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View Full Version : Z2103, Z2104, Z2105, Z2106, Z2107, Z2108, Z2109, Z2110 & Sanger sequencing



Joe B
02-27-2014, 02:55 AM
SNPs Z2103 and Z2105 have been available for the Sanger sequencing test from FTDNA for awhile. YSEQ recently added Z2104, Z2107 and Z2110/CTS7822 to their catalog of SNPs that can be tested. So I took the plunge and ordered all three from YSEQ. My goal is to have quality Sanger sequencing data for Z2103 through Z2110. Data that could be used for the ISOGG haplogroup tree if needed.
Z2110/CTS7822 came in negative in just two weeks. YSEQ is good and quick.
Z2104 is presenting some challenges because two sections of my genome are competing for attention. This SNP is in a homologous region that can recombine with a different chromosome. 1506 The double peak is highlighted in blue. Dr.Krahn in trying "Nested PCR" for additional filtering that may or may not work. We will know soon. Thanks to Thomas for this information and the extra effort.
I was caught mentally flat footed by this.
Fortunately Vince T had a post on another thread the other day that gave some clues on what this might mean for picking SNPs to test.

The 'X' call is an ambiguous call, i.e. heterozygous. It usually arises when the read alignment pattern stacks on a region that is highly similar or identical to other parts of the Y-chromosome, or to highly similar or identical regions existing in any of the other chromosomes. Often those calls tend to be in within the Y-centromere, in X-Y transpositions, or Y-palindrome arms.

The '?' call on the other hand means that there are insufficient reads in the alignment to make a '+', '-', or 'X' call.
Any hints or clues on how to better pick SNPs would be greatly appreciated?
What are the good regions of the Y chromosome for Sanger sequencing? How far from the Y-centromere should the SNP be?
Based on distance from the Y-centromere, are Z2104, Z2106, Z2108 and Z2109 in a more difficult region for Sanger sequencing? Conversely, are Z2103, Z2105, Z2107 and Z2110 in more suitable regions? Attached are the ISOGG YBrowse browser views of Z2103 thru Z2110 for comparison.

1507 or large view (https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7347/12806525034_50c993b15c_o.jpg).
Z2104 ISOGG YBrowse
http://ybrowse.isogg.org/cgi-bin/gb2/gbrowse/chrY/?name=ChrY%3A14167962..14167962

Thanks!

Joe B
03-10-2014, 04:55 AM
Could you tell me chromosome positions for SNPs Z8127 to Z8159?
CTS9906 is private for HG01515 (CTS9212).


At the moment Z2104 and Z2107 are on the same level as Z2105 and Z2103.
Just got the result for Z2107 from YSEQ. Negative
Z2107 Allele T-
anc: T der: C
mutation: T to C
ISOGG YBrowse Z2107 (http://ybrowse.isogg.org/cgi-bin/gb2/gbrowse/chrY/?name=Z2107)
Z2107 Details (http://ybrowse.isogg.org/cgi-bin/gb2/gbrowse_details/chrY?ref=ChrY;start=17428984;end=17428984;name=Z21 07;class=Sequence;feature_id=38496;db_id=chrY%3Ada tabase)

Negative for Z2107 is surprising. Assuming I read my results correctly.

Here are my Sanger sequencing results so far for Z2103 - Z2110.
Z2103+, Z2105+, Z2107-, Z2110-, L277-, L584-. Any thoughts on Z2106, Z2108 and Z2109?

YSEQ is still working on the most difficult Z2104.

Rathna
03-10-2014, 06:10 AM
Just got the result for Z2107 from YSEQ. Negative
Z2107 Allele T-
anc: T der: C
mutation: T to C
ISOGG YBrowse Z2107 (http://ybrowse.isogg.org/cgi-bin/gb2/gbrowse/chrY/?name=Z2107)
Z2107 Details (http://ybrowse.isogg.org/cgi-bin/gb2/gbrowse_details/chrY?ref=ChrY;start=17428984;end=17428984;name=Z21 07;class=Sequence;feature_id=38496;db_id=chrY%3Ada tabase)

Negative for Z2107 is surprising. Assuming I read my results correctly.

Here are my Sanger sequencing results so far for Z2103 - Z2110.
Z2103+, Z2105+, Z2107-, Z2110-, L277-, L584-. Any thoughts on Z2106, Z2108 and Z2109?

YSEQ is still working on the most difficult Z2104.

If you look at the smal's tree, it seems that Z2107 is on the same plane of Z2104, CTS9416, PF7575, Y:6687319 and Y:14629851. It is possible that you are negative for all these SNPs and to be a true R-Z2103/Z2105*, but you could break these SNPs and to be positive for some of them. We wont be able to know this without testing each SNPs.
Even more you should be negative for Z2106, Z2108 and Z2109. Interesting would be also the three SNPs of Chromo2: Y16050529 and the other two I posted in "R1b phylogeny".

Joe B
03-10-2014, 06:43 PM
If you look at the smal's tree, it seems that Z2107 is on the same plane of Z2104, CTS9416, PF7575, Y:6687319 and Y:14629851. It is possible that you are negative for all these SNPs and to be a true R-Z2103/Z2105*, but you could break these SNPs and to be positive for some of them. We wont be able to know this without testing each SNPs.
Even more you should be negative for Z2106, Z2108 and Z2109. Interesting would be also the three SNPs of Chromo2: Y16050529 and the other two I posted in "R1b phylogeny".Key words from smal are "at the moment" as the tree is evolving. I'm always looking at smal's tree. http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?1727-R1b-phylogeny&p=26401&viewfull=1#post26401

I have added NA20532 (http://www.semargl.me/en/dna/ydna/kit/60264/) and NA20866 (http://www.semargl.me/en/dna/ydna/kit/60265/) into Semargl database.

There are five Z2103 sequences from the 1000 genomes project with the therminal SNPs:
Z2106, Z2107 - NA20532
CTS7763, CTS8966 - NA18645
Z2108, Z2109 - NA20866
CTS7822/Z2110 - HG01277
CTS9212 - HG01515

But there are no sequences for the L584 and L277 branches. Now we will have the L584 sequence. That's great. We also really need to have the L277 sequence to construct a correct tree of the Z2103 branch.Not picking on you smal! Just another useful post from you.
Does anybody know if the phylogeny of Z2103 - Z2110 is settled or presumed? My guess is based on the lack of data that it is presumed and not proven.
Reminder that we do have a L584 waiting on Big Y results.

Joe B
03-22-2014, 02:24 AM
Thanks Joe, on the topic on Mike W's R1b, my husband is Z2103+, Z2105+, L584-, L277- all Sanger sequencing. Waiting for Big Y for N112116.
Hello Fire,
This thread is better for N112116. Your husband is a good man as we both have YCAII=18-23, see 257842. I'm sure it's just coincidental. One thing we do have in common is mml2303-a- uas, the unassigned speculative rating in Mike W's Early R1b Haplotypes spreadsheet (http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?1469-R1b-Early-Subclades-Haplotypes-Spreadsheet).
Smal's tree (http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?1727-R1b-phylogeny&p=26401&viewfull=1#post26401) has the most detail for R1b-Z2103/Z2105. . Smargl (http://www.semargl.me/en/dna/ydna/) is a good source too.
FTDNA has been a little slow to offer many of these SNPs à la carte. As you can see from this thread, YSEQ (http://www.yseq.net/) is worth looking at. They use a dry sample which may make it easier for shipping too.
We do have a brand new Bulgarian R1b-Z2110/CTS7822, brygian. http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?1096-From-R-L150-to-R-CTS7822&p=34575&viewfull=1#post34575

So, Bulgarian Rakia doesn't turn the ice white?

Pillar_of_fire
03-22-2014, 05:26 AM
:) Mastika does http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mastika :beerchug:

N112116 has no matches on any level even in the limits of the accepted GD (he is tested up to 67). Knowing the number of R1b I expected at least one or two....

So the BIG Y will be a eye opener, but we will have to wait - just received the update. too bad - don't know in which percentage my kits are.....

Joe B
03-22-2014, 09:27 PM
:) Mastika does http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mastika :beerchug:

N112116 has no matches on any level even in the limits of the accepted GD (he is tested up to 67). Knowing the number of R1b I expected at least one or two....

So the BIG Y will be a eye opener, but we will have to wait - just received the update. too bad - don't know in which percentage my kits are.....High GDs and funky STRs are a hallmark of this clade. Doing the Big Y is big news!

Joe B
03-28-2014, 08:48 PM
Z2104/PF7575 results came it today. Positive
Z2104 Allele T+
anc: C der: T
mutation: C to T

My Sanger sequencing tested SNPs are Z2103+, Z2104+, Z2105+, Z2107-, Z2110-, L277-, L584- and would seem to indicate that Z2104 and Z2107 are not on the same plane.
YSEQ 39 = FTDNA 257842

smal
03-28-2014, 09:43 PM
YSEQ 39 = FTDNA 234905 (L277+) Z2104+

Joe B
03-28-2014, 10:29 PM
YSEQ 39 = FTDNA 234905 (L277+) Z2104+
Considering how diffucult Z2104 was to test, we are very fortunate to have two Z2104 results today.

