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Helves
11-19-2020, 09:21 PM
I recently found a Gedmatch kit of a guy who is 50% Assyrian/Syriac from Mardin(SE Turkey, near Syrian border) and 50% Jewish from Nusaybin(also located in Mardin). What do you guys know about the Jews of Nusaybin?

Here are his Dodecad k12b results with the updated spreadsheet. I can post other calcs by request.

Dodecad K12b

Gedrosia 18.21 Pct
Siberian 0.54 Pct
Northwest_African 2.19 Pct
Southeast_Asian -
Atlantic_Med 10.8 Pct
North_European 3.88 Pct
South_Asian 0.06 Pct
East_African -
Southwest_Asian 18.64 Pct
East_Asian -
Caucasus 45.67 Pct
Sub_Saharan -


Distance to: Assyrian+Jew_Mardin
2.43762179 Azeri_Jew
2.55744013 Assyrian_South
2.59788375 Assyrian_North
2.67316292 Assyrian_West
4.25613675 Iranian_Jew
4.41712576 Kurdish_Jew
5.15260128 Mandaean
5.18893053 Iraqi_Jew
5.23612452 Armenian_West
7.25076548 Armenian_East
7.88684981 Turk_East
8.57447374 Nusayri_Turkey
8.97987194 Udi_Azerbaijan
9.24427931 Syrian_B
9.29716086 Lebanese_Muslim
9.39795722 Iraqi_Baghdad
9.42382088 Turkmen_Iraq
9.66654023 Zaza
9.94074947 Syrian_A
10.75072091 Kurd_Kurmanji
11.15280234 Lebanese_Christian
11.29821667 Kurd_Sorani
11.36788459 Turk_Southeast
11.70861221 Greek_Pontus
11.81816822 Greek_Cappadocia

Distance: 97.3150% / 0.97314968
Target: Assyrian+Jew_Mardin | ADC: 0.25x RC
48.7 Azeri_Jew
45.9 Assyrian_West
2.7 Lak
1.5 Algerian
1.2 Karelian

Worth mentioning there are a lot of Azeri/Caucasus, Iranian and Iraqi Jews on Gedmatch and he doesn't match with them in the one-to-many option.

leorcooper19
11-19-2020, 10:12 PM
Thanks for posting!

Do you mind sharing their Eurogenes K13 results?

Cool to see a pretty simple split between Azeri_Jew and Assyrian_West. This may imply that the Jews of this area were more similar to Persian and Mountain Jews as opposed to Iraqi and Georgian Jews. Hard to say whether or not that's just due to him being half Assyrian though.

Any uniparentals associated with the kit?

Helves
11-19-2020, 10:31 PM
Thanks for posting!

Do you mind sharing their Eurogenes K13 results?

Cool to see a pretty simple split between Azeri_Jew and Assyrian_West. This may imply that the Jews of this area were more similar to Persian and Mountain Jews as opposed to Iraqi and Georgian Jews. Hard to say whether or not that's just due to him being half Assyrian though

Yes ofc. His K13 results are a bit atypical though. Very high East Med but low Red Sea at the same time, his relatively low-ish West Asian points rather to Iraqi/Kurdish Jews rather than Caucasus Jews with this one. I think it's clear though that he's not part Syrian Jewish, right?

North_Atlantic 4.51 Pct
Baltic -
West_Med 7.77 Pct
West_Asian 31.11 Pct
East_Med 45.59 Pct
Red_Sea 7.83 Pct
South_Asian 2.78 Pct
East_Asian -
Siberian 0.34 Pct
Amerindian 0.08 Pct
Oceanian -
Northeast_African -
Sub-Saharan -

Distance to: Assyrian+Jew_Mardin
6.41672814 Iraqi_Jew
6.69354166 Kurdish_Jewish
7.59771018 Mandean
7.88468135 Assyrian_West
8.13263180 Assyrian_South
8.32639178 Assyrian_North
9.13957329 Mountain_Jew_Chechnya
11.02642281 Lebanese_Druze
11.52959236 Nusayri
11.92527149 Georgian_Jewish
11.94008375 Armenian_West
12.38685997 Lebanese_Muslim
13.45259083 Armenian
14.06311488 Iraqi_Baghdad
14.24133421 Lebanese_Christian
14.44554603 Greek_Trabzon
14.73161566 Greek_Caucasus
15.14840256 Armenian_East
15.18589477 Syrian
15.27343445 Greek_Cappadocian
15.61517531 Turkmen_Iraq
17.00410539 Turk_South_East
17.02963006 Samaritan
17.25257082 Greek_Cypriot
17.49628532 Jordanian


Any uniparentals associated with the kit?
Not atm. His close relative from his Assyrian side is active on Reddit I can maybe ask him.

