greek islander, Anatolian, Slavic, Peloponnesian and some Roma admixture (1.5-3%). And I am Greek ethnically.

Identity is a really complex matter...

It certainly is, at the end of the day it's how you feel. You should not feel any less Greek and what not, but as well as you have some Albanian origins it is cool to embrace that fact as well.

XXD
04-23-2021, 06:01 PM
It certainly is, at the end of the day it's how you feel. You should not feel any less Greek and what not, but as well as you have some Albanian origins it is cool to embrace that fact as well.

Thanks for your message. It is interesting that coincidentally I have a deep interest in Albanian genetics (I have bothered Kelmendasi many times). I am still surprised, but definitely not bothered by it. I just want to find out as much as I can about my line, and WGS will provide some interesting answers. And knowing that I have a palaeoBalkan line, well, how cool is that? It means that my ancestors probably witnessed or heard of the Illyrian revolt, were under Roman dominion, fought with the Slavs, and probably recited the amazing Albanian folk mythology.

I am also happy that by 1720 (probably much earlier), my ancestors were fully hellenized, probably by choice, unlike the forced hellenization policies of the Greek state which started in the 19th century.

There were many villages in Chios known as Macedonia, Peloponnese, Tsakonia, Arvanitia, indicating 16th century migrations of their inhabitants from the mainland. My ancestors could have been among them.

excine
04-23-2021, 06:08 PM
Thanks for your message. It is interesting that coincidentally I have a deep interest in Albanian genetics (I have bothered Kelmendasi many times). I am still surprised, but definitely not bothered by it. I just want to find out as much as I can about my line, and WGS will provide some interesting answers. And knowing that I have a palaeoBalkan line, well, how cool is that? It means that my ancestors probably witnessed or heard of the Illyrian revolt, were under Roman dominion, fought with the Slavs, and probably recited the amazing Albanian folk mythology.

I am also happy that by 1720 (probably much earlier), my ancestors were fully hellenized, probably by choice, unlike the forced hellenization policies of the Greek state which started in the 19th century.

There were many villages in Chios known as Macedonia, Peloponnese, Tsakonia, Arvanitia, indicating 16th century migrations of their inhabitants from the mainland. My ancestors could have been among them.

Also, quick question. Where did you purchase your G25 coords? I'm trying to get mine as well. Regarding your message it's nice to know that you're aware and enlightened by the history of your lineage, people migrate, settle and fight. :)

dosas
04-23-2021, 06:25 PM
I am also happy that by 1720 (probably much earlier), my ancestors were fully hellenized, probably by choice, unlike the forced hellenization policies of the Greek state which started in the 19th century.



Which forced Hellenization policies are you referring to and for whom?

XXD
04-23-2021, 06:32 PM
Also, quick question. Where did you purchase your G25 coords? I'm trying to get mine as well. Regarding your message it's nice to know that you're aware and enlightened by the history of your lineage, people migrate, settle and fight. :)

Thanks mate. I got my G25 in October when the Eurogenes store was up and running...

XXD
04-23-2021, 06:40 PM
Which forced Hellenization policies are you referring to and for whom?

We are both proud Greeks and we love our country. I also think that we are by far the most peaceful nation in the Balkans, and that our neighbours often disproportionally hate us, often being victims to their own nationalist propaganda. I have read that the Greek state (under dictatorial rule to be fair) during Metaxas and the military junta of 1964 discouraged the use of Arvanitika among the populace, and there are no protections for the few remaining Arvanitika speakers, unlike the Pomaks for example. Of course the same is true for Tsakonian, which is by far more interesting than Arvanitika to be honest.

Most Arvanites try to distance themselves from Albanians proper, and often invent ridiculous theories i.e. that the Arvanites are Albanized Pelasgians. Of course I do not deny that a very large percentage of Arvanites assimilated themselves into the Greek nation even before the 1821 revolution, especially for religious purposes.

I think the healthiest approach would be the Italian one - that there is no conflict between being Arbereshe and Italian, and that people are aware of their origins.

Feel free to let me know if I am misinformed, I claim no expertise on the matter. And lets not digress into politics too much!

dosas
04-23-2021, 07:47 PM
Feel free to let me know if I am misinformed, I claim no expertise on the matter. And lets not digress into politics too much!


Yes, I agree, let's not digress but let's also refrain from making grande statements.

