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Finn
12-20-2020, 04:14 PM
Welkom!

Bespiegelingen over onderwerpen die spelen in Anthrogenica in, zo mogelijk, het Nederlands.

Reflections on topics that play a role in Anthrogenica in the Dutch language.... if possible....

monedula
12-20-2020, 04:27 PM
Gezellig :beerchug:

Kellebel
12-20-2020, 04:48 PM
Leuk!!

Persoonlijk ben ik vooral geÔnteresseerd in het relatief grote genetische verschil tussen Noord en Zuid NL. Ik ben echt gefascineerd door het verschil tussen mijn Hollandse vader en Limburgse moeder. Hooguit een paar honderd kilometer van elkaar vandaan IRL, maar de genetische afstand lijkt wel veel groter dan dat. Dus bij deze een lekker egoÔstisch oproepje: mocht iemand hier theorieŽn over hebben, dan hoor (of beter gezegd: lees) ik dat heel graag!

:behindsofa:

anglesqueville
12-20-2020, 05:32 PM
:thumb:

Goed gedaan vrienden! Ik zal van tijd tot tijd proberen een beetje in het Nederlands te schrijven. Ik wist in het verleden een beetje van deze mooie taal, maar ik vergat veel. Sinds enkele maanden probeer ik mijn kennis van het Russisch opnieuw te activeren. Het is pijnlijk om oud te worden ...

Finn
12-20-2020, 05:35 PM
Leuk!!

Persoonlijk ben ik vooral geÔnteresseerd in het relatief grote genetische verschil tussen Noord en Zuid NL. Ik ben echt gefascineerd door het verschil tussen mijn Hollandse vader en Limburgse moeder. Hooguit een paar honderd kilometer van elkaar vandaan IRL, maar de genetische afstand lijkt wel veel groter dan dat. Dus bij deze een lekker egoÔstisch oproepje: mocht iemand hier theorieŽn over hebben, dan hoor (of beter gezegd: lees) ik dat heel graag!

:behindsofa:

Niets egoÔstisch aan als je het mij vraagt Kellebel!
Gedeelde smart is in ieder geval halve smart want het heeft ook mijn interesse.
Het simpele antwoord is dat boven de rivieren meer verbonden is met de Noord-Europese/ Duitse laagvlakte, als het ware aan het voeteneinde ervan.
Beneden de rivieren is in hoge mate verbonden met BelgiŽ, Noord-Frankrijk en het Rijnland, weinig tot geen belemmeringen daartussen. Vergeet ook niet de Romeinse limes!
Ik denk dat het ook in stand is gehouden door de (oorspronkelijke) geloofsverschillen, dus verschillende circuits? Dit heeft conserverend gewerkt in Noord en Zuid.
Op het compliceerde antwoord moeten we onze tanden (hier) nog maar even op stuk bijten ;)

Wel fijn dat ik zo snel kan typen en wat bloemrijker kan antwoorden dan voor mij zo 1,2,3 in het Engels mogelijk is!

Finn
12-20-2020, 05:42 PM
:thumb:

Goed gedaan vrienden! Ik zal van tijd tot tijd proberen een beetje in het Nederlands te schrijven. Ik wist in het verleden een beetje van deze mooie taal, maar ik vergat veel. Sinds enkele maanden probeer ik mijn kennis van het Russisch opnieuw te activeren. Het is pijnlijk om oud te worden ...

Niet slecht, of zoals ze in Groningen, met een voorkeur voor understatements zeggen: 't kon minder! :biggrin1: Je schrijft foutlozer dan ik!

En voor jou met een 1/8 (?) Fries bloed moet het Nederlands toch gemakkelijker zijn dan het Russisch.....

monedula
12-20-2020, 07:16 PM
In eerste instantie was ik verrast door mijn Y hapotype en kwam na wat zoeken, nog niet zo lang geleden, hier terecht. Helaas was de informatie over mij hapotype niet echt bevredigend, maar er was wel een nieuwe interesse gewekt. Sindsdien natuurlijk ook ontdekt dat er een heel scala aan calculators is voor het nog veel complexere, maar minstens zo interessante autosomale deel. Er valt nog een hoop te leren en te ontdekken.

CopperAxe
12-20-2020, 07:35 PM
Niets egoÔstisch aan als je het mij vraagt Kellebel!
Gedeelde smart is in ieder geval halve smart want het heeft ook mijn interesse.
Het simpele antwoord is dat boven de rivieren meer verbonden is met de Noord-Europese/ Duitse laagvlakte, als het ware aan het voeteneinde ervan.
Beneden de rivieren is in hoge mate verbonden met BelgiŽ, Noord-Frankrijk en het Rijnland, weinig tot geen belemmeringen daartussen. Vergeet ook niet de Romeinse limes!
Ik denk dat het ook in stand is gehouden door de (oorspronkelijke) geloofsverschillen, dus verschillende circuits? Dit heeft conserverend gewerkt in Noord en Zuid.
Op het compliceerde antwoord moeten we onze tanden (hier) nog maar even op stuk bijten ;)

Wel fijn dat ik zo snel kan typen en wat bloemrijker kan antwoorden dan voor mij zo 1,2,3 in het Engels mogelijk is!


https://www.academia.edu/5507638/Archaeology_from_the_Dutch_twilight_zone?email_wor k_card=view-paper

Figure 6 hier laat heel duidelijk zien wat je bedoeld.

Grappig dat deze thread er nu is, ik zat gister naar wat taal-specifieke paginas en vroeg me af waarom de kikkermensen niet hun eigen versie hebben.

CopperAxe
12-20-2020, 07:45 PM
Je hebt natuurlijk ook wat andere potentiŽle factoren buiten bronstijd handelsnetwerken, zoals depopulatie en herpopulatie door de friezen en saksen in verschillende regios van het land, genetisch substraat van Keltische volkeren onder de rijn etc. die het verschil tussen noord en zuid zouden versterken.

Finn
12-20-2020, 07:57 PM
In eerste instantie was ik verrast door mijn Y hapotype en kwam na wat zoeken, nog niet zo lang geleden, hier terecht. Helaas was de informatie over mij hapotype niet echt bevredigend, maar er was wel een nieuwe interesse gewekt. Sindsdien natuurlijk ook ontdekt dat er een heel scala aan calculators is voor het nog veel complexere, maar minstens zo interessante autosomale deel. Er valt nog een hoop te leren en te ontdekken.

Geldt voor mij in feite hetzelfde, E-V22 is vrij uniek in Nederland, en al helemaal in het Noorden....Wat heb je over T1a2b gevonden?

Finn
12-20-2020, 08:09 PM
https://www.academia.edu/5507638/Archaeology_from_the_Dutch_twilight_zone?email_wor k_card=view-paper

Figure 6 hier laat heel duidelijk zien wat je bedoeld.

Grappig dat deze thread er nu is, ik zat gister naar wat taal-specifieke paginas en vroeg me af waarom de kikkermensen niet hun eigen versie hebben.

Hahaha kunnen we hier nog wat kwaken....:biggrin1:

Inderdaad die figuur is er zo een, net als deze gemaakt bij afscheid van Bronstijd expert Jay Butler.

https://www.mupload.nl/img/311izsxxv.01.35.png

En inderdaad dat zijn potentie factoren, vergeet niet dat de Friezen vrijwel allemaal zijn vertrokken in de 3e/4 eeuw, sommige onderzoekers beweren zelfs dat het enige geluid toen niet van kwakende kikkers was maar van schreeuwende meeuwen.....verlaten dus.

De herpopulatie van Friesland was er een van de 'Anglo-Saksische' instroom, breed te zien als "Nerthus-volk" (afkomst Sleeswijk-Holstein, Mecklenburg-Vorpommern)

monedula
12-20-2020, 09:07 PM
Het gekke aan T is dat het wijdverspreid is maar toch vrij weinig voorkomt. In Europa is Ibiza de topper ( ~15%), in Nederland ~1%. Waarschijnlijk ontstaan in West-AziŽ en vandaar verspreid over Europa. In een paper (Mendez et.al) staat de reden hiervoor:

"We posit that the current distribution of haplogroup T chromosomes was influenced by multiple demographic processes, including the spread of agriculture from the Near East, the Assyrian and Babylonian exiles, and later dispersals associated with the Jewish diaspora." (excuus voor het engels :))

CopperAxe
12-20-2020, 09:26 PM
Het gekke aan T is dat het wijdverspreid is maar toch vrij weinig voorkomt. In Europa is Ibiza de topper ( ~15%), in Nederland ~1%. Waarschijnlijk ontstaan in West-AziŽ en vandaar verspreid over Europa. In een paper (Mendez et.al) staat de reden hiervoor:

"We posit that the current distribution of haplogroup T chromosomes was influenced by multiple demographic processes, including the spread of agriculture from the Near East, the Assyrian and Babylonian exiles, and later dispersals associated with the Jewish diaspora." (excuus voor het engels :))

De Varna man had haplogroep T toch?

Weet je iets qua distributie over je specifieke subclade?

monedula
12-20-2020, 10:16 PM
De Varna man had haplogroep T toch?

Weet je iets qua distributie over je specifieke subclade?

Varna man is inderdaad T, iets van 6000bc in Bulgarije.

Verder zitten er in mijn specifiekere subclade een mix van oosters( Irak/Egypte) en Europees ( Italiaan een 1 van de Vikingen samples)

Adamm
12-20-2020, 11:14 PM
Geldt voor mij in feite hetzelfde, E-V22 is vrij uniek in Nederland, en al helemaal in het Noorden....Wat heb je over T1a2b gevonden?

E-V22 is zeker zeldzaam in Nederland, zelfs in Noordwest Afrika is het zeldzaam en vrij uniek. Hoe denk jij dat het terechtgekomen is in Nederland? Via de Romeinen (gevalletje zoals de bekende Egyptische gladiator die in York gevonden was?).

https://www.nationalgeographic.com/news/2016/01/160119-gladiator-headless-skeletons-dna/

Finn
12-21-2020, 06:54 AM
E-V22 is zeker zeldzaam in Nederland, zelfs in Noordwest Afrika is het zeldzaam en vrij uniek. Hoe denk jij dat het terechtgekomen is in Nederland? Via de Romeinen (gevalletje zoals de bekende Egyptische gladiator die in York gevonden was?).

https://www.nationalgeographic.com/news/2016/01/160119-gladiator-headless-skeletons-dna/

Scherp!

Ik dacht ook in die richting, maar ja bewijs het maar eens ;)

https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?20751-Aethiops-milites-The-genetic-trace-of-Roman-Egyptian-soldiers-in-North-West-Europe

Finn
12-23-2020, 01:13 PM
Leuk!!

Persoonlijk ben ik vooral geÔnteresseerd in het relatief grote genetische verschil tussen Noord en Zuid NL. Ik ben echt gefascineerd door het verschil tussen mijn Hollandse vader en Limburgse moeder. Hooguit een paar honderd kilometer van elkaar vandaan IRL, maar de genetische afstand lijkt wel veel groter dan dat. Dus bij deze een lekker egoÔstisch oproepje: mocht iemand hier theorieŽn over hebben, dan hoor (of beter gezegd: lees) ik dat heel graag!

:behindsofa:

Een onderdeel van die verschillen zou kunnen zijn de verschillen die zijn ontstaan in de migratieperiode c.q. de vroege middeleeuwen. Wellicht een obsessie van mij ;)

Maar ik denk echt dat de 'genetische blauwdruk' van Nederland in hoge mate is bepaald door de invloeden die toen plaats hebben gevonden en die grotendeels, niet voor niets Dark Ages, behoorlijk schemerig zijn, hier en daar een verdwaalde bron, zelfs uit het Oost-Romeinse rijk (met een hoog van horen zeggen gehalte).

In feite ging het om warlords met een groep vechtersbazen om zich heen verzameld, loyaal tot aan letterlijk de dood. Dat noemen wij dan elite migratie ;) Maar goed dat zijn wel de mensen die de in de vroege middeleeuwen de lakens gaan uitdelen, ook in Nederland.

Ik denk wel dat we die verschillende invloeden terug kunnen zien in de modellen rondom G25 en GvsC......

Zo dacht Huijbregts lange tijd dat ik welhaast (recente) Zweedse voorouders 'moest' hebben. Dat is niet het geval, maar ik denk wel dat invloeden vanuit de Warnen (https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warnen), voor een Noordoost Germaanse impuls hebben gezorgd.

Maar uiteraard ter discussie!

Finn
12-24-2020, 09:19 AM
Niet slecht van my heritage:

Globaal
https://www.mupload.nl/img/mf724wkzs.13.00.png

Specifiek
https://www.mupload.nl/img/4mbemsq.05.55.png

Geldt dit ook voor jou?

Pylsteen
12-24-2020, 11:15 AM
Leuk, de genetische groepen bij MyHeritage; Ik krijg Rotterdam, Zuid-Holland/Utrecht (ziet er Groene Hart-achtig uit), Utrecht/Gelderland, Noord-Brabant (met name Meijerij), Friesland, Nederland/IndonesiŽ, Nederland/Duitsland/Engeland (joods), en Cariben (Jamaica, Trinidad etc). Dit zijn - behalve de laatste - inderdaad afstammingsgebieden, wellicht is de laatste verbonden via de joodse diaspora.

Kellebel
12-24-2020, 04:15 PM
Ik heb nog geen tijd om inhoudelijk te reageren tot na de Kerst, sorry. Maar tot die tijd, hier zijn onze genetische groepen:

41991

41992

41993

41994

Ik had eigenlijk wel Frankrijk en Duitsland voor mijn vader verwacht, maar noppes. Geen Frankrijk zou nog kunnen komen doordat zijn oma uit een Franse gemeenschap kwam die al generaties lang in Zuid Holland zit. En misschien is zijn Duits toch te ver weg.

Ook geen Waals voor mijn moeder - al komt het meeste Waals van een voorouder die al in de maak was voordat z'n moeder getrouwd was met z'n "vader" en waarvan de vaderlijke lijn nog niet bevestigd is via matches (in tegendeel, de matches via zijn jongere zus zijn opmerkelijk een stuk kleiner dan men zou verwachten), dus wie weet is daar een goede reden voor..

De Nederlandse groepen zijn wel belachelijk on point, voor ons allemaal!

Finn
12-24-2020, 04:40 PM
probeer die van mijn ouders te uploaden....maar volgens mij is het druk ;)

Pylsteen
12-24-2020, 07:04 PM
probeer die van mijn ouders te uploaden....maar volgens mij is het druk ;)

De enige reden dat ik bij MH zit is vanwege de matches, misschien kom ik ze wel tegen (denk t overigens niet, want Groningen/Drenthe heb ik vrij weinig mee)

Kellebel
12-25-2020, 03:26 AM
probeer die van mijn ouders te uploaden....maar volgens mij is het druk ;)

Ben benieuwd! Mijn vader's overgrootmoeder was een mix van voornamelijk Gronings en Nedersaksisch met wat Drents en Fries hier en daar. Zij zal genetisch waarschijnlijk erg dichtbij jullie hebben gezeten!


De enige reden dat ik bij MH zit is vanwege de matches, misschien kom ik ze wel tegen (denk t overigens niet, want Groningen/Drenthe heb ik vrij weinig mee)

Voor mij zijn de matches ook hetgeen wat mij actief houdt op MyHeritage. De meerderheid van mijn bevestigde takken heb ik te danken aan hen!

monedula
12-25-2020, 12:59 PM
Wist niet dat je ook gewoon kunt uploaden naar Myheritage.. ook even proberen

Finn
12-26-2020, 11:13 AM
Wist niet dat je ook gewoon kunt uploaden naar Myheritage.. ook even proberen

ja en hij blijft uploaden mmmmm

monedula
12-26-2020, 12:24 PM
ja en hij blijft uploaden mmmmm

In bewerking - resultaten verwacht binnen 5-7 dagen

Kellebel
12-27-2020, 01:31 AM
Niets egoÔstisch aan als je het mij vraagt Kellebel!
Gedeelde smart is in ieder geval halve smart want het heeft ook mijn interesse.
Het simpele antwoord is dat boven de rivieren meer verbonden is met de Noord-Europese/ Duitse laagvlakte, als het ware aan het voeteneinde ervan.
Beneden de rivieren is in hoge mate verbonden met BelgiŽ, Noord-Frankrijk en het Rijnland, weinig tot geen belemmeringen daartussen. Vergeet ook niet de Romeinse limes!
Ik denk dat het ook in stand is gehouden door de (oorspronkelijke) geloofsverschillen, dus verschillende circuits? Dit heeft conserverend gewerkt in Noord en Zuid.
Op het compliceerde antwoord moeten we onze tanden (hier) nog maar even op stuk bijten ;)

Wel fijn dat ik zo snel kan typen en wat bloemrijker kan antwoorden dan voor mij zo 1,2,3 in het Engels mogelijk is!

Hihi gelukkig, nu voel ik me een ietsiepietsie minder schuldig. :lol: Ik denk inderdaad dat een heel groot deel hier vandaan zou kunnen komen. Ook als ik kijk in onze eigen stambomen - mijn voorouders uit het noorden van NL hebben vaak connecties met de Nedersaksen en mijn Limburgse voorouders uit het Duitse Rijn-gebied, BelgiŽ en Noord-Frankrijk. (Wat opmerkelijk is, ondanks het niet echt wat bijdraagt aan dit specifieke onderwerp, maar wat ik toch gezegd wil hebben, is dat er bij een hoop zuiderlijke families bepaalde trends te merken zijn. Zo heeft mijn moeder's vaderlijke lijn vooral banden met de Franstalige gebieden op verschillende lijnen en mijn moeder's moederlijke lijn vooral met het Duitse Rijn-gebied, ook op verschillende lijnen. Een hoop andere Limburgse families hebben diezelfde ťťnzijdige banden - ůf ze hebben Belgische/Franse invloeden van meerdere kanten, ůf ze hebben Duitse invloeden van meerdere kanten, maar ik zie ze niet vaak samenkomen in dezelfde stamboom.)

Wat betreft de Romeinse limes, heb ik zo mijn twijfels eerlijk gezegd - zeker als het gaat om Nederland. De meeste gebieden zijn na de val van het Romeinse Rijk (vrijwel) leeggelopen en overspoeld door Germaanse stammen. Zo zie je ook een wellicht miniem, maar desalniettemin merkbaar verschil tussen Nederlanders en Belgen als je kijkt naar mogelijke(!) Romeinse invloed in het DNA, waarbij Nederlanders over het algemeen niks scoren, maar Belgen minimaal rond de 5%, vergelijkbaar met een hoop Fransen.


https://www.academia.edu/5507638/Archaeology_from_the_Dutch_twilight_zone?email_wor k_card=view-paper

Figure 6 hier laat heel duidelijk zien wat je bedoeld.

Grappig dat deze thread er nu is, ik zat gister naar wat taal-specifieke paginas en vroeg me af waarom de kikkermensen niet hun eigen versie hebben.

Oh dit is wel interessant, dankje! Ik vraag me echt af waarom wij nooit zulke stof hebben behandeld op school. Maar zelf even op onderzoek gaan aankomende dagen/weken. Enne, kikkermensen... really? :(


Je hebt natuurlijk ook wat andere potentiŽle factoren buiten bronstijd handelsnetwerken, zoals depopulatie en herpopulatie door de friezen en saksen in verschillende regios van het land, genetisch substraat van Keltische volkeren onder de rijn etc. die het verschil tussen noord en zuid zouden versterken.

Hier heb ik ook erg veel over nagedacht de afgelopen tijd: de depopulatie van bepaalde gebieden die vervolgens herbevolkt werden. Zo had ik in eerste instantie niet verwacht dat de vroeg-Middeleeuwse Duitsers uit Beieren nog zo noordelijk waren genetisch gezien, in vergelijking met de Zuid-Duitsers van nu.. Nooit rekening te hebben gehouden met herbevolking, wat ik dus eigenlijk heb onderschat wat dat betreft. Het heeft me aan het denken gezet. We nemen vaak maar aan dat de mensen die hier voor ons waren, automatisch onze voorouders zijn. Je zult me zeker niet horen zeggen dat dit niet het geval is, maar wellicht is dit in werkelijkheid wel een stukje minder dan we zouden denken.


Een onderdeel van die verschillen zou kunnen zijn de verschillen die zijn ontstaan in de migratieperiode c.q. de vroege middeleeuwen. Wellicht een obsessie van mij ;)

Maar ik denk echt dat de 'genetische blauwdruk' van Nederland in hoge mate is bepaald door de invloeden die toen plaats hebben gevonden en die grotendeels, niet voor niets Dark Ages, behoorlijk schemerig zijn, hier en daar een verdwaalde bron, zelfs uit het Oost-Romeinse rijk (met een hoog van horen zeggen gehalte).

In feite ging het om warlords met een groep vechtersbazen om zich heen verzameld, loyaal tot aan letterlijk de dood. Dat noemen wij dan elite migratie ;) Maar goed dat zijn wel de mensen die de in de vroege middeleeuwen de lakens gaan uitdelen, ook in Nederland.

Ik denk wel dat we die verschillende invloeden terug kunnen zien in de modellen rondom G25 en GvsC......

Zo dacht Huijbregts lange tijd dat ik welhaast (recente) Zweedse voorouders 'moest' hebben. Dat is niet het geval, maar ik denk wel dat invloeden vanuit de Warnen (https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warnen), voor een Noordoost Germaanse impuls hebben gezorgd.

Maar uiteraard ter discussie!

Ja, ik heb dus ook het gevoel dat een hoop verschillen op z'n minst versterkt, maar wellicht ook (deels) ontstaan zijn door wat recentere migraties idd. Een hele hoop plaatsen, zoniet de meesten, zijn ook in die tijd gesticht. Al moet ik bekennen, dat de tijd van de Middeleeuwen niet bepaald mijn forte is: daar werd nauwelijks (eigenlijk helemaal gťťn) aandacht aan besteed in mijn schooltijd en vanaf die tijd tot de recente opbloeiing van mijn interesse in het historische aspect van DNA heb ik me met totaal andere dingen bezig gehouden. :lol:



Verder vraag ik me af in hoeverre de IJzertijd invloed heeft gehad in het Zuiden en dan met name de La TŤne Cultuur. Jammer genoeg zijn de recente Franse samples uit die tijd van zodanig lage kwaliteit, dat die niet serieus genomen kunnen worden. Hopelijk komt er wat meer en vooral wat beters vanuit die kant in de nabije toekomst.



(Wauw, ik moet echt nog even wennen aan het discussiŽren in het Nederlands hoor.)

Finn
12-27-2020, 11:59 AM
Hihi gelukkig, nu voel ik me een ietsiepietsie minder schuldig. :lol: Ik denk inderdaad dat een heel groot deel hier vandaan zou kunnen komen. Ook als ik kijk in onze eigen stambomen - mijn voorouders uit het noorden van NL hebben vaak connecties met de Nedersaksen en mijn Limburgse voorouders uit het Duitse Rijn-gebied, BelgiŽ en Noord-Frankrijk. (Wat opmerkelijk is, ondanks het niet echt wat bijdraagt aan dit specifieke onderwerp, maar wat ik toch gezegd wil hebben, is dat er bij een hoop zuiderlijke families bepaalde trends te merken zijn. Zo heeft mijn moeder's vaderlijke lijn vooral banden met de Franstalige gebieden op verschillende lijnen en mijn moeder's moederlijke lijn vooral met het Duitse Rijn-gebied, ook op verschillende lijnen. Een hoop andere Limburgse families hebben diezelfde ťťnzijdige banden - ůf ze hebben Belgische/Franse invloeden van meerdere kanten, ůf ze hebben Duitse invloeden van meerdere kanten, maar ik zie ze niet vaak samenkomen in dezelfde stamboom.)

Wat betreft de Romeinse limes, heb ik zo mijn twijfels eerlijk gezegd - zeker als het gaat om Nederland. De meeste gebieden zijn na de val van het Romeinse Rijk (vrijwel) leeggelopen en overspoeld door Germaanse stammen. Zo zie je ook een wellicht miniem, maar desalniettemin merkbaar verschil tussen Nederlanders en Belgen als je kijkt naar mogelijke(!) Romeinse invloed in het DNA, waarbij Nederlanders over het algemeen niks scoren, maar Belgen minimaal rond de 5%, vergelijkbaar met een hoop Fransen.



Oh dit is wel interessant, dankje! Ik vraag me echt af waarom wij nooit zulke stof hebben behandeld op school. Maar zelf even op onderzoek gaan aankomende dagen/weken. Enne, kikkermensen... really? :(



Hier heb ik ook erg veel over nagedacht de afgelopen tijd: de depopulatie van bepaalde gebieden die vervolgens herbevolkt werden. Zo had ik in eerste instantie niet verwacht dat de vroeg-Middeleeuwse Duitsers uit Beieren nog zo noordelijk waren genetisch gezien, in vergelijking met de Zuid-Duitsers van nu.. Nooit rekening te hebben gehouden met herbevolking, wat ik dus eigenlijk heb onderschat wat dat betreft. Het heeft me aan het denken gezet. We nemen vaak maar aan dat de mensen die hier voor ons waren, automatisch onze voorouders zijn. Je zult me zeker niet horen zeggen dat dit niet het geval is, maar wellicht is dit in werkelijkheid wel een stukje minder dan we zouden denken.



Ja, ik heb dus ook het gevoel dat een hoop verschillen op z'n minst versterkt, maar wellicht ook (deels) ontstaan zijn door wat recentere migraties idd. Een hele hoop plaatsen, zoniet de meesten, zijn ook in die tijd gesticht. Al moet ik bekennen, dat de tijd van de Middeleeuwen niet bepaald mijn forte is: daar werd nauwelijks (eigenlijk helemaal gťťn) aandacht aan besteed in mijn schooltijd en vanaf die tijd tot de recente opbloeiing van mijn interesse in het historische aspect van DNA heb ik me met totaal andere dingen bezig gehouden. :lol:



Verder vraag ik me af in hoeverre de IJzertijd invloed heeft gehad in het Zuiden en dan met name de La TŤne Cultuur. Jammer genoeg zijn de recente Franse samples uit die tijd van zodanig lage kwaliteit, dat die niet serieus genomen kunnen worden. Hopelijk komt er wat meer en vooral wat beters vanuit die kant in de nabije toekomst.



(Wauw, ik moet echt nog even wennen aan het discussiŽren in het Nederlands hoor.)

Ja dat heb ik ook wel, sommige termen zoals Bell Beaker zitten nu zo in mijn hoofd dat ik even na moet denken hoe het in het Nederlands zo ongeveer zat.

Voor wat betreft de invloed vanuit Noord-Duitsland in het Noorden. Die influx van de Chauken was er in Groningen en Noord-Drenthe er waarschijnlijk al in de Romeinse periode.
https://www.rug.nl/research/portal/files/41443811/Chauken_2017.pdf

Daar kwamen dus later de stammen bij die Noordoostelijk van de Elbe zaten, alhoewel het heel goed mogelijk is dat het hier om elite migratie gaat, dat klink chique maar zijn in de migratieperiode in hoge mate krijgsheren met aanhang, waarschijnlijk samen gesteld uit "slayers" ;) (ok goed Nederlands houwdegens/vechtjassen). Die gingen in de periode de lakens uitdelen niet alleen in Noord Nederland maar dat gaat tot en met Noord-Frankrijk en Zuid-Duitsland, Spanje en Noord-Italie.

Ik vermoed dat deze krijgsheren en hun aanhang, waaronder dus de oudste Friese en Frankische koningen, een hogere overlevingskansen hadden en betere 'reproductie-kansen'. Dan krijg je min of meer hetzelfde als in IJsland waar van de genenpool 70% Noors gerelateerd is en 30% van de Britse Eilanden. Maar goed dat is daar ook versterkt door een eiland effect.

De migratieperiode was ook bij mij een onderbelicht iets. Ook tijdens mijn studie geschiedenis is het niet uitgebreid aan de orde geweest. Het is, vanwege sporadische bronnen, inderdaad 'dark ages' tegelijk is het wel een periode die in veel opzichten een blauwdruk is geweest. Een fascinerende combinatie. Denk er over na een blog over te beginnen....(goed voornemen ;)

Finn
12-27-2020, 12:13 PM
In bewerking - resultaten verwacht binnen 5-7 dagen

omg ik heb het dus inmiddels tig keer proberen up te loaden, hoop geen system overload ( ik denk dan met de ervaring van gedmatch in het achterhoofd, moet dat 5 a 7 dagen duren voor nieuwe samples er bij kunnen?)

Finn
12-27-2020, 12:44 PM
Ben benieuwd! Mijn vader's overgrootmoeder was een mix van voornamelijk Gronings en Nedersaksisch met wat Drents en Fries hier en daar. Zij zal genetisch waarschijnlijk erg dichtbij jullie hebben gezeten!
Voor mij zijn de matches ook hetgeen wat mij actief houdt op MyHeritage. De meerderheid van mijn bevestigde takken heb ik te danken aan hen!

Mij moeder is eigenlijk alleen maar Hondsrug Drents dat is ook wel een specifiek stukje Drente, ik dacht altijd dat daar het Trechterbekervolk c.q. de Hunnebedbouwers nog een mogelijk naeffect hebben. Als je het ergens kan verwachten dan is het daar, je struikelt over de hunnebedden daar....Maar of dat echt reŽel is, de aantallen waren waarschijnlijk klein. En waarschijnlijk overspoeld door de invloeden daarna.

Mijn vader heeft deels de achtergrond van de Groninger VeenkoloniŽn en Oldambt, de Veenkoloniale tak was oorspronkelijk zwaar doopsgezind (Ukke Wallisten (https://gameo.org/index.php?title=Uckowallists)) dat had een hoog Fries-Groninger Ommeland gehalte. Later werden ze, een misstap was in die kringen al snel gemaakt, ;) Franciscaans katholiek, daar kwam vanaf de 18e eeuw veel katholieke immigranten uit Emsland en Westfalen bij. Zijn Oldambtster (noordoost Groninger klei) achtergrond is een mengeling van nazaten van landarbeiders (deels afkomstig uit meer protestantse delen van Noord Duitsland) en van de eigenerfden, de 'karls' van de vroege middeleeuwen.....zit vermoedelijk een hoog chauken en angelsaksisch element in.

monedula
12-27-2020, 02:21 PM
omg ik heb het dus inmiddels tig keer proberen up te loaden, hoop geen system overload ( ik denk dan met de ervaring van gedmatch in het achterhoofd, moet dat 5 a 7 dagen duren voor nieuwe samples er bij kunnen?)

Verweking is klaar...Ik heb mijn WGS data omgezet naar het 23andme format, die file pakte hij direct. nu nog even bedenken of ik 35 euro wil neertellen voor dit model. Wel grappig 4000 duizend "neven en nichten"....

monedula
12-27-2020, 02:26 PM
Hihi gelukkig, nu voel ik me een ietsiepietsie minder schuldig. :lol: Ik denk inderdaad dat een heel groot deel hier vandaan zou kunnen komen. Ook als ik kijk in onze eigen stambomen - mijn voorouders uit het noorden van NL hebben vaak connecties met de Nedersaksen en mijn Limburgse voorouders uit het Duitse Rijn-gebied, BelgiŽ en Noord-Frankrijk. (Wat opmerkelijk is, ondanks het niet echt wat bijdraagt aan dit specifieke onderwerp, maar wat ik toch gezegd wil hebben, is dat er bij een hoop zuiderlijke families bepaalde trends te merken zijn. Zo heeft mijn moeder's vaderlijke lijn vooral banden met de Franstalige gebieden op verschillende lijnen en mijn moeder's moederlijke lijn vooral met het Duitse Rijn-gebied, ook op verschillende lijnen. Een hoop andere Limburgse families hebben diezelfde ťťnzijdige banden - ůf ze hebben Belgische/Franse invloeden van meerdere kanten, ůf ze hebben Duitse invloeden van meerdere kanten, maar ik zie ze niet vaak samenkomen in dezelfde stamboom.)

Wat betreft de Romeinse limes, heb ik zo mijn twijfels eerlijk gezegd - zeker als het gaat om Nederland. De meeste gebieden zijn na de val van het Romeinse Rijk (vrijwel) leeggelopen en overspoeld door Germaanse stammen. Zo zie je ook een wellicht miniem, maar desalniettemin merkbaar verschil tussen Nederlanders en Belgen als je kijkt naar mogelijke(!) Romeinse invloed in het DNA, waarbij Nederlanders over het algemeen niks scoren, maar Belgen minimaal rond de 5%, vergelijkbaar met een hoop Fransen.



Oh dit is wel interessant, dankje! Ik vraag me echt af waarom wij nooit zulke stof hebben behandeld op school. Maar zelf even op onderzoek gaan aankomende dagen/weken. Enne, kikkermensen... really? :(



Hier heb ik ook erg veel over nagedacht de afgelopen tijd: de depopulatie van bepaalde gebieden die vervolgens herbevolkt werden. Zo had ik in eerste instantie niet verwacht dat de vroeg-Middeleeuwse Duitsers uit Beieren nog zo noordelijk waren genetisch gezien, in vergelijking met de Zuid-Duitsers van nu.. Nooit rekening te hebben gehouden met herbevolking, wat ik dus eigenlijk heb onderschat wat dat betreft. Het heeft me aan het denken gezet. We nemen vaak maar aan dat de mensen die hier voor ons waren, automatisch onze voorouders zijn. Je zult me zeker niet horen zeggen dat dit niet het geval is, maar wellicht is dit in werkelijkheid wel een stukje minder dan we zouden denken.



Ja, ik heb dus ook het gevoel dat een hoop verschillen op z'n minst versterkt, maar wellicht ook (deels) ontstaan zijn door wat recentere migraties idd. Een hele hoop plaatsen, zoniet de meesten, zijn ook in die tijd gesticht. Al moet ik bekennen, dat de tijd van de Middeleeuwen niet bepaald mijn forte is: daar werd nauwelijks (eigenlijk helemaal gťťn) aandacht aan besteed in mijn schooltijd en vanaf die tijd tot de recente opbloeiing van mijn interesse in het historische aspect van DNA heb ik me met totaal andere dingen bezig gehouden. :lol:



Verder vraag ik me af in hoeverre de IJzertijd invloed heeft gehad in het Zuiden en dan met name de La TŤne Cultuur. Jammer genoeg zijn de recente Franse samples uit die tijd van zodanig lage kwaliteit, dat die niet serieus genomen kunnen worden. Hopelijk komt er wat meer en vooral wat beters vanuit die kant in de nabije toekomst.



(Wauw, ik moet echt nog even wennen aan het discussiŽren in het Nederlands hoor.)

Heb ook wel gelezen dat het zuidwesten (zeg Den Haag/Rotterdam/ zuid-hollandse eilanden). Na de Romeinse tijd ontvolkt is geraakt, waarschijnlijk door stijgende zeespiegel. Door wat voor volkeren het daarna weer is bevolkt is mij niet heel duidelijk.

Finn
12-29-2020, 11:33 AM
Heb ook wel gelezen dat het zuidwesten (zeg Den Haag/Rotterdam/ zuid-hollandse eilanden). Na de Romeinse tijd ontvolkt is geraakt, waarschijnlijk door stijgende zeespiegel. Door wat voor volkeren het daarna weer is bevolkt is mij niet heel duidelijk.

Myheritage heeft een mooie legpuzzel gemaakt van het DNA landschap ook die van Nederland. Door een koppeling met stambomen hebben zijn ze er in mijn ogen goed in geslaagd een clustering te maken. Dat is een behoorlijke haarkloverij, de verschillen zijn klein en her en der gooit al dan niet beschikbaarheid van genealogische bronnen toch wel wat roet in het eten.
Ik ben er voor Noord-Nederland (Groningen, Friesland en Drenthe)i ingedoken (hotspots en periodisering).

Ik heb de volgende impressies bij de clusters:
*Nederland (Friesland):Friesland en Groningen, zwaartepunt exact provinciegrens Friesland ( 'endogamie' Friesland)
*Nederland (Groningen en Friesland): De Friese Wouden; extensie in met name Westerkwartier (West-Groningen) vanaf 1800 tot wo2,
*Nederland (Groningen, Drenthe en Friesland) en Duitsland (Nedersaksen): 'Friso-Saxon', Groningen, Friesland, Noord-Drenthe, Oost-Friesland, zwaartepunt Oostelijk Groningen: Woldoldambt/Oude-VeenkoloniŽn
*Noordoost-Nederland en Duitsland (Nedersaksen): Noordoost Drenthe/Bentheim/Emsland (Meppen)
*Nederland (Drenthe, Overijssel en Friesland), Drents-Friese Wouden, Zuidwest Drenthe, Kop van Overijssel e.o.

Graag jullie op en aanmerkingen? En geef graag de handschoen door voor de andere delen van Nederland!

Finn
12-29-2020, 02:38 PM
Heb ook wel gelezen dat het zuidwesten (zeg Den Haag/Rotterdam/ zuid-hollandse eilanden). Na de Romeinse tijd ontvolkt is geraakt, waarschijnlijk door stijgende zeespiegel. Door wat voor volkeren het daarna weer is bevolkt is mij niet heel duidelijk.

Wat ik fascinerend vind is dat het friso-saksische cluster een duidelijke link lijkt te hebben met het Zuid-Hollandse/Den Haag/ Rotterdam. Is dat omdat de cluster zo dicht bij elkaar liggen? Of is er in weerwil van wat de archeologen de laatste jaren horen namelijk hoegenaamd geen angel-saksiche invloed in Zuid-Holland?

Neem deze quote:

Een kort steek- en hakwapen (‘sax’), afkomstig uit een wapengraf dat naast het bijzondere boorgraf van Solleveld lag. Het is aangelegd in de tweede helft van de 6de eeuw. (Afdeling Archeologie, gemeente Den Haag/Olav Odť)

Moet dat wellicht worden herzien?

monedula
12-30-2020, 08:29 PM
Wat ik fascinerend vind is dat het friso-saksische cluster een duidelijke link lijkt te hebben met het Zuid-Hollandse/Den Haag/ Rotterdam. Is dat omdat de cluster zo dicht bij elkaar liggen? Of is er in weerwil van wat de archeologen de laatste jaren horen namelijk hoegenaamd geen angel-saksiche invloed in Zuid-Holland?

Neem deze quote:


Moet dat wellicht worden herzien?


Ik vond dit wel een interessant stukje uit dit document https://studenttheses.universiteitleiden.nl/access/item%3A2604996/view :

"Een deel van deze emigranten (Angelen, Saksen en Juten) vonden Noord-Nederland ver genoeg en vormden een bevolkingsgroep dat omschreven kan worden als de ĎNieuwe Friezení (Van Ginkel en Verhart 2009, 219). De indringers zullen niet met open
armen ontvangen zijn maar het is waarschijnlijk dat uiteindelijk het kleine aantal in het gebied nog aanwezige autochtone inwoners in de samenleving opgenomen zijn. Er zijn aanwijzingen dat zij zelfs geparticipeerd hebben aan de grootschalige invasie van GrootBrittanniŽ (Jansen 1978, 43). Het desolate West-Nederlandse kustgebied moet in de 5e en de 6e eeuw vanuit Friesland, of rechtstreeks vanuit noordelijker gelegen gebieden, gekoloniseerd zijn en een Angelsaksische pot uit de 5e eeuw die in een waterput in
Forum Hadriani is aangetroffen duidt op een vroege kolonisatie van de Rijn- en Maasmonding (De Jonge 2006, 180; 183)."

In de vijfde eeuw was Zuid-Holland dus onderdeel van de het Nieuw Friesland en zou misschien die friso-saksisch clustering met Zuid-Holland, zoals jij dat beschreef, kunnen verklaren.
Het is een hoop speculeren, maar erg interessant.

Pylsteen
01-04-2021, 12:50 PM
Attachments lukken niet helemaal, dan maar even via postimage,
drie van de regio's (1900-1950) die ik krijg, vlnr Noord-Brabant, Zuid-Holland/Utrecht, Utrecht/Gelderland.

https://i.postimg.cc/sfc9jJT6/MH-Ned-regio.png

- de groep Noord-Brabant lijkt met name de grenzen van de oude meierij van Den Bosch te volgen,
- de groep Utrecht/Zuid-Holland is wel interessant, er is hier lange tijd Friese bewoning geweest, vervolgens was er de ontginning van het veengebied in het groene hart; van mijn eigen verleden valt op dat er vrijwel geen huwelijken waren met mensen uit het Amstelland of het Gooi (misschien is dit ander bij andere families).
- de groep Utrecht/Gelderland lijkt met name aanwezig op de Utrechtse heuvelrug, Veluwe en Nederbetuwe.

mijn belangrijkste voorouderlijke groep is het gebied rondom Tiel, waarvan ik denk dat het precies tussen deze clusters in ligt.

Kellebel
01-04-2021, 06:05 PM
Attachments lukken niet helemaal, dan maar even via postimage,
drie van de regio's (1900-1950) die ik krijg, vlnr Noord-Brabant, Zuid-Holland/Utrecht, Utrecht/Gelderland.

https://i.postimg.cc/sfc9jJT6/MH-Ned-regio.png

- de groep Noord-Brabant lijkt met name de grenzen van de oude meierij van Den Bosch te volgen,
- de groep Utrecht/Zuid-Holland is wel interessant, er is hier lange tijd Friese bewoning geweest, vervolgens was er de ontginning van het veengebied in het groene hart; van mijn eigen verleden valt op dat er vrijwel geen huwelijken waren met mensen uit het Amstelland of het Gooi (misschien is dit ander bij andere families).
- de groep Utrecht/Gelderland lijkt met name aanwezig op de Utrechtse heuvelrug, Veluwe en Nederbetuwe.

mijn belangrijkste voorouderlijke groep is het gebied rondom Tiel, waarvan ik denk dat het precies tussen deze clusters in ligt.

Bij mij ook niet, inderdaad. Wel een hoop tussen Zuid-Holland, Noord-Brabant, Utrecht en Gelderland en in mindere mate zelfs de andere provincies en het buitenland, maar geen Noord-Hollands te bekennen tot mijn overgrootmoeder om de hoek kwam kijken.

monedula
01-11-2021, 07:29 PM
omg ik heb het dus inmiddels tig keer proberen up te loaden, hoop geen system overload ( ik denk dan met de ervaring van gedmatch in het achterhoofd, moet dat 5 a 7 dagen duren voor nieuwe samples er bij kunnen?)


Toch maar gedaan.

Onverwacht resultaat qua etniciteit:
81,3% Scandinavisch
17,6% Noord- en West-Europees
1,1% Engels

Genetische groepen is wel spot on.. Zuid-West Holland en Rotterdam

monedula
01-11-2021, 07:34 PM
Attachments lukken niet helemaal, dan maar even via postimage,
drie van de regio's (1900-1950) die ik krijg, vlnr Noord-Brabant, Zuid-Holland/Utrecht, Utrecht/Gelderland.

https://i.postimg.cc/sfc9jJT6/MH-Ned-regio.png

- de groep Noord-Brabant lijkt met name de grenzen van de oude meierij van Den Bosch te volgen,
- de groep Utrecht/Zuid-Holland is wel interessant, er is hier lange tijd Friese bewoning geweest, vervolgens was er de ontginning van het veengebied in het groene hart; van mijn eigen verleden valt op dat er vrijwel geen huwelijken waren met mensen uit het Amstelland of het Gooi (misschien is dit ander bij andere families).
- de groep Utrecht/Gelderland lijkt met name aanwezig op de Utrechtse heuvelrug, Veluwe en Nederbetuwe.

mijn belangrijkste voorouderlijke groep is het gebied rondom Tiel, waarvan ik denk dat het precies tussen deze clusters in ligt.

Mooie figuren, waar komt dit vandaan ?

Pylsteen
01-14-2021, 10:40 AM
Mooie figuren, waar komt dit vandaan ?

Je kunt op de groepen klikken, daar staan ook veel voorkomende plaatsnamen bij; de periode 1900-1950 geeft de meest duidelijke vormen; je kunt ook groepen bekijken die je niet zelf hebt.

Pylsteen
01-16-2021, 04:43 PM
Ik zat wat te spelen met de MH regio's in paint; een kaart zou er ongeveer zo uit zien; namen
heb ik er zelf bijgedacht; de regio Zuid-Holland-Zuid hebben ze niet, maar is vermoedelijk
het gebied waar de groep "Rotterdam" het meest aanwezig is.

https://i.postimg.cc/1zpQW3XB/MH-regio-1.png

Elske
01-18-2021, 08:26 PM
Hallo!

Ik ben een nieuw forum-lid en ik heb vandaag mijn eerste post geplaatst over mijn DNA resultaten van MyHeritage en GEDmatch!

Wat leuk dat er ook een Nederlands hoekje is! :)

Groetjes Elske

Finn
01-20-2021, 09:14 PM
De resultaten van mijn ouders, ingesteld op hoog:

Vader
42722
Moeder
42723


Resultaten hoog en midden

Vader
42722

Moeder
42724

Opvallende zaken
* Noord-Nederland Groningen, Drenthe, Friesland en Nedersaksen komt bij beide er hoog uit (volgens mij is dit core Groningen-Noordoost Drenthe)
* Noordoost Nederland komt alleen bij mijn vader naar voren, terwijl ik dit bij mijn moeder had verwacht de zwaartepunt daarvan ligt namelijk in de zandstreken (alhoewel de VeenkoloniŽn daarin ook hoog scoren)
* Het 'Hollandse' cluster komt ook bij beide naar voren, dat moet een oud migratiepatroon zijn, want zowel bij mijn vader als bij mijn moeder komen in de genealogie geen 'Hollanders' voor.
*Noord-Duitsland (Polen, TsjechiŽ), ook bij beide, lijkt me bij nadere beschouwing Noord-Duitse invloed van de vroege middeleeuwen tot in latere jaren.
*Bij mijn moeder popt Midwest-Amerika hoog op (bij mijn vader niet), blijkbaar zit het in migratiebewegingen als deze:
https://gereformeerdekerken.info/2016/07/08/de-emigratie-vanuit-drenthe-naar-drenthe-michigan-en-haar-geschiedenis/

Finn
01-20-2021, 09:39 PM
Ik zat wat te spelen met de MH regio's in paint; een kaart zou er ongeveer zo uit zien; namen
heb ik er zelf bijgedacht; de regio Zuid-Holland-Zuid hebben ze niet, maar is vermoedelijk
het gebied waar de groep "Rotterdam" het meest aanwezig is.

https://i.postimg.cc/1zpQW3XB/MH-regio-1.png

Knap werk. Heb je de groepen Noordoost Nederland en Duitsland (Nedersaksen) en Nederland (Groningen, Drenthe en Friesland) en Duitsland (Nedersaksen) samengebracht onder Groningen-Eemsland?

Pylsteen
01-20-2021, 10:30 PM
Knap werk. Heb je de groepen Noordoost Nederland en Duitsland (Nedersaksen) en Nederland (Groningen, Drenthe en Friesland) en Duitsland (Nedersaksen) samengebracht onder Groningen-Eemsland?

Alleen de groep Nederland (Groningen, Drenthe, Friesland) als ik t goed heb. De contouren zie je het beste als je heel ver inzoomt in de 1900-1950 periode. Ik heb de indruk dat de groep tot aan de Eems doorloopt, maar t is lastig om te zien, misschien zit het veengebied daar toch in de weg. De Duitse groepen heb ik niet ingevuld; wat me tegenvalt is de schaarste aan Belgische groepen

Ik zal eens zien hoe ver ik kom met het toevoegen van Duitse groepen langs de grens.

Finn
01-21-2021, 03:52 PM
Alleen de groep Nederland (Groningen, Drenthe, Friesland) als ik t goed heb. De contouren zie je het beste als je heel ver inzoomt in de 1900-1950 periode. Ik heb de indruk dat de groep tot aan de Eems doorloopt, maar t is lastig om te zien, misschien zit het veengebied daar toch in de weg. De Duitse groepen heb ik niet ingevuld; wat me tegenvalt is de schaarste aan Belgische groepen

Ik zal eens zien hoe ver ik kom met het toevoegen van Duitse groepen langs de grens.

Ok ik onderken voor Noordoost-Nederland (Friso-Saxon) met een blik over de grens eigenlijk twee meest prominente groepen.

Nederland (Groningen, Drenthe en Friesland) en Duitsland (Nedersaksen)
&
Noordoost-Nederland en Duitsland (Nedersaksen)

Daar zit veel overlap in. Maar ook weer wat verschillen.
Nederland (Groningen, Drenthe en Friesland) en Duitsland (Nedersaksen):
42740

en

Noordoost-Nederland en Duitsland (Nedersaksen):
42741

De nuances zitten er in dat het epicenter van het eerste cluster in Oost-Groningen; het Oldambt de Oude VeenkoloniŽn en Westerwolde, ligt en met een uitstraling richting Friesland en richting het westelijk gedeelte van Ost-Friesland (Duitsland).
Het epicenter van het tweede cluster lijkt wat meer zuidoostelijk te liggen VeenkoloniŽn (ook de Drentse) en met name ook het Duitse Emsland!

Niettemin de overlap blijft groot; het tweede cluster heeft een bijzonder soort 'kruisvorm' in Friesland.

In beide gevallen zijn de VeenkoloniŽn de belangrijkste overlap, in weerwil van het huidige imago was het lange tijd een Sillicon Valley, ontwikkeld, welvarend en een bevolkingsmagneet, zoals we hier ook kunnen zien.

Pylsteen
01-22-2021, 12:24 PM
Goed, ik heb wat van de Duitse regio's toegevoegd (gebaseerd op de 1900-1950 periode; het zijn immers op moderne individuen gebaseerde groepen); het is allemaal niet perfect en er is overal wel overlap, dus het beter om er niet te veel op blind te staren, we mogen allang blij zijn dat Nederland zoveel interessante structuren heeft. Er is helaas te weinig bekend over BelgiŽ om daarmee aan de slag te gaan.

https://i.postimg.cc/KzhTt1Nt/MH-regio-2.png

Wat ik overigens ook een fijne kaart vind, is deze strekenkaart (http://www.streektaalzang.nl/strk/strkstrn.htm).

CopperAxe
01-22-2021, 12:49 PM
Vraagjes voor de mensen hier die een stuk beter bekend zijn met moderne Hollandsche DNA dan ik:

Als ik het verschil (en de graduele overloop) van Noord-Nederland naar Zuid-Nederland (doe er ook maar BelgiŽ bij als het kan) zou moeten vergelijken met Duitsland bevoorbeeld, hoe vergelijkbaar is onze noord-zuid cline (anglicisme?) met die van de Duitsers?

Is het trouwens uberhaupt wel een graduele overloop of gaat het best snel van een noordelijk (Finn de GVR :P) profiel naar een zuidelijk profiel, of is het zelfs wat fragmentarisch?

Zijn er nog wat interessante dingen te melden over locale haplogroep frequenties in de regios? Zijn er plekken waar bijvoorbeeldeen hoger percentage voor-Indo-Europese bloedlijnen voorkomen?

Pylsteen
01-22-2021, 01:04 PM
Vraagjes voor de mensen hier die een stuk beter bekend zijn met moderne Hollandsche DNA dan ik:

Als ik het verschil (en de graduele overloop) van Noord-Nederland naar Zuid-Nederland (doe er ook maar BelgiŽ bij als het kan) zou moeten vergelijken met Duitsland bevoorbeeld, hoe vergelijkbaar is onze noord-zuid cline (anglicisme?) met die van de Duitsers?

Is het trouwens uberhaupt wel een graduele overloop of gaat het best snel van een noordelijk (Finn de GVR :P) profiel naar een zuidelijk profiel, of is het zelfs wat fragmentarisch?

Zijn er nog wat interessante dingen te melden over locale haplogroep frequenties in de regios? Zijn er plekken waar bijvoorbeeldeen hoger percentage voor-Indo-Europese bloedlijnen voorkomen?

Het is redelijk gradueel volgens mij, maar de grote rivieren vormen toch een vrij aardige grens tussen noord en zuid. In West-Duitsland is het niet veel anders, hoewel het noorden nog iets Deens-achtiger zou kunnen zijn, en Baden-WŁrttemberg nog iets zuidelijker. Bij ons lijken de "isobaren" wel dichter bij elkaar te liggen.

Zie ook voor Nederland dit artikel (https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.01.01.892513v2).

Finn
01-22-2021, 01:53 PM
Goed, ik heb wat van de Duitse regio's toegevoegd (gebaseerd op de 1900-1950 periode; het zijn immers op moderne individuen gebaseerde groepen); het is allemaal niet perfect en er is overal wel overlap, dus het beter om er niet te veel op blind te staren, we mogen allang blij zijn dat Nederland zoveel interessante structuren heeft. Er is helaas te weinig bekend over BelgiŽ om daarmee aan de slag te gaan.

https://i.postimg.cc/KzhTt1Nt/MH-regio-2.png

Wat ik overigens ook een fijne kaart vind, is deze strekenkaart (http://www.streektaalzang.nl/strk/strkstrn.htm).

Ik vond je eerste beeld nog wel wat adequater als het gaat om Noordoost Nederland.

De twee cluster sdie ik boven aangaf (simpel gesteld een klei-veen cluster en een veen-zand cluster), vormen samen op de keper beschouwd dit cluster:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/32/Friso-Saxon_Languages.PNG

Of is dat te gezocht?

Pylsteen
01-22-2021, 02:06 PM
Ik vond je eerste beeld nog wel wat adequater als het gaat om Noordoost Nederland.

De twee cluster die ik boven aangaf (simpel gesteld een klei-veen cluster en een veen-zand cluster), vormen samen op de keper beschouwd dit cluster:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/32/Friso-Saxon_Languages.PNG

Of is dat te gezocht?

Het zou zomaar kunnen; wellicht zou ik "Groningen" nog iets meer moeten laten overlappen met "Oost-Drenthe" - ben niet tevreden met die naam, maar goed... mijn geschiedenis met dat gebied is vrij beperkt - ik heb ťťn 17e eeuw lijntje naar Oude Pekela en een lijn naar Adriaan Trip, naar wie Tripscompagnie vernoemd is.

Finn
01-22-2021, 02:14 PM
Vraagjes voor de mensen hier die een stuk beter bekend zijn met moderne Hollandsche DNA dan ik:

Als ik het verschil (en de graduele overloop) van Noord-Nederland naar Zuid-Nederland (doe er ook maar BelgiŽ bij als het kan) zou moeten vergelijken met Duitsland bevoorbeeld, hoe vergelijkbaar is onze noord-zuid cline (anglicisme?) met die van de Duitsers?

Is het trouwens uberhaupt wel een graduele overloop of gaat het best snel van een noordelijk (Finn de GVR :P) profiel naar een zuidelijk profiel, of is het zelfs wat fragmentarisch?

Zijn er nog wat interessante dingen te melden over locale haplogroep frequenties in de regios? Zijn er plekken waar bijvoorbeeldeen hoger percentage voor-Indo-Europese bloedlijnen voorkomen?

Mijn indruk is dat dit al weer fijnmaziger is dan het grofmazige Noord-Zuid.
Of het nou of het Noordoosten (Groningen/Drenthe) hebt richting Nedersaksen(Emsland/Ostfriesland) de overlap met het aangrenzende Duitsland is groot.

Over de overlap met de Denen, die zag ik bij mijn moeder ook, ik weet niet hoe ik dit cluster moet plaatsen:
Engelsen, Duitsers, Denen en Nederlanders in Engeland, Duitsland en enkelen in Denemarken en Nederland, en enkelen van hun nakomelingen in de Verenigde Staten en in AustraliŽ

Finn
01-22-2021, 02:20 PM
Het zou zomaar kunnen; wellicht zou ik "Groningen" nog iets meer moeten laten overlappen met "Oost-Drenthe" - ben niet tevreden met die naam, maar goed... mijn geschiedenis met dat gebied is vrij beperkt - ik heb ťťn 17e eeuw lijntje naar Oude Pekela en een lijn naar Adriaan Trip, naar wie Tripscompagnie vernoemd is.

Klopt ik zou dit als een gebied zien, misschien is de benaming uit de Franse tijd niet eens zo slecht, Westereems:
https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westereems_(departement)
De VeenkoloniŽn zijn in Sappemeer begonnen en eindigen uiteindelijk bij Emmen.
De bevolking is samengesteld uit mensen vanuit de aangrenzen klei (Oldambt) en zand (Hondsrug en Westerwolde) en vanzelfsprekend een deel van heinde en verre (tot en met Zwitserse doopsgezinden bijvoorbeeld).
Ik zou het inderdaad als een conglomeraat zien, geen apart Oost-Drenthe cluster.

Finn
01-22-2021, 09:11 PM
double...

