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View Full Version : So, my maternal grandfather was R1b-Z253. What can you tell me about that?



rms2
12-22-2020, 08:19 PM
My mother's maiden name was Gist. This morning a Gist relative in the same Y-chromosome line got his Big Y-700 results, which place him in R1b-FGC59523.

Here's the phylogenetic pedigree, beginning with great-great-great, etc. grandpa R-M207:

M207>M173>M343>L754>L389>P297>M269>L23>L51>P310> L151>P312>Z290> L21>DF13>ZZ10>Z253>FGC3268>ZZ6>BY43439>BY4303> FGC59516>FGC59535> FGC59523

For several years, from the very beginning of the rediscovery of L21, I was the admin of the L21 Project, and I even discovered a couple of Z253 haplotype clusters myself. But since then I have not kept up with Z253, so maybe you all can bring me up to date.

My maternal grandfather's surname, Gist, is most frequent in Devon.

41888

So, was my maternal grandfather derived for that terminal SNP, FGC59523? Honestly, I don't know. The MRCA he and this Gist relative share was Nathaniel Gist. He was born about 1707, so some branching could have occurred a SNP or two back down the tree in the direction of the root. Thus my grandfather's terminal SNP might be something other than FGC59523.

Still, they will share most of that pedigree, so I am in the ballpark with these results.

BTW, here's something pretty amazing: the subject of these Big Y-700 results passed away back in 2012. FTDNA used his sample from their cold storage, a sample he submitted back in 2004!

When this man's daughter ordered the upgrade for him, it was accompanied by some fervent prayers from me. Thanks to You, God! I am grateful for these results!

rms2
12-22-2020, 09:01 PM
BTW, this Big Y-700 guy has no matches at 111 STRs and above.

He has a 64/67 match, another Gist, but that's it, because that's as far as that man has tested. The Gists are an undertested bunch.

rms2
12-22-2020, 09:46 PM
So, anybody else here R1b-L21 on both sides, paternal line and maternal grandfather? Does that make me kind of inbred? :P

JoeyP37
12-22-2020, 10:17 PM
If you're inbred, all of Ireland is! My paternal-line grandfather's maternal grandfather was a Brady of Cavan, and barring an NPE, was Z253>L1066.

rms2
12-28-2020, 08:43 PM
Shortly after posting Post #3 above, I wound up in the hospital for a couple of days, and did not get home until around sunset on Christmas Eve. By that time, I didn't care much about anything but how lousy I felt, and I wanted to go back to sleep.

I'm not fully back - not even close - but I was hoping some Z253 expert could tell me a little about the line my maternal grandfather was on, if there is much of anything known about it.

Nothing spectacular about how I wound up in the hospital: I fell down the stairs, hit my head, and broke both my arms - the left not too terribly badly, but the right is a mess. I have no memory of the fall down the stairs or how it happened.

Kopfjäger
12-28-2020, 11:50 PM
Shortly after posting Post #3 above, I wound up in the hospital for a couple of days, and did not get home until around sunset on Christmas Eve. By that time, I didn't care much about anything but how lousy I felt, and I wanted to go back to sleep.

I'm not fully back - not even close - but I was hoping some Z253 expert could tell me a little about the line my maternal grandfather was on, if there is much of anything known about it.

Nothing spectacular about how I wound up in the hospital: I fell down the stairs, hit my head, and broke both my arms - the left not too terribly badly, but the right is a mess. I have no memory of the fall down the stairs or how it happened.

Hey, Rich - I'm glad you're ok, and get better, man. Merry Christmas to you and the family!

Welcome to the ZZ10 club! I do belong to Z253's brother clade after all, Z255, although I reckon you're of more esteemed heritage lol.

Greg Hockings used to be my contact for Z253 guys, used to mix em up among the Z255 fellows. He would know much more about it, no doubt.

rms2
12-30-2020, 12:37 AM
Thanks!

Well, I have to amend things a bit, thanks to developments on FTDNA's end.

Turns out kit 25861 (my Gist relative) is actually ancestral for FGC59523 but derived for FGC37526, which, according to FTDNA, will necessitate a change to the phylogenetic tree.

Meanwhile, they're listing him everywhere as R-FGC59516 (I prefer R1b-FGC59516) until things get sorted out. FGC59516 is a couple of spots back down the tree in the direction of the root, so it's a good, conservative placeholder while we wait.

