PDA

View Full Version : Using Greek-related populations to model modern Turks: Feasibility?



bovefex
12-30-2020, 02:28 PM
Hello all,

I was wondering who the native ancestors of modern Turks might be. For example, are all Turks partially descended from Cappadocian/Anatolian Greeks? Are northerners partially descended from Pontics? And southerners from a Cypriot-like group?

I am asking this, because while trying to model Turks, I realized that Cappadocian and Pontic Greeks are actually pretty similar, and I was afraid of overfitting the model. Another thing is that, when you use the Greek_Cappadocia, Greek_Trabzon and TUR_Ottoman:M195 samples, even Turks from far away regions, such as those from the south, get high amounts of Greek_Trabzon.

I have also noticed that adding an extra Steppe component, such as RUS_Yamnaya_Samara, when only using Greek_Cappadocia and TUR_Ottoman:195 seems to improve the fit by a decent amount and makes the calculator give around 5% extra Steppe to almost all Turks. Other component, such as one from Neolithic Iran, seems to improve the fit for southwestern Turks when used next to Greek_Kos and the Ottoman sample and also seems to give some interesting results.

Would someone more knowledgeable be willing to shed some light on this subject?

Liquid
02-06-2021, 12:20 PM
I've managed to model myself as a Cretan Greek, Ossetian and Dungan(!), while the fit is quite good, these are modern populations. Perhaps it shows that to model a Turk as a Greek you need to add a Caucasian/Steppe component (Ossetian) and an Asian/Turkic component (Dungan) to the Greek.

Johnny ola
02-06-2021, 01:24 PM
Turkish people if you remove their 'Turkoman' admixture they coming like Central Anatolian/Cappadocian Greeks.Trabzon people are more caucasus shifted and they represent better the natives of northeast anatolia (from Trabzon/Gumushane,Rize,Artvin).The only regions/provinces where Turkic admixture is limited to absent are EasternBlacksea(Not Giresun inclunding),Eastern Anatolia....where the genetics are more Armenian/Kurdish like(with exception Azeri like folks).The rest of Anatolia is pretty much the same.There is a Levant shift(not crazy amounts) as you go southern in the regions bordering with Syria.(Adana,Mersin,Hatay etc),but keep in mind there are Arabian related populations there.The highest 'Turkoman' admixture can be seen in the more western regions of Anatolia(balikesir etc).So,the answer is no.There are not any other provinces in Anatolia being 'Greek Trabzon' like.To model modern Turks you will need something from bronze age Anatolia and something Turkoman/Turkic associated.The Karakhanid refrences are not that bad.You might need something transcaucasus(depends individual).

Seabass
02-06-2021, 02:30 PM
I also think Greek_Dodocanese and ITA_Rome_Imperial (preferably once you remove outliers) is also needed for particularly for some Turks in West Turkey. I imagine a Greek-Macedonian population could also be useful for modelling some Turks too in more cosmopolitan centres, especially some from Istanbul and Izmir. If both Greek Cappadocian and Greek Dodocanese pop up, there is a chance also this could mean an ancestral Anatolian population similar to TUR_Isparta could play a role.

Johnny ola
02-06-2021, 02:55 PM
I also think Greek_Dodocanese and ITA_Rome_Imperial (preferably once you remove outliers) is also needed for particularly for some Turks in West Turkey. I imagine a Greek-Macedonian population could also be useful for modelling some Turks too in more cosmopolitan centres, especially some from Istanbul and Izmir. If both Greek Cappadocian and Greek Dodocanese pop up, there is a chance also this could mean an ancestral Anatolian population similar to TUR_Isparta could play a role.

Αgree.Without being 100% sure but i think some of the western anatolian Turks might require something Slavic in their modelings.I am not sure if this has to do with the arrival of balkan Turks or something but i think even the native Turks there have something from the Slavs.

Ajeje Brazorf
02-06-2021, 07:33 PM
Anatolian Turks modeled using modern populations:


Target: Turkish_Southwest
Distance: 0.8919% / 0.00891882 | R3P
43.8 Kurdish
39.4 Greek_Izmir
16.8 Altaian

Target: Turkish_South
Distance: 0.7026% / 0.00702614 | R3P
46.0 Greek_Central_Anatolia
41.6 Turkmen_Uzbekistan
12.4 Kumyk

Target: Turkish_Rumeli
Distance: 0.9927% / 0.00992722 | R3P
56.8 Greek_Kos
29.4 Slovakian
13.8 Tubalar

Target: Turkish_Northwest
Distance: 0.7209% / 0.00720924 | R3P
45.8 Turkmen
35.8 Greek_Izmir
18.4 Greek_Trabzon

Target: Turkish_North
Distance: 0.7124% / 0.00712428 | R3P
40.4 Turkmen
39.0 Greek_Trabzon
20.6 Italian_Molise

Target: Turkish_Kayseri
Distance: 0.5428% / 0.00542830 | R3P
72.6 Armenian
14.2 Nogai
13.2 Greek_Thessaly

Target: Turkish_Istanbul
Distance: 0.7960% / 0.00796033 | R3P
67.8 Greek_Central_Anatolia
22.6 Tatar_Lipka
9.6 Jatt_Pathak

Target: Turkish_East
Distance: 0.8535% / 0.00853488 | R3P
42.2 Iranian_Fars
40.0 Greek_Central_Anatolia
17.8 North_Ossetian

Target: Turkish_Deliorman
Distance: 0.6780% / 0.00677993 | R3P
68.0 Moldovan
16.2 Karaite_Egypt
15.8 Turkmen

Target: Turkish_Central
Distance: 0.6008% / 0.00600824 | R3P
49.2 Armenian
30.6 Turkmen
20.2 Italian_Apulia

Target: Turkish_Balikesir
Distance: 1.0348% / 0.01034784 | R3P
42.6 Turkmen_Uzbekistan
31.4 Greek_Cappadocia
26.0 Greek_Thessaly

Target: Turkish_Aydin
Distance: 0.9249% / 0.00924870 | R3P
50.2 Armenian
27.6 Rumelia_East
22.2 Kazakh

Target: Turkish_Adana
Distance: 0.9006% / 0.00900592 | R3P
55.0 Kurdish
36.8 Greek_Crete
8.2 Khakass_Kachins

Liquid
02-07-2021, 03:03 AM
Anatolian Turks modeled using modern populations:


Target: Turkish_Northwest
Distance: 0.7209% / 0.00720924 | R3P
45.8 Turkmen
35.8 Greek_Izmir
18.4 Greek_Trabzon


Where did you get the coordinates which you have you used, Davidski? My dad is from Western Turkey and my mum from the North, broadly Izmir and Trabzon, and this is the best fit I could manage, which isn't that great.

Target: Liquid_scaled
Distance: 1.7196% / 0.01719595
34.0 Turkmen
33.0 Greek_Izmir
33.0 Greek_Trabzon

Liquid
02-07-2021, 03:35 AM
Αgree.Without being 100% sure but i think some of the western anatolian Turks might require something Slavic in their modelings.I am not sure if this has to do with the arrival of balkan Turks or something but i think even the native Turks there have something from the Slavs.

I suppose you can model modern Turks using any populations you like but lets look at the facts, the only route Greeks and Slavs had into Anatolia was through the sea, which puts them into the categories of invaders and colonizers; just look at the easy land routes the Anatolian land mass has with the Pontic Steppes, Caucasus, Levant, Iran and beyond.

Johnny ola
02-07-2021, 11:46 AM
I suppose you can model modern Turks using any populations you like but lets look at the facts, the only route Greeks and Slavs had into Anatolia was through the sea, which puts them into the categories of invaders and colonizers; just look at the easy land routes the Anatolian land mass has with the Pontic Steppes, Caucasus, Levant, Iran and beyond.

Western Anatolian Turks have assilimated ' Greek'/'Anatolian Greek' people. This is why in my modelings some of them fit well with some balto-slavic drift.

eolien
02-07-2021, 01:24 PM
I suppose you can model modern Turks using any populations you like but lets look at the facts, the only route Greeks and Slavs had into Anatolia was through the sea, which puts them into the categories of invaders and colonizers; just look at the easy land routes the Anatolian land mass has with the Pontic Steppes, Caucasus, Levant, Iran and beyond.

I don't understand your logic. If you come via land (and not sea route) you are an not invader or colonizer? Things are not so simple especially if you use modern political categories for ancient human movements.

Seabass
02-07-2021, 02:11 PM
I don't think Greeks or Turks deny that their culture is one which spread to Anatolia from outside and could well have assimilated descendants of Lydians and Hittites. What's interesting though is that both Central Anatolian Greeks (potentially Western-Anatolian Greeks) Dodocanese Islander Greeks and majority of Anatolian Turks (I want to add Turkish Jews to a lesser extent as well) can be modelled partially fine with Bronze Age Anatolian samples.

Ajeje Brazorf
02-07-2021, 02:15 PM
Where did you get the coordinates which you have you used, Davidski? My dad is from Western Turkey and my mum from the North, broadly Izmir and Trabzon, and this is the best fit I could manage, which isn't that great.

Target: Liquid_scaled
Distance: 1.7196% / 0.01719595
34.0 Turkmen
33.0 Greek_Izmir
33.0 Greek_Trabzon

I used modern averages. I can try to model for you if you PM me your coordinates.

Johnny ola
02-07-2021, 02:18 PM
I don't think Greeks or Turks deny that their culture is one which spread to Anatolia from outside and could well have assimilated descendants of Lydians and Hittites. What's interesting though is that both Central Anatolian Greeks (potentially Western-Anatolian Greeks) Dodocanese Islander Greeks and majority of Anatolian Turks (I want to add Turkish Jews to a lesser extent as well) can be modelled partially fine with Bronze Age Anatolian samples.

Cypriots as well and Cretans. They are all of them more west Asian admixed.

Seabass
02-07-2021, 02:20 PM
Cypriots as well and Cretans. They are all of them more west Asian admixed.

Ofcourse! Bad of me to forget them along with possibly others.

Johnny ola
02-07-2021, 02:25 PM
Ofcourse! Bad of me to forget them along with possibly others.

Don't worry. We need samples from hellenistic and Roman/Byzantine times to check when exactly they started becoming more 'Anatolian' like. Byzantine Greeks is another mystery especially what people used to inhabit in Costantinoupoli and the lands of the west Anatolian Coast.

Cazu
02-07-2021, 02:29 PM
Turkish people if you remove their 'Turkoman' admixture they coming like Central Anatolian/Cappadocian Greeks.Trabzon people are more caucasus shifted and they represent better the natives of northeast anatolia (from Trabzon/Gumushane,Rize,Artvin).The only regions/provinces where Turkic admixture is limited to absent are EasternBlacksea(Not Giresun inclunding),Eastern Anatolia....where the genetics are more Armenian/Kurdish like(with exception Azeri like folks).The rest of Anatolia is pretty much the same.There is a Levant shift(not crazy amounts) as you go southern in the regions bordering with Syria.(Adana,Mersin,Hatay etc),but keep in mind there are Arabian related populations there.The highest 'Turkoman' admixture can be seen in the more western regions of Anatolia(balikesir etc).So,the answer is no.There are not any other provinces in Anatolia being 'Greek Trabzon' like.To model modern Turks you will need something from bronze age Anatolia and something Turkoman/Turkic associated.The Karakhanid refrences are not that bad.You might need something transcaucasus(depends individual).

It depends on the region, Central Anatolian Greeks/Cappadocian Greeks are not good with Western part of Anatolia it needs Dodecanese like admixture with some central Anatolianlike. Pontic Greeks and Central Anatolian Greeks seem to be fine with modelling eastern half of the Black sea(west of Trabzon). For the Balkan Turks Bulgarian-Northern Macadonianlike population seem to be fine with modelling. NW Anatolia seem to have a bit more europeanlike shift, it is quite small though compared to other Anatolian Turks and Dodecanese and CA Greeks still ok. Natives there should have that shift maybe from Thrace since it is quite close in proximity.

And Actually no there is no Levant Shift in Mersin or Adana and Arabs of these provinces are not natives but late comers in 19th century so no mixing with them, and also their genetics does not seem to show any sign of Levantine shift. Only province with native Arab related population amaong these 3 province was Hatay and even Hatay was not fully Arabic speakig. I will leave individuals k12b results of provinces below to give some idea. About Eastern Turks native parts of them rather Udilike in NE part of the country. For Elazıg and Malatya it needs a bit more iraniclike. For Gaziantep and Kilis something between Cappadocian Greek and Assyrian would be fine i guess.
and than adding Turkic/Oghuz ancestry Turks brought, unfortunately we still do not have medieval Oghuz DNA, but still we can guess how it used to looklike roughly.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Pj2rBe3L-Jf89JFACjTC1hSRfI7EOps-zed1x0FFpbY/edit#gid=0

[QUOTE=I also think Greek_Dodocanese and ITA_Rome_Imperial (preferably once you remove outliers) is also needed for particularly for some Turks in West Turkey. I imagine a Greek-Macedonian population could also be useful for modelling some Turks too in more cosmopolitan centres, especially some from Istanbul and Izmir. If both Greek Cappadocian and Greek Dodocanese pop up, there is a chance also this could mean an ancestral Anatolian population similar to TUR_Isparta could play a role.[/QUOTE]

Why would anyone model Turks from cosmopolitan cities. And Why would Greek Macadonian would be usefull. First of all if you imply Balkan Turks their balkan part of admixture "mostly" come from Balkan Slavs not Greeks, like Bulgarian-Northern Macadonian. Though Macedonian Greek sample seem to be Bulgarianlike. For example now Salonika is in Greece but we have Turks from there more than %30 NE admixture in dodecad k12b fe, yet Greeks from Salonika seem to have it average of 25%. Balkan Turks native Balkan part should be Bulgarianlike rather than Greeklike.

About Modelling Cosmopolitan Cities, Istanbul has the biggest population share from Black Sean Turks(i am one of them) and Central-East Anatolian Turks and then others etc. And most people come here after 1950s.Istanbul also has its own Native population anyway. So any individul should show diffenet genetic caharacteristics. Modelling cosmopolitan Cities where eveybody knows where they come from would not make sense at all and would not give any usefull outcome. Today Salonika and Katerini etc are full of Pontic Greeks do people model these cities with using Pontics Greeks there? I doubt so, because it does not make sense. West Turkey natives genetics' also a bit diffent than Balkan Turks, all Balkan Turks are awere of their ancestry as well, instead of calling them Turks in West Turkey you can call them simply Balkan Turks.

Cazu
02-07-2021, 02:41 PM
I also think Greek_Dodocanese and ITA_Rome_Imperial (preferably once you remove outliers) is also needed for particularly for some Turks in West Turkey. I imagine a Greek-Macedonian population could also be useful for modelling some Turks too in more cosmopolitan centres, especially some from Istanbul and Izmir. If both Greek Cappadocian and Greek Dodocanese pop up, there is a chance also this could mean an ancestral Anatolian population similar to TUR_Isparta could play a role.


Αgree.Without being 100% sure but i think some of the western anatolian Turks might require something Slavic in their modelings.I am not sure if this has to do with the arrival of balkan Turks or something but i think even the native Turks there have something from the Slavs.

Southwest Anatolian and Northwest Anatolian averages on G25 are among the native Turks there not from Balkan admixed Turks or Balkan Turks. So if there is something slaviclike it should rather came from Pre-Turkic natives IMO. And i do not think it has to be Slavic.

Johnny ola
02-07-2021, 02:54 PM
Southwest Anatolian and Northwest Anatolian averages on G25 are among the native Turks there not from Balkan admixed Turks or Balkan Turks. So if there is something slaviclike it should rather came from Pre-Turkic natives IMO. And i do not think it has to be Slavic.

As I mention above the western Anatolian Turks require something balkanic/Slavic in their modelings. It's true that they are not a pure Central Anatolian Greek Group with something central Asian(Turkoman like). They have something close to Greek islanders and Izmir Greeks and this is besides their bronze age Anatolian admixture. They need something 'steppish' with Eastern European shift. Norhtwest Turks including those from Ordu, Amasya, Sinope, Kastanomu etc are less Caucasus shifted compared to Northeast Anatolians from the eastern areas of blacksea.They also have more steppe admixture. People from Trabzon, Rize, Gumushane, Artvin etc usually lack steppe DNA.

Cazu
02-07-2021, 03:44 PM
As I mention above the western Anatolian Turks require something balkanic/Slavic in their modelings. It's true that they are not a pure Central Anatolian Greek Group with something central Asian(Turkoman like). They have something close to Greek islanders and Izmir Greeks and this is besides their bronze age Anatolian admixture. They need something 'steppish' with Eastern European shift. Norhtwest Turks including those from Ordu, Amasya, Sinope, Kastanomu etc are less Caucasus shifted compared to Northeast Anatolians from the eastern areas of blacksea.They also have more steppe admixture. People from Trabzon, Rize, Gumushane, Artvin etc usually lack steppe DNA.

Those cities are not from West though, Turkics also bring Steppe admixture to Anatolia, it is just NW Anatolian pre-Turkics seem to have extra Steppe compared to rest of Anatolian pre-Turkics, fe the higher amonut of Steppe among Turks compered to Central Anatolian or Cappadocian Greeks in those areas because of their Turkic Ancestry, also the great difference between Giresun-Trabzon Turks due to Giresun Turks' Turkic Ancestry. But preTurkics' Steppe ancestry seem to increse with Sinop and west of it, closer to Tharace higher the pre-Turkic steppe ancestry.

Johnny ola
02-07-2021, 04:16 PM
Those cities are not from West though, Turkics also bring Steppe admixture to Anatolia, it is just NW Anatolian pre-Turkics seem to have extra Steppe compared to rest of Anatolian pre-Turkics, fe the higher amonut of Steppe among Turks compered to Central Anatolian or Cappadocian Greeks in those areas because of their Turkic Ancestry, also the great difference between Giresun-Trabzon Turks due to Giresun Turks' Turkic Ancestry. But preTurkics' Steppe ancestry seem to increse with Sinop and west of it, closer to Tharace higher the pre-Turkic steppe ancestry.

Yes taking serious these R1b lineages there it seems Thracians and Maybe Phrygians left an impact.But even the western Pontus contains steppe.Witch means these lands were in contact with IE anatolian folks unlike eastern Pontus where the genetic make up seems more Caucasus shifted.


A simple model for Turkish Northwest it would be this thought:


Target: Turkish_Northwest:Turkish_Northwest9
Distance: 2.6843% / 0.02684270
60.8 TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA
19.8 KAZ_Karakhanid
19.4 RUS_Catacomb

Target: Turkish_Northwest:Turkish_Northwest8
Distance: 2.7063% / 0.02706340
53.2 TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA
33.6 KAZ_Karakhanid
13.2 RUS_Catacomb

Target: Turkish_Northwest:Turkish_Northwest7
Distance: 2.4867% / 0.02486663
60.4 TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA
21.2 KAZ_Karakhanid
18.4 RUS_Catacomb

Target: Turkish_Northwest:Turkish_Northwest5
Distance: 2.4340% / 0.02434046
56.4 TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA
28.4 KAZ_Karakhanid
15.2 RUS_Catacomb

Target: Turkish_Northwest:Turkish_Northwest4
Distance: 2.2544% / 0.02254369
60.2 TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA
21.0 KAZ_Karakhanid
18.8 RUS_Catacomb

Target: Turkish_Northwest:Turkish_Northwest3
Distance: 1.8770% / 0.01876970
61.2 TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA
23.6 KAZ_Karakhanid
15.2 RUS_Catacomb

Target: Turkish_Northwest:Turkish_Northwest2
Distance: 1.8084% / 0.01808389
57.8 TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA
21.6 KAZ_Karakhanid
20.6 RUS_Catacomb

Target: Turkish_Northwest:Turkish_Northwest10
Distance: 2.1800% / 0.02180011
47.6 TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA
39.2 KAZ_Karakhanid
13.2 RUS_Catacomb

Target: Turkish_Northwest:Turkish_Northwest1
Distance: 2.2810% / 0.02281027
63.0 TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA
20.2 KAZ_Karakhanid
16.8 RUS_Catacomb



If i use the Ottoman samples it is coming like this:



Target: Turkish_Northwest:Turkish_Northwest9
Distance: 2.6571% / 0.02657070
58.6 TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA
22.8 TUR_Ottoman
18.6 RUS_Catacomb

Target: Turkish_Northwest:Turkish_Northwest8
Distance: 2.8862% / 0.02886202
49.0 TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA
36.4 TUR_Ottoman
14.6 RUS_Catacomb

Target: Turkish_Northwest:Turkish_Northwest7
Distance: 2.5127% / 0.02512725
50.4 TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA
35.2 TUR_Ottoman
14.4 RUS_Catacomb

Target: Turkish_Northwest:Turkish_Northwest5
Distance: 2.2733% / 0.02273336
52.8 TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA
33.6 TUR_Ottoman
13.6 RUS_Catacomb

Target: Turkish_Northwest:Turkish_Northwest4
Distance: 1.7687% / 0.01768710
46.6 TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA
40.0 TUR_Ottoman
13.4 RUS_Catacomb

Target: Turkish_Northwest:Turkish_Northwest3
Distance: 1.7274% / 0.01727421
53.0 TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA
34.0 TUR_Ottoman
13.0 RUS_Catacomb

Target: Turkish_Northwest:Turkish_Northwest2
Distance: 1.7926% / 0.01792576
52.4 TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA
29.6 TUR_Ottoman
18.0 RUS_Catacomb

Target: Turkish_Northwest:Turkish_Northwest10
Distance: 1.9245% / 0.01924547
46.2 TUR_Ottoman
40.6 TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA
13.2 RUS_Catacomb

Target: Turkish_Northwest:Turkish_Northwest1
Distance: 2.2396% / 0.02239605
52.6 TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA
33.0 TUR_Ottoman
14.4 RUS_Catacomb

Johnny ola
02-07-2021, 04:35 PM
Trying some random models with the samples from Balikesir.... using a sample with Balto-Slavic drift.

Some fits are not that bad,but some actually are.But i think its obvious that western Turks require something balkan in their models.


Target: Turkish_Balikesir:Balikesir17006
Distance: 2.5216% / 0.02521632
50.4 TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA
30.4 KAZ_Karakhanid
16.6 HUN_Avar_Szolad
2.6 Levant_Abel_IA

Target: Turkish_Balikesir:Balikesir16887
Distance: 1.9711% / 0.01971066
45.0 TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA
30.6 KAZ_Karakhanid
17.8 HUN_Avar_Szolad
6.6 Levant_Abel_IA

Target: Turkish_Balikesir:Balikesir16837
Distance: 2.8191% / 0.02819082
50.8 TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA
28.6 KAZ_Karakhanid
20.6 HUN_Avar_Szolad

Target: Turkish_Balikesir:Balikesir16790
Distance: 2.5385% / 0.02538499
52.6 TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA
27.6 KAZ_Karakhanid
15.4 HUN_Avar_Szolad
4.4 Levant_Abel_IA

Target: Turkish_Balikesir:Balikesir16675
Distance: 2.4989% / 0.02498857
49.8 TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA
26.4 KAZ_Karakhanid
18.0 HUN_Avar_Szolad
5.8 Levant_Abel_IA

Target: Turkish_Balikesir:Balikesir16653
Distance: 3.5276% / 0.03527597
48.8 TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA
31.4 KAZ_Karakhanid
13.2 HUN_Avar_Szolad
6.6 Levant_Abel_IA

Liquid
02-08-2021, 02:51 AM
For what it's worth, here's my best fit using the whole list provided by Eurogenes:

Target: Liquid_scaled
Distance: 0.7509% / 0.00750890 | R5P
38.0 TUR_Ikiztepe_LC (little known site in Samsun but I feel/think you must have some Anatolia component featuring)
23.8 Corded_Ware_DEU (can be replaced with Maykop or Sintashta or a combination of both for a more local origin for 'Slav' but I get the best fits with pure CW)
17.6 Levant_Megiddo_MLBA (??)
11.8 MNG_Late_Med (MNG_Early_Med_Uigur is probably more appropriate as the Turkic migration took some time and probably accelerated post-Ottoman/Seljuk)
8.8 RUS_Darkveti-Meshoko_En (appears to be a Chalcolithic culture in present day Georgia)

I've literally had no success in incorporating ancient populations from Iran for reasons I do not understand, this is where the Seljuks first appeared didn't they?

Liquid
02-08-2021, 04:39 AM
Does anyone know more about the origins of this Iron Age sample from Anatolia? How can he be modelled?

Could he be responsible for the Bronze Age collapse, which was probably accelerated by the availability of cutting-edge steel weaponry to the masses, developed somewhere in the Caucasus, and the disruption of the tin trade from Afghanistan, necessary for the production of Bronze weaponry? I'm not sure but I vaguely remember that there is evidence that various sites in Anatolia were razed to the ground and set on fire around this time too.... lots of big IFs I know.

43143

bovefex
02-08-2021, 09:18 AM
I've literally had no success in incorporating ancient populations from Iran for reasons I do not understand, this is where the Seljuks first appeared didn't they?

From what I know the Ottoman_1 sample in the spreadsheet (the second one seems to have been mixed with native anatolians) doesn’t differ all that much from the more central asian Turkic samples we have, which I think suggests that the Seljuks didn’t mix all that much in Iran and environs, but I am nowhere near an expert, so take what I am saying with a grain of salt.

bovefex
02-08-2021, 09:24 AM
Does anyone know more about the origins of this Iron Age sample from Anatolia? How can he be modelled?

Could he be responsible for the Bronze Age collapse, which was probably accelerated by the availability of cutting-edge steel weaponry to the masses, developed somewhere in the Caucasus, and the disruption of the tin trade from Afghanistan, necessary for the production of Bronze weaponry? I'm not sure but I vaguely remember that there is evidence that various sites in Anatolia were razed to the ground and set on fire around this time too.... lots of big IFs I know.

43143

As for this, if I remember correctly there was an older thread, probably in this sub-forum, in which someone said that this sample might have been from a later period, but that it might have collapsed into a similar layer as the Iron Age ones, in which case it might be a Seljuk or an Ottoman sample. I think it was Alkaevli (sorry if I got it wrong). Someone also suggested that it might have been a native mixed with a Cimmerian, who might have also had East Eurasian DNA and would probably have elevated levels of Steppe. The one who said this might have also been Alkaevli, but I unfortunately can’t remember.

Johnny ola
02-08-2021, 11:11 AM
For what it's worth, here's my best fit using the whole list provided by Eurogenes:

Target: Liquid_scaled
Distance: 0.7509% / 0.00750890 | R5P
38.0 TUR_Ikiztepe_LC (little known site in Samsun but I feel/think you must have some Anatolia component featuring)
23.8 Corded_Ware_DEU (can be replaced with Maykop or Sintashta or a combination of both for a more local origin for 'Slav' but I get the best fits with pure CW)
17.6 Levant_Megiddo_MLBA (??)
11.8 MNG_Late_Med (MNG_Early_Med_Uigur is probably more appropriate as the Turkic migration took some time and probably accelerated post-Ottoman/Seljuk)
8.8 RUS_Darkveti-Meshoko_En (appears to be a Chalcolithic culture in present day Georgia)

I've literally had no success in incorporating ancient populations from Iran for reasons I do not understand, this is where the Seljuks first appeared didn't they?

YOU cant use Ikitzepe to model yourself or any other population. Its too early. LATE COPPER AGE from Samsun area. YOU need samples From Bronze Age and Iron Age. The samples From Iron age Are garbage. Ikitzepe Btw Is quite west Asian admixed. It is CHG/Iran N than other Anatolian samples We have. But i have to say you make goood models using it especially For Trabzon Turks and Greeks. But, as i mention i wouldnt use such an old sample. I would prefer to play wirh EBA or LBA refrences.

Ajeje Brazorf
02-08-2021, 12:59 PM
YOU cant use Ikitzepe to model yourself or any other population. Its too early. LATE COPPER AGE from Samsun area. YOU need samples From Bronze Age and Iron Age. The samples From Iron age Are garbage. Ikitzepe Btw Is quite west Asian admixed. It is CHG/Iran N than other Anatolian samples We have. But i have to say you make goood models using it especially For Trabzon Turks and Greeks. But, as i mention i wouldnt use such an old sample. I would prefer to play wirh EBA or LBA refrences.

Moreover, Ikiztepe genomes are all very low coverage, shouldn't use.

DFSTFD
02-08-2021, 03:11 PM
Does anyone know more about the origins of this Iron Age sample from Anatolia? How can he be modelled?

Could he be responsible for the Bronze Age collapse, which was probably accelerated by the availability of cutting-edge steel weaponry to the masses, developed somewhere in the Caucasus, and the disruption of the tin trade from Afghanistan, necessary for the production of Bronze weaponry? I'm not sure but I vaguely remember that there is evidence that various sites in Anatolia were razed to the ground and set on fire around this time too.... lots of big IFs I know.

That sample is dated to the Hellenistic period in the paper, so a bit too late for these LBA events though as an aside, I recall Kaman-Kalehöyük where the sample is from being described as having a smoother transition during the particular period, but of course we see increased Phrygian presence there later on. Bovefex brought up the possibility of it being a later sample that intruded into a previous layer but I don't know if that's also based on something about its archaeology or just the fact that it has a good amount of ENA-related ancestry. That scenario would date it even later, naturally.

Here's an image of the populations it's shifted towards (https://i.imgur.com/hS9Yta6.png), compared to TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA, using the difference functions in Vahaduo.

In modelling it, it generally seems to prefer a combination of something Aegean-Anatolian-Caucasian + something from all sorts of mixed steppe populations from different cultural/archaeological contexts (maybe if that's more carefully disentangled, we can also tell if it's more likely to be later) and as such ends up being very similar to contemporary Anatolian Turkish populations too.

eolien
02-08-2021, 10:25 PM
I've literally had no success in incorporating ancient populations from Iran for reasons I do not understand, this is where the Seljuks first appeared didn't they?

Perhaps you missed your history classes at school :), but Seljuks were a dynasty like Ottomans not a tribe, clan etc.

Johnny ola
02-08-2021, 10:43 PM
Perhaps you missed your history classes at school :), but Seljuks were a dynasty like Ottomans not a tribe, clan etc.

Υou are wrong actually.Ottomans were a a beylik.They were a small beylik that later conquered balkans and later dominated much of anatolia. Seljuks were not a beylik.

Liquid
02-09-2021, 05:12 AM
YOU cant use Ikitzepe to model yourself or any other population. Its too early. LATE COPPER AGE from Samsun area. YOU need samples From Bronze Age and Iron Age. The samples From Iron age Are garbage. Ikitzepe Btw Is quite west Asian admixed. It is CHG/Iran N than other Anatolian samples We have. But i have to say you make goood models using it especially For Trabzon Turks and Greeks. But, as i mention i wouldnt use such an old sample. I would prefer to play wirh EBA or LBA refrences.

Do you have a set of ancient coordinates that can be used to model modern Turks, like a Lord of the Rings type list?

Liquid
02-09-2021, 05:15 AM
Perhaps you missed your history classes at school :), but Seljuks were a dynasty like Ottomans not a tribe, clan etc.

Besides the Seljuks link, the massive open border between Turkey and Iran, the history of Persian invasions, the Silk Road route, the fact Turks cluster together with modern Iranians etc should count for something, surely

bovefex
02-09-2021, 09:21 AM
Besides the Seljuks link, the massive open border between Turkey and Iran, the history of Persian invasions, the Silk Road route, the fact Turks cluster together with modern Iranians etc should count for something, surely

As I have mentioned before, the Ottoman sample we have (TUR_Ottoman:MA2195, the other seems mixed with native Anatolians) doesn't seem to differ all that much from the more Central Asian Turkic samples we have. Let's take a very quick and amateur model as an example:

Target / Distance / Iranian_Fars /KAZ_Karluk
TUR_Ottoman:MA2195/ 0.04556980 /1.8 / 98.2

As we can see, the Ottoman sample is almost the same as the Karluk sample, which means the Seljuks brought very little Iranian heritage with them, if any at all. As far as your others reasons go, I don't think those are enough reason for a genetic change. After all, even with major lingual and cultural shifts, genetic shifts sometimes never even occur. And the vast majority of Anatolia most definitely hasn't been Iranian in culture or language in the recent centuries.

As for the clustering with Iranians, Anatolian Turks also cluster with certain (North) Caucasian groups. This is probably to due a mix of Anatolians and Turkic Seljuks/Ottomans producing a result similar to the aforementioned groups. At least that's what I think.

altvred
02-09-2021, 10:19 AM
As I have mentioned before, the Ottoman sample we have (TUR_Ottoman:MA2195, the other seems mixed with native Anatolians) doesn't seem to differ all that much from the more Central Asian Turkic samples we have. Let's take a very quick and amateur model as an example:

Target / Distance / Iranian_Fars /KAZ_Karluk
TUR_Ottoman:MA2195/ 0.04556980 /1.8 / 98.2

As we can see, the Ottoman sample is almost the same as the Karluk sample, which means the Seljuks brought very little Iranian heritage with them, if any at all. As far as your others reasons go, I don't think those are enough reason for a genetic change. After all, even with major lingual and cultural shifts, genetic shifts sometimes never even occur. And the vast majority of Anatolia most definitely hasn't been Iranian in culture or language in the recent centuries.

As for the clustering with Iranians, Anatolian Turks also cluster with certain (North) Caucasian groups. This is probably to due a mix of Anatolians and Turkic Seljuks/Ottomans producing a result similar to the aforementioned groups. At least that's what I think.

There were also significant relatively recent population movements from the Caucuses into the Ottoman Empire, notably following the Russian conquest in the 19th century. I imagine this may have somewhat shifted the Turkish population more towards Caucasian groups, albeit not significantly.

bovefex
02-09-2021, 10:26 AM
There were also significant relatively recent population movements from the Caucuses into the Ottoman Empire, notably following the Russian conquest in the 19th century. I imagine this may have somewhat shifted the Turkish population more towards Caucasian groups, albeit not significantly.

True, but in that case the movements from the Balkans would have also had to shift the population. I think the Caucasian-shift might have had an effect on the genetic make-up of certain small towns and villages, but I can't imagine it doing much for the national average.

Ajeje Brazorf
02-09-2021, 11:22 AM
Do you have a set of ancient coordinates that can be used to model modern Turks, like a Lord of the Rings type list?

I don't know how much this will help you, but I will list the averages of these medium and high quality samples dated between 2000 and 800 BC:


ARM_Lchashen_MBA,0.102441,0.121864,-0.043369,-0.017119,-0.045547,-0.008367,-0.00235,-0.008769,-0.044177,-0.019499,0.012991,0.007793,-0.001933,-0.010597,-0.002986,0.003978,0.018775,-0.002407,-0.000377,0.005002,-0.000998,0.001978,-0.000739,0.00976,-0.002036
ARM_MBA,0.103579,0.1223715,-0.031678,-0.013243,-0.0350835,-0.0027885,0.00329,-0.0065765,-0.053585,-0.0188615,0.004141,0,-0.007656,0.00172,0.0139115,-0.000265,0.0008475,-0.003674,0.000566,-0.000125,0.005428,0.0012985,0.005423,-0.0007835,0.000958
Baltic_EST_BA,0.1343112,0.1245038,0.099032,0.11098 38,0.048809,0.0441206,0.0164978,0.0211378,-0.0058086,-0.052229,0.0012666,-0.0188234,0.0366598,0.039195,-0.0194896,-0.00358,0.0066494,0.0001014,-0.0042988,0.002201,0.0031942,-0.0048966,0.0096872,-0.0206052,7.18e-05
Baltic_LTU_BA,0.135449,0.129988,0.089755,0.089471, 0.038469,0.038208,0.016451,0.011999,-0.005727,-0.047017,-0.003573,-0.017085,0.017393,0.021744,-0.009772,-0.006762,-0.011213,0.002154,-0.001634,0.002626,-0.004367,-0.00272,-0.001356,-0.007591,0.008861
Bell_Beaker_NLD,0.12862,0.121864,0.064865,0.071383 ,0.026159,0.019522,0.004935,0.003231,-0.007567,-0.016583,-0.009581,-0.003597,-0.00892,-0.016652,0.02348,0.002121,-0.007693,-0.006081,0.000503,0.008004,0.003743,-0.00371,0.009367,0.013857,-0.004431
BGR_MLBA,0.125205,0.103584,0.050911,0.082688,0.002 77,0.031794,-0.00094,0.004846,-0.025361,-0.035718,-0.005846,-0.000599,-0.005203,-0.023671,0.029316,0.021082,0.009518,-0.001014,-0.001885,0.002501,-0.000749,-0.001607,0.005546,0.011086,0.000599
CHE_EBA,0.128051,0.1416665,0.055814,0.0243865,0.04 47775,0.010598,0.0041125,0.001154,0.0103285,0.0189 525,-0.0030855,0.0161105,-0.0176905,-0.01156,0.0118755,-0.004044,-0.009192,-0.0008235,0.0010055,-0.0041265,0.004929,0.007048,-0.0049915,-0.0086155,-0.002335
CHN_Upper_Yellow_River_LN,0.0163147,-0.4390473,0.0258957,-0.050711,0.017439,-0.0039973,0.008617,0.0033847,-0.0013637,0.0085653,-0.0882853,-0.010391,0.012636,-0.0002293,-0.006198,-0.0003093,-0.000869,-0.003505,-0.0068297,0.0019593,-4.17e-05,0.0167343,0.0017257,0.0003213,0.026265
CHN_Western_Liao_River_BA,0.021626,-0.452926,0.029415,-0.05814,0.018773,0,-0.001175,0.004615,-0.004295,0.009659,-0.067391,-3e-04,0.011298,-0.000963,-0.013165,-0.002784,0.005476,0.003801,0.002891,-0.009254,0.012478,-0.002473,0.006655,-0.000723,0.003233
CHN_Western_Liao_River_LN,0.015935,-0.444294,0.0115025,-0.0666995,0.045547,0.0136655,0.003055,0.004269,-0.013396,0.0099315,-0.0852535,-0.0096665,0.011298,-0.0020645,-0.007261,0.0057675,0.0059325,0.0027875,0.000126,-0.003314,0.01984,0.0072335,0.0120785,0.0051815,0.0 040715
CHN_Yellow_River_LBIA,0.0170735,-0.448356,0.011502,-0.0615315,0.0472395,0.0227295,0.0047,0.0049615,-0.013805,0.0042825,-0.079895,-0.0074185,0.006987,-0.0104595,-0.009161,-0.003514,-0.000456,0.0004435,-0.0002515,-0.006378,0.015972,0.0112525,0.0136805,-0.00241,0.001317
CHN_Yellow_River_LN,0.015366,-0.4473405,0.011125,-0.0650845,0.0586265,0.017152,0.0074025,0.0020765,-0.0091015,0.003007,-0.089963,-0.0113145,0.0142715,-0.009909,-0.012147,-0.0019225,0.0050195,0.00133,-0.0084215,-0.004502,0.0177185,0.0162605,0.0117085,0.0042775,0 .0189205
CMR_Shum_Laka_3000BP,-0.6129375,0.0528075,0.013765,0.0272935,0.000769,-0.001813,0.1482915,-0.1137645,0.00542,0.004374,-0.001056,-0.0400145,-0.025272,0.0019955,0.008279,-0.0068285,0.005802,0.016153,-0.0067245,0.0010005,-0.001934,-0.0020405,-0.00456,0.000482,-0.006586
Corded_Ware_Baltic,0.12862,0.118817,0.099937,0.117 573,0.054164,0.040718,0.008225,0.008077,0.013703,-0.034078,0.01429,-0.013938,0.030475,0.022983,0.001357,0.010077,0.006 389,-0.000887,0.002514,0.014132,0.011729,-0.005317,-0.008381,-0.027715,0.002395
CZE_Bilina_BA,0.127482,0.132019,0.064865,0.060401, 0.031698,0.018407,0.00329,0.008077,-0.001432,-0.006014,-0.002923,0.003297,-0.011596,-0.006193,0.018729,0.010209,-0.009257,0.002154,0.005405,0.009379,0.003244,0.011 376,-0.001602,0.000241,-0.003233
CZE_EBA,0.12862,0.12034,0.0633565,0.0721905,0.0243 125,0.028586,0.0029375,0.006461,0.000409,-0.0167655,0.002192,0.001049,-0.0032705,-0.0136935,0.0206975,0.0082865,-6.55e-05,-0.000443,0.003017,0.0070035,0.005615,-0.0069245,-0.003759,0.0037955,0.0020955
DEU_Halberstadt_LBA,0.12862,0.132019,0.058454,0.05 4587,0.032006,0.023985,0.00752,0.005077,0.004704,-0.005103,0.002111,0.002248,-0.014271,-0.015001,0.015744,0.017369,0.007562,-0.003801,0.000628,0.004752,0.00262,0.002968,0.0035 74,0.00723,0.002754
DEU_Lech_EBA,0.126799,0.1375026,0.055286,0.0377264 ,0.03773,0.010096,0.0032902,0.0010154,0.0047858,0. 0118088,0.0007794,0.0101008,-0.0161148,-0.0138174,0.0124046,0.0115884,0.0074318,-0.001292,0.0066872,0.0049774,0.0050912,-0.0002968,-0.0020706,0.0026752,-0.0016284
DEU_Lech_EBA_contam,0.135449,0.127957,0.04978,0.05 1034,0.029852,0.019243,0.005875,0,-0.000205,0.002734,-0.006171,0.012589,-0.013082,-0.020231,0.020494,0.006895,-0.004694,0.001774,0.005154,0.00963,0.002995,0.0045 75,-0.001849,-0.006386,-0.005149
DEU_Singen_EBA,0.1258882,0.1354716,0.0508356,0.033 269,0.0406846,0.0052432,-0.001786,0.000692,0.0129668,0.020957,-0.0071126,0.0062044,-0.0130822,-0.0147258,0.0133006,0.006497,0.0009648,0.0015454,0 .0033438,0.0004254,0.003344,0.0028194,-0.0048562,-0.0044824,-0.0018202
DEU_Unetice_EBA,0.129189,0.1244025,0.0652415,0.065 0845,0.0336985,0.023148,0.0031725,0.010384,-0.0093055,-0.022415,-0.00406,0.0028475,-0.00996,-0.011698,0.02314,0.0065635,-0.006063,-0.0023435,0.0018225,0.014007,0.008922,0.002226,-0.00037,0.008736,-0.0030535
England_CA_EBA,0.1242567,0.1303263,0.059208,0.0608 855,0.0339035,0.0218465,0.0025458,0.0051152,-0.0012613,-0.0018528,-0.005494,0.0069188,-0.0123885,-0.016446,0.0293382,0.0092593,-0.0032378,0.0008235,0.004064,0.007608,0.0070915,0. 0008038,-0.0011708,0.0017875,-0.002814
England_EMBA,0.125205,0.129988,0.060716,0.06137,0. 029236,0.020359,0.012691,0.002077,0.002659,-0.005103,-0.002273,0.003447,-0.010406,-0.01445,0.029587,-0.005834,-0.020601,0.008868,0.003017,0.001,0.002371,-0.001484,-0.008134,0.008435,0.003832
England_LBA,0.119514,0.116786,0.056945,0.05814,0.0 31698,0.018686,0.00235,-0.003461,0.004909,-0.00656,-0.006496,0.003447,-0.025718,-0.004817,0.019544,0.02148,0.00352,-0.000253,-0.000126,0.006128,0.005989,-0.00272,-0.001602,0.012291,-0.004311
England_MBA,0.1270132,0.1290916,0.0630678,0.059755 ,0.0341783,0.019916,0.0014929,0.0049274,0.0045958,-0.0013935,-0.0047379,0.0039671,-0.0111495,-0.0156566,0.0246771,0.0091564,-0.0059516,0.0030703,0.0009834,0.0039871,0.0046975, 0.0047133,-0.0006381,0.0058335,-0.0012045
GRC_Mycenaean,0.114961,0.157407,-0.006411,-0.068476,0.017234,-0.0283075,-0.0029375,-0.003,0.0025565,0.046106,0.003816,0.0155865,-0.014346,-0.0028215,-0.017915,-0.0038455,0.0228825,0.0070945,0.015587,-0.0016255,-0.0069255,0.001917,-0.0048065,0.002892,-0.003353
Greater_Antilles_Archaic,0.0523587,-0.3188763,0.115022,0.093993,-0.1114053,-0.0183137,-0.290943,-0.3457547,-0.0158847,-0.0193167,-0.002923,0.0037967,-0.0021803,0.02491,-0.0058813,0.0065853,0.0069103,-0.001478,0.003645,0.0061693,-0.0012063,0.00779,-0.0021777,-0.00245,-0.0051893
HRV_MBA,0.124636,0.149283,0.031301,-0.0098515,0.0386225,-0.0023705,-0.00564,-0.002423,0.006647,0.030069,8.15e-05,0.0106405,-0.0150145,-0.009152,-0.006786,0.0086185,0.014277,-0.0020905,0.0034565,-0.011318,-0.0035565,0.0037715,-0.00228,0.002952,-0.001796
HUN_LBA,0.125205,0.15436,0.060716,0.033592,0.06124 2,0.008646,0.00423,0.007615,0.014317,0.007836,-0.004547,-0.006594,0.001041,0.007432,-0.002579,-0.001591,0.010952,-0.002027,0.008547,0.004752,0.004617,0.005317,0.003 081,-0.013134,0.000239
HUN_Prescythian_IA,0.117238,0.084289,0.04186,0.027 132,-0.001846,0.004183,0.005875,0.001385,-0.014317,-0.014214,-0.004222,-0.001499,0.002825,-0.008395,0.012486,-0.003713,-0.019949,0.001394,0.013701,-0.003627,-0.005116,0.003091,0.002835,0.002892,-0.000718
Iberia_Central_BA,0.1229288,0.1501292,0.0578252,-0.0004307,0.0684743,-0.0076695,-0.004465,5e-04,0.0395413,0.0555213,-0.0026793,0.012414,-0.025322,-0.0210333,0.0063563,0.0106737,0.016863,-0.0005702,-0.0029748,0.0016882,0.0121037,-0.0009478,-0.007251,-0.0180948,0.0041712
Iberia_Formentera_MBA,0.120652,0.151314,0.048649,-0.002261,0.056934,-0.009203,-0.003995,0.004384,0.035792,0.058133,-0.001461,0.01079,-0.02438,-0.022845,0.004479,0.008884,0.012126,-0.001014,-0.003268,-0.002376,0.006114,0.000124,-0.000493,-0.01687,0.002275
Iberia_Menorca_LBA,0.122929,0.153345,0.054305,0.00 1615,0.062165,-0.002231,-0.00376,0.002308,0.035178,0.05212,-0.005521,0.013938,-0.026016,-0.016377,0.015065,0.008618,0.002738,-0.004814,-0.004274,-0.004502,-0.001497,0.002473,-0.003821,-0.016147,-0.000599
Iberia_North_BA,0.1238394,0.1545636,0.0550598,0.00 56848,0.0688128,-0.0034024,-0.0030552,0.0019844,0.0358734,0.0562744,-0.004287,0.0095614,-0.0213774,-0.0173954,0.0065688,0.0059666,0.0117348,0.00451,-0.0002262,-0.0026262,0.0098076,0.0044268,-0.0092188,-0.0220514,0.0035924
Iberia_Northeast_BA,0.1263438,0.1502982,0.0608579, 0.0031896,0.066897,-0.0059264,-0.0008225,-0.0004904,0.038834,0.055058,-0.0028212,0.0090484,-0.025644,-0.0184072,0.0007975,0.0107232,0.0113922,0.0003484, 0.0009271,0.0039394,0.0108089,0.0023186,-0.0131569,-0.0163879,0.0003441
Iberia_Southeast_BA,0.1252053,0.1577457,0.0550593,-0.0082903,0.0695513,-0.0091103,-0.0074417,0.0063843,0.0490857,0.0717403,-0.0019487,0.013638,-0.02775,-0.0202763,0.00475,0.007116,0.009344,0,0.0005447,-0.0025433,0.0089427,0.0021847,-0.0065733,-0.0248227,-0.0009977
Iberia_Southwest_BA,0.1200835,0.1497905,0.050534,-0.0134045,0.064166,-0.0133865,-0.0019975,0.0047305,0.046018,0.062416,-0.003735,0.012214,-0.022894,-0.013212,0.0059715,-0.0007955,-0.0037815,-0.003864,0.001571,0.003064,0.0146615,0.0007415,-0.00758,-0.0265095,0.002215
Iberia_Southwest_BA_Afr,0.103579,0.15436,0.043746,-0.005491,0.066782,-0.017849,-0.009635,0.001154,0.054403,0.054671,0.002923,0.004 046,-0.020664,-0.0139,0.008415,-0.007425,-0.00678,0.00114,-0.016089,-0.005253,0.002246,-0.005193,-0.008997,-0.02181,0.001916
IRL_BA,0.1263435,0.129988,0.0607165,0.0644385,0.02 96975,0.022172,0.0019975,0.006,0.002761,-0.0058315,-0.00138,0.0086925,-0.009737,-0.0165835,0.0229365,0.0146515,-0.003716,0.006968,0.0011315,0.0049395,0.006613,0.0 0643,0.00228,0.0110255,-0.0029335
IRN_Hajji_Firuz_IA,0.095611,0.111708,-0.069767,-0.036176,-0.047393,0.003626,-0.00235,-0.001846,-0.043155,-0.019499,0.003897,-0.002997,0.008771,0.002615,0.00095,0.009679,-0.010561,0.012922,0.006788,-0.003627,-0.003868,-0.013107,-0.004067,-0.004699,0.007664
IRN_Hasanlu_IA,0.09675,0.121864,-0.06939,-0.04199,-0.0437,-0.003904,0.002115,-0.004615,-0.033746,-0.014761,0.005684,0.001049,0.004757,-0.007707,0.003664,0.026916,0.009518,0.002534,0.006 034,-0.001376,-0.000873,-0.000618,0.000493,-0.003133,-0.001557
ITA_Proto-Villanovan,0.125205,0.138112,0.030547,-0.010982,0.023081,-0.011713,0.002115,-0.001846,0.006954,0.021139,0.008119,0.005845,-0.011596,-0.000826,-0.007465,-0.01432,-0.011604,0.005194,0.002765,-0.00988,-0.009733,0.001607,-0.002465,0.003976,-0.005508
ITA_Sardinia_EBA,0.1300432,0.181526,0.043746,-0.0535372,0.0847082,-0.0262855,-0.0092242,-0.002423,0.0557327,0.0994095,0.0008525,0.0170847,-0.0323338,-0.0133838,-0.0185598,-0.000597,0.0110175,0.0011085,0.003708,-0.008035,0.0010917,0.0026588,-0.0114622,-0.025335,0.001497
ITA_Sardinia_Nuragic,0.12874,0.1755797,0.0420389,-0.054791,0.080598,-0.0292249,-0.0033766,0.0007286,0.0590321,0.0968825,-0.0011794,0.016146,-0.0335425,-0.0133712,-0.014815,-0.0022959,0.0119129,0.0033673,0.0027984,-0.0096888,0.0027188,0.0026293,-0.0125065,-0.0287993,-0.0006617
ITA_Sardinia_Nuragic_contam,0.126344,0.166547,0.04 1483,-0.045866,0.076937,-0.02761,-0.003995,0.002077,0.053176,0.086015,-0.003573,0.014087,-0.03553,-0.016102,-0.015879,-0.002519,-0.001043,0.000887,0.00817,-0.007879,0.007986,0.002226,-0.016638,-0.024943,-0.00491
ITA_Sicily_EBA,0.126344,0.160454,0.029415,-0.042636,0.060319,-0.023427,-0.003055,-0.000462,0.026588,0.059773,-0.001137,0.008393,-0.017542,-0.006468,-0.014658,-0.016839,-0.004433,0.00038,0.006536,-0.007379,-0.004866,0.000618,-0.00912,-0.003976,0.000718
ITA_Sicily_LBA,0.122929,0.1695933,0.0113137,-0.062985,0.0478033,-0.0259367,-0.007755,-0.004615,0.026929,0.0612923,-0.0018947,0.01109,-0.020416,-0.003349,-0.021082,-0.015867,0.000782,0.0023223,0.0055727,-0.0066697,-0.0083603,-0.0002883,-0.003574,-0.0129337,0.0011573
ITA_Sicily_MBA,0.119514,0.166547,0.0056565,-0.0708985,0.0495475,-0.02524,0.0027025,-0.0036925,0.028838,0.0722565,0.0016235,0.0164855,-0.024752,-0.00289,-0.022801,-0.005038,0.012126,-0.00076,0.004588,-0.0097545,-0.0043675,0.000495,-0.004437,-0.0129535,0.0020955
ITA_Villanovan,0.12862,0.156392,0.042238,-0.024225,0.052933,-0.008367,-0.001645,-0.005307,0.023725,0.040274,0.006008,0.006894,-0.018285,-0.019405,-0.003529,0.008751,0.025686,0.002914,0.004651,0.004 252,0.00574,0.006059,-0.006286,-0.010604,-0.002515
JPN_Jomon,0.012141,-0.341895,-0.0548083,0.0136737,0.0387763,0.0099473,-0.0034467,-0.0049997,0.023043,0.019985,-0.052722,-0.004246,0.0098613,-0.0082573,-0.0221677,-0.0151593,0.0076927,0.0070103,0.0080867,-0.0065447,0.0655927,-0.0444323,0.0107637,0.0107643,-0.10063
KAZ_Ak_Moustafa_MLBA1,0.127482,0.114755,0.052797,0 .072352,0.017849,0.037092,0.000705,0.001154,-0.009613,-0.024055,-0.005684,-0.004646,0.003271,-0.008533,0.026601,0.006629,-0.02373,0.004054,-0.002765,-0.004627,0.001373,0.005317,0.001356,0.004579,0.007 784
KAZ_Aktogai_MLBA,0.1238396,0.1092712,0.057247,0.08 03624,0.006832,0.0277774,0.0055462,0.0020308,-0.0176302,-0.028356,-0.0004872,-0.0001198,0.0004164,-0.0231206,0.0219864,0.0119594,-0.007171,-0.001723,-0.0012318,0.0021012,-0.0054654,0.00413,-0.0005918,0.0059282,-0.0022992
KAZ_Bylkyldak_MLBA,0.121791,0.11577,0.050534,0.077 52,0.007386,0.026774,-0.000705,0.004846,-0.010022,-0.030251,0.003573,0.002847,-0.000595,-0.032617,0.023887,0.024794,0.005867,0.004054,-0.006788,0.008754,-0.001497,-0.001978,-0.004067,0.000482,-0.001437
KAZ_Chanchar_LBA,0.125205,0.1046,0.061094,0.086564 ,0.007386,0.029284,0.006345,0.00923,-0.023111,-0.027335,0.001949,0,0.003419,-0.022845,0.020222,0.018297,0.001173,-0.000127,0.001006,-0.004627,0.007736,0.000618,0.006409,0.006989,-0.00455
KAZ_Dali_MLBA,0.1217903,0.0748107,0.050157,0.08990 17,-0.0118993,0.0292837,-0.0054833,0.0030767,-0.023452,-0.0416713,0.0021113,-0.002048,-0.0030227,-0.023625,0.0256963,0.004331,-0.0118647,0.0048567,0.0018853,0.0035433,-0.0046587,0.0037097,0.0061217,0.0040567,-0.003433
KAZ_Georgievsky_LBA,0.12862,0.097491,0.056568,0.10 013,-0.009232,0.028447,-0.00094,0.001385,-0.031906,-0.04319,0.005034,-0.005995,-0.003717,-0.026286,0.034337,0.013922,-0.014733,-0.000633,-0.002514,-0.000125,-0.007362,0.003586,0.005176,0.015303,0.001557
KAZ_Kairan_MLBA,0.1214113,0.106969,0.061219,0.0775 2,0.012002,0.030957,0.003525,0.0036153,-0.0173847,-0.0280037,-0.0055213,-0.003197,-0.003419,-0.0221573,0.023344,0.0064083,-0.0097787,-0.0004223,-0.0019273,-0.0007083,-0.005241,0.0018133,0.0002463,0.0011247,0.0012373
KAZ_Kairan_MLBA_o,0.103579,-0.002539,0.062602,0.0973845,-0.035699,0.0338855,-0.00188,-0.015461,-0.029349,-0.0519375,-0.004547,-0.006519,0.006541,-0.030896,0.022122,0.0066295,-0.0131035,-0.001267,-0.000754,-0.004377,-0.011979,0.0076045,0.0177475,0.003133,-0.005149
KAZ_Karagash_MLBA,0.12862,0.1096775,0.063922,0.083 334,0.0126175,0.0337455,0.0094005,0.0103845,-0.018612,-0.0345335,-0.0015425,-0.0008995,0.0009665,-0.0278685,0.021851,0.0170375,0.0056065,-0.001457,-0.003331,0.0040645,-0.001934,0.004637,-0.0053,0.0040365,-0.0079635
KAZ_Katon_Karagay_LBA,0.117238,0.088351,0.020365,0 .053618,-0.014464,0.025937,-0.00047,0.000231,-0.031497,-0.024966,0.001949,0.001049,-0.005054,-0.024222,0.020222,0.012729,-0.012256,-0.008995,-0.000377,0.002126,-0.002745,0.001978,0.003328,0.000602,0.002874
KAZ_Kyzlbulak_MLBA1,0.12862,0.1046,0.052043,0.0823 65,0.000615,0.034582,0.000235,0.000462,-0.016975,-0.032438,0.006008,-0.002098,-0.003717,-0.021607,0.02538,0.009414,-0.006258,-0.004307,0.001885,0.002876,0.002246,0.008656,0.007 025,0.006989,-0.003473
KAZ_Kyzlbulak_MLBA2,0.113823,0.060932,0.018102,0.0 87533,-0.049855,0.031236,0.002585,-0.011769,-0.03661,-0.046288,0.001949,-0.002398,0.003122,-0.037709,0.026737,0.019358,0.008475,-0.006968,-0.002765,-0.00075,-0.009358,0.00136,0.010353,0.011929,-0.001197
KAZ_Lisakovskiy_MLBA_Alakul,0.129758,0.110693,0.05 6568,0.07106,0.017849,0.031515,0.007285,0.003231,-0.012271,-0.032438,-0.003085,-0.005695,-0.002825,-0.013212,0.025108,-0.001856,-0.034421,0.003674,-0.003142,-0.000625,-0.007736,0.004946,-0.007025,0.010965,0.001437
KAZ_Maitan_MLBA_Alakul,0.1237421,0.1193973,0.05225 81,0.0740131,0.0116943,0.0298413,0.0074193,0.00435 17,-0.0139953,-0.0255391,-0.0028999,0.0004711,-0.004651,-0.0209581,0.024158,0.0095464,-0.006184,-0.0008146,-0.0011671,0.001197,-0.0050624,0.0016603,-0.0029229,0.0034083,-0.0047384
KAZ_Maitan_MLBA_Alakul_o,0.112685,0.0462065,0.0544 94,0.1185415,-0.0352375,0.0355585,-0.0096355,-0.0151145,-0.0334395,-0.057222,0.005521,-0.008542,0.004014,-0.036883,0.0273475,0.013392,-0.00691,0.0025335,-0.0053425,0.0050025,-0.024332,0.00507,0.0118935,0.008736,-0.0037125
KAZ_Molaly_LBA,0.094473,-0.010155,0.012822,0.050388,-0.041546,0.016176,-0.002115,-0.008538,-0.02802,-0.03262,-0.005846,0.003297,-0.0055,-0.017478,0.015201,0.008618,-0.005998,-0.000633,-0.000754,-0.000125,-0.008235,0.002102,0.004683,-0.003012,0.006706
KAZ_Mys_MLBA,0.1217905,0.0913975,0.0549652,0.08761 38,-0.0019235,0.0273313,0.0035838,5.78e-05,-0.0211173,-0.0383608,-0.0026388,-0.0002998,0.0027503,-0.0260107,0.0238865,0.0099775,-0.01105,-0.0045607,-0.0057507,-0.0012822,-0.0051475,0.0013602,0.000801,0.0081335,-0.0052688
KAZ_Oy_Dzhaylau_MLBA,0.1252054,0.0893666,0.0593588 ,0.0869518,-0.0009232,0.0307336,0.0023972,0.0027694,-0.0146848,-0.0332764,0.0032478,-0.0012886,0.0007136,-0.0271944,0.0233712,0.0182972,-0.0032334,-0.0026858,-0.0010306,0.0009004,-0.005715,0.0029182,0.0050778,0.0078564,-0.0039998
KAZ_Satan_MLBA_Alakul,0.119514,0.085304,0.078064,0 .096577,-0.001231,0.042949,-0.00141,-0.003461,-0.016566,-0.04319,-0.000974,-0.002398,0.005649,-0.023121,0.019815,-0.00305,-0.028815,0.002407,-0.005028,-5e-04,-0.006239,0.000247,0.003451,0.001807,-0.004431
KAZ_Shoendykol_MLBA_Fedorovo,0.1221703,0.094783,0. 0599623,0.0793503,0.0043087,0.028447,0.0006267,-0.001923,-0.014794,-0.0335313,-0.0021107,0.001499,-0.0030723,-0.0258273,0.0247917,0.0171037,-0.0006087,-0.0003797,-0.0011313,0.0007503,-0.011355,0.0035033,0.001479,0.008997,-0.0011573
KAZ_Solyanka_MLBA,0.126344,0.123895,0.055437,0.088 825,0.011387,0.027889,0.011516,0.006231,-0.011658,-0.028976,-0.000487,0.004496,-0.010406,-0.029589,0.011943,0.005701,-0.01369,0.009248,-0.003897,0.005002,-0.002745,0.008037,-0.008627,0.01217,-0.003353
KAZ_Taldysay_MLBA1,0.120652,0.098506,0.059962,0.08 9148,-0.001231,0.034861,0.00423,-0.000923,-0.018203,-0.039727,-0.000162,-0.003747,0.004014,-0.020643,0.034066,0.012596,-0.01356,-0.002914,0.001006,-0.003377,-0.001373,0.00371,-0.000493,0.001084,-0.006107
KAZ_Taldysay_MLBA2,0.104717,0.051792,0.020742,0.06 4277,-0.037853,0.023706,0.009165,0.001615,-0.033542,-0.027335,-0.005196,0.002398,0.009514,-0.020231,0.02253,0.026651,-0.000522,0.003041,0.001885,0.006128,-0.006613,0.003957,-0.005423,0.009519,-0.007185
KAZ_Tasbas_IA,0.095611,-0.040621,0.033941,0.040698,-0.048009,0.018965,-0.009165,0.000462,-0.02577,-0.036994,-0.001624,-0.002847,0.003271,-0.029314,0.012215,-0.000796,-0.01343,-0.004181,-0.007416,0.002626,-0.02271,-0.002844,0.002342,-0.006386,-0.002754
KAZ_Zevakinskiy_LBA,0.1052863,-0.005416,0.052294,0.0829572,-0.0361093,0.0187787,-0.0053658,-0.0058843,-0.0207592,-0.0380873,0.0014612,-0.0007493,0.0050543,-0.0328228,0.0185485,0.0121982,-0.003542,-2.1e-05,0.0042528,0.0028763,-0.0150567,0.0074192,0.0076003,0.0038557,-0.0078832
KAZ_Zevakinskiy_MLBA,0.10927,0.019295,0.053551,0.0 76228,-0.035699,0.023985,-0.00517,-0.006231,-0.024134,-0.038087,0.010555,-0.001499,0.001338,-0.036332,0.019679,0.01485,-0.002217,-0.003041,-0.007668,-0.002126,-0.00861,0.012242,0.008997,0,-0.008742
KEN_Kakapel_3900BP,-0.546351,0.04773,-0.004525,0.019703,0,-0.007251,0.109515,-0.098073,0.069129,-0.064512,-0.008607,0.023529,-0.022596,-0.009909,0.011808,-0.016043,0.014864,0.030279,-0.003771,-0.009254,-0.00861,-0.004822,-0.003944,-0.005061,0.003832
KEN_LuKENHill_3500BP,-0.303908,0.09546,-0.027907,-0.08075,0.002154,-0.041555,-0.002115,-0.00923,0.122919,-0.086198,-0.006333,-0.007044,-0.005054,0.001101,0.031623,-0.03023,0.007562,0.005321,0.003268,-0.01038,-0.005865,-0.001855,0.000986,0.001205,0.005149
KEN_Pastoral_N,-0.294802,0.100537,-0.028661,-0.075905,0.005847,-0.041973,-0.0149235,0.000231,0.1251685,-0.0814595,-0.0043035,-0.0071935,-0.0031215,-0.0067435,0.02029,-0.019623,0.021579,0.0034205,0.0040225,-0.003064,-0.002745,0.0026585,0.002773,-0.0088565,-0.0007185
LAO_LN_BA,0.005691,-0.40215,-0.083721,-0.034561,0.15049,0.078089,-0.002585,-0.012692,-0.006136,-0.018588,0.089801,0.004346,-0.012785,0.010184,0.003393,-0.005701,-0.002477,0.0019,-0.00088,0.026388,-0.016845,0.02201,-0.011955,0.001325,0.039038
Levant_Abel_IA,0.087644,0.149283,-0.05506,-0.100776,-0.014156,-0.032072,-0.002115,-0.006231,0.012476,0.007654,0.011205,-0.003297,0.01888,0.003716,0.002443,0.010475,0.0033 9,0.008235,-0.001006,-0.003252,0.005366,0.009027,-0.002835,0.000482,-0.004071
Levant_Ashkelon_IA2,0.080814,0.145221,-0.066373,-0.101422,-0.021542,-0.029562,-0.003055,-0.012923,0.003272,0.002005,0.012179,-0.008393,0.019475,0.003303,0.001086,0.010872,-0.00339,0.001394,0.007668,-0.003627,0.006988,0.001731,0,0.000241,0.003473
Levant_Ashkelon_LBA,0.093335,0.149283,-0.060339,-0.0969,-0.020004,-0.025937,0.00517,-0.008077,0.002454,0.019681,0.006008,-0.008542,0.009812,-0.001651,-0.011943,0.003315,-0.005346,-0.006714,-0.002765,-0.005378,0.004492,0.002968,-0.013064,-0.001325,-0.00479
Levant_Baqah_BA,0.0878834,0.1485345,-0.0603791,-0.1045334,-0.0107225,-0.0376063,-0.0065678,-0.0088053,0.0144996,0.0092749,0.0107946,-0.0110979,0.0240361,0.0017892,-0.0082361,0.0131682,0.000343,0.0030272,0.003804,0. 0068126,0.0047547,0.0066382,-0.0052996,0.0009639,-0.0027164
Levant_Hazor_MLBA,0.084988,0.151314,-0.064865,-0.1020683,-0.0106687,-0.0403463,-0.0060317,-0.0128457,0.0145893,0.0075323,0.0086607,-0.0108403,0.0207133,0.0021103,-0.0085957,0.0107397,-0.008388,0.0043917,0.002933,0.0077953,0.0061143,0. 005317,-0.001438,-0.0017273,-0.0017163
Levant_Megiddo_IA,0.084229,0.150298,-0.060716,-0.091409,-0.014464,-0.044623,-0.00517,-0.005077,0.011658,0.006014,0.012179,-0.007343,0.019177,0.006193,-0.002307,0.002254,-0.026207,0.005828,0.00729,-0.005753,0.001622,-0.002226,-0.006162,-0.000843,-0.005987
Levant_Megiddo_MLBA,0.0847544,0.1456895,-0.0637334,-0.0984904,-0.0139669,-0.0402889,-0.0034527,-0.0061773,0.0133728,0.0078641,0.0107302,-0.0104215,0.0238429,0.0011962,-0.0055019,0.0087408,-0.0009328,0.0048726,0.0038966,0.0075325,0.0048088, 0.006487,-0.0054228,-0.0032812,-0.0021554
Levant_Megiddo_MLBA_o1,0.095611,0.127957,-0.033187,-0.037791,-0.022773,-0.005857,-0.001175,-0.007384,-0.018407,-0.004738,0.008931,-0.001349,0.009068,0.003165,0.00095,-0.002254,-0.015385,0.004687,0.003771,-0.002251,0.004991,0.008779,0,-0.003374,0.000359
Levant_Shadud_MLBA,0.080814,0.149283,-0.046009,-0.103683,-0.012618,-0.036256,-0.00564,-0.008769,0.00859,0.014579,0.01088,-0.007044,0.01665,0.004542,-0.012215,0.012198,0.002477,0.008742,0.006285,0.013 506,0.015348,0.013973,-0.013557,-0.001205,-0.004431
Levant_Sidon_MBA,0.0812696,0.1468454,-0.0613196,-0.0979336,-0.0105248,-0.0389334,-0.0047942,-0.0065998,0.0114534,0.0101686,0.0104904,-0.0097712,0.0215854,0.005505,-0.0075734,0.0065234,-0.0001562,-0.0011906,0.0015086,0.004252,0.0042674,0.007543,-0.0012572,0.0015906,-0.0005028
MDA_Cimmerian,0.0967495,-0.0177715,0.0526085,0.0553945,-0.024158,0.009064,0.004465,0.0006925,-0.015646,-0.0280645,-0.006008,-0.002698,-0.0008175,-0.01968,0.0221225,0.0066295,-0.0080835,0.0092485,-0.0073535,0.0003125,-0.0112925,0.0092125,0.0016025,0.0097605,-0.0058675
MNG_Altai_MLBA,0.085367,-0.12491,0.058831,0.052649,-0.038469,0.003068,-0.00705,-0.006692,-0.011453,-0.024055,-0.012504,-3e-04,0.00446,-0.023258,0.011401,0.012596,-0.000652,-0.003041,0.005028,0.014507,-0.017469,0.001855,-0.000246,0.010242,-0.001078
MNG_BA,0.053497,-0.327508,0.085418,0.022933,-0.083554,-0.027889,-0.0043475,0.0020765,-0.003579,-0.0048295,-0.010718,-0.0039715,0.005649,-0.0275245,0.003393,0.0068945,-0.003325,-0.004307,-0.002137,0.010943,-0.033628,0.007481,-0.001048,-0.006868,-0.005688
MNG_Center_West_LBA_4,0.0455293,-0.3479204,0.0830797,0.0123386,-0.0776453,-0.0294788,0.000564,0.0037385,0.0023317,-0.0042096,-0.0195029,-0.0041214,0.0041328,-0.0181524,0.0056594,0.0015248,-0.0027249,-0.0024704,0.0013952,0.0146321,-0.0302715,0.0031654,-0.0091328,-0.0028196,-0.0015926
MNG_Center_West_LBA_5,0.0910585,-0.0766725,0.0529855,0.0502265,-0.0287745,0.013108,-0.0008225,0.0010385,-0.0150325,-0.026333,-0.01429,-0.0062945,-0.004534,-0.0218135,0.020901,-0.0023205,-0.0207965,-0.000887,0,-6.25e-05,-0.014724,0.006801,-0.0072715,0.007591,-0.002634
MNG_EIA_2,0.093335,-0.07718,0.055814,0.05814,-0.035083,0.011992,-0.00141,0.000692,-0.008385,-0.018224,-0.004547,0.003897,0.002527,-0.016515,0.02348,-0.005304,-0.015646,-0.00038,0.003771,0.002501,-0.013102,0.002597,-0.004314,0.006748,-0.001197
MNG_EIA_8,0.029594,-0.44074,0.081835,-0.027132,-0.075706,-0.043507,0.014101,0.017076,0.012476,0.015308,-0.036537,-0.001499,-0.00773,0.003853,0.0019,0,-0.004042,0.00038,0.001006,0.022511,-0.033815,0.004328,-0.026252,-0.004699,0.007664
MNG_Khovsgol_BA,0.0479808,-0.3330937,0.0813422,0.0202496,-0.0764165,-0.0283612,-0.0030188,-0.0044198,0.0013844,-0.0044858,-0.0187622,-0.0040002,0.0030076,-0.0199763,0.0061181,0.0018562,-0.0031092,9.6e-06,0.0020015,0.0126599,-0.0325482,0.0075238,-0.0082481,-0.0047087,0.0002211
MNG_Khovsgol_BA_o1,0.027318,-0.412305,0.07467,-0.020349,-0.070167,-0.035977,0.010575,0.021691,0.011453,0.016766,-0.043682,-0.010041,0.008474,-0.001789,0.000271,0.000928,-0.000391,-0.000253,0.002891,0.021635,-0.027452,0.001855,-0.008874,-0.005784,0.010538
MNG_Mongun_Taiga_LBA_1,0.05805,-0.300597,0.087115,0.04199,-0.094171,-0.021753,-0.015981,-0.009461,-0.011453,-0.01549,0.005521,-0.006294,0.008771,-0.022708,0.011265,0.012331,-0.006258,-0.007728,0.005656,0.012506,-0.041427,0.01014,0.003204,0.00241,-0.002515
MNG_Mongun_Taiga_LBA_3,0.0861263,-0.1056147,0.053551,0.0425283,-0.01549,0.016083,0.002115,0.003923,-0.0072943,-0.0179807,-0.0177543,-0.0075433,0.0041623,-0.0219737,0.010993,0.0064967,-0.0050413,-0.0028297,-0.0010893,0.0044603,-0.0110223,0.00136,-0.0053407,0.008274,-0.004231
MNG_Munkhkhairkhan_MBA_1,0.048944,-0.330555,0.0906975,0.041667,-0.0901705,-0.029423,-0.011398,-0.009692,0.0002045,-0.0141235,-0.0045465,-0.004646,0.004311,-0.0322725,0.00604,0.0035135,-0.004303,-0.0052575,6.3e-05,0.011443,-0.0359365,0.003091,-0.0051765,-0.004579,-0.001856
MNG_Munkhkhairkhan_MBA_2,0.071709,-0.219354,0.043746,0.047158,-0.074168,0.00251,-0.012456,-0.008307,-0.019021,-0.033167,-0.023871,-0.007793,0.00773,-0.02202,0.009365,0.000796,-0.005346,-0.004814,0.004651,0.00075,-0.026578,0.010387,-0.007518,0.004458,-0.000359
MNG_Slab_Grave_EIA_1,0.0291064,-0.4366776,0.0867379,-0.0273166,-0.0743876,-0.0478497,0.0151751,0.0230429,0.0128851,0.0169217,-0.0337071,-0.0011774,-0.0007646,-0.0021037,-0.0011633,-0.0024057,-0.0019186,-0.0021719,0.0011493,0.015847,-0.0254551,-0.0013249,-0.0214453,-0.0039936,0.0021213
MNG_Ulaanzukh_LBA_2,0.0241873,-0.439724,0.0723128,-0.0351262,-0.0616265,-0.0411362,0.0113392,0.017826,0.0113512,0.0125288,-0.0466052,-0.0042337,0.0057235,-0.0022362,-0.0002038,-0.000431,-0.0011738,0.0006968,0.003394,0.019009,-0.027982,0.0047915,-0.0182712,-0.0075007,0.0074842
NLD_BA,0.127482,0.12948,0.0669385,0.0663765,0.0281 59,0.0174305,0.006815,0.0043845,-0.002045,-0.0087475,-0.0077945,0.004796,-0.014123,-0.0217445,0.029112,0.0100105,0.0036505,-6.3e-05,0.00132,0.0106925,0.0023085,-0.002164,0.001602,0.005603,-0.0001195
NPL_Chokhopani_2700BP,0.012521,-0.410274,-0.011691,-0.031331,0.017542,0.011435,0.00658,0.011999,0.0100 22,0.021139,-0.081194,-0.006444,0.010109,-0.004679,-0.011401,0,0.011213,-0.001267,-0.009302,0.009379,0.004991,0.029306,0.004314,0.003 615,0.031734
PAK_Aligrama_IA,0.055773,-0.046714,-0.136518,0.080427,-0.09294,0.046854,0.00235,0.005077,-0.011249,-0.005103,-0.008931,0.002847,0.003122,-0.013487,0.012622,0.002254,-0.006519,-0.002787,0.007793,-0.011255,0.007362,-0.010263,0.003697,-0.010363,0.010777
PAK_Barikot_IA,0.0717085,0.015233,-0.1021995,0.060078,-0.084785,0.0432285,0.0066975,-0.002192,-0.0298605,-0.01467,-0.0086875,0.00045,-0.005426,-0.0056425,0.016083,0.0088835,-0.01017,-0.0039905,-0.002074,-0.012256,0.001061,-0.0073575,0.005916,0.000241,0.0059875
PAK_Butkara_IA,0.0660173,0.0057547,-0.1058453,0.0650307,-0.0815533,0.0425773,0.00517,-0.0015383,-0.0173847,-0.0180413,-0.0090937,0.0014987,-0.0010903,-0.0120193,0.006062,0.0194467,0.007084,-0.000718,-0.0016343,-0.013048,0.0050327,-0.0015663,-0.000411,-0.0051813,0.0042313
PAK_Gogdara_IA,0.070001,-0.0071085,-0.106348,0.069122,-0.0817075,0.04532,0.00188,-0.0008075,-0.014521,-0.016219,-0.0010555,-0.0026975,-0.0032705,-0.0016515,0.008075,0.010541,-0.0079535,0,-0.002137,-0.010755,0.001435,-0.0040805,0.0019715,-0.009158,-0.001976
PAK_Katelai_IA,0.0675516,-0.0013687,-0.1123164,0.0702033,-0.0801889,0.0423793,0.0032185,0.0005217,-0.0172511,-0.0156881,-0.005627,7.17e-05,-0.0009566,-0.0095139,0.0114418,0.00995,-0.0007653,0.0005122,0.0003552,-0.0084552,0.0003526,-0.0064352,0.002465,-0.0043744,0.0033738
PAK_Loebanr_IA,0.0674127,-0.0006552,-0.1115912,0.0670277,-0.0821294,0.0435338,0.0032825,0.0008635,-0.0179387,-0.0145318,-0.0058407,0.001315,-0.0033569,-0.0066503,0.0118734,0.0116208,-0.0029357,0.0011115,0.0011556,-0.0102751,-0.0020167,-0.0065537,0.0005605,-0.0063981,0.0038745
PAK_Loebanr_IA_o,0.086506,0.042652,-0.05506,0.067507,-0.058165,0.034304,0.00188,-0.005077,-0.030883,-0.033167,0.003573,-0.001649,-0.001784,-0.017616,0.019544,0.030496,0.006389,0.003674,-0.00993,-0.02101,-0.006364,-0.007666,0.008381,-0.000723,0.004071
PAK_Udegram_IA,0.0690182,0.0048929,-0.1069307,0.0680943,-0.0801548,0.0412759,0.0009614,0.0053285,-0.0208428,-0.0160367,-0.0033659,0.000913,-0.0013785,-0.0107096,0.0136092,0.0135482,-0.0002253,-0.001405,-0.0009713,-0.0104027,-0.0040724,-0.0054184,0.0032492,-0.004327,0.0039516
PER_Cuncaicha_3300BP_contam,0.059188,-0.299581,0.120301,0.087856,-0.116329,-0.013666,-0.291648,-0.346832,-0.017385,-0.015855,0.003897,-0.00015,0.001933,0.019818,-0.003393,0.004773,-0.000782,-0.003547,0.006788,0.002626,0.005366,0.006059,-0.000739,0.001687,0.002754
PER_Lauricocha_3500BP,0.048944,-0.321923,0.11653,0.100453,-0.112944,-0.021196,-0.307864,-0.360677,-0.011044,-0.016037,-0.002923,-0.001798,-0.005946,0.027525,-0.01045,0.006895,0.0103,-0.003167,0.004525,-0.000875,-0.000624,0.002844,-0.007272,-0.007109,-0.00491
POL_EBA,0.124067,0.114755,0.060339,0.079781,0.0200 04,0.029284,0.000705,0.002538,-0.01718,-0.034625,0.001949,-0.00045,0.003568,-0.000688,0.019001,0.014717,-0.000391,-0.000253,0.00352,5e-04,0.010107,0.004081,0.007518,-0.001566,-0.003353
RUS_Baikal_BA,0.042399,-0.3648288,0.1069138,0.0253555,-0.1065582,-0.049991,-0.0062275,-0.005192,0.00588,-0.0063783,0.0126258,-0.0002997,0.0007063,-0.0337863,0.0069555,-0.0016573,-0.0072688,-6.35e-05,0.0119412,0.0188528,-0.0456695,0.014591,0.0087815,-0.0121702,-0.0129028
RUS_Bolshoy_Oleni_Ostrov,0.0912862,-0.1407524,0.1197736,0.1070428,-0.0612422,-0.000781,-0.003948,-9.22e-05,-0.0002046,-0.0455588,0.0327052,-0.0107904,0.0223586,-0.0497092,-0.0029044,0.008751,-0.0031294,0.0016974,-0.0029664,0.0025012,0.0020212,0.006331,0.0064828,-0.0131822,0.0005508
RUS_Bolshoy_Oleni_Ostrov_o,0.080814,-0.207168,0.120301,0.085272,-0.076322,-0.010598,0.003055,0.001846,0.002659,-0.03991,0.042708,-0.008692,0.019772,-0.04748,-0.015065,0.001193,0.000913,0.003547,-0.00176,-5e-04,0.000374,0.009274,0.000739,-0.009399,0.003233
RUS_Karasuk,0.0998798,-0.0271655,0.0692015,0.0713022,-0.0279285,0.0142932,-0.0059337,-0.0001155,-0.0084363,-0.0307977,8.15e-05,-0.0034095,0.0010777,-0.0391538,0.021987,0.0152807,-0.0004562,-0.0001583,0.003111,0.0055652,-0.0171885,0.0108195,0.0010782,0.0082238,-0.008502
RUS_Karasuk_o,0.044391,-0.349342,0.099183,0.031008,-0.108636,-0.045738,-0.00329,0.005538,0.000818,-0.015672,0.015265,-0.003447,0.001338,-0.032617,-0.001357,-0.005038,-0.011083,0.002154,0.006411,0.018634,-0.050785,0.01694,0.010969,-0.018677,-0.014969
RUS_Krasnoyarsk_MLBA,0.1248552,0.1004593,0.0588308 ,0.0822159,0.0037639,0.0291548,0.0035612,0.0029111 ,-0.0151504,-0.0322979,-0.0003498,-0.0004267,-0.003019,-0.0231948,0.0213811,0.0099953,-0.0054963,-5.84e-05,-0.0001644,-0.0006158,-0.0080819,0.0040329,0.0030906,0.0076748,-0.0029015
RUS_Krasnoyarsk_MLBA_o,0.102441,-0.076165,0.094657,0.094639,-0.053241,-0.001116,-0.004465,0.000462,-0.006749,-0.036994,0.025495,-0.013038,0.010704,-0.044039,0.011265,-0.000265,-0.013299,0,0.009553,-0.003502,-0.003119,0.006801,0.005423,0.00482,-0.003233
RUS_Magadan_BA,0.043822,-0.3457875,0.1010685,0.0247095,-0.0912475,-0.0352795,-0.039952,-0.041421,0.0021475,-0.0060135,0.0199735,-0.002997,0.00223,-0.0164455,-0.0240905,-0.0130605,-0.0049545,0.0141895,0.0346925,0.0180715,0.02689,-0.051996,0.0105375,0.0233765,0.0225725
RUS_Mezhovskaya,0.113254,0.015233,0.07335,0.079296 5,-0.014772,0.019383,0.0034075,0.006692,-0.0111465,-0.031709,0.014209,0.001274,0.00171,-0.03069,0.017779,0.010143,-0.0009775,-0.0030405,0.0002515,0.0050025,-0.0044295,-0.0075425,-0.000863,0.0076515,0.000539
RUS_North_Caucasus_MBA,0.1052865,0.1335425,-0.0678815,-0.033592,-0.0526255,-0.003486,0.014571,-0.0068075,-0.0721965,-0.033896,0.000406,0.014237,-0.0274275,0,0.004072,-0.0201535,0.0134945,-0.002407,-0.0126955,0.0169455,0.0195905,-0.0001855,-0.006594,-0.0165685,-0.0078435
RUS_Priobrazhenka_LBA,0.105855,0.017264,0.062979,0 .107883,-0.022773,0.029284,-0.015511,-0.002077,-0.015135,-0.042643,0.015265,-0.00045,0.004311,-0.031516,0.024022,0.00411,-0.007302,-0.004307,-0.001131,0.008004,-0.007736,0.009027,0.002095,-0.002289,-0.002994
RUS_Sintashta_MLBA,0.1253606,0.1159088,0.0573223,0 .0784596,0.0129113,0.028637,0.0053837,0.0036607,-0.0167987,-0.0281637,-0.0018749,0.0017439,-0.0020812,-0.0209374,0.0224556,0.0095765,-0.0078052,0.0003282,-0.0010971,-0.0013586,-0.0061709,0.0028665,0.0014789,0.0076789,-0.0025964
RUS_Sintashta_MLBA_contam,0.124067,0.107646,0.0445 ,0.083657,0.009232,0.029562,0.00611,0.002769,-0.013294,-0.03426,0.002111,-0.001798,0.000892,-0.01445,0.02443,0.007027,-0.01017,-0.00076,0.006662,-0.002751,0.00025,-0.007172,0.001602,-0.00482,0.001197
RUS_Sintashta_MLBA_o1,0.108132,0.006093,0.029793,0 .162793,-0.092633,0.054384,-0.031256,-0.031383,-0.0452,-0.087473,0.012342,-0.005845,0.01219,-0.059728,0.022665,0.015513,-0.006519,-0.012542,-0.006411,-0.007128,-0.022959,0.004328,0.012202,-0.001205,0.001317
RUS_Sintashta_MLBA_o2,0.121032,0.0700717,0.0486487 ,0.1169267,-0.0273893,0.042763,-0.0054837,-0.0101537,-0.030883,-0.0600773,0.003356,0,0.0050543,-0.0372957,0.0289083,0.0145407,-0.0063887,-0.0008867,-0.0036873,-0.0025427,-0.0133517,0.000206,0.010312,0.0121703,-0.0020757
RUS_Sintashta_MLBA_o3,0.117238,-0.002031,0.093149,0.174098,-0.060627,0.048527,-0.026321,-0.032999,-0.035587,-0.083829,0.026956,-0.005545,0.020961,-0.048856,0.02158,0.01843,-0.0103,-0.008742,0.000251,0.009129,-0.02009,0.015704,0.016269,-0.008676,-0.006227
RUS_Srubnaya_Alakul_MLBA,0.1286201,0.1048896,0.060 1779,0.0854104,0.0047041,0.0341841,0.0037264,0.004 1537,-0.0231403,-0.0376189,-0.0025289,0.000428,-0.0024847,-0.0179303,0.0240614,0.0109101,-0.0079906,-9.06e-05,0.0005387,0.0029657,-0.0016936,0.0016957,0.0031869,0.0064724,-0.0002051
RUS_Srubnaya_MLBA,0.1253088,0.1154011,0.0560538,0. 0815135,0.0066585,0.0328839,0.0043155,0.0043634,-0.0192996,-0.0311127,-0.0006937,0.0016894,-0.0027975,-0.0171778,0.0241334,0.0078348,-0.012754,0.0006564,0.0005026,0.0001024,-0.0025976,0.0047325,-0.0003584,0.0068355,-0.0005334
RUS_Srubnaya_MLBA_o,0.127482,0.031481,0.048649,0.1 41798,-0.062473,0.056894,-0.017626,-0.029537,-0.047859,-0.088567,0.006171,-0.006594,0.015461,-0.049407,0.016286,0.005569,-0.013038,-0.009375,-0.004525,0.009004,-0.015847,0.018424,0.01479,0.019521,-0.001078
RUS_Tagar,0.1059979,0.0083782,0.060528,0.0720694,-0.0231581,0.0190342,-0.0009694,-0.0028269,-0.0184329,-0.0343289,-0.001502,-0.0016861,-0.0011523,-0.0222604,0.0204769,0.0058175,-0.0105286,0.0001425,0.0005498,0.0022041,-0.0190913,0.0040032,0.0006931,0.0074408,-0.0034729
RUS_Yakutia_Ymyiakhtakh_LN,0.0369925,-0.420429,0.1319925,-0.003876,-0.143873,-0.0743245,0.0271435,0.030691,0.0229065,0.0027335,0 .071532,0.0005245,0,-0.0323415,-0.0299945,-0.022275,0.0067145,0.0122885,0.0292245,0.003877,0. 033316,-0.028749,0.0084425,0.005603,0.0164655
RUS_Yankovsky_IA,0.021626,-0.455973,0.06939,-0.045866,-0.032621,-0.029005,0.00987,0.012692,0.008795,0.011845,-0.054887,-0.006894,0.001189,0.006193,-0.003122,-0.003315,0.000522,0.007095,0.014832,0.012131,-0.000624,-0.019166,-0.014666,0.003253,-0.010298
Scotland_CA_EBA,0.122929,0.123895,0.058454,0.05684 8,0.033545,0.01757,0.007755,0.004154,0.011453,-0.007472,0.001624,-0.002098,-0.006838,-0.020368,0.019679,0.018032,-0.008996,0.003041,0,0.002251,0.010731,0.002473,-0.005176,0.004217,-0.00012
Scotland_LBA,0.1297585,0.133542,0.0630732,0.052729 8,0.0351605,0.0193133,0.0061103,0.0030575,0.001892 ,-0.0027338,-0.0060082,0.0064817,-0.0180252,-0.0164115,0.024226,0.0058672,-0.0143422,0.0036107,0.0032995,0.0005313,0.0056462, 0.0044822,-0.0003393,0.0042172,0.0041315
Scotland_MBA,0.1297585,0.1279568,0.061188,0.058705 2,0.038007,0.0218928,0.003525,0.0044422,0.001074,-0.0002278,-0.0058867,0.0054702,-0.0137885,-0.0200585,0.0231743,0.0124632,3.25e-05,-0.0012352,0.0032993,0.002126,0.0047102,0.0017933,0 .0020952,0.0006325,-0.002425
SWE_LN,0.117238,0.133034,0.060339,0.058463,0.03631 4,0.004183,0.001645,0.007154,0.002454,-0.000729,-0.002923,0.003147,-0.006392,-0.01156,0.021851,0.019888,0.012126,-0.003927,0.012444,0.004877,0.012852,0.012489,-0.003451,-0.009158,-0.002275
SWE_Ollsjo_BA,0.126344,0.133034,0.067127,0.063631, 0.040623,0.016733,0.002585,0.005769,0.008795,0.003 28,0.001786,0.01139,-0.005946,-0.000413,0.027958,0.014452,-0.016428,0.010515,0.003771,0.002501,0.006863,-0.007914,-0.004314,0.005302,-0.004431
SYR_Ebla_EMBA,0.0961805,0.1482673,-0.064582,-0.0951235,-0.0163875,-0.0350702,-0.004465,-0.0117688,-0.003886,0.0117088,0.0119355,-0.0018732,0.0088828,0.0052298,-0.009127,-0.0015247,0.000652,0.0044658,0.0057507,0.0001562,0 .0068318,0.0031222,-0.0039438,-0.0035245,0.000419
TJK_Dashti_Kozy_BA,0.118376,0.100876,0.0369577,0.0 83011,-0.0053343,0.0299343,0.0029767,0.0016153,-0.0258383,-0.038695,-0.0036807,-0.0015483,-0.0015857,-0.0209647,0.021851,0.019712,4.33e-05,-0.0025337,-0.0001257,0.0015427,-0.005324,-0.0026793,-0.0006987,0.0075913,-0.0029937
TKM_Gonur1_BA,0.0819525,0.0853045,-0.116342,0.000646,-0.0975565,0.0230085,0.008813,-0.0071535,-0.0633,-0.04319,-0.004953,-0.002248,-0.006467,-0.0052295,0.0230725,0.009414,-0.0174715,0.0006965,0.007982,-0.0326405,-0.0009355,-0.018795,-0.0064705,-0.016629,0.015268
TKM_IA,0.103579,0.093429,-0.018102,0.042313,-0.035083,0.025937,0.003525,-0.003461,-0.044382,-0.040821,-0.011042,-0.00045,0.000595,-0.018579,0.024158,0.017369,-0.01356,-0.000887,0.001508,-0.01138,0.001248,0.000989,0.001849,0.009037,0.0019 16
TKM_Parkhai_LBA,0.083091,0.096475,-0.108988,-0.007106,-0.094479,0.018686,0.003995,-0.001846,-0.079969,-0.039727,0.004872,0.008692,-0.00223,-0.007707,0.021715,0.035667,0.009909,0.005068,0.009 553,-0.018759,0.012228,-0.0115,-0.003328,-0.017231,0.01437
TKM_Parkhai_LBA_o,0.087644,0.085304,-0.079572,0.02907,-0.090478,0.019801,0.002115,-0.008307,-0.07281,-0.059773,0.002111,0.001798,0.000149,-0.010184,0.022394,0.018032,-0.005867,0.000507,0.00729,-0.018259,-0.001747,-0.00779,0.00912,-0.01217,0.013651
TKM_Sumbar_LBA,0.081953,0.1046,-0.117662,-0.013243,-0.089247,0.014223,0.013396,0.001154,-0.073015,-0.039181,0.000812,-0.002548,-0.009217,-0.006744,0.017915,0.03275,0.007823,0.007348,0.0046 51,-0.02001,0.002371,-0.010387,-0.005669,-0.013014,0.002634
TUR_Alalakh_MLBA,0.0972049,0.1489782,-0.0589438,-0.0892288,-0.0152796,-0.0336064,0.0006698,-0.0055728,-0.0017692,0.0125468,0.0066822,-0.0038966,0.007381,0.006021,-0.0107626,0.003792,-0.0022882,0.0024324,0.0064735,-0.0031892,0.0027827,0.0051503,-0.0040117,-0.0039643,0.000527
TUR_Alalakh_MLBA_o,0.087644,0.060932,-0.093526,0.02584,-0.087401,0.017849,0.003055,-0.006923,-0.057062,-0.045559,-0.002273,0.010191,-0.004014,-0.014588,0.016829,0.03023,0.001825,-0.006841,0.002765,-0.018759,-0.002995,-0.016199,0.000123,-0.00735,0.005149
TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA,0.1050018,0.1515678,-0.042332,-0.082365,-0.0040775,-0.0274705,-0.0024087,-0.0077882,-0.011402,0.028429,0.0097435,0.007006,-0.0120788,0.0030965,-0.0138435,-0.004475,0.0116693,-0.0021537,0.0087988,-0.00741,-0.0031817,0.0061828,-0.0048065,0.0030725,-0.001407
TWN_Gongguan,0.009106,-0.455973,-0.032432,-0.075905,0.142796,0.070559,-0.008695,-0.011999,-0.030065,-0.024602,0.052614,-0.003147,0.008474,-0.003303,0.009908,0.008618,-0.012778,0.006714,0.012821,-0.013256,0.00549,-0.032397,-0.001109,-0.008194,-0.061192
TZA_Luxmanda_3100BP,-0.303908,0.087336,-0.022627,-0.066861,0.005539,-0.035419,0.00141,-0.018692,0.111465,-0.075992,-0.006333,-0.005395,0.001635,0.001789,0.022122,-0.012198,0.020731,0.013682,0.000754,-0.004877,0.003244,-0.001978,-0.006655,0.00494,0.001078
UZB_Bustan_BA,0.0826352,0.0814454,-0.1135134,0.008721,-0.0938636,0.0196338,0.0082724,0.0002308,-0.0591482,-0.0364836,0.0011692,0.0015286,0.0025272,-0.005615,0.0109934,0.0194376,-0.0116824,0.0041554,0.0084972,-0.0193592,-0.001098,-0.0117718,-0.0033276,-0.0208944,0.0084304
UZB_Bustan_BA_o1,0.083091,0.053823,-0.09164,0.042636,-0.100019,0.032072,0.00752,-0.01223,-0.053176,-0.044283,-0.000487,-0.000749,0.000297,-0.013487,0.015065,0.01896,-0.005476,0.001267,0.002514,-0.026012,-0.006364,-0.013602,0.006655,-0.006507,0.007065
UZB_Bustan_BA_o2,0.064879,-0.014217,-0.120301,0.081073,-0.087401,0.04267,0.00141,-0.002308,-0.007567,-0.008201,-0.004384,0.005845,-0.000149,-0.006606,0.008143,0.014054,0.01369,0.000127,-0.001885,-0.004627,-0.000749,-0.005688,0.006162,-0.005543,0.002754
UZB_Dzharkutan1_BA,0.0813021,0.0764549,-0.1100653,0.0094131,-0.0975127,0.0232676,0.0047,-0.0089339,-0.0625259,-0.0395713,0.0016936,-0.0010277,-0.0001274,-0.0121304,0.0200089,0.026537,-0.0060907,0.0029863,0.0027113,-0.0196344,0.0007131,-0.0107049,-0.0014439,-0.0143564,0.0090667
UZB_Dzharkutan2_BA,0.1058555,0.0934285,-0.0409175,-0.021318,-0.040777,0.0005575,0.005405,-0.0019615,-0.0608455,-0.0276995,-0.0047095,0.012739,-0.020069,0.003785,0.006582,-0.014187,0.015972,-0.004561,-0.011941,0.0208225,0.011542,0.002473,-0.0012325,-0.006326,-0.0034725
UZB_Kashkarchi_BA,0.124636,0.104092,0.0486485,0.09 2055,-0.0004615,0.0343035,0.002585,-0.0004615,-0.0172825,-0.037358,-0.0004875,0.000225,0.00446,-0.0262855,0.020833,0.014187,-0.007693,0.0001265,-0.0023885,0.001626,-0.001747,0.002349,-0.001972,0.0050605,-0.00491
UZB_Kokcha_BA,0.1257745,0.1076465,0.0448775,0.0786 505,-0.0092325,0.033746,0.0102225,0.003923,-0.0189185,-0.037358,-0.001624,0.0005245,-0.003865,-0.0205745,0.0240905,0.020021,-0.000913,0.0012035,0.0006915,0.003877,-0.0003745,0.006183,0.003143,0.006989,0.0007785
UZB_Sappali_Tepe2_BA,0.0728465,0.0939365,-0.114456,-0.020672,-0.0861695,0.0046015,0.0043475,-0.007846,-0.0481655,-0.025422,0.0003245,-0.0002245,0.006169,-0.003234,0.014658,0.028706,-0.0004565,0.002724,-0.000943,-0.016383,0.002995,-0.006368,-0.0043135,-0.01211,0.004371
UZB_Sappali_Tepe_BA,0.0780206,0.0867815,-0.1166675,-0.0024959,-0.0896671,0.0194716,0.0081611,-0.0042795,-0.0616917,-0.0368116,-0.0019339,0.0020164,-0.0042435,-0.0054048,0.0155215,0.0290132,-0.0005926,0.0016469,0.0038166,-0.0196687,0.0009982,-0.0144786,0.0017815,-0.0149418,0.0103418
UZB_Sappali_Tepe_BA_o,0.08992,0.098506,-0.054305,0.000646,-0.047701,0.00502,-0.00329,-0.002308,-0.030883,-0.015308,0.001624,0.004346,0.001487,-0.010872,0.011943,0.006364,-0.004172,0.005321,0.012696,-0.012881,-0.004617,-0.000247,-0.001972,0.002771,0.006706
VUT_2900BP_all,0.004553,-0.428553,-0.045254,-0.066861,0.153259,0.05522,-0.002115,-0.011769,-0.02577,-0.028247,0.051477,0.001499,0.000297,-0.000688,0.016422,0.016839,-0.005607,0.00114,0.011439,-0.007253,0.004367,-0.035983,-0.006162,-0.021569,-0.064186
Wales_CA_EBA,0.126344,0.139128,0.067505,0.053618,0 .036622,0.020917,0.002115,0.007615,-0.005318,-0.013485,-0.009581,0.01124,-0.00669,-0.009358,0.020087,0.010342,-0.014212,0.006461,-0.001634,0.000625,0.013476,0.005317,0.004807,0.013 014,0.001796

bovefex
02-09-2021, 12:11 PM
As I have mentioned before, the Ottoman sample we have (TUR_Ottoman:MA2195, the other seems mixed with native Anatolians) doesn't seem to differ all that much from the more Central Asian Turkic samples we have. Let's take a very quick and amateur model as an example:

Target / Distance / Iranian_Fars /KAZ_Karluk
TUR_Ottoman:MA2195/ 0.04556980 /1.8 / 98.2

As we can see, the Ottoman sample is almost the same as the Karluk sample, which means the Seljuks brought very little Iranian heritage with them, if any at all. As far as your others reasons go, I don't think those are enough reason for a genetic change. After all, even with major lingual and cultural shifts, genetic shifts sometimes never even occur. And the vast majority of Anatolia most definitely hasn't been Iranian in culture or language in the recent centuries.

As for the clustering with Iranians, Anatolian Turks also cluster with certain (North) Caucasian groups. This is probably to due a mix of Anatolians and Turkic Seljuks/Ottomans producing a result similar to the aforementioned groups. At least that's what I think.

I just realized that adding an Iranian sample, in addition to the Anatolian Greek and TUR_Ottoman:MA2195 samples, seems to improve the fits by a very decent amount, and not just for Turkish_East either. Not only that, but Iranian amount can even range from ~13% in Turkish_North to ~27% in Turkish_South. The tighter fit might make sense in the case of eastern Turks, but in the case of the rest? Especially with these amounts? I feel like I'm doing something very wrong, would someone with more knowledge be willing to shed some light on this?

Johnny ola
02-09-2021, 12:12 PM
Do you have a set of ancient coordinates that can be used to model modern Turks, like a Lord of the Rings type list?

It depends from where exactly you have roots.If you are a typical Anatolian Turk.. you don't need much to model yourself. Just a Bronze Age Anatolian sample, something from central Asia(the Kaz kharamanid samples are fine) and maybe an additional steppe sample. Now if you are an Eastern Turk with ancestry from black sea(Pontus) or Eastern Anatolia(Western Historical Armenia) you will need for sure something transcaucasus to model yourself like kura-araxes, Maykop, Dolmen etc. The Ottoman sample is an other option, but keep in mind it contains native elements. Modern Turks are very easy to get modeled. As for western Anatolian Turks, I will insist that they require something balkanic/Slavic(anything related with Balto-Slavic drift).

bovefex
02-09-2021, 12:14 PM
maybe an additional steppe sample.

Why additional steppe? Because I also think that, but I would like to know why you are of the same opinion.


Eastern Turk with ancestry from black sea(Pontus).

As in Trabzonian?


The Ottoman sample is an other option, but keep in mind it contains native elements.

The average does, because the TUR_Ottoman:MA2196 sample contains native elements. If you use the individual sample of TUR_Ottoman:MA2195, it should be fine.

bovefex
02-09-2021, 12:18 PM
Another thing: in the first post of this thread, which I made over a month ago (lol), I mentioned that certain Turks need extra Steppe and Iran_N, even when modeled properly with Greek and Turkic samples. As far as I know, Iranians generally have higher amounts of Steppe than Anatolian Greeks and are also very rich in Iran_N. Coincidence?

Johnny ola
02-09-2021, 12:21 PM
Why additional steppe? Because I also think that, but I would like to know why you are of the same opinion.



As in Trabzonian?

Turkish Northwest definitely needs something more steppe. And not only IMO.

Yes, Northeast Anatolia(eastern blacksea) like Trabzon, Gumushane, Rize, Artvin, Ardahan they are Caucasus shifted. They will need Georgian/North Caucasian references.The people there are mostly a mix of Caucasians+Anatolians.

Eastern Anatolia has Armenian, Kurdish, Azeri like genetics. You can use kura-araxes, Iranic and Mesopotamian references to play!

eolien
02-09-2021, 01:20 PM
Υou are wrong actually.Ottomans were a a beylik.They were a small beylik that later conquered balkans and later dominated much of anatolia. Seljuks were not a beylik.

really ? I hear it for the first time! :P

Joke aside, when Turks (but not only Turks) talk about Seljuks or Ottomans (due to their history classes at school) they cannot conceptualize that these were families (dynasty) that in modern turkish historiography (with the influence of western education) was converted to a society and even to a nation (hence Ottoman society, Seljukide Society etc).

Most people do not know or fail to understand that whatever the history of the Seljuks, Ottomans or other Beys, it cannot explain the turkic demographic influence in Anatolia.

Because neither Seljuks nor Ottomans were head of a tribe or clan or confederation like Franks, Longobards, or even Huns. This is mostly due to nomadic nature of the Turkic tribes that moved independently of the ruling classes according to their needs (new pastures)and circumstances (wars etc). Thus the Mongolian, Timuride and later Safavi expansions and battles created a huge influx of people from the "east" towards the west not only anatolia but also modern iranian azerbaijan, syria and norther iraq.

Before that we can see a similar population movements from central asia for the same reasons (drought, wars etc).

eolien
02-09-2021, 01:30 PM
Besides the Seljuks link, the massive open border between Turkey and Iran, the history of Persian invasions, the Silk Road route, the fact Turks cluster together with modern Iranians etc should count for something, surely

Try to built a PCA map by vahaduo or past software using the public turkish, iranian and other samples. You will see that most of the turkish samples (except some eastern samples) do not overlap(cluster) with Iranian/Azeri/Kurdish samples at all. Of course if you put all the eurasian samples there, the PCA will be squeezed and the Iranian/Turkish other populations will get much closer to each other.

Neither the Persian invasions, nor the silk road can have much influence on demographics.

Moreover there is no massive open border between Turkey and Iran. It is full of mountains. Most Turkmen tribes entered and were forcefully settled from modern Syria via Antep-Marash and further north.