Finn
01-22-2021, 09:13 PM
Vraagjes voor de mensen hier die een stuk beter bekend zijn met moderne Hollandsche DNA dan ik:

Als ik het verschil (en de graduele overloop) van Noord-Nederland naar Zuid-Nederland (doe er ook maar BelgiŽ bij als het kan) zou moeten vergelijken met Duitsland bevoorbeeld, hoe vergelijkbaar is onze noord-zuid cline (anglicisme?) met die van de Duitsers?

Is het trouwens uberhaupt wel een graduele overloop of gaat het best snel van een noordelijk (Finn de GVR :P) profiel naar een zuidelijk profiel, of is het zelfs wat fragmentarisch?

Zijn er nog wat interessante dingen te melden over locale haplogroep frequenties in de regios? Zijn er plekken waar bijvoorbeeldeen hoger percentage voor-Indo-Europese bloedlijnen voorkomen?



Goed, ik heb wat van de Duitse regio's toegevoegd (gebaseerd op de 1900-1950 periode; het zijn immers op moderne individuen gebaseerde groepen); het is allemaal niet perfect en er is overal wel overlap, dus het beter om er niet te veel op blind te staren, we mogen allang blij zijn dat Nederland zoveel interessante structuren heeft. Er is helaas te weinig bekend over BelgiŽ om daarmee aan de slag te gaan.
https://i.postimg.cc/KzhTt1Nt/MH-regio-2.png

Wat ik overigens ook een fijne kaart vind, is deze strekenkaart (http://www.streektaalzang.nl/strk/strkstrn.htm).


Dit zijn de migratiepatronen des te meer roodoranje des te lager de migratie, zou er een verband inzitten met de clusters van pijlsteen? Je zou verwachten een 'coldspot' migratie is een hechte groep. Land van Cuijk bijvoorbeeld?


https://i.postimg.cc/bwHXHFdV/Schermafbeelding-2021-01-22-om-22-03-53.png (https://postimg.cc/k24h7sQW)
https://i.postimg.cc/bwHXHFdV/Schermafbeelding-2021-01-22-om-22-03-53.png

Pylsteen
01-22-2021, 09:30 PM
Die sterke grens lijkt idd tussen Cuijk (meer Gelders/Kleefs) en de Meierij (Brabant) te liggen. Ook de Peel speelt een rol zo te zien. In hun onderzoek is de Meierij (oorsprong van mijn U152) het meest op Belgie georienteerd, dit en de lage invloed vanuit Duitsland zet met name Brabant verder weg van de rest.

Finn
01-23-2021, 09:41 AM
Die sterke grens lijkt idd tussen Cuijk (meer Gelders/Kleefs) en de Meierij (Brabant) te liggen. Ook de Peel speelt een rol zo te zien. In hun onderzoek is de Meierij (oorsprong van mijn U152) het meest op Belgie georienteerd, dit en de lage invloed vanuit Duitsland zet met name Brabant verder weg van de rest.

Een deel (niet alles) van de rode lijn valt ook samen met de Bible Belt, neiging tot endogamie in streng gereformeerde kring. Ligt ook op de scheidslijn tussen meer Noordelijke en Zuidelijke 'cline'..

Elske
02-02-2021, 05:38 PM
Hey!

Zouden jullie me een beetje op gang willen helpen met mijn G25 coŲrdinaten?

Elske_scaled,0.135449,0.12491,0.065619,0.049096,0. 041546,0.024821,0.00705,0.005077,-0.00225,0.002369,-0.00747,0.004046,-0.020664,-0.014038,0.021308,0.014054,0.005998,0.002154,0.004 902,0.002751,0.011105,-0.001237,-0.001232,0.023497,-0.00479

Elske,0.0119,0.0123,0.0174,0.0152,0.0135,0.0089,0. 003,0.0022,-0.0011,0.0013,-0.0046,0.0027,-0.0139,-0.0102,0.0157,0.0106,0.0046,0.0017,0.0039,0.0022,0 .0089,-0.001,-0.001,0.0195,-0.004

Groetjes Elske

Finn
02-02-2021, 05:57 PM
Hey!

Zouden jullie me een beetje op gang willen helpen met mijn G25 coŲrdinaten?

Elske_scaled,0.135449,0.12491,0.065619,0.049096,0. 041546,0.024821,0.00705,0.005077,-0.00225,0.002369,-0.00747,0.004046,-0.020664,-0.014038,0.021308,0.014054,0.005998,0.002154,0.004 902,0.002751,0.011105,-0.001237,-0.001232,0.023497,-0.00479

Elske,0.0119,0.0123,0.0174,0.0152,0.0135,0.0089,0. 003,0.0022,-0.0011,0.0013,-0.0046,0.0027,-0.0139,-0.0102,0.0157,0.0106,0.0046,0.0017,0.0039,0.0022,0 .0089,-0.001,-0.001,0.0195,-0.004

Groetjes Elske

Dank je Elske, je kan zelf al heel snel aan de slag door van deze pagina gebruik te maken,

link (http://*************************/)

Hier staan diverse modellen in, klik bijvoorbeeld (aanrader) op:
(Davidski) Global25 standard calculator

The sources zitten er al in, je kan dan bij target je scaled resultaten kopiŽren en plakken. EN dan bij multi klikken op run, en jawel:
43015

Pylsteen
02-02-2021, 06:05 PM
Voor Vahaduo zou ik https://vahaduo.github.io/ gebruiken, de andere link is hier verboden ( lang verhaal). Voor de bronbestanden moet je dan wel bij eurogenes kijken.

Finn
02-02-2021, 06:16 PM
Voor Vahaduo zou ik https://vahaduo.github.io/ gebruiken, de andere link is hier verboden ( lang verhaal). Voor de bronbestanden moet je dan wel bij eurogenes kijken.

klopt maar googlen op Vahaduo tools for G25 custom calculators wil ook wel helpen.

Elske
02-02-2021, 07:17 PM
klopt maar googlen op Vahaduo tools for G25 custom calculators wil ook wel helpen.

Gevonden! Welke calculator raden jullie aan? Ik zie er zoveel staan haha!

Pylsteen
02-02-2021, 08:16 PM
Die met de oranje balken idd, je kunt dan wat spelen met de brondata, bijv. eerst met de gehele dataset, en later met gerichte experimenten. Ook leuk is het maken van een plot (https://vahaduo.github.io/g25views/#NorthEurope). Noord-Europa of Noordwest-Europa zal het best passen, dit soort plots helpen IMO vrij goed om een beeld te krijgen van de omgeving waarin je je bevindt. Ook hier kun je zowel jezelf als anderen uit de brondata plakken, bijv. alle Nederlanders en/of (mensen van) naburige landen. Let wel erop of je unscaled of scaled gebruikt (ik doe zelf meestal unscaled, maar het zou niet heel veel uit moeten maken).

Elske
02-02-2021, 08:51 PM
Die met de oranje balken idd, je kunt dan wat spelen met de brondata, bijv. eerst met de gehele dataset, en later met gerichte experimenten. Ook leuk is het maken van een plot (https://vahaduo.github.io/g25views/#NorthEurope). Noord-Europa of Noordwest-Europa zal het best passen, dit soort plots helpen IMO vrij goed om een beeld te krijgen van de omgeving waarin je je bevindt. Ook hier kun je zowel jezelf als anderen uit de brondata plakken, bijv. alle Nederlanders en/of (mensen van) naburige landen. Let wel erop of je unscaled of scaled gebruikt (ik doe zelf meestal unscaled, maar het zou niet heel veel uit moeten maken).

Ik heb net al even gekeken, bij diverse calculators. Veel Vikingen en Ieren... :P In het plot (jouw link) sta ik precies tussen Icelandic and Irish in.

Finn
02-02-2021, 09:13 PM
Ik heb net al even gekeken, bij diverse calculators. Veel Vikingen en Ieren... :P In het plot (jouw link) sta ik precies tussen Icelandic and Irish in.

Ach ja Noorderlingen, Groningen, Friezen, Drenthen het willen maar geen Hollanders worden :biggrin1:

43018

Finn
02-02-2021, 09:14 PM
double

Elske
02-02-2021, 09:24 PM
Ach ja Noorderlingen, Groningen, Friezen, Drenthe het willen maar geen Hollanders worden :biggrin1:

43018

LOL... :-D

Jij scoort 100% Denemarken haha. Ik Noorwegen en Ierland en ik zie Ierland vaak terugkomen in andere calculators. Meestal bovenaan of als 2e. Is er nu zoveel overlap of heb ik toch stiekem Ierse voorouders? Ik word er toch zo nieuwsgierig van!

Finn
02-03-2021, 07:59 AM
LOL... :-D

Jij scoort 100% Denemarken haha. Ik Noorwegen en Ierland en ik zie Ierland vaak terugkomen in andere calculators. Meestal bovenaan of als 2e. Is er nu zoveel overlap of heb ik toch stiekem Ierse voorouders? Ik word er toch zo nieuwsgierig van!

Vooral veel overlap, het is in Noordwest Europe inc. ScandinaviŽ echt allemaal heel dichtbij, zelfs zo dichtbij dat generaties ook nog kunnen verschillen.....Dus Ierse voorouders denk ik niet, wel gezamenlijke klokbeker voorouders, dat wel....

Pylsteen
02-03-2021, 10:44 AM
Hier een plot van Noord(west)-Europa, met de volkeren om ons heen; heb de punten weggelaten om het leesbaar te houden; ik (P1) plot midden in het Nederlandse cluster, (ondanks dat ik ook wat gemengd ben), maar ik zit net zo goed binnen het grote Duitse cluster en ook aan de randen van het Engelse en Zweedse; mijn grotendeels Zuid-Hollands, deels Brabantse (en ook een beetje Friese) moeder (P2) plot net buiten het Nederlandse cluster, maar langs de randen van het Belgische, Ierse en Duitse cluster. Ik heb je (E) er ook ingezet, je plot ook net buiten het cluster van de in de dataset bekende Nederlandse samples, maar dan richting het Deense, IJslandse en Ierse toe. Dat Ierse lijkt frappant, maar vergeet niet dat zich ook daar Vikingen hebben gevestigd.

https://i.postimg.cc/Mp1QrXyg/Europa-Noord1.png

De overlap is met name doordat we bestaan uit dezelfde onderdelen. De verschillen zitten hem in de manier waarop deze onderdelen vervolgens gehusseld zijn, maar hiervoor zou je eerder naar de matches moeten kijken.

Finn
02-03-2021, 11:20 AM
Hier een plot van Noord(west)-Europa, met de volkeren om ons heen; heb de punten weggelaten om het leesbaar te houden; ik (P1) plot midden in het Nederlandse cluster, (ondanks dat ik ook wat gemengd ben), maar ik zit net zo goed binnen het grote Duitse cluster en ook aan de randen van het Engelse en Zweedse; mijn grotendeels Zuid-Hollands, deels Brabantse (en ook een beetje Friese) moeder (P2) plot net buiten het Nederlandse cluster, maar langs de randen van het Belgische, Ierse en Duitse cluster. Ik heb je (E) er ook ingezet, je plot ook net buiten het cluster van de in de dataset bekende Nederlandse samples, maar dan richting het Deense, IJslandse en Ierse toe. Dat Ierse lijkt frappant, maar vergeet niet dat zich ook daar Vikingen hebben gevestigd.

https://i.postimg.cc/Mp1QrXyg/Europa-Noord1.png

De overlap is met name doordat we bestaan uit dezelfde onderdelen. De verschillen zitten hem in de manier waarop deze onderdelen vervolgens gehusseld zijn, maar hiervoor zou je eerder naar de matches moeten kijken.

Het enige wat ik er echt uit kan halen Pijlsteen zijn wat accent- of nuanceverschillen. Op deze plot is (vanuit Nederland bezien) Elske wat meer Noordwestelijk (Iers/IJslands) en ik ben meer Noordoostelijk (Deens/Zweeds). Maar dat lijken door er labels aan te hangen als Iers en Deens enzo opeens grote verschillen, terwijl Nederlanders zich juist in het centrum van 'genetisch' Noordwest Europa lijken te bevinden, waardoor het verschil vaak optisch is.

Wellicht heeft Davidski gelijk als hij in een recente blog dit stelt:

Now, Greg, if at least in terms of genetic ancestry, Latvians, Lithuanians, Belarusians, Poles and Ukrainians all qualify as Northeast Europeans, then what makes them different, as a group, from Northwest Europeans? Do you believe that the key factor is admixture from Baltic hunter-gatherers? Or is it genetic drift?Of course, considering all of the f4-stats above, logic dictates that it must be relatively recent genetic drift.


En dan heeft hij het zelfs over verschillen tussen NW en NO Europa, laat staan als je het intra NW Europa beziet.
Het enige echte, vanuit Nederlands perspectief gezien, verschil wat ik kan zien is het verschil tussen Zuid en Noord Nederland. Klassiek boven en beneden de rivieren, waarbij beneden de rivieren (op deze plot althans) tendeert naar het Belgisch-Engelse en boven de rivieren naar het Iers en met name Scandinavische.

Maar schiet er maar op.....

43023

Pylsteen
02-03-2021, 11:34 AM
Maar dat lijken door er labels aan te hangen als Iers en Deens enzo opeens grote verschillen, terwijl Nederlanders zich juist in het centrum van 'genetisch' Noordwest Europa lijken te bevinden, waardoor het verschil vaak optisch is.


Absoluut, door het zo te labelen worden verschillen groter gemaakt dan ze (op macro-niveau) wellicht zijn, terwijl misschien net zo goed de labels "Noord-Nederland" of "Nedersaksen" of "Noordzee" gebruikt zouden kunnen worden, allen met een net eigen accent; het blijven natuurlijk politieke grenzen, en niet per se genetische. En als ik wat nauwkeuriger ben, zou ik het natuurlijk "gedefinieerde groepen" i.p.v. "clusters" moeten noemen.

Een andere gedachte die ik heb: is de onderlinge vermenging (ook na de middeleeuwen) niet hoger dan we denken? Per streek zal dit wel verschillen, maar toch. Ik zou (drie van) mijn grootouders als inheems Nederlands kunnen beschouwen, maar ga ik terug tot de zeventiende eeuw, dan zie ik vele Duitsers, enkele Belgen, Fransen, Engelsen, Schotten, Zwitsers, Zweden en Lombarden in de stamboom tevoorschijn komen, bij elkaar waarschijnlijk minstens 1/8, van wie sommigen zeker segmenten zullen hebben nagelaten. Wellicht is het nog meer, want het overgrote deel van mijn voorouders uit die eeuw is niet bekend. En dan ben ik nog niet eens bij de middeleeuwen aanbeland.

Finn
02-03-2021, 12:23 PM
Absoluut, door het zo te labelen worden verschillen groter gemaakt dan ze (op macro-niveau) wellicht zijn, terwijl misschien net zo goed de labels "Noord-Nederland" of "Nedersaksen" of "Noordzee" gebruikt zouden kunnen worden, allen met een net eigen accent; het blijven natuurlijk politieke grenzen, en niet per se genetische. En als ik wat nauwkeuriger ben, zou ik het natuurlijk "gedefinieerde groepen" i.p.v. "clusters" moeten noemen.

Een andere gedachte die ik heb: is de onderlinge vermenging (ook na de middeleeuwen) niet hoger dan we denken? Per streek zal dit wel verschillen, maar toch. Ik zou (drie van) mijn grootouders als inheems Nederlands kunnen beschouwen, maar ga ik terug tot de zeventiende eeuw, dan zie ik vele Duitsers, enkele Belgen, Fransen, Engelsen, Schotten, Zwitsers, Zweden en Lombarden in de stamboom tevoorschijn komen, bij elkaar waarschijnlijk minstens 1/8, van wie sommigen zeker segmenten zullen hebben nagelaten. Wellicht is het nog meer, want het overgrote deel van mijn voorouders uit die eeuw is niet bekend. En dan ben ik nog niet eens bij de middeleeuwen aanbeland.

Ja en nee. Ja natuurlijk is er een zekere vermenging opgetreden. Maar Nederland was tot en met, pak hem beet, negentiende eeuw toch behoorlijk 'gewestelijk' georienteerd. Natuurlijk had je min of meer sinds de Gouden Eeuw de trek naar Randstad Holland, waarbij de Noorderlingen overigens vaak in Amsterdam (Utrecht) terechtkwamen en de Zuiderlingen in Rotterdam (Den Haag). Maar daarbuiten bleef en blijft het toch ook behoorlijk regionaal.
En vergis je niet ik denk dat de geloofsverschillen die er zeker tot medio/eind vorige eeuw in Nederland waren conserverend heeft gewerkt, katholiek in het Zuiden, protestants/ vrijzinnig in het Noorden. De hele Bible Belt, die van Zeeland door het midden via het centrale riviergebied ergens bij Kampen eindigt heeft ook als een buffer gewerkt. Nog steeds zie je overigens weinig bewegingen bijvoorbeeld tussen Groningen en Maastricht, als dan zijn het medisch specialisten en/of universitaire medewerkers. We zien de grootste mobiliteit bij de hogere middenklasse....
Maar het gros van de mensen vindt zijn huwelijkspartners nog steeds in de nabije regio Pijlsteen!

Pylsteen
02-03-2021, 02:42 PM
Maar daarbuiten bleef en blijft het toch ook behoorlijk regionaal.


Ik heb eens een onderzoekje gedaan (moet ik nog eens voltooien) naar de huwelijkspartners in het westelijk rivierenland (tussen de Waal en de Linge), waar mijn grootvader vandaan komt, gedurende de tweede helft van de 17e en eerste helft van de 18e eeuw, stuk of 4000 huwelijken. In deze hele periode kwam ongeveer 70% van de bruidegoms en 75% van de bruiden uit de streek zelf; de rest kwam grotendeels uit de direct aangrenzende streken, minder dan 5% was Duits (grotendeels NRW) en er waren enkelen van verder weg (vaak militairen). De immigratie in deze streek was in de eerste helft van de zeventiende eeuw vermoedelijk iets hoger (vanuit Duitsland en ook Zuidelijke Nederlanden). 5% per eeuw zou in deze streek toch zijn sporen moeten nalaten in plaatselijke genomen.

Finn
02-03-2021, 03:52 PM
Ik heb eens een onderzoekje gedaan (moet ik nog eens voltooien) naar de huwelijkspartners in het westelijk rivierenland (tussen de Waal en de Linge), waar mijn grootvader vandaan komt, gedurende de tweede helft van de 17e en eerste helft van de 18e eeuw, stuk of 4000 huwelijken. In deze hele periode kwam ongeveer 70% van de bruidegoms en 75% van de bruiden uit de streek zelf; de rest kwam grotendeels uit de direct aangrenzende streken, minder dan 5% was Duits (grotendeels NRW) en er waren enkelen van verder weg (vaak militairen). De immigratie in deze streek was in de eerste helft van de zeventiende eeuw vermoedelijk iets hoger (vanuit Duitsland en ook Zuidelijke Nederlanden). 5% per eeuw zou in deze streek toch zijn sporen moeten nalaten in plaatselijke genomen.

Zeker en het zou me niet verbazen als dat voor grote delen van het Noorden ook gold voor het aangrenzende Nedersaksen (Ostfriesland/Emsland), Munsterland, Westfalen. Maar ja in hoeverre verschilde dat van de 'Saksische instroom in de vroege middeleeuwen'. En bovendien die instroom werd in bepaalde zin ook weer 'geabsorbeerd'...

monedula
02-14-2021, 07:58 PM
Leuke discussie heren. Is er trouwens een manier om een melding te krijgen als er binnen een thread iets wordt gepost? Deze was even van mijn radar verdwenen.

Finn
02-14-2021, 08:14 PM
Leuke discussie heren. Is er trouwens een manier om een melding te krijgen als er binnen een thread iets wordt gepost? Deze was even van mijn radar verdwenen.

Als het goed is kan je bij setting de nieuwe berichten zijn op de threads waar je op gepost hebt.

Finn
03-09-2021, 05:39 PM
Anglesqueville is bezig om door middel van Multidimensional Scaling de raw data in beeld aan het brengen, Elske, Monedula en ik gingen je voor wie volgt? We zien al een mooi beeld ontstaan!

https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?22964-cartes-quot-Multidimensional-Scaling-quot-pour-g%E9nomes-diplo%EFdes&p=755953&viewfull=1#post755953

anglesqueville
03-09-2021, 05:54 PM
Bedankt voor de promotie. Nederlandse of Belgische vrienden zijn inderdaad welkom binnen dit kleine MDS-cohort.

CopperAxe
05-23-2021, 04:02 PM
De regio rond Wassenaar is trouwens een archaeologische goudkist voor de bronstijd. M'n grootouders wonen daar en m'n opa heeft het vaak over dat ze in de jaren 80(?) verschillende lijken van afgeslachte ongelukkige strijders hebben gevonden in een massagraf.

https://www.beleefarcheologie.nl/2017/11/22/week-archeo-break-prehistorisch-dolkje-op-parkeerplaats/

Hier heb je een voorbeeld van iets wat er zomaar uit de grond kan komen. Leuk geheimpje, de vuurstenen sikkel die hier verwezen word was gevonden in de tuin van mijn grootouders in Wassenaar :gossip:.

Stukje uit de Leidsche Courant over het graf in Wassenaar:
https://leiden.courant.nu/issue/LD/1987-05-23/edition/0/page/21

En een artikel over het graf:
https://scholarlypublications.universiteitleiden.nl/handle/1887/83397

Finn
05-26-2021, 07:31 PM
De regio rond Wassenaar is trouwens een archaeologische goudkist voor de bronstijd. M'n grootouders wonen daar en m'n opa heeft het vaak over dat ze in de jaren 80(?) verschillende lijken van afgeslachte ongelukkige strijders hebben gevonden in een massagraf.

https://www.beleefarcheologie.nl/2017/11/22/week-archeo-break-prehistorisch-dolkje-op-parkeerplaats/

Hier heb je een voorbeeld van iets wat er zomaar uit de grond kan komen. Leuk geheimpje, de vuurstenen sikkel die hier verwezen word was gevonden in de tuin van mijn grootouders in Wassenaar :gossip:.

Stukje uit de Leidsche Courant over het graf in Wassenaar:
https://leiden.courant.nu/issue/LD/1987-05-23/edition/0/page/21

En een artikel over het graf:
https://scholarlypublications.universiteitleiden.nl/handle/1887/83397

Interessant!
Tollense a la Hollandaise?

Finn
05-27-2021, 09:48 AM
De regio rond Wassenaar is trouwens een archaeologische goudkist voor de bronstijd. M'n grootouders wonen daar en m'n opa heeft het vaak over dat ze in de jaren 80(?) verschillende lijken van afgeslachte ongelukkige strijders hebben gevonden in een massagraf.

https://www.beleefarcheologie.nl/2017/11/22/week-archeo-break-prehistorisch-dolkje-op-parkeerplaats/

Hier heb je een voorbeeld van iets wat er zomaar uit de grond kan komen. Leuk geheimpje, de vuurstenen sikkel die hier verwezen word was gevonden in de tuin van mijn grootouders in Wassenaar :gossip:.

Stukje uit de Leidsche Courant over het graf in Wassenaar:
https://leiden.courant.nu/issue/LD/1987-05-23/edition/0/page/21

En een artikel over het graf:
https://scholarlypublications.universiteitleiden.nl/handle/1887/83397

Ik ben benieuwd wat de implicatie hiervan is!

Mijn indruk is nu wanneer je archeologie, linguistiek en genetica samenbrengt dat, ook in relatie tot (Noord) Nederland het volgende aan de hand is geweest (drooggekookt), met een duur woord de ethnogenesis van de (proto) Germanen, in twee golven:

1. 2850 BC, opkomst van de Indo-Europese enkelgrafcultuur vanuit Centraal Duitsland Halle/ Midden-Elbe/Saale, richting range Noord-Nederland-Jutland. Taal: vorm van Indo-Europees. Genetica: R1b P312.
2. 1850 BC, opkomst van SŲgel-Wohlde cultuur (https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/S%C3%B6gel-Wohldegroep#:~:text=De%20S%C3%B6gel%2DWohldegroep% 20(Duits%3A,Chr.)&text=De%20cultuur%20wordt%20gezien%20als,van%20het %20zogenaamde%20%C3%9An%C4%9Btice%2Dcomplex.), ook vanuit Centraal Duitsland (=Unetice cultuur) richting hetzelfde gebied. Taal: proto-Germaans (zie het werk van Euler (https://www.amazon.de/Sprache-Herkunft-Germanen-Protogermanischen-Lautverschiebung/dp/B01LP1Q93Y)) Genetica: R1b U016.

Uiteraard schetsmatig en je kan er dissertaties over vullen ;) Ben benieuwd hoe wat bij Wassenaar is gebeurd er in zou passen (of was het een burenruzie Koperakse?).

Ik krijg echt de indruk dat enkelgraf cultuur het netwerk heeft opgebouwd, waar SŲgel-Wohlde een uitvloeisel van is geweest, dus de rails zijn gelegd door de enkelgraf mensen en later zijn de sŲgel-wohlde mensen hier over heen 'gedenderd'.

Finn
06-17-2021, 05:29 PM
Zo zag dus iemand van de enkelgrafcultuur er uit Cees uit West-Friesland, zou nu volgens niet opvallen op straat....of? :https://i.postimg.cc/sXVDvCjx/Schermafbeelding-2021-06-17-om-19-16-29.png (https://postimg.cc/5HRMRGFW)


https://www.archeologiewestfriesland.nl/publicatie/aiwf-9/

Kellebel
06-18-2021, 01:17 AM
Zo zag dus iemand van de enkelgrafcultuur er uit Cees uit West-Friesland, zou nu volgens niet opvallen op straat....of? :https://i.postimg.cc/sXVDvCjx/Schermafbeelding-2021-06-17-om-19-16-29.png (https://postimg.cc/5HRMRGFW)


https://www.archeologiewestfriesland.nl/publicatie/aiwf-9/

Grappig, Opmeer is niet ver bij mij vandaan! Misschien z'n gezichtshaar enigszins indammen en wellicht een ander kapsel, maar idd, zou hier gewoon in de menigte op kunnen gaan!

Finn
06-18-2021, 07:12 AM
Grappig, Opmeer is niet ver bij mij vandaan! Misschien z'n gezichtshaar enigszins indammen en wellicht een ander kapsel, maar idd, zou hier gewoon in de menigte op kunnen gaan!

Hahah dat was precies het commentaar van mijn vrouw, ja zou kunnen met wat getrimmed haar etc. 'En hij heeft wel een grote kop, dat valt wel op, maar goed zo een heb jij ook'......:faint:

Finn
12-11-2021, 10:27 AM
Belgian DNA Project: Merovingians of Koksijde


https://www.vrt.be/vrtnws/en/2021/11/20/dna-research-on-bones-sheds-light-on-the-merovingians/


https://www.vrt.be/vrtnws/nl/2021/11/19/dna-onderzoek-geeft-geheimen-prijs-wie-waren-de-merovingers-ond/

Naar aanleiding hiervan dacht ik in hoeverre zijn de Nederlandse deelnemers nu een mengeling van de ijzertijd samples en de Germaanse samples die in de vroege middeleeuwen ons land binnen kwamen.

@Kellebell zou ik jouw G25 scaled gegegevens ook mogen, en of anderen.....

Dit is een van de resultaten:
https://i.postimg.cc/rFn0KY3B/Schermafbeelding-2021-12-11-om-09-05-10.png (https://postimg.cc/vcnHKXQh)

Elske heeft de meeste Frisii componenten, wat voor een Friezin natuurlijk niet gek is. Heel opvallend vind ik dat bij de Finn's IJzertijd Zeeland opduikt....verklaring? qua landstreek kan het niet verder uit elkaar.....

Vul aub aan!

CGPF
12-11-2021, 03:16 PM
Vul aub aan!

CGPFmother_scaled,0.130897,0.137096,0.054682,0.047 804,0.040623,0.018965,0.010105,0.003461,-0.003886,0.001458,-0.013153,0.009891,-0.009514,-0.013625,0.026601,0.011005,-0.004563,0.002787,0.005908,-0.000125,-0.000125,0.001113,-0.003081,0.015303,0.000838

Rond 1700 voornamelijk voorouders uit dorpen op de Zuid-Hollandse eilanden en in de Alblasserwaard. Vervolgens 9% Land van Altena en 1,8 % Duits (Rijnland Palts).

CGPF
12-11-2021, 03:51 PM
Heel opvallend vind ik dat bij de Finn's IJzertijd Zeeland opduikt....verklaring? qua landstreek kan het niet verder uit elkaar....

Er is niets bekend over de herkomst van de Zeeuwse IJzertijd vrouw. De gemeenschap waartoe zij behoorde zal zich waarschijnlijk langs de kust verplaatst hebben. Toen bij Serooskerke (W) achter de duinen - na een doorbraak - kwelders ontstonden, vestigden zij zich daar. Eind derde eeuw was het gebied daar echter weer onbewoonbaar geworden, door overstromingen. Waarschijnlijk trokken ze toen zuidwaarts. Of de IJzertijd vrouw representatief is voor haar gemeenschap weten wij niet. Ze kan ook van ver zijn gekomen.

Finn
12-11-2021, 06:42 PM
Er is niets bekend over de herkomst van de Zeeuwse IJzertijd vrouw. De gemeenschap waartoe zij behoorde zal zich waarschijnlijk langs de kust verplaatst hebben. Toen bij Serooskerke (W) achter de duinen - na een doorbraak - kwelders ontstonden, vestigden zij zich daar. Eind derde eeuw was het gebied daar echter weer onbewoonbaar geworden, door overstromingen. Waarschijnlijk trokken ze toen zuidwaarts. Of de IJzertijd vrouw representatief is voor haar gemeenschap weten wij niet. Ze kan ook van ver zijn gekomen.

Dat is inderdaad koffiedik kijken, blijkbaar zit er een component in die overkomt met IJzertijd Noordoost Nederlanders.... dat zou mijn eerste verklaring zijn. Ze plot tussen een aantal huidige Nederlanders en Duitsers in niet extreem Noordelijk of zo.

https://i.postimg.cc/8PBQRFbV/Unknown-53.png (https://postimg.cc/mtD5Rgqd)

Finn
12-11-2021, 06:49 PM
CGPFmother_scaled,0.130897,0.137096,0.054682,0.047 804,0.040623,0.018965,0.010105,0.003461,-0.003886,0.001458,-0.013153,0.009891,-0.009514,-0.013625,0.026601,0.011005,-0.004563,0.002787,0.005908,-0.000125,-0.000125,0.001113,-0.003081,0.015303,0.000838

Rond 1700 voornamelijk voorouders uit dorpen op de Zuid-Hollandse eilanden en in de Alblasserwaard. Vervolgens 9% Land van Altena en 1,8 % Duits (Rijnland Palts).


Blijkbaar waren de Saksen ook richting Zuid-Hollandse eiland getogen, de Albasserwaard lijkt me (zo op het eerste oog, kan het volledig mis hebben, vanwege het Bible Belt gehalte) ook een vrij gesloten gemeenschap, endogamie?

https://i.postimg.cc/ht1mR0b3/Schermafbeelding-2021-12-11-om-19-45-25.png (https://postimg.cc/9Dz0GZkG)

Kellebel
12-11-2021, 06:58 PM
Naar aanleiding hiervan dacht ik in hoeverre zijn de Nederlandse deelnemers nu een mengeling van de ijzertijd samples en de Germaanse samples die in de vroege middeleeuwen ons land binnen kwamen.

@Kellebell zou ik jouw G25 scaled gegegevens ook mogen, en of anderen.....

Dit is een van de resultaten:
https://i.postimg.cc/rFn0KY3B/Schermafbeelding-2021-12-11-om-09-05-10.png (https://postimg.cc/vcnHKXQh)

Elske heeft de meeste Frisii componenten, wat voor een Friezin natuurlijk niet gek is. Heel opvallend vind ik dat bij de Finn's IJzertijd Zeeland opduikt....verklaring? qua landstreek kan het niet verder uit elkaar.....

Vul aub aan!

Leuk!! PM met onze coords komt eraan --> :cheer2:

Finn
12-11-2021, 07:57 PM
Leuk!! PM met onze coords komt eraan --> :cheer2:

En ook hier Zeeland IA!

https://i.postimg.cc/XJSbbtKw/Schermafbeelding-2021-12-11-om-20-51-46.png (https://postimg.cc/B8gy5YV6)

Kellebel
12-11-2021, 08:43 PM
En ook hier Zeeland IA!

https://i.postimg.cc/XJSbbtKw/Schermafbeelding-2021-12-11-om-20-51-46.png (https://postimg.cc/B8gy5YV6)

Ohww de distance van m'n moeder is wel echt om te janken, zeg :wacko:

Finn
12-11-2021, 08:44 PM
Ohww de distance van m'n moeder is wel echt om te janken, zeg :wacko:

Ja blijkbaar ontbreekt daar nog een "component".

Kellebel
12-11-2021, 09:34 PM
Ja blijkbaar ontbreekt daar nog een "component".

Ik denk dat je gelijk hebt, idd. Wanneer ik de Franse IA samples van de Keltische study waar we allemaal op zitten te wachten er bij doe (zie deze post (https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?24962-50-replacement-in-GB-Patterson-et-al-in-review&p=813714#post813714)), verbetert haar distance aanzienlijk:

Target: Ella_scaled
Distance: 2.0352% / 0.02035193
35.4 FRA_IA_GrandEst
34.8 England_Saxon
29.8 FRA_IA_SouthEast

Zelfs zonder SouthEast:

Target: Ella_scaled
Distance: 2.3968% / 0.02396784
65.2 FRA_IA_GrandEst
30.6 England_Saxon
4.2 Netherlands_IA

De 4.2% NL IA hierboven is wederom het Zeeuwse sample!



Gebruikte samples in de source:


England_Saxon:I0157,0.129758,0.140143,0.065996,0.0 59109,0.037853,0.019801,0.00752,0.007615,0.006749,-0.00656,-0.006496,0.008992,-0.009217,-0.01156,0.028908,0.007955,-0.006258,0.000253,0.008045,0.009755,0.003619,-0.003215,-0.005176,0.025666,-0.002874
England_Saxon:I0159,0.130897,0.135065,0.062979,0.0 53618,0.038161,0.023148,0.00329,0.006461,0.001023,-0.000729,-0.001299,0.006894,-0.014569,-0.010322,0.028366,0.010342,-0.007432,0.000507,0.004525,0.008254,0.001373,0.007 296,-0.005916,0.012773,0.003592
England_Saxon:I0161,0.12862,0.13405,0.061848,0.048 127,0.04647,0.020638,0.004465,0.005077,0.006749,0. 004738,-0.002436,0.004946,-0.006987,-0.012799,0.024158,0.006895,0.004563,0.0019,0.00364 5,0.005503,0.002246,-0.00272,0.006779,0.016267,0.003233
England_Saxon:I0769,0.129758,0.132019,0.070899,0.0 59432,0.044624,0.025937,0.00282,0.005538,0,-0.006743,-0.006171,0.004796,-0.012785,-0.012386,0.028366,0.0179,0.00691,-0.003674,0.006159,0.008004,0.008235,0.005193,0.000 37,0.019521,0.002036
England_Saxon:I0773,0.141141,0.126941,0.063356,0.0 71383,0.044008,0.024263,0.00799,0.011307,0.00409,-0.00656,-0.005359,0.005395,-0.01219,-0.013074,0.021172,0.011668,-0.001434,0.000887,0.008673,0.008629,0.010981,0.003 957,-0.003081,0.015544,-0.007424
England_Saxon:I0774,0.134311,0.13405,0.054305,0.05 1034,0.038161,0.014223,0.013161,0.007615,0.001227, 0.003462,-0.004709,0.002548,-0.00446,-0.008257,0.018051,0.009016,-0.01004,0.005448,0.005908,0,0.002246,0.000371,0.00 0863,0.016267,-0.00467
England_Saxon:I0777,0.135449,0.136081,0.063356,0.0 50388,0.040315,0.019522,0.006345,0.009461,0.01084, 0.000182,-0.005196,0.001349,-0.003271,-0.020781,0.017101,0.020551,0.00326,0.002154,0.0047 77,0.008129,0.003993,0.00643,-0.00949,0.011929,-0.002754
England_Saxon:NO3423,0.129758,0.13405,0.068259,0.0 62339,0.0397,0.017012,0.004465,0.002077,0.001227,-0.007107,-0.007795,0.001499,-0.010852,-0.010459,0.027823,0.005569,-0.014212,0.004561,-0.000126,0.005002,0.009982,0.002473,0.002465,0.015 183,0.001916
Netherlands_IA:I12903,0.135449,0.120848,0.057699,0 .088825,0.028005,0.014223,-0.012221,0,-0.011658,-0.015308,-0.018512,-0.00045,-0.005946,-0.01968,0.013029,-0.022673,-0.016168,-0.011782,0.005782,0.014632,-0.001123,-0.007914,0.002588,0.000361,0.006227
Netherlands_IA:I12905,0.122929,0.128972,0.057699,0 .063308,0.046162,0.015618,0.00987,0.010846,-0.007772,-0.011116,-0.004872,0.002398,-0.024083,-0.018441,0.04153,0.011535,0.000522,-0.001647,-0.004525,-0.012006,0.005989,0.003833,0.001479,-0.011086,0.013172
Netherlands_IA:I12906,0.118376,0.13405,0.052043,0. 043282,0.038776,0.016455,0.012456,0.009,0.00634,0. 012574,0.001624,0.017385,-0.000892,-0.000275,0.008279,-0.005701,-0.020079,-0.000633,0.001257,0.005127,0.010232,0.016199,-0.005546,-0.001687,0.00491
Netherlands_IA:I12907,0.138864,0.131003,0.062602,0 .065246,0.038776,0.016455,-0.000705,-0.007384,0.003272,-0.005103,0.003085,0.010491,-0.013825,-0.019405,0.033251,0.010872,0.005998,-0.001267,0.007165,0.004502,0.010606,0.012365,-0.002218,0.020726,-0.01904
Netherlands_IA:I17750,0.135449,0.126941,0.07467,0. 050065,0.038469,0.018128,0.0094,0.004846,0.001227,-0.007289,-0.012991,0.005545,-0.016055,-0.007569,0.021037,0.017634,0.008214,0.000507,0.004 902,0.007128,0.001872,-0.000495,0.008627,0.015062,0.001078
FRA_IA_GrandEst:France_GrandEst_IA2:I19356,0.12862 ,0.129988,0.061094,0.041021,0.048317,0.011713,0.00 517,0.008769,-0.002454,0.007654,-0.004384,0.009442,-0.010406,-0.011423,0.008822,-0.000398,-0.001956,0.00038,0.003394,0.002501,0.000125,-0.001607,0.000616,-0.004579,-0.000838
FRA_IA_GrandEst:France_GrandEst_IA2:I19357,0.12748 2,0.142174,0.061471,0.04845,0.051086,0.00502,0.003 76,0.008077,0.013703,0.012574,-0.002761,0.002248,-0.010406,-0.007844,0.022937,-0.005967,-0.024512,0.006588,-0.005028,0.001501,0.010482,0.010758,-0.007395,-0.005061,-0.002994
FRA_IA_GrandEst:France_GrandEst_IA2:I19358,0.13431 1,0.132019,0.049403,0.032623,0.046778,0.01757,0.01 1516,0.003461,0.009204,0.007107,0.011205,0.01169,-0.009217,-0.00578,0.009908,-0.009812,-0.024251,-0.0019,-0.000754,-0.005002,0.007487,0.003833,-0.000493,0.002289,0.00012
FRA_IA_GrandEst:France_GrandEst_IA2:I19359,0.14341 7,0.136081,0.049403,0.027132,0.029544,0.016733,-0.000705,-0.006461,0.02127,0.009294,0,-0.001049,-0.002825,-0.013487,0.003529,0.020154,-0.03064,-0.004814,-0.004651,-0.002126,-0.006489,-0.013107,0.007888,-0.005904,0.001916
FRA_IA_GrandEst:France_GrandEst_IA2:I19362,0.13317 3,0.133034,0.061848,0.050065,0.029236,0.011156,0.0 07285,0.013153,-0.002045,0.004191,-0.008282,0.004796,-0.010406,-0.009358,0.018865,-0.002917,-0.001695,0.005954,0.008045,0.007379,0.00262,0.0055 64,0.003204,0.000482,-0.007903
FRA_IA_GrandEst:France_GrandEst_IA2:I20815,0.12634 4,0.141159,0.051666,0.032946,0.054472,0.010598,0.0 04935,0.008077,0.01084,0.015672,-0.009906,0.012889,-0.006838,-0.005505,0.013029,-0.016574,-0.023339,0.006588,0.004902,-0.005878,0.007861,0.005193,-0.008997,0.002048,-0.008502
FRA_IA_GrandEst:France_GrandEst_IA2:I20817,0.13203 5,0.139128,0.059208,0.04199,0.043085,0.02008,0.003 995,-0.000231,0.004295,0.004009,-0.011854,0.008842,-0.010704,-0.013074,0.021172,-0.005701,-0.016689,0.005954,0.006285,0.008129,0.012603,0.006 801,0.006902,0.001566,0.005987
FRA_IA_GrandEst:France_GrandEst_IA2:I21931,0.12065 2,0.125926,0.056191,0.028101,0.04647,0.015339,0.00 1645,-0.006231,0.010226,0.014397,-0.002923,-0.002847,-0.014866,-0.016928,0.015472,-0.010475,-0.007041,0.00152,0.004148,-0.013882,0.005241,0.000247,-0.005053,-0.003976,0.001197
FRA_IA_SouthEast:France_SouthEast_IA2:I13620,0.127 482,0.136081,0.061094,0.013889,0.044316,0.01255,0. 001645,0.003923,0.019225,0.030069,-0.007795,0.01109,-0.019475,-0.003716,0.014251,-0.005569,-0.024251,0.014316,0.01345,-0.0005,0.011854,-0.001978,-0.006286,0.005302,-0.002275
FRA_IA_SouthEast:France_SouthEast_IA2:I13623,0.128 62,0.148267,0.065996,0.013889,0.051086,-0.014223,-0.011281,0.011769,0.022089,0.04647,-0.005684,0.013788,-0.025421,-0.016102,0.009093,0.008486,0.01017,-0.00228,-0.001131,0.009129,0.004243,0.011994,0.006902,0.000 964,-0.004431
FRA_IA_SouthEast:France_SouthEast_IA2:I19916,0.130 897,0.145221,0.060716,0.020026,0.048009,0.001116,0 .0047,0.005077,0.016771,0.031527,0.005034,0.009442 ,-0.007879,-0.018166,0.004072,0.007027,0.013951,0.000887,-0.010307,0.005753,0.001622,-0.001484,-0.008381,-0.005904,-0.008502
FRA_IA_SouthEast:France_SouthEast_IA2:I19917,0.122 929,0.15436,0.058077,0.008721,0.043085,0.001116,0. 004935,0.000231,0.02127,0.033531,-0.002111,0.012589,-0.021556,-0.004404,0.012893,-0.001326,-0.003781,0.003927,0.000628,-0.004252,-0.002995,0.004328,0.002095,-0.003615,0.006466
FRA_IA_SouthEast:France_SouthEast_IA2:I19918,0.117 238,0.144205,0.056568,0.017442,0.045855,0.001952,0 ,0.000692,0.016566,0.031527,0.00406,0.011839,-0.027502,-0.021882,0.008958,-0.001193,-0.00665,0.001774,0.008547,-0.000625,0.001996,0.009645,-0.017501,0.001928,0.003233

Pylsteen
12-11-2021, 10:02 PM
Voor het zuiden zou ik toch de Romeinen niet vergeten (ik vermoed 1-5%).

Kellebel
12-11-2021, 10:12 PM
Voor het zuiden zou ik toch de Romeinen niet vergeten (ik vermoed 1-5%).

Ik heb de volgende samples toegevoegd aan de hierboven vermelde source:

ITA_IA:_Ardea_Latini_IA,0.133173,0.156392,0.0445,-0.00969,0.044008,-0.004462,0.00846,0.003,0.024543,0.044101,-0.002598,0.012289,-0.022448,-0.009634,-0.005429,-0.005834,0.00352,0.003167,0.006034,-0.007379,-0.008859,0.005317,-0.000863,-0.006989,-0.001796
ITA_IA:_Boville_Ernica_IA,0.126344,0.152329,0.0343 18,-0.014535,0.054164,-0.01506,-0.001175,0.005307,0.019634,0.041914,0.005196,0.010 79,-0.011001,-0.005643,0.004479,-0.016441,-0.010822,-0.001394,0.006662,-0.01113,0.007736,0.007172,-0.007641,-0.00241,0.008981
ITA_IA:_Etruscan,0.126913,0.153853,0.034695,-0.014212,0.0417,-0.005299,0.0024675,-0.002769,0.019839,0.0343515,-0.0023545,0.014237,-0.014792,-0.004335,-0.00475,-0.007823,-0.0028035,0.0052575,0.011564,-0.001188,-0.002558,0.003771,-6.15e-05,-0.0004215,-0.002694
ITA_IA:_Prenestini_tribe_IA,0.12862,0.145221,0.047 14,0.005491,0.046162,0.00251,-0.00282,0.002769,0.021475,0.039727,-0.002923,0.012289,-0.021407,-0.016239,0.012622,0.000398,-0.003129,0.003421,0.00176,-0.001251,0.004492,0.003586,-0.00456,-0.003976,0.000239
ITA_IA:_Rome_Latini_IA,0.127482,0.147252,0.033187,-0.016796,0.044008,-0.008646,-0.00376,-0.004846,0.026588,0.052666,-0.002761,0.015137,-0.036719,-0.008533,-0.009093,0.013392,0.016037,-0.004687,0.003897,0.004127,0.00262,-0.00272,0.001972,-0.007712,-0.008742
ITA_IA:_Villanovan,0.12862,0.156392,0.042238,-0.024225,0.052933,-0.008367,-0.001645,-0.005307,0.023725,0.040274,0.006008,0.006894,-0.018285,-0.019405,-0.003529,0.008751,0.025686,0.002914,0.004651,0.004 252,0.00574,0.006059,-0.006286,-0.010604,-0.002515
ITA_Imperial:_Etruria_Imperial,0.113823,0.148267,0 .003394,-0.030362,0.018773,-0.024821,-0.00282,-0.001846,0.009408,0.027518,0.007632,-0.000599,-0.007284,-0.006881,0.003393,-0.006629,0.01343,-0.000887,-0.002891,-0.006128,0.006863,0.011252,0.005176,0.003735,0.009 34
ITA_Imperial:_Rome_Imperial,0.1039821,0.1495156,-0.0235307,-0.0574065,0.0045265,-0.0204055,-0.0011946,-0.0051488,0.0006604,0.0196549,0.0034575,0.0025539,-0.0040602,-0.0014737,-0.0081715,-0.0014474,0.0035992,0.000454,0.0012178,-0.0032854,-0.0025579,0.0020454,-0.0006985,-0.0004845,0.0004141


Target: Ella_scaled
Distance: 1.4953% / 0.01495339
41.0 England_Saxon
27.4 FRA_IA_GrandEst
15.0 ITA_IA
10.4 ITA_Imperial
4.6 FRA_IA_SouthEast
1.6 Netherlands_IA

Pylsteen
12-11-2021, 10:25 PM
Ik heb de volgende samples toegevoegd aan de hierboven vermelde source:


interessant; zoveel Romeins hoeft nou ook weer niet :biggrin1:

Kellebel
12-11-2021, 10:36 PM
interessant; zoveel Romeins hoeft nou ook weer niet :biggrin1:

Haha :lol:

Haar moeder heeft een wat genuanceerder resultaat voor een Zuid-Limburgse:

Target: Pao_scaled
Distance: 1.3447% / 0.01344671
41.0 England_Saxon
33.2 FRA_IA_GrandEst
20.4 ITA_IA
5.4 ITA_Imperial

JMcB
12-11-2021, 10:42 PM
Originally Posted by Pylsteen
Voor het zuiden zou ik toch de Romeinen niet vergeten (ik vermoed 1-5%).



Ik heb de volgende samples toegevoegd aan de hierboven vermelde source.

Target: Ella_scaled
Distance: 1.4953% / 0.01495339
41.0 England_Saxon
27.4 FRA_IA_GrandEst
15.0 ITA_IA
10.4 ITA_Imperial
4.6 FRA_IA_SouthEast
1.6 Netherlands_IA


Bedankt!

Thank you for the sources, I couldn’t resist:


Version 1

Target: JMcB_scaled
Distance: 1.2195% / 0.01219485

40.2 England_Saxon
32.6 FRA_IA_SouthEast
23.8 FRA_IA_GrandEst
3.4 Netherlands_IA


Version 2

Target: JMcB_scaled
Distance: 1.1924% / 0.01192370

49.8 England_Saxon
20.4 FRA_IA_SouthEast
18.2 FRA_IA_GrandEst
11.4 ITA_IA
0.2 Netherlands_IA

CGPF
12-12-2021, 07:37 AM
Blijkbaar waren de Saksen ook richting Zuid-Hollandse eiland getogen, de Albasserwaard lijkt me (zo op het eerste oog, kan het volledig mis hebben, vanwege het Bible Belt gehalte) ook een vrij gesloten gemeenschap, endogamie?

https://i.postimg.cc/ht1mR0b3/Schermafbeelding-2021-12-11-om-19-45-25.png (https://postimg.cc/9Dz0GZkG)

De huidige Alblasserwaard werd vanaf de 11e eeuw in twee richtingen ontgonnen: vanuit het westen (graaf van Holland, Vlaardingen e.o) en vanuit Utrecht (de bisschop). Of er ook afstammelingen van eerdere (IJzertijd) bewoners meededen aan de ontginning is onbekend. Nadat het gebied ontgonnen was en de kaarten geschut zal de toestroom van buiten zijn afgenomen. Dat verandert wat in de 17e eeuw als in garnizoenplaatsen, zoals Gorinchem, in grote aantallen Engelse, Schotse, Franse en Duitse soldaten opduiken. Hun genetische impact op de Alblasserwaard is echter beperkt. In de Hollandse steden was in de 17e en 18e eeuw de impact van nieuwkomers (arbeidsmigranten, vluchtelingen) vele malen groter. De Alblasserwaard bleef relatief gesloten, maar zeker niet volledig gesloten. Endogamie zie ik daar in 17e eeuwse schippersfamilies en bij riviervissers. Bij de boeren was het buurmeisje met grond en koeien populair.

Finn
12-12-2021, 10:27 AM
Ik denk dat je gelijk hebt, idd. Wanneer ik de Franse IA samples van de Keltische study waar we allemaal op zitten te wachten er bij doe (zie deze post (https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?24962-50-replacement-in-GB-Patterson-et-al-in-review&p=813714#post813714)), verbetert haar distance aanzienlijk:

Target: Ella_scaled
Distance: 2.0352% / 0.02035193
35.4 FRA_IA_GrandEst
34.8 England_Saxon
29.8 FRA_IA_SouthEast

Zelfs zonder SouthEast:

Target: Ella_scaled
Distance: 2.3968% / 0.02396784
65.2 FRA_IA_GrandEst
30.6 England_Saxon
4.2 Netherlands_IA

De 4.2% NL IA hierboven is wederom het Zeeuwse sample!



Gebruikte samples in de source:


England_Saxon:I0157,0.129758,0.140143,0.065996,0.0 59109,0.037853,0.019801,0.00752,0.007615,0.006749,-0.00656,-0.006496,0.008992,-0.009217,-0.01156,0.028908,0.007955,-0.006258,0.000253,0.008045,0.009755,0.003619,-0.003215,-0.005176,0.025666,-0.002874
England_Saxon:I0159,0.130897,0.135065,0.062979,0.0 53618,0.038161,0.023148,0.00329,0.006461,0.001023,-0.000729,-0.001299,0.006894,-0.014569,-0.010322,0.028366,0.010342,-0.007432,0.000507,0.004525,0.008254,0.001373,0.007 296,-0.005916,0.012773,0.003592
England_Saxon:I0161,0.12862,0.13405,0.061848,0.048 127,0.04647,0.020638,0.004465,0.005077,0.006749,0. 004738,-0.002436,0.004946,-0.006987,-0.012799,0.024158,0.006895,0.004563,0.0019,0.00364 5,0.005503,0.002246,-0.00272,0.006779,0.016267,0.003233
England_Saxon:I0769,0.129758,0.132019,0.070899,0.0 59432,0.044624,0.025937,0.00282,0.005538,0,-0.006743,-0.006171,0.004796,-0.012785,-0.012386,0.028366,0.0179,0.00691,-0.003674,0.006159,0.008004,0.008235,0.005193,0.000 37,0.019521,0.002036
England_Saxon:I0773,0.141141,0.126941,0.063356,0.0 71383,0.044008,0.024263,0.00799,0.011307,0.00409,-0.00656,-0.005359,0.005395,-0.01219,-0.013074,0.021172,0.011668,-0.001434,0.000887,0.008673,0.008629,0.010981,0.003 957,-0.003081,0.015544,-0.007424
England_Saxon:I0774,0.134311,0.13405,0.054305,0.05 1034,0.038161,0.014223,0.013161,0.007615,0.001227, 0.003462,-0.004709,0.002548,-0.00446,-0.008257,0.018051,0.009016,-0.01004,0.005448,0.005908,0,0.002246,0.000371,0.00 0863,0.016267,-0.00467
England_Saxon:I0777,0.135449,0.136081,0.063356,0.0 50388,0.040315,0.019522,0.006345,0.009461,0.01084, 0.000182,-0.005196,0.001349,-0.003271,-0.020781,0.017101,0.020551,0.00326,0.002154,0.0047 77,0.008129,0.003993,0.00643,-0.00949,0.011929,-0.002754
England_Saxon:NO3423,0.129758,0.13405,0.068259,0.0 62339,0.0397,0.017012,0.004465,0.002077,0.001227,-0.007107,-0.007795,0.001499,-0.010852,-0.010459,0.027823,0.005569,-0.014212,0.004561,-0.000126,0.005002,0.009982,0.002473,0.002465,0.015 183,0.001916
Netherlands_IA:I12903,0.135449,0.120848,0.057699,0 .088825,0.028005,0.014223,-0.012221,0,-0.011658,-0.015308,-0.018512,-0.00045,-0.005946,-0.01968,0.013029,-0.022673,-0.016168,-0.011782,0.005782,0.014632,-0.001123,-0.007914,0.002588,0.000361,0.006227
Netherlands_IA:I12905,0.122929,0.128972,0.057699,0 .063308,0.046162,0.015618,0.00987,0.010846,-0.007772,-0.011116,-0.004872,0.002398,-0.024083,-0.018441,0.04153,0.011535,0.000522,-0.001647,-0.004525,-0.012006,0.005989,0.003833,0.001479,-0.011086,0.013172
Netherlands_IA:I12906,0.118376,0.13405,0.052043,0. 043282,0.038776,0.016455,0.012456,0.009,0.00634,0. 012574,0.001624,0.017385,-0.000892,-0.000275,0.008279,-0.005701,-0.020079,-0.000633,0.001257,0.005127,0.010232,0.016199,-0.005546,-0.001687,0.00491
Netherlands_IA:I12907,0.138864,0.131003,0.062602,0 .065246,0.038776,0.016455,-0.000705,-0.007384,0.003272,-0.005103,0.003085,0.010491,-0.013825,-0.019405,0.033251,0.010872,0.005998,-0.001267,0.007165,0.004502,0.010606,0.012365,-0.002218,0.020726,-0.01904
Netherlands_IA:I17750,0.135449,0.126941,0.07467,0. 050065,0.038469,0.018128,0.0094,0.004846,0.001227,-0.007289,-0.012991,0.005545,-0.016055,-0.007569,0.021037,0.017634,0.008214,0.000507,0.004 902,0.007128,0.001872,-0.000495,0.008627,0.015062,0.001078
FRA_IA_GrandEst:France_GrandEst_IA2:I19356,0.12862 ,0.129988,0.061094,0.041021,0.048317,0.011713,0.00 517,0.008769,-0.002454,0.007654,-0.004384,0.009442,-0.010406,-0.011423,0.008822,-0.000398,-0.001956,0.00038,0.003394,0.002501,0.000125,-0.001607,0.000616,-0.004579,-0.000838
FRA_IA_GrandEst:France_GrandEst_IA2:I19357,0.12748 2,0.142174,0.061471,0.04845,0.051086,0.00502,0.003 76,0.008077,0.013703,0.012574,-0.002761,0.002248,-0.010406,-0.007844,0.022937,-0.005967,-0.024512,0.006588,-0.005028,0.001501,0.010482,0.010758,-0.007395,-0.005061,-0.002994
FRA_IA_GrandEst:France_GrandEst_IA2:I19358,0.13431 1,0.132019,0.049403,0.032623,0.046778,0.01757,0.01 1516,0.003461,0.009204,0.007107,0.011205,0.01169,-0.009217,-0.00578,0.009908,-0.009812,-0.024251,-0.0019,-0.000754,-0.005002,0.007487,0.003833,-0.000493,0.002289,0.00012
FRA_IA_GrandEst:France_GrandEst_IA2:I19359,0.14341 7,0.136081,0.049403,0.027132,0.029544,0.016733,-0.000705,-0.006461,0.02127,0.009294,0,-0.001049,-0.002825,-0.013487,0.003529,0.020154,-0.03064,-0.004814,-0.004651,-0.002126,-0.006489,-0.013107,0.007888,-0.005904,0.001916
FRA_IA_GrandEst:France_GrandEst_IA2:I19362,0.13317 3,0.133034,0.061848,0.050065,0.029236,0.011156,0.0 07285,0.013153,-0.002045,0.004191,-0.008282,0.004796,-0.010406,-0.009358,0.018865,-0.002917,-0.001695,0.005954,0.008045,0.007379,0.00262,0.0055 64,0.003204,0.000482,-0.007903
FRA_IA_GrandEst:France_GrandEst_IA2:I20815,0.12634 4,0.141159,0.051666,0.032946,0.054472,0.010598,0.0 04935,0.008077,0.01084,0.015672,-0.009906,0.012889,-0.006838,-0.005505,0.013029,-0.016574,-0.023339,0.006588,0.004902,-0.005878,0.007861,0.005193,-0.008997,0.002048,-0.008502
FRA_IA_GrandEst:France_GrandEst_IA2:I20817,0.13203 5,0.139128,0.059208,0.04199,0.043085,0.02008,0.003 995,-0.000231,0.004295,0.004009,-0.011854,0.008842,-0.010704,-0.013074,0.021172,-0.005701,-0.016689,0.005954,0.006285,0.008129,0.012603,0.006 801,0.006902,0.001566,0.005987
FRA_IA_GrandEst:France_GrandEst_IA2:I21931,0.12065 2,0.125926,0.056191,0.028101,0.04647,0.015339,0.00 1645,-0.006231,0.010226,0.014397,-0.002923,-0.002847,-0.014866,-0.016928,0.015472,-0.010475,-0.007041,0.00152,0.004148,-0.013882,0.005241,0.000247,-0.005053,-0.003976,0.001197
FRA_IA_SouthEast:France_SouthEast_IA2:I13620,0.127 482,0.136081,0.061094,0.013889,0.044316,0.01255,0. 001645,0.003923,0.019225,0.030069,-0.007795,0.01109,-0.019475,-0.003716,0.014251,-0.005569,-0.024251,0.014316,0.01345,-0.0005,0.011854,-0.001978,-0.006286,0.005302,-0.002275
FRA_IA_SouthEast:France_SouthEast_IA2:I13623,0.128 62,0.148267,0.065996,0.013889,0.051086,-0.014223,-0.011281,0.011769,0.022089,0.04647,-0.005684,0.013788,-0.025421,-0.016102,0.009093,0.008486,0.01017,-0.00228,-0.001131,0.009129,0.004243,0.011994,0.006902,0.000 964,-0.004431
FRA_IA_SouthEast:France_SouthEast_IA2:I19916,0.130 897,0.145221,0.060716,0.020026,0.048009,0.001116,0 .0047,0.005077,0.016771,0.031527,0.005034,0.009442 ,-0.007879,-0.018166,0.004072,0.007027,0.013951,0.000887,-0.010307,0.005753,0.001622,-0.001484,-0.008381,-0.005904,-0.008502
FRA_IA_SouthEast:France_SouthEast_IA2:I19917,0.122 929,0.15436,0.058077,0.008721,0.043085,0.001116,0. 004935,0.000231,0.02127,0.033531,-0.002111,0.012589,-0.021556,-0.004404,0.012893,-0.001326,-0.003781,0.003927,0.000628,-0.004252,-0.002995,0.004328,0.002095,-0.003615,0.006466
FRA_IA_SouthEast:France_SouthEast_IA2:I19918,0.117 238,0.144205,0.056568,0.017442,0.045855,0.001952,0 ,0.000692,0.016566,0.031527,0.00406,0.011839,-0.027502,-0.021882,0.008958,-0.001193,-0.00665,0.001774,0.008547,-0.000625,0.001996,0.009645,-0.017501,0.001928,0.003233


Terechte nuancering denk ik. Tegelijk wordt de "overfitting" die er toch al inzat, nog vťťl groter.....
https://i.postimg.cc/1XgSXxBv/Schermafbeelding-2021-12-12-om-08-48-55.png (https://postimg.cc/1VZ27jLF)

Dus tja mmmm.....kunnen we Łberhaupt iets zeggen?