That's good for me, since my maternal grandfather was probably derived for that one.

rms2
12-30-2020, 02:58 PM
Okay, as of this morning, FTDNA has amended my Gist relative's status and shows him as R-BY93500 (R1b-BY93500).

I think that will probably do it for a while, since it reflects a change in the Z253 tree.

Here's the BY93500 phylogeny:

M207>M173>M343>L754>L389>P297>M269>L23>L51>P310> L151>P312>Z290> L21>DF13>ZZ10>Z253>FGC3268>ZZ6>BY43439>BY4303>FGC59516>BY93500

Anyway, this is good stuff. It keeps this hobby interesting.

rms2
01-09-2021, 11:47 AM
Doesn't look like Z253 stirs up much general interest.

It is early morning here, and I am tired, so I might not be as sharp as I could be, but it appears that currently YFull's tree only goes as far as FGC3628 in my Gist cousin's Y-chromosome line, as seen here (https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-FGC3268/).

That's only one step downstream of Z253 itself, so not too far, with a TMRCA of 4000 ybp.

Here's how things look for my Gist cousin from FGC3268 on:

FGC3268>ZZ6>BY43439>BY4303>FGC59516>BY93500

alejandromb92
01-09-2021, 12:35 PM
Doesn't look like Z253 stirs up much general interest.

It is early morning here, and I am tired, so I might not be as sharp as I could be, but it appears that currently YFull's tree only goes as far as FGC3628 in my Gist cousin's Y-chromosome line, as seen here (https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-FGC3268/).

That's only one step downstream of Z253 itself, so not too far, with a TMRCA of 4000 ybp.

Here's how things look for my Gist cousin from FGC3268 on:

FGC3268>ZZ6>BY43439>BY4303>FGC59516>BY93500

At least more interesting than DF63 :lol:

rms2
01-09-2021, 12:53 PM
FGC3268>ZZ6>BY43439>BY4303>FGC59516>BY93500

Of course, that tail end, from FGC3268 on south, doesn't look like enough to represent 4000 years, but one must recall that most or all of those SNPs represent entire blocks of SNPs currently treated as if they were all on the same phylogenetic level. However, we know they are not really on the same level. It's just that we do not yet know what order the SNPs in each block (represented by those single listed SNPs) occurred in or when. Only much more testing, some of it of ancient samples, will provide that information.

Looking at my maternal relative's Block Tree, however, shows that everybody on it from BY4303 on down reports a MDKA born in England. It would be interesting to know if they were all from SW England or not.

rms2
01-29-2021, 10:20 PM
It's amazing to me how little response this thread has garnered. A few years ago there would have been Z253 guys all over it.

I get the impression that many of the guys from the L21 subclades just don't frequent Anthrogenica anymore.

Or maybe it's just that no one has much insight to offer on my maternal grandfather's terminal SNP.

Kind of a bummer, because I'm bored and looking for some interesting genetic genealogy stuff to discuss.

alejandromb92
01-29-2021, 10:24 PM
It's amazing to me how little response this thread has garnered. A few years ago there would have been Z253 guys all over it.

I get the impression that many of the guys from the L21 subclades just don't frequent Anthrogenica anymore.

Or maybe it's just that no one has much insight to offer on my maternal grandfather's terminal SNP.

Kind of a bummer, because I'm bored and looking for some interesting genetic genealogy stuff to discuss.

Where he was from? I mean, that line can be traced till which point of the map?

NOTE: my english sucks, sorry for that in advance.

rms2
01-29-2021, 10:40 PM
Long story. I used to think my maternal grandfather's Y-DNA line could be traced all the way back to the 17th century immigrant from England, but the surname project shows a snag in that regard. Now we know we can only get with confidence as far back as my 5th great grandfather, who was born in Baltimore, Maryland, in about 1707.

Here (https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?21904-Gist-Gest-Guess-Guest-Project-Mystery&p=712523&viewfull=1#post712523) is a more thorough explanation.

rms2
02-01-2021, 06:45 PM
My maternal grandfather's terminal SNP now has its pedigree at Genetic Homeland:

BY93500 (https://www.genetichomeland.com/welcome/dnapedigree.asp?RecordID=1370440)

It's also represented in the English Mapping DNA Project there: BY93500 (https://www.genetichomeland.com/homeland.asp?GMM=Search&DataSourceID=20&CID=1370440).

On that initial map it lists Devon, England, but if you click on the words "DNA Project" below that, it takes you to Wiltshire and a couple of surnames of other men in that project who are R1b-BY93500.

Kind of cool, anyway.