The Arvanite groups were never oppressed linguistically, they were always staunch supporters of the Crown and represented in governance in a disproportionate high manner in relation to their actual recorded numbers. Maybe because of their fierce adherence to the national cause of the time, their lack of identification to the neighbouring Albanians, which you mentioned, who knows, but there is not an Arvanite historical source, to my knowledge, that speaks of forced policies of assimilation.

Edit:

Arvanite Prime Ministers of Greece:

Georgios Kountouriotis.
Kitsos Tzavelas.
Antonis Kriezis.
Dimitrios Boulgaris.
Athanasios Miaoulis.
Diomedes Kyriakos.
Emmanouil Repoulis.
Paulos Kountouriotis.
Theodoros Pagkalos.
Alexandros Koryzis.
Petros Boulgaris.
Alexandros Diomedes-Kyriakos.

And Paulos Kountouriotis, the President of the First Greek Democracy.

That seems a disproportionate high number of Prime Ministers for an allegedly oppressed group, don't you think? I am not even counting other high ranking governmental officials, military ranking officers, etc.

XXD
04-23-2021, 10:58 PM
Yes, I agree, let's not digress but let's also refrain from making grande statements.

The Arvanite groups were never oppressed linguistically, they were always staunch supporters of the Crown and represented in governance in a disproportionate high manner in relation to their actual recorded numbers. Maybe because of their fierce adherence to the national cause of the time, their lack of identification to the neighbouring Albanians, which you mentioned, who knows, but there is not an Arvanite historical source, to my knowledge, that speaks of forced policies of assimilation.

Edit:

Arvanite Prime Ministers of Greece:

Georgios Kountouriotis.
Kitsos Tzavelas.
Antonis Kriezis.
Dimitrios Boulgaris.
Athanasios Miaoulis.
Diomedes Kyriakos.
Emmanouil Repoulis.
Paulos Kountouriotis.
Theodoros Pagkalos.
Alexandros Koryzis.
Petros Boulgaris.
Alexandros Diomedes-Kyriakos.

And Paulos Kountouriotis, the President of the First Greek Democracy.

That seems a disproportionate high number of Prime Ministers for an allegedly oppressed group, don't you think? I am not even counting other high ranking governmental officials, military ranking officers, etc.

I completely agree with everything you say.

Greekscholar
04-24-2021, 01:51 PM
Yes, I agree, let's not digress but let's also refrain from making grande statements.

The Arvanite groups were never oppressed linguistically, they were always staunch supporters of the Crown and represented in governance in a disproportionate high manner in relation to their actual recorded numbers. Maybe because of their fierce adherence to the national cause of the time, their lack of identification to the neighbouring Albanians, which you mentioned, who knows, but there is not an Arvanite historical source, to my knowledge, that speaks of forced policies of assimilation.

Edit:

Arvanite Prime Ministers of Greece:

Georgios Kountouriotis.
Kitsos Tzavelas.
Antonis Kriezis.
Dimitrios Boulgaris.
Athanasios Miaoulis.
Diomedes Kyriakos.
Emmanouil Repoulis.
Paulos Kountouriotis.
Theodoros Pagkalos.
Alexandros Koryzis.
Petros Boulgaris.
Alexandros Diomedes-Kyriakos.

And Paulos Kountouriotis, the President of the First Greek Democracy.

That seems a disproportionate high number of Prime Ministers for an allegedly oppressed group, don't you think? I am not even counting other high ranking governmental officials, military ranking officers, etc.

Are Kyriakos and Miaoulis considered Arvanite surnames? I recognize them from my match lists.

23abc
04-24-2021, 03:08 PM
Are Kyriakos and Miaoulis considered Arvanite surnames? I recognize them from my match lists.

If your Miaoulis matches are from Kalymnos it has nothing to do with Arvanites. Also upon quick reading his father was named Andreas 'Miaoulis' Vokos, the nickname Miaoulis became a surname for his son.

Greekscholar
04-24-2021, 04:50 PM
If your Miaoulis matches are from Kalymnos it has nothing to do with Arvanites. Also upon quick reading his father was named Andreas 'Miaoulis' Vokos, the nickname Miaoulis became a surname for his son.

Lol, you guessed right. Thank for the reply.

Kanenas
04-24-2021, 05:14 PM
Are Kyriakos and Miaoulis considered Arvanite surnames? I recognize them from my match lists.

Kyriakos is just a Greek personal name. Diomedes too. Not often used as surnames. It doesn't say anything about ancestry.

Many of these names are not Albanian etymologically (linguistically).

E.g. Tzavelas is probably Latin etymologicaly / linguistically.