The 2 'Ottoman' samples are clearly closer to modern Turkmenistan samples than to the Iranian samples.

bovefex
02-09-2021, 01:56 PM
The 2 'Ottoman' samples are clearly closer to modern Turkmenistan samples than to the Iranian samples.

Probably worth mentioning that the Turkmenistan samples are mixed too, which is why they shouldn't be used when modelling Anatolian Turks.

Johnny ola
02-09-2021, 02:03 PM
really ? I hear it for the first time! :P

Joke aside, when Turks (but not only Turks) talk about Seljuks or Ottomans (due to their history classes at school) they cannot conceptualize that these were families (dynasty) that in modern turkish historiography (with the influence of western education) was converted to a society and even to a nation (hence Ottoman society, Seljukide Society etc).

Most people do not know or fail to understand that whatever the history of the Seljuks, Ottomans or other Beys, it cannot explain the turkic demographic influence in Anatolia.

Because neither Seljuks nor Ottomans were head of a tribe or clan or confederation like Franks, Longobards, or even Huns. This is mostly due to nomadic nature of the Turkic tribes that moved independently of the ruling classes according to their needs (new pastures)and circumstances (wars etc). Thus the Mongolian, Timuride and later Safavi expansions and battles created a huge influx of people from the "east" towards the west not only anatolia but also modern iranian azerbaijan, syria and norther iraq.

Before that we can see a similar population movements from central asia for the same reasons (drought, wars etc).

I agree.What i am saying is that beyilks are after the dissolution of Seljuks.And Ottomans are a very special case.One of the smallest beyliks and they conquered pretty much everything on their way.The Ottoman empire it was the successor of the Eastern Roman Empire.It was good for Ottomans siding near the Byzantine remains.It gave them the advance to look forward the balkans...and from there later they dominated the other beyliks.

eolien
02-09-2021, 03:01 PM
Probably worth mentioning that the Turkmenistan samples are mixed too, which is why they shouldn't be used when modelling Anatolian Turks.

i don't understand, everone and every population is mixed, the question is when and how much. Unmixed just means you were living in a remote, boring place which is not the case for the middle east

bovefex
02-09-2021, 03:09 PM
i don't understand, everone and every population is mixed, the question is when and how much. Unmixed just means you were living in a remote, boring place which is not the case for the middle east

You said Seljuks/early Ottomans were more similar to Turkmens than they are to Iranians, which is true; I just wanted to add that modern Turkmens are still pretty different from the Turkic nomads that immigrated to Anatolia, because some people try to use Turkmens as a proxy for Turkic heritage in Anatolian Turks :)

Liquid
02-09-2021, 06:34 PM
As I have mentioned before, the Ottoman sample we have (TUR_Ottoman:MA2195, the other seems mixed with native Anatolians) doesn't seem to differ all that much from the more Central Asian Turkic samples we have. Let's take a very quick and amateur model as an example:

Target / Distance / Iranian_Fars /KAZ_Karluk
TUR_Ottoman:MA2195/ 0.04556980 /1.8 / 98.2

As we can see, the Ottoman sample is almost the same as the Karluk sample, which means the Seljuks brought very little Iranian heritage with them, if any at all. As far as your others reasons go, I don't think those are enough reason for a genetic change. After all, even with major lingual and cultural shifts, genetic shifts sometimes never even occur. And the vast majority of Anatolia most definitely hasn't been Iranian in culture or language in the recent centuries.

As for the clustering with Iranians, Anatolian Turks also cluster with certain (North) Caucasian groups. This is probably to due a mix of Anatolians and Turkic Seljuks/Ottomans producing a result similar to the aforementioned groups. At least that's what I think.

Yup, modern Anatolian Turks cluster together with Iranians and North/South Caucasians because Turkey is found adjacent to Iran and the Caucasus. If the Ottomans were able to leave a very detectable genetic footprint with Georgians and Greeks, then the Persians left theirs with Anatolia, the Iranians with Turks and vice versa e.g. North of Iran (or South Azerbaijan if you are Ilham Aliyev) is inhabited by a massive Turkish majority.

Liquid
02-09-2021, 07:02 PM
I don't know how much this will help you, but I will list the averages of these medium and high quality samples dated between 2000 and 800 BC:


ARM_Lchashen_MBA,0.102441,0.121864,-0.043369,-0.017119,-0.045547,-0.008367,-0.00235,-0.008769,-0.044177,-0.019499,0.012991,0.007793,-0.001933,-0.010597,-0.002986,0.003978,0.018775,-0.002407,-0.000377,0.005002,-0.000998,0.001978,-0.000739,0.00976,-0.002036
ARM_MBA,0.103579,0.1223715,-0.031678,-0.013243,-0.0350835,-0.0027885,0.00329,-0.0065765,-0.053585,-0.0188615,0.004141,0,-0.007656,0.00172,0.0139115,-0.000265,0.0008475,-0.003674,0.000566,-0.000125,0.005428,0.0012985,0.005423,-0.0007835,0.000958
Baltic_EST_BA,0.1343112,0.1245038,0.099032,0.11098 38,0.048809,0.0441206,0.0164978,0.0211378,-0.0058086,-0.052229,0.0012666,-0.0188234,0.0366598,0.039195,-0.0194896,-0.00358,0.0066494,0.0001014,-0.0042988,0.002201,0.0031942,-0.0048966,0.0096872,-0.0206052,7.18e-05
Baltic_LTU_BA,0.135449,0.129988,0.089755,0.089471, 0.038469,0.038208,0.016451,0.011999,-0.005727,-0.047017,-0.003573,-0.017085,0.017393,0.021744,-0.009772,-0.006762,-0.011213,0.002154,-0.001634,0.002626,-0.004367,-0.00272,-0.001356,-0.007591,0.008861
Bell_Beaker_NLD,0.12862,0.121864,0.064865,0.071383 ,0.026159,0.019522,0.004935,0.003231,-0.007567,-0.016583,-0.009581,-0.003597,-0.00892,-0.016652,0.02348,0.002121,-0.007693,-0.006081,0.000503,0.008004,0.003743,-0.00371,0.009367,0.013857,-0.004431
BGR_MLBA,0.125205,0.103584,0.050911,0.082688,0.002 77,0.031794,-0.00094,0.004846,-0.025361,-0.035718,-0.005846,-0.000599,-0.005203,-0.023671,0.029316,0.021082,0.009518,-0.001014,-0.001885,0.002501,-0.000749,-0.001607,0.005546,0.011086,0.000599
CHE_EBA,0.128051,0.1416665,0.055814,0.0243865,0.04 47775,0.010598,0.0041125,0.001154,0.0103285,0.0189 525,-0.0030855,0.0161105,-0.0176905,-0.01156,0.0118755,-0.004044,-0.009192,-0.0008235,0.0010055,-0.0041265,0.004929,0.007048,-0.0049915,-0.0086155,-0.002335
CHN_Upper_Yellow_River_LN,0.0163147,-0.4390473,0.0258957,-0.050711,0.017439,-0.0039973,0.008617,0.0033847,-0.0013637,0.0085653,-0.0882853,-0.010391,0.012636,-0.0002293,-0.006198,-0.0003093,-0.000869,-0.003505,-0.0068297,0.0019593,-4.17e-05,0.0167343,0.0017257,0.0003213,0.026265
CHN_Western_Liao_River_BA,0.021626,-0.452926,0.029415,-0.05814,0.018773,0,-0.001175,0.004615,-0.004295,0.009659,-0.067391,-3e-04,0.011298,-0.000963,-0.013165,-0.002784,0.005476,0.003801,0.002891,-0.009254,0.012478,-0.002473,0.006655,-0.000723,0.003233
CHN_Western_Liao_River_LN,0.015935,-0.444294,0.0115025,-0.0666995,0.045547,0.0136655,0.003055,0.004269,-0.013396,0.0099315,-0.0852535,-0.0096665,0.011298,-0.0020645,-0.007261,0.0057675,0.0059325,0.0027875,0.000126,-0.003314,0.01984,0.0072335,0.0120785,0.0051815,0.0 040715
CHN_Yellow_River_LBIA,0.0170735,-0.448356,0.011502,-0.0615315,0.0472395,0.0227295,0.0047,0.0049615,-0.013805,0.0042825,-0.079895,-0.0074185,0.006987,-0.0104595,-0.009161,-0.003514,-0.000456,0.0004435,-0.0002515,-0.006378,0.015972,0.0112525,0.0136805,-0.00241,0.001317
CHN_Yellow_River_LN,0.015366,-0.4473405,0.011125,-0.0650845,0.0586265,0.017152,0.0074025,0.0020765,-0.0091015,0.003007,-0.089963,-0.0113145,0.0142715,-0.009909,-0.012147,-0.0019225,0.0050195,0.00133,-0.0084215,-0.004502,0.0177185,0.0162605,0.0117085,0.0042775,0 .0189205
CMR_Shum_Laka_3000BP,-0.6129375,0.0528075,0.013765,0.0272935,0.000769,-0.001813,0.1482915,-0.1137645,0.00542,0.004374,-0.001056,-0.0400145,-0.025272,0.0019955,0.008279,-0.0068285,0.005802,0.016153,-0.0067245,0.0010005,-0.001934,-0.0020405,-0.00456,0.000482,-0.006586
Corded_Ware_Baltic,0.12862,0.118817,0.099937,0.117 573,0.054164,0.040718,0.008225,0.008077,0.013703,-0.034078,0.01429,-0.013938,0.030475,0.022983,0.001357,0.010077,0.006 389,-0.000887,0.002514,0.014132,0.011729,-0.005317,-0.008381,-0.027715,0.002395
CZE_Bilina_BA,0.127482,0.132019,0.064865,0.060401, 0.031698,0.018407,0.00329,0.008077,-0.001432,-0.006014,-0.002923,0.003297,-0.011596,-0.006193,0.018729,0.010209,-0.009257,0.002154,0.005405,0.009379,0.003244,0.011 376,-0.001602,0.000241,-0.003233
CZE_EBA,0.12862,0.12034,0.0633565,0.0721905,0.0243 125,0.028586,0.0029375,0.006461,0.000409,-0.0167655,0.002192,0.001049,-0.0032705,-0.0136935,0.0206975,0.0082865,-6.55e-05,-0.000443,0.003017,0.0070035,0.005615,-0.0069245,-0.003759,0.0037955,0.0020955
DEU_Halberstadt_LBA,0.12862,0.132019,0.058454,0.05 4587,0.032006,0.023985,0.00752,0.005077,0.004704,-0.005103,0.002111,0.002248,-0.014271,-0.015001,0.015744,0.017369,0.007562,-0.003801,0.000628,0.004752,0.00262,0.002968,0.0035 74,0.00723,0.002754
DEU_Lech_EBA,0.126799,0.1375026,0.055286,0.0377264 ,0.03773,0.010096,0.0032902,0.0010154,0.0047858,0. 0118088,0.0007794,0.0101008,-0.0161148,-0.0138174,0.0124046,0.0115884,0.0074318,-0.001292,0.0066872,0.0049774,0.0050912,-0.0002968,-0.0020706,0.0026752,-0.0016284
DEU_Lech_EBA_contam,0.135449,0.127957,0.04978,0.05 1034,0.029852,0.019243,0.005875,0,-0.000205,0.002734,-0.006171,0.012589,-0.013082,-0.020231,0.020494,0.006895,-0.004694,0.001774,0.005154,0.00963,0.002995,0.0045 75,-0.001849,-0.006386,-0.005149
DEU_Singen_EBA,0.1258882,0.1354716,0.0508356,0.033 269,0.0406846,0.0052432,-0.001786,0.000692,0.0129668,0.020957,-0.0071126,0.0062044,-0.0130822,-0.0147258,0.0133006,0.006497,0.0009648,0.0015454,0 .0033438,0.0004254,0.003344,0.0028194,-0.0048562,-0.0044824,-0.0018202
DEU_Unetice_EBA,0.129189,0.1244025,0.0652415,0.065 0845,0.0336985,0.023148,0.0031725,0.010384,-0.0093055,-0.022415,-0.00406,0.0028475,-0.00996,-0.011698,0.02314,0.0065635,-0.006063,-0.0023435,0.0018225,0.014007,0.008922,0.002226,-0.00037,0.008736,-0.0030535
England_CA_EBA,0.1242567,0.1303263,0.059208,0.0608 855,0.0339035,0.0218465,0.0025458,0.0051152,-0.0012613,-0.0018528,-0.005494,0.0069188,-0.0123885,-0.016446,0.0293382,0.0092593,-0.0032378,0.0008235,0.004064,0.007608,0.0070915,0. 0008038,-0.0011708,0.0017875,-0.002814
England_EMBA,0.125205,0.129988,0.060716,0.06137,0. 029236,0.020359,0.012691,0.002077,0.002659,-0.005103,-0.002273,0.003447,-0.010406,-0.01445,0.029587,-0.005834,-0.020601,0.008868,0.003017,0.001,0.002371,-0.001484,-0.008134,0.008435,0.003832
England_LBA,0.119514,0.116786,0.056945,0.05814,0.0 31698,0.018686,0.00235,-0.003461,0.004909,-0.00656,-0.006496,0.003447,-0.025718,-0.004817,0.019544,0.02148,0.00352,-0.000253,-0.000126,0.006128,0.005989,-0.00272,-0.001602,0.012291,-0.004311
England_MBA,0.1270132,0.1290916,0.0630678,0.059755 ,0.0341783,0.019916,0.0014929,0.0049274,0.0045958,-0.0013935,-0.0047379,0.0039671,-0.0111495,-0.0156566,0.0246771,0.0091564,-0.0059516,0.0030703,0.0009834,0.0039871,0.0046975, 0.0047133,-0.0006381,0.0058335,-0.0012045
GRC_Mycenaean,0.114961,0.157407,-0.006411,-0.068476,0.017234,-0.0283075,-0.0029375,-0.003,0.0025565,0.046106,0.003816,0.0155865,-0.014346,-0.0028215,-0.017915,-0.0038455,0.0228825,0.0070945,0.015587,-0.0016255,-0.0069255,0.001917,-0.0048065,0.002892,-0.003353
Greater_Antilles_Archaic,0.0523587,-0.3188763,0.115022,0.093993,-0.1114053,-0.0183137,-0.290943,-0.3457547,-0.0158847,-0.0193167,-0.002923,0.0037967,-0.0021803,0.02491,-0.0058813,0.0065853,0.0069103,-0.001478,0.003645,0.0061693,-0.0012063,0.00779,-0.0021777,-0.00245,-0.0051893
HRV_MBA,0.124636,0.149283,0.031301,-0.0098515,0.0386225,-0.0023705,-0.00564,-0.002423,0.006647,0.030069,8.15e-05,0.0106405,-0.0150145,-0.009152,-0.006786,0.0086185,0.014277,-0.0020905,0.0034565,-0.011318,-0.0035565,0.0037715,-0.00228,0.002952,-0.001796
HUN_LBA,0.125205,0.15436,0.060716,0.033592,0.06124 2,0.008646,0.00423,0.007615,0.014317,0.007836,-0.004547,-0.006594,0.001041,0.007432,-0.002579,-0.001591,0.010952,-0.002027,0.008547,0.004752,0.004617,0.005317,0.003 081,-0.013134,0.000239
HUN_Prescythian_IA,0.117238,0.084289,0.04186,0.027 132,-0.001846,0.004183,0.005875,0.001385,-0.014317,-0.014214,-0.004222,-0.001499,0.002825,-0.008395,0.012486,-0.003713,-0.019949,0.001394,0.013701,-0.003627,-0.005116,0.003091,0.002835,0.002892,-0.000718
Iberia_Central_BA,0.1229288,0.1501292,0.0578252,-0.0004307,0.0684743,-0.0076695,-0.004465,5e-04,0.0395413,0.0555213,-0.0026793,0.012414,-0.025322,-0.0210333,0.0063563,0.0106737,0.016863,-0.0005702,-0.0029748,0.0016882,0.0121037,-0.0009478,-0.007251,-0.0180948,0.0041712
Iberia_Formentera_MBA,0.120652,0.151314,0.048649,-0.002261,0.056934,-0.009203,-0.003995,0.004384,0.035792,0.058133,-0.001461,0.01079,-0.02438,-0.022845,0.004479,0.008884,0.012126,-0.001014,-0.003268,-0.002376,0.006114,0.000124,-0.000493,-0.01687,0.002275
Iberia_Menorca_LBA,0.122929,0.153345,0.054305,0.00 1615,0.062165,-0.002231,-0.00376,0.002308,0.035178,0.05212,-0.005521,0.013938,-0.026016,-0.016377,0.015065,0.008618,0.002738,-0.004814,-0.004274,-0.004502,-0.001497,0.002473,-0.003821,-0.016147,-0.000599
Iberia_North_BA,0.1238394,0.1545636,0.0550598,0.00 56848,0.0688128,-0.0034024,-0.0030552,0.0019844,0.0358734,0.0562744,-0.004287,0.0095614,-0.0213774,-0.0173954,0.0065688,0.0059666,0.0117348,0.00451,-0.0002262,-0.0026262,0.0098076,0.0044268,-0.0092188,-0.0220514,0.0035924
Iberia_Northeast_BA,0.1263438,0.1502982,0.0608579, 0.0031896,0.066897,-0.0059264,-0.0008225,-0.0004904,0.038834,0.055058,-0.0028212,0.0090484,-0.025644,-0.0184072,0.0007975,0.0107232,0.0113922,0.0003484, 0.0009271,0.0039394,0.0108089,0.0023186,-0.0131569,-0.0163879,0.0003441
Iberia_Southeast_BA,0.1252053,0.1577457,0.0550593,-0.0082903,0.0695513,-0.0091103,-0.0074417,0.0063843,0.0490857,0.0717403,-0.0019487,0.013638,-0.02775,-0.0202763,0.00475,0.007116,0.009344,0,0.0005447,-0.0025433,0.0089427,0.0021847,-0.0065733,-0.0248227,-0.0009977
Iberia_Southwest_BA,0.1200835,0.1497905,0.050534,-0.0134045,0.064166,-0.0133865,-0.0019975,0.0047305,0.046018,0.062416,-0.003735,0.012214,-0.022894,-0.013212,0.0059715,-0.0007955,-0.0037815,-0.003864,0.001571,0.003064,0.0146615,0.0007415,-0.00758,-0.0265095,0.002215
Iberia_Southwest_BA_Afr,0.103579,0.15436,0.043746,-0.005491,0.066782,-0.017849,-0.009635,0.001154,0.054403,0.054671,0.002923,0.004 046,-0.020664,-0.0139,0.008415,-0.007425,-0.00678,0.00114,-0.016089,-0.005253,0.002246,-0.005193,-0.008997,-0.02181,0.001916
IRL_BA,0.1263435,0.129988,0.0607165,0.0644385,0.02 96975,0.022172,0.0019975,0.006,0.002761,-0.0058315,-0.00138,0.0086925,-0.009737,-0.0165835,0.0229365,0.0146515,-0.003716,0.006968,0.0011315,0.0049395,0.006613,0.0 0643,0.00228,0.0110255,-0.0029335
IRN_Hajji_Firuz_IA,0.095611,0.111708,-0.069767,-0.036176,-0.047393,0.003626,-0.00235,-0.001846,-0.043155,-0.019499,0.003897,-0.002997,0.008771,0.002615,0.00095,0.009679,-0.010561,0.012922,0.006788,-0.003627,-0.003868,-0.013107,-0.004067,-0.004699,0.007664
IRN_Hasanlu_IA,0.09675,0.121864,-0.06939,-0.04199,-0.0437,-0.003904,0.002115,-0.004615,-0.033746,-0.014761,0.005684,0.001049,0.004757,-0.007707,0.003664,0.026916,0.009518,0.002534,0.006 034,-0.001376,-0.000873,-0.000618,0.000493,-0.003133,-0.001557
ITA_Proto-Villanovan,0.125205,0.138112,0.030547,-0.010982,0.023081,-0.011713,0.002115,-0.001846,0.006954,0.021139,0.008119,0.005845,-0.011596,-0.000826,-0.007465,-0.01432,-0.011604,0.005194,0.002765,-0.00988,-0.009733,0.001607,-0.002465,0.003976,-0.005508
ITA_Sardinia_EBA,0.1300432,0.181526,0.043746,-0.0535372,0.0847082,-0.0262855,-0.0092242,-0.002423,0.0557327,0.0994095,0.0008525,0.0170847,-0.0323338,-0.0133838,-0.0185598,-0.000597,0.0110175,0.0011085,0.003708,-0.008035,0.0010917,0.0026588,-0.0114622,-0.025335,0.001497
ITA_Sardinia_Nuragic,0.12874,0.1755797,0.0420389,-0.054791,0.080598,-0.0292249,-0.0033766,0.0007286,0.0590321,0.0968825,-0.0011794,0.016146,-0.0335425,-0.0133712,-0.014815,-0.0022959,0.0119129,0.0033673,0.0027984,-0.0096888,0.0027188,0.0026293,-0.0125065,-0.0287993,-0.0006617
ITA_Sardinia_Nuragic_contam,0.126344,0.166547,0.04 1483,-0.045866,0.076937,-0.02761,-0.003995,0.002077,0.053176,0.086015,-0.003573,0.014087,-0.03553,-0.016102,-0.015879,-0.002519,-0.001043,0.000887,0.00817,-0.007879,0.007986,0.002226,-0.016638,-0.024943,-0.00491
ITA_Sicily_EBA,0.126344,0.160454,0.029415,-0.042636,0.060319,-0.023427,-0.003055,-0.000462,0.026588,0.059773,-0.001137,0.008393,-0.017542,-0.006468,-0.014658,-0.016839,-0.004433,0.00038,0.006536,-0.007379,-0.004866,0.000618,-0.00912,-0.003976,0.000718
ITA_Sicily_LBA,0.122929,0.1695933,0.0113137,-0.062985,0.0478033,-0.0259367,-0.007755,-0.004615,0.026929,0.0612923,-0.0018947,0.01109,-0.020416,-0.003349,-0.021082,-0.015867,0.000782,0.0023223,0.0055727,-0.0066697,-0.0083603,-0.0002883,-0.003574,-0.0129337,0.0011573
ITA_Sicily_MBA,0.119514,0.166547,0.0056565,-0.0708985,0.0495475,-0.02524,0.0027025,-0.0036925,0.028838,0.0722565,0.0016235,0.0164855,-0.024752,-0.00289,-0.022801,-0.005038,0.012126,-0.00076,0.004588,-0.0097545,-0.0043675,0.000495,-0.004437,-0.0129535,0.0020955
ITA_Villanovan,0.12862,0.156392,0.042238,-0.024225,0.052933,-0.008367,-0.001645,-0.005307,0.023725,0.040274,0.006008,0.006894,-0.018285,-0.019405,-0.003529,0.008751,0.025686,0.002914,0.004651,0.004 252,0.00574,0.006059,-0.006286,-0.010604,-0.002515
JPN_Jomon,0.012141,-0.341895,-0.0548083,0.0136737,0.0387763,0.0099473,-0.0034467,-0.0049997,0.023043,0.019985,-0.052722,-0.004246,0.0098613,-0.0082573,-0.0221677,-0.0151593,0.0076927,0.0070103,0.0080867,-0.0065447,0.0655927,-0.0444323,0.0107637,0.0107643,-0.10063
KAZ_Ak_Moustafa_MLBA1,0.127482,0.114755,0.052797,0 .072352,0.017849,0.037092,0.000705,0.001154,-0.009613,-0.024055,-0.005684,-0.004646,0.003271,-0.008533,0.026601,0.006629,-0.02373,0.004054,-0.002765,-0.004627,0.001373,0.005317,0.001356,0.004579,0.007 784
KAZ_Aktogai_MLBA,0.1238396,0.1092712,0.057247,0.08 03624,0.006832,0.0277774,0.0055462,0.0020308,-0.0176302,-0.028356,-0.0004872,-0.0001198,0.0004164,-0.0231206,0.0219864,0.0119594,-0.007171,-0.001723,-0.0012318,0.0021012,-0.0054654,0.00413,-0.0005918,0.0059282,-0.0022992
KAZ_Bylkyldak_MLBA,0.121791,0.11577,0.050534,0.077 52,0.007386,0.026774,-0.000705,0.004846,-0.010022,-0.030251,0.003573,0.002847,-0.000595,-0.032617,0.023887,0.024794,0.005867,0.004054,-0.006788,0.008754,-0.001497,-0.001978,-0.004067,0.000482,-0.001437
KAZ_Chanchar_LBA,0.125205,0.1046,0.061094,0.086564 ,0.007386,0.029284,0.006345,0.00923,-0.023111,-0.027335,0.001949,0,0.003419,-0.022845,0.020222,0.018297,0.001173,-0.000127,0.001006,-0.004627,0.007736,0.000618,0.006409,0.006989,-0.00455
KAZ_Dali_MLBA,0.1217903,0.0748107,0.050157,0.08990 17,-0.0118993,0.0292837,-0.0054833,0.0030767,-0.023452,-0.0416713,0.0021113,-0.002048,-0.0030227,-0.023625,0.0256963,0.004331,-0.0118647,0.0048567,0.0018853,0.0035433,-0.0046587,0.0037097,0.0061217,0.0040567,-0.003433
KAZ_Georgievsky_LBA,0.12862,0.097491,0.056568,0.10 013,-0.009232,0.028447,-0.00094,0.001385,-0.031906,-0.04319,0.005034,-0.005995,-0.003717,-0.026286,0.034337,0.013922,-0.014733,-0.000633,-0.002514,-0.000125,-0.007362,0.003586,0.005176,0.015303,0.001557
KAZ_Kairan_MLBA,0.1214113,0.106969,0.061219,0.0775 2,0.012002,0.030957,0.003525,0.0036153,-0.0173847,-0.0280037,-0.0055213,-0.003197,-0.003419,-0.0221573,0.023344,0.0064083,-0.0097787,-0.0004223,-0.0019273,-0.0007083,-0.005241,0.0018133,0.0002463,0.0011247,0.0012373
KAZ_Kairan_MLBA_o,0.103579,-0.002539,0.062602,0.0973845,-0.035699,0.0338855,-0.00188,-0.015461,-0.029349,-0.0519375,-0.004547,-0.006519,0.006541,-0.030896,0.022122,0.0066295,-0.0131035,-0.001267,-0.000754,-0.004377,-0.011979,0.0076045,0.0177475,0.003133,-0.005149
KAZ_Karagash_MLBA,0.12862,0.1096775,0.063922,0.083 334,0.0126175,0.0337455,0.0094005,0.0103845,-0.018612,-0.0345335,-0.0015425,-0.0008995,0.0009665,-0.0278685,0.021851,0.0170375,0.0056065,-0.001457,-0.003331,0.0040645,-0.001934,0.004637,-0.0053,0.0040365,-0.0079635
KAZ_Katon_Karagay_LBA,0.117238,0.088351,0.020365,0 .053618,-0.014464,0.025937,-0.00047,0.000231,-0.031497,-0.024966,0.001949,0.001049,-0.005054,-0.024222,0.020222,0.012729,-0.012256,-0.008995,-0.000377,0.002126,-0.002745,0.001978,0.003328,0.000602,0.002874
KAZ_Kyzlbulak_MLBA1,0.12862,0.1046,0.052043,0.0823 65,0.000615,0.034582,0.000235,0.000462,-0.016975,-0.032438,0.006008,-0.002098,-0.003717,-0.021607,0.02538,0.009414,-0.006258,-0.004307,0.001885,0.002876,0.002246,0.008656,0.007 025,0.006989,-0.003473
KAZ_Kyzlbulak_MLBA2,0.113823,0.060932,0.018102,0.0 87533,-0.049855,0.031236,0.002585,-0.011769,-0.03661,-0.046288,0.001949,-0.002398,0.003122,-0.037709,0.026737,0.019358,0.008475,-0.006968,-0.002765,-0.00075,-0.009358,0.00136,0.010353,0.011929,-0.001197
KAZ_Lisakovskiy_MLBA_Alakul,0.129758,0.110693,0.05 6568,0.07106,0.017849,0.031515,0.007285,0.003231,-0.012271,-0.032438,-0.003085,-0.005695,-0.002825,-0.013212,0.025108,-0.001856,-0.034421,0.003674,-0.003142,-0.000625,-0.007736,0.004946,-0.007025,0.010965,0.001437
KAZ_Maitan_MLBA_Alakul,0.1237421,0.1193973,0.05225 81,0.0740131,0.0116943,0.0298413,0.0074193,0.00435 17,-0.0139953,-0.0255391,-0.0028999,0.0004711,-0.004651,-0.0209581,0.024158,0.0095464,-0.006184,-0.0008146,-0.0011671,0.001197,-0.0050624,0.0016603,-0.0029229,0.0034083,-0.0047384
KAZ_Maitan_MLBA_Alakul_o,0.112685,0.0462065,0.0544 94,0.1185415,-0.0352375,0.0355585,-0.0096355,-0.0151145,-0.0334395,-0.057222,0.005521,-0.008542,0.004014,-0.036883,0.0273475,0.013392,-0.00691,0.0025335,-0.0053425,0.0050025,-0.024332,0.00507,0.0118935,0.008736,-0.0037125
KAZ_Molaly_LBA,0.094473,-0.010155,0.012822,0.050388,-0.041546,0.016176,-0.002115,-0.008538,-0.02802,-0.03262,-0.005846,0.003297,-0.0055,-0.017478,0.015201,0.008618,-0.005998,-0.000633,-0.000754,-0.000125,-0.008235,0.002102,0.004683,-0.003012,0.006706
KAZ_Mys_MLBA,0.1217905,0.0913975,0.0549652,0.08761 38,-0.0019235,0.0273313,0.0035838,5.78e-05,-0.0211173,-0.0383608,-0.0026388,-0.0002998,0.0027503,-0.0260107,0.0238865,0.0099775,-0.01105,-0.0045607,-0.0057507,-0.0012822,-0.0051475,0.0013602,0.000801,0.0081335,-0.0052688
KAZ_Oy_Dzhaylau_MLBA,0.1252054,0.0893666,0.0593588 ,0.0869518,-0.0009232,0.0307336,0.0023972,0.0027694,-0.0146848,-0.0332764,0.0032478,-0.0012886,0.0007136,-0.0271944,0.0233712,0.0182972,-0.0032334,-0.0026858,-0.0010306,0.0009004,-0.005715,0.0029182,0.0050778,0.0078564,-0.0039998
KAZ_Satan_MLBA_Alakul,0.119514,0.085304,0.078064,0 .096577,-0.001231,0.042949,-0.00141,-0.003461,-0.016566,-0.04319,-0.000974,-0.002398,0.005649,-0.023121,0.019815,-0.00305,-0.028815,0.002407,-0.005028,-5e-04,-0.006239,0.000247,0.003451,0.001807,-0.004431
KAZ_Shoendykol_MLBA_Fedorovo,0.1221703,0.094783,0. 0599623,0.0793503,0.0043087,0.028447,0.0006267,-0.001923,-0.014794,-0.0335313,-0.0021107,0.001499,-0.0030723,-0.0258273,0.0247917,0.0171037,-0.0006087,-0.0003797,-0.0011313,0.0007503,-0.011355,0.0035033,0.001479,0.008997,-0.0011573
KAZ_Solyanka_MLBA,0.126344,0.123895,0.055437,0.088 825,0.011387,0.027889,0.011516,0.006231,-0.011658,-0.028976,-0.000487,0.004496,-0.010406,-0.029589,0.011943,0.005701,-0.01369,0.009248,-0.003897,0.005002,-0.002745,0.008037,-0.008627,0.01217,-0.003353
KAZ_Taldysay_MLBA1,0.120652,0.098506,0.059962,0.08 9148,-0.001231,0.034861,0.00423,-0.000923,-0.018203,-0.039727,-0.000162,-0.003747,0.004014,-0.020643,0.034066,0.012596,-0.01356,-0.002914,0.001006,-0.003377,-0.001373,0.00371,-0.000493,0.001084,-0.006107
KAZ_Taldysay_MLBA2,0.104717,0.051792,0.020742,0.06 4277,-0.037853,0.023706,0.009165,0.001615,-0.033542,-0.027335,-0.005196,0.002398,0.009514,-0.020231,0.02253,0.026651,-0.000522,0.003041,0.001885,0.006128,-0.006613,0.003957,-0.005423,0.009519,-0.007185
KAZ_Tasbas_IA,0.095611,-0.040621,0.033941,0.040698,-0.048009,0.018965,-0.009165,0.000462,-0.02577,-0.036994,-0.001624,-0.002847,0.003271,-0.029314,0.012215,-0.000796,-0.01343,-0.004181,-0.007416,0.002626,-0.02271,-0.002844,0.002342,-0.006386,-0.002754
KAZ_Zevakinskiy_LBA,0.1052863,-0.005416,0.052294,0.0829572,-0.0361093,0.0187787,-0.0053658,-0.0058843,-0.0207592,-0.0380873,0.0014612,-0.0007493,0.0050543,-0.0328228,0.0185485,0.0121982,-0.003542,-2.1e-05,0.0042528,0.0028763,-0.0150567,0.0074192,0.0076003,0.0038557,-0.0078832
KAZ_Zevakinskiy_MLBA,0.10927,0.019295,0.053551,0.0 76228,-0.035699,0.023985,-0.00517,-0.006231,-0.024134,-0.038087,0.010555,-0.001499,0.001338,-0.036332,0.019679,0.01485,-0.002217,-0.003041,-0.007668,-0.002126,-0.00861,0.012242,0.008997,0,-0.008742
KEN_Kakapel_3900BP,-0.546351,0.04773,-0.004525,0.019703,0,-0.007251,0.109515,-0.098073,0.069129,-0.064512,-0.008607,0.023529,-0.022596,-0.009909,0.011808,-0.016043,0.014864,0.030279,-0.003771,-0.009254,-0.00861,-0.004822,-0.003944,-0.005061,0.003832
KEN_LuKENHill_3500BP,-0.303908,0.09546,-0.027907,-0.08075,0.002154,-0.041555,-0.002115,-0.00923,0.122919,-0.086198,-0.006333,-0.007044,-0.005054,0.001101,0.031623,-0.03023,0.007562,0.005321,0.003268,-0.01038,-0.005865,-0.001855,0.000986,0.001205,0.005149
KEN_Pastoral_N,-0.294802,0.100537,-0.028661,-0.075905,0.005847,-0.041973,-0.0149235,0.000231,0.1251685,-0.0814595,-0.0043035,-0.0071935,-0.0031215,-0.0067435,0.02029,-0.019623,0.021579,0.0034205,0.0040225,-0.003064,-0.002745,0.0026585,0.002773,-0.0088565,-0.0007185
LAO_LN_BA,0.005691,-0.40215,-0.083721,-0.034561,0.15049,0.078089,-0.002585,-0.012692,-0.006136,-0.018588,0.089801,0.004346,-0.012785,0.010184,0.003393,-0.005701,-0.002477,0.0019,-0.00088,0.026388,-0.016845,0.02201,-0.011955,0.001325,0.039038
Levant_Abel_IA,0.087644,0.149283,-0.05506,-0.100776,-0.014156,-0.032072,-0.002115,-0.006231,0.012476,0.007654,0.011205,-0.003297,0.01888,0.003716,0.002443,0.010475,0.0033 9,0.008235,-0.001006,-0.003252,0.005366,0.009027,-0.002835,0.000482,-0.004071
Levant_Ashkelon_IA2,0.080814,0.145221,-0.066373,-0.101422,-0.021542,-0.029562,-0.003055,-0.012923,0.003272,0.002005,0.012179,-0.008393,0.019475,0.003303,0.001086,0.010872,-0.00339,0.001394,0.007668,-0.003627,0.006988,0.001731,0,0.000241,0.003473
Levant_Ashkelon_LBA,0.093335,0.149283,-0.060339,-0.0969,-0.020004,-0.025937,0.00517,-0.008077,0.002454,0.019681,0.006008,-0.008542,0.009812,-0.001651,-0.011943,0.003315,-0.005346,-0.006714,-0.002765,-0.005378,0.004492,0.002968,-0.013064,-0.001325,-0.00479
Levant_Baqah_BA,0.0878834,0.1485345,-0.0603791,-0.1045334,-0.0107225,-0.0376063,-0.0065678,-0.0088053,0.0144996,0.0092749,0.0107946,-0.0110979,0.0240361,0.0017892,-0.0082361,0.0131682,0.000343,0.0030272,0.003804,0. 0068126,0.0047547,0.0066382,-0.0052996,0.0009639,-0.0027164
Levant_Hazor_MLBA,0.084988,0.151314,-0.064865,-0.1020683,-0.0106687,-0.0403463,-0.0060317,-0.0128457,0.0145893,0.0075323,0.0086607,-0.0108403,0.0207133,0.0021103,-0.0085957,0.0107397,-0.008388,0.0043917,0.002933,0.0077953,0.0061143,0. 005317,-0.001438,-0.0017273,-0.0017163
Levant_Megiddo_IA,0.084229,0.150298,-0.060716,-0.091409,-0.014464,-0.044623,-0.00517,-0.005077,0.011658,0.006014,0.012179,-0.007343,0.019177,0.006193,-0.002307,0.002254,-0.026207,0.005828,0.00729,-0.005753,0.001622,-0.002226,-0.006162,-0.000843,-0.005987
Levant_Megiddo_MLBA,0.0847544,0.1456895,-0.0637334,-0.0984904,-0.0139669,-0.0402889,-0.0034527,-0.0061773,0.0133728,0.0078641,0.0107302,-0.0104215,0.0238429,0.0011962,-0.0055019,0.0087408,-0.0009328,0.0048726,0.0038966,0.0075325,0.0048088, 0.006487,-0.0054228,-0.0032812,-0.0021554
Levant_Megiddo_MLBA_o1,0.095611,0.127957,-0.033187,-0.037791,-0.022773,-0.005857,-0.001175,-0.007384,-0.018407,-0.004738,0.008931,-0.001349,0.009068,0.003165,0.00095,-0.002254,-0.015385,0.004687,0.003771,-0.002251,0.004991,0.008779,0,-0.003374,0.000359
Levant_Shadud_MLBA,0.080814,0.149283,-0.046009,-0.103683,-0.012618,-0.036256,-0.00564,-0.008769,0.00859,0.014579,0.01088,-0.007044,0.01665,0.004542,-0.012215,0.012198,0.002477,0.008742,0.006285,0.013 506,0.015348,0.013973,-0.013557,-0.001205,-0.004431
Levant_Sidon_MBA,0.0812696,0.1468454,-0.0613196,-0.0979336,-0.0105248,-0.0389334,-0.0047942,-0.0065998,0.0114534,0.0101686,0.0104904,-0.0097712,0.0215854,0.005505,-0.0075734,0.0065234,-0.0001562,-0.0011906,0.0015086,0.004252,0.0042674,0.007543,-0.0012572,0.0015906,-0.0005028
MDA_Cimmerian,0.0967495,-0.0177715,0.0526085,0.0553945,-0.024158,0.009064,0.004465,0.0006925,-0.015646,-0.0280645,-0.006008,-0.002698,-0.0008175,-0.01968,0.0221225,0.0066295,-0.0080835,0.0092485,-0.0073535,0.0003125,-0.0112925,0.0092125,0.0016025,0.0097605,-0.0058675
MNG_Altai_MLBA,0.085367,-0.12491,0.058831,0.052649,-0.038469,0.003068,-0.00705,-0.006692,-0.011453,-0.024055,-0.012504,-3e-04,0.00446,-0.023258,0.011401,0.012596,-0.000652,-0.003041,0.005028,0.014507,-0.017469,0.001855,-0.000246,0.010242,-0.001078
MNG_BA,0.053497,-0.327508,0.085418,0.022933,-0.083554,-0.027889,-0.0043475,0.0020765,-0.003579,-0.0048295,-0.010718,-0.0039715,0.005649,-0.0275245,0.003393,0.0068945,-0.003325,-0.004307,-0.002137,0.010943,-0.033628,0.007481,-0.001048,-0.006868,-0.005688
MNG_Center_West_LBA_4,0.0455293,-0.3479204,0.0830797,0.0123386,-0.0776453,-0.0294788,0.000564,0.0037385,0.0023317,-0.0042096,-0.0195029,-0.0041214,0.0041328,-0.0181524,0.0056594,0.0015248,-0.0027249,-0.0024704,0.0013952,0.0146321,-0.0302715,0.0031654,-0.0091328,-0.0028196,-0.0015926
MNG_Center_West_LBA_5,0.0910585,-0.0766725,0.0529855,0.0502265,-0.0287745,0.013108,-0.0008225,0.0010385,-0.0150325,-0.026333,-0.01429,-0.0062945,-0.004534,-0.0218135,0.020901,-0.0023205,-0.0207965,-0.000887,0,-6.25e-05,-0.014724,0.006801,-0.0072715,0.007591,-0.002634
MNG_EIA_2,0.093335,-0.07718,0.055814,0.05814,-0.035083,0.011992,-0.00141,0.000692,-0.008385,-0.018224,-0.004547,0.003897,0.002527,-0.016515,0.02348,-0.005304,-0.015646,-0.00038,0.003771,0.002501,-0.013102,0.002597,-0.004314,0.006748,-0.001197
MNG_EIA_8,0.029594,-0.44074,0.081835,-0.027132,-0.075706,-0.043507,0.014101,0.017076,0.012476,0.015308,-0.036537,-0.001499,-0.00773,0.003853,0.0019,0,-0.004042,0.00038,0.001006,0.022511,-0.033815,0.004328,-0.026252,-0.004699,0.007664
MNG_Khovsgol_BA,0.0479808,-0.3330937,0.0813422,0.0202496,-0.0764165,-0.0283612,-0.0030188,-0.0044198,0.0013844,-0.0044858,-0.0187622,-0.0040002,0.0030076,-0.0199763,0.0061181,0.0018562,-0.0031092,9.6e-06,0.0020015,0.0126599,-0.0325482,0.0075238,-0.0082481,-0.0047087,0.0002211
MNG_Khovsgol_BA_o1,0.027318,-0.412305,0.07467,-0.020349,-0.070167,-0.035977,0.010575,0.021691,0.011453,0.016766,-0.043682,-0.010041,0.008474,-0.001789,0.000271,0.000928,-0.000391,-0.000253,0.002891,0.021635,-0.027452,0.001855,-0.008874,-0.005784,0.010538
MNG_Mongun_Taiga_LBA_1,0.05805,-0.300597,0.087115,0.04199,-0.094171,-0.021753,-0.015981,-0.009461,-0.011453,-0.01549,0.005521,-0.006294,0.008771,-0.022708,0.011265,0.012331,-0.006258,-0.007728,0.005656,0.012506,-0.041427,0.01014,0.003204,0.00241,-0.002515
MNG_Mongun_Taiga_LBA_3,0.0861263,-0.1056147,0.053551,0.0425283,-0.01549,0.016083,0.002115,0.003923,-0.0072943,-0.0179807,-0.0177543,-0.0075433,0.0041623,-0.0219737,0.010993,0.0064967,-0.0050413,-0.0028297,-0.0010893,0.0044603,-0.0110223,0.00136,-0.0053407,0.008274,-0.004231
MNG_Munkhkhairkhan_MBA_1,0.048944,-0.330555,0.0906975,0.041667,-0.0901705,-0.029423,-0.011398,-0.009692,0.0002045,-0.0141235,-0.0045465,-0.004646,0.004311,-0.0322725,0.00604,0.0035135,-0.004303,-0.0052575,6.3e-05,0.011443,-0.0359365,0.003091,-0.0051765,-0.004579,-0.001856
MNG_Munkhkhairkhan_MBA_2,0.071709,-0.219354,0.043746,0.047158,-0.074168,0.00251,-0.012456,-0.008307,-0.019021,-0.033167,-0.023871,-0.007793,0.00773,-0.02202,0.009365,0.000796,-0.005346,-0.004814,0.004651,0.00075,-0.026578,0.010387,-0.007518,0.004458,-0.000359
MNG_Slab_Grave_EIA_1,0.0291064,-0.4366776,0.0867379,-0.0273166,-0.0743876,-0.0478497,0.0151751,0.0230429,0.0128851,0.0169217,-0.0337071,-0.0011774,-0.0007646,-0.0021037,-0.0011633,-0.0024057,-0.0019186,-0.0021719,0.0011493,0.015847,-0.0254551,-0.0013249,-0.0214453,-0.0039936,0.0021213
MNG_Ulaanzukh_LBA_2,0.0241873,-0.439724,0.0723128,-0.0351262,-0.0616265,-0.0411362,0.0113392,0.017826,0.0113512,0.0125288,-0.0466052,-0.0042337,0.0057235,-0.0022362,-0.0002038,-0.000431,-0.0011738,0.0006968,0.003394,0.019009,-0.027982,0.0047915,-0.0182712,-0.0075007,0.0074842
NLD_BA,0.127482,0.12948,0.0669385,0.0663765,0.0281 59,0.0174305,0.006815,0.0043845,-0.002045,-0.0087475,-0.0077945,0.004796,-0.014123,-0.0217445,0.029112,0.0100105,0.0036505,-6.3e-05,0.00132,0.0106925,0.0023085,-0.002164,0.001602,0.005603,-0.0001195
NPL_Chokhopani_2700BP,0.012521,-0.410274,-0.011691,-0.031331,0.017542,0.011435,0.00658,0.011999,0.0100 22,0.021139,-0.081194,-0.006444,0.010109,-0.004679,-0.011401,0,0.011213,-0.001267,-0.009302,0.009379,0.004991,0.029306,0.004314,0.003 615,0.031734
PAK_Aligrama_IA,0.055773,-0.046714,-0.136518,0.080427,-0.09294,0.046854,0.00235,0.005077,-0.011249,-0.005103,-0.008931,0.002847,0.003122,-0.013487,0.012622,0.002254,-0.006519,-0.002787,0.007793,-0.011255,0.007362,-0.010263,0.003697,-0.010363,0.010777
PAK_Barikot_IA,0.0717085,0.015233,-0.1021995,0.060078,-0.084785,0.0432285,0.0066975,-0.002192,-0.0298605,-0.01467,-0.0086875,0.00045,-0.005426,-0.0056425,0.016083,0.0088835,-0.01017,-0.0039905,-0.002074,-0.012256,0.001061,-0.0073575,0.005916,0.000241,0.0059875
PAK_Butkara_IA,0.0660173,0.0057547,-0.1058453,0.0650307,-0.0815533,0.0425773,0.00517,-0.0015383,-0.0173847,-0.0180413,-0.0090937,0.0014987,-0.0010903,-0.0120193,0.006062,0.0194467,0.007084,-0.000718,-0.0016343,-0.013048,0.0050327,-0.0015663,-0.000411,-0.0051813,0.0042313
PAK_Gogdara_IA,0.070001,-0.0071085,-0.106348,0.069122,-0.0817075,0.04532,0.00188,-0.0008075,-0.014521,-0.016219,-0.0010555,-0.0026975,-0.0032705,-0.0016515,0.008075,0.010541,-0.0079535,0,-0.002137,-0.010755,0.001435,-0.0040805,0.0019715,-0.009158,-0.001976
PAK_Katelai_IA,0.0675516,-0.0013687,-0.1123164,0.0702033,-0.0801889,0.0423793,0.0032185,0.0005217,-0.0172511,-0.0156881,-0.005627,7.17e-05,-0.0009566,-0.0095139,0.0114418,0.00995,-0.0007653,0.0005122,0.0003552,-0.0084552,0.0003526,-0.0064352,0.002465,-0.0043744,0.0033738
PAK_Loebanr_IA,0.0674127,-0.0006552,-0.1115912,0.0670277,-0.0821294,0.0435338,0.0032825,0.0008635,-0.0179387,-0.0145318,-0.0058407,0.001315,-0.0033569,-0.0066503,0.0118734,0.0116208,-0.0029357,0.0011115,0.0011556,-0.0102751,-0.0020167,-0.0065537,0.0005605,-0.0063981,0.0038745
PAK_Loebanr_IA_o,0.086506,0.042652,-0.05506,0.067507,-0.058165,0.034304,0.00188,-0.005077,-0.030883,-0.033167,0.003573,-0.001649,-0.001784,-0.017616,0.019544,0.030496,0.006389,0.003674,-0.00993,-0.02101,-0.006364,-0.007666,0.008381,-0.000723,0.004071
PAK_Udegram_IA,0.0690182,0.0048929,-0.1069307,0.0680943,-0.0801548,0.0412759,0.0009614,0.0053285,-0.0208428,-0.0160367,-0.0033659,0.000913,-0.0013785,-0.0107096,0.0136092,0.0135482,-0.0002253,-0.001405,-0.0009713,-0.0104027,-0.0040724,-0.0054184,0.0032492,-0.004327,0.0039516
PER_Cuncaicha_3300BP_contam,0.059188,-0.299581,0.120301,0.087856,-0.116329,-0.013666,-0.291648,-0.346832,-0.017385,-0.015855,0.003897,-0.00015,0.001933,0.019818,-0.003393,0.004773,-0.000782,-0.003547,0.006788,0.002626,0.005366,0.006059,-0.000739,0.001687,0.002754
PER_Lauricocha_3500BP,0.048944,-0.321923,0.11653,0.100453,-0.112944,-0.021196,-0.307864,-0.360677,-0.011044,-0.016037,-0.002923,-0.001798,-0.005946,0.027525,-0.01045,0.006895,0.0103,-0.003167,0.004525,-0.000875,-0.000624,0.002844,-0.007272,-0.007109,-0.00491
POL_EBA,0.124067,0.114755,0.060339,0.079781,0.0200 04,0.029284,0.000705,0.002538,-0.01718,-0.034625,0.001949,-0.00045,0.003568,-0.000688,0.019001,0.014717,-0.000391,-0.000253,0.00352,5e-04,0.010107,0.004081,0.007518,-0.001566,-0.003353
RUS_Baikal_BA,0.042399,-0.3648288,0.1069138,0.0253555,-0.1065582,-0.049991,-0.0062275,-0.005192,0.00588,-0.0063783,0.0126258,-0.0002997,0.0007063,-0.0337863,0.0069555,-0.0016573,-0.0072688,-6.35e-05,0.0119412,0.0188528,-0.0456695,0.014591,0.0087815,-0.0121702,-0.0129028
RUS_Bolshoy_Oleni_Ostrov,0.0912862,-0.1407524,0.1197736,0.1070428,-0.0612422,-0.000781,-0.003948,-9.22e-05,-0.0002046,-0.0455588,0.0327052,-0.0107904,0.0223586,-0.0497092,-0.0029044,0.008751,-0.0031294,0.0016974,-0.0029664,0.0025012,0.0020212,0.006331,0.0064828,-0.0131822,0.0005508
RUS_Bolshoy_Oleni_Ostrov_o,0.080814,-0.207168,0.120301,0.085272,-0.076322,-0.010598,0.003055,0.001846,0.002659,-0.03991,0.042708,-0.008692,0.019772,-0.04748,-0.015065,0.001193,0.000913,0.003547,-0.00176,-5e-04,0.000374,0.009274,0.000739,-0.009399,0.003233
RUS_Karasuk,0.0998798,-0.0271655,0.0692015,0.0713022,-0.0279285,0.0142932,-0.0059337,-0.0001155,-0.0084363,-0.0307977,8.15e-05,-0.0034095,0.0010777,-0.0391538,0.021987,0.0152807,-0.0004562,-0.0001583,0.003111,0.0055652,-0.0171885,0.0108195,0.0010782,0.0082238,-0.008502
RUS_Karasuk_o,0.044391,-0.349342,0.099183,0.031008,-0.108636,-0.045738,-0.00329,0.005538,0.000818,-0.015672,0.015265,-0.003447,0.001338,-0.032617,-0.001357,-0.005038,-0.011083,0.002154,0.006411,0.018634,-0.050785,0.01694,0.010969,-0.018677,-0.014969
RUS_Krasnoyarsk_MLBA,0.1248552,0.1004593,0.0588308 ,0.0822159,0.0037639,0.0291548,0.0035612,0.0029111 ,-0.0151504,-0.0322979,-0.0003498,-0.0004267,-0.003019,-0.0231948,0.0213811,0.0099953,-0.0054963,-5.84e-05,-0.0001644,-0.0006158,-0.0080819,0.0040329,0.0030906,0.0076748,-0.0029015
RUS_Krasnoyarsk_MLBA_o,0.102441,-0.076165,0.094657,0.094639,-0.053241,-0.001116,-0.004465,0.000462,-0.006749,-0.036994,0.025495,-0.013038,0.010704,-0.044039,0.011265,-0.000265,-0.013299,0,0.009553,-0.003502,-0.003119,0.006801,0.005423,0.00482,-0.003233
RUS_Magadan_BA,0.043822,-0.3457875,0.1010685,0.0247095,-0.0912475,-0.0352795,-0.039952,-0.041421,0.0021475,-0.0060135,0.0199735,-0.002997,0.00223,-0.0164455,-0.0240905,-0.0130605,-0.0049545,0.0141895,0.0346925,0.0180715,0.02689,-0.051996,0.0105375,0.0233765,0.0225725
RUS_Mezhovskaya,0.113254,0.015233,0.07335,0.079296 5,-0.014772,0.019383,0.0034075,0.006692,-0.0111465,-0.031709,0.014209,0.001274,0.00171,-0.03069,0.017779,0.010143,-0.0009775,-0.0030405,0.0002515,0.0050025,-0.0044295,-0.0075425,-0.000863,0.0076515,0.000539
RUS_North_Caucasus_MBA,0.1052865,0.1335425,-0.0678815,-0.033592,-0.0526255,-0.003486,0.014571,-0.0068075,-0.0721965,-0.033896,0.000406,0.014237,-0.0274275,0,0.004072,-0.0201535,0.0134945,-0.002407,-0.0126955,0.0169455,0.0195905,-0.0001855,-0.006594,-0.0165685,-0.0078435
RUS_Priobrazhenka_LBA,0.105855,0.017264,0.062979,0 .107883,-0.022773,0.029284,-0.015511,-0.002077,-0.015135,-0.042643,0.015265,-0.00045,0.004311,-0.031516,0.024022,0.00411,-0.007302,-0.004307,-0.001131,0.008004,-0.007736,0.009027,0.002095,-0.002289,-0.002994
RUS_Sintashta_MLBA,0.1253606,0.1159088,0.0573223,0 .0784596,0.0129113,0.028637,0.0053837,0.0036607,-0.0167987,-0.0281637,-0.0018749,0.0017439,-0.0020812,-0.0209374,0.0224556,0.0095765,-0.0078052,0.0003282,-0.0010971,-0.0013586,-0.0061709,0.0028665,0.0014789,0.0076789,-0.0025964
RUS_Sintashta_MLBA_contam,0.124067,0.107646,0.0445 ,0.083657,0.009232,0.029562,0.00611,0.002769,-0.013294,-0.03426,0.002111,-0.001798,0.000892,-0.01445,0.02443,0.007027,-0.01017,-0.00076,0.006662,-0.002751,0.00025,-0.007172,0.001602,-0.00482,0.001197
RUS_Sintashta_MLBA_o1,0.108132,0.006093,0.029793,0 .162793,-0.092633,0.054384,-0.031256,-0.031383,-0.0452,-0.087473,0.012342,-0.005845,0.01219,-0.059728,0.022665,0.015513,-0.006519,-0.012542,-0.006411,-0.007128,-0.022959,0.004328,0.012202,-0.001205,0.001317
RUS_Sintashta_MLBA_o2,0.121032,0.0700717,0.0486487 ,0.1169267,-0.0273893,0.042763,-0.0054837,-0.0101537,-0.030883,-0.0600773,0.003356,0,0.0050543,-0.0372957,0.0289083,0.0145407,-0.0063887,-0.0008867,-0.0036873,-0.0025427,-0.0133517,0.000206,0.010312,0.0121703,-0.0020757
RUS_Sintashta_MLBA_o3,0.117238,-0.002031,0.093149,0.174098,-0.060627,0.048527,-0.026321,-0.032999,-0.035587,-0.083829,0.026956,-0.005545,0.020961,-0.048856,0.02158,0.01843,-0.0103,-0.008742,0.000251,0.009129,-0.02009,0.015704,0.016269,-0.008676,-0.006227
RUS_Srubnaya_Alakul_MLBA,0.1286201,0.1048896,0.060 1779,0.0854104,0.0047041,0.0341841,0.0037264,0.004 1537,-0.0231403,-0.0376189,-0.0025289,0.000428,-0.0024847,-0.0179303,0.0240614,0.0109101,-0.0079906,-9.06e-05,0.0005387,0.0029657,-0.0016936,0.0016957,0.0031869,0.0064724,-0.0002051
RUS_Srubnaya_MLBA,0.1253088,0.1154011,0.0560538,0. 0815135,0.0066585,0.0328839,0.0043155,0.0043634,-0.0192996,-0.0311127,-0.0006937,0.0016894,-0.0027975,-0.0171778,0.0241334,0.0078348,-0.012754,0.0006564,0.0005026,0.0001024,-0.0025976,0.0047325,-0.0003584,0.0068355,-0.0005334
RUS_Srubnaya_MLBA_o,0.127482,0.031481,0.048649,0.1 41798,-0.062473,0.056894,-0.017626,-0.029537,-0.047859,-0.088567,0.006171,-0.006594,0.015461,-0.049407,0.016286,0.005569,-0.013038,-0.009375,-0.004525,0.009004,-0.015847,0.018424,0.01479,0.019521,-0.001078
RUS_Tagar,0.1059979,0.0083782,0.060528,0.0720694,-0.0231581,0.0190342,-0.0009694,-0.0028269,-0.0184329,-0.0343289,-0.001502,-0.0016861,-0.0011523,-0.0222604,0.0204769,0.0058175,-0.0105286,0.0001425,0.0005498,0.0022041,-0.0190913,0.0040032,0.0006931,0.0074408,-0.0034729
RUS_Yakutia_Ymyiakhtakh_LN,0.0369925,-0.420429,0.1319925,-0.003876,-0.143873,-0.0743245,0.0271435,0.030691,0.0229065,0.0027335,0 .071532,0.0005245,0,-0.0323415,-0.0299945,-0.022275,0.0067145,0.0122885,0.0292245,0.003877,0. 033316,-0.028749,0.0084425,0.005603,0.0164655
RUS_Yankovsky_IA,0.021626,-0.455973,0.06939,-0.045866,-0.032621,-0.029005,0.00987,0.012692,0.008795,0.011845,-0.054887,-0.006894,0.001189,0.006193,-0.003122,-0.003315,0.000522,0.007095,0.014832,0.012131,-0.000624,-0.019166,-0.014666,0.003253,-0.010298
Scotland_CA_EBA,0.122929,0.123895,0.058454,0.05684 8,0.033545,0.01757,0.007755,0.004154,0.011453,-0.007472,0.001624,-0.002098,-0.006838,-0.020368,0.019679,0.018032,-0.008996,0.003041,0,0.002251,0.010731,0.002473,-0.005176,0.004217,-0.00012
Scotland_LBA,0.1297585,0.133542,0.0630732,0.052729 8,0.0351605,0.0193133,0.0061103,0.0030575,0.001892 ,-0.0027338,-0.0060082,0.0064817,-0.0180252,-0.0164115,0.024226,0.0058672,-0.0143422,0.0036107,0.0032995,0.0005313,0.0056462, 0.0044822,-0.0003393,0.0042172,0.0041315
Scotland_MBA,0.1297585,0.1279568,0.061188,0.058705 2,0.038007,0.0218928,0.003525,0.0044422,0.001074,-0.0002278,-0.0058867,0.0054702,-0.0137885,-0.0200585,0.0231743,0.0124632,3.25e-05,-0.0012352,0.0032993,0.002126,0.0047102,0.0017933,0 .0020952,0.0006325,-0.002425
SWE_LN,0.117238,0.133034,0.060339,0.058463,0.03631 4,0.004183,0.001645,0.007154,0.002454,-0.000729,-0.002923,0.003147,-0.006392,-0.01156,0.021851,0.019888,0.012126,-0.003927,0.012444,0.004877,0.012852,0.012489,-0.003451,-0.009158,-0.002275
SWE_Ollsjo_BA,0.126344,0.133034,0.067127,0.063631, 0.040623,0.016733,0.002585,0.005769,0.008795,0.003 28,0.001786,0.01139,-0.005946,-0.000413,0.027958,0.014452,-0.016428,0.010515,0.003771,0.002501,0.006863,-0.007914,-0.004314,0.005302,-0.004431
SYR_Ebla_EMBA,0.0961805,0.1482673,-0.064582,-0.0951235,-0.0163875,-0.0350702,-0.004465,-0.0117688,-0.003886,0.0117088,0.0119355,-0.0018732,0.0088828,0.0052298,-0.009127,-0.0015247,0.000652,0.0044658,0.0057507,0.0001562,0 .0068318,0.0031222,-0.0039438,-0.0035245,0.000419
TJK_Dashti_Kozy_BA,0.118376,0.100876,0.0369577,0.0 83011,-0.0053343,0.0299343,0.0029767,0.0016153,-0.0258383,-0.038695,-0.0036807,-0.0015483,-0.0015857,-0.0209647,0.021851,0.019712,4.33e-05,-0.0025337,-0.0001257,0.0015427,-0.005324,-0.0026793,-0.0006987,0.0075913,-0.0029937
TKM_Gonur1_BA,0.0819525,0.0853045,-0.116342,0.000646,-0.0975565,0.0230085,0.008813,-0.0071535,-0.0633,-0.04319,-0.004953,-0.002248,-0.006467,-0.0052295,0.0230725,0.009414,-0.0174715,0.0006965,0.007982,-0.0326405,-0.0009355,-0.018795,-0.0064705,-0.016629,0.015268
TKM_IA,0.103579,0.093429,-0.018102,0.042313,-0.035083,0.025937,0.003525,-0.003461,-0.044382,-0.040821,-0.011042,-0.00045,0.000595,-0.018579,0.024158,0.017369,-0.01356,-0.000887,0.001508,-0.01138,0.001248,0.000989,0.001849,0.009037,0.0019 16
TKM_Parkhai_LBA,0.083091,0.096475,-0.108988,-0.007106,-0.094479,0.018686,0.003995,-0.001846,-0.079969,-0.039727,0.004872,0.008692,-0.00223,-0.007707,0.021715,0.035667,0.009909,0.005068,0.009 553,-0.018759,0.012228,-0.0115,-0.003328,-0.017231,0.01437
TKM_Parkhai_LBA_o,0.087644,0.085304,-0.079572,0.02907,-0.090478,0.019801,0.002115,-0.008307,-0.07281,-0.059773,0.002111,0.001798,0.000149,-0.010184,0.022394,0.018032,-0.005867,0.000507,0.00729,-0.018259,-0.001747,-0.00779,0.00912,-0.01217,0.013651
TKM_Sumbar_LBA,0.081953,0.1046,-0.117662,-0.013243,-0.089247,0.014223,0.013396,0.001154,-0.073015,-0.039181,0.000812,-0.002548,-0.009217,-0.006744,0.017915,0.03275,0.007823,0.007348,0.0046 51,-0.02001,0.002371,-0.010387,-0.005669,-0.013014,0.002634
TUR_Alalakh_MLBA,0.0972049,0.1489782,-0.0589438,-0.0892288,-0.0152796,-0.0336064,0.0006698,-0.0055728,-0.0017692,0.0125468,0.0066822,-0.0038966,0.007381,0.006021,-0.0107626,0.003792,-0.0022882,0.0024324,0.0064735,-0.0031892,0.0027827,0.0051503,-0.0040117,-0.0039643,0.000527
TUR_Alalakh_MLBA_o,0.087644,0.060932,-0.093526,0.02584,-0.087401,0.017849,0.003055,-0.006923,-0.057062,-0.045559,-0.002273,0.010191,-0.004014,-0.014588,0.016829,0.03023,0.001825,-0.006841,0.002765,-0.018759,-0.002995,-0.016199,0.000123,-0.00735,0.005149
TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA,0.1050018,0.1515678,-0.042332,-0.082365,-0.0040775,-0.0274705,-0.0024087,-0.0077882,-0.011402,0.028429,0.0097435,0.007006,-0.0120788,0.0030965,-0.0138435,-0.004475,0.0116693,-0.0021537,0.0087988,-0.00741,-0.0031817,0.0061828,-0.0048065,0.0030725,-0.001407
TWN_Gongguan,0.009106,-0.455973,-0.032432,-0.075905,0.142796,0.070559,-0.008695,-0.011999,-0.030065,-0.024602,0.052614,-0.003147,0.008474,-0.003303,0.009908,0.008618,-0.012778,0.006714,0.012821,-0.013256,0.00549,-0.032397,-0.001109,-0.008194,-0.061192
TZA_Luxmanda_3100BP,-0.303908,0.087336,-0.022627,-0.066861,0.005539,-0.035419,0.00141,-0.018692,0.111465,-0.075992,-0.006333,-0.005395,0.001635,0.001789,0.022122,-0.012198,0.020731,0.013682,0.000754,-0.004877,0.003244,-0.001978,-0.006655,0.00494,0.001078
UZB_Bustan_BA,0.0826352,0.0814454,-0.1135134,0.008721,-0.0938636,0.0196338,0.0082724,0.0002308,-0.0591482,-0.0364836,0.0011692,0.0015286,0.0025272,-0.005615,0.0109934,0.0194376,-0.0116824,0.0041554,0.0084972,-0.0193592,-0.001098,-0.0117718,-0.0033276,-0.0208944,0.0084304
UZB_Bustan_BA_o1,0.083091,0.053823,-0.09164,0.042636,-0.100019,0.032072,0.00752,-0.01223,-0.053176,-0.044283,-0.000487,-0.000749,0.000297,-0.013487,0.015065,0.01896,-0.005476,0.001267,0.002514,-0.026012,-0.006364,-0.013602,0.006655,-0.006507,0.007065
UZB_Bustan_BA_o2,0.064879,-0.014217,-0.120301,0.081073,-0.087401,0.04267,0.00141,-0.002308,-0.007567,-0.008201,-0.004384,0.005845,-0.000149,-0.006606,0.008143,0.014054,0.01369,0.000127,-0.001885,-0.004627,-0.000749,-0.005688,0.006162,-0.005543,0.002754
UZB_Dzharkutan1_BA,0.0813021,0.0764549,-0.1100653,0.0094131,-0.0975127,0.0232676,0.0047,-0.0089339,-0.0625259,-0.0395713,0.0016936,-0.0010277,-0.0001274,-0.0121304,0.0200089,0.026537,-0.0060907,0.0029863,0.0027113,-0.0196344,0.0007131,-0.0107049,-0.0014439,-0.0143564,0.0090667
UZB_Dzharkutan2_BA,0.1058555,0.0934285,-0.0409175,-0.021318,-0.040777,0.0005575,0.005405,-0.0019615,-0.0608455,-0.0276995,-0.0047095,0.012739,-0.020069,0.003785,0.006582,-0.014187,0.015972,-0.004561,-0.011941,0.0208225,0.011542,0.002473,-0.0012325,-0.006326,-0.0034725
UZB_Kashkarchi_BA,0.124636,0.104092,0.0486485,0.09 2055,-0.0004615,0.0343035,0.002585,-0.0004615,-0.0172825,-0.037358,-0.0004875,0.000225,0.00446,-0.0262855,0.020833,0.014187,-0.007693,0.0001265,-0.0023885,0.001626,-0.001747,0.002349,-0.001972,0.0050605,-0.00491
UZB_Kokcha_BA,0.1257745,0.1076465,0.0448775,0.0786 505,-0.0092325,0.033746,0.0102225,0.003923,-0.0189185,-0.037358,-0.001624,0.0005245,-0.003865,-0.0205745,0.0240905,0.020021,-0.000913,0.0012035,0.0006915,0.003877,-0.0003745,0.006183,0.003143,0.006989,0.0007785
UZB_Sappali_Tepe2_BA,0.0728465,0.0939365,-0.114456,-0.020672,-0.0861695,0.0046015,0.0043475,-0.007846,-0.0481655,-0.025422,0.0003245,-0.0002245,0.006169,-0.003234,0.014658,0.028706,-0.0004565,0.002724,-0.000943,-0.016383,0.002995,-0.006368,-0.0043135,-0.01211,0.004371
UZB_Sappali_Tepe_BA,0.0780206,0.0867815,-0.1166675,-0.0024959,-0.0896671,0.0194716,0.0081611,-0.0042795,-0.0616917,-0.0368116,-0.0019339,0.0020164,-0.0042435,-0.0054048,0.0155215,0.0290132,-0.0005926,0.0016469,0.0038166,-0.0196687,0.0009982,-0.0144786,0.0017815,-0.0149418,0.0103418
UZB_Sappali_Tepe_BA_o,0.08992,0.098506,-0.054305,0.000646,-0.047701,0.00502,-0.00329,-0.002308,-0.030883,-0.015308,0.001624,0.004346,0.001487,-0.010872,0.011943,0.006364,-0.004172,0.005321,0.012696,-0.012881,-0.004617,-0.000247,-0.001972,0.002771,0.006706
VUT_2900BP_all,0.004553,-0.428553,-0.045254,-0.066861,0.153259,0.05522,-0.002115,-0.011769,-0.02577,-0.028247,0.051477,0.001499,0.000297,-0.000688,0.016422,0.016839,-0.005607,0.00114,0.011439,-0.007253,0.004367,-0.035983,-0.006162,-0.021569,-0.064186
Wales_CA_EBA,0.126344,0.139128,0.067505,0.053618,0 .036622,0.020917,0.002115,0.007615,-0.005318,-0.013485,-0.009581,0.01124,-0.00669,-0.009358,0.020087,0.010342,-0.014212,0.006461,-0.001634,0.000625,0.013476,0.005317,0.004807,0.013 014,0.001796