Het valt mij op dat ondanks het postzegelformaat van Nederland de IA samples qua 'affiniteit' alle kanten opvliegen. Sommige hebben meet affiniteit met de vroeg middeleeuwse Germaanse groepen anderen meer met de IA van Engeland. En in z’n algemeenheid blijft de afstand tot de naburige samples groot. Eigenlijk dus geen pijl op te trekken (althans geldt voor mij ;)


https://i.postimg.cc/xXfD28t4/Schermafbeelding-2021-12-12-om-10-29-58.png (https://postimg.cc/xXfD28t4)

Het enige wat je zou kunnen zeggen is dat de Hoogoven man nog het dichtste bij de huidige Nederlandsers zit.

De huidige Nederlanders door de lens van de Nederlandse IA, levert nog steeds relatief grote afstanden op, behalve wellicht voor mijn vader, die weet beneden de 0,02 te blijven.

https://i.postimg.cc/nCyKjSs8/Schermafbeelding-2021-12-12-om-10-39-25.png (https://postimg.cc/nCyKjSs8)


Bij de Germaanse groepen van de vroege middeleeuwen:
https://i.postimg.cc/KKGybNDL/Schermafbeelding-2021-12-12-om-10-55-55.png (https://postimg.cc/KKGybNDL)

lijkt het stukken passender te zijn, de afstand neemt enorm af.

En de hele bubs bij elkaar, doet daar geen afbreuk aan, de 'fit' wordt (tov de Germanen) nauwelijks verbeterd, en de IA'ers lijken er doorgaans niet of nauwelijks meer tussen te komen.
https://i.postimg.cc/r0d4h53X/Schermafbeelding-2021-12-12-om-11-03-50.png (https://postimg.cc/r0d4h53X)


Tja....wat levert dit op? Suggesties:

- de Nederlandse ijzertijd samples zijn niet onder een noemer te vangen, en tonen zowel affiniteit met IA in Engeland als met de latere Germaanse groepen maar in beide gevallen blijft de afstand groot;
- de Hoogovenman is daar wellicht een kleine uitzondering op, lijkt wel Jan modaal avant la lettre....
- de huidige Nederlanders van Noord tot Zuid hebben duidelijk meer met de Germaanse groepen dan met hun voorouders uit de Ijzertijd, zijn deze weggevaagd?
- hier is mijn vader, toevallig ook een Jan ;) wellicht een uitzondering op bij hem is de fit bij de Nederlandse samples al vrij goed, maar goed dat geldt nog in extremere mate bij de Germanen.

....het beeld is voor mij nog niet helemaal duidelijk, wat valt jullie op?

Kellebel
12-12-2021, 05:02 PM
(...) Suggesties:

- de Nederlandse ijzertijd samples zijn niet onder een noemer te vangen, en tonen zowel affiniteit met IA in Engeland als met de latere Germaanse groepen maar in beide gevallen blijft de afstand groot;
- de Hoogovenman is daar wellicht een kleine uitzondering op, lijkt wel Jan modaal avant la lettre....
- de huidige Nederlanders van Noord tot Zuid hebben duidelijk meer met de Germaanse groepen dan met hun voorouders uit de Ijzertijd, zijn deze weggevaagd?
- hier is mijn vader, toevallig ook een Jan ;) wellicht een uitzondering op bij hem is de fit bij de Nederlandse samples al vrij goed, maar goed dat geldt nog in extremere mate bij de Germanen.

....het beeld is voor mij nog niet helemaal duidelijk, wat valt jullie op?

Suggestie nummer 3 is hetgeen mij het eerste opvalt. Gezien de geografie van de (letterlijk) Lage Landen, is het geen verrassing dat volkeren al snel vervangen konden worden. Ik meen me wat te herinneren omtrent ontvolking in de zuidelijke Lage Landen, waardoor de Germanen vrijwel vrij spel hadden, tot aan de huidige taalgrens die dwars door BelgiŽ loopt. (Ten zuiden van deze taalgrens wordt het al gauw minder vlak ťn minder open, en in combinatie met het veel hogere aantal Gallo-Romeinen aldaar, werd dit vervangen toch een heel stuk lastiger.)

Pylsteen
12-12-2021, 05:16 PM
Het zal vermoedelijk ook wel zo zijn dat de middeleeuwse samples dichterbij ons staan dan de oudere, wellicht slokken ze ook een heel deel ijzertijd op.
Daarnaast was er altijd wel immigratie vanuit Duitsland (ten noorden van de rivieren).

Finn
12-12-2021, 05:44 PM
Suggestie nummer 3 is hetgeen mij het eerste opvalt. Gezien de geografie van de (letterlijk) Lage Landen, is het geen verrassing dat volkeren al snel vervangen konden worden. Ik meen me wat te herinneren omtrent ontvolking in de zuidelijke Lage Landen, waardoor de Germanen vrijwel vrij spel hadden, tot aan de huidige taalgrens die dwars door BelgiŽ loopt. (Ten zuiden van deze taalgrens wordt het al gauw minder vlak ťn minder open, en in combinatie met het veel hogere aantal Gallo-Romeinen aldaar, werd dit vervangen toch een heel stuk lastiger.)


Het zal vermoedelijk ook wel zo zijn dat de middeleeuwse samples dichterbij ons staan dan de oudere, wellicht slokken ze ook een heel deel ijzertijd op.
Daarnaast was er altijd wel immigratie vanuit Duitsland (ten noorden van de rivieren).

Die oude Frisii/ kustbewoners waren toch Germanen? :P

Denk dat Pijlsteen wel een punt heeft, wellicht ook de kwaliteit van de samples? Geen idee, zo technisch zit ik er niet in.

De ontvolking was er in het Noorden ook, vooral in het kustgebied, in feite waren met name de terp gebied nog kwetsbaarder, want ontbraken er schakels in "het collectieve verzet tegen het water" dan is het gauw bekeken. Het is bekend dat met name Westergo (meest westelijk deel van Friesland) en het ook bekend dat in Groningen en Drenthe in de Romeinse tijd al een uitbreidingsgebied van de Chauken vormden.
Beneden de rivieren waren denk ik 'uitleggebieden' van met name de Franken. Ik denk trouwens dat het geen massa volksverhuizingen zijn geweest meer infiltraties en vormen van elitemigratie.

Dewsloth
12-13-2021, 05:54 PM
[Apologies for writing in English] I think it was an overlay of cousin populations. You have DF19>Z302 "Jan" in Frisia in Single Grave times, and DF19>DF88 is at its highest population concentrations in the Low Countries even today (the new paper includes DF19>DF88 samples that autosomally look like Jan, so we may learn a lot more here, soon).

Maybe some of the earlier Frisian or Frisian-like populations were already well-integrated into the Franks, Chauci and/or Saxons when "replacement" occurred.

Even in my little subclade (there are six of us at FTDNA), which is otherwise completely German, has a link to the Netherlands in Yfull:
https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Z43162/

Finn
12-13-2021, 06:23 PM
[Apologies for writing in English] I think it was an overlay of cousin populations. You have DF19>Z302 "Jan" in Frisia in Single Grave times, and DF19>DF88 is at its highest population concentrations in the Low Countries even today (the new paper includes DF19>DF88 samples that autosomally look like Jan, so we may learn a lot more here, soon).

Maybe some of the earlier Frisian or Frisian-like populations were already well-integrated into the Franks, Chauci and/or Saxons when "replacement" occurred.

Even in my little subclade (there are six of us at FTDNA), which is otherwise completely German, has a link to the Netherlands in Yfull:
https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Z43162/

No apologies please! No need....

Do you have Jan's G25?

Finn
12-13-2021, 06:25 PM
Suggestie nummer 3 is hetgeen mij het eerste opvalt. Gezien de geografie van de (letterlijk) Lage Landen, is het geen verrassing dat volkeren al snel vervangen konden worden. Ik meen me wat te herinneren omtrent ontvolking in de zuidelijke Lage Landen, waardoor de Germanen vrijwel vrij spel hadden, tot aan de huidige taalgrens die dwars door BelgiŽ loopt. (Ten zuiden van deze taalgrens wordt het al gauw minder vlak ťn minder open, en in combinatie met het veel hogere aantal Gallo-Romeinen aldaar, werd dit vervangen toch een heel stuk lastiger.)


Kan er nog moeilijk soep van koken, ok de West-Friezen staan wat dichter bij de Germanen, maar ruim op afstand. Bij de Nijmegenaren is het spoor helemaal bijster....en de Zeeuw lijkt een "Gaul".

Wie kan er wat over zeggen?

https://i.postimg.cc/gjkRqBm5/Schermafbeelding-2021-12-13-om-19-20-03.png (https://postimg.cc/dkpLJ67m)

Dewsloth
12-13-2021, 06:40 PM
No apologies please! No need....

Do you have Jan's G25?
scaled:
Bell_Beaker_NLD:I5748,0.130897,0.125926,0.058454,0 .082365,0.022466,0.02259,0.00846,0.001615,-0.01309,-0.01877,0.003085,0.000599,-0.00892,-0.020781,0.02253,0.018695,-0.013038,-0.00076,0.001257,0.002001,0.00262,0.000247,0.00542 3,0.008917,0.000838

raw:
Bell_Beaker_NLD:I5748,0.0115,0.0124,0.0155,0.0255, 0.0073,0.0081,0.0036,0.0007,-0.0064,-0.0103,0.0019,0.0004,-0.006,-0.0151,0.0166,0.0141,-0.01,-0.0006,0.001,0.0016,0.0021,0.0002,0.0044,0.0074,0. 0007

Kellebel
12-13-2021, 06:44 PM
Kan er nog moeilijk soep van koken, ok de West-Friezen staan wat dichter bij de Germanen, maar ruim op afstand. Bij de Nijmegenaren is het spoor helemaal bijster....en de Zeeuw lijkt een "Gaul".

Wie kan er wat over zeggen?

https://i.postimg.cc/gjkRqBm5/Schermafbeelding-2021-12-13-om-19-20-03.png (https://postimg.cc/dkpLJ67m)

Wat betreft de Zeeuw, had ik zelf idd ook het gevoel dat deze wellicht meer de kant op ging van de Kelten dan de Germanen, in hoeverre je zoiets Łberhaupt kunt observeren. Maar het is dan wel erg interessant dat vooral jouw vader daar toch relatief veel van scoort - meer dan verwacht, neem ik aan?

Finn
12-13-2021, 07:24 PM
Wat betreft de Zeeuw, had ik zelf idd ook het gevoel dat deze wellicht meer de kant op ging van de Kelten dan de Germanen, in hoeverre je zoiets Łberhaupt kunt observeren. Maar het is dan wel erg interessant dat vooral jouw vader daar toch relatief veel van scoort - meer dan verwacht, neem ik aan?

En hij niet alleen....

https://i.postimg.cc/mg1ypDFS/Schermafbeelding-2021-12-13-om-20-23-06.png (https://postimg.cc/4YZcmXPK)

Finn
12-13-2021, 07:36 PM
scaled:
Bell_Beaker_NLD:I5748,0.130897,0.125926,0.058454,0 .082365,0.022466,0.02259,0.00846,0.001615,-0.01309,-0.01877,0.003085,0.000599,-0.00892,-0.020781,0.02253,0.018695,-0.013038,-0.00076,0.001257,0.002001,0.00262,0.000247,0.00542 3,0.008917,0.000838

raw:
Bell_Beaker_NLD:I5748,0.0115,0.0124,0.0155,0.0255, 0.0073,0.0081,0.0036,0.0007,-0.0064,-0.0103,0.0019,0.0004,-0.006,-0.0151,0.0166,0.0141,-0.01,-0.0006,0.001,0.0016,0.0021,0.0002,0.0044,0.0074,0. 0007

:behindsofa: :crazy:

https://i.postimg.cc/hPT5hp2n/Schermafbeelding-2021-12-13-om-20-33-16.png (https://postimg.cc/zVDjcSm2)

https://i.postimg.cc/yYZTvxRy/Schermafbeelding-2021-12-13-om-20-30-27.png (https://postimg.cc/XpnFvVQr)

Dewsloth
12-13-2021, 07:43 PM
:behindsofa: :crazy:


N/m there are more samples so the average isn't applicable. So Elp I4070 is half SGC/BB "local" and half new pop?

Finn
12-13-2021, 07:57 PM
Het zal vermoedelijk ook wel zo zijn dat de middeleeuwse samples dichterbij ons staan dan de oudere, wellicht slokken ze ook een heel deel ijzertijd op.


Op het eerste gezicht dacht ik: je hebt een punt. Maar vanmiddag dacht ik nee dat lijk me onmogelijk zelfs. Want de samples van de Saksen, Allemannen en en de Beierse exemplaren zijn op verre afstand van Nederland in Duitsland en Engeland gevonden, kleine kans dat ze gemixed zijn met de IA Nederlandse samples. Dus niet opgeslokt.....

Finn
12-13-2021, 08:03 PM
N/m there are more samples so the average isn't applicable. So Elp I4070 is half SGC/BB "local" and half new pop?


No idea what to think about it ....(so:crazy: was aimed at me to be sure). The West Frisian samples seem on distance related to the Germanic samples....but on distance and seem a kind of an "own mutation". The Zeeland sample seems Belgae/Gaul (not weird seen the place Veere, close to Belgium) and the Nijmegen one seems to have a La Tene roots (= confirmed by literature) and the Nijmegen one seems kind of archaic BB ish. My two cents as Mitchell says.

Pylsteen
12-13-2021, 08:46 PM
Op het eerste gezicht dacht ik: je hebt een punt. Maar vanmiddag dacht ik nee dat lijk me onmogelijk zelfs. Want de samples van de Saksen, Allemannen en en de Beierse exemplaren zijn op verre afstand van Nederland in Duitsland en Engeland gevonden, kleine kans dat ze gemixed zijn met de IA Nederlandse samples. Dus niet opgeslokt.....

ach ja; wat we nodig hebben zijn (vroeg-)middeleeuwse Nederlandse samples. Wat betreft de exercities met de ijzertijd-samples, het is nog niet echt duidelijk; we hebben er meer nodig, de kans is te groot dat er ťťn of meer outliers tussen zitten.

Ik heb ooit eens een onderzoekje gedaan naar de herkomst van bruidegoms/bruiden in de Tielerwaard (ca. 1660-1750), de plattelandsstreek streek tussen Gorinchem en Tiel, waar mijn grootvader vandaan komt; vrij dunbevolkt "fly over country", tegelijkertijd langs de rivieren. De resultaten moet ik nog eens uitwerken, maar ter interesse:
~ 73% van de bruidegoms/bruiden kwam uit de Tielerwaard zelf.
~ 7% uit omliggende steden Tiel, Zaltbommel, Gorinchem, Asperen, Heukelum.
~ 6% uit Land van Buren/Culemborg, Neder- en Overbetuwe.
~ 4% uit de Bommelerwaard.
~ 2% uit het Land van Maas en Waal
<1% uit overig Gelderland.
~ 1% uit het Land van Altena
~ 2% uit overig Noord-Brabant (met name Meierij).
~ 2% uit Holland (Alblasserwaard/Vijheerenland en middenklasse uit steden)
~ 1% uit Utrecht
<1% uit overig Nederland
~ 1% uit Duitsland
<1% uit Zuidelijke Nederlanden (dit aantal zal voor 1650 iets hoger hebben gelegen)
<1% uit Groot-BrittaniŽ, Frankrijk en ScandinaviŽ (meestal militairen, een enkele Hugenoot).

De bruidegoms waren iets reislustiger dan de bruiden, al scheelt het niet veel. De percentages zijn ook niet gelijk door de streek heen; het is duidelijk dat de streek vrij soepel overvloeit in de direct omliggende streken.

Het percentage Duits is vrij laag, al is het wel constant, wellicht was dit ook iets hoger in de vroege 17e eeuw, al ontbreken de bronnen uit die periode veelal. De typische achternamen uit de streek (zoals "Van Kleef, "Van Zanten" (< Xanten), "Van Rees", "Van Gelder", "Van Gulik" etc.) laten wel zien dat NRW een belangrijk oorsprongsgebied was.

Ga je verder terug de tijd in, dan heb ik de indruk dat de invloeden met name vanuit Utrecht, Den Bosch, evt. Nijmegen kwamen. Voor de rest lijkt het, als ik afga op belastinglijsten uit ca. 1400, een vrij constante bevolking sinds die periode.

Finn
12-13-2021, 08:56 PM
ach ja; wat we nodig hebben zijn (vroeg-)middeleeuwse Nederlandse samples. Wat betreft de exercities met de ijzertijd-samples, het is nog niet echt duidelijk; we hebben er meer nodig, de kans is te groot dat er ťťn of meer outliers tussen zitten.

Ik heb ooit eens een onderzoekje gedaan naar de herkomst van bruidegoms/bruiden in de Tielerwaard (ca. 1660-1750), de plattelandsstreek streek tussen Gorinchem en Tiel, waar mijn grootvader vandaan komt; vrij dunbevolkt "fly over country", tegelijkertijd langs de rivieren. De resultaten moet ik nog eens uitwerken, maar ter interesse:
~ 73% van de bruidegoms/bruiden kwam uit de Tielerwaard zelf.
~ 7% uit omliggende steden Tiel, Zaltbommel, Gorinchem, Asperen, Heukelum.
~ 6% uit Land van Buren/Culemborg, Neder- en Overbetuwe.
~ 4% uit de Bommelerwaard.
~ 2% uit het Land van Maas en Waal
<1% uit overig Gelderland.
~ 1% uit het Land van Altena
~ 2% uit overig Noord-Brabant (met name Meierij).
~ 2% uit Holland (Alblasserwaard/Vijheerenland en middenklasse uit steden)
~ 1% uit Utrecht
<1% uit overig Nederland
~ 1% uit Duitsland
<1% uit Zuidelijke Nederlanden (dit aantal zal voor 1650 iets hoger hebben gelegen)
<1% uit Groot-BrittaniŽ, Frankrijk en ScandinaviŽ (meestal militairen, een enkele Hugenoot).

De bruidegoms waren iets reislustiger dan de bruiden, al scheelt het niet veel.

Het percentage Duits is vrij laag, al is het wel constant, wellicht was dit ook iets hoger in de vroege 17e eeuw, al ontbreken de bronnen uit die periode veelal. De typische achternamen uit de streek (zoals "Van Kleef, "Van Zanten" (< Xanten), "Van Rees", "Van Gelder", "Van Gulik" etc.) laten wel zien dat NRW een belangrijk oorsprongsgebied was.

Ga je verder terug de tijd in, dan heb ik de indruk dat de invloeden met name vanuit Utrecht, Den Bosch, evt. Nijmegen kwamen. Voor de rest lijkt het, als ik afga op belastinglijsten uit ca. 1400, een vrij constante bevolking sinds die periode.

Ja eens.

Mijn vader komt uit een van oorsprong katholieke Veenkoloniale familie dus daar zitten heel wat linken in richting Emsland, Munsterland. En de VeenkoloniŽn zijn sowieso een Noordelijke mix (Friezen, Groninger Ommelanden, Drenthen etc).

Wat we echter wel kunnen stellen dat ook met de gegevens van de Tielerwaard dat 98% binnen een straal van 100 kilometer, merendeels zelfs binnen 50 kilometer blijft. Vergeleken met de US is dat een grote continuÔteit....

Pylsteen
12-13-2021, 09:05 PM
Wat we echter wel kunnen stellen dat ook met de gegevens van de Tielerwaard dat 98% binnen een straal van 100 kilometer, merendeels zelfs binnen 50 kilometer blijft. Vergeleken met de US is dat een grote continuÔteit....

Het is inderdaad uitermate lokaal allemaal, al zal via de omliggende steden wel wat nieuw bloed binnen zijn gekomen; een soortgelijke streek is volgens mij het Groene Hart, elders in mijn familie, daar zitten nog wel enkele Fransen die via Leiden en Gouda op het platteland terechtkwamen, maar verder lijkt het erop alsof er eeuwen nauwelijks iemand van buiten bij kwam.

Finn
12-13-2021, 09:08 PM
Het is inderdaad uitermate lokaal allemaal, al zal via de omliggende steden wel wat nieuw bloed binnen zijn gekomen; een soortgelijke streek is volgens mij het Groene Hart, elders in mijn familie, daar zitten nog wel enkele Fransen die via Leiden en Gouda op het platteland terechtkwamen, maar verder lijkt het erop alsof er eeuwen nauwelijks iemand van buiten bij kwam.

ja klopt bekend is bijvoorbeeld in de VeenkoloniŽn de doopsgezinde Zwitsers (op de vlucht in 1712).

Pylsteen
12-13-2021, 09:21 PM
Een gebied als Zuid-Holland had natuurlijk een grotere aanzuigende werking; als ik goed herinner had ca 10% van de bevolking rond 1600 een Vlaamse of Antwerpse oorsprong, grotendeels in de stad uiteraard, maar ook een niet verwaarloosbaar gedeelte op het platteland. Daar vind je ook regelmatig van oorsprong katholieke immigranten uit NRW.

CGPF
12-14-2021, 07:49 AM
Een gebied als Zuid-Holland had natuurlijk een grotere aanzuigende werking; als ik goed herinner had ca 10% van de bevolking rond 1600 een Vlaamse of Antwerpse oorsprong, grotendeels in de stad uiteraard, maar ook een niet verwaarloosbaar gedeelte op het platteland. Daar vind je ook regelmatig van oorsprong katholieke immigranten uit NRW.

Een bekend beeld. Mijn betovergrootouders komen allemaal uit Zuid-Holland. Rond 1800 wonen al hun voorouders in Nederland. Rond 1700 is minimaal 6% van mijn voorouders in het buitenland geboren. Die zijn voornamelijk via de steden binnen gekomen. Interessant is verdeling steden versus platteland. Mijn vader's voorouders wonen rond 1850 allemaal in de stad. Die van mijn moeder allemaal op het platteland. Rond 1700 is het percentage buitenlandse voorouders respectievelijk 9,2 % (vader) en 2,8% (moeder). Dat bevestigt dat de immigranten vooral de steden aandeden. De genoemde percentages kunnen wat hoger liggen want van mijn voorouders rond 1700 heb ik 7,4% (ondermeer het gevolg van buitenechtelijke kinderen) niet kunnen achterhalen.

Rond 1700 heeft mijn vader de volgende buitenlandse voorouders Duits 6,8%, Schots 0,8%, Engels 0,8%, Belgisch (Luik) 0,8%.

Interessant is de grote stroom immigranten die in de 17e eeuw Zuid-Holland binnen kwamen. In de periode 1650-1700 zie ik bij mijn voorouders in de steden meer Schotten, Engelsen, Fransen en Duitsers op duiken, maar nog geen Vlamingen. In de periode 1590-1650 (dan vooral aan het begin) zie ik in de steden Vlamingen (vooral uit Antwerpen), Noord-Fransen en Duitsers binnen komen en een enkele Engelsman.

Op het platteland van Zuid-Holland zie ik bij mijn voorouders in de 17e eeuw weinig immigranten. Bij mijn voorouders uit de Alblasserwaard zijn er wel wat immigranten (Duits, Zweeds, Frans, en Schots) maar die zijn allemaal via de garnizoensstad Gorinchem binnengekomen. Gelet op het grote aantal voorouders rond 1650 is hun genetische impact beperkt.

Ik schat dat het percentage buitenlandse voorouders bij mijn moeder rond 1600 rond de 5% ligt en zeker onder de 10%. Bij mijn vader kan dat oplopen tot 15% (of wat meer), maar dat zal ik eens narekenen. Mijn moeder's DNA geeft m.i. dus een goed beeld (maar niet het beeld) van de Zuid-Hollander van voor 1600. Op PCA's is zij spot-on Noord-Nederlands/Deens en Finn liet zien dat zij hoog scoort met Angelen-Saksen. Historisch is dat te plaatsen. De ontginners van grote delen van Zuid-Holland kwamen uit de gebieden van de graaf van Holland en de bisschop van Utrecht. Daar zaten weer grote groepen Friezen (van na 400) tussen en dan is de link met de Angelen-Saksen snel gelegd.

Finn
12-14-2021, 11:36 AM
Een bekend beeld. Mijn betovergrootouders komen allemaal uit Zuid-Holland. Rond 1800 wonen al hun voorouders in Nederland. Rond 1700 is minimaal 6% van mijn voorouders in het buitenland geboren. Die zijn voornamelijk via de steden binnen gekomen. Interessant is verdeling steden versus platteland. Mijn vader's voorouders wonen rond 1850 allemaal in de stad. Die van mijn moeder allemaal op het platteland. Rond 1700 is het percentage buitenlandse voorouders respectievelijk 9,2 % (vader) en 2,8% (moeder). Dat bevestigt dat de immigranten vooral de steden aandeden. De genoemde percentages kunnen wat hoger liggen want van mijn voorouders rond 1700 heb ik 7,4% (ondermeer het gevolg van buitenechtelijke kinderen) niet kunnen achterhalen.

Rond 1700 heeft mijn vader de volgende buitenlandse voorouders Duits 6,8%, Schots 0,8%, Engels 0,8%, Belgisch (Luik) 0,8%.

Interessant is de grote stroom immigranten die in de 17e eeuw Zuid-Holland binnen kwamen. In de periode 1650-1700 zie ik bij mijn voorouders in de steden meer Schotten, Engelsen, Fransen en Duitsers op duiken, maar nog geen Vlamingen. In de periode 1590-1650 (dan vooral aan het begin) zie ik in de steden Vlamingen (vooral uit Antwerpen), Noord-Fransen en Duitsers binnen komen en een enkele Engelsman.

Op het platteland van Zuid-Holland zie ik bij mijn voorouders in de 17e eeuw weinig immigranten. Bij mijn voorouders uit de Alblasserwaard zijn er wel wat immigranten (Duits, Zweeds, Frans, en Schots) maar die zijn allemaal via de garnizoensstad Gorinchem binnengekomen. Gelet op het grote aantal voorouders rond 1650 is hun genetische impact beperkt.

Ik schat dat het percentage buitenlandse voorouders bij mijn moeder rond 1600 rond de 5% ligt en zeker onder de 10%. Bij mijn vader kan dat oplopen tot 15% (of wat meer), maar dat zal ik eens narekenen. Mijn moeder's DNA geeft m.i. dus een goed beeld (maar niet het beeld) van de Zuid-Hollander van voor 1600. Op PCA's is zij spot-on Noord-Nederlands/Deens en Finn liet zien dat zij hoog scoort met Angelen-Saksen. Historisch is dat te plaatsen. De ontginners van grote delen van Zuid-Holland kwamen uit de gebieden van de graaf van Holland en de bisschop van Utrecht. Daar zaten weer grote groepen Friezen (van na 400) tussen en dan is de link met de Angelen-Saksen snel gelegd.

Ik heb een mooie waarbij iedereen die zich met deze discussie bemoeit een relatie heeft! (Zuid Hollandse eilanden, Limburg en Groningen/Drenthe). De vraag is zelfs-wellicht ver gezocht of niet, of we bijvoorbeeld de Germaanse groepen kunnen traceren die mogelijk aan de basis staan van de populaties in diverse Nederlandse regio's!?

Een jaar geleden heeft my heritage bepaalde 'clustertjes' gedefinieerd. Ik wil er een uitlichten die mij wel fascineert.

Noordoost-Nederland en Duitsland (Nedersaksen)
Groep ID: 6389

Kijk je 'onder de motorkap' van dit cluster dan zien we dit, de basis van dit cluster dus rond 1600-1650 is:
https://i.postimg.cc/JnX3GpjJ/Schermafbeelding-2021-12-14-om-12-16-54.png (https://postimages.org/)

Het bijbehorend plaatje 1600-1650:
https://i.postimg.cc/XYZrjpfB/Schermafbeelding-2021-12-14-om-12-19-07.png (https://postimages.org/)

1650-1700
https://i.postimg.cc/3wdVbHHT/Schermafbeelding-2021-12-14-om-12-24-19.png (https://postimages.org/)

1700-1750
https://i.postimg.cc/zXQnFmpW/Schermafbeelding-2021-12-14-om-12-24-48.png (https://postimages.org/)

Dat is in de laatste periode 1950-2000 behoorlijk versmald:
https://i.postimg.cc/Bn8BrZtM/Schermafbeelding-2021-12-14-om-12-27-08.png (https://postimages.org/)picture upload (https://postimages.org/nl/)
https://i.postimg.cc/4d166mFN/Schermafbeelding-2021-12-14-om-12-27-27.png (https://postimages.org/)


Maar goed terug naar de bron.... een cluster die in 1600-1650 oppopt in Oost-Groningen, Oost-Drenthe, Zuid-Holland/Zuid Hollandse eilanden en Zuid-Limburg....(en in aangrenzend Nedersaksen).

Zien wij (en nu begint de interpretatie) hier Germaanse groepen 'Saksen' en 'Franken' die oorspronkelijk aan elkaar verwant waren? Of zien we hier een heel ander verband die juist in de middeleeuwen vorm heeft gekregen, maar ja welk verband dan?

Iemand een suggestie?

Finn
12-14-2021, 12:18 PM
Het zou mij niets verbazen als onder de uiteindelijke paraplu van de Salische Franken er groepen afkomstig uit het Rijn, Weser en Eems gebied hier de "linking pin' in vormen.

De Duitse wikipedia pagina heb ik op dit punt even door Google Translate gehaald:


Salische Franken
Deze zijn klassiek verdeeld in een substam van de Salische Franken die zich in het noordwesten vestigt en een substam van de Rijn-Franken die zich vestigen aan de Midden-Rijn en ten zuiden ervan. Oude Germaanse stammen die op deze manier werden opgenomen in het stammenconglomeraat van de Franken waren onder meer: ​
- Mogelijk de SaliŽrs, waarvan wordt aangenomen dat ze de belangrijkste stam zijn van de Salische Franken, de belangrijkste stam die de naam geeft, maar dit is geenszins zeker.
- Chamaven eerst ten noorden van de Lippe, drongen in de 4e eeuw door tot aan de Maas
- Sugambren, met de ondergroep van de Cugerner op de linker Rijnoever in het Xantengebied naar Krefeld
- Brukten, genoemd in Tacitus, vestigde zich op de Eems en Lippe, nam deel aan de veroveringen van Keulen en Trier
- Chattuari/ Chatten, gevestigd op de bovenste (Nederlandse) Lek, individuele groepen drongen diep in GalliŽ door in de ruimte die later "Hatuyer" werd genoemd
- Tenkerer, oorspronkelijk ten oosten van de Rijn, schoof later op naar de Sieg
- Usipeters, vaak in verband met de Tenkers genoemd, vestigden zich later in de Lahn-vallei
- Ampsivarianen, verdreven door de Chauken uit hun thuisgebieden aan de Eems, migreren naar de Nederrijn
- Chauken, die zich tussen Friezen en Saksen vestigden (waarschijnlijk naamgenoot van de epische "Hugas" in Beowulf) - delen sloten zich mogelijk aan bij de Franken; de meerderheid sloot zich aan bij de Saksen
De Bataven en de UbiŽrs waren slechts gedeeltelijk betrokken bij het ontstaan ​​van de Franken, die al geromaniseerd waren ten tijde van de etnogenese van de Franken en daarom samengingen met de rest van de Gallo-Romeinse bevolking van hun vestigingsgebieden in de Frankische stamvereniging .

Hier komen Germaanse groepen uit de volksverhuizingstijd in Noordoost-Nederland, het rivierengebied (Betuwe, Zuid-Hollandse eilanden) en Zuid Limburg mogelijk samen! Mijn idee voor een betere....

Finn
12-14-2021, 02:19 PM
Een bekend beeld. Mijn betovergrootouders komen allemaal uit Zuid-Holland. Rond 1800 wonen al hun voorouders in Nederland. Rond 1700 is minimaal 6% van mijn voorouders in het buitenland geboren. Die zijn voornamelijk via de steden binnen gekomen. Interessant is verdeling steden versus platteland. Mijn vader's voorouders wonen rond 1850 allemaal in de stad. Die van mijn moeder allemaal op het platteland. Rond 1700 is het percentage buitenlandse voorouders respectievelijk 9,2 % (vader) en 2,8% (moeder). Dat bevestigt dat de immigranten vooral de steden aandeden. De genoemde percentages kunnen wat hoger liggen want van mijn voorouders rond 1700 heb ik 7,4% (ondermeer het gevolg van buitenechtelijke kinderen) niet kunnen achterhalen.

Rond 1700 heeft mijn vader de volgende buitenlandse voorouders Duits 6,8%, Schots 0,8%, Engels 0,8%, Belgisch (Luik) 0,8%.

Interessant is de grote stroom immigranten die in de 17e eeuw Zuid-Holland binnen kwamen. In de periode 1650-1700 zie ik bij mijn voorouders in de steden meer Schotten, Engelsen, Fransen en Duitsers op duiken, maar nog geen Vlamingen. In de periode 1590-1650 (dan vooral aan het begin) zie ik in de steden Vlamingen (vooral uit Antwerpen), Noord-Fransen en Duitsers binnen komen en een enkele Engelsman.

Op het platteland van Zuid-Holland zie ik bij mijn voorouders in de 17e eeuw weinig immigranten. Bij mijn voorouders uit de Alblasserwaard zijn er wel wat immigranten (Duits, Zweeds, Frans, en Schots) maar die zijn allemaal via de garnizoensstad Gorinchem binnengekomen. Gelet op het grote aantal voorouders rond 1650 is hun genetische impact beperkt.

Ik schat dat het percentage buitenlandse voorouders bij mijn moeder rond 1600 rond de 5% ligt en zeker onder de 10%. Bij mijn vader kan dat oplopen tot 15% (of wat meer), maar dat zal ik eens narekenen. Mijn moeder's DNA geeft m.i. dus een goed beeld (maar niet het beeld) van de Zuid-Hollander van voor 1600. Op PCA's is zij spot-on Noord-Nederlands/Deens en Finn liet zien dat zij hoog scoort met Angelen-Saksen. Historisch is dat te plaatsen. De ontginners van grote delen van Zuid-Holland kwamen uit de gebieden van de graaf van Holland en de bisschop van Utrecht. Daar zaten weer grote groepen Friezen (van na 400) tussen en dan is de link met de Angelen-Saksen snel gelegd.

Er is echter nog een ijzer in het vuur, deel 2 dus, want er is een nog een aanverwante Friso-Saksisch cluster, ook in myheritage, die wat meer kustgeorienteerd is, waarbij zuidoost Drenthe en Zuid Limburg buiten beeld vallen en die rond 1600 sterk is in Groningen, het oostelijk deel van Friesland, de kop van Drenthe en Oostfriesland in Duitsland en.....Zuid-Holland (en her in der in Gelderland en Overijssel).

Ik denk dat dit voornamelijk de 'Saksen' van de Noordzeekust zijn geweest die per boot in het naburige kustgebied van Nederland (en de rivieren op) zijn neergestreken (in de volksverhuizingstijd). Mogelijk in Groningen en Noord-Drenthe al tijdens de Romeinse periode.

Het nadrukkelijk verschil met het andere cluster hier zit een duidelijke link in met het huidige Friesland.

Nederland (Groningen, Drenthe en Friesland) en Duitsland (Nedersaksen)
Groep ID: 5097

1600-1650
https://i.postimg.cc/XNcStZ88/Schermafbeelding-2021-12-14-om-15-15-30.png (https://postimages.org/)
https://i.postimg.cc/26twK7t6/Schermafbeelding-2021-12-14-om-15-18-15.png (https://postimages.org/)

Hoogste zoom niveau:
https://i.postimg.cc/1z7mb8rX/Schermafbeelding-2021-12-14-om-15-21-04.png (https://postimg.cc/wtJYmTPY)

Pylsteen
12-14-2021, 02:43 PM
Het zijn natuurlijk wel contemporaine clusters (die dus van recente oorsprong kunnen zijn), waarbij de lichtjes de bekende voorouderlijke plaatsen van de deelnemers weergeven;

om terug te komen op eerdere punten m.b.t. immigratie: ook bij bijv. mijn moeder zie ik geen Duitsers na 1800, maar terug tot de zeventiende eeuw is zij plots 1/8 Duits (grotendeels NRW); misschien is ze wel kwart Duits als ik terug ga tot de hoge middeleeuwen, al is die term van weinig betekenis in die tijd. Dit is echter wel iets om rekening te houden bij de ijzertijd/middeleeuwen modellen.

Finn
12-14-2021, 02:54 PM
Het zijn natuurlijk wel contemporaine clusters (die dus van recente oorsprong kunnen zijn), waarbij de lichtjes de bekende voorouderlijke plaatsen van de deelnemers weergeven;

om terug te komen op eerdere punten m.b.t. immigratie: ook bij bijv. mijn moeder zie ik geen Duitsers na 1800, maar terug tot de zeventiende eeuw is zij plots 1/8 Duits (grotendeels NRW); misschien is ze wel kwart Duits als ik terug ga tot de hoge middeleeuwen, al is die term van weinig betekenis in die tijd. Dit is echter wel iets om rekening te houden bij de ijzertijd/middeleeuwen modellen.

In mijn ogen zijn het geen recente, contemporaine clusters.

Wat wel gebeurt, is dat huidige bepaalde gedeelde segmenten, van personen nu, via een stamboom terug worden getraceerd. Gaat soms om duizenden samples.

Die tracering vindt plaats tot 1600, op zich niet verwonderlijk tot die tijd gaan de meeste archieven in Nederland wel terug, daarvoor wordt het spoorzoeken en meer tricky.

Finn
12-14-2021, 03:02 PM
Het zijn natuurlijk wel contemporaine clusters (die dus van recente oorsprong kunnen zijn), waarbij de lichtjes de bekende voorouderlijke plaatsen van de deelnemers weergeven;

om terug te komen op eerdere punten m.b.t. immigratie: ook bij bijv. mijn moeder zie ik geen Duitsers na 1800, maar terug tot de zeventiende eeuw is zij plots 1/8 Duits (grotendeels NRW); misschien is ze wel kwart Duits als ik terug ga tot de hoge middeleeuwen, al is die term van weinig betekenis in die tijd. Dit is echter wel iets om rekening te houden bij de ijzertijd/middeleeuwen modellen.

Wat het tweede gedeelte betreft, dat hangt er vanaf wanneer Duitsers in je kwartierstaat voorkomen, een Duitser uit de 17 eeuw heeft slechts een minuscuul effect op een huidig persoon.
Bovendien komt het merendeel van de Duitsers ook nog eens uit aangrenzend NW Duitsland. Maakt het allemaal redelijk op de vierkante millimeter...

Pylsteen
12-14-2021, 03:19 PM
1/8 gedurende de 17e en 18e eeuw veespreid onder alle overgrootouders is wel iets meer dan een enkele 17e eeuwse immigrant dus enig effect verwacgt ik wel..

Als ik het in het brede trek, is mijn vraag eigenlijk meer: als je een model wilt gebaseerd op middeleeuwse samples, dan is het wel aardig om een beeld te hebben van de hoeveelheid influx (en reflux) sinds die periode.

Finn
12-14-2021, 03:28 PM
1/8 gedurende de 17e en 18e eeuw veespreid onder alle overgrootouders is wel iets meer dan een enkele 17e eeuwse immigrant dus enig effect verwacgt ik wel..

Als ik het in het brede trek, is mijn vraag eigenlijk meer: als je een model wilt gebaseerd op middeleeuwse samples, dan is het wel aardig om een beeld te hebben van de hoeveelheid influx (en reflux) sinds die periode.

Eens hoor. Ik vind die segmentenaanpak van my heritage dan ook inzichtelijker. Als ik het beeld van my heritage naast een G25 model leg zie ik wel mogelijke verbanden. Werk ik even uit voor mijn ouders.

En het blijft natuurlijk een beetje vestzak broekzak met Germaanse stammen uit NW Duitsland naar Nederland in de volkverhuizingstijd later aangevuld door Duitsers uit hetzelfde gebied. Dat haal je er ook nooit uit. En het is soms nog gecompliceerder mijn overovergrootvader is in Papenburg (Emsland) geboren...een Duitser? Zijn ouders kwam Sappemeer (en daarvoor ook) en zijn moeder had weer oorspronkelijk Emslandse roots. Dus tja in grensgebieden....Volgens mij moeten we daar ook niet blind op fixeren, kom je niet uit, te verweven....

Pylsteen
12-14-2021, 03:45 PM
En het blijft natuurlijk een beetje vestzak broekzak met Germaanse stammen uit NW Duitsland naar Nederland in de volkverhuizingstijd later aangevuld door Duitsers uit hetzelfde gebied. Dat haal je er ook nooit uit.

inderdaad... en dan heb je ook nog de migratie van Hollanders/Vlamingen richting Oost-Duitsland etc. in de hoge middeleeuwen. En Łberhaupt: de staatsgrenzen zijn zodanig aanwezig dat ze begrip van genetische grenzen nogal eens in de weg zitten; loopt (Neder-)Saksen niet gewoon over in Groningen of Overijssel? En "Keulen" in Limburg etc.? Dan hebben misschien de grenzen zoals deze in die tijd lagen iets meer betekenis dan de huidige.

epoch
12-14-2021, 04:22 PM
Het valt mij op dat ondanks het postzegelformaat van Nederland de IA samples qua 'affiniteit' alle kanten opvliegen. Sommige hebben meet affiniteit met de vroeg middeleeuwse Germaanse groepen anderen meer met de IA van Engeland. En in z’n algemeenheid blijft de afstand tot de naburige samples groot. Eigenlijk dus geen pijl op te trekken (althans geldt voor mij ;)

Het enige wat je zou kunnen zeggen is dat de Hoogoven man nog het dichtste bij de huidige Nederlandsers zit.

Hij was toch degene die op zijn buik begraven was? Dat doet me denken dat hij lokaal was. [1] En om een of andere reden gehaat.



- de Nederlandse ijzertijd samples zijn niet onder een noemer te vangen, en tonen zowel affiniteit met IA in Engeland als met de latere Germaanse groepen maar in beide gevallen blijft de afstand groot;


En deze mensen de kinderen die Alan beschreef, die bij andere stammen opgroeiden. Heel Nederland cremeerde in die tijd op deze uitzonderingen na.




- de Hoogovenman is daar wellicht een kleine uitzondering op, lijkt wel Jan modaal avant la lettre....
- de huidige Nederlanders van Noord tot Zuid hebben duidelijk meer met de Germaanse groepen dan met hun voorouders uit de Ijzertijd, zijn deze weggevaagd?
- hier is mijn vader, toevallig ook een Jan ;) wellicht een uitzondering op bij hem is de fit bij de Nederlandse samples al vrij goed, maar goed dat geldt nog in extremere mate bij de Germanen.

....het beeld is voor mij nog niet helemaal duidelijk, wat valt jullie op?

EDIT: Aha. Volgens Sr en O isotopenonderzoek uit de regio, maar niet uit Velsen. Maar dat geldt ook voor Aak!
https://pure.uva.nl/ws/files/45068950/arch_kroniek_NH_2018.pdf
EDIT2: Wat ook kan betekenen dat Aak inderdaad als klein kind bij een andere stam terecht is gekomen.

Pylsteen
12-14-2021, 04:32 PM
O ja, deze zocht ik, uit de studie van Byrne et al (https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.01.01.892513v2)., figuur 2b, affiniteit met omliggende gebieden, misschien is die al voorbijgekomen.

47753

Finn
12-14-2021, 04:45 PM
Hij was toch degene die op zijn buik begraven was? Dat doet me denken dat hij lokaal was. [1] En om een of andere reden gehaat.


Zou kunnen, of corona avant la lettre, triage bij code zwart :biggrin1::behindsofa:
Kan om die reden ook een outsider zijn....


En deze mensen de kinderen die Alan beschreef, die bij andere stammen opgroeiden. Heel Nederland cremeerde in die tijd op deze uitzonderingen na.


Is gissen inderdaad, dit zijn echt de uitzonderingen op de regel, alhoewel inhumatie (via de link die jij ooit bet gedeeld) wel vaker voorkwam m.n rondom Nijmegen (La Tene verhaal) als ik het wel heb tenminste.

epoch
12-14-2021, 04:47 PM
O ja, deze zocht ik, uit de studie van Byrne et al (https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.01.01.892513v2)., figuur 2b, affiniteit met omliggende gebieden, misschien is die al voorbijgekomen.

47753

Zo raar, de Kempen. Er is nog geen Nederzetting gevonden die niet een hiaat had. En dat moet wel met de Franken van doen hebben omdat dat in dezelfde tijd is gedocumenteerd.

epoch
12-14-2021, 04:48 PM
Zou kunnen, of corona avant la lettre, triage bij code zwart :biggrin1::behindsofa:
Kan om die reden ook een outsider zijn....



Is gissen inderdaad, dit zijn echt de uitzonderingen op de regel, alhoewel inhumatie (via de link die jij ooit bet gedeeld) wel vaker voorkwam m.n rondom Nijmegen (La Tene verhaal) als ik het wel heb tenminste.

Ja, Nijmegen en een paar lijkschaduwen in Someren.

Finn
12-14-2021, 04:52 PM
O ja, deze zocht ik, uit de studie van Byrne et al (https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.01.01.892513v2)., figuur 2b, affiniteit met omliggende gebieden, misschien is die al voorbijgekomen.

47753

Ja waarbij ik dus twijfels hebt of je de Angel-Saksische instroom wel in DE en DK kan opdelen....nog steeds is mijn autosomal DNA niet van Deens te onderscheiden....

epoch
12-14-2021, 05:00 PM
Ja waarbij ik dus twijfels hebt of je de Angel-Saksische instroom wel in DE en DK kan opdelen....nog steeds is mijn autosomal DNA niet van Deens te onderscheiden....

Finn Folkwalding had Friezen en Juten als leenheren (Thanes). Hnaef had Deense en Jutische leenheren.

Finn
12-14-2021, 05:14 PM
Finn Folkwalding had Friezen en Juten als leenheren (Thanes). Hnaef had Deense en Jutische leenheren.

Ja en de Franken gebruikten Deens warlords in Friesland. Er is waarschijnlijk een Jutse element in met name Westergo geweest (zie Nicolay).
In mijn geval zijn er wat Friese lijnen (zoals mijn vaderlijke lijn) ik ben toch meer Groninger/Drent, desalniettemin wel een Deense autosomale positie, kan echter niet aan die elite instroom richting Friesland hebben gelegen....dat zou een te 'sterk stukje' zijn.

epoch
12-14-2021, 05:24 PM
O ja, deze zocht ik, uit de studie van Byrne et al (https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.01.01.892513v2)., figuur 2b, affiniteit met omliggende gebieden, misschien is die al voorbijgekomen.

47753

Waar is de grens van "apa"-waternamen? Zoals de Kempische beken (Rosep, Tongelreep, Keersop) en Jisp en Weesp?

Finn
12-14-2021, 06:08 PM
1/8 gedurende de 17e en 18e eeuw veespreid onder alle overgrootouders is wel iets meer dan een enkele 17e eeuwse immigrant dus enig effect verwacgt ik wel..

Als ik het in het brede trek, is mijn vraag eigenlijk meer: als je een model wilt gebaseerd op middeleeuwse samples, dan is het wel aardig om een beeld te hebben van de hoeveelheid influx (en reflux) sinds die periode.

Al eerder veronderstel ik een 'Friso-Saksisch' cluster:
Nederland (Groningen, Drenthe en Friesland) en Duitsland (Nedersaksen)
Groep ID: 5097

en een 'Franco-Saksisch' cluster:
Noordoost-Nederland en Duitsland (Nedersaksen)
Groep ID: 6389

Beide kwamen in Noord Nederland en Zuid-Holland voor, alleen het Friso-Sakische meer prominent ook in het huidige Friesland, Noord-Drenthe en Oost-Friesland en de Franco-Saksische component meer in Zuidoost Drenthe en ook in Zuid-Limburg.

Het is opvallend dat in my heritage bij mijn beide ouders de Friso-Saksische component in de categorie hoog zit, terwijl de Franco-Saksische component bij mijn vader in de categorie hoog zit en bij mijn moeder in de categorie midden.

Zien we dat ook terug in G25. Grosso modo denk ik ja, de Friso-Saksische component komt m.i. het meest overeen met de Saxons en de Franco-Saksische component het meest met de Allemanic, zie hier:

https://i.postimg.cc/146yRR0D/Schermafbeelding-2021-12-14-om-19-03-34.png (https://postimg.cc/146yRR0D)

Zowel in de verdeling als in de distance komen myheritage en G25 denk ik overeen....Mijn moeder heeft eigen alleen de Friso-Saksische component en mijn vader heeft ook een contingent Franco-Saksisch en zit ook dichterbij deze groepen als totaal.

Maar misschien allemaal puur toeval.

Pylsteen
12-14-2021, 06:42 PM
Waar is de grens van "apa"-waternamen? Zoals de Kempische beken (Rosep, Tongelreep, Keersop) en Jisp en Weesp?

Volgens mij is daar geen eenduidige grens voor; het komt overal wel in het Nederlands taalgebied voor; in de Dialectatlas van Nederland staat een kaartje van de apa-namen, google op "prehistorische plaats- en waternamen", met name rond de IJssel en de Vecht, blijkbaar, maar ook verspreid elders.

Finn
12-14-2021, 07:39 PM
Het zijn natuurlijk wel contemporaine clusters (die dus van recente oorsprong kunnen zijn), waarbij de lichtjes de bekende voorouderlijke plaatsen van de deelnemers weergeven;
.

my heritage stelt dit:

Stichter Populaties van Genetische Groepen

Stichter Populaties zijn groepen mensen die eeuwenlang in hetzelfde gebied hebben gewoond en alleen binnen die groep zijn getrouwd. Mogelijk zijn ze als groep gemigreerd. In de loop van de tijd hebben ze unieke genetische kenmerken ontwikkeld.

De afstammelingen van deze stichter populaties hebben DNA-segmenten die verraden dat ze afstammen van de stamvaders en -moeders van de groep. De MyHeritage DNA-test detecteert deze kenmerken. Onze onderzoeksteams konden vervolgens MyHeritage DNA-gebruikers met deze Genetische Groepen associŽren door miljoenen DNA-microsegmenten te identificeren en vast te stellen bij welke Genetische Groepen deze segmenten horen.

Finn
12-15-2021, 04:07 PM
Waar is de grens van "apa"-waternamen? Zoals de Kempische beken (Rosep, Tongelreep, Keersop) en Jisp en Weesp?

Over taal gesproken.

We zien dus eenzelfde genetisch cluster in Noordoost-Nederland (wat later 'Saksisch' is gaan heten) en in het land van Overmaas in Zuid-Limburg.

We zien veel stammen in het gebied tussen IJssel en Eems zich vermoedelijk onder het Frankische banier (c.q. 'warlords') scharen.

En dat dit uit de oude taalkundige doos, over de specifiek taal in Overmaas:

Het is gewaagd van wege L. met des Marez '-sele, als typisch voor de Salisch-Frankische nederzetting te beschouwen. '-sele, komt in Westfalen ten minste in twintig namen voor; dus behooren beide streken samen. In de Rijnzone verdwijnt '-sele,; in 't Rijnland en in 't overige Duitschland bestaat het ook. In ons overgangsgebied ontbreekt het heelemaal. 'Op de saele, onder St.-Martens-Voeren (L. 33, 47, 567) beteekent niet zeker 'zaal,, 'Frankische woonplaats, 'kasteel,(4).
Ik heb -sele, voorgesteld als typisch Salisch, niet tegenover Saksisch, Westfaalsch, maar tegenover Ripuarisch. Ik sluit Salisch-Saksische gemeenschap ten opzichte van -sale dus niet uit. Volgens Petri bestaat '-sele, in de Rijnzone niet, in Rijnland wel; hoe is dat te verstaan? Mansion(5) geeft voor zele de bet. van ‘groot zaalgebouw’ en als voorbeeld Zelem (d.i. Zaalheim) bij Hasselt.
In Overmaas beteekent het klaarblijkelijk zaal, Frankische woonplaats, kasteel in de volgende vormen: op de saele onder St.-Martens-Voeren; mijn twee bewijzen (L. 47, 567) verzwijgt Petri; 1) sale naam van het kasteel bewoond door Reginbert of Reimer in Reginberti vallis of Reimersdaal-Remersdaal (L. 576); 2) op ten sal, woonhuis in het kasteel van Limburg, van 1388 tot 1551 (L. 654).


