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View Full Version : Project: R1b-L51 less P312 and U106: S1194, A8053, CTS4528/DF100, S14328, A8039



TigerMW
12-19-2020, 05:05 PM
The primary admin recently added me as an admin. I'm also an admin on the R1b All Subclades and R1b Basal (Z2103 et al) Subclades projects. We were running out of room to adequately detail subgroups for R1b All and R1b Basal. Douglas kindly considered to join forces on the R1b-L51 but P312- U106- subclades. I think S1194 and A8053 are updated now. S1194, of course, includes A8039 and CTS4528/DF100 (which also includes S14328).

You can use the FTDNA tree as a roadmap. I should a have subgroup for every branch and they should appear in the same sequence as they do on the haplotree.
https://www.familytreedna.com/public/y-dna-haplotree/R;name=R-S1194
https://www.familytreedna.com/public/y-dna-haplotree/R;name=R-A8053

I color coded the subgroups so CTS4528 subgroups are shades of green, A8039 are of blue and A8053 are of violet. This is a great way to look at ancient clade mates, or people on your branching but exceeding the FTDNA matching thresholds.

I haven't figured out what to do the brother to P310 under R1b-L51, R1b-PF7589. I think there is only one of those guys in the project anyway.

I use the "bread crumb of trail" SNP path method of displaying haplogroups. Examples of that are these early L51 subclades:

R1b-L51>PF7589
R1b-L51>P310>L151>S1194
R1b-L51>P310>L151>A8053
Not included in the project but other large parts of 151:
R1b-L51>P310>L151>P312
R1b-L51>P310>L151>U106

I haven't touched PF7589 yet. It is L51+ but L151-. All of the others above are L151+. Not sure what to do. I can probably easily handle it in the Basal project along with Z2103 and the non M269 branches.

Here is the Y Classic display:
https://www.familytreedna.com/public/DF100-CTS4528-L11-P310-L151-P311?iframe=yresults

The project name doesn't show up properly in the R section of Y haplogroups at FTDNA so I will have to contact FTDNA and figure that out. You can join this project most easily by searching for the term DF100 in the surnames/terms search box.

This is another difficult project to title so it needs some thinking on the titling and URL, if that can be updated.

MitchellSince1893
12-19-2020, 06:31 PM
Iíve always found PF7589 interesting due to where it is/isnít currently found.

RBHeadge
12-19-2020, 09:03 PM
I hadn't realized the PF7589 could join that project. The legacy description reads, "This project is a special focus project for the SNPs of S1194 and below CTS4528.& A8039." so I never joined. If I noticed it was L51 I would have joined.

Do you still want PF7598 to join? If so, maybe L51 (xU106,XP312) could be added to the title i.e. "S1194 and subclades of L51 (xU106,xP312)". If not, maybe it should be "S1194 and Subclades of P310 (xU106,xP312)"?

If the former, can the legacy PF7589 members in the R1b-basal clades project be auto-copied into the L51 project? Ditto for the S1194 and A8053 members?

AlfonsoVIII
12-20-2020, 10:50 PM
Hello, I'm A8051 under A8053 and I don't know anything about A8053. Can someone tell me about its origin etc?

TigerMW
12-22-2020, 01:59 AM
I hadn't realized the PF7589 could join that project. The legacy description reads, "This project is a special focus project for the SNPs of S1194 and below CTS4528.& A8039." so I never joined. If I noticed it was L51 I would have joined.

Do you still want PF7598 to join? If so, maybe L51 (xU106,XP312) could be added to the title i.e. "S1194 and subclades of L51 (xU106,xP312)". If not, maybe it should be "S1194 and Subclades of P310 (xU106,xP312)"?

If the former, can the legacy PF7589 members in the R1b-basal clades project be auto-copied into the L51 project? Ditto for the S1194 and A8053 members?

The main thing is to join the R1b All and Basal projects and I'll figure out where to get you.

...umm. I am sorry for the rambling.. I think PF7589 should stay in the R1b Basal project. I forgot I already did the work of restructuring and detailing them there. It looks like there this is about the largest group of PF789 guys around. It looks like this project has about 20-25% more PF7589 than the Yfull tree.

This makes this Y Classic project display a good place to see "ancient clade mates" for PF7589. Let me clarify and retract my ambiguity. Stay in the R1b Basal project. That's the right place for you..

