PDA

View Full Version : what is my actual haplogroup, please?



JerryS.
12-06-2020, 04:20 AM
I got I1a1b1 then it has I-M253 (ADNtro) and I-P109 (23/me). Which one is it, which one or part do I follow when I want to read on my paternal haplogroup?

JMcB
12-06-2020, 04:45 AM
I got I1a1b1 then it has I-M253 (ADNtro) and I-P109 (23/me). Which one is it, which one or part do I follow when I want to read on my paternal haplogroup?


I would think the designation from 23&me is the one you should go with. It’s the furthest one downstream and they’re fairly reliable. I haven’t paid much attention to this because it doesn’t apply to me but if you want, you can try double checking it with YSEQ’s new cladefinder tool:

https://cladefinder.yseq.net/

JerryS.
12-06-2020, 04:49 AM
I would think the designation from 23&me is the one you should go with. It’s the furthest one downstream and they’re fairly reliable. I haven’t paid much attention to this because it doesn’t apply to me but if you want, you can try double checking it with YSEQ’s new cladefinder tool:

https://cladefinder.yseq.net/

Thanks for the reply but I don't even know what they're asking for.

Are you saying that I1a1b1-I-M253 are not the same haplogroup as I-P109? I don't understand the subclades and all that.

JerryS.
12-06-2020, 04:55 AM
I would think the designation from 23&me is the one you should go with. It’s the furthest one downstream and they’re fairly reliable. I haven’t paid much attention to this because it doesn’t apply to me but if you want, you can try double checking it with YSEQ’s new cladefinder tool:

https://cladefinder.yseq.net/

Ok I've done some googling but I really not sure what I'm reading. they are all the same haplogroup but I-P109 is just an earlier more ancient strain? is that right?

digital_noise
12-06-2020, 07:32 AM
Ok I've done some googling but I really not sure what I'm reading. they are all the same haplogroup but I-P109 is just an earlier more ancient strain? is that right?

Basically. Go here: https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-P109/

You will see I-P109 at the top, saying it formed 3300 years ago. All the I-XxXxX subclades below it fall under it, and formed more recent. Its almost certain your terminal subclade isnt I-P109, but rather one of these, or something that hasnt been discovered yet depending on how many of you there are that share it.

At the top of the page you will see some other clades (A0-TA1A1bBTCTCFFGHIJKHIJKIJKIJII1I-DF29I-Y2592I-Z2336I-Z2337I-S6346I-L22I-Y3549I-S25633). These are your haplogroup going backwards, so for example I-p109 formed 3300 years ago, if you click on I1, it says it was formed 4400 years go, or roughly thereabouts.

Certain subclades tend to belong to certain ethnic groups. You might see one sublclade with a bunch of Irish members, or Swedish. Other times its a mishmash of people from all over the place. Its been pretty well established I-P109 is Scandinavian in origin, or thereabouts, but thats not to say you wont fins some random Spaniards under it.

Try the link JMcB provided. all you need to do is upload your raw 23 and me file under (2) File Upload section

deadly77
12-06-2020, 08:51 AM
I'd agree with JMcB and go with the 23andme designation. They have the P109 SNP included on both their most recent V4 and V5 chips as well as upstream SNPs L22 and CTS6364/Z2336.

I'm not familiar with ADNtro, but the I1a1b1 designation is the old nomenclature of haplogroup subclades - most people don't use it anymore and instead use the major haplogroup (say I, J, R, etc.) followed by the most downstream SNP (eg. P109) so I-P109. If I see a designation such as I1a1b1, I have to go and look it up, while I know what I-P109, I-Z140, etc. refer to. One other reason for not using this nomenclature is that it means different things on different versions of the ISOGG tree - for example, I1a1b1 refers to I-P109 on the 2016 version of the ISOGG tree but I-L22 on the 2019-2020 version of the ISOGG tree. So you have to know which reference tree ADNtro is using. To be honest, the potential for confusion is high and I would avoid it all together.

Most of the top level haplogroups (I1, J2, R1b, etc.) are thousands of years old and represent a group of men sharing a line of paternal ancestors represented in DNA by the same series of mutations on their Y chromosome which they all inherited. Some men can be grouped closer together with a more recent line of common ancestors and these are subclades so you can divide haplogroup I1 into I1a, I1b, I1c and so on. Then you can subdivide each of these groups further, based on a more recent common ancestor so I1a can get divided into I1a1, I1a2, I1a3, etc. As you can imagine, this can lead to a long alphabet soup such as I1a1b1a1e2b1a, so a few years ago the naming convention changed to the shorthand format I talked about in the previous paragraph. Along with this the major haplogroup names changed as well, so I1 became I-M253, I2 became I-M438, etc. If we use three of us as an example (and refer to the YFull tree that digital_noise posted a link to) yourself, JMcB and myself are all I1 or I-M253 (these are different names for the same thing) and we all share a common ancestor at that branch. As you refine further eventually we all branch off from each other as our Y-DNA ancestor went down a different evolutionary path. JMcB's and my ancestors are on the I-Z58 branch, while yours are on the I-Y2592 branch (look at the breadcrumbs at the top of the YFull tree) and the most recent common ancestor for the three of us is the I-DF29 branch. Since JMcB and myself are more closely related we share common ancestors on further downstream on the I-Z58, I-Z59, I-CTS8647, I-Z60, I-Z140, and I-Z141 https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-Z141/before we diverge and JMcB's Y-DNA ancestors are on the I-CTS6739 branch and mine are on the I-Z2535 branch. So myself and JMcB share a common ancestor with each other aboute 4100 years ago and the two if us with you about 4500 years ago.