Een Salisch/ Saksische overeenkomt niet alleen in genetisch cluster maar klaarblijkelijk ook nog qua relicten in de taal....!?

https://www.dbnl.org/tekst/_ver025193901_01/_ver025193901_01_0004.php

Pylsteen
12-16-2021, 07:32 PM
Over taal gesproken.

We zien dus eenzelfde genetisch cluster in Noordoost-Nederland (wat later 'Saksisch' is gaan heten) en in het land van Overmaas in Zuid-Limburg.


Heb je het dan over dat grotendeels Noordoostnederlandse cluster in MH? Ik denk niet dat je te moeilijk hierover moet nadenken; de clusters zijn gebaseerd op moderne samples, die bepaalde segmenten met elkaar delen, dus inderdaad, de clusters zijn zeker enkele eeuwen oud. In dit geval lijken er bepaalde gedeelde segmenten te zijn die het meest voorkomen in het noordoosten. Vervolgens is er een kaart, gebaseerd op de voorouderlijke locaties van mensen, die dit cluster bij zich dragen. En hier zijn m.i. toch wel wat zaken om rekening mee te houden, namelijk de invloed van migratie in de recente tijd, bijv. van het Noordoosten naar de Randstad, maar ook zeker naar Zuid-Limburg (denk aan de mijngebieden). Dit kan er namelijk toe leiden dat een gedeelte van mensen met een Noordelijke herkomst ůůk Limburgse wortels heeft, die niet zoveel met dat noordeiljke cluster te maken hebben, maar die MH gewoon in de kaart invult omdat deze locaties nu eenmaal ook voorkomen in de stamboom van die (gemengde) mensen. MH kan immers niet weten waar precies in de stamboom het segment terugkomt. Als je maar genoeg stambomen over elkaar heen legt, lichten vanzelf bepaalde gebieden meer op dan andere. Dat hier dan ook gebieden tussen zitten die eigenlijk niet met de oorsprong van dit cluster te maken hebben, maar tot andere voorouderlijke gebieden behoren van mensen uit dit cluster, dat is dan maar zo. OP de zelfde wijze licht Londen of Noord-Holland (Amsterdam) in 23andMe vaak op, maar niet omdat het een oorsprongsgebied is, maar een vestigingsgebied.

Finn
12-17-2021, 03:25 PM
Heb je het dan over dat grotendeels Noordoostnederlandse cluster in MH? Ik denk niet dat je te moeilijk hierover moet nadenken; de clusters zijn gebaseerd op moderne samples, die bepaalde segmenten met elkaar delen, dus inderdaad, de clusters zijn zeker enkele eeuwen oud. In dit geval lijken er bepaalde gedeelde segmenten te zijn die het meest voorkomen in het noordoosten. Vervolgens is er een kaart, gebaseerd op de voorouderlijke locaties van mensen, die dit cluster bij zich dragen. En hier zijn m.i. toch wel wat zaken om rekening mee te houden, namelijk de invloed van migratie in de recente tijd, bijv. van het Noordoosten naar de Randstad, maar ook zeker naar Zuid-Limburg (denk aan de mijngebieden). Dit kan er namelijk toe leiden dat een gedeelte van mensen met een Noordelijke herkomst ůůk Limburgse wortels heeft, die niet zoveel met dat noordeiljke cluster te maken hebben, maar die MH gewoon in de kaart invult omdat deze locaties nu eenmaal ook voorkomen in de stamboom van die (gemengde) mensen. MH kan immers niet weten waar precies in de stamboom het segment terugkomt. Als je maar genoeg stambomen over elkaar heen legt, lichten vanzelf bepaalde gebieden meer op dan andere. Dat hier dan ook gebieden tussen zitten die eigenlijk niet met de oorsprong van dit cluster te maken hebben, maar tot andere voorouderlijke gebieden behoren van mensen uit dit cluster, dat is dan maar zo. OP de zelfde wijze licht Londen of Noord-Holland (Amsterdam) in 23andMe vaak op, maar niet omdat het een oorsprongsgebied is, maar een vestigingsgebied.

Ja klopt is het Noordoostelijke cluster, het opvallende is dat de overlap met Zuid-limburg meer in 1600-1750 zit dan in 1800-1950. Voor Noordelijke arbeiders werkzaam in de steenkolenmijnen van Zuid-Limburg zou je andersom verwachten.

Het lijkt mij niet onlogisch om te veronderstellen dat een contingent Ampsivari (van de Eems, NE Ned overeenkomstig dit cluster) in Zuid-Limburg terecht komt, dat is geen exorbitante theorie is zelfs op wiki terug te vinden, temeer als er ook nog een taalkundige aanwijzing is....

Finn
12-17-2021, 04:55 PM
Heb je het dan over dat grotendeels Noordoostnederlandse cluster in MH? Ik denk niet dat je te moeilijk hierover moet nadenken; de clusters zijn gebaseerd op moderne samples, die bepaalde segmenten met elkaar delen, dus inderdaad, de clusters zijn zeker enkele eeuwen oud. In dit geval lijken er bepaalde gedeelde segmenten te zijn die het meest voorkomen in het noordoosten. Vervolgens is er een kaart, gebaseerd op de voorouderlijke locaties van mensen, die dit cluster bij zich dragen. En hier zijn m.i. toch wel wat zaken om rekening mee te houden, namelijk de invloed van migratie in de recente tijd, bijv. van het Noordoosten naar de Randstad, maar ook zeker naar Zuid-Limburg (denk aan de mijngebieden). Dit kan er namelijk toe leiden dat een gedeelte van mensen met een Noordelijke herkomst ůůk Limburgse wortels heeft, die niet zoveel met dat noordeiljke cluster te maken hebben, maar die MH gewoon in de kaart invult omdat deze locaties nu eenmaal ook voorkomen in de stamboom van die (gemengde) mensen. MH kan immers niet weten waar precies in de stamboom het segment terugkomt. Als je maar genoeg stambomen over elkaar heen legt, lichten vanzelf bepaalde gebieden meer op dan andere. Dat hier dan ook gebieden tussen zitten die eigenlijk niet met de oorsprong van dit cluster te maken hebben, maar tot andere voorouderlijke gebieden behoren van mensen uit dit cluster, dat is dan maar zo. OP de zelfde wijze licht Londen of Noord-Holland (Amsterdam) in 23andMe vaak op, maar niet omdat het een oorsprongsgebied is, maar een vestigingsgebied.

Sterker nog er zit ook een link in met Oost-Vlaanderen. Niet dat ik de pretentie heb dat ik weet hoe de genetische kaarten allemaal geschud zijn, maar ik sluit niet uit, ik acht het zelfs waarschijnlijk dat mensen tussen de Overijsselse Vecht en de Eems onder de banier van Frankische warlords richting Vlaanderen en Limburg zijn gegaan.....

1650-1700:
https://i.postimg.cc/1tp34ZPL/Schermafbeelding-2021-12-17-om-17-51-58.png (https://postimg.cc/XGYbDmr8)

Finn
12-17-2021, 07:41 PM
Toevoeging dit wist ik niet, maar leg dit eens naast het 'genetisch plaatje' hierboven....mmmm:


Hun gebied, ruwweg overeenkomend met Noord-Brabant en Limburg bewesten de Maas in Nederland en Oost-Antwerpen en Noord-Limburg in BelgiŽ....'


https://taaldacht.nl/2013/09/01/namen-van-nederlandse-stammen-texuandri/

Finn
12-17-2021, 09:10 PM
Ja klopt is het Noordoostelijke cluster, het opvallende is dat de overlap met Zuid-limburg meer in 1600-1750 zit dan in 1800-1950. Voor Noordelijke arbeiders in de steenkolen van Zuid-Limburg zou je andersom verwachten.

Het lijkt mij niet onlogisch om te veronderstellen dat een contingent Ampsivari (van de Eems, NE Ned overeenkomstig dit cluster) in Zuid-Limburg terecht komt, dat is geen exorbitante theorie is zelfs op wiki terug te vinden, temeer als er ook nog een taalkundige aanwijzing is....

Pijlsteen in april 2021 heeft Luit van der Tuuk een boek over de Franken geschreven (hij had ook een mooie over de Friezen op zijn naam). In hoofdstuk doet hij uit de doeken uit welke gebieden de Franken afkomstig zijn, voor het lange verhaal zie hoofdstuk 2, de conclusie is wel als je de kaartjes van dit 'genetisch cluster' er bij pakt hebben we hoogstwaarschijnlijk te maken met de Noordoost Nederland influx onder Frankische label. Hij beschrijft ook het andere Noordelijke cluster die hij Anglo-Fries noemt en die hij van dit cluster onderscheidt.

Zie hoofdstuk 2 (https://books.google.nl/books?id=OFAlEAAAQBAJ&pg=PT44&dq=franken+verspreiding+germanen&hl=nl&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiRzZXo2uv0AhWSzaQKHcU_AO4Q6wF6BAgFEAE#v =onepage&q=franken%20verspreiding%20germanen&f=false)

Finn
12-17-2021, 09:44 PM
Elmar Seebold:
https://i.postimg.cc/431xcLPY/Schermafbeelding-2021-12-17-om-22-38-14.png (https://postimg.cc/bGsPcRKP)
https://i.postimg.cc/m2FZj2Vf/Schermafbeelding-2021-12-17-om-22-38-48.png (https://postimg.cc/Xp407WTQ)

https://books.google.nl/books?printsec=frontcover&id=4zPvrGcl5ggC#v=onepage&q&f=false

Pylsteen
12-17-2021, 10:23 PM
Mijn punt is nu juist dat de kaarten zijn gebaseerd op de voorouderlijke plaatsen van individuen, die dus (1) tot meerdere clusters kunnen behoren en (2) dus voorouders uit verschillende streken kunnen hebben; bijv. iemand uit Amsterdam. Dit betekent dat bij het gebruiken van stambomen voor het kaartje, plaatsen worden ingetekend die wel behoren tot individuen die een bepaald cluster hebben, maar dat die plaatsen niet noodzakelijkerwijs tot datzelfde cluster behoren, maar ook tot andere clusters waar die individuen toe behoren. Ik zou dan echt focussen op het primaire kerngebied op het kaartje.
Met betrekking tot de ouderdom van de clusters, twijfel ik of die wel teruggaan tot de Frankische tijd; de hoge middeleeuwen mogelijk wel (bijv. clusters Delfland, Meierij of Groene Hart) maar verder terug kom je toch volgens mij op te kleine (en dus te algemene) segmenten uit.

Finn
12-17-2021, 10:42 PM
Mijn punt is nu juist dat de kaarten zijn gebaseerd op de voorouderlijke plaatsen van individuen, die dus (1) tot meerdere clusters kunnen behoren en (2) dus voorouders uit verschillende streken kunnen hebben; bijv. iemand uit Amsterdam. Dit betekent dat bij het gebruiken van stambomen voor het kaartje, plaatsen worden ingetekend die wel behoren tot individuen die een bepaald cluster hebben, maar dat die plaatsen niet noodzakelijkerwijs tot datzelfde cluster behoren, maar ook tot andere clusters waar die individuen toe behoren. Ik zou dan echt focussen op het primaire kerngebied op het kaartje.
Met betrekking tot de ouderdom van de clusters, twijfel ik of die wel teruggaan tot de Frankische tijd; de hoge middeleeuwen mogelijk wel (bijv. clusters Delfland, Meierij of Groene Hart) maar verder terug kom je toch volgens mij op te kleine (en dus te algemene) segmenten uit.

Dat punt is m.i. niet juist. Die kaartjes gaan alleen over die 'specifieke segmenten' NIET over de mengeling. Tenminste als ik MH mag geloven:


De afstammelingen van deze stichter populaties hebben DNA-segmenten die verraden dat ze afstammen van de stamvaders en -moeders van de groep.


Die twee groepen die Seebold onderscheidt, in samenhang met MH:

I. de 'Anglo-Friese' stichterspopulatie,

Nederland (Groningen, Drenthe en Friesland) en Duitsland (Nedersaksen)
Groep ID: 5097

en

II. de 'Salisch- Frankische' stichterspopulatie bestaande uit 'residu en amalgaam' Frisii, Chamaven, Chauken, Ampsivarii etc =

Noordoost-Nederland en Duitsland (Nedersaksen)
Groep ID: 6389

De verspreiding aan de hand van de kaartjes (met name 1600-1750) is typisch voor de verspreiding van de 'Anglo-Friezen' en de 'Salische-Franken'. Uiteraard was de situatie in 600 AD anders dan in 1600 AD, waarschijnlijk beperkter.

En ik stam bijvoorbeeld van beide stichterspopulaties af (beide hoge waarschijnlijkheid).

Waar klopt mijn redenatie niet?

rafc
12-18-2021, 11:12 AM
II. de 'Salisch- Frankische' stichterspopulatie bestaande uit 'residu en amalgaam' Frisii, Chamaven, Chauken, Ampsivarii etc =

Het is misschien enkel een kwestie van labelling, maar het gebied dat je beschrijft wordt toch altijd geassocieerd met Saksische dialecten? Voor zover dergelijke labels een betekenis hebben zou Salisch-Frankisch veel eerder passen bij een zuidelijker gebied, Rijnland in Duitsland en de streek van de grote Rivieren en Noord-Brabant in Nederland.

Finn
12-18-2021, 11:39 AM
Het is misschien enkel een kwestie van labelling, maar het gebied dat je beschrijft wordt toch altijd geassocieerd met Saksische dialecten? Voor zover dergelijke labels een betekenis hebben zou Salisch-Frankisch veel eerder passen bij een zuidelijker gebied, Rijnland in Duitsland en de streek van de grote Rivieren en Noord-Brabant in Nederland.

Klopt hoor, lees de bovenstaande linken, die gaan er op in.

Seebold gaat er specifiek op in:
https://i.postimg.cc/1X3rtc26/Schermafbeelding-2021-12-18-om-12-31-10.png (https://postimg.cc/yg2Zp9VY)



Wat je zou kunnen zeggen is dat er een schuif heeft plaatsgevonden, Anglo-Frisians (vanuit Schleswig-Holstein) die richting Noord-Nederland trokken (met name Friesland, Groningen, Noord-Drenthe) en de Noordoost Nederlandse Germaanse groepen hebben zich 'her- gegroepeerd' onder Frankische banier en zijn Zuidwestwaards (Brabant, Limburg, BelgiŽ, Noord-Frankrijk) getrokken.

rafc
12-18-2021, 01:35 PM
Klopt hoor, lees de bovenstaande linken, die gaan er op in.

Seebold gaat er specifiek op in:
https://i.postimg.cc/1X3rtc26/Schermafbeelding-2021-12-18-om-12-31-10.png (https://postimg.cc/yg2Zp9VY)



Wat je zou kunnen zeggen is dat er een schuif heeft plaatsgevonden, Anglo-Frisians (vanuit Schleswig-Holstein) die richting Noord-Nederland trokken (met name Friesland, Groningen, Noord-Drenthe) en de Noordoost Nederlandse Germaanse groepen hebben zich 'her- gegroepeerd' onder Frankische banier en zijn Zuidwestwaards (Brabant, Limburg, BelgiŽ, Noord-Frankrijk) getrokken.


Ok, ik begreep het verkeerd blijkbaar, ik dacht dat het label Salisch-Frankisch gebruikt werd voor herkomst uit het huidige Noordoost-Nederland en Nedersaksen.

Finn
12-18-2021, 02:53 PM
Ok, ik begreep het verkeerd blijkbaar, ik dacht dat het label Salisch-Frankisch gebruikt werd voor herkomst uit het huidige Noordoost-Nederland en Nedersaksen.

Dat heb je volgens mij juist heel goed begrepen, het was de "NE Ned/ NW Duitse" input (om het zo maar te noemen) van de Franken. En zoals Seebold het uitdrukt ze spraken een bijbehorende taal. De NE Nederlandse en NW Duitsers die als het ware bleven namen het Saksische label van de nieuwkomers uit Schleswig-Holstein aan.

Finn
12-18-2021, 04:55 PM
Ok, ik begreep het verkeerd blijkbaar, ik dacht dat het label Salisch-Frankisch gebruikt werd voor herkomst uit het huidige Noordoost-Nederland en Nedersaksen.

Er is in dat verband zelfs de volgende theorie (Luit van der Tuuk 2021):

https://i.postimg.cc/m2WzCdFB/Schermafbeelding-2021-12-18-om-17-35-55.png (https://postimg.cc/vDXZdtzN)


Dat is trouwens nu een aanrader om eens te gaan kijken, prachtgebied!

https://waddenland.groningen.nl/zien-doen-beleven-waddenland/natuur/nationaal-landschap-middag-humsterland-2

rafc
12-18-2021, 07:25 PM
Die Seebold hypothese lijkt me toch af te wijken van wat ik meestal lees. Namelijk dat de Frankische identiteit onstond doordat een hele reeks aparte, kleine stammen rond de Rijn een gemeenschappelijke identieit kregen. Dus een ontstaan ter plekke eerder dan afkomst uit het noorden. Uiteraard verschilden ze nog niet veel van taal van andere Germaanse groepen als de Saksen die in dezelfde periode uitkristalliseerden. Genetisch is misschien een ander verhaal als de locals die er voorheen leefden wel erg verschillend waren.

Nu is het duidelijk dat een groep Germaans-sprekers uiteindelijk wel uit het noorden naar de Rijn moeten gemigreerd zijn, maar dan gaat het hoogstens om iets als 'West Germaans sprekers', lang voor er sprake was van SaliŽrs of Franken.

Finn
12-18-2021, 08:00 PM
Die Seebold hypothese lijkt me toch af te wijken van wat ik meestal lees. Namelijk dat de Frankische identiteit onstond doordat een hele reeks aparte, kleine stammen rond de Rijn een gemeenschappelijke identieit kregen. Dus een ontstaan ter plekke eerder dan afkomst uit het noorden. Uiteraard verschilden ze nog niet veel van taal van andere Germaanse groepen als de Saksen die in dezelfde periode uitkristalliseerden. Genetisch is misschien een ander verhaal als de locals die er voorheen leefden wel erg verschillend waren.

Nu is het duidelijk dat een groep Germaans-sprekers uiteindelijk wel uit het noorden naar de Rijn moeten gemigreerd zijn, maar dan gaat het hoogstens om iets als 'West Germaans sprekers', lang voor er sprake was van SaliŽrs of Franken.

Dat is volgens mijn interpretatie niet wat Seebold heeft gezegd. Simpel gesteld komt het er op neer dat de Angelen, Saksen, Juten uit Schleswig Holstein en omgeving gingen uitbreiden naar Noord-Nederland (Friesland, Groningen en Noord-Drenthe). Dat was een nieuwe influx in de vijfde en zesde eeuw. In Westergo Friesland ontmoeten ze een (bijna) verlaten gebied. In Groningen en Noord-Drenthe was dat minder het geval (zie Hugemarki).

De toenmalige bewoners van het Noordoostelijk deel van Nederland in de lijn van Groningen tot aan Gelderland en aangrenzend Duitsland, schaarden zich deels onder de Frankische paraplu. Deze Salische Franken trokken naar de Zuidelijke Nederlanden en naar Noord-Frankrijk.

Dus in het NW waren het de Friezen, een oude naam met een nieuwe populatie, in het NO ging men zich Saksisch noemen (naar de nieuwe indringers) en een deel dreef dus onder de naam Franken naar het Zuidwesten, om daar met de Gallo-Romeinse bevolking te fuseren.

Dat is in de Nederlandse archeologie/ geschiedschrijving, eerder regel dan uitzondering (zie bijvoorbeeld Van der Tuuk 2021).

Finn
12-18-2021, 08:08 PM
Die Seebold hypothese lijkt me toch af te wijken van wat ik meestal lees. Namelijk dat de Frankische identiteit onstond doordat een hele reeks aparte, kleine stammen rond de Rijn een gemeenschappelijke identieit kregen. Dus een ontstaan ter plekke eerder dan afkomst uit het noorden. Uiteraard verschilden ze nog niet veel van taal van andere Germaanse groepen als de Saksen die in dezelfde periode uitkristalliseerden. Genetisch is misschien een ander verhaal als de locals die er voorheen leefden wel erg verschillend waren.

Nu is het duidelijk dat een groep Germaans-sprekers uiteindelijk wel uit het noorden naar de Rijn moeten gemigreerd zijn, maar dan gaat het hoogstens om iets als 'West Germaans sprekers', lang voor er sprake was van SaliŽrs of Franken.


Illustratief, Van der Tuuk (2021):
https://i.postimg.cc/Wh8kf5s4/Schermafbeelding-2021-12-18-om-21-06-49.png (https://postimg.cc/Wh8kf5s4)

Finn
12-19-2021, 01:29 PM
Suggestie nummer 3 is hetgeen mij het eerste opvalt. Gezien de geografie van de (letterlijk) Lage Landen, is het geen verrassing dat volkeren al snel vervangen konden worden. Ik meen me wat te herinneren omtrent ontvolking in de zuidelijke Lage Landen, waardoor de Germanen vrijwel vrij spel hadden, tot aan de huidige taalgrens die dwars door BelgiŽ loopt. (Ten zuiden van deze taalgrens wordt het al gauw minder vlak ťn minder open, en in combinatie met het veel hogere aantal Gallo-Romeinen aldaar, werd dit vervangen toch een heel stuk lastiger.)

Ik heb het eerder gezien, maar kan het niet terug vinden, wat zijn de MyHeritage groepen van jou (w familie) Kellebel?

Kellebel
12-19-2021, 04:03 PM
Ik heb het eerder gezien, maar kan het niet terug vinden, wat zijn de MyHeritage groepen van jou (w familie) Kellebel?

Haaaaaii, excuses voor mijn afwezigheid in de discussie: ik heb het inmiddels weer ongelofelijk druk gekregen, pff!



Mijn groepen:
----------------
Nederland (Limburg en Noord-Brabant), BelgiŽ (Limburg) en Duitsland (Keulen en DŁsseldorf): mijn moeder's kant
Nederland (Zuid-Holland, Noord-Holland, Gelderland en Utrecht): mijn vader's vader's vader's kant
Nederland (Groningen, Drenthe en Friesland) en Duitsland (Nedersaksen): mijn vader's moeder's vader's moeder's kant
Nederland (Rotterdam): mijn vader's moeder's vader's vader's kant
Nederland (Noord-Holland): mijn vader's moeder's moeder's kant

Die van mijn vader (Kae):
-----------------------------
Nederland (Zuid-Holland, Noord-Holland, Gelderland en Utrecht): kan van alles zijn, zie hieronder
Nederland (Groningen, Drenthe en Friesland) en Duitsland (Nedersaksen): zijn moeder's vader's moeder's kant
Nederland (Gelderland en Utrecht): zijn vader's vader's kant
Nederland (Rotterdam): zijn moeder's vader's vader's kant
Nederland (Noord-Holland): zijn moeder's moeder's kant
Nederland (Zuid-Holland): zijn vader's moeder's kant denk ik? Zij komt uit een Franse gemeenschap die voornamelijk gevestigd was in Leiden

Die van mijn moeder (Ella):
-------------------------------
Nederland (Limburg en Noord-Brabant), BelgiŽ (Limburg) en Duitsland (Keulen en DŁsseldorf): beide kanten
Duitsland, Frankrijk (Grand Est), Oostenrijk, Zwitserland, BelgiŽ en Nederland: voornamelijk haar moeder's kant
Nederland (Zuid-Holland, Noord-Holland, Gelderland en Utrecht): geen idee, totaal geen banden mee
Nederland (Noord-Brabant): beide kanten ver weg ergens in de stamboom
Duitsland (Saarland): haar moeder's kant
Duitsland: haar moeder's kant

En mijn moeder's moeder (Pao):
-------------------------------------
Nederland (Limburg en Noord-Brabant), BelgiŽ (Limburg) en Duitsland (Keulen en DŁsseldorf): het overgrote deel van haar afkomst
Duitsland, Frankrijk (Grand Est), Oostenrijk, Zwitserland, BelgiŽ en Nederland: komt overal wel ergens voorbij in haar stamboom
Nederland (Zuid-Holland, Noord-Holland, Gelderland en Utrecht): staat gemarkeerd als "extra genetische groep" - geen idee waarom, ook totaal geen idee hoe deze tussen haar groepen terecht is gekomen, gezien ze totaal geen banden heeft met dit deel van Nederland



Ondanks niet alle groepen er tussen zitten die ik zou verwachten (en dan met name de Franse en Belgische groepen), is het wel leuk om te zien dat vrijwel alle groepen die ze wťl krijgen goed zijn te herleiden, op Nederland (Zuid-Holland, Noord-Holland, Gelderland en Utrecht) van mijn moeder en oma na.

Finn
12-19-2021, 04:51 PM
Haaaaaii, excuses voor mijn afwezigheid in de discussie: ik heb het inmiddels weer ongelofelijk druk gekregen, pff!



Mijn groepen:
----------------
Nederland (Limburg en Noord-Brabant), BelgiŽ (Limburg) en Duitsland (Keulen en DŁsseldorf): mijn moeder's kant
Nederland (Zuid-Holland, Noord-Holland, Gelderland en Utrecht): mijn vader's vader's vader's kant
Nederland (Groningen, Drenthe en Friesland) en Duitsland (Nedersaksen): mijn vader's moeder's vader's moeder's kant
Nederland (Rotterdam): mijn vader's moeder's vader's vader's kant
Nederland (Noord-Holland): mijn vader's moeder's moeder's kant

Die van mijn vader (Kae):
-----------------------------
Nederland (Zuid-Holland, Noord-Holland, Gelderland en Utrecht): kan van alles zijn, zie hieronder
Nederland (Groningen, Drenthe en Friesland) en Duitsland (Nedersaksen): zijn moeder's vader's moeder's kant
Nederland (Gelderland en Utrecht): zijn vader's vader's kant
Nederland (Rotterdam): zijn moeder's vader's vader's kant
Nederland (Noord-Holland): zijn moeder's moeder's kant
Nederland (Zuid-Holland): zijn vader's moeder's kant denk ik? Zij komt uit een Franse gemeenschap die voornamelijk gevestigd was in Leiden

Die van mijn moeder (Ella):
-------------------------------
Nederland (Limburg en Noord-Brabant), BelgiŽ (Limburg) en Duitsland (Keulen en DŁsseldorf): beide kanten
Duitsland, Frankrijk (Grand Est), Oostenrijk, Zwitserland, BelgiŽ en Nederland: voornamelijk haar moeder's kant
Nederland (Zuid-Holland, Noord-Holland, Gelderland en Utrecht): geen idee, totaal geen banden mee
Nederland (Noord-Brabant): beide kanten ver weg ergens in de stamboom
Duitsland (Saarland): haar moeder's kant
Duitsland: haar moeder's kant

En mijn moeder's moeder (Pao):
-------------------------------------
Nederland (Limburg en Noord-Brabant), BelgiŽ (Limburg) en Duitsland (Keulen en DŁsseldorf): het overgrote deel van haar afkomst
Duitsland, Frankrijk (Grand Est), Oostenrijk, Zwitserland, BelgiŽ en Nederland: komt overal wel ergens voorbij in haar stamboom
Nederland (Zuid-Holland, Noord-Holland, Gelderland en Utrecht): staat gemarkeerd als "extra genetische groep" - geen idee waarom, ook totaal geen idee hoe deze tussen haar groepen terecht is gekomen, gezien ze totaal geen banden heeft met dit deel van Nederland



Ondanks niet alle groepen er tussen zitten die ik zou verwachten (en dan met name de Franse en Belgische groepen), is het wel leuk om te zien dat vrijwel alle groepen die ze wťl krijgen goed zijn te herleiden, op Nederland (Zuid-Holland, Noord-Holland, Gelderland en Utrecht) van mijn moeder en oma na.

Geweldig dank je wel!! Scherp beeld.....

Nederland (Zuid-Holland, Noord-Holland, Gelderland en Utrecht), krijgen wij ook....(alle drie). Geen directe linken mee, dus ik denk dat de Nederlandse interactie wel weerspiegeld sinds tenminste de Gouden Eeuw is dit gebied natuurlijk wel de magneet voor interne migratie.

Ik vind MH nog steeds onovertroffen in die genetische groepen, van mijn vrouw wordt zelfs het Paraguay cluster van haar overgrootouders (vaderskant) herkend....

Kellebel
12-19-2021, 04:56 PM
Geweldig dank je wel!! Scherp beeld.....

Nederland (Zuid-Holland, Noord-Holland, Gelderland en Utrecht), krijgen wij ook....(alle drie). Geen directe linken mee, dus ik denk dat de Nederlandse interactie wel weerspiegeld sinds tenminste de Gouden Eeuw is dit gebied natuurlijk wel de magneet voor interne migratie.

Ik vind MH nog steeds onovertroffen in die genetische groepen, van mijn vrouw wordt zelfs het Paraguay cluster van haar overgrootouders (vaderskant) herkend....

Was mijn theorie ook idd!

Pylsteen
12-19-2021, 05:04 PM
Goed, ik heb de volgende van mijn FTdna upload

Rotterdam (moeders kant, al is deze wel vrij algemeen)
Zuidholland/Utrecht/Noordholland/Gelderland (kan vsn alles zijn)
Zuidholland/Utrecht (grootmoeders kant denk ik, maar zij heeft deze dan weer niet)
Gelderland/Utrecht (grootvaders kant)
Noordbrabant (denk zowel grootvaders als moeders kant)
Friesland (komt van mijn bet-betovergrootvader uit Drachten)
Dan nog Nederland/Java en enkele Europees Joodse groepen.

De nieuwere FTdna chip en 23andMe lijken minder groepen op te pikken.

Finn
12-19-2021, 05:22 PM
Goed, ik heb de volgende van mijn FTdna upload

Rotterdam (moeders kant, al is deze wel vrij algemeen)
Zuidholland/Utrecht/Noordholland/Gelderland (kan vsn alles zijn)
Zuidholland/Utrecht (grootmoeders kant denk ik, maar zij heeft deze dan weer niet)
Gelderland/Utrecht (grootvaders kant)
Noordbrabant (denk zowel grootvaders als moeders kant)
Friesland (komt van mijn bet-betovergrootvader uit Drachten)
Dan nog Nederland/Java en enkele Europees Joodse groepen.

De nieuwere FTdna chip en 23andMe lijken minder groepen op te pikken.

Ok, ook scherp, ik zou eigenlijk de Ijzertijd samples er in willen gooien, maar vraag me af of ze de kwaliteit hebben om dat te doen, wellicht met een beginnen.....

Pylsteen
12-19-2021, 05:31 PM
Ok, ook scherp, ik zou eigenlijk de Ijzertijd samples er in willen gooien, maar vraag me af of ze de kwaliteit hebben om dat te doen, wellicht met een beginnen.....

Ik weet niet of ze dat doen, met de nieuwe ftdna chip duurde het ook even, en geconverteerd naar 23andme lukte toen ook niet.

Finn
12-19-2021, 07:55 PM
Mooi opzetje Kellebel, die van 'ons':


Mijn groepen:
----------------
>Hoog<
Nederland (Groningen, Drenthe en Friesland) en Duitsland (Nedersaksen), Anglo-Friezen
Noordoost-Nederland en Duitsland (Nedersaksen), Chauken,Ampsivari, opgegaan in de Saksen/ Salische Franken
Nederland (Zuid-Holland, Noord-Holland, Gelderland en Utrecht), 'centraal Nederlands' algemene delers

>Midden<
Noord-Duitsland, Polen en TsjechiŽ, hun nakomelingen in de Verenigde Staten (Wisconsin, Illinois en Iowa)

>Laag<
Nederland (Rotterdam), interne Nederlandse migratie (naar 'Holland').
Duitsland, Duitsers, nakomelingen in de Noordoostelijke Verenigde Staten en het Midden-Westen van de Verenigde Staten

Die van mijn vader:
-----------------------------
>Hoog<
Noordoost-Nederland en Duitsland (Nedersaksen)
Nederland (Groningen, Drenthe en Friesland) en Duitsland (Nedersaksen)
Nederland (Zuid-Holland, Noord-Holland, Gelderland en Utrecht)

>Midden<
Noord-Duitsland, Polen en TsjechiŽ

>Laag<
Duitsland (Nedersaksen en Noordrijn-Westfalen) en Nederland (Overijssel en Limburg), ik denk wat Veenkoloniale katholieke invloeden.
Duitsland (Nedersaksen) en Nederland (Groningen), nakomelingen in de Verenigde Staten (Iowa, Illinois en enkelen in Minnesota en Nebraska)
Nederland (Friesland), eveneens Veenkoloniale link (veel Friezen, de rechtstreekse vaderlijke lijn komt er ook vandaan)
Nederland (Rotterdam)

Duitsland,nakomelingen in de Noordoostelijke Verenigde Staten en het Midden-Westen van de Verenigde Staten

Die van mijn moeder:
-------------------------------
>Hoog<
Nederland (Groningen, Drenthe en Friesland) en Duitsland (Nedersaksen)
Nederland (Zuid-Holland, Noord-Holland, Gelderland en Utrecht)
Noordoost- en middenwesten van de VS, Engelse en enkele Schotse, Ierse, Duitse en Scandinavische kolonisten in het noordoosten en in het middenwesten van de Verenigde Staten.

>Midden<
Noordoost-Nederland en Duitsland (Nedersaksen)
Nederland (Drenthe, Overijssel en Friesland), Zuidwest Drentse invloed.
Noord-Duitsland, Polen en TsjechiŽ
Engeland, Duitsland, Denemarken en Nederland, hun nakomelingen in de Verenigde Staten en in AustraliŽ
Nederland (Friesland)
Nederland, Duitsland en Engeland, Asjkenazische Joden en Noord-Europeanen in Nederland, Duitsland en Engeland, en enkelen van hun nakomelingen in het noordoosten van de Verenigde Staten, nog een onbekende link.


En mijn vrouw:
-------------------------------------
>Hoog<
Nederland (Rotterdam)
Nederland (Zuid-Holland en Utrecht)
Nederland (Zuid-Holland, Noord-Holland, Gelderland en Utrecht)
Van moederskant, haar opa en oma komen uit Leerdam en Heukelum... dus bull's eye!

>Midden<
Nederland (Gelderland en Utrecht), moederskant
Paraguay, betovergrootouders van vaderskant komen hier vandaan en zijn naar Noord-Frankrijk gegaan.

Finn
12-20-2021, 03:58 PM
Ik heb Lukasz gevraagd een K36 analyse van Aak te maken. Hij komt dicht bij mijn vader.

Aak:
https://i.postimg.cc/bwbH6bCh/Schermafbeelding-2021-12-20-om-10-03-23.png (https://postimages.org/)
https://i.postimg.cc/WbmGRrL6/Schermafbeelding-2021-12-20-om-10-03-38.png (https://postimages.org/)

Finn Dad
https://i.postimg.cc/0NKrvRKR/Schermafbeelding-2021-12-20-om-10-06-11.png (https://postimg.cc/VS1z9hFD)
https://i.postimg.cc/9MV2nvGB/Schermafbeelding-2021-12-20-om-10-06-55.png (https://postimages.org/)

We zagen al dat bij mijn vader (^^^) de oude Frisii, Chauci, Ampsivari, Chamavi, Bructeri, dus de stammen in de IJzertijd en Romeinse tijd in Noord-Nederland en aangrenzend NW Duitsland, hoog scoorde.....Lijkt mij geen toeval.

Finn
12-21-2021, 04:57 PM
Cela me rappelle le ‘Texas sharpshooter fallacy’

https://fr.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sophisme_du_tireur_d%27ťlite_texan

Op zich briljant gevonden, maar is het hier van toepassing?

Ik denk dat je op basis van de MH "founding groups" (dus op basis van gedeelde segmenten in combinatie met archeologische en historische gegevens een heel eind komt. Voorbij het niveau van de optische illusie waar je op schijnt te hinten.

Praktisch voorbeeld de Angel-Saksen in Noord Drenthe. We weten van de archeologie dat langs de Hunze, Midlaren en de Bloemert etc Angelsaksisch aardewerk is gevonden:
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/311028990_De_lege_vierde_eeuw/figures?lo=1
de literatuurlijst is bij goede research goed en omvangrijk aan te vullen.

Die 'founding populatie' van Angel-Saksen heeft ongetwijfeld een inrichtende rol gespeeld bij het dingspil Oostermoer (https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oostermoer). Dat is het grondgebied langs de Hunze.
https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ding_(rechtspraak)

En Hunze Aa is de gemeente, inclusief oude grondgebied oude Oostermoer, die in 1650 er uit spring qua "Angel-Saksich segment" :
https://i.postimg.cc/FK3y4L5g/Schermafbeelding-2021-12-21-om-16-53-34.png (https://postimg.cc/qtBhcg7z)

Het is volstrekt aannemelijk dat mensen die in dat gebied diep geworteld zijn in dit gebied via tal van bloedbanden zijn terug te voeren op de Angelsakische basispopulatie. Dat is zo helder als glas! Ik denk dat van de kwartierstaat van mijn moeder de meeste echt in de kern weer terug komen op dezelfde set stamouders.

Mooi voorbeeld is de aan mijn moeder's gerelateerde familie Alingh die een voorname rol speelde in het dingspil! Ze waren de ette.
https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Etstoel

Wapen Alingh:
https://i.postimg.cc/BL6F3tWd/Schermafbeelding-2021-12-21-om-17-38-44.png (https://postimg.cc/BL6F3tWd)
https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jan_Alingh_(1702-1784)
http://www.homanfree.nl/aling2/aling-frm2.htm

Bij die ALingh zaten zeker oude lijnen dus dat moet wel voor een continuering van de segmenten van de oude Angel-Saksen hebben gezorgd.

Dit is even in een luttele vijf minuten opgesteld en het is al volstrekt aannemelijk te maken.....tenzij.....waar gaat mijn redenatie mank en hallucineer ik slechts....

Pylsteen
12-21-2021, 05:29 PM
Dat deze (op moderne gedeelde segmenten) groepen duiden op verwantschap in het verleden, is evident. De ouderdom hangt m.i. wel sterk af van (naast effecten van endogamie zoals vissersdorpen) hoe groot de segmenten gebruikt door het algoritme zijn. Bij 7cM zit je uiterlijk in de middeleeuwen, bij 1-3 cM kom je evt. wel voor Chr., (zie Byrne), alleen loop je dan wel het risico dat het niet om IBD gaat, en heb ik toch echt de indruk dat er meer "uitvloeiing" naar omliggende gebieden was.

Finn
12-21-2021, 06:33 PM
Dat deze (op moderne gedeelde segmenten) groepen duiden op verwantschap in het verleden, is evident. De ouderdom hangt m.i. wel sterk af van (naast effecten van endogamie zoals vissersdorpen) hoe groot de segmenten gebruikt door het algoritme zijn. Bij 7cM zit je uiterlijk in de middeleeuwen, bij 1-3 cM kom je evt. wel voor Chr., (zie Byrne), alleen loop je dan wel het risico dat het niet om IBD gaat, en heb ik toch echt de indruk dat er meer "uitvloeiing" naar omliggende gebieden was.

Pijlsteen, Noord-Drenthe is natuurlijk een schoolvoorbeeld van 'stocky' (waor bin ai der eene van?) . Natuurlijk was ook daar een zekere nieuwe instroom. Maar beperkt. Het was in feite tot diep in de negentiende eeuw een klein boerenrepubliekje (behoorlijk op zichzelf!). Het is overduidelijk aantoonbaar dat langs de Hunze (de poort naar de Waddenzee, langs de Hondsrug) de Angel-Saksen hun sporen hebben nagelaten.

Na de migratieperiode is er geen enkele demografische shake up geweest in Drenthe. Niet zoals bijvoorbeeld de dertig jarige oorlog in Duitsland etc etc.

Als je een kwartierstaat opstelt en je gaat steeds verder terug kom je vaak dezelfde stamouders tegen. Voor veel inwoners met diepe wortels in een gebied als de Oostermoer is dat absoluut het geval! Dus die segmenten zijn zeer zeker in het Drentse blijven circuleren, kleine wereld, nauwverwante boerenfamilies....

Creatag
12-21-2021, 09:18 PM
De genetische groepen van mezelf, mijn moeder en mijn moeders vader:


Ik:

Nederland (Zuid-Holland, Noord-Holland, Gelderland en Utrecht)
Nederland (Rotterdam)
Nederland (Overijssel en Gelderland)
Nederland (Groningen, Drenthe en Friesland) en Duitsland (Nedersaksen)
Nederland (Zuid-Holland)

Mijn moeder:

Nederland (Zuid-Holland, Noord-Holland, Gelderland en Utrecht)
Nederland (Rotterdam)
Nederland (Overijssel en Gelderland)
Nederland (Groningen, Drenthe en Friesland) en Duitsland (Nedersaksen)
Nederland (Drenthe, Overijssel en Friesland)
Nederland (Gelderland en Utrecht)

Grootvader aan moederskant:

Nederland (Zuid-Holland, Noord-Holland, Gelderland en Utrecht)
Nederland (Rotterdam)
Nederland (Overijssel en Gelderland)
Nederland (Groningen, Drenthe en Friesland) en Duitsland (Nedersaksen)
Nederland (Drenthe, Overijssel en Friesland)
Nederland (Gelderland en Overijssel)

Vanaf FTDNA naar Myheritage geŁpload.

CGPF
12-23-2021, 06:58 AM
De Nederlandse DNA-samples uit "Large-scale migration into Britain etc". De mannen zijn allemaal R1b en de populatie heeft in EBA bijna 60% 'steppe ancestry'.

47816

CGPF
12-23-2021, 07:26 AM
47818

en het overzicht met de steppe ancestry.

ook in de Nederlandse samples neemt de EEF ancestry wat toe sinds de EBA (27%) in MBA-LBA (30%) en de IA (34%).

Finn
12-24-2021, 11:22 AM
Cela me rappelle le ‘Texas sharpshooter fallacy’

https://fr.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sophisme_du_tireur_d%27ťlite_texan


Wanneer we toch met scherp aan het schieten zijn, het idee van Angel-Saksische voorouders in het Drentse waarvan segmenten nog herkenbaar zijn in de huidige bevolking daar, vind ik wel een mooie casus.

Dus nog los dat er aantoonbaar vestigingen van Angel-Saksen zijn geweest, is het ook iets waar genealogie en DNA als het ware samenkomen.

Want we hebben hier ook te maken met de effecten van kwartierverlies of, met meer dramatiek, in het Engels: pedigree collapse.

Daarmee wordt bedoeld dat als we generaties teruggaan we dezelfde voorouders meerdere keren tegen komen.Dat is ook volstrekt logisch want anders zou bij 20 generaties terug al de halve of hele wereldbevolking moeten worden meegenomen.

Natuurlijk zat er over Drenthe geen kaasstolp, niettemin spelen twee dingen een rol:
a. het was van nature een arm gebied, dus geen pull factor (eerder push) qua immigratie;
b. de dorpen werden bevolkt door landbouwers die nauw aan elkaar waren gelieerd (hoog ons kent ons en entre nous).

Dit levert een volgend plaatje op:
https://i.postimg.cc/65LXtjFY/Schermafbeelding-2021-12-24-om-10-51-36.png (https://postimages.org/)

We komen hier dus een beperkte set aan voorouders tegen, en in de Drentse setting zouden dat deels heel goed de Angel-Saksen kunnen zijn geweest (waarvoor additioneel bewijs natuurlijk nodig is, maar dat is er).

Aan de basis hebben dus Angelsaksen gestaan die met hun schepen vanuit de Waddenzee stroomopwaarts in de plaatsen langs de Hunze belanden. Het is aannemelijk dat ze vanaf de vroege middeleeuwen de lakens hebben uitgedeeld. Dat betekent hogere overlevingskans en meer nageslacht. Evenals met de Vikingen op Ijsland is gebeurd, ik denk dat je die paralellen redelijk kan trekken.

In Zuid-Holland is wellicht iets soortgelijks gebeurd. De omstandigheden zijn echter verschillend. De vraag is of de directe Angel-Saksische influx zo groot is geweest. Holland was in de initiele fase van de Angel-Saksische migratie hoogstwaarschijnlijk helemaal niet zo in trek. Of in de woorden van Dijkstra en De Koning, all quiet on the western front (https://www.academia.edu/36836118/2017._With_M.F.P._Dijkstra_All_Quiet_on_the_wester n_front_The_western_Netherlands_and_the_North_Sea_ Culture_in_the_Migration_Period._In_J._Hines_and_N ._IJssennager_eds._Frisians_and_their_North_Sea_Ne ighbours_From_the_fifth_century_to_the_Viking_age. _p.53-73).....Dus zou zelfs in een vervolgstap (dus Friese kolonisatie) kunnen zijn geweest, maar wellicht heb jij meer oog op Zuid-Holland in de vroege middeleeuwen.

Vergeleken met Drenthe verwacht ik voor het Zuid-Holland platteland meer mobiliteit, niettemin voor het in dat gebied niet onaanzienlijke piŽtistische volksdeel is endogamie zeker een factor (van behoud van segmenten).

En dat alles lijkt me geen schot hagel ;)

CGPF
12-24-2021, 12:09 PM
In Zuid-Holland is wellicht iets soortgelijks gebeurd. De omstandigheden zijn echter verschillend. De vraag is of de directe Angel-Saksische influx zo groot is geweest. Holland was in de initiele fase van de Angel-Saksische hoogstwaarschijnlijk helemaal niet zo in trek. Of in de woorden van Dijkstra en De Koning, all quiet on the western front (https://www.academia.edu/36836118/2017._With_M.F.P._Dijkstra_All_Quiet_on_the_wester n_front_The_western_Netherlands_and_the_North_Sea_ Culture_in_the_Migration_Period._In_J._Hines_and_N ._IJssennager_eds._Frisians_and_their_North_Sea_Ne ighbours_From_the_fifth_century_to_the_Viking_age. _p.53-73).....Dus zou zelfs in een vervolgstap (dus Friese kolonisatie) kunnen zijn geweest, maar wellicht heb jij meer oog op Zuid-Holland in de vroege middeleeuwen.


De door jou genoemde vervolgstap van de Friese kolonisatie in Holland is waarschijnlijk een belangrijke factor geweest in de vorming van de latere Hollanders vanaf 800-1000 CE. Een directe Angel-Saksische of Scandinavische immigratie kan er op kleine schaal zijn geweest (denk aan het bootgraf aan de Hollandse kust) maar niet echt van belang. De Friese invloed is belangrijker. Maar goed: die waren in oorsprong in belangrijke mate weer Angel-Saksen. In Holland zie je pas serieuze nederzettingen in de Merovingische tijd en vervolgens continuÔteit. Het Belgisch onderzoek m.b.t. Koksijde brengt de Merovingen aldaar in verband met Saksen en andere noordelingen. Hoe het zit met de herkomst van de bewoners van West-Nederland in de Merovingische tijd weet ik niet. Het zal wel een mix zijn geweest van Friezen/Angel-Saksen, volk uit het Rijnland en een paar die-hard Cananefaten.

De Angel-Saksen zullen hun DNA weer ontlenen aan de bevolkingsgroepen die eerder in Noord-Duitsland/ScandinaviŽ woonden. Gelet daarop is het moeilijk om van Angel-Saksisch DNA of clusters te spreken. Zelf zie ik het nut van de MH clusters niet en ik zou daar niet teveel waarde aan willen hechten. Iets anders is wat de herkomst is van de bewoners in Drenthe, die je aanhaalt. Daar kan ik niets zinnigs overzeggen.

CGPF
12-24-2021, 12:10 PM
Voor de liefhebbers:


NLD_Bell_Beaker_Oostwoud:I4068,0.124067,0.120848,0 .071276,0.068476,0.026159,0.029284,-0.003055,0.003461,-0.008181,-0.010934,-0.010718,0.007194,-0.00223,-0.008533,0.035966,0.016706,-0.005085,-0.006461,0.001383,0.013256,0.001123,0.004822,-0.000493,0.015183,-0.006227
NLD_Bell_Beaker_Oostwoud:I4069,0.133173,0.12491,0. 065619,0.07429,0.035391,0.02008,-0.00376,0.003,-0.000614,-0.012574,-0.006658,0.004496,-0.011893,-0.017891,0.020087,0.023468,0.005215,0.00038,0.0008 8,0.008004,0.004243,-0.000618,-0.001232,0.000482,0.003473
NLD_Bell_Beaker_Oostwoud:I4073,0.12862,0.118817,0. 06939,0.070737,0.024312,0.020917,0.00188,0.002077,-0.00859,-0.012939,-0.001461,0.006294,-0.005946,-0.021744,0.030809,0.009149,-0.007432,-0.005701,0.002514,0.008129,0.005116,0.006554,-0.004807,0.008676,-0.000958
NLD_Bell_Beaker_Oostwoud:I4074,0.129758,0.116786,0 .055437,0.083334,0.016618,0.021475,-0.007755,0.002077,-0.015953,-0.014397,-0.006658,0.005695,-0.009217,-0.011836,0.027416,0.012994,-0.002477,-0.000633,0.002765,0.01038,0.008735,0.002597,-0.002958,0.007109,0.000479
NLD_Bell_Beaker_Oostwoud:I4075,0.127482,0.125926,0 .054682,0.073967,0.016311,0.037371,0.00141,0.00553 8,-0.010431,-0.008383,-0.001137,-0.00015,-0.010704,-0.004129,0.020087,-0.009281,-0.014473,-0.00114,-0.001257,0.005002,0.009483,0.007666,-0.002465,-0.002169,0.003832
NLD_Bell_Beaker_Oostwoud:I4076,0.12862,0.121864,0. 064865,0.071383,0.026159,0.019522,0.004935,0.00323 1,-0.007567,-0.016583,-0.009581,-0.003597,-0.00892,-0.016652,0.02348,0.002121,-0.007693,-0.006081,0.000503,0.008004,0.003743,-0.00371,0.009367,0.013857,-0.004431
NLD_Bell_Beaker_Oostwoud:I5748,0.130897,0.125926,0 .058454,0.082365,0.022466,0.02259,0.00846,0.001615 ,-0.01309,-0.01877,0.003085,0.000599,-0.00892,-0.020781,0.02253,0.018695,-0.013038,-0.00076,0.001257,0.002001,0.00262,0.000247,0.00542 3,0.008917,0.000838
NLD_Bell_Beaker_Oostwoud:I5750,0.125205,0.127957,0 .061848,0.06137,0.028928,0.023148,0.00188,0.005769 ,-0.001227,-0.011481,-0.007957,0.002847,-0.007136,-0.015138,0.021172,0.006232,-0.00339,0.002787,0.001885,0.003126,0.011729,0.0039 57,-0.001109,-0.002892,-0.000718
NLD_EBA_Tuithoorn:I20063,0.119514,0.116786,0.05807 7,0.065569,0.018157,0.034304,0.007285,0.013846,-0.010226,-0.022415,0.000162,0.002248,0.006987,-0.024634,0.013708,0.02254,0.004563,-0.005701,0.001885,0.01138,-0.000125,0.007419,0.010353,0.017954,0.00479
NLD_EIA_Nijmegen:I12905,0.124067,0.126941,0.059585 ,0.067184,0.048009,0.014223,0.01081,0.010615,-0.003681,-0.010205,-0.007307,-0.001499,-0.023042,-0.021469,0.041666,0.013259,-0.001173,-0.00076,-0.008296,-0.010005,0.00836,0.005688,0.003574,-0.008314,0.011137
NLD_LBA_Westwoud:I11971,0.127482,0.120848,0.068636 ,0.066861,0.030467,0.01757,0.009635,0.004615,-0.003477,-0.014214,0.00341,0.002548,-0.009663,-0.012799,0.018458,0.002121,-0.007562,-0.000127,-0.00352,0.00075,0.001747,0.006183,0.003204,0.01988 2,0.000599
NLD_LBA_Bovenkarspel:I20062,0.12862,0.126941,0.073 916,0.072029,0.036314,0.027331,0.00423,0.004846,0. 002863,-0.017495,0.000325,0.009741,-0.019772,-0.028901,0.031759,0.003978,-0.006389,0.006334,0.001508,0.004002,0.004243,0.006 059,0.004437,0.015665,-0.002395
NLD_LIA_Uitgeest:I17750,0.133173,0.123895,0.070144 ,0.048773,0.038469,0.016733,0.009635,0.001615,-0.003272,-0.010387,-0.010393,0.006594,-0.016055,-0.007294,0.018729,0.017767,0.007432,0.001774,0.007 416,0.005253,0.004866,0.003215,0.010723,0.018195,-0.003473
NLD_LNB_Bell_Beaker_Ottoland:I13028,0.122929,0.117 801,0.058831,0.074613,0.022773,0.017012,0.007285,0 .006461,-0.003886,-0.020046,0.003085,0.010041,-0.005352,-0.01734,0.02253,0.008088,-0.010952,-0.00038,-0.005405,-0.006753,0.001123,0.007543,-0.000986,0.006627,-0.005389
NLD_LNB_EBA_Bell_Beaker_Molenaarsgraaf:I13025,0.12 2929,0.120848,0.068636,0.068799,0.028928,0.031515, 0.00188,0.003461,-0.003272,-0.01877,-0.005359,0.003147,-0.004906,-0.000275,0.021851,-0.003447,-0.017732,0.006841,-0.002137,0.004502,0.008859,0.003586,-0.003328,0.00241,-0.003712
NLD_LNB_EBA_Bell_Beaker_Molenaarsgraaf:I13027,0.11 9514,0.120848,0.062602,0.070091,0.024004,0.023706, 0.00846,0.009923,-0.005113,-0.015126,-0.004547,0.001349,-0.001635,-0.022157,0.02348,0.010872,0.00013,-0.007981,-0.005531,0.001376,0.007986,0.001731,-0.00419,0.002651,-0.005868
NLD_MBA_LBA_Hoogkarspel:I11629,0.12862,0.131003,0. 056945,0.077843,0.030775,0.026774,0.006815,0.00715 4,0.006749,-0.012028,-0.00341,0.008992,-0.016501,-0.024222,0.045059,0.01843,0.008605,-0.00228,0.01257,0.008629,0.009982,-0.000247,-0.006162,0.015906,-0.00467
NLD_MBA_LBA_Westwoud:I12083,0.12862,0.129988,0.068 636,0.057494,0.036007,0.025379,0.003995,0.008077,0 .003068,-0.00656,-0.003735,0.002098,-0.014569,-0.009909,0.025108,0.0179,0.002738,-0.000633,-0.000503,0.003001,0.004617,0.004328,-0.000616,-0.001566,0.005868
NLD_MBA_Westwoud:I11972,0.132035,0.129988,0.064111 ,0.073644,0.032621,0.025937,0.007285,0.006692,-0.002045,-0.017677,-0.004872,0.001649,-0.008325,-0.021607,0.024565,0.016176,0.004042,0.005448,0.005 028,0.013632,0.015348,-0.003957,0.005423,0.015544,0.003233
NLD_MBA_Westwoud:I11973,0.129758,0.128972,0.062602 ,0.050711,0.038469,0.017012,0.00564,0.008077,0.004 09,-0.002551,-0.007632,0.007044,-0.00996,-0.003578,0.024701,0.015646,-0.004042,0.00152,0.008925,0.00963,0.010981,0.00148 4,-0.004437,0.011086,0.001078
NLD_MBA_Hoogkarspel:I12081,0.129758,0.132019,0.068 636,0.046189,0.03693,0.009203,0.006345,0.000923,0. 010431,0.001822,-0.007145,0.001798,-0.01665,-0.014313,0.020765,-0.011403,-0.019949,0.004181,-0.000503,-0.004002,0.012353,0.006925,-0.015776,-0.001205,-0.002874
NLD_MBA_Hoogkarspel:I12082,0.126344,0.121864,0.066 373,0.071383,0.030159,0.018128,0.00235,0.002538,-0.005522,-0.008565,-0.006333,0.005245,-0.002825,-0.004679,0.019001,0.01538,-0.002608,0.003167,-0.00088,0.003627,0.006613,0.004946,0.000739,0.0119 29,-0.001078
NLD_MBA_Vlaardingen:I17019,0.132035,0.120848,0.060 339,0.072998,0.030467,0.023985,0.00987,0.007384,-0.005522,-0.013303,-0.001461,-0.004646,-0.010406,-0.016928,0.025651,0.022142,0.012386,-0.002787,0.004148,0.007003,-0.000749,0.006554,0.003328,0.010122,0.003233
NLD_MBA_Wevershoof:I26828,0.121791,0.121864,0.0659 96,0.071383,0.030467,0.02761,0.004465,0.005307,-0.004295,-0.011116,-0.00341,0.001499,-0.007433,-0.014038,0.029994,0.006895,-0.019297,0.0019,-0.005154,0.007003,0.01148,0.006677,0.000739,0.0018 07,0.004311
NLD_MBA_Wevershoof:I26829,0.127482,0.14319,0.05920 8,0.040375,0.047393,0.01004,-0.00517,0.000923,0.015339,0.005285,-0.000325,0.008093,-0.016799,-0.010872,0.017779,-0.01127,-0.01356,0.004687,0.008045,-0.008879,0.007861,0,-0.005546,0.006145,-0.001078
NLD_MBA_Wevershoof:I26830,0.119514,0.12491,0.06222 5,0.065892,0.03416,0.023706,0.01034,0.008769,-0.004295,-0.00656,-0.001461,0.000599,-0.004608,-0.012799,0.028366,0.022938,0.002477,0.002914,-0.002011,0.012506,0.015597,0.003091,0.002835,0.013 978,0.002515
NLD_MBA_Wevershoof:I26831,0.122929,0.131003,0.0848 52,0.072675,0.040315,0.018128,0,0.007846,0.017794,-0.019317,-0.013965,0.009292,-0.011298,-0.009771,0.020358,0.011535,0,-0.001774,0.011439,0.003877,-0.006239,0.008408,0.018487,0.011447,0.000958
NLD_MBA_Wevershoof:I26832,0.130897,0.120848,0.0663 73,0.076551,0.023081,0.0251,0.005405,0.007154,0.00 0205,-0.012757,-0.009581,0.003897,-0.008176,-0.019955,0.029858,0.021347,0.018775,-0.000633,-0.003017,0.008129,0.011979,0.00643,0.004314,0.0053 02,-0.001676
NLD_MIA_LIA_Serooskerke(Veere),0.120652,0.13405,0. 054682,0.041021,0.037545,0.014223,0.010575,0.00553 8,0.003068,0.010934,0.000487,0.016935,-0.003122,-0.004542,0.010722,-0.004906,-0.020079,0.003927,-0.000628,0.011506,0.01148,0.012489,-0.004807,-0.001446,0.006706
NLD_MIA_LIA_Uitgeest(Aak):I12907,0.138864,0.131003 ,0.060716,0.063954,0.038469,0.013666,0.00047,-0.004615,0.005931,-0.007107,0.003085,0.013038,-0.014123,-0.019267,0.032166,0.009414,0.009388,-0.000887,0.008799,0.005878,0.008735,0.011994,-0.005053,0.022172,-0.022393

Finn
12-24-2021, 01:36 PM
De door jou genoemde vervolgstap van de Friese kolonisatie in Holland is waarschijnlijk een belangrijke factor geweest in de vorming van de latere Hollanders vanaf 800-1000 CE. Een directe Angel-Saksische of Scandinavische immigratie kan er op kleine schaal zijn geweest (denk aan het bootgraf aan de Hollandse kust) maar niet echt van belang. De Friese invloed is belangrijker. Maar goed: die waren in oorsprong in belangrijke mate weer Angel-Saksen. In Holland zie je pas serieuze nederzettingen in de Merovingische tijd en vervolgens continuÔteit. Het Belgisch onderzoek m.b.t. Koksijde brengt de Merovingen aldaar in verband met Saksen en andere noordelingen. Hoe het zit met de herkomst van de bewoners van West-Nederland in de Merovingische tijd weet ik niet. Het zal wel een mix zijn geweest van Friezen/Angel-Saksen, volk uit het Rijnland en een paar die-hard Cananefaten.