Go to the R1b Basal project. Do a find/search or scroll down to subgroup "10000" (ten thousand). You'll see the R-PF789 guys there in orange broken out just like the haplotree is structured.
https://www.familytreedna.com/public/R1bBasalSubclades?iframe=yresults

P.S. a note to all: Some of these projects have several administrators. Some won't respond. Some will only respond if they disagree. I'm trying to say I walk on egg shells sometimes. Some eggs break but I try to minimize that so I don't usually shoot for major project merge/split kinds of actions which affect a lot of people.
My goals are to clean up these R1b projects and make sure everyone has a place to see detailed subgroups by branch in the same sequence as the haplotree.
Back to the breakage - I have been planning on asking FTDNA for help on straightening out L51 (less P312 and U106). Do you guys think I should try to make this S1194 & A8503 (both L151) project the "everything else and kitchen sink" for R-L51. That's probably logical but would cause more disruption.
DSM?
Don't worry about final titling and descriptions. I can probably fix the descriptions quickly.
Do we want to pull L51 out of "basal" completely so PF7589 guys live with the L151 (S1194, A8503, P310*, L151* [xU106 xP312]) guys in a relatively small haplogroup project?
If you are PF7589+, please say so. What you think as a group is most important.

TigerMW
12-22-2020, 02:22 AM
Hello, I'm A8051 under A8053 and I don't know anything about A8053. Can someone tell me about its origin etc?

R-A8053 is the little brother to big, big brothers P312 and U106 and middle brother S1194. The R1b-L151 Most Recent Common Ancestor (MRCA) is their father so to speak.

You can see that here.
https://www.familytreedna.com/public/y-dna-haplotree/R;name=R-L151

There are 16 descendant branches under R-A8053 currently. If you go to the R-A8053 line to the right and click on the three dots you can get a Country Report.
40% are from Scotland
24% are from Ireland
16% are from England or the UK
4% (just 1) are from Germany
4% (just 1) are from Portugal
The rest report unknown or the US

I don't know of any ancient DNA with A8503+ but I haven't looked.

My guess is its origin is very close to the residence of R1b-L151's MRCA. This is a hot topic. It could be the Netherlands or Switzerland. It could be Poland or even the Ukraine. This is what the hullabaloo about Single Grave and Corded Ware X, and Dutch or East Bell Beakers is all about.

You can see you R-A8053 ancient clade mates at the project. Just scroll down or search on 80010 (or A8503). Your groups are in violet.
https://www.familytreedna.com/public/DF100-CTS4528-L11-P310-L151-P311?iframe=yresults

Please invite your matches at Y111 and Y67 to the project. We have a few people missing to fill out the 17 branches. Even if they haven't SNP tested I have a next step of clustering people into additional subgroups by predicted branch.

TigerMW
12-22-2020, 02:40 AM
You can see you R-A8053 ancient clade mates at the project. Just scroll down or search on 80010 (or A8503). Your groups are in violet.
https://www.familytreedna.com/public/DF100-CTS4528-L11-P310-L151-P311?iframe=yresults

AlfonsoVIII, FTDNA is using FGC37100 as the lead SNP for the subclade that A8051 also marks. If you click on the "by Variant" view you can see A8051 over to the right of FGC37100 on the haplotree.
https://www.familytreedna.com/public/y-dna-haplotree/R;name=R-FGC37100
This is where the Scotland and Ireland folks are, but they are always the heaviest DNA testers.

RBHeadge
12-22-2020, 04:47 AM
The main thing is to join the R1b All and Basal projects and I'll figure out where to get you.

This makes this Y Classic project display a good place to see "ancient clade mates" for PF7589. Let me clarify and retract my ambiguity. Stay in the R1b Basal project. That's the right place for you..

I joined both projects ~April '19 after I got my Y700 results back. I have no plans to leave either group. I'm active on both projects and it shouldn't be a stretch to figure out who I am there.


Go to the R1b Basal project. Do a find/search or scroll down to subgroup "10000" (ten thousand). You'll see the R-PF789 guys there in orange broken out just like the haplotree is structured.
I saw it last week after the update. I like it.


Back to the breakage - I have been planning on asking FTDNA for help on straightening out L51 (less P312 and U106). Do you guys think I should try to make this S1194 & A8503 (both L151) project the "everything else and kitchen sink" for R-L51. That's probably logical but would cause more disruption.
...
Do we want to pull L51 out of "basal" completely so PF7589 guys live with the L151 (S1194, A8503, P310*, L151* [xU106 xP312]) guys in a relatively small haplogroup project?
If you are PF7589+, please say so. What you think as a group is most important.