After removing the unlikely ones this is what I get, North and West Turk. Kinda like a Levantine-Sicilian-Iranian Circassian if you squint hard. Are most Turks generally hard to fit? I've definitely noticed 5 populations don't seem to be enough. 43169

eolien
02-09-2021, 07:21 PM
You said Seljuks/early Ottomans were more similar to Turkmens than they are to Iranians, which is true; I just wanted to add that modern Turkmens are still pretty different from the Turkic nomads that immigrated to Anatolia, because some people try to use Turkmens as a proxy for Turkic heritage in Anatolian Turks :)

what i meant was that we don't know who these 2 individuals are, in any case we will need hundreds of ancient samples from anatolia to have a good grasp of what really happened in terms of demographics and population admixture. Until then i am really agnostic on this issue. It is already clear that there will be not one Anatolian history but probably 5-6 independent histories. The same for Iran and Central Asia. Many people when they moved to Anatolia they had already been mixed with Iranian groups in Iran or in Central Asia. There should be at least 3 big admixture events that could relocate the position of a Karluk-like population from east asia to present Anatolia in a PCA map.

Ajeje Brazorf
02-09-2021, 08:17 PM
After removing the unlikely ones this is what I get, North and West Turk. Kinda like a Levantine-Sicilian-Iranian Circassian if you squint hard. Are most Turks generally hard to fit? I've definitely noticed 5 populations don't seem to be enough. 43169

On the contrary, I think the Anatolian Turks being a recently formed population (just under 1000 years ago), are very easy to model. They can even be safely modeled with modern populations. I generally recommend using a maximum of 4 populations and not making a soup.

3-way models with ancients:

Target: Turkish_Southwest
Distance: 0.0149% / 0.01490750 | R3P
40.6 TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA
32.6 MNG_Mongun_Taiga_LBA_3
26.8 IRN_Hasanlu_IA

Target: Turkish_South
Distance: 0.0156% / 0.01562540 | R3P
45.0 TUR_Alalakh_MLBA
30.4 MNG_Mongun_Taiga_LBA_3
24.6 UZB_Dzharkutan2_BA

Target: Turkish_Northwest
Distance: 0.0156% / 0.01558328 | R3P
47.1 TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA
32.5 MNG_Mongun_Taiga_LBA_3
20.4 UZB_Dzharkutan2_BA

Target: Turkish_North
Distance: 0.0170% / 0.01698788 | R3P
48.0 TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA
30.6 MNG_Mongun_Taiga_LBA_3
21.4 RUS_North_Caucasus_MBA

Target: Turkish_Kayseri
Distance: 0.0131% / 0.01312711 | R3P
50.9 TUR_Alalakh_MLBA
33.3 ARM_MBA
15.8 MNG_Mongun_Taiga_LBA_3

Target: Turkish_East
Distance: 0.0158% / 0.01577887 | R3P
51.5 TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA
26.9 UZB_Dzharkutan2_BA
21.6 UZB_Bustan_BA_o1

Target: Turkish_Central
Distance: 0.0120% / 0.01198248 | R3P
52.2 TUR_Alalakh_MLBA
27.8 UZB_Dzharkutan2_BA
20.0 MNG_Mongun_Taiga_LBA_3

Target: Turkish_Balikesir
Distance: 0.0169% / 0.01693617 | R3P
50.0 TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA
36.8 MNG_EIA_2
13.2 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_IA

Target: Turkish_Aydin
Distance: 0.0176% / 0.01762615 | R3P
50.7 TUR_Alalakh_MLBA
31.2 MNG_Mongun_Taiga_LBA_3
18.1 UZB_Dzharkutan2_BA

Target: Turkish_Adana
Distance: 0.0125% / 0.01250405 | R3P
57.5 TUR_Alalakh_MLBA
30.4 KAZ_Molaly_LBA
12.1 UZB_Dzharkutan2_BA

4-way models with ancients:

Target: Turkish_Southwest
Distance: 0.0120% / 0.01196261 | R4P
37.1 IRN_Hasanlu_IA
36.3 TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA
14.0 MNG_Khovsgol_BA_o1
12.6 Baltic_EST_BA

Target: Turkish_South
Distance: 0.0119% / 0.01185578 | R4P
38.4 TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA
32.6 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_IA
20.3 MDA_Cimmerian
8.7 MNG_Khovsgol_BA_o1

Target: Turkish_Northwest
Distance: 0.0102% / 0.01020166 | R4P
39.7 TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA
33.6 ARM_MBA
14.4 MNG_Khovsgol_BA_o1
12.3 Baltic_LTU_BA

Target: Turkish_North
Distance: 0.0136% / 0.01364861 | R4P
54.8 TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA
18.8 TKM_Gonur1_BA
14.7 Baltic_LTU_BA
11.7 MNG_Slab_Grave_EIA_1

Target: Turkish_Kayseri
Distance: 0.0121% / 0.01214109 | R4P
42.1 TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA
37.9 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_IA
14.8 HUN_Prescythian_IA
5.2 MNG_Khovsgol_BA_o1

Target: Turkish_East
Distance: 0.0096% / 0.00955657 | R4P
36.4 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_IA
34.8 TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA
16.2 RUS_North_Caucasus_MBA
12.6 MDA_Cimmerian

Target: Turkish_Central
Distance: 0.0103% / 0.01025838 | R4P
35.9 TUR_Alalakh_MLBA
24.7 MNG_Mongun_Taiga_LBA_3
21.4 RUS_North_Caucasus_MBA
18.0 TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA

Target: Turkish_Balikesir
Distance: 0.0117% / 0.01166959 | R4P
41.2 TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA
36.5 HUN_Prescythian_IA
11.9 TKM_Sumbar_LBA
10.4 MNG_Slab_Grave_EIA_1

Target: Turkish_Aydin
Distance: 0.0109% / 0.01090783 | R4P
53.1 TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA
17.5 Baltic_LTU_BA
15.8 TKM_Sumbar_LBA
13.6 MNG_Slab_Grave_EIA_1

Target: Turkish_Adana
Distance: 0.0110% / 0.01102056 | R4P
43.7 TUR_Alalakh_MLBA
21.3 TKM_Parkhai_LBA_o
18.0 GRC_Mycenaean
17.0 MNG_Mongun_Taiga_LBA_3

Liquid
02-09-2021, 09:26 PM
On the contrary, I think the Anatolian Turks being a recently formed population (just under 1000 years ago), are very easy to model. They can even be safely modeled with modern populations. I generally recommend using a maximum of 4 populations and not making a soup.

3-way models with ancients:

Target: Turkish_Southwest
Distance: 0.0149% / 0.01490750 | R3P
40.6 TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA
32.6 MNG_Mongun_Taiga_LBA_3
26.8 IRN_Hasanlu_IA

Target: Turkish_South
Distance: 0.0156% / 0.01562540 | R3P
45.0 TUR_Alalakh_MLBA
30.4 MNG_Mongun_Taiga_LBA_3
24.6 UZB_Dzharkutan2_BA

Target: Turkish_Northwest
Distance: 0.0156% / 0.01558328 | R3P
47.1 TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA
32.5 MNG_Mongun_Taiga_LBA_3
20.4 UZB_Dzharkutan2_BA

Target: Turkish_North
Distance: 0.0170% / 0.01698788 | R3P
48.0 TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA
30.6 MNG_Mongun_Taiga_LBA_3
21.4 RUS_North_Caucasus_MBA

Target: Turkish_Kayseri
Distance: 0.0131% / 0.01312711 | R3P
50.9 TUR_Alalakh_MLBA
33.3 ARM_MBA
15.8 MNG_Mongun_Taiga_LBA_3

Target: Turkish_East
Distance: 0.0158% / 0.01577887 | R3P
51.5 TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA
26.9 UZB_Dzharkutan2_BA
21.6 UZB_Bustan_BA_o1

Target: Turkish_Central
Distance: 0.0120% / 0.01198248 | R3P
52.2 TUR_Alalakh_MLBA
27.8 UZB_Dzharkutan2_BA
20.0 MNG_Mongun_Taiga_LBA_3

Target: Turkish_Balikesir
Distance: 0.0169% / 0.01693617 | R3P
50.0 TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA
36.8 MNG_EIA_2
13.2 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_IA

Target: Turkish_Aydin
Distance: 0.0176% / 0.01762615 | R3P
50.7 TUR_Alalakh_MLBA
31.2 MNG_Mongun_Taiga_LBA_3
18.1 UZB_Dzharkutan2_BA

Target: Turkish_Adana
Distance: 0.0125% / 0.01250405 | R3P
57.5 TUR_Alalakh_MLBA
30.4 KAZ_Molaly_LBA
12.1 UZB_Dzharkutan2_BA

4-way models with ancients:

Target: Turkish_Southwest
Distance: 0.0120% / 0.01196261 | R4P
37.1 IRN_Hasanlu_IA
36.3 TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA
14.0 MNG_Khovsgol_BA_o1
12.6 Baltic_EST_BA

Target: Turkish_South
Distance: 0.0119% / 0.01185578 | R4P
38.4 TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA
32.6 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_IA
20.3 MDA_Cimmerian
8.7 MNG_Khovsgol_BA_o1

Target: Turkish_Northwest
Distance: 0.0102% / 0.01020166 | R4P
39.7 TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA
33.6 ARM_MBA
14.4 MNG_Khovsgol_BA_o1
12.3 Baltic_LTU_BA

Target: Turkish_North
Distance: 0.0136% / 0.01364861 | R4P
54.8 TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA
18.8 TKM_Gonur1_BA
14.7 Baltic_LTU_BA
11.7 MNG_Slab_Grave_EIA_1

Target: Turkish_Kayseri
Distance: 0.0121% / 0.01214109 | R4P
42.1 TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA
37.9 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_IA
14.8 HUN_Prescythian_IA
5.2 MNG_Khovsgol_BA_o1

Target: Turkish_East
Distance: 0.0096% / 0.00955657 | R4P
36.4 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_IA
34.8 TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA
16.2 RUS_North_Caucasus_MBA
12.6 MDA_Cimmerian

Target: Turkish_Central
Distance: 0.0103% / 0.01025838 | R4P
35.9 TUR_Alalakh_MLBA
24.7 MNG_Mongun_Taiga_LBA_3
21.4 RUS_North_Caucasus_MBA
18.0 TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA

Target: Turkish_Balikesir
Distance: 0.0117% / 0.01166959 | R4P
41.2 TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA
36.5 HUN_Prescythian_IA
11.9 TKM_Sumbar_LBA
10.4 MNG_Slab_Grave_EIA_1

Target: Turkish_Aydin
Distance: 0.0109% / 0.01090783 | R4P
53.1 TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA
17.5 Baltic_LTU_BA
15.8 TKM_Sumbar_LBA
13.6 MNG_Slab_Grave_EIA_1

Target: Turkish_Adana
Distance: 0.0110% / 0.01102056 | R4P
43.7 TUR_Alalakh_MLBA
21.3 TKM_Parkhai_LBA_o
18.0 GRC_Mycenaean
17.0 MNG_Mongun_Taiga_LBA_3

I used all the samples found in all of your fits, including the Baltic samples, despite not understanding how they are relevant to Turks, but I'm not a believer in the mythical migration from Central Asia theory either, sure there was a mass East-West migration but this has been going on for millennia... My best is a 2.6% 3-population fit, bottom of the table :confused:

Target: Azeri_Dagestan
Distance: 1.5094% / 0.01509359 | R3P
56.4 ARM_MBA
35.8 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_IA
7.8 MNG_Mongun_Taiga_LBA_3

Target: Cypriot
Distance: 0.6599% / 0.00659906 | R3P
68.4 TUR_Alalakh_MLBA
23.4 GRC_Mycenaean
8.2 MDA_Cimmerian

Target: Circassian
Distance: 1.2905% / 0.01290521 | R3P
77.0 UZB_Dzharkutan2_BA
20.6 HUN_Prescythian_IA
2.4 MNG_Slab_Grave_EIA_1

Target: Greek_Cappadocia
Distance: 1.1374% / 0.01137441 | R3P
47.2 TUR_Alalakh_MLBA
31.8 ARM_MBA
21.0 GRC_Mycenaean

Target: Adygei
Distance: 1.0191% / 0.01019143 | R3P
76.2 UZB_Dzharkutan2_BA
17.2 HUN_Prescythian_IA
6.6 TUR_Alalakh_MLBA

Target: Ingushian
Distance: 1.3063% / 0.01306321 | R3P
68.6 UZB_Dzharkutan2_BA
18.2 ARM_MBA
13.2 HUN_Prescythian_IA

Target: Abkhasian
Distance: 1.3854% / 0.01385432 | R3P
60.6 UZB_Dzharkutan2_BA
24.2 RUS_North_Caucasus_MBA
15.2 TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA

Target: Liquid_scaled
Distance: 2.6295% / 0.02629499 | R3P
50.8 TUR_Alalakh_MLBA
27.0 MNG_Mongun_Taiga_LBA_3
22.2 UZB_Dzharkutan2_BA


Multi-fits for these population average Caucasians + Greeks, the Cappadocian is really allergic to anything coming from the North!

43179

Ajeje Brazorf
02-09-2021, 10:34 PM
I used all the samples found in all of your fits, including the Baltic samples, despite not understanding how they are relevant to Turks, but I'm not a believer in the mythical migration from Central Asia theory either, sure there was a mass East-West migration but this has been going on for millennia... My best is a 2.6% 3-population fit, bottom of the table :confused:

Target: Azeri_Dagestan
Distance: 1.5094% / 0.01509359 | R3P
56.4 ARM_MBA
35.8 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_IA
7.8 MNG_Mongun_Taiga_LBA_3

Target: Cypriot
Distance: 0.6599% / 0.00659906 | R3P
68.4 TUR_Alalakh_MLBA
23.4 GRC_Mycenaean
8.2 MDA_Cimmerian

Target: Circassian
Distance: 1.2905% / 0.01290521 | R3P
77.0 UZB_Dzharkutan2_BA
20.6 HUN_Prescythian_IA
2.4 MNG_Slab_Grave_EIA_1

Target: Greek_Cappadocia
Distance: 1.1374% / 0.01137441 | R3P
47.2 TUR_Alalakh_MLBA
31.8 ARM_MBA
21.0 GRC_Mycenaean

Target: Adygei
Distance: 1.0191% / 0.01019143 | R3P
76.2 UZB_Dzharkutan2_BA
17.2 HUN_Prescythian_IA
6.6 TUR_Alalakh_MLBA

Target: Ingushian
Distance: 1.3063% / 0.01306321 | R3P
68.6 UZB_Dzharkutan2_BA
18.2 ARM_MBA
13.2 HUN_Prescythian_IA

Target: Abkhasian
Distance: 1.3854% / 0.01385432 | R3P
60.6 UZB_Dzharkutan2_BA
24.2 RUS_North_Caucasus_MBA
15.2 TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA

Target: Liquid_scaled
Distance: 2.6295% / 0.02629499 | R3P
50.8 TUR_Alalakh_MLBA
27.0 MNG_Mongun_Taiga_LBA_3
22.2 UZB_Dzharkutan2_BA


Multi-fits for these population average Caucasians + Greeks, the Cappadocian is really allergic to anything coming from the North!

43179

Can you PM me your coordinates?

Liquid
02-09-2021, 10:54 PM
Can you PM me your coordinates?

Yup, clean up your inbox tho

Ajeje Brazorf
02-09-2021, 11:03 PM
Yup, clean up your inbox tho

Done.

Ajeje Brazorf
02-09-2021, 11:41 PM
Liquid what are your origins? You seem pretty isolated and the closest modern sample has a distance of 3.28, also your eastern side in the models comes out more East Asian than Turkic.


Target: Liquid_scaled
Distance: 0.0265% / 0.02647286 | R2P
62.8 Greek_Trabzon
37.2 Tatar_Lipka

Target: Liquid_scaled
Distance: 0.0201% / 0.02010416 | R3P
48.5 Sicilian_East
42.8 Ossetian
8.7 Japanese

Target: Liquid_scaled
Distance: 0.0179% / 0.01788149 | R4P
45.1 Greek_Cappadocia
30.9 North_Ossetian
15.3 Spanish_Asturias
8.7 Japanese

Target: Liquid_scaled
Distance: 0.0169% / 0.01685249 | R5P
46.4 Greek_Cappadocia
29.6 North_Ossetian
15.0 Spanish_Asturias
5.4 Nivkh
3.6 Atayal

Target: Liquid_scaled
Distance: 0.0164% / 0.01635121 | R6P
46.1 Greek_Cappadocia
27.3 Ossetian
13.4 Spanish_Asturias
4.9 Tatar_Lipka
4.6 Nivkh
3.7 Atayal

Target: Liquid_scaled
Distance: 0.0162% / 0.01620959 | R7P
46.0 Greek_Cappadocia
28.3 Ossetian
14.6 Spanish_Asturias
4.1 Nivkh
2.8 Atayal
2.2 Mari
2.0 Han_Jiangsu

Liquid
02-10-2021, 07:26 AM
Liquid what are your origins? You seem pretty isolated and the closest modern sample has a distance of 3.28, also your eastern side in the models comes out more East Asian than Turkic.


Target: Liquid_scaled
Distance: 0.0265% / 0.02647286 | R2P
62.8 Greek_Trabzon
37.2 Tatar_Lipka

Target: Liquid_scaled
Distance: 0.0201% / 0.02010416 | R3P
48.5 Sicilian_East
42.8 Ossetian
8.7 Japanese

Target: Liquid_scaled
Distance: 0.0179% / 0.01788149 | R4P
45.1 Greek_Cappadocia
30.9 North_Ossetian
15.3 Spanish_Asturias
8.7 Japanese

Target: Liquid_scaled
Distance: 0.0169% / 0.01685249 | R5P
46.4 Greek_Cappadocia
29.6 North_Ossetian
15.0 Spanish_Asturias
5.4 Nivkh
3.6 Atayal

Target: Liquid_scaled
Distance: 0.0164% / 0.01635121 | R6P
46.1 Greek_Cappadocia
27.3 Ossetian
13.4 Spanish_Asturias
4.9 Tatar_Lipka
4.6 Nivkh
3.7 Atayal

Target: Liquid_scaled
Distance: 0.0162% / 0.01620959 | R7P
46.0 Greek_Cappadocia
28.3 Ossetian
14.6 Spanish_Asturias
4.1 Nivkh
2.8 Atayal
2.2 Mari
2.0 Han_Jiangsu

Why does it matter if I'm isolated?

My paternal great grandfather was from a small Turkish village near Izmir, so was my grandfather, aunts, uncles and father (he emigrated). My maternal great grandfather and grandmother, grandfather and grandmother were all from a small Turkish coastal village near Zonguldak, they emigrated to Istanbul, my mother emigrated together with my father. The elders in my fathers line speak with an Aegean dialect, my mothers side with a 'Laz' dialect.

I haven't researched the Ottoman records but I have reason to believe that both sides of my family were settled, my fathers side owned a lot of land (hectares rather than acres), which they all farmed, they had farming in their DNA; tobacco, poplar trees, cotton, anything that made money really. My mothers side also farmed, just for sustenance, but I presume they also were part of a fishing community judging by where they were settled.

I've tried to find a Georgian Laz link but as you can see it's frustrating, unless you are 23andme... do you think those far Eastern signals can be found within more local populations living on the Steppes? Japanese and Nivkh are pretty ridiculous really, I always delete those and carry on searching.

This seems to make the most sense, assuming those two Greek populations are proven Anatolian, I have no idea if they are part of an elite group who migrated from mainland Greece or the islands and not representative of ancient Anatolians. Is 1.6% considered a good fit? What is?

Target: Liquid_scaled
Distance: 1.6477% / 0.01647740 | R3P
37.8 Greek_Izmir
37.8 Greek_Trabzon
24.4 KAZ_Karluk

Alkaevli
02-10-2021, 06:00 PM
I've managed to model myself as a Cretan Greek, Ossetian and Dungan(!), while the fit is quite good, these are modern populations. Perhaps it shows that to model a Turk as a Greek you need to add a Caucasian/Steppe component (Ossetian) and an Asian/Turkic component (Dungan) to the Greek.
Dungans can't represent the East Eurasian ancestry of Early Turkic spearkers, they are Sinitic Muslims with some ancestry from Central Asia. The East Eurasian ancestry of ancient Turkic peoples was initially Slab Grave-like, I guess.

Besides, that model is not really accurate from a historical point of view. Anatolian Turks can be modelled easily as a mixture of Anatolian Greeks and Medieval Turkic samples from Kazakhstan. Adding a population from the Iranian plateau seems to improve the fit value, but I have doubts about its historical accuracy.

Alkaevli
02-10-2021, 06:22 PM
Joke aside, when Turks (but not only Turks) talk about Seljuks or Ottomans (due to their history classes at school) they cannot conceptualize that these were families (dynasty) that in modern turkish historiography (with the influence of western education) was converted to a society and even to a nation (hence Ottoman society, Seljukide Society etc).
The Seljuks were a dynasty that led the confederation of Muslim Oghuz tribes (who then became known as Turkmens/Turkomans in order to be distinguished from their non-Muslim Oghuz counterparts) from the south of the Aral Sea to the Ghaznavid lands in Khorasan. These Muslim Oghuz Turks were collectively referred to simply as "Seljuks" in many historical accounts. The Ottomans on the other hand emerged as a dynasty from a Turkmen tribe in northwest Anatolia. According to Ibn Battuta, Orhan (son of Osman I) was "the greatest of the Turkmen kings and the richest in wealth, lands, and military forces." Many empires were named after their leading dynasties. When people talk about Seljuks, they might refer to the Seljuk-era Turks. And to be honest, you are not in a position to look down on anyone's knowledge of history.



Most people do not know or fail to understand that whatever the history of the Seljuks, Ottomans or other Beys, it cannot explain the turkic demographic influence in Anatolia.

Because neither Seljuks nor Ottomans were head of a tribe or clan or confederation like Franks, Longobards, or even Huns. This is mostly due to nomadic nature of the Turkic tribes that moved independently of the ruling classes according to their needs (new pastures)and circumstances (wars etc). Thus the Mongolian, Timuride and later Safavi expansions and battles created a huge influx of people from the "east" towards the west not only anatolia but also modern iranian azerbaijan, syria and norther iraq.

Before that we can see a similar population movements from central asia for the same reasons (drought, wars etc).
The Central Asian ancestry of Anatolian Turks is related almost exclusively to Oghuz/Turkmens, we know it not only from the historical accounts, but also from the tribal names recorded during the Ottoman era.

The Mongol Invasion caused an influx of Khwarezmian subjects (Turkmen and possibly Iranic) into Anatolia, this migration wave is thought to be even bigger than the migration wave of the Great Seljuk Empire that led to the establishment of the Seljuks of Rum (Anatolia). The likely migration of Iranic communities (Mevlana Rumi, originally from Balkh, is a well known example) might explain why Anatolian Turks get better fits with modern Turkmens.

The presence of Mongol tribes (who were remnants of the Ilkhanate and became known as Kara Tatars) in the central Anatolian plateau is also documented, but after the Battle of Ankara Timur moved nearly all of them to his realm. The remaining few near İskilip were relocated to Rumelia by the Ottomans, which is also recorded (https://www.unm.edu/~phooper/thesis_condensed.pdf). During the timespan between 1453 and 1650, very few Mongolian and non-Oghuz Turkic clans were recorded.

As for the tension between the Sunni Ottomans and the Shia Safavids, it led to the migration of many heterodox Turkoman tribes (namely Rumlu, Şamlu, Tekelü, Ustacalu, Dulkadirlü, Afşar and so on) of Anatolia into Iran and Azerbaijan. "Açılın kapılar, Şah'a gidelim" (may the doors open and let us go to the Shah) is a famous motto from that period. Some of the disobedient Qizilbash were deported to Cyprus, Morea and even Budin (Hungary).

So, if anything, the Timurid expansion put an end to the presence of Mongol (Kara Tatar) tribes in central Anatolia and the war with the Safavids caused a descease in the Turkoman population.


We need samples from hellenistic and Roman/Byzantine times to check when exactly they started becoming more 'Anatolian' like.
I think it predates the Roman/Byzantine era. It might have started with the Carians.

Greekscholar
02-10-2021, 06:48 PM
Why does it matter if I'm isolated?

My paternal great grandfather was from a small Turkish village near Izmir, so was my grandfather, aunts, uncles and father (he emigrated). My maternal great grandfather and grandmother, grandfather and grandmother were all from a small Turkish coastal village near Zonguldak, they emigrated to Istanbul, my mother emigrated together with my father. The elders in my fathers line speak with an Aegean dialect, my mothers side with a 'Laz' dialect.

I haven't researched the Ottoman records but I have reason to believe that both sides of my family were settled, my fathers side owned a lot of land (hectares rather than acres), which they all farmed, they had farming in their DNA; tobacco, poplar trees, cotton, anything that made money really. My mothers side also farmed, just for sustenance, but I presume they also were part of a fishing community judging by where they were settled.

I've tried to find a Georgian Laz link but as you can see it's frustrating, unless you are 23andme... do you think those far Eastern signals can be found within more local populations living on the Steppes? Japanese and Nivkh are pretty ridiculous really, I always delete those and carry on searching.

This seems to make the most sense, assuming those two Greek populations are proven Anatolian, I have no idea if they are part of an elite group who migrated from mainland Greece or the islands and not representative of ancient Anatolians. Is 1.6% considered a good fit? What is?

Target: Liquid_scaled
Distance: 1.6477% / 0.01647740 | R3P
37.8 Greek_Izmir
37.8 Greek_Trabzon
24.4 KAZ_Karluk

The Smyrna Greek samples are a mix of Island and Mainland genetics. The g25 samples fall on the Macedonia-Cyprus cline, not on the same cline as Pontic and Cappadocian Greeks. Jonny has pointed out that many Western Turkish samples require some sample with Slavic in it. In your model, the Slavic is provided by the Smyrna Greek sample. In this model, it is the Baltic BA sample.

Target: Turkish_Aydin
Distance: 1.8656% / 0.01865585 | R3P
58.4 Anatolia_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA
29.6 KAZ_Karluk
12.0 Baltic_LTU_BA

Alkaevli
02-10-2021, 06:55 PM
My maternal great grandfather and grandmother, grandfather and grandmother were all from a small Turkish coastal village near Zonguldak, they emigrated to Istanbul, my mother emigrated together with my father. The elders in my fathers line speak with an Aegean dialect, my mothers side with a 'Laz' dialect.
I didn't know a dialect of Laz was spoken by Turks in Zonguldak. I think you are confused, there are no Laz in Zonguldak, and the Turkish dialect spoken in Zonguldak is part of the western Turkish dialect group. The East Black Sea dialect of Turkish is spoken in Trabzon, Rize and Artvin; and Laz is spoken in Rize and Artvin.

https://abload.de/img/c3rstguwiaebkwuxkj05.jpg


This seems to make the most sense, assuming those two Greek populations are proven Anatolian, I have no idea if they are part of an elite group who migrated from mainland Greece or the islands and not representative of ancient Anatolians. Is 1.6% considered a good fit? What is?

Target: Liquid_scaled
Distance: 1.6477% / 0.01647740 | R3P
37.8 Greek_Izmir
37.8 Greek_Trabzon
24.4 KAZ_Karluk
Greek_Izmir doesn't represent the pre-Turkic population of west Anatolia, they seem to be an amalgam of migrants from Aegean islands and the Greek mainland. Judging from my G25 experiences, pre-Turkic west Anatolia must have been genetically somewhere between Greek_Crete/Greek_Dodecanese and Greek_Central_Anatolia. Pre-Turkic northwest Anatolia had probably more steppe-related ancestry than pre-Turkic southwest Anatolia.

bovefex
02-10-2021, 07:15 PM
Judging from my G25 experiences, pre-Turkic west Anatolia was genetically somewhere between Greek_Crete/Greek_Dodecanese and Greek_Central_Anatolia.

Hi Alkaevli, nice to see someone with more experience here. Anyway what do you think of the pre-Turkic population of Central, North and South Anatolia? For example, I saw that your project models Turkish_North with both Central Anatolian and Trapezuntine Greek samples. Is it possible that it instead of having descent from both, that the Turks from there descend from an intermediary population? What about Turks from the South? Shouldn't they have something Cypriot-like? Or is it possible that the intermixing found exclusively place in central Anatolia, and that the mixed Turks spread out from there? I don't have much historical knowledge of this subject, but maybe someone like you might.

Also, why Central Anatolian Greek, and not Cappadocian as an exemplary sample? Aren't there too few Central Anatolian samples to draw conclusions from?

EDIT: By the way, what is/are the source(s) of those maps?

Alkaevli
02-10-2021, 07:42 PM
Hi Alkaevli, nice to see someone with more experience here. Anyway what do you think of the pre-Turkic population of Central, North and South Anatolia? For example, I saw that your project models Turkish_North with both Central Anatolian and Trapezuntine Greek samples. Is it possible that it instead of having descent from both, that the Turks from there descend from an intermediary population?
The pre-Turkic population of Central Black Sea region seems to be genetically somewhere between Greek_Central_Anatolia and Greek_Trabzon. The pre-Turkic population of West Black Sea had probably more steppe-related ancestry than Greek_Central_Anatolia.



What about Turks from the South? Shouldn't they have something Cypriot-like? Or is it possible that the intermixing found exclusively place in central Anatolia, and that the mixed Turks spread out from there? I don't have much historical knowledge of this subject, but maybe someone like you might.
Turkish_South requires a population resembling Greek_Central_Anatolia rather than Cypriots. And yes, the demographic history of Anatolia is more complicated than we think.



Also, why Central Anatolian Greek, and not Cappadocian as an exemplary sample? Aren't there too few Central Anatolian samples to draw conclusions from?
Although smaller in sample size, Greek_Central_Anatolia seems to represent/cover a larger area than Greek_Cappadocia. Greek_Cappadocia is Kayseri-heavy while Greek_Central_Anatolia is able to represent a larger area because it includes Niğde Greeks (western Cappadocians) as well. The Niğde Greeks are less West Asian than the Kayseri Greek, for your information.

bovefex
02-10-2021, 08:02 PM
The pre-Turkic population of Central Black Sea region seems to be genetically somewhere between Greek_Central_Anatolia and Greek_Trabzon. The pre-Turkic population of West Black Sea had probably more steppe-related ancestry than Greek_Central_Anatolia.

With West Black Sea, do you mean everything west of Trabzon?


And another thing: according to your project's websites modellings, modern Greeks from islands seems to have weirdly low amounts of Ancient Greek. I mean, Koans supposedly don't even have 10%, and the Ancient Greek seems to peak in Thessaly. Isn't it possible that the Anatolian samples eat up the Mycenean in the islanders, while Mycenean in turn eats up mainland Balkan in Thessalites?

Alkaevli
02-10-2021, 08:13 PM
With West Black Sea, do you mean everything west of Trabzon?
No, west of Sinop.



And another thing: according to your project's websites modellings, modern Greeks from islands seems to have weirdly low amounts of Ancient Greek. I mean, Koans supposedly don't even have 10%, and the Ancient Greek seems to peak in Thessaly. Isn't it possible that the Anatolian samples eat up the Mycenean in the islanders, while Mycenean in turn eats up mainland Balkan in Thessalites?
The website is managed y Leper who is also a member of this forum. As far as I know, he uses Empuries2 as a proxy for Ancient Greeks.

But yes, it is possible that the proportion of Ancient Greek in the islanders is pressured by the combination of Anatolian_BA and Slavic while the BGR_IA-like native Balkan ancestry of Greek_Thessaly causes the overestimation of Ancient Greek.

bovefex
02-10-2021, 08:23 PM
The website is managed y Leper who is also a member of this forum. As far as I know, he uses Empuries2 as a proxy for Ancient Greeks.

But yes, it is possible that the proportion of Ancient Greek in the islanders is pressured by the combination of Anatolian_BA and Slavic while the BGR_IA-like native Balkan ancestry of Greek_Thessaly causes the overestimation of Ancient Greek.

Then isn't it also possible that Central Anatolian and Trabzon, and thus by extension Anatolian Turks, also have Ancient Greek ancestry which is eaten up by similar components? After all, Asia Minor most probably had a larger population than Greece during most of the time, and yet many regions of Anatolia were completely Hellenized. Wouldn't that be difficult to achieve without actual migration from Greece itself?

Leper
02-10-2021, 08:28 PM
With West Black Sea, do you mean everything west of Trabzon?


And another thing: according to your project's websites modellings, modern Greeks from islands seems to have weirdly low amounts of Ancient Greek. I mean, Koans supposedly don't even have 10%, and the Ancient Greek seems to peak in Thessaly. Isn't it possible that the Anatolian samples eat up the Mycenean in the islanders, while Mycenean in turn eats up mainland Balkan in Thessalites?

It is not easy to model Greek populations, so far it is the best we can do with the samples we have. I used Empuries2 to represent Ancient Greek heritage because Myceneans come up even lower in the Islands.

Liquid
02-11-2021, 01:15 AM
I didn't know a dialect of Laz was spoken by Turks in Zonguldak. I think you are confused, there are no Laz in Zonguldak, and the Turkish dialect spoken in Zonguldak is part of the western Turkish dialect group. The East Black Sea dialect of Turkish is spoken in Trabzon, Rize and Artvin; and Laz is spoken in Rize and Artvin.

https://abload.de/img/c3rstguwiaebkwuxkj05.jpg


Greek_Izmir doesn't represent the pre-Turkic population of west Anatolia, they seem to be an amalgam of migrants from Aegean islands and the Greek mainland. Judging from my G25 experiences, pre-Turkic west Anatolia must have been genetically somewhere between Greek_Crete/Greek_Dodecanese and Greek_Central_Anatolia. Pre-Turkic northwest Anatolia had probably more steppe-related ancestry than pre-Turkic southwest Anatolia.

We have Laz dialects even in Hakkari, probably. My grandmother is very Laz, my grandfather can reproduce the dialect really well but speaks Istanbul Turkish normally, everyone younger has lost the ability, perhaps because they were raised in Istanbul and weren't as sheltered as my grandmother.

How do Greeks start procreating with very Asian-looking muslim newcomers, after maintaining their tight-knitted Orthodox Christian communities and ancient genetic heritage for centuries? What I'm thinking could be confirmed with Y-DNA and mtDNA studies, assuming the Turks didn't bring their wives with them to offset anything they did with the Greek women (Kurds, Armenians and Assyrians were left unmolested by the Turkic folk). Basically, I'm not convinced.

The study below found that the genetic diversity within the Y-DNA of modern Kazakh men is low and they mostly belong to C3*, C3c and O3a3c* haplogroups. Cinnioglu et al., found 0.19% O and 1.34% C within Anatolian Turks, others have found them in the same frequency within the North Caucasus. Modern Kazakhs are closest to Karakhanid DA:205 btw.

Target: Kazakh
Distance: 3.9384% / 0.03938426
100.0 KAZ_Karakhanid

https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0017548

This applied maths paper found higher levels of Central Asian admixture in Azerbaijanis, Georgians, Armenians, Syrians, Iraqis, Iranians, Lebanese and the North Caucasians than found in Anatolian Turks!

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0166218X08003661#b33

Alkaevli
02-11-2021, 01:33 PM
We have Laz dialects even in Hakkari, probably. My grandmother is very Laz, my grandfather can reproduce the dialect really well but speaks Istanbul Turkish normally, everyone younger has lost the ability, perhaps because they were raised in Istanbul and weren't as sheltered as my grandmother.
No we don't, unless we are talking about individuals with Eastern Black Sea origin. There is no Laz settlement in Hakkari. People there are bilingual, they speak Kurdish (their mother tongue) and Turkish with Kurdish accent. The dialect spoken by native Turks in Zonguldak is western Anatolian Turkish dialect. Is your grandmother originally from East Black Sea region? Does she speak Laz or Turkish (with Laz accent)?