StillWater
11-19-2020, 11:39 PM
How did this marriage happen?

jkotl0327
11-19-2020, 11:50 PM
I recently found a Gedmatch kit of a guy who is 50% Assyrian/Syriac from Mardin(SE Turkey, near Syrian border) and 50% Jewish from Nusaybin(also located in Mardin). What do you guys know about the Jews of Nusaybin?

Here are his Dodecad k12b results with the updated spreadsheet. I can post other calcs by request.

Dodecad K12b

Gedrosia 18.21 Pct
Siberian 0.54 Pct
Northwest_African 2.19 Pct
Southeast_Asian -
Atlantic_Med 10.8 Pct
North_European 3.88 Pct
South_Asian 0.06 Pct
East_African -
Southwest_Asian 18.64 Pct
East_Asian -
Caucasus 45.67 Pct
Sub_Saharan -


Distance to: Assyrian+Jew_Mardin
2.43762179 Azeri_Jew
2.55744013 Assyrian_South
2.59788375 Assyrian_North
2.67316292 Assyrian_West
4.25613675 Iranian_Jew
4.41712576 Kurdish_Jew
5.15260128 Mandaean
5.18893053 Iraqi_Jew
5.23612452 Armenian_West
7.25076548 Armenian_East
7.88684981 Turk_East
8.57447374 Nusayri_Turkey
8.97987194 Udi_Azerbaijan
9.24427931 Syrian_B
9.29716086 Lebanese_Muslim
9.39795722 Iraqi_Baghdad
9.42382088 Turkmen_Iraq
9.66654023 Zaza
9.94074947 Syrian_A
10.75072091 Kurd_Kurmanji
11.15280234 Lebanese_Christian
11.29821667 Kurd_Sorani
11.36788459 Turk_Southeast
11.70861221 Greek_Pontus
11.81816822 Greek_Cappadocia

Distance: 97.3150% / 0.97314968
Target: Assyrian+Jew_Mardin | ADC: 0.25x RC
48.7 Azeri_Jew
45.9 Assyrian_West
2.7 Lak
1.5 Algerian
1.2 Karelian

Worth mentioning there are a lot of Azeri/Caucasus, Iranian and Iraqi Jews on Gedmatch and he doesn't match with them in the one-to-many option.

None of these results seem unexpected. Many Jews en route to Israel lived there temporarily, some might have stayed behind, including from the Caucasus. Several hundred Jews lived there locally before Israel was established but they moved to Israel.

Helves
11-20-2020, 12:06 AM
How did this marriage happen?
I don't know tbh. Marriage with Jews was and still is very uncommon if not non-existent from what I've heard from my grandparents(they lived near Arbil in Iraq and it's large Jewish population back then). I think his Jewish parent converted and assimilated since he now lives in Sweden like many other Assyrians from Mardin.

None of these results seem unexpected. Many Jews en route to Israel lived there temporarily, some might have stayed behind, including from the Caucasus. Several hundred Jews lived there locally before Israel was established but they moved to Israel.
The thing is though that he doesn't match with the numerous Mountain, Iranian or Iraqi Jews who are on Gedmatch. Most of these groups match closely with eachother with the one-to-many option.

Was there a native Jewish population in Nusaybin? Did they speak Arabic?

StillWater
11-20-2020, 12:25 AM
Does he get close Jewish cousin matches? Where are they from?

Helves
11-20-2020, 12:40 AM
Does he get close Jewish cousin matches? Where are they from?

No he has only a couple Assyrian matches.

jkotl0327
11-20-2020, 03:39 AM
I don't know tbh. Marriage with Jews was and still is very uncommon if not non-existent from what I've heard from my grandparents(they lived near Arbil in Iraq and it's large Jewish population back then). I think his Jewish parent converted and assimilated since he now lives in Sweden like many other Assyrians from Mardin.