Rathna
03-28-2014, 10:32 PM
YSEQ 39 = FTDNA 234905 (L277+) Z2104+

Ivanov's haplotype is in line with our predictions for L277:
12, 24, 14, 10, 11-15, 12, 12, 12, 12, 14, 27
i.e. DYS392=14 and DYS389II=15.
I invite you to look at Mattoli's haplotype and the other two Italians I posted on "R1b phylogeny".
That L277 is under Z2103/Z2104/Z2105+ (but also Z2107) is in line with the smal's tree and I remember that I hypothesized that the Tuscan of the 1KGP (NA20532) with the values: DYS392=14 and DYS389I and II = 13-28 could be an L277.
Of course these Italians could also be of Eastern European origin or elsewhere. We don't know so far.

Rathna
03-29-2014, 05:22 AM
If this is true: Z2106, Z2107 - NA20532 (posted by smal), thus L277 should be on the left side of the tree, but whether NA20532 is positive for Z2106 should be examined again. Perhaps smal or semargl could do it.

P.S. Of course there is also the possibility that L277 is under Z2103/Z2104/Z2105+ and that NA20532 isn't L277+, but its position as to Z2106 should be cleared the same.

smal
03-29-2014, 10:21 AM
Unfortunately, we need more tests to answer these questions.

NA18645 CHB Z2103+ Z2105? Z2104+ S20902- Z2106+ Z2107+ Z2108? Z2109-
NA20532 TSI Z2103+ Z2105+ Z2104+ S20902? Z2106? Z2107? Z2108- Z2109-
NA20866 GIH Z2103+ Z2105+ Z2104+ S20902+ Z2106+ Z2107+ Z2108+ Z2109+
HG01277 CLM Z2103? Z2105? Z2104? S20902+/- Z2106+ Z2107+ Z2108+ Z2109+
HG01515 IBS Z2103+ Z2105+ Z2104+ S20902+ Z2106+ Z2107+ Z2108+ Z2109+

? = no reads

Pillar_of_fire
04-01-2014, 02:52 AM
N112116 has no matches on any level even in the limits of the accepted GD (he is tested up to 67). Knowing the number of R1b I expected at least one or two....

So the BIG Y will be a eye opener, but we will have to wait - just received the update. too bad - don't know in which percentage my kits are.....

Big Y results in for N112116.

Please take a look and comment:)

Pillar_of_fire
04-01-2014, 02:59 AM
N112116 is Z2106+, Z2109 no call, Z2108+, CTS7822+, Z2110 no call, CTS699-,CTS9219-, F672-

Rathna
04-01-2014, 03:06 AM
N112116 is Z2106+, Z2109 no call, Z2108+, CTS7822+, Z2110 no call, CTS699-,CTS9219-, F672-

Thus he is R-Z2110/CTS7822* (like me so far), but if he has had a Big Y it will be interesting to see all his data and what about my about 15 new SNPs found on Chromo2. May we see his full data?

Pillar_of_fire
04-01-2014, 03:11 AM
The link for download raw data is giving an error - usually it takes 48 hours after publishing the results. The BAM file is available at request and it takes about 2 weeks.....

I will be happy to share the results

Rathna
04-01-2014, 03:15 AM
The link for download raw data is giving an error - usually it takes 48 hours after publishing the results. The BAM file is available at request and it takes about 2 weeks.....

I will be happy to share the results

You'll be able to compare the raw data with my mutations.

"The positions of my SNPs are these:
PF2642=13,210,264
PF7499=14,984,657
S10358=7,568,055
S12460=9,762,847
S13077=10,036,994
S3023=4,190,976
S3530=CTS111=2,736,407
S629=21,691,570
S6814=14,326,011
S8628=3,713,309
S8670=3,715,431
S8706=3,717,921
S8714=3,718,514
S8726=3,718,895
Z612=17,509,602

P.S. The mutation S17864, where I have a no_call, but which is linked for Linkage disequilibrium to the other two (S12460, S20902) and I thought upstream Z2105, is Y16,050,529 from T to G. The paper of Rootsy et al on the Levites R1a gives it downstream Z2103/Z2104/Z2105/Z2107.
It would be very interesting because from Chromo2 it would seem that also L277 would be downstream, but of course something doesn't fit.
Of course I lacked to publish S20902= Y18,383,837".

Rathna
04-01-2014, 03:29 AM
Also in our STRs we are closely related: look at the series:
8 10 10 8 10 11
11 13 11 11 12 12
thus probably a link not more than 4000 years.

N112116 Hristo Nochev, b. around 1870, Chelopech R1b1a2a1
12 22 15 10 11-14 12 12 12 13 14 29 15 9-10 11 11 24 15 19 29 14-16-17-18 11 11 18-23 15 16 19 17 37-37 11 12 11 9 15-16 8 10 10 8 10 11 12 23-23 17 10 12 12 17 8 11 22 20 13 12 11 13 11 11 12 12
H1614 Antonio del Badia (1449-?) Castelfiorentino (Firenze) R1b1a2
12 24 15 10 11-14 12 12 12 13 12 29 16 9-10 11 11 24 15 19 29 14-14-16-17 10 11 19-23 16 15 19 17 36-37 12 12 11 9 15-16 8 10 10 8 10 11 12 23-24 16 10 12 12 16 8 12 22 21 13 12 11 13 11 11 12 12 32 15 9 16 11 25 26 19 12 11 13 12 10 9 12 11 10 11 11 30 12 14 24 14 10 9 20 15 19 14 23 18 12 15 24 12 23 18 10 14 18 9 11 11

P.S. By looking at DYS464:
Nochev= 14 16 17 18
me= 14 14 16 17
by presupposing an ancestral 14 15 16 18
it is likekable that Nochev has had DYS464b from 15 to 16 and DYS464c from 16 to 17
and me DYS464b from 15 to 14 and DYS464d from 18 to 17.
Thus two mutations in DYS464, I think reasonably in the limits of 4000 years.
I have explained in other threads as from our R-Z2110* derived the East European cluster and now we know also the "Balkan cluster" with DYS385=11-11, DYS459a=8 etc., both R-CTS9219.
We'll be able to understand in the next future where was the origin of R-Z2110*.

Pillar_of_fire
04-01-2014, 03:32 AM
He has only S12460=9,762,847 with reference A

all the others are not found

Rathna
04-01-2014, 04:16 AM
He has only S12460=9,762,847 with reference A

all the others are not found
How can you say this if you haven't the raw data? The S SNPs probably aren't recognized by FTDNA and without the raw data you cannot see the Y position. Anyway it is true that my mutations are in a region of Y not tested by Big Y, but positions with an higher number should be tested and you'll be able to see in the raw data.

P.S.
These positions should be tested
S17864=Y16,050,529
S20902= Y18,383,837
and are in Linkage disequilibrium with
S12460=9,762,847
and he should be positive.

Rathna
04-01-2014, 04:39 AM
My result is S12460 AG positive, and it is considered positive for the G, thus your husband's result A should be negative.
If this will be confirmed, your husband's R-Z2110* is different from mine and from the English ones tested by Chromo2.

Rathna
04-01-2014, 05:03 AM
I wrote in "R1b phylogeny":
"10 are Z2110 (Z2103 is unreliable) and S12460, S17864, S20902 (these 3 SNPs are upstream also Z2105 and L277 [this had been demonstrated not true])
588: CTS9219, S3844, S8889
589: CTS9219, PF2642 (I too, but probably it is a little reliable)
590: CTS9219
592: CTS9219, CTS4122, S13125
593
595:
1556: CTS9219
1588: CTS9219
1839: CTS9219
1996: CTS3849, CTS7206, L128, S4269"

If your husband were negative for these three SNPs he would belong to an R-Z2110* not ancestor of the subclades, beginning from CTS9219 and the "Balkan cluster".
We'd have here the same situation of R1b1/L389-. Perhaps hg. R came from East (but it isn't said, because they could be also an old expansion from West), but only from the "Italian" R-Z2110* were born the subclades.

Joe B
04-01-2014, 05:05 AM
Nazdrave:beerchug:Mastika

N112116 is Z2106+, Z2109 no call, Z2108+, CTS7822+, Z2110 no call, CTS699-,CTS9219-, F672-
FTDNA must have feared the Fire on deadline day. Congratulations to you and N112116! We are going to learn a lot of phylogeny because of this test. So thank you and him from us.

As soon as you can, please consider using YFull's Y-Chr Sequence Interpretation Service while it is still free. http://www.yfull.com/

YSEQ is going to do a "trial run" on me with Z2106 because it is another Z-SNP in a difficult location. This Z2106+ result from your Big Y test gives me more hope that it can be sequenced. Thank you! It's going to be important to gain a good understanding of the regions that are sequenced by Big Y.

Any ideas on why Z2110 is a no call while CTS7822 is called? They are one in the same.
http://ybrowse.isogg.org/cgi-bin/gb2/gbrowse/chrY/?name=Z2110
http://ybrowse.isogg.org/cgi-bin/gb2/gbrowse/chrY/?name=CTS7822

Thanks Fire

Pillar_of_fire
04-01-2014, 05:13 AM
How can you say this if you haven't the raw data?

I said that the raw data can not be downloaded, but this does not mean it is not visible on the page of the testee. The results are displayed in two different tabs like an excel table. The first tab is known, the second tab is novel. there are 10 lines displayed per page. One can search the novel by position.

N112116 has
Novel - high quality - 108
Novel - medium quality -12

Pillar_of_fire
04-01-2014, 05:20 AM
Any ideas on why Z2110 is a no call while CTS7822 is called? They are one in the same.
http://ybrowse.isogg.org/cgi-bin/gb2/gbrowse/chrY/?name=Z2110
http://ybrowse.isogg.org/cgi-bin/gb2/gbrowse/chrY/?name=CTS7822

Thanks Fire

You are too fast with the questions:). I am not so in depth of R-Z2103+ and I rely on the experts.... We will have food to chew on for a long time ...

