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lacreme
11-19-2020, 05:43 PM
He is my friend's https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?19439-Greek-Gedmatch-Results-with-ancestry-from-various-parts-of-the-country maternal grandfather.
Most of his known ancestors,with the exception of a paternal great-grandfather who is his direct paternal line and was from Lamia,were from an area near Panachaiko mountain in Achaia.

His results are the expected based on his ancestry, basically arvanite/thessalian/western greek like results. Based on some unexpected findings there are other,serious implications though ...

But first, his Myheritage results. Completed in only 9 days, they seem to be noisy scoring both the infamous 1% Ashkenazi Jewish and the 1% Nigerian.
https://i.imgur.com/Zo2E6Vv.jpg

Could it be that the raw DNA data is also noisy ? He scores less than 2% of various east,southeast asian and or african components on gedmatch calcs, the components depending on the calc used.

As for the unexpected findings...My friend doesn't show up on his list of genetic relatives, neither are his other matches... Using the gedmatch tools on his raw data he also doesn't show shared SNPs with my friend.
Now,this clearly points to a recent non paternity event but could it be a case of mixed up samples during the analysis or non correctly harvested swab sample ?
In a few days my friend's mother will have her results too, hopefully it will help clearing up the confusion because right now, both my friend and his mother are seriously freaked out.
To be clear, any non paternity event can only be between my friend's mother and her father because my friend's list of genetic relatives has people known to be distant relatives from his father's side and also probable relatives (based on the areas their surnames are distributed) from his maternal grandmother's side. Unfortunately his maternal grandmother is dead and for obvious reasons it's not something he can discuss with his maternal grandfather :(

Any help appreciated... His GEDMATCH results, YDNA prediction are on the next post, his G25 coordinates will follow when they're ready

lacreme
11-19-2020, 05:44 PM
Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 East_Med 24.69
2 West_Med 22.23
3 North_Atlantic 20.06
4 Baltic 17.3
5 West_Asian 10.78
6 Red_Sea 1.73
7 East_Asian 1.33
8 Sub-Saharan 1
9 Oceanian 0.77
10 Amerindian 0.06
11 Northeast_African 0.04

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Greek_Thessaly 3.72
2 Bulgarian 8.47
3 Central_Greek 9.46
4 Tuscan 9.67
5 Italian_Abruzzo 9.77
6 West_Sicilian 9.91
7 Romanian 10.63
8 East_Sicilian 10.65
9 Ashkenazi 12.69
10 North_Italian 12.97
11 South_Italian 13.19
12 Serbian 14.63
13 Algerian_Jewish 18.49
14 Italian_Jewish 18.68
15 Sephardic_Jewish 19.21
16 Moldavian 20.46
17 Portuguese 20.86
18 Spanish_Extremadura 21.25
19 Spanish_Galicia 21.86
20 Spanish_Andalucia 22.27

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 54.5% Bulgarian + 45.5% West_Sicilian @ 3.22
2 93.7% Greek_Thessaly + 6.3% Southwest_French @ 3.28
3 93% Greek_Thessaly + 7% Spanish_Valencia @ 3.32
4 93.8% Greek_Thessaly + 6.2% Spanish_Cantabria @ 3.33
5 93.1% Greek_Thessaly + 6.9% Spanish_Cataluna @ 3.33
6 95.9% Greek_Thessaly + 4.1% French_Basque @ 3.34
7 88.6% Greek_Thessaly + 11.4% North_Italian @ 3.35
8 93.4% Greek_Thessaly + 6.6% Spanish_Andalucia @ 3.38
9 94.6% Greek_Thessaly + 5.4% Spanish_Aragon @ 3.39
10 93.8% Greek_Thessaly + 6.2% Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon @ 3.4
11 94.1% Greek_Thessaly + 5.9% Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha @ 3.41
12 93.3% Greek_Thessaly + 6.7% Portuguese @ 3.41
13 95.5% Greek_Thessaly + 4.5% Sardinian @ 3.41
14 93.8% Greek_Thessaly + 6.2% Spanish_Murcia @ 3.42
15 93.7% Greek_Thessaly + 6.3% Spanish_Galicia @ 3.43
16 93.8% Greek_Thessaly + 6.2% Spanish_Extremadura @ 3.46
17 84.9% Greek_Thessaly + 15.1% Bulgarian @ 3.46
18 95.2% Greek_Thessaly + 4.8% East_German @ 3.48
19 95% Greek_Thessaly + 5% Austrian @ 3.49
20 94.8% Greek_Thessaly + 5.2% French @ 3.49

Eurogenes K13 4-Ancestors Oracle

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 East_Med 24.69
2 West_Med 22.23
3 North_Atlantic 20.06
4 Baltic 17.30
5 West_Asian 10.78
6 Red_Sea 1.73
7 East_Asian 1.33


Finished reading population data. 204 populations found.
13 components mode.

--------------------------------

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 Greek_Thessaly @ 3.927622
2 Bulgarian @ 9.557183
3 Central_Greek @ 10.708405
4 Tuscan @ 10.926871
5 Italian_Abruzzo @ 10.998326
6 West_Sicilian @ 11.152755
7 East_Sicilian @ 11.971867
8 Romanian @ 12.044098
9 Ashkenazi @ 14.446675
10 North_Italian @ 14.866632
11 South_Italian @ 14.978918
12 Serbian @ 16.672079
13 Algerian_Jewish @ 21.018536
14 Italian_Jewish @ 21.289394
15 Sephardic_Jewish @ 21.777895
16 Moldavian @ 23.349262
17 Portuguese @ 24.055365
18 Spanish_Extremadura @ 24.443201
19 Spanish_Galicia @ 25.218510
20 Spanish_Andalucia @ 25.591909

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% Bulgarian +50% West_Sicilian @ 3.590729


Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% Bulgarian +25% West_Sicilian +25% West_Sicilian @ 3.590729


Using 4 populations approximation:
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++
1 Bulgarian + Lebanese_Druze + Sardinian + South_Polish @ 2.604050
2 Bulgarian + Lebanese_Druze + Sardinian + Ukrainian @ 2.867522
3 Lebanese_Druze + Romanian + Sardinian + South_Polish @ 2.942808
4 Lebanese_Druze + Romanian + Sardinian + Ukrainian @ 3.045936
5 Bulgarian + Lebanese_Druze + Sardinian + Ukrainian_Belgorod @ 3.053868
6 Bulgarian + Lebanese_Druze + Sardinian + Ukrainian_Lviv @ 3.110376
7 Bulgarian + Lebanese_Druze + Polish + Sardinian @ 3.133389
8 Bulgarian + Lebanese_Druze + Sardinian + Southwest_Russian @ 3.180911
9 Lebanese_Druze + Romanian + Sardinian + Ukrainian_Belgorod @ 3.200692
10 Lebanese_Druze + Romanian + Sardinian + Ukrainian_Lviv @ 3.259320
11 Croatian + Lebanese_Druze + Sardinian + Serbian @ 3.279143
12 Italian_Abruzzo + Lebanese_Druze + Lithuanian + Sardinian @ 3.315340
13 Lebanese_Druze + Romanian + Sardinian + Southwest_Russian @ 3.323547
14 Lebanese_Druze + Moldavian + Sardinian + Serbian @ 3.351990
15 Croatian + Lebanese_Druze + Romanian + Sardinian @ 3.381991
16 Bulgarian + Greek_Thessaly + Greek_Thessaly + West_Sicilian @ 3.445359
17 Bulgarian + Lebanese_Druze + Russian_Smolensk + Sardinian @ 3.490747
18 Bulgarian + Croatian + Lebanese_Druze + Sardinian @ 3.504777
19 Algerian_Jewish + Bulgarian + Bulgarian + North_Italian @ 3.520724
20 Lebanese_Druze + Moldavian + Moldavian + Sardinian @ 3.547904


Eurogenes K15


Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 East_Med 21.03
2 West_Med 18.02
3 Atlantic 17.57
4 Baltic 12.63
5 West_Asian 11.87
6 North_Sea 10.49
7 Eastern_Euro 3.98
8 Red_Sea 2.06
9 Sub-Saharan 0.84
10 Southeast_Asian 0.76
11 Oceanian 0.68
12 Northeast_African 0.08

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Greek 4.43
2 Greek_Thessaly 6.73
3 Tuscan 7.68
4 Bulgarian 8.39
5 Italian_Abruzzo 8.53
6 Central_Greek 9.17
7 West_Sicilian 9.29
8 East_Sicilian 9.99
9 Romanian 10.97
10 Ashkenazi 11.46
11 North_Italian 11.5
12 South_Italian 11.52
13 Serbian 14.48
14 Italian_Jewish 16.37
15 Sephardic_Jewish 17.1
16 Algerian_Jewish 17.24
17 Spanish_Andalucia 18.35
18 Portuguese 18.69
19 Spanish_Extremadura 18.71
20 Spanish_Murcia 18.95

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 85.1% Greek + 14.9% Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon @ 2.89
2 85.4% Greek + 14.6% Spanish_Cataluna @ 2.99
3 87.3% Greek + 12.7% Spanish_Cantabria @ 3.06
4 87.5% Greek + 12.5% Southwest_French @ 3.06
5 85% Greek + 15% Spanish_Andalucia @ 3.08
6 85.8% Greek + 14.2% Spanish_Valencia @ 3.08
7 77.7% Greek + 22.3% North_Italian @ 3.08
8 87.6% Greek + 12.4% Spanish_Aragon @ 3.1
9 85.6% Greek + 14.4% Spanish_Murcia @ 3.13
10 85.4% Greek + 14.6% Portuguese @ 3.13
11 91% Greek + 9% French_Basque @ 3.14
12 86.8% Greek + 13.2% Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha @ 3.15
13 86% Greek + 14% Spanish_Galicia @ 3.16
14 85.7% Greek + 14.3% Spanish_Extremadura @ 3.2
15 88.4% Greek + 11.6% French @ 3.38
16 91.7% Greek + 8.3% Southwest_English @ 3.5
17 71.9% Greek + 28.1% Tuscan @ 3.54
18 92.1% Greek + 7.9% Southeast_English @ 3.57
19 90.4% Greek + 9.6% South_Dutch @ 3.57
20 92.5% Greek + 7.5% Irish @ 3.57

Eurogenes EUtest V2 K15 4-Ancestors Oracle

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 East_Med 21.03
2 West_Med 18.02
3 Atlantic 17.57
4 Baltic 12.63
5 West_Asian 11.87
6 North_Sea 10.49
7 Eastern_Euro 3.98
8 Red_Sea 2.06


Finished reading population data. 207 populations found.
15 components mode.

--------------------------------

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 Greek @ 5.092022
2 Greek_Thessaly @ 7.720819
3 Tuscan @ 8.695955
4 Bulgarian @ 9.664805
5 Italian_Abruzzo @ 9.672360
6 Central_Greek @ 10.549465
7 West_Sicilian @ 10.583861
8 East_Sicilian @ 11.337139
9 Romanian @ 12.685031
10 Ashkenazi @ 12.933096
11 North_Italian @ 13.324771
12 South_Italian @ 13.337761
13 Serbian @ 16.870102
14 Italian_Jewish @ 18.821297
15 Sephardic_Jewish @ 19.607115
16 Algerian_Jewish @ 19.856298
17 Spanish_Andalucia @ 21.375921
18 Spanish_Extremadura @ 21.788559
19 Portuguese @ 21.802649
20 Spanish_Murcia @ 22.108116

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% Greek +50% Tuscan @ 4.536656


Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% Greek +25% Greek +25% North_Italian @ 3.430467


Using 4 populations approximation:
1 Greek + Greek + Greek + North_Italian @ 3.430467
2 Bulgarian + Greek + North_Italian + South_Italian @ 3.509825
3 Bulgarian + Greek + Greek + Tuscan @ 3.511085
4 Bulgarian + Central_Greek + Greek + North_Italian @ 3.771708
5 Bulgarian + Greek + Greek + North_Italian @ 3.835896
6 Bulgarian + Bulgarian + South_Italian + Tuscan @ 3.851481
7 Greek + Greek + Greek_Thessaly + North_Italian @ 3.862688
8 Bulgarian + Bulgarian + Cyprian + Spanish_Andalucia @ 3.867276
9 Bulgarian + East_Sicilian + Greek + North_Italian @ 3.906075
10 Greek + Greek + Greek + Tuscan @ 3.958799
11 Bulgarian + Cyprian + Greek + Southwest_French @ 3.988158
12 Bulgarian + Bulgarian + Cyprian + Spanish_Valencia @ 4.010437
13 Greek + North_Italian + Romanian + South_Italian @ 4.023858
14 Greek + Greek + Romanian + Tuscan @ 4.047952
15 Bulgarian + Greek + South_Italian + Spanish_Andalucia @ 4.054014
16 Bulgarian + Bulgarian + North_Italian + South_Italian @ 4.061903
17 Bulgarian + Central_Greek + Greek + Tuscan @ 4.113246
18 Bulgarian + Greek + South_Italian + Tuscan @ 4.126570
19 Greek + Greek + Greek + Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon @ 4.156217
20 Greek + Greek + Greek_Thessaly + Spanish_Andalucia @ 4.161187


Eurogenes K36



Population
Amerindian -
Arabian -
Armenian 5.33 Pct
Basque -
Central_African -
Central_Euro -
East_African -
East_Asian -
East_Balkan 9.18 Pct
East_Central_Asian -
East_Central_Euro 3.82 Pct
East_Med 8.58 Pct
Eastern_Euro 5.88 Pct
Fennoscandian 0.05 Pct
French 2.45 Pct
Iberian 9.67 Pct
Indo-Chinese -
Italian 24.89 Pct
Malayan -
Near_Eastern 6.79 Pct
North_African 0.1 Pct
North_Atlantic 8.11 Pct
North_Caucasian -
North_Sea 2.36 Pct
Northeast_African -
Oceanian 0.2 Pct
Omotic -
Pygmy 0.07 Pct
Siberian -
South_Asian 1.29 Pct
South_Central_Asian -
South_Chinese -
Volga-Ural -
West_African -
West_Caucasian 4.49 Pct
West_Med 6.74 Pct


Dodecad K12b


Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 Caucasus 32.19
2 Atlantic_Med 29.1
3 North_European 23.27
4 Southwest_Asian 7.25
5 Gedrosia 3.85
6 Northwest_African 1.74
7 Southeast_Asian 1.33
8 South_Asian 1.09
9 Sub_Saharan 0.15
10 East_African 0.03

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 O_Italian (Dodecad) 6.2
2 Greek (Dodecad) 6.47
3 C_Italian (Dodecad) 8.15
4 Tuscan (HGDP) 9.63
5 TSI30 (Metspalu) 10.45
6 Bulgarians (Yunusbayev) 11.95
7 Bulgarian (Dodecad) 12.05
8 Sicilian (Dodecad) 12.33
9 S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) 12.49
10 Romanians (Behar) 13.12
11 Ashkenazy_Jews (Behar) 13.13
12 Ashkenazi (Dodecad) 13.38
13 N_Italian (Dodecad) 14.31
14 North_Italian (HGDP) 16.41
15 Sephardic_Jews (Behar) 19.37
16 Morocco_Jews (Behar) 21.23
17 Baleares (1000Genomes) 25.07
18 Turkish (Dodecad) 25.41
19 Galicia (1000Genomes) 26.17
20 Cypriots (Behar) 26.37

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 60.3% C_Italian (Dodecad) + 39.7% Bulgarian (Dodecad) @ 2.41
2 84.5% Greek (Dodecad) + 15.5% Mixed_Germanic (Dodecad) @ 2.63
3 85.2% Greek (Dodecad) + 14.8% Dutch (Dodecad) @ 2.66
4 85.7% Greek (Dodecad) + 14.3% CEU30 (1000Genomes) @ 2.66
5 85.8% Greek (Dodecad) + 14.2% English (Dodecad) @ 2.67
6 60.2% C_Italian (Dodecad) + 39.8% Bulgarians (Yunusbayev) @ 2.67
7 85.6% Greek (Dodecad) + 14.4% Kent (1000Genomes) @ 2.68
8 86.2% Greek (Dodecad) + 13.8% British_Isles (Dodecad) @ 2.68
9 86.8% Greek (Dodecad) + 13.2% Orkney (1000Genomes) @ 2.69
10 86.6% Greek (Dodecad) + 13.4% Argyll (1000Genomes) @ 2.7
11 86.8% Greek (Dodecad) + 13.2% Orcadian (HGDP) @ 2.7
12 86.7% Greek (Dodecad) + 13.3% Irish (Dodecad) @ 2.71
13 86.3% Greek (Dodecad) + 13.7% British (Dodecad) @ 2.74
14 86.1% Greek (Dodecad) + 13.9% Cornwall (1000Genomes) @ 2.75
15 51.6% Sicilian (Dodecad) + 48.4% Romanians (Behar) @ 2.8
16 62.7% C_Italian (Dodecad) + 37.3% Romanians (Behar) @ 2.83
17 87.8% Greek (Dodecad) + 12.2% Norwegian (Dodecad) @ 2.85
18 84.3% Greek (Dodecad) + 15.7% German (Dodecad) @ 2.92
19 83.4% Greek (Dodecad) + 16.6% French (HGDP) @ 3.01
20 51.3% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 48.7% Romanians (Behar) @ 3.03

Dodecad K12b 4-Ancestors Oracle

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 Caucasus 32.19
2 Atlantic_Med 29.10
3 North_European 23.27
4 Southwest_Asian 7.25
5 Gedrosia 3.85
6 Northwest_African 1.74
7 Southeast_Asian 1.33
8 South_Asian 1.09


Finished reading population data. 223 populations found.
12 components mode.

--------------------------------

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 O_Italian_Dodecad @ 6.695875
2 Greek_Dodecad @ 7.095695
3 C_Italian_Dodecad @ 8.769273
4 Tuscan_HGDP @ 10.350053
5 TSI30_Metspalu @ 11.252002
6 Bulgarians_Yunusbayev @ 12.970367
7 Bulgarian_Dodecad @ 13.087984
8 Sicilian_Dodecad @ 13.408428
9 S_Italian_Sicilian_Dodecad @ 13.575165
10 Romanians_Behar @ 14.291318
11 Ashkenazy_Jews_Behar @ 14.301065
12 Ashkenazi_Dodecad @ 14.539511
13 N_Italian_Dodecad @ 15.608073
14 North_Italian_HGDP @ 17.814030
15 Sephardic_Jews_Behar @ 21.029770
16 Morocco_Jews_Behar @ 22.983118
17 Baleares_1000Genomes @ 27.451918
18 Turkish_Dodecad @ 27.670401
19 Galicia_1000Genomes @ 28.815475
20 Cypriots_Behar @ 28.927486

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% Romanians_Behar +50% Sicilian_Dodecad @ 2.917039


Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% Bulgarians_Yunusbayev +25% Sephardic_Jews_Behar +25% TSI30_Metspalu @ 2.345545


Using 4 populations approximation:
1 Armenians_Behar + Ashkenazy_Jews_Behar + Lithuanians_Behar + Sardinian_HGDP @ 1.882722
2 Armenians_Behar + Ashkenazy_Jews_Behar + Lithuanian_Dodecad + Sardinian_HGDP @ 1.887769
3 Armenians_Behar + Ashkenazi_Dodecad + Lithuanian_Dodecad + Sardinian_HGDP @ 1.987683
4 Armenians_Behar + Ashkenazi_Dodecad + Lithuanians_Behar + Sardinian_HGDP @ 2.012301
5 Ashkenazy_Jews_Behar + Greek_Dodecad + N_Italian_Dodecad + Romanians_Behar @ 2.083432
6 Ashkenazy_Jews_Behar + Bulgarians_Yunusbayev + O_Italian_Dodecad + O_Italian_Dodecad @ 2.132678
7 Ashkenazy_Jews_Behar + Bulgarian_Dodecad + Greek_Dodecad + N_Italian_Dodecad @ 2.143741
8 Ashkenazy_Jews_Behar + Bulgarians_Yunusbayev + Greek_Dodecad + N_Italian_Dodecad @ 2.252699
9 Bulgarian_Dodecad + C_Italian_Dodecad + Greek_Dodecad + O_Italian_Dodecad @ 2.265838
10 Bulgarians_Yunusbayev + Romanians_Behar + Sephardic_Jews_Behar + Tuscan_HGDP @ 2.298969
11 Ashkenazy_Jews_Behar + O_Italian_Dodecad + O_Italian_Dodecad + Romanians_Behar @ 2.306560
12 Ashkenazy_Jews_Behar + Bulgarian_Dodecad + O_Italian_Dodecad + O_Italian_Dodecad @ 2.332853
13 Bulgarians_Yunusbayev + C_Italian_Dodecad + Greek_Dodecad + O_Italian_Dodecad @ 2.339270
14 Bulgarians_Yunusbayev + Bulgarians_Yunusbayev + Sephardic_Jews_Behar + TSI30_Metspalu @ 2.345545
15 Bulgarians_Yunusbayev + Bulgarians_Yunusbayev + Sephardic_Jews_Behar + Tuscan_HGDP @ 2.348749
16 Ashkenazi_Dodecad + Greek_Dodecad + N_Italian_Dodecad + Romanians_Behar @ 2.373058
17 C_Italian_Dodecad + Greek_Dodecad + O_Italian_Dodecad + Romanians_Behar @ 2.376912
18 Ashkenazi_Dodecad + Bulgarians_Yunusbayev + O_Italian_Dodecad + O_Italian_Dodecad @ 2.397562
19 Ashkenazi_Dodecad + Bulgarian_Dodecad + Greek_Dodecad + N_Italian_Dodecad @ 2.409793
20 Bulgarians_Yunusbayev + Romanians_Behar + Sephardic_Jews_Behar + TSI30_Metspalu @ 2.411879