De Angel-Saksen zullen hun DNA weer ontlenen aan de bevolkingsgroepen die eerder in Noord-Duitsland/ScandinaviŽ woonden. Gelet daarop is het moeilijk om van Angel-Saksisch DNA of clusters te spreken. Zelf zie ik het nut van de MH clusters niet en ik zou daar niet teveel waarde aan willen hechten. Iets anders is wat de herkomst is van de bewoners in Drenthe, die je aanhaalt. Daar kan ik niets zinnigs overzeggen.

Zeker komen die Angel-Saksen uit Schleswig en van de Elbe-Weser driehoek en van Jutland. Die waren blijkbaar als groep duidelijk herkenbaar, dus als groepje kolonisten. Dit staat niet gelijk aan ALLE Angelsaksen en Juten. Zo heeft MH ook een groepen kolonisten in de VS met een verspreide herkomst maar die blijkbaar uiteindelijk wel een groepssegment zijn gaan delen. Dus ze deelden door onderlinge relaties bepaalde segmenten. Het knappe van MH is dat ze het gecombineerd hebben met genealogieŽn, daarvan hebben we in Nederland de mazzel dat er vrij veel goed gedocumenteerd is en van vrij ver terug ook!

Van de Merovingen zou me het niet verbazen, en nu komen we wel op het terrein van speculatie en oude maren, dat ze eerder gerelateerd zijn aan de oude Chauci. Vooral dat laatste omdat hun stamouders in een al dan niet mythisch verband worden gebracht met de Hugas (aka Chauken) op hun terpen in het Humsterland.....

Finn
01-06-2022, 10:38 AM
Wat zegt dit over de Nederlandse situatie?


https://i.imgur.com/4hu3xsp.png

altvred
01-22-2022, 05:46 PM
Hey guys, there are about 260 Belgian samples with G25 coordinates here and Davidski asked if anyone on AG could label and filter them so they could be added to the main spreadsheet.

Any help would be appreciated :).

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1B9OrNmXpVNoKBMB8S7lH7UeKvsbCGAI2/view?usp=sharing

Kellebel
01-23-2022, 11:04 PM
Hallo halloooooo, vraagje aan mijn mede Dutchies: wat zou een betere proxy zijn voor Frankische invloeden in een model? NLD IA of DEU MA Alemannic? Beide en/of anderen misschien?

Edit: oeh, ik zie net dat samples NIEcap3a en NIEcap6 nauw verwant zijn aan het Frankische individu van deze studie (eerstegraads en tweedegraads, respectievelijk).

altvred
01-24-2022, 01:24 PM
Hey guys, there are about 260 Belgian samples with G25 coordinates here and Davidski asked if anyone on AG could label and filter them so they could be added to the main spreadsheet.

Any help would be appreciated :).

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1B9OrNmXpVNoKBMB8S7lH7UeKvsbCGAI2/view?usp=sharing

No takers? Here are their Celtic vs Germanic coordinates in case anyone is interested.

https://pastebin.com/qsbYei8A

https://i.imgur.com/vZylU9V.png

anglesqueville
01-24-2022, 02:40 PM
No takers? Here are their Celtic vs Germanic coordinates in case anyone is interested.

https://pastebin.com/qsbYei8A

https://i.imgur.com/vZylU9V.png

I would be highly interested in their genomic data, for example under the form of a PLINK or EIGEN file. But I'm afraid it's likely hopeless.

xerxez
01-24-2022, 02:58 PM
Hey guys, there are about 260 Belgian samples with G25 coordinates here and Davidski asked if anyone on AG could label and filter them so they could be added to the main spreadsheet.

Any help would be appreciated :).

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1B9OrNmXpVNoKBMB8S7lH7UeKvsbCGAI2/view?usp=sharing

Many thanks ! What help do you need exactly when you say "label and filter" ? You mean to add their region for example ?

Here is where they are located on Europe 1 PCA (green dots). Some of the outliers are clearly Italians ^^ but most of them share the same area than Davidski's samples (red dots). We can also notice that the core overflows a little towards German area compared to Davidski's samples

https://i.imgur.com/OfqizRB.png

altvred
01-24-2022, 03:11 PM
I would be highly interested in their genomic data, for example under the form of a PLINK or EIGEN file. But I'm afraid it's likely hopeless.

There you go. (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1reyS3Il6Sb6uNfrIHA9yV_GiuOhnwUQv/view?usp=sharing)

The overlap with 1240k is 400k SNPs, not ideal but serviceable.

altvred
01-24-2022, 03:18 PM
Many thanks ! What help do you need exactly when you say "label and filter" ? You mean to add their region for example ?

Here is where they are located on Europe 1 PCA (green dots). Some of the outliers are clearly Italians ^^ but most of them share the same area than Davidski's samples (red dots). We can also notice that the core overflows a little towards German area compared to Davidski's samples

https://i.imgur.com/OfqizRB.png
Yeah, there are clearly a bunch of Northern Italians and a dozen or so samples that are intermediate between them and the Northwest French/Belgian/Dutch cluster.

So what I meant by filtering was marking these outliers.

Michalis already picked out the outliers and split them into two groups.

https://i.imgur.com/icdeu8d.png

Ideally, I was hoping to split the main Belgian cluster into one closer to the Southern Dutch and another more typically French one but it's proven to be a rather difficult task.



Belgian_o_(Alpine_Profile):8543229098_R06C02,0.129 758,0.146236,0.04186,0.007752,0.043085,0.002789,0. 00658,-0.000231,0.012271,0.022233,0.000487,0.004496,-0.011893,-0.001239,0.005157,-0.008751,-0.019688,0.000887,0.006788,-0.007128,0.004617,-0.003215,0.002218,0.00735,0.003353
Belgian_o_(Alpine_Profile):8324843038_R05C01,0.121 791,0.149283,0.040729,0.009367,0.038161,0.006972,0 .000705,0.007384,0.008385,0.020228,-0.004872,0.006744,-0.01442,-0.004129,0.000543,0.00305,0.002347,-0.0019,-0.003017,-0.001126,0.006364,-0.001113,-0.001849,0.005181,0.001078
Belgian_o_(Alpine_Profile):5434289051_R03C02,0.128 62,0.146236,0.040352,0.008075,0.033237,0.001394,0. 004465,0.002538,0.007567,0.017312,0.000325,0.00749 3,-0.013379,-0.005505,0.005022,-0.011933,-0.011213,0.005448,0.003268,-0.007379,0.001373,0.001978,-0.004437,0.00482,0.001197
Belgian_o_(Alpine_Profile):8324843130_R02C02,0.125 205,0.145221,0.047517,0.009367,0.033545,0.007251,0 .004935,0.001385,0.009408,0.016037,-0.00341,0.006594,-0.009366,-0.006193,0.002172,0.000398,0.002217,0.004181,0.008 799,-0.008254,0.004243,0.001237,-0.003944,0.006627,-0.000718
Belgian_o_(Alpine_Profile):8324843130_R03C01,0.122 929,0.144205,0.039598,0.005814,0.037853,0.01004,0. 002585,0.006692,0.010431,0.015308,-0.001624,0.005095,-0.012339,-0.010597,0.006922,0.016839,0.016559,-0.003927,0.002765,0.000625,-0.00025,0.000742,-0.001725,0.008073,-0.000599
Belgian_o_(Alpine_Profile):8543229098_R01C02,0.127 482,0.145221,0.036204,0.010982,0.038776,0.004462,0 .00611,-0.000462,0,0.014397,-0.004547,0.006145,-0.01115,-0.000413,0.00095,0.013922,0.016689,0.000253,0.0011 31,0.005753,0.001373,0.003957,-0.002465,0.002651,-0.005269
Belgian_o_(Alpine_Profile):8543229075_R03C02,0.121 791,0.140143,0.041106,0.011305,0.036007,0.003068,-0.00188,0.003923,0.01084,0.014032,0.001786,0.00734 3,-0.011744,-0.008257,0.007193,0.001193,0.004172,-0.001394,0.005782,-0.00025,0.003868,0.000124,-0.005669,0.003494,0.002994
Belgian_o_(Alpine_Profile):8324843130_R05C02,0.125 205,0.139128,0.042615,0.00969,0.033545,0.001394,0. 006815,0.011999,0.008795,0.013303,-0.004547,0.009142,-0.010704,-0.001927,0.008415,-0.009812,-0.014994,0.00152,0.003268,-0.002251,-0.001622,0.006183,-0.002588,-0.000482,-0.003113
Belgian_o_(Alpine_Profile):8327817131_R01C01,0.127 482,0.147252,0.040352,0.01615,0.030467,0.008646,0. 00752,0.008769,0.008999,0.012028,-0.004547,0.007044,-0.008771,0.003441,0.003393,-0.013789,-0.011995,-0.001014,0.003394,0.000125,0.004367,-0.005564,0.002835,0.010122,0
Belgian_o_(Alpine_Profile):8327817141_R01C02,0.122 929,0.137096,0.041106,0.015504,0.040315,0.002231,0 ,0.003461,0.005931,0.010023,-0.004547,0.006594,-0.003122,-0.001927,0.007057,-0.001326,0.001825,0.001267,0.002011,-0.001751,0.002496,0.007914,-0.000123,0.00964,-0.000599
Belgian_o_(Alpine/North_Italian_Profile):8327817131_R06C01,0.125205, 0.147252,0.032809,-0.000323,0.033852,-0.002789,0.001175,0.000231,0.00409,0.018588,0.0056 84,0.010191,-0.00996,0.001514,-0.002307,-0.01074,-0.013038,0.004181,0.003645,-0.004252,-0.00549,0.00272,-0.00419,0.000482,0.001078
Belgian_o_(Alpine/North_Italian_Profile):8324843039_R02C02,0.124067, 0.141159,0.032432,-0.000646,0.037238,0.000837,0.00188,-0.000692,0.003681,0.020593,0.002923,0.010641,-0.015312,-0.003165,0.004479,0.008751,0.006128,0.004814,-0.000251,-0.008254,0.000125,-0.000618,0.001356,0.008194,0.001317
Belgian_o_(Alpine/North_Italian_Profile):8327817122_R05C02,0.126344, 0.149283,0.037712,-0.002261,0.031698,0.004462,0.00047,0.006231,0.0063 4,0.015855,0.000162,0.004196,-0.007136,0,0.012486,-0.007955,-0.015907,0.000507,0.003771,-0.001501,-0.000125,0.008161,0.001356,0.006627,0.00479
Belgian_o_(Alpine/North_Italian_Profile):8327817122_R03C01,0.119514, 0.136081,0.025644,-0.003876,0.029236,-0.007251,-0.000705,-0.000923,0.006545,0.012392,-0.000974,0.003897,-0.002527,-0.005092,0.002443,-0.000265,-0.00339,0.00152,0.003394,0.000875,0.006239,-0.000742,-0.000246,0.007471,0.000479
Belgian_o_(Alpine/North_Italian_Profile):5434289001_R04C02,0.117238, 0.141159,0.024513,0.000323,0.028621,0.005857,0.001 175,-0.000923,0.006954,0.01877,-0.003248,0.002248,-0.013825,0.000688,0.000679,-0.001724,0.002608,-0.00038,0.001885,-0.000875,0.004118,0.000247,-0.002588,0.006989,0.006347
Belgian_o_(Alpine/North_Italian_Profile):5434289058_R01C02,0.129758, 0.149283,0.025267,-0.011951,0.033545,-0.001116,0.002585,-0.002769,0.008385,0.026606,-0.003897,0.003897,-0.008771,-0.006606,-0.005429,0.002121,0.000261,0.005828,0.005656,0.000 25,0.000125,0.003215,-0.007272,0.00482,0.005029
Belgian_o_(Alpine/North_Italian_Profile):5434289074_R04C02,0.121791, 0.145221,0.033941,-0.010982,0.038776,-0.004462,0.00564,0.002538,0.011453,0.017312,-0.001949,0.005995,-0.009663,-0.005505,-0.001086,-0.005436,-0.001695,0.001394,0.006662,-0.003502,0.001996,0.007666,-0.002218,0.007591,-0.001437
Belgian_o_(Alpine/North_Italian_Profile):8324843038_R03C02,0.120652, 0.152329,0.032809,-0.005168,0.038776,-0.004462,0.00658,0.003692,0.012271,0.019681,-0.004709,0.003897,-0.0055,-0.004679,-0.009093,0.002121,-0.000782,0.005194,0.007542,-0.001876,0.000873,-0.001113,-0.001972,-0.001446,0.00491
Belgian_o_(Alpine/North_Italian_Profile):8324843130_R06C02,0.129758, 0.148267,0.029415,-0.008398,0.032621,0,-0.001645,-0.001154,0.00634,0.016219,-0.00341,0.003447,-0.005798,0.000963,-0.004886,-0.004773,-0.01004,0.003294,0.004148,-0.003502,-0.003244,-0.00136,0.003204,0.001928,-0.002994
Belgian_o_(Alpine/North_Italian_Profile):5443804116_R03C02,0.122929, 0.145221,0.035449,-0.003553,0.030159,0.000558,0.00188,-0.000462,0.010022,0.024055,0.000974,0.006594,-0.009068,-0.003165,-0.01045,-0.012596,-0.009518,-0.002027,0.002011,-0.014507,-0.001248,0.004081,-0.003451,0.000843,0.001078
Belgian_o_(Central_European_Profile):5434289093_R0 1C02,0.130897,0.137096,0.053174,0.032946,0.036007, 0.014223,0.01034,0.004154,0.002863,-0.002369,-0.008607,0.001349,-0.002973,0.009221,0.004207,-0.001061,-0.007171,0.006714,0.003268,-5e-04,-0.000125,0.003462,0.004807,0.004097,-0.001437



The origin of the samples is this study by the University of Liege (https://www.ebi.ac.uk/arrayexpress/experiments/E-MTAB-6666/?array=A-MTAB-614).

Finn
01-24-2022, 03:32 PM
Hallo halloooooo, vraagje aan mijn mede Dutchies: wat zou een betere proxy zijn voor Frankische invloeden in een model? NLD IA of DEU MA Alemannic? Beide en/of anderen misschien?

Edit: oeh, ik zie net dat samples NIEcap3a en NIEcap6 nauw verwant zijn aan het Frankische individu van deze studie (eerstegraads en tweedegraads, respectievelijk).

Ai dat is een goede vraag en ook wel een lastige. Ik vind NLD IA aan de ene het meest eigenlijk aan wat je nu vraagt, er vanuit gaande dat de Salische Franken een hoog gehalte NLD IA is. Tegelijk heb ik ook de indruk dat Ijzertijd Zeeland, West-Friesland en Nijmegen in de IJzertijd zoveel deelden, aangezien Nederland wellicht op wat breukvlakken ligt in genetisch opzicht, dus of de grootste gemene IA deler in die zin representatief is.

De Allemannen zou je kunnen nemen maar in hoeverre zijn ze representatief voor de Salische Franken? Dat is wat het zo bij mij oproept.....

xerxez
01-24-2022, 03:32 PM
Yeah, there are clearly a bunch of Northern Italians and a dozen or so samples that are intermediate between them and the Northwest French/Belgian/Dutch cluster.

So what I meant by filtering was marking these outliers.

Michalis already picked out the outliers and split them into two groups.

https://i.imgur.com/icdeu8d.png

Ideally, I was hoping to split the main Belgian cluster into one closer to the Southern Dutch and another more typically French one but it's proven to be a rather difficult task.



Belgian_o_(Alpine_Profile):8543229098_R06C02,0.129 758,0.146236,0.04186,0.007752,0.043085,0.002789,0. 00658,-0.000231,0.012271,0.022233,0.000487,0.004496,-0.011893,-0.001239,0.005157,-0.008751,-0.019688,0.000887,0.006788,-0.007128,0.004617,-0.003215,0.002218,0.00735,0.003353
Belgian_o_(Alpine_Profile):8324843038_R05C01,0.121 791,0.149283,0.040729,0.009367,0.038161,0.006972,0 .000705,0.007384,0.008385,0.020228,-0.004872,0.006744,-0.01442,-0.004129,0.000543,0.00305,0.002347,-0.0019,-0.003017,-0.001126,0.006364,-0.001113,-0.001849,0.005181,0.001078
Belgian_o_(Alpine_Profile):5434289051_R03C02,0.128 62,0.146236,0.040352,0.008075,0.033237,0.001394,0. 004465,0.002538,0.007567,0.017312,0.000325,0.00749 3,-0.013379,-0.005505,0.005022,-0.011933,-0.011213,0.005448,0.003268,-0.007379,0.001373,0.001978,-0.004437,0.00482,0.001197
Belgian_o_(Alpine_Profile):8324843130_R02C02,0.125 205,0.145221,0.047517,0.009367,0.033545,0.007251,0 .004935,0.001385,0.009408,0.016037,-0.00341,0.006594,-0.009366,-0.006193,0.002172,0.000398,0.002217,0.004181,0.008 799,-0.008254,0.004243,0.001237,-0.003944,0.006627,-0.000718
Belgian_o_(Alpine_Profile):8324843130_R03C01,0.122 929,0.144205,0.039598,0.005814,0.037853,0.01004,0. 002585,0.006692,0.010431,0.015308,-0.001624,0.005095,-0.012339,-0.010597,0.006922,0.016839,0.016559,-0.003927,0.002765,0.000625,-0.00025,0.000742,-0.001725,0.008073,-0.000599
Belgian_o_(Alpine_Profile):8543229098_R01C02,0.127 482,0.145221,0.036204,0.010982,0.038776,0.004462,0 .00611,-0.000462,0,0.014397,-0.004547,0.006145,-0.01115,-0.000413,0.00095,0.013922,0.016689,0.000253,0.0011 31,0.005753,0.001373,0.003957,-0.002465,0.002651,-0.005269
Belgian_o_(Alpine_Profile):8543229075_R03C02,0.121 791,0.140143,0.041106,0.011305,0.036007,0.003068,-0.00188,0.003923,0.01084,0.014032,0.001786,0.00734 3,-0.011744,-0.008257,0.007193,0.001193,0.004172,-0.001394,0.005782,-0.00025,0.003868,0.000124,-0.005669,0.003494,0.002994
Belgian_o_(Alpine_Profile):8324843130_R05C02,0.125 205,0.139128,0.042615,0.00969,0.033545,0.001394,0. 006815,0.011999,0.008795,0.013303,-0.004547,0.009142,-0.010704,-0.001927,0.008415,-0.009812,-0.014994,0.00152,0.003268,-0.002251,-0.001622,0.006183,-0.002588,-0.000482,-0.003113
Belgian_o_(Alpine_Profile):8327817131_R01C01,0.127 482,0.147252,0.040352,0.01615,0.030467,0.008646,0. 00752,0.008769,0.008999,0.012028,-0.004547,0.007044,-0.008771,0.003441,0.003393,-0.013789,-0.011995,-0.001014,0.003394,0.000125,0.004367,-0.005564,0.002835,0.010122,0
Belgian_o_(Alpine_Profile):8327817141_R01C02,0.122 929,0.137096,0.041106,0.015504,0.040315,0.002231,0 ,0.003461,0.005931,0.010023,-0.004547,0.006594,-0.003122,-0.001927,0.007057,-0.001326,0.001825,0.001267,0.002011,-0.001751,0.002496,0.007914,-0.000123,0.00964,-0.000599
Belgian_o_(Alpine/North_Italian_Profile):8327817131_R06C01,0.125205, 0.147252,0.032809,-0.000323,0.033852,-0.002789,0.001175,0.000231,0.00409,0.018588,0.0056 84,0.010191,-0.00996,0.001514,-0.002307,-0.01074,-0.013038,0.004181,0.003645,-0.004252,-0.00549,0.00272,-0.00419,0.000482,0.001078
Belgian_o_(Alpine/North_Italian_Profile):8324843039_R02C02,0.124067, 0.141159,0.032432,-0.000646,0.037238,0.000837,0.00188,-0.000692,0.003681,0.020593,0.002923,0.010641,-0.015312,-0.003165,0.004479,0.008751,0.006128,0.004814,-0.000251,-0.008254,0.000125,-0.000618,0.001356,0.008194,0.001317
Belgian_o_(Alpine/North_Italian_Profile):8327817122_R05C02,0.126344, 0.149283,0.037712,-0.002261,0.031698,0.004462,0.00047,0.006231,0.0063 4,0.015855,0.000162,0.004196,-0.007136,0,0.012486,-0.007955,-0.015907,0.000507,0.003771,-0.001501,-0.000125,0.008161,0.001356,0.006627,0.00479
Belgian_o_(Alpine/North_Italian_Profile):8327817122_R03C01,0.119514, 0.136081,0.025644,-0.003876,0.029236,-0.007251,-0.000705,-0.000923,0.006545,0.012392,-0.000974,0.003897,-0.002527,-0.005092,0.002443,-0.000265,-0.00339,0.00152,0.003394,0.000875,0.006239,-0.000742,-0.000246,0.007471,0.000479
Belgian_o_(Alpine/North_Italian_Profile):5434289001_R04C02,0.117238, 0.141159,0.024513,0.000323,0.028621,0.005857,0.001 175,-0.000923,0.006954,0.01877,-0.003248,0.002248,-0.013825,0.000688,0.000679,-0.001724,0.002608,-0.00038,0.001885,-0.000875,0.004118,0.000247,-0.002588,0.006989,0.006347
Belgian_o_(Alpine/North_Italian_Profile):5434289058_R01C02,0.129758, 0.149283,0.025267,-0.011951,0.033545,-0.001116,0.002585,-0.002769,0.008385,0.026606,-0.003897,0.003897,-0.008771,-0.006606,-0.005429,0.002121,0.000261,0.005828,0.005656,0.000 25,0.000125,0.003215,-0.007272,0.00482,0.005029
Belgian_o_(Alpine/North_Italian_Profile):5434289074_R04C02,0.121791, 0.145221,0.033941,-0.010982,0.038776,-0.004462,0.00564,0.002538,0.011453,0.017312,-0.001949,0.005995,-0.009663,-0.005505,-0.001086,-0.005436,-0.001695,0.001394,0.006662,-0.003502,0.001996,0.007666,-0.002218,0.007591,-0.001437
Belgian_o_(Alpine/North_Italian_Profile):8324843038_R03C02,0.120652, 0.152329,0.032809,-0.005168,0.038776,-0.004462,0.00658,0.003692,0.012271,0.019681,-0.004709,0.003897,-0.0055,-0.004679,-0.009093,0.002121,-0.000782,0.005194,0.007542,-0.001876,0.000873,-0.001113,-0.001972,-0.001446,0.00491
Belgian_o_(Alpine/North_Italian_Profile):8324843130_R06C02,0.129758, 0.148267,0.029415,-0.008398,0.032621,0,-0.001645,-0.001154,0.00634,0.016219,-0.00341,0.003447,-0.005798,0.000963,-0.004886,-0.004773,-0.01004,0.003294,0.004148,-0.003502,-0.003244,-0.00136,0.003204,0.001928,-0.002994
Belgian_o_(Alpine/North_Italian_Profile):5443804116_R03C02,0.122929, 0.145221,0.035449,-0.003553,0.030159,0.000558,0.00188,-0.000462,0.010022,0.024055,0.000974,0.006594,-0.009068,-0.003165,-0.01045,-0.012596,-0.009518,-0.002027,0.002011,-0.014507,-0.001248,0.004081,-0.003451,0.000843,0.001078
Belgian_o_(Central_European_Profile):5434289093_R0 1C02,0.130897,0.137096,0.053174,0.032946,0.036007, 0.014223,0.01034,0.004154,0.002863,-0.002369,-0.008607,0.001349,-0.002973,0.009221,0.004207,-0.001061,-0.007171,0.006714,0.003268,-5e-04,-0.000125,0.003462,0.004807,0.004097,-0.001437



The origin of the samples is this study by the University of Liege (https://www.ebi.ac.uk/arrayexpress/experiments/E-MTAB-6666/?array=A-MTAB-614).

Okay I see ! So the label would aim to indicate the genetic profile given that the study does not provide the geographical origins of the ancestors. Indeed, it seems complicated to me to cut the core into two parts. I imagine that in reality a certain number of Flemings and Walloons are more or less dispersed in this core. If I am not mistaken, the samples of this study come a priori from the region of LiŤge, in the east of Wallonia.

On the PCA you posted, where you did you get "Flemish_nord", "French_Ardennes" and "French_Somme" samples ?

Finn
01-24-2022, 03:36 PM
No takers? Here are their Celtic vs Germanic coordinates in case anyone is interested.

https://pastebin.com/qsbYei8A

https://i.imgur.com/vZylU9V.png

Thank you Altvred! Interesting but would be the question to the members? Is it the region Flanders or Wallonia?

anglesqueville
01-24-2022, 03:38 PM
There you go. (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1reyS3Il6Sb6uNfrIHA9yV_GiuOhnwUQv/view?usp=sharing)

The overlap with 1240k is 400k SNPs, not ideal but serviceable.

Too great! I will see if I can integrate them into my MDS. At worst I will impute some of it. Thank you very much.

xerxez
01-24-2022, 03:45 PM
Thank you Altvred! Interesting but would be the question to the members? Is it the region Flanders or Wallonia?

A priori from Liege region, east of Wallonia as it is noted in the study : "323 healthy Europeans visiting the Academic Hospital of the University of LiŤge as part of a national screening campaign for colon cancer", source : https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-018-04365-8

We know the age for every individual, it would be interesting to see if the Belgian core is expanding for the younger generations given the migratory exchanges between regions

altvred
01-24-2022, 03:52 PM
Okay I see ! So the label would aim to indicate the genetic profile given that the study does not provide the geographical origins of the ancestors. Indeed, it seems complicated to me to cut the core into two parts. I imagine that in reality a certain number of Flemings and Walloons are more or less dispersed in this core. If I am not mistaken, the samples of this study come a priori from the region of LiŤge, in the east of Wallonia.

On the PCA you posted, where you did you get "Flemish_nord", "French_Ardennes" and "French_Somme" samples ?

These are samples from Michalis's G25 samples collection. Some of these are of AG users.

Finn
01-24-2022, 05:01 PM
A priori from Liege region, east of Wallonia as it is noted in the study : "323 healthy Europeans visiting the Academic Hospital of the University of LiŤge as part of a national screening campaign for colon cancer", source : https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-018-04365-8

We know the age for every individual, it would be interesting to see if the Belgian core is expanding for the younger generations given the migratory exchanges between regions

Yes indeed interesting! Now I hope the Belgians are satisfied with the Nederlandse Praatbank:biggrin1::beerchug:

anglesqueville
01-24-2022, 05:01 PM
^^ altvred: I've launched an imputation job on the whole file. As the original file is pretty poor I can't guarantee that the result will be very convincing. We'll see.

CGPF
01-24-2022, 06:38 PM
Hallo halloooooo, vraagje aan mijn mede Dutchies: wat zou een betere proxy zijn voor Frankische invloeden in een model? NLD IA of DEU MA Alemannic? Beide en/of anderen misschien?

Edit: oeh, ik zie net dat samples NIEcap3a en NIEcap6 nauw verwant zijn aan het Frankische individu van deze studie (eerstegraads en tweedegraads, respectievelijk).

De aanduiding Franken is een lastige en verschilt per periode. De aanduiding hoeft niet te slaan op een etnische groep of zelfs maar een stammenverband. De oudere vermeldingen zien op stammen die vanuit Romeins perspectief aan de andere zijde van de Rijn verbleven. Een bekende groep ĎFrankení vestigde zich in de huidige Kempen en (later) andere delen van BelgiŽ en (vervolgens) Frankrijk. De ĎFrankení van Karel de Grote hielden een groot rijk onder de duim, maar of hun onderdanen ĎFrankení waren, is een kwestie van definitie. Ik ben dus bang dat er geen goede proxy is voor ĎFrankení.

CGPF
01-24-2022, 06:50 PM
A priori from Liege region, east of Wallonia as it is noted in the study : "323 healthy Europeans visiting the Academic Hospital of the University of LiŤge as part of a national screening campaign for colon cancer", source : https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-018-04365-8

We know the age for every individual, it would be interesting to see if the Belgian core is expanding for the younger generations given the migratory exchanges between regions

The mines in LiŤge attracted a lot of Italian immigrants. This could explain the Italian-Alpine clusters.

Kellebel
01-24-2022, 07:16 PM
No takers? Here are their Celtic vs Germanic coordinates in case anyone is interested.

https://pastebin.com/qsbYei8A

https://i.imgur.com/vZylU9V.png

I tried to play around with PCA plots and distances to my mother and grandmother (who come from the border region between the Netherlands and Belgium in southern Dutch Limburg, my mom actually has some Walloon ancestry from the region of LiŤge), but it's way out of my league to actually analyse them. I was about to advice you that the French forum section would probably be kind and skilled enough to help you along, but it seems some of the French members have already found their way here!

On a sidenote, interestingly, when adding them to the modern individuals sheet, all of our distances are colonized by these new samples:


Distance to: Kellebel_scaled
0.01465411 Belgian:8543229075_R04C01
0.01660604 Belgian:8327817131_R04C01
0.01794344 Belgian:8327817141_R04C01
0.01807851 Belgian:5434289081_R05C02
0.01899018 Welsh:WalesL40
0.01899306 Belgian:8546260098_R05C01
0.01904898 Belgian:8327817141_R01C01
0.01938331 Belgian:5434289058_R05C02
0.01946662 Belgian:5434289001_R03C02
0.01951926 Belgian:8543229075_R04C02
0.01956160 Belgian:5434289058_R04C02
0.01973887 Belgian:8327817122_R04C02
0.01987123 French_Brittany:Rennes_B_46
0.01989577 Belgian:5434289051_R05C01
0.02028371 Belgian:8327817147_R05C02
0.02036164 Belgian:8543229003_R06C01
0.02046758 Belgian:5443804115_R02C02
0.02048996 French_Brittany:Rennes_B_23
0.02061996 Belgian:5434289099_R02C01
0.02066866 Belgian:5434289099_R03C01
0.02068604 Belgian:8324843039_R02C01
0.02068658 Belgian:8327817147_R06C02
0.02079034 Belgian:8543229075_R03C01
0.02086721 Belgian:8324843038_R06C02
0.02091573 Belgian:5434289001_R05C02

Distance to: Ella_scaled (mother)
0.01693731 Belgian:5434289001_R03C02
0.01843417 Belgian:8327817147_R05C02
0.01871190 Belgian:8324843038_R03C01
0.01897227 Belgian:8543229075_R04C01
0.01899353 Belgian:8543229003_R02C01
0.01931477 Belgian:5434289074_R03C02
0.01941356 Belgian:5434289105_R02C01
0.01960485 Belgian:5434289071_R03C01
0.01973837 Belgian:8543229075_R04C02
0.02015196 Belgian:8324843039_R02C01
0.02023242 Belgian:8543229075_R02C01
0.02026278 Belgian:5434289075_R01C01
0.02052881 Belgian:8327817131_R03C01
0.02055358 Belgian:8327817147_R06C02
0.02059503 Belgian:5434289051_R05C01
0.02060011 Belgian:8327817122_R01C01
0.02072878 Belgian:5434289058_R03C01
0.02074973 Belgian:5443804058_R01C02
0.02079424 Belgian:8324843039_R01C02
0.02085803 Belgian:5434289093_R04C02
0.02121104 Belgian:8327817147_R04C02
0.02121185 Swiss_German:Swiss_German5
0.02135930 Belgian:8543229098_R04C01
0.02150451 Belgian:5443804058_R03C02
0.02153524 Belgian:8327817122_R02C02

Distance to: Pao_scaled (maternal grandmother)
0.01488824 Belgian:5434289051_R02C01
0.01669951 Belgian:8324843038_R03C01
0.01812992 Belgian:8324843039_R01C02
0.01821758 French_Pas-de-Calais:French23862
0.01890782 Belgian:8327817147_R06C02
0.01897517 Belgian:8327817131_R04C01
0.01926168 Belgian:5434289075_R01C01
0.01930241 Belgian:8327817141_R01C01
0.02027439 Welsh:WalesL40
0.02029373 Belgian:5434289001_R01C01
0.02032764 Belgian:8543229215_R05C01
0.02035209 Belgian:8543229075_R04C01
0.02039117 Belgian:8327817122_R01C01
0.02064157 Belgian:8543229215_R06C01
0.02090445 Belgian:5434289003_R06C02
0.02107329 Belgian:5434289099_R02C01
0.02113352 Belgian:8324843038_R01C02
0.02118057 Belgian:5434289058_R06C02
0.02120246 Belgian:5434289074_R04C01
0.02129451 Belgian:8543229075_R03C01
0.02133451 Belgian:5434289051_R02C02
0.02136624 Belgian:5434289081_R05C02
0.02151332 Belgian:5434289099_R03C01
0.02153000 Belgian:8327817141_R04C01
0.02156385 Belgian:5443804115_R01C01

Dewsloth
01-24-2022, 07:29 PM
On a sidenote, interestingly, when adding them to the modern individuals sheet, all of our distances are colonized by these new samples:

Yikes! Dad, too. His top 35 moderns are all from the new Belgian pool (the first two non-Belgians are an Afrikaner and one French Nord sample).

Top 5 scaled:
Distance to: DewslothDad_scaled
0.01520479 Belgian:8327817141_R04C02
0.01552407 Belgian:8327817147_R05C02
0.01615906 Belgian:8327817147_R04C02
0.01658429 Belgian:5434289058_R03C01
0.01662937 Belgian:8327817131_R03C01

Kellebel
01-24-2022, 07:34 PM
Ai dat is een goede vraag en ook wel een lastige. Ik vind NLD IA aan de ene het meest eigenlijk aan wat je nu vraagt, er vanuit gaande dat de Salische Franken een hoog gehalte NLD IA is. Tegelijk heb ik ook de indruk dat Ijzertijd Zeeland, West-Friesland en Nijmegen in de IJzertijd zoveel deelden, aangezien Nederland wellicht op wat breukvlakken ligt in genetisch opzicht, dus of de grootste gemene IA deler in die zin representatief is.

De Allemannen zou je kunnen nemen maar in hoeverre zijn ze representatief voor de Salische Franken? Dat is wat het zo bij mij oproept.....


De aanduiding Franken is een lastige en verschilt per periode. De aanduiding hoeft niet te slaan op een etnische groep of zelfs maar een stammenverband. De oudere vermeldingen zien op stammen die vanuit Romeins perspectief aan de andere zijde van de Rijn verbleven. Een bekende groep ‘Franken’ vestigde zich in de huidige Kempen en (later) andere delen van BelgiŽ en (vervolgens) Frankrijk. De ‘Franken’ van Karel de Grote hielden een groot rijk onder de duim, maar of hun onderdanen ‘Franken’ waren, is een kwestie van definitie. Ik ben dus bang dat er geen goede proxy is voor ‘Franken’.

Jullie komen met precies dezelfde vraagstukken die ik ook had inderdaad.. En buiten deze, begin ik me ook zo langzamerhand af te vragen in hoeverre bijvoorbeeld de Nederlandse IA samples Łberhaupt daadwerkelijk deel van onze voorouders waren, gezien de vele volksverhuizingen die daarna nog zijn gekomen. En niet alleen de voorgenoemde samples, maar ook bijvoorbeeld de Kelten in het zuiden en de eventuele Romeinen die er zouden zijn geweest. Zo zijn er ook discussies hier op het forum geweest in hoeverre bijvoorbeeld de Tachtigjarige/Dertigjarige Oorlog invloed heeft gehad op de bevolking in het zuiden. Als ik in mijn eigen stamboom kijk, zijn er maar relatief weinig die honderden jaren op dezelfde plek zijn gebleven, dus laat staan duizenden jaren.

xerxez
01-24-2022, 07:42 PM
I tried to play around with PCA plots and distances to my mother and grandmother (who come from the border region between the Netherlands and Belgium in southern Dutch Limburg, my mom actually has some Walloon ancestry from the region of LiŤge), but it's way out of my league to actually analyse them. I was about to advice you that the French forum section would probably be kind and skilled enough to help you along, but it seems some of the French members have already found their way here!

On a sidenote, interestingly, when adding them to the modern individuals sheet, all of our distances are colonized by these new samples:

Same from my mother (Northern France, close to Valenciennes) :
Distance to: Nord:Xerxez_mother
0.02084672 Belgian:8543229003_R06C02
0.02154860 Belgian:8327817122_R03C02
0.02157061 Belgian:8327817122_R02C02
0.02162552 Belgian:5434289003_R06C02
0.02173116 Belgian:5434289058_R03C01
0.02184069 Swiss_German:Swiss_German5
0.02211703 Belgian:8543229215_R04C01
0.02215053 Belgian:5434289093_R02C02
0.02244592 Belgian:8543229215_R06C01
0.02301387 Belgian:5434289074_R04C01
0.02304965 Belgian:8324843038_R02C01
0.02347212 Belgian:5434289074_R03C01
0.02421046 Belgian:5443804058_R02C01
0.02441157 Belgian:8327817147_R06C02
0.02445535 Belgian:8327817147_R04C02
0.02464304 Belgian:8543229075_R04C02
0.02478282 Belgian:8543229075_R04C01
0.02491648 French_Nord:N_33
0.02493383 Belgian:8327817141_R01C01
0.02506412 Belgian:5443804058_R01C02
0.02512594 Belgian:8543229215_R05C01
0.02532990 Belgian:8327817141_R04C02
0.02536692 Belgian:8324843038_R01C02
0.02543404 Belgian:5434289105_R01C02
0.02559434 Belgian:8324843038_R03C01

and in a lesser extent, for me :
Distance to: Xerxez
0.02352977 Belgian:5434289093_R06C01
0.02477075 Croatian:Croatia_Cro140
0.02487949 Belgian:5434289093_R01C02
0.02571279 Belgian:5443804115_R03C02
0.02578901 Belgian:8546260098_R03C02
0.02589094 Belgian:5443804115_R04C01
0.02629909 Belgian:8543229075_R02C02
0.02654214 Belgian:5434289104_R04C02
0.02658972 Belgian:8546260098_R05C02
0.02679773 French_Alsace:A_27
0.02683165 French_Nord:N_42
0.02702879 Belgian:8324843130_R04C01
0.02704076 Austrian:Austria14
0.02778291 French_Alsace:A_10
0.02780500 Belgian:5434289041_R03C01
0.02786979 Belgian:5434289093_R06C02
0.02805986 Belgian:8327817131_R05C01
0.02889404 Belgian:8327817122_R03C02
0.02891365 Belgian:8324843130_R05C01
0.02902061 Belgian:8327817131_R01C01
0.02905992 German_East:German_East8
0.02908183 Belgian:5434289041_R06C01
0.02909120 Belgian:5443804115_R04C02
0.02926466 German:German72
0.02942573 French_Alsace:A_31

my sister :
Distance to: Xerxez_sister
0.02204946 Belgian:8327817122_R01C01
0.02211137 Belgian:5434289003_R06C02
0.02236079 Belgian:5434289074_R04C01
0.02298669 English:HG01790
0.02305034 Belgian:8327817122_R02C02
0.02355893 Belgian:8327817147_R06C02
0.02390913 Belgian:5434289001_R01C01
0.02495812 Belgian:8543229075_R04C02
0.02498894 Belgian:8327817122_R03C02
0.02511201 Belgian:8324843038_R02C01
0.02525916 Belgian:8543229215_R05C01
0.02528109 Belgian:5434289081_R05C02
0.02529205 Belgian:8543229003_R06C02
0.02538131 Belgian:5443804058_R01C02
0.02539811 Belgian:8543229075_R04C01
0.02549257 Belgian:8324843038_R03C01
0.02550773 Belgian:8543229215_R06C01
0.02564839 Belgian:5434289104_R05C02
0.02571948 Swiss_German:Swiss_German5
0.02577107 German:German44
0.02589791 Belgian:5434289058_R03C01
0.02593728 Belgian:5434289099_R03C01
0.02609506 German:German29
0.02616255 German:German3
0.02618522 French_Alsace:A_69

and my half sister :
Distance to: Xerxezhalfsister
0.01444737 English:HG01790
0.01957508 Belgian:5434289099_R03C01
0.01992477 Belgian:8327817131_R02C02
0.02027070 Belgian:8543229215_R06C01
0.02079148 Belgian:8327817131_R04C01
0.02107685 Belgian:5434289104_R05C02
0.02125192 Belgian:8543229075_R04C01
0.02151717 Belgian:5434289058_R06C02
0.02165397 Belgian:8327817141_R01C01
0.02173227 Belgian:8327817147_R06C02
0.02187770 Belgian:8327817122_R01C01
0.02201599 Belgian:5434289081_R05C02
0.02226087 Belgian:8324843130_R02C01
0.02230003 Belgian:8327817141_R04C01
0.02234026 Belgian:8327817122_R03C02
0.02237674 Welsh:WalesL40
0.02254019 Belgian:8543229215_R05C01
0.02258748 Belgian:5434289105_R01C02
0.02293726 Belgian:8543229075_R04C02
0.02294611 Belgian:5443804115_R06C02
0.02300893 French_Pas-de-Calais:French23862
0.02302724 Belgian:5443804115_R02C02
0.02306763 Belgian:5434289099_R02C02
0.02308418 Afrikaner:AFR053
0.02339174 Belgian:5434289051_R02C01

Finn
01-24-2022, 07:52 PM
Jullie komen met precies dezelfde vraagstukken die ik ook had inderdaad.. En buiten deze, begin ik me ook zo langzamerhand af te vragen in hoeverre bijvoorbeeld de Nederlandse IA samples Łberhaupt daadwerkelijk deel van onze voorouders waren, gezien de vele volksverhuizingen die daarna nog zijn gekomen. En niet alleen de voorgenoemde samples, maar ook bijvoorbeeld de Kelten in het zuiden en de eventuele Romeinen die er zouden zijn geweest. Zo zijn er ook discussies hier op het forum geweest in hoeverre bijvoorbeeld de Tachtigjarige/Dertigjarige Oorlog invloed heeft gehad op de bevolking in het zuiden. Als ik in mijn eigen stamboom kijk, zijn er maar relatief weinig die honderden jaren op dezelfde plek zijn gebleven, dus laat staan duizenden jaren.


Ik denk dat de samples van Nijmegen overeenkomstig de La Tene Kelten zijn geweest, Zeeland komt denk ik de buurt van Belgae. De West-Friese samples vind ik nog steeds het lastigste te doorgronden, maar ik denk dat ze alle drie wel een deel zijn van onze voorouders....

xerxez
01-24-2022, 09:56 PM
Okay I see ! So the label would aim to indicate the genetic profile given that the study does not provide the geographical origins of the ancestors. Indeed, it seems complicated to me to cut the core into two parts. I imagine that in reality a certain number of Flemings and Walloons are more or less dispersed in this core. If I am not mistaken, the samples of this study come a priori from the region of LiŤge, in the east of Wallonia.

On the PCA you posted, where you did you get "Flemish_nord", "French_Ardennes" and "French_Somme" samples ?

I added the Belgian samples with all the modern European individuals listed by Davidski (more than 2000 people in all) and made a K-Means classification in 10 classes. This classification in 10 classes has some limits as a class which gathers Sardinians and Canaries and the names of the classes which I gave quickly but it makes it possible to divide our Belgian sample.

https://i.imgur.com/MRtIKN5.png

The vast majority (242 out of 264, or 92%) of your Belgian samples fall into a cluster that could be described as "northern French" and which also concentrates 96% of Davidski's Belgian samples and between 92% and 100% French_Paris,
Swiss_German, French_Pas-de-Calais, French_Seine-Maritime, French_Nord, French_Alsace. The 22 individuals who are not in this class are mainly (18) in a class that could be described as French_Provence, probably grouping Belgian-Italians. 3 others are in a class that could be called NW_European and are possibly Dutch. Finally, a person is in a class that could be described as "Central_European", perhaps resulting from the mixture between Belgian and North Slavic.

https://i.imgur.com/rEOnEMQ.png

The 242 belgians of the core of the "French_North" cluster now aggregates perfectly with that of Davidski's Belgian individuals