What I'm thinking could be confirmed with Y-DNA and mtDNA studies, assuming the Turks didn't bring their wives with them to offset anything they did with the Greek women (Kurds, Armenians and Assyrians were left unmolested by the Turkic folk).
"Assuming the Turks didn't bright their wives."

There is a difference between migrations and military operations, the latter leave almost no genetic trace. Turks did bring not only their families, but their animal herds as well. Camel, horse, sheep and even dog breeds in Turkey have ancestry from their Central Asian counterparts. Many of them are hybridized now.

Genetic relationship between Kangal, Akbash and other dog populations
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0166218X08003703?fbclid=IwAR2edH2Jw9JX87RqEIhJ3HP uWhOWVHglBbRvQZNUlknvO84dr4h_3i8Na9k

Buhur (Bactrian) and Tülü camels
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hybrid_camel

For your information, East Eurasian mtDNA haplogroups are found in Anatolian Turks, which means the gene flow wasn't male-mediated: https://turkishdnaproject.com/y-dna-mtdna/



How do Greeks start procreating with very Asian-looking muslim newcomers, after maintaining their tight-knitted Orthodox Christian communities and ancient genetic heritage for centuries? Basically, I'm not convinced.
What do you mean by "after maintaining their ancient genetic heritage for centuries?" Anatolian Greeks descend mostly from native Anatolians. By "native," I mean the Bronze Age Anatolian profile. What sets them apart from Bronze Age Anatolians is their steppe-related and eastern (rich in Iran_N) ancestry.

The absorption of the Anatolian Greek Orthodox element into Muslim Turkish society is not something unbelievable.

And when Archbishop Palamas came among Greek Christians in Asia Minor, who might be considered his own people, he observed with some wistfulness – but also some admiration – “the Christians and the Turks mixing with each other, going about their lives, leading and being led by each other...”

History of the Ottoman Empire - Douglas A. Howard


There is every reason to suppose that intermarriage took place rather extensively from the very beginning of the Turkish occupation of Anatolia and for several centuries thereafter. Anna Comnena speaks of the offspring of such unions as mixovarvaroi, and the twelfth-century Balsamon refers to their curious practises. When the Greek historian Nicephorus Gregoras passed through Bithynia en route to Nicaea in the middle of the fourteenth century, just one generation after the conquest of Nicaea, he observed that the population consisted of Greeks, mixovarvaroi (Graeco-Turks), and Turks. Thus intermarriage of Muslim and Christians at every level of society played a very important role in the integration and absorption of the Greek Christian element into Muslim society.

The Decline of Medieval Hellenism in Asia Minor and the Process of Islamization from the Eleventh through the Fifteenth Century - Speros Jr. Vryonis



The study below found that the genetic diversity within the Y-DNA of modern Kazakh men is low and they mostly belong to C3*, C3c and O3a3c* haplogroups. Cinnioglu et al., found 0.19% O and 1.34% C within Anatolian Turks, others have found them in the same frequency within the North Caucasus. Modern Kazakhs are closest to Karakhanid DA:205 btw.
Modern Central Asians are not representatives of medieval Central Asian Turkic populations, post-Genghisid Central Asia was subject to major demographic changes. The Kazakhs emerged from an amalgam of Turkic and Mongolian tribes in the 15th century, which is also evident in their modern tribal formations. Judging from the Y-DNA haplogroup distribution of medieval Turkic samples from Kazakhstan, we can assume that the Kazakh steppe saw a dramatical increase in the levels of C and O haplogroups following the Mongol Invasion.



This applied maths paper found higher levels of Central Asian admixture in Azerbaijanis, Georgians, Armenians, Syrians, Iraqis, Iranians, Lebanese and the North Caucasians than found in Anatolian Turks!

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0166218X08003661#b33
This study alone shows how misleading the genetic studies concerning Anatolian Turks are. No, the neighboring populations don't have higher levels of Central Asian admixture. I wonder what kind of sampling or analyzing method is used. Or was it their agenda? Either way, the paper is terrible.

Here is a good criticism about the genetic studies concerning Anatolian Turks, by Celine Wawruschka.
https://www.academia.edu/31203599/Genetic_History_and_Identity_The_Case_of_Turkey

Liquid
02-11-2021, 06:57 PM
No we don't, unless we are talking about individuals with Eastern Black Sea origin. There is no Laz settlement in Hakkari. People there are bilingual, they speak Kurdish (their mother tongue) and Turkish with Kurdish accent. The dialect spoken by native Turks in Zonguldak is western Anatolian Turkish dialect. Is your grandmother originally from East Black Sea region? Does she speak Laz or Turkish (with Laz accent)?

Black Sea, they had balcony views of the Black Sea. Laz as in the Kartvelian language? No. She speaks Turkish with a Laz dialect, as if the Turkish I know is spoken by someone who has learnt it recently, she pronounces words in way that would require a new dictionary, also she does use novel words but that could be me since I wasn't educated in Turkish.


Here is a good criticism about the genetic studies concerning Anatolian Turks, by Celine Wawruschka.
https://www.academia.edu/31203599/Genetic_History_and_Identity_The_Case_of_Turkey

Now this is interesting. The paper you recommended is written by people who haven't even read the abstract of one of the papers they have used to build their argument. Incidentally, this paper is also one which mostly addresses some of the questions I've been curious about. Essentially, they have concluded that the Turkish invasion of Anatolia by the 'Turkic' group(s) in 1071 was followed by the imposition of the Turkish language upon the native Anatolian population, an instance of elite dominance, followed by about a 1%/generation Central Asian contribution to the native Anatolian population over 40 generations, continuous immigration, resulting in the 30% Central Asian admixture seen in modern Anatolian Turks today. So it was a gradual absorption of Central Asian ancestry, rather than a short and sharp shock, perhaps more gradual than the paper found.

https://open.metu.edu.tr/bitstream/handle/11511/57889/index.pdf

Nobody can deny when Turkish arrived in Anatolia but I still have an issue with the time frame for the continuous migration of Central Asians to Anatolia i.e. 1071. I could start exploring through vahaduo but we have one 'Hellenistic' Iron Age sample (MA2198), who is only 2.2% away from modern Northwest Turks, the next two samples are 'Ottomans' who appear about 2000 years later, there is clear daylight between them and modern Turks, their closest matches are Southern Turks at 7.5%, in between there is nothing. Is this correct, there are no DNA samples isolated for Anatolians who lived between 500BC and 1200AD?


What do you mean by "after maintaining their ancient genetic heritage for centuries?" Anatolian Greeks descend mostly from native Anatolians. By "native," I mean the Bronze Age Anatolian profile. What sets them apart from Bronze Age Anatolians is their steppe-related and eastern (rich in Iran_N) ancestry.

I have no problem with Greeks being called native Anatolians and not invaders just as long as the favour is returned to Turks. I'm not implying this is your view, it's just the accepted view which spills over into the type of language used to talk about these things by Pan-Turanists, their detractors in neighbouring countries and even highly educated academics - our ancestors were native Anatolians who started talking Turkish, probably around 900 years ago, the flow of genes has continued ever since the first DNA strand evolved and will continue until we all look the same. Mehmet the Conqueror was right when he said that he is the continuation of the Romans, comparing the borders of the Ottoman Empire at its height to that of the Eastern Roman Empire, it seems the glory days was retained in the collective memory, so much so that they didn't fight the change in language and religion in Anatolia.

Liquid
02-11-2021, 07:09 PM
This study alone shows how misleading the genetic studies concerning Anatolian Turks are. No, the neighboring populations don't have higher levels of Central Asian admixture. I wonder what kind of sampling or analyzing method is used. Or was it their agenda? Either way, the paper is terrible.

One of the authors took part in the research which found that modern Turks have 30% Central Asian ancestry so I guess they were rewriting a wrong while they had plausible deniability on their side, its an applied maths paper =D

Leper
02-11-2021, 07:26 PM
What this Liquid guy has been blabbering about. I stopped following when he said Laz dialect is spoken in Hakkari.

Stop hitting on the keybord randomly and wasting people's time with your nonsense.

Liquid
02-12-2021, 08:17 AM
What this Liquid guy has been blabbering about. I stopped following when he said Laz dialect is spoken in Hakkari.

Stop hitting on the keybord randomly and wasting people's time with your nonsense.

Alkaevli said that just because X person speaks in Y accent/dialect/whatever in Z region then that person cannot be from Z region, my response to that was as above.

Stating that a dialect of a language originates from a particular region is one thing, using this information to infer a person's place of birth in contradiction of the availability of more solid information that has already been provided in black and white is another, it requires an extra braincell to be able to understand why I made that response and in what sense, I don't blame you.

Alkaevli
02-12-2021, 03:51 PM
Black Sea, they had balcony views of the Black Sea. Laz as in the Kartvelian language? No. She speaks Turkish with a Laz dialect, as if the Turkish I know is spoken by someone who has learnt it recently, she pronounces words in way that would require a new dictionary, also she does use novel words but that could be me since I wasn't educated in Turkish.

Alkaevli said that just because X person speaks in Y accent/dialect/whatever in Z region then that person cannot be from Z region, my response to that was as above.
What I said is clear. She could have been born anywhere, but the Laz accent originates in the Eastern Black Sea region. People who speak Turkish with Laz accent can be found anywhere in Turkey, but their ultimate origin lies in the Eastern Black Sea Region. It's not complicated.



Now this is interesting. The paper you recommended is written by people who haven't even read the abstract of one of the papers they have used to build their argument.

One of the authors took part in the research which found that modern Turks have 30% Central Asian ancestry so I guess they were rewriting a wrong while they had plausible deniability on their side, its an applied maths paper =D
You are free to ignore my post and believe that neighboring populations have higher levels of Central Asian admixture than us. I have no intention of continuing this pointless discussion.



Nobody can deny when Turkish arrived in Anatolia but I still have an issue with the time frame for the continuous migration of Central Asians to Anatolia i.e. 1071. I could start exploring through vahaduo but we have one 'Hellenistic' Iron Age sample (MA2198), who is only 2.2% away from modern Northwest Turks.
Have you ever taken a closer look at MA2198? MA2198 has Central Asian admixture and falls within the modern Anatolian Turkish cluster. MA2198 is either an Iron Age Anatolian individual with foreign/Central Asian ancestry or a misdated/misclassified Turk. Either way, MA2198 doesn't represent the general population of Anatolia during the Iron Age, otherwise we would have seen traces of such genetic profile in Anatolian Greeks.

Not only MA2198, the other Iron Age sample (MA2197) has extraordinary genetic profile as well. David was able to model MA2197 as a mix of Bronze Age Anatolians and Hallstatt culture, MA2197 was likely a Galatian.
https://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2018/10/a-closer-look-at-couple-of-ancients.html



Is this correct, there are no DNA samples isolated for Anatolians who lived between 500BC and 1200AD?
Correct. We lack proper Iron Age and Roman/Byzantine-era samples.



I have no problem with Greeks being called native Anatolians and not invaders just as long as the favour is returned to Turks. I'm not implying this is your view, it's just the accepted view which spills over into the type of language used to talk about these things by Pan-Turanists, their detractors in neighbouring countries and even highly educated academics
Isn't it obvious that I'm referring to Anatolian Greeks?
https://abload.de/img/pcagreek0xjng.png

Liquid
02-14-2021, 04:56 AM
Have you ever taken a closer look at MA2198? MA2198 has Central Asian admixture and falls within the modern Anatolian Turkish cluster. MA2198 is either an Iron Age Anatolian individual with foreign/Central Asian ancestry or a misdated/misclassified Turk. Either way, MA2198 doesn't represent the general population of Anatolia during the Iron Age, otherwise we would have seen traces of such genetic profile in Anatolian Greeks.

Unless the Anatolian Greeks are remnants of the Greek Islanders and mainland Greeks, who came to colonise and Hellenise Anatolia after the Iron Age collapse, the descendents of the Greek ruling class, the close circle of the priests and military folk responsible for: a) maintaining the Greek language and culture within; b) spreading the Greek language and culture throughout the farming communities, who were more interested in maximising their yields and trade than anything else, still the case today.

We know that after the fall of the Pontus Kingdom in 1461, the Greeks of Trabzon resisted assimilation for some 400 years, achieving their short-lived independence in 1830. The Turks of Trabzon, not shown on your plot, very closely related to if not indistinguishable from the Greeks of Trabzon, remain significant outliers to the Turks of Anatolia to this day, despite being some of the most fervent Turkish Nationalists anywhere on the globe. What are the forces at play within the Turks of Trabzon that has combined powerful Turkish nationalist sentiment and preferential selection for Greek genetics?

No. We need Lydian samples, we need Hittite samples, we need Ottoman samples, we need Roman samples, we need Achaemenid samples, we need a lot more samples that are not GREEK and we need to, in my opinion, stop trashing ancient samples for being too Turkish and not Greek enough. This is like profiling, in 4020AD, the skeletons found in the palace in Bestepe, dating these to 2020AD, finding no East Asian ancestry and concluding that the people of Rize are representative of all the people of Turkey in 2020AD, silly. Thankfully, a new project has started in Turkey that will profile thousands of skeletons found in Anatolia over the ages in an attempt to shed light on the Turks of Anatolia, how they evolved, the dynamics at play, the watersheds within the evolutionary process(es) etc etc. I've just come at a bad time.

bovefex
02-14-2021, 07:55 AM
Unless the Anatolian Greeks are remnants of the Greek Islanders and mainland Greeks, who came to colonise and Hellenise Anatolia after the Iron Age collapse, the descendents of the Greek ruling class, the close circle of the priests and military folk responsible for: a) maintaining the Greek language and culture within; b) spreading the Greek language and culture throughout the farming communities, who were more interested in maximising their yields and trade than anything else, still the case today.


But we know that the Anatolian Greeks have their own genetic profile, even though they almost cluster with certain islanders (EDIT: specifically Greek_Central_Anatolia comes close). At best Anatolian Greeks might be the result of native Anatolians mixing with Ancient Greeks, though the same might also be said for some islanders too.


We know that after the fall of the Pontus Kingdom in 1461, the Greeks of Trabzon resisted assimilation for some 400 years, achieving their short-lived independence in 1830. The Turks of Trabzon, not shown on your plot, very closely related to if not indistinguishable from the Greeks of Trabzon, remain significant outliers to the Turks of Anatolia to this day, despite being some of the most fervent Turkish Nationalists anywhere on the globe. What are the forces at play within the Turks of Trabzon that has combined powerful Turkish nationalist sentiment and preferential selection for Greek genetics?


Sorry for sounding rude, but I don't think I understood a word of what you were trying to say here. Could you please elaborate?


No. We need Lydian samples, we need Hittite samples, we need Ottoman samples, we need Roman samples, we need Achaemenid samples, we need a lot more samples that are not GREEK and we need to, in my opinion, stop trashing ancient samples for being too Turkish and not Greek enough. This is like profiling, in 4020AD, the skeletons found in the palace in Bestepe, dating these to 2020AD, finding no East Asian ancestry and concluding that the people of Rize are representative of all the people of Turkey in 2020AD, silly. Thankfully, a new project has started in Turkey that will profile thousands of skeletons found in Anatolia over the ages in an attempt to shed light on the Turks of Anatolia, how they evolved, the dynamics at play, the watersheds within the evolutionary process(es) etc etc. I've just come at a bad time.


If scientists do manage to find the samples you are asking, won't they be somewhat representative for the region in that time period, as long as it's supported by historical evidence? And with "Greek", I think most people are trying to say pre-Turkic. The ancient sample you are talking about just looks way too much like modern Turks and not enough like other ancient samples from the region, which means it's an outlier. Why it looks like a modern Turk, who knows. It might be the result a native mixing with someone like a Cimmerian, or it might just be a way more modern sample which simply sank (is this the correct term?) into a more ancient layer.

23abc
02-14-2021, 10:07 AM
Unless the Anatolian Greeks are remnants of the Greek Islanders and mainland Greeks, who came to colonise and Hellenise Anatolia after the Iron Age collapse, the descendents of the Greek ruling class, the close circle of the priests and military folk responsible for: a) maintaining the Greek language and culture within; b) spreading the Greek language and culture throughout the farming communities, who were more interested in maximising their yields and trade than anything else, still the case today.

We know that after the fall of the Pontus Kingdom in 1461, the Greeks of Trabzon resisted assimilation for some 400 years, achieving their short-lived independence in 1830. The Turks of Trabzon, not shown on your plot, very closely related to if not indistinguishable from the Greeks of Trabzon, remain significant outliers to the Turks of Anatolia to this day, despite being some of the most fervent Turkish Nationalists anywhere on the globe. What are the forces at play within the Turks of Trabzon that has combined powerful Turkish nationalist sentiment and preferential selection for Greek genetics?

No. We need Lydian samples, we need Hittite samples, we need Ottoman samples, we need Roman samples, we need Achaemenid samples, we need a lot more samples that are not GREEK and we need to, in my opinion, stop trashing ancient samples for being too Turkish and not Greek enough. This is like profiling, in 4020AD, the skeletons found in the palace in Bestepe, dating these to 2020AD, finding no East Asian ancestry and concluding that the people of Rize are representative of all the people of Turkey in 2020AD, silly. Thankfully, a new project has started in Turkey that will profile thousands of skeletons found in Anatolia over the ages in an attempt to shed light on the Turks of Anatolia, how they evolved, the dynamics at play, the watersheds within the evolutionary process(es) etc etc. I've just come at a bad time.

Many parts of western Anatolia were repopulated by Greeks in 1600s-1700s... Izmir being a primary example. I have some Greek matches with roots from Bodrum. Originally I thought they may may have had some continued existence in that area but after speaking with someone more knowledgeable of history it turns out that Greeks only started repopulating Bodrum sometime in the mid 1700s! They were then again forced to leave sometime in early 1900s. As such the Greeks from such places have mixed origins from various Greeks who have migrated there from many different places in the Greek world. And so I don't think anybody should be making conclusions based on the modern profiles of Greeks from such areas, it really says nothing except that they are mixed.

The Cappadocia and Pontus samples are another story, they form consistent genetic clusters and are not of recent mixed origin.

It would be great to have samples from a western Anatolian Greek area that had a continued presence but I'm not sure if any such people/place exist. Perhaps someone more knowledgeable would know about this.

And yes it will be very interesting to see actual samples directly before and after the most important events in Balkan-Anatolia region, in particular the Slavic and Turkic invasions. There are many speculations made everywhere but only wide sampling across Byzantine areas during this time period will answer the question of how much the admixture of Anatolia and the Balkans changed.

Alkaevli
02-14-2021, 10:40 AM
Unless the Anatolian Greeks are remnants of the Greek Islanders and mainland Greeks, who came to colonise and Hellenise Anatolia after the Iron Age collapse.
This is getting ridiculous. If MA2198 represents the bulk of the Iron Age population of Anatolia, then modern Anatolian Greeks must have no pre-Hellenic Anatolian ancestry at all and descend fully from Greek colonists. But somehow, almost magically, they are also distinct both from Ancient Greeks (Mycenaeans and Empuries colonists) and modern mainland Greeks and Greek Islanders. And the fact that they can be modelled as ~80% Bronze Age Anatolian must be merely a coincidence. Great logic indeed.



We know that after the fall of the Pontus Kingdom in 1461, the Greeks of Trabzon resisted assimilation for some 400 years, achieving their short-lived independence in 1830. The Turks of Trabzon, not shown on your plot, very closely related to if not indistinguishable from the Greeks of Trabzon, remain significant outliers to the Turks of Anatolia to this day, despite being some of the most fervent Turkish Nationalists anywhere on the globe. What are the forces at play within the Turks of Trabzon that has combined powerful Turkish nationalist sentiment and preferential selection for Greek genetics?
I'm well aware that Turkish_Trabzon is almost identical to Greek_Trabzon on G25. But how does that have anything to do with our discussion? You are jumping from one subject to another. Most of them are not nationalists as can be seen from the election results. I never get why some members here are prone to get all political all of a sudden. There are plenty of forums out there for that, there is even a subforum here.



No. We need Lydian samples, we need Hittite samples, we need Ottoman samples, we need Roman samples, we need Achaemenid samples, we need a lot more samples that are not GREEK
Yes, the more samples, the better. As a side note, we don't have any Ancient Greek or Roman/Byzantine-era sample from Anatolia either. What's with your passive-agressive behaviour?



and we need to, in my opinion, stop trashing ancient samples for being too Turkish and not Greek enough.
Do you have difficulty interpreting the meaning in sentences? Both MA2197 and MA2198 seem to have outlying genetic profiles, they don't even resemble each other despite being from the same period and location. You are free to use them while modelling yourself of course, I'm sure the output will be very accurate.



This is like profiling, in 4020AD, the skeletons found in the palace in Bestepe, dating these to 2020AD, finding no East Asian ancestry and concluding that the people of Rize are representative of all the people of Turkey in 2020AD, silly.
I'm now sure that you have difficulty interpreting the meaning in sentences. You might be suffering from that brain cell thing you mentioned in one of your previous posts while trying to insult a member. Re-read my previous post. This very part of your post actually supports my point. MA2198 with 13-14% East Eurasian ancestry seems to be far from representing the Hellenistic-period population of Anatolia. The same goes for MA2197, I don't think the bulk of the population of Anatolia during the Iron Age/Hellenistic period was half Hallstat Celt-like genetically.



Thankfully, a new project has started in Turkey that will profile thousands of skeletons found in Anatolia over the ages in an attempt to shed light on the Turks of Anatolia, how they evolved, the dynamics at play, the watersheds within the evolutionary process(es) etc etc. I've just come at a bad time.
I know, and that's very exciting. But I doubt that you will be able to get any good use out of them considering your interpretation skills.

Johnny ola
02-14-2021, 12:53 PM
Unless the Anatolian Greeks are remnants of the Greek Islanders and mainland Greeks, who came to colonise and Hellenise Anatolia after the Iron Age collapse, the descendents of the Greek ruling class, the close circle of the priests and military folk responsible for: a) maintaining the Greek language and culture within; b) spreading the Greek language and culture throughout the farming communities, who were more interested in maximising their yields and trade than anything else, still the case today.

We know that after the fall of the Pontus Kingdom in 1461, the Greeks of Trabzon resisted assimilation for some 400 years, achieving their short-lived independence in 1830. The Turks of Trabzon, not shown on your plot, very closely related to if not indistinguishable from the Greeks of Trabzon, remain significant outliers to the Turks of Anatolia to this day, despite being some of the most fervent Turkish Nationalists anywhere on the globe. What are the forces at play within the Turks of Trabzon that has combined powerful Turkish nationalist sentiment and preferential selection for Greek genetics?

No. We need Lydian samples, we need Hittite samples, we need Ottoman samples, we need Roman samples, we need Achaemenid samples, we need a lot more samples that are not GREEK and we need to, in my opinion, stop trashing ancient samples for being too Turkish and not Greek enough. This is like profiling, in 4020AD, the skeletons found in the palace in Bestepe, dating these to 2020AD, finding no East Asian ancestry and concluding that the people of Rize are representative of all the people of Turkey in 2020AD, silly. Thankfully, a new project has started in Turkey that will profile thousands of skeletons found in Anatolia over the ages in an attempt to shed light on the Turks of Anatolia, how they evolved, the dynamics at play, the watersheds within the evolutionary process(es) etc etc. I've just come at a bad time.

What the genetics of an ethnic group has to Do with their political ideology lol? Erdogan is Also from Rize. So What? He should Not consider himself Turkish or Muslim because he lacks 'Turkoman' dna lol :lol::laugh:

Ajeje Brazorf
02-14-2021, 01:16 PM
The following ancient samples from Turkey are low coverage and shouldn't be on Global25 IMO, there are also TUR_IA_low_res:MA2197 (950 BC) and TUR_Ottoman:MA2196 (1575 AD). As for TUR_IA I find it very unlikely that it really dates back to the Iron Age, at most they will have been contemporary with TUR_Ottoman.


TUR_Alalakh_MLBA:ALA023,0.104717,0.139128,-0.064488,-0.099807,-0.011079,-0.052153,0.001175,-0.014538,-0.00225,0.011845,0.013803,-0.017534,0.001338,-0.004542,-0.012622,0.022805,0.015776,0.005194,0.008547,0.001 126,-0.005366,0.013478,-0.006655,-0.014098,0.007544
TUR_Alalakh_MLBA:ALA024,0.095611,0.138112,-0.079195,-0.094962,-0.016926,-0.022311,0.003055,-0.004846,0.007158,0.012028,-0.005846,0.002248,0.002676,0.019267,-0.02158,0.018032,0.01017,-0.0019,0.002011,-0.007128,0.016471,-0.000124,0.001356,-0.002892,-0.008382
TUR_Alalakh_MLBA:ALA035,0.086506,0.146236,-0.060339,-0.099484,-0.020311,-0.034025,0.013396,0.000692,0.01084,0.011845,0.0146 15,-0.020382,0.021704,-0.001376,-0.009365,0.019491,0.000782,-0.009248,0.005279,-0.001876,0.004367,0.001237,0.001479,-0.001205,0.002036
TUR_Alalakh_MLBA:ALA037,0.09675,0.152329,-0.056568,-0.093993,-0.008309,-0.040439,-0.00611,0.001846,-0.02127,0.007654,0.013153,-0.00045,0.005352,0.007569,-0.002579,0.000265,-0.014212,0.006461,0.006788,-0.001376,-0.014225,0.002968,-0.010846,-0.000482,0.000599
TUR_Alalakh_MLBA:ALA038,0.113823,0.14319,-0.062979,-0.096577,-0.023697,-0.029841,0.012926,0.002077,-0.013294,0.021504,-0.005846,-0.003597,0.028989,-0.006331,-0.022937,0.022805,0.009127,-0.010895,-0.012193,0.013006,0.001497,-0.007419,-0.002711,-0.002048,-0.012813
TUR_Alalakh_MLBA:ALA084,0.080814,0.131003,-0.070522,-0.073644,-0.020927,-0.03765,0.003055,-0.004846,-0.025361,0.009476,0.003085,-0.005995,0.016204,-0.007294,-0.010993,0.023468,0.009127,0.010388,-0.015964,-0.005878,-0.002371,-0.01422,-0.006409,-0.006507,0.016046
TUR_Arslantepe_LC:ART004,0.094473,0.141159,-0.065619,-0.093993,-0.038469,-0.01004,0.009165,-0.011538,-0.010635,0.016583,0.010555,-0.019333,-0.011744,0.003991,-0.020494,-0.002519,-0.008084,-0.005574,0.012193,-0.001,0.000499,0.010263,0.003204,-0.018436,-0.00946
TUR_Arslantepe_LC:ART039,0.102441,0.155376,-0.039598,-0.065892,-0.011079,-0.0251,-0.003995,-0.006461,-0.046427,0.002551,-0.011205,0.001199,-0.027651,-0.004266,-0.020358,-0.00411,0.033769,-0.007221,-0.005279,0.011756,0.003494,0.018053,-0.005423,-0.009037,0.010179
TUR_Barcin_N:I0724,0.117238,0.168578,0.018856,-0.10013,0.052933,-0.047969,-0.00094,-0.004384,0.031088,0.075446,0.008931,0.01139,-0.017691,-0.003303,-0.045059,0.001989,0.041853,0.012922,0.020363,-0.009755,-0.018717,0.004699,-0.007518,-0.001928,-0.008023
TUR_Barcin_N:I0726,0.120652,0.180764,0.00264,-0.104653,0.053548,-0.054663,-0.005875,-0.002308,0.035383,0.088749,0.009743,0.015586,-0.027651,0.006881,-0.040716,-0.037655,-0.001825,0.002914,0.0225,-0.015382,-0.013351,0.007666,-0.004683,0.00253,0.006945
TUR_Barcin_N:I0727,0.114961,0.185842,0.004525,-0.103683,0.036314,-0.053547,-0.00141,-0.008077,0.031088,0.077633,0.005846,0.01109,-0.031813,0.00055,-0.056052,-0.010607,0.022817,0.009122,0.032807,-0.015007,-0.017968,0.005441,-0.016022,-0.007953,0.008023
TUR_Camlibel_Tarlasi_LC:CBT003,0.106994,0.160454,-0.035826,-0.096254,0,-0.035419,0.001645,-0.008538,-0.009613,0.032256,0.015914,0.018583,-0.025421,-0.000275,-0.018865,-0.004906,0.015125,-0.012035,0.012067,-0.022136,0.017095,-0.008285,0.009737,-0.010965,0.00479
TUR_IA_low_res:MA2197,0.112685,0.15436,0.029038,-0.031331,0.031083,-0.011435,-0.015981,-0.020768,-0.002863,0.036629,0.012017,-0.001798,-0.015312,-0.000688,-0.032166,-0.010077,0.021774,-0.004307,0.009804,-0.02001,-0.018842,-0.005193,0.000246,-0.008676,-0.005628
TUR_Ikiztepe_LC:IKI002,0.119514,0.146236,-0.040729,-0.079781,-0.003385,-0.005857,-0.00752,-0.008307,-0.033951,0.028429,-0.009419,0.013938,-0.039246,0.006606,-0.021037,-0.01127,0.015255,0.006714,0.023883,-0.011881,-0.015597,0.001113,-0.005916,0.022292,-0.00467
TUR_Ikiztepe_LC:IKI009,0.099026,0.160454,-0.032432,-0.073321,-0.025543,-0.049921,0.013396,0.005769,-0.026997,0.015126,0.012179,0.009292,-0.009514,0.006606,-0.013979,-0.0179,0.001825,0.007348,-0.002891,-0.009254,-0.015972,-0.005812,0.005669,-0.008796,0.003712
TUR_Ikiztepe_LC:IKI012,0.114961,0.141159,-0.056945,-0.080427,-0.014464,-0.019243,-0.017391,-0.000923,-0.022293,0.016948,-0.001949,0.01109,-0.003568,0.018992,-0.014251,-0.000265,0.032857,-0.009248,0.017849,-0.007754,-0.001497,-0.010634,-0.001725,-0.01217,0.018202
TUR_Ikiztepe_LC:IKI016,0.103579,0.151314,-0.056568,-0.070414,-0.010771,-0.030399,0.012691,-0.014999,-0.043768,0.022233,0.005034,0.012739,-0.029137,0.012111,-0.020629,-0.005967,0.009648,-0.011402,0.016969,-0.013381,0.009608,-0.007296,0.004067,-0.004579,-0.002754
TUR_Ikiztepe_LC:IKI017,0.127482,0.153345,-0.037335,-0.069768,0.007694,-0.030399,0.018096,-0.006923,-0.03211,0.013485,0.006333,0.003447,-0.022299,-0.004679,-0.009908,-0.014983,0.017341,0.011655,0.003142,-0.005878,0.021337,0.002473,-0.013927,0.004097,0.008622
TUR_Ikiztepe_LC:IKI024,0.103579,0.148267,-0.041106,-0.088825,-0.003693,-0.018407,0.002585,-0.006,-0.015339,0.040639,0.014128,-0.007493,-0.026313,0.009221,-0.024973,-0.015248,0.001043,-0.009502,0.015209,-0.023011,-0.015348,0.007666,0.00912,-0.01928,-0.005389
TUR_Ikiztepe_LC:IKI034,0.103579,0.145221,-0.064865,-0.072352,-0.011387,-0.034861,0.0047,0.005077,-0.028224,0.00656,0.024845,0.012289,-0.014569,0.011698,-0.02823,-0.003447,0.01017,0.002534,-0.00264,0.01113,-0.001497,0.00915,-0.000616,-0.015785,-0.008502
TUR_Ikiztepe_LC:IKI036,0.105855,0.166547,-0.05506,-0.070091,-0.014772,-0.026495,0.00705,0.001615,-0.026179,0.023508,0.014453,-0.00015,-0.014123,0.001376,-0.008143,-0.017369,0.021905,0.018623,-0.010182,-0.011005,-0.00262,-0.011376,-0.012941,-0.012773,0.005508
TUR_Ikiztepe_LC:IKI037,0.106994,0.156392,-0.056945,-0.098515,-0.015387,-0.032072,0.01034,0.014999,-0.027611,0.01877,0.003897,0.000899,-0.007433,0.018166,-0.005836,-0.036595,-0.006519,0.010769,0.005279,-0.012881,0.003743,-0.003462,-0.001109,-0.003856,0.016166
TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA_low_res:MA2208,0.103579,0.15436,-0.035449,-0.076228,-0.001539,-0.01506,0.021151,0.002538,-0.000818,0.010752,-0.004384,0.017684,-0.003271,0.020231,-0.008007,-0.006629,-0.014864,0.004561,0.010936,-0.008254,-0.000624,-0.002844,0.005916,-0.001687,-0.007185
TUR_Kumtepe_N:kum6,0.106994,0.174671,-0.015839,-0.077843,0.019696,-0.034304,-0.015746,-0.007154,0.028429,0.055764,0.009094,0.018883,-0.02661,0.018717,-0.027144,-0.012331,0.005998,-0.010895,0.0225,-0.006753,-0.007861,0.001113,-0.006409,-0.003012,0.005748
TUR_Kumtepe_N_low_res:kum4,0.068294,0.103584,0.010 182,-0.030039,0.024312,-0.033467,-0.017156,-0.042691,-0.059516,0.028247,0.006333,-0.035369,0.020218,0.024359,-0.035694,-0.033545,-0.016298,-0.026985,0.041983,0.017008,0.022211,0.012242,0.007 025,0.028799,0.018202
TUR_Ottoman:MA2196,0.085367,-0.004062,0.001131,-0.014212,-0.040315,-0.006693,-0.00329,-0.002538,-0.006136,-0.012939,-0.011692,-0.006145,-0.010258,-0.004266,0.006379,-0.00053,0.01004,-0.00114,0.001634,-0.008629,-0.005865,-0.00136,-0.007888,0.002892,0.00491
TUR_Tell_Kurdu_EC:KRD001,0.102441,0.17264,-0.025267,-0.118542,0.027697,-0.065539,0.00047,-0.003231,0.025361,0.047746,0.015589,-0.004946,-0.004906,0.009083,-0.042616,-0.014983,0.006258,-0.000253,0.014958,-0.012006,-0.0141,0.001855,0,-0.006145,-0.004431
TUR_Tell_Kurdu_EC:KRD004,0.102441,0.173656,-0.02489,-0.144059,0.032314,-0.050758,-0.031726,0.014307,0.013294,0.052484,0.011205,0.003 897,0.013082,-0.006606,-0.036509,-0.006099,0.04759,0.0019,0.022751,0.007504,-0.002995,0.001113,0.025019,-0.000241,-0.013771
TUR_Tell_Kurdu_MC:KRD002,0.102441,0.147252,-0.046009,-0.095608,0.010156,-0.051316,-0.003055,-0.017076,0.011044,0.047199,0.011205,-0.004796,0.012487,-0.004266,-0.040173,-0.002254,0.027902,0.001267,0.004525,0.005628,-0.008735,0.006183,-0.018487,-0.009278,0.00934
TUR_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N:Tep006,0.110408,0.173656,-0.011314,-0.10756,0.024312,-0.04518,-0.00799,0,0.026588,0.058862,0.002273,-0.000599,-0.011447,0.003028,-0.027551,-0.025192,-0.00013,0.008615,-0.015084,-0.005378,0.002371,0,-0.012448,-0.00241,0.002754
TUR_Titris_Hoyuk_EBA:TIT021,0.105855,0.151314,-0.072407,-0.090763,-0.016311,-0.031515,0.004465,-0.000692,-0.022907,0.014032,0.006008,0.016335,-0.004906,0.014175,-0.012351,0.007955,0.004172,0.000887,0.016592,0.005 628,0.008859,-0.004575,-0.011955,0.008555,-0.006945

bovefex
02-14-2021, 01:20 PM
On a slightly related note, does anyone here know of a good custom Bronze Age calculator to model Anatolians and populations from environs?

Andrewid
02-14-2021, 02:39 PM
But we know that the Anatolian Greeks have their own genetic profile, even though they almost cluster with certain islanders (EDIT: specifically Greek_Central_Anatolia comes close). At best Anatolian Greeks might be the result of native Anatolians mixing with Ancient Greeks, though the same might also be said for some islanders too.

Agreed. The ancient Greek/ancient Anatolian admixture would apply in differing proportions in Cappadocians, Dodecanesians, Cretans and Cypriots. We know that farming may well have been introduced to these regions by Anatolians, from where it spread to southern Greece (the island hopping route). But migrations continued from Anatolia since. Lycia, Pamphylia and Cilicia are all adjacent areas after all.

Some linguists have identified such a preponderance of non-Greek elements in Pamphylian Greek, that they suggest a language shift from a majority non-Greek-speaking population. And the word 'Παμφυλια' itself in Greek literary texts shows how complex the ethnic situation was in Anatolia at the time: 'the land of many tribes'.


The Cappadocia and Pontus samples are another story, they form consistent genetic clusters and are not of recent mixed origin.

The Alkaevli pca is as good as any I've seen, and because it's not too cluttered, it shows the main Macedonia-Cyprus Greek genetic cline. Of course, we are not talking about genetic homogeneity here, but a series of contiguous clusters, which sometimes intersect. On the other hand, I would expect Turkish Cypriots, apart from some outliers from both communities, to cluster with Greek Cypriots.

Pontus it seems is an outlier for the majority of other Greeks and Turks for distinct reasons.

bovefex
02-14-2021, 03:37 PM
By the way, do we know whether or not (South) Slavs expanded into west Anatolia? Because Turkish_Northwest seems to really enjoy the inclusion of Serbian in its model:

Target: Turkish_Northwest
Distance: 1.3089% / 0.01308871
56.6 Greek_Central_Anatolia
30.0 TUR_Ottoman
13.4 Serbian

vs Serbian replaced with Greek_Kos:

Target: Turkish_Northwest
Distance: 1.9111% / 0.01911129
41.0 Greek_Central_Anatolia
31.4 TUR_Ottoman
27.6 Greek_Kos

Also, an example with a Mycenean-like sample (both Serbian and Greek_Kos replaced)

Target: Turkish_Northwest
Distance: 2.0770% / 0.02077022
66.8 Greek_Central_Anatolia
31.6 TUR_Ottoman
1.6 Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2

I think this is interesting, because Turkish_Northwest scores a very decent amount of Steppe, even when accounting for the fact that is also scores more Central Asian (thus extra Steppe from there). And seeing as the Ancient Greek-like ancestry doesn't seem to be all that much and also seeing as Serbian a big amount of Steppe, ~2x that of Greek_Kos, I'm inclined to believe that western Turks might partially descend from (South) Slavic groups.

For reference, here is Turkish_Southwest:


Target: Turkish_Southwest
Distance: 1.6704% / 0.01670433
63.8 Greek_Central_Anatolia
29.8 TUR_Ottoman
6.4 Serbian


Target: Turkish_Southwest
Distance: 1.7667% / 0.01766719
53.2 Greek_Central_Anatolia
30.4 TUR_Ottoman
16.4 Greek_Kos

Target: Turkish_Southwest
Distance: 1.8336% / 0.01833625
69.4 Greek_Central_Anatolia
30.6 TUR_Ottoman
0.0 Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2


The difference in distances is less mind-blowing this time around, but the ancestry amounts are interesting.

Greekscholar
02-15-2021, 01:26 AM
By the way, do we know whether or not (South) Slavs expanded into west Anatolia? Because Turkish_Northwest seems to really enjoy the inclusion of Serbian in its model:

Target: Turkish_Northwest
Distance: 1.3089% / 0.01308871
56.6 Greek_Central_Anatolia
30.0 TUR_Ottoman
13.4 Serbian

vs Serbian replaced with Greek_Kos:

Target: Turkish_Northwest
Distance: 1.9111% / 0.01911129
41.0 Greek_Central_Anatolia
31.4 TUR_Ottoman
27.6 Greek_Kos

Also, an example with a Mycenean-like sample (both Serbian and Greek_Kos replaced)

Target: Turkish_Northwest
Distance: 2.0770% / 0.02077022
66.8 Greek_Central_Anatolia
31.6 TUR_Ottoman
1.6 Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2

I think this is interesting, because Turkish_Northwest scores a very decent amount of Steppe, even when accounting for the fact that is also scores more Central Asian (thus extra Steppe from there). And seeing as the Ancient Greek-like ancestry doesn't seem to be all that much and also seeing as Serbian a big amount of Steppe, ~2x that of Greek_Kos, I'm inclined to believe that western Turks might partially descend from (South) Slavic groups.

For reference, here is Turkish_Southwest:


Target: Turkish_Southwest
Distance: 1.6704% / 0.01670433
63.8 Greek_Central_Anatolia
29.8 TUR_Ottoman
6.4 Serbian


Target: Turkish_Southwest
Distance: 1.7667% / 0.01766719
53.2 Greek_Central_Anatolia
30.4 TUR_Ottoman
16.4 Greek_Kos

Target: Turkish_Southwest
Distance: 1.8336% / 0.01833625
69.4 Greek_Central_Anatolia
30.6 TUR_Ottoman
0.0 Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2


The difference in distances is less mind-blowing this time around, but the ancestry amounts are interesting.

Interesting. I couldn't duplicate your model, my fits were much worse.

One thing to consider is that the Slavic admixture was brought to this region by Mainland Greeks and/or Balkan Muslims during the re-population events discussed in this thread.

A small elephant in the room here; it is possible that Greek Islanders, especially Dodecanese islanders have little direct ancestry from Mycenaeans. We need better samples to make this conclusion, but the models being discussed where Island Greeks end up as Anatolian BA and Levant majority, with smaller amounts of Mycenaean and Slavic/Steppe-like ancestry could be correct. There are threads devoted to this topic if anyone wants to explore more. This may matter to this thread because the common genetic ancestry between modern Turks and Greeks sure seems to be Anatolian BA rather than Mycenean like, which is why these models prefer Anatolian and Dodecanese Greek populations + Central Asiatic groups and only occasionally use more mixed Mainland/Island genetic groups like the Smyrniote Greeks.

bovefex
02-15-2021, 07:45 AM
Interesting. I couldn't duplicate your model, my fits were much worse.

One thing to consider is that the Slavic admixture was brought to this region by Mainland Greeks and/or Balkan Muslims during the re-population events discussed in this thread.

A small elephant in the room here; it is possible that Greek Islanders, especially Dodecanese islanders have little direct ancestry from Mycenaeans. We need better samples to make this conclusion, but the models being discussed where Island Greeks end up as Anatolian BA and Levant majority, with smaller amounts of Mycenaean and Slavic/Steppe-like ancestry could be correct. There are threads devoted to this topic if anyone wants to explore more. This may matter to this thread because the common genetic ancestry between modern Turks and Greeks sure seems to be Anatolian BA rather than Mycenean like, which is why these models prefer Anatolian and Dodecanese Greek populations + Central Asiatic groups and only occasionally use more mixed Mainland/Island genetic groups like the Smyrniote Greeks.

Sorry for not being clear enough. I used the first Ottoman samples in the individuals sheet. The second one seems to have been mixed, which makes the average of the two also a less-than-good representation of Turkic heritage. Really sorry about that.

As for mainland Greeks, if that were the case, I think the western Turks would have to score more Empuries2, unless it gets eaten. Aside from that, I don’t think the Balkan re-population was such a drastic event that it had an effect on the average, but I could be wrong.

And indeed, the biggest part of the common heritage between Turks and Greeks seems to be Anatolian, which is probably
the Byzantine heritage. The Anatolian population probably always outnumbered Greece’s, too.

By the way, could you possibly link to that thread? It seems interesting. Would you also be willing to elaborate on when Mainland Greeks are used in models? I’ve never seen that happen.

bovefex
02-15-2021, 08:57 AM
For reference, here are the models with other Turkic averages, which I assume are good proxies (if not, please correct me):


Target: Turkish_Northwest
Distance: 1.0125% / 0.01012518
57.2 Greek_Central_Anatolia
17.0 KAZ_Karakhanid
14.6 Serbian
10.6 KAZ_Karluk
0.6 KAZ_Kimak
0.0 Greek_Kos
0.0 Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2
0.0 KAZ_Nomad_MA


Target: Turkish_Southwest
Distance: 1.4832% / 0.01483212
65.6 Greek_Central_Anatolia
26.4 KAZ_Karakhanid
7.0 Serbian
1.0 KAZ_Kimak
0.0 Greek_Kos
0.0 Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2
0.0 KAZ_Karluk
0.0 KAZ_Nomad_MA



Target: Turkish_Northwest
Distance: 1.5978% / 0.01597811
41.6 Greek_Central_Anatolia
28.2 Greek_Kos
14.0 KAZ_Kimak
8.0 KAZ_Karakhanid
7.4 KAZ_Karluk
0.8 KAZ_Nomad_MA
0.0 Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2

Target: Turkish_Southwest
Distance: 1.5656% / 0.01565555
53.8 Greek_Central_Anatolia
20.8 KAZ_Karakhanid
17.8 Greek_Kos
7.0 KAZ_Kimak
0.6 KAZ_Nomad_MA
0.0 Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2
0.0 KAZ_Karluk

Target: Turkish_Northwest
Distance: 1.7699% / 0.01769890
69.4 Greek_Central_Anatolia
16.2 KAZ_Kimak
7.0 KAZ_Nomad_MA
6.4 KAZ_Karakhanid
1.0 Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2
0.0 KAZ_Karluk

Target: Turkish_Southwest
Distance: 1.6405% / 0.01640452
71.8 Greek_Central_Anatolia
14.0 KAZ_Karakhanid
8.2 KAZ_Kimak
6.0 KAZ_Nomad_MA
0.0 Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2
0.0 KAZ_Karluk

Though when the KAZ_Karakhanid is removed, Turkish_Southwest does seem to score almost ~2 Greek_Kos, though the removal of it only worsens the fit by a mere 0.0005%:


Target: Turkish_Southwest
Distance: 1.5864% / 0.01586378
65.8 Greek_Central_Anatolia
13.6 KAZ_Nomad_MA
9.4 KAZ_Karluk
5.0 Serbian
4.4 KAZ_Kimak
1.8 Greek_Kos
0.0 Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2

Target: Turkish_Southwest
Distance: 1.5869% / 0.01586860
67.2 Greek_Central_Anatolia
13.4 KAZ_Nomad_MA
9.8 KAZ_Karluk
5.4 Serbian
4.2 KAZ_Kimak
0.0 Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2

Liquid
02-15-2021, 08:57 AM
But we know that the Anatolian Greeks have their own genetic profile, even though they almost cluster with certain islanders (EDIT: specifically Greek_Central_Anatolia comes close). At best Anatolian Greeks might be the result of native Anatolians mixing with Ancient Greeks, though the same might also be said for some islanders too.



Sorry for sounding rude, but I don't think I understood a word of what you were trying to say here. Could you please elaborate?



If scientists do manage to find the samples you are asking, won't they be somewhat representative for the region in that time period, as long as it's supported by historical evidence? And with "Greek", I think most people are trying to say pre-Turkic. The ancient sample you are talking about just looks way too much like modern Turks and not enough like other ancient samples from the region, which means it's an outlier. Why it looks like a modern Turk, who knows. It might be the result a native mixing with someone like a Cimmerian, or it might just be a way more modern sample which simply sank (is this the correct term?) into a more ancient layer.

The Trabzon Turks may be the last in the line of Turkified people, so the timeframe we are dealing with is shorter, but they have had plenty of time to intermarry with the rest of Turkey, which, on the whole, it looks like, they have not. I don't understand why this has been the case but I hoped to use this an example to demonstrate how one fraction (Trabzon Turks) of a whole (rest of Turkey) can act in a way that preserves and reproduces their unique makeup, for a significant period of time, ensuring their genetic separation from the whole, despite there being strong forces at play acting opposite to this, such as a strong sense of national allegiance combined with the absence of language, cultural and geographic barriers.

About your second question, I'd like to ask one that interests me, how much control did the administrative groups of Anatolia, during the past +2000 years, have over the general populace, specifically the trickle of people carrying Eastern Ancestry from the Pontic Steppes? My thought is, it didn't. Turkey suffered with a similar problem, much of Europe did too, until Turkey built a wall and installed monitoring technology along its Syrian, Iraqi and Iranian borders.

Yes, that sample can be modelled as something like a Cimmerian, found in an Iron Age / Hellenistic stratum. The Greeks did colonise Crimea in around 700BC, they called it the "Cimmerian Bosphorus", at some point they even developed relations with the Vikings of all people to counter the Iranians, I don't suppose that this was accompanied by a ban on the movement of people. So outlier? Maybe, but she could be indicative of something that began way before 1071, e.g. the trickle of people from the Steppes which we know has been swimming in Eastern ancestry, the truth is I don't know because what follows is some 2000 years of, which to me looks like, the dark ages of Anatolian human genetics.

Liquid
02-15-2021, 09:52 AM
By the way, do we know whether or not (South) Slavs expanded into west Anatolia? Because Turkish_Northwest seems to really enjoy the inclusion of Serbian in its model:

Target: Turkish_Northwest
Distance: 1.3089% / 0.01308871
56.6 Greek_Central_Anatolia
30.0 TUR_Ottoman
13.4 Serbian

vs Serbian replaced with Greek_Kos:

Target: Turkish_Northwest
Distance: 1.9111% / 0.01911129
41.0 Greek_Central_Anatolia
31.4 TUR_Ottoman
27.6 Greek_Kos

Also, an example with a Mycenean-like sample (both Serbian and Greek_Kos replaced)

Target: Turkish_Northwest
Distance: 2.0770% / 0.02077022
66.8 Greek_Central_Anatolia
31.6 TUR_Ottoman
1.6 Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2

I think this is interesting, because Turkish_Northwest scores a very decent amount of Steppe, even when accounting for the fact that is also scores more Central Asian (thus extra Steppe from there). And seeing as the Ancient Greek-like ancestry doesn't seem to be all that much and also seeing as Serbian a big amount of Steppe, ~2x that of Greek_Kos, I'm inclined to believe that western Turks might partially descend from (South) Slavic groups.

For reference, here is Turkish_Southwest:


Target: Turkish_Southwest
Distance: 1.6704% / 0.01670433
63.8 Greek_Central_Anatolia
29.8 TUR_Ottoman
6.4 Serbian


Target: Turkish_Southwest
Distance: 1.7667% / 0.01766719
53.2 Greek_Central_Anatolia
30.4 TUR_Ottoman
16.4 Greek_Kos

Target: Turkish_Southwest
Distance: 1.8336% / 0.01833625
69.4 Greek_Central_Anatolia
30.6 TUR_Ottoman
0.0 Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2


The difference in distances is less mind-blowing this time around, but the ancestry amounts are interesting.

Why not add some Scythian to the mix.

Target: Turkish_Northwest
Distance: 0.8679% / 0.00867895 | R3P
53.4 Greek_Central_Anatolia
32.2 TUR_Ottoman
14.4 Scythian_UKR

bovefex
02-15-2021, 10:02 AM
Why not add some Scythian to the mix.

Target: Turkish_Northwest
Distance: 0.8679% / 0.00867895 | R3P
53.4 Greek_Central_Anatolia
32.2 TUR_Ottoman
14.4 Scythian_UKR

Definitely interesting, though I wonder how historically accurate this is. I mean, if Anatolian Turks do have Scythian-like ancestry (which they in my opinion most definitely do), it's most probably through their Central Asian side.

Xeon
02-15-2021, 01:14 PM
Definitely interesting, though I wonder how historically accurate this is. I mean, if Anatolian Turks do have Scythian-like ancestry (which they in my opinion most definitely do), it's most probably through their Central Asian side.

Scythian samples from ukraine are sampled as 50-60% northern european and the rest being west asian, most probably CHG. Slavs get quiet a lot of Scythian admixtures in calculators. On several GEDmatches, Scythian remains are sampled to be closest to modern north europeans, like swedes and norwiegen. Their ancestry went hand in hand with the north eastern european CW culture

Western scythians / sarmatians barely had any non western eurasian admixture, infact none. while the eastern ones from around central and eastern kazakhstan had some east asian.

Turkish northwest also gets serbian, as illustrated above. The Scythian component is there to compensate for any southern slavic admixture north western samples may have

bovefex
02-15-2021, 01:20 PM
Scythian samples from ukraine are sampled as 50-60% northern european and the rest being west asian, most probably CHG. Slavs get quiet a lot of Scythian admixtures in calculators.

Western scythians / sarmatians barely had any non western eurasian admixture, infact none. while the eastern ones from around central and eastern kazakhstan had some east asian.

I didn't say Scythians have East Eurasian; in fact, I was thinking of a Scythian-like group that is pure Western Eurasian, but what you are saying might indeed be true.


Turkish northwest also gets serbian, as illustrated above. The Scythian component is there to compensate for any southern slavic admixture north western samples may have

Very well. In any case, in my opinion Northwestern Turks definitely have Slavic admixture, which I think comes from a South Slavic-like group, instead of a Greek group that is part South Slavic.

Xeon
02-15-2021, 01:22 PM
I didn't say Scythians have East Eurasian; in fact, I was thinking of a Scythian-like group that is pure Western Eurasian, but what you are saying might indeed be true.