MDLP K23b


Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 Caucasian 37.63
2 European_Early_Farmers 24.93
3 European_Hunters_Gatherers 20.14
4 Near_East 6.16
5 South_Central_Asian 3.14
6 Australoid 2.1
7 North_African 1.93
8 Ancestral_Altaic 1.24
9 East_African 1.09
10 Amerindian 0.88
11 East_Siberian 0.62
12 African_Pygmy 0.13

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Kosovar ( ) 2.87
2 Albanian_Tirana ( ) 3.21
3 Greek_Thessaly ( ) 3.35
4 Greek_Northwest ( ) 3.97
5 Greek_Peloponnesos ( ) 4.43
6 Greek_Thessaloniki ( ) 4.55
7 Sicilian_Siracusa ( ) 6.29
8 Central_Greek ( ) 6.34
9 Ashkenazi ( ) 6.91
10 Ashkenazi_Jew ( ) 7.22
11 Bulgarian ( ) 7.76
12 Macedonian ( ) 8.05
13 Italian_Abruzzo ( ) 8.3
14 Sicilian_East ( ) 8.32
15 Romanian_Jew ( ) 8.41
16 Sicilian_Trapani ( ) 8.61
17 Sicilian_Center ( ) 8.77
18 Sicilian_West ( ) 8.95
19 Sicilian_Agrigento ( ) 9.04
20 French_Jew ( ) 9.29

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 93.2% Albanian_Tirana ( ) + 6.8% French ( ) @ 2.15
2 94.5% Albanian_Tirana ( ) + 5.5% Spanish_Galicia_IBS ( ) @ 2.17
3 94% Albanian_Tirana ( ) + 6% Spaniard ( ) @ 2.17
4 95.3% Albanian_Tirana ( ) + 4.7% Spanish_Cantabria_IBS ( ) @ 2.18
5 94.5% Albanian_Tirana ( ) + 5.5% Spanish_Murcia_IBS ( ) @ 2.18
6 94.4% Albanian_Tirana ( ) + 5.6% Spanish_Cataluna_IBS ( ) @ 2.18
7 94.5% Albanian_Tirana ( ) + 5.5% Spanish_Extremadura_IBS ( ) @ 2.19
8 93.1% Albanian_Tirana ( ) + 6.9% English_Kent_GBR ( ) @ 2.19
9 95.1% Albanian_Tirana ( ) + 4.9% Spanish_Castilla_la_Mancha_IBS ( ) @ 2.19
10 94.8% Albanian_Tirana ( ) + 5.2% Spanish_Andalucia_IBS ( ) @ 2.19
11 94.7% Albanian_Tirana ( ) + 5.3% Spanish_Castilla_y_Leon_IBS ( ) @ 2.2
12 92.9% Albanian_Tirana ( ) + 7.1% Spanish_Baleares_IBS ( ) @ 2.2
13 95.1% Albanian_Tirana ( ) + 4.9% Colombian ( ) @ 2.2
14 93.8% Albanian_Tirana ( ) + 6.2% Portugese ( ) @ 2.2
15 95.3% Albanian_Tirana ( ) + 4.7% Spanish_Aragon_IBS ( ) @ 2.2
16 94.9% Albanian_Tirana ( ) + 5.1% Spanish_Valencia_IBS ( ) @ 2.2
17 93.6% Albanian_Tirana ( ) + 6.4% Welsh ( ) @ 2.2
18 95.7% Albanian_Tirana ( ) + 4.3% French_South ( ) @ 2.2
19 93.7% Albanian_Tirana ( ) + 6.3% British ( ) @ 2.21
20 96.6% Albanian_Tirana ( ) + 3.4% Spanish_Pais_Vasco_IBS ( ) @ 2.21

MDLP K23b 4-Ancestors Oracle

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 Caucasian 37.63
2 European_Early_Farmers 24.93
3 European_Hunters_Gatherers 20.14
4 Near_East 6.16
5 South_Central_Asian 3.14
6 Australoid 2.10
7 North_African 1.93
8 Ancestral_Altaic 1.24
9 East_African 1.09


Finished reading population data. 620 populations found.
23 components mode.

--------------------------------

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 Albanian_Tirana_ @ 2.801378
2 Greek_Thessaly_ @ 3.318026
3 Kosovar_ @ 3.698566
4 Greek_Northwest_ @ 3.883727
5 Greek_Thessaloniki_ @ 4.287706
6 Greek_Peloponnesos_ @ 4.530814
7 Central_Greek_ @ 5.395383
8 Greek_ @ 8.602624
9 Greek_Athens_ @ 9.047677
10 Ashkenazi_ @ 9.086744
11 Greek_Macedonia_ @ 9.720438
12 Italian_Tuscan_ @ 9.977396
13 Ashkenazi_Jew_ @ 10.675898
14 Sicilian_Siracusa_ @ 10.692683
15 Italian_Abruzzo_ @ 10.838719
16 Greek_Phokaia_ @ 10.903772
17 Romanian_Jew_ @ 11.001445
18 Crimean_Tatar_Mountain_ @ 11.082608
19 Italian_South_ @ 11.269232
20 Italian_Piedmont_ @ 11.292611

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% Albanian_Tirana_ +50% Kosovar_ @ 2.769433


Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% Albanian_Tirana_ +25% Greek_Thessaloniki_ +25% Italian_Tuscan_ @ 2.569397


Using 4 populations approximation:
1 Albanian_Tirana_ + Gagauz_ + Greek_Athens_ + Italian_Bergamo_ @ 2.452473
2 Albanian_Tirana_ + Gagauz_ + Greek_ + Italian_Bergamo_ @ 2.537487
3 Gagauz_ + Greek_Athens_ + Greek_Thessaly_ + Italian_Bergamo_ @ 2.543720
4 Albanian_Tirana_ + Greek_Thessaloniki_ + Greek_Thessaloniki_ + Italian_Tuscan_ @ 2.554407
5 Gagauz_ + Greek_Athens_ + Italian_Piedmont_ + Kosovar_ @ 2.562616
6 Albanian_Tirana_ + Albanian_Tirana_ + Greek_Thessaloniki_ + Italian_Tuscan_ @ 2.569397
7 Kosovar_ + Kosovar_ + Kosovar_ + Romanian_Jew_ @ 2.570691
8 Albanian_Tirana_ + Gagauz_ + Italian_Bergamo_ + Italian_South_ @ 2.583906
9 Central_Greek_ + Central_Greek_ + Gagauz_ + Italian_Bergamo_ @ 2.600462
10 Albanian_Tirana_ + Gagauz_ + Italian_Abruzzo_ + Kosovar_ @ 2.600913
11 Albanian_Tirana_ + Central_Greek_ + Gagauz_ + Italian_Piedmont_ @ 2.604605
12 Albanian_Tirana_ + Greek_Thessaloniki_ + Greek_Thessaloniki_ + Italian_Piedmont_ @ 2.608940
13 Albanian_Tirana_ + Bulgarian_ + Greek_Athens_ + Italian_Piedmont_ @ 2.617637
14 Albanian_Tirana_ + Greek_Thessaloniki_ + Greek_Thessaly_ + Italian_Tuscan_ @ 2.619228
15 Gagauz_ + Greek_Athens_ + Greek_Thessaloniki_ + Italian_Bergamo_ @ 2.621182
16 Albanian_Tirana_ + Albanian_Tirana_ + Albanian_Tirana_ + Kosovar_ @ 2.630497
17 Central_Greek_ + Gagauz_ + Greek_Athens_ + Italian_Bergamo_ @ 2.634193
18 Albanian_Tirana_ + Greek_Macedonia_ + Italian_Piedmont_ + Kosovar_ @ 2.638470
19 Greek_Athens_ + Kosovar_ + Kosovar_ + Kosovar_ @ 2.649394
20 Albanian_Tirana_ + Albanian_Tirana_ + Gagauz_ + Italian_Tuscan_ @ 2.651585


YDNA PREDICTION
(his direct paternal line is from Lamia)
https://i.imgur.com/I1N9Db6.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/Zs6Ii4b.jpg

dosas
11-19-2020, 05:53 PM
R-Z2103 downstream predicted by Morley.

He should invest in proper Y-testing!

lacreme
11-19-2020, 06:07 PM
R-Z2103 downstream predicted by Morley.

He should invest in proper Y-testing!

Isn't the R-Z2103 in general the most common major R1b subclade in Greece ?

He could but he currently lacks the funds and even if he was able there is a serious possibility of a non paternity event between him (the grandfather) and my friend's mother so until the situation resolves, he is awaiting his mother's results, he doesn't feel like investing more...
Oh well...the dangers of dna testing :\

dosas
11-19-2020, 06:25 PM
Isn't the R-Z2103 in general the most common major R1b subclade in Greece ?

He could but he currently lacks the funds and even if he was able there is a serious possibility of a non paternity event between him (the grandfather) and my friend's mother so until the situation resolves, he is awaiting his mother's results, he doesn't feel like investing more...
Oh well...the dangers of dna testing :\


I don't think it's the most common, I mean I don't know for sure but I don't think it is.

Y-DNA testing will help with the truth, but it's his money I guess.

Johnny ola
11-19-2020, 06:34 PM
Where from Achaia he has roots?

Johnny ola
11-19-2020, 06:47 PM
Isn't the R-Z2103 in general the most common major R1b subclade in Greece ?

He could but he currently lacks the funds and even if he was able there is a serious possibility of a non paternity event between him (the grandfather) and my friend's mother so until the situation resolves, he is awaiting his mother's results, he doesn't feel like investing more...
Oh well...the dangers of dna testing :\

This specific haplo/clade, it would be a really good investment for him.It is an important lineage for the west eurasia area.I don't know his economics but he can buy a cheap test now at X-MAS to have an idea.

lacreme
11-19-2020, 06:48 PM
Most of his Achaean ancestors were from somewhere around the highlighted area,mostly from Tsetsevochoria
https://i.imgur.com/VbhspoV.jpg
https://el.wikipedia.org/wiki/%CE%A4%CF%83%CE%B5%CF%84%CF%83%CE%B5%CE%B2%CF%8C%C F%82_%CE%91%CF%87%CE%B1%CE%90%CE%B1%CF%82

lacreme
11-19-2020, 07:08 PM
I don't think it's the most common, I mean I don't know for sure but I don't think it is.

Y-DNA testing will help with the truth, but it's his money I guess.


This specific haplo/clade, it would be a really good investment for him.It is an important lineage for the west eurasia area.I don't know his economics but he can buy a cheap test now at X-MAS to have an idea.

Which test would you suggest ? He is waiting for a possible black friday deal from dantelabs for himself but for his maternal grandfather something cheaper should do, he isn't his line in the end of the day .

In any case unfortunately it'll not help much with the truth as his direct male descendants aren't available for testing/easy to get hold of.

Johnny ola
11-19-2020, 07:10 PM
Most of his Achaean ancestors were from somewhere around the highlighted area,mostly from Tsetsevochoria
https://i.imgur.com/VbhspoV.jpg
https://el.wikipedia.org/wiki/%CE%A4%CF%83%CE%B5%CF%84%CF%83%CE%B5%CE%B2%CF%8C%C F%82_%CE%91%CF%87%CE%B1%CE%90%CE%B1%CF%82

Hmm,Slavic-Vlach area taking also serious the toponyms there.Achaia in general is a more northern shifted region for the Peloponnese standards.But still your lad is not so northern as Macedonian_Greeks are.Anyways,convince him to discover his haplogroup... worth it trust me.

xripkan
11-19-2020, 07:12 PM
Which test would you suggest ? He is waiting for a possible black friday deal from dantelabs for himself but for his maternal grandfather something cheaper should do, he isn't his line in the end of the day .

In any case unfortunately it'll not help much with the truth as his direct male descendants aren't available for testing/easy to get hold of.

A cheaper option would be R1b-Z2103 panel from YSEQ. You don't get any STRs but you find your final clade.

Johnny ola
11-19-2020, 07:16 PM
Which test would you suggest ? He is waiting for a possible black friday deal from dantelabs for himself but for his maternal grandfather something cheaper should do, he isn't his line in the end of the day .

In any case unfortunately it'll not help much with the truth as his direct male descendants aren't available for testing/easy to get hold of.

Look for sales/offers.Ftdna IMO.Start with something cheap!!!

dosas
11-19-2020, 07:31 PM
Which test would you suggest ? He is waiting for a possible black friday deal from dantelabs for himself but for his maternal grandfather something cheaper should do, he isn't his line in the end of the day .

In any case unfortunately it'll not help much with the truth as his direct male descendants aren't available for testing/easy to get hold of.

Don't buy Dante, lol, Facebook is full of people getting ripped off. Nebula or FTDNA.

Greekscholar
11-19-2020, 07:48 PM
Does MyHeritage post the ethnicity results before the match list? I believe this is how it works if you download a raw file from another site, and could also happen if you order directly from them. I don't remember exactly when we tested my Yia Yia with MyHeritage.

Does the pattern of not matching expected relatives extend to GEDmatch too?

lacreme
11-19-2020, 08:08 PM
Does MyHeritage post the ethnicity results before the match list? I believe this is how it works if you download a raw file from another site, and could also happen if you order directly from them. I don't remember exactly when we tested my Yia Yia with MyHeritage.

Does the pattern of not matching expected relatives extend to GEDmatch too?

if I remember correctly you can see separately the ethnicity results and the matches, whatever you like first . With a quick look, my friend's list doesn't share anyone with his maternal granfather's list. As for the Gedmatch matches, his (grandfather) kit is not ready yet for one to many comparisons but on one to one test with my friend he doesn't have any shared SNPs ...

Sorcelow
11-19-2020, 08:22 PM
His results make sense for his ancestry. I ran his Dodecad K12b scores through the updated spreadsheet:

[1,] "Albanian_Laberia (N=2)" "2.0425"
[2,] "Greek_Thrace" "4.1715"
[3,] "Greek_Thessaly" "4.2741"
[4,] "Greek_Peloponnese" "4.8262"
[5,] "Greek_Northwest_Lakonia (N=9)" "5.3982"
[6,] "Albanian_Kosovo" "5.6331"
[7,] "Albanian_North" "6.3346"
[8,] "Italy_Lazio" "6.844"
[9,] "Turk_Macedonia" "7.0357"
[10,] "Italy_Marche" "7.7054"

In general, I've found that western Peloponnesians and Epirots score very similar in that they shift towards Albania because of their higher BarcinN scores. I dont think this necessarily means that they have significant Albanian ancestry, but rather I suspect a similar cline ran down the Pindus into the western Peloponnese in antiquity. Notice how distant he is from the Laconian average that I compiled. This is because Laconians have more Anatolian_BA admixture.

dosas
11-19-2020, 08:35 PM
What's your grandpa's last name. PM me and I will be able to provide more info.

lacreme
11-19-2020, 08:36 PM
Just read some reviews on dante labs...yikes ! Indeed a scam.



His results make sense for his ancestry. I ran his Dodecad K12b scores through the updated spreadsheet:

[1,] "Albanian_Laberia (N=2)" "2.0425"
[2,] "Greek_Thrace" "4.1715"
[3,] "Greek_Thessaly" "4.2741"
[4,] "Greek_Peloponnese" "4.8262"
[5,] "Greek_Northwest_Lakonia (N=9)" "5.3982"
[6,] "Albanian_Kosovo" "5.6331"
[7,] "Albanian_North" "6.3346"
[8,] "Italy_Lazio" "6.844"
[9,] "Turk_Macedonia" "7.0357"
[10,] "Italy_Marche" "7.7054"

In general, I've found that western Peloponnesians and Epirots score very similar in that they shift towards Albania because of their higher BarcinN scores. I dont think this necessarily means that they have significant Albanian ancestry, but rather I suspect a similar cline ran down the Pindus into the western Peloponnese in antiquity. Notice how distant he is from the Laconian average that I compiled. This is because Laconians have more Anatolian_BA admixture.

You may be right but in his case it may be more of the former, his Peloponnesian ancestors were all from/or close to the arvanite areas of Achaia after all

lacreme
11-19-2020, 08:36 PM
What's your grandpa's last name. PM me and I will be able to provide more info.

Pm will be sent asap
Thanks

Johnny ola
11-19-2020, 08:48 PM
Just read some reviews on dante labs...yikes ! Indeed a scam.




You may be right but in his case it may be more of the former, his pelopponesian ancestors were all from/or close to the arvanite areas of Achaia after all

I am not sure if he has Arvanites ancestry(he prolly might have) but the toponyms of the area,after the research i have done are quite Slavic-Vlach and its obvious also from the name of the village that you linked me.I am not sure if such toponyms arrived with Arvanites.You can find it out with surname and yDNA IMO nothing else.

Greekscholar
11-19-2020, 08:54 PM
if I remember correctly you can see separately the ethnicity results and the matches, whatever you like first . With a quick look, my friend's list doesn't share anyone with his maternal granfather's list. As for the Gedmatch matches, his (grandfather) kit is not ready yet for one to many comparisons but on one to one test with my friend he doesn't have any shared SNPs ...

That's likely a NPE type issue to be worked through then. Still, I wouldn't sound alarm bells until GEDmatch one to many confirms the same. Sometimes even 1 to 1 matching doesn't work with freshly uploaded kits. No need to worry until you can be sure you are looking at an NPE/bad kit upload/etc.

Johnny ola
11-19-2020, 09:02 PM
The name of the village is Tzetzevos or Tzetzevon and is prolly a Slavic word..Such toponyms took place with the arrival of Vlachs or Slavo-Vlachs.It is really hard to know specifically what populatons brought it but the oficcial name of the village is Cicevo.

Cicevo is a village/small city in modern North Macedonia.I suspect a Vlach or ArvanitoVlach migration or something related with Slavic.


https://www.google.com/maps/place/%CE%9A%CE%AF%CF%84%CF%83%CE%B5%CE%B2%CE%BF,+%CE%92 %CF%8C%CF%81%CE%B5%CE%B9%CE%B1+%CE%9C%CE%B1%CE%BA% CE%B5%CE%B4%CE%BF%CE%BD%CE%AF%CE%B1/@38.316659,23.1761203,4z/data=!4m5!3m4!1s0x1351363b02c7545b:0x8b535a61f565e bec!8m2!3d41.5129112!4d20.9525065

Johnny ola
11-19-2020, 09:03 PM
Also this might be helpful:



The name of the city in Macedonian and other South Slavic languages is Kičevo (Кичево). The name of the city in Albanian is Krov. It was originally known as Uskana among its Illyrian inhabitants. The city was later renamed by Slavs who migrated to the region in the 7th century AD. It is presumed that the present name of the town originates from the name of this settlement populated by the Slavic Brsjaci tribe.[3]

Kicevo was first mentioned as Uskana (Ωξάνα in Ancient Greek) in the reign of Perseus, king of Macedon during the Third Macedonian War (171-169 BC).[4] The next written record of the town did not come until 1018, under the name of Kitsabis or Kitsavis (sometimes slavicised as Kicavis), noted in one of the documents of the Byzantine emperor Basil II.[5] Under the rule of Prince Marko it was known as Katin Grad, because Marko's sister was named Katina.

lacreme
11-19-2020, 09:22 PM
Also this might be helpful:



The name of the city in Macedonian and other South Slavic languages is Kičevo (Кичево). The name of the city in Albanian is Krov. It was originally known as Uskana among its Illyrian inhabitants. The city was later renamed by Slavs who migrated to the region in the 7th century AD. It is presumed that the present name of the town originates from the name of this settlement populated by the Slavic Brsjaci tribe.[3]

Kicevo was first mentioned as Uskana (Ωξάνα in Ancient Greek) in the reign of Perseus, king of Macedon during the Third Macedonian War (171-169 BC).[4] The next written record of the town did not come until 1018, under the name of Kitsabis or Kitsavis (sometimes slavicised as Kicavis), noted in one of the documents of the Byzantine emperor Basil II.[5] Under the rule of Prince Marko it was known as Katin Grad, because Marko's sister was named Katina.

There is also Čečevo in Montenegro
https://mapcarta.com/19021512

as for the origin of the inhabitants, there is a great blog with a very through study about the percentage of Arvanites during the Greek revolution times in the areas of the first Greek state
http://kleftouria.blogspot.com/2008/04/1821-4.html

...and it has this to say based on the used sources


Ο Φωτάκος (3):
Προδοσία Νενέκου.
Ὁ Θεόδωρος Κολοκοτρώνης διωρίσθη ὑπὸ τοῦ ἀρχιστρατήγουΤσιούρτς γενικὸς ἀρχηγὸς τῶν Πελοπονννησιακῶν ὅπλων. Ἐν δὲ τῇ Ἀχαΐᾳ τότε τὸ προσκύνημα εἶχε
προχωρήσει, τῇ παρακινήσει τοῦ ἀναθεματισμένου Δημητρίου Νενέκου, καταγομένου ἀπὸ τὸ χωρίον Ζουμπάτα τῆς ἐπαρχίας Πατρῶν. Οἱ λοιποὶ ὅμως καπεταναῖοι καὶ
σύντροφοί του, ἤτοι οἱ Κοντογεωργακαῖοι, ὁ Σταμάτης Μποτιώτης, ὁ Χαρμπίλας, ὁ Γκολφῖνος Λουμπεστιάνος, πολλοὶ Τσετσεβίται, ὁ Κώστας Γκερμπεσιώτης, οἱ Ἁγιοβλασίται
ἀδελφοὶ Οἰκονομόπουλοι καὶ πολλοὶ ἄλλοι ἀπεσπάσθησαν ἀπὸ τὴν συντροφίαν των καὶ ἐπανῆλθαν εὐθὺς χωρὶς νὰ συγκοινωνήσουν μὲ τοὺς Τούρκους. Ἐν τούτοις
ὅμως ὅλοι σχεδὸν οἱ Ἀλβανοὶ τῶν χωρίων ἐκείνων ἤγοντο καὶ ἐφέροντο ὑπὸ τοῦ Νενέκου. Αὐτὸς δὲ ὁ Νενέκος παλαιότερα, καὶ πρὶν προσκυνήσῃ εἰς τοὺς Τούρκους ἦτο
ὑπὸ τὰς διαταγὰς τοῦ Βενιζέλου Ρούφου, διότι οἱ πρόκριτοι τῆς Ἀχαΐας δὲν παρῃτήθησαν ποτὲ ἀπὸ τὰ ὅπλα καὶ ἔνεκα τούτου εἰς τὴν ἐπαρχίαν ταύτην ὑπῆρχε πάντοτε
δυσαρέσκειαν μεταξὺ τῶν προκρίτων καὶ τῶν κλεφτοκαπεταναίων,περὶ τῆς ὁποίας ἤδη θέλομεν διηγηθῆ ὅλαὅσα συνέβησαν.