Pillar_of_fire
04-01-2014, 05:24 AM
here is what it looks like

1670

Joe B
04-01-2014, 05:31 AM
I said that the raw data can not be downloaded, but this does not mean it is not visible on the page of the testee. The results are displayed in two different tabs like an excel table. The first tab is known, the second tab is novel. there are 10 lines displayed per page. One can search the novel by position.

N112116 has
Novel - high quality - 108
Novel - medium quality -12
Looks like 247019, a known R1b-CTS7822 haplotype, got his BIG Y results today too.
He's in the R1b1a2 (P312- U106-) DNA Project (https://www.familytreedna.com/public/ht35new/default.aspx?section=ysnp).

Pillar_of_fire
04-01-2014, 05:32 AM
So then I copy pasted the positions

here is the result for 9762847
1671

and then the other for example 13210064
1672

Rathna
04-01-2014, 06:01 AM
So then I copy pasted the positions

here is the result for 9762847
1671

and then the other for example 13210064
1672

I am seeing that your husband has a G, thus he is positive. Thus he matches me and all the other Englishmen tested from Chromo2. You said A, but A is the ancestral value.

Pillar_of_fire
04-01-2014, 06:06 AM
Then I made a mistake... It is not every day when one gets BIG Y results.... :) early in the morning. Sorry for the mistake I made

Rathna
04-01-2014, 07:05 AM
Then I made a mistake... It is not every day when one gets BIG Y results.... :) early in the morning. Sorry for the mistake I made

Pillar_of_fire, it seems that FTDNA has added the Big Y mutations with those of Geno 2.0 in Ware. He is an African American who descends from an English Smith who belongs to the wrong cluster of R-L150-, actually R-Z2110*, and linked to Italian Romitti. I have spoken about his case so much also in this forum. Perhaps also your husband's mutations could be published on FTDNA "ht 35 Project", but I don't know if they require an Geno 2.0 for adding them. Of course they don't use the S sign of the BritainsDNA, but other signs. I am seeing that there are so many PF SNPs from the Italian stock. Perhaps you could compare your husband's SNPs with those of Ware's.

Rathna
04-01-2014, 07:28 AM
Ware gets my mutation PF2642. I have to control the others by the position.

Rathna
04-01-2014, 08:09 AM
@ Pillar_of_fire,

I too did a mistake: the position of PF2642 is 13210264. Please, control again, because Ware is positive.

P.S. Nochev has the mutation, but it is also in R-L51, thus it is upstream R-L23*.

Rathna
04-01-2014, 10:59 AM
These are the mutation of Nochev not possessed by Ware. Of course we shall see the no_calls, etc.:
CTS2619+, CTS2989+, CTS3650+, CTS4862+, CTS608+, IMS-JST022451_2+, L1155+, L1179+, L957+, L482+, L498+, L500+, L502+, L506+, L508+, L543+, L58+, L585+, P69+, P9.1+, PF1420+, PF5498+, PF6054+, PF6460+, PF6511+, PF6512+, PR5010+.

These are the mutation of Ware not possessed by Nochev. Of course we shall see the no_calls, etc.:
CTS11471+, CTS11819+, CTS11841+, CTS12947+, CTS1932+, CTS196+, CTS3316+, CTS6009+, CTS7301+, CTS7556+, CTS8052+, CTS9018+, L1060+, L1068+, L112+, L1462+, L440+, , L482+, L498+, L500+, L506+, L508+, L543+, L58+, L585+, L774+, M168+, M173+, M207+, M213+, P295+, P97+, PF5869+, PF5876+, PF5973+, PF6443+, PF6444+, Y783.2+, YSC0000624+, Z1525+, Z2001+, Z740+.

Many of these mutations of Ware are also in R-L51: these are the remaining ones:
CTS11471+, CTS11841+, CTS3316+, CTS6009+, CTS7301+, CTS7556+, CTS9018+, L1060+, L1068+, L112+, L1462+, L440+, , L482+, L498+, L500+, L506+, L508+, L543+, L58+, L585+, M168+, M173+, M207+, M213+, P295+, P97+, PF5876+, PF5973+, PF6443+, Y783.2+, Z2001+.

These SNPs, common to Ware and Nochev, may belong to R-Z2103...Z2110+:
CTS2680+, PF6069+, PR1220+.
And these only to the Ware's line:
CTS11841+, CTS6009+, CTS7556+, L112+, L440+, PF5973+, PF6443+, Y783.2.


Many of these mutations of Nochev are also in R-L51: these are the remaining ones:
CTS2989+, CTS608+, L1179+, P69+, P9.1+, PF1420+, PR5010+.

P.S. Of course many of these SNPs are ancestral, like M173, M207 etc.
A little remains.

Pillar_of_fire
04-01-2014, 03:45 PM
this is too much information for me :) - I sent you a mail to the mail you provided eastara.

Hope it helps

Pillar_of_fire
04-01-2014, 03:50 PM
N112116 is Z2106+, Z2109 no call, Z2108+, CTS7822+, Z2110 no call, CTS699-,CTS9219-, F672-

and to add he is L23+ and L49-,

while 274480 is L23- and L49+,

it may mean that L23 and L49 are not on the same plane

Rathna
04-01-2014, 05:05 PM
this is too much information for me :) - I sent you a mail to the mail you provided eastara.

Hope it helps


I thank Elena for having sent me the raw data. It is meaningful that:
1) amongst the three known SNPs of mine tested by Chromo2, her husband Nochev is negative:
CTS111-,PF7499-,Z612-.
2) amongst his novel SNPs he is positive only for S12460 (Y9762847) and for Y14629851 of the smal's tree
3) Nochev hasn't any of the SNPs of the Kurdish Jew (16881) from the Rootsy et al paper (2013) about the Levites R1a: thus these two lines of R-Z2110 are separated from many thousands of years
4) Nochev and Ware have in common CTS2680, PF6069, PR1220.

Rathna
04-01-2014, 05:25 PM
and to add he is L23+ and L49-,

while 274480 is L23- and L49+,

it may mean that L23 and L49 are not on the same plane

This is his test: L49-. But on eng.molgen I wrote:

"About L49 we have these results:
65964 Antonio Mirante, Catanzaro, Italy R1b1a2 R-M269 L23-, L49-, [and all Italians tested]
101029 Pesach/Peter Arcus b.1822 Minsk/Belarus R1b1a2 R-M269 L23-, L49-, [and all the Jewish cluster]
174259 Tour-Sarkissian, Hadjin, Turkey R1b1a2 R-M269 L23-, L49-, [and all Armenians tested]
13045 Sidi Med El Mekki, ca. 1600, Algeria R1b1a2 R-M269 L23-, L49-,
N60445 Chevallier Barnoux, 1794 R1b1a2 R1b1a2 R-M269 L23-, L49-, [and all French tested]
86425 Gerasim Myzev b. 1912 and d. 1980 R1b1a2 R-M269 L23-, L49-,
and all the people L23+ are also L49+.

What to think about your case? That to test his close Greek may be done, of course, but we'll have two solutions:
1) if also the Greek will result positive for L49, we may think to a back mutation happened in this cluster of R-M269/PF7558/PF7562/PF7563+
2) if the Greek will result negative, we may think to a back mutation only in his familial line.

I don't think that this result will be able to change the phylogeny of this haplogroup".
It is curious this case of two Bulgarians, one R-M269*, who should be L23- and L49- and is L23- L49+, and the other, who is R-Z2110*, who should be L23+ and L49+, and is L23+ and L49-.
But they have tens of SNPs that put them without any doubt in their haplogroup. What do I conclude? That L49 is in these cases unreliable or may have had back mutations.

smal
04-02-2014, 08:21 AM
NA18645 CTS11841? CTS2680+ CTS2989? CTS6009? CTS608- CTS7556? L112? P9.1? PF1420? PF5495+ PF5973? PF6069+ PF6443? PR1220? PR5010- Y783.2?
NA20532 CTS11841? CTS2680? CTS2989+ CTS6009+ CTS608? CTS7556- L112? P9.1+ PF1420? PF5495? PF5973? PF6069+ PF6443+ PR1220+ PR5010- Y783.2+
HG01277 CTS11841? CTS2680+ CTS2989? CTS6009+ CTS608- CTS7556? L112? P9.1? PF1420? PF5495+ PF5973+ PF6069? PF6443+ PR1220? PR5010- Y783.2?
NA20866 CTS11841? CTS2680+ CTS2989+ CTS6009+ CTS608? CTS7556- L112- P9.1+ PF1420+ PF5495+ PF5973+ PF6069+/- PF6443+ PR1220+/- PR5010- Y783.2?
HG01515 CTS11841- CTS2680? CTS2989? CTS6009+ CTS608- CTS7556+ L112? P9.1? PF1420+ PF5495? PF5973+ PF6069+ PF6443+ PR1220+/- PR5010- Y783.2+

Rathna
04-02-2014, 09:24 AM
NA18645 CTS11841? CTS2680+ CTS2989? CTS6009? CTS608- CTS7556? L112? P9.1? PF1420? PF5495+ PF5973? PF6069+ PF6443? PR1220? PR5010- Y783.2?
NA20532 CTS11841? CTS2680? CTS2989+ CTS6009+ CTS608? CTS7556- L112? P9.1+ PF1420? PF5495? PF5973? PF6069+ PF6443+ PR1220+ PR5010- Y783.2+
HG01277 CTS11841? CTS2680+ CTS2989? CTS6009+ CTS608- CTS7556? L112? P9.1? PF1420? PF5495+ PF5973+ PF6069? PF6443+ PR1220? PR5010- Y783.2?
NA20866 CTS11841? CTS2680+ CTS2989+ CTS6009+ CTS608? CTS7556- L112- P9.1+ PF1420+ PF5495+ PF5973+ PF6069+/- PF6443+ PR1220+/- PR5010- Y783.2?
HG01515 CTS11841- CTS2680? CTS2989? CTS6009+ CTS608- CTS7556+ L112? P9.1? PF1420+ PF5495? PF5973+ PF6069+ PF6443+ PR1220+/- PR5010- Y783.2+

Many thanks, smal, but I was looking at semarglDNA and many of these SNPs are in many haplogroups, even though this doesn't mean that some of them couldn't be interesting within our hg. The most interesting ones seem: CTS7556, PF5973 (present only in one R1a). PF6443 seems in L23.
I asked the novel SNPs to Ware for comparing them with Nochev's. Hope he will send them to me.