Very well. In any case, in my opinion Northwestern Turks definitely have Slavic admixture, which I think comes from a South Slavic-like group, instead of a Greek group that is part South Slavic.

Aren't there like 2 million bosniaks living in western turkey? That might be the reason

bovefex
02-15-2021, 01:24 PM
Aren't there like 2 million bosniaks living in western turkey? That might be the reason

I am not a good source for this kind of information, but I have a feeling that somebody who has Bosniak ancestry would also know it. As far as I know, the Turkis_Northwest samples are provided by the TurkishDNAProject, which has strict sample criteria, if my memory serves.

Greekscholar
02-15-2021, 02:45 PM
Sorry for not being clear enough. I used the first Ottoman samples in the individuals sheet. The second one seems to have been mixed, which makes the average of the two also a less-than-good representation of Turkic heritage. Really sorry about that.

As for mainland Greeks, if that were the case, I think the western Turks would have to score more Empuries2, unless it gets eaten. Aside from that, I don’t think the Balkan re-population was such a drastic event that it had an effect on the average, but I could be wrong.

And indeed, the biggest part of the common heritage between Turks and Greeks seems to be Anatolian, which is probably
the Byzantine heritage. The Anatolian population probably always outnumbered Greece’s, too.

By the way, could you possibly link to that thread? It seems interesting. Would you also be willing to elaborate on when Mainland Greeks are used in models? I’ve never seen that happen.

https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?15180-How-genetically-similar-are-Modern-Greeks-to-the-ancient-ones/page72&highlight=ancient+greeks

Here is a very long one that goes back to 2018. The newer content is probably more relevant.

As for the bolded, I have seen a few models here, and we have discussed, the Smyrniote Greeks. They are a mix of Island and Mainland genetics, with most of the G25 samples falling inbetween Crete and Laconia on a PCA. So that showing up in your models could account for the Slavic-like ancestry you are seeing as well as Aegean-like ancestry.

Empuries *should* be there in a model if Mainland Greek ancestry is present, but as you say it could be eaten up by other samples, especially since you have some modern Greek Island samples that sometimes show up.

bovefex
02-15-2021, 02:50 PM
Empuries *should* be there in a model if Mainland Greek ancestry is present, but as you say it could be eaten up by other samples, especially since you have some modern Greek Island samples that sometimes show up.

Now that I think about, what could actually eat it up in my previous models? Greek_Central_Anatolia should be different enough and the Turkic obviously can't eat something like that up.

Johnny ola
02-15-2021, 02:58 PM
https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?15180-How-genetically-similar-are-Modern-Greeks-to-the-ancient-ones/page72&highlight=ancient+greeks

Here is a very long one that goes back to 2018. The newer content is probably more relevant.

As for the bolded, I have seen a few models here, and we have discussed, the Smyrniote Greeks. They are a mix of Island and Mainland genetics, with most of the G25 samples falling inbetween Crete and Laconia on a PCA. So that showing up in your models could account for the Slavic-like ancestry you are seeing as well as Aegean-like ancestry.

Empuries *should* be there in a model if Mainland Greek ancestry is present, but as you say it could be eaten up by other samples, especially since you have some modern Greek Island samples that sometimes show up.



Indeed.Greek mainlanders usually score more Empuries2 than Greek islanders.Izmir Greeks,Cretans,Dodecannese,North Aegean islanders,Cappadocian Greeks and Cypriots are highly Bronze Age Anatolian like.Mainland Greeks tend to score sometimes high Empuries2 but even them require something west asian in their modelings.

bovefex
02-15-2021, 03:03 PM
Indeed.Greek mainlanders usually score more Empuries2 than Greek islanders.Izmir Greeks,Cretans,Dodecannese,North Aegean islanders,Cappadocian Greeks and Cypriots are highly Bronze Age Anatolian like.Mainland Greeks tend to score sometimes high Empuries2 but even them require something west asian in their modelings.

Are Mainlanders also often modeled with pre- or post-Slavic Balkan samples? The exclusion thereof might lead to Empuries2 having to compensate.

Johnny ola
02-15-2021, 03:07 PM
Are Mainlanders also often modeled with pre- or post-Slavic Balkan samples? The exclusion thereof might lead to Empuries2 having to compensate.

With exception the Bulgarian IA and the other IA sample from Croatia we have nothing else to model.HRV IA is a very northern sample and most Greeks do not prefer it.The IA sample from Bulgaria(witch is Thracian) is not that different from the Empuries2.When we are going to have more samples from balkans it will be easier to understand the Pre- or post Slavic balkan samples.But if you want my estimation 33-46% is the Slavic input among Greek mainlanders,depends individual and region.Usually northern Greece is higher admixed with Balto-Slavic drift.

Greekscholar
02-15-2021, 03:09 PM
Now that I think about, what could actually eat it up in my previous models? Greek_Central_Anatolia should be different enough and the Turkic obviously can't eat something like that up.

The Kos sample could eat a little. Not sure about Serbia proper, but some of the IA Balkan populations can overfit with each other, and Empuries does pop in these Serb. models, so that is a possibility (I am sure there are better Serb models out there :) ). I would agree about the Central Anatolian Greek samples and your Turkic ones as well, I couldn't model them with Empuries.

Target: Serbian
Distance: 1.6476% / 0.01647598
48.2 Baltic_LTU_BA
43.0 Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2
7.8 Anatolia_Isparta_EBA
1.0 Han_NChina

Target: Serbian
Distance: 1.2334% / 0.01233394
59.6 HUN_Avar_Szolad
26.6 Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2
8.6 BGR_IA
4.6 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_IA
0.4 Levant_Canaanite_MBA
0.2 Han_NChina

bovefex
02-15-2021, 03:10 PM
With exception the Bulgarian IA and the other IA sample from Croatia we have nothing else to model.HRV IA is a very northern sample and most Greeks do not prefer it.The IA sample from Bulgaria(witch is Thracian) is not that different from the Empuries2.When we are going to have more samples from balkans it will be easier to understand the Pre- or post Slavic balkan samples.But if you want my estimation 33-46% is the Slavic input among Greek mainlanders,depends individual and region.Usually northern Greece is higher admixed with Balto-Slavic drift.

I see. So the inclusion of both a Balkan and a Myceanean sample would make them eat into each other? Also, is your estimation the South Slavic input, or the pure Slavic?

bovefex
02-15-2021, 03:12 PM
The Kos sample could eat a little. Not sure about Serbia proper, but some of the IA Balkan populations can overfit with each other, and Empuries does pop in these Serb. models, so that is a possibility (I am sure there are better Serb models out there :) ). I would agree about the Central Anatolian Greek samples and your Turkic ones as well, I couldn't model them with Empuries.

Target: Serbian
Distance: 1.6476% / 0.01647598
48.2 Baltic_LTU_BA
43.0 Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2
7.8 Anatolia_Isparta_EBA
1.0 Han_NChina

Target: Serbian
Distance: 1.2334% / 0.01233394
59.6 HUN_Avar_Szolad
26.6 Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2
8.6 BGR_IA
4.6 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_IA
0.4 Levant_Canaanite_MBA
0.2 Han_NChina



But even when you remove the Serbian and Greek_Kos samples, Western Turks still score little-to-none Empuries2, which might mean that the pre-Turkic population of that region might not have been any more Myceanean-admixed than Central Anatolian Greeks, right?

Greekscholar
02-15-2021, 03:21 PM
But even when you remove the Serbian and Greek_Kos samples, Western Turks still score little-to-none Empuries2, which might mean that the pre-Turkic population of that region might not have been any more Myceanean-admixed than Central Anatolian Greeks, right?

It is certainly possible. This is the same general region that has been discussed as being repopulated in the last 300-400 years, right? If so that would make it more difficult to know the genetics of the region in pre-Ottoman times.

Johnny ola
02-15-2021, 03:27 PM
I see. So the inclusion of both a Balkan and a Myceanean sample would make them eat into each other? Also, is your estimation the South Slavic input, or the pure Slavic?


Yes pretty much.Personally i don't expect to see huge diffrences between Ancient Greeks and Paleobalkaners.Maybe a little bit more steppe among balkan folks and less CHG/Iran N but overall EEF.The point is that even modern balkaners and more specific South Slavs have also west asian mix.Witch means before the Slavic expansion even the balkans had come in contact with anatolian like populations.It is very likely the whole provinces under the Roman Empire to had received something like the Rome Imperial samples.Samples from Illyricum province and Moesia would help a lot.Now,when you model all these people from balkans and Greece its easy to compare the percentages with using a balto-slavic drift and something like the Empuries2,BLG IA,HRV IA.It will help you to see the native element and the admixture witch is leaning towards eastern europe.Even in PCA's you can see that most balkan groups inclunding Greeks have a leaning towards eastern europe.

bovefex
02-15-2021, 03:28 PM
It is certainly possible. This is the same general region that has been discussed as being repopulated in the last 300-400 years, right? If so that would make it more difficult to know the genetics of the region in pre-Ottoman times.

I don't know have much knowledge concerning the possible repopulation, but these results might indicate that not only Central Anatolians, but also Western Anatolians, many Aegean Islanders and Cypriots derive the majority of their ancestry from ancient Anatolians, which is kind of ironic in my opinion, seeing as all those regions either were at one point in time or still are completely culturally Greek, which kind of makes Anatolia DNA the thing that binds all Greeks together, lol.

bovefex
02-15-2021, 03:30 PM
Yes pretty much.Personally i don't expect to see huge diffrences between Ancient Greeks and Paleobalkaners.Maybe a little bit more steppe among balkan folks and less CHG/Iran N but overall EEF.The point is that even modern balkaners and more specific South Slavs have also west asian mix.Witch means before the Slavic expansion even the balkans had come in contact with anatolian like populations.It is very likely the whole provinces under the Roman Empire to had received something like the Rome Imperial samples.Samples from Illyricum province and Moesia would help a lot.Now,when you model all these people from balkans and Greece its easy to compare the percentages with using a balto-slavic drift and something like the Empuries2,BLG IA,HRV IA.It will help you to see the native element and the admixture witch is leaning towards eastern europe.Even in PCA's you can see that most balkan groups inclunding Greeks have a leaning towards eastern europe.

By the way, is there a reason why all those Imperial Roman samples look so 'Greco-Anatolian'?

Johnny ola
02-15-2021, 03:34 PM
By the way, is there a reason why all those Imperial Roman samples look so 'Greco-Anatolian'?

Imperial Rome was very west asian admixed.You had an 'east med' profile and some individuals had even Mesopotamian,Eastern Anatolian,Levantine and even Pontic Greek like genetics.Witch means mass repopulations/migrations from the eastern parts of the empire to Italy.I think something similar took place in Greece,Balkans etc.In Italy ofc it changed with the barbarian invasion.I think the Slavs in balkans played a similar role...

bovefex
02-15-2021, 03:37 PM
Imperial Rome was very west asian admixed.You had an 'east med' profile and some individuals had even Mesopotamian,Eastern Anatolian,Levantine and even Pontic Greek like genetics.Witch means mass repopulations/migrations from the eastern parts of the empire to Italy.I think something similar took place in Greece,Balkans etc.In Italy ofc it changed with the barbarian invasion.I think the Slavs in balkans played a similar role...

Did the general population have an 'East Med' profile, or were only certain individual shifted that way? Because there seem to be a lot (compared to others, at least) of samples from that region in that time.

Johnny ola
02-15-2021, 03:41 PM
Did the general population have an 'East Med' profile, or were only certain individual shifted that way? Because there seem to be a lot (compared others, at least) of samples from that region in that time.

There is a whole paper-study about it...the Roman paper.I am not sure if all the people were like that,but i am pretty sure(taking serious also the samples we have),there were many people being west asian admixed.Take as an example modern Italians.South-Central Italy has west asian mix from the Imperial times.And i would say that the barbarian invasions from the north decrease the west asian mix....otherwise things might have been different.

Leper
02-15-2021, 03:42 PM
In order to figure out the native admix among the Northwest Turks we still need Iron Age Thracian (Bithynian, Frigian etc.) samples. No need to jump into a conclusion and call it "Slavic" yet.

Johnny ola
02-15-2021, 03:44 PM
In order to figure out the native admix among the Northwest Turks we still need Iron Age Thracian (Bithynian, Frigian etc.) samples. No need to jump into a conclusion and call it "Slavic" yet.

Checking the lineages there,i will connect these R1b markers with either Thracians or Phrygians.It is also well known that these lands were inhabit by Thracian tribes.

bovefex
02-15-2021, 03:49 PM
Definitely true, it very well might be Thracian(though wouldn't Central Anatolians have an amount of that as well?). Anyway, I think we can conclude that the additional admixture isn't Ancient Greek in nature. I just though of using other samples, because I saw you guys' website using Greek_Kos, but Western Turks scored almost no Empuries in my models.

By the way, couldn't BGR_IA be used as a proxy?

bovefex
02-15-2021, 03:50 PM
Checking the lineages there,i will connect these R1b markers with either Thracians or Phrygians.It is also well known that these lands were inhabit by Thracian tribes.

Which subclade of R1b do you think those would be?

Johnny ola
02-15-2021, 03:53 PM
Which subclade of R1b do you think those would be?

They are yamnaya like if i remember well.

bovefex
02-15-2021, 03:54 PM
They are yamnaya like if i remember well.

Which is...?

Johnny ola
02-15-2021, 03:55 PM
Definitely true, it very well might be Thracian(though wouldn't Central Anatolians have an amount of that as well?). Anyway, I think we can conclude that the additional admixture isn't Ancient Greek in nature. I just though of using other samples, because I saw you guys' website using Greek_Kos, but Western Turks scored almost no Empuries in my models.

By the way, couldn't BGR_IA be used as a proxy?



Cappadocian Greeks are the most native and conservative group in Anatolia.They are mostly Bronze Age Anatolian with something steppe(no idea from where it comes from).You can use whatever you like or you prefer.But if you want my opinion West Anatolian Turks are something like between Greek Izmir and Greek Kos and the 'Turkoman' associated admixture.

Johnny ola
02-15-2021, 03:57 PM
Which is...?

I think z2103 or something.

bovefex
02-15-2021, 04:00 PM
Cappadocian Greeks are the most native and conservative group in Anatolia.They are mostly Bronze Age Anatolian with something steppe(no idea from where it comes from).You can use whatever you like or you prefer.But if you want my opinion West Anatolian Turks are something like between Greek Izmir and Greek Kos and the 'Turkoman' associated admixture.

Wouldn't it make a lot of sense for the Steppe to come from Phrygians and the like? And also, the algorithm still gives Serbian the preference in models, so how do you come at that conclusion?

EDIT: The conclusion that Western Turks' Anatolian admixture is somewhere between Izmir and Kos.

Johnny ola
02-15-2021, 04:04 PM
Wouldn't it make a lot of sense for the Steppe to come from Phrygians and the like? And also, the algorithm still gives Serbian the preference in models, so how do you come at that conclusion?

The steppe in who?Cappadocian Greeks?Maybe but we need samples for it.Bronze Age Anatolia lacks any steppe...so it is very likely to arrived later maybe during the IA,or with Galatians,or with hellenistic or even roman/byzantines times with Slavs.The algorithm will pick anything related with similar DNA especially if it contains something like EEF+Steppe.

bovefex
02-15-2021, 04:11 PM
The steppe in who?Cappadocian Greeks?Maybe but we need samples for it.Bronze Age Anatolia lacks any steppe...so it is very likely to arrived later maybe during the IA,or with Galatians,or with hellenistic or even roman/byzantines times with Slavs.The algorithm will pick anything related with similar DNA especially if it contains something like EEF+Steppe.

Or a combination of (almost) all of them. After all, they all also have to have been heavily Anatolian-admixed, which also seems to be the main component of Bronze Age Anatolians. For example, BGR_IA seems to have been ~25%, which mean for Cappadocians Greeks to have become ~10% Steppe, they would have to be 40% BGR_IA like. If the immigrants were ~50% Steppe, Cappadocians would still be almost ~20% non-BA Anatolian. The Ancient Greek samples seem to have been even less than BGR_IA, so your previous point about Cappadocian Greeks being almost exclusively BA Anatolian-like doesn't make much sense to me.

Johnny ola
02-15-2021, 04:14 PM
Or a combination of (almost) all of them. After all, they all also have been heavily Anatolian-admixed, which also seems to be the main component of Bronze Age Anatolians.

It is very hard to say from where exactly their steppe is coming from.It is not more than 10-12% btw.Keep in mind that some Turks from Central Anatolia carry Celtic lineages from Galatians.It is very likely Galatians to assilimated there and left their impact somehow.Samples from Iron Age Anatolia and Byzantine Anatolia will solve many issues with Anatolian genetics.

bovefex
02-15-2021, 04:16 PM
It is very hard to say from where exactly their steppe is coming from.It is not more than 10-12% btw.Keep in mind that some Turks from Central Anatolia carry Celtic lineages from Galatians.It is very likely Galatians to assilimated there and left their impact somehow.Samples from Iron Age Anatolia and Byzantine Anatolia will solve many issues with Anatolian genetics.

What are those lineages, by the way? Which subclade?

Also, I edited the post you quoted, so you might want to look at it again.

Johnny ola
02-15-2021, 04:18 PM
What are those lineages, by the way? Which subclade?

Italo-Celtic branch.R1b>U152.Well such lineages arrived either with the Celtic migration to Anatolia(later Galatians).Or maybe with Romans-Byzantines.I am leaning more with the first option.

Greekscholar
02-15-2021, 06:25 PM
I don't know have much knowledge concerning the possible repopulation, but these results might indicate that not only Central Anatolians, but also Western Anatolians, many Aegean Islanders and Cypriots derive the majority of their ancestry from ancient Anatolians, which is kind of ironic in my opinion, seeing as all those regions either were at one point in time or still are completely culturally Greek, which kind of makes Anatolia DNA the thing that binds all Greeks together, lol.

There was a time in history when Mycenaean-like Greeks would have lived in Western Anatolia. That Empuries sample is from colonists from Phokia who then moved to Iberia. We need more samples to know how this migration affected the genetics of the region. Something Byzantine era would be great. I would guess by that point in time you would have Greeks with more BA Anatolian admixture, fewer or no Mycenean-like profiles remained, but who knows?

Depopulation and repopulation events are critical in understanding the genetics of Greeks who lived in areas close to Anatolia. Most NE_Aegean islands and Smyrna have histories of these events in the genealogical time frame. It is likely these events affected the genetics of those regions. I don't know who wide spread this was in Western Anatolia outside of the Smyrna G25 samples we have, or how much it affected the Turkish population of those regions.

bovefex
02-15-2021, 06:31 PM
There was a time in history when Mycenaean-like Greeks would have lived in Western Anatolia. That Empuries sample is from colonists from Phokia who then moved to Iberia. We need more samples to know how this migration affected the genetics of the region. Something Byzantine era would be great. I would guess by that point in time you would have Greeks with more BA Anatolian admixture, fewer or no Mycenean-like profiles remained, but who knows?

Depopulation and repopulation events are critical in understanding the genetics of Greeks who lived in areas close to Anatolia. Most NE_Aegean islands and Smyrna have histories of these events in the genealogical time frame. It is likely these events affected the genetics of those regions. I don't know who wide spread this was in Western Anatolia outside of the Smyrna G25 samples we have, or how much it affected the Turkish population of those regions.

Indeed, which is why I found the results ironic. I had expected people from those regions to score more Ancient Greek, but that might indeed be due to depopulation and repopulation.

As far as samples go, do we know how representative the Mycenean-era samples we have are? It is in my opinion possible that Greeks were already BA Anatolian-admixed by the end of the Hellenistic period.

Greekscholar
02-15-2021, 06:56 PM
Indeed, which is why I found the results ironic. I had expected people from those regions to score more Ancient Greek, but that might indeed be due to depopulation and repopulation.

As far as samples go, do we know how representative the Mycenean-era samples we have are? It is in my opinion possible that Greeks were already BA Anatolian-admixed by the end of the Hellenistic period.

Well, I can only give you hearsay, but others on AG say "not good enough" and that once more samples are realized we will see much greater genetic variation among that culture, more Steepe is what I have heard.

The timing of the genetic change isn't known, but the Roman samples show many individuals with genetic profiles very similar to today's Aegean Islanders. Sarno et al., speculated that Mainland Greece underwent a similar change but signficiant northern admixture from Slavs is why they are clinal with today's Island Greeks, whose closest genetic populations are Southern Italians/Sicilians/Western Jews.

Johnny ola
02-15-2021, 07:07 PM
Indeed, which is why I found the results ironic. I had expected people from those regions to score more Ancient Greek, but that might indeed be due to depopulation and repopulation.

As far as samples go, do we know how representative the Mycenean-era samples we have are? It is in my opinion possible that Greeks were already BA Anatolian-admixed by the end of the Hellenistic period.

Davidski has mention That Greeks From Hellenistic and Roman times have a more Anatolian direction.Some are Greek like while others Are clearly more Anatolian. There Are samples on the way probably. I hope This year We are going to see something either From Greece or Turkey.

Michalis Moriopoulos
02-15-2021, 07:53 PM
^ He also included Iron Age in that clause:


Heard some stuff...

- Mesolithic Greeks are like Barcin farmers (or wrongly dated)

- Bronze Age samples range from quite a bit of steppe (clearly more than the current Mycenaeans) to basically none

- Iron Age/Hellenistic/Roman samples are also very heterogeneous, some clearly Anatolian

We've seen the Cycladic sample with a lot of BA Anatolia-like admixture, confirming this ancestry was in the Aegean early on, but who knows its extent. The nature of absorption of Anatolian-heavy people into the Greek ethnos over time remains mysterious. I think we'll be seeing a lot of it post-BA in the islands, but perhaps not stabilized until the Hellenistic era (maybe paralleling Roman samples).

bovefex
02-15-2021, 07:57 PM
^ He also included Iron Age in that clause:



We've seen the Cycladic sample with a lot of BA Anatolia-like admixture, confirming this ancestry was in the Aegean early on, but who knows its extent. The nature of absorption of Anatolian-heavy people into the Greek ethnos over time remains mysterious. I think we'll be seeing a lot of it post-BA in the islands, but perhaps not stabilized until the Hellenistic era (maybe paralleling Roman samples).

Very interesting. Thanks for the info.

Johnny ola
02-15-2021, 08:02 PM
^ He also included Iron Age in that clause:



We've seen the Cycladic sample with a lot of BA Anatolia-like admixture, confirming this ancestry was in the Aegean early on, but who knows its extent. The nature of absorption of Anatolian-heavy people into the Greek ethnos over time remains mysterious. I think we'll be seeing a lot of it post-BA in the islands, but perhaps not stabilized until the Hellenistic era (maybe paralleling Roman samples).

Personally I care less about the Anatolian shift. What it makes me wonder is about the Levant DNA in the Greco-Roman world... :confused:

Alkaevli
02-15-2021, 08:40 PM
Aren't there like 2 million bosniaks living in western turkey? That might be the reason
The presence of Bosnians in western Turkey doesn't make an average Turk Bosnian-admixed. Bosnians are relatively recent migrants and anyone with Bosnian ancestry is aware of it. Their population is nowhere near 2 million by the way, that's clearly an overestimation.

Northwestern Turks require a population with relatively high level of steppe ancestry because pre-Turkic inhabitants of the region probably had higher levels of steppe ancestry than Greek_Central_Anatolia.


Scythian samples from ukraine are sampled as 50-60% northern european and the rest being west asian, most probably CHG. Slavs get quiet a lot of Scythian admixtures in calculators. On several GEDmatches, Scythian remains are sampled to be closest to modern north europeans, like swedes and norwiegen. Their ancestry went hand in hand with the north eastern european CW culture

Western scythians / sarmatians barely had any non western eurasian admixture, infact none.
That's not true. The Sarmatians are relatively homogeneous and harbor 10% East Eurasian ancestry on average, the Scythians on the other hand are quite heterogenous but the western ones have East Eurasian admixture as well, save for those from Hungary.

There is a classification of western Scythians on the linked thread below, quoted from a Russian blogger. Not sure how accurate this is, but many of the Scythian samples from Ukraine-Moldova are of Getae/Thracian stock according to this classification.
https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?15533-Ancient-genomes-of-Srubnaya-Cimmerians-Scythians-and-Sarmatians(Science-2018)&p=539749&viewfull=1#post539749

The western Scythian samples below have East Eurasian admixture.

Scythian_UKR:MJ15,0.10927,0.015233,0.041483,0.0681 53,-0.03139,0.019522,-0.003055,-0.010846,-0.029656,-0.031162,-0.006658,0.000599,-0.008771,-0.012937,0.014658,0.008486,0.000782,0.006968,-0.004399,0.000625,0.003619,0.001113,0.000739,-0.000602,-0.000599
Scythian_UKR:MJ46,0.10927,0.060932,0.027907,0.0355 3,-0.001539,0.01506,-0.000705,-0.011769,-0.006136,-0.011481,-0.010068,0.000749,-0.024083,-0.01445,0.01045,-0.018032,-0.004824,0.001267,-0.004902,0.000125,-0.007487,-0.00507,-0.000739,0.00012,-0.008502
Scythian_UKR:MJ16,0.106994,0.066009,0.032055,0.055 233,0.001846,0.015897,-0.000235,0.018922,-0.009817,-0.016037,0.003085,-0.002098,-0.007136,-0.003165,0.008143,0.014717,0.010431,0.011149,-0.010684,0.002376,0.000374,-0.009892,0.003328,0.004458,-0.005029
Scythian_UKR:scy011,0.104717,0.076165,0.030924,0.0 28747,-0.011387,0.008088,0.008225,-0.003692,-0.01943,-0.02934,-0.002923,0.005845,-0.010704,0.005643,0.000679,0.008884,-0.011604,0.007348,0.006159,0.007379,-0.012728,-0.013107,0.011092,0.001928,-0.001437
Scythian_MDA:scy301,0.112685,0.087336,0.030547,0.0 1615,0.002154,0.004741,-0.001645,-0.002769,-0.017589,0.002187,-0.00682,-0.001948,-0.00773,-0.005918,0.003122,0.009281,0.008214,0.004181,0.008 799,0.009129,-0.010107,0.010758,0.006902,0.001446,0.001197
Scythian_UKR:MJ35,0.10927,0.081242,0.028661,0.0500 65,-0.00677,0.014781,0.013631,0.011769,-0.011658,-0.008018,-0.021598,-0.01109,0.015907,-0.009771,0.003664,0.004773,-0.005476,0.002534,-0.006913,0.007754,-0.018717,-0.009892,-0.008997,-0.004217,0.007784
Scythian_MDA:scy311,0.119514,0.094444,0.017348,0.0 04522,0.009232,0.009203,-0.00141,-0.008769,-0.006545,0.006925,0.005034,0.006894,-0.013825,-0.006331,0.002579,0.02254,0.010822,0.004181,0.0060 34,-0.003377,-0.009858,-0.000124,-0.005053,0.011809,-0.003473
Scythian_UKR:MJ34,0.114961,0.093429,0.036581,0.038 76,0.000615,0.005299,0.001645,0.006,-0.006954,-0.015855,0.001299,-3e-04,-0.004906,-0.004679,0.009229,0.007558,-0.00013,-0.00114,0.001131,0.001626,-0.002246,0.001607,-0.004683,-0.011206,0.00455
Scythian_UKR:MJ16,0.106994,0.066009,0.032055,0.055 233,0.001846,0.015897,-0.000235,0.018922,-0.009817,-0.016037,0.003085,-0.002098,-0.007136,-0.003165,0.008143,0.014717,0.010431,0.011149,-0.010684,0.002376,0.000374,-0.009892,0.003328,0.004458,-0.005029



while the eastern ones from around central and eastern kazakhstan had some east asian.
The Tasmola culture samples (labelled as Saka_Kazakh_steppe) have 40% East Eurasian admixture, I wouldn't call it "some."

dosas
02-15-2021, 09:15 PM
The nature of absorption of Anatolian-heavy people into the Greek ethnos over time remains mysterious.


It's not mysterious at all, it's very well documented.

Byzantine Emperors used to relocate Armenian and Syrian settlers to all parts of the Empire, in Eastern Thrace, for example, and parts of what is now South Bulgaria, Emperor Maurice (602 A.D.) relocated 30.000 Armenian horsemen cavalry and another 120.000 of what is referred to in the records as settlers of "Armenio-Syrian descend", that were loyal to the throne. In 775, Emperor Leo IV, relocated another 200.000-280.000 of those "Armeno-Syrian" settlers into the same area (source: Ιστορία του Ελληνικού Έθνους (1981), Εκδοτική Αθηνών, Τόμος Η', pp. 183).

In Asia Minor, more so, these types of relocations were a commonplace event.

If you read the stuff the chroniclers of the Imperium Graecorum left behind, these events are properly documented.

bovefex
02-15-2021, 09:18 PM
It's not mysterious at all, it's very well documented.

Byzantine Emperors used to relocate Armenian and Syrian settlers to all parts of the Empire, in Eastern Thrace, for example, and parts of what is now South Bulgaria, Emperor Maurice (602 A.D.) relocated 30.000 Armenian horsemen cavalry and another 120.000 of what is referred to in the records as settlers of "Armenio-Syrian descend", that were loyal to the throne. In 775, Emperor Leo IV, relocated another 200.000-280.000 of those "Armeno-Syrian" settlers into the same area (source: Ιστορία του Ελληνικού Έθνους (1981), Εκδοτική Αθηνών, Τόμος Η', pp. 183).

In Asia Minor, more so, these types of relocations were a commonplace event.

If you read the stuff the chroniclers of the Imperium Graecorum left behind, these events are properly documented.

Is there any documentation of resettlement from Greece, too?

dosas
02-15-2021, 09:30 PM
Is there any documentation of resettlement from Greece, too?


Around the same time, the Emperors are forcefully relocating defeated invading Slavs to Asia Minor and replacing them with the aforementioned "Armeno-Syrians", in order to secure the reconquista with loyal communities.

The Byzantine "Macedonian" dynasty that'd later produce Basil II the Bulgar Slayer, was apparently of entirely Armenian origin and focused heavily on such expulsions, but this is a recurring theme, expelling invading Slavs from mainland Greece to Asia minor, that was performed by many other Emperors. In 762, it's recorded that more than 200,000 of these Slavic expatriates were relocated to Asia Minor, for example.

bovefex
02-15-2021, 11:17 PM
Around the same time, the Emperors are forcefully relocating defeated invading Slavs to Asia Minor and replacing them with the aforementioned "Armeno-Syrians", in order to secure the reconquista with loyal communities.

The Byzantine "Macedonian" dynasty that'd later produce Basil II the Bulgar Slayer, was apparently of entirely Armenian origin and focused heavily on such expulsions, but this is a recurring theme, expelling invading Slavs from mainland Greece to Asia minor, that was performed by many other Emperors. In 762, it's recorded that more than 200,000 of these Slavic expatriates were relocated to Asia Minor, for example.

Interesting. Do we know which part(s) of Asia Minor these Slavs were relocated to and what the pre-resettlement population of those regions were?

EDIT: Wait did you just say that not only Basil, but the entire Macedonian dynasty was of Armenian origin?

EDIT 2: Apparently, the founder of the dynasty might have been Armenian, Slavic or both according to some scholars (got the information from Wikipedia).

dosas
02-16-2021, 07:02 AM
EDIT 2: Apparently, the founder of the dynasty might have been Armenian, Slavic or both according to some scholars (got the information from Wikipedia).


One common misconception about him is due to his nickname "Macedonian", as back then, during that specific period, the theme of Thrace, centered around Adrianopolis, was actually called Macedonia, rather than Thrace. He himself claimed ancestry from Armenian royal lines, but the bottom line is, that the Greco-Romans of Adrianopolis were the bastion of the Byzantines against the Bulgarian Empire and the rest of the raiding Slavs. His dynasty was the one responsible for the Greco-Roman reconquista of mainland Greece and the final defeat of the Bulgarians/South Slavs (up until the Latin Crusade, anyways).

Turning Basil I into a Slav, of all things, sounds a bit like farcical historical revisionism, no offense, friend.

bovefex
02-16-2021, 07:22 AM
Turning Basil I into a Slav, of all things, sounds a bit like farcical historical revisionism, no offense, friend.

Oh I just wrote what I saw on Wikipedia, I don’t personally think he was Slavic or something.

Anyway, thanks for the info. Never would have guessed that the Macedonian dynasty’s founder was (most likely) of Armenian origin.

Aspar
02-16-2021, 09:22 AM
One common misconception about him is due to his nickname "Macedonian", as back then, during that specific period, the theme of Thrace, centered around Adrianopolis, was actually called Macedonia, rather than Thrace. He himself claimed ancestry from Armenian royal lines, but the bottom line is, that the Greco-Romans of Adrianopolis were the bastion of the Byzantines against the Bulgarian Empire and the rest of the raiding Slavs. His dynasty was the one responsible for the Greco-Roman reconquista of mainland Greece and the final defeat of the Bulgarians/South Slavs (up until the Latin Crusade, anyways).

Turning Basil I into a Slav, of all things, sounds a bit like farcical historical revisionism, no offense, friend.

Why is it such a grave thing if he indeed had some Slavic ancestry?
Furthermore, if Wikipedia is wrong then someone should try edited it but as I can see there are some reliable academic and historical sources that speak of at least partially Slavic derived ancestry of Basil I through his mother side. As for the Eastern Roman Empire, it wasn't a monoethnic Empire but multiethnic and on top of that the ethnic origins didn't really matter to them that much but the Christian religion and the loyalty to the Roman Emperor or Byzantine(wrongly and probably intentionally forcing this name by western scholars) as it's known wrongly nowadays. And in Thrace there were for sure many Slavic people. Furthermore, the Bulgarian Empire wasn't the only Empire the Slavs were loyal to. Many more were loyal to the Roman Empire and hostile to the Bulgarian Empire especially in Macedonia. During the feudal era, many local Slavic warlords were actually flirting with both the Roman and the Bulgarian Empire. Those that remained in the borders of the Roman Empire ultimately entered in the genepool of the modern Greeks. Yes, the modern Greeks are descendants of all those people that lived in the Roman borders, ancient Greeks, Thracians, Illyrians, Slavs, Albanians, Vlachs, Pontians, Armenians, Levantines, Cumans, Pechenegs etc. Except if you think that the Slavs didn't contribute in the Roman and then the modern Greeks ethnogenesis which is beyond the reasonable thinking. By the way, traces of Slavic yDna can be found not only in the mainland but throughout the Greek speaking world and even in Cyprus.

dosas
02-16-2021, 12:05 PM
Why is it such a grave thing if he indeed had some Slavic ancestry?



Maybe he did, maybe he didn't. By his own decree, he was Armenian and Roman, I don't care enough to argue about the rest of your points, I don't disagree with most of them anyways.

I am just allergic to historical revisionism to feed petty nationalistic squabbles (not saying that you are doing that), I didn't mean my post to come across as offensive to Slavs, I am partially Bulgarian as well.

Johnny ola
02-16-2021, 01:00 PM
Why is it such a grave thing if he indeed had some Slavic ancestry?
Furthermore, if Wikipedia is wrong then someone should try edited it but as I can see there are some reliable academic and historical sources that speak of at least partially Slavic derived ancestry of Basil I through his mother side. As for the Eastern Roman Empire, it wasn't a monoethnic Empire but multiethnic and on top of that the ethnic origins didn't really matter to them that much but the Christian religion and the loyalty to the Roman Emperor or Byzantine(wrongly and probably intentionally forcing this name by western scholars) as it's known wrongly nowadays. And in Thrace there were for sure many Slavic people. Furthermore, the Bulgarian Empire wasn't the only Empire the Slavs were loyal to. Many more were loyal to the Roman Empire and hostile to the Bulgarian Empire especially in Macedonia. During the feudal era, many local Slavic warlords were actually flirting with both the Roman and the Bulgarian Empire. Those that remained in the borders of the Roman Empire ultimately entered in the genepool of the modern Greeks. Yes, the modern Greeks are descendants of all those people that lived in the Roman borders, ancient Greeks, Thracians, Illyrians, Slavs, Albanians, Vlachs, Pontians, Armenians, Levantines, Cumans, Pechenegs etc. Except if you think that the Slavs didn't contribute in the Roman and then the modern Greeks ethnogenesis which is beyond the reasonable thinking. By the way, traces of Slavic yDna can be found not only in the mainland but throughout the Greek speaking world and even in Cyprus.

The Cypriot lineages you mean the R1a There?

Aspar
02-16-2021, 01:53 PM
The Cypriot lineages you mean the R1a There?

Not all R1a lineages are of Slavic origin! R1a itself is a SNP old 23000 ybp while TMRCA is around 18000 ybp. No modern living man is of a sole R1a haplogroup. Everyone positive for R1a has a set of mutations that represent the time from TMRCA of all R1a and up to date! Most of these mutations are shared with most of the R1a people today however small number are shared mostly with people that have common ancestor let's say in the last 2100 ybp. Because of these mutations that occurred in the last 2100 ybp we can observe that they are dominant mostly in specific populations and not in all of the R1a positive people today and because of that we can identify SNPs which are of Slavic or other origin!

Such SNPs that are predominantly found in the Slavs are I-Y3120 or R-L1029, both of which can be found in Cyprus according to some FTDNA results I've seen: https://www.familytreedna.com/public/Cypriot_DNA?iframe=yresults

Johnny ola
02-16-2021, 02:07 PM
Not all R1a lineages are of Slavic origin! R1a itself is a SNP old 23000 ybp while TMRCA is around 18000 ybp. No modern living man is of a sole R1a haplogroup. Everyone positive for R1a has a set of mutations that represent the time from TMRCA of all R1a and up to date! Most of these mutations are shared with most of the R1a people today however small number are shared mostly with people that have common ancestor let's say in the last 2100 ybp. Because of these mutations that occurred in the last 2100 ybp we can observe that they are dominant mostly in specific populations and not in all of the R1a positive people today and because of that we can identify SNPs which are of Slavic or other origin!

Such SNPs that are predominantly found in the Slavs are I-Y3120 or R-L1029, both of which can be found in Cyprus according to some FTDNA results I've seen: https://www.familytreedna.com/public/Cypriot_DNA?iframe=yresults

I know.. thats why i am asking.I think these lineages in Cyprus arrived with mainland Greek migrations,because i can't remember Slavic migrations(during middle ages) towards the East Med especially at Cyprus.These people are probably of Greek mainlander roots that immigrated there after the collapse of the Byzantium Empire and later with the Ottoman times.

Aspar
02-16-2021, 02:27 PM
I know.. thats why i am asking.I think these lineages in Cyprus arrived with mainland Greek migrations,because i can't remember Slavic migrations(during middle ages) towards the East Med especially at Cyprus.These people are probably of Greek mainlander roots that immigrated there after the collapse of the Byzantium Empire and later with the Ottoman times.

Well yeah, that's the most likely explanation. My point was that in the ethnogenesis of the modern Greek nation the Slavs played part and that's undeniable. Therefore it's not something out of ordinary if Basil I had at least partially Slavic ancestry.

Johnny ola
02-16-2021, 02:49 PM
Well yeah, that's the most likely explanation. My point was that in the ethnogenesis of the modern Greek nation the Slavs played part and that's undeniable. Therefore it's not something out of ordinary if Basil I had at least partially Slavic ancestry.

I am not sure about Basil I and i don't really care tbh.But i think cyril and methodius were Slavs or some type of Greco(hellenized) Slavs that converted to christianity and later spread it to the other Slavic populations of Europe.

XXD
02-16-2021, 06:56 PM
I should also point out that at least in Dodecanesians and other islanders, a large proportion of the R1a is R1aZ93 (based on 23andme matches), which might have come with protoGreeks, and not with the Slavs. This contrasts with the mainland, where the overwhelming majority of R1a came with the Slavs. Do we have any indication of the R1a subclades in Cyprus?

Also, regarding the ethnogenesis of modern Greeks, the single most important event is the nationalist propaganda imposed by Greek elites and Western Europeans in the 19th century. Until that time, the vast majority of the Greek population considered themselves Romans (which they were).

Genes don't make an ethnos, culture does.

The Greeks absorbed Levantine, Slavic, Arvanite and Vlach populations; this did not affect their self perception in any way.

Johnny ola
02-16-2021, 07:03 PM
I should also point out that at least in Dodecanesians and other islanders, a large proportion of the R1a is R1aZ93 (based on 23andme matches), which might have come with protoGreeks, and not with the Slavs. This contrasts with the mainland, where the overwhelming majority of R1a came with the Slavs. Do we have any indication of the R1a subclades in Cyprus?

Also, regarding the ethnogenesis of modern Greeks, the single most important event is the nationalist propaganda imposed by Greek elites and Western Europeans in the 19th century. Until that time, the vast majority of the Greek population considered themselves Romans (which they were).

Genes don't make an ethnos, culture does.

The Greeks absorbed Levantine, Slavic, Arvanite and Vlach populations; this did not affect their self perception in any way.

Great comment.This is pretty much for the vast majority of the modern Balkan states and Turkey as well!!!!

eolien
02-17-2021, 10:58 AM
Genes don't make an ethnos, culture does.


sorry but i couldn't prevent myself of commenting: I fully support the view that culture does not create or maintain ethnos , political power does.

Also because when you look to the xyz ethnos as an outsider observer you create that category that maybe did not exist before and you (the observer) give support or justification to it in 'objective terms' by picking up

certain cultural characteristics that the supposed members of that ethnos share. So a local group identity does not translate into an ethnos, ethnic group, nations, race automatically, it has to be defined and propagated by a

political authority. In my opinion at least I can observe this transition phase still in parts of Africa and middle east but in Europe we have no information aout pre-nation ethnos except in the texts of ancient Greek and Roman writers and the rest is just a bit of

speculation and intellectual exercise.

eolien
02-17-2021, 11:16 AM
Also, regarding the ethnogenesis of modern Greeks, the single most important event is the nationalist propaganda imposed by Greek elites and Western Europeans in the 19th century. Until that time, the vast majority of the Greek population considered themselves Romans (which they were).



I have a question, the word Hellenic for the language and culture in Greek language did not exist before the 19th century? Was it a neologism or re-use of the archaic term?

How the Greeks of mainland called the Greece of today (only as regions?)

bovefex
02-17-2021, 11:18 AM
I have a question, the word Hellenic for the language and culture in Greek language did not exist before the 19th century? Was it a neologism or re-use of the archaic term?

How the Greeks of mainland called the Greece of today (only as regions?)

I don't know much about the rest of your question, but the word "Hellas" definitely existed in the Antiquity, and if I remember correctly it meant "Greece", though I don't know if that corresponds to what we would think about if we were to hear the word "Greece".

Johnny ola
02-17-2021, 12:47 PM
I don't know much about the rest of your question, but the word "Hellas" definitely existed in the Antiquity, and if I remember correctly it meant "Greece", though I don't know if that corresponds to what we would think about if we were to hear the word "Greece".

They called themselves Romans... and with the arrival of Christianity the term Greek-Hellenas used to mean the pagans. It wasnt a suitable term those times. If you ask me the Greek ethnos created and happened because of the Orthodox Christianity.

eolien
02-17-2021, 01:06 PM
They called themselves Romans... and with the arrival of Christianity the term Greek-Hellenas used to mean the pagans. It wasnt a suitable term those times. If you ask me the Greek ethnos created and happened because of the Orthodox Christianity.


Without intending to deviate from the thread focus,

My question was rather simple. If in the 17.-18. CE you met a common greek speaking guy from the islands, mainland and i don't know where, and asked them which language they spoke, or which language the books are written such as the bible , what would be their answer?

Second question is what would be their affiliation be? Christian, local, regional, Roman, Greek etc?

thanks

dosas
02-17-2021, 01:13 PM
I have a question, the word Hellenic for the language and culture in Greek language did not exist before the 19th century? Was it a neologism or re-use of the archaic term?

How the Greeks of mainland called the Greece of today (only as regions?)

Post Schism, it's "Βασιλεία τῶν Ῥωμαίων, Ἀρχὴ τῶν Ῥωμαίων", in Latin letters, "Basileia tōn Rhōmaiōn, Archē tōn Rhōmaiōn" ie "Kingdom of the Romans, Principality of the Romans". For the West, it was mostly referred to as "Imperium Graecorum" ie "Empire of the Greco-Romans". So the modern name of Greece really is a derivation of that, whereas the Greeks, in modern times (post 19th century), refer to themselves as Hellenes and their country as Hellas, preferring that terminology to their medieval one (it's a sublime conflict of scholarly, linguistic and cultural division in our country, without getting too much into it).

Linguistically, during the times of the "Kingdom of the Romans", the Hellenic dialect spoken was referred to as "Romeyka" ie "Roman", and it was written in both Hellenistic and Latin script.


This is one of the first printed lexicons for providing translation between Vulgar Latin, Vulgar Greek, Latin proper, and Greek proper, Corona Preciosa (1527) Venice:


https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-cY2E_sjeCS8/X7zofV8OfjI/AAAAAAAAEHA/pZ9uHfFz0dwDaS_lqUyizHuqqrHltsEEQCLcBGAsYHQ/w408-h640/corona_preciosa.jpg


This is a text in Romeyka, written in Latin letters, pronounciation is assisted with the use of a variety of added accents. Any modern Greek speaker can read and understand it perfectly:

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-VO1-QD3x2Co/X6zwX-PTHZI/AAAAAAAADJc/P8ZMU3VEOkcO1L5t0eb1aqcGUuZzOEQ5QCLcBGAsYHQ/w640-h594/paramythi.jpg


The modern Greek language commonly spoken today is an evolution of Medieval Vulgar Romeyka ("Demotic") rather than archaic Hellenic proper, which was revived in a formulary form ("Katharevousa"). There was a big division, throughout the 20th century, as to which of the two would persevere, in the end it was victory for the Romeyka ("Demotic") speakers.

bovefex
02-17-2021, 01:26 PM
They called themselves Romans... and with the arrival of Christianity the term Greek-Hellenas used to mean the pagans. It wasnt a suitable term those times. If you ask me the Greek ethnos created and happened because of the Orthodox Christianity.

I was talking about a few centuries B.C. I'm pretty sure the word "Hellas" has existed for a long, long time, but I admit that I very well might be misremembering.

On an unrelated note, the administrators really should give us a Roman subforum.

Johnny ola
02-17-2021, 01:54 PM
Without intending to deviate from the thread focus,

My question was rather simple. If in the 17.-18. CE you met a common greek speaking guy from the islands, mainland and i don't know where, and asked them which language they spoke, or which language the books are written such as the bible , what would be their answer?

Second question is what would be their affiliation be? Christian, local, regional, Roman, Greek etc?

thanks

Christian-Roman more than anything. Language was the lingua franca.The term 'Grecos' actually is a western term.Τhe Greek independence was first and for all a religious revolution and second that these people under the Ottoman occupation had nothing to do with Ottomans/Turks.Many educated Greeks that used to live outside from the Greek mainland especially those who study in the EU unis,started boosting the Greek nationalism.With a few words the Greek independence contains both the religious nationalism and it started to developed Greek nationalism.Many of those who fight against the Ottomans had used the term 'Ελληνες'.

Johnny ola
02-17-2021, 02:00 PM
I was talking about a few centuries B.C. I'm pretty sure the word "Hellas" has existed for a long, long time, but I admit that I very well might be misremembering.

On an unrelated note, the administrators really should give us a Roman subforum.


Αs i said,many people used to seeing it as something pagan and anti-christian.Many emperors used to hunted those who seek the ancient Greek legacy.

td120
02-17-2021, 10:39 PM
The Bulgarians (and later the Russians) generally used the term "the Greeks" (грькъ) for the populace (in the European part at least) of the East Roman Empire (although Романя/Romanya as a name for the political entity and the territory was used too).

Similar was the situation with the Westerners since roughly the beginning of the second millennium (mainly for political reasons)-"the Greeks", "The Emperor of the Greeks" etc.

As for the Greek speaking population of the Ottoman Empire I would not be very surprised if they called themselves Рωμαίοι well into the XIXc. (some folks in what is now Greek Macedonia used it up to the beginning of XXc.,though rare) .

"Елини" (Hellenoi) in the Bulgarian/Slavic tradition is used exclusively for the pre-Christian period .In biblical terms -to describe non-Jewish people.

eolien
02-18-2021, 09:43 AM
Post Schism, it's "Βασιλεία τῶν Ῥωμαίων, Ἀρχὴ τῶν Ῥωμαίων", in Latin letters, "Basileia tōn Rhōmaiōn, Archē tōn Rhōmaiōn" ie "Kingdom of the Romans, Principality of the Romans". For the West, it was mostly referred to as "Imperium Graecorum" ie "Empire of the Greco-Romans". So the modern name of Greece really is a derivation of that, whereas the Greeks, in modern times (post 19th century), refer to themselves as Hellenes and their country as Hellas, preferring that terminology to their medieval one (it's a sublime conflict of scholarly, linguistic and cultural division in our country, without getting too much into it).

Linguistically, during the times of the "Kingdom of the Romans", the Hellenic dialect spoken was referred to as "Romeyka" ie "Roman", and it was written in both Hellenistic and Latin script.


This is one of the first printed lexicons for providing translation between Vulgar Latin, Vulgar Greek, Latin proper, and Greek proper, Corona Preciosa (1527) Venice:


https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-cY2E_sjeCS8/X7zofV8OfjI/AAAAAAAAEHA/pZ9uHfFz0dwDaS_lqUyizHuqqrHltsEEQCLcBGAsYHQ/w408-h640/corona_preciosa.jpg


This is a text in Romeyka, written in Latin letters, pronounciation is assisted with the use of a variety of added accents. Any modern Greek speaker can read and understand it perfectly:

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-VO1-QD3x2Co/X6zwX-PTHZI/AAAAAAAADJc/P8ZMU3VEOkcO1L5t0eb1aqcGUuZzOEQ5QCLcBGAsYHQ/w640-h594/paramythi.jpg


The modern Greek language commonly spoken today is an evolution of Medieval Vulgar Romeyka ("Demotic") rather than archaic Hellenic proper, which was revived in a formulary form ("Katharevousa"). There was a big division, throughout the 20th century, as to which of the two would persevere, in the end it was victory for the Romeyka ("Demotic") speakers.

I wanted to give you feedback since you clearly invested in your reply. I am more interested how the common folk would call the land and themselves and not the foreigners or the elites connected to the the state apparatus. This is similar to how Hebrew was called, afaik until the zionism, the language was not called Ivrit (i.e. Hebrew) at all.

eolien
02-18-2021, 09:45 AM
The Bulgarians (and later the Russians) generally used the term "the Greeks" (грькъ) for the populace (in the European part at least) of the East Roman Empire (although Романя/Romanya as a name for the political entity and the territory was used too).

Similar was the situation with the Westerners since roughly the beginning of the second millennium (mainly for political reasons)-"the Greeks", "The Emperor of the Greeks" etc.

As for the Greek speaking population of the Ottoman Empire I would not be very surprised if they called themselves Рωμαίοι well into the XIXc. (some folks in what is now Greek Macedonia used it up to the beginning of XXc.,though rare) .

"Елини" (Hellenoi) in the Bulgarian/Slavic tradition is used exclusively for the pre-Christian period .In biblical terms -to describe non-Jewish people.

Can you give some input if Bulgarians were called Bulgarians before the 19th century by themselves or other neighbour Slaves?

td120
02-18-2021, 12:00 PM
There are numerous records about how the populace of the ethnic Bulgarian territory were called (by themselves, by foreigners or by the administration of whatever political entity they happened to be under).
-pre-Christian inscriptions (in Greek, commissioned by Bulgarian rulers)
-Roman (Byzantine) chronicles (random page , http://macedonia.kroraina.com/gibi/5/gal/5_014.html )
-Western chronicles (for ex. http://macedonia.kroraina.com/libi/3/gal/3_009.html -these are Western European documents mentioning Bulgaria and the Bulgarians)
-Arab, Armenian, Russian chronicles etc.
-Notary documents from Western(Italian, Catalan) slave traders in the Mediterranean and the Black Sea etc. (grim reads... in Manoli Breschiano's notary papers the Cretan slaves self-declare their ethnicity)
-travelers and diplomats; clergy (Ottoman; Western ;Armenian; Catholic clergymen)

Of course many of the Bulgarians in the interior of the country (when asked "Who are you?") would have simply answered : "Well...hm...we're Christians"(and I'd guess such might have been the answer in the Western Balkans too) as the ethnic self-awareness might have faded after several centuries of both political and Phanar confessional oppression (the latter being just as despicable). The local Qadi or Kaymakam too would be very well aware who they'd been sent to administer...well,the Fisc on the other hand (righfully) would not give a darn about the ethnic background of the rayah... but their neighbors (the Turks and the Greeks specifically) were very well aware who them Slav speakers actually were (although they'd lump them together under "Rum Milliyet" along with the other Orthodox Christians). Just as the Bulgarians were very well aware that the local bey's guards were actually "Arnauts" or Tatars and the local bishop was -of course- Greek).

dosas
02-18-2021, 12:11 PM
I wanted to give you feedback since you clearly invested in your reply. I am more interested how the common folk would call the land and themselves and not the foreigners or the elites connected to the the state apparatus. This is similar to how Hebrew was called, afaik until the zionism, the language was not called Ivrit (i.e. Hebrew) at all.