https://i.imgur.com/qVz18dT.png



Belgian:5434289001_R01C01_French_North,0.132035,0. 145221,0.061471,0.035853,0.046162,0.010319,0.00352 5,0.002308,0.008999,0.005467,-0.010555,0.007793,-0.005798,-0.003991,0.008415,0.008618,-0.000522,0.001647,0.000503,0.002751,0.005865,0.006 925,0.005423,0.005422,0.005868
Belgian:5434289001_R01C02_French_North,0.126344,0. 141159,0.055814,0.026486,0.044931,0.009761,0.00211 5,0.004384,0.007363,0.014579,0.001299,0.005095,-0.012636,-0.007707,0.017644,-0.007027,-0.015255,0.002787,0.00352,-0.000375,0.000374,-0.000371,0.001849,0.007109,-0.005029
Belgian:5434289001_R02C02_French_North,0.12862,0.1 39128,0.057322,0.027778,0.034776,0.012829,0.00517, 0.005769,0.002863,0.006014,-0.003085,0.007643,-0.013082,-0.003303,0.013436,0.001326,-0.015776,0.003167,-0.00088,-0.002626,0.00262,-0.002349,0.000863,0.008073,-0.003473
Belgian:5434289001_R03C02_French_North,0.133173,0. 142174,0.053551,0.024871,0.040931,0.009482,0.00070 5,0.007846,0.006545,0.009476,-0.005846,0.006145,-0.01115,-0.011285,0.011808,0.002784,-0.011735,0.002914,0.006034,-0.001126,0.004492,-0.001731,-0.002835,0.012893,0.001317
Belgian:5434289001_R04C01_French_North,0.12862,0.1 39128,0.045254,0.028424,0.037853,0.012829,-0.002585,-0.002769,0.006545,0.009659,-0.002598,0.002847,-0.005203,-0.010459,0.015201,0.014983,0.008736,0.005828,0.000 503,0.003627,-0.001497,0.002349,0.001479,0.011086,-0.005269
Belgian:5434289001_R04C02_French_Provence,0.117238 ,0.141159,0.024513,0.000323,0.028621,0.005857,0.00 1175,-0.000923,0.006954,0.01877,-0.003248,0.002248,-0.013825,0.000688,0.000679,-0.001724,0.002608,-0.00038,0.001885,-0.000875,0.004118,0.000247,-0.002588,0.006989,0.006347
Belgian:5434289001_R05C02_French_North,0.125205,0. 136081,0.047517,0.034238,0.03693,0.015618,0.006345 ,0.004384,0.003068,0.007289,-0.005846,0.005695,-0.009068,-0.005918,0.016694,-0.002254,-0.003912,-0.001774,-0.00176,0.007003,0.002371,0.001978,0.002465,0.0084 35,0.005987
Belgian:5434289001_R06C01_French_North,0.133173,0. 138112,0.047517,0.024871,0.036622,0.011713,0.00517 ,0.010384,0.0045,0.011116,-0.000812,-0.0003,-0.013974,-0.012937,0.014251,0,-0.018906,0.004054,-0.000251,-0.005503,-0.001622,0.014467,-0.000863,0.014701,-0.001676
Belgian:5434289001_R06C02_French_North,0.121791,0. 146236,0.052797,0.028747,0.034468,0.009761,0.00305 5,0.006231,0.004295,0.016037,-0.006333,0.005995,-0.007879,-0.007844,0.013572,-0.004508,-0.008605,0.004814,0.003645,-0.000125,0.010731,0.007296,-0.001109,0.008676,-0.002994
Belgian:5434289003_R01C01_French_North,0.129758,0. 139128,0.049026,0.0323,0.038469,0.011992,0.003525, 0.000923,0.008181,0.010387,-0.002436,0.004046,-0.012487,-0.01445,0.016015,0.01896,0.014733,-0.001014,0.001634,0.002376,0.00262,0.003339,-0.00456,0.007591,-0.006466
Belgian:5434289003_R01C02_French_North,0.124067,0. 145221,0.050911,0.02261,0.043393,0.009203,0.002585 ,0.006923,0.01084,0.016948,-0.001299,0.002248,-0.013082,-0.012111,0.016558,0.00358,0.001695,-0.000127,-0.003142,0.002126,0.010482,0.005812,0.000123,0.011 447,0.009819
Belgian:5434289003_R02C01_French_North,0.132035,0. 133034,0.049403,0.033915,0.029236,0.012829,0.00117 5,0.005307,0.007567,0.005103,-0.004872,0.002248,-0.007879,-0.00234,0.016286,0.001458,-0.002868,0.002914,0.003142,0.003126,0.004367,0.003 462,-0.005916,0.009881,0.000958
Belgian:5434289003_R03C01_French_North,0.127482,0. 139128,0.053551,0.020672,0.038161,0.010598,0.00587 5,0.012923,0.01493,0.017312,-0.009906,0.006145,-0.013082,-0.001927,0.010722,-0.00358,-0.008475,-0.001267,0.001508,0.003502,0.000499,0.004204,-0.006655,0.008917,-0.000599
Belgian:5434289003_R04C02_French_North,0.134311,0. 141159,0.049403,0.022933,0.038469,0.011156,-0.00235,0.002769,0.009204,0.01877,-0.005034,0.006894,-0.015015,-0.01679,0.009772,0.009679,0.012126,0.000507,0.0030 17,0.002001,-0.000499,0.006059,-0.000616,0.017834,-0.006945
Belgian:5434289003_R05C02_French_North,0.126344,0. 140143,0.046386,0.033915,0.032006,0.016176,0.00517 ,0.002077,0.0045,0.007472,-0.006658,0.012439,-0.017096,-0.012799,0.013843,-0.001326,-0.00665,0.000633,0.002011,-0.000875,0.001248,0.013849,0.005423,0.010122,-0.001078
Belgian:5434289003_R06C01_French_North,0.124067,0. 144205,0.048271,0.027455,0.036007,0.004183,0.00117 5,0.002308,0.003886,0.009294,-0.00682,0.002248,-0.010258,-0.013212,0.007193,0.009016,0.00665,0.004054,-0.004399,0.002876,0.007736,0.004328,-0.005669,0.00735,-0.002754
Belgian:5434289003_R06C02_French_North,0.132035,0. 14319,0.057699,0.029716,0.038776,0.015618,0.009165 ,0.010384,0.011249,0.00893,-0.009906,0.004496,-0.005798,-0.012661,0.011943,0.005569,-0.002608,0.001014,0.005405,0.008254,0.007362,0.000 371,0.002835,0.010001,-0.00467
Belgian:5434289041_R02C01_NW_European,0.132035,0.1 41159,0.062225,0.035853,0.04647,0.017849,0.00329,0 .006231,0.00859,0.010205,-0.007957,0.006744,-0.015758,-0.00523,0.020901,-0.006629,-0.021383,0.000127,0.000377,-0.00075,0.014225,0.007172,-0.00037,0.008555,0.002515
Belgian:5434289041_R03C01_French_North,0.12862,0.1 45221,0.056568,0.032946,0.043393,0.013945,0.006815 ,0.007154,0.007158,0.007472,-0.003735,0.000599,-0.014271,-0.003441,0.008143,-0.010607,-0.017211,-0.000887,0.00264,-0.001626,0.002496,0,-0.000616,0.005181,-0.001197
Belgian:5434289041_R03C02_French_North,0.138864,0. 141159,0.051288,0.029716,0.042162,0.01506,0.00611, 0.002077,0.004295,0.010023,-0.002598,0.005395,-0.014717,-0.014726,0.014522,0.017369,0.018906,-0.000633,0.009302,0.005127,0.000873,-0.001855,0.000986,0.010122,0.00012
Belgian:5434289041_R04C02_French_North,0.12862,0.1 42174,0.058831,0.026163,0.036314,0.009482,0.004465 ,0.007384,0.006749,0.01057,-0.006333,0.004796,-0.008176,-0.006468,0.013708,-0.00716,-0.025164,0.005321,0.002765,-0.005378,0.006613,-0.000618,-0.002465,0.008796,0.002275
Belgian:5434289041_R05C01_French_North,0.130897,0. 14319,0.055814,0.030039,0.034776,0.011435,0.0047,0 .006231,0.009204,0.000547,-0.000974,0.003747,-0.009366,-0.006468,0.016558,0.007425,-0.008475,0.001647,0.002137,0.000875,0.003244,0.005 07,-0.001479,0.012411,-0.002754
Belgian:5434289041_R06C01_French_North,0.127482,0. 141159,0.055814,0.023902,0.044316,0.019522,0.00517 ,0.006461,0.010022,0.012028,-0.009581,0.0003,-0.003717,-0.003303,0.012351,-0.008221,-0.019427,0.004941,0.002891,-0.003627,0.001622,0.003833,-0.003328,0.013255,-0.000599
Belgian:5434289051_R01C01_French_North,0.127482,0. 137096,0.056191,0.031331,0.043393,0.018686,0.00587 5,0.011769,0.009613,0.008383,-0.005521,0.004796,-0.014123,-0.004542,0.016558,-0.008221,-0.018123,-0.004561,0.003017,-0.005753,0.006738,0.004946,0.001109,0.00253,0.0008 38
Belgian:5434289051_R01C02_French_North,0.126344,0. 144205,0.056191,0.024548,0.041238,0.013387,0.00211 5,0.000923,0.007567,0.010205,-0.004384,0.003897,-0.008325,-0.010046,0.00855,-0.005304,-0.015385,0.00266,-0.000377,0.000125,0.003743,-0.001237,-0.000246,0.018195,0.000479
Belgian:5434289051_R02C01_French_North,0.129758,0. 144205,0.053174,0.028101,0.040623,0.01757,0.006815 ,0.001385,0.003477,0.011116,-0.011205,0.003897,-0.013677,-0.011698,0.007193,0.004508,0.002608,0.002787,-0.001006,0.002001,0.005116,0.000742,-0.002465,0.00241,0.002634
Belgian:5434289051_R02C02_French_North,0.127482,0. 144205,0.054305,0.034238,0.030159,0.011156,0.00282 ,0.008077,0.002454,0.00492,-0.004709,0.003147,-0.008474,-0.007982,0.014658,0.005436,-0.003651,0.002407,0.00088,-0.002876,0.004866,-0.001113,0.003081,-0.000964,0.000479
Belgian:5434289051_R03C01_French_North,0.126344,0. 139128,0.05242,0.031331,0.034468,0.018686,0.00094, 0.008077,0.012476,0.006014,-0.005034,0.002847,-0.009812,-0.001651,0.024294,-0.003978,-0.024903,0.002787,0.003645,0.001751,-0.002745,-0.000371,0.007888,0.010483,-0.003832
Belgian:5434289051_R03C02_French_Provence,0.12862, 0.146236,0.040352,0.008075,0.033237,0.001394,0.004 465,0.002538,0.007567,0.017312,0.000325,0.007493,-0.013379,-0.005505,0.005022,-0.011933,-0.011213,0.005448,0.003268,-0.007379,0.001373,0.001978,-0.004437,0.00482,0.001197
Belgian:5434289051_R05C01_French_North,0.12862,0.1 40143,0.045254,0.028101,0.038161,0.011713,0.002585 ,0.006692,0.007567,0.014032,-0.003897,0.006894,-0.015015,-0.010735,0.006243,0.005967,-0.001695,0.00114,-0.000628,-0.005753,0.006114,-0.001731,0.001109,0.004097,-0.002874
Belgian:5434289051_R06C02_French_North,0.129758,0. 139128,0.051288,0.029393,0.040931,0.009203,0.00188 ,0.008077,0.00409,0.012574,-0.003735,0.007493,-0.013974,-0.005505,0.017644,-0.005967,-0.018906,-0.001014,0.007165,-0.00025,0.003244,0.00643,-0.000739,0.011206,-0.003233
Belgian:5434289058_R01C01_French_North,0.129758,0. 141159,0.0445,0.01938,0.038776,0.006693,0.000235,0 .003461,0.010635,0.007289,-0.002273,0.004496,-0.010852,-0.0139,0.011808,0.01896,0.011865,-0.00076,0.006411,0.009004,-0.000125,0.003462,-0.001479,0.010724,-0.002155
Belgian:5434289058_R01C02_French_Provence,0.129758 ,0.149283,0.025267,-0.011951,0.033545,-0.001116,0.002585,-0.002769,0.008385,0.026606,-0.003897,0.003897,-0.008771,-0.006606,-0.005429,0.002121,0.000261,0.005828,0.005656,0.000 25,0.000125,0.003215,-0.007272,0.00482,0.005029
Belgian:5434289058_R02C01_French_North,0.12862,0.1 40143,0.049026,0.032623,0.036007,0.005857,0.004465 ,0.004384,0.005318,0.01221,-0.001137,0.003747,-0.011298,-0.016515,0.009093,0.01127,0.007953,0.006841,0.0059 08,-0.003252,0.007487,0.003215,-0.003204,0.012532,-0.002634
Belgian:5434289058_R02C02_French_North,0.129758,0. 141159,0.057322,0.030685,0.035391,0.008367,-0.00282,-0.000462,0.004704,0.002369,0.002111,0.007793,-0.015758,0.001514,0.013436,-0.013259,-0.026729,0.004181,0.00352,-0.004627,0.000998,-0.001978,-0.003821,0.004699,0.003592
Belgian:5434289058_R03C01_French_North,0.122929,0. 138112,0.046386,0.029716,0.038776,0.01255,0.00658, 0.00923,0.004909,0.010205,-0.006658,0.005995,-0.012042,-0.008257,0.010858,0.002121,-0.001825,0.003674,0.004022,0.00075,0.001872,0.0075 43,0.002095,0.006989,-0.004311
Belgian:5434289058_R03C02_French_North,0.133173,0. 146236,0.044123,0.02584,0.037853,0.005299,0.00282, 0.003,0.007158,0.008565,-0.003085,0.001049,-0.008622,-0.010459,0.007872,0.016839,0.014212,-0.001014,0.002263,0.003377,0.001373,0.004328,0.000 37,0.008676,-0.001676
Belgian:5434289058_R04C01_French_North,0.127482,0. 136081,0.054305,0.028747,0.034776,0.010598,0.00188 ,0.002308,0.003272,0.012574,-0.00341,0.006894,-0.006541,-0.010459,0.017236,0.002519,-0.004563,0.00228,-0.003268,-0.00075,0.000499,0.00136,-0.000493,0.015544,-0.007185
Belgian:5434289058_R04C02_French_North,0.12862,0.1 3405,0.061094,0.035853,0.041546,0.009761,0.00188,0 .008307,0.007158,0.005103,-0.001949,0.010341,-0.009217,-0.017065,0.015879,0.002254,-0.006389,0.000507,-0.00088,-0.001376,-0.002496,0.00272,0.000616,0.015906,0.002036
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Belgian:5443804116_R03C02_French_Provence,0.122929 ,0.145221,0.035449,-0.003553,0.030159,0.000558,0.00188,-0.000462,0.010022,0.024055,0.000974,0.006594,-0.009068,-0.003165,-0.01045,-0.012596,-0.009518,-0.002027,0.002011,-0.014507,-0.001248,0.004081,-0.003451,0.000843,0.001078
Belgian:5443804116_R04C02_French_North,0.129758,0. 136081,0.053551,0.02584,0.041854,0.007809,0.00517, 0.008307,0.008795,0.018041,-0.004872,0.006145,-0.01219,-0.017203,0.014794,0.014717,0.011343,0.001647,0.000 377,0.007128,0.004866,-0.000247,-0.002465,0.007712,-0.004431
Belgian:5443804116_R05C01_French_North,0.121791,0. 140143,0.048271,0.02584,0.038161,0.012271,0.003995 ,0.004615,0.00634,0.016583,-0.00406,0.003747,-0.006244,-0.008945,0.012351,0.016839,0.010691,-0.005194,0.002011,0.007003,0.004617,0.002968,-0.000493,0.010242,0.000479
Belgian:5443804116_R05C02_French_North,0.126344,0. 141159,0.058831,0.030039,0.039084,0.010877,0,0.005 077,0.009408,0.009476,0.000325,0.005245,-0.01115,-0.009634,0.003936,0.004375,-0.003129,0.00152,-0.000126,0.002251,-0.000624,0.008656,-0.008874,0.008194,-0.004071
Belgian:8324843038_R01C01_French_North,0.12862,0.1 45221,0.057699,0.026809,0.03416,0.012829,0.001645, 0.003231,0.005522,0.010752,-0.006008,0.008692,-0.020515,-0.006331,0.021308,0.001326,-0.00013,0.000253,0.001257,0.003502,0.002246,0.0001 24,-0.005053,0.006868,-0.002754
Belgian:8324843038_R01C02_French_North,0.125205,0. 138112,0.056191,0.034884,0.033852,0.010877,0.00164 5,0.003,0.004704,0.007654,-0.014128,0.008393,-0.011893,-0.007982,0.011672,0.005304,0.000913,-0.001014,0.002514,0.003877,0.003119,0.003957,0.000 123,0.010965,0
Belgian:8324843038_R02C01_French_North,0.12862,0.1 49283,0.056945,0.028101,0.040007,0.005857,0.00235, 0.006461,0.007158,0.008383,-0.011692,0.005395,-0.006838,-0.005092,0.011672,0.008618,-0.001043,0.003547,0.001885,0,-0.004492,0.003091,0.000246,0.014942,0
Belgian:8324843038_R02C02_French_North,0.126344,0. 137096,0.050157,0.026486,0.037238,0.013666,0.00611 ,0.003923,0.007363,0.009841,-0.004709,0.007044,-0.011001,-0.005092,0.015472,0.00716,-0.000522,0.002407,-0.000126,-0.003001,0.005116,0.007419,0.000739,0.014942,-0.005029
Belgian:8324843038_R03C01_French_North,0.127482,0. 142174,0.057699,0.031331,0.041854,0.010877,0.00352 5,0.007384,0.006749,0.004556,-0.01153,0.003897,-0.013379,-0.009221,0.013708,-0.000265,-0.001173,0.0019,0.003268,0.001126,0.003244,0.00395 7,0.002465,0.008073,0.008981
Belgian:8324843038_R03C02_French_Provence,0.120652 ,0.152329,0.032809,-0.005168,0.038776,-0.004462,0.00658,0.003692,0.012271,0.019681,-0.004709,0.003897,-0.0055,-0.004679,-0.009093,0.002121,-0.000782,0.005194,0.007542,-0.001876,0.000873,-0.001113,-0.001972,-0.001446,0.00491
Belgian:8324843038_R04C01_French_North,0.135449,0. 145221,0.053174,0.027455,0.041238,0.006693,0.00587 5,0.008077,0.006954,0.012574,0.000487,0.003597,-0.013825,-0.000275,0.023751,0.00411,-0.00678,0.003547,-0.003897,0.007504,-0.000374,0.008656,0.001972,0.013134,-0.001437
Belgian:8324843038_R05C01_French_Provence,0.121791 ,0.149283,0.040729,0.009367,0.038161,0.006972,0.00 0705,0.007384,0.008385,0.020228,-0.004872,0.006744,-0.01442,-0.004129,0.000543,0.00305,0.002347,-0.0019,-0.003017,-0.001126,0.006364,-0.001113,-0.001849,0.005181,0.001078
Belgian:8324843038_R05C02_French_North,0.130897,0. 140143,0.054305,0.025194,0.036314,0.009203,0.00329 ,0.011076,0.012885,0.010752,-0.005359,0.004946,-0.009366,-0.002477,0.009908,0.011005,-0.011474,0.002914,0.006285,0.004877,0.009858,0.001 607,0,0.003856,-0.002754
Belgian:8324843038_R06C01_French_North,0.125205,0. 140143,0.053174,0.021964,0.038776,0.010598,0.00399 5,0.002077,0.01493,0.017312,-0.00682,0.012139,-0.017691,-0.011147,0.013572,0.005304,0.007302,0.00114,0.0027 65,0.004127,0.010107,0.006059,-0.007765,0.003615,-0.002275
Belgian:8324843038_R06C02_French_North,0.133173,0. 133034,0.054305,0.030362,0.037238,0.006972,0.00188 ,0.003923,0.006136,0.01057,-0.001137,0.003747,-0.005352,-0.013762,0.019408,0.005967,-0.009388,0.00228,0.002011,-0.00075,0.00574,0.00272,0.001849,0.011809,-0.005389
Belgian:8324843039_R01C02_French_North,0.126344,0. 142174,0.056191,0.024871,0.037853,0.010319,0.00164 5,0.00923,0.007976,0.006196,-0.001624,0.006894,-0.012785,-0.009221,0.013843,0.009546,0.004433,-0.00038,0.002514,0.000125,0.00574,0.003462,0.00098 6,0.008676,0
Belgian:8324843039_R02C01_French_North,0.129758,0. 14319,0.052797,0.02584,0.041854,0.010877,0.002585, 0.006692,0.007567,0.015308,-0.005034,0.006294,-0.007879,-0.004679,0.013029,0.005967,-0.005476,0.0019,-0.002765,0.002126,0.00287,-0.003215,0.003944,0.016267,0.003353
Belgian:8324843039_R02C02_French_Provence,0.124067 ,0.141159,0.032432,-0.000646,0.037238,0.000837,0.00188,-0.000692,0.003681,0.020593,0.002923,0.010641,-0.015312,-0.003165,0.004479,0.008751,0.006128,0.004814,-0.000251,-0.008254,0.000125,-0.000618,0.001356,0.008194,0.001317
Belgian:8324843039_R03C01_French_North,0.126344,0. 139128,0.058077,0.030362,0.03693,0.010598,0.00047, 0.006923,0.006954,0.006743,-0.001624,0.008992,-0.007582,-0.003028,0.004886,0.001193,-0.014473,0.00228,0.000251,-0.003001,0.004492,0.011252,-0.000493,-0.00012,0.005389
Belgian:8324843039_R03C02_French_North,0.126344,0. 140143,0.047894,0.027778,0.030775,0.014502,-0.000705,0.000462,0.002454,0.010387,-0.009094,0.006145,-0.01219,-0.012799,0.010993,0.012066,-0.000391,0.00076,0.003394,-0.005628,0.004742,-0.002349,-0.005176,0.005784,0.002754
Belgian:8324843039_R04C02_French_North,0.127482,0. 139128,0.053174,0.036822,0.039084,0.012271,0.00540 5,0.007846,0.008795,0.01221,0.003248,0.003897,-0.010852,-0.006881,0.005429,0.015911,0.01682,0.003927,0.0003 77,0.013256,0.008984,0.002473,-0.001849,0.015183,-0.005987
Belgian:8324843039_R06C01_French_North,0.125205,0. 139128,0.054305,0.023256,0.03416,0.012271,0.001175 ,0.003,0.007772,0.015855,-0.001137,0.008243,-0.015758,-0.00867,0.011672,0.007027,-0.001565,-0.001394,-0.000628,-0.000125,0.004243,0.001607,-0.006532,0.011086,-0.001197
Belgian:8324843039_R06C02_French_North,0.127482,0. 137096,0.053551,0.02584,0.0437,0.012271,0.003995,0 .006923,0.002659,0.009476,-0.006008,0.004796,-0.013379,-0.016102,0.012079,0.01485,0.014733,0.00152,0,0.007 754,0.005116,0.001855,-0.001232,0.013375,-0.003473
Belgian:8324843130_R01C02_French_North,0.121791,0. 138112,0.048649,0.026163,0.042777,0.011435,0.00399 5,0.005538,0.005318,0.004191,-0.00341,0.004046,-0.010258,-0.004679,0.012215,-0.001458,0,0.00076,-0.003771,-0.000875,0.003494,0.00136,-0.005176,0.01205,0.001796
Belgian:8324843130_R02C01_French_North,0.130897,0. 133034,0.061471,0.038437,0.040931,0.016733,0.00352 5,0.005769,0.011453,0.012757,-0.008119,-0.002098,-0.012636,-0.00523,0.012486,0.007027,-0.004563,-0.00076,0.006788,0.005503,0.004617,0.009027,-0.002835,0.01217,-0.003592
Belgian:8324843130_R02C02_French_Provence,0.125205 ,0.145221,0.047517,0.009367,0.033545,0.007251,0.00 4935,0.001385,0.009408,0.016037,-0.00341,0.006594,-0.009366,-0.006193,0.002172,0.000398,0.002217,0.004181,0.008 799,-0.008254,0.004243,0.001237,-0.003944,0.006627,-0.000718
Belgian:8324843130_R03C01_French_Provence,0.122929 ,0.144205,0.039598,0.005814,0.037853,0.01004,0.002 585,0.006692,0.010431,0.015308,-0.001624,0.005095,-0.012339,-0.010597,0.006922,0.016839,0.016559,-0.003927,0.002765,0.000625,-0.00025,0.000742,-0.001725,0.008073,-0.000599
Belgian:8324843130_R03C02_French_North,0.124067,0. 138112,0.048271,0.026809,0.035391,0.01004,0.002115 ,0.004384,0.006749,0.01549,0.001949,0.008542,-0.018731,-0.018304,0.015065,0.016839,0.008866,-0.00266,0.002765,0.003627,-0.002246,0.002473,-0.003328,0.005422,-0.006826
Belgian:8324843130_R04C01_French_North,0.133173,0. 145221,0.051666,0.02907,0.044624,0.010319,0.00047, 0.006461,0.011453,0.004556,-0.008119,0.003897,-0.006838,0.001101,0.014386,-0.006497,-0.014473,0.004561,0.002263,0.001626,0.00836,0.0039 57,0.001602,0.008676,-0.002275
Belgian:8324843130_R04C02_French_North,0.127482,0. 144205,0.042238,0.023579,0.03693,0.010598,0.000235 ,0.004154,0.010635,0.016401,-0.011854,0.007343,-0.011298,-0.007844,0.017372,-0.008884,-0.019427,-0.000127,0.003268,-0.003377,0.006738,0.005441,-0.003081,-0.000843,0.001197
Belgian:8324843130_R05C01_French_North,0.129758,0. 148267,0.045632,0.023579,0.03693,0.010319,-0.00094,0.002077,0.004704,0.01057,-0.007957,0.001649,-0.013082,-0.001651,0.010858,-0.009546,-0.01695,0.004054,0.00176,-0.003502,0.006114,0.000371,-0.00037,0.008555,0.00479
Belgian:8324843130_R05C02_French_Provence,0.125205 ,0.139128,0.042615,0.00969,0.033545,0.001394,0.006 815,0.011999,0.008795,0.013303,-0.004547,0.009142,-0.010704,-0.001927,0.008415,-0.009812,-0.014994,0.00152,0.003268,-0.002251,-0.001622,0.006183,-0.002588,-0.000482,-0.003113
Belgian:8324843130_R06C01_French_North,0.129758,0. 14319,0.052043,0.032946,0.03693,0.013108,0.00282,0 ,0.005318,0.012939,-0.009906,0.001049,-0.015312,-0.012937,0.017508,0.001591,-0.000391,0.000507,0.006913,-0.001751,-0.003369,0.00371,-0.002218,0.021208,0.003592
Belgian:8324843130_R06C02_French_Provence,0.129758 ,0.148267,0.029415,-0.008398,0.032621,0,-0.001645,-0.001154,0.00634,0.016219,-0.00341,0.003447,-0.005798,0.000963,-0.004886,-0.004773,-0.01004,0.003294,0.004148,-0.003502,-0.003244,-0.00136,0.003204,0.001928,-0.002994
Belgian:8327817122_R01C01_French_North,0.12862,0.1 3405,0.053928,0.02584,0.043085,0.019801,0.004465,0 .007846,0.000614,0.00656,-0.007957,0.005845,-0.007284,-0.008945,0.011129,0.006232,-0.00339,0.009375,0.00905,0.000625,0.004617,0.00371 ,-0.000616,0.006989,0.000958
Belgian:8327817122_R01C02_French_North,0.127482,0. 138112,0.04714,0.033915,0.0397,0.019522,0.00094,0. 002077,0.007976,0.008747,-0.001461,0.007643,-0.010109,-0.011836,0.004479,0.011005,0.016689,-0.001267,0.001885,0,-0.000499,0.002844,0.000246,0.010965,-0.005269

xerxez
01-24-2022, 09:57 PM
Next samples, as all my precedent message was too long


Belgian:8327817122_R02C02_French_North,0.127482,0. 14319,0.056191,0.021641,0.042162,0.011435,0.000705 ,0.009692,0.010635,0.009841,-0.009419,0.006594,-0.005946,-0.005643,0.013301,0.008486,-0.003912,0.001394,0.007793,0.003001,0.004367,0.002 844,0.001479,0.006145,-0.001676
Belgian:8327817122_R03C01_French_Provence,0.119514 ,0.136081,0.025644,-0.003876,0.029236,-0.007251,-0.000705,-0.000923,0.006545,0.012392,-0.000974,0.003897,-0.002527,-0.005092,0.002443,-0.000265,-0.00339,0.00152,0.003394,0.000875,0.006239,-0.000742,-0.000246,0.007471,0.000479
Belgian:8327817122_R03C02_French_North,0.133173,0. 135065,0.04978,0.029716,0.040007,0.009761,0.00423, 0.006231,0.006954,0.006378,-0.003897,0.004046,-0.011298,-0.00234,0.010043,-0.001724,-0.002217,0.003421,0.004022,0.002001,0.005989,0.001 607,0.001972,0.010242,-0.00479
Belgian:8327817122_R04C02_French_North,0.134311,0. 137096,0.053928,0.027778,0.041238,0.011156,0.00705 ,0.006231,0.01309,0.012028,-0.002598,0.002098,-0.009812,-0.005918,0.013843,0.009016,-0.003781,0.005321,0.002263,-0.002501,0.012603,-0.001607,0.000493,0.013014,0.000359
Belgian:8327817122_R05C01_French_North,0.130897,0. 137096,0.055437,0.030362,0.041546,0.006972,0.00728 5,0.006461,0.007567,0.008201,-0.002436,0.003897,-0.011893,-0.010872,0.014794,-0.00053,-0.012256,-0.002787,0.002388,0.002626,0.004866,0.008903,-0.004807,0.017111,0.004071
Belgian:8327817122_R05C02_French_Provence,0.126344 ,0.149283,0.037712,-0.002261,0.031698,0.004462,0.00047,0.006231,0.0063 4,0.015855,0.000162,0.004196,-0.007136,0,0.012486,-0.007955,-0.015907,0.000507,0.003771,-0.001501,-0.000125,0.008161,0.001356,0.006627,0.00479
Belgian:8327817122_R06C01_French_North,0.12862,0.1 41159,0.05242,0.020672,0.037238,0.009482,0.006815, 0.006692,-0.001636,0.008201,-0.005684,0.004496,-0.009068,-0.011423,0.018865,0.012198,0.012517,-0.002787,-0.000377,0.001876,0.007986,0.002473,0.001725,0.011 327,-0.006107
Belgian:8327817131_R01C01_French_North,0.127482,0. 147252,0.040352,0.01615,0.030467,0.008646,0.00752, 0.008769,0.008999,0.012028,-0.004547,0.007044,-0.008771,0.003441,0.003393,-0.013789,-0.011995,-0.001014,0.003394,0.000125,0.004367,-0.005564,0.002835,0.010122,0
Belgian:8327817131_R01C02_French_North,0.122929,0. 140143,0.052043,0.016796,0.045547,0.008646,0.00752 ,0.005769,0.006545,0.012028,-0.004384,0.007793,-0.017393,-0.007156,0.014251,-0.003447,-0.014473,0.005954,0.00176,-0.002626,0.000374,0.001855,0.005423,0.010363,-0.003473
Belgian:8327817131_R02C01_French_North,0.12862,0.1 4319,0.04978,0.033592,0.03693,0.003347,0.00188,0.0 04384,0.00634,0.006378,-0.002436,0.006594,-0.012933,-0.003165,0.015336,-0.004773,-0.019688,0.006968,0.011564,-0.006003,0.003619,0.002473,0.001602,0.011568,0.001 676
Belgian:8327817131_R02C02_French_North,0.127482,0. 136081,0.05506,0.034884,0.03693,0.013666,0.004935, 0.008538,0.006136,0.007107,0.002761,0.008692,-0.009514,-0.002064,0.014386,0,-0.004824,0.001647,0.004022,0.002126,-0.00025,0.004328,-0.003081,0.00494,-0.002754
Belgian:8327817131_R03C01_French_North,0.124067,0. 136081,0.050911,0.027778,0.038776,0.009482,0.00540 5,0.002077,0.007363,0.015126,0.000325,0.006594,-0.007879,-0.007844,0.007736,0.001989,-0.00665,-0.001267,0.003771,0.001376,0.000374,-0.000618,0.001479,0.00976,-0.000239
Belgian:8327817131_R03C02_French_North,0.125205,0. 132019,0.04978,0.024871,0.038776,0.004462,-0.00094,0.006461,0.006749,0.008201,-0.003573,0.007943,-0.013677,-0.005643,0.011808,0.005967,0.002868,0.004054,0.009 176,0.004002,-0.000125,0.006801,-0.005916,0.000843,-0.002395
Belgian:8327817131_R04C01_French_North,0.132035,0. 141159,0.053551,0.034561,0.045239,0.014502,-0.00094,0.004154,0.00409,0.008747,-0.00341,0.007044,-0.013974,-0.005643,0.012622,0.003845,-0.002868,0.00152,-0.000628,0.003377,0.003244,-0.002473,-0.00037,0.011809,0.005269
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Belgian:8543229215_R02C02_French_North,0.136588,0. 142174,0.052043,0.02907,0.040315,0.01506,0.001645, 0.005538,0.004295,0.012392,0.007145,0.007194,-0.012339,-0.013625,0.011536,0.017104,0.013169,0.000633,0.002 765,0.002751,0.00025,0.000495,-0.000986,0.008435,-0.003592
Belgian:8543229215_R03C01_French_North,0.125205,0. 136081,0.045254,0.026809,0.035391,0.007809,0.00517 ,0.002077,0.003477,0.013303,-0.006171,0.010641,-0.00892,-0.01968,0.011808,0.012596,0.01369,-0.002027,-0.000126,0.0005,0.007986,0.002968,0.000863,0.01458 ,0.001078
Belgian:8543229215_R03C02_French_North,0.126344,0. 138112,0.0445,0.022287,0.038776,0.013666,0.003995, 0.006,0.001841,0.001822,0.001299,0.005245,-0.007582,-0.007982,0.012622,0.004773,-0.002999,0.001014,-0.002011,0.003377,0.003993,0.00371,0.00419,0.00337 4,-0.001437
Belgian:8543229215_R04C01_French_North,0.12862,0.1 45221,0.052043,0.024871,0.041546,0.002231,0.011281 ,0.007846,0.014317,0.012939,-0.003573,0.005995,-0.009514,-0.002477,0.009365,0.003713,0.000782,0.002787,0.006 159,0.002501,0.003993,0.00136,-0.001972,0.008917,-0.001437
Belgian:8543229215_R04C02_French_North,0.129758,0. 149283,0.057322,0.030362,0.03416,0.015618,0.0047,0 .00923,0.008385,0.010023,-0.006983,0.007044,-0.018434,-0.00578,0.0095,-0.00305,-0.015646,0.002914,0.008547,0,0.007736,0.007296,0.0 0456,0.010845,-0.009101
Belgian:8543229215_R05C01_French_North,0.132035,0. 14319,0.053928,0.027455,0.040315,0.009203,0.0047,0 .005538,0.003681,0.008201,-0.007632,0.003147,-0.005054,-0.007294,0.010993,0.005834,0.001434,-0.00076,-0.00176,0.001126,0.007986,-0.006306,0.000863,0.005784,-0.001078
Belgian:8543229215_R05C02_French_North,0.124067,0. 141159,0.05506,0.026809,0.044624,0.013945,0.0047,0 ,0.009204,0.008565,-0.002923,0.006594,-0.011596,-0.004954,0.011672,-0.007027,-0.026989,0.003421,0.00817,-0.006378,0.005989,0.005812,-0.001109,0.006386,-0.000718
Belgian:8543229215_R06C01_French_North,0.130897,0. 141159,0.061471,0.032623,0.041854,0.010319,0.00211 5,0.006461,0.003068,0.006743,-0.005034,0.004196,-0.010258,-0.005643,0.013165,0.002519,-0.004563,-0.001774,0.001131,0.005253,-0.000998,0.000989,0.003821,0.010001,-0.003832
Belgian:8543229215_R06C02_French_North,0.129758,0. 139128,0.054682,0.031977,0.044624,0.011992,-0.00141,0.004846,0.016771,0.02278,-0.007957,0.006444,-0.010406,-0.009634,0.017915,0.010342,-0.007041,-0.00114,-0.001634,0.003377,0.008485,-0.003339,0.000246,0.010724,-0.003113
Belgian:8546260098_R01C02_French_North,0.127482,0. 135065,0.048271,0.031331,0.036007,0.010877,0.00023 5,0.006,0.004909,0.005467,-0.001299,0.007943,-0.00996,0.000688,0.016151,0.005967,0.001304,0.0068 41,0.000377,0.000125,0.000624,-0.002968,0.000246,0.006145,-0.000718
Belgian:8546260098_R02C01_French_North,0.124067,0. 139128,0.059585,0.029393,0.037853,0.011992,0.00517 ,0.006692,0.012067,0.007107,-0.009581,0.006744,-0.016353,-0.008945,0.013979,-0.003713,-0.011865,0.00076,-0.001885,0.003001,0.009483,0.006059,0.000493,0.008 555,-0.000359
Belgian:8546260098_R02C02_French_North,0.127482,0. 14319,0.0445,0.024548,0.040007,0.002789,0.003525,0 .006692,0.014726,0.013485,-0.007307,0.002698,-0.007582,-0.004954,0.016422,-0.005171,-0.019297,0.001774,0.001257,-0.001126,0.007237,-0.000742,-0.008258,0.000241,0
Belgian:8546260098_R03C02_French_North,0.127482,0. 141159,0.049026,0.026486,0.038161,0.010598,0.00658 ,0.008769,0.007772,0.007107,-0.007632,0.002997,-0.009514,-0.004129,0.009636,-0.007955,-0.02047,0.002787,-0.001006,0.002126,0.005989,0.005317,-0.000863,0.005904,0.001796
Belgian:8546260098_R04C02_French_North,0.125205,0. 141159,0.054682,0.033269,0.044008,0.006972,0.00517 ,0.013384,0.009613,0.010387,-0.012342,0.007793,-0.012487,-0.008945,0.016015,0.002519,-0.019036,0.001394,0.004274,-0.004752,0.001248,-0.000124,-0.009737,0.006266,0.001197
Belgian:8546260098_R05C01_French_North,0.129758,0. 142174,0.046386,0.031977,0.035391,0.013666,0.00564 ,0.008307,0.006136,0.007472,-0.000812,0.008243,-0.008622,-0.010597,0.014386,0.005436,0,-0.001647,-0.002388,0.005002,0.005615,0.000866,0.002342,0.009 519,-0.003952
Belgian:8546260098_R05C02_French_North,0.127482,0. 142174,0.051288,0.032946,0.040315,0.012829,0.00211 5,0.007846,0.007363,0.009841,-0.004222,0.008243,-0.006244,-0.000826,0.011672,-0.00358,-0.019036,-0.0019,0.000126,-0.007629,-0.003369,0.008656,0.001602,0.008676,0.002155
Belgian:8546260098_R06C01_French_North,0.127482,0. 140143,0.05506,0.033915,0.038161,0.016455,-0.001645,0.002769,0.001841,0.007107,-0.00747,0.009891,-0.01442,-0.011285,0.016286,-0.00305,-0.003781,-0.002027,-0.003897,0.008504,0.004118,0.002597,-0.000863,0.007832,0.000239
Belgian:8546260098_R06C02_French_North,0.132035,0. 141159,0.054682,0.039083,0.036314,0.009203,0.0094, 0.007384,0.003272,0.005649,-0.004384,0.005695,-0.009068,-0.010735,0.015201,-0.000928,-0.017863,0.000507,0.001383,-0.001251,0.002745,-0.001855,0.003081,0.004579,0.005508

Average coordinates for the 242 Belgians from Liege of the "French_North" cluster :


Belgian_Liege_scaled,0.128460190082645,0.140667665 289256,0.0520940495867768,0.0276658842975207,0.039 4033181818182,0.0104584049586777,0.003096760330578 51,0.00499379338842976,0.00765189669421488,0.01048 31074380165,-0.00427240082644628,0.00559464462809917,-0.0114818636363636,-0.00795426033057851,0.0129175495867768,0.002748719 00826446,-0.00503488429752066,0.00136476033057851,0.00226673 140495868,0.000851111570247933,0.00337161570247934 ,0.00268104545454546,-0.000450735537190083,0.00860754545454545,-0.000261752066115702

Unsurprisingly, extremely close to the northern French and Belgians of Davidski


Distance to: Belgian_Liege_average
0.00566295 French_Nord
0.00592535 Belgian
0.00928047 French_Alsace
0.01291137 French_Paris
0.01292111 Swiss_German
0.01541755 French_Pas-de-Calais
0.01736692 French_Brittany
0.01981998 French_Seine-Maritime
0.01983842 German
0.02233627 Afrikaner
0.02236238 French_Occitanie
0.02253354 Welsh
0.02372871 English_Cornwall
0.02469604 English
0.02542801 French_Auvergne
0.02648846 Austrian
0.02829807 Dutch
0.02847306 Swiss_French
0.02896802 Scottish
0.03006651 Orcadian
0.03261133 Irish
0.03289964 French_Provence
0.03411419 Shetlandic
0.03443052 Italian_Aosta_Valley
0.03514416 Danish

https://i.imgur.com/QyRUkz4.png

And for the fun, no significant differences between young and old people into the "French_north" cluster :

https://i.imgur.com/ygR5DJP.png

anglesqueville
01-24-2022, 10:11 PM
Well, here it is, I imputed the file up to about 30 million SNPs. A PLINK file is available to amateurs (about 2Gb before compression), as well as its restriction to 1240K. I incorporated it into my minimal base of MDS, which contains only official public data (that is, in particular, for those who remember it, without the Germans obtained from a very ... unofficial source ). So 482925 SNPs, overall genotyping rate 0.998. Here is the P1-P2 plan of the MDS, without the codes, and with them (a very large PDF).
48137
48138

Ajeje Brazorf
01-24-2022, 10:40 PM
Hey guys, there are about 260 Belgian samples with G25 coordinates here and Davidski asked if anyone on AG could label and filter them so they could be added to the main spreadsheet.

Any help would be appreciated :).

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1B9OrNmXpVNoKBMB8S7lH7UeKvsbCGAI2/view?usp=sharing

Inspired by xerxez

Belgian samples by closest population

https://pastebin.com/raw/80dPFgKf

Belgian averages by closest population


BELGIAN__Austrian,0.130897,0.137096,0.053174,0.032 946,0.036007,0.014223,0.01034,0.004154,0.002863,-0.002369,-0.008607,0.001349,-0.002973,0.009221,0.004207,-0.001061,-0.007171,0.006714,0.003268,-5e-04,-0.000125,0.003462,0.004807,0.004097,-0.001437
BELGIAN__English_Cornwall,0.1293032,0.1399402,0.05 80766,0.0346902,0.0393302,0.014112,0.003666,0.0062 308,0.0092446,0.0053212,-0.0076972,0.0063244,-0.011774,-0.00278,0.0200052,-0.0061258,-0.020079,0.0019258,0.0032682,0.0005504,0.0052158,0 .0028192,0.0036726,0.0093022,-0.0006704
BELGIAN__French_Alsace,0.1276317,0.1409448,0.05082 21,0.0247605,0.0389141,0.0107814,0.0035436,0.00572 65,0.0060227,0.0089488,-0.0040041,0.0055017,-0.0098977,-0.0036288,0.0103862,-0.0029204,-0.0110758,0.0024104,0.0028051,-0.0011387,0.0033788,0.0018158,-6.81e-05,0.0071505,0.0005232
BELGIAN__French_Brittany,0.1286202,0.1387692,0.055 1484,0.034542,0.0392832,0.0125829,0.0026818,0.0054 161,0.0071343,0.0078362,-0.0058746,0.0060301,-0.012881,-0.0086622,0.0152326,-0.0009127,-0.0096101,-4.48e-05,0.0010056,0.0010152,0.0041324,0.0039641,0.00025 36,0.0095831,0.0014792
BELGIAN__French_Nord,0.1284875,0.1412277,0.0526687 ,0.0278846,0.0390751,0.0097801,0.0029021,0.0051731 ,0.008165,0.0109306,-0.0040692,0.0057532,-0.0118293,-0.0076387,0.0136261,0.0010529,-0.008418,0.0016813,0.0029387,0.0004529,0.0029014,0 .0028308,-0.000852,0.0082838,-5.47e-05
BELGIAN__French_Occitanie,0.12862,0.14319,0.048271 ,0.016473,0.040315,0.003904,0.00282,0.005769,0.014 93,0.014397,-0.004222,0.008393,-0.010109,-0.003441,0.011943,-0.000398,-0.015516,0.004181,0.005782,-0.005878,0.006239,-0.000989,-0.006779,0.001566,0.000359
BELGIAN__French_Paris,0.128349,0.1404333,0.0508394 ,0.0248095,0.0404471,0.0093229,0.001701,0.0033295, 0.0092329,0.0137719,-0.0044231,0.0059019,-0.0127423,-0.0131268,0.0133846,0.0103421,0.0047311,0.0008928, 0.0018615,0.0015483,0.0027213,0.0037803,-0.0009743,0.0135302,-0.0015909
BELGIAN__French_Pas-de-Calais,0.1294453,0.1401177,0.0516089,0.0275115,0.0 402921,0.0109604,0.0040009,0.0045172,0.0070868,0.0 107246,-0.0042058,0.0044736,-0.0106886,-0.0122003,0.0118959,0.0132324,0.0095832,0.0007633, 0.0010873,0.0042176,0.0050754,0.001963,-0.0004314,0.0083775,-0.0017693
BELGIAN__French_Provence,0.1252054,0.1462364,0.039 7484,0.0047804,0.0347758,0.0041832,0.002491,0.0033 692,0.0070762,0.018005,-0.0009744,0.0071336,-0.0119226,-0.0037984,0.0049404,-0.0015378,-0.0032856,0.00261,0.002514,-0.0053028,0.002396,0.001929,-0.0015036,0.0062898,0.0015328
BELGIAN__French_Seine-Maritime,0.128051,0.1416665,0.0497795,0.0321385,0. 041854,0.0136655,0.003055,0.0045,0.0107375,0.01248 35,-0.0068205,0.00607,-0.007805,0.002477,0.015608,-0.0036465,-0.019753,-0.0015835,0.0011315,-0.0038145,-0.0003745,0.0037715,0.0018485,0.0093385,0.002814
BELGIAN__German,0.1306121,0.138112,0.0563796,0.035 7319,0.0378146,0.0139795,0.0029081,0.0051342,0.006 1101,0.0057632,-0.0045874,0.0052826,-0.0097745,-0.0035095,0.0123675,0.0014584,-0.0040745,0.0008392,0.0012568,0.0023604,0.0012634, 0.0033695,0.0009706,0.0071695,0.0012424
BELGIAN__Italian_Aosta_Valley,0.122929,0.144205,0. 039598,0.005814,0.037853,0.01004,0.002585,0.006692 ,0.010431,0.015308,-0.001624,0.005095,-0.012339,-0.010597,0.006922,0.016839,0.016559,-0.003927,0.002765,0.000625,-0.00025,0.000742,-0.001725,0.008073,-0.000599
BELGIAN__Italian_Bergamo,0.1263435,0.147252,0.0303 58,-0.007752,0.031852,-0.000279,0.0022325,-0.0016155,0.0092035,0.0253305,-0.0014615,0.0052455,-0.0089195,-0.0048855,-0.0079395,-0.0052375,-0.0046285,0.0019005,0.0038335,-0.0071285,-0.0005615,0.003648,-0.0053615,0.0028315,0.0030535
BELGIAN__Italian_Northeast,0.12236,0.14319,0.03035 85,0.0056525,0.0336985,0.0051595,0.0036425,-0.0006925,0.003477,0.0165835,-0.0038975,0.0041965,-0.0124875,0.0001375,0.0008145,0.006099,0.0096485,-6.35e-05,0.001508,0.002439,0.0027455,0.002102,-0.0025265,0.00482,0.000539
BELGIAN__Italian_Piedmont,0.119514,0.136081,0.0256 44,-0.003876,0.029236,-0.007251,-0.000705,-0.000923,0.006545,0.012392,-0.000974,0.003897,-0.002527,-0.005092,0.002443,-0.000265,-0.00339,0.00152,0.003394,0.000875,0.006239,-0.000742,-0.000246,0.007471,0.000479
BELGIAN__Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige,0.123498,0.1462365,0.033375,-0.0056525,0.036314,-0.0036255,0.0034075,0.0013845,0.0077715,0.01795,0. 0018675,0.008093,-0.0098115,-0.0019955,-0.0016965,-0.008088,-0.0073665,0.0027875,0.0051535,-0.003877,-0.001747,0.005193,-0.003204,0.0040365,-0.0001795
BELGIAN__Italian_Veneto,0.125205,0.150298,0.031112 ,-0.006783,0.0356985,-0.002231,0.0024675,0.001269,0.0093055,0.01795,-0.0040595,0.003672,-0.005649,-0.001858,-0.0069895,-0.001326,-0.005411,0.004244,0.005845,-0.002689,-0.0011855,-0.0012365,0.000616,0.000241,0.000958
BELGIAN__Orcadian,0.127482,0.135065,0.056568,0.045 866,0.039392,0.014781,-0.00329,0.006231,0.008999,0.007107,-0.007795,0.004346,-0.008176,-0.012799,0.015336,0.00411,-0.011083,0.003674,0,-0.006503,0.001622,-0.002226,-0.004067,0.015665,-0.006706
BELGIAN__Spanish_Barcelones,0.129758,0.146236,0.04 186,0.007752,0.043085,0.002789,0.00658,-0.000231,0.012271,0.022233,0.000487,0.004496,-0.011893,-0.001239,0.005157,-0.008751,-0.019688,0.000887,0.006788,-0.007128,0.004617,-0.003215,0.002218,0.00735,0.003353
BELGIAN__Swiss_French,0.126344,0.142174,0.0426145, 0.0163115,0.038007,0.003765,-0.00141,0.002423,0.0087945,0.0105695,0.000406,0.00 57695,-0.01167,-0.011285,0.009704,0.0050385,0.009583,-0.0017105,0.0002515,0.0010005,0.0026205,0.0001855,-0.000986,0.007832,-0.000419
BELGIAN__Swiss_German,0.1258377,0.140933,0.0468468 ,0.0223229,0.0398364,0.0094511,0.0041778,0.005487, 0.0078856,0.0140321,-0.0027606,0.00746,-0.0149158,-0.0053827,0.0105411,-0.0050679,-0.0108218,0.0001689,0.001243,-0.0022233,0.0028283,0.0033524,-0.0019994,0.0066408,-0.0009979

dchicn
01-24-2022, 11:22 PM
I tried to play around with PCA plots and distances to my mother and grandmother (who come from the border region between the Netherlands and Belgium in southern Dutch Limburg, my mom actually has some Walloon ancestry from the region of LiŤge), but it's way out of my league to actually analyse them. I was about to advice you that the French forum section would probably be kind and skilled enough to help you along, but it seems some of the French members have already found their way here!

On a sidenote, interestingly, when adding them to the modern individuals sheet, all of our distances are colonized by these new samples:Yep. Me, too, not surprisingly.

Distance to: DavidC_scaled
0.01760816 Belgian:8327817131_R03C01
0.01779460 Belgian:8327817131_R04C01
0.01796316 Belgian:8327817141_R04C01
0.01826796 Belgian:8543229075_R04C02
0.01846428 Belgian:8543229098_R05C01
0.01855063 Belgian:8543229075_R04C01
0.01869240 Belgian:5434289001_R05C02
0.01927594 Belgian:8546260098_R05C01
0.01990617 Belgian:8327817147_R05C02
0.02013666 Belgian:8327817147_R04C02
0.02021388 Belgian:5443804058_R01C02
0.02037122 Belgian:5434289099_R02C01
0.02066335 Belgian:8543229003_R06C01
0.02093568 Belgian:8327817141_R01C01
0.02107970 Belgian:5434289071_R01C01
0.02111417 Belgian:8324843039_R02C01
0.02111799 Belgian:8327817122_R03C02
0.02139591 Belgian:5443804115_R02C02
0.02139780 Belgian:8543229215_R05C01
0.02140973 Belgian:8543229003_R05C01
0.02154859 Belgian:5434289051_R05C01
0.02155758 Belgian:8327817147_R03C01
0.02174728 Afrikaner:AFR053
0.02175187 Belgian:5434289071_R05C02
0.02188532 Belgian:5434289051_R02C01

Dewsloth
01-24-2022, 11:32 PM
No wonder Dad always seems to get Belgian, it contains reference "influences" from all the regions where his actual known ancestry originates.

Known ancestry:
Mostly (West) German and British; (60%+)
Also some Swiss German, Rhine Jewish and Belgian;
Maybe a Huguenot 500 years ago.

Target: DewslothDad_scaled
Distance: 0.9788% / 0.00978760
23.4 BELGIAN__Swiss_German
18.8 BELGIAN__German
17.2 BELGIAN__French_Pas-de-Calais
16.8 BELGIAN__Italian_Northeast
7.6 BELGIAN__French_Brittany
7.6 BELGIAN__French_Seine-Maritime
4.2 BELGIAN__Italian_Aosta_Valley
3.6 BELGIAN__French_Paris
0.8 BELGIAN__Italian_Bergamo

Distance to: DewslothDad_scaled
0.01539699 BELGIAN__French_Nord
0.01710576 BELGIAN__Swiss_German
0.01773604 BELGIAN__French_Alsace
0.01822733 BELGIAN__French_Paris
0.02068166 BELGIAN__German
0.02096047 BELGIAN__French_Pas-de-Calais
0.02100415 BELGIAN__French_Brittany
0.02208523 BELGIAN__Swiss_French
0.02645210 BELGIAN__French_Occitanie
0.02760943 BELGIAN__French_Seine-Maritime
0.02835557 BELGIAN__French_Provence
0.03230946 BELGIAN__English_Cornwall
0.03295076 BELGIAN__Austrian
0.03329634 BELGIAN__Italian_Northeast
0.03356275 BELGIAN__Italian_Aosta_Valley
0.03584436 BELGIAN__Orcadian
0.03844472 BELGIAN__Spanish_Barcelones
0.04359142 BELGIAN__Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige
0.04549242 BELGIAN__Italian_Piedmont
0.04703553 BELGIAN__Italian_Veneto
0.04844459 BELGIAN__Italian_Bergamo

CGPF
01-25-2022, 09:55 AM
Deleted

CGPF
01-25-2022, 09:57 AM
Well, here it is, I imputed the file up to about 30 million SNPs. A PLINK file is available to amateurs (about 2Gb before compression), as well as its restriction to 1240K. I incorporated it into my minimal base of MDS, which contains only official public data (that is, in particular, for those who remember it, without the Germans obtained from a very ... unofficial source ). So 482925 SNPs, overall genotyping rate 0.998. Here is the P1-P2 plan of the MDS, without the codes, and with them (a very large PDF).
48137
48138

Could you also show the Danish, Dutch and Irish on the (blank) MDS?

altvred
01-25-2022, 10:25 AM
I tried to play around with PCA plots and distances to my mother and grandmother (who come from the border region between the Netherlands and Belgium in southern Dutch Limburg, my mom actually has some Walloon ancestry from the region of LiŤge), but it's way out of my league to actually analyse them. I was about to advice you that the French forum section would probably be kind and skilled enough to help you along, but it seems some of the French members have already found their way here!

On a sidenote, interestingly, when adding them to the modern individuals sheet, all of our distances are colonized by these new samples:

It looks like Belgians are the quincentennial generic Northwest Euros with an equidistant genetic distance from everybody around them French, Dutch, to a lesser extent some Germans, and the Southern English (the English_Kent samples from the 1KG). It makes sense from a purely geographic perspective if you think about it.



@anglesqueville

I've got Danish samples from this Danish twins study (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/geo/query/acc.cgi?acc=GSE76390) in case you need them. I already removed one twin from each pair, so there shouldn't be any related individuals on there.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1TL1MKkzuqsiW0S4ysrT31fP58GhE4lXs/view?usp=sharing

anglesqueville
01-25-2022, 11:04 AM
@anglesqueville

I've got Danish samples from this Danish twins study (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/geo/query/acc.cgi?acc=GSE76390) in case you need them. I already removed one twin from each pair, so there shouldn't be any related individuals on there.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1TL1MKkzuqsiW0S4ysrT31fP58GhE4lXs/view?usp=sharing

Wow! Are you related to Santa Claus? :first:

anglesqueville
01-25-2022, 11:07 AM
Could you also show the Danish, Dutch and Irish on the (blank) MDS?

Unfortunately, I don't have reliable official data for these groups. I will try to add the Danes, if altvred's file gives satisfying results.

altvred
01-25-2022, 12:34 PM
Next samples, as all my precedent message was too long