Rathna
04-02-2014, 09:44 AM
Why CTS7556 could be interesting, because it is clearly a SNP at the Z2110 level and demonstrates that CTS9219 (like HG01515 and all the Eastern European ones descend from Ware: I have said that they are linked to the Italian haplotype like Romitti) and not from the R-Z2110 of Nochev. It will be confirmed what I said above when Elena gave me a wrong information about a SNP.
Nochev could be also an R-Z2110 from the Caucasus or even from Central Asia, having Bulgarians a Turkish component. But I should see if he has been tested for this SNP.

P.S. Nochev hasn't been tested for this SNP [CTS7552-, CTS7557-], I don't know why, thus we cannot say that he is negative. Probably he will be positive.

smal
04-02-2014, 10:06 AM
Nochev hasn't been tested for this SNP [CTS7552-, CTS7557-], I don't know why, thus we cannot say that he is negative. Probably he will be positive.

Yes, it would be better to look at BAM files.

Rathna
04-02-2014, 10:07 AM
Neither for PF5973 Nochev has been tested, but in one long series of positive SNPs, thus he should be positive for LD:
PF5861+, PF5862+, PF5863+, PF5864+, PF5869+, PF5870+, PF5871+, PF5872+, PF5881+, PF5882+, PF5884+, PF5885+, PF5886+, PF5888+, PF5889+, PF5895+, PF5908+, PF5911+, PF5914+, PF5916+, PF5919+, PF5920+, PF5936+, PF5940+, PF5943+, PF5944+, PF5945+, PF5949+, PF5951+, PF5953+, PF5954+, PF5955+, PF5956+, PF5957+, PF5958+, PF5964+, PF5965+, PF5967+, PF5970+, PF5971+, PF5975+, PF5978+, PF5980+, PF5981+, PF5982+, PF5984+, PF5985+, PF5991+,

Joe B
04-02-2014, 04:08 PM
I said that the raw data can not be downloaded, but this does not mean it is not visible on the page of the testee. The results are displayed in two different tabs like an excel table. The first tab is known, the second tab is novel. there are 10 lines displayed per page. One can search the novel by position.

N112116 has
Novel - high quality - 108
Novel - medium quality -12
Larry said this on another thread. It's good information and advice.

This blogger indeed got Y-STRs and mtDNA from YFull's analysis (http://www.fc.id.au/2014/03/yfull-y-chr-sequence-interpretation.html) of his Big Y (.bam) file. As long as YFull is offering their service for free, Big Y is an amazing bargain for anyone who does not yet have 111 markers or full mtDNA sequencing.

I myself would therefore recommend Big Y to anyone who can afford it.
http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?1096-From-R-L150-to-R-CTS7822&p=35403&viewfull=1#post35403

Edit: FGC would be a good choice for analysis too. This was posted today.

The free transfer period for FGC analysis of Big Y BAMs is still open.

Pillar_of_fire
04-03-2014, 05:34 AM
I asked help desk for the BAM files - they will be available after two weeks or so. So frustrated that BAM files are not available together with the results in on go.

Rathna
04-03-2014, 06:53 AM
I asked help desk for the BAM files - they will be available after two weeks or so. So frustrated that BAM files are not available together with the results in on go.

But you have all to answer our questions, as I did. We can see from your attachments not only the novel SNPs, not only the known ones published also on FTDNA, but also if a SNP was tested or not. What are the BAM files and what could they add to this?
It is strange that in two SNPs, I have demonstrated fundamental for the Z2110 phylogeny, your husband hasn't been tested. The doubt remains, but it will be able to be solved by a SNP test when it is available.

smal
04-03-2014, 07:25 AM
What are the BAM files and what could they add to this?


Without any doubts the BAM file is a very useful tool.

Rathna
04-03-2014, 08:41 AM
Without any doubts the BAM file is a very useful tool.

But what will be able to add to these SNPs we already know not having been tested?

smal
04-03-2014, 09:03 AM
For researchers this is an opportunity to see the actual data. For the common users this is the possibility to analyze the data in third-party interpreter service (like YFull).

Rathna
04-03-2014, 03:45 PM
Of course all the data should be verified, because the mutations reported on FTDNA projects like "ht 35 FTDNA Project" aren't reliable. For instance about the SNPs reported as belonging only to Ware, looking at the Nochev's results in the BigY_SNPs txt, we have:
CTS11841 not tested
CTS6009 not tested
CTS7556 not tested
L112 not tested
L440 tested positive
PF5973 not tested
PF6443 tested positive
Y783.2 tested positive
thus none of these SNPs could be said belonging only to Ware.
The same I couldn't say about the SNPs belonging only to Nochev because I haven't received the Ware's data to compare with them.

Joe B
04-23-2014, 04:38 PM
Please delete post

brygian
04-23-2014, 06:31 PM
I am going to order CTS7822 and CTS9219 from YSEQ. In their shop I also find Z2110 - is this different from CTS7822? There are several more SNP tests when searching for CTS7822 - CTS7823, CTS9219, M4203 and M8817 all with the same mutation. What is the difference then?

Joe B
04-23-2014, 06:51 PM
I am going to order CTS7822 and CTS9219 from YSEQ. In their shop I also find Z2110 - is this different from CTS7822? There are several more SNP tests when searching for CTS7822 - CTS7823, CTS9219, M4203 and M8817 all with the same mutation. What is the difference then?
CTS7822/Z2110 are one in the same. Geno 2.0 uses only CTS7822. CTS7822/Z2110 and CTS9219 are the SNPs that carry the mutation you are looking for. The rest are the neighboring SNPs and are reported by YSeq. Ihad the same question.
http://www.isogg.org/wiki/Y-DNA_tools
Z2110 details http://ybrowse.isogg.org/cgi-bin/gb2/gbrowse_details/chrY?ref=ChrY;start=17684699;end=17684699;name=Z21 10;class=Sequence;feature_id=48293;db_id=chrY%3Ada tabase

brygian
04-26-2014, 06:15 PM
I ordered a number of SNPs under L23 according to smal's tree from YSEQ. According to Dr. Krahn, Z2107 and Z2108 are problematic:


Z2107 We have tried this marker before but it didn't work
Z2108 Centromeric GGAAT repeat (not recommended)

I guess they have tried Z2107 with Joe B? Can somebody explain what's the issue with Z2108 in simple English?

smal
04-26-2014, 06:39 PM
I guess they have tried Z2107 with Joe B? Can somebody explain what's the issue with Z2108 in simple English?

JoeB is Z2107-. You must be Z2108+, but everything is possible...

Joe B
04-26-2014, 07:25 PM
I ordered a number of SNPs under L23 according to smal's tree from YSEQ. According to Dr. Krahn, Z2107 and Z2108 are problematic:



I guess they have tried Z2107 with Joe B? Can somebody explain what's the issue with Z2108 in simple English?
Every testing method has it's limitations, that may be the case with a number of the Z-SNPs and Sanger sequencing. We know it works very well for Z2103, Z2105 and Z2110/CTS7822. Z2104 and Z2107 were very difficult to test. I'm testing Z2106 right now to see if that one is viable for testing. If not, we will know it and move on to other SNPs.

Here is a plain Joe explanation and of the "Centromeric GGAAT repeat" from Krahn. It has something to do with the centromere (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centromere) region and repeats that resemble other chromosomes. Z2108 makes sense for that as does Z2104. Not sure why he says that for Z2107 is too. http://www.anthrogenica.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=1507&d=1393468508 Part of this process of SNP discovery is finding out what SNPs a good for testing. This haplogroup has had a number of tough one to test like L277.

JoeB is Z2107-. You must be Z2108+, but everything is possible...
smal, byrgian's goal is to get CTS7822/Z2110 and CTS9219 on the ISOGG tree. Any guidence on that would be greatly appreciated. Initial response from ISOGG? to byrgian was too much testing.

brygian
04-26-2014, 07:46 PM
smal, byrgian's goal is to get CTS7822/Z2110 and CTS9219 on the ISOGG tree. Any guidence on that would be greatly appreciated. Initial response from ISOGG? to byrgian was too much testing.

My other goal is to verify that smal's tree is correct and if not to provide information to update it so that it is more accurate. There is already an issue with PF7585 - nobody with Geno 2.0 has been tested positive for it while all Z2105 from the 1000 genomes project are positive. I ordered everything from Z2103 below to CTS9219. Maybe I should order more SNPs - L150, L23, L478, PF6404, (and L51 and L277)?