Afaik, they would mostly call themselves Romans and their language Romeyka, their land Romanya (Ottoman: Rumelia) but there were pockets of communities throughout the Ottoman Empire using the term Hellene/Hellas, whether as a result of the spread of Western Enlightenment or as a consequence of historical continuity, that I cannot safely answer (not sure if anyone can).

It's interesting that a revival of the term Hellene also made a brief appearance with the Laskarides dynasty in the throne of Nicaea (post 1204) and also used by Constantine Palaiologos XI, after the reclamation of the throne and before the fall of Constantinopolis. This is part of his final speech before the final battle (translation mine):

"Present your shield, swords, arrows, and spears to them, imagining that you are a hunting party after wild boars, so that the impious may learn that they are dealing not with dumb animals but with their lords and masters, the descendants of the Greeks and the Romans ..... "

In current times, in Greece, the safekeeper of this 1000 year-old Greco-Roman tradition is undoubtedly the Greek Orthodox Church with a selection of (diminishing in numbers) scholars. The dominant cultural space is almost monopolized by the advocates of 19th century Romanticism and the revival of the Classical era, which, in my opinion, is responsible for an multi-faceted identity crisis of sorts for modern Greeks (big convo for another time).

Helene Glykatzi-Ahrweiler (ex-Dean of Paris-Sorbonne Uni. and one of the most prominent "Byzantine"-ologists in the world) rejects the term "Hellene" and argues that the new Greek state had to invent a new ethnic identity that would jump over 1000 years of Roman tradition, one of the reasons being is that Greece was the only former-Ottoman nation that failed in recapturing the capital of the "Genos", namely Constantinople, and had to settle with Athens, an almost forgotten peripheral village of Romanya/Rumelia (translation mine).


https://youtu.be/RVIqgs_VtRU

XXD
02-18-2021, 01:12 PM
Afaik, they would mostly call themselves Romans and their language Romeyka, their land Romanya (Ottoman: Rumelia) but there were pockets of communities throughout the Ottoman Empire using the term Hellene/Hellas, whether as a result of the spread of Western Enlightenment or as a consequence of historical continuity, that I cannot safely answer (not sure if anyone can).

It's interesting that a revival of the term Hellene also made a brief appearance with the Laskarides dynasty in the throne of Nicaea (post 1204) and also used by Constantine Palaiologos XI, after the reclamation of the throne and before the fall of Constantinopolis. This is part of his final speech before the final battle (translation mine):

"Present your shield, swords, arrows, and spears to them, imagining that you are a hunting party after wild boars, so that the impious may learn that they are dealing not with dumb animals but with their lords and masters, the descendants of the Greeks and the Romans ..... "

In current times, in Greece, the safekeeper of this 1000 year-old Greco-Roman tradition is undoubtedly the Greek Orthodox Church with a selection of (diminishing in numbers) scholars. The dominant cultural space is almost monopolized by the advocates of 19th century Romanticism and the revival of the Classical era, which, in my opinion, is responsible for an multi-faceted identity crisis of sorts for modern Greeks (big convo for another time).

Helene Glykatzi-Ahrweiler (ex-Dean of Paris-Sorbonne Uni. and one of the most prominent "Byzantine"-ologists in the world) rejects the term "Hellene" and argues that the new Greek state had to invent a new ethnic identity that would jump over 1000 years of Roman tradition, one of the reasons being is that Greece was the only former-Ottoman nation that failed in recapturing the capital of the "Genos", namely Constantinople, and had to settle with Athens, an almost forgotten peripheral village of Romanya/Rumelia (translation mine).


https://youtu.be/RVIqgs_VtRU

I completely agree with everything you say. I also stated that until recently, the vast majority of Greeks would have referred to themselves as Romans. I also agree that the nationalist movements of the 19th century have led modern Greeks to have a very confused/distorted view of their identity or history.

But I disagree with Ahrweiler on this. Indeed, a Roman identity was imposed on the Greek populace (think of how Pausanias tells Greeks not to forget their origins; although 2 centuries later they did...) and by the 4th century AD it had become their "natural" ethnicity. In the same way, a Greek identity was imposed on the Greeks starting from the 19th century, and this is how they identify themselves now. I would say the vast majority of Greeks (especially the youth) have no connection with a Roman identity, and may in fact not even know about the concept!

So it would be anachronistic for modern Greeks to revert once more to a Roman identity, which in a way, is as "unnatural" as the Greek one they currently espouse.

What we should do is to reform our educational system so that young people can know about these changes of identity throughout our country's history. We primarily teach about ancient Greece, and the last 2000 years are very poorly taught. Plus, the Slavic occupation of Greece for 250 years is mentioned in a single page, when it is one of the most demographically significant events of our history.

Due to these factors, it seems that Greeks have a very monolithic view of their history, coinciding with their political affinities i.e. the right says we are "pure" ancient Greeks, whereas the left says that not a fragment of ancient Greek DNA has survived in the modern population. We know that both of these views are wrong.

Chatzianastasoglou
02-18-2021, 01:33 PM
I completely agree with everything you say. I also stated that until recently, the vast majority of Greeks would have referred to themselves as Romans. I also agree that the nationalist movements of the 19th century have led modern Greeks to have a very confused/distorted view of their identity or history.

But I disagree with Ahrweiler on this. Indeed, a Roman identity was imposed on the Greek populace (think of how Pausanias tells Greeks not to forget their origins; although 2 centuries later they did...) and by the 4th century AD it had become their "natural" ethnicity. In the same way, a Greek identity was imposed on the Greeks starting from the 19th century, and this is how they identify themselves now. I would say the vast majority of Greeks (especially the youth) have no connection with a Roman identity, and may in fact not even know about the concept!

So it would be anachronistic for modern Greeks to revert once more to a Roman identity, which in a way, is as "unnatural" as the Greek one they currently espouse.

What we should do is to reform our educational system so that young people can know about these changes of identity throughout our country's history. We primarily teach about ancient Greece, and the last 2000 years are very poorly taught. Plus, the Slavic occupation of Greece for 250 years is mentioned in a single page, when it is one of the most demographically significant events of our history.

Due to these factors, it seems that Greeks have a very monolithic view of their history, coinciding with their political affinities i.e. the right says we are "pure" ancient Greeks, whereas the left says that not a fragment of ancient Greek DNA has survived in the modern population. We know that both of these views are wrong.
"Roman" identity didn't mean Roman ethnicity of course. It was an Empire including various ethnicities and languages with Greek being the predominant and official language. What kept this all together was the belonging of all of these humans to a particular "ordo rerum" τάξη πραγμάτων. The aspect which ensured the Empire's cohesion was (Greek) Orthodoxy, Leo VI wrote about the έθνος Χριστιανών. This also explains why so many mixtures took place during this period, society didn't think in categories of a national state, your ethnic background didn't play any important role. I don't think that Glykatzi is wrong with her thesis, the modern Greek state was founded on an ancient Greek heritage basis, romantically and a bit arbitrarily. The failure of liberating Constantinople (the capital of the Greeks and their language for the last 17 centuries) put the final nail in that.

Johnny ola
02-18-2021, 02:18 PM
I completely agree with everything you say. I also stated that until recently, the vast majority of Greeks would have referred to themselves as Romans. I also agree that the nationalist movements of the 19th century have led modern Greeks to have a very confused/distorted view of their identity or history.

But I disagree with Ahrweiler on this. Indeed, a Roman identity was imposed on the Greek populace (think of how Pausanias tells Greeks not to forget their origins; although 2 centuries later they did...) and by the 4th century AD it had become their "natural" ethnicity. In the same way, a Greek identity was imposed on the Greeks starting from the 19th century, and this is how they identify themselves now. I would say the vast majority of Greeks (especially the youth) have no connection with a Roman identity, and may in fact not even know about the concept!

So it would be anachronistic for modern Greeks to revert once more to a Roman identity, which in a way, is as "unnatural" as the Greek one they currently espouse.

What we should do is to reform our educational system so that young people can know about these changes of identity throughout our country's history. We primarily teach about ancient Greece, and the last 2000 years are very poorly taught. Plus, the Slavic occupation of Greece for 250 years is mentioned in a single page, when it is one of the most demographically significant events of our history.

Due to these factors, it seems that Greeks have a very monolithic view of their history, coinciding with their political affinities i.e. the right says we are "pure" ancient Greeks, whereas the left says that not a fragment of ancient Greek DNA has survived in the modern population. We know that both of these views are wrong.

The 'Roman' identity pretty much killed the Greeks and with the arrival of Christianity the hellenic spirit completely died.That is not something bad.Only some low IQ natioanalists do not accept it.The modern Neo-Greek state is based with religious affairs first and for all.What in common an arvanite,vlach,sarakatsani,mainland Greek used to had those times with a Christian Greek speaking from Asia Minor or even from the islands(like Crete,Cyprus and Dodecannese) i would say?Pretty much nothing...with exception their Christian faith and the fact that they used to speak the same dialect(and ofc not all of them).The 'Greeks' died with the arrival of the Roman/Byzantine Empire...both their genetics and their ethnics have come to an end.And as i mention above, orthodox christianity was the final end for them.All the rest we discuss here are fantasies for some nationalists.The funny thing is that even some Pontic Greeks with far-right views believe that they have a connection to ancient Greeks when their autosomal DNA is pretty much native to Northeast Anatolia.Genetics are here to prove wrong all these people and not only Greeks but even balkaners,Turks,Italians and so on.There are not 'pure' ethnic groups and the vast majority of the modern nations are builded upon different stuff/issues and definitely not on sharing the same blood...

XXD
02-18-2021, 03:52 PM
The 'Roman' identity pretty much killed the Greeks and with the arrival of Christianity the hellenic spirit completely died.That is not something bad.Only some low IQ natioanalists do not accept it.The modern Neo-Greek state is based with religious affairs first and for all.What in common an arvanite,vlach,sarakatsani,mainland Greek used to had those times with a Christian Greek speaking from Asia Minor or even from the islands(like Crete,Cyprus and Dodecannese) i would say?Pretty much nothing...with exception their Christian faith and the fact that they used to speak the same dialect(and ofc not all of them).The 'Greeks' died with the arrival of the Roman/Byzantine Empire...both their genetics and their ethnics have come to an end.And as i mention above, orthodox christianity was the final end for them.All the rest we discuss here are fantasies for some nationalists.The funny thing is that even some Pontic Greeks with far-right views believe that they have a connection to ancient Greeks when their autosomal DNA is pretty much native to Northeast Anatolia.Genetics are here to prove wrong all these people and not only Greeks but even balkaners,Turks,Italians and so on.There are not 'pure' ethnic groups and the vast majority of the modern nations are builded upon different stuff/issues and definitely not on sharing the same blood...

I agree that culturally, the ancient Greek identity got supplanted by a Roman one until the 19th century. I also agree that Christianity was crucial in unifying the diverse nations that comprised the Eastern Roman Empire.

I disagree that ancient Greek genetics have disappeared. Yes, the gene pool of the Hellenes received a huge input of Levantine, Slav, Arvanite and Vlach admixture, but the ancient Greek component remains strong; otherwise most Greeks wouldn't score such high levels of Empuries/Imperial Roman admixture. So we are descended largely from Greeks, but not only from Greeks, as all the studies and our posts here in AG show. There wasn't a total annihilation of the Greek gene pool. I think this isn't controversial.

Also, the Greeks of Pontus and Cyprus may have a large (or predominant) "other" ancestry, but they are still Greeks, both due to their culture and to low or moderate Empuries like input.

The loss of the Greek identity and the arrival of Christianity is a historical fact, whether we like it or not.

However, I think a secular, European person obviously has more links with the cultural legacy of the ancient Greeks and the Romans, than with the religious fanaticism that defined the Roman Empire after 400 AD.

Us Greeks never experienced the Renaissance. And it shows...

dosas
02-18-2021, 03:59 PM
However, I think a secular, European person obviously has more links with the cultural legacy of the ancient Greeks and the Romans, than with the religious fanaticism that defined the Roman Empire after 400 AD.

Us Greeks never experienced the Renaissance. And it shows...


I don't want to start anything, since this thread is already derailed (sorry, OP) but the only reason the West, as you say, and the rest of the world, I might add, even knows about the Classical Era is due to those "fanatical" Byzantines who underwent great lengths to preserve, and often expand on, the works of the classical thinkers/scientists.

Johnny ola
02-18-2021, 04:04 PM
I agree that culturally, the ancient Greek identity got supplanted by a Roman one until the 19th century. I also agree that Christianity was crucial in unifying the diverse nations that comprised the Eastern Roman Empire.

I disagree that ancient Greek genetics have disappeared. Yes, the gene pool of the Hellenes received a huge input of Levantine, Slav, Arvanite and Vlach admixture, but the ancient Greek component remains strong; otherwise most Greeks wouldn't score such high levels of Empuries/Imperial Roman admixture. So we are descended largely from Greeks, but not only from Greeks, as all the studies and our posts here in AG show. There wasn't a total annihilation of the Greek gene pool. I think this isn't controversial.

Also, the Greeks of Pontus and Cyprus may have a large (or predominant) "other" ancestry, but they are still Greeks, both due to their culture and to low or moderate Empuries like input.

The loss of the Greek identity and the arrival of Christianity is a historical fact, whether we like it or not.

However, I think a secular, European person obviously has more links with the cultural legacy of the ancient Greeks and the Romans, than with the religious fanaticism that defined the Roman Empire after 400 AD.

Us Greeks never experienced the Renaissance. And it shows...

Modern Greek genetics even if you remove their northern steppe admixture still they are more west asian admixed than the samples we got from Bronze Age Greeks and the samples we also have from the classical period(Empuries2).Especially Greek islanders/Cypriots are very west asian admixed.As for mainland Greeks some of them indeed can score high 'Empuries2' like admixture but still many of them might show influences from Anatolia and the Levant.These influences probably took place in the transition period of hellenistic times to Roman/Byzantine ages.Thus Greek genetics become more west asian admixed and decreased their high EEF autosomal profile they used to had.Anyway,i think if the hellenistic kingdoms of Diadochi and other Greek states wouldn't had collapsed to Rome... things would have been quite different,at least for the Greek mainland from many kind of views(both in genetics and ethnics).But thats an other story,and we cannot discuss it here..

bovefex
02-18-2021, 04:05 PM
I don't want to start anything, since this thread is already derailed (sorry, OP)

I personally don't mind :)

bovefex
02-18-2021, 04:06 PM
Modern Greek genetics even if you remove their northern steppe admixture still they are more west asian admixed than the samples we got from Bronze Age Greeks and the samples we also have from the classical period(Empuries2).Especially Greek islanders/Cypriots are very west asian admixed.As for mainland Greeks some of them indeed can score high 'Empuries2' like admixture but still many of them might show influences from Anatolia and the Levant.These influences probably took place the transition period of hellenistic times to Roman/Byzantine ages.Thus Greek genetics become more west asian admixed and decreased their high EEF autosomal profile they used to had.Anyway,i think if the hellenistic kingdoms of Diadochi and other Greek states wouldn't had collapsed to Rome... things would have been quite different,at least for the Greek mainland from many kind of views(both in genetics and ethnics).But thats an other story,and we cannot discuss it here..

Why not? Because it's in the Turkish subforum?

Dorian9
02-18-2021, 04:07 PM
Don't want to derail ,just something for the Greek posters.

https://www.bitchute.com/video/NGrpPjNUoXny/

XXD
02-18-2021, 04:30 PM
I don't want to start anything, since this thread is already derailed (sorry, OP) but the only reason the West, as you say, and the rest of the world, I might add, even knows about the Classical Era is due to those "fanatical" Byzantines who underwent great lengths to preserve, and often expand on, the works of the classical thinkers/scientists.

True, but this does not change the fact that the Byzantines barely expanded on the ancient writers, or when they did so, it was through a strict Christian/theological point of view that did not allow them go very far. A very simple example are the medical and botanical works of Galen, Dioscorides and others. The Byzantines copied and readily used these texts; but for 1000 years they added almost zero new knowledge in these fields. Did the classical authors write such perfect manuscripts that the Byzantines had nothing to add? I don't think so.

May I also remind you that from 700 AD up to 1200 there was a massive anti-intellectual movement, which mocked how the pagan "fools" needed so many philosophical books to understand the world, whereas the Christians needed only one...

Knowledge is what you do with it. Yes, the Byzantines (and the Arabs) were transcribing classical texts, but the sciences and philosophy flourished only after the fall of Constantinople, when these texts were mediated to the West by the Byzantine refugees.

If the Byzantines were expanding upon the classical authors to the degree that you say, one would have expected at least some major innovations in the sciences and philosophy, which we generally do not see. OK there are some exceptions, but lets not kid ourselves.

The Eastern Roman Empire was remarkably important for global history, geopolitics, diplomacy, military strategy and the Christianisation of the Slavs. It also was a model of how to properly run an empire, which is why it lasted for so long. In short, it was a global power that shaped the modern world, and it is also of paramount importance for the history of Balkan, Caucasian and West Asian countries.

But lets not pretend it was something it was not, that is, a global hub of innovation and science. For that you need to go to late medieval and Renaissance Italy, Britain, Germany, France, Holland etc.

bovefex
02-18-2021, 04:34 PM
True, but this does not change the fact that the Byzantines barely expanded on the ancient writers, or when they did so, it was through a strict Christian point of view. May I remind yout that from 700 AD up to 1200 there was a massive antiintellectual movement, which mocked how the pagan "fools" needed so many philosophical books to udnerstand the world, whereas the Christians needed only one...

Knowledge is what you do with it. Yes, the Byzantines (and the Arabs) were transcribing classical texts, but the sciences and philosophy floorished only after the fall of Constantinople, when these texts were mediated to the West by the exiled Byzantines.

If the Byzantines were expanding upon the classical authors, one would have expected at least some major innovations in the sciences and philosophy, which we do not see. OK there are some exceptions, but lets not kid ourselves.

The Eastern Roman Empire was remarkably important for global history, geopolitics, diplomacy, military strategy and the Christianisation of the Slabs. In short, it was a global power that shaped the modern world. It is also of paramount importance for Balkan, Caucasian and West Asian countries.

But lets not pretend it was something it was not, that is a global hub of innovation and science. For that you need to go to late medieval and Renaissance Italy, Britain, Germany, France, Holland etc.

Isn't it possible that some innovations were lost during the sacking of Constantinople during the Fourth Crusade? Just wondering.

Johnny ola
02-18-2021, 04:35 PM
Why not? Because it's in the Turkish subforum?

What else do you want to know?Feel free to ask i have not problem to answer such questions.But i think Diadochi and other hellenistic post-Greek kingdoms of the period would had keep better both 'Greek' genetics and ethnics.I am not sure what they would have done with Christianity...thats a hard question to answer..:confused:

Johnny ola
02-18-2021, 04:38 PM
True, but this does not change the fact that the Byzantines barely expanded on the ancient writers, or when they did so, it was through a strict Christian/theological point of view that did not allow them go very far. May I remind you that from 700 AD up to 1200 there was a massive anti-intellectual movement, which mocked how the pagan "fools" needed so many philosophical books to understand the world, whereas the Christians needed only one...

Knowledge is what you do with it. Yes, the Byzantines (and the Arabs) were transcribing classical texts, but the sciences and philosophy flourished only after the fall of Constantinople, when these texts were mediated to the West by the Byzantine refugees.

If the Byzantines were expanding upon the classical authors to the degree that you say, one would have expected at least some major innovations in the sciences and philosophy, which we generally do not see. OK there are some exceptions, but lets not kid ourselves.

The Eastern Roman Empire was remarkably important for global history, geopolitics, diplomacy, military strategy and the Christianisation of the Slabs. It was also a model of how to properly run an empire, which is why it lasted for so long. In short, it was a global power that shaped the modern world, and it is also of paramount importance for the history of Balkan, Caucasian and West Asian countries.

But lets not pretend it was something it was not, that is, a global hub of innovation and science. For that you need to go to late medieval and Renaissance Italy, Britain, Germany, France, Holland etc.

The man responsible for Italian Renaissance is this Byzantine Greek(with ancestry from Trabzon).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bessarion


Another one is George of Trebizond.



In general humanism and Renaissance started from Byzantine refugees from Anatolia and Greece that settled to Italy after(and before) the collapse of Costantinoupoli.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_of_Trebizond

bovefex
02-18-2021, 04:38 PM
What else do you want to know?Feel free to ask i have not problem to answer such questions.But i think Diadochi and other hellenistic post-Greek kingdoms of the period would had keep better both 'Greek' genetics and ethnics.I am not sure what they would have done with Christianity...thats a hard question to answer..:confused:

Oh I have nothing I specifically want to know. I was just wondering why you said you couldn't discuss that here.

Johnny ola
02-18-2021, 04:44 PM
Oh I have nothing I specifically want to know. I was just wondering why you said you couldn't discuss that here.

I think we ruin the OP's thread.

dosas
02-18-2021, 04:45 PM
But lets not pretend it was something it was not, that is, a global hub of innovation and science. For that you need to go to late medieval and Renaissance Italy, Britain, Germany, France, Holland etc.


No one said that, you are moving goalposts.

And the technological advancement the Western Renaissance brought to the world was largely a direct consequence of the Age of Discovery/Colonialism, that allowed the European Kingdoms of the time to amass great wealth in the form of resources, resilient grains (i.e. maize and potatoes) that could feed the population, etc.

The bottom line is the Classical Era Romanticism of modern Greece is largely a Western European experiment in expanding their geopolitics in an area that was, up until that point, almost completely closed to them.

XXD
02-18-2021, 04:50 PM
Isn't it possible that some innovations were lost during the sacking of Constantinople during the Fourth Crusade? Just wondering.

Sorry, I edited the post you quote, so there are some additions. We know that the Crusades in particular were one of the most culturally destructive events in the history of the region, so definitely, many things were lost.

But you really do see that the level of art drops dramatically after the 4th century AD. I mean, Theodosius closed all the philosophical schools, which were like the Universities of that time. For several centuries, everything that was pagan was viewed suspiciously at best. In fact, many Byzantine scholars went to great extents to reconcile historical figures (such as Alexander the Great and Julius Caesar) with Christianity, which they did successfully.

Another example comes from art. If you study the magnificent Christian frescoes of 300AD, it is clear that they represented a continuation of the tradition of the early Roman times (e.g. the Fayoum drawings). After this period, you see that the arts are abandoned and completely reinvented in to the Byzantine iconographic style, that completely lacks the skill and finesse of earlier Christian depictions. Even in pottery, you start seeing that during this era, pots have minimal decoration, and then painting is reinvented, but is of far inferior artistic skill...

I love and admire Byzantine history, and I consider myself fairly well read on this historical era. And I understand that Christianity was a necessary step towards unifying a vast and multicultural empire. BUT I object to the somewhat nationalist/religious view that the Byzantines excelled in everything, and that the sciences flourished etc.

Anyway, I do not want to derail the thread any further...

dosas
02-18-2021, 04:57 PM
BUT I object to the somewhat nationalist/religious view that the Byzantines excelled in everything, and that the sciences flourished etc.


Nationalists in Greece usually, if not always, focus on the Classical Era and pretend the Byzantine Empire never happened.

As for the achievements in architecture, art, etc, I disagree wholeheartedly to your idea that is somehow inferior to earlier more Classical depictions.

It's just depends on which lenses one uses to look at those.

bovefex
02-18-2021, 05:02 PM
I think we ruin the OP's thread.

I am the OP, lol. I personally do not mind the thread derailing all that much, because unless someone decides to post about the genetics of modern Anatolian Turks and their Greek-speaking ancestors again, the thread is going to die anyway.

Johnny ola
02-18-2021, 05:02 PM
Sorry, I edited the post you quote, so there are some additions. We know that the Crusades in particular were one of the most culturally destructive events in the history of the region, so definitely, many things were lost.

But you really do see that the level of art drops dramatically after the 4th century AD. I mean, Theodosius closed all the philosophical schools, which were like the Universities of that time. For several centuries, everything that was pagan was viewed suspiciously at best. In fact, many Byzantine scholars went to great extents to reconcile historical figures (such as Alexander the Great and Julius Caesar) with Christianity, which they did successfully.

Another example comes from art. If you study the magnificent Christian frescoes of 300AD, it is clear that they represented a continuation of the tradition of the early Roman times (e.g. the Fayoum drawings). After this period, you see that the arts are abandoned and completely reinvented in to the Byzantine iconographic style, that completely lacks the skill and finesse of earlier Christian depictions. Even in pottery, you start seeing that during this era, pots have minimal decoration, and then painting is reinvented, but is of far inferior artistic skill...

I love and admire Byzantine history, and I consider myself fairly well read on this historical era. And I understand that Christianity was a necessary step towards unifying a vast and multicultural empire. BUT I object to the somewhat nationalist/religious view that the Byzantines excelled in everything, and that the sciences flourished etc.

Anyway, I do not want to derail the thread any further...

Well,Christianity actually put in a place the degeneracy of Ancient Greeks.To be fair....ancient Greeks during the Diadochi times were a banch of lazy and degenerate folks drinking and doing orgies all day all time.That is also the reason why Romans defeated them.So,to put it simple.I don't think that Christianity and the Byzantine Empire was something glorious and superior compared to the Ancient Greek legacy but at least with Christianity the humans of the old world have become truly 'humans' :lol::laugh:

Adules
02-18-2021, 05:04 PM
Lay off the Richard Dawkins.


Well,Christianity actually put in a place the degeneracy of Ancient Greeks.

Nope. Every society of note within Europe was capable of maintaining their civilizations for quite some time.

Johnny ola
02-18-2021, 05:06 PM
I am the OP, lol. I personally do not mind the thread derailing all that much, because unless someone decides to post about the genetics of modern Anatolian Turks and their Greek-speaking ancestors again, the thread is going to die anyway.

I am gonna stop here xD.I am actually more intrested to speak about genetics.This turning to be a Sociology,Religious and Historical thread.I prefer genetics xD :)

Johnny ola
02-18-2021, 05:09 PM
Lay off the Richard Dawkins.



Nope. Every society of note within Europe was capable of maintaining their civilizations for quite some time.

I like Richard Dawkins as i like Lawrence Krauss but without Christianity this word would have been quite different IMO.

XXD
02-18-2021, 05:09 PM
Well,Christianity actually put in a place the degeneracy of Ancient Greeks.To be fair....ancient Greeks during the Diadochi times were a banch of lazy and degenerate folks drinking and doing orgies all day all time.That is also the reason why Romans defeated them.So,to put it simple.I don't think that Christianity and the Byzantine Empire was something glorious and superior compared to the Ancient Greek legacy but at least with Christianity the humans of the old world have become truly 'humans' :lol::laugh:

Hmm I am not sure about that. Most of the Byzantine Emperors were really into orgies if you read their biographies; they also had no hesitation to kill sons, fathers, brothers etc, like most people in position in power did in historic times. Also I am not sure how orgies are indicative of "cultural degeneration". Ancient Greece had many flaws that the Eastern Roman Empire didn't (and vice versa), but I wouldn't include their sexual habits in that category.

An example of cultural degeneration in my view are the gladiators of Rome and the hippodromos, but this is my personal opinion.

Johnny ola
02-18-2021, 05:13 PM
Hmm I am not sure about that. Most of the Byzantine Emperors were really into orgies if you read their biographies; they also had no hesitation to kill sons, fathers, brothers etc, like most people in position in power did in historic times. Also I am not sure how orgies are indicative of "cultural degeneration". Ancient Greece had many flaws that the Eastern Roman Empire didn't (and vice versa), but I wouldn't include their sexual habits in that category.

An example of cultural degeneration in my view are the gladiators of Rome and the hippodromos, but this is my personal opinion.

I dont know about orgies among Byzantine Emperors.For sure they had many mistress.Indeed they were killing their children(this is a medieval habit pretty much everywhere). Ηereditary stuff(you know).As for gladiators and colosseum this come to an end because of Christianity as well.

XXD
02-18-2021, 05:15 PM
I like Richard Dawkins as i like Lawrence Krauss but without Christianity this word would have been quite different IMO.

I have not made any statements regarding the existence or not of a god, which are outside the scope of AG. I am just describing what many people view as religious fanaticism, which definitely was prevalent for the historical periods discussed.

We are all products of our time, and as Greeks of course Christianity dominates our culture, ethics and history, whether we are religious or not. I have not contested this opinion anywhere.

Johnny ola
02-18-2021, 05:26 PM
I have not made any statements regarding the existence or not of a god, which are outside the scope of AG. I am just describing what many people view as religious fanaticism, which definitely was prevalent for the historical periods discussed.

We are all products of our time, and as Greeks of course Christianity dominates our culture, ethics and history, whether we are religious or not. I have not contested this opinion anywhere.

I am not a religious person( i am actually an Agnostic) but as you see me,i am mentioning the 'Pros' of Christianity and the changes it brought to the world(mostly for the good).And yes... i completely agree with you that it is something traditional and part of our heritage no1s doubt about it.In general the ideology of Christianity is good but quite unreal to take place in the human world.

Ajeje Brazorf
02-18-2021, 05:53 PM
There are no Greeks, just as there are no Italians, French or Germans. Who is more Greek between a Macedonian and a Cretan? Or between a Lombard and a Sicilian? Or between a Parisian and a Marseillais? Or between a Prussian and a Bavarian? In my personal opinion, "true" nation has a more regional connotation, while those above are nothing more than state and political identities. Obviously culture will always play a primary role at the expense of genetics, so anyone who speaks Greek regardless of their origins, will be Greek and the same goes for any other nation. Then to be honest, human beings are not monolithic trees, they move and blend. That's how it has always been and that's how it will continue to be, and I wonder what will become of current nationalities in 1000 or 2000 years....

Adules
02-18-2021, 06:10 PM
I have not made any statements regarding the existence or not of a god, which are outside the scope of AG. I am just describing what many people view as religious fanaticism, which definitely was prevalent for the historical periods discussed.

We are all products of our time, and as Greeks of course Christianity dominates our culture, ethics and history, whether we are religious or not. I have not contested this opinion anywhere.

Neither the Roman Empire or the Greeks were secular atheist progressives at their peaks. The Roman senators like Tacitus scorned Christians for how they refused to pay tribute to the Roman civic religion for example.

Chatzianastasoglou
02-18-2021, 06:13 PM
Reading the posts here, I have to say that it's ironic that today it's almost only the direct descendants of the Byzantines who are speaking about Byzantium with the outdated prejudice Voltaire did 250 years ago. You guys need to refresh your sources. Greek school education might have a certain complicity on that

Johnny ola
02-18-2021, 06:46 PM
There are no Greeks, just as there are no Italians, French or Germans. Who is more Greek between a Macedonian and a Cretan? Or between a Lombard and a Sicilian? Or between a Parisian and a Marseillais? Or between a Prussian and a Bavarian? In my personal opinion, "true" nation has a more regional connotation, while those above are nothing more than state and political identities. Obviously culture will always play a primary role at the expense of genetics, so anyone who speaks Greek regardless of their origins, will be Greek and the same goes for any other nation. Then to be honest, human beings are not monolithic trees, they move and blend. That's how it has always been and that's how it will continue to be, and I wonder what will become of current nationalities in 1000 or 2000 years....

You are right but you forgot something.That Greeks existed(even as different tribes,clans etc).They were not exactly all the same.For example,you had Dorian Greeks,Ionian Greeks, Aeolian Greeks and Achaeans.Ofc later Macedonians,Epirotes and other Northest Greek speaking populations took place but all of them had pretty much the same ancestry.They used to speak similar dialects,same gods/faith,quite close in culture with each other and they shared similar war tactics.Italy on the other hand was not so homogenous.Even South Italy was Greek in culture,ethnically and even by genetics.Italy saw a unification with the Romans.Before that it was more heterogeneous.You had the Greeks in the south(along with some Illyrian people).You had Celts(Cisalpine Gaul) at the north with various IE tribes at the northeast like Veneti.You had the Italic tribes that settled pretty much everywhere in the Italian peninsula.So,mainland Greece was by far more homogenous compared to Italy were you had more different people.The point is that both Greece and Italy are 2 newborn states,so there are diffrences among their populations both cultural and even by genetics if you ask me.

Ajeje Brazorf
02-18-2021, 07:23 PM
You are right but you forgot something.That Greeks existed(even as different tribes,clans etc).They were not exactly all the same.For example,you had Dorian Greeks,Ionian Greeks, Aeolian Greeks and Achaeans.Ofc later Macedonians,Epirotes and other Northest Greek speaking populations took place but all of them had pretty much the same ancestry.They used to speak similar dialects,same gods/faith,quite close in culture with each other and they shared similar war tactics.Italy on the other hand was not so homogenous.Even South Italy was Greek in culture,ethnically and even by genetics.Italy saw a unification with the Romans.Before that it was more heterogeneous.You had the Greeks in the south(along with some Illyrian people).You had Celts(Cisalpine Gaul) at the north with various IE tribes at the northeast like Veneti.You had the Italic tribes that settled pretty much everywhere in the Italian peninsula.So,mainland Greece was by far more homogenous compared to Italy were you had more different people.The point is that both Greece and Italy are 2 newborn states,so there are diffrences among their populations both cultural and even by genetics if you ask me.

Peoples with different languages and cultures are not always so "heterogeneous", we have seen this for example with the Etruscans who did not differ genetically from the Italics or even those who inhabited Croatia at that time. I doubt that prior to the Roman conquest southern Italy and Greece were genetically homogeneous or Mycenaean-like, I bet there must have been many many outliers even back then! It is necessary to verify with ancient DNA how much were genetically different all the different ethnic groups, but the ancient DNA is little and is usually of poor quality...

The point is that it has always been culture and language that created identities, but this is a viewpoint still tied to the past, clearly DNA should have more relevance. Then the thing is often very complex, in Italy we have been fighting for centuries not even between regions or macro-regions, but between cities! Often people identified themselves with their own city, but educated people defined themselves as Italian, just as a Swede would define himself as Scandinavian today.

Johnny ola
02-18-2021, 07:44 PM
Peoples with different languages and cultures are not always so "heterogeneous", we have seen this for example with the Etruscans who did not differ genetically from the Italics or even those who inhabited Croatia at that time. I doubt that prior to the Roman conquest southern Italy and Greece were genetically homogeneous or Mycenaean-like, I bet there must have been many many outliers even back then! It is necessary to verify with ancient DNA how much were genetically different all the different ethnic groups, but the ancient DNA is little and is usually of poor quality...

The point is that it has always been culture and language that created identities, but this is a viewpoint still tied to the past, clearly DNA should have more relevance. Then the thing is often very complex, in Italy we have been fighting for centuries not even between regions or macro-regions, but between cities! Often people identified themselves with their own city, but educated people defined themselves as Italian, just as a Swede would define himself as Scandinavian today.

My post above had not to do so much with genetics but more about heritage/ancestry. Italian Is a more recent phenomenon Witch means pretty much the unification of the residents of the Italian pensisulia.Greeks/Hellenes on the other hand were a group of people/tribes that existed For centuries and goes back to the bronze Age period. But modern Greece and Italy are mostly children states of their former Roman/Byzantine Empire legacy. That Is why I am not comparing here Italians(who are a more recent phenomenon) with the Greeks(who are one of the oldest people) along with Persians/Iranians In the history of the world.

Andrewid
02-18-2021, 10:26 PM
There are no Greeks, just as there are no Italians, French or Germans. Who is more Greek between a Macedonian and a Cretan? Or between a Lombard and a Sicilian? Or between a Parisian and a Marseillais? Or between a Prussian and a Bavarian? In my personal opinion, "true" nation has a more regional connotation, while those above are nothing more than state and political identities. Obviously culture will always play a primary role at the expense of genetics, so anyone who speaks Greek regardless of their origins, will be Greek and the same goes for any other nation. Then to be honest, human beings are not monolithic trees, they move and blend. That's how it has always been and that's how it will continue to be, and I wonder what will become of current nationalities in 1000 or 2000 years....

Precisely! And seeing that this thread has already been derailed:):


Ethnic identity depends on a social contract amongst the in-group. In this sense, we are talking about a social construction. Undoubtedly, there are some essentialist elements. One of these factors is a common language, though even in this case there is often a homogenising process as the elite chooses its official language- Tuscan in Italy, Katharevousa-Demotic in Greece. In the Greek world, as elsewhere, the dialects themselves form a continuum of contiguous groups, with the exception of Tsakonian (non-Koine derived) and outlying Pontian. Dialectal differences within Greece itself have largely been the victim of the linguistic homogenising process.

Other unifying factors include a common religion- the Greek catholic islanders of Syros have always felt excluded somewhat from the national whole, let alone Greek-speaking Muslims in Greek Macedonia, Crete and Cyprus. Perceived common culture can also permeate from common religious feasts, common national holidays and festivals.

Music is a also a good viewing glass into Greek regionalism- it also works as a cline, just as we witness with genetics. Epirote music shares much with music across the Albanian border. Aegean island music is much more reminiscent of the folk sounds of Cyprus, than to those of Greek Thrace. Outside of folk, the universal resonance of Greek laika, entehna and pop act as a unifying factor.

National costumes and cuisine also represent a cline. The folk costumes of Dodecanesians, Cretans and Cypriots share many common attributes, for example. I know of some dishes which I always considered to be peculiarly Cypriot that can be found on Rhodes. But there is a perceived Greek 'national' cuisine too.

All 'nations' reinvent themselves according to historic circumstances, giving different weight to the various essentialist components as appropriate. Sometimes we are even talking about survival strategies. Intellectuals create historiographies according to their own world view and ideology. It was Constantine Paparrigopoulos in his five volume Greek history, first published in 1868, who first highlighted a continuum within Greek history, rejecting the Western orientalist view of Byzantium, which had so influenced many of his contemporary Greeks. In his volume on Byzantium, he states: "...Greeks still sneer at this noble and proud mother of the modern Greek nation; and although the ignorant masses recognise that they owe their existence, their language, and their religion to her, scholars alone denounce her." This intellectual strand has long since tried to marry Romiosini with Hellenism- some Greek scholars giving more weight to one or other in the marriage.

It is appropriate that Paparrigopoulos was one of the staunchest critics of Jakob Fallmerayer's racial theories on the Greeks. Greekness and its continuity is not, except for some extreme right wing groups, based on genetics. For what it's worth, the 2017 Lazarides et al., study on the origins of the Minoans and Mycenaeans, found that: "We estimated the fixation index, FST, of Bronze Age populations with present-day West Eurasians, finding that Mycenaeans were least differentiated from populations from Greece, Cyprus, Albania, and Italy." Mycenaeans and Minoans were undoubtedly related themselves to Bronze Age populations of western Anatolia, with the former having additional Steppe ancestry from the hunter-gatherers of eastern Europe and Siberia. The fact that Albanians are included shows the relatedness of paleo-Balkan peoples anyway. Southern Italians and Cypriot Greeks share the common Graeco-Aegean element that puts them at opposite ends of the Mediterranean genetic continuum, identified by many other researchers. But Calabrians and Albanians are not Greek, simply because they do not feel Greek. If Pontians are genetic outliers to other Greeks, it counts for nothing in the way the Greek nation is socially constructed today.


Ethnic identity is undoubtedly dynamic. Some Karamanli Turkish-speakers chose to follow a different path from a Greek national identity, led by the Pontian Papa Eftim. It was their choice. The Scots of today no longer interpret their place in the world in the way they did say 50 years ago. The idea of being 'British' is now as stable as a highland torrent.

For Greeks, there was an undoubted transition from Romioi to Hellenes but even that needs a discourse analysis of what we mean by these terms at any one time or location.

And just to put matters into context, let's reconsider what Charanis is reported to have said about his native Lemnos, as cited by Kalldelis in his 'Byzantium in Hellenism':

When the island was occupied by the Greek navy [in 1912], Greek soldiers were sent to the villages and stationed themselves in the public squares. Some of us children ran to see what these Greek soldiers, these Hellenes, looked like. ‘‘What are you looking at?’’ one of them asked. ‘‘At Hellenes,’’ we replied. ‘‘Are you not Hellenes yourselves?’’ he retorted. ‘‘No, we are Romans.’

Ajeje Brazorf
02-18-2021, 11:17 PM
Precisely! And seeing that this thread has already been derailed:):


Ethnic identity depends on a social contract amongst the in-group. In this sense, we are talking about a social construction. Undoubtedly, there are some essentialist elements. One of these factors is a common language, though even in this case there is often a homogenising process as the elite chooses its official language- Tuscan in Italy, Katharevousa-Demotic in Greece. In the Greek world, as elsewhere, the dialects themselves form a continuum of contiguous groups, with the exception of Tsakonian (non-Koine derived) and outlying Pontian. Dialectal differences within Greece itself have largely been the victim of the linguistic homogenising process.

Other unifying factors include a common religion- the Greek catholic islanders of Syros have always felt excluded somewhat from the national whole, let alone Greek-speaking Muslims in Greek Macedonia, Crete and Cyprus. Perceived common culture can also permeate from common religious feasts, common national holidays and festivals.

Music is a also a good viewing glass into Greek regionalism- it also works as a cline, just as we witness with genetics. Epirote music shares much with music across the Albanian border. Aegean island music is much more reminiscent of the folk sounds of Cyprus, than to those of Greek Thrace. Outside of folk, the universal resonance of Greek laika, entehna and pop act as a unifying factor.

National costumes and cuisine also represent a cline. The folk costumes of Dodecanesians, Cretans and Cypriots share many common attributes, for example. I know of some dishes which I always considered to be peculiarly Cypriot that can be found on Rhodes. But there is a perceived Greek 'national' cuisine too.

All 'nations' reinvent themselves according to historic circumstances, giving different weight to the various essentialist components as appropriate. Sometimes we are even talking about survival strategies. Intellectuals create historiographies according to their own world view and ideology. It was Constantine Paparrigopoulos in his five volume Greek history, first published in 1868, who first highlighted a continuum within Greek history, rejecting the Western orientalist view of Byzantium, which had so influenced many of his contemporary Greeks. In his volume on Byzantium, he states: "...Greeks still sneer at this noble and proud mother of the modern Greek nation; and although the ignorant masses recognise that they owe their existence, their language, and their religion to her, scholars alone denounce her." This intellectual strand has long since tried to marry Romiosini with Hellenism- some Greek scholars giving more weight to one or other in the marriage.

It is appropriate that Paparrigopoulos was one of the staunchest critics of Jakob Fallmerayer's racial theories on the Greeks. Greekness and its continuity is not, except for some extreme right wing groups, based on genetics. For what it's worth, the 2017 Lazarides et al., study on the origins of the Minoans and Mycenaeans, found that: "We estimated the fixation index, FST, of Bronze Age populations with present-day West Eurasians, finding that Mycenaeans were least differentiated from populations from Greece, Cyprus, Albania, and Italy." Mycenaeans and Minoans were undoubtedly related themselves to Bronze Age populations of western Anatolia, with the former having additional Steppe ancestry from the hunter-gatherers of eastern Europe and Siberia. The fact that Albanians are included shows the relatedness of paleo-Balkan peoples anyway. Southern Italians and Cypriot Greeks share the common Graeco-Aegean element that puts them at opposite ends of the Mediterranean genetic continuum, identified by many other researchers. But Calabrians and Albanians are not Greek, simply because they do not feel Greek. If Pontians are genetic outliers to other Greeks, it counts for nothing in the way the Greek nation is socially constructed today.


Ethnic identity is undoubtedly dynamic. Some Karamanli Turkish-speakers chose to follow a different path from a Greek national identity, led by the Pontian Papa Eftim. It was their choice. The Scots of today no longer interpret their place in the world in the way they did say 50 years ago. The idea of being 'British' is now as stable as a highland torrent.

For Greeks, there was an undoubted transition from Romioi to Hellenes but even that needs a discourse analysis of what we mean by these terms at any one time or location.

And just to put matters into context, let's reconsider what Charanis is reported to have said about his native Lemnos, as cited by Kalldelis in his 'Byzantium in Hellenism':

When the island was occupied by the Greek navy [in 1912], Greek soldiers were sent to the villages and stationed themselves in the public squares. Some of us children ran to see what these Greek soldiers, these Hellenes, looked like. ‘‘What are you looking at?’’ one of them asked. ‘‘At Hellenes,’’ we replied. ‘‘Are you not Hellenes yourselves?’’ he retorted. ‘‘No, we are Romans.’

I agree with you 100%. And if nations were based on autosomal DNA it would really be a mess! Imagine staring at a rainbow and trying to figure out where red ends and orange begins, or where orange ends and yellow begins. Much more convenient to have identities that follow artificial borders and match the boundaries of a state, a little less convenient when it causes two world wars XD (I am being ironic).

eolien
02-19-2021, 10:06 AM
And just to put matters into context, let's reconsider what Charanis is reported to have said about his native Lemnos, as cited by Kalldelis in his 'Byzantium in Hellenism':

When the island was occupied by the Greek navy [in 1912], Greek soldiers were sent to the villages and stationed themselves in the public squares. Some of us children ran to see what these Greek soldiers, these Hellenes, looked like. ‘‘What are you looking at?’’ one of them asked. ‘‘At Hellenes,’’ we replied. ‘‘Are you not Hellenes yourselves?’’ he retorted. ‘‘No, we are Romans.’

what you cited above reminded me a passage from Turkish book Yaban (1932) based on the personal experiences of the author Yakup Kadri during the Kemalist national struggle. During a conversation in a village the protagonist, representing the educated pro-kemalist official asks rhetorecially how one can be a Turk and not be on the side of Kemal Pasha. The villager replies : "we are not Turks, we are Islam (i.e. Muslim), those you call Turks live in Haymana" (near Ankara) meaning pastoral or semi-nomadic Turkmens.

Of course we learned much more about the identity formations during the last 40 years. It is clear that every identity needs a counter-identity to distinguish itself like every color needs another colour name to be able to exist. Most people cannot deal with multiple identities or contradictory traits, you cannot love 2 people , you cannot have 2 passports, you cannot be a fan of 2 footbal teams at the same time etc.

In modern nationalism the main reason for that is both obvious and complicated at the same time but it is not part of the thread unfortunately :)



Ethnic identity is undoubtedly dynamic. Some Karamanli Turkish-speakers chose to follow a different path from a Greek national identity, led by the Pontian Papa Eftim.

afaik Papa Eftim was not pontian but karamanli like his congregation. He was born in Akdagmaden near Yozgat which cannot be considered as part of Pontus at all. Karamanli population extended up to Yozgat and Ankara in the north. He thought that the new rulers of Turkey would be willing to tolerate existence of a Turkish speaking Christian minority and not expel or kill the central anatolian greeks, having in mind what happened to Armenians in Kayseri in 1915 etc. I think in 1922 nobody had a clear idea about the outcome of the war, turkey's future borders, nature of the regime etc. At the end he and his friends were wrong but hindsight is 20/20. I think their pro-nationalist position were sincere and also pragmatic.

Maybe the relations between patriarchate and central anatolian greeks has never been good anyway. It is pausible if you consider their attitude towards arabic speaking co-religionists until now. The greek army was located too far and the community of the central anatolia made a strategic choice for survival.

Andrewid
02-19-2021, 11:32 AM
what you cited above reminded me a passage from Turkish book Yaban (1932) based on the personal experiences of the author Yakup Kadri during the Kemalist national struggle. During a conversation in a village the protagonist, representing the educated pro-kemalist official asks rhetorecially how one can be a Turk and not be on the side of Kemal Pasha. The villager replies : "we are not Turks, we are Islam (i.e. Muslim), those you call Turks live in Haymana" (near Ankara) meaning pastoral or semi-nomadic Turkmens.

Of course we learned much more about the identity formations during the last 40 years. It is clear that every identity needs a counter-identity to distinguish itself like every color needs another colour name to be able to exist. Most people cannot deal with multiple identities or contradictory traits, you cannot love 2 people , you cannot have 2 passports, you cannot be a fan of 2 footbal teams at the same time etc.

In modern nationalism the main reason for that is both obvious and complicated at the same time but it is not part of the thread unfortunately :)

Fascinating. As you correctly say, many people have difficulty dealing with multiple identities which operate in concentric circles around the person, onion-like. This can unfortunately lead to varying degrees of cognitive dissonance. As you say, way off topic for this thread:)





afaik Papa Eftim was not pontian but karamanli like his congregation. He was born in Akdagmaden near Yozgat which cannot be considered as part of Pontus at all. Karamanli population extended up to Yozgat and Ankara in the north. He thought that the new rulers of Turkey would be willing to tolerate existence of a Turkish speaking Christian minority and not expel or kill the central anatolian greeks, having in mind what happened to Armenians in Kayseri in 1915 etc. I think in 1922 nobody had a clear idea about the outcome of the war, turkey's future borders, nature of the regime etc. At the end he and his friends were wrong but hindsight is 20/20. I think their pro-nationalist position were sincere and also pragmatic.

Maybe the relations between patriarchate and central anatolian greeks has never been good anyway. It is pausible if you consider their attitude towards arabic speaking co-religionists until now. The greek army was located too far and the community of the central anatolia made a strategic choice for survival.

Papa Eftim's family origins apparently lie in Shabin-Karahisar in the Pontus, though as you say he was born in Akdagmaden. More multiple identities:) His plan for Karamanlides was undoubtedly formulated because of a survival strategy. We do witness this phenomenon when minority groups feel the need to be incorporated into the majority identity. Christian ideologues of the Nahda are one example. Alevis and Kemalist secular Turkish identity are perhaps another. In post-1974 Cyprus, we had the appearance of neo-Cypriotism. But way, way off topic:)

dosas
02-19-2021, 11:35 AM
Ethnic identity is undoubtedly dynamic. Some Karamanli Turkish-speakers chose to follow a different path from a Greek national identity, led by the Pontian Papa Eftim. It was their choice.


Papa Eftim was not Pontic but Cappadocian, like the poster above mentioned.

I noticed that, in the literature, Cappadocians are often mentioned as Leuco-Syrians (Λευκοσύροι), White Syrians, and are said to inhabit Cappadocia all the way up to the Western Shores of the Pontic shores, in Sinope and westwards.

Some authors consider them Assyrians who were Hellenised during Hellenistic times (Seleucids) and then Romanised, others trace their origin as a branch of Isaurians.

They have a very different ethnographic profile to Eastern Pontic Greeks.

Johnny ola
02-19-2021, 12:21 PM
Western Pontians, Cappadocian Greeks and other Asia Minor christians from Smyrna, Instabul, Brusa etc were turkophone. These people had nothing to do culturally and Even ethnically I would say with EasternPontians who were more Like a highlander population speaking pretty much One of the most consersative and old Greek dialects(very close to Attic-Ionic). Different dances, habits, diet etc. We should Not categorize Eastern Pontians with other Asia Minor Greeks If its possible.

Michalis Moriopoulos
02-19-2021, 12:21 PM
No ~4,000 year-old ethnic group could possibly remain culturally or genetically static in a region as dynamic as West Eurasia. There have been Greeks since the Bronze Age and the ethnos has continued to evolve since then. They've been called different things and integrated foreign groups over time, but they're still Greeks. There might have been a time after Christianization when being descendants of "pagan Hellenes" would not have mattered to them, but the first-language Greek-speaking people of the Byzantine Empire were still Greeks by any reasonable etic (versus emic) ethnographic standard. They might not have called themselves "Greeks" or "Hellenes" during those times, but so what? An endonym can become an exonym and then become an endonym again. The history of Greek nationalism in the wake of philhellenism doesn't contradict any of this. Lots of nationalisms arose in the modern era.

XXD
02-19-2021, 01:39 PM
No ~4,000 year-old ethnic group could possibly remain culturally or genetically static in a region as dynamic as West Eurasia. There have been Greeks since the Bronze Age and the ethnos has continued to evolve since then. They've been called different things and integrated foreign groups over time, but they're still Greeks. There might have been a time after Christianization when being descendants of "pagan Hellenes" would not have mattered to them, but the first-language Greek-speaking people of the Byzantine Empire were still Greeks by any reasonable etic (versus emic) ethnographic standard. They might not have called themselves "Greeks" or "Hellenes" during those times, but so what? An endonym can become an exonym and then become an endonym again. The history of Greek nationalism in the wake of philhellenism doesn't contradict any of this. Lots of nationalisms arose in the modern era.

Well said, well said!

Andrewid
02-19-2021, 01:48 PM
Papa Eftim was not Pontic but Cappadocian, like the poster above mentioned.

Always good to check sources. I'd love to see sources that reject the orthodox consensus that he was of Pontian origin.