Belgian:8327817122_R02C02_French_North,0.127482,0. 14319,0.056191,0.021641,0.042162,0.011435,0.000705 ,0.009692,0.010635,0.009841,-0.009419,0.006594,-0.005946,-0.005643,0.013301,0.008486,-0.003912,0.001394,0.007793,0.003001,0.004367,0.002 844,0.001479,0.006145,-0.001676
Belgian:8327817122_R03C01_French_Provence,0.119514 ,0.136081,0.025644,-0.003876,0.029236,-0.007251,-0.000705,-0.000923,0.006545,0.012392,-0.000974,0.003897,-0.002527,-0.005092,0.002443,-0.000265,-0.00339,0.00152,0.003394,0.000875,0.006239,-0.000742,-0.000246,0.007471,0.000479
Belgian:8327817122_R03C02_French_North,0.133173,0. 135065,0.04978,0.029716,0.040007,0.009761,0.00423, 0.006231,0.006954,0.006378,-0.003897,0.004046,-0.011298,-0.00234,0.010043,-0.001724,-0.002217,0.003421,0.004022,0.002001,0.005989,0.001 607,0.001972,0.010242,-0.00479
Belgian:8327817122_R04C02_French_North,0.134311,0. 137096,0.053928,0.027778,0.041238,0.011156,0.00705 ,0.006231,0.01309,0.012028,-0.002598,0.002098,-0.009812,-0.005918,0.013843,0.009016,-0.003781,0.005321,0.002263,-0.002501,0.012603,-0.001607,0.000493,0.013014,0.000359
Belgian:8327817122_R05C01_French_North,0.130897,0. 137096,0.055437,0.030362,0.041546,0.006972,0.00728 5,0.006461,0.007567,0.008201,-0.002436,0.003897,-0.011893,-0.010872,0.014794,-0.00053,-0.012256,-0.002787,0.002388,0.002626,0.004866,0.008903,-0.004807,0.017111,0.004071
Belgian:8327817122_R05C02_French_Provence,0.126344 ,0.149283,0.037712,-0.002261,0.031698,0.004462,0.00047,0.006231,0.0063 4,0.015855,0.000162,0.004196,-0.007136,0,0.012486,-0.007955,-0.015907,0.000507,0.003771,-0.001501,-0.000125,0.008161,0.001356,0.006627,0.00479
Belgian:8327817122_R06C01_French_North,0.12862,0.1 41159,0.05242,0.020672,0.037238,0.009482,0.006815, 0.006692,-0.001636,0.008201,-0.005684,0.004496,-0.009068,-0.011423,0.018865,0.012198,0.012517,-0.002787,-0.000377,0.001876,0.007986,0.002473,0.001725,0.011 327,-0.006107
Belgian:8327817131_R01C01_French_North,0.127482,0. 147252,0.040352,0.01615,0.030467,0.008646,0.00752, 0.008769,0.008999,0.012028,-0.004547,0.007044,-0.008771,0.003441,0.003393,-0.013789,-0.011995,-0.001014,0.003394,0.000125,0.004367,-0.005564,0.002835,0.010122,0
Belgian:8327817131_R01C02_French_North,0.122929,0. 140143,0.052043,0.016796,0.045547,0.008646,0.00752 ,0.005769,0.006545,0.012028,-0.004384,0.007793,-0.017393,-0.007156,0.014251,-0.003447,-0.014473,0.005954,0.00176,-0.002626,0.000374,0.001855,0.005423,0.010363,-0.003473
Belgian:8327817131_R02C01_French_North,0.12862,0.1 4319,0.04978,0.033592,0.03693,0.003347,0.00188,0.0 04384,0.00634,0.006378,-0.002436,0.006594,-0.012933,-0.003165,0.015336,-0.004773,-0.019688,0.006968,0.011564,-0.006003,0.003619,0.002473,0.001602,0.011568,0.001 676
Belgian:8327817131_R02C02_French_North,0.127482,0. 136081,0.05506,0.034884,0.03693,0.013666,0.004935, 0.008538,0.006136,0.007107,0.002761,0.008692,-0.009514,-0.002064,0.014386,0,-0.004824,0.001647,0.004022,0.002126,-0.00025,0.004328,-0.003081,0.00494,-0.002754
Belgian:8327817131_R03C01_French_North,0.124067,0. 136081,0.050911,0.027778,0.038776,0.009482,0.00540 5,0.002077,0.007363,0.015126,0.000325,0.006594,-0.007879,-0.007844,0.007736,0.001989,-0.00665,-0.001267,0.003771,0.001376,0.000374,-0.000618,0.001479,0.00976,-0.000239
Belgian:8327817131_R03C02_French_North,0.125205,0. 132019,0.04978,0.024871,0.038776,0.004462,-0.00094,0.006461,0.006749,0.008201,-0.003573,0.007943,-0.013677,-0.005643,0.011808,0.005967,0.002868,0.004054,0.009 176,0.004002,-0.000125,0.006801,-0.005916,0.000843,-0.002395
Belgian:8327817131_R04C01_French_North,0.132035,0. 141159,0.053551,0.034561,0.045239,0.014502,-0.00094,0.004154,0.00409,0.008747,-0.00341,0.007044,-0.013974,-0.005643,0.012622,0.003845,-0.002868,0.00152,-0.000628,0.003377,0.003244,-0.002473,-0.00037,0.011809,0.005269
Belgian:8327817131_R05C01_French_North,0.129758,0. 137096,0.052797,0.02261,0.041854,0.016176,-0.000235,0.006461,0.007567,0.014214,-0.000974,0.007493,-0.009663,0.003028,0.015065,-0.005171,-0.013169,0.008488,0.008422,-0.004127,0.001123,0.000989,0.005546,0.002651,0.002 634
Belgian:8327817131_R05C02_French_North,0.127482,0. 135065,0.053174,0.026163,0.043085,0.007809,0.00258 5,0.003231,0.013703,0.010934,-0.003735,0.010041,-0.016055,-0.002064,0.018187,-0.007027,-0.014864,0.002914,0.009427,0.004502,0.004367,0.005 812,0.001109,0.001807,0.005987
Belgian:8327817131_R06C01_French_Provence,0.125205 ,0.147252,0.032809,-0.000323,0.033852,-0.002789,0.001175,0.000231,0.00409,0.018588,0.0056 84,0.010191,-0.00996,0.001514,-0.002307,-0.01074,-0.013038,0.004181,0.003645,-0.004252,-0.00549,0.00272,-0.00419,0.000482,0.001078
Belgian:8327817131_R06C02_French_North,0.127482,0. 140143,0.05242,0.032623,0.035699,0.005578,0.004935 ,0.006461,0.006749,0.003645,0.00065,0.008243,-0.013825,-0.006193,0.020765,-0.00769,-0.008605,0.000633,-0.005908,-0.006753,0.00574,0.004822,-0.007025,0.008796,-0.000838
Belgian:8327817141_R01C01_French_North,0.129758,0. 142174,0.05506,0.0323,0.041854,0.011713,0.003995,0 .003,0.007363,0.006014,-0.002923,0.007044,-0.013082,-0.009909,0.009908,0.004773,-0.000652,0.00152,0.004651,0.002501,0.004617,-0.001113,-0.006779,0.012652,-0.003353
Belgian:8327817141_R01C02_French_North,0.122929,0. 137096,0.041106,0.015504,0.040315,0.002231,0,0.003 461,0.005931,0.010023,-0.004547,0.006594,-0.003122,-0.001927,0.007057,-0.001326,0.001825,0.001267,0.002011,-0.001751,0.002496,0.007914,-0.000123,0.00964,-0.000599
Belgian:8327817141_R02C02_French_North,0.126344,0. 141159,0.050534,0.036499,0.035391,0.014781,-0.00094,0.004846,0.003681,0.002005,-0.003735,0.005395,-0.013231,-0.003853,0.010179,-0.003315,-0.010561,0.002914,0.001508,-0.008879,-0.000749,0.003339,0.000246,0.010724,-0.00479
Belgian:8327817141_R03C01_French_North,0.129758,0. 140143,0.045632,0.026486,0.03693,0.008088,-0.003525,0.000692,0.003272,0.009841,-0.011205,0.004946,-0.006987,-0.001927,0.014115,-0.013789,-0.020992,0.002787,0.003394,-0.005002,0.010232,0.001484,-0.00493,0.011086,0.002515
Belgian:8327817141_R04C01_French_North,0.130897,0. 139128,0.049026,0.0323,0.040315,0.014223,0.001645, 0.004154,0.006545,0.004556,-0.004709,0.004496,-0.010258,-0.004954,0.015336,0.007823,-0.005607,0.005448,0.006159,0.002501,0.006114,-0.006554,0.002095,0.007591,0.00491
Belgian:8327817141_R04C02_French_North,0.126344,0. 146236,0.049403,0.02584,0.044316,0.011992,0.00705, 0.004846,0.010226,0.008383,-0.005521,0.005695,-0.008622,-0.004679,0.013979,0.001856,-0.004042,0.00114,0.000754,0.000625,-0.005615,0.006554,-0.00419,0.003735,-0.00012
Belgian:8327817141_R05C01_French_North,0.133173,0. 149283,0.054682,0.030039,0.04647,0.005857,0.003525 ,0.003231,0.005727,0.015308,-0.007307,0.006294,-0.006838,-0.005092,0.013301,-0.004641,-0.026729,0.003927,0.010936,0.002626,0.002371,0.000 495,-0.003697,0.005904,-0.001437
Belgian:8327817141_R05C02_French_North,0.125205,0. 139128,0.051288,0.025517,0.039084,0.005578,-0.00141,0.005077,0.010635,0.01713,-0.000812,0.003597,-0.00892,-0.004404,0.014115,0.001989,-0.002477,0.00228,0.006034,-0.004627,-0.001872,0.008532,-0.005546,0.010122,-0.002275
Belgian:8327817141_R06C01_French_North,0.133173,0. 144205,0.053174,0.033269,0.03693,0.018128,0.002585 ,0.003,0.007976,0.010205,0.000974,0.005695,-0.013825,-0.004542,0.012079,-0.007425,-0.018906,0.00076,0.004148,-0.006753,0.00025,-0.001607,-0.002958,0.008555,0.003832
Belgian:8327817147_R01C01_NW_European,0.127482,0.1 35065,0.056568,0.045866,0.039392,0.014781,-0.00329,0.006231,0.008999,0.007107,-0.007795,0.004346,-0.008176,-0.012799,0.015336,0.00411,-0.011083,0.003674,0,-0.006503,0.001622,-0.002226,-0.004067,0.015665,-0.006706
Belgian:8327817147_R01C02_French_North,0.126344,0. 146236,0.052043,0.024225,0.045855,0.01004,0.00611, 0.001385,0.003477,0.013668,-0.004547,0.004946,-0.013528,-0.017203,0.007193,0.014717,0.019818,-0.003547,-0.003268,0.011756,0.007112,0.006677,0.000123,0.004 458,-0.005987
Belgian:8327817147_R02C02_French_North,0.126344,0. 133034,0.05506,0.024548,0.042162,0.00753,0.008225, 0.009923,0.008181,0.008383,-0.006983,0.002847,-0.008622,-0.01101,0.00855,0.013524,0.013169,-0.003674,0.004902,0.006753,0.000374,-0.000495,-0.000493,0.006507,0.005029
Belgian:8327817147_R03C01_French_North,0.126344,0. 140143,0.048271,0.030685,0.035699,0.009761,-0.003525,-0.002538,0.006545,0.009294,0.00065,0.001948,-0.006244,-0.001789,0.013165,0.009679,0.001434,0.0019,0.00578 2,0.002376,0.00287,-0.004822,0,0.006145,0.000838
Belgian:8327817147_R03C02_French_North,0.117238,0. 150298,0.054305,0.027778,0.035083,0.01004,0.003525 ,0.005077,-0.000205,0.006196,-0.006171,0.005245,-0.00773,-0.002477,0.014386,-0.001856,-0.01695,0.003547,0.006662,-0.002876,0.001373,0.01014,0.000863,0.006989,0.0023 95
Belgian:8327817147_R04C02_French_North,0.12862,0.1 36081,0.05242,0.025517,0.040931,0.008367,0.00705,0 .005307,0.006749,0.011481,-0.000812,0.007793,-0.015461,-0.00867,0.011672,-0.005304,-0.00013,-0.000127,0.000377,0.003877,0.001497,0.003215,0.000 493,0.011206,0.000718
Belgian:8327817147_R05C02_French_North,0.125205,0. 142174,0.05242,0.025517,0.037853,0.011435,0.00658, 0.008538,0.006136,0.015855,-0.004384,0.006894,-0.017542,-0.009083,0.014251,0.000398,-0.00352,-0.003041,0.00176,0.002876,0.000125,-0.000247,-0.003204,0.00964,0.002275
Belgian:8327817147_R06C01_French_North,0.130897,0. 142174,0.056568,0.018088,0.044316,0.00502,0,0.0073 84,0.015135,0.012939,-0.007795,0.009292,-0.016947,-0.015414,0.018187,0.005967,-0.008214,-0.001014,0.002388,0.001751,-0.001248,0.003957,-0.00493,0.013496,-0.004311
Belgian:8327817147_R06C02_French_North,0.129758,0. 140143,0.058077,0.031977,0.038776,0.014781,0.00258 5,0.004154,0.005522,0.008383,-0.003735,0.006594,-0.011298,-0.008808,0.00855,0.003182,-0.009518,-0.000127,0.004022,-0.001876,0.001248,0.005441,0.000616,0.00735,-0.004191
Belgian:8543229003_R01C01_French_North,0.130897,0. 148267,0.051666,0.028424,0.042777,0.011713,0.00117 5,0.001846,0.011453,0.008747,0.002273,0.009891,-0.014866,-0.003028,0.018187,0.002254,-0.005607,-0.001774,0.002011,0.004127,0.003993,0.004328,0.007 641,0.009399,-0.002515
Belgian:8543229003_R01C02_French_North,0.127482,0. 144205,0.050911,0.022933,0.0397,0.012271,-0.002115,0.003231,0.005113,0.011299,-0.005034,0.01109,-0.017839,-0.005918,0.015608,-0.010607,-0.019297,0.003294,0.000754,-0.007504,0.007986,0.000742,-0.003821,0.004338,-0.003353
Belgian:8543229003_R02C01_French_North,0.125205,0. 14319,0.049403,0.02261,0.045239,0.00753,0.000705,0 .007154,0.009613,0.015308,-0.002436,0.002698,-0.007879,-0.009634,0.010043,0.004641,-0.006128,0.003167,0.003017,-0.005628,0.001497,0.001484,0.003944,0.01217,-0.002155
Belgian:8543229003_R03C02_French_North,0.12862,0.1 41159,0.059208,0.022287,0.034468,0.003068,0.00094, 0.004846,0.012067,0.014761,-0.003897,0.005095,-0.014717,-0.011973,0.016965,0.006629,-0.010822,0.005321,-0.006536,0.006878,0.005241,-0.005193,-0.000493,0.006507,0.000718
Belgian:8543229003_R04C01_French_North,0.124067,0. 141159,0.051666,0.029716,0.038469,0.010877,0.00752 ,0.010384,0.000818,0.01057,-0.007145,0.007793,-0.014717,-0.006193,0.018187,0.000796,-0.013299,0.004181,0.007793,0.001626,0.002745,0.009 645,-0.003574,0.007712,0.003712
Belgian:8543229003_R05C01_French_North,0.127482,0. 140143,0.053551,0.027132,0.034776,0.004741,0.00282 ,0.003923,0.003886,0.016766,-0.00065,0.005995,-0.011596,-0.008945,0.013843,0.009281,-0.001173,0.001394,0.005908,-0.001,0.002496,0.004081,0.007025,0.001566,0.005389
Belgian:8543229003_R05C02_French_North,0.125205,0. 140143,0.050157,0.030685,0.041854,0.008646,0.00705 ,0.006231,0.008999,0.011299,0.000487,0.002847,-0.010109,-0.00867,0.016151,-0.005171,-0.014342,0.000507,0.002011,0.01038,0.000374,0.0074 19,-0.002465,0.013134,0.000838
Belgian:8543229003_R06C01_French_North,0.127482,0. 139128,0.050157,0.031008,0.039392,0.01004,0.00752, 0.00923,0.001841,0.005649,-0.005196,0.008542,-0.014717,-0.009634,0.010043,-0.000663,0.00339,-0.001647,0.001885,-0.002501,0.003494,-0.000247,-0.003451,0.003976,0.002874
Belgian:8543229003_R06C02_French_North,0.127482,0. 14319,0.05506,0.02907,0.036007,0.010598,0.003525,0 .002308,0.005522,0.00893,-0.006008,0.007343,-0.013974,-0.004542,0.011536,0.002917,0.000652,0.005574,0.009 553,-0.001,-0.003619,0.001855,0.005053,0.010483,-0.000599
Belgian:8543229075_R01C01_French_North,0.122929,0. 136081,0.046386,0.030685,0.044316,0.01255,0,0.0062 31,0.010431,0.01057,0.00065,0.004346,-0.012339,-0.020093,0.017779,0.012861,0.010561,-0.004687,0,-0.003001,0.006613,0.002102,0.006409,0.017472,0.002 275
Belgian:8543229075_R02C01_French_North,0.130897,0. 145221,0.054682,0.025194,0.038469,0.010877,0.00188 ,0.004846,0.01309,0.015308,-0.006171,0.004496,-0.010258,-0.014588,0.014251,-0.000133,-0.010822,0.003041,0.012947,-0.005253,0.003868,0.007172,-0.00037,0.01205,0.002395
Belgian:8543229075_R02C02_French_North,0.130897,0. 136081,0.051288,0.026486,0.039084,0.005578,0.00282 ,0.001154,0.003886,0.00656,-0.001137,0.003747,-0.009366,-0.001651,0.011672,-0.008353,-0.016689,-0.00076,-0.000503,-0.003502,0.001123,0.001237,-0.001725,0.012291,0.002874
Belgian:8543229075_R03C01_French_North,0.125205,0. 14319,0.049026,0.029716,0.041238,0.013945,0.006345 ,0.007154,0.012067,0.008747,-0.004222,0.005545,-0.013082,-0.01101,0.016694,0.005171,0.000391,0.004434,0.0047 77,-0.002126,0.009234,-0.00272,-0.001602,0.003494,-0.003233
Belgian:8543229075_R03C02_French_Provence,0.121791 ,0.140143,0.041106,0.011305,0.036007,0.003068,-0.00188,0.003923,0.01084,0.014032,0.001786,0.00734 3,-0.011744,-0.008257,0.007193,0.001193,0.004172,-0.001394,0.005782,-0.00025,0.003868,0.000124,-0.005669,0.003494,0.002994
Belgian:8543229075_R04C01_French_North,0.127482,0. 138112,0.052043,0.033269,0.041238,0.010598,0.00587 5,0.011076,0.005727,0.009841,-0.006496,0.005545,-0.011298,-0.008395,0.016015,0.004641,-0.002477,0.002407,0.001508,0.003752,0.00025,0.0024 73,0.002342,0.010965,0.004191
Belgian:8543229075_R04C02_French_North,0.127482,0. 135065,0.052043,0.024548,0.037545,0.011713,0.00305 5,0.005769,0.00634,0.010205,-0.002436,0.005245,-0.00892,-0.008533,0.006243,0.005436,-0.001956,0.001394,0.003394,0.002626,0.003993,-0.003462,-0.000616,0.009519,-0.003712
Belgian:8543229075_R05C01_French_North,0.12862,0.1 42174,0.050911,0.032623,0.044624,0.008367,0,0.0002 31,0.011249,0.014943,-0.002436,0.006444,-0.01115,-0.011973,0.013979,0.00411,0.005998,0.002154,0.0031 42,0.002001,0.010981,0.005317,-0.001602,0.001325,-0.006227
Belgian:8543229075_R05C02_French_North,0.129758,0. 144205,0.054682,0.020672,0.041238,0.012829,0.00305 5,0.004846,0.005727,0.008565,-0.012017,0.006444,-0.011001,-0.010184,0.015744,-0.005171,-0.022296,-0.003294,0.005531,0.006378,0.004742,-0.000742,0.007641,0.003374,0.00467
Belgian:8543229075_R06C01_French_North,0.124067,0. 138112,0.05506,0.024548,0.044316,0.017012,0.001645 ,0.004384,0.011658,0.005649,-0.00341,0.003897,-0.012487,-0.003441,0.012215,-0.006364,-0.015255,0.001014,0,-0.004377,0.00287,0.000989,-0.003944,0.004097,-0.000359
Belgian:8543229098_R01C02_French_Provence,0.127482 ,0.145221,0.036204,0.010982,0.038776,0.004462,0.00 611,-0.000462,0,0.014397,-0.004547,0.006145,-0.01115,-0.000413,0.00095,0.013922,0.016689,0.000253,0.0011 31,0.005753,0.001373,0.003957,-0.002465,0.002651,-0.005269
Belgian:8543229098_R02C01_French_North,0.130897,0. 136081,0.052797,0.02261,0.042162,0.007809,0.005875 ,0.004846,0.009408,0.010023,-0.007307,0.010641,-0.013379,-0.011147,0.014522,0.002652,-0.012256,0.000127,0.000377,-0.001376,0.004118,0.008903,0.002588,0.00964,-0.000359
Belgian:8543229098_R02C02_French_North,0.129758,0. 136081,0.050911,0.022933,0.040931,0.009761,-0.00047,0.002077,0.008795,0.014032,-0.007632,0.001199,-0.010852,-0.01445,0.016015,0.014717,0.0103,0.000887,-0.003394,0.006253,0.005366,0.002844,0,0.008194,-0.007185
Belgian:8543229098_R04C01_French_North,0.126344,0. 144205,0.049403,0.024548,0.040007,0.012829,0.00376 ,0.002769,0.008795,0.009294,-0.003897,0.003897,-0.009514,-0.00867,0.015608,-0.005834,-0.011343,-0.003927,-0.004148,-0.004502,0.007487,0.000495,0.001356,0.007109,-0.001197
Belgian:8543229098_R04C02_French_North,0.125205,0. 137096,0.049026,0.027455,0.037853,0.014223,0.00211 5,0.007384,0.007158,0.011299,-0.004222,0.008542,-0.011298,-0.010735,0.0057,0.012198,0.010561,0.00152,0,0.0066 28,0.003119,0.002968,-0.000246,0.002651,-0.004431
Belgian:8543229098_R05C01_French_North,0.129758,0. 135065,0.046763,0.026486,0.035083,0.012829,0.00564 ,0.003,-0.001432,0.00893,-0.000974,0.004796,-0.009217,-0.004679,0.007465,0.006497,0.002608,0.00114,0.0099 3,0.003252,0.001622,0.000371,0.004807,0.000241,0.0 05389
Belgian:8543229098_R05C02_French_North,0.132035,0. 140143,0.056191,0.022287,0.044008,0.01004,0.003995 ,0.005538,0.006749,0.012757,-0.004872,0.004496,-0.013677,-0.018166,0.010858,0.012198,0.014733,0.004561,-0.002388,0.002876,0.00549,0.004081,0.006039,0.0042 17,-0.000958
Belgian:8543229098_R06C01_French_North,0.12862,0.1 42174,0.051288,0.021318,0.036622,0.008367,0.00094, 0.00923,0.011249,0.00893,-0.000974,0.001798,-0.00669,-0.005643,0.00665,-0.00305,-0.019166,0.007095,0.00352,-0.006003,0.003993,-0.003339,-0.003944,0.004699,0.00467
Belgian:8543229098_R06C02_French_Provence,0.129758 ,0.146236,0.04186,0.007752,0.043085,0.002789,0.006 58,-0.000231,0.012271,0.022233,0.000487,0.004496,-0.011893,-0.001239,0.005157,-0.008751,-0.019688,0.000887,0.006788,-0.007128,0.004617,-0.003215,0.002218,0.00735,0.003353
Belgian:8543229215_R01C01_French_North,0.12862,0.1 35065,0.051666,0.027778,0.039392,0.006972,0.00517, 0.006231,0.008999,0.01057,-0.001624,0.003297,-0.009514,-0.015276,0.017644,0.01843,0.004955,0.005321,0.0052 79,0.008254,0.006863,0.00371,-0.000493,0.010001,0.00455
Belgian:8543229215_R01C02_French_North,0.12862,0.1 38112,0.050911,0.036822,0.037545,0.015897,0.006815 ,0.010846,0.007363,0.008565,-0.00065,-0.000599,-0.006541,-0.00578,0.018322,-0.003713,-0.018515,0.005194,0.000628,-0.003502,0.010482,0.005688,0.000246,-0.000361,0.005987
Belgian:8543229215_R02C01_French_North,0.129758,0. 140143,0.05242,0.023256,0.042469,0.00753,-0.00047,0.003,0.010022,0.011116,-0.007307,0.004946,-0.013082,-0.005643,0.017101,0.009944,0.005998,0.00228,0.0038 97,0.004127,0.009483,0.000989,-0.002342,0.005904,-0.000599
Belgian:8543229215_R02C02_French_North,0.136588,0. 142174,0.052043,0.02907,0.040315,0.01506,0.001645, 0.005538,0.004295,0.012392,0.007145,0.007194,-0.012339,-0.013625,0.011536,0.017104,0.013169,0.000633,0.002 765,0.002751,0.00025,0.000495,-0.000986,0.008435,-0.003592
Belgian:8543229215_R03C01_French_North,0.125205,0. 136081,0.045254,0.026809,0.035391,0.007809,0.00517 ,0.002077,0.003477,0.013303,-0.006171,0.010641,-0.00892,-0.01968,0.011808,0.012596,0.01369,-0.002027,-0.000126,0.0005,0.007986,0.002968,0.000863,0.01458 ,0.001078
Belgian:8543229215_R03C02_French_North,0.126344,0. 138112,0.0445,0.022287,0.038776,0.013666,0.003995, 0.006,0.001841,0.001822,0.001299,0.005245,-0.007582,-0.007982,0.012622,0.004773,-0.002999,0.001014,-0.002011,0.003377,0.003993,0.00371,0.00419,0.00337 4,-0.001437
Belgian:8543229215_R04C01_French_North,0.12862,0.1 45221,0.052043,0.024871,0.041546,0.002231,0.011281 ,0.007846,0.014317,0.012939,-0.003573,0.005995,-0.009514,-0.002477,0.009365,0.003713,0.000782,0.002787,0.006 159,0.002501,0.003993,0.00136,-0.001972,0.008917,-0.001437
Belgian:8543229215_R04C02_French_North,0.129758,0. 149283,0.057322,0.030362,0.03416,0.015618,0.0047,0 .00923,0.008385,0.010023,-0.006983,0.007044,-0.018434,-0.00578,0.0095,-0.00305,-0.015646,0.002914,0.008547,0,0.007736,0.007296,0.0 0456,0.010845,-0.009101
Belgian:8543229215_R05C01_French_North,0.132035,0. 14319,0.053928,0.027455,0.040315,0.009203,0.0047,0 .005538,0.003681,0.008201,-0.007632,0.003147,-0.005054,-0.007294,0.010993,0.005834,0.001434,-0.00076,-0.00176,0.001126,0.007986,-0.006306,0.000863,0.005784,-0.001078
Belgian:8543229215_R05C02_French_North,0.124067,0. 141159,0.05506,0.026809,0.044624,0.013945,0.0047,0 ,0.009204,0.008565,-0.002923,0.006594,-0.011596,-0.004954,0.011672,-0.007027,-0.026989,0.003421,0.00817,-0.006378,0.005989,0.005812,-0.001109,0.006386,-0.000718
Belgian:8543229215_R06C01_French_North,0.130897,0. 141159,0.061471,0.032623,0.041854,0.010319,0.00211 5,0.006461,0.003068,0.006743,-0.005034,0.004196,-0.010258,-0.005643,0.013165,0.002519,-0.004563,-0.001774,0.001131,0.005253,-0.000998,0.000989,0.003821,0.010001,-0.003832
Belgian:8543229215_R06C02_French_North,0.129758,0. 139128,0.054682,0.031977,0.044624,0.011992,-0.00141,0.004846,0.016771,0.02278,-0.007957,0.006444,-0.010406,-0.009634,0.017915,0.010342,-0.007041,-0.00114,-0.001634,0.003377,0.008485,-0.003339,0.000246,0.010724,-0.003113
Belgian:8546260098_R01C02_French_North,0.127482,0. 135065,0.048271,0.031331,0.036007,0.010877,0.00023 5,0.006,0.004909,0.005467,-0.001299,0.007943,-0.00996,0.000688,0.016151,0.005967,0.001304,0.0068 41,0.000377,0.000125,0.000624,-0.002968,0.000246,0.006145,-0.000718
Belgian:8546260098_R02C01_French_North,0.124067,0. 139128,0.059585,0.029393,0.037853,0.011992,0.00517 ,0.006692,0.012067,0.007107,-0.009581,0.006744,-0.016353,-0.008945,0.013979,-0.003713,-0.011865,0.00076,-0.001885,0.003001,0.009483,0.006059,0.000493,0.008 555,-0.000359
Belgian:8546260098_R02C02_French_North,0.127482,0. 14319,0.0445,0.024548,0.040007,0.002789,0.003525,0 .006692,0.014726,0.013485,-0.007307,0.002698,-0.007582,-0.004954,0.016422,-0.005171,-0.019297,0.001774,0.001257,-0.001126,0.007237,-0.000742,-0.008258,0.000241,0
Belgian:8546260098_R03C02_French_North,0.127482,0. 141159,0.049026,0.026486,0.038161,0.010598,0.00658 ,0.008769,0.007772,0.007107,-0.007632,0.002997,-0.009514,-0.004129,0.009636,-0.007955,-0.02047,0.002787,-0.001006,0.002126,0.005989,0.005317,-0.000863,0.005904,0.001796
Belgian:8546260098_R04C02_French_North,0.125205,0. 141159,0.054682,0.033269,0.044008,0.006972,0.00517 ,0.013384,0.009613,0.010387,-0.012342,0.007793,-0.012487,-0.008945,0.016015,0.002519,-0.019036,0.001394,0.004274,-0.004752,0.001248,-0.000124,-0.009737,0.006266,0.001197
Belgian:8546260098_R05C01_French_North,0.129758,0. 142174,0.046386,0.031977,0.035391,0.013666,0.00564 ,0.008307,0.006136,0.007472,-0.000812,0.008243,-0.008622,-0.010597,0.014386,0.005436,0,-0.001647,-0.002388,0.005002,0.005615,0.000866,0.002342,0.009 519,-0.003952
Belgian:8546260098_R05C02_French_North,0.127482,0. 142174,0.051288,0.032946,0.040315,0.012829,0.00211 5,0.007846,0.007363,0.009841,-0.004222,0.008243,-0.006244,-0.000826,0.011672,-0.00358,-0.019036,-0.0019,0.000126,-0.007629,-0.003369,0.008656,0.001602,0.008676,0.002155
Belgian:8546260098_R06C01_French_North,0.127482,0. 140143,0.05506,0.033915,0.038161,0.016455,-0.001645,0.002769,0.001841,0.007107,-0.00747,0.009891,-0.01442,-0.011285,0.016286,-0.00305,-0.003781,-0.002027,-0.003897,0.008504,0.004118,0.002597,-0.000863,0.007832,0.000239
Belgian:8546260098_R06C02_French_North,0.132035,0. 141159,0.054682,0.039083,0.036314,0.009203,0.0094, 0.007384,0.003272,0.005649,-0.004384,0.005695,-0.009068,-0.010735,0.015201,-0.000928,-0.017863,0.000507,0.001383,-0.001251,0.002745,-0.001855,0.003081,0.004579,0.005508

Average coordinates for the 242 Belgians from Liege of the "French_North" cluster :


Belgian_Liege_scaled,0.128460190082645,0.140667665 289256,0.0520940495867768,0.0276658842975207,0.039 4033181818182,0.0104584049586777,0.003096760330578 51,0.00499379338842976,0.00765189669421488,0.01048 31074380165,-0.00427240082644628,0.00559464462809917,-0.0114818636363636,-0.00795426033057851,0.0129175495867768,0.002748719 00826446,-0.00503488429752066,0.00136476033057851,0.00226673 140495868,0.000851111570247933,0.00337161570247934 ,0.00268104545454546,-0.000450735537190083,0.00860754545454545,-0.000261752066115702

Unsurprisingly, extremely close to the northern French and Belgians of Davidski


Distance to: Belgian_Liege_average
0.00566295 French_Nord
0.00592535 Belgian
0.00928047 French_Alsace
0.01291137 French_Paris
0.01292111 Swiss_German
0.01541755 French_Pas-de-Calais
0.01736692 French_Brittany
0.01981998 French_Seine-Maritime
0.01983842 German
0.02233627 Afrikaner
0.02236238 French_Occitanie
0.02253354 Welsh
0.02372871 English_Cornwall
0.02469604 English
0.02542801 French_Auvergne
0.02648846 Austrian
0.02829807 Dutch
0.02847306 Swiss_French
0.02896802 Scottish
0.03006651 Orcadian
0.03261133 Irish
0.03289964 French_Provence
0.03411419 Shetlandic
0.03443052 Italian_Aosta_Valley
0.03514416 Danish

https://i.imgur.com/QyRUkz4.png

And for the fun, no significant differences between young and old people into the "French_north" cluster :

https://i.imgur.com/ygR5DJP.png

Good job, but I have to say you still end up with 200+ samples that take a lot of space on the PCA.

I thought of using their Celtic vs. Germanic coordinates and splitting them into three chunks according to their distance to Southern Dutch. I will be the first to admit that this is a rather arbitrary division. Still, you do have the added benefit of seeing the transition from Northern Dutch -> Central Dutch -> Southern Dutch -> Belgians/Northwestern French.

https://i.imgur.com/KYoUZ81.png

altvred
01-25-2022, 02:16 PM
Good job, but I have to say you still end up with 200+ samples that take a lot of space on the PCA.

I thought of using their Celtic vs. Germanic coordinates and splitting them into three chunks according to their distance to Southern Dutch. I will be the first to admit that this is a rather arbitrary division. Still, you do have the added benefit of seeing the transition from Northern Dutch -> Central Dutch -> Southern Dutch -> Belgians/Northwestern French.

https://i.imgur.com/KYoUZ81.png

G25 coordinates:

https://pastebin.com/B34yxjri

Celtic vs. Germanic

https://pastebin.com/S4Usuj0g

Target
Distance | ADC: 0.25x RC
TUR_Barcin_N
Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
WHG

Belgian
0.03730309
44.4
43.8
11.8

BelgianA:Average_scaled
0.03970283
43.2
44.2
12.6

BelgianB:Average_scaled
0.03616477
45.0
42.8
12.2

BelgianC:Average_scaled
0.03477729
46.6
41.4
12.0

Dutch
0.04460669
37.0
49.2
13.8

French_Alsace
0.03427035
46.4
42.2
11.4

French_Auvergne
0.03115245
51.6
35.8
12.6

French_Brittany
0.04331725
40.6
45.6
13.8

French_Corsica
0.02097469
64.8
29.6
5.6

French_Nord
0.03479817
45.8
42.2
12.0

French_Occitanie
0.03413899
50.4
36.2
13.4

French_Paris
0.03968746
47.0
40.6
12.4

French_Pas-de-Calais
0.03606465
44.4
41.4
14.2

Average
0.03591990
46.7
41.2
12.1



Averages



BelgianC:Average_scaled,0.1277725,0.1419149,0.0508 791,0.0229605,0.0391954,0.0086871,0.002265,0.00421 75,0.0093385,0.0135048,-0.0037038,0.0061892,-0.0118992,-0.0088576,0.0111001,0.0034896,-0.0031958,0.0009057,0.0018454,0.0007901,0.0028221, 0.0023757,-0.0013794,0.0076836,-0.0007312
BelgianB:Average_scaled,0.1281248,0.1405568,0.0514 525,0.0273443,0.0394289,0.0101769,0.0031464,0.0046 793,0.0076526,0.0108717,-0.0044732,0.0055881,-0.0116561,-0.0087684,0.0129425,0.0035382,-0.0037968,0.0012329,0.0021881,0.0005662,0.0034684, 0.0027662,-0.0006745,0.0087148,-0.0004956
BelgianA:Average_scaled,0.1294609,0.1400047,0.0541 468,0.03132,0.0396436,0.0120842,0.0033888,0.005782 2,0.0067911,0.0082462,-0.0044103,0.0052266,-0.0111901,-0.006681,0.0140933,0.0016814,-0.0075534,0.0017765,0.0024725,0.0012648,0.0035831, 0.0027583,0.0002101,0.0090592,0.0002259

Finn
01-25-2022, 02:20 PM
Next samples, as all my precedent message was too long


Belgian:8327817122_R02C02_French_North,0.127482,0. 14319,0.056191,0.021641,0.042162,0.011435,0.000705 ,0.009692,0.010635,0.009841,-0.009419,0.006594,-0.005946,-0.005643,0.013301,0.008486,-0.003912,0.001394,0.007793,0.003001,0.004367,0.002 844,0.001479,0.006145,-0.001676
Belgian:8327817122_R03C01_French_Provence,0.119514 ,0.136081,0.025644,-0.003876,0.029236,-0.007251,-0.000705,-0.000923,0.006545,0.012392,-0.000974,0.003897,-0.002527,-0.005092,0.002443,-0.000265,-0.00339,0.00152,0.003394,0.000875,0.006239,-0.000742,-0.000246,0.007471,0.000479
Belgian:8327817122_R03C02_French_North,0.133173,0. 135065,0.04978,0.029716,0.040007,0.009761,0.00423, 0.006231,0.006954,0.006378,-0.003897,0.004046,-0.011298,-0.00234,0.010043,-0.001724,-0.002217,0.003421,0.004022,0.002001,0.005989,0.001 607,0.001972,0.010242,-0.00479
Belgian:8327817122_R04C02_French_North,0.134311,0. 137096,0.053928,0.027778,0.041238,0.011156,0.00705 ,0.006231,0.01309,0.012028,-0.002598,0.002098,-0.009812,-0.005918,0.013843,0.009016,-0.003781,0.005321,0.002263,-0.002501,0.012603,-0.001607,0.000493,0.013014,0.000359
Belgian:8327817122_R05C01_French_North,0.130897,0. 137096,0.055437,0.030362,0.041546,0.006972,0.00728 5,0.006461,0.007567,0.008201,-0.002436,0.003897,-0.011893,-0.010872,0.014794,-0.00053,-0.012256,-0.002787,0.002388,0.002626,0.004866,0.008903,-0.004807,0.017111,0.004071
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Belgian:8543229098_R02C01_French_North,0.130897,0. 136081,0.052797,0.02261,0.042162,0.007809,0.005875 ,0.004846,0.009408,0.010023,-0.007307,0.010641,-0.013379,-0.011147,0.014522,0.002652,-0.012256,0.000127,0.000377,-0.001376,0.004118,0.008903,0.002588,0.00964,-0.000359
Belgian:8543229098_R02C02_French_North,0.129758,0. 136081,0.050911,0.022933,0.040931,0.009761,-0.00047,0.002077,0.008795,0.014032,-0.007632,0.001199,-0.010852,-0.01445,0.016015,0.014717,0.0103,0.000887,-0.003394,0.006253,0.005366,0.002844,0,0.008194,-0.007185
Belgian:8543229098_R04C01_French_North,0.126344,0. 144205,0.049403,0.024548,0.040007,0.012829,0.00376 ,0.002769,0.008795,0.009294,-0.003897,0.003897,-0.009514,-0.00867,0.015608,-0.005834,-0.011343,-0.003927,-0.004148,-0.004502,0.007487,0.000495,0.001356,0.007109,-0.001197
Belgian:8543229098_R04C02_French_North,0.125205,0. 137096,0.049026,0.027455,0.037853,0.014223,0.00211 5,0.007384,0.007158,0.011299,-0.004222,0.008542,-0.011298,-0.010735,0.0057,0.012198,0.010561,0.00152,0,0.0066 28,0.003119,0.002968,-0.000246,0.002651,-0.004431
Belgian:8543229098_R05C01_French_North,0.129758,0. 135065,0.046763,0.026486,0.035083,0.012829,0.00564 ,0.003,-0.001432,0.00893,-0.000974,0.004796,-0.009217,-0.004679,0.007465,0.006497,0.002608,0.00114,0.0099 3,0.003252,0.001622,0.000371,0.004807,0.000241,0.0 05389
Belgian:8543229098_R05C02_French_North,0.132035,0. 140143,0.056191,0.022287,0.044008,0.01004,0.003995 ,0.005538,0.006749,0.012757,-0.004872,0.004496,-0.013677,-0.018166,0.010858,0.012198,0.014733,0.004561,-0.002388,0.002876,0.00549,0.004081,0.006039,0.0042 17,-0.000958
Belgian:8543229098_R06C01_French_North,0.12862,0.1 42174,0.051288,0.021318,0.036622,0.008367,0.00094, 0.00923,0.011249,0.00893,-0.000974,0.001798,-0.00669,-0.005643,0.00665,-0.00305,-0.019166,0.007095,0.00352,-0.006003,0.003993,-0.003339,-0.003944,0.004699,0.00467
Belgian:8543229098_R06C02_French_Provence,0.129758 ,0.146236,0.04186,0.007752,0.043085,0.002789,0.006 58,-0.000231,0.012271,0.022233,0.000487,0.004496,-0.011893,-0.001239,0.005157,-0.008751,-0.019688,0.000887,0.006788,-0.007128,0.004617,-0.003215,0.002218,0.00735,0.003353
Belgian:8543229215_R01C01_French_North,0.12862,0.1 35065,0.051666,0.027778,0.039392,0.006972,0.00517, 0.006231,0.008999,0.01057,-0.001624,0.003297,-0.009514,-0.015276,0.017644,0.01843,0.004955,0.005321,0.0052 79,0.008254,0.006863,0.00371,-0.000493,0.010001,0.00455
Belgian:8543229215_R01C02_French_North,0.12862,0.1 38112,0.050911,0.036822,0.037545,0.015897,0.006815 ,0.010846,0.007363,0.008565,-0.00065,-0.000599,-0.006541,-0.00578,0.018322,-0.003713,-0.018515,0.005194,0.000628,-0.003502,0.010482,0.005688,0.000246,-0.000361,0.005987
Belgian:8543229215_R02C01_French_North,0.129758,0. 140143,0.05242,0.023256,0.042469,0.00753,-0.00047,0.003,0.010022,0.011116,-0.007307,0.004946,-0.013082,-0.005643,0.017101,0.009944,0.005998,0.00228,0.0038 97,0.004127,0.009483,0.000989,-0.002342,0.005904,-0.000599
Belgian:8543229215_R02C02_French_North,0.136588,0. 142174,0.052043,0.02907,0.040315,0.01506,0.001645, 0.005538,0.004295,0.012392,0.007145,0.007194,-0.012339,-0.013625,0.011536,0.017104,0.013169,0.000633,0.002 765,0.002751,0.00025,0.000495,-0.000986,0.008435,-0.003592
Belgian:8543229215_R03C01_French_North,0.125205,0. 136081,0.045254,0.026809,0.035391,0.007809,0.00517 ,0.002077,0.003477,0.013303,-0.006171,0.010641,-0.00892,-0.01968,0.011808,0.012596,0.01369,-0.002027,-0.000126,0.0005,0.007986,0.002968,0.000863,0.01458 ,0.001078
Belgian:8543229215_R03C02_French_North,0.126344,0. 138112,0.0445,0.022287,0.038776,0.013666,0.003995, 0.006,0.001841,0.001822,0.001299,0.005245,-0.007582,-0.007982,0.012622,0.004773,-0.002999,0.001014,-0.002011,0.003377,0.003993,0.00371,0.00419,0.00337 4,-0.001437
Belgian:8543229215_R04C01_French_North,0.12862,0.1 45221,0.052043,0.024871,0.041546,0.002231,0.011281 ,0.007846,0.014317,0.012939,-0.003573,0.005995,-0.009514,-0.002477,0.009365,0.003713,0.000782,0.002787,0.006 159,0.002501,0.003993,0.00136,-0.001972,0.008917,-0.001437
Belgian:8543229215_R04C02_French_North,0.129758,0. 149283,0.057322,0.030362,0.03416,0.015618,0.0047,0 .00923,0.008385,0.010023,-0.006983,0.007044,-0.018434,-0.00578,0.0095,-0.00305,-0.015646,0.002914,0.008547,0,0.007736,0.007296,0.0 0456,0.010845,-0.009101
Belgian:8543229215_R05C01_French_North,0.132035,0. 14319,0.053928,0.027455,0.040315,0.009203,0.0047,0 .005538,0.003681,0.008201,-0.007632,0.003147,-0.005054,-0.007294,0.010993,0.005834,0.001434,-0.00076,-0.00176,0.001126,0.007986,-0.006306,0.000863,0.005784,-0.001078
Belgian:8543229215_R05C02_French_North,0.124067,0. 141159,0.05506,0.026809,0.044624,0.013945,0.0047,0 ,0.009204,0.008565,-0.002923,0.006594,-0.011596,-0.004954,0.011672,-0.007027,-0.026989,0.003421,0.00817,-0.006378,0.005989,0.005812,-0.001109,0.006386,-0.000718
Belgian:8543229215_R06C01_French_North,0.130897,0. 141159,0.061471,0.032623,0.041854,0.010319,0.00211 5,0.006461,0.003068,0.006743,-0.005034,0.004196,-0.010258,-0.005643,0.013165,0.002519,-0.004563,-0.001774,0.001131,0.005253,-0.000998,0.000989,0.003821,0.010001,-0.003832
Belgian:8543229215_R06C02_French_North,0.129758,0. 139128,0.054682,0.031977,0.044624,0.011992,-0.00141,0.004846,0.016771,0.02278,-0.007957,0.006444,-0.010406,-0.009634,0.017915,0.010342,-0.007041,-0.00114,-0.001634,0.003377,0.008485,-0.003339,0.000246,0.010724,-0.003113
Belgian:8546260098_R01C02_French_North,0.127482,0. 135065,0.048271,0.031331,0.036007,0.010877,0.00023 5,0.006,0.004909,0.005467,-0.001299,0.007943,-0.00996,0.000688,0.016151,0.005967,0.001304,0.0068 41,0.000377,0.000125,0.000624,-0.002968,0.000246,0.006145,-0.000718
Belgian:8546260098_R02C01_French_North,0.124067,0. 139128,0.059585,0.029393,0.037853,0.011992,0.00517 ,0.006692,0.012067,0.007107,-0.009581,0.006744,-0.016353,-0.008945,0.013979,-0.003713,-0.011865,0.00076,-0.001885,0.003001,0.009483,0.006059,0.000493,0.008 555,-0.000359
Belgian:8546260098_R02C02_French_North,0.127482,0. 14319,0.0445,0.024548,0.040007,0.002789,0.003525,0 .006692,0.014726,0.013485,-0.007307,0.002698,-0.007582,-0.004954,0.016422,-0.005171,-0.019297,0.001774,0.001257,-0.001126,0.007237,-0.000742,-0.008258,0.000241,0
Belgian:8546260098_R03C02_French_North,0.127482,0. 141159,0.049026,0.026486,0.038161,0.010598,0.00658 ,0.008769,0.007772,0.007107,-0.007632,0.002997,-0.009514,-0.004129,0.009636,-0.007955,-0.02047,0.002787,-0.001006,0.002126,0.005989,0.005317,-0.000863,0.005904,0.001796
Belgian:8546260098_R04C02_French_North,0.125205,0. 141159,0.054682,0.033269,0.044008,0.006972,0.00517 ,0.013384,0.009613,0.010387,-0.012342,0.007793,-0.012487,-0.008945,0.016015,0.002519,-0.019036,0.001394,0.004274,-0.004752,0.001248,-0.000124,-0.009737,0.006266,0.001197
Belgian:8546260098_R05C01_French_North,0.129758,0. 142174,0.046386,0.031977,0.035391,0.013666,0.00564 ,0.008307,0.006136,0.007472,-0.000812,0.008243,-0.008622,-0.010597,0.014386,0.005436,0,-0.001647,-0.002388,0.005002,0.005615,0.000866,0.002342,0.009 519,-0.003952
Belgian:8546260098_R05C02_French_North,0.127482,0. 142174,0.051288,0.032946,0.040315,0.012829,0.00211 5,0.007846,0.007363,0.009841,-0.004222,0.008243,-0.006244,-0.000826,0.011672,-0.00358,-0.019036,-0.0019,0.000126,-0.007629,-0.003369,0.008656,0.001602,0.008676,0.002155
Belgian:8546260098_R06C01_French_North,0.127482,0. 140143,0.05506,0.033915,0.038161,0.016455,-0.001645,0.002769,0.001841,0.007107,-0.00747,0.009891,-0.01442,-0.011285,0.016286,-0.00305,-0.003781,-0.002027,-0.003897,0.008504,0.004118,0.002597,-0.000863,0.007832,0.000239
Belgian:8546260098_R06C02_French_North,0.132035,0. 141159,0.054682,0.039083,0.036314,0.009203,0.0094, 0.007384,0.003272,0.005649,-0.004384,0.005695,-0.009068,-0.010735,0.015201,-0.000928,-0.017863,0.000507,0.001383,-0.001251,0.002745,-0.001855,0.003081,0.004579,0.005508

Average coordinates for the 242 Belgians from Liege of the "French_North" cluster :


Belgian_Liege_scaled,0.128460190082645,0.140667665 289256,0.0520940495867768,0.0276658842975207,0.039 4033181818182,0.0104584049586777,0.003096760330578 51,0.00499379338842976,0.00765189669421488,0.01048 31074380165,-0.00427240082644628,0.00559464462809917,-0.0114818636363636,-0.00795426033057851,0.0129175495867768,0.002748719 00826446,-0.00503488429752066,0.00136476033057851,0.00226673 140495868,0.000851111570247933,0.00337161570247934 ,0.00268104545454546,-0.000450735537190083,0.00860754545454545,-0.000261752066115702

Unsurprisingly, extremely close to the northern French and Belgians of Davidski


Distance to: Belgian_Liege_average
0.00566295 French_Nord
0.00592535 Belgian
0.00928047 French_Alsace
0.01291137 French_Paris
0.01292111 Swiss_German
0.01541755 French_Pas-de-Calais
0.01736692 French_Brittany
0.01981998 French_Seine-Maritime
0.01983842 German
0.02233627 Afrikaner
0.02236238 French_Occitanie
0.02253354 Welsh
0.02372871 English_Cornwall
0.02469604 English
0.02542801 French_Auvergne
0.02648846 Austrian
0.02829807 Dutch
0.02847306 Swiss_French
0.02896802 Scottish
0.03006651 Orcadian
0.03261133 Irish
0.03289964 French_Provence
0.03411419 Shetlandic
0.03443052 Italian_Aosta_Valley
0.03514416 Danish

https://i.imgur.com/QyRUkz4.png

And for the fun, no significant differences between young and old people into the "French_north" cluster :

https://i.imgur.com/ygR5DJP.png

How different the Low Lands can be.....
https://i.postimg.cc/VkZ4Ffjm/Schermafbeelding-2022-01-25-om-15-18-52.png (https://postimg.cc/v49WYdqN)

Ajeje Brazorf
01-25-2022, 02:32 PM
Potential outliers

#1

Belgian:8324843130_R05C02,0.125205,0.139128,0.0426 15,0.00969,0.033545,0.001394,0.006815,0.011999,0.0 08795,0.013303,-0.004547,0.009142,-0.010704,-0.001927,0.008415,-0.009812,-0.014994,0.00152,0.003268,-0.002251,-0.001622,0.006183,-0.002588,-0.000482,-0.003113
Belgian:8327817141_R02C02,0.126344,0.141159,0.0505 34,0.036499,0.035391,0.014781,-0.00094,0.004846,0.003681,0.002005,-0.003735,0.005395,-0.013231,-0.003853,0.010179,-0.003315,-0.010561,0.002914,0.001508,-0.008879,-0.000749,0.003339,0.000246,0.010724,-0.00479
Belgian:5434289041_R06C01,0.127482,0.141159,0.0558 14,0.023902,0.044316,0.019522,0.00517,0.006461,0.0 10022,0.012028,-0.009581,3e-04,-0.003717,-0.003303,0.012351,-0.008221,-0.019427,0.004941,0.002891,-0.003627,0.001622,0.003833,-0.003328,0.013255,-0.000599
Belgian:8324843130_R03C02,0.124067,0.138112,0.0482 71,0.026809,0.035391,0.01004,0.002115,0.004384,0.0 06749,0.01549,0.001949,0.008542,-0.018731,-0.018304,0.015065,0.016839,0.008866,-0.00266,0.002765,0.003627,-0.002246,0.002473,-0.003328,0.005422,-0.006826
Belgian:5443804058_R02C02,0.130897,0.14319,0.06109 4,0.03553,0.041238,0.010877,0.003525,0.006,0.00306 8,0.003462,-0.009256,0.006145,-0.007284,-0.001927,0.017508,-0.005967,-0.019427,0.003421,0.00352,-0.000125,0.003369,-0.000124,0.004683,0.008555,-0.003113
Belgian:8543229098_R01C02,0.127482,0.145221,0.0362 04,0.010982,0.038776,0.004462,0.00611,-0.000462,0,0.014397,-0.004547,0.006145,-0.01115,-0.000413,0.00095,0.013922,0.016689,0.000253,0.0011 31,0.005753,0.001373,0.003957,-0.002465,0.002651,-0.005269
Belgian:8324843130_R03C01,0.122929,0.144205,0.0395 98,0.005814,0.037853,0.01004,0.002585,0.006692,0.0 10431,0.015308,-0.001624,0.005095,-0.012339,-0.010597,0.006922,0.016839,0.016559,-0.003927,0.002765,0.000625,-0.00025,0.000742,-0.001725,0.008073,-0.000599

#2

Belgian:8324843038_R06C01,0.125205,0.140143,0.0531 74,0.021964,0.038776,0.010598,0.003995,0.002077,0. 01493,0.017312,-0.00682,0.012139,-0.017691,-0.011147,0.013572,0.005304,0.007302,0.00114,0.0027 65,0.004127,0.010107,0.006059,-0.007765,0.003615,-0.002275
Belgian:5434289051_R03C02,0.12862,0.146236,0.04035 2,0.008075,0.033237,0.001394,0.004465,0.002538,0.0 07567,0.017312,0.000325,0.007493,-0.013379,-0.005505,0.005022,-0.011933,-0.011213,0.005448,0.003268,-0.007379,0.001373,0.001978,-0.004437,0.00482,0.001197
Belgian:8324843038_R05C01,0.121791,0.149283,0.0407 29,0.009367,0.038161,0.006972,0.000705,0.007384,0. 008385,0.020228,-0.004872,0.006744,-0.01442,-0.004129,0.000543,0.00305,0.002347,-0.0019,-0.003017,-0.001126,0.006364,-0.001113,-0.001849,0.005181,0.001078
Belgian:8543229098_R06C02,0.129758,0.146236,0.0418 6,0.007752,0.043085,0.002789,0.00658,-0.000231,0.012271,0.022233,0.000487,0.004496,-0.011893,-0.001239,0.005157,-0.008751,-0.019688,0.000887,0.006788,-0.007128,0.004617,-0.003215,0.002218,0.00735,0.003353
Belgian:5443804115_R03C02,0.12862,0.142174,0.05204 3,0.026163,0.046162,0.013387,0.001175,0.006231,0.0 0634,0.007107,-0.000162,0.005845,-0.004311,0.00234,0.009365,-0.008884,-0.016559,-0.00038,0.002891,0.005628,-0.001872,-0.001607,0.006409,0.01687,-0.005748
Belgian:8327817131_R01C01,0.127482,0.147252,0.0403 52,0.01615,0.030467,0.008646,0.00752,0.008769,0.00 8999,0.012028,-0.004547,0.007044,-0.008771,0.003441,0.003393,-0.013789,-0.011995,-0.001014,0.003394,0.000125,0.004367,-0.005564,0.002835,0.010122,0
Belgian:Belgium10,0.129758,0.142174,0.058454,0.036 499,0.039392,0.01506,0.006815,0,0.001023,0.011481,-0.001137,-0.001199,-0.00996,-0.006881,0.009772,-0.007027,-0.020079,0.012289,0.007668,-0.014632,-0.010482,-0.00272,-0.001109,0.013616,0.000599
Belgian:8324843039_R02C02,0.124067,0.141159,0.0324 32,-0.000646,0.037238,0.000837,0.00188,-0.000692,0.003681,0.020593,0.002923,0.010641,-0.015312,-0.003165,0.004479,0.008751,0.006128,0.004814,-0.000251,-0.008254,0.000125,-0.000618,0.001356,0.008194,0.001317
Belgian:5434289093_R01C02,0.130897,0.137096,0.0531 74,0.032946,0.036007,0.014223,0.01034,0.004154,0.0 02863,-0.002369,-0.008607,0.001349,-0.002973,0.009221,0.004207,-0.001061,-0.007171,0.006714,0.003268,-5e-04,-0.000125,0.003462,0.004807,0.004097,-0.001437
Belgian:8327817122_R05C02,0.126344,0.149283,0.0377 12,-0.002261,0.031698,0.004462,0.00047,0.006231,0.0063 4,0.015855,0.000162,0.004196,-0.007136,0,0.012486,-0.007955,-0.015907,0.000507,0.003771,-0.001501,-0.000125,0.008161,0.001356,0.006627,0.00479
Belgian:8327817131_R06C01,0.125205,0.147252,0.0328 09,-0.000323,0.033852,-0.002789,0.001175,0.000231,0.00409,0.018588,0.0056 84,0.010191,-0.00996,0.001514,-0.002307,-0.01074,-0.013038,0.004181,0.003645,-0.004252,-0.00549,0.00272,-0.00419,0.000482,0.001078
Belgian:5434289001_R04C02,0.117238,0.141159,0.0245 13,0.000323,0.028621,0.005857,0.001175,-0.000923,0.006954,0.01877,-0.003248,0.002248,-0.013825,0.000688,0.000679,-0.001724,0.002608,-0.00038,0.001885,-0.000875,0.004118,0.000247,-0.002588,0.006989,0.006347
Belgian:5443804116_R03C02,0.122929,0.145221,0.0354 49,-0.003553,0.030159,0.000558,0.00188,-0.000462,0.010022,0.024055,0.000974,0.006594,-0.009068,-0.003165,-0.01045,-0.012596,-0.009518,-0.002027,0.002011,-0.014507,-0.001248,0.004081,-0.003451,0.000843,0.001078
Belgian:8327817122_R03C01,0.119514,0.136081,0.0256 44,-0.003876,0.029236,-0.007251,-0.000705,-0.000923,0.006545,0.012392,-0.000974,0.003897,-0.002527,-0.005092,0.002443,-0.000265,-0.00339,0.00152,0.003394,0.000875,0.006239,-0.000742,-0.000246,0.007471,0.000479
Belgian:8324843038_R03C02,0.120652,0.152329,0.0328 09,-0.005168,0.038776,-0.004462,0.00658,0.003692,0.012271,0.019681,-0.004709,0.003897,-0.0055,-0.004679,-0.009093,0.002121,-0.000782,0.005194,0.007542,-0.001876,0.000873,-0.001113,-0.001972,-0.001446,0.00491
Belgian:5434289074_R04C02,0.121791,0.145221,0.0339 41,-0.010982,0.038776,-0.004462,0.00564,0.002538,0.011453,0.017312,-0.001949,0.005995,-0.009663,-0.005505,-0.001086,-0.005436,-0.001695,0.001394,0.006662,-0.003502,0.001996,0.007666,-0.002218,0.007591,-0.001437
Belgian:8324843130_R06C02,0.129758,0.148267,0.0294 15,-0.008398,0.032621,0,-0.001645,-0.001154,0.00634,0.016219,-0.00341,0.003447,-0.005798,0.000963,-0.004886,-0.004773,-0.01004,0.003294,0.004148,-0.003502,-0.003244,-0.00136,0.003204,0.001928,-0.002994
Belgian:5434289058_R01C02,0.129758,0.149283,0.0252 67,-0.011951,0.033545,-0.001116,0.002585,-0.002769,0.008385,0.026606,-0.003897,0.003897,-0.008771,-0.006606,-0.005429,0.002121,0.000261,0.005828,0.005656,0.000 25,0.000125,0.003215,-0.007272,0.00482,0.005029

anglesqueville
01-25-2022, 02:53 PM
https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?22964-cartes-quot-Multidimensional-Scaling-quot-pour-g%E9nomes-diplo%EFdes&p=828906&viewfull=1#post828906

Finn
01-25-2022, 03:04 PM
https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?22964-cartes-quot-Multidimensional-Scaling-quot-pour-g%E9nomes-diplo%EFdes&p=828906&viewfull=1#post828906

Interesting if the Danish samples could also be published.