PF7589, S1194, A8503 et al are already in the basal clades. For consistency and precedent, I think we can stay there. Much like how all us basal guys are also in the R1b-all too. We're in our own green circle straddling basal and u106/p312 on your R1b descendant tree.

It'd be nice to would like to small haplogroup project for PF7589. Could allow for more focused research and discussion. But there aren't that many of us*, probably not enough to make a dedicated project, so it would make sense to group us with S1194 et al. It helps that the "major" nodal SNPs: PF7589/CTS6889, S1194, and A8503 are all contemporaries and (on a continental scale) have a similar modern distribution. If we go that route, I'll be the first new PF7589 to join.

So my vote is to keep us in basal, but steer people to also join the L51(xU106xP312) project in the future. I don't think it will cause much disruption. We can add links in the R1b-all and R1b-basal descriptions for people to join the lower level projects.

*Less than 100 BigY takers. The number might be double that if you include all the 37,67,111 STR tests with DYS426=13. And only a fraction of those will ever join a project anyway.


I don't know what "DSM" means.

Amerismed
12-22-2020, 07:10 AM
I think PF7589 should stay in the R1b Basal project. And that I'm active on both projects and it shouldn't be a stretch to figure out who I am there.

AlfonsoVIII
12-22-2020, 11:44 AM
AlfonsoVIII, FTDNA is using FGC37100 as the lead SNP for the subclade that A8051 also marks. If you click on the "by Variant" view you can see A8051 over to the right of FGC37100 on the haplotree.
https://www.familytreedna.com/public/y-dna-haplotree/R;name=R-FGC37100
This is where the Scotland and Ireland folks are, but they are always the heaviest DNA testers.

Thank you so much! I can see that it's an haplogroup associated with surnames of Norman, Anglo-Saxon and German origin. This, together with the fact that A8051 appears to have been found at the Tollense site, makes me think that it may be an haplogroup related in some way to the Germanic peoples.

TigerMW
12-28-2020, 07:27 PM
I don't know what "DSM" means.
Thanks for your feedback.

DSM is a poster on this forum.

TigerMW
12-28-2020, 07:33 PM
I think PF7589 should stay in the R1b Basal project. And that I'm active on both projects and it shouldn't be a stretch to figure out who I am there.

Just to be clear, I'm not removing anyone from the Basal project unless they are P312+ or U106+ and should not be there in the first place.

The question is where to invest my time and direct people. As of right now I have PF7589 broken out in detail in the R1b Basal and Early Subclades. I don't have S1194 broken out in detail in that project but do in DSM's S1194-DF100/CTS4528-A8053 project. I don't want to duplicate that in the Basal project unless it is part of some consolidation. S1194 is actually a nice size subclade for a project.

To be honest, I don't understand the drivers behind the formation of some of these projects. I'm just trying to make some sense out of what is out there.

RBHeadge
12-31-2020, 01:09 AM
The question is where to invest my time and direct people. As of right now I have PF7589 broken out in detail in the R1b Basal and Early Subclades. I don't have S1194 broken out in detail in that project but do in DSM's S1194-DF100/CTS4528-A8053 project. I don't want to duplicate that in the Basal project unless it is part of some consolidation. S1194 is actually a nice size subclade for a project.

That makes sense. In that case, my vote is to only have the PF7589 detailed breakdown in the Basal subclades project; and likewise only keep the detailed S1194 breakout in the S1194 project.

TigerMW
03-01-2021, 11:06 PM
..
The question is where to invest my time and direct people. As of right now I have PF7589 broken out in detail in the R1b Basal and Early Subclades. I don't have S1194 broken out in detail in that project but do in DSM's S1194-DF100/CTS4528-A8053 project. I don't want to duplicate that in the Basal project unless it is part of some consolidation. S1194 is actually a nice size subclade for a project.

To be honest, I don't understand the drivers behind the formation of some of these projects. I'm just trying to make some sense out of what is out there.
I have an effort to get to a single R-S1194 project but it's been quite slow going. I went back to the R1b Basal Subclades project this weekend and finished the job on these L51+ P312- U106- branches. There is now a detailed subgroup for every branch available in the project. I also drew a draft R-S1194 overview chart. It helps some time to have the top down descendants view. You can see it below the Z2103 chart here.
https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/r-1b-basal-subclades/about/results


In that case, my vote is to only have the PF7589 detailed breakdown in the Basal subclades project That should be done already, but I suppose I should work on an overview descendants tree for those guys too. ... then on to V88, etc.