This is what Alexis Alexandris says on the matter:

"Ποντιακής καταγωγής, ό Παπά Εύθύμ, πού προτού χειροτονηθεί το κοσμικό του ονομα ήταν Παύλος Καραχισαρίδης, γεννήθηκε το 1884 στο Akdagmaden τής 'Τοσγάτης."

And "... ήταν γνωστός καί σάν Καραχισαρλίογλου. Ή ονομασία του προέρχεται άπό τήν οικογενειακή του καταγωγή άπό τό Σαμπίν Καράχισαρ τοΰ Πόντου."


Αλεξανδρής Αλέξης: 'Η Απόπειρα Δημιουργίας Τουρκορθόδοξης Εκκλησίας στην Καππαδοκία', 1921-1923, στο Δελτίο Κέντρου Μικρασιατικών Σπουδών, τόμ. Δ ́, Αθήνα 1983, σελ. 159-199

Some even suggest a Ponto-Laz origin but I don't see any reliable source for this. It may be the conjecture of Greek nationalist circles who wish to 'dehellenize' him completely.

Greek wiki and many others seem to accept his Pontian background:

https://el.wikipedia.org/wiki/%CE%95%CF%85%CE%B8%CF%8D%CE%BC%CE%B9%CE%BF%CF%82_% CE%9A%CE%B1%CF%81%CE%B1%CF%87%CE%B9%CF%83%CE%B1%CF %81%CE%AF%CE%B4%CE%B7%CF%82

Johnny ola
02-19-2021, 01:56 PM
Always good to check sources. This is what Alexis Alexandris says on the matter:

"Ποντιακής καταγωγής, ό Παπά Εύθύμ, πού προτού χειροτονηθεί το κοσμικό του ονομα ήταν Παύλος Καραχισαρίδης, γεννήθηκε το 1884 στο Akdagmaden τής 'Τοσγάτης."

And "... ήταν γνωστός καί σάν Καραχισαρλίογλου. Ή ονομασία του προέρχεται άπό τήν οικογενειακή του καταγωγή άπό τό Σαμπίν Καράχισαρ τοΰ Πόντου."


Αλεξανδρής Αλέξης: 'Η Απόπειρα Δημιουργίας Τουρκορθόδοξης Εκκλησίας στην Καππαδοκία', 1921-1923, στο Δελτίο Κέντρου Μικρασιατικών Σπουδών, τόμ. Δ ́, Αθήνα 1983, σελ. 159-199

Some even suggest a Ponto-Laz origin but I don't see any reliable source for this. It may be the conjecture of Greek nationalist circles who wish to 'dehellenize' him completely.

Greek wiki and many others seem to accept his Pontian background:

https://el.wikipedia.org/wiki/%CE%95%CF%85%CE%B8%CF%8D%CE%BC%CE%B9%CE%BF%CF%82_% CE%9A%CE%B1%CF%81%CE%B1%CF%87%CE%B9%CF%83%CE%B1%CF %81%CE%AF%CE%B4%CE%B7%CF%82

This area/province does not belongs in Pontus.Yozgat is a cappadocian province/area.Pontus starts/begins from Sinope and it ends to Rize(western rize).

bovefex
02-19-2021, 02:45 PM
Western Pontians, Cappadocian Greeks and other Asia Minor christians from Smyrna, Instabul, Brusa etc were turkophone. These people had nothing to do culturally and Even ethnically I would say with EasternPontians who were more Like a highlander population speaking pretty much One of the most consersative and old Greek dialects(very close to Attic-Ionic). Different dances, habits, diet etc. We should Not categorize Eastern Pontians with other Asia Minor Greeks If its possible.

With Western Pontus, are you talking about everything west of Trabzon or everything west of something like Sinope?

Andrewid
02-19-2021, 02:49 PM
This area/province does not belongs in Pontus.Yozgat is a cappadocian province/area.Pontus starts/begins from Sinope and it ends to Rize(western rize).

Oh is Shabin-Karahisar not in the Pontus? We're not talking about Yozgat. Shabin-Karahisar (Σαμπίν Καράχισαρ) is where the sources indicate Papa Eftim's family originates from.

https://i.imgur.com/T7vU2bN.png

Anyway, this thread has already been drastically derailed without further tangents:)

Johnny ola
02-19-2021, 03:01 PM
With Western Pontus, are you talking about everything west of Trabzon or everything west of something like Sinope?

Sinope,Amasya,Nikser,Tokat,Samsun belong to western Pontus.

Ordu/Kotyora is somewhere in the middle.


Giresun,Trabzon,Gumushane,Rize are eastern Pontic lands/areas.

Western Pontus=mostly turkophone(with some of them being bilingual).Εastern Pontus=Greek speaking.And there are cultural diffrences between them as well.Eastern Pontus culturally is very native while Western Pontus is closer to other asia minor Greeks/christians with their culture being pretty much the same with that of Ottomans/Turks.

Now in terms of autosomal DNA eastern Pontus is more CHG shifted.While western Pontus seems to be closer to Capapadocian Greeks.2 gedmatch kits i have seen from western Pontians their results were not exactly the same with those of Eastern Pontics.

Johnny ola
02-19-2021, 03:06 PM
Oh is Shabin-Karahisar not in the Pontus? We're not talking about Yozgat. Shabin-Karahisar (Σαμπίν Καράχισαρ) is where the sources indicate Papa Eftim's family originates from.

https://i.imgur.com/T7vU2bN.png

Anyway, this thread has already been drastically derailed without further tangents:)

He was born in Akdağmadeni.I don't know other details about his ancestry but yes Shabin-Karahisar it used to be a Pontic area with Pontians and Armenians live there.Τhe point is that he definitely did not grown up like a Pontian,i can tell you that.He was culturally and ethnically much closer to Cappadocian Greeks.

dosas
02-19-2021, 03:30 PM
Always good to check sources. I'd love to see sources that reject the orthodox consensus that he was of Pontian origin.



Turcophones (as he was) were not Pontic Greeks proper, that's all we need to know about his origins. I don't have anything against them, but I think it's ridiculous that every "Tom, Dick and Harry" of Anatolia gets labelled as "Pontic Greek", in order to get their turn in a historical/ethnographic "white-wash" so to speak.

Pontic Greeks are strictly Romeyka speakers, do not have Turkish names but strictly Greek-Christian ones (not dual ones either) and overlap in their ethnography with neighboring Laz and Hemshenli (obviously in their genetics too) and come from Trabzon, Rize, and Gumushane (and maybe Giresun, too, not decided on this). They are essentially a Caucasian group with a shift to Greece.

Every other community/group of Anatolian Greeks that uses the title does so in a manner of appropriation.

Johnny ola
02-19-2021, 03:50 PM
Turcophones (as he was) were not Pontic Greeks proper, that's all we need to know about his origins. I don't have anything against them, but I think it's ridiculous that every "Tom, Dick and Harry" of Anatolia gets labelled as "Pontic Greek", in order to get their turn in a historical/ethnographic "white-wash" so to speak.

Pontic Greeks are strictly Romeyka speakers, do not have Turkish names but strictly Greek-Christian ones (not dual ones either) and overlap in their ethnography with neighboring Laz and Hemshenli (obviously in their genetics too) and come from Trabzon, Rize, and Gumushane (and maybe Giresun, too, not decided on this). They are essentially a Caucasian group with a shift to Greece.

Every other community/group of Anatolian Greeks that uses the title does so in a manner of appropriation.

Giresun should be inclunded as well.Their genetics are easternPontic and they speak Pontic Greek.Culturally also easternPontian like.

bovefex
02-19-2021, 04:01 PM
Giresun should be inclunded as well.Their genetics are easternPontic and they speak Pontic Greek.Culturally also easternPontian like.

But for example, would the native-Anatolia ancestry of Turks from Giresun be Trabzonian-like, or Cappadocian-like? Wasn't the Empire of Trebizond and its regions one of the last in Anatolia to be conquered by the Turks, too?

Johnny ola
02-19-2021, 04:14 PM
But for example, would the native-Anatolia ancestry of Turks from Giresun be Trabzonian-like, or Cappadocian-like? Wasn't the Empire of Trebizond and its regions one of the last in Anatolia to be conquered by the Turks, too?

Modern Giresun Turks Are very Turkoman admixed. Their genetics Are definitely not Like the Trabzon Turks. The reason for it, simply because Ottomans transfered a Huge amount of Ottoman population in the area of Pontus to conquer the empire of Trebizond. Thus these people stayed There and mixed with the native population. That Is why they showing high 'Turkoman' Like DNA while Trabzon Turks and Even those from Rize/Gumushane limited to almost none.Giresun Greeks on the other hand do not differ from other eastern Pontics. They are mostly a combination of caucasian tribes+Anatolians with Some limited Greek and Levantine influences.

bovefex
02-19-2021, 04:22 PM
Modern Giresun Turks Are very Turkoman admixed. Their genetics Are definitely not Like the Trabzon Turks. The reason for it, simply because Ottomans transfered a Huge amount of Ottoman population in the area of Pontus to conquer the empire of Trebizond. Thus these people stayed There and mixed with the native population. That Is why they showing high 'Turkoman' Like DNA while Trabzon Turks and Even those from Rize/Gumushane limited to almost none.Giresun Greeks on the other hand do not differ from other eastern Pontics. They are mostly a combination of caucasian tribes+Anatolians with Some limited Greek and Levantine influences.

I was talking about the native part of their ancestry, not the Turkoman admixture. Sorry if I was unclear.

Johnny ola
02-19-2021, 04:32 PM
But for example, would the native-Anatolia ancestry of Turks from Giresun be Trabzonian-like, or Cappadocian-like? Wasn't the Empire of Trebizond and its regions one of the last in Anatolia to be conquered by the Turks, too?

This one is 100% from Giresun.



Distance to: MarcusUncle_scaled
0.02036583 Greek_Trabzon
0.02354180 Turkish_Trabzon
0.02731509 Armenian_Hemsheni
0.02888432 Armenian
0.03479506 Georgian_Laz
0.03602226 Greek_Cappadocia
0.04127420 Greek_Central_Anatolia
0.04383884 Udi
0.04494454 Assyrian
0.04599772 Georgian_Jew
0.05264660 Turkish_East
0.05287387 Georgian_Imer
0.05677921 Mountain_Jew
0.05725878 Iranian_Jew
0.05781260 Iraqi_Jew
0.06199010 Cypriot
0.06235767 Druze
0.06244353 Lebanese_Druze
0.06293577 Turkish_Kayseri
0.06374690 Kurdish
0.06411059 Greek_Dodecanese
0.06446160 Syrian_Jew
0.06499760 Abkhasian
0.06515397 Greek_Kos
0.06642834 Azeri_Turkey


Target: MarcusUncle_scaled
Distance: 1.9325% / 0.01932514
42.2 Greek_Trabzon
32.4 Greek_Cappadocia
18.0 Georgian_Imer
4.4 Armenian_Hemsheni
3.0 Iraqi_Jew



Target: MarcusUncle_scaled
Distance: 2.1021% / 0.02102080
43.2 RUS_North_Caucasus_MBA
22.0 TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA
16.6 Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2
16.2 Levant_Megiddo_IA
2.0 RUS_Catacomb



Target: MarcusUncle_scaled
Distance: 2.0307% / 0.02030720
51.6 RUS_Maykop_Novosvobodnaya
18.0 Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2
16.0 TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA
14.4 Levant_Megiddo_IA



Target: MarcusUncle_scaled
Distance: 2.0487% / 0.02048655
53.0 RUS_Maykop_Novosvobodnaya
18.4 Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2
14.8 TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA
13.8 Levant_Baqah_BA

Johnny ola
02-19-2021, 04:39 PM
I was talking about the native part of their ancestry, not the Turkoman admixture. Sorry if I was unclear.


It would have been close to the easternpontic average IMO.It seems the CHG admixture is decreasing as you moving more western to Ordu,Samsun etc.Western Pontus in general was never part of the Colchian culture.Colchian tribes existed from Artvin/Rize all the way to Ordu somewhere.So,the genetics there were somewhere between Eastern Pontians and Cappadocian Greeks.

bovefex
02-19-2021, 05:05 PM
It would have been close to the easternpontic average IMO.It seems the CHG admixture is decreasing as you moving more western to Ordu,Samsun etc.Western Pontus in general was never part of the Colchian culture.Colchian tribes existed from Artvin/Rize all the way to Ordu somewhere.So,the genetics there were somewhere between Eastern Pontians and Cappadocian Greeks.

But would a higher admixture of CHG be enough to conclude that their native-derived ancestry is of Pontic origin, and not Central Anatolian or a mix of the two? Didn't the Hittite themselves have an ok amount of CHG, too?

Johnny ola
02-19-2021, 05:14 PM
But would a higher admixture of CHG be enough to conclude that their native-derived ancestry is of Pontic origin, and not Central Anatolian or a mix of the two? Didn't the Hittite themselves have an ok amount of CHG, too?

High CHG shift in Pontus is associated with Colchians/Kartvelian tribes.Cappadocian Greeks have balance ratios of Iran N/CHG like the majority of Anatolians(both Turks and Greeks).The west asian input is increasing as you moving deeper from eastern cappadocia/central anatolia to eastern anatolia(historical western armenia) and ofc to northeast anatolia(eastern Pontus).

The CHG/Iran N ratios of Bronze Age Anatolia are normal(not more than 20%).

Targum
02-19-2021, 05:26 PM
This one is 100% from Giresun.



Distance to: MarcusUncle_scaled
0.02036583 Greek_Trabzon
0.02354180 Turkish_Trabzon
0.02731509 Armenian_Hemsheni
0.02888432 Armenian
0.03479506 Georgian_Laz
0.03602226 Greek_Cappadocia
0.04127420 Greek_Central_Anatolia
0.04383884 Udi
0.04494454 Assyrian
0.04599772 Georgian_Jew
0.05264660 Turkish_East
0.05287387 Georgian_Imer
0.05677921 Mountain_Jew
0.05725878 Iranian_Jew
0.05781260 Iraqi_Jew
0.06199010 Cypriot
0.06235767 Druze
0.06244353 Lebanese_Druze
0.06293577 Turkish_Kayseri
0.06374690 Kurdish
0.06411059 Greek_Dodecanese
0.06446160 Syrian_Jew
0.06499760 Abkhasian
0.06515397 Greek_Kos
0.06642834 Azeri_Turkey


Target: MarcusUncle_scaled
Distance: 1.9325% / 0.01932514
42.2 Greek_Trabzon
32.4 Greek_Cappadocia
18.0 Georgian_Imer
4.4 Armenian_Hemsheni
3.0 Iraqi_Jew



Target: MarcusUncle_scaled
Distance: 2.1021% / 0.02102080
43.2 RUS_North_Caucasus_MBA
22.0 TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA
16.6 Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2
16.2 Levant_Megiddo_IA
2.0 RUS_Catacomb



Target: MarcusUncle_scaled
Distance: 2.0307% / 0.02030720
51.6 RUS_Maykop_Novosvobodnaya
18.0 Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2
16.0 TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA
14.4 Levant_Megiddo_IA



Target: MarcusUncle_scaled
Distance: 2.0487% / 0.02048655
53.0 RUS_Maykop_Novosvobodnaya
18.4 Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2
14.8 TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA
13.8 Levant_Baqah_BA

Can you explain why there is such overlap with disparate Mizrahhi Jewish populations ; as opposed to the Western Jews (AJ, SyJ, SJ etc), whose Hellenic admixture is so much more obvious? I ask bercause Mizrahh-descended Jewish populations all descend from Bavli (Babylonian/Iraqi) Jewry, who lived under Parthia, not Rome/Byzantium, and did not live among Greeks like Western Jews in, for example, Israel Egypt,Anatolia, Syria, North Africa, Roman Spain, etc.

bovefex
02-19-2021, 05:28 PM
High CHG shift in Pontus is associated with Colchians/Kartvelian tribes.Cappadocian Greeks have balance ratios of Iran N/CHG like the majority of Anatolians(both Turks and Greeks).The west asian input is increasing as you moving deeper from eastern cappadocia/central anatolia to eastern anatolia(historical western armenia) and ofc to northeast anatolia(eastern Pontus).

The CHG/Iran N ratios of Bronze Age Anatolia are normal(not more than 20%).

So Trabzon Greeks can be used to model Turks, at least those from Pontus?

Also, do we have any Colchians samples?

EDIT: Also, what do you think about using Kura-Araxes when using Anatolians? I feel like it would eat up way too much of the BA Anatolian samples used.

Johnny ola
02-19-2021, 05:36 PM
Can you explain why there is such overlap with disparate Mizrahhi Jewish populations ; as opposed to the Western Jews (AJ, SyJ, SJ etc), whose Hellenic admixture is so much more obvious? I ask bercause Mizrahh-descended Jewish populations all descend from Bavli (Babylonian/Iraqi) Jewry, who lived under Parthia, not Rome/Byzantium, and did not live among Greeks like Western Jews in, for example, Israel Egypt,Anatolia, Syria, North Africa, Roman Spain, etc.

Western Jews are obviously more european admixed(they have both south euro mix and also north-northeast).Its impossible Pontic Greeks to overlap with them.Pontic Greeks overalp perfectly with mesopotamian/Levantine populations that is why they score cypriot,druze,lebanese,iraqi jew,iranian jew,caucasian jews and so on.Mizrahhi Jews are close to Assyrians,Armenians,Pontic Greeks etc because they sharing similar components/admixtures.In my situation my G25 list is mostly Jewish populations xD.



My G25.(I am probably the most outlier individual among Pontic Greeks and other EasternBlackSea populations.But in general many Pontic Greeks have levantine shift.


Distance to: Ioannis_scaled
0.03394454 Greek_Trabzon
0.03655854 Turkish_Trabzon
0.03821792 Greek_Cappadocia
0.03833705 Armenian
0.04456993 Armenian_Hemsheni
0.04672592 Greek_Central_Anatolia
0.04912104 Assyrian
0.05013990 Georgian_Jew
0.05067661 Georgian_Laz
0.05311565 Iraqi_Jew
0.05606800 Cypriot
0.05633974 Druze
0.05650106 Iranian_Jew
0.05686446 Lebanese_Druze
0.05775475 Karaite_Egypt
0.05965024 Syrian_Jew
0.06008650 Udi
0.06200954 Lebanese_Christian
0.06231574 Mountain_Jew
0.06310338 Lebanese_Muslim
0.06347380 Greek_Dodecanese
0.06442110 Turkish_East
0.06722241 Greek_Kos
0.06888460 Georgian_Imer
0.06972183 Turkish_Kayseri


If i remove the Eastern Pontic refrences i am coming like this:


Distance to: Ioannis_scaled
0.03821792 Greek_Cappadocia
0.03833705 Armenian
0.04672592 Greek_Central_Anatolia
0.04912104 Assyrian
0.05013990 Georgian_Jew
0.05311565 Iraqi_Jew
0.05606800 Cypriot
0.05633974 Druze
0.05650106 Iranian_Jew
0.05686446 Lebanese_Druze
0.05775475 Karaite_Egypt
0.05965024 Syrian_Jew
0.06008650 Udi
0.06200954 Lebanese_Christian
0.06231574 Mountain_Jew
0.06310338 Lebanese_Muslim
0.06347380 Greek_Dodecanese
0.06442110 Turkish_East
0.06722241 Greek_Kos
0.06888460 Georgian_Imer
0.06972183 Turkish_Kayseri
0.07052760 Romaniote_Jew
0.07125527 Syrian
0.07336663 Greek_Crete
0.07342108 Samaritan

Johnny ola
02-19-2021, 05:38 PM
So Trabzon Greeks can be used to model Turks, at least those from Pontus?

Also, do we have any Colchians samples?

EDIT: Also, what do you think about using Kura-Araxes when using Anatolians? I feel like it would eat up way too much of the BA Anatolian samples used.



No,Trabzon Greeks cannot model Turks.They are similar to Trabzon Turks thought.Cappadocian Greeks on the other hand can model Turkish people.

As for Colchians,not we have not samples yet but they would have been genetically pretty much like modern Laz and Western Georgians(rich in CHG).But its obvious that Colchians in northeast anatolia mixed with native Bronze Age anatolian like people witch can be seen from modern Pontic Greeks.

Leper
02-19-2021, 05:42 PM
No,Trabzon Greeks cannot model Turks.They are similar to Trabzon Turks thought.Cappadocian Greeks on the other hand can model Turkish people.

As for Colchians,not we have not samples yet but they would have been genetically pretty much like modern Laz and Western Georgians(rich in CHG).But its obvious that Colchians in northeast anatolia mixed with native Bronze Age anatolian like people witch can be seen from modern Pontic Greeks.

Turkish_North requires Trabzon Greek-like admix too.

Johnny ola
02-19-2021, 05:50 PM
Turkish_North requires Trabzon Greek-like admix too.




Hmmm,maybe yes!


Target: Turkish_North
Distance: 1.1036% / 0.01103568
45.4 TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA
25.2 KAZ_Karakhanid
12.8 RUS_North_Caucasus_MBA
8.8 RUS_Catacomb
7.8 Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2



Target: Turkish_North
Distance: 0.2643% / 0.00264327
27.0 Greek_Trabzon
25.8 Turkish_North
8.0 Albanian
6.2 Greek_Cappadocia
6.2 Iranian_Mazandarani
4.8 Shor_Mountain
4.0 Mongolian
3.6 Armenian
3.2 Tajik_Yagnobi
2.4 Italian_Lombardy
2.0 Greek_Crete
2.0 Italian_Basilicata
1.2 Azeri_Turkey
1.0 Tibetan_Gangcha
1.0 Yakut
0.8 Mari
0.4 Kaitag
0.2 Altaian
0.2 Papuan

bovefex
02-19-2021, 05:59 PM
Turkish_North requires Trabzon Greek-like admix too.

Don't they model just fine? I mean if you want to, you could also add Greek_Trabzon next to Greek_Central_Anatolia when modeling Centralites and Southerners, and that would improve the fit, too.

And the individuals who make up Turkish_North seem to either be from the eastern-extreme of said region or the western-extreme, which makes it difficult discern the actual Trabzonian impact, right?

Leper
02-19-2021, 06:05 PM
Don't they model just fine? I mean if you want to, you could also add Greek_Trabzon next to Greek_Central_Anatolia when modeling Centralites and Southerners, and that would improve the fit, too.

And the individuals who make up Turkish_North seem to either be from the eastern-extreme of said region or the western-extreme, which makes it difficult discern the actual Trabzonian impact, right?

Not really. I'm not sure about the Western-most Black Sea region right now but Central and Eastern Black Sea provinces (From Kastamonu to Giresun at least) show Maykop-like admix that can be represented by using Trabzon Greeks. Thats not the case with other Turkish regions you mentioned.

bovefex
02-19-2021, 06:05 PM
Hmmm,maybe yes!


Target: Turkish_North
Distance: 1.1036% / 0.01103568
45.4 TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA
25.2 KAZ_Karakhanid
12.8 RUS_North_Caucasus_MBA
8.8 RUS_Catacomb
7.8 Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2



Target: Turkish_North
Distance: 0.2643% / 0.00264327
27.0 Greek_Trabzon
25.8 Turkish_North
8.0 Albanian
6.2 Greek_Cappadocia
6.2 Iranian_Mazandarani
4.8 Shor_Mountain
4.0 Mongolian
3.6 Armenian
3.2 Tajik_Yagnobi
2.4 Italian_Lombardy
2.0 Greek_Crete
2.0 Italian_Basilicata
1.2 Azeri_Turkey
1.0 Tibetan_Gangcha
1.0 Yakut
0.8 Mari
0.4 Kaitag
0.2 Altaian
0.2 Papuan

Why no Iran sample? Also, could you run the second one again, but without Turkish_North in the reference list this time?

Johnny ola
02-19-2021, 06:11 PM
Why no Iran sample? Also, could you run the second one again, but without Turkish_North in the reference list this time?

Leper is right.Just played a little with the Turkish samples from north and northwest.Some of them require something close to Maykop.


Target: Turkish_North
Distance: 0.3503% / 0.00350326
37.4 Greek_Trabzon
11.6 Albanian
9.0 Azeri_Turkey
8.8 Tajik_Yagnobi
6.6 Mongolian
6.0 Greek_Cappadocia
4.8 Shor_Mountain
2.4 Armenian
2.4 Greek_Dodecanese
2.4 Italian_Basilicata
2.0 Italian_Molise
1.4 Iranian_Mazandarani
1.4 Yakut
1.2 Cypriot
0.8 Mari
0.8 Tibetan_Chamdo
0.2 Kashmiri_Pandit
0.2 Kosipe
0.2 Tajik
0.2 Turkish_Central
0.2 Turkmen

bovefex
02-19-2021, 06:11 PM
Not really. I'm not sure about the Western-most Black Sea region right now but Central and Eastern Black Sea provinces (From Kastamonu to Giresun at least) show Maykop-like admix that can be represented by using Trabzon Greeks. Thats not the case with other Turkish regions you mentioned.

Target /Distance /Greek_Central_Anatolia/ Greek_Trabzon/ KAZ_Karakhanid
Turkish_Central /0.01299590 /52.2 /28.4/ 19.4
Turkish_North/ 0.01347010 /49.0/ 26.0/ 25.0
Turkish_South/ 0.01485977 /49.4/ 22.0 /28.6
Turkish_Trabzon /0.00948327/ 16.2 /83.8/ 0.0
Average/ 0.01270226 /41.7 /40.0/ 18.3

Maybe I'm doing something wrong?

bovefex
02-19-2021, 06:12 PM
Leper is right.Just played a little with the Turkish samples from north and northwest.Some of them require something close to Maykop.


Target: Turkish_North
Distance: 0.3503% / 0.00350326
37.4 Greek_Trabzon
11.6 Albanian
9.0 Azeri_Turkey
8.8 Tajik_Yagnobi
6.6 Mongolian
6.0 Greek_Cappadocia
4.8 Shor_Mountain
2.4 Armenian
2.4 Greek_Dodecanese
2.4 Italian_Basilicata
2.0 Italian_Molise
1.4 Iranian_Mazandarani
1.4 Yakut
1.2 Cypriot
0.8 Mari
0.8 Tibetan_Chamdo
0.2 Kashmiri_Pandit
0.2 Kosipe
0.2 Tajik
0.2 Turkish_Central
0.2 Turkmen

Why would Northwest need something Maykop though?

Johnny ola
02-19-2021, 06:13 PM
Anyawy,without ancient samples from Paphlagonia and Pontus we are just guessworking here.It is very likely these lands to had been somewhere between Greek Cappadocia and Greek Pontus.But its obvious that western Pontus/Turkish north and northwest are way more steppe admixed.The eastern areas/provinces of Pontus lack steppe dna or they have limited(not more than 5-8%).

Johnny ola
02-19-2021, 06:16 PM
Why would Northwest need something Maykop though?


Turkish northwest does not show caucasian shift.My bad,excuse me.



Target: Turkish_Northwest
Distance: 1.0260% / 0.01026027
47.8 TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA
27.4 KAZ_Karakhanid
15.4 RUS_Catacomb
9.4 Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2

Leper
02-19-2021, 06:17 PM
Target /Distance /Greek_Central_Anatolia/ Greek_Trabzon/ KAZ_Karakhanid
Turkish_Central /0.01299590 /52.2 /28.4/ 19.4
Turkish_North/ 0.01347010 /49.0/ 26.0/ 25.0
Turkish_South/ 0.01485977 /49.4/ 22.0 /28.6
Turkish_Trabzon /0.00948327/ 16.2 /83.8/ 0.0
Average/ 0.01270226 /41.7 /40.0/ 18.3

Maybe I'm doing something wrong?

If you put Trabzon Greeks it'll divide Central Anatolian Greek percantage only. That doesn't mean anything. Same happens with Balkan Turks when representing their Anatolian admix. The situation with Turkish_North is different, as can be detected via using ancient Caucasus samples.

bovefex
02-19-2021, 06:23 PM
If you put Trabzon Greeks it'll divide Central Anatolian Greek percantage only. That doesn't mean anything. Same happens with Balkan Turks when representing their Anatolian admix. The situation with Turkish_North is different, as can be detected via using ancient Caucasus samples.

I see. Would you be willing to elaborate on how you detect that? Sounds interesting.


The eastern areas/provinces of Pontus lack steppe dna or they have limited(not more than 5-8%).

Don't most score close to zero?

Johnny ola
02-19-2021, 06:31 PM
I see. Would you be willing to elaborate on how you detect that? Sounds interesting.



Don't most score close to zero?


Yep,they majority does not score.My average Eastern Pontian steppe admixture is 3.2 :laugh::lol:

Keep in mind that the Levant input might decreased Steppe DNA.The Levant admixture in modern Eastern Pontics is not limited.

Check here how Genoplot models the Trabzon refrence.

https://imgur.com/BN70gDU

Cazu
02-19-2021, 06:35 PM
I was talking about the native part of their ancestry, not the Turkoman admixture. Sorry if I was unclear.

Trabzon/Gumushane Greeks seem to migrate to the west. I am from Ordu(paternaly), a Turk, as i checked the Ottoman tax records, Ordu-Giresun(coastral) seem to have only around 2.5%(in Total population there) Greeks,the rest is Turkish at the beginning of the 17th century after that Greek population seem to increase with the Migrations from Gümüşhane-inner Trabzon area. I have also seen modern Greek result from Ordu and it was pretty much like Trabzon Greeks. Though Turkish results from Ordu/Giresun also indicated that pre-Turkic Ordu/Giresun Greeks should be Trabzonlike with slight Anatolian Shift. So native components in modern Giresun/Ordu Greeks should be dilluted within migrant Greeks since their numbers was quite low compared to coming Greeks but still quite similar.

bovefex
02-19-2021, 06:35 PM
EDIT: Nevermind.

Johnny ola
02-19-2021, 06:41 PM
Trabzon/Gumushane Greeks seem to migrate to the west. I am from Ordu(paternaly), a Turk, as i checked the Ottoman tax records, Ordu-Giresun(coastral) seem to have only around 2.5%(in Total population there) Greeks,the rest is Turkish at the beginning of the 17th century after that Greek population seem to increase with the Migrations from Gümüşhane-inner Trabzon area. I have also seen modern Greek result from Ordu and it was pretty much like Trabzon Greeks. Though Turkish results from Ordu/Giresun also indicated that pre-Turkic Ordu/Giresun Greeks should be Trabzonlike with slight Anatolian Shift. So native components in modern Giresun/Ordu Greeks should be dilluted within migrant Greeks since their numbers was quite low compared to coming Greeks but still quite similar.

Gonna test my Ordu grandma next month.I will share her results in here,stay tuned :)

eolien
02-19-2021, 11:04 PM
Turkish northwest does not show caucasian shift.My bad,excuse me.



Target: Turkish_Northwest
Distance: 1.0260% / 0.01026027
47.8 TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA
27.4 KAZ_Karakhanid
15.4 RUS_Catacomb
9.4 Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2

actually turkish northwest labelled samples are from around west/south marmara. This is even confusing for Turks because we have no official geographical designations such as north or north-west.

I would have though that northwest could designate western blacksea region (kastamonu, zonguldak etc). I would simply have called the samples according to official provinces but apparently this information cannot be traced back (see the other thread).

In turkey we have official blacksea region(s) (west, middle, east) , or sometimes the term northern anatolia is used when talking about pure geography such as mountains, forests etc. But this encompasses also the southern part of the mountains.

Johnny ola
02-19-2021, 11:38 PM
actually turkish northwest labelled samples are from around west/south marmara. This is even confusing for Turks because we have no official geographical designations such as north or north-west.

I would have though that northwest could designate western blacksea region (kastamonu, zonguldak etc). I would simply have called the samples according to official provinces but apparently this information cannot be traced back (see the other thread).

In turkey we have official blacksea region(s) (west, middle, east) , or sometimes the term northern anatolia is used when talking about pure geography such as mountains, forests etc. But this encompasses also the southern part of the mountains.

I would categorize anything western from Sinope as Turkish=Northwest.Anything eastern from Sinope more like Northeast Anatolia.But anyway,Turkey is a really big country and we can give many different names to each region/province.How do you call eastern anatolia btw?Some people calling it like Western Armenia,others as Northern Mesopotamia,others Eastern Anatolia and now even Kurds started giving some of their own names.

eolien
02-20-2021, 12:28 AM
I would categorize anything western from Sinope as Turkish=Northwest.Anything eastern from Sinope more like Northeast Anatolia.But anyway,Turkey is a really big country and we can give many different names to each region/province.How do you call eastern anatolia btw?Some people calling it like Western Armenia,others as Northern Mesopotamia,others Eastern Anatolia and now even Kurds started giving some of their own names.

What you think or categorize is not so important. We see all the fights about Macedonia which is a much smaller region.

Turkey first adopted naming of geographic regions in the geographic conference of 1941. Turkey has officially 7 geographic regions, they are used mostly in weather forecasts :) but do not have much influence in administration or daily life. Many people don't know the exact borders of these regions as the geographical regional borders often do not overlap with administrative borders.

https://www.gelgez.net/turkiye-cografi-bolgelere-ne-zaman-ve-neden-ayrildi-bolge-ve-bolumler/

Eastern Anatolia is called Doğu Anadolu. As i indicated above, before 1941 there was no concept of geographical regions and only in 1941 Anatolia was adapted as the name for the whole Asiatic part of Turkey.

Johnny ola
02-20-2021, 12:42 AM
What you think or categorize is not so important. We see all the fights about Macedonia which is a much smaller region.

Turkey first adopted naming of geographic regions in the geographic conference of 1941. Turkey has officially 7 geographic regions, they are used mostly in weather forecasts :) but do not have much influence in administration or daily life. Many people don't know the exact borders of these regions as the geographical regional borders often do not overlap with administrative borders.

https://www.gelgez.net/turkiye-cografi-bolgelere-ne-zaman-ve-neden-ayrildi-bolge-ve-bolumler/

Eastern Anatolia is called Doğu Anadolu. As i indicated above, before 1941 there was no concept of geographical regions and only in 1941 Anatolia was adapted as the name for the whole Asiatic part of Turkey.

We can give the Villayet names that Ottomans used for every part of the Ottoman Empire xD. :lol:

alexfritz
02-20-2021, 01:07 AM
Can you explain why there is such overlap with disparate Mizrahhi Jewish populations ; as opposed to the Western Jews (AJ, SyJ, SJ etc), whose Hellenic admixture is so much more obvious? I ask bercause Mizrahh-descended Jewish populations all descend from Bavli (Babylonian/Iraqi) Jewry, who lived under Parthia, not Rome/Byzantium, and did not live among Greeks like Western Jews in, for example, Israel Egypt,Anatolia, Syria, North Africa, Roman Spain, etc.

babylonian jews did indeed settle (https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/phrygia) in anatolia
Antiochus III (the Great) transported 2,000 Jewish families from Mesopotamia and Babylonia to "the fortresses and most important places" of Phrygia and Lydia

Antiochos epistola Zeuxis (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeuxis_(general))
https://i.ibb.co/txGmrCL/z-Epist-Antiochus-Zeuxis.png

relooking the roman paper
samples like R67, R68 or R1551 could well have been FigS15 babylonian jews and since the entire cline extends to them FigS18 babylonian jews (via their anatolia) could have been far more prominent than the levantine jews

Johnny ola
02-20-2021, 01:40 AM
babylonian jews did indeed settle (https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/phrygia) in anatolia
Antiochus III (the Great) transported 2,000 Jewish families from Mesopotamia and Babylonia to "the fortresses and most important places" of Phrygia and Lydia

Antiochos epistola Zeuxis (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeuxis_(general))
https://i.ibb.co/txGmrCL/z-Epist-Antiochus-Zeuxis.png

relooking the roman paper
samples like R67, R68 or R1551 could well have been FigS15 babylonian jews and since the entire cline extends to them FigS18 babylonian jews (via their anatolia) could have been far more prominent than the levantine jews

Thank you Alex.Do you know if they also settled in the area of Pontus/Northeast Anatolia?

alexfritz
02-20-2021, 02:08 AM
Thank you Alex.Do you know if they also settled in the area of Pontus/Northeast Anatolia?

am not aware of it but sources can def. exist on it
yet since pontus was always its own kingdom an outside influx whole settlements should be more limited (i guess)

Bruhman
02-23-2021, 11:29 AM
What about Greek_Kos?

Johnny ola
02-23-2021, 11:36 AM
What about Greek_Kos?

What about it?

Johnny ola
03-04-2021, 12:44 AM
I have the results of a Western Pontic Greek.For those who are interested to check.Also i would like to know the opinion of some of the Turkish members.He is mostly from Ordu and Amasya.I think he has some 'Turkoman-Central Asian' admixture on his autosomal.

K13 Updated


Distance to: western Pontus
5.14878626 Greek_Cappadocian
8.51528038 Greek_Trabzon
9.35092509 Turkish_mixed
9.60030729 Turk_Turkey_average
9.74621978 Armenian_West
9.87576832 Turk_South_East
9.95125620 Turk_Central_East
10.39933171 Greek_Caucasus
10.52790577 Turk_East
10.57400586 Armenian
11.41210761 Assyrian_West
11.44872482 Turk_Central_Black_Sea
11.61502045 Nusayri
11.64045532 Assyrian_North
11.68668901 Georgian_Jewish
11.77466348 Armenian_East
11.78606805 Turk_Central_West
11.82074025 Assyrian_South
11.96170556 Turk_Anatolia
12.05159740 Mountain_Jew_Chechnya
12.20399934 Turk_East_Black_Sea
12.98211077 Greek_Chios
13.20445379 Turk_South
13.40946308 Turkmen_Iraq
13.49864067 Lebanese_Muslim

K15 Updated

Distance to: western Pontus
8.28802148 Greek_Trabzon
8.36285238 Armenian_West
9.51539279 Turkish_Kayseri
10.21888448 Turkish_Anatolia
10.23647889 Armenian_East
11.29936724 Turkish_Adana
11.30847912 Georgian_Jew
11.69202292 Assyrian
12.05181729 Turkish_East
13.58482609 Turkish_Trabzon
14.01079941 Azerbaijani
14.50578850 Azerbaijani_Iran
14.77174330 Lebanese_Muslim
15.55286147 Turkish_Aydin
16.53344792 Kurd
16.68047062 Georgian_Laz
16.87968305 Iranian_Lur
17.39182854 Kurdish_Jew
17.87111916 Syrian
17.87434754 Cypriot
18.11578041 Greek_Crete
18.39713293 Turk_Meskhetian
19.23029641 Lebanese_Christian
19.29970725 Turkish_Balikesir
19.77166913 Iranian_Persian


K13 Eurogenes:

# Population Percent
1 East_Med 34.49
2 West_Asian 30.78
3 West_Med 16.57
4 Baltic 6.51
5 North_Atlantic 6.45
6 Red_Sea 4.06
7 Siberian 1.13

Any thoughts?

Cazu
03-05-2021, 05:01 AM
I checkes other calculators i think his Eastern Eurasian is quite low snd could be just noise. However his autosomal results looks like Central-West Anatolian Greek unlike other Ordu Greek i’ve seen that basically looks like Trabzon Greeks. So i guess we can say Ordu Greeks were heteregonious due to migrations from different parts of the country?

Onur Dincer
03-05-2021, 06:32 AM
I have the results of a Western Pontic Greek.For those who are interested to check.Also i would like to know the opinion of some of the Turkish members.He is mostly from Ordu and Amasya.I think he has some 'Turkoman-Central Asian' admixture on his autosomal.

K13 Updated


Distance to: western Pontus
5.14878626 Greek_Cappadocian
8.51528038 Greek_Trabzon
9.35092509 Turkish_mixed
9.60030729 Turk_Turkey_average
9.74621978 Armenian_West
9.87576832 Turk_South_East
9.95125620 Turk_Central_East
10.39933171 Greek_Caucasus
10.52790577 Turk_East
10.57400586 Armenian
11.41210761 Assyrian_West
11.44872482 Turk_Central_Black_Sea
11.61502045 Nusayri
11.64045532 Assyrian_North
11.68668901 Georgian_Jewish
11.77466348 Armenian_East
11.78606805 Turk_Central_West
11.82074025 Assyrian_South
11.96170556 Turk_Anatolia
12.05159740 Mountain_Jew_Chechnya
12.20399934 Turk_East_Black_Sea
12.98211077 Greek_Chios
13.20445379 Turk_South
13.40946308 Turkmen_Iraq
13.49864067 Lebanese_Muslim

K15 Updated

Distance to: western Pontus
8.28802148 Greek_Trabzon
8.36285238 Armenian_West
9.51539279 Turkish_Kayseri
10.21888448 Turkish_Anatolia
10.23647889 Armenian_East
11.29936724 Turkish_Adana
11.30847912 Georgian_Jew
11.69202292 Assyrian
12.05181729 Turkish_East
13.58482609 Turkish_Trabzon
14.01079941 Azerbaijani
14.50578850 Azerbaijani_Iran
14.77174330 Lebanese_Muslim
15.55286147 Turkish_Aydin
16.53344792 Kurd
16.68047062 Georgian_Laz
16.87968305 Iranian_Lur
17.39182854 Kurdish_Jew
17.87111916 Syrian
17.87434754 Cypriot
18.11578041 Greek_Crete
18.39713293 Turk_Meskhetian
19.23029641 Lebanese_Christian
19.29970725 Turkish_Balikesir
19.77166913 Iranian_Persian


K13 Eurogenes:

# Population Percent
1 East_Med 34.49
2 West_Asian 30.78
3 West_Med 16.57
4 Baltic 6.51
5 North_Atlantic 6.45
6 Red_Sea 4.06
7 Siberian 1.13

Any thoughts?

He does not have East Eurasian beyond noise and thus any detectable Turkic admixture based on his various calculator results. For instance, here are his MDLP K16 results:

Amerindian -
Ancestor -
Steppe 13.2 Pct
Indian 2.55 Pct
Arctic 0.06 Pct
Australian -
Caucasian 54.36 Pct
EastAfrican -
NorthEastEuropean 3.9 Pct
NearEast 6.71 Pct
Neolithic 17.79 Pct
NorthAfrican 1.06 Pct
Oceanic -
Siberian 0.37 Pct
SouthEastAsian -
Subsaharian -

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Armenian (Armenia) 6.27
2 Armenian (Lebanon) 6.74
3 Turk (Kayseri) 6.88
4 Armenian (Erzrum) 7.01
5 Armenian (Vanatur_Hrazdan) 7.6
6 Armenian (Vardnis) 8.06
7 Armenian (Yerevan) 8.32
8 Georgian (Laz) 8.35
9 Armenian (Chambarak) 8.51
10 Turk (Adana) 8.83
11 Georgian_Abkhazia (Abkhazia) 8.88
12 Armenian (Yegvard) 8.95
13 Armenian (Dprabak) 8.95
14 Greek (Azov) 8.99
15 Cypriot (Cyprus) 9.02
16 Assyrian (Armenia) 9.06
17 Armenian (Martuni) 9.08
18 Adjar (Adjaria) 9.27
19 Armenian (Armenia) 9.4
20 Turk (Istanbul) 9.57

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 77.2% Armenian (Armenia) + 22.8% Italian (Bergamo) @ 2.49
2 69.6% Armenian (Armenia) + 30.4% Greek (Thessaloniki) @ 2.67
3 76.8% Armenian (Armenia) + 23.2% Italian (Bergamo) @ 2.84
4 56.7% Armenian (Armenia) + 43.3% Greek (Greece) @ 2.86
5 72.5% Armenian (Armenia) + 27.5% Kosovar (Kosovo) @ 2.94
6 79.8% Armenian (Armenia) + 20.2% Spanish (Baleares) @ 2.96
7 84.8% Armenian (Armenia) + 15.2% French (SouthFrance) @ 2.98
8 82.8% Armenian (Armenia) + 17.2% Spanish (Aragon) @ 2.98
9 69.2% Armenian (Armenia) + 30.8% Greek (Thessaloniki) @ 3.03
10 69.3% Armenian (Armenia) + 30.7% Albanian (Albania) @ 3.03
11 68.7% Armenian (Armenia) + 31.3% Greek (Greece) @ 3.04
12 80.3% Armenian (Armenia) + 19.7% Spanish (Spain) @ 3.12
13 76.4% Armenian (Armenia) + 23.6% Corsican (Corsica) @ 3.13
14 72% Armenian (Armenia) + 28% Kosovar (Kosovo) @ 3.15
15 60.9% Georgian (Laz) + 39.1% Greek (Greece) @ 3.17
16 61.8% Turk (Trabzon) + 38.2% Italian (Abruzzo) @ 3.18
17 86.5% Armenian (Armenia) + 13.5% Basque (France) @ 3.2
18 81.5% Armenian (Armenia) + 18.5% French (France) @ 3.24
19 75.9% Armenian (Armenia) + 24.1% Corsican (Corsica) @ 3.24
20 67.1% Armenian (Armenia) + 32.9% Sicilian (Sicily) @ 3.34

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 Armenian_Armenia @ 7.131273
2 Turk_Kayseri @ 7.407294
3 Armenian_Lebanon @ 7.465335
4 Armenian_Erzrum @ 7.926895
5 Armenian_Vanatur_Hrazdan @ 8.528985
6 Armenian_Vardnis @ 8.819259
7 Georgian_Laz @ 9.273756
8 Armenian_Yerevan @ 9.339188
9 Armenian_Chambarak @ 9.640309
10 Turk_Adana @ 9.876884
11 Georgian_Abkhazia_Abkhazia @ 9.929802
12 Assyrian_Armenia @ 10.001896
13 Cypriot_Cyprus @ 10.012949
14 Armenian_Yegvard @ 10.110293
15 Armenian_Dprabak @ 10.117280
16 Greek_Azov @ 10.189158
17 Armenian_Martuni @ 10.238786
18 Adjar_Adjaria @ 10.244320
19 Armenian_Armenia @ 10.360682
20 Turk_Istanbul @ 10.731075

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% Armenian_Armenia +50% Greek_Greece @ 3.158719


Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% Armenian_Armenia +25% Italian_Bergamo +25% Turk_Trabzon @ 1.901354


Using 4 populations approximation:
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ +++++++++++++++++++
1 Armenian_Armenia + Armenian_Armenia + Italian_Bergamo + Turk_Trabzon @ 1.901354
2 Armenian_Armenia + Armenian_Armenia + Italian_Tuscany + Turk_Trabzon @ 1.953296
3 Armenian_Armenia + Armenian_Armenia + Corsican_Corsica + Turk_Trabzon @ 2.111721
4 Armenian_Armenia + Cypriot_Cyprus + Georgian_Tbilisi + Greek_Thessaloniki @ 2.275078
5 Armenian_Armenia + Cypriot_Cyprus + Georgian_Tbilisi + Italian_Tuscany @ 2.307928
6 Albanian_Albania + Armenian_Armenia + Cypriot_Cyprus + Georgian_Tbilisi @ 2.335768
7 Armenian_Armenia + Armenian_Armenia + Italian_Bergamo + Turk_Trabzon @ 2.365024
8 Armenian_Armenia + Georgian_Laz + Italian_Tuscany + Turk_Trabzon @ 2.366838
9 Armenian_Armenia + Cypriot_Cyprus + Georgian_Tbilisi + Greek_Greece @ 2.368900
10 Armenian_Armenia + Armenian_Armenia + Italian_NorthIitaly + Turk_Trabzon @ 2.375995
11 Armenian_Armenia + Cypriot_Cyprus + Georgian_Megrelia + Greek_Athens @ 2.417208
12 Armenian_Armenia + Armenian_Armenia + Italian_Tuscany + Turk_Trabzon @ 2.421828
13 Armenian_Vardnis + Armenian_Armenia + Italian_Tuscany + Turk_Trabzon @ 2.428800
14 Armenian_Armenia + Cypriot_Cyprus + Georgian_Tbilisi + Kosovar_Kosovo @ 2.429213
15 Armenian_Armenia + Cypriot_Cyprus + Georgian_Tbilisi + Italian_Tuscany @ 2.459243
16 Armenian_Armenia + Cypriot_Cyprus + Georgian_Tbilisi + Greek_Greece @ 2.487715
17 Armenian_Armenia + Armenian_Armenia + Corsican_Corsica + Turk_Trabzon @ 2.496019
18 Armenian_Armenia + Jew_Georgia + Italian_Bergamo + Turk_Trabzon @ 2.544198
19 Armenian_Armenia + Cypriot_Cyprus + Georgian_Tbilisi + Greek_Thessaloniki @ 2.555608
20 Cypriot_Cyprus + Georgian_Megrelia + Italian_Abruzzo + Turk_Trabzon @ 2.566007

He is genetically between Cappadocian Greeks and Eastern Pontic Greeks. In certain GEDmatch calculators Anatolian Turks show up as the first population in single population distances to Greek individuals with a genetics between the Cappadocian Greek and East Pontic Greek averages despite those Greek individuals showing no East Eurasian and thus Turkic mix. You can see that in Cappadocian Greeks with more than average steppe and/or less than than average Anatolia N too for instance. This is because of the similar percentages with Anatolian Turks in West Eurasian components, nothing to do with any Turkic mix. Do not forget that Anatolian Turks themselves are largely of Anatolian Greek ancestry.

Johnny ola
03-05-2021, 12:40 PM
I have an another Ordu Greek results. I will post them thought.

Johnny ola
03-05-2021, 12:59 PM
Τhese results are fully Ordu.He is waiting for G25.



Ηis K13 eurogenes.

# Population Percent
1 East_Med 38.54
2 West_Asian 34.86
3 West_Med 14.50
4 Red_Sea 6.34
5 North_Atlantic 2.93
6 South_Asian 2.26


Using 1 population approximation:
1 Assyrian @ 5.018348
2 Armenian @ 5.989465
3 Georgian_Jewish @ 6.179441
4 Kurdish_Jewish @ 8.547978
5 Iranian_Jewish @ 9.853659
6 Lebanese_Muslim @ 13.053451
7 Turkish @ 13.084300
8 Azeri @ 14.969471
9 Kurdish @ 14.991577
10 Syrian @ 15.700521
11 Cyprian @ 16.386168
12 Iranian @ 16.968300
13 Lebanese_Christian @ 17.811255
14 Lebanese_Druze @ 17.877888
15 Samaritan @ 19.715050
16 Jordanian @ 20.447420
17 Palestinian @ 22.249363
18 Georgian @ 25.251038
19 Tunisian_Jewish @ 25.584490
20 Sephardic_Jewish @ 26.144701


K13 updated

Distance to: Ordu
3.55859523 Armenian_West
4.48334696 Assyrian_West
4.66681905 Assyrian_North
4.97546983 Assyrian_South
5.08265679 Greek_Trabzon
5.26993359 Mountain_Jew_Chechnya
5.53280218 Greek_Caucasus
5.58381590 Armenian
6.18741465 Georgian_Jewish
7.73289726 Armenian_East
8.25084238 Mandean
8.54746161 Kurdish_Jewish
8.96732959 Turk_East_Black_Sea
9.19988043 Iraqi_Jew
10.21181668 Greek_Cappadocian
11.01366878 Turkmen_Iraq
11.20457050 Turk_South_East
11.52308119 Turk_East
11.72002986 Nusayri
12.70647079 Iraqi_Baghdad
13.03417048 Laz
13.05470413 Lebanese_Muslim
13.08857517 Turkish_mixed
13.10882527 Kurd_Kurmanji_Turkey
13.46212836 Turk_Turkey_average


Target: pavlos
Distance: 2.0552% / 2.05518117 | ADC: 0.5x RC
53.8 Assyrian_West
46.2 Greek_Trabzon

k15 updated

5.43677294 Armenian_West
6.41611253 Greek_Trabzon
7.30693506 Armenian_East
7.44020833 Georgian_Jew
8.03652910 Assyrian
9.65379200 Turkish_East
10.02673925 Turkish_Trabzon
11.93400603 Turkish_Kayseri
12.47576050 Turkish_Anatolia
13.69990876 Kurd
13.79152276 Kurdish_Jew
13.84032153 Azerbaijani
13.92243154 Georgian_Laz
14.25611097 Iranian_Lur
14.36706999 Turkish_Adana
14.75351145 Azerbaijani_Iran
14.87923385 Lebanese_Muslim
16.67532608 Turk_Meskhetian
16.69336695 Iranian_Jew
17.49756840 Iranian_Mazandarani
18.20973641 Lebanese_Christian
18.35799281 Syrian
18.46898211 Iranian_Persian
19.87202808 Cypriot
21.42172029 Turkish_Aydin


K15

Target: pavlos
Distance: 4.1288% / 4.12876024 | ADC: 0.5x RC
53.1 Assyrian
31.5 Turkish_Trabzon
8.8 Greek_Trabzon
6.6 Turkish_East

Distance: 2.6071% / 2.60707331 | ADC: 0.5x RC
76.9 Turkish_Trabzon
15.3 Iraqi_Jew
7.8 Assyrian