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Paulo Lucena
11-20-2020, 10:40 AM
Good morning to all:

I need a help to discover more about my origins: I made in the beginning of this year the Big Y test of FTDNA, and the results was J-Y192191 (or J-FT228953), a subclade linked at J-Y8537, that is tipically arab.

I transfer the results to Yfull site (YF71874), and my and another guy of Brazil are the only ocidental samples below of the Y8537 three, that have almost 600 samples (all of them from middle east and north africa, except us)

My paternal family (Lucena) is very ancient in Brazil, with roots in Spain (city of Lucena, in Andaluzia) and with imigration to Portugal in the XV century and Brazil in the XVI century, and we don’t have any ancestor in the last five centuries with arabian roots.

I read about the J1 haplogroup in Spain and Portugal, and noted that is not common, mainly with this especific recent arab subclades (this Y192191 mutation was formed 1350 years ago, in the estimative of Yfull).

Someone can help me to solve this mistery?

J1 DYS388=13
11-20-2020, 02:19 PM
Mystery? Your branch is 800 years old. Who ruled Iberia 800 years ago?

Paulo Lucena
11-20-2020, 02:31 PM
I know.

And this is good to unmake the mith that the arabs don’t leave almost none genetic heritage in Ibéria.

In fact, I think that we have many J1 haplogroups descendants in all Northeast of Brazil.

But the most part of the muslins that ruled the region was from North Africa (haplogroup E, not J), not Middle East.

The true mistery is what arab tribe (I have many matches from Saudi Arabia and Iraq) I have kinship.

Some clues indicate to Hawazin tribe, from Hijaz (close to Meca and Medina).

RCO
11-20-2020, 02:45 PM
Bem-vindo Paulo !

You are in the middle of large Arab tribes so the connection is direct. I hope we can find more samples from your cluster in the next years in order to detect your trail in Iberia or Portugal/Spain.
https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y192191/

Paulo Lucena
11-20-2020, 03:53 PM
Yes Ricardo, I hope so!

The genetic study is a exercise of patience.

I think that in some moment will arise a sample from Iberia and/or Saudi Arabia/Iraq making the link between my case and the arabs.

Caius Agrippa
11-21-2020, 10:51 AM
I think that in some moment will arise a sample from Iberia and/or Saudi Arabia/Iraq making the link between my case and the arabs.

I know it is obvious that your haplogroup reached Brazil from Iberia but the question still stands if the Iberian branch in which your haplogroup originated still exists in Iberia. Take into consideration that near half of the Portuguese population moved to Brazil in the 1500-1822 period, it is definitely the most important demographic event in Portuguese history, outliers that do not exist in Portugal anymore could have all ended up in Brazil.

Paulo Lucena
11-21-2020, 03:55 PM
It’s a good point, Caius. I didn’t know about this percentage of portuguese imigration to Brazil, is amazing.

The guy that share the subclade Y-192191 with me I didn’t know until this year, and we don’t have any ancestor in common at least in the last two centuries.

I think too that maybe some of colonial families in Brazil has escaped from Portugal because ethnic/religious questions, and find here a place to maintain your next generations in peace.

And we only listen about New christian families like jewish.

But my case shows that the “mouros” too converted in christians and went to Brazil, and about this cases we have almost a silence in the Academy.

Piquerobi
11-21-2020, 04:29 PM
What is odd is that you have not found (so far) matches among Iberians or among Iberian descendants in Latin America outside Brazil. There is the possibility, even if arguably small, judging by that, that it could come from an unknown person who somehow came directly from the Islamic world to Brazil. Time will tell.

This is from a study on J-L222 and Iberia:


J1a2b2a-L222.2 is limited to the Arabian Peninsula and North Africa with its highest frequencies in the Sfax population of Tunisia (25.0%), Beja, Tunisia (15.3%) and Morocco (16.7%), all in Northwest Africa. This mutation was not detected in the Iberian Peninsula in the present study. The genealogical ages for this mutation range from 2.10 ± 0.72 in the population of Egypt to 1.20 ± 0.56 in Oman, Arabia. Although these dates represent approximations, they are indicative of a recent mutational event possibly just prior to the Muslim conquest of northern Africa and the Islamic incursion into Iberia. The higher frequencies of L222.2 in Qatar (39.0%) may reflect its genesis in the Arabian region and a subsequent westward clinal dispersal. Therefore, just like the comparable STR diversity under the M81 mutation in Iberia and North Africa may be indicative of multiple, possibly pre-Islamic migration of North Africans into Iberia, the absence of L222.2 in Spain is congruent with gene flow across the Strait of Gibraltar prior to the L222.2 mutation or genetic drift that deleted the mutation in Iberia.
From Arabia to Iberia: A Y chromosome perspective, 2015, Regueiro et al
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25701402