I guess the watershed runs right to the Dutch......some with a "Danish pull" others with a "Belgian pull".

xerxez
01-25-2022, 03:41 PM
G25 coordinates:

https://pastebin.com/B34yxjri

Celtic vs. Germanic

https://pastebin.com/S4Usuj0g

Target
Distance | ADC: 0.25x RC
TUR_Barcin_N
Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
WHG

Belgian
0.03730309
44.4
43.8
11.8

BelgianA:Average_scaled
0.03970283
43.2
44.2
12.6

BelgianB:Average_scaled
0.03616477
45.0
42.8
12.2

BelgianC:Average_scaled
0.03477729
46.6
41.4
12.0

Dutch
0.04460669
37.0
49.2
13.8

French_Alsace
0.03427035
46.4
42.2
11.4

French_Auvergne
0.03115245
51.6
35.8
12.6

French_Brittany
0.04331725
40.6
45.6
13.8

French_Corsica
0.02097469
64.8
29.6
5.6

French_Nord
0.03479817
45.8
42.2
12.0

French_Occitanie
0.03413899
50.4
36.2
13.4

French_Paris
0.03968746
47.0
40.6
12.4

French_Pas-de-Calais
0.03606465
44.4
41.4
14.2

Average
0.03591990
46.7
41.2
12.1



Averages



BelgianC:Average_scaled,0.1277725,0.1419149,0.0508 791,0.0229605,0.0391954,0.0086871,0.002265,0.00421 75,0.0093385,0.0135048,-0.0037038,0.0061892,-0.0118992,-0.0088576,0.0111001,0.0034896,-0.0031958,0.0009057,0.0018454,0.0007901,0.0028221, 0.0023757,-0.0013794,0.0076836,-0.0007312
BelgianB:Average_scaled,0.1281248,0.1405568,0.0514 525,0.0273443,0.0394289,0.0101769,0.0031464,0.0046 793,0.0076526,0.0108717,-0.0044732,0.0055881,-0.0116561,-0.0087684,0.0129425,0.0035382,-0.0037968,0.0012329,0.0021881,0.0005662,0.0034684, 0.0027662,-0.0006745,0.0087148,-0.0004956
BelgianA:Average_scaled,0.1294609,0.1400047,0.0541 468,0.03132,0.0396436,0.0120842,0.0033888,0.005782 2,0.0067911,0.0082462,-0.0044103,0.0052266,-0.0111901,-0.006681,0.0140933,0.0016814,-0.0075534,0.0017765,0.0024725,0.0012648,0.0035831, 0.0027583,0.0002101,0.0090592,0.0002259


Interesting. The differences in EEF/Yamnaya/WHG composition are slight and on G25 Europe 1 PCA there is a lot of overlap between the 3 groups.

https://i.imgur.com/x27P7z3.png

Pylsteen
01-25-2022, 03:46 PM
So we do have "South Dutch" samples apart from the "general Dutch" in G25 (which is seemingly rather Northern shifted)?

xerxez
01-25-2022, 03:55 PM
How different the Low Lands can be.....
https://i.postimg.cc/VkZ4Ffjm/Schermafbeelding-2022-01-25-om-15-18-52.png (https://postimg.cc/v49WYdqN)

You didn't put all the Belgians individuals, here are your closest belgians from Liege with the complete list. 2 of your top 3 are of the 3 "outliers" NW_Europeans

Distance to: Finn
0.03416516 Belgian:8324843130_R02C01_French_North
0.03510121 Belgian:5434289099_R05C02_NW_European
0.03545346 Belgian:8327817147_R01C01_NW_European
0.03658856 Belgian:5434289058_R05C02_French_North
0.03753658 Belgian:5434289001_R01C01_French_North
0.03783999 Belgian:8327817131_R04C01_French_North
0.03784548 Belgian:8327817131_R02C02_French_North
0.03808943 Belgian:8543229215_R06C01_French_North
0.03829298 Belgian:8327817141_R01C01_French_North
0.03835719 Belgian:5434289041_R05C01_French_North
0.03894847 Belgian:5434289081_R05C02_French_North
0.03920405 Belgian:8324843038_R01C02_French_North
0.03923176 Belgian:5434289104_R05C02_French_North
0.03925026 Belgian:8543229075_R04C01_French_North
0.03974884 Belgian:5434289003_R02C01_French_North
0.04001474 Belgian:5434289058_R04C02_French_North
0.04012106 Belgian:8327817141_R04C01_French_North
0.04014080 Belgian:8324843038_R03C01_French_North
0.04024185 Belgian:5434289003_R06C02_French_North
0.04035627 Belgian:5443804068_R04C02_French_North
0.04047924 Belgian:8327817147_R06C02_French_North
0.04057407 Belgian:5443804058_R02C02_French_North
0.04060230 Belgian:5434289099_R03C01_French_North
0.04060450 Belgian:8546260098_R06C01_French_North
0.04061050 Belgian:5434289099_R02C02_French_North

With Altvred groups, you get mostly individuals from A (17) and B class (8)
Distance to: Finn
0.03416516 BelgianA:8324843130_R02C01
0.03510121 BelgianA:5434289099_R05C02
0.03545346 BelgianA:8327817147_R01C01
0.03658856 BelgianA:5434289058_R05C02
0.03753658 BelgianA:5434289001_R01C01
0.03783999 BelgianB:8327817131_R04C01
0.03784548 BelgianA:8327817131_R02C02
0.03808943 BelgianA:8543229215_R06C01
0.03829298 BelgianB:8327817141_R01C01
0.03835719 BelgianA:5434289041_R05C01
0.03894847 BelgianA:5434289081_R05C02
0.03920405 BelgianB:8324843038_R01C02
0.03923176 BelgianB:5434289104_R05C02
0.03925026 BelgianB:8543229075_R04C01
0.03974884 BelgianA:5434289003_R02C01
0.04001474 BelgianA:5434289058_R04C02
0.04012106 BelgianA:8327817141_R04C01
0.04014080 BelgianA:8324843038_R03C01
0.04024185 BelgianB:5434289003_R06C02
0.04035627 BelgianB:5443804068_R04C02
0.04047924 BelgianA:8327817147_R06C02
0.04057407 BelgianA:5443804058_R02C02
0.04060230 BelgianA:5434289099_R03C01
0.04060450 BelgianB:8546260098_R06C01
0.04061050 BelgianA:5434289099_R02C02

xerxez
01-25-2022, 04:01 PM
Inspired by xerxez

Belgian samples by closest population

https://pastebin.com/raw/80dPFgKf

Belgian averages by closest population


BELGIAN__Austrian,0.130897,0.137096,0.053174,0.032 946,0.036007,0.014223,0.01034,0.004154,0.002863,-0.002369,-0.008607,0.001349,-0.002973,0.009221,0.004207,-0.001061,-0.007171,0.006714,0.003268,-5e-04,-0.000125,0.003462,0.004807,0.004097,-0.001437
BELGIAN__English_Cornwall,0.1293032,0.1399402,0.05 80766,0.0346902,0.0393302,0.014112,0.003666,0.0062 308,0.0092446,0.0053212,-0.0076972,0.0063244,-0.011774,-0.00278,0.0200052,-0.0061258,-0.020079,0.0019258,0.0032682,0.0005504,0.0052158,0 .0028192,0.0036726,0.0093022,-0.0006704
BELGIAN__French_Alsace,0.1276317,0.1409448,0.05082 21,0.0247605,0.0389141,0.0107814,0.0035436,0.00572 65,0.0060227,0.0089488,-0.0040041,0.0055017,-0.0098977,-0.0036288,0.0103862,-0.0029204,-0.0110758,0.0024104,0.0028051,-0.0011387,0.0033788,0.0018158,-6.81e-05,0.0071505,0.0005232
BELGIAN__French_Brittany,0.1286202,0.1387692,0.055 1484,0.034542,0.0392832,0.0125829,0.0026818,0.0054 161,0.0071343,0.0078362,-0.0058746,0.0060301,-0.012881,-0.0086622,0.0152326,-0.0009127,-0.0096101,-4.48e-05,0.0010056,0.0010152,0.0041324,0.0039641,0.00025 36,0.0095831,0.0014792
BELGIAN__French_Nord,0.1284875,0.1412277,0.0526687 ,0.0278846,0.0390751,0.0097801,0.0029021,0.0051731 ,0.008165,0.0109306,-0.0040692,0.0057532,-0.0118293,-0.0076387,0.0136261,0.0010529,-0.008418,0.0016813,0.0029387,0.0004529,0.0029014,0 .0028308,-0.000852,0.0082838,-5.47e-05
BELGIAN__French_Occitanie,0.12862,0.14319,0.048271 ,0.016473,0.040315,0.003904,0.00282,0.005769,0.014 93,0.014397,-0.004222,0.008393,-0.010109,-0.003441,0.011943,-0.000398,-0.015516,0.004181,0.005782,-0.005878,0.006239,-0.000989,-0.006779,0.001566,0.000359
BELGIAN__French_Paris,0.128349,0.1404333,0.0508394 ,0.0248095,0.0404471,0.0093229,0.001701,0.0033295, 0.0092329,0.0137719,-0.0044231,0.0059019,-0.0127423,-0.0131268,0.0133846,0.0103421,0.0047311,0.0008928, 0.0018615,0.0015483,0.0027213,0.0037803,-0.0009743,0.0135302,-0.0015909
BELGIAN__French_Pas-de-Calais,0.1294453,0.1401177,0.0516089,0.0275115,0.0 402921,0.0109604,0.0040009,0.0045172,0.0070868,0.0 107246,-0.0042058,0.0044736,-0.0106886,-0.0122003,0.0118959,0.0132324,0.0095832,0.0007633, 0.0010873,0.0042176,0.0050754,0.001963,-0.0004314,0.0083775,-0.0017693
BELGIAN__French_Provence,0.1252054,0.1462364,0.039 7484,0.0047804,0.0347758,0.0041832,0.002491,0.0033 692,0.0070762,0.018005,-0.0009744,0.0071336,-0.0119226,-0.0037984,0.0049404,-0.0015378,-0.0032856,0.00261,0.002514,-0.0053028,0.002396,0.001929,-0.0015036,0.0062898,0.0015328
BELGIAN__French_Seine-Maritime,0.128051,0.1416665,0.0497795,0.0321385,0. 041854,0.0136655,0.003055,0.0045,0.0107375,0.01248 35,-0.0068205,0.00607,-0.007805,0.002477,0.015608,-0.0036465,-0.019753,-0.0015835,0.0011315,-0.0038145,-0.0003745,0.0037715,0.0018485,0.0093385,0.002814
BELGIAN__German,0.1306121,0.138112,0.0563796,0.035 7319,0.0378146,0.0139795,0.0029081,0.0051342,0.006 1101,0.0057632,-0.0045874,0.0052826,-0.0097745,-0.0035095,0.0123675,0.0014584,-0.0040745,0.0008392,0.0012568,0.0023604,0.0012634, 0.0033695,0.0009706,0.0071695,0.0012424
BELGIAN__Italian_Aosta_Valley,0.122929,0.144205,0. 039598,0.005814,0.037853,0.01004,0.002585,0.006692 ,0.010431,0.015308,-0.001624,0.005095,-0.012339,-0.010597,0.006922,0.016839,0.016559,-0.003927,0.002765,0.000625,-0.00025,0.000742,-0.001725,0.008073,-0.000599
BELGIAN__Italian_Bergamo,0.1263435,0.147252,0.0303 58,-0.007752,0.031852,-0.000279,0.0022325,-0.0016155,0.0092035,0.0253305,-0.0014615,0.0052455,-0.0089195,-0.0048855,-0.0079395,-0.0052375,-0.0046285,0.0019005,0.0038335,-0.0071285,-0.0005615,0.003648,-0.0053615,0.0028315,0.0030535
BELGIAN__Italian_Northeast,0.12236,0.14319,0.03035 85,0.0056525,0.0336985,0.0051595,0.0036425,-0.0006925,0.003477,0.0165835,-0.0038975,0.0041965,-0.0124875,0.0001375,0.0008145,0.006099,0.0096485,-6.35e-05,0.001508,0.002439,0.0027455,0.002102,-0.0025265,0.00482,0.000539
BELGIAN__Italian_Piedmont,0.119514,0.136081,0.0256 44,-0.003876,0.029236,-0.007251,-0.000705,-0.000923,0.006545,0.012392,-0.000974,0.003897,-0.002527,-0.005092,0.002443,-0.000265,-0.00339,0.00152,0.003394,0.000875,0.006239,-0.000742,-0.000246,0.007471,0.000479
BELGIAN__Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige,0.123498,0.1462365,0.033375,-0.0056525,0.036314,-0.0036255,0.0034075,0.0013845,0.0077715,0.01795,0. 0018675,0.008093,-0.0098115,-0.0019955,-0.0016965,-0.008088,-0.0073665,0.0027875,0.0051535,-0.003877,-0.001747,0.005193,-0.003204,0.0040365,-0.0001795
BELGIAN__Italian_Veneto,0.125205,0.150298,0.031112 ,-0.006783,0.0356985,-0.002231,0.0024675,0.001269,0.0093055,0.01795,-0.0040595,0.003672,-0.005649,-0.001858,-0.0069895,-0.001326,-0.005411,0.004244,0.005845,-0.002689,-0.0011855,-0.0012365,0.000616,0.000241,0.000958
BELGIAN__Orcadian,0.127482,0.135065,0.056568,0.045 866,0.039392,0.014781,-0.00329,0.006231,0.008999,0.007107,-0.007795,0.004346,-0.008176,-0.012799,0.015336,0.00411,-0.011083,0.003674,0,-0.006503,0.001622,-0.002226,-0.004067,0.015665,-0.006706
BELGIAN__Spanish_Barcelones,0.129758,0.146236,0.04 186,0.007752,0.043085,0.002789,0.00658,-0.000231,0.012271,0.022233,0.000487,0.004496,-0.011893,-0.001239,0.005157,-0.008751,-0.019688,0.000887,0.006788,-0.007128,0.004617,-0.003215,0.002218,0.00735,0.003353
BELGIAN__Swiss_French,0.126344,0.142174,0.0426145, 0.0163115,0.038007,0.003765,-0.00141,0.002423,0.0087945,0.0105695,0.000406,0.00 57695,-0.01167,-0.011285,0.009704,0.0050385,0.009583,-0.0017105,0.0002515,0.0010005,0.0026205,0.0001855,-0.000986,0.007832,-0.000419
BELGIAN__Swiss_German,0.1258377,0.140933,0.0468468 ,0.0223229,0.0398364,0.0094511,0.0041778,0.005487, 0.0078856,0.0140321,-0.0027606,0.00746,-0.0149158,-0.0053827,0.0105411,-0.0050679,-0.0108218,0.0001689,0.001243,-0.0022233,0.0028283,0.0033524,-0.0019994,0.0066408,-0.0009979

Here is the distribution by closest distance :
BELGIAN__French_Nord 103
BELGIAN__French_Pas-de-Calais 40
BELGIAN__French_Alsace 38
BELGIAN__French_Paris 21
BELGIAN__French_Brittany 17
BELGIAN__Swiss_German 9
BELGIAN__German 8
BELGIAN__French_Provence 5
BELGIAN__English_Cornwall 5
BELGIAN__Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige 2
BELGIAN__French_Seine-Maritime 2
BELGIAN__Italian_Veneto 2
BELGIAN__Swiss_French 2
BELGIAN__Italian_Bergamo 2
BELGIAN__Italian_Northeast 2
BELGIAN__French_Occitanie 1
BELGIAN__Spanish_Barcelones 1
BELGIAN__Italian_Piedmont 1
BELGIAN__Orcadian 1
BELGIAN__Italian_Aosta_Valley 1
BELGIAN__Austrian 1

Kellebel
01-25-2022, 04:51 PM
So we do have "South Dutch" samples apart from the "general Dutch" in G25 (which is seemingly rather Northern shifted)?

Only in CvsG, unfortunately not G25.

xerxez
01-25-2022, 05:29 PM
I tried to look if some of our Belgians have Dutch in their closest individuals but only 1 of them have 1 Dutch in his top 25.

On the other hand, among the Dutch, while the majority (40 on 64) have an overrepresentation of Dutch among their 20 closest (red dots on Europe 1 PCA below), 20 have an overrepresentation of Belgian (green dots). Maybe these Dutch could be considered as proxy of South Dutch

https://i.imgur.com/qw0e97w.png

Here are these 20 Dutch with an overrepresentation of Belgians among their closest individuals :

Dutch:Netherlands10,0.124067,0.136081,0.067127,0.0 37791,0.040315,0.02008,0.012221,0.003923,0.00225,-0.00164,0.001461,0.006594,0.003865,-0.01156,0.020629,0.006497,-0.015646,-0.003927,0.006788,-0.003502,0.011355,0.012613,0.004314,0.002892,0.000 838
Dutch:Netherlands16,0.127482,0.13405,0.050534,0.05 2003,0.032621,0.011992,0.0047,0.009923,0.001432,0. 009659,-0.002111,-0.000599,-0.009663,-0.006606,0.015201,0.012729,0.00352,0.011275,0.0011 31,0.012756,0.015847,0.008285,-0.00419,0.024823,-0.002036
Dutch:Netherlands18,0.143417,0.131003,0.053174,0.0 29716,0.035699,0.007809,0.00893,0.012461,-0.001636,0.006925,-0.009906,0.003447,-0.009217,-0.002615,0.019951,-0.000398,-0.011213,0.006208,0.001257,-0.002751,0.007861,0.005564,0.011216,0.020123,-0.001557
Dutch:Netherlands22,0.141141,0.132019,0.050157,0.0 3876,0.029544,0.021475,0.011751,0.004846,-0.001227,0.008383,-0.005196,0.004646,-0.018434,-0.000138,0.029587,0.0118,-0.000913,-0.000633,-0.002765,0.015007,-0.006364,0.004822,-0.001356,0.019039,-0.005389
Dutch:Netherlands25,0.126344,0.136081,0.05506,0.03 5853,0.041854,0.001394,0.00987,0.014769,0.009204,0 .009294,-0.001786,-0.002098,0.003271,-0.011973,0.018458,0.002387,-0.01017,0.001774,0.005656,0.006503,0.005865,0.0108 81,-0.006286,0.004097,-0.011855
Dutch:Netherlands26,0.120652,0.132019,0.050911,0.0 30685,0.047701,0.01506,0.007755,0.015461,0.004704, 0.008201,0.002598,0.005695,-0.008474,-0.010184,0.023344,0.000133,-0.014994,0.002914,0.013324,-0.003502,0.014724,0.009521,0.00493,0.012652,0.0137 71
Dutch:Netherlands27,0.120652,0.114755,0.062979,0.0 20026,0.037238,-0.002231,0.00658,-0.003461,0.007976,0.008018,0.002761,0.005545,-0.002973,-0.015689,0.013029,-0.000133,-0.00678,-0.006588,0.005154,-0.006753,0.004118,-0.001113,0.003328,0.014219,0.011496
Dutch:Netherlands29,0.12862,0.136081,0.056945,0.03 9406,0.032314,0.014223,0.00987,0.021461,0.01084,0. 00893,-0.000812,0.001049,-0.021556,-0.003303,0.002307,0.012729,0.005867,-0.011529,0.004651,0.015257,0.005989,0.003462,-0.000863,0.012893,-0.00467
Dutch:Netherlands30,0.111547,0.13405,0.054682,0.03 3592,0.044316,0.005299,-0.002585,-0.001385,0.008795,0.002916,0.001299,-0.005245,-0.005798,-0.002064,0.007736,0.014717,-0.004955,0.011149,0.008296,0.002501,0.003494,-0.005935,0.002958,0.007953,-0.008981
Dutch:Netherlands31,0.112685,0.14319,0.052043,0.04 1344,0.037853,0.020917,0.013396,-0.004154,0.006749,0.001276,-0.015914,0.01139,-0.012785,-0.003441,0.011943,-0.001724,-0.001825,0.008742,0.007668,-0.003377,0.000499,0.004822,-0.000246,0.018195,-0.007664
Dutch:Netherlands32,0.126344,0.142174,0.065242,0.0 44251,0.048009,0.009482,0.009165,0.018461,0.011044 ,0.019317,-0.008931,0.020831,-0.011893,-0.005092,0.017236,0.009016,0.001565,0.003547,-0.004651,0.005503,-0.005615,-0.00272,-0.001479,0.01687,-0.00455
Dutch:Netherlands34,0.124067,0.121864,0.058454,0.0 28101,0.044931,0.007809,0.00329,0.015461,0.011658,-0.002551,-0.011854,0.014237,-0.002081,-0.012248,0.019951,0.005569,-0.01695,0.001647,0.003268,-0.005253,0.003743,0.005812,0.000246,0.027474,0.002 155
Dutch:Netherlands35,0.118376,0.142174,0.062602,0.0 37791,0.03416,0.017849,0.012221,0.006231,-0.001432,0.010205,-0.014453,-0.008243,-0.013379,0.002202,0.020087,0.006099,-0.011735,0.000253,-0.00264,-0.006503,-0.014225,0.000124,-0.008997,0.009881,0.006347
Dutch:Netherlands36,0.12862,0.139128,0.065619,0.04 4574,0.033237,0.023148,0.00423,0.019615,0.012271,0 .003462,-0.013316,0.016935,-0.015609,-0.009083,0.020087,-0.003978,-0.007562,0.00152,0.005656,0.011756,0.005615,0.0035 86,-0.003821,0.018918,-0.006826
Dutch:Netherlands43,0.126344,0.123895,0.059962,0.0 42636,0.028005,0.004462,0.003055,0.013615,0.00634, 0.011481,0.005034,0.007793,-0.019772,-0.007844,0.019951,0.008618,-0.014212,0.000507,-0.001131,0.002376,0.006239,0.009892,0.005793,0.013 134,0.007065
Dutch:Netherlands50,0.127482,0.129988,0.064111,0.0 2584,0.042162,0.011992,0.001645,0.006,0.001841,-0.011663,-0.00747,-0.002698,-0.005352,-0.007982,0.031351,0.002917,-0.001565,0.00076,0.001634,0.005002,0.019341,-0.003339,-0.0053,0.012291,0.008263
Dutch:Netherlands52,0.136588,0.133034,0.055814,0.0 31331,0.051086,0.017012,0.001645,0.008307,0.003477 ,0.004738,-0.001949,-0.006894,-0.001041,-0.011285,0.013572,0.012066,-0.01004,0.008361,0.008673,0.003877,-0.000749,0.018672,-0.007888,0.020123,0.008263
Dutch:Netherlands55,0.136588,0.120848,0.048649,0.0 40698,0.040931,0.02008,0.0094,-0.001385,-0.002659,0.007836,-0.003573,0.000599,-0.002973,-0.024497,0.013843,0.010342,-0.017211,0.006714,0.004651,0.001376,-0.007487,0.004328,-0.006162,0.010604,0.00455
Dutch:Netherlands62,0.124067,0.131003,0.070522,0.0 41344,0.052317,0.005578,0.00987,0.011769,0.004295,-0.014214,-0.005521,0.016335,-0.010109,-0.003578,0.010586,0.009016,-0.01682,0.006968,-0.002011,0.005378,0.002995,-0.010016,0.002958,-0.003253,0.001317
Dutch:Netherlands64,0.132035,0.138112,0.061094,0.0 42636,0.04924,0.02761,0.019506,0.008077,0.00859,0. 008383,0.001624,0.008393,-0.006987,-0.0139,0.014929,0.010872,-0.011735,-0.007348,0.007039,0.018009,0.002371,0.004575,0.003 081,0.00964,0.006466


And average coordinates.

Dutch_close_Belgian,0.1268559,0.13257745,0.0582840 5,0.0369189,0.04017665,0.013052,0.00782575,0.00899 975,0.0052256,0.0049478,-0.00440075,0.0048856,-0.008548,-0.008044,0.0171889,0.0064637,-0.0081687,0.0021157,0.0035824,0.003683,0.0037808,0 .0041918,-0.0003882,0.0136284,0.00085015

Only 8 Belgians are closer to "South_Dutch" average (green dots below) than to Belgian_Liege_French_North_cluster average

https://i.imgur.com/yTsnEZK.png

CGPF
01-25-2022, 05:55 PM
Interesting if the Danish samples could also be published.

I guess the watershed runs right to the Dutch......some with a "Danish pull" others with a "Belgian pull".

Like this?

48156

xerxez
01-25-2022, 06:11 PM
Like this?

48156

Or like this, when we remove "South Dutch" (violet dots), then the cloud of the Dutch (green dots) covers almost perfectly that of the Danes

https://i.imgur.com/LNENqmE.png

CGPF
01-25-2022, 06:27 PM
Or like this, when we remove "South Dutch" (violet dots), then the cloud of the Dutch (green dots) covers almost perfectly that of the Danes


Possibly, but there is room for more nuance. What is regarded as South-Dutch? People with mainly Brabant ancestry? The latter would make sense as the Dutch part of Brabant was (mainly) settled by people from nowadays Belgian.

However, (some) people with substantial ancestry (>80%) in the western Meuse estuary, fall outside the Danish and Belgian clusters. They are not South-Dutch.

Pylsteen
01-25-2022, 06:40 PM
Another graph from the Byrne et al. paper (1b, 1c) for some context

48157

problem is, South Dutch (Brabant+Limburg) and North Dutch (Friesland etc.) can in many cases be distinguished fairly well, but we also have the large in-between group.

xerxez
01-25-2022, 06:51 PM
For the fun, when we put only 2 sources populations Belgian and Danish :

Target: Dutch_close_Belgian
Distance: 0.9298% / 0.00929753 | R2P
54.0 Belgian
46.0 Danish

Target: Other_Dutch
Distance: 0.9019% / 0.00901853 | R2P
90.0 Danish
10.0 Belgian

Finn
01-25-2022, 07:03 PM
Another graph from the Byrne et al. paper (1b, 1c) for some context

48157

problem is, South Dutch (Brabant+Limburg) and North Dutch (Friesland etc.) can in many cases be distinguished fairly well, but we also have the large in-between group.

Yes the Central Dutch ;)

CGPF
01-25-2022, 07:08 PM
Another graph from the Byrne et al. paper (1b, 1c) for some context

48157

problem is, South Dutch (Brabant+Limburg) and North Dutch (Friesland etc.) can in many cases be distinguished fairly well, but we also have the large in-between group.

The missing piece for the large in-between group? The western part thereof falls within the Irish cluster and the Dutch-Belgian and Dutch-Danish cluster have no overlap with the Irish cluster. How to explain that?

48158

Pylsteen
01-25-2022, 07:30 PM
Yes the Central Dutch ;)

Having South Holland and Gelderland as my most important regions of ancestry, I know :) but would that make sense to group them together?


The missing piece for the large in-between group? The western part thereof falls within the Irish cluster and the Dutch-Belgian and Dutch-Danish cluster have no overlap with the Irish cluster. How to explain that?

48158

I'm sure we should not forget the large German cluster. And South Holland: a mixture of north (coastal) and south? Mixtures can fall in between anyway.

CGPF
01-25-2022, 07:54 PM
And South Holland: a mixture of north (coastal) and south? Mixtures can fall in between anyway.

Yes and than a mixture similar to (part of) the Irish?

Pylsteen
01-25-2022, 08:08 PM
Yes and than a mixture similar to (part of) the Irish?

If we are talking about a similar underlying NW European fundament, enriched with some "Danish-like" and "Belgian-like" ancestry, than it would not appear to me strange that they would look optically similar on a graph.

Finn
01-25-2022, 08:10 PM
Yes and than a mixture similar to (part of) the Irish?

I don't see the trouble.....why should Dutch-Irish and Dutch-Danish cluster must necessary have an overlap?

And it's known that Holland, certainly since the Golden Age is a mixture North and South. And as we have seen parts of Holland were in de middle ages a kind of Frisian expansion zone?

Finn
01-25-2022, 08:28 PM
If we are talking about a similar underlying NW European fundament, enriched with some "Danish-like" and "Belgian-like" ancestry, than it would not appear to me strange that they would look optically similar on a graph.

By the way 'deep Frisian' Elske seems part of the Irish cluster, so in the North this can also be diverse between the Irish and Danish cluster (@CGPF)

https://i.postimg.cc/JhFdZwXG/Vahaduo-Global-25-Northwest-Europe-PCA-7.png (https://postimg.cc/d78Bcx4Y)

Pylsteen
01-25-2022, 08:33 PM
While I (mixed) plot in the middle of the Dutch cluster, my mother (mostly Central/South Dutch) plots outside of it in the Belgian cluster; we both have a closer distance to Belgians_French_Nord over the Dutch, funny. Does that mean we are really closer to Belgians than to Dutch? No, the matches do not point to that although we have some; it rather seems that the Dutch cluster is larger in reality than the samples available in G25 suggest.

CGPF
01-25-2022, 09:58 PM
By the way 'deep Frisian' Elske seems part of the Irish cluster, so in the North this can also be diverse between the Irish and Danish cluster (@CGPF)

A relevant point to consider. It might very well mean that by chance (or as a result of G25) some Dutch end up in Danish, Irish and Belgian clusters.

anglesqueville
01-25-2022, 11:15 PM
I did a little work for you. First I updated the labels (Kent, Cornwall, etc). Then I added Busby's Irish and Welsh (which I am wary of because they have been heavily imputed). And above all, I added a "Forum_NL" mini-cluster, which contains Elske_dad, Monedula, Kellebel, and Finn's parents. I post a big pdf with all of Europe, and a small one with only the NW Europeans (without the French).
48161
48162

alan
01-25-2022, 11:33 PM
given the Irish are overwhelmingly descended from NW beaker (Rhine) people and have only a very little ancestry from the Irish Neolithic farms and only the tiniest input from local irish hunter -gatherers, it doesn’t surprise me that the irish cluster touches the Frisian one. The whole zone that has a big input from Rhenish beakers still kind of clusters today. Though as bel beaker looks like an evolution on the Lower Rhine from single grave, the similarity probably as deep roots

Finn
01-26-2022, 08:08 AM
given the Irish are overwhelmingly descended from NW beaker (Rhine) people and have only a very little ancestry from the Irish Neolithic farms and only the tiniest input from local irish hunter -gatherers, it doesn’t surprise me that the irish cluster touches the Frisian one. The whole zone that has a big input from Rhenish beakers still kind of clusters today. Though as bel beaker looks like an evolution on the Lower Rhine from single grave, the similarity probably as deep roots

That's certainly a factor Alan! That's the Irish c.q. Beaker factor.

Nevertheless the Danish pull is also there....what's that? Funnelbeakers? Single Grave folks? And.....Anglo-Saxons?

The Belgian one is clearly differentiated! Belgae so La Tene? La Tene had influences unto Nijmegen (the area of Pijlsteen's ancestry, at least a part of it).

xerxez
01-26-2022, 08:20 AM
Interestingly, among Benelux, "South_Dutch" are the closest to English and Welsh and have English Iron Age and Roman among their closest while Other Dutch have England_Saxon among their closest but are also close English Iron Age and Roman. Belgians are close to La Tene.

Distance to modern averages :

Distance to: Belgian_Liege_French_North_cluster
0.00566295 French_Nord
0.00592535 Belgian
0.00928047 French_Alsace
0.01291137 French_Paris
0.01292111 Swiss_German
0.01541755 French_Pas-de-Calais
0.01736692 French_Brittany
0.01981998 French_Seine-Maritime
0.01983842 German
0.02233627 Afrikaner
0.02236238 French_Occitanie
0.02253354 Welsh
0.02372871 English_Cornwall
0.02469604 English
0.02542801 French_Auvergne
0.02648846 Austrian
0.02829807 Dutch
0.02847306 Swiss_French
0.02896802 Scottish
0.03006651 Orcadian
0.03261133 Irish
0.03289964 French_Provence
0.03411419 Shetlandic
0.03443052 Italian_Aosta_Valley
0.03514416 Danish

Distance to: Dutch_close_Belgian
0.01383646 Welsh
0.01440108 English
0.01537568 English_Cornwall
0.01571955 French_Brittany
0.01600105 Afrikaner
0.01660245 German
0.01712103 Scottish
0.01867054 Belgian
0.01963443 Orcadian
0.02118634 Danish
0.02175778 Irish
0.02272787 French_Nord
0.02285874 Shetlandic
0.02462148 French_Pas-de-Calais
0.02489001 French_Alsace
0.02553754 Norwegian
0.02670095 French_Paris
0.02721478 French_Seine-Maritime
0.02725916 Icelandic
0.02891445 Austrian
0.02936471 Swiss_German
0.03042474 Swedish
0.03598511 German_East
0.03818559 Hungarian

Distance to: Other_Dutch
0.00968300 Danish
0.01220934 Scottish
0.01358978 Orcadian
0.01483607 Icelandic
0.01487888 Shetlandic
0.01534109 Norwegian
0.01552949 Irish
0.01567459 English
0.01679400 Welsh
0.01795837 English_Cornwall
0.01869675 Swedish
0.02310742 French_Brittany
0.02340936 German
0.02381310 Afrikaner
0.03296080 Belgian
0.03429901 German_East
0.03734004 French_Seine-Maritime
0.03739726 French_Pas-de-Calais
0.03753548 French_Nord
0.03761325 Austrian
0.03905388 Czech
0.04012285 French_Alsace
0.04143168 French_Paris
0.04320348 Hungarian

Distance to average ancient populations :

Distance to: Belgian_Liege_French_North_cluster
0.01037587 ITA_Collegno_MA
0.01233669 HUN_MA_Szolad
0.01536109 CZE_IA_La_Tene
0.01857947 ITA_Rome_Renaissance
0.01908122 Iberia_Northeast_c.6CE_PL
0.01916547 FRA_Champagne_IA2
0.02053553 SVK_LIA_La_Tene
0.02080552 England_LBA_highEEF
0.02096184 CZE_IA_Hallstatt
0.02164783 CZE_LBA_Knoviz
0.02208973 DEU_Lech_BBC
0.02315164 VK2020_SWE_Karda_VA
0.02359035 Bell_Beaker_Bavaria
0.02438638 VK2020_DNK_Jutland_VA
0.02462793 CHE_EBA
0.02474164 DEU_Singen_EBA
0.02506849 CZE_MBA_Tumulus
0.02526924 England_MIA_LIA
0.02528787 Levant_LBN_MA_o2
0.02531038 England_EIA
0.02547120 England_EBA_highEEF
0.02570301 Bell_Beaker_FRA_C
0.02638355 Bell_Beaker_CZE_late
0.02661851 Bell_Beaker_HUN_EBA
0.02684291 England_MIA

Distance to: Dutch_close_Belgian
0.01385946 VK2020_DNK_Jutland_VA
0.01616049 VK2020_DNK_Langeland_VA
0.01709674 VK2020_NOR_Mid_MA
0.01927508 VK2020_DNK_Sealand_VA
0.01953204 England_MIA_LIA
0.02005310 England_MIA
0.02011074 England_LIA
0.02015599 VK2020_SWE_Oland_VA
0.02023198 England_Roman
0.02068035 VK2020_England_Dorset_VA
0.02091829 CZE_IA_La_Tene
0.02109620 DEU_MA_Baiuvaric
0.02128997 England_EIA
0.02159581 England_EastYorkshire_MIA
0.02160714 HUN_MA_Szolad
0.02175215 England_EastYorkshire_MIA_LIA
0.02202963 England_LBA
0.02209062 ITA_Collegno_MA
0.02218923 VK2020_SWE_Skara_VA
0.02247483 VK2020_England_Oxford_VA
0.02255574 VK2020_DNK_Funen_VA
0.02261557 VK2020_SWE_Karda_VA
0.02270123 England_IA
0.02279498 VK2020_Faroes_EM
0.02284299 VK2020_ISL_Hofstadir_VA

Distance to: Other_Dutch
0.01214520 VK2020_Faroes_EM
0.01230035 VK2020_England_Dorset_VA
0.01249033 VK2020_DNK_Sealand_VA
0.01263463 VK2020_SWE_Skara_VA
0.01294208 VK2020_ISL_Hofstadir_VA
0.01301876 VK2020_DNK_Langeland_VA
0.01354024 VK2020_NOR_Mid_MA
0.01467565 VK2020_GreenlandE_VA
0.01495759 DEU_MA_Baiuvaric
0.01501404 VK2020_England_Oxford_VA
0.01554282 VK2020_DNK_Jutland_VA
0.01594779 England_Saxon
0.01606228 VK2020_DNK_Sealand_EVA
0.01630401 England_Roman
0.01666179 VK2020_SWE_Oland_VA
0.01678220 VK2020_ISL_Hringsdalur_VA
0.01721651 VK2020_DNK_Funen_VA
0.01760736 England_LIA
0.01792632 Scotland_EIA
0.01800207 England_IA
0.01825024 VK2020_NOR_North_VA
0.01877162 VK2020_Scotland_Orkney_VA
0.01914045 England_EastYorkshire_MIA
0.01918228 England_MBA
0.01947876 England_LBA

Finn
01-26-2022, 08:23 AM
It's pretty crowdy in the Irish corner .....some members....

https://i.postimg.cc/zGRJzcdF/Schermafbeelding-2022-01-26-om-09-20-57.png (https://postimg.cc/NKBhbpvK)

Finn
01-26-2022, 08:24 AM
I did a little work for you. First I updated the labels (Kent, Cornwall, etc). Then I added Busby's Irish and Welsh (which I am wary of because they have been heavily imputed). And above all, I added a "Forum_NL" mini-cluster, which contains Elske_dad, Monedula, Kellebel, and Finn's parents. I post a big pdf with all of Europe, and a small one with only the NW Europeans (without the French).
48161
48162

Thanks Angles, pretty crowded house in the NW.....

Finn
01-26-2022, 08:32 AM
Interestingly, among Benelux, "South_Dutch" are the closest to English and Welsh and have English Iron Age and Roman among their closest while Other Dutch have England_Saxon among their closest but are also close English Iron Age and Roman. Belgians are close to La Tene.

Distance to modern averages :

Distance to: Belgian_Liege_French_North_cluster
0.00566295 French_Nord
0.00592535 Belgian
0.00928047 French_Alsace
0.01291137 French_Paris
0.01292111 Swiss_German
0.01541755 French_Pas-de-Calais
0.01736692 French_Brittany
0.01981998 French_Seine-Maritime
0.01983842 German
0.02233627 Afrikaner
0.02236238 French_Occitanie
0.02253354 Welsh
0.02372871 English_Cornwall
0.02469604 English
0.02542801 French_Auvergne
0.02648846 Austrian
0.02829807 Dutch
0.02847306 Swiss_French
0.02896802 Scottish
0.03006651 Orcadian
0.03261133 Irish
0.03289964 French_Provence
0.03411419 Shetlandic
0.03443052 Italian_Aosta_Valley
0.03514416 Danish

Distance to: Dutch_close_Belgian
0.01383646 Welsh
0.01440108 English
0.01537568 English_Cornwall
0.01571955 French_Brittany
0.01600105 Afrikaner
0.01660245 German
0.01712103 Scottish
0.01867054 Belgian
0.01963443 Orcadian
0.02118634 Danish
0.02175778 Irish
0.02272787 French_Nord
0.02285874 Shetlandic
0.02462148 French_Pas-de-Calais
0.02489001 French_Alsace
0.02553754 Norwegian
0.02670095 French_Paris
0.02721478 French_Seine-Maritime
0.02725916 Icelandic
0.02891445 Austrian
0.02936471 Swiss_German
0.03042474 Swedish
0.03598511 German_East
0.03818559 Hungarian

Distance to: Other_Dutch
0.00968300 Danish
0.01220934 Scottish
0.01358978 Orcadian
0.01483607 Icelandic
0.01487888 Shetlandic
0.01534109 Norwegian
0.01552949 Irish
0.01567459 English
0.01679400 Welsh
0.01795837 English_Cornwall
0.01869675 Swedish
0.02310742 French_Brittany
0.02340936 German
0.02381310 Afrikaner
0.03296080 Belgian
0.03429901 German_East
0.03734004 French_Seine-Maritime
0.03739726 French_Pas-de-Calais
0.03753548 French_Nord
0.03761325 Austrian
0.03905388 Czech
0.04012285 French_Alsace
0.04143168 French_Paris
0.04320348 Hungarian

Distance to average ancient populations :

Distance to: Belgian_Liege_French_North_cluster
0.01037587 ITA_Collegno_MA
0.01233669 HUN_MA_Szolad
0.01536109 CZE_IA_La_Tene
0.01857947 ITA_Rome_Renaissance
0.01908122 Iberia_Northeast_c.6CE_PL
0.01916547 FRA_Champagne_IA2
0.02053553 SVK_LIA_La_Tene
0.02080552 England_LBA_highEEF
0.02096184 CZE_IA_Hallstatt
0.02164783 CZE_LBA_Knoviz
0.02208973 DEU_Lech_BBC
0.02315164 VK2020_SWE_Karda_VA
0.02359035 Bell_Beaker_Bavaria
0.02438638 VK2020_DNK_Jutland_VA
0.02462793 CHE_EBA
0.02474164 DEU_Singen_EBA
0.02506849 CZE_MBA_Tumulus
0.02526924 England_MIA_LIA
0.02528787 Levant_LBN_MA_o2
0.02531038 England_EIA
0.02547120 England_EBA_highEEF
0.02570301 Bell_Beaker_FRA_C
0.02638355 Bell_Beaker_CZE_late
0.02661851 Bell_Beaker_HUN_EBA
0.02684291 England_MIA

Distance to: Dutch_close_Belgian
0.01385946 VK2020_DNK_Jutland_VA
0.01616049 VK2020_DNK_Langeland_VA
0.01709674 VK2020_NOR_Mid_MA
0.01927508 VK2020_DNK_Sealand_VA
0.01953204 England_MIA_LIA
0.02005310 England_MIA
0.02011074 England_LIA
0.02015599 VK2020_SWE_Oland_VA
0.02023198 England_Roman
0.02068035 VK2020_England_Dorset_VA
0.02091829 CZE_IA_La_Tene
0.02109620 DEU_MA_Baiuvaric
0.02128997 England_EIA
0.02159581 England_EastYorkshire_MIA
0.02160714 HUN_MA_Szolad
0.02175215 England_EastYorkshire_MIA_LIA
0.02202963 England_LBA
0.02209062 ITA_Collegno_MA
0.02218923 VK2020_SWE_Skara_VA
0.02247483 VK2020_England_Oxford_VA
0.02255574 VK2020_DNK_Funen_VA
0.02261557 VK2020_SWE_Karda_VA
0.02270123 England_IA
0.02279498 VK2020_Faroes_EM
0.02284299 VK2020_ISL_Hofstadir_VA

Distance to: Other_Dutch
0.01214520 VK2020_Faroes_EM
0.01230035 VK2020_England_Dorset_VA
0.01249033 VK2020_DNK_Sealand_VA
0.01263463 VK2020_SWE_Skara_VA
0.01294208 VK2020_ISL_Hofstadir_VA
0.01301876 VK2020_DNK_Langeland_VA
0.01354024 VK2020_NOR_Mid_MA
0.01467565 VK2020_GreenlandE_VA
0.01495759 DEU_MA_Baiuvaric
0.01501404 VK2020_England_Oxford_VA
0.01554282 VK2020_DNK_Jutland_VA
0.01594779 England_Saxon
0.01606228 VK2020_DNK_Sealand_EVA
0.01630401 England_Roman
0.01666179 VK2020_SWE_Oland_VA
0.01678220 VK2020_ISL_Hringsdalur_VA
0.01721651 VK2020_DNK_Funen_VA
0.01760736 England_LIA
0.01792632 Scotland_EIA
0.01800207 England_IA
0.01825024 VK2020_NOR_North_VA
0.01877162 VK2020_Scotland_Orkney_VA
0.01914045 England_EastYorkshire_MIA
0.01918228 England_MBA
0.01947876 England_LBA

Yep the Dutch are not "tout court" like the Scandics xerxex!

altvred
01-26-2022, 08:32 AM
It looks like Belgians are the quincentennial generic Northwest Euros with an equidistant genetic distance from everybody around them French, Dutch, to a lesser extent some Germans, and the Southern English (the English_Kent samples from the 1KG). It makes sense from a purely geographic perspective if you think about it.



@anglesqueville

I've got Danish samples from this Danish twins study (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/geo/query/acc.cgi?acc=GSE76390) in case you need them. I already removed one twin from each pair, so there shouldn't be any related individuals on there.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1TL1MKkzuqsiW0S4ysrT31fP58GhE4lXs/view?usp=sharing

I also asked David to generate G25 coordinates for them, here they are.



Danish:GSM1985676,0.130897,0.137096,0.064111,0.061 37,0.044624,0.02259,0.004935,0.009461,-0.000205,0.000364,-0.009256,0.003447,-0.010555,0.001789,0.021308,-0.000796,-0.022687,0.006841,-0.002263,0.005753,0.010981,0.008037,-0.001479,0.009158,0.005868
Danish:GSM1985682,0.132035,0.132019,0.06939,0.0500 65,0.040623,0.022869,0.002585,0.005307,-0.000205,-0.004374,-0.00747,0.004646,-0.009514,-0.00812,0.019001,0.014452,0.014081,0.004561,0.0120 67,0.00988,0.00262,-0.002349,0.006779,0.011206,-0.00455
Danish:GSM1985685,0.135449,0.132019,0.069013,0.057 494,0.041546,0.023427,0.000235,0.007154,0.005727,-0.005285,-0.004222,0.008093,-0.010258,-0.002477,0.015472,-0.009546,-0.020731,0.003041,0.005531,-0.00025,0.006239,-0.000247,-0.000986,0.014942,-0.004431
Danish:GSM1985690,0.130897,0.135065,0.07203,0.0562 02,0.045547,0.019243,-0.000235,0.005769,0.000818,-0.007836,-0.000487,0.001049,-0.006244,-0.01101,0.026737,-0.005171,-0.012908,0.001394,0.002263,0.001126,0.011605,0.007 048,0.002588,0.026751,0.003592
Danish:GSM1985692,0.137726,0.137096,0.056945,0.051 034,0.039084,0.018407,0.00282,0.007384,0.001227,-0.002916,-0.003085,0.005095,-0.006987,-0.009358,0.023072,0.004641,-0.00013,-0.002027,-0.005154,0.009129,0.01123,-0.000989,0.00949,0.008676,0.000958
Danish:GSM1985698,0.127482,0.133034,0.063356,0.059 432,0.045855,0.028447,0.010105,0.011999,0.006954,0 .000547,-0.000812,0.006444,-0.01115,-0.009771,0.021444,-0.000265,-0.020079,-0.001014,0.004274,0.003252,0.003244,0.000989,-0.001725,0.00735,-0.005748
Danish:GSM1985702,0.129758,0.133034,0.06939,0.0471 58,0.040931,0.015897,0.00094,0.006461,0.001227,-0.000182,-0.007145,0.003897,-0.006244,-0.006881,0.021987,0.007558,-0.005215,0.001014,0.000377,0.005002,0.001123,0.000 124,0.00456,0.016026,-0.00467
Danish:GSM1985705,0.132035,0.142174,0.070522,0.050 388,0.048009,0.024542,0.009635,0.011307,0.000818,-0.002369,-0.00406,0.002847,-0.005946,-0.008945,0.017236,-0.003182,-0.02021,-0.001014,0.009679,0.003877,0.00836,0.009274,-0.001232,0.001446,-0.003113
Danish:GSM1985711,0.129758,0.129988,0.063733,0.051 034,0.039084,0.023427,0.00611,0.009923,0.004295,-0.007836,-0.005034,0.002847,-0.008771,-0.016239,0.019951,0.012596,-0.002217,-0.001267,0.002891,0.008879,0.001497,0.002844,-0.003081,0.018316,-0.002634
Danish:GSM1985714,0.126344,0.14319,0.063356,0.0481 27,0.04647,0.017849,0.00329,0.005538,0.007772,0.00 4191,-0.00341,-0.000599,-0.009663,-0.012386,0.014658,0.008618,-0.003912,-0.001647,0.000754,0.003877,0.008984,0.005564,0.002 095,0.011929,0.00467
Danish:GSM1985720,0.134311,0.132019,0.079572,0.058 786,0.042162,0.024542,0.004935,0.003923,0.009817,-0.008018,-0.000974,0.001948,-0.008176,-0.010184,0.013436,0.018563,0.008475,-0.003041,0.002137,0.012381,0.009483,0.002844,-0.000123,0.012773,0.003592
Danish:GSM1985723,0.127482,0.133034,0.062979,0.049 742,0.050163,0.018128,0.00705,0.006231,0.004704,0. 002916,-0.002111,0.006145,-0.00892,-0.007294,0.021037,0.011535,-0.007693,0.003294,0.005531,0.003627,0.002121,0.004 451,-0.001232,0.015062,0.005269
Danish:GSM1985729,0.135449,0.141159,0.068636,0.057 817,0.043085,0.018128,0.004935,0.000692,0.004704,-0.004009,-0.009094,0.000599,-0.005203,-0.00055,0.014929,0.001856,-0.016168,0.007095,0.002263,0.003001,0.00287,0.0002 47,-0.000123,0.012652,-0.002634
Danish:GSM1985733,0.130897,0.141159,0.065619,0.054 91,0.034776,0.020917,0.007285,0.011076,0.008999,-0.004009,-0.005521,0.001798,-0.007879,-0.009634,0.025108,-0.002121,-0.017602,-0.000127,0.000628,0.002251,0.010107,0.003833,-0.000863,0.01205,0.005269
Danish:GSM1985734,0.138864,0.136081,0.067882,0.062 016,0.0397,0.0251,0.00188,0.011307,0.005318,-0.00164,-0.005196,0.006744,-0.00773,-0.006881,0.020629,-0.009546,-0.026207,0.007475,0.01169,0.006128,0.007362,-0.002102,0.008504,0.011086,0.002754
Danish:GSM1985740,0.12862,0.127957,0.064111,0.0549 1,0.045239,0.014502,0.00752,0.007615,0.006954,-0.002187,-0.005846,0.002248,-0.002081,-0.006055,0.010993,0.019623,-0.002086,0.004941,0.006536,-0.000375,0.00287,0.005564,-0.002465,0.013857,0.001557
Danish:GSM1985744,0.129758,0.136081,0.060339,0.053 295,0.041546,0.016455,0.00141,0.008307,0.000614,-0.000911,-0.008769,0.006444,-0.010109,-0.008257,0.020358,0.000928,-0.012126,0.003674,0.003645,0.001876,0.000374,0.003 339,0.009613,0.013496,-0.000958
Danish:GSM1985748,0.130897,0.135065,0.067127,0.047 804,0.042469,0.022311,0.007755,0.006,0.002863,0.00 1458,-0.008607,-0.002248,-0.013974,-0.014175,0.016558,0.020949,0.009648,0.00266,0.0082 96,0.006253,0.006114,0.001731,0.000739,0.010483,0. 002155
Danish:GSM1985752,0.134311,0.138112,0.067127,0.054 587,0.043085,0.016176,0.002115,0.003231,0.006749,-0.000182,-0.00682,0.001049,-0.009217,-0.001789,0.025244,0.010342,-0.010431,0.004181,0.004651,-0.000125,0.005615,0.001731,-0.006532,0.016388,0.001437
Danish:GSM1985756,0.135449,0.132019,0.070522,0.059 755,0.043393,0.021196,0.003525,0.010615,0.001023,0 .003098,-0.001299,0.001049,-0.010258,-0.013487,0.011943,0.007823,-0.003781,0.005068,0.010182,0.004252,0.007487,0.004 575,0.0053,0.016267,0.005389
Danish:GSM1985761,0.138864,0.131003,0.065242,0.049 742,0.038776,0.023706,0.000705,0.003923,0.004295,-0.00164,-0.000974,-3e-04,-0.011001,-0.010322,0.013979,0.0118,0.00678,0.001267,0.00352, 0.002751,0.004742,-0.002968,0.003944,0.010724,-0.003473
Danish:GSM1985763,0.130897,0.128972,0.06675,0.0394 06,0.037545,0.016733,0.006815,0.010846,-0.000614,0.000911,-0.005521,0.003597,-0.0055,-0.008257,0.009093,0.006364,-0.00678,0.00038,-0.001383,0.007504,0.003369,-0.001607,0.001725,0.004338,0.006466
Danish:GSM1985767,0.132035,0.137096,0.06939,0.0545 87,0.042162,0.007809,0.00329,0.007384,-0.001227,-0.002369,-0.008444,0.004496,-0.001635,-0.002477,0.015336,0.01074,0.004955,-0.003547,0.007793,0.007754,0.000749,-0.000989,0.001109,0.011809,-0.004071
Danish:GSM1985773,0.12862,0.137096,0.065619,0.0607 24,0.03416,0.018965,0.001645,0.006,0.001227,-0.004009,-0.007632,0,-0.008176,-0.007844,0.015201,0.020286,0.005867,-0.0019,0.00264,0.006753,0.003619,0.003957,0.009737 ,0.017472,0.003473
Danish:GSM1985777,0.132035,0.13405,0.064488,0.0523 26,0.040007,0.016176,0.00329,0.009692,-0.000614,-0.008565,-0.005521,0.00045,-0.008325,-0.009358,0.026737,0.012066,-0.002738,0.006208,0.006411,0.011506,0.006489,0.002 473,-0.000123,0.014098,-0.000359
Danish:GSM1985779,0.127482,0.133034,0.069013,0.053 618,0.045239,0.016733,0.006345,0.007384,0.000205,-0.000911,-0.004872,0.003897,-0.005946,-0.012386,0.02443,0.012596,-0.011213,0.002534,0.001885,0.012881,0.009358,0.013 478,0.001479,0.013014,0.000599
Danish:GSM1985783,0.132035,0.137096,0.075047,0.054 91,0.047393,0.019243,0.004465,0.005769,0.011658,-0.003645,-0.006658,-3e-04,-0.009514,-0.01101,0.021444,0.006895,-0.004694,0.003801,0.00264,0.002626,0.00574,0.00222 6,-0.002588,0.014219,0.003353
Danish:GSM1985789,0.133173,0.13405,0.065996,0.0578 17,0.040315,0.017849,0.00564,-0.001154,0.007567,0.002551,-0.008282,0.001199,-0.009217,-0.013625,0.018322,0.016574,0.003781,0.003674,0.002 765,0.011881,0.003743,0.003462,0.000739,0.017593,0 .000479
Danish:GSM1985793,0.132035,0.138112,0.065619,0.043 282,0.037238,0.024542,0.008695,0.009461,0.003272,-0.00328,-0.005521,0.001499,-0.000149,0.000688,0.018051,0.002917,-0.021905,0.004814,0.001508,0.005002,0.008111,0.004 946,-0.003697,0.022051,-0.000239
Danish:GSM1985794,0.133173,0.140143,0.063356,0.052 326,0.038161,0.018407,0.009165,0.009461,0.000818,-0.002369,-0.003248,0.001049,-0.004906,-0.017478,0.020629,0.017767,0.005346,0,0.000251,0.0 03252,0.001996,0.003833,0.000863,0.019159,-0.002634
Danish:GSM1985799,0.130897,0.139128,0.070144,0.046 835,0.041546,0.018128,0.003995,0.005769,0.00859,-0.000547,0,0.002098,-0.012339,-0.003441,0.016422,0.00305,-0.000913,0.002027,0.008925,0.007504,0.004991,0.004 204,-0.002342,0.011206,0.005389
Danish:GSM1985803,0.138864,0.137096,0.072784,0.056 202,0.043085,0.018128,0.00517,0.007154,-0.001841,-0.00492,-0.009906,0.005695,-0.007284,-0.005367,0.017644,0.012331,0.004824,0.003167,0.003 771,0.002376,0.004367,-0.00136,-0.001109,0.020605,-0.006466
Danish:GSM1985807,0.130897,0.131003,0.072407,0.053 295,0.041238,0.022032,0.008695,0.007384,0.009817,-0.003645,-0.010718,0.004346,-0.011596,-0.00867,0.020629,0.006895,-0.00665,0.003674,0.005531,0.000125,0.006114,0.0039 57,-0.001849,0.015062,0.001676
Danish:GSM1985812,0.130897,0.139128,0.053174,0.043 282,0.037545,0.018128,0.001645,-0.000462,0.007976,0.002551,0.003897,0.007343,-0.015758,-0.005918,0.022665,-0.008486,-0.013951,0.005954,0.009176,-0.000375,0.003619,0.003586,0.001479,0.010001,0.006 586
Danish:GSM1985817,0.130897,0.137096,0.068259,0.052 649,0.036314,0.018407,0.00564,0.006,-0.000205,-0.003098,0.000162,0.001948,-0.014123,-0.006468,0.016965,-0.006895,-0.022035,0.000507,0.002137,-0.001126,0.00549,-0.003339,-0.001602,0.012773,-0.002395
Danish:GSM1985821,0.129758,0.13405,0.062225,0.0429 59,0.036622,0.02008,0.006345,0.007154,0.005522,0.0 03462,-0.01088,0.005095,-0.009514,-0.007156,0.017508,0.004773,-0.005215,0.002154,0.00264,0.005503,0.006114,0.0068 01,0.001849,0.009881,-0.000718
Danish:GSM1985825,0.124067,0.135065,0.052797,0.043 605,0.036314,0.014781,0.00611,0.004154,-0.001023,-0.000911,-0.004222,-0.001649,-0.008474,-0.003441,0.015744,-0.010872,-0.024643,-0.000633,0.001634,0,0.002121,0.008285,-0.001849,0.016749,-0.002634
Danish:GSM1985829,0.135449,0.132019,0.066373,0.056 525,0.040623,0.021196,0.006815,0.009923,0.000205,-0.002916,-0.007145,0.004646,-0.00892,-0.000963,0.017101,0.001856,-0.006389,-0.002914,0.004651,0.006378,0.006738,0.002597,0.001 972,0.01446,0.000958
Danish:GSM1985833,0.130897,0.129988,0.073916,0.050 711,0.049548,0.015618,0.001175,0.010384,0.012476,0 .005832,-0.004384,0.005095,-0.008771,-0.009221,0.019272,0.015646,0.009779,-0.002787,-0.00352,0.014632,0.006364,0.003215,-0.003204,0.015544,0.002395
Danish:GSM1985837,0.132035,0.129988,0.064865,0.055 233,0.042162,0.013945,0.00141,0.000231,0.003477,-0.001822,-0.006658,0,0.000595,-0.011698,0.008415,0.016043,0.01017,-0.00266,0.003017,0.001751,0.010232,0.003339,0.0024 65,0.019039,-0.001317
Danish:GSM1985841,0.129758,0.12491,0.064488,0.0584 63,0.040931,0.023427,0,0.007846,0.002454,-0.001093,-0.009256,0.003897,-0.012636,-0.004679,0.019137,0.012198,-0.006519,0.007475,0.007919,-0.002251,0.007487,0.004204,-0.001972,0.011568,-0.003832


They overlap with existing Danish samples, but you can never have too many IMHO.

Finn
01-26-2022, 08:38 AM
I also asked David to generate G25 coordinates for them, here they are.

They overlap with existing Danish samples, but you can never have too many IMHO.

Thanks!!!


The old en the new Danes, the old samples were bit more NE wards.

The new ones are also in the overlap Irish/Danes/ Dutch.

https://i.postimg.cc/rwGsSp4P/Schermafbeelding-2022-01-26-om-10-00-22.png (https://postimg.cc/K1zmbxJP)

Finn
01-26-2022, 08:51 AM
A relevant point to consider. It might very well mean that by chance (or as a result of G25) some Dutch end up in Danish, Irish and Belgian clusters.

Of course, the overlap is also big, but I guess it's not a full lottery....

CGPF
01-26-2022, 09:05 AM
I did a little work for you. First I updated the labels (Kent, Cornwall, etc). Then I added Busby's Irish and Welsh (which I am wary of because they have been heavily imputed). And above all, I added a "Forum_NL" mini-cluster, which contains Elske_dad, Monedula, Kellebel, and Finn's parents. I post a big pdf with all of Europe, and a small one with only the NW Europeans (without the French).
48161
48162

Many thanks. Interesting how different methods and datasets form different clusters. In your MDS the Irish cluster mainly overlaps with the Danish cluster, whereas G25 gives an opposite result.Besides, in your MDS Forum NL has no overlap with the Belgian cluster, but you show that Kellebel is the one of Forum NL closest to the Belgians.

Finn
01-26-2022, 09:14 AM
Many thanks. Interesting how different methods and datasets form different clusters. In your MDS the Irish cluster mainly overlaps with the Danish cluster, whereas G25 gives an opposite result.Besides, in your MDS Forum NL has no overlap with the Belgian cluster, but you show that Kellebel is the one of Forum NL closest to the Belgians.

Indeed and with the new samples from Alvred this is a bit corrected in G25.

Nevertheless it makes sense that the 'Beakerish" or 'Irish' component is overall has had it influences. In the NE Dutch case the influences from the North German Plain and Southern Scandinavia has always been bigger than in the rest of the country. Most lately with the Anglo-Saxons (that had initial no interest in the nowadays province of Holland).

The South is in fact Central-West European, with Belgae La Tene etc.

Of course this is a simplification but I guess it has some truth.

CGPF
01-26-2022, 09:26 AM
Of course, the overlap is also big, but I guess it's not a full lottery....

Yes, I keep struggling with the impact of the ‘game of chance’ on the relative position of a person within a cluster (which cluster is to a certain extent artificial and heavily influenced by the dataset used). The fact that some Dutch - including myself - cluster with the Irish and have (relatively more) Irish matches could very well be the insignificant outcome of a thousands years long game of chance consisting of a large gene pool with many movements of people and not so much a still explainable movement of some groups of people… although I would love the storyline that the ‘Middle Dutch’ have relatively more Rhenish beaker DNA than the rest of the Dutch, because they cluster with the Irish.