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Itrane2000
11-28-2020, 08:54 PM
Hello everybody,

What is the sample that we should consider as ancient hebrew regarding the list below:



Levant_Yehud_IBA,0.087644,0.160454,-0.054682,-0.102391,-0.006155,-0.041555,-0.004935,-0.002769,0.026588,0.013668,0.019487,-0.008243,0.016204,0.030139,-0.007329,-0.007823,-0.026077,0.003421,0.006662,0.005753,-0.00861,0.013973,-0.006039,0.003374,-0.002515
Levant_Megiddo_IA,0.084229,0.150298,-0.060716,-0.091409,-0.014464,-0.044623,-0.00517,-0.005077,0.011658,0.006014,0.012179,-0.007343,0.019177,0.006193,-0.002307,0.002254,-0.026207,0.005828,0.00729,-0.005753,0.001622,-0.002226,-0.006162,-0.000843,-0.005987
Levant_Megiddo_IBA,0.078538,0.152329,-0.058077,-0.112405,0.001846,-0.044344,-0.01034,-0.009,0.030883,0.00164,0.012829,-0.013038,0.026016,-0.001651,-0.008686,0.013259,-0.005085,0.008868,-0.000126,0.001751,-0.000624,0.006059,-0.008134,0.000241,-0.004431
Levant_Megiddo_MLBA,0.0861261,0.1455592,-0.0646134,-0.1002072,-0.014596,-0.0394563,-0.0045434,-0.0097249,0.0131382,0.0089382,0.0103465,-0.0088707,0.0219027,0.0020119,-0.007316,0.005411,-0.0024898,0.004217,0.0036812,0.0073607,0.0047534,0 .0040982,-0.0049357,-0.0025361,-0.0014427
Levant_Megiddo_MLBA_o1,0.0978875,0.1355735,-0.0273415,-0.0318155,-0.026774,-0.006833,0.003995,-0.0068075,-0.0223955,-0.0057405,0.010068,-0.0073435,0.0170215,0.004335,-0.0035965,-0.004972,-0.0179275,0.0109585,0.008673,0.0058155,-0.0037435,0.003771,-0.003759,-0.003374,-0.002515
Levant_Megiddo_MLBA_o2,0.103579,0.109677,-0.032432,-0.001292,-0.023081,-0.009482,0.004935,-0.011769,-0.028633,-0.013121,0.006171,-0.007793,0.003568,-0.013074,0.019001,0.0118,-0.002086,0.006588,0.018855,0.003502,-0.006738,0.014467,0.001479,-0.000361,-0.001437

Jatt1
11-28-2020, 09:08 PM
Ancient Hebrew from where, Caucasus, Mount Ararat, Uruk, Jerusalem, Egypt, Mount Sinai?

Itrane2000
11-28-2020, 09:13 PM
Ancient Hebrew from where, Caucasus, Mount Ararat, Uruk, Jerusalem, Egypt, Mount Sinai?

Ancient Hebrew of the bible (kigdom of Israel and Juda).

Jatt1
11-28-2020, 09:22 PM
Ancient Hebrew of the bible (kigdom of Israel and Juda).

Bible or Torah?

Erikl86
11-28-2020, 09:28 PM
Hello everybody,

What is the sample that we should consider as ancient hebrew regarding the list below:



Levant_Yehud_IBA,0.087644,0.160454,-0.054682,-0.102391,-0.006155,-0.041555,-0.004935,-0.002769,0.026588,0.013668,0.019487,-0.008243,0.016204,0.030139,-0.007329,-0.007823,-0.026077,0.003421,0.006662,0.005753,-0.00861,0.013973,-0.006039,0.003374,-0.002515
Levant_Megiddo_IA,0.084229,0.150298,-0.060716,-0.091409,-0.014464,-0.044623,-0.00517,-0.005077,0.011658,0.006014,0.012179,-0.007343,0.019177,0.006193,-0.002307,0.002254,-0.026207,0.005828,0.00729,-0.005753,0.001622,-0.002226,-0.006162,-0.000843,-0.005987
Levant_Megiddo_IBA,0.078538,0.152329,-0.058077,-0.112405,0.001846,-0.044344,-0.01034,-0.009,0.030883,0.00164,0.012829,-0.013038,0.026016,-0.001651,-0.008686,0.013259,-0.005085,0.008868,-0.000126,0.001751,-0.000624,0.006059,-0.008134,0.000241,-0.004431
Levant_Megiddo_MLBA,0.0861261,0.1455592,-0.0646134,-0.1002072,-0.014596,-0.0394563,-0.0045434,-0.0097249,0.0131382,0.0089382,0.0103465,-0.0088707,0.0219027,0.0020119,-0.007316,0.005411,-0.0024898,0.004217,0.0036812,0.0073607,0.0047534,0 .0040982,-0.0049357,-0.0025361,-0.0014427
Levant_Megiddo_MLBA_o1,0.0978875,0.1355735,-0.0273415,-0.0318155,-0.026774,-0.006833,0.003995,-0.0068075,-0.0223955,-0.0057405,0.010068,-0.0073435,0.0170215,0.004335,-0.0035965,-0.004972,-0.0179275,0.0109585,0.008673,0.0058155,-0.0037435,0.003771,-0.003759,-0.003374,-0.002515
Levant_Megiddo_MLBA_o2,0.103579,0.109677,-0.032432,-0.001292,-0.023081,-0.009482,0.004935,-0.011769,-0.028633,-0.013121,0.006171,-0.007793,0.003568,-0.013074,0.019001,0.0118,-0.002086,0.006588,0.018855,0.003502,-0.006738,0.014467,0.001479,-0.000361,-0.001437



At which stage? Up until Persian and Hellenistic times when Jews seem to have began enforcing endogamy upon themselves on one hand but then seem to have experienced periods of proselytizing non-Jews on the other hand, they were pretty much indistinguishable from other Levantines.

After that, there is some debate. But lets say that up until the destruction of the first temple by the Babylonians (that would be 586 BCE, so early 6th century BCE) you can pick one of the IA Levantines and would probably not be off by a lot. Any of the IA II averages, except for outlier averages, should be roughly suitable for that to be completely honest.

Itrane2000
11-28-2020, 10:19 PM
At which stage? .

My question is clear.
There are 6 ancient samples that can be considered as ancient Hebrews in the database from Eurogene.
these 6 samples are not similar to each other, we can split them in 2 groups
1st group


Levant_Yehud_IBA
Levant_Megiddo_IA
Levant_Megiddo_IBA
Levant_Megiddo_MLBA


and the second group


Levant_Megiddo_MLBA_o1
Levant_Megiddo_MLBA_o2


Wich one of the 2 groups can be considered as ancient Hebrew.

here is the tree for those samples
41445
41444

Johnny ola
11-28-2020, 10:33 PM
What 'IBA' means in The above sample?

Itrane2000
11-28-2020, 10:36 PM
What 'IBA' means in The above sample?

Hi Johnny,
very good question
IBA means Intermediate Bronze Age from 2100 BC to 1500 BC

Johnny ola
11-28-2020, 11:26 PM
Hi Johnny,
very good question
IBA means Intermediate Bronze Age from 2100 BC to 1500 BC

Thank You. Personally as someone With high Levant admixture i am fiting well With The samples from Ashkellon and Megiddo.

Echo
11-28-2020, 11:43 PM
Levant Yehud IBA seems to work well for Judean/Southern Levantine ancestry.