Joe B
04-26-2014, 11:04 PM
My other goal is to verify that smal's tree is correct and if not to provide information to update it so that it is more accurate. There is already an issue with PF7585 - nobody with Geno 2.0 has been tested positive for it while all Z2105 from the 1000 genomes project are positive. I ordered everything from Z2103 below to CTS9219. Maybe I should order more SNPs - L150, L23, L478, PF6404, (and L51 and L277)?
My guess would be that testing your haplotype(you) for L150, L23, L478, PF6404, (and L51 and L277) would not add to what we already know, then I could be wrong. L150 is not very reliable for us any more. L277 and L584 has been tested by N115176 (https://www.familytreedna.com/public/Arcadia/default.aspx?section=ysnp)/N98739 or kostop who started the http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?1096-From-R-L150-to-R-CTS7822 thread. Hopefully we can get some more imput from kostop as it is always good.

Hi everyone

Last year I got my FTDNA deep clade results: R-L150 and I tested negative for L584.

If anyone could point out any sources where I could find out more about R-CTS7822 it would be greatly appreciated.

A bunch of new data came in this week. It may take smal a little time to work with the data for his next evolution of the R1b-Z2103 tree. His thoughts on what is needed to help with the tree will be a good guide.
Thanks for your testing.

EDIT: N112116 Nochev is CTS7822+, Z2103+, Z2105+, L277-, L584-, Big Y Thanks to Pillar of Fire!

smal
04-28-2014, 09:06 AM
YSEQ 39 = FTDNA 234905 (L277+) Z2104+ Z2107+

Joe B
04-28-2014, 05:12 PM
YSEQ 39 = FTDNA 234905 (L277+) Z2104+ Z2107+ Z2107+ for a R1b-L277+, now that's learning something new. With the Z2106- for L584 from the Big Y, the phylogeny of R1b-Z2103 is starting to become clearer.
Please congradulate 39 for the informative test result. I've started a new group at YSEQ.
Group R1b-L23_Z2103 & Subclades Alleles Browser (http://shop.yseq.net/group_browser.php)
39 and anybody else with relevent results at YSEQ should join.

Joe B
05-03-2014, 08:57 PM
Results for Z2106 are positive.
1808
The additional SNPs that were tested in the process are Z2357, YSC0000168 and PF4693, all negative.
Please join Group R1b-L23_Z2103 & Subclades at YSEQ and post your results for research.


Moderators, this is an "on purpose" double post to one on the L277.1 (http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?1722-R1b-L277-1*-R1b-M269-gt-L23-gt-L150-gt-Z2103-gt-Z2105-gt-L277-1*-2014&p=39101&viewfull=1#post39101) thread. Thanks, JB

Pillar_of_fire
05-06-2014, 04:51 AM
Just a side question - what is the test life of a YSeq sample - i.e. one sample can be used for how many SNP tests?

brygian
05-06-2014, 06:10 AM
You can use it for many SNP test as long as there is enough genetic material. Some times when a test fails new DNA extraction is required and if there isn't enough genetic material you may need to send a new sample. It's very similar to FTDNA.

brygian
05-17-2014, 05:48 PM
My first results at YSEQ are now available: Z2104+, Z2110+ and CTS9219+ all as expected. YSEQ has tested me for some neighboring SNPs for free all of which are negative. All results are available here: http://shop.yseq.net/group_alleles.php?gid=19 My ID is 285.

These guys at YSEQ are really fast:
Order date: Saturday 26 April, 2014
Kit shipped: Monday 28 April, 2014
Kit received: Friday 9 May, 2014
First results: Saturday 17 May, 2014

From order to first results in just three weeks including shipping and return.

Joe B
05-19-2014, 05:32 PM
My first results at YSEQ are now available: Z2104+, Z2110+ and CTS9219+ all as expected. YSEQ has tested me for some neighboring SNPs for free all of which are negative. All results are available here: http://shop.yseq.net/group_alleles.php?gid=19 My ID is 285.

These guys at YSEQ are really fast:
Order date: Saturday 26 April, 2014
Kit shipped: Monday 28 April, 2014
Kit received: Friday 9 May, 2014
First results: Saturday 17 May, 2014

From order to first results in just three weeks including shipping and return.
Thanks for your serious contribution to developing R1b-Z2103 phylogeny. Good solid results that ISOGG should like. YSEQ is very quick. Some difficult SNPs will take more time, it's worth it.

smal
05-19-2014, 05:54 PM
I have analysed the MasterVar reports for the PGP70 and PGP157 samples.

PGP70 (L584+) Z2107+ Z2106-
PGP157 (CTS7822+) Z2107+ Z2106+

brygian
05-19-2014, 06:44 PM
I have analysed the MasterVar reports for the PGP70 and PGP157 samples.

PGP70 (L584+) Z2107+ Z2106-
PGP157 (CTS7822+) Z2107+ Z2106+

And Joe B is Z2106+, Z2107-. So we have a person who is Z2106+, Z2107-, another one who is Z2106-, Z2107+ and a third who is Z2106+, Z2107+? How can that be possible? Maybe one of these two is not stable?

smal
05-19-2014, 07:30 PM
There are different possibilities:
1) Sequencing errors. It’s a good practice to confirm the NGS-based data by Sanger sequencing.
2) Back mutations. Again we can propose different models:
a. The Z2103+ ancestor was Z2107+. The Z2107- back mutation has happened in Joe’s line.
b. The Z2103+ ancestor was Z2106+. The Z2106- back mutation has happened in the L584+ line.
c. The Z2103+ ancestor was Z2107+ Z2106+. The independent Z2107- and Z2106- back mutations have happened in Joe’s and L584 lines, respectively.
To select between these models we need more tests. It’s necessary to check NGS data for the L584 and other lines by Sanger tests. We know that the L277 line is Z2107+, but Z2106 is unknown for this line. The results will help to understand which of models are correct.

Joe B
05-19-2014, 07:32 PM
I have analysed the MasterVar reports for the PGP70 and PGP157 samples.

PGP70 (L584+) Z2107+ Z2106-
PGP157 (CTS7822+) Z2107+ Z2106+
What do you think the reliability rating should be for Z2107 and Z2106? Nevermind.

There are different possibilities:
1) Sequencing errors. It’s a good practice to confirm the NGS-based data by Sanger sequencing.
2) Back mutations. Again we can propose different models:
a. The Z2103+ ancestor was Z2107+. The Z2107- back mutation has happened in Joe’s line.
b. The Z2103+ ancestor was Z2106+. The Z2106- back mutation has happened in the L584+ line.
c. The Z2103+ ancestor was Z2107+ Z2106+. The independent Z2107- and Z2106- back mutations have happened in Joe’s and L584 lines, respectively.
To select between these models we need more tests. It’s necessary to check NGS data for the L584 and other lines by Sanger tests. We know that the L277 line is Z2107+, but Z2106 is unknown for this line. The results will help to understand which of models are correct.smal, your work is right up there with the best of the best.

smal
05-19-2014, 07:50 PM
We have non-single results for Z2107 and Z2106 only in the CTS7822 and L584 lines. Within each of lines we observe stable data. So I don’t see problems of an reliability at the moment.

brygian
05-19-2014, 09:10 PM
There are different possibilities:
1) Sequencing errors. It’s a good practice to confirm the NGS-based data by Sanger sequencing.

When I tried ordering Z2107 at YSEQ, Astrid Krahn told me that they had tried that SNP before but it hadn't worked. I will try to convince her to test me for that SNP even if I have to pay a little bit more or even if they can't guarantee that the test will be successful.

Goldschlager
05-20-2014, 01:30 AM
smal wrote:To select between these models we need more tests. It’s necessary to check NGS data for the L584 and other lines by Sanger tests. We know that the L277 line is Z2107+, but Z2106 is unknown for this line. The results will help to understand which of models are correct.

Let me know if I could help with any test on L584

smal
05-20-2014, 06:27 AM
To clarify which of above models is correct the best way will be to test #39 (L277+ Z2107+) in YSEQ for Z2106. We could collect the required amount. Let me know if someone wants to help.

brygian
05-20-2014, 11:01 AM
To clarify which of above models is correct the best way will be to test #39 (L277+ Z2107+) in YSEQ for Z2106. We could collect the required amount. Let me know if someone wants to help.

How can I help?

smal
05-20-2014, 02:31 PM
How can I help?
Many thanks! I've replied through Private Message.

smal
05-20-2014, 05:42 PM
YSEQ #39 (FTDNA 234905) L277+ Z2104+ Z2107+ has ordered the Z2106 test in Yseq. Many thanks brygian for the donation.

smal
05-20-2014, 07:27 PM
Joe, I think it's a good idea for you to be tested for Z2109 and Z2108.

Joe B
05-20-2014, 08:04 PM
Joe, I think it's a good idea for you to be tested for Z2109 and Z2108.
Just so everybody doesn't think I'm a pushover, though I could be and consider Z2108 and Z2109 ordered, what's your thinking?
We should give serious consideration to what SNPs need to be tested to fill in any phylogenetic gaps while the price is right.