The thing is though that he doesn't match with the numerous Mountain, Iranian or Iraqi Jews who are on Gedmatch. Most of these groups match closely with eachother with the one-to-many option.

Was there a native Jewish population in Nusaybin? Did they speak Arabic?

There was, it was a pretty important Jewish center in Talmudic times, but by Israel's founding the population was very small. Not sure but I think they spoke Judeo-Arabic, but maybe it was Aramaic, I'm not sure.

Helves
11-20-2020, 12:25 PM
There was, it was a pretty important Jewish center in Talmudic times, but by Israel's founding the population was very small. Not sure but I think they spoke Judeo-Arabic, but maybe it was Aramaic, I'm not sure.

I think they must be close to Kurdish Jews too. Not many Kurdish Jews on Gedmatch which explains why he has no close matches.

Targum
11-20-2020, 03:50 PM
I think they must be close to Kurdish Jews too. Not many Kurdish Jews on Gedmatch which explains why he has no close matches.

They spoke Jewish Neo-Aramaic; In Israel they are considered a sub-group of Kurdistan-origin Jews

Erikl86
11-20-2020, 04:58 PM
Most likely related to Urfalim.

Helves
11-20-2020, 05:22 PM
They spoke Jewish Neo-Aramaic; In Israel they are considered a sub-group of Kurdistan-origin Jews
I know Neo Aramaic speaking Jews extended as far west as modern day Cizre in the Sirnak province of Turkey. Not heard anything about Nusaybin Jews though.

Most likely related to Urfalim.
Are they also grouped under Kurdish Jews? What language did they speak?

Targum
11-20-2020, 08:05 PM
Jewish Neo-Aramaic like @Erikl86 wrote; and under general grouping of Kurdistan Jews

Erikl86
11-21-2020, 06:39 PM
I know Neo Aramaic speaking Jews extended as far west as modern day Cizre in the Sirnak province of Turkey. Not heard anything about Nusaybin Jews though.

Are they also grouped under Kurdish Jews? What language did they speak?

All of South-Eastern Anatolian Jewish communities remained Aramaic speaking until modern days. As a matter of fact, judging by the amount of Aramaic words in Juhuri (the language of Mountain Jews) I'd say that even they have been most probably "Iranianized" by later coming Persian Jews and that the original earlier Jewish community also spoke mainly Aramaic.

Helves
11-21-2020, 07:29 PM
All of South-Eastern Anatolian Jewish communities remained Aramaic speaking until modern days. As a matter of fact, judging by the amount of Aramaic words in Juhuri (the language of Mountain Jews) I'd say that even they have been most probably "Iranianized" by later coming Persian Jews and that the original earlier Jewish community also spoke mainly Aramaic.

That's really interesting. I've been reading on the various Neo-Aramaic dialects and never seen any mention of Neo Aramaic speaking Jews further west/north than Cizre/Sirnak, I suppose other SE Anatolian Jews have fully shifted to Hebrew nowadays and that's why they aren't included in the litterature I've read.
I wonder if Mountain Jews spoke North Eastern Neo Aramaic aswell, like us and Kurdish Jews or another variety.

Erikl86
11-22-2020, 09:03 AM
That's really interesting. I've been reading on the various Neo-Aramaic dialects and never seen any mention of Neo Aramaic speaking Jews further west/north than Cizre/Sirnak, I suppose other SE Anatolian Jews have fully shifted to Hebrew nowadays and that's why they aren't included in the litterature I've read.
I wonder if Mountain Jews spoke North Eastern Neo Aramaic aswell, like us and Kurdish Jews or another variety.

Here's the pre-1948 spread of Judeo-Aramaic dialects spoken by the different Aramaic speaking communities:

41325

Targum
11-23-2020, 12:14 AM
I apologize if someone (Agamemnon?) already mentioned this, but Nusaybin was well referenced in the Babylonian Talmud, written there as נציבין Netzivin “sentries” or “standing guards” in Hebrew.

Hebrew Wiki:
https://he.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D7%A0%D7%A6%D7%99%D7%91%D7%99%D7%9F