Target: Tunisian_Jew:TunisianJew1421
Distance: 3.0466% / 0.03046574
41.2 Levant_Yehud_IBA
38.6 GRC_Mycenaean
20.2 Canary_Islands_Guanche

With Empuries (Classical Greeks with roots in Phocea) :

Target: Tunisian_Jew:TunisianJew1421
Distance: 3.3507% / 0.03350666
39.2 Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2
37.8 Levant_Yehud_IBA
23.0 Canary_Islands_Guanche

With Italian BA :
Target: Tunisian_Jew:TunisianJew1421
Distance: 3.6387% / 0.03638721
49.0 Levant_Yehud_IBA
30.4 ITA_Sicily_LBA
20.6 Canary_Islands_Guanche

hartaisarlag
11-28-2020, 11:49 PM
Levant Yehud IBA seems to work well for Judean/Southern Levantine ancestry.

Target: Tunisian_Jew:TunisianJew1421
Distance: 3.0466% / 0.03046574
41.2 Levant_Yehud_IBA
38.6 GRC_Mycenaean
20.2 Canary_Islands_Guanche

With Empuries (Classical Greeks with roots in Phocea) :

Target: Tunisian_Jew:TunisianJew1421
Distance: 3.3507% / 0.03350666
39.2 Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2
37.8 Levant_Yehud_IBA
23.0 Canary_Islands_Guanche

With Italian BA :
Target: Tunisian_Jew:TunisianJew1421
Distance: 3.6387% / 0.03638721
49.0 Levant_Yehud_IBA
30.4 ITA_Sicily_LBA
20.6 Canary_Islands_Guanche

We know that the genetic landscape of the southern Levant shifted multiple times between ca. 2300 BCE and the formation of the Jewish Diaspora—regardless of statistical fit, this is an implausible model.

Echo
11-29-2020, 12:11 AM
We know that the genetic landscape of the southern Levant shifted multiple times between ca. 2300 BCE and the formation of the Jewish Diaspora—regardless of statistical fit, this is an implausible model.

No it's not.

Samaritans

Target: Samaritan:168723
Distance: 3.9574% / 0.03957419
93.4 Levant_Yehud_IBA
6.6 Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2

passenger
11-29-2020, 12:17 AM
My question is clear.
There are 6 ancient samples that can be considered as ancient Hebrews in the database from Eurogene.
these 6 samples are not similar to each other, we can split them in 2 groups
1st group


Levant_Yehud_IBA
Levant_Megiddo_IA
Levant_Megiddo_IBA
Levant_Megiddo_MLBA


and the second group


Levant_Megiddo_MLBA_o1
Levant_Megiddo_MLBA_o2


Wich one of the 2 groups can be considered as ancient Hebrew.

here is the tree for those samples
41445

41444

Why are you limiting yourself to those samples though? There are quite a few more from the region besides those, including the IA II samples Erikl86 mentioned. Like he said, it depends what time period you're talking about. "Biblical" time is very broad. A lot likely happened to change the genetic profile of the average Israelite between the period from ca. 1200 BCE to ca. 500 BCE which, if I'm not mistaken, mostly corresponds to the historical Israel described in the Tanakh (written Torah), and obviously if we're talking about the period up to the destruction of the second temple that brings us up to 70 CE. So I would think most of the samples you mentioned would be too early for that time frame, and the IA II would be more appropriate, at least for Second Temple Judaism.

Johnny ola
11-29-2020, 12:19 AM
No it's not.

Samaritans

Target: Samaritan:168723
Distance: 3.9574% / 0.03957419
93.4 Levant_Yehud_IBA
6.6 Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2

Nice fit lol.Why someones to model with IBA and empuries?:doh:

Echo
11-29-2020, 12:27 AM
Nice fit lol.Why someones to model with IBA and empuries?:doh:

Wheres the problem? Its just to show Samaritans score little of Empuries type of ancestry.

Itrane2000
11-29-2020, 12:27 AM
Thank You. Personally as someone With high Levant admixture i am fiting well With The samples from Ashkellon and Megiddo.

I have heard that the Ashkelon were Phoenicians, but nobody never confirmed.
Megiddo might be early Jews (Hebrew), but it is the same, we need a confirmation from a study.

Itrane2000
11-29-2020, 12:28 AM
Levant Yehud IBA seems to work well for Judean/Southern Levantine ancestry.

Target: Tunisian_Jew:TunisianJew1421
Distance: 3.0466% / 0.03046574
41.2 Levant_Yehud_IBA
38.6 GRC_Mycenaean
20.2 Canary_Islands_Guanche

With Empuries (Classical Greeks with roots in Phocea) :

Target: Tunisian_Jew:TunisianJew1421
Distance: 3.3507% / 0.03350666
39.2 Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2
37.8 Levant_Yehud_IBA
23.0 Canary_Islands_Guanche

With Italian BA :
Target: Tunisian_Jew:TunisianJew1421
Distance: 3.6387% / 0.03638721
49.0 Levant_Yehud_IBA
30.4 ITA_Sicily_LBA
20.6 Canary_Islands_Guanche

thank you, moreover Yehud means Jew. So it may be the one I am looking for. Thank you.

Itrane2000
11-29-2020, 12:36 AM
Why are you limiting yourself to those samples though? There are quite a few more from the region besides those, including the IA II samples Erikl86 mentioned. Like he said, it depends what time period you're talking about. "Biblical" time is very broad. A lot likely happened to change the genetic profile of the average Israelite between the period from ca. 1200 BCE to ca. 500 BCE which, if I'm not mistaken, mostly corresponds to the historical Israel described in the Tanakh (written Torah), and obviously if we're talking about the period up to the destruction of the second temple that brings us up to 70 CE. So I would think most of the samples you mentioned would be too early for that time frame, and the IA II would be more appropriate, at least for Second Temple Judaism.

hello
here are all the ancient levant samples with IA2


Levant_Ashkelon_IA2,0.0789173,0.1411587,-0.0600877,-0.1049757,-0.0165157,-0.0365343,-0.0036033,-0.017461,0.0156117,0.011906,0.0060623,-0.007094,0.0225967,-0.003991,-0.010541,0.0114467,0.00339,-0.005574,-0.005447,0.0036683,0.0041593,0.0037097,-0.0047657,-0.007471,0.0026343
Levant_Beirut_IAII,0.089351,0.155376,-0.054494,-0.1002915,-0.0166185,-0.037511,-0.0069325,-0.004269,0.0197365,0.006925,0.009013,-0.0128885,0.0237115,0.0039225,-0.0147935,0.0129275,-0.0003255,0.002217,0.006662,0.0011255,-0.001248,0.005564,-0.00949,-0.002048,-0.001856


Should I use those ones ? indeed they are very close each other.

Johnny ola
11-29-2020, 12:44 AM
I have heard that the Ashkelon were Phoenicians, but nobody never confirmed.
Megiddo might be early Jews (Hebrew), but it is the same, we need a confirmation from a study.

Hmm,my honest opinion is that Levantines started to creating their own identity and becoming 'Jews/Hebrews','Phoenicians','Arameans' etc, during the IA period.I am not really taking serious the BA samples,simply becasue Jews received other influences and come in contact with different people during IAII,hellenistic and Roman ages.So,keep in mind that BA/IA Levant is not 100% representative for modern Jews.My Levantine ancestry is Samaritan like,witch means it arrived in (Anatolia-Pontus) prolly with a Jewish individual of prolly mesopotamian ' like' Jewish ancestry.Mesopotamian Jews are IMO better to understand old Jewish genetics,but even them.. have come in contact with other people.So, it is hard to find an accurate source when it comes to G25 for modern Jews/Israelites and people with similar admixture.Personally, when i am modeling my self,i like to use IA and hellenistic/Roman samples.I found them more accurate and closer to reality to estimate my Levant admixture.But if you ask me with witch exactly sample do i fit better is this sample:

Levant_Baqah_BA,0.0878146,0.1485719,-0.0613198,-0.1046686,-0.0111404,-0.038222,-0.0059575,-0.008215,0.0145723,0.0087018,0.0110425,-0.0114123,0.0239046,0.0015208,-0.0082111,0.0121054,-0.0002609,0.003712,0.003708,0.0065595,0.0049349,0. 0068132,-0.0056694,0.000506,-0.0026824

But how accurate it can be, a Bronze age sample from Haifa to be representative for my Levantine like genes?I really doubt my Levant DNA is 100% like this BA sample.