Father's Day Sale!
YSEQ has reduced the prices for all SNP markers to $25! This sale will be in effect until (including) Father's Day (June 15th 2014)
Astrid Krahn
I'm just amazed at the phylogenetic progress that is being made in our R1b-Z2103 haplogroup. ISOGG may have to rewrite our little part of the tree because of your work and testing. Thanks everyone!

smal
05-23-2014, 04:14 PM
I’ve wrote earlier:

If someone of L277+ wants to verify the new (http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?1727-R1b-phylogeny&p=26401&viewfull=1#post26401) topology of the Z2103 tree , he should order in YSEQ (http://shop.yseq.net/) some of the following possible SNP tests:

R1b-L277
Y:14054313 G->A
Y:16193434 A->T
Y: 16387123 C->T
Y: 17040958 G->A
Y: 23399063 G->T

These SNPs were founded by Rootsi et al. 2013 (http://www.nature.com/ncomms/2013/131217/ncomms3928/full/ncomms3928.html).

Now we have a response from YSEQ:


14054313 G->A named A366: 91.6% similar to ChrX:3275767..3276764. Not recommended at the moment.
16193434 A->T named A367: Primers can be designed if needed.
16387123 C->T named A368 (http://shop.yseq.net/product_info.php?products_id=1818): Primers have been designed and will be ordered from our supplier. Please check back at shop.yseq.net on Friday. Thanks.
17040958 G->A named A369: Primers can be designed if needed.
23399063 G->T named A370: Primers can be designed if needed.

Having this, YSEQ #39 (FTDNA 234905) L277+ Z2104+ Z2107+ has ordered the A368 test in Yseq. So, we are waiting for both Z2106 and A368 results for the L277 branch now.

Joe B
05-23-2014, 04:55 PM
Joe, I think it's a good idea for you to be tested for Z2109 and Z2108.
Z2108 and Z2107 are off the table for testing at YSEQ.

Their evaluation is that Z2108 is 96% similar to several other segments on chromosome Y and the SNP is not recommended.

Z2107 was just a huge pain to test for them. They had to redesign the primers four times and run the test four or five times for each sample. Then they had to manually score the results. The fact that the Kahn’s were able to accomplish the Z2107 test is a testament to their skill. It is not practical to test Z2107 anymore by Sanger method. YSEQ will stand behind the two Z2107 results we have from Sanger sequencing for ISOGG or to validate future testing. They have lots of lab notes.

My Z2109 (http://shop.yseq.net/product_info.php?products_id=1493) test is in the lab.

Edit: YSEQ just posted my CTS7763 result, negative.
85/257842 CTS7763 ChrY 17650438 17650438 A-


PF7585 Thanks byrgian
285 PF7585 ChrY 23084203 23084203 C+

brygian
05-23-2014, 06:29 PM
Some very interesting results from me at YSEQ: Z2105+, CTS9416+, PF7585+. As smal's tree suggests, I am positive for PF7585. But I have been tested for it with Geno 2.0 too - negative.

Geno 2.0:


PF7585 Y T T

YSEQ:


285 PF7585 ChrY 23084203 23084203 C+

I haven't found anybody on FTDNA positive for PF7585 so far which suggests that Geno 2.0 reports wrong results for this SNP. Any thoughts on this?

Joe B
05-23-2014, 06:54 PM
Some very interesting results from me at YSEQ: Z2105+, CTS9416+, PF7585+. As smal's tree suggests, I am positive for PF7585. But I have been tested for it with Geno 2.0 too - negative.

I haven't found anybody on FTDNA positive for PF7585 so far which suggests that Geno 2.0 reports wrong results for this SNP. Any thoughts on this? Thanks for having PF7585 sequenced. Could that erroneous Geno 2.0 result be the reason they have you listed as a R-P312? That may be worth sending a note to FTDNA. FTDNA pulled your SNP results from the project pages too.
Troublemaker:biggrin1:

brygian
05-23-2014, 06:59 PM
Thanks for having PF7585 sequenced. Could that erroneous Geno 2.0 result be the reason they have you listed as a R-P312? That may be worth sending a note to FTDNA. FTDNA pulled your SNP results from the project pages too.
Troublemaker:biggrin1:

I don't know where my Geno 2.0 data disappeared. They have listed me P312 based on Y-STR25. I have written three times to FTDNA's Helpdesk and haven't got any answer yet. FTDNA is so poor quality. I am really frustrated with them - everything is buggy, slow and expensive.

Joe B
05-23-2014, 07:08 PM
smal wrote:To select between these models we need more tests. It’s necessary to check NGS data for the L584 and other lines by Sanger tests. We know that the L277 line is Z2107+, but Z2106 is unknown for this line. The results will help to understand which of models are correct.

Let me know if I could help with any test on L584We have clades L277+, CTS7822+ and the unknown clade (me) that have tested Z2104+ by Sanger sequencing. Do we need a L584 to test Z2104 too?
Z2104 is another tough SNP that has to be run twice because nested PCR.

smal
05-23-2014, 07:40 PM
We have clades L277+, CTS7822+ and the unknown clade (me) that have tested Z2104+ by Sanger sequencing. Do we need a L584 to test Z2104 too?
Z2104 is another tough SNP that has to be run twice because nested PCR.

We have such sample - PGP70 L584+ Z2104+. Z2104 is on the same level as Z2103 at the moment.

Joe B
06-06-2014, 05:04 AM
Three results from YSEQ are in for Z2106. R1b-L277 is Z2106- and Z2107+. Could Z2107 be a part of the L277 branch? R1b-L584 is Z2106- and that verifies Goldschlager's Big Y.
R1b-Z2109* could be a new subclade.

Does this make sense? What should be changed? Hopefully, the bifurcation points for the R1b-Z2103 haplogroup are becoming more clear.
R1b-L584...........M269>L23>Z2103-Z2104-Z2105>L584 (Z2106-)
R1b-L277...........M269>L23>Z2103-Z2104-Z2105>Z2107>L277 (Z2106-)
R1b-Z2109.........M269>L23>Z2103-Z2104-Z2105>Z2106>Z2109 (Z2107-, Z2110-)
R1b-Z2110.........M269>L23>Z2103-Z2104-Z2105>Z2106>Z2109>Z2110 (CTS9219-)
R1b-CTS9219......M269>L23>Z2103-Z2104-Z2105>Z2106>Z2109>Z2110>CTS9219

Do we need a Sanger sequenced CTS9219- from a R1b-Z2110/CTS7822 haplotype for ISOGG?

Next subclade that needs verification by Sanger sequencing? R1b-CTS7763…M269>L23>Z2103-Z2104-Z2105>Z2106>CTS7763

Thanks everybody for testing.

brygian
06-06-2014, 06:06 AM
Just got my Z2106 and Z2109 - both positive.

smal
06-06-2014, 06:14 AM
Three results from YSEQ are in for Z2106. R1b-L277 is Z2106- and Z2107+. Could Z2107 be a part of the L277 branch? R1b-L584 is Z2106- and that verifies Goldschlager's Big Y.
R1b-Z2109* could be a new subclade.

Does this make sense? What should be changed? Hopefully, the bifurcation points for the R1b-Z2103 haplogroup are becoming more clear.
R1b-L584...........M269>L23>Z2103-Z2104-Z2105>L584 (Z2106-)
R1b-L277...........M269>L23>Z2103-Z2104-Z2105>Z2107>L277 (Z2106-)
R1b-Z2109.........M269>L23>Z2103-Z2104-Z2105>Z2106>Z2109 (Z2107-, Z2110-)
R1b-Z2110.........M269>L23>Z2103-Z2104-Z2105>Z2106>Z2109>Z2110 (CTS9219-)
R1b-CTS9219......M269>L23>Z2103-Z2104-Z2105>Z2106>Z2109>Z2110>CTS9219

Do we need a Sanger sequenced CTS9219- from a R1b-Z2110/CTS7822 haplotype for ISOGG?

Next subclade that needs verification by Sanger sequencing? R1b-CTS7763…M269>L23>Z2103-Z2104-Z2105>Z2106>CTS7763

Thanks everybody for testing.

I think the most probable tree will be:
R1b-L584...........M269>L23>Z2103-Z2104-Z2105, Z2107.1>L584 (Z2106-)
R1b-L277...........M269>L23>Z2103-Z2104-Z2105, Z2107.1>L277 (Z2106-)
R1b-CTS7763..... M269>L23>Z2103-Z2104-Z2105,Z2107.1>Z2106>CTS7763
R1b-Z2109.........M269>L23>Z2103-Z2104-Z2105,Z2107.1>Z2106>Z2109>(Z2110-) 1KGP-NA20866
R1b-Z2109.........M269>L23>Z2103-Z2104-Z2105,Z2107.1>Z2106>Z2109>Z2107.2! (Z2107- back mutation, Z2110-) FTDNA-257842
R1b-Z2110.........M269>L23>Z2103-Z2104-Z2105, Z2107.1>Z2106>Z2109>Z2110 (CTS9219-)
R1b-CTS9219......M269>L23>Z2103-Z2104-Z2105, Z2107.1>Z2106>Z2109>Z2110>CTS9219

This will be maximal parsimony tree, but it is correct only if we have fully correct data for Z2107. I am not sure that it is the case. The region of Z2107 is very difficult for sequencing and we can have the misalignment for NGS sequencing samples. But really this marker is not very important for tree.

Who is YSEQ #426 in FTDNA?