Kountouriotis comes from Ottoman Turkish kundura ('shoe') which is probably related to ancient Greek κόθορνος and it has a Greek suffix but it doesn't denote anyting about ancestry. It's like English Miller and similar names.

Voulgaris may point to non-Albanian origin.

Pangkalos is etymologically Greek. It means something like 'the most handsome'.

Kriezis is really Albanian. I am not entirely sure about the rest.

Non-Greek speaking groups could have assimilated other groups too or and certain individuals could have changed surnames (e.g. like in the case of the Pangkalos surname). That is also true.

dosas
04-24-2021, 05:29 PM
All these Prime Ministers are of confirmed Arvanite origin and their last name etymologies do not need to have Albanian etymologies, one does not require the other. A simple wikipedia search can confirm their ancestry.

Kanenas
04-24-2021, 05:41 PM
All these Prime Ministers are of confirmed Arvanite origin and their last name etymologies do not need to have Albanian etymologies, one does not require the other. A simple wikipedia search can confirm their ancestry.

I agree. I wrote the following too: "Non-Greek speaking groups could have assimilated other groups too and certain individuals could have changed surnames".
But just having a surname like Kountouriotis (or for example Kountouras) does not denote ancestry from Arvanites. It is a surname like Miller, Baker, Hunter. Semantically similar to Schumacher. And it has a greek suffix.
Voulgaris points to non-Albanian ancestry.

Bruzmi
04-25-2021, 12:16 AM
I agree. I wrote the following too: "Non-Greek speaking groups could have assimilated other groups too and certain individuals could have changed surnames".
But just having a surname like Kountouriotis (or for example Kountouras) does not denote ancestry from Arvanites. It is a surname like Miller, Baker, Hunter. Semantically similar to Schumacher. And it has a greek suffix.
Voulgaris points to non-Albanian ancestry.

I don't want to make comments which aren't relevant to the thread but surnames don't necessarily point to an origin. They may suggest a certain origin in certain conditions (for example, an Albanian surname in Italy can only appear via migration of Albanians), but it's not advisable to assume someone's origin based on just their surname in the Ottoman Balkans. Otherwise we would have to say that all the bearers of -oglu surnames in the Balkans are of Turkic ancestry. People of Arvanite origin in Greece may bear surnames of Albanian, Greek, Slavic, Turkish or any other origin. The etymology of a name is useful in these matters only if it helps with identifying the history of a family, otherwise we shouldn't make too many assumptions about it.

The Koundouriotis were most certainly Arvanites. RHNS Averof: Thunder in the Aegean (https://books.google.com/books?id=bDYRBQAAQBAJ&pg=PT24): The Koundouriotis family became Greek only very gradually. They never forgot that they were Albanians, with more than a touch of the aggressivenes that typifies that ethnic group. George Koundouriotis, though the titular chief of the Greek rebels, could barely speak Greek himself.

Greek scholar Titos Jochalas recently published a paper about his correspondence with another Arvanite Ioannis Orlandos (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ioannis_Orlandos):

The two letters published here are written in the Albanian dialect of Hydra in London (20 Sept. and 16 Mar. 1824) by Hydriot Ioannis Orlandos, and sent to another Hydriot Gheorgios Cunduriotis, his father-in-law as well as Prime Minister of the Greek Government. In an attempt to get rid of Zaimis who currently was in London, Orlandos sent this bitter letter whose content should not be disclosed to Cunduriotis. In fact, he wrote in the Arvanit language of Hydra, a language that the recipient undoubtedly understood. In his second letter, Orlandos overstepped every mark of courtesy displaying insolence and maliciousness. He did not deem sufficient to simply write una letterra di raccomandazione imbued with venom and bitterness on behalf of youngster Stavros Parthenopulos but he also had the courage to hand it over personally to the young man in order to personally deliver it then to Gheorgios Cunduriotis, Prime Minister of the country. In case Parthenopulos would open and read the letter, Orlandos wrote the section relating to the deliverer in the Arvanit language of Hydra, so as to avoid any personal involvement in the question. The text in Albanian in both letters is written in the Greek alphabet and reverberates the peculiar Albanian dialect of Hydra otherwise known as Arvanitica.

Greekscholar
04-25-2021, 01:21 AM
Kyriakos is just a Greek personal name. Diomedes too. Not often used as surnames. It doesn't say anything about ancestry.

Many of these names are not Albanian etymologically (linguistically).

E.g. Tzavelas is probably Latin etymologicaly / linguistically.