Johnny ola
11-29-2020, 12:50 AM
hello
here are all the ancient levant samples with IA2


Levant_Ashkelon_IA2,0.0789173,0.1411587,-0.0600877,-0.1049757,-0.0165157,-0.0365343,-0.0036033,-0.017461,0.0156117,0.011906,0.0060623,-0.007094,0.0225967,-0.003991,-0.010541,0.0114467,0.00339,-0.005574,-0.005447,0.0036683,0.0041593,0.0037097,-0.0047657,-0.007471,0.0026343
Levant_Beirut_IAII,0.089351,0.155376,-0.054494,-0.1002915,-0.0166185,-0.037511,-0.0069325,-0.004269,0.0197365,0.006925,0.009013,-0.0128885,0.0237115,0.0039225,-0.0147935,0.0129275,-0.0003255,0.002217,0.006662,0.0011255,-0.001248,0.005564,-0.00949,-0.002048,-0.001856


Should I use those ones ? indeed they are very close each other.

This is btw how G25 is modeling me:


Target: Ioannis_scaled
Distance: 2.8082% / 0.02808208
67.2 Greek_Trabzon
24.2 Samaritan
7.4 Georgian_Imer
1.2 Sardinian

Here how it models Greek Trabzon:keep in mind i have remove (easternblacksea refrences).

Target: Greek_Trabzon
Distance: 0.9222% / 0.00922177
44.4 Georgian_Imer
25.2 Greek_Central_Anatolia
17.6 Greek_Cappadocia
8.2 Iraqi_Jew
4.6 Samaritan

hartaisarlag
11-29-2020, 01:01 AM
thank you, moreover Yehud means Jew. So it may be the one I am looking for. Thank you.

Yehud is the name of the site in lowland central Israel. Yes, it was an area in which Judeans/Jews lived historically, but there is no unique connection (besides Jews being descended from Early-Intermediate Bronze Age Levantines in some proportion) between Jews and the people who lived at this site over a millennium before the earliest self-identified Israelites.

Jatt1
11-29-2020, 01:14 AM
Yehud is the name of the site in lowland central Israel. Yes, it was an area in which Judeans/Jews lived historically, but there is no unique connection (besides Jews being descended from Early-Intermediate Bronze Age Levantines in some proportion) between Jews and the people who lived at this site over a millennium before the earliest self-identified Israelites.

I thought that Jews had everything to do with the Prophet Noah and Mount Ararat and perhaps with Caucasus?

Echo
11-29-2020, 01:57 AM
Yehud is the name of the site in lowland central Israel. Yes, it was an area in which Judeans/Jews lived historically, but there is no unique connection (besides Jews being descended from Early-Intermediate Bronze Age Levantines in some proportion) between Jews and the people who lived at this site over a millennium before the earliest self-identified Israelites.

Levant Meggido IA, very good fit for ancient pop.

Target: Tunisian_Jew:TunisianJew1421
Distance: 2.9038% / 0.02903772
41.2 Levant_Megiddo_IA
37.2 Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2
21.6 Canary_Islands_Guanche

Target: Tunisian_Jew:TunisianJew1421
Distance: 2.8708% / 0.02870817
44.2 Levant_Megiddo_IA
33.8 GRC_Mycenaean
22.0 Canary_Islands_Guanche

Roman Era Lebanon.

Target: Tunisian_Jew:TunisianJew1421
Distance: 3.3616% / 0.03361617
43.2 Levant_Beirut_ERoman
37.4 GRC_Mycenaean
19.4 Canary_Islands_Guanche

Target: Tunisian_Jew:TunisianJew1421
Distance: 2.9437% / 0.02943715
39.0 Levant_LBN_Roman
37.2 Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2
23.8 Tunisian_Berber_Matmata

Pretty good fit.

Edit: and just for the sake of the N.italian theory with modern pop.

Target: Tunisian_Jew:TunisianJew1421
Distance: 2.8224% / 0.02822388
47.8 Levant_Megiddo_IA
32.0 Italian_Piedmont
20.2 Tunisian_Berber_Matmata

leorcooper19
11-29-2020, 02:10 AM
I thought that Jews had everything to do with the Prophet Noah and Mount Ararat and perhaps with Caucasus?

Not sure where you got that idea, but please refer to this post by Erikl86 for the correction: https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?14484-Could-Western-Jews-(Ash-and-Seph-)-descend-from-Aegeans-and-Levantine-admixture&p=717353&viewfull=1#post717353

Jatt1
11-29-2020, 02:29 AM
Not sure where you got that idea, but please refer to this post by Erikl86 for the correction: https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?14484-Could-Western-Jews-(Ash-and-Seph-)-descend-from-Aegeans-and-Levantine-admixture&p=717353&viewfull=1#post717353

That is strange, it starts around 536BC? I thought Jewish religion was around 4000 yrs old?

passenger
11-29-2020, 02:35 AM
hello
here are all the ancient levant samples with IA2


Levant_Ashkelon_IA2,0.0789173,0.1411587,-0.0600877,-0.1049757,-0.0165157,-0.0365343,-0.0036033,-0.017461,0.0156117,0.011906,0.0060623,-0.007094,0.0225967,-0.003991,-0.010541,0.0114467,0.00339,-0.005574,-0.005447,0.0036683,0.0041593,0.0037097,-0.0047657,-0.007471,0.0026343
Levant_Beirut_IAII,0.089351,0.155376,-0.054494,-0.1002915,-0.0166185,-0.037511,-0.0069325,-0.004269,0.0197365,0.006925,0.009013,-0.0128885,0.0237115,0.0039225,-0.0147935,0.0129275,-0.0003255,0.002217,0.006662,0.0011255,-0.001248,0.005564,-0.00949,-0.002048,-0.001856


Should I use those ones ? indeed they are very close each other.

Well, I'm really not the expert here, and I'm still not sure what your exact goal is. FWIW I've found Levant_Ashkelon_IA2 to work the best in modelling my mother and some other modern Western Jews, but of course that doesn't necessarily make it the closest equivalent to an "Ancient Hebrew" sample. And again, I'd think it would depend what time period you were trying to capture.

passenger
11-29-2020, 02:58 AM
That is strange, it starts around 536BC? I thought Jewish religion was around 4000 yrs old?

I believe the date you're referring to in the post mentioned by leorcooper19 is 586 BCE - a possible date for the beginning of the Babylonian captivity, ending in 538 BCE. Second Temple Judaism began after the end of the Babylonian captivity. First Temple Judaism goes back four hundred years before that, with the history of the ancient Israelites predating the temple by a few hundred years. Of course there are biblical references that date back even earlier, but then we're getting into some pretty hazy territory with questionable relevance to any discussion of genetics.

Jatt1
11-29-2020, 03:49 AM
I believe the date you're referring to in the post mentioned by leorcooper19 is 586 BCE - a possible date for the beginning of the Babylonian captivity, ending in 538 BCE. Second Temple Judaism began after the end of the Babylonian captivity. First Temple Judaism goes back four hundred years before that, with the history of the ancient Israelites predating the temple by a few hundred years. Of course there are biblical references that date back even earlier, but then we're getting into some pretty hazy territory with questionable relevance to any discussion of genetics.

Don't know the facts but I do have special interest in it especially in haplo J1, My brother had WGS done our paternal line is J1. Sorry it is bit off the main topic.

leorcooper19
11-29-2020, 04:09 AM
That is strange, it starts around 536BC? I thought Jewish religion was around 4000 yrs old?