Joe B
06-06-2014, 07:02 AM
I think the most probable tree will be:
R1b-L584...........M269>L23>Z2103-Z2104-Z2105, Z2107.1>L584 (Z2106-)
R1b-L277...........M269>L23>Z2103-Z2104-Z2105, Z2107.1>L277 (Z2106-)
R1b-CTS7763......M269>L23>Z2103-Z2104-Z2105,Z2107.1>Z2106>CTS7763
R1b-Z2109.........M269>L23>Z2103-Z2104-Z2105,Z2107.1>Z2106>Z2109>(Z2110-) 1KGP-NA20866
R1b-Z2109.........M269>L23>Z2103-Z2104-Z2105,Z2107.1>Z2106>Z2109>Z2107.2! (Z2107- back mutation, Z2110-) FTDNA-257842
R1b-Z2110.........M269>L23>Z2103-Z2104-Z2105, Z2107.1>Z2106>Z2109>Z2110 (CTS9219-)
R1b-CTS9219......M269>L23>Z2103-Z2104-Z2105, Z2107.1>Z2106>Z2109>Z2110>CTS9219

This will be maximal parsimony tree, but it is correct only if we have fully correct data for Z2107. I am not sure that it is the case. The region of Z2107 is very difficult for sequencing and we can have the misalignment for NGS sequencing samples. But really this marker is not very important for tree.

Who is YSEQ #426 in FTDNA?
Agreed, Z2107 is not important phylogenetically and just an academic exercise at this point. YSEQ #424 is our good friend Goldschlager and he is Z2106-.
1KGP-NA20866 just became very important to R1b-Z2109*.
Looking forward to the new maximal parsimony R1b-Z2103 cladogram.

Without SNPs Z2107 and Z2108
R1b-L584...........M269>L23>Z2103-Z2104-Z2105>L584 (Z2106-)
R1b-L277...........M269>L23>Z2103-Z2104-Z2105>L277 (Z2106-)
R1b-CTS7763......M269>L23>Z2103-Z2104-Z2105>Z2106>CTS7763>(Z2110-)
R1b-Z2109.........M269>L23>Z2103-Z2104-Z2105>Z2106>Z2109>(Z2110-)
R1b-Z2110.........M269>L23>Z2103-Z2104-Z2105>Z2106>Z2109>Z2110 (CTS9219-)
R1b-CTS9219......M269>L23>Z2103-Z2104-Z2105>Z2106>Z2109>Z2110>CTS9219

smal
06-09-2014, 05:34 PM
#38 (FTDNA: 264013, Ysearch: 3K2U5) has joined to Group R1b-L23_Z2103 & Subclades at YSEQ. He is CTS7822+.

smal
06-13-2014, 08:41 AM
YSEQ #39 (FTDNA 234905) L277+ Z2104+ Z2107+ has ordered the A368 test in Yseq. So, we are waiting for both Z2106 and A368 results for the L277 branch now.

He was tested as A368 positive. So we have proved that NA20532 from 1KGP, 16133 Turkish Jew and 16886 Moroccan Jew from Rootsi at.al. 2013 belong to L277+ branch.
It is interesting that somebody of L277+ has sent his BigY data to YFull for an analysis. Does somebody know who is he?

Joe B
06-13-2014, 04:20 PM
He was tested as A368 positive. So we have proved that NA20532 from 1KGP, 16133 Turkish Jew and 16886 Moroccan Jew from Rootsi at.al. 2013 belong to L277+ branch.
It is interesting that somebody of L277+ has sent his BigY data to YFull for an analysis. Does somebody know who is he? Using SNP A368 as a bridge between a R1b-L277 haplotype and individuals in the Rootsi paper was masterful. Nice work smal! Please thank #39 for taking the test from all of us.
Did the L277+ person that submitted to YFull test for L277 as an individual SNP test or did BigY find L277? 236189 (R-V221) is a possiblity. No L277 results showing, but he looks like a L277+ from the STRs.

Joe B
07-16-2014, 04:53 PM
#38 (FTDNA: 264013, Ysearch: 3K2U5) has joined to Group R1b-L23_Z2103 & Subclades at YSEQ. He is CTS7822+.#38 (FTDNA: 264013, Ysearch: 3K2U5) has tested CTS9219+ at YSEQ. Thanks for testing!

Joe B
11-25-2014, 11:54 PM
What additional testing is needed to meet ISOGG requirements for establishing a R1b-Z2109* branch. Would Sanger sequencing Z2109 and Z2110/CTS7822 be enough on a 67 STR kit with no additional SNPs tested?
The $19 sale at YSEQ would be a good time to get these Sanger sequencing test done.

brygian
11-26-2014, 12:12 AM
I see we can list Z2106 and I am starting work on this. For Z2109 we need two positive and one negative results. Do we have a negative one?

Joe B
11-26-2014, 12:25 AM
I see we can list Z2106 and I am starting work on this. For Z2109 we need two positive and one negative results. Do we have a negative one?
No one that I'm aware of except for the L584 and L277 guys that did the Big Y and got Z2109- results. Would a R1b-L584 that is very well tested (Z2106- included) work for testing Z2109 and that negative result?

brygian
11-26-2014, 12:41 AM
No one that I'm aware of except for the L584 and L277 guys that did the Big Y and got Z2109- results. Would a R1b-L584 that is very well tested (Z2106- included) work for testing Z2109 and that negative result?

We need:

Z2103,Z2104,Z2105+; Z2106+
Z2103,Z2104,Z2105+; Z2106-

Z2106+; Z2109+
Z2106+; Z2109-

Z2109+; Z2110+
Z2109+; Z2110-

I think that we have all except for Z2106+, Z2109-. We will have to start with listing the quality variants of Z2103 since we have only one Z2104+, Z2106- and Z2104 is not on the ISOGG tree. It will be much easier if #39 or #424 tested Z2103 or Z2105 too.

rick_r
11-27-2014, 01:48 PM
Hello all ! i am following with interest the discussion here on the haplogroup. I have just taken the plunge for a Big Y test and I am waiting for results. I am more interested in the location of origin of the haplogroup, that is more relatable to most non-experts in the DNA field. I hope that this test will help my surname group get the answers they look for.

Of course, it may not be the answers they look for. Or me, for that matter, but whatever it is, there will be discussion.

brygian
11-27-2014, 02:15 PM
Hello Rick and welcome to the forum! What is your haplogroup and kit number?

rick_r
11-27-2014, 09:19 PM
Hello Rick and welcome to the forum! What is your haplogroup and kit number?

I have been here before as another user, but I forgot that I had an account. But, I am L23 as of right now, and my kit is 74013. Joe B will know exactly who I am, and I believe this will be an instructive experience for my surname group, as well as the HT35 project.

Joe B
11-28-2014, 03:45 AM
I have been here before as another user, but I forgot that I had an account. But, I am L23 as of right now, and my kit is 74013. Joe B will know exactly who I am, and I believe this will be an instructive experience for my surname group, as well as the HT35 project.
Hi Rick and thank you for ordering that Big Y test. It will be very informative whether you end up being part of this new R1b-Z2109 branch or adding to the rapid developement of the R1b-Z2110/CTS7822 clade. Recently the Blair (https://www.familytreedna.com/public/blair/default.aspx?section=yresults) surname project group 01 were found to be R1b-CTS9219 (R1b-L23>Z2103>Z2110/CTS7822>CTS9219) so it will be interesting to find out what your surname group is since both have Scottish roots.
Anthrogenica is a well run forum and you can find most of the discussion about the R1b1a2 (P312- U106-) DNA Project (https://www.familytreedna.com/public/ht35new/) in Forum: R1b Early Subclades (http://www.anthrogenica.com/forumdisplay.php?51-R1b-Early-Subclades). Thanks for testing and participating!

Pillar_of_fire
11-30-2014, 09:47 PM
Just some news on my side. A 3rd cousin of mine is under kit number 343579. He was tested only for 12 markers. Thanks to the Armenian project he is upgraded to 67. At the same time I ordered Z2103. In case he is positive and with the insight from the Y67 I will test him for SNP downsteam of Z2103. I do not expect him to be negative for Z2103. But where he will branch off after that no one knows....

smal
12-01-2014, 07:57 AM
Just some news on my side. A 3rd cousin of mine is under kit number 343579. He was tested only for 12 markers. Thanks to the Armenian project he is upgraded to 67. At the same time I ordered Z2103. In case he is positive and with the insight from the Y67 I will test him for SNP downsteam of Z2103. I do not expect him to be negative for Z2103. But where he will branch off after that no one knows....

There are only 12 markers, and it's easy to make a mistake. Perhaps he belongs to R-L277 branch.

Silesian
12-01-2014, 03:40 PM
There is only 12 markers, and it's easy to make a mistake. Perhaps he belongs to R-L277 branch.
Do you have any idea about origin of Han Chinese in Beijing[R-Z2106*] d:NA18645CHB ?
http://www.yfull.com/tree/R1b/

smal
12-01-2014, 04:44 PM
Do you have any idea about origin of Han Chinese in Beijing[R-Z2106*] d:NA18645CHB ?
http://www.yfull.com/tree/R1b/

NA18645 is not Z2106*, he is Z2106>CTS7763,CTS8966. We do not have his STRs and there are no ways to calculate TMRCA with the other CTS7763,CTS8966 men. We should wait for NGS data for the Z2106>CTS7763,CTS8966 branch. For example, his line can originate from Europe or West Asia.