A Spaniard on this forum discovered he carries J-L222:

https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?8354-midlle-eastearn-and-Near-East-admixture-in-a-Spaniard/page3&highlight=Mexican

RCO
11-21-2020, 04:47 PM
They have Iberian surnames, they don't know about any recent immigration to Brazil from MENA (Middle East and North Africa) countries, both Brazilians have TMRCA 800 ybp in a large and expansionist Arab branch related to the first Muslim conquests and they don't have visible Arab or MENA autosomal components/proportions, so the common ancestor lived in Iberia and probably in the end of Islamic Period, if they can't find other Iberian matches that could be related to the same situation of former Jewish/Moor/Arab lineages crackdown in Iberia after the Reconquista and the expulsion of non-Catholics.

Piquerobi
11-21-2020, 04:51 PM
Still Latin America has a very large population and matches should appear. Probably they will. As for names, they could be changed in Brazil. If the origins are in our colonial period, then memories of it could have been lost.

Piquerobi
11-21-2020, 05:26 PM
@Paulo Lucena. I would advise you to join groups on Family Tree DNA and look for matches there too besides yfull matches. Your lineage is definitely worth investigating.

Paulo Lucena
11-21-2020, 10:55 PM
I have my complete paternal family tree since XVIII century. My ancestor Anselmo Pereira de Lucena lived in Pernambuco this period (my male lineage goes directly to him). History books shows that Anselmo was descendant of Vasco Fernandes de Lucena, a new christian that went to Pernambuco in 1535 with Duarte Coelho.

So, I’m sure that at least the XVIII century my paternal lineage was in Pernambuco, and it’s probably since the beginning of colonization (XVI century)

Paulo Lucena
11-21-2020, 11:02 PM
Piquerobi, I’m in some of this groups in FTDNA and Yfull. Including I have had contact with arab matches to try discover the original tribe of this semitic ancestor.

I will pay atention in news matches from Iberia or Latin America.

Piquerobi
11-21-2020, 11:05 PM
^ You probably get back to Arabia via Iberia then. According to this link, the grandfather of Vasco Fernandes de Lucena hailed from Andalusia.

https://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vasco_Fernandes_de_Lucena

Due to a variety of reasons, the Arabian clades of J1 seem to be quite rare in Iberia nowadays. Where are your 25, 37 and 67 markers matches on Family Tree DNA from?

Here is an interesting study on the subject (Ibn Hazm famous compilation of families is mentioned; topic II, "el problema tribal"):

https://www.almendron.com/artehistoria/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/invasion_arabe.pdf

alchemist223
11-21-2020, 11:09 PM
Hi Paulo,

This would be a very good thread for you to participate in, as it deals with your haplogroup:
https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?15741-J-Y10887-FGC1695-among-non-Arabs-(subclade-of-FGC11)

Paulo Lucena
11-22-2020, 02:04 AM
^ You probably get back to Arabia via Iberia then. According to this link, the grandfather of Vasco Fernandes de Lucena hailed from Andalusia.

https://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vasco_Fernandes_de_Lucena

Due to a variety of reasons, the Arabian clades of J1 seem to be quite rare in Iberia nowadays. Where are your 25, 37 and 67 markers matches on Family Tree DNA from?

Here is an interesting study on the subject (Ibn Hazm famous compilation of families is mentioned; topic II, "el problema tribal"):

https://www.almendron.com/artehistoria/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/invasion_arabe.pdf

Very interesting the study, shows many arab tribes that went to Andaluzia in the beginning of the arab period, and some of them married with christians. I believe in this thesis to my case.

Thanks!

In relation of my matches of YDNA in FTDNA, with 67 markers I have 4 matches: the closest is Iraqi, the second is Márcio Passos (the brazilian guy that shares the Y192191 with me) and another two arabs that I don´t know to identify the country, but probably saudis (in Yfull the majority of matches of SNP and STR are iraqis and saudis).