So the phylogenetic trees at YFull, FTDNA, ISOGG are ways to put the SNP mutations into a genealogical order. I guess an analogy would be that myself and my third cousin share a great-great-grandfather as an ancestor while my first cousin and I share my grandfather as an ancestor but my third cousin doesn't. Or if you consider that California and Florida are both parts of the United States of America but Florida isn't part of California. It might be easier to visualize if you select the "chart" view of the YFull tree or look at these phylogenetic trees at Eupedia https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_I1_Y-DNA.shtml although bear in mind that the Eupedia trees were last updated in 2017 and are a bit out of date now. Alternatively you can take a look at this Coggle diagram which was made by one of the I-P109 admins https://coggle.it/diagram/Wzv296_5PV2rX1XO/t/i-p109

For reading up on I-P109, they have a Facebook group here https://www.facebook.com/groups/153232508763 which used to be pretty active although one of the main admins has left Facebook and it's not as active since. Or if you go to the I-P109 project page at FTDNA here https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/y-dna-i-p109/about it has contact details for the project admins who are generally pretty helpful and should be able to point you in the right direction for places to read up on I-P109.

I maintain a map of ancient DNA samples that are I1 - the link is in my signature below. This includes several I-P109 examples - SZ45 from Lombard period cemetery at Szólád (6th century A.D.) in modern day Hungary, SVK-A1 from ancient Iceland, R1286 from the Basilica of San Lorenzo in Rome are all examples of I-P109, as well as several VK samples from the recent population genetics of the viking world paper. You'll see some different subclade names after these samples - for example SZ45 is I-FGC21810 which represents a further refinement of I-P109 down branches I-FGC16695, I-Y14999 and I-FGC21819.

sheepslayer
12-06-2020, 09:05 AM
P109 is a more specific name for a specific part of M253

JerryS.
12-06-2020, 03:26 PM
*** ok, so I got this:

Most specific position on the YFull YTree is I-P109 Link to I-P109 on YFull View heatmap on Y Heatmap View theoretical migration on PhyloGeographer

I-P109 P109+
┣━I-FGC16695 +2 FGC16695(?)
┣━I-S10891 +3 S10891($)
┣━I-Y3664 +3 PF1334/M10423($) Y3664/FGC23778(?)
┗━I-Y5621 +2 Y5617/FGC16717(?) Y5621/FGC16686($)

Available Panels
I1-L22 Panel Predicted I-P109 is downstream of the panel root. This panel may be applicable if it tests subclades below I-P109. Please verify and check with YSEQ customer support.


Next best prediction (scored 98 compared to 99) I-L22


*** I then clicked on the last one 'I-Y5621' and got this:

I-Y5621Y5621/FGC16686 * Y5617/FGC16717formed 3300 ybp, TMRCA 2800 ybpinfo
I-Y5621*
I-Y6374Y25789 * Y146279 * Y26707+5 SNPsformed 2800 ybp, TMRCA 1800 ybpinfo
I-Y6374*
id:YF07196
id:VK70DNK [DK-85]agenew
I-Y28231Y29089 * Y28231 * Y29087+2 SNPsformed 1800 ybp, TMRCA 1300 ybpinfo
id:YF07752SWE
id:YF04678SWE [SE-M]
I-S23679FGC16681 * Y14330/FGC16715 * S23679+1 SNPsformed 2800 ybp, TMRCA 2800 ybpinfo
id:VK281DNK [DK-85]ageinew
I-S23679*
I-FGC33239FGC33241 * BY158336 * FGC33239formed 2800 ybp, TMRCA 1650 ybpinfo
id:YF14402POL [PL-WN]
id:YF03174GBR
I-L1438L1438/S19489 * Y5614/FGC16702 * Y5616/FGC16706+13 SNPsformed 2800 ybp, TMRCA 1650 ybpinfo
I-L1438*
id:YF01618FRA [FR-14]
I-Y15572FGC22153 * Y15572 * FGC22155+8 SNPsformed 1650 ybp, TMRCA 375 ybpinfo
id:YF03531GBR [GB-ESS]
id:YF01921