δὲ Κολοκοτρώνηςπάλιν διὰ τὸ γενόμενον τοῦτον χωρισμὸν εἰς μὲν τὰς Πάτρας διώρισε τοὺς ἀδελφοὺς Κουμανιωταίους,εἰς δὲ τὰ Καλάβρυτα τὸν Β. Πετιμεζᾶν καὶ τοὺς λοιποὺς ἀδελφούς του, καὶ εἰς τὴν Βοστίτσαν πρῶτον μὲν τὸν Δημήτριον Μελετόπουλον, δεύτερον δὲ τὸν Ἰωάννην Φεϊζόπουλον. Οἱ διορισμοὶ αὐτοὶ βεβαίως δὲν ἦσαν ἀρεστοὶ εἰς τὴν φατρίαν τῶν ἀρχόντων, ὡς τοῦτο ἐφανερώθη ἔπειτα, διότι οἱ Ἀλβανοὶ καπεταναῖοι, καὶ
ἰδίως ὁ Νενέκος, ὅστις καὶ ἀρχηγὸς ἐδείχθη ὅλων τῶν Τουρκοπροσκυνημένων, ἄρχισαν, ὡς εἴπαμεν, κρυφίως νὰ συνεννοῶνται μὲ τοὺς Τούρκους, οἱ δὲ προσκυνήσαντες
δὲν ἦσαν καθώς τινες λέγουσι, γενικῶς αἱ τρεῖς ἐπαρχίαι τῶν Πατρῶν, τῶν Καλαβρύτων καὶ τὴς Βοστίτσας, ἀλλὰ μόνον ὀλίγα χωρία καὶ ὀλίγα ἄτομα, καὶ τοῦτο διὰ τὸν
φόβον τῶν Ζουμπεταίων, διότι τὰ χωρία ταῦτα λέγονται Ζουμπατοχώρια, καὶ ἐπειδὴ ἐγνώριζαν τὴν Ἀλβανικὴν γλῶσσαν εὐκόλως συνεννοοῦντο καὶ ἐσυμβιβάζοντο μὲ
τοὺς Τούρκους καὶ εὐκολώτερον μὲ τοὺς Λαλαίους. Εἰς τὴν Πελοπόννησον καθ᾿ ὅλας σχεδὸν τὰς ἐπαρχίας κατοικοῦν πρὸ πολλῶν χρόνων ποῦ μὲν πολλοί, ποῦ δὲ ὀλίγοι
ἐκ τῆς φυλῆς τῶν Ἀλβανῶν, οἵτινες ἀκόμη καὶ σήμερον διασώζουν τὸ ξένον ἦθος, καὶ ἄσχετον μὲ τοὺς γνησίους Ἕλληνας. Οἱ δὲ ἄνθρωποι αὐτοὶ εὔκολα παραδίδονται εἰς
τὴν ὕλην, καὶ διὰ νὰ αἰσχροκερδήσουν προδίδουν τὰ πάντα.Τοιοῦτοι ἦσαν οἱ Ἕλληνες, οἵτινες παρεκινήθησαν ἀπὸ τὸν Δελῆ Ἀχμὲτ πασᾶν εἰς τὸ προσκύνημα· τὸν Τοῦρκον
τοῦτον, τοῦ ὁποῖου ἡ πονηρία, καὶ ἡ μεγάλη του κολακεία ἑνώθησαν μὲ την πλεονεξίαν τοῦ Νενέκου καὶ ἐτεχνάσθησαν μυρίους τρόπους καὶ μέσα ὅπως διαδώσουν τὸ προσκύνημα.

Σελ.399
(Για τον Νενέκο)
Διὰ δὲ τὴν ἀνδρείαν, τὴν ὁποίαν ἔδειξεν εἰς τὰς μάχας ἀπέκτησεν ὑπόληψιν παληκαριοῦ,
καὶ μεγάλην ἐπιρροὴν εἰς τοὺς Ἀλβανοὺς τῶν μερῶν ἐκείνων τῆς ἐπαρχίας Πατρῶν, καὶ ἔκτοτε πλέον ἔκαμεν ἔργον τὸ προσκύνημα. Οἱ δὲ Τοῦρκοι ἀφοῦ εἶδαν αὐτὸν πιστόν, τὸν ἐδέχθησαν, τὸν ἐκολάκευσαν τοῦ ἔδωκαν χρήματα καὶ ἄλλας πολλὰς ὠφελείας, τοῦ ἐχάρισαν ἄλογα καλά, ὑπεσχέθησαν γαίας καὶ ἀσυδοσίαν πρὸς αὐτὸν καὶ εἰς ὅλην τὴν γενεάν του κληρονομικῶς. Ὁ δὲ Ἰμβραὴμ προσέτι ἐπροκάλεσε καὶ φερμάνι παρὰ τοῦ Σουλτάνου, διὰ τοῦ ὁποίου ὠνομάσθη Μπέης Νενέκος.

Με το προσκύνημα λοιπόν των αρβανιτοχωρίων της Πάτρας άρχισαν οι Αρβανίτες να κατεβαίνουν από τα χωριά τους και να εκμεταλλεύονται τους ντόπιους.
Σελ.401
ἐπῆγεν ἕνα φόρτωμα ξύλα εἰς τὴν Πάτραν καὶ τὰ ἐπώλησε τέσσερα μπαρμπούτια. Ἄλλος δὲ πάλιν ἔλεγεν, ὅτι ὁ δεῖνα ἕνα ζευγάρι κοττόπουλα, καὶ τὰ ἔδωκε πέντε μπαρμπούτια, καὶ τέλος ἄλλος τοῦ ἄλλου διηγεῖτο πολλὰς ὠφελείας τοιουτοτρόπως, ὥστε τὰ ἐκεῖ Ἀλβανικὰ χωρία ἐτόλμησαν καὶ μετέφεραν ὅλα τὰ πρόβατά των πλησίον τοῦ φρουρίου τῆς πόλεως, ὅπου ηὗραν πολλὴν καὶ καλὴν βοσκήν, διότι ὁ τόπος ἦτο πολλὰ χρόνια χωρὶς ζῶα καὶ ἀπάτητος. Τοῦτο δὲ ἦτο πολὺ ὠφέλιμον εἰς τοὺς προσκυνήσαντας, καὶ ἐπροθυμοῦντο ποῖος ἐξ αύτῶν πρῶτος νὰ πλησιάσῃ τὴν στάνην του διὰ νὰ πωλῇ τὸ γάλα, καὶ ὅλην τὴν νομὴν τῶν προβάτων του περισσότερον. Ἐκτὸς δὲ τούτου, καὶ τὰ γυναικόπαιδά των ἀκόμη καὶ αὐτὰ κατέβησαν εἰς τὸν κάμπον, διότι ὁ Νενέκος τοὺς ὑπεσχέθη νὰ τοὺς δίδῃ σπόρον, καὶ τὰ ἄλλα χρήσιμα διὰ νὰ γεωργοῦν τὴν γῆν. Οὕτω δὲ τότε οἱ Τοῦρκοι εἶχαν τούτους τοὺς προσκυνήσαντας ῥαγιάδες πραγματικούς, καὶ ὁ Δελῆ Ἀχμὲτ πασᾶς ἐξέδωκεν αὐστηρὰν διαταγήν, ὥστε κανεὶς Τοῦρκος νὰ μὴ πειράξῃ ῥαγιάν καὶ γεννηθῇ τὸ παραμικρὸν παράπονον, διότι ὁ Τοῦρκος αὐτὸς θὰ ᾖναι πάραυτα κρεμασμένος, καὶ διὰ νὰ ἐνθαρρύνῃ τοὺς ῥαγιάδες περισσότερον ἐσύναξεν ὅλους τοὺς ἄνδρας καὶ τοὺς ἔκαμε στρατιώτας ὑπὸ μισθόν.

Johnny ola
11-19-2020, 09:34 PM
There is also Čečevo in Montenegro
https://mapcarta.com/19021512

as for the origin of the inhabitants, there is a great blog with a very through study about the percentage of Arvanites during the Greek revolution times in the areas of the first Greek state
http://kleftouria.blogspot.com/2008/04/1821-4.html

...and it has this to say based on the used sources


Ο Φωτάκος (3):
Προδοσία Νενέκου.
Ὁ Θεόδωρος Κολοκοτρώνης διωρίσθη ὑπὸ τοῦ ἀρχιστρατήγουΤσιούρτς γενικὸς ἀρχηγὸς τῶν Πελοπονννησιακῶν ὅπλων. Ἐν δὲ τῇ Ἀχαΐᾳ τότε τὸ προσκύνημα εἶχε
προχωρήσει, τῇ παρακινήσει τοῦ ἀναθεματισμένου Δημητρίου Νενέκου, καταγομένου ἀπὸ τὸ χωρίον Ζουμπάτα τῆς ἐπαρχίας Πατρῶν. Οἱ λοιποὶ ὅμως καπεταναῖοι καὶ
σύντροφοί του, ἤτοι οἱ Κοντογεωργακαῖοι, ὁ Σταμάτης Μποτιώτης, ὁ Χαρμπίλας, ὁ Γκολφῖνος Λουμπεστιάνος, πολλοὶ Τσετσεβίται, ὁ Κώστας Γκερμπεσιώτης, οἱ Ἁγιοβλασίται
ἀδελφοὶ Οἰκονομόπουλοι καὶ πολλοὶ ἄλλοι ἀπεσπάσθησαν ἀπὸ τὴν συντροφίαν των καὶ ἐπανῆλθαν εὐθὺς χωρὶς νὰ συγκοινωνήσουν μὲ τοὺς Τούρκους. Ἐν τούτοις
ὅμως ὅλοι σχεδὸν οἱ Ἀλβανοὶ τῶν χωρίων ἐκείνων ἤγοντο καὶ ἐφέροντο ὑπὸ τοῦ Νενέκου. Αὐτὸς δὲ ὁ Νενέκος παλαιότερα, καὶ πρὶν προσκυνήσῃ εἰς τοὺς Τούρκους ἦτο
ὑπὸ τὰς διαταγὰς τοῦ Βενιζέλου Ρούφου, διότι οἱ πρόκριτοι τῆς Ἀχαΐας δὲν παρῃτήθησαν ποτὲ ἀπὸ τὰ ὅπλα καὶ ἔνεκα τούτου εἰς τὴν ἐπαρχίαν ταύτην ὑπῆρχε πάντοτε
δυσαρέσκειαν μεταξὺ τῶν προκρίτων καὶ τῶν κλεφτοκαπεταναίων,περὶ τῆς ὁποίας ἤδη θέλομεν διηγηθῆ ὅλαὅσα συνέβησαν.



δὲ Κολοκοτρώνηςπάλιν διὰ τὸ γενόμενον τοῦτον χωρισμὸν εἰς μὲν τὰς Πάτρας διώρισε τοὺς ἀδελφοὺς Κουμανιωταίους,εἰς δὲ τὰ Καλάβρυτα τὸν Β. Πετιμεζᾶν καὶ τοὺς λοιποὺς ἀδελφούς του, καὶ εἰς τὴν Βοστίτσαν πρῶτον μὲν τὸν Δημήτριον Μελετόπουλον, δεύτερον δὲ τὸν Ἰωάννην Φεϊζόπουλον. Οἱ διορισμοὶ αὐτοὶ βεβαίως δὲν ἦσαν ἀρεστοὶ εἰς τὴν φατρίαν τῶν ἀρχόντων, ὡς τοῦτο ἐφανερώθη ἔπειτα, διότι οἱ Ἀλβανοὶ καπεταναῖοι, καὶ
ἰδίως ὁ Νενέκος, ὅστις καὶ ἀρχηγὸς ἐδείχθη ὅλων τῶν Τουρκοπροσκυνημένων, ἄρχισαν, ὡς εἴπαμεν, κρυφίως νὰ συνεννοῶνται μὲ τοὺς Τούρκους, οἱ δὲ προσκυνήσαντες
δὲν ἦσαν καθώς τινες λέγουσι, γενικῶς αἱ τρεῖς ἐπαρχίαι τῶν Πατρῶν, τῶν Καλαβρύτων καὶ τὴς Βοστίτσας, ἀλλὰ μόνον ὀλίγα χωρία καὶ ὀλίγα ἄτομα, καὶ τοῦτο διὰ τὸν
φόβον τῶν Ζουμπεταίων, διότι τὰ χωρία ταῦτα λέγονται Ζουμπατοχώρια, καὶ ἐπειδὴ ἐγνώριζαν τὴν Ἀλβανικὴν γλῶσσαν εὐκόλως συνεννοοῦντο καὶ ἐσυμβιβάζοντο μὲ
τοὺς Τούρκους καὶ εὐκολώτερον μὲ τοὺς Λαλαίους. Εἰς τὴν Πελοπόννησον καθ᾿ ὅλας σχεδὸν τὰς ἐπαρχίας κατοικοῦν πρὸ πολλῶν χρόνων ποῦ μὲν πολλοί, ποῦ δὲ ὀλίγοι
ἐκ τῆς φυλῆς τῶν Ἀλβανῶν, οἵτινες ἀκόμη καὶ σήμερον διασώζουν τὸ ξένον ἦθος, καὶ ἄσχετον μὲ τοὺς γνησίους Ἕλληνας. Οἱ δὲ ἄνθρωποι αὐτοὶ εὔκολα παραδίδονται εἰς
τὴν ὕλην, καὶ διὰ νὰ αἰσχροκερδήσουν προδίδουν τὰ πάντα.Τοιοῦτοι ἦσαν οἱ Ἕλληνες, οἵτινες παρεκινήθησαν ἀπὸ τὸν Δελῆ Ἀχμὲτ πασᾶν εἰς τὸ προσκύνημα· τὸν Τοῦρκον
τοῦτον, τοῦ ὁποῖου ἡ πονηρία, καὶ ἡ μεγάλη του κολακεία ἑνώθησαν μὲ την πλεονεξίαν τοῦ Νενέκου καὶ ἐτεχνάσθησαν μυρίους τρόπους καὶ μέσα ὅπως διαδώσουν τὸ προσκύνημα.

Σελ.399
(Για τον Νενέκο…)
Διὰ δὲ τὴν ἀνδρείαν, τὴν ὁποίαν ἔδειξεν εἰς τὰς μάχας ἀπέκτησεν ὑπόληψιν παληκαριοῦ,
καὶ μεγάλην ἐπιρροὴν εἰς τοὺς Ἀλβανοὺς τῶν μερῶν ἐκείνων τῆς ἐπαρχίας Πατρῶν, καὶ ἔκτοτε πλέον ἔκαμεν ἔργον τὸ προσκύνημα. Οἱ δὲ Τοῦρκοι ἀφοῦ εἶδαν αὐτὸν πιστόν, τὸν ἐδέχθησαν, τὸν ἐκολάκευσαν τοῦ ἔδωκαν χρήματα καὶ ἄλλας πολλὰς ὠφελείας, τοῦ ἐχάρισαν ἄλογα καλά, ὑπεσχέθησαν γαίας καὶ ἀσυδοσίαν πρὸς αὐτὸν καὶ εἰς ὅλην τὴν γενεάν του κληρονομικῶς. Ὁ δὲ Ἰμβραὴμ προσέτι ἐπροκάλεσε καὶ φερμάνι παρὰ τοῦ Σουλτάνου, διὰ τοῦ ὁποίου ὠνομάσθη Μπέης – Νενέκος.

Με το προσκύνημα λοιπόν των αρβανιτοχωρίων της Πάτρας άρχισαν οι Αρβανίτες να κατεβαίνουν από τα χωριά τους και να εκμεταλλεύονται τους ντόπιους….
Σελ.401
… ἐπῆγεν ἕνα φόρτωμα ξύλα εἰς τὴν Πάτραν καὶ τὰ ἐπώλησε τέσσερα μπαρμπούτια. Ἄλλος δὲ πάλιν ἔλεγεν, ὅτι ὁ δεῖνα ἕνα ζευγάρι κοττόπουλα, καὶ τὰ ἔδωκε πέντε μπαρμπούτια, καὶ τέλος ἄλλος τοῦ ἄλλου διηγεῖτο πολλὰς ὠφελείας τοιουτοτρόπως, ὥστε τὰ ἐκεῖ Ἀλβανικὰ χωρία ἐτόλμησαν καὶ μετέφεραν ὅλα τὰ πρόβατά των πλησίον τοῦ φρουρίου τῆς πόλεως, ὅπου ηὗραν πολλὴν καὶ καλὴν βοσκήν, διότι ὁ τόπος ἦτο πολλὰ χρόνια χωρὶς ζῶα καὶ ἀπάτητος. Τοῦτο δὲ ἦτο πολὺ ὠφέλιμον εἰς τοὺς προσκυνήσαντας, καὶ ἐπροθυμοῦντο ποῖος ἐξ αύτῶν πρῶτος νὰ πλησιάσῃ τὴν στάνην του διὰ νὰ πωλῇ τὸ γάλα, καὶ ὅλην τὴν νομὴν τῶν προβάτων του περισσότερον. Ἐκτὸς δὲ τούτου, καὶ τὰ γυναικόπαιδά των ἀκόμη καὶ αὐτὰ κατέβησαν εἰς τὸν κάμπον, διότι ὁ Νενέκος τοὺς ὑπεσχέθη νὰ τοὺς δίδῃ σπόρον, καὶ τὰ ἄλλα χρήσιμα διὰ νὰ γεωργοῦν τὴν γῆν. Οὕτω δὲ τότε οἱ Τοῦρκοι εἶχαν τούτους τοὺς προσκυνήσαντας ῥαγιάδες πραγματικούς, καὶ ὁ Δελῆ Ἀχμὲτ πασᾶς ἐξέδωκεν αὐστηρὰν διαταγήν, ὥστε κανεὶς Τοῦρκος νὰ μὴ πειράξῃ ῥαγιάν καὶ γεννηθῇ τὸ παραμικρὸν παράπονον, διότι ὁ Τοῦρκος αὐτὸς θὰ ᾖναι πάραυτα κρεμασμένος, καὶ διὰ νὰ ἐνθαρρύνῃ τοὺς ῥαγιάδες περισσότερον ἐσύναξεν ὅλους τοὺς ἄνδρας καὶ τοὺς ἔκαμε στρατιώτας ὑπὸ μισθόν.




I see.Might be Arvanites or ArvanitoVlachs.Or maybe the village settled first by some type of Slavic folks and then later Arvanites arrived.Anyways,most toponyms in mainland Greece are like this pretty much ...its stupid to trying to found to whom its belong.I would sugget you to buy coordinates for G25(it will help a lot) and ofc to unlock the lineage of R1b if its possible,its worth it.

xripkan
11-19-2020, 09:51 PM
I see.Might be Arvanites or ArvanitoVlachs.Or maybe the village settled first by some type of Slavic folks and then later Arvanites arrived.Anyways,most toponyms in mainland Greece are like that pretty much ...its stupid to trying to found to whom its belong.I would sugget you to buy coordinates for G25(it will help a lot) and ofc to unlock the lineage of R1b if its possible,its worth it.

His lineage is from Lamia. He said he is 1/8 from Lamia from his paternal line. His autosomal though indicates higher both Barcin and Steppe than what a typical Peloponnesian scores.

Johnny ola
11-19-2020, 10:04 PM
His lineage is from Lamia. He said he is 1/8 from Lamia from his paternal line. His autosomal though indicates higher both Barcin and Steppe than what a typical Peloponnesian scores.

Oups yes.I forgot his Lamia part.I think people from North Peloponnesus are a little bit closer to central and western Greeks.But Peloponnesus in general is not a homogenous area.We should not categorize a big province into to a specific genetic clushter.Sometimes it depends individual.Also there are Peloponnesians with high Barcin we have seen the G25 samples for example being quite ANF admixed.So,his lineage have to do with the area of Lamia.That is making it more complicated since Lamia is not a village.

lacreme
11-19-2020, 10:15 PM
I see.Might be Arvanites or ArvanitoVlachs.Or maybe the village settled first by some type of Slavic folks and then later Arvanites arrived.Anyways,most toponyms in mainland Greece are like this pretty much ...its stupid to trying to found to whom its belong.I would sugget you to buy coordinates for G25(it will help a lot) and ofc to unlock the lineage of R1b if its possible,its worth it.

The Greek toponyms are quite messy... for example the birthplace of this person,one of the 7 tsetsevochoria,had a slavic name until recently...yet it's probably a relatively recent settlement established in the 18th century at the earliest. The name obviously an indirect influence either through their dialect or from possible migrants from other parts of the country, definitely one given long after any original slavs were absorbed in the general population.

He already bought the G25 coordinates but he doesn't have them yet.


Oups yes.I forgot his Lamia part.I think people from North Peloponnesus are a little bit closer to central and western Greeks.But Peloponnesus in general is not a homogenous area.We should not categorize a big province into to a specific genetic clushter.Sometimes it depends individual.Also there are Peloponnesians with high Barcin we have seen the G25 samples for example being quite ANF admixed.So,his lineage have to do with the area of Lamia.That is making it more complicated since Lamia is not a village.