With 37 markers I have 22 matches, with the closest being my cousin (Brazilian) in 5th grade (the same male lineage that arrives in a common ancestor Anselmo Pereira de Lucena), one guy with a portuguese name (Albert Mello Sr), but that aparently lives in USA, one armenian, one marroqui, one algerian, and the others arabs (mainly iraqis and saudis, probably).

With 25 markers I have more than 900 matches, the immense majority arabs from Arabic Peninsula and Iraq.

Agamemnon
11-22-2020, 02:35 AM
Y8537 is found in several different Arab tribes, among them we have the Bani Abs (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banu_Abs), Tamim (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banu_Tamim), Hawazin (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawazin), Judham (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banu_Judham) and Shararat (https://ar.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D8%A7%D9%84%D8%B4%D8%B1%D8%A7%D8%B1%D8%A7%D8%AA). The first three are Adnanite and the others are Qahtanite, obviously the lineage cannot be both at the same time considering its age, if we are to ascribe one origin I'd say the odds are in favour of an Adnanite origin (not assuming that the mythical genealogy is necessarily correct, only that the underlying tribal structure isn't entirely fanciful).

What all of these do have in common is that they figured prominently among the Arabian conquerors who made it to Iberia and settled there (the 8th governor of Al-Andalus was from Abs for example).

subzero85
11-22-2020, 05:14 AM
Y8537 is found in several different Arab tribes, among them we have the Bani Abs (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banu_Abs), Tamim (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banu_Tamim), Hawazin (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawazin), Judham (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banu_Judham) and Shararat (https://ar.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D8%A7%D9%84%D8%B4%D8%B1%D8%A7%D8%B1%D8%A7%D8%AA). The first three are Adnanite and the others are Qahtanite, obviously the lineage cannot be both at the same time considering its age, if we are to ascribe one origin I'd say the odds are in favour of an Adnanite origin (not assuming that the mythical genealogy is necessarily correct, only that the underlying tribal structure isn't entirely fanciful).

What all of these do have in common is that they figured prominently among the Arabian conquerors who made it to Iberia and settled there (the 8th governor of Al-Andalus was from Abs for example).

I wouldn’t take the Adnanite vs Qahtanite divide seriously.

Banu Tamim is massive and has members across a wide variety of subclades, many of them are not even J1.

TheIncredibleHulk
11-23-2020, 06:27 PM
Y8537 is found in several different Arab tribes, among them we have the Bani Abs (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banu_Abs), Tamim (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banu_Tamim), Hawazin (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawazin), Judham (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banu_Judham) and Shararat (https://ar.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D8%A7%D9%84%D8%B4%D8%B1%D8%A7%D8%B1%D8%A7%D8%AA). The first three are Adnanite and the others are Qahtanite, obviously the lineage cannot be both at the same time considering its age, if we are to ascribe one origin I'd say the odds are in favour of an Adnanite origin (not assuming that the mythical genealogy is necessarily correct, only that the underlying tribal structure isn't entirely fanciful).

What all of these do have in common is that they figured prominently among the Arabian conquerors who made it to Iberia and settled there (the 8th governor of Al-Andalus was from Abs for example).

Ahed Tamimi belong to the Tamimi tribe, and uh, yeah, the Arab civil war in say in the 7th century AD in Israel/Palestine was pretty much a tribal divide between these two groups(the Qays and Yamani rivarly: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qays%E2%80%93Yaman_rivalry#List_of_Qays%E2%80%93Ya man_affiliations), you know? According to Jallad, the old Arabic dialects that were brought from Arabia converged not only with the pre-Arabic languages of the Levant but also with the Northern Arabic dialects of the Levant as well. I mean, I know that I had said this many times here, but one should look at the history of the Levant based on convergence, not exclusion which was a many centuries old process.