*** then I went back and clicked on the I-L22 and got:

Most specific position on the YFull YTree is I-L22 Link to I-L22 on YFull View heatmap on Y Heatmap View theoretical migration on PhyloGeographer

I-L22 L22/S142+
┣━I-FGC28767 +1 FGC28767($) FGC28769($) FGC28776(?) FGC28779(?) FGC28780(?) FGC28782(?) FGC28788(?) FGC28789(?) FGC28792(?)
┣━I-FGC41265 +3 FGC41265($)
┣━I-PH497 BY78813(?) BY86997(?) FGC57361(?) FT10074(?) PH1319($) PH497($) PH977($) S10773(?) Y64934(?) Y71212(?) Y71816($) Y72678(?) Y73174(?) Y73753(?) Y75913(?) Y78537(?) Y78897(?)
┣━I-Y24054 +1 Y24054/FGC54049(?)
┗━I-Y3549 +4 Y3549/FGC8754(?) Z2338/CTS11651($)

*** then I went and clicked on the 1I-L22 panel and got this:

I1-L22 (including P109) Panel
[I1-L22Panel]
I1-L22 (including P109) PanelThis panel is recommended to persons who have tested L22+ before or who have a clear prediction for this haplogroup.

With this DNA test we start with 3 key SNPs:


P109
CTS6868
CTS2208

Then we work down the branches iteratively until we have found your position on the given tree.


The test is completed when the unique phylogenetic position on the tree has been determined.


See this tree diagram to understand the groupings in this panel:


L22 / S142
PH497 new
Y23688
Y23699 new
Y23693 new
Y24056
FGC28767 new
Y139735 new
FGC41265 new
Y21091
Y24791
PH5383
Y20843
Y30053
S19986
Y10646
Y19413
S9318
Y100876 new
Y17218
Y16808
Y31084
Y37113
Y3605
Y3601
Y11647
Y15298
Y15031
Y21524
Y23708
CTS11603 / S4744
FGC14412
Y24631
S6437
Y22028
Y23319
Y19934
Y19933
Y22016
Y22396
L300 / S241
Y32102
CTS108
Y22918
Y22914
FGC52008 / Y24013
Y31106
FGC52009
FGC52012
FGC52006
Z2338 / CTS11651
CTS5350
Y21962
L205 / S239
A10198
Y11821
A5573
P109
FGC21824
M10423
FGC31049
Y5621
Y26707
Y29086
BY73576 new
S23679
L1438
Y15860
S10891
FGC21728
Y24453
FGC21732
CTS8407
Y14222
Y5840
Y22993
Y5839
FGC21695
FGC21685
Y20205
FGC21683
Y18385
Y19790
Y19793
S7660
FGC14188 / Y4048
Y4047
Y5488
FGC21838
S14887
Y30033
Y20844
Y11203
Y29628
Y29631
FGC22045
FGC33034
FGC22054
FGC13270 / Y4115
FGC13273 / Y4114
FGC13277 / Y7530
Y4734
Y4741
FGC21970
Y4739
Y13944
Y4740
FGC14508 / Y3663
FGC22131 / Y7656
FGC23758
FGC14514 / Y6205
FGC14515 / Y7545
FGC14507
FGC22110
FGC17110 / Y6213
FGC23560 / Y6220
FGC22112 / YP1012
FGC22113
FGC43220 / Y19678
FGC22115
CTS6868
BY3461 / Y18232
Y17922
Z74
M6003
L813
Y30026
Y30373
Y30022
Y5153
FGC15303
Y18927
Y21736
Y21737
Y23712
Y15505
Y14994
Y19917
Y24951
Y5476
BY47860
Y5477
Y5474
Y5483
PH159
Y19670
Y20037
Y23527
Y15154
Y17669
Y13038
Y13505
BY3429
Y8943
Y80329
FGC17581 / Y9434
FGC17586
FGC51755
FGC52743
Y13039
A18256
Y30042
Y24482
Y16704
Y16448
Y17675
Y24812
CTS2208
Y24703
Y30054
Y20288
Y30547
Y23646
Y36116
Y23647
Y31092
Y23967
L287 / S240
BY594
L258 / S335
Y23449
Y8598
Y16256
Y16174
Y17641
Y15027
Y15859
Y16347
Y17381
Y17380
Z2045
Y17401
Y21563
Y21558
Y17220
BY2572 / Y13391
Y13389
Y13390
Y17215
Y19842
L296
Z721 / CTS2242 / S437
Z133
Y15897
BY511 / Y10973
CTS3496
Y16812
Y22004
Y22888
Y24060
Y10990
Y19077
CTS1321
Y20304
Y19820

JerryS.
12-06-2020, 03:51 PM
Thanks to all of you guys. I'm far from having a good handle on this but I'm starting to see things better now.