Somewhere around Lamia , not from Lamia necessarily

Chatzianastasoglou
11-19-2020, 10:15 PM
Slavic toponyms don't exclude Arvanite origins. For example in the wider region of Souli in Epirus many non Greek toponyms (before the Metaxas reform) were of Slavic origin, yet none there spoke Slavic. Nevertheless, the genetical Slavic input might be higher than we think. The only place in Greece where orthodox Slavs preserved their language, is Macedonia. Everywhere else they were linguistically assimilated long before the foundation of the modern Greek state. Actually we know nothing about them. It is very much possible that Slavs were not only Hellenized but also Albanized (within Greece).

DgidguBidgu
11-19-2020, 10:21 PM
Slavic toponyms don't exclude Arvanite origins. For example in the wider region of Souli in Epirus many non Greek toponyms (before the Metaxas reform) were of Slavic origin, yet none there spoke Slavic. Nevertheless, the genetical Slavic input might be higher than we think. The only place in Greece where orthodox Slavs preserved their language, is Macedonia. Everywhere else they were linguistically assimilated long before the foundation of the modern Greek state. Actually we know nothing about them. It is very much possible that Slavs were not only Hellenized but also Albanized (within Greece).

More precisely, all today's Europeans were IE from the South Slavs through their participation in their gene pool and their cultural influence.

Johnny ola
11-19-2020, 10:27 PM
Slavic toponyms don't exclude Arvanite origins. For example in the wider region of Souli in Epirus many non Greek toponyms (before the Metaxas reform) were of Slavic origin, yet none there spoke Slavic. Nevertheless, the genetical Slavic input might be higher than we think. The only place in Greece where orthodox Slavs preserved their language, is Macedonia. Everywhere else they were linguistically assimilated long before the foundation of the modern Greek state. Actually we know nothing about them. It is very much possible that Slavs were not only Hellenized but also Albanized (within Greece).

Toponyms are not going hand by hand with languages.That is well known.Epirus is probably the region with the most Slavic toponyms from any other Greek province,still in terms of autosomal DNA they are more southern than Macedonian and Thessalian Greeks.Actually most of them are Vlach(Aromanian) and Albanian speakers.The point is that Vlachs and Slavs and also Albanians were people quite close that influenced each other.And when these people started to migrating to mainland they brought with them similar toponyms,names-surnames,habits,traditions etc.

I have a serious question for you.Can you tell me to whom Foustanela belongs to?To Vlachs,Arvanites,Slavs,Karagounides,Sarakatsanis?? ?Its obvious that these people were very close and in contact with each other from middle ages to Ottoman times.There are not big diffrences also in their autosomal DNA.We see that South Slavs,Albanians,Vlachs and the majority of mainland Greeks forming their own clushter.So,trying to found to whom toponyms belongs...it will be a difficult and complex situation.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fustanella

lacreme
11-19-2020, 10:32 PM
Just got his G25 coordinates !

Chris_maternal_grandpa_scaled,0.10927,0.145221,0.0 12445,-0.019057,0.027697,-0.010319,0.004465,-0.003461,-0.000409,0.018406,-0.00341,0.006744,-0.013974,0.006744,-0.019815,-0.007027,-0.004694,0.006714,0.004902,-0.011005,-0.010107,0.002968,0.006162,0.005422,0.003233

Chris_maternal_grandpa,0.0096,0.0143,0.0033,-0.0059,0.009,-0.0037,0.0019,-0.0015,-0.0002,0.0101,-0.0021,0.0045,-0.0094,0.0049,-0.0146,-0.0053,-0.0036,0.0053,0.0039,-0.0088,-0.0081,0.0024,0.005,0.0045,0.0027

Target: Chris_maternal_grandpa
Distance: 3.2954% / 0.03295388
45.0 Anatolia_Barcin_N
34.6 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
17.8 Anatolia_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N
1.6 ETH_4500BP
0.6 Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kaps
0.4 WHG

Chatzianastasoglou
11-19-2020, 10:43 PM
Toponyms are not going hand by hand with languages.That is well known.Epirus is probably the region with the most Slavic toponyms from any other Greek province,still in terms of autosomal DNA they are more southern than Macedonian and Thessalian Greeks.Actually most of them are Vlach(Aromanian) and Albanian speakers.The point is that Vlachs and Slavs and also Albanians were people quite close that influenced each other.And when these people started to migrating to mainland they brought with them similar toponyms,names-surnames,habits,traditions etc.

I have a serious question for you.Can you tell me to whom Foustanela belongs to?To Vlachs,Arvanites,Slavs,Karagounides,Sarakatsanis?? ?Its obvious that these people were very close and in contact with each other from middle ages to Ottoman times.There are not big diffrences also in their autosomal DNA.We see that South Slavs,Albanians,Vlachs and the majority of mainland Greeks forming their own clushter.So,trying to found to whom toponyms belongs...it will be a difficult and complex situation.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fustanella
The vast majority of Epirotes is originally Greek speaking, the Albanian and Vlach speakers are minorities in the western part of Epirus along the Ionian sea and of course there are the Vlachs in and around Metsovo. But it's true that, judging from what we know till now, mainland Greeks, Albanians and southern Slavs (south of Serbia) seem to be genetically quite close to each other. The foustanella might have been a good hint for that

23abc
11-19-2020, 11:09 PM
Just got his G25 coordinates !

Chris_maternal_grandpa_scaled,0.10927,0.145221,0.0 12445,-0.019057,0.027697,-0.010319,0.004465,-0.003461,-0.000409,0.018406,-0.00341,0.006744,-0.013974,0.006744,-0.019815,-0.007027,-0.004694,0.006714,0.004902,-0.011005,-0.010107,0.002968,0.006162,0.005422,0.003233

Chris_maternal_grandpa,0.0096,0.0143,0.0033,-0.0059,0.009,-0.0037,0.0019,-0.0015,-0.0002,0.0101,-0.0021,0.0045,-0.0094,0.0049,-0.0146,-0.0053,-0.0036,0.0053,0.0039,-0.0088,-0.0081,0.0024,0.005,0.0045,0.0027

Target: Chris_maternal_grandpa
Distance: 3.2954% / 0.03295388
45.0 Anatolia_Barcin_N
34.6 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
17.8 Anatolia_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N
1.6 ETH_4500BP
0.6 Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kaps
0.4 WHG

I wonder if the SSA is real or not?

Distance: 2.1794% / 0.02179420
Target: Chris_maternal_grandpa_scaled
60.5 Albanian
38.3 Greek_Thessaly
1.2 Dinka

Johnny ola
11-19-2020, 11:16 PM
The vast majority of Epirotes is originally Greek speaking, the Albanian and Vlach speakers are minorities in the western part of Epirus along the Ionian sea and of course there are the Vlachs in and around Metsovo. But it's true that, judging from what we know till now, mainland Greeks, Albanians and southern Slavs (south of Serbia) seem to be genetically quite close to each other. The foustanella might have been a good hint for that

First of all i am not talking for the current situation in terms who's albanian,vlach and slavic speaker etc.This specific issue belongs to the past and its dead.Epirus btw had Albanian speakers(look at Souli).Most of these speakers have become a minority everywhere.Even now in Macedonia you will not find Slavophones or even if you find some,they will be very old people.Like you are not going to find Turkophones from Asia minor.Toponyms confirmed settlement,that's for sure and no1s can deny it.You don't have a Slavic or a Vlach village-small town from nowhere.It means some people passed from there and name it.But these people might have been bilingual talking both the Greek and also some other dialect.Like with some Turkophones from Asia minor.My point is that toponyms do not going always hand by hand with genetics or languages.Epirus is full of Slavic and Vlach toponyms compared to other areas but still genetically from kits we have seen they are not like Thessalians or Greek Macedonians who themselves might have been more Greek speaking.As for Macedonia and the orthodox Slavs that you mention,keep in mind that these people can be found in specific areas.We dont have Slavophones in Chalkidiki, in Katerini,or in Kavala.I am not sure how these people coming in terms of autosomal DNA but what i know for sure it is that they have never speak Slavic.SlavoMacedonians are more likely to be found in Northwest Macedonia,in the borders with north Macedonia and to borders with Bulgaria.Some specific villages and areas outside of Thessaloniki as well.But inclunding all Macedonians as Slavic speakers is completely wrong.We have to distinguish DNA,toponyms and dialects.As for Foustanella to me it seems more related with ArvanitoVlachs.

xripkan
11-19-2020, 11:20 PM
Just got his G25 coordinates !

Chris_maternal_grandpa_scaled,0.10927,0.145221,0.0 12445,-0.019057,0.027697,-0.010319,0.004465,-0.003461,-0.000409,0.018406,-0.00341,0.006744,-0.013974,0.006744,-0.019815,-0.007027,-0.004694,0.006714,0.004902,-0.011005,-0.010107,0.002968,0.006162,0.005422,0.003233

Chris_maternal_grandpa,0.0096,0.0143,0.0033,-0.0059,0.009,-0.0037,0.0019,-0.0015,-0.0002,0.0101,-0.0021,0.0045,-0.0094,0.0049,-0.0146,-0.0053,-0.0036,0.0053,0.0039,-0.0088,-0.0081,0.0024,0.005,0.0045,0.0027

Target: Chris_maternal_grandpa
Distance: 3.2954% / 0.03295388
45.0 Anatolia_Barcin_N
34.6 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
17.8 Anatolia_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N
1.6 ETH_4500BP
0.6 Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kaps
0.4 WHG

Anatolian Farmer + Steppe(higher than Peloponnesian average) combination. Almost no West Asian input is visible. He scores SSA in gedmatch and Myherotage too. It makes me wonder.

xripkan
11-19-2020, 11:26 PM
His results make sense for his ancestry. I ran his Dodecad K12b scores through the updated spreadsheet:

[1,] "Albanian_Laberia (N=2)" "2.0425"
[2,] "Greek_Thrace" "4.1715"
[3,] "Greek_Thessaly" "4.2741"
[4,] "Greek_Peloponnese" "4.8262"
[5,] "Greek_Northwest_Lakonia (N=9)" "5.3982"
[6,] "Albanian_Kosovo" "5.6331"
[7,] "Albanian_North" "6.3346"
[8,] "Italy_Lazio" "6.844"
[9,] "Turk_Macedonia" "7.0357"
[10,] "Italy_Marche" "7.7054"

In general, I've found that western Peloponnesians and Epirots score very similar in that they shift towards Albania because of their higher BarcinN scores. I dont think this necessarily means that they have significant Albanian ancestry, but rather I suspect a similar cline ran down the Pindus into the western Peloponnese in antiquity. Notice how distant he is from the Laconian average that I compiled. This is because Laconians have more Anatolian_BA admixture.

Which are the Western Peloponnesian samples? Could you PM me? I ask because in my case it is not true.

Johnny ola
11-19-2020, 11:28 PM
Peloponnesians for some reason are very likely to score some weird exotic admixtures.That guy Markos was also ssa or east asian admixed if i remember well.

Chatzianastasoglou
11-19-2020, 11:29 PM
First of all i am not talking for the current situation in terms who's albanian,vlach and slavic speaker etc.This specific issue belongs to the past and its dead.Epirus btw had Albanian speakers(look at Souli).Most of these speakers have become a minority everywhere.Even now in Macedonia you will not find Slavophones or even if you find some,they will be very old people.Like you are not going to find Turkophones from Asia minor.Toponyms confirmed settlement,that's for sure and no1s can deny it.You don't have a Slavic or a Vlach village-small town from nowhere.It means some people passed from there and name it.But these people might have been bilingual talking both the Greek and also some other dialect.Like with some Turkophones from Asia minor.My point is that toponyms do not going always hand by hand with genetics or languages.Epirus is full of Slavic and Vlach toponyms compared to other areas but still genetically from kits we have seen they are not like Thessalians or Greek Macedonians who themselves might have been more Greek speaking.As for Macedonia and the orthodox Slavs that you mention,keep in mind that these people can be found in specific areas.We dont have Slavophones in Chalkidiki, in Katerini,or in Kavala.I am not sure how these people coming in terms of autosomal DNA but what i know for sure it is that they have never speak Slavic.SlavoMacedonians are more likely to be found in Northwest Macedonia,in the borders with north Macedonia and to borders with Bulgaria.Some specific villages and areas outside of Thessaloniki as well.But inclunding all Macedonians as Slavic speakers is completely wrong.We have to distinguish DNA,toponyms and dialects.As for Foustanella to me it seems more related with ArvanitoVlachs.
The Albanian and vlach speakers have never been a majority in Epirus. Epirotes are not hellenized arvanites vlachs and Slavs. At least history doesn’t suggest it. I don’t think we have many epirote samples, it’s anyway the Greek region with the fewest samples. Unfortunately, because I’m a half epirote myself

Johnny ola
11-19-2020, 11:35 PM
The Albanian and vlach speakers have never been a majority in Epirus. Epirotes are not hellenized arvanites vlachs and Slavs. At least history doesn’t suggest it. I don’t think we have many epirote samples, it’s anyway the Greek region with the fewest samples. Unfortunately, because I’m a half epirote myself

Where exactly do you see me saying that Epirotes are hellenized Vlachs and Albanians?I said that Epirus is the region with the most Slavic and Vlach toponyms and that is true.I am searching for these issues for ages and i know them quite well.Also,i told you above that from kits i have seen Epirotes are pretty much like south Albanians and central Greeks in terms of autosomal DNA.As for dialects if you read carefully to my above comment i am writting that there were people being bilingual,talking both Greek and other dialects(Albanian,Slavic,Aromanian or whatever).Like many Asia minor Greeks from Costantinoupoli and Smyrna who were Turkish and Greek speakers.But toponyms are toponyms and you cannot avoid them.If a village like our friend Lacreme has a Slavic name,it means some people with Slavic background passed and name it.Or you think somehow from the sky the village received a name with foreign meaning.Come on... you are a smart guy!!!!

Sorcelow
11-19-2020, 11:38 PM
Which are the Western Peloponnesian samples? Could you PM me? I ask because in my case it is not true.

What part of the Peloponnese are you from? I havent compiled an average for western Peloponnesians but the Messinians that I’ve seen on gedmatch have less west asian admixture than Laconians. Kleenex, a member on this forum, is one example that comes to mind.

Johnny ola
11-19-2020, 11:38 PM
I wonder if the SSA is real or not?

Distance: 2.1794% / 0.02179420
Target: Chris_maternal_grandpa_scaled
60.5 Albanian
38.3 Greek_Thessaly
1.2 Dinka

Can you do your magics and subtract or compare his results with Greek Thessaly or with the samples from Albania.

Chatzianastasoglou
11-19-2020, 11:42 PM
Where exactly do you see me saying that Epirotes are hellenized Vlachs and Albanians?I said that Epirus is the region with the most Slavic and Vlach toponyms and that is true.I am searching for these issues for ages and i know them quite well.Also,i told you above that from kits i have seen Epirotes are pretty much like south Albanians and central Greeks in terms of autosomal DNA.As for dialects if you read carefully to my above comment i am writting that there were people being bilingual,talking both Greek and other dialects(Albanian,Slavic,Aromanian or whatever).Like many Asia minor Greeks from Costantinoupoli and Smyrna who were Turkish and Greek speakers.But toponyms are toponyms and you cannot avoid them.If a village like our friend Lacreme has a Slavic name,it means some people with Slavic background passed and name it.Or you think somehow from the sky the village received a name with foreign meaning.Come on... you are a smart guy!!!!
You wrote you are „not talking for the current situation“ as if the situation was a different one in past. And i never argued the Slavic Input in Epirus

Dorian9
11-19-2020, 11:44 PM
In general, I've found that western Peloponnesians and Epirots score very similar in that they shift towards Albania because of their higher BarcinN scores. I dont think this necessarily means that they have significant Albanian ancestry, but rather I suspect a similar cline ran down the Pindus into the western Peloponnese in antiquity. Notice how distant he is from the Laconian average that I compiled. This is because Laconians have more Anatolian_BA admixture.

I think this cline with some Western/North Peloponnesians(in cases someone isn't aware of any Arvanite background or they're not close to such settlements) could rather be the result of more "recent" movements from other parts of Greece like Epirus ,Central & Thessaly , (as you can see in below links)..

http://tryginou.blogspot.com/2008/09/blog-post.html
http://valta-trifilias.blogspot.com/2012/09/blog-post_25.html
https://www.arkadiapress.gr/%CE%B9%CF%83%CF%84%CE%BF%CF%81%CE%AF%CE%B1/15268-%CF%84%CF%83%CE%BF%CF%80%CE%AC%CE%BD%CE%B7%CE%B4%C E%B5%CF%82-%CF%84%CE%B7%CF%82-%CE%B1%CF%81%CE%BA%CE%B1%CE%B4%CE%AF%CE%B1%CF%82-%CF%83%CF%84%CE%B1-%CF%87%CE%B5%CE%B9%CE%BC%CE%B1%CE%B4%CE%B9%CE%AC-%CF%84%CE%B7%CF%82-%CE%BC%CE%B5%CF%83%CF%83%CE%B7%CE%BD%CE%AF%CE%B1%C F%82.html
https://www.facebook.com/pg/%CE%9D%CF%8E%CE%BD%CE%B1%CE%BA%CF%81%CE%B9%CF%82-%CE%AE-%CE%9A%CE%BB%CE%BF%CF%85%CE%BA%CE%B9%CE%BD%CE%BF%C F%87%CF%8E%CF%81%CE%B9%CE%B1-%CE%91%CF%87%CE%B1%CE%AF%CE%B1%CF%82-1693939794176815/photos/?tab=album&album_id=1694260474144747

As an example ,here's a Messinian guy who has done genealogy research , has this type of deeper ancestries and still has the shift.
https://i.postimg.cc/Hn7bkfjL/s.jpg
https://i.postimg.cc/W3L1L3xt/ff.png (https://postimages.org/)

I think generally it's very unlikely that one can guess genetics of regions in antiquity based on modern ones.

Johnny ola
11-19-2020, 11:50 PM
You wrote you are „not talking for the current situation“ as if the situation was a different one in past. And i never argued the Slavic Input in Epirus

Because i have no idea what languages used to been talking in Greek mainland and whose people were Slavic,Vlach or Albanian speakers and who from them were bilingual.Especially under Ottoman empire.There are not records for what it was happening before the war independence.We have only records from minorities and people who still even the last 50 years(lets say) used to speak such dialects.Same situation with Anatolian Greeks.Many of them were fully Turkish speakers but when they arrived to Greece they switch to Greek immediately.That's why i am telling you that toponyms and languages are not always going hand with hand.Genetics as well.

Sorcelow
11-19-2020, 11:52 PM
If anyone is interested, I created my own G25 Peloponnese average, which is below. Unfortunately, the original average is composed of three results, so I took upon myself to create this. Ideally, I would like to break the average down into sub-regions, since the Peloponnese is quite diverse, but we cant do that a the moment because of the paucity of samples

This new average adds the results of myself and my mother, TonyC, and Chris (Even though I know he is not fully Peloponnesian)

Greek_Peloponnese (N=7) 0.117237829,0.144930588,0.007488591,-0.026855156,0.017453678,-0.008964444,0.002820044,-0.001911891,-0.000438211,0.016791788,-0.000464094,0.003425629,-0.006647143,0.008316451,-0.016170032,-0.002784569,0.004172326,0.00023508,0.005117765,-0.006824451,-0.007076824,0.002667421,0.004260777,0.004182989,-0.001881784

xripkan
11-19-2020, 11:57 PM
What part of the Peloponnese are you from? I havent compiled an average for western Peloponnesians but the Messinians that I’ve seen on gedmatch have less west asian admixture than Laconians. Kleenex, a member on this forum, is one example that comes to mind.

I am 1/2 Messinian, 1/4 Arcadian (Southern part of the region) and 1/4 Western Thessaly. I have noticed that I score more West Asian than other Peloponnesians despite my Thessalian ancestry. I definitely lack this West Med shift. So I doubt Western Peloponnese is more Barcin admixed in general. I suspect that in some parts of Peloponnese there is a still a small Anatolian input from the Byzantine era.

Sorcelow
11-20-2020, 12:00 AM
I am 1/2 Messinian, 1/4 Arcadian (Southern part of the region) and 1/4 Western Thessaly. I have noticed that I score more West Asian than other Peloponnesians despite my Thessalian ancestry. I definitely lack this West Med shift. So I doubt Western Peloponnese is more Barcin admixed in general. I suspect that in some parts of Peloponnese there is a still a small Anatolian input from the Byzantine era.

Do you mind sharing your coordinates?

xripkan
11-20-2020, 12:05 AM
Do you mind sharing your coordinates?

Christos_scaled,0.118376,0.137096,0.005657,-0.024225,0.01908,-0.008925,0.0047,0.008077,-0.003681,0.020593,-0.002111,0.002398,0.001338,0.008945,-0.023615,-0.000265,0.005085,0.000127,0.003645,-0.002751,-0.00861,0,-0.006409,0.006145,-0.001557

Johnny ola
11-20-2020, 12:12 AM
Lacreme with exception the exotic SSA admixture(no idea where it is coming from).The rest of the autosomal seems to be kinda close to Albanians.There is also some limited Anatolian like admixture.