Silesian
12-01-2014, 04:58 PM
NA18645 is not Z2106*, he is Z2106>CTS7763,CTS8966. We do not have his STRs and there are no ways to calculate TMRCA with the other CTS7763,CTS8966 men. We should wait for NGS data for the Z2106>CTS7763,CTS8966 branch. For example, his line can originate from Europe or West Asia.
Can you rule out that d:NA18645CHB and ysearch,id-UZKNA from Multan, Punjab, Pakistan are not from same area of Upper/Lower Caucasus as mtdna X2e?
UZKNA Multan, Punjab, Pakistan 12 24 14 10 11 14 12 12 12 14 13 30 15 9 9 11 11 25 15 18 29 14 15 16 18 10 11 19 23 15 12 12 11 11 13 24 10 14 12 13 10 30 24
5Y5EA Makhchesk, Ossetia, Russia [/I] 12 24 14 11 11 14 12 12 11 12 13 29 16 9 9 11 11 25 15 19 30 14 15 16 19 11 11 19 23 16 16 18 18 35 37 12 12 12 12 14
Genetic distance markers compared34/15
UZKNA Multan, Punjab, Pakistan R1b1a2a* Other - SMGF - -
5Y5EA Makhchesk, Ossetia, Russia Unknown Family Tree DNA 34 15
DYS-446 is 10 not common 14.
DYS-446 mutation rate dys446 dys446 0.00095
http://www.rogersdna.com/geddna/mutate.php

Abou
12-31-2014, 06:59 AM
Hi everyone,

I recently received my FGC results and I turned out to be R-CTS7822. The fine tuning exercise is still underway thanks to Smal. It seems that I am CTS9219- (although not explicitly mentioned in my SNP file) but CTS7556+ which Smal suspects to be a parallel mutation. I noticed that I am Z6132+ as for the Blair's, but also CTS6009+ as for the Ware's. This British connection is quite surprising given my Algerian origin.

Thanks

Joe B
12-31-2014, 06:12 PM
Hi everyone,

I recently received my FGC results and I turned out to be R-CTS7822. The fine tuning exercise is still underway thanks to Smal. It seems that I am CTS9219- (although not explicitly mentioned in my SNP file) but CTS7556+ which Smal suspects to be a parallel mutation. I noticed that I am Z6132+ as for the Blair's, but also CTS6009+ as for the Ware's. This British connection is quite surprising given my Algerian origin.

ThanksThanks for that information and getting your results to smal. Your results are another example of how R1b-M269 (U106- P312-) (https://www.familytreedna.com/public/ht35new) is by far the most interesting area of the R1b tree. We just don't know how long R1b-Z2103 subclades have been in the Isles, Western Europe or now Algeria. The R1b-Z2103 subclades are not typical for these areas. I suspect we will figure out something this New Year thanks to great NGS testing like yours.
Geolocke is taking a close look at this very interesting R1b-Z2110/CTS7822+, CTS9219- part of the tree in Britain with the Bristol Channel DNA (https://www.familytreedna.com/public/BristolChannelDNA/default.aspx) project.
http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?2762-New-quot-Bristol-Channel-DNA-quot-project-at-FTDNA-with-secondary-focus-on-CTS7822 Thanks Abou!

Joe B
01-01-2015, 10:12 PM
Here is a brief comparison of results from my Big Y NGS testing and Sanger sequencing from YSEQ. FTDNA on the right, YSEQ on the left.


Type SNPName Derived OnTree Reference Genotype Confidence Reference Genotype
Known SNP PF7575 ? No C ? Unknown Z2104/PF7575 T+
Known SNP Z2106 Yes(+) No G A Medium Z2106 A+
Known SNP CTS7340 ? No T ? Unknown Z2107/CTS7340 T-
Known SNP CTS1843 Yes(+) No T C High Z2109/CTS1843 C+
Known SNP CTS7822 No(-) Yes A A High Z2110 A-
Known SNP CTS7763 No(-) Yes A A High CTS7763 A-

The really interesting data will come from analysis of the 648.7 MB BAM file by smal. Hopefully this will result in the development of a R1b-Z2109 branch.
257842/85

Abou
01-02-2015, 10:41 AM
I just compared my SNP's with those of the ht35 tree. For an easy visualization, I framed the negative SNP's with red and the positive ones with green. As one can see most of my SNP's are negative below CTS7822 with the exception of PF2642+, CTS7556+, Z6132+, PF2642+. These results seem inconsistent with the current tree configuration. By that I mean, how can I be CTS9219- and yet Z6132+, PF2642+? Unless the last two are above the CTS9219 node (?).


3314

rick_r
02-09-2015, 09:21 PM
Here is a brief comparison of results from my Big Y NGS testing and Sanger sequencing from YSEQ. FTDNA on the right, YSEQ on the left.


Type SNPName Derived OnTree Reference Genotype Confidence Reference Genotype
Known SNP PF7575 ? No C ? Unknown Z2104/PF7575 T+
Known SNP Z2106 Yes(+) No G A Medium Z2106 A+
Known SNP CTS7340 ? No T ? Unknown Z2107/CTS7340 T-
Known SNP CTS1843 Yes(+) No T C High Z2109/CTS1843 C+
Known SNP CTS7822 No(-) Yes A A High Z2110 A-
Known SNP CTS7763 No(-) Yes A A High CTS7763 A-

The really interesting data will come from analysis of the 648.7 MB BAM file by smal. Hopefully this will result in the development of a R1b-Z2109 branch.
257842/85

So, basically then, your are CTS7763? Am I misreading this?

Joe B
02-10-2015, 05:38 AM
So, basically then, your are CTS7763? Am I misreading this?
Z2109/ZTS1843 positive with the mutation of T to C. CTS7763 is negative because SNP stayed A. If CTS7763 was positive, the mutation would be A to G.

rick_r
02-12-2015, 04:11 AM
Ah I see, the + signs are a positive trait.

razyn
02-12-2015, 11:44 AM
The new ancient DNA paper by David Reich et al has had about 700 comments in less than three days, and probably a couple dozen of them mention Z2103, as Joe B is well aware. Just to get that linked here, I think this new one has some dating info that might be of interest, or grist for your mill anyhow:
http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?3807-David-Reich-lecture-9-February-2015&p=68790&viewfull=1#post68790

Mis
08-26-2016, 09:11 AM
a little theory about Z2103
http://file.scirp.org/pdf/AA_2016082414320572.pdf

Joe B
08-26-2016, 04:57 PM
a little theory about Z2103
http://file.scirp.org/pdf/AA_2016082414320572.pdf
Thank you Mis. Besides the good information in the 2.2.1. R1b-M269, Downstream Subclades section and Figure 2., there is a lot of information for other haplogroups. I've reposted your post to Thread: STR Wars, GDs, TMRCA estimates, Variance, Mutation Rates & SNP counting. Hopefully it will generate a little discussion.
http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?828-STR-Wars-GDs-TMRCA-estimates-Variance-Mutation-Rates-amp-SNP-counting&p=182461&viewfull=1#post182461

Silesian
08-26-2016, 08:36 PM
a little theory about Z2103
http://file.scirp.org/pdf/AA_2016082414320572.pdf

The ideas of origin R1b-269, in direct contrast to the following paper-
Check out Figure 8.
Anahit HovhannisyanEmail author, Zaruhi Khachatryan, Marc Haber, Peter Hrechdakian, Tatiana Karafet, Pierre Zalloua and Levon Yepiskoposyan
https://investigativegenetics.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s13323-014-0015-6

Mis
09-09-2016, 08:26 AM
This is true R1b-GG400 = R1b-Z2103 ?

Mis
09-09-2016, 04:56 PM
Now I know that there is a third player

Mis
09-09-2016, 07:37 PM
Thank God because I thought that the Z2103 is falling from its pedestal.

Mher
10-01-2016, 04:25 PM
http://semargl.me/kit/16833/ this armenian have BIG but i dont see him on the tree of Sergey Malishev

Joe B
10-01-2016, 06:29 PM
http://semargl.me/kit/16833/ this armenian have BIG but i dont see him on the tree of Sergey Malishev
The SNPs listed look like National Geographic's Geno 2.0 tests results and not Big Y. Geno 2.0 didn't cover the R1b-Z2103 branch very well. That would explain the R1b-L23 haplogroup assignment. The STRs are what one would expect for a R1b-M269 > L23 > Z2103, Z2105 > Y4362, L277.

Mis
09-15-2018, 09:15 AM
https://static-content.springer.com/esm/art%3A10.1007%2Fs00438-017-1319-z/MediaObjects/438_2017_1319_MOESM2_ESM.xlsx

R1b-P25 ?

E899/15 Bodroghalom R1b-P25
E005/2016 Karos R1b-P25
E868/15 Kisgéres R1b-P25

Joe B
09-15-2018, 04:38 PM
https://static-content.springer.com/esm/art%3A10.1007%2Fs00438-017-1319-z/MediaObjects/438_2017_1319_MOESM2_ESM.xlsx

R1b-P25 ?

E899/15 Bodroghalom R1b-P25
E005/2016 Karos R1b-P25
E868/15 Kisgéres R1b-P25
I'm agree with you. That doesn't seem right from their STR markers. P25 is an unreliable SNP that used to define R1b if I'm not mistaken. One never knows without SNP testing. I would speculate Z2103. However, there are some U106 clades that have STRs that look like Z2103.

Mis
09-26-2018, 08:50 PM
Bashkir R-M269, 12, 24, 14, 10, 11-14, 12, 12, 12, 14, 13, 31

Little data.
The result is suggested by L23EE

asm
11-24-2019, 09:51 PM
Hello

After getting the results of Z-2103 SNP pack, my predicted subclade is R-PH4902.
What is the origin of this clade?

lgmayka
11-25-2019, 04:27 AM
After getting the results of Z-2103 SNP pack, my predicted subclade is R-PH4902.
What is the origin of this clade?
Here is YFull's R-PH4902 haplotree (https://yfull.com/tree/R-PH4902/).