Honestly, the Jewish History Wikipedia page sums it up pretty well: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_history

leorcooper19
11-29-2020, 04:15 AM
Don't know the facts but I do have special interest in it especially in haplo J1, My brother had WGS done our paternal line is J1. Sorry it is bit off the main topic.

Is there a suspected Jewish or Hebrew connection with your Y and that's the link here?

Jatt1
11-29-2020, 04:41 AM
Is there a suspected Jewish or Hebrew connection with your Y and that's the link here?

My community goes by Khabra surname, it might have something to do with Hebrew, Kabarda(Caucasus Tribe) or with Khyber Pass. Also my community carry some steppe DNA, can't really pinpoint the origins though. Here is his kit https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-ZS3698/

hartaisarlag
11-29-2020, 05:22 AM
My community goes by Khabra surname, it might have something to do with Hebrew, Kabarda(Caucasus Tribe) or with Khyber Pass. Also my community carry some steppe DNA, can't really pinpoint the origins though. Here is his kit https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-ZS3698/

Not a Jewish branch of J1.

Jatt1
11-29-2020, 06:04 AM
Not a Jewish branch of J1.

Johnny ola pointed that out too, one of his friend belongs to the same subclade.

Johnny ola
11-29-2020, 09:45 AM
Johnny ola pointed that out too, one of his friend belongs to the same subclade.

Yes,this subclade is not of Jewish roots.

Agamemnon
11-29-2020, 04:00 PM
Ancient Hebrew of the bible (kigdom of Israel and Juda).

The best proxy for IA II Israelites based on archeological context would be Megiddo_IA and possibly Abel_IA as well. Keep in mind that in both cases we're dealing with a single individual. Megiddo_IA in particular is quite likely to be Israelite, this sample is tied to Stratum VI after which the city was burned down (this individual apparently perished at that moment), here's a map of Megiddo VIA:


https://i.imgur.com/OLU6hzr.png

Finkelstein insists that Megiddo VI was destroyed by Shoshenq in the framework of his "Low Chronology" after which the city (Stratum V) became Israelite, he therefore attributes Stratum VI to an elusive "New Canaan". However the reality is much more complex and not only because his "Low Chronology" is spurious (the city almost certainly wasn't destroyed by Shoshenq). While the town wasn't Israelite in the political sense yet it was ethnically-mixed, and part of its population was Israelite, proof of this comes in the form of collared-rim jars, four-room houses (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_room_house) and other elements of the austere material culture tied to the IA I Israelite sites in the highlands. These are essentially found in Area CC on the map, which contrasts greatly with other parts of the city such as Area AA where there are no such finds and the architecture is an embellishment of the Canaanite court house.

So the odds are quite high that Megiddo_IA is either Israelite or something closely related to the IA I Israelites. And in turn, the genetic profile of the IA II Israelites is unlikely to have been quite different, on the contrary there is a great deal of material continuity between the IA I highland settlements and the IA II Israelite sites until the Babylonian conquest of Judah (the only exception being the depopulation and abandonment of the rural sites and the urbanisation which followed the IA I-II transition).

Dewsloth
11-29-2020, 04:16 PM
Hmm,my honest opinion is that Levantines started to creating their own identity and becoming 'Jews/Hebrews','Phoenicians','Arameans' etc, during the IA period.I am not really taking serious the BA samples,simply becasue Jews received other influences and come in contact with different people during IAII,hellenistic and Roman ages.So,keep in mind that BA/IA Levant is not 100% representative for modern Jews.My Levantine ancestry is Samaritan like,witch means it arrived in (Anatolia-Pontus) prolly with a Jewish individual of prolly mesopotamian ' like' Jewish ancestry.Mesopotamian Jews are IMO better to understand old Jewish genetics,but even them.. have come in contact with other people.So, it is hard to find an accurate source when it comes to G25 for modern Jews/Israelites and people with similar admixture.Personally, when i am modeling my self,i like to use IA and hellenistic/Roman samples.I found them more accurate and closer to reality to estimate my Levant admixture.But if you ask me with witch exactly sample do i fit better is this sample:

Levant_Baqah_BA,0.0878146,0.1485719,-0.0613198,-0.1046686,-0.0111404,-0.038222,-0.0059575,-0.008215,0.0145723,0.0087018,0.0110425,-0.0114123,0.0239046,0.0015208,-0.0082111,0.0121054,-0.0002609,0.003712,0.003708,0.0065595,0.0049349,0. 0068132,-0.0056694,0.000506,-0.0026824

But how accurate it can be, a Bronze age sample from Haifa to be representative for my Levantine like genes?I really doubt my Levant DNA is 100% like this BA sample.

Lebanese Christian siblings (my mom and her brother). Both of their parents (and one grandparent b. 1897) were born in the US before WWI. Here we are just using ancient Levant samples:

Target: DewslothMom
Distance: 1.1293% / 0.01129316
26.6 Levant_Beirut_IAIII
19.0 Levant_Megiddo_MLBA_o2
18.6 Levant_Ashkelon_IA1
16.0 Levant_Ashkelon_IA2
10.2 Levant_Ashkelon_LBA
9.6 Levant_Abel_IA


Target: Uncle
Distance: 1.1121% / 0.01112085
31.0 Levant_Beirut_IAIII
19.2 Levant_Ashkelon_LBA
16.8 Levant_Megiddo_MLBA_o2
16.4 Levant_Megiddo_IA
10.4 Levant_Ashkelon_IA1
6.2 Levant_Abel_IA

Distance to: DewslothMom
0.01524029 Levant_Beirut_IAIII
0.02043282 Levant_Abel_IA
0.02118744 Levant_Sidon_MBA
0.02223355 Levant_Ashkelon_LBA
0.02347347 Levant_Megiddo_MLBA
0.02410868 Levant_Ashkelon_IA2
0.02487450 Levant_Baqah_BA
0.02575464 Levant_Hazor_MLBA
0.02605331 Levant_Beirut_IAII
0.02756381 Levant_Ashkelon_IA1
0.03114996 Levant_Shadud_MLBA
0.03149206 Levant_Megiddo_IBA
0.03300000 Levant_Megiddo_IA
0.03546111 Levant_Megiddo_MLBA_o1
0.03773864 Levant_Beirut_IAIII_Egyptian
0.04265888 Levant_Megiddo_MLBA_o2
0.04331720 Levant_Yehud_IBA
0.04348130 Levant_JOR_EBA
0.04851768 Levant_ISR_C
0.05979174 Levant_PPNB
0.06073179 Levant_PPNC
0.09596611 Levant_Natufian


Distance to: Uncle
0.01547801 Levant_Beirut_IAIII
0.01966682 Levant_Ashkelon_LBA
0.02006091 Levant_Abel_IA
0.02088903 Levant_Sidon_MBA
0.02244397 Levant_Megiddo_MLBA
0.02362391 Levant_Hazor_MLBA
0.02386667 Levant_Baqah_BA
0.02440942 Levant_Megiddo_IA
0.02450275 Levant_Beirut_IAII
0.02674750 Levant_Ashkelon_IA2
0.03014216 Levant_Megiddo_IBA
0.03014521 Levant_Ashkelon_IA1
0.03127491 Levant_Shadud_MLBA
0.03318494 Levant_Megiddo_MLBA_o1
0.03617865 Levant_Beirut_IAIII_Egyptian
0.03998675 Levant_Yehud_IBA
0.04310012 Levant_Megiddo_MLBA_o2
0.04360861 Levant_JOR_EBA
0.04769687 Levant_ISR_C
0.06151471 Levant_PPNB
0.06231781 Levant_PPNC
0.09567855 Levant_Natufian

Dewsloth
11-29-2020, 04:33 PM
However, if I open up the "Northern Levant" to include Ebla and Alalakh:

Target: DewslothMom
Distance: 1.1102% / 0.01110207
26.2 SYR_Ebla_EMBA
18.4 Levant_Ashkelon_IA1
17.6 Levant_Megiddo_MLBA_o2
14.0 Levant_Ashkelon_IA2
11.4 Levant_Abel_IA
8.2 Levant_Ashkelon_LBA
4.2 Levant_Beirut_IAIII


Target: Uncle
Distance: 1.0794% / 0.01079445
32.4 TUR_Alalakh_MLBA
16.6 Levant_Beirut_IAIII
16.4 Levant_Megiddo_IA
14.6 Levant_Megiddo_MLBA_o2
8.4 Levant_Ashkelon_LBA
6.4 Levant_Abel_IA
5.2 Levant_Ashkelon_IA1


Distance to: DewslothMom
0.01498541 SYR_Ebla_EMBA
0.01512509 TUR_Alalakh_MLBA
0.01524029 Levant_Beirut_IAIII


Distance to: Uncle
0.01413490 TUR_Alalakh_MLBA
0.01547801 Levant_Beirut_IAIII
0.01583807 SYR_Ebla_EMBA
0.01966682 Levant_Ashkelon_LBA
0.02006091 Levant_Abel_IA

Erikl86
11-29-2020, 05:11 PM
Levant Yehud IBA seems to work well for Judean/Southern Levantine ancestry.

Target: Tunisian_Jew:TunisianJew1421
Distance: 3.0466% / 0.03046574
41.2 Levant_Yehud_IBA
38.6 GRC_Mycenaean
20.2 Canary_Islands_Guanche

With Empuries (Classical Greeks with roots in Phocea) :

Target: Tunisian_Jew:TunisianJew1421
Distance: 3.3507% / 0.03350666
39.2 Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2
37.8 Levant_Yehud_IBA
23.0 Canary_Islands_Guanche

With Italian BA :
Target: Tunisian_Jew:TunisianJew1421
Distance: 3.6387% / 0.03638721
49.0 Levant_Yehud_IBA
30.4 ITA_Sicily_LBA
20.6 Canary_Islands_Guanche

These are very bad fits, of course.

But even those poor fits, just show how crucial a Levantine ancestry is to model Western Jews.

In any case, here's when you actually use IA samples:

Target: Tunisian_Jew
Distance: 0.9023% / 0.00902257
32.4 Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2
30.0 Levant_Beirut_IAII
23.8 Canary_Islands_Guanche
13.8 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_IA

Or for Italian Jew, if I'll add some pre-Hellenic Latin ancestry (from "native" Italian admixture):


Target: Italian_Jew
Distance: 0.9972% / 0.00997167
28.0 Levant_Beirut_IAII
23.6 ITA_Ardea_Latini_IA
22.2 Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2
15.4 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_IA
10.8 Canary_Islands_Guanche


And Romaniote Jews which seem to have admixed with some Italian Jews:

Target: Romaniote_Jew
Distance: 0.9960% / 0.00995956
30.0 Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2
28.6 Levant_Beirut_IAII
18.2 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_IA
13.0 ITA_Rome_Latini_IA
10.2 Canary_Islands_Guanche

Echo
11-29-2020, 05:28 PM
These are very bad fits, of course.

But even those poor fits, just show how crucial a Levantine ancestry is to model Western Jews.

In any case, here's when you actually use IA samples:

Target: Tunisian_Jew
Distance: 0.9023% / 0.00902257
32.4 Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2
30.0 Levant_Beirut_IAII
23.8 Canary_Islands_Guanche
13.8 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_IA

Or for Italian Jew, if I'll add some pre-Hellenic Latin ancestry (from "native" Italian admixture):


Target: Italian_Jew
Distance: 0.9972% / 0.00997167
28.0 Levant_Beirut_IAII
23.6 ITA_Ardea_Latini_IA
22.2 Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2
15.4 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_IA
10.8 Canary_Islands_Guanche


And Romaniote Jews which seem to have admixed with some Italian Jews:

Target: Romaniote_Jew
Distance: 0.9960% / 0.00995956
30.0 Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2
28.6 Levant_Beirut_IAII
18.2 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_IA
13.0 ITA_Rome_Latini_IA
10.2 Canary_Islands_Guanche

It's very interesting but it just largely lowered down the amount of Levantine IA ancestry in my models.

Where does this excess of Iranian Firuz IA comes from?

Sometimes I am not sure the lowest fit is necessarily the best. Modeling Lithuanians with simple basic EEF, Yamnaya_RUS_Samara and HGs gives very bad fit but is very much the truth. Sometimes it just needs closer genealogical proxies maybe.

Johnny ola
11-29-2020, 05:49 PM
However, if I open up the "Northern Levant" to include Ebla and Alalakh:

Target: DewslothMom
Distance: 1.1102% / 0.01110207
26.2 SYR_Ebla_EMBA
18.4 Levant_Ashkelon_IA1
17.6 Levant_Megiddo_MLBA_o2
14.0 Levant_Ashkelon_IA2
11.4 Levant_Abel_IA
8.2 Levant_Ashkelon_LBA
4.2 Levant_Beirut_IAIII


Target: Uncle
Distance: 1.0794% / 0.01079445
32.4 TUR_Alalakh_MLBA
16.6 Levant_Beirut_IAIII
16.4 Levant_Megiddo_IA
14.6 Levant_Megiddo_MLBA_o2
8.4 Levant_Ashkelon_LBA
6.4 Levant_Abel_IA
5.2 Levant_Ashkelon_IA1


Distance to: DewslothMom
0.01498541 SYR_Ebla_EMBA
0.01512509 TUR_Alalakh_MLBA
0.01524029 Levant_Beirut_IAIII


Distance to: Uncle
0.01413490 TUR_Alalakh_MLBA
0.01547801 Levant_Beirut_IAIII
0.01583807 SYR_Ebla_EMBA
0.01966682 Levant_Ashkelon_LBA
0.02006091 Levant_Abel_IA




Nice.Personally i am modeling my self better with the samples from Megiddo and Ashkelon.I am not sure if they have Israelite origins.. but they cover my Levant like admixture better compared to other samples.



Target: Ioannis_scaled
Distance: 2.5024% / 0.02502388
35.4 RUS_Maykop_Novosvobodnaya
26.6 Levant_Megiddo_IA
23.8 TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA
14.2 Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2


Target: Ioannis_scaled
Distance: 2.8579% / 0.02857934
36.8 TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA
29.8 RUS_Maykop_Novosvobodnaya
14.6 Levant_Ashkelon_IA2
14.2 Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2
4.6 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_IA

Erikl86
11-29-2020, 06:58 PM
It's very interesting but it just largely lowered down the amount of Levantine IA ancestry in my models.

Where does this excess of Iranian Firuz IA comes from?

Sometimes I am not sure the lowest fit is necessarily the best. Modeling Lithuanians with simple basic EEF, Yamnaya_RUS_Samara and HGs gives very bad fit but is very much the truth. Sometimes it just needs closer genealogical proxies maybe.

The IA West Iranian-like ancestry is not perfect but is necessary to proxy Mesopotamian admixture which would have entered all Western Jews from two main sources:

1. When Jews returned from Babylon in the late 6th century onward, as well as continued connection with the community there during the Hasmonean Judean kingdom.
2. More crucial IMO would be the spread of Babylonian Talmud and tradition during the Geonic period among the Western Jewish communities, carried out by Babylonian/Iraqi Jews. This has actual historical documentation.

Helves
11-29-2020, 07:22 PM
The IA West Iranian-like ancestry is not perfect but is necessary to proxy Mesopotamian admixture which would have entered all Western Jews from two main sources:

1. When Jews returned from Babylon in the late 6th century onward, as well as continued connection with the community there during the Hasmonean Judean kingdom.
2. More crucial IMO would be the spread of Babylonian Talmud and tradition during the Geonic period among the Western Jewish communities, carried out by Babylonian/Iraqi Jews. This has actual historical documentation.