Yes, this whole "Adnanites versus Qahtanites" genealogies are indeed mythical , and we shouldn't take them seriously since now we know that Arabs as a whole did not originated in the heartland of Arabia but rather - as you said in the past - somewhere in the black desert region of Eastern Jordan, Southern Syria and Northern Saudi Arabia, and the earliest references of Arabic speaking tribes were from that region. While most of the Yemenite Arabic dialects do display both the Old Southern and Modern South Arabian substrates, some dialects are derived from Proto-Arabic itself according to Jallad(Central Tihami) which is true for the Arabic dialects spoken in the Najd region of Saudi Arabia and these guys from Jabel Fayfa, Saudi Arabia:
https://mobile.twitter.com/Safaitic/status/1251506412217339906
https://mobile.twitter.com/Safaitic/status/1250457985291358208
https://twitter.com/Safaitic/status/1298609146158342144

Also, the dialects that are spoken in Al-Rith region in South-West Saudi Arabia display a strong non-Arabic subsrate according to Jallad which these ancient murials that have South Semitic script writing could be that said unknown language:
https://twitter.com/Safaitic/status/1271135460362989568

I mean, I don't want to derail this thread, but it would be interesting to learn about the proto-Arabs and their respective Y-DNA to get an idea on how it spread from their homeland to the rest of Arabia and so on, you know? I mean, the fact that we know that the immigration of ancient Arabs was a North-to-South pattern rather than the other way around is indeed well established.

Munir Al Qyasi
12-15-2020, 04:22 PM
Bom dia,

Me chamo Márcio Albino Passos, e minha mutação é (Y192191/FT228953)

Um caminho longo para nós que anseiamos entender toda essa dinâmica migratória e possível assimilação cultural, em breve estarei realizando o teste em meu pai pelo FTDNA.

O mais interessante é que o meu pai é o match mais próximo de Paulo Lucena que como ele também compartilha DNA judaíco, fiz o teste dele no Genera e subir para MH que confirma % de DNA ASKHENZI. Meu pai certamente é um bom elo para tentar unir as pontas soltas dessa trama..

Munir Al Qyasi
12-15-2020, 06:01 PM
The J-FGC6770 mutation is in my SNP games from Qatar, آل أحمد آل ثاني that make a total of 8, it appears to be Tamim, the other mutations in Qatar belong to حسن بن سبت بن جاسم بن محمد بن سبت (البن سبت) عيد (العريفي) الأصل من المناصير
ذرية علي بن عبدالغني الملا
and محمد بن حسن الحرمي ال حرم قطر,

Munir Al Qyasi
12-15-2020, 06:07 PM
Based on this information it can be said that the fact that I have this variety of matches from different tribes is due to marriage between these tribes.

Ruderico
12-16-2020, 11:11 AM
Can't believe I just saw this topic today, thanks for sharing it's really interesting learning of a subclade directly related with the Arab elite of Al-Andalus, it's quite uncommon. As usual Aga's contributions are a great addition too (here's the Governor he mentioned https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hudhayfa_ibn_al-Ahwas_al-Qaysi )

Shamash
12-18-2020, 08:58 AM
Y8537 is found in several different Arab tribes, among them we have the Bani Abs (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banu_Abs), Tamim (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banu_Tamim), Hawazin (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawazin), Judham (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banu_Judham) and Shararat (https://ar.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D8%A7%D9%84%D8%B4%D8%B1%D8%A7%D8%B1%D8%A7%D8%AA). The first three are Adnanite and the others are Qahtanite, obviously the lineage cannot be both at the same time considering its age, if we are to ascribe one origin I'd say the odds are in favour of an Adnanite origin (not assuming that the mythical genealogy is necessarily correct, only that the underlying tribal structure isn't entirely fanciful).

What all of these do have in common is that they figured prominently among the Arabian conquerors who made it to Iberia and settled there (the 8th governor of Al-Andalus was from Abs for example).

Completely agree with you: I personally have always been very critical towards tribal genealogy as it always tends (also) to be a sociological and historical construct (due to political alliances, marriages, matrilinear lineages, etc.) but we can't dismiss the underlying structure at all. We can see that in the subclade treated here (FGC11):

It encompasses Adnanite and Qahtanite lineages, sedentary as well as nomadic populations.

So that tribal memory of a common ancestor isn't just mere fantasy but a fact. A linguistic reflection of that is the proposed Central Semitic language group. FGC11 seems to be a lineage associated with that linguistic group as it can be found in a NW-Semitic context (the FGC11* aDNA sample from BA Sidon in the Levant) but for sure also in a OSA and Old Arabic speaking comminities (which still has to be proven by aDNA as we have no data at all from the Arabian Peninsula).

Don't want to deviate this thread but had to make this comment ;-)