Target: Chris_maternal_grandpa_scaled
Distance: 1.8491% / 0.01849111
59.0 Albanian
25.6 Italian_Lombardy
8.8 Italian_Apulia
3.0 Greek_Crete
2.2 Greek_Trabzon
1.0 Ju_hoan_North
0.2 Koinanbe
0.2 Luo



Target: Chris_maternal_grandpa_scaled
Distance: 1.1910% / 0.01191003
26.0 HUN_MA_Szolad_o1
21.0 GRC_Minoan_Lassithi
12.4 Baltic_LTU_BA
7.0 TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA_low_res
6.0 UKR_Srubnaya_MLBA
5.8 SVK_Poprad_MA
5.2 UKR_N_o
4.4 DEU_MA_o
3.8 TKM_Parkhai_MBA
3.6 VK2020_RUS_Kurevanikha_VA
1.6 DEU_Karsdorf_LN
1.0 ZAF_2000BP
0.6 NPL_Samdzong_1500BP
0.6 TUR_Kumtepe_N_low_res
0.6 VUT_150BP_all
0.2 USA_NM_Chaco
0.2 ZAF_1200BP


Without the Albanian sample:

Target: Chris_maternal_grandpa_scaled
Distance: 2.0631% / 0.02063143
29.0 Italian_Lombardy
28.8 Greek_Thessaly
27.8 Greek_Central_Macedonia
11.6 Greek_Crete
1.0 Ju_hoan_North
1.0 Sardinian
0.6 Koinanbe
0.2 Bantu_Kenya

xripkan
11-20-2020, 12:30 AM
If anyone is interested, I created my own G25 Peloponnese average, which is below. Unfortunately, the original average is composed of three results, so I took upon myself to create this. Ideally, I would like to break the average down into sub-regions, since the Peloponnese is quite diverse, but we cant do that a the moment because of the paucity of samples

This new average adds the results of myself and my mother, TonyC, and Chris (Even though I know he is not fully Peloponnesian)

Greek_Peloponnese (N=7) 0.117237829,0.144930588,0.007488591,-0.026855156,0.017453678,-0.008964444,0.002820044,-0.001911891,-0.000438211,0.016791788,-0.000464094,0.003425629,-0.006647143,0.008316451,-0.016170032,-0.002784569,0.004172326,0.00023508,0.005117765,-0.006824451,-0.007076824,0.002667421,0.004260777,0.004182989,-0.001881784

More northern than Greek Peloponnese reference despite Chris plots close to Smyrna due to his Cretan and Western Anatolian ancestry. You could add Markos mom as well who is fully Peloponnesian.

lacreme
11-20-2020, 12:38 AM
Does anyone know how to substract a piece of someone's ancestry ? If so, even if there is NPE involved, can someone "remove" from my friend his maternal grandfather ? He wants to check if he lands to an expected point based on the rest of his ancestry.

His coordinates
Chris_scaled,0.114961,0.146236,-0.007165,-0.030685,0.012002,-0.008646,0.003055,0.000923,-0.003068,0.016583,0.00065,0.006145,-0.002973,0.000413,-0.013301,0.001989,0.005998,0.000887,0.001257,-0.004377,-0.011979,-0.005688,-0.00419,0.00253,-0.004311

His maternal grandfather's coordinates are the ones provided a few posts back.

Thanks!

xripkan
11-20-2020, 12:40 AM
Does anyone know how to substract a piece of someone's ancestry ? If so, even if there is NPE involved, can someone "remove" from my friend his maternal grandfather ? He wants to check if he lands to an expected point based on the rest of his ancestry.

His coordinates
Chris_scaled,0.114961,0.146236,-0.007165,-0.030685,0.012002,-0.008646,0.003055,0.000923,-0.003068,0.016583,0.00065,0.006145,-0.002973,0.000413,-0.013301,0.001989,0.005998,0.000887,0.001257,-0.004377,-0.011979,-0.005688,-0.00419,0.00253,-0.004311

His maternal grandfather's coordinates are the provided a few posts back.

Thanks!

I can do it. 25% subtraction from your friend's coordinates, right?

Sorcelow
11-20-2020, 12:41 AM
More northern than Greek Peloponnese reference despite Chris plots close to Smyrna due to his Cretan and Western Anatolian ancestry. You could add Markos mom as well who is fully Peloponnesian.

Cretan and Western Anatolian ancestry? Are we referring to the same Chris? From Achaia.

lacreme
11-20-2020, 12:42 AM
If anyone is interested, I created my own G25 Peloponnese average, which is below. Unfortunately, the original average is composed of three results, so I took upon myself to create this. Ideally, I would like to break the average down into sub-regions, since the Peloponnese is quite diverse, but we cant do that a the moment because of the paucity of samples

This new average adds the results of myself and my mother, TonyC, and Chris (Even though I know he is not fully Peloponnesian)

Greek_Peloponnese (N=7) 0.117237829,0.144930588,0.007488591,-0.026855156,0.017453678,-0.008964444,0.002820044,-0.001911891,-0.000438211,0.016791788,-0.000464094,0.003425629,-0.006647143,0.008316451,-0.016170032,-0.002784569,0.004172326,0.00023508,0.005117765,-0.006824451,-0.007076824,0.002667421,0.004260777,0.004182989,-0.001881784

By Chris I hope you mean his grandfather coordinates from here and not my friend whom his theoritical Peloponnesian total is a little less than 50%

xripkan
11-20-2020, 12:43 AM
Cretan and Western Anatolian ancestry? Are we referring to the same Chris? From Achaia.

I mean Lacreme's friend. He is partly Cretean and Western Anatolian.

Sorcelow
11-20-2020, 12:43 AM
By Chris I hope you mean his grandfather coordinates from here and not my friend whom his theoritical Peloponnesian total is a little less than 50%

Yes, I am referring to his grandfather’s coordinates.

23abc
11-20-2020, 12:44 AM
If anyone is interested, I created my own G25 Peloponnese average, which is below. Unfortunately, the original average is composed of three results, so I took upon myself to create this. Ideally, I would like to break the average down into sub-regions, since the Peloponnese is quite diverse, but we cant do that a the moment because of the paucity of samples

This new average adds the results of myself and my mother, TonyC, and Chris (Even though I know he is not fully Peloponnesian)

Greek_Peloponnese (N=7) 0.117237829,0.144930588,0.007488591,-0.026855156,0.017453678,-0.008964444,0.002820044,-0.001911891,-0.000438211,0.016791788,-0.000464094,0.003425629,-0.006647143,0.008316451,-0.016170032,-0.002784569,0.004172326,0.00023508,0.005117765,-0.006824451,-0.007076824,0.002667421,0.004260777,0.004182989,-0.001881784

It makes sense to make a new average. I think the samples currently are fine but if they are not representative of most of today's Peloponnesians then it shouldn't be used as an idea of the modern day Peloponnesian average, which certainly has a slight northern shift compared to the one we have right now.

https://imgur.com/PLiS9Pg.png

But still you guys will not be able to model yourselves against that new average, due to so called 'calculator effect'.

lacreme
11-20-2020, 12:52 AM
I can do it. 25% subtraction from your friend's coordinates, right?

Exactly

Thank you

Sorcelow
11-20-2020, 12:54 AM
It makes sense to make a new average. I think the samples currently are fine but if they are not representative of most of today's Peloponnesians then it shouldn't be used as an idea of the modern day Peloponnesian average, which certainly has a slight northern shift compared to the one we have right now.

https://imgur.com/PLiS9Pg.png

But still you guys will not be able to model yourselves against that new average, due to so called 'calculator effect'.

I thought the calculator effect had to do with admixture calculators, not with the G25.

xripkan
11-20-2020, 12:54 AM
Exactly

Thank you

x,0.116858,0.146574333,-0.013701667,-0.034561,0.006770333,-0.008088333,0.002585,0.002384333,-0.003954333,0.015975333,0.002003333,0.005945333,0. 000694,-0.001697333,-0.011129667,0.004994333,0.009562,-0.001055333,4.2E-05,-0.002167667,-0.012603,-0.008573333,-0.007640667,0.001566,-0.006825667

23abc
11-20-2020, 12:57 AM
I thought the calculator effect had to do with admixture calculators, not with the G25.

If the average contains yourself in it and then you model yourself with that average it causes a biased effect. For example I was trying to run a model someone posted and for some reason I was scoring 100%. So I examined the custom coord created and it consisted of an average of a few Greek_Kos + myself. The only way you can avoid the bias is with an extremely high sample size, but I doubt you'll manage to get hundreds or thousands of samples for an average.

xripkan
11-20-2020, 01:03 AM
The subtracted coordinates are in line with the rest of his known origin.

Sorcelow
11-20-2020, 01:09 AM
If the average contains yourself in it and then you model yourself with that average it causes a biased effect. For example I was trying to run a model someone posted and for some reason I was scoring 100%. So I examined the custom coord created and it consisted of a few Greek_Kos + myself. The only way you can avoid the bias is with an extremely high sample size, but I doubt you'll manage to get hundreds or thousands of samples for an average.

I was under the impression that the calculator effect is essentially when samples that were used to source an admixture component are included in the average for a particular ethnic group. The Dodecad averages on gedmatch suffered from this. For example, in the K12b, the North European score for Poles was listed somewhere around 60-70, when in reality the average Pole scored considerably less. This is because samples that were used to source the component (that scored nearly 100% north European) were used in the average.

I would agree with you if the average contained only 2 or so samples, but I think 7 is enough to eliminate that sampling bias that it no longer becomes that meaningful. For example, my coordinates only contributed 17% to the average. I think I should be safe to mode myself using this average without too much skew.

Of course, the more samples the better. I hope more Peloponnesians test in the future.

xripkan
11-20-2020, 01:20 AM
I was under the impression that the calculator effect is essentially when samples that were used to source an admixture component are included in the average for a particular ethnic group. The Dodecad averages on gedmatch suffered from this. For example, in the K12b, the “North European” score for Poles was listed somewhere around 60-70, when in reality the average Pole scored considerably less. This is because samples that were used to source the component (that scored nearly 100% north European) were used in the average.

I would agree with you if the average contained only 2 or so samples, but I think 7 is enough to eliminate that sampling bias that it no longer becomes that meaningful. For example, my coordinates only contributed 17% to the average. I think I should be safe to mode myself using this average without too much skew.

Of course, the more samples the better. I hope more Peloponnesians test in the future.

You can inlude Markos mom as well. She is fully Peloponnesian.

23abc
11-20-2020, 01:24 AM
I was under the impression that the calculator effect is essentially when samples that were used to source an admixture component are included in the average for a particular ethnic group. The Dodecad averages on gedmatch suffered from this. For example, in the K12b, the “North European” score for Poles was listed somewhere around 60-70, when in reality the average Pole scored considerably less. This is because samples that were used to source the component (that scored nearly 100% north European) were used in the average.

I would agree with you if the average contained only 2 or so samples, but I think 7 is enough to eliminate that sampling bias that it no longer becomes that meaningful. For example, my coordinates only contributed 17% to the average. I think I should be safe to mode myself using this average without too much skew.

Of course, the more samples the better. I hope more Peloponnesians test in the future.

You're right about what that refers to in the traditional sense. But surely your distance to the sample will be artificially close at even n=7. Have you tried seeing what the difference of the distance is when you're not in it and when you are? I have to also say that having both a parent and a child in the same average will also add bias.

Sorcelow
11-20-2020, 01:25 AM
You can inlude Markos mom as well. She is fully Peloponnesian.

Could you direct me to her coordinates?

xripkan
11-20-2020, 01:35 AM
Could you direct me to her coordinates?

Markos_Mother_scaled,0.1161,0.139128,0.011314,-0.021964,0.022466,-0.00502,-0.00094,0.003923,0.007976,0.012939,0.006658,-0.00015,-0.00223,0.010459,-0.010993,-0.012729,-0.010691,0.001014,0.011564,-0.006253,-0.001872,0.000618,0.007765,-0.005181,0.00455

Sorcelow
11-20-2020, 01:38 AM
Markos_Mother_scaled,0.1161,0.139128,0.011314,-0.021964,0.022466,-0.00502,-0.00094,0.003923,0.007976,0.012939,0.006658,-0.00015,-0.00223,0.010459,-0.010993,-0.012729,-0.010691,0.001014,0.011564,-0.006253,-0.001872,0.000618,0.007765,-0.005181,0.00455

Awesome!

Greek_Peloponnese (N=8),0.1170956,0.144205265,0.007966767,-0.026243762,0.018080218,-0.008471389,0.002350039,-0.00118253,0.000613565,0.016310189,0.000426167,0.0 02978675,-0.006095,0.008584269,-0.015522903,-0.004027623,0.00231441,0.000332445,0.005923545,-0.00675302,-0.006426221,0.002411243,0.004698805,0.003012491,-0.001077811

xripkan
11-20-2020, 01:40 AM
Could you direct me to her coordinates?

It would be also interesting to make a refrence which will contain not the Vahaduo reference but just the Peloponnesian individuals that have been tested. I can do it if you send me the coordinates.

Sorcelow
11-20-2020, 01:44 AM
It would be also interesting to make a refrence which will contain not the Vahaduo reference but just the Peloponnesian individuals that have been tested. I can do it if you send me the coordinates.

Here it is, sir.

Greek_Peloponnese (N=5 without VD samples),0.11632736,0.144408424,0.010484027,-0.022480819,0.019388149,-0.007307022,0.002773062,-0.001338248,0.001227105,0.015235103,0.000617068,0. 00239788,-0.006214,0.011505431,-0.015010445,-0.007875997,-0.004354744,0.000329311,0.003972071,-0.010379832,-0.004716754,.001459189,0.006680088,0.004892185,0.0 00311102

xripkan
11-20-2020, 02:01 AM
Here it is, sir.

Greek_Peloponnese (N=5 without VD samples),0.11632736,0.144408424,0.010484027,-0.022480819,0.019388149,-0.007307022,0.002773062,-0.001338248,0.001227105,0.015235103,0.000617068,0. 00239788,-0.006214,0.011505431,-0.015010445,-0.007875997,-0.004354744,0.000329311,0.003972071,-0.010379832,-0.004716754,.001459189,0.006680088,0.004892185,0.0 00311102

This reference seems pretty Thessalian! There is a little bit extra West Asian however.


Distance: 1.4078% / 0.01407773
Target: Greek_Peloponnese(N=5withoutVDsamples) | ADC: 0.5x RC
53.5 Greek_Thessaly
30.7 Albanian
8.4 Ashkenazi_Poland
5.5 Greek_Crete
1.9 Sicilian_East

Without Albanian refrence


Distance: 1.4888% / 0.01488766
Target: Greek_Peloponnese(N=5withoutVDsamples) | ADC: 0.5x RC
87.0 Greek_Thessaly
7.0 Greek_Crete
6.0 Ashkenazi_Ukraine

It seems a Thessalian with some Aegean input! What do you think?

Sorcelow
11-20-2020, 02:04 AM
This reference seems pretty Thessalian! There is some extra West Asian however.


Distance: 1.4078% / 0.01407773
Target: Greek_Peloponnese(N=5withoutVDsamples) | ADC: 0.5x RC
53.5 Greek_Thessaly
30.7 Albanian
8.4 Ashkenazi_Poland
5.5 Greek_Crete
1.9 Sicilian_East

Without Albanian refrence


Distance: 1.4888% / 0.01488766
Target: Greek_Peloponnese(N=5withoutVDsamples) | ADC: 0.5x RC
87.0 Greek_Thessaly
7.0 Greek_Crete
6.0 Ashkenazi_Ukraine

It seems a Thessalian with some Aegean input! What do you think?

I think it bodes well with geography. In a nut shell, Peloponnesians are similar to other mainlanders, but they do have slight Aegean shift.

Greekscholar
11-20-2020, 02:09 AM
Chris's grandfather clusters with Michalis' Peloponnese B average made up of posters from AG.

Distance to: Chris_maternal_grandpa_scaled
0.02497304 Greek_Central_Macedonia:GREEKGRALPOP11
0.02711804 Anthony_C_scaled(Peloponnese)
0.02858265 Greek_Thessaly:GreeceNE162
0.02877340 Greek_Thessaly:GreeceNE144
0.02947476 Greek_Central_Macedonia:GREEKGRALPOP16
0.03003671 Greek_Thessaly:GreeceNE126
0.03006847 Greek_Central_Macedonia:GREEKGRALPOP5
0.03028191 ChristosA_family(Pelopennese/Arvanite):ChristosA_scaled(Peloponnese/Arvanite)
0.03033673 Greek_Central_Macedonia:GREEKGRALPOP4
0.03141653 Greek_Smyrna:GreeceSmyrna58
0.03196041 Greek_Central_Macedonia:GREEKGRALPOP14
0.03266525 Markos_family(Samos/Pelopennese):Markos_scaled(Samos/Pelopennese)
0.03270043 Markos_family(Samos/Pelopennese)Markos_Mother_scaled(Peloponnese)
0.03417455 Christos_scaled(Peloponnese/Thessaly)
0.03418493 ChristosA_family(Pelopennese/Arvanite):ChristosA_mother_scaled
0.03455456 Greek_Central_Macedonia:GreeceNE11
0.03479933 Greek_Peloponnese:GreeceNE209
0.03555080 Greek_Central_Macedonia:GREEKGRALPOP18
0.03631695 Greek_Central_Macedonia:GREEKGRALPOP8
0.03673404 Greek_Central_Macedonia:GREEKGRALPOP9
0.03721376 Greek_Central_Macedonia:GREEKGRALPOP3
0.03747398 Greek_Smyrna:GreeceF28k
0.03769596 Sorcelow(Laconia)
0.03791149 Dosas_family(Thrace):dosasfather_scaled
0.03859526 Greek_Smyrna:GreeceSmyrna30

xripkan
11-20-2020, 02:14 AM
I think it bodes well with geography. In a nut shell, Peloponnesians are similar to other mainlanders, but they do have slight Aegean shift.

Can I ask you what you think about my results? I am modelled as a combination of Western Anatolians and Peloponnesians. Don't you find it a bit weird?


Distance: 2.2744% / 0.02274353
Target: Christos_scaled
53.8 Greek_Izmir
46.2 Greek_Peloponnese(N=5withoutVDsamples)

Sorcelow
11-20-2020, 02:19 AM
Can I ask you what you think about my results? I am modelled as a combination of Western Anatolians and Peloponnesians. Don't you find it a bit weird?


Distance: 2.2744% / 0.02274353
Target: Christos_scaled
53.8 Greek_Izmir
46.2 Greek_Peloponnese(N=5withoutVDsamples)

I don't think it's weird. You do have a slightly higher cut of CHG/IranN ancestry, but in terms of deep ancestry, you're still within the general Peloponnesian range.

Target: Christos_scaled
Distance: 1.9998% / 0.01999750
56.6 Anatolia_Barcin_N
20.6 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
13.6 CHG/IranN
7.6 Baltic_HG
1.2 East_Asian
0.4 Levant_Natufian

Target: Greek_Peloponnese(N=8)
Distance: 1.1038% / 0.01103810
58.2 Anatolia_Barcin_N
26.4 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
9.0 CHG/IranN
4.8 Baltic_HG
1.0 Levant_Natufian
0.6 East_Asian

xripkan
11-20-2020, 02:26 AM
I don't think it's weird. You do have a slightly higher cut of CHG/IranN ancestry, but in terms of deep ancestry, you're still within the general Peloponnesian range.

Target: Christos_scaled
Distance: 1.9998% / 0.01999750
56.6 Anatolia_Barcin_N
20.6 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
13.6 CHG/IranN
7.6 Baltic_HG
1.2 East_Asian
0.4 Levant_Natufian

Target: Greek_Peloponnese(N=8)
Distance: 1.1038% / 0.01103810
58.2 Anatolia_Barcin_N
26.4 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
9.0 CHG/IranN
4.8 Baltic_HG
1.0 Levant_Natufian
0.6 East_Asian

I think my pure Peloponnesian part will plot close to Peloponnese Vahaduo reference with a bit extra West Asian input.

Sorcelow
11-20-2020, 03:04 AM
Here is the two way oracle for the new Peloponnesian average:

[1,] "Greek_Peloponnese (N=8)" "0"
[2,] "59% Greek_Central_Macedonia + 41% Italian_Apulia" "0.0087"
[3,] "31.1% Greek_Crete + 68.9% Albanian (N=16)" "0.0088"
[4,] "20.6% Greek_Crete + 79.4% Greek_Thessaly" "0.0091"
[5,] "42% Italian_Apulia + 58% Albanian (N=16)" "0.0092"
[6,] "34.6% Greek_Izmir + 65.4% Greek_Thessaly" "0.0093"
[7,] "65.3% Italian_Apulia + 34.7% North_Macedonian (N=8)" "0.0094"
[8,] "92.5% Greek_Thessaly + 7.5% Samaritan" "0.0095"
[9,] "91.3% Greek_Thessaly + 8.7% Lebanese_Christian" "0.0097"
[10,] "10.8% Cypriot + 89.2% Greek_Thessaly" "0.0098"
[11,] "15.7% Greek_Kos + 84.3% Greek_Thessaly" "0.0099"
[12,] "17.4% Syrian_Jew + 82.6% Albanian (N=16)" "0.0099"
[13,] "73.8% Greek_Thessaly + 26.2% Italian_Basilicata" "0.0099"
[14,] "15% Karaite_Egypt + 85% Albanian (N=16)" "0.0099"
[15,] "9% Druze + 91% Greek_Thessaly" "0.0099"
[16,] "92.5% Greek_Thessaly + 7.5% Iraqi_Jew" "0.0099"
[17,] "67.2% Greek_Central_Macedonia + 32.8% Sicilian_East" "0.0099"
[18,] "21.7% Sephardic_Jew + 78.3% Albanian (N=16)" "0.0099"
[19,] "12.5% Samaritan + 87.5% Albanian (N=16)" "0.01"
[20,] "17.9% Cypriot + 82.1% Albanian (N=16)" "0.01"

Johnny ola
11-20-2020, 05:32 AM
I think my pure Peloponnesian part will plot close to Peloponnese Vahaduo reference with a bit extra West Asian input.

If you guys believe that the Peloponnese samples in G25 are not really representative for the Peloponnese average you can say David to put these samples here. Or to make a second list With Peloponnese samples.I think academic samples are not always accurate for what that average can get, without saying that these samples are bad or being nonsense. We might see in the future other guys from Peloponnese having similar type of results With the current We got in G25.

lacreme
11-20-2020, 12:00 PM
update from gedmatch... one to many comparison is now available for his kit too, doing a quick search there are no common matches between my friend and his grandfather. On one to one there are still no common DNA segments between them... sooo definitely NPE or an extremely rare case of error by myheritage which frankly I don't think it's possible. Now only his mother's results will shed some light on this case.