Kountouriotis comes from Ottoman Turkish kundura ('shoe') which is probably related to ancient Greek κόθορνος and it has a Greek suffix but it doesn't denote anyting about ancestry. It's like English Miller and similar names.

Voulgaris may point to non-Albanian origin.

Pangkalos is etymologically Greek. It means something like 'the most handsome'.

Kriezis is really Albanian. I am not entirely sure about the rest.

Non-Greek speaking groups could have assimilated other groups too or and certain individuals could have changed surnames (e.g. like in the case of the Pangkalos surname). That is also true.

Thanks. In English, Kyriakos = "Charles" as a personal name, or at least in my family it does. It is an important surname in my family tree, so I was wondering if it had a specific regional/ethnic origin beyond just being a personal name used as a surname.

dosas
04-25-2021, 05:26 AM
Greek community members, please empty your inboxes, it's impossible to message you.

Mods, sorry for the offtopic.

XXD
05-07-2021, 05:00 PM
As I am waiting from my WGS results, I've been analyzing my FTDNA 111 results. These are the only matches I have at 67 level (none at 111), all of which seem to be confined to northern Albania, Kosovo and Montenegro. The Montenegrins have Albanian surnames, which is indicative of their origin. The only Southern Albanian mentions his region as "Qopi", although that is probably a tribal name.

My line has unusually high distances from other Albanians, so perhaps it might prove to be a previously undocumented one.

44587

44588


There are still some things I really do not understand about Albanian Z2103. This haplogroup has a TMRCA around 500 A.D. Correct me if I am wrong, but Albanian J2b and E-V13 are much older, so these are solidly paleo-Balkan markers. But if all of the Albanian population experienced a severe bottleneck in the 5th century, then I would expect all male haplogroups to show a TMRCA around that time, not just Z2103. I have no doubt that Z2103 expanded with early Albanians, but how certain are we that it is a paleo-Balkan marker? I read somewhere that there are unpublished samples from the Balkans that belonged to this line - can someone verify this?

Bruzmi
05-07-2021, 05:18 PM
The Montenegrins have Albanian surnames, which is indicative of their origin. The only Southern Albanian mentions his region as "Qopi", although that is probably a tribal name.

Can you share the surnames from Plav and Petnjica?

XXD
05-07-2021, 05:32 PM
Can you share the surnames from Plav and Petnjica?

PM'd!

Kelmendasi
05-07-2021, 06:25 PM
As I am waiting from my WGS results, I've been analyzing my FTDNA 111 results. These are the only matches I have at 67 level (none at 111), all of which seem to be confined to northern Albania, Kosovo and Montenegro. The Montenegrins have Albanian surnames, which is indicative of their origin. The only Southern Albanian mentions his region as "Qopi", although that is probably a tribal name.

My line has unusually high distances from other Albanians, so perhaps it might prove to be a previously undocumented one.

44587

44588


There are still some things I really do not understand about Albanian Z2103. This haplogroup has a TMRCA around 500 A.D. Correct me if I am wrong, but Albanian J2b and E-V13 are much older, so these are solidly paleo-Balkan markers. But if all of the Albanian population experienced a severe bottleneck in the 5th century, then I would expect all male haplogroups to show a TMRCA around that time, not just Z2103. I have no doubt that Z2103 expanded with early Albanians, but how certain are we that it is a paleo-Balkan marker? I read somewhere that there are unpublished samples from the Balkans that belonged to this line - can someone verify this?
What can be said at the very least is that you are under R1b-Z2705>Y32147 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y32147/), placing your common ancestor ~1,300 ybp or during the early medieval period. In regards to the J2b or E-V13 clusters present among Albanians, the firmly Albanian clusters under those groups also show TMRCAs indicative of a bottleneck during this time period. Take for example the common J2b-PH1751 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-PH1751/) cluster which also has a TMRCA of ~1,300 ybp.

XXD
05-07-2021, 08:49 PM
What can be said at the very least is that you are under R1b-Z2705>Y32147 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y32147/), placing your common ancestor ~1,300 ybp or during the early medieval period. In regards to the J2b or E-V13 clusters present among Albanians, the firmly Albanian clusters under those groups also show TMRCAs indicative of a bottleneck during this time period. Take for example the common J2b-PH1751 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-PH1751/) cluster which also has a TMRCA of ~1,300 ybp.

Thank you very much for your answer! So Z2103 follows a similar historical trajectory with the other lineages. Good to know!