If there is Mesopotamian admixture in Western Jews, mediated by Babylonian Jews then I think it's better to use the Seh_Gabi_C average instead. Hajji Firuz has too much Steppe and even Iraqi Jews don't seem to score much if any of it, they instead prefer Seh Gabi.

Jatt1
11-29-2020, 07:23 PM
The IA West Iranian-like ancestry is not perfect but is necessary to proxy Mesopotamian admixture which would have entered all Western Jews from two main sources:

1. When Jews returned from Babylon in the late 6th century onward, as well as continued connection with the community there during the Hasmonean Judean kingdom.
2. More crucial IMO would be the spread of Babylonian Talmud and tradition during the Geonic period among the Western Jewish communities, carried out by Babylonian/Iraqi Jews. This has actual historical documentation.

Wasn't Abraham in Uruk and later took his people to Levant and it be much earlier than what you mentioned above?

maroco
11-29-2020, 07:39 PM
Distance: 2.0120% / 0.02012000
69.5 Canary_Islands_Guanche
21.7 Levant_Megiddo_IBA
8.8 West_African_(simulated)

I decided to model with 3 samples and use Megiddo. To be perfectly honest I see no difference I still get the same amount of Levantine

Erikl86
11-29-2020, 07:59 PM
Wasn't Abraham in Uruk and later took his people to Levant and it be much earlier than what you mentioned above?

Considering Abraham is somewhat of a mythical figure and there is zero archeological or genetic evidence for his existence as recounted in the Torah or Bible (or Quran) - I can't debate this. It's like you'll debate Helves about the mythical genetic connection between ܣܪܓܘܢ ܐܟܕܝܐ and ܣܪܓܘܢ ܬܪܝܢܐ - with the twist that there is actually archeological evidence for the existence of this specific mythical figure, while no such thing in the case of Abraham.

Whether or not there was a migration from N. Mesopotamia (or Caucasus) to the Levant during the BA and later periods which might be the source of the ethnogenesis story for the indigenous Levantine Israelites - that is almost certainly the case, and had been shown by several recent papers.

Erikl86
11-29-2020, 08:32 PM
If there is Mesopotamian admixture in Western Jews, mediated by Babylonian Jews then I think it's better to use the Seh_Gabi_C average instead. Hajji Firuz has too much Steppe and even Iraqi Jews don't seem to score much if any of it, they instead prefer Seh Gabi.

I've tried Seh Gabi and it yielded worse results (though still not bad of course) for some reason, my belief because it's from the Chalcolithic and there is some ancestry missing there:

Target: Tunisian_Jew
Distance: 1.1895% / 0.01189526
35.8 Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2
28.6 Levant_Beirut_IAII
24.0 Canary_Islands_Guanche
11.6 IRN_Seh_Gabi_C

Helves
11-29-2020, 09:37 PM
I've tried Seh Gabi and it yielded worse results (though still not bad of course) for some reason, my belief because it's from the Chalcolithic and there is some ancestry missing there:

Target: Tunisian_Jew
Distance: 1.1895% / 0.01189526
35.8 Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2
28.6 Levant_Beirut_IAII
24.0 Canary_Islands_Guanche
11.6 IRN_Seh_Gabi_C

Yep agreed it's not ideal, too old to be. I think though that your other sources aren't Steppe-rich enough so it prefers Hasanlu/Hajji Firuz_IA. I think the Aegan/South Italian admixture in Western Jews was more northern than the Empuries samples, probably like the Imperial Romans.


Considering Abraham is somewhat of a mythical figure and there is zero archeological or genetic evidence for his existence as recounted in the Torah or Bible (or Quran) - I can't debate this. It's like you'll debate Helves about the mythical genetic connection between ܣܪܓܘܢ ܐܟܕܝܐ and ܣܪܓܘܢ ܬܪܝܢܐ - with the twist that there is actually archeological evidence for the existence of this specific mythical figure, while no such thing in the case of Abraham.

I see what you did there. :)

TheIncredibleHulk
11-30-2020, 12:42 PM
These are very bad fits, of course.

But even those poor fits, just show how crucial a Levantine ancestry is to model Western Jews.

In any case, here's when you actually use IA samples:

Target: Tunisian_Jew
Distance: 0.9023% / 0.00902257
32.4 Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2
30.0 Levant_Beirut_IAII
23.8 Canary_Islands_Guanche
13.8 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_IA

Or for Italian Jew, if I'll add some pre-Hellenic Latin ancestry (from "native" Italian admixture):


Target: Italian_Jew
Distance: 0.9972% / 0.00997167
28.0 Levant_Beirut_IAII
23.6 ITA_Ardea_Latini_IA
22.2 Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2
15.4 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_IA
10.8 Canary_Islands_Guanche


And Romaniote Jews which seem to have admixed with some Italian Jews:

Target: Romaniote_Jew
Distance: 0.9960% / 0.00995956
30.0 Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2
28.6 Levant_Beirut_IAII
18.2 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_IA
13.0 ITA_Rome_Latini_IA
10.2 Canary_Islands_Guanche

My results which I added AE's here to represent the Palestinian Muslim Southern shiftiness:
Distance: 1.4481% / 0.01448143
Target: Palestinian
36.5 Levant_Beirut_IAII
28.2 Levant_Beirut_IAIII_Egyptian
22.9 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_IA
9.2 Canary_Islands_Guanche
3.2 TZA_Zanzibar_1300BP

Distance: 1.5982% / 0.01598213
Target: TimA_scaled
34.9 Levant_Beirut_IAII
29.5 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_IA
20.0 Levant_Beirut_IAIII_Egyptian
14.0 Canary_Islands_Guanche
1.6 TZA_Zanzibar_1300BP

Distance: 2.3917% / 0.02391655
Target: Moody_scaled
38.1 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_IA
32.1 Levant_Beirut_IAII
15.3 Levant_Beirut_IAIII_Egyptian
14.1 Canary_Islands_Guanche
0.4 TZA_Zanzibar_1300BP

As you can see, my Pali friend from the WB and the average Palestinian Muslim get pretty good fits here..except for me which does tells me that I need something to make my fit distance better. Here's my and my friend's coordinates for you to use to calculate our best fit ancestries.

Mine:

PC1,PC2,PC3,PC4,PC5,PC6,PC7,PC8,PC9,PC10,PC11,PC12 ,PC13,PC14,PC15,PC16,PC17,PC18,PC19,PC20,PC21,PC22 ,PC23,PC24,PC25
Moody_scaled,0.067156,0.132019,-0.05242,-0.068153,-0.011694,-0.023427,-0.00094,-0.008538,0.004295,0.004738,-0.000974,-0.005845,0.013528,-0.003028,0.00095,0.002519,-0.002347,-0.004054,-0.003645,-0.002001,0.004866,-0.000124,0.004807,0.00012,-0.001197

PC1,PC2,PC3,PC4,PC5,PC6,PC7,PC8,PC9,PC10,PC11,PC12 ,PC13,PC14,PC15,PC16,PC17,PC18,PC19,PC20,PC21,PC22 ,PC23,PC24,PC25
Moody,0.0059,0.013,-0.0139,-0.0211,-0.0038,-0.0084,-0.0004,-0.0037,0.0021,0.0026,-0.0006,-0.0039,0.0091,-0.0022,0.0007,0.0019,-0.0018,-0.0032,-0.0029,-0.0016,0.0039,-0.0001,0.0039,0.0001,-0.001

My friend:

,PC1,PC2,PC3,PC4,PC5,PC6,PC7,PC8,PC9,PC10,PC11,PC1 2,PC13,PC14,PC15,PC16,PC17,PC18,PC19,PC20,PC21,PC2 2,PC23,PC24,PC25
TimA_scaled,0.053497,0.135065,-0.048649,-0.07429,-0.009848,-0.027331,-0.009635,-0.004384,0.009613,0.002916,0.006333,-0.003747,0.017096,-0.000275,-0.003936,0.005967,-0.001565,0,0.003017,0.01063,0.003993,-0.006183,0.000246,-0.001205,0.000958

,PC1,PC2,PC3,PC4,PC5,PC6,PC7,PC8,PC9,PC10,PC11,PC1 2,PC13,PC14,PC15,PC16,PC17,PC18,PC19,PC20,PC21,PC2 2,PC23,PC24,PC25
TimA,0.0047,0.0133,-0.0129,-0.023,-0.0032,-0.0098,-0.0041,-0.0019,0.0047,0.0016,0.0039,-0.0025,0.0115,-0.0002,-0.0029,0.0045,-0.0012,0,0.0024,0.0085,0.0032,-0.005,0.0002,-0.001,0.0008

TheIncredibleHulk
11-30-2020, 12:52 PM
Nice.Personally i am modeling my self better with the samples from Megiddo and Ashkelon.I am not sure if they have Israelite origins.. but they cover my Levant like admixture better compared to other samples.



Target: Ioannis_scaled
Distance: 2.5024% / 0.02502388
35.4 RUS_Maykop_Novosvobodnaya
26.6 Levant_Megiddo_IA
23.8 TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA
14.2 Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2


Target: Ioannis_scaled
Distance: 2.8579% / 0.02857934
36.8 TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA
29.8 RUS_Maykop_Novosvobodnaya
14.6 Levant_Ashkelon_IA2
14.2 Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2
4.6 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_IA

Mine's better when using the Canaanites of Sidon since..well, my family came from the coastal lines of Acre, Israel/Palestine. I'm less Southern shifted genetically than say my Pali friend and the average Palestinian Muslim where they need ancient Egyptians in their models. While I do as well, but not as much as them, you know? I cluster the closest to the Canaanites of Lebanon and the Amorites of Turkey than say to the Israelites of say Megiddo.

Distance to: Moody_scaled
0.03753682 Levant_Beirut_Hellenistic
0.03799076 Levant_LBN_MA
0.03921826 Levant_LBN_Roman
0.04295301 Levant_Beirut_ERoman
0.04443454 Levant_Beirut_IAIII
0.04771527 Levant_Sidon_MBA
0.04970536 SYR_Ebla_EMBA
0.04981863 TUR_Alalakh_MLBA
0.05088892 Levant_Abel_IA
0.05113403 Levant_Ashkelon_LBA
0.05189904 Levant_Ashkelon_IA2
0.05228866 Levant_Megiddo_MLBA
0.05514100 Levant_Megiddo_IA
0.05582470 Levant_Hazor_MLBA
0.05754144 Levant_Baqah_BA
0.06032806 Levant_LBN_MA_o3
0.06075831 Levant_Beirut_IAII
0.06123011 TUR_Arslantepe_LC
0.06124604 Levant_Shadud_MLBA
0.06169946 ITA_Rome_Imperial
0.06192875 IND_Roopkund_B_o
0.06287078 TUR_Arslantepe_EBA
0.06321459 TUR_Ovaoren_EBA
0.06454854 England_Roman_Near_Eastern_o
0.06546938 AZE_Caucasus_lowlands_LN

In contrast to the average Palestinian Muslim that sits in between the Northern Levant and AE's:

Distance to: Palestinian
0.04690910 Levant_Beirut_Hellenistic
0.04710676 England_Roman_Near_Eastern_o
0.04917416 Levant_Sidon_MBA
0.04927879 Levant_LBN_MA
0.04937293 Levant_Beirut_IAIII_Egyptian
0.05036686 Levant_Beirut_ERoman
0.05147650 Levant_LBN_Roman
0.05324964 Levant_Ashkelon_IA2
0.05456249 Levant_Beirut_IAIII
0.05506877 Levant_Abel_IA
0.05522839 Levant_Megiddo_MLBA
0.05726192 Levant_Hazor_MLBA
0.05764686 Levant_Baqah_BA
0.05899895 Levant_Megiddo_IA
0.05916174 Levant_Beirut_IAII
0.05918128 Levant_Shadud_MLBA
0.05976529 Levant_Ashkelon_LBA
0.06148998 Levant_Megiddo_IBA
0.06184578 SYR_Ebla_EMBA
0.06219038 EGY_Late_Period
0.06511029 TUR_Alalakh_MLBA
0.06796378 Levant_JOR_EBA
0.07570574 EGY_Hellenistic
0.07717341 Levant_Yehud_IBA
0.07813061 Levant_LBN_MA_o3

Which also contrasts with Palestinian Christians who are pretty similar to the Lebanese Christians and other Levantine genetic isolated groups:

Distance to: Palestinian_Beit_Sahour
0.02032093 Levant_Beirut_ERoman
0.02065094 Levant_LBN_Roman
0.02564683 Levant_LBN_MA
0.02777846 Levant_Beirut_IAIII
0.03034335 Levant_Abel_IA
0.03268588 TUR_Alalakh_MLBA
0.03346457 SYR_Ebla_EMBA
0.03386762 Levant_Sidon_MBA
0.03644851 Levant_Ashkelon_LBA
0.03741919 Levant_Megiddo_MLBA
0.03753538 Levant_Baqah_BA
0.03790168 Levant_Beirut_IAII
0.03877085 Levant_Ashkelon_IA2
0.04068162 Levant_Hazor_MLBA
0.04437720 TUR_Arslantepe_LC
0.04560430 Levant_Shadud_MLBA
0.04605295 Levant_Beirut_Hellenistic
0.04657810 Levant_LBN_MA_o3
0.04742034 TUR_Arslantepe_EBA
0.04760420 TUR_Ovaoren_EBA
0.05179545 Levant_Megiddo_IA
0.05467909 TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA
0.05500849 Levant_Megiddo_IBA
0.05636294 IND_Roopkund_B_o
0.05738275 Levant_Ashkelon_IA1

So, all in all, Palestinian Muslims are as Levantine as western Jewish peoples(Ashkenazi and Sephardim), but not as Levantine as say the Samaritans, Christians and the Druze due to foreign admixtures with non-Levantine groups. With western Jews, they're admixed with Europeans(esp. Balkan/Greek women) while us are admixed with our southern neighbors; Arabia and Egypt.

TheIncredibleHulk
11-30-2020, 01:14 PM
At which stage? Up until Persian and Hellenistic times when Jews seem to have began enforcing endogamy upon themselves on one hand but then seem to have experienced periods of proselytizing non-Jews on the other hand, they were pretty much indistinguishable from other Levantines.

After that, there is some debate. But lets say that up until the destruction of the first temple by the Babylonians (that would be 586 BCE, so early 6th century BCE) you can pick one of the IA Levantines and would probably not be off by a lot. Any of the IA II averages, except for outlier averages, should be roughly suitable for that to be completely honest.

We shouldn't forget about the Iduemeans of the Negev desert as well since they came basically from a mixture of two Semitic ethnic groups for the most part; Edomites and the Arabs(Qedarites and others) which also includes other ethnic groups like the Judahites and the Phoenicians according to Yigal Levin:

For several hundred years, from the late Iron Age to the end of the 2nd century BCE, the southern neighbor of Judea was “Idumea”, populated by descendants of Edomites, together with Qedarite and other Arabs and a mix of additional ethnicities. This paper examines the known data on the identity, especially religious identity, of these Idumeans, using a wide range of written sources and archaeological data. Within the Bible, “Edom” is presented as Israel’s twin and its harshest enemy, but there are hints that the Edomites worshipped the God of Israel. While the origins of the “Edomite deity” Qaus remain obscure, as does the process of their migration into southern Judah, the many inscriptions from the Persian period show that Qaus became the most widely worshiped deity in the area, even if other gods, including Yahweh, were also recognized. The Hellenistic period brought heightened Greek and Phoenician influence, but also the stabilization of “Idumea” as an administrative/ethnic unit. Some of the practices of this period, such as male circumcision, show an affinity to the Judaism of the time. This paper also discusses the outcome of the Hasmonean conquest of Idumea and the incorporation of its inhabitants into the Jewish nation.