The subtracted coordinates are in line with the rest of his known origin.

Really :O :O ? wtf... can you post a model which shows this ? I'm not knowledgeable enough to do it by myself . A reminder for anyone reading that the rest of my friend's ancestry is 25% from Elis, about 30-31% Western Minor Asian, 12.5% Sfakiot and around 6% from Milos

Also one last request, can you substract his Elis ancestry too ? that profile should be in or close to Michalis' Peloponnese B cluster too as the village,Aspra Spitia in Elis, was a mix of native Elis people of the area and migrants from the adjacent villages of Arcadia (vilages in modern day Gortynia https://el.wikipedia.org/wiki/%CE%94%CE%AE%CE%BC%CE%BF%CF%82_%CE%93%CE%BF%CF%81% CF%84%CF%85%CE%BD%CE%AF%CE%B1%CF%82 )

thanks in advance

dosas
11-20-2020, 01:03 PM
It makes sense to make a new average. I think the samples currently are fine but if they are not representative of most of today's Peloponnesians then it shouldn't be used as an idea of the modern day Peloponnesian average, which certainly has a slight northern shift compared to the one we have right now.

https://imgur.com/PLiS9Pg.png

But still you guys will not be able to model yourselves against that new average, due to so called 'calculator effect'.


So the "NEW_Pelop." is basically Albanian shifted and the "OLD" more Italian/Mycenean shifted. Somehow, I think the logical approach would be to trust the "OLD" one.

xripkan
11-20-2020, 01:03 PM
update from gedmatch... one to many comparison is now available for his kit too, doing a quick search there are no common matches between my friend and his grandfather. On one to one there are still no common DNA segments between them... sooo definitely NPE or an extremely rare case of error by myheritage which frankly I don't think it's possible. Now only his mother's results will shed some light on this case.



Really :O :O ? wtf... can you post a model which shows this ? I'm not knowledgeable enough to do it by myself . A reminder for anyone reading that the rest of my friend's ancestry is 25% from Elis, about 30-31% Western Minor Asian, 12.5% Sfakiot and around 6% from Milos

Also one last request, can you substract his Elis ancestry too ? that profile should be in or close to Michalis' Peloponnese B cluster too as the village,Aspra Spitia in Elis, was a mix of native Elis people of the area and migrants from the adjacent villages of Arcadia (vilages in modern day Gortynia https://el.wikipedia.org/wiki/%CE%94%CE%AE%CE%BC%CE%BF%CF%82_%CE%93%CE%BF%CF%81% CF%84%CF%85%CE%BD%CE%AF%CE%B1%CF%82 )

thanks in advance

Maybe I was wrong. With 25% subtraction of maternal grandpa he seems mostly a mix of Western Anatolia + Aegean Islander

Distance: 2.2400% / 0.02240043
Target: x
66.3 Greek_Izmir
33.7 Greek_Crete
0.0 Greek_Peloponnese

Using full spreadsheet

Distance: 2.0557% / 0.02055705
Target: x | ADC: 0.5x RC
77.7 Greek_Izmir
13.7 Greek_Kos
8.6 Iranian_Zoroastrian

However we can't be sure because we don't know the genetic real profile of the other parts.

If we subtract 25% the Peloponnesian (N=8) reference as proxy for Elis and 25% of his maternal grandpa
y,0.1167392,0.147758868,-0.024535884,-0.038719619,0.001115391,-0.007896806,0.002702481,0.004167765,-0.006238283,0.015807906,0.002791917,0.007428663,0. 0040885,-0.006838135,-0.008933049,0.009505312,0.013185795,-0.001749223,-0.002898773,0.00012501,-0.01569139,-0.014065622,-0.013810403,0.000842755,-0.009699595

Seems an Islander with some Western Anatolian

Distance: 3.7992% / 0.03799167
Target: y
66.1 Greek_Crete
33.9 Greek_Izmir

Distance: 3.3582% / 0.03358178
Target: y | ADC: 0.5x RC
44.0 Greek_Izmir
43.0 Greek_Kos
13.0 Iranian_Zoroastrian

I can subtract another reference if you want.

xripkan
11-20-2020, 01:11 PM
If you guys believe that the Peloponnese samples in G25 are not really representative for the Peloponnese average you can say David to put these samples here. Or to make a second list With Peloponnese samples.I think academic samples are not always accurate for what that average can get, without saying that these samples are bad or being nonsense. We might see in the future other guys from Peloponnese having similar type of results With the current We got in G25.

I am not sure yet, I want to see more samples. The current Peloponnese reference is quite southern shifted. Personally speaking Peloponnese_(N=8) reference is my closest reference of all. However trying to simulate my pure Peloponnesian part I am always closer to Peloponnese academic samples. This is an indication that not only Maniots plot close to these samples but a larger part of Peloponnesians.

23abc
11-20-2020, 01:50 PM
I am not sure yet, I want to see more samples. The current Peloponnese reference is quite southern shifted. Personally speaking Peloponnese_(N=8) reference is my closest reference of all. However trying to simulate my pure Peloponnesian part I am always closer to Peloponnese academic samples. This is an indication that not only Maniots plot close to these samples but a larger part of Peloponnesians.

There are some academic samples of Greeks from study 'Maritime route of colonization of Europe'. They have kind of low coverage but include Greek samples from Peloponnese, South-East Laconia, Crete, Macedonia, East Rumilia, Dodecanese, Cappadocia. The individual samples are quite noisy due to the lower coverage with calculators but the averages seem fine for comparison, so here is a comparison of the two averages from the academic samples:

https://imgur.com/rLeus8n.png

So yes, there are parts of the Peloponnese that are just like the one's in G25. That is South-East Laconia, which doesn't have the same degree of Illyrian or Balto-Slavic shift and retains more Byzantine-era related admixture than other areas north of it.

xripkan
11-20-2020, 01:57 PM
There are some academic samples of Greeks from study 'Maritime route of colonization of Europe'. They have kind of low coverage but include Greek samples from Peloponnese, South-East Laconia, Crete, Macedonia, East Rumilia, Dodecanese, Cappadocia. The individual samples are quite noisy due to the lower coverage with calculators but the averages seem fine for comparison, so here is a comparison of the two averages from the academic samples:

https://imgur.com/rLeus8n.png

So yes, there are parts of the Peloponnese that are just like the one's in G25. That is South-East Laconia, which doesn't have the same degree of Illyrian or Balto-Slavic shift and retains more Byzantine-era related admixture than other areas north of it.

Very interesting. The Maritime Peloponnese is the Vahaduo academic reference or different? Could you send me the cooordinates?

Edit:It is obviously different

23abc
11-20-2020, 02:09 PM
Very interesting. The Maritime Peloponnese is the Vahaduo academic reference or different? Could you send me the cooordinates?

Edit:It is obviously different


MARITIME_Cappadocia,13.1614,0.497143,1.19143,0.141 429,14.92,7.06429,0.0142857,0,15.2671,0.218571,47. 5271,0
MARITIME_Cappadocia_o1,11.87,0,1.51,0,19.67,5.55,0 .07,0,19.81,0,41.5,0
MARITIME_Cappadocia_o2,14.84,0,0.395,0.01,19.3,5.9 2,0.53,0,12.77,0.005,46.23,0
MARITIME_Dodecanese,8.58125,0.0925,2.5175,0.28625, 22.5875,9.50125,0.335,0.43125,15.0638,0.0575,40.44 ,0.1075
MARITIME_Dodecanese_o,10.945,0.02,2.17,1.42,24.69, 7.705,0.565,0.25,12.315,0.05,39.885,0
MARITIME_East_Rumelia,5.97917,0.380833,1.945,0.013 3333,24.9825,26.1392,0.443333,0.0983333,8.4175,0.3 03333,31.2258,0.0708333
MARITIME_Macedonia,5.64,0.611875,1.585,0.184375,27 .0894,26.0931,0.529375,0.0575,8.505,0.04125,29.658 7,0.008125
MARITIME_Peloponnese,5.57737,0.531579,2.02316,0.12 3158,27.5153,21.6147,0.196316,0.0431579,10.4084,0. 0531579,31.7611,0.148947
MARITIME_SE_Laconia,5.4875,0.29,2.575,0.0375,27.71 75,18.49,0.035,0.1625,11.83,0.0075,33.255,0.105
MARITIME_SE_Laconia_o,7.69,0,6.43,1,23.52,15.8,0,1 .6,9.14,0.25,29.99,4.57

This is for Dodecad K12b. Unfortunately I never got around to making the coords for other calculators. But yeah, as I mentioned before, they are a bit noisy due to lower coverage, but should be okay for comparisons.

xripkan
11-20-2020, 02:24 PM
MARITIME_Cappadocia,13.1614,0.497143,1.19143,0.141 429,14.92,7.06429,0.0142857,0,15.2671,0.218571,47. 5271,0
MARITIME_Cappadocia_o1,11.87,0,1.51,0,19.67,5.55,0 .07,0,19.81,0,41.5,0
MARITIME_Cappadocia_o2,14.84,0,0.395,0.01,19.3,5.9 2,0.53,0,12.77,0.005,46.23,0
MARITIME_Dodecanese,8.58125,0.0925,2.5175,0.28625, 22.5875,9.50125,0.335,0.43125,15.0638,0.0575,40.44 ,0.1075
MARITIME_Dodecanese_o,10.945,0.02,2.17,1.42,24.69, 7.705,0.565,0.25,12.315,0.05,39.885,0
MARITIME_East_Rumelia,5.97917,0.380833,1.945,0.013 3333,24.9825,26.1392,0.443333,0.0983333,8.4175,0.3 03333,31.2258,0.0708333
MARITIME_Macedonia,5.64,0.611875,1.585,0.184375,27 .0894,26.0931,0.529375,0.0575,8.505,0.04125,29.658 7,0.008125
MARITIME_Peloponnese,5.57737,0.531579,2.02316,0.12 3158,27.5153,21.6147,0.196316,0.0431579,10.4084,0. 0531579,31.7611,0.148947
MARITIME_SE_Laconia,5.4875,0.29,2.575,0.0375,27.71 75,18.49,0.035,0.1625,11.83,0.0075,33.255,0.105
MARITIME_SE_Laconia_o,7.69,0,6.43,1,23.52,15.8,0,1 .6,9.14,0.25,29.99,4.57

This is for Dodecad K12b. Unfortunately I never got around to making the coords for other calculators. But yeah, as I mentioned before, they are a bit noisy due to lower coverage, but should be okay for comparisons.

Lakonia seems what we call Maniot-like. Clusters with Apulia and Cyclades. Peloponnese seems representative, maybe a bit more northern shifted than Peloponnese academic samples of Vahaduo.
Are these samples part of an upcoming research? Do you know if they will be available in Vahaduo?

Greekscholar
11-20-2020, 02:38 PM
Has Davidski changed his mind on phasing out his G25 modern spreadsheet? I thought it was going to be eliminated by October and no new entries would be officially added.

The subtraction for Chris would seem to work. Take out the Elis, and his remaining ancestry is Western Anatolian and Aegean Island references, as expected. I am sorry about your finding an NPE, it is a risk one takes when doing DNA testing. I hope he and his family are able to work through it.

23abc
11-20-2020, 02:41 PM
Lakonia seems what we call Maniot-like. Clusters with Apulia and Cyclades. Peloponnese seems representative, maybe a bit more northern shifted than Peloponnese academic samples of Vahaduo.
Are these samples part of an upcoming research? Do you know if they will be available in Vahaduo?

The samples have been released a long time ago. No idea, the problem is their coverage is low. Individually their results will be useless but the averages seem to work well.

Sorcelow
11-20-2020, 02:42 PM
Lakonia seems what we call Maniot-like. Clusters with Apulia and Cyclades. Peloponnese seems representative, maybe a bit more northern shifted than Peloponnese academic samples of Vahaduo.
Are these samples part of an upcoming research? Do you know if they will be available in Vahaduo?

Laconia is an interesting place. I made an dodecad k12b average for northwest Laconia (Mystras) region and its generally an Aegean/Anatolian shifted Greek mainlander, which I think make sense considering that Laconia is Aegean facing, and historically has been one of the most cosmopolitan areas of the Peloponnese.

Southeast Lakonia and Mani, however, are distinct ethnographic regions, so it would be interesting to adequate sampling from there.

lacreme
11-20-2020, 02:58 PM
Maybe I was wrong. With 25% subtraction of maternal grandpa he seems mostly a mix of Western Anatolia + Aegean Islander

Distance: 2.2400% / 0.02240043
Target: x
66.3 Greek_Izmir
33.7 Greek_Crete
0.0 Greek_Peloponnese

Using full spreadsheet
......



Can you make a substraction of just the 25% the Peloponnesus n=8 average (representing a hypothetical eastern Elis ) from my friend ? it will probably yield similar results with the 25% substraction of his grandpa who lands in the same cluster with them but just to see if there is any difference.

does the theoritical result with the total Peloponnesian removal ( =y ) seem probable ?

lastly, if we assume that his real Elis ancestry is really like the Peloponnesus B average* then what would he, his disputed maternal grandpa, needed to be like for my friend to "land" where he lands genetically ?


* I know that genotype=/=phenotype but judging by the looks they probably are firmly in that general nw-greek/thessalian shifted cluster



......
The subtraction for Chris would seem to work. Take out the Elis, and his remaining ancestry is Western Anatolian and Aegean Island references, as expected. I am sorry about your finding an NPE, it is a risk one takes when doing DNA testing. I hope he and his family are able to work through it.

Thank you
If a NPE is confirmed when his mother receives her results and if the substraction really works then what are the implications ? that the "real"/biological grandfather must have had a similar genetic profile as the one tested ?

xripkan
11-20-2020, 03:02 PM
Laconia is an interesting place. I made an dodecad k12b average for northwest Laconia (Mystras) region and its generally an Aegean/Anatolian shifted Greek mainlander, which I think make sense considering that Laconia is Aegean facing, and historically has been one of the most cosmopolitan areas of the Peloponnese.

Southeast Lakonia and Mani, however, are distinct ethnographic regions, so it would be interesting to adequate sampling from there.

Southern Peloponnese and possibly the whole region of Peloponnese seems much more diverse genetically than what we expected. There are individuals who plot close to Northern Greeks, others who cluster with South Albanians and Epirotes, there are Apulian-like profiles with very low West Asian and others with significant Aegean-like shift. An of course combinations of all of them.

I compared Peloponnesia reference with maritime_Peloponnesian

Distance ratio: ( AC / BC ) ↑
A: Greek_Peloponnese
B: MARITIME_Peloponnese
C: ↴
0.77221738 Bulgarian_Thrace
0.77639649 Greek_Thessaloniki
0.81748089 Turk_Makedonya
0.86959816 Turk_Trakya
0.87429165 Greek_Thrace
0.88123433 Turk_Deliorman
0.88802078 Bulgarian_East
0.89193382 MD_Gagauz
0.89504391 Greek_Macedonia
0.89645337 Greek_Thessaly
0.91301988 Crimean_Tatar_Mountain
0.91717592 Bulgarian_Central
0.92017436 Pomak
0.92797271 Bulgarian_West
0.93027454 MD_South
0.94015413 Romanian
0.94061457 Macedonian
0.94892735 MD_Center
0.95068698 Qumuq
0.95299144 Montenegrin
0.95353183 Tabasaran
0.95568270 Avar
0.95581760 Lak2
0.95623648 Dargin
0.95689081 Lak

Distance ratio: ( AC / BC ) ↓
A: Greek_Peloponnese
B: MARITIME_Peloponnese
C: ↴
1.33522096 Greek_Athens
1.30614162 Greek_Central
1.25818141 Italy_Lazio
1.23796399 Italy_Marche
1.22416754 Italy_Abruzzo
1.15311927 Italy_Romagna
1.14965375 Italy_Campania
1.14485246 Italy_Apulia
1.12723964 Italy_Sicily
1.10990702 France_Corsica
1.09993994 Italy_Tuscany
1.09455604 Ashkenazi_Jews
1.09188460 Italy_Calabria
1.08465074 MD_Jewish
1.07865283 Italy_Emilia
1.07602970 Italy_Liguria
1.06653304 Italian_Jews
1.05872788 Morocco_Jews
1.05769692 Sephardic_Jews
1.05561684 Italy_Lombardy
1.05172205 Sardinian
1.04618452 Greek_Foca
1.04422579 Italy_Piedmont
1.03772298 Italy_Veneto
1.03635892 Spanish_Canarias

Greekscholar
11-20-2020, 03:28 PM
Southern Peloponnese and possibly the whole region of Peloponnese seems much more diverse genetically than what we expected. There are individuals who plot close to Northern Greeks, others who cluster with South Albanians and Epirotes, there are Apulian-like profiles with very low West Asian and others with significant Aegean-like shift. An of course combinations of all of them.

I compared Peloponnesia reference with maritime_Peloponnesian

Distance ratio: ( AC / BC ) ↑
A: Greek_Peloponnese
B: MARITIME_Peloponnese
C: ↴
0.77221738 Bulgarian_Thrace
0.77639649 Greek_Thessaloniki
0.81748089 Turk_Makedonya
0.86959816 Turk_Trakya
0.87429165 Greek_Thrace
0.88123433 Turk_Deliorman
0.88802078 Bulgarian_East
0.89193382 MD_Gagauz
0.89504391 Greek_Macedonia
0.89645337 Greek_Thessaly
0.91301988 Crimean_Tatar_Mountain
0.91717592 Bulgarian_Central
0.92017436 Pomak
0.92797271 Bulgarian_West
0.93027454 MD_South
0.94015413 Romanian
0.94061457 Macedonian
0.94892735 MD_Center
0.95068698 Qumuq
0.95299144 Montenegrin
0.95353183 Tabasaran
0.95568270 Avar
0.95581760 Lak2
0.95623648 Dargin
0.95689081 Lak

Distance ratio: ( AC / BC ) ↓
A: Greek_Peloponnese
B: MARITIME_Peloponnese
C: ↴
1.33522096 Greek_Athens
1.30614162 Greek_Central
1.25818141 Italy_Lazio
1.23796399 Italy_Marche
1.22416754 Italy_Abruzzo
1.15311927 Italy_Romagna
1.14965375 Italy_Campania
1.14485246 Italy_Apulia
1.12723964 Italy_Sicily
1.10990702 France_Corsica
1.09993994 Italy_Tuscany
1.09455604 Ashkenazi_Jews
1.09188460 Italy_Calabria
1.08465074 MD_Jewish
1.07865283 Italy_Emilia
1.07602970 Italy_Liguria
1.06653304 Italian_Jews
1.05872788 Morocco_Jews
1.05769692 Sephardic_Jews
1.05561684 Italy_Lombardy
1.05172205 Sardinian
1.04618452 Greek_Foca
1.04422579 Italy_Piedmont
1.03772298 Italy_Veneto
1.03635892 Spanish_Canarias

23abc is correct that including yourselves in the sample average is going to bring you to the top, but overall it seems like the Pelopennese B sample average is close many mainland Greeks, and some Smyrniotes well.

Distance to: Greek_Peloponnese(N=5withoutVDsamples)
0.01786521 Greek_Central_Macedonia:GREEKGRALPOP11
0.01817698 Anthony_C_scaled(Peloponnese)
0.01930756 Greek_Thessaly:GreeceNE144
0.01971284 Chris_maternal_grandpa_scaled(Peloponnese/Crete/AsiaMinor)
0.02006987 Greek_Thessaly:GreeceNE162
0.02179109 Markos_family(Samos/Pelopennese):Markos_scaled(Samos/Pelopennese)
0.02191402 Markos_family(Samos/Pelopennese)Markos_Mother_scaled(Peloponnese)
0.02233701 Greek_Smyrna:GreeceSmyrna58
0.02333209 Greek_Thessaly:GreeceNE126
0.02370522 Greek_Central_Macedonia:GREEKGRALPOP16
0.02495436 Greek_Central_Macedonia:GREEKGRALPOP14
0.02587425 ChristosA_family(Pelopennese/Arvanite):ChristosA_scaled(Peloponnese/Arvanite)
0.02588720 Sorcelow(Laconia)
0.02596233 Greek_Central_Macedonia:GREEKGRALPOP4
0.02785682 Christos_scaled(Peloponnese/Thessaly)
0.02802712 Greek_Central_Macedonia:GREEKGRALPOP18
0.02811190 Greek_Central_Macedonia:GreeceNE11
0.02838633 Greek_Central_Macedonia:GREEKGRALPOP5
0.02911978 Greek_Central_Macedonia:GREEKGRALPOP8
0.02970398 Greek_Peloponnese:GreeceNE252
0.03017346 Greek_Peloponnese:GreeceNE209
0.03033216 Greek_Central_Macedonia:GREEKGRALPOP3
0.03046197 ChristosA_family(Pelopennese/Arvanite):ChristosA_mother_scaled
0.03103873 Greek_Smyrna:GreecePhokaia60
0.03114470 Greek_Smyrna:GreeceSmyrna30

Greekscholar
11-20-2020, 03:31 PM
If a NPE is confirmed when his mother receives her results and if the substraction really works then what are the implications ? that the "real"/biological grandfather must have had a similar genetic profile as the one tested ?

That would be my interpretation right now. Of course it doesn't mean the bio-grandfather is from the same village or area, but it does make that seem more likely. I don't know if that fact makes it more difficult or not, but depending on the ages of the people involved, it may be a mystery that can be solved if the family has interest.

xripkan
11-20-2020, 03:46 PM
Can you make a substraction of just the 25% the Peloponnesus n=8 average (representing a hypothetical eastern Elis ) from my friend ? it will probably yield similar results with the 25% substraction of his grandpa who lands in the same cluster with them but just to see if there is any difference.

does the theoritical result with the total Peloponnesian removal ( =y ) seem probable ?

lastly, if we assume that his real Elis ancestry is really like the Peloponnesus B average* then what would he, his disputed maternal grandpa, needed to be like for my friend to "land" where he lands genetically ?


