PDA

View Full Version : How West Eurasian are different Uralic populations in Europe?



davit
01-15-2021, 02:26 AM
And did those lands have ANE/WSHG/EHG substrates before Uralics (guessing close to fully ENA populations) moved in?

al.Krivich
08-06-2021, 10:14 PM
From what I understand the TRVE Uralics like Khanti, Mansi, Nenets are not West Eurasian what so ever, their most "West Eurasian" component comes from EHG admix that was present in Siberia since forever

The wannabe Uralics like Mari, Udmurts, Komi are assimilated Corded Ware and Combed Ware people with minor TRVE Uralic admixture

If we're talking about Moksha/Erzya/Karelians/Finns/Estonians/Hungarians then they're just typical Europeans of Corded Ware, Combed Ware, Bell Beaker descent with pretty much nothing eastern

J-Live
08-06-2021, 10:29 PM
From what I understand the TRVE Uralics like Khanti, Mansi, Nenets are not West Eurasian what so ever, their most "West Eurasian" component comes from EHG admix that was present in Siberia since forever

The wannabe Uralics like Mari, Udmurts, Komi are assimilated Corded Ware and Combed Ware people with minor TRVE Uralic admixture

If we're talking about Moksha/Erzya/Karelians/Finns/Estonians/Hungarians then they're just typical Europeans of Corded Ware, Combed Ware, Bell Beaker descent with pretty much nothing eastern

So Finns/Estonians and the like have absolutely no Siberian or East Asian ancestry at all?

vasil
08-06-2021, 10:53 PM
So Finns/Estonians and the like have absolutely no Siberian or East Asian ancestry at all?

Estonians have almost no Siberian, Finns have it but actually less than Northern Russians it does peak in the Saami though.

al.Krivich
08-07-2021, 12:37 AM
So Finns/Estonians and the like have absolutely no Siberian or East Asian ancestry at all?

Almost none pretty much.

Tsakhur
08-28-2021, 06:17 AM
From what I understand the TRVE Uralics like Khanti, Mansi, Nenets are not West Eurasian what so ever, their most "West Eurasian" component comes from EHG admix that was present in Siberia since forever

The wannabe Uralics like Mari, Udmurts, Komi are assimilated Corded Ware and Combed Ware people with minor TRVE Uralic admixture

If we're talking about Moksha/Erzya/Karelians/Finns/Estonians/Hungarians then they're just typical Europeans of Corded Ware, Combed Ware, Bell Beaker descent with pretty much nothing eastern

Khanty, Mansi, Nenets actually have it quite a lot of West Eurasian ancestry. EHG is a West Eurasian component as well. There have been West Eurasians in Siberia since ancient times. Khanty, Mansi are around 47-49% West Eurasian while Nenets are approx 29% West Eurasian. Krasnoyarsk_BA is an East Eurasian component closely related to modern day Nganassans.

Target: Khanty
Distance: 6.1798% / 0.06179766
53.4 RUS_Krasnoyarsk_BA
41.0 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
3.6 Baltic_EST_BA
2.0 WHG



Target: Mansi
Distance: 6.0422% / 0.06042214
51.4 RUS_Krasnoyarsk_BA
38.8 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
6.6 Baltic_EST_BA
2.6 WHG
0.6 TUR_Barcin_N


Target: Nenets
Distance: 4.4318% / 0.04431806
50.6 RUS_Krasnoyarsk_BA
25.8 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
20.4 Nganassan
1.8 WHG
0.6 Baltic_EST_BA
0.4 FIN_Levanluhta_IA_o
0.4 TUR_Barcin_N

Also Maris, Udmurts, Komis are not wannabe Uralics. They would cluster with Balts, Slavs, and Scandinavians if they are are assimilated Corded Ware and Combed Ware people with minor TRVE Uralic admixture. In fact, they have very significant amounts of Uralic (East Eurasian) ancestry. Udmurts are around 25-26% East Asian, Mari are approx 32-33% East Eurasian and Komi are 16-17% East Asian on average. Maitan_Alakul is a Steppe pop closely related to Sintashta_MLBA.

Target: Udmurt
Distance: 2.7785% / 0.02778518
32.6 KAZ_Maitan_MLBA_Alakul
25.2 RUS_Krasnoyarsk_BA
21.4 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
19.2 Baltic_LTU_BA
0.8 Baltic_EST_BA
0.4 Levant_PPNB
0.4 TUR_Barcin_N

Target: Mari
Distance: 8.8936% / 0.08893626
40.6 Baltic_LTU_BA
32.6 