The PDF file is free, and it's in the first link in google search:
https://www.google.com/search?q=iduemeans%20ethnogenesis

Johnny ola
11-30-2020, 01:30 PM
Mine's better when using the Canaanites of Sidon since..well, my family came from the coastal lines of Acre, Israel/Palestine. I'm less Southern shifted genetically than say my Pali friend and the average Palestinian Muslim where they need ancient Egyptians in their models. While I do as well, but not as much as them, you know? I cluster the closest to the Canaanites of Lebanon and the Amorites of Turkey than say to the Israelites of say Megiddo.

Distance to: Moody_scaled
0.03753682 Levant_Beirut_Hellenistic
0.03799076 Levant_LBN_MA
0.03921826 Levant_LBN_Roman
0.04295301 Levant_Beirut_ERoman
0.04443454 Levant_Beirut_IAIII
0.04771527 Levant_Sidon_MBA
0.04970536 SYR_Ebla_EMBA
0.04981863 TUR_Alalakh_MLBA
0.05088892 Levant_Abel_IA
0.05113403 Levant_Ashkelon_LBA
0.05189904 Levant_Ashkelon_IA2
0.05228866 Levant_Megiddo_MLBA
0.05514100 Levant_Megiddo_IA
0.05582470 Levant_Hazor_MLBA
0.05754144 Levant_Baqah_BA
0.06032806 Levant_LBN_MA_o3
0.06075831 Levant_Beirut_IAII
0.06123011 TUR_Arslantepe_LC
0.06124604 Levant_Shadud_MLBA
0.06169946 ITA_Rome_Imperial
0.06192875 IND_Roopkund_B_o
0.06287078 TUR_Arslantepe_EBA
0.06321459 TUR_Ovaoren_EBA
0.06454854 England_Roman_Near_Eastern_o
0.06546938 AZE_Caucasus_lowlands_LN

In contrast to the average Palestinian Muslim that sits in between the Northern Levant and AE's:

Distance to: Palestinian
0.04690910 Levant_Beirut_Hellenistic
0.04710676 England_Roman_Near_Eastern_o
0.04917416 Levant_Sidon_MBA
0.04927879 Levant_LBN_MA
0.04937293 Levant_Beirut_IAIII_Egyptian
0.05036686 Levant_Beirut_ERoman
0.05147650 Levant_LBN_Roman
0.05324964 Levant_Ashkelon_IA2
0.05456249 Levant_Beirut_IAIII
0.05506877 Levant_Abel_IA
0.05522839 Levant_Megiddo_MLBA
0.05726192 Levant_Hazor_MLBA
0.05764686 Levant_Baqah_BA
0.05899895 Levant_Megiddo_IA
0.05916174 Levant_Beirut_IAII
0.05918128 Levant_Shadud_MLBA
0.05976529 Levant_Ashkelon_LBA
0.06148998 Levant_Megiddo_IBA
0.06184578 SYR_Ebla_EMBA
0.06219038 EGY_Late_Period
0.06511029 TUR_Alalakh_MLBA
0.06796378 Levant_JOR_EBA
0.07570574 EGY_Hellenistic
0.07717341 Levant_Yehud_IBA
0.07813061 Levant_LBN_MA_o3

Which also contrasts with Palestinian Christians who are pretty similar to the Lebanese Christians and other Levantine genetic isolated groups:

Distance to: Palestinian_Beit_Sahour
0.02032093 Levant_Beirut_ERoman
0.02065094 Levant_LBN_Roman
0.02564683 Levant_LBN_MA
0.02777846 Levant_Beirut_IAIII
0.03034335 Levant_Abel_IA
0.03268588 TUR_Alalakh_MLBA
0.03346457 SYR_Ebla_EMBA
0.03386762 Levant_Sidon_MBA
0.03644851 Levant_Ashkelon_LBA
0.03741919 Levant_Megiddo_MLBA
0.03753538 Levant_Baqah_BA
0.03790168 Levant_Beirut_IAII
0.03877085 Levant_Ashkelon_IA2
0.04068162 Levant_Hazor_MLBA
0.04437720 TUR_Arslantepe_LC
0.04560430 Levant_Shadud_MLBA
0.04605295 Levant_Beirut_Hellenistic
0.04657810 Levant_LBN_MA_o3
0.04742034 TUR_Arslantepe_EBA
0.04760420 TUR_Ovaoren_EBA
0.05179545 Levant_Megiddo_IA
0.05467909 TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA
0.05500849 Levant_Megiddo_IBA
0.05636294 IND_Roopkund_B_o
0.05738275 Levant_Ashkelon_IA1

So, all in all, Palestinian Muslims are as Levantine as western Jewish peoples(Ashkenazi and Sephardim), but not as Levantine as say the Samaritans, Christians and the Druze due to foreign admixtures with non-Levantine groups. With western Jews, they're admixed with Europeans(esp. Balkan/Greek women) while us are admixed with our southern neighbors; Arabia and Egypt.

Western Jews have become more European in genetics while you have become more Arabicized.The reason why some Palestinians can score SSA admixture, it is because from slave trade.Well,i do not want to politicized it.. and keep in mind that i am 'Pro-Peace' between Jews and Arabs but IMO Israelites are more native in the area when it comes to historical issues.They are there before the Arab settlement.When it comes to genetics,things becoming more complicated.. and as you mention above none is pure Levantine.

TheIncredibleHulk
11-30-2020, 03:32 PM
Western Jews have become more European in genetics while you have become more Arabicized.The reason why some Palestinians can score SSA admixture, it is because from slave trade.Well,i do not want to politicized it.. and keep in mind that i am 'Pro-Peace' between Jews and Arabs but IMO Israelites are more native in the area when it comes to historical issues.They are there before the Arab settlement.When it comes to genetics,things becoming more complicated.. and as you mention above none is pure Levantine.

No one says that otherwise, rofl. Yes, Israelites and other Canaanites in general were the natives to the land, and pretty much both Jews and Palestinians have around the same level of such ancestry albeit that their foreign admixtures are different, and that Jews still identify themselves as Jewish while we don't anymore(thanks to Arabization) which can be said about other Arab groups like say Egyptians who no longer speak their native language and so on.
https://www.nationalgeographic.com/history/2020/05/dna-from-biblical-canaanites-lives-modern-arabs-jews/

Though, I gotta say that Arabs as a whole did not originated from the heartland of Arabia despite that the 7th century Arab conquerors were from that region. Arabs came from the black desert region of Jordan, Syria and Saudi Arabia according to both archeological and epigraphic evidence:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dHRbuu8c8nw

jkotl0327
12-03-2020, 10:42 PM
The essence of this question has been discussed previously on the Western Jewish thread and Agamemnon pretty much repeated what he said there which was correct. The samples we have right now most likely to be Israelite are IA Megiddo and ABM, although in my opinion neither of them are likely fully Israelite, they are the only samples from the Agranat-Tamir study with a reasonable chance of being Israelite. There is also the Rome study which has a sample that many of us believe to be at least partially of proto-western-Jewish descent. Ultimately, there is no perfect Ancient Israelite proxy right now and until we sample a confirmed Ancient Israelite there won't be. We can't say for sure how similar Israelites were to the other contemporaneous Levantines or the Canaanites, only reasonably assuming that they were somewhat close genetically.