* I know that genotype=/=phenotype but judging by the looks they probably are firmly in that general nw-greek/thessalian shifted cluster



Thank you
If a NPE is confirmed when his mother receives her results and if the substraction really works then what are the implications ? that the "real"/biological grandfather must have had a similar genetic profile as the one tested ?

chris-25PeloponneseN=8,0.114249467,0.146912912,-0.012208922,-0.032165413,0.009975927,-0.008704204,0.003289987,0.001624843,-0.004295188,0.016673937,0.000724611 ,0.007200442,-0.001932333,-0.002310756,-0.012560366,0.003994541,0.007225863,0.001071852,-0.000298515,-0.003584993,-0.013829926,-0.008387748,-0.007152935 ,0.00236917,-0.00538873

Quite similar to x reference. It is modelled as 3/4 Western Anatolian and 1/4 Cretan


Distance: 1.9768% / 0.01976764
Target: chris-25PeloponneseN=8 | ADC: 0.5x RC
67.1 Greek_Izmir
19.1 Italian_Abruzzo
8.5 Iranian_Zoroastrian
5.3 Greek_Crete

Distance: 2.1164% / 0.02116444
Target: chris-25PeloponneseN=8 | ADC: 1x RC
72.3 Greek_Izmir
27.7 Greek_Crete

Y seems more Aegean shifted than expected

Distance: 3.5827% / 0.03582745
Target: y | ADC: 1x RC
65.8 Greek_Kos
34.2 Greek_Izmir

But we don't know the exact profile of Aegean and Western Anatolian part.
Based on that I can't make any safe conclusions. I find more possible that he is 25% Peloponnesian. His maternal grandpa should be in the range of Western anatolian/Cyclades without excluding the possibility of an Aegean-shifted Peloponnesian.

xripkan
11-20-2020, 03:51 PM
23abc is correct that including yourselves in the sample average is going to bring you to the top, but overall it seems like the Pelopennese B sample average is close many mainland Greeks, and some Smyrniotes well.

Distance to: Greek_Peloponnese(N=5withoutVDsamples)
0.01786521 Greek_Central_Macedonia:GREEKGRALPOP11
0.01817698 Anthony_C_scaled(Peloponnese)
0.01930756 Greek_Thessaly:GreeceNE144
0.01971284 Chris_maternal_grandpa_scaled(Peloponnese/Crete/AsiaMinor)
0.02006987 Greek_Thessaly:GreeceNE162
0.02179109 Markos_family(Samos/Pelopennese):Markos_scaled(Samos/Pelopennese)
0.02191402 Markos_family(Samos/Pelopennese)Markos_Mother_scaled(Peloponnese)
0.02233701 Greek_Smyrna:GreeceSmyrna58
0.02333209 Greek_Thessaly:GreeceNE126
0.02370522 Greek_Central_Macedonia:GREEKGRALPOP16
0.02495436 Greek_Central_Macedonia:GREEKGRALPOP14
0.02587425 ChristosA_family(Pelopennese/Arvanite):ChristosA_scaled(Peloponnese/Arvanite)
0.02588720 Sorcelow(Laconia)
0.02596233 Greek_Central_Macedonia:GREEKGRALPOP4
0.02785682 Christos_scaled(Peloponnese/Thessaly)
0.02802712 Greek_Central_Macedonia:GREEKGRALPOP18
0.02811190 Greek_Central_Macedonia:GreeceNE11
0.02838633 Greek_Central_Macedonia:GREEKGRALPOP5
0.02911978 Greek_Central_Macedonia:GREEKGRALPOP8
0.02970398 Greek_Peloponnese:GreeceNE252
0.03017346 Greek_Peloponnese:GreeceNE209
0.03033216 Greek_Central_Macedonia:GREEKGRALPOP3
0.03046197 ChristosA_family(Pelopennese/Arvanite):ChristosA_mother_scaled
0.03103873 Greek_Smyrna:GreecePhokaia60
0.03114470 Greek_Smyrna:GreeceSmyrna30

I am not included in this reference since I am just 3/4 Peloponnesian. However, despite my Thessalian ancestry I am more Southern-shifted

Distance: 2.2744% / 0.02274353
Target: Christos_scaled
53.8 Greek_Izmir
46.2 Greek_PeloponneseN=5

Another indication of the genetic diversity in Peloponnese.

Chatzianastasoglou
11-20-2020, 04:07 PM
23abc is correct that including yourselves in the sample average is going to bring you to the top, but overall it seems like the Pelopennese B sample average is close many mainland Greeks, and some Smyrniotes well.

Distance to: Greek_Peloponnese(N=5withoutVDsamples)
0.01786521 Greek_Central_Macedonia:GREEKGRALPOP11
0.01817698 Anthony_C_scaled(Peloponnese)
0.01930756 Greek_Thessaly:GreeceNE144
0.01971284 Chris_maternal_grandpa_scaled(Peloponnese/Crete/AsiaMinor)
0.02006987 Greek_Thessaly:GreeceNE162
0.02179109 Markos_family(Samos/Pelopennese):Markos_scaled(Samos/Pelopennese)
0.02191402 Markos_family(Samos/Pelopennese)Markos_Mother_scaled(Peloponnese)
0.02233701 Greek_Smyrna:GreeceSmyrna58
0.02333209 Greek_Thessaly:GreeceNE126
0.02370522 Greek_Central_Macedonia:GREEKGRALPOP16
0.02495436 Greek_Central_Macedonia:GREEKGRALPOP14
0.02587425 ChristosA_family(Pelopennese/Arvanite):ChristosA_scaled(Peloponnese/Arvanite)
0.02588720 Sorcelow(Laconia)
0.02596233 Greek_Central_Macedonia:GREEKGRALPOP4
0.02785682 Christos_scaled(Peloponnese/Thessaly)
0.02802712 Greek_Central_Macedonia:GREEKGRALPOP18
0.02811190 Greek_Central_Macedonia:GreeceNE11
0.02838633 Greek_Central_Macedonia:GREEKGRALPOP5
0.02911978 Greek_Central_Macedonia:GREEKGRALPOP8
0.02970398 Greek_Peloponnese:GreeceNE252
0.03017346 Greek_Peloponnese:GreeceNE209
0.03033216 Greek_Central_Macedonia:GREEKGRALPOP3
0.03046197 ChristosA_family(Pelopennese/Arvanite):ChristosA_mother_scaled
0.03103873 Greek_Smyrna:GreecePhokaia60
0.03114470 Greek_Smyrna:GreeceSmyrna30
Little correction: my mother (and me) is Arvanite from Souli/Epirus.

Greekscholar
11-20-2020, 04:08 PM
So the "NEW_Pelop." is basically Albanian shifted and the "OLD" more Italian/Mycenean shifted. Somehow, I think the logical approach would be to trust the "OLD" one.

To your point, if you look at the distance measure, this new average matches well to many Mainland Greeks from different regions. Whatever our objections to G25 "Peloponnese A", with sample size and geographic coverage it does represent a unique gentic profile in a way "Peloponnese B" does not. It is perhaps better thought of as an average of modestly western shifted Mainlanders, rather than something unique to the Peloponnese, especially if viewed as a "ancestry" tool.

As it stands, I am not sure there is enough sample size to determine substructure in Mainland Greeks by region right now, but feel free to disagree. :)

Greekscholar
11-20-2020, 04:10 PM
Little correction: my mother (and me) is Arvanite from Souli/Epirus.

Thanks, so your mom is better labeled as Arvanite-Epirus? I will make the correction on my list.

Johnny ola
11-20-2020, 04:25 PM
Southern Peloponnese and possibly the whole region of Peloponnese seems much more diverse genetically than what we expected. There are individuals who plot close to Northern Greeks, others who cluster with South Albanians and Epirotes, there are Apulian-like profiles with very low West Asian and others with significant Aegean-like shift. An of course combinations of all of them.

I compared Peloponnesia reference with maritime_Peloponnesian

Distance ratio: ( AC / BC ) ↑
A: Greek_Peloponnese
B: MARITIME_Peloponnese
C: ↴
0.77221738 Bulgarian_Thrace
0.77639649 Greek_Thessaloniki
0.81748089 Turk_Makedonya
0.86959816 Turk_Trakya
0.87429165 Greek_Thrace
0.88123433 Turk_Deliorman
0.88802078 Bulgarian_East
0.89193382 MD_Gagauz
0.89504391 Greek_Macedonia
0.89645337 Greek_Thessaly
0.91301988 Crimean_Tatar_Mountain
0.91717592 Bulgarian_Central
0.92017436 Pomak
0.92797271 Bulgarian_West
0.93027454 MD_South
0.94015413 Romanian
0.94061457 Macedonian
0.94892735 MD_Center
0.95068698 Qumuq
0.95299144 Montenegrin
0.95353183 Tabasaran
0.95568270 Avar
0.95581760 Lak2
0.95623648 Dargin
0.95689081 Lak

Distance ratio: ( AC / BC ) ↓
A: Greek_Peloponnese
B: MARITIME_Peloponnese
C: ↴
1.33522096 Greek_Athens
1.30614162 Greek_Central
1.25818141 Italy_Lazio
1.23796399 Italy_Marche
1.22416754 Italy_Abruzzo
1.15311927 Italy_Romagna
1.14965375 Italy_Campania
1.14485246 Italy_Apulia
1.12723964 Italy_Sicily
1.10990702 France_Corsica
1.09993994 Italy_Tuscany
1.09455604 Ashkenazi_Jews
1.09188460 Italy_Calabria
1.08465074 MD_Jewish
1.07865283 Italy_Emilia
1.07602970 Italy_Liguria
1.06653304 Italian_Jews
1.05872788 Morocco_Jews
1.05769692 Sephardic_Jews
1.05561684 Italy_Lombardy
1.05172205 Sardinian
1.04618452 Greek_Foca
1.04422579 Italy_Piedmont
1.03772298 Italy_Veneto
1.03635892 Spanish_Canarias

Yes,agree with it. Peloponnese is definitely not a homogenous place.In general i do not believe mainland Greeks are homogenous.Even Macedonian Greeks,some of them coming Bulgarian like..while others are in some way closer to Thessalians and Albanians.Central Greece is also a similar case from kits we have seen,other's ploting more northern while others can reach the Peloponnese averages.Btw from Peloponnese i would like to see some samples-kits from northeast Arcadia or the area-part of the Tsakonian speakers if its possible.I am not sure if any pure Tsakonian village left and inhabit still today.

lacreme
11-20-2020, 04:34 PM
chris-25PeloponneseN=8,0.114249467,0.146912912,-0.012208922,-0.032165413,0.009975927,-0.008704204,0.003289987,0.001624843,-0.004295188,0.016673937,0.000724611 ,0.007200442,-0.001932333,-0.002310756,-0.012560366,0.003994541,0.007225863,0.001071852,-0.000298515,-0.003584993,-0.013829926,-0.008387748,-0.007152935 ,0.00236917,-0.00538873

Quite similar to x reference. It is modelled as 3/4 Western Anatolian and 1/4 Cretan


Distance: 1.9768% / 0.01976764
Target: chris-25PeloponneseN=8 | ADC: 0.5x RC
67.1 Greek_Izmir
19.1 Italian_Abruzzo
8.5 Iranian_Zoroastrian
5.3 Greek_Crete

Distance: 2.1164% / 0.02116444
Target: chris-25PeloponneseN=8 | ADC: 1x RC
72.3 Greek_Izmir
27.7 Greek_Crete

Y seems more Aegean shifted than expected

Distance: 3.5827% / 0.03582745
Target: y | ADC: 1x RC
65.8 Greek_Kos
34.2 Greek_Izmir

But we don't know the exact profile of Aegean and Western Anatolian part.
Based on that I can't make any safe conclusions. I find more possible that he is 25% Peloponnesian. His maternal grandpa should be in the range of Western anatolian/Cyclades without excluding the possibility of an Aegean-shifted Peloponnesian.

Thank you !

Regardless of all this confusion he will definitely test his father and his paternal grandmother (his paternal grandfather has passed away) in the near future too.
So this will hopefully yield the first ? known Elis sample from his grandma to add to the Peloponnesian average and also one more Smyrniot sample,though as a substraction, from his father.

Did the Stamatoyannopoulos study about the Peloponnese ever had the raw data available ?

Johnny ola
11-20-2020, 04:46 PM
Thank you !

Regardless of all this confusion he will definitely test his father and his paternal grandmother (his paternal grandfather has passed away) in the near future too.
So this will hopefully yield the first ? known Elis sample from his grandma to add to the Peloponnesian average and also one more Smyrniot sample,though as a substraction, from his father.

Did the Stamatoyannopoulos study about the Peloponnese ever had the raw data available ?


Stamatoyannopoulos has many samples from various Greeks but they are not released yet.

TonyC
11-20-2020, 04:46 PM
I’m going to try to buy a kit for my first cousin who’s mom was from Laconia and there was at least one maternal grandparent from a Slavicized village. I’m dying to see his results. He is 70 years old, lives in a trailer and can’t afford a kit.

dosas
11-20-2020, 04:56 PM
To your point, if you look at the distance measure, this new average matches well to many Mainland Greeks from different regions. Whatever our objections to G25 "Peloponnese A", with sample size and geographic coverage it does represent a unique gentic profile in a way "Peloponnese B" does not. It is perhaps better thought of as an average of modestly western shifted Mainlanders, rather than something unique to the Peloponnese, especially if viewed as a "ancestry" tool.

As it stands, I am not sure there is enough sample size to determine substructure in Mainland Greeks by region right now, but feel free to disagree. :)


I am not sure I understand your point here.

Why is this new average any more legitimate than Davidski's?

dosas
11-20-2020, 04:58 PM
Did the Stamatoyannopoulos study about the Peloponnese ever had the raw data available ?


I have a feeling they will never be released to the public, for obvious reasons.

Chatzianastasoglou
11-20-2020, 05:09 PM
Thanks, so your mom is better labeled as Arvanite-Epirus? I will make the correction on my list.
Totally. Although her one grandmother wasn't Arvanite but also this grandmother was from Souli region.

Greekscholar
11-20-2020, 05:12 PM
I am not sure I understand your point here.

Why is this new average any more legitimate than Davidski's?

I don't think that.

I think this new sample average is more reflective of a Greek Mainland profile found in many places than a specific Pelopennsean profile based on the distances to other individual Greeks from various regions. I have thought about your point in making sure samples are labeled well so they can be understood, and I think that principle applies to this new average.

That said, I am very glad to have the new average. As we all know, the roots of our various posters from this region are diverse, and those plus G25 Pelopennese samples shows this.

dosas
11-20-2020, 05:14 PM
I think this new sample average is more reflective of a Greek Mainland profile found in many places than a specific Pelopennsean profile based on the distances to other individual Greeks. I have thought a lot about your points about making sure samples are labeled well so they can be understood, and I think your point applies to this new average.

That said, I am very glad to have it.

At the same time, it might as well be based on hearsay and pulled out of someone's head. Davidski puts his name and credibility on the line, random internet posters do not.

Johnny ola
11-20-2020, 05:19 PM
Do we have any idea where from Peloponnese these G25 samples coming from?They are from Corinthia or Argolida?Or from Laconia?

Sorcelow
11-20-2020, 05:26 PM
At the same time, it might as well be based on hearsay and pulled out of someone's head. Davidski puts his name and credibility on the line, random internet posters do not.



In case you don't know, logically it's much better to have a more robust average based on 8 samples than one based on 3. There is no legitimate reason to use the old one now. You already knew that, but your intent is not to be truthful, anyway.

No one is discrediting Davidski, and of course the three samples he posted are better than none.

dosas
11-20-2020, 05:31 PM
In case you don't know, logically it's much better to have an average based on 8 samples than one based on 3. There is no legitimate reason to use the old one now. You already knew that, but your intent is not to be truthful, anyway.

No one is discrediting Davidski, and of course the three samples he posted are better than none.


I don't see how I am not being truthful, your ad homs are getting repetitive. You are an anonymous poster on the internet presenting us with your data that we are supposed to take at face value and you're being salty when people challenge its validity.

Every time there is a thread with Peloponnesian DNA and there's Albanian genetics in the mix, there's always the same circle jerk of saltiness thrown back and forth, we are becoming (the Greek group) a sort of a standing joke on this website, mind you.

Sorcelow
11-20-2020, 05:38 PM
I don't see how I am not being truthful, your ad homs are getting repetitive. You are an anonymous poster on the internet presenting us with your data that we are supposed to take at face value and you're being salty when people challenge its validity.

Every time there is a thread with Peloponnesian DNA and there's Albanian genetics in the mix, there's always the same circle jerk of saltiness thrown back and forth, we are becoming (the Greek group) a sort of a standing joke on this website, mind you.

But there is no legitimate reason to challenge the validity of the new average. It's composed of the three Peloponnesian samples Davidski supplied and five additional samples from people from this forum with confirmed Peloponnesian roots. What is there to challenge about its validity?

The Thessalian average is also based on 3 samples. If we were to obtain the coordinates of 5 more Thessalians, then would it not make sense to add them to average?

lacreme
11-20-2020, 05:38 PM
I have a feeling they will never be released to the public, for obvious reasons.

yeah...we're nearing 4 years since the release of the study... and almost 1 and a half years since the Cretan one...

for fucks sake... why everything must be so complicated and/or half assed . They have probably the biggest databases for those 2 regions and with the relevant substructure info and yet they might as well not exist...

Though to be fair it's not the only one not publicly available, I don't recall ever seeing the modern Greek,Albanian,Arbereshe and South Italian samples from the paper about the Greek colonization of Magna Graecia.

dosas
11-20-2020, 05:50 PM
But there is no legitimate reason to challenge the validity of the new average. It's composed of the three Peloponnesian samples Davidski supplied and five additional samples from people from this forum with confirmed Peloponnesian roots. What is there to challenge about its validity?

The Thessalian average is also based on 3 samples. If we were to obtain the coordinates of 5 more Thessalians, then would it not make sense to add them to average?


If I remember correctly, one or two of the Pelop. posters here have confirmed Albanian/Arvanitic ancestry and you yourself plot right next to my dad, who in turn, can be modelled as a 50/50 mix of Albanian and Bulgarian, or as 80% Albanian and 20% Pole.

If your goal is to Balkanize the G25 Pelop. average so you can feel good about yourself, then by all means, you don't need my, or anyone else's for that matter, permission to do so.

I voiced a criticism in a civilized manner, I believe, and I don't really have a horse in this race to care enough, so I'd rather spare myself the comedy.

xripkan
11-20-2020, 05:53 PM
Yes,agree with it. Peloponnese is definitely not a homogenous place.In general i do not believe mainland Greeks are homogenous.Even Macedonian Greeks,some of them coming Bulgarian like..while others are in some way closer to Thessalians and Albanians.Central Greece is also a similar case from kits we have seen,other's ploting more northern while others can reach the Peloponnese averages.Btw from Peloponnese i would like to see some samples-kits from northeast Arcadia or the area-part of the Tsakonian speakers if its possible.I am not sure if any pure Tsakonian village left and inhabit still today.

I am also curious to see Tsakonian results. I have met Tsakonians in the past. There are some villages left till nowadays. It is spoken by the grandparents but there are also few young people who understand it.

Sorcelow
11-20-2020, 06:06 PM
If I remember correctly, one or two of the Pelop. posters here have confirmed Albanian/Arvanitic ancestry and you yourself plot right next to my dad, who in turn, can be modelled as a 50/50 mix of Albanian and Bulgarian, or as 80% Albanian and 20% Pole.

If your goal is to Balkanize the G25 Pelop. average so you can feel good about yourself, then by all means, you don't need my, or anyone else's for that matter, permission to do so.

I voiced a criticism in a civilized manner, I believe, and I don't really have a horse in this race to care enough, so I'd rather spare myself the comedy.



Not sure where your dad is from but I cant be modeled as 80% Albanian and 20% Pole, so no, I'm not trying to "balkanize" the G25 Peloponnesian average, whatever that means. All of my ancestry for at least the past couple hundred years is entirely from the Peloponnese. My goal was to create a more robust average, and I will continue to add more Peloponnesians as they come.

And if some Peloponnesians on this forum have partial Arvanite ancestry, then so what? The entire Peloponnese was settled by Arvanites and its likely that all Peloponnesians have some of this ancestry somewhere down the line.

Greekscholar
11-20-2020, 06:10 PM
At the same time, it might as well be based on hearsay and pulled out of someone's head. Davidski puts his name and credibility on the line, random internet posters do not.

Ok. I think self-published G25 coordinates are pretty well accepted on this site by lots of heavy hitters and used in their PCAs and other analysis. I am confused as to what makes this different.

I'm sorry Davidski gets grief for this modern spreadsheet, or that we are considered a "joke." I appreciate him and the other expert posters here greatly and am not trying to lift anyone up to that level of expertise. I keep in mind our G25 data comes from Davidski and his methods.

Johnny ola
11-20-2020, 06:30 PM
It is better the samples from Peloponnese to categorized based their origins and area. I will say it again, that Peloponnese is a big province and is obviously not homogenous.Peloponessians are not a small ethnic group like Pontian, Cappadocian or Thracian Greeks who are pretty much gomogenous groups intermixed each other for centuries. We have Greeks, later Slavs and other people from balkans who settled..and as Xirpkan said some individuals are west Asian admixed,Witch means the whole province varies.It varies also in Farmer/Steppe rations.

dosas
11-20-2020, 06:35 PM
Ok. I think self-published G25 coordinates are pretty well accepted on this site by lots of heavy hitters and used in their PCAs and other analysis. I am confused as to what makes this different.

I'm sorry Davidski gets grief for this modern spreadsheet, or that we are considered a "joke." I appreciate him and the other expert posters here greatly and am not trying to lift anyone up to that level of expertise. I keep in mind our G25 data comes from Davidski and his methods.



Davidski stopped his modern list partly thanks to our resident salt miners (and others, of course) who were constantly complaining that their own ancestry did not match the G25 database.

Now, we have self-proclaimed internet authorities, anonymous always, telling us that it's ok to accept northern admixtures in the reference Peloponnesian average because they say so, and disregard/downplay the academic sampling.

Without academic sampling, of course, there is no academic framework to draw conclusions from. We might as well move our discussion to the relevant troll boards.

Chatzianastasoglou
11-20-2020, 06:37 PM
When we form averages, we include all inhabitants of a region (for example Peloponnese) and don't choose them according to particular criterions. Arvanites are Peloponnesians as well, so they should be included too to the average. So should people who come out more northern shifted (because of whatever ancestry). They are all modern Peloponnesians in the same way

Dorian9
11-20-2020, 06:51 PM
Im going to try to buy a kit for my first cousin whos mom was from Laconia and there was at least one maternal grandparent from a Slavicized village. Im dying to see his results. He is 70 years old, lives in a trailer and cant afford a kit.

I don't think that village will make any difference , he'll will just be an "average" Laconian-Messinian mix ,these villages (Taygetos) are included in the Peloponnese study and IIRC they had a range from Laconia shifting to Mani.

Greekscholar
11-20-2020, 06:54 PM
Davidski stopped his modern list partly thanks to our resident salt miners (and others, of course) who were constantly complaining that their own ancestry did not match the G25 database.

Now, we have self-proclaimed internet authorities, anonymous always, telling us that it's ok to accept northern admixtures in the reference Peloponnesian average because they say so, and disregard/downplay the academic sampling.

Without academic sampling, of course, there is no academic framework to draw conclusions from. We might as well move our discussion to the relevant troll boards.

Fair points, which is why I think the new average should not be specfically labelled as "Peloponnese" because it shows a genetic profile found in many Greek regions based on the academic G25 samples we do have.

I guess I see a middle ground where self-reported ancestry is still useful for many of types of conversations that take place on this site. Without any new modern G25 samples from Davidski, it ends here unless there is some way to vet and add in new individuals for consideration and analysis.

xripkan
11-20-2020, 07:05 PM
Davidski stopped his modern list partly thanks to our resident salt miners (and others, of course) who were constantly complaining that their own ancestry did not match the G25 database.

Now, we have self-proclaimed internet authorities, anonymous always, telling us that it's ok to accept northern admixtures in the reference Peloponnesian average because they say so, and disregard/downplay the academic sampling.

Without academic sampling, of course, there is no academic framework to draw conclusions from. We might as well move our discussion to the relevant troll boards.

It's true that the process we follow is not scientific. We need indeed academic sampling to make safe conclusions and not random results from Peloponnesian individuals.
Despite that I think there is some merit in this process. These results are a strong indication that Peloponnese seems a genetically diverse region and despite I have no doubt the Peloponnese academic samples in Vahaduo are valid, they represent just a part of the population. This also makes sense if we take into consideration the history of the area and the various migrant waves.
I believe that in the future we will have a more clear picture about the genetics of the region and all the individual results we see will make more sense.

Johnny ola
11-20-2020, 07:07 PM
When we form averages, we include all inhabitants of a region (for example Peloponnese) and don't choose them according to particular criterions. Arvanites are Peloponnesians as well, so they should be included too to the average. So should people who come out more northern shifted (because of whatever ancestry). They are all modern Peloponnesians in the same way

Yes but even Peloponese varies as we seeing.It is way better and more accurate to seperate them depends region instead creating an average.It is obvious that not all of them have the same results.We don't have to do with Greek_Trabzon. As for Arvanites, if we take serious that they have been like South Albanians in terms of autosomal DNA, then diffrences are not that huge.

Chatzianastasoglou
11-20-2020, 07:16 PM
Yes but even Peloponese varies as we seeing.It is way better and more accurate to seperate them depends region instead creating an average.It is obvious that not all of them have the same results.We don't have to do with Greek_Trabzon. As for Arvanites, if we take serious that they have been like South Albanians in terms of autosomal DNA, then diffrences are not that huge.
Personally I find averages quite worthless because i bet also within the same village individuals will sometimes differ clearly from each other. The more diversity you have the less an average is "saying" sth. For example someone's results can match exactly the Peloponnesian average (which is a mixture of relatively diverse to each other people) and yet be no Peloponnesian himself or don't be close to any of these Peloponnesian individuals. Or you can be far from the Peloponnesian average but still have your closest matches to...Peloponnesian individuals.

iluvatar
11-20-2020, 07:47 PM
People are getting worked up for no reason.

The Peloponnese samples on the g25 are not that different from the rest of the mainland samples. They cluster just south of the northern Greek samples, which is were you would expect them to considering they are from the Peloponnese. For all we know they might represent the lower end estimate in terms of steppe for the Peloponnese.

The mainland is not diverse by any means. What minor substructure exists can be explained away in various ways be it Slavs, Vlachs, Arvanites, admixture from the islands, Anatolia or even preexisting substructure etc. Its pretty much impossible to reach any safe conclusions with such paucity of ancient-medieval samples and we could go around in circles arguing about this to no avail.

What is for for certain though is that 3 samples are not enough to proclaim that every mainland result that plots to the north of that is a result exclusively of Arvanite settlement (although it most likely is in certain cases). Especially considering how close Greeks and Albanians are (at least in terms of where they cluster on the pca) and considering that post Slavic Greeks would have already been similar to post Slavic Albanians considering such similarity is not restricted to areas of Albanian settlement.

Moderator
11-20-2020, 09:57 PM
All members are reminded to to keep the tone of their posts civil -- This thread is being monitored.

Dorian9
11-20-2020, 10:19 PM
Yes,agree with it. Peloponnese is definitely not a homogenous place.In general i do not believe mainland Greeks are homogenous.Even Macedonian Greeks,some of them coming Bulgarian like..while others are in some way closer to Thessalians and Albanians.Central Greece is also a similar case from kits we have seen,other's ploting more northern while others can reach the Peloponnese averages.Btw from Peloponnese i would like to see some samples-kits from northeast Arcadia or the area-part of the Tsakonian speakers if its possible.I am not sure if any pure Tsakonian village left and inhabit still today.

Obviously because they're of diverse backgrounds , I hope future studies will focus on specific tribes and and how they could differ from place to place other than just focusing at provinces.

Pre-exchange Macedonians were mix of older locals , internal migrants , Vlachs ,Sarakatsani etc ,one is not supposed to see it as a homogeneous place.
Central has Sarakatsani,Vlachs and Arvanites as well , my "theory" for their closeness to Peloponnesian average is that If you exclude those three its population(or some part of it) was Islandish at some point and that's judging by the Griko people who are probably 13-14th century migrants(same time Arbereshe also left) from Roumeli/Peloponnese .
(Those Roumeliots/Peloponnesians themselves to some extent* descended from Asia Minor Greeks who were settled(9th century) to replace the Slavs that were expelled to Asia Minor , this theory seemsto be supported by linguistics with the Koine Greek of Grikos-Peloponnese-Roumeli being of an Asia Minor variant. *Sicilian&Calabrian Greeks were also settled.)

Ofc I could be way off ,just saying these for the sake of discussion.


It is better the samples from Peloponnese to categorized based their origins and area. I will say it again, that Peloponnese is a big province and is obviously not homogenous.Peloponessians are not a small ethnic group like Pontian, Cappadocian or Thracian Greeks who are pretty much gomogenous groups intermixed each other for centuries. We have Greeks, later Slavs and other people from balkans who settled..and as Xirpkan said some individuals are west Asian admixed,Witch means the whole province varies.It varies also in Farmer/Steppe rations.

Pontus or Cappadocia are big provinces as well , their two furthest Greek settlements are as distant Peloponnese's furthest points and more , some places are not tested , others not enough samples ,others are mixed .Anything is possible.

Johnny ola
11-20-2020, 10:31 PM
Obviously because they're of diverse backgrounds , I hope future studies will focus on specific tribes and and how they could differ from place to place other than just focusing at provinces.

Pre-exchange Macedonians were mix of older locals , internal migrants , Vlachs ,Sarakatsani etc ,one is not supposed to see it as a homogeneous place.
Central has Sarakatsani,Vlachs and Arvanites as well , my "theory" for their closeness to Peloponnesian average is that If you exclude those three its population(or some part of it) was Islandish at some point and that's judging by the Griko people who are probably 13-14th century migrants(same time Arbereshe also left) from Roumeli/Peloponnese .
(Those Roumeliots/Peloponnesians themselves to some extent* descended from Asia Minor Greeks who were settled(9th century) to replace the Slavs that were expelled to Asia Minor , this theory seemsto be supported by linguistics with the Koine Greek of Grikos-Peloponnese-Roumeli being of an Asia Minor variant. *Sicilian&Calabrian Greeks were also settled.)

Ofc I could be way off ,just saying these for the sake of discussion.



Pontus or Cappadocia are big provinces as well , their two furthest Greek settlements are as distant Peloponnese's furthest points and more , some places are not tested , others not enough samples ,others are mixed .Anything is possible.

Cappadocian Greeks are not tested well.We got only 3 samples from them and they coming native anatolian mostly(Bronze Age).Pontic Greeks are very well tested but these Pontians coming mostly from the eastern parts(Trabzon,Giresun,Gumushane,Western Rize etc) and they are pretty homogenous(mostly caucasian+anatolian).We lack DNA and samples from western Pontians.I have seen only 2 kits with people coming from Amasya,Sinope and Ordu.They were genetically like Cappadocian Greeks.But the core of Pontic Greeks coming from the eastern parts mostly.Those from the western regions islamicized,other's died from Kemal troops.A few of them returned to Greece.Most Pontian Greeks coming from eastern parts and more specific from Trabzon.

Chatzianastasoglou
11-21-2020, 08:27 AM
Cappadocian Greeks are not tested well.We got only 3 samples from them and they coming native anatolian mostly(Bronze Age).Pontic Greeks are very well tested but these Pontians coming mostly from the eastern parts(Trabzon,Giresun,Gumushane,Western Rize etc) and they are pretty homogenous(mostly caucasian+anatolian).We lack DNA and samples from western Pontians.I have seen only 2 kits with people coming from Amasya,Sinope and Ordu.They were genetically like Cappadocian Greeks.But the core of Pontic Greeks coming from the eastern parts mostly.Those from the western regions islamicized,other's died from Kemal troops.A few of them returned to Greece.Most Pontian Greeks coming from eastern parts and more specific from Trabzon.
What exactly is Western Pontos geographically?

dosas
11-21-2020, 08:49 AM
What exactly is Western Pontos geographically?

West of Giresun. Pontus is Trabzon-Gumushane-Rize.

Johnny ola
11-21-2020, 09:00 AM
What exactly is Western Pontos geographically?

As Dosas told you the areas western from Giresun. More Specific Amasya, Nikser, Ordu(Kotyora), Samsun, Sinope etc. These people were Turkophone mostly like Other Anatolian Greeks. Pontic Greeks from eastern Pontus were Greek speaking(Pontic Greek dialect). The thing With western Pontus is that most of them died or Islamicized. Most of western Pontians coming from Samsun today, but sadly We lack samples and DNA from them.I have seen only One sample from Samsun and Amasya and the guy was like Cappadocian Greeks. It seems the western regions are more Anatolian and they lack the Caucasus input of Eastern Pontus.

Chatzianastasoglou
11-21-2020, 09:33 AM
As Dosas told you the areas western from Giresun. More Specific Amasya, Nikser, Ordu(Kotyora), Samsun, Sinope etc. These people were Turkophone mostly like Other Anatolian Greeks. Pontic Greeks from eastern Pontus were Greek speaking(Pontic Greek dialect). The thing With western Pontus is that most of them died or Islamicized. Most of western Pontians coming from Samsun today, but sadly We lack samples and DNA from them.I have seen only One sample from Samsun and Amasya and the guy was like Cappadocian Greeks. It seems the western regions are more Anatolian and they lack the Caucasus input of Eastern Pontus.
True. We have the village Nea Sinopi in Preveza. And they speak Turkish.

Johnny ola
11-21-2020, 09:38 AM
True. We have the village Nea Sinopi in Preveza. And they speak Turkish.

Yes.Western Pontians,Cappadocian Greeks(especially from Kayiseri and Konya),Anatolian Greeks from west coast(and Costantinoupoli too) were mostly Turkish speakers or bilingual.Οnly eastern Pontians remained Greek speaking and i think this has to do because of the geographical position and the isolated parts,that they used to live.

lacreme
11-21-2020, 03:26 PM
......
But we don't know the exact profile of Aegean and Western Anatolian part.
Based on that I can't make any safe conclusions. I find more possible that he is 25% Peloponnesian. His maternal grandpa should be in the range of Western anatolian/Cyclades without excluding the possibility of an Aegean-shifted Peloponnesian.

I'm sorry for quoting you again, just wanted to say that you may be onto something.
I added the new Greek averages in the g25 modern database and run my friend again to see his new distances and mixes... Not much changed obviously but this time I thought about playing a little more with ADC, I usually go up to 0.25x , and at 0.5x I got the following mix

Distance: 1.4430% / 0.01443015
Target: Chris_scaled | ADC: 0.5x RC
71.9 Greek_Izmir
23.4 Italian_Abruzzo
4.7 Iranian_Mazandarani

Isn't the Abruzzo among the closest Italian regions to southern Greece and somewhat balkan shifted from the ancient and medieval migrations there ?
Could it work as a proxy for his Peloponnesian ancestry ? If so wouldn't it be higher,or another mix of populations would show up altogether, if he was almost half Peloponnesian and with a probable NW-Greek profile at that ?

xripkan
11-21-2020, 05:14 PM
I'm sorry for quoting you again, just wanted to say that you may be onto something.
I added the new Greek averages in the g25 modern database and run my friend again to see his new distances and mixes... Not much changed obviously but this time I thought about playing a little more with ADC, I usually go up to 0.25x , and at 0.5x I got the following mix

Distance: 1.4430% / 0.01443015
Target: Chris_scaled | ADC: 0.5x RC
71.9 Greek_Izmir
23.4 Italian_Abruzzo
4.7 Iranian_Mazandarani

Isn't the Abruzzo among the closest Italian regions to southern Greece and somewhat balkan shifted from the ancient and medieval migrations there ?
Could it work as a proxy for his Peloponnesian ancestry ? If so wouldn't it be higher,or another mix of populations would show up altogether, if he was almost half Peloponnesian and with a probable NW-Greek profile at that ?

Abruzzo is a proxy for a Peloponnesian. However his grandpa must be more Northern shifted. So if we are talking about 25% ancestry from a NW-Greek profile like the maternal grandpa the rest seems a mix of Western Anatolian and Aegean or maybe a genatic profile similar to new Lakonia samples.

lacreme
11-21-2020, 05:50 PM
Abruzzo is a proxy for a Peloponnesian. However his grandpa must be more Northern shifted. So if we are talking about 25% ancestry from a NW-Greek profile like the maternal grandpa the rest seems a mix of Western Anatolian and Aegean or maybe a genatic profile similar to new Lakonia samples.

My comment was made by crediting the 25% Peloponnesian solely on his paternal grandmother who is from east Elis,close to the borders with Arcadia. Due to the location of her village and the history of the area her profile should be somewhat close to his recognised as maternal grandfather, possibly a little bit more southern/southeastern. Taking this condition into account, wouldn't your theory about a possible aegean shifted peloponnesian, western anatolian or from cyclades biological maternal grandpa be quite believeable ? I think that the 75% that remains (Izmir+Mazandarani) can account for the mix of the rest of his known ancestry plus an unknown person with a genetic profile as you've described.

what do you think ?

xripkan
11-21-2020, 07:44 PM
My comment was made by crediting the 25% Peloponnesian solely on his paternal grandmother who is from east Elis,close to the borders with Arcadia. Due to the location of her village and the history of the area her profile should be somewhat close to his recognised as maternal grandfather, possibly a little bit more southern/southeastern. Taking this condition into account, wouldn't your theory about a possible aegean shifted peloponnesian, western anatolian or from cyclades biological maternal grandpa be quite believeable ? I think that the 75% that remains (Izmir+Mazandarani) can account for the mix of the rest of his known ancestry plus an unknown person with a genetic profile as you've described.

what do you think ?


Running a model with all the Greek references this is what we get


Distance: 1.4988% / 0.01498759
Target: Chris_scaled | ADC: 0.5x RC
57.5 Greek_Izmir
24.1 Greek_Crete
18.4 Greek_Thessaly

He could be 1/4 Peloponnesian 1/4 Cretan and the rest plots close to Izmir reference. So the specific 1/4 must have this genetic profile we are describing above.

lacreme
11-21-2020, 08:14 PM
Running a model with all the Greek references this is what we get


Distance: 1.4988% / 0.01498759
Target: Chris_scaled | ADC: 0.5x RC
57.5 Greek_Izmir
24.1 Greek_Crete
18.4 Greek_Thessaly

He could be 1/4 Peloponnesian 1/4 Cretan and the rest plots close to Izmir reference. So his the specific 1/4 must have this genetic profile we are describing above.

Do you mean the Aegean shifted/western anatolian/cyclades profile ?

xripkan
11-21-2020, 08:22 PM
Do you mean the Aegean shifted/western anatolian/cyclades profile ?

Exactly. This is the most possible.

TonyC
11-22-2020, 01:41 AM
Abruzzo is a proxy for a Peloponnesian. However his grandpa must be more Northern shifted. So if we are talking about 25% ancestry from a NW-Greek profile like the maternal grandpa the rest seems a mix of Western Anatolian and Aegean or maybe a genatic profile similar to new Lakonia samples.

Really I was thinking Molise or Umbria would be a better proxy. For me Abruzzo is pretty distant. If you look at the expanded samples compared to Peloponnese Molise, Marche come before Abruzzo.

xripkan
11-22-2020, 02:09 AM
Really I was thinking Molise or Umbria would be a better proxy. For me Abruzzo is pretty distant. If you look at the expanded samples compared to Peloponnese Molise, Marche come before Abruzzo.

It depends. Abruzzo is the second closest population (Smyrna is the first) for the old Greek Peloponese reference. It is also quite close to the new Peloponnesian references but after Molise and Marche. For Lakonia, Basilicata is the closest Italian reference. In general Abruzzo is in South-Central Italian cluster and it is quite close to Peloponnesians. In my case it is first Molise then Abruzzo and then Marche

lacreme
11-22-2020, 07:58 AM
Really I was thinking Molise or Umbria would be a better proxy. For me Abruzzo is pretty distant. If you look at the expanded samples compared to Peloponnese Molise, Marche come before Abruzzo.

For my friend's model with 0,5 ADC I didn't choose the populations used, I let it run with the complete list+the new Greek averages.

Also, just like the old Peloponnesian average his closest population is Izmir followed by Abruzzo



Distance to: Chris_scaled
0.01590548 Greek_Izmir
0.02131083 Italian_Abruzzo
0.02189585 Greek_Peloponnese
0.02305019 Italian_Apulia
0.02339733 Italian_Basilicata
0.02354511 Italian_Molise
0.02545619 Italian_Campania
0.02716752 Greek_Crete
0.02830139 Italian_Calabria
0.02899225 Italian_Umbria
0.02958131 Italian_Lazio
0.03008082 Italian_Marche
0.03009302 Ashkenazi_Belarussia
0.03034047 Greek_Thessaly
0.03067671 Ashkenazi_Russia
0.03153811 Ashkenazi_Lithuania
0.03185159 Sicilian_East
0.03278883 Ashkenazi_Ukraine
0.03326413 Ashkenazi_Poland
0.03412203 Sicilian_West
0.03417857 Greek_Central_Macedonia
0.03470665 Greek_Kos
0.03594635 Albanian
0.03720468 Italian_Tuscany
0.03745268 Ashkenazi_Germany

xripkan
11-24-2020, 11:35 PM
For my friend's model with 0,5 ADC I didn't choose the populations used, I let it run with the complete list+the new Greek averages.

Also, just like the old Peloponnesian average his closest population is Izmir followed by Abruzzo



Distance to: Chris_scaled
0.01590548 Greek_Izmir
0.02131083 Italian_Abruzzo
0.02189585 Greek_Peloponnese
0.02305019 Italian_Apulia
0.02339733 Italian_Basilicata
0.02354511 Italian_Molise
0.02545619 Italian_Campania
0.02716752 Greek_Crete
0.02830139 Italian_Calabria
0.02899225 Italian_Umbria
0.02958131 Italian_Lazio
0.03008082 Italian_Marche
0.03009302 Ashkenazi_Belarussia
0.03034047 Greek_Thessaly
0.03067671 Ashkenazi_Russia
0.03153811 Ashkenazi_Lithuania
0.03185159 Sicilian_East
0.03278883 Ashkenazi_Ukraine
0.03326413 Ashkenazi_Poland
0.03412203 Sicilian_West
0.03417857 Greek_Central_Macedonia
0.03470665 Greek_Kos
0.03594635 Albanian
0.03720468 Italian_Tuscany
0.03745268 Ashkenazi_Germany


Lacreme, I had heard that myheritage in the past did not provide raw data for a while. Since you posted new gedmatch and g25 results probably there is not such a problem anymore, right? A friend of mine intends to order for himself and I want to know if there is any difference with other companies regarding the raw data.
By the way did your friend's mother receive her results?

lacreme
11-25-2020, 07:59 AM
Lacreme, I had heard that myheritage in the past did not provide raw data for a while. Since you posted new gedmatch and g25 results probably there is not such a problem anymore, right? A friend of mine intends to order for himself and I want to know if there is any difference with other companies regarding the raw data.
By the way did your friend's mother receive her results?

This whole year at least There was no problem, it's available to download the moment your results are available.

Not yet, still at dna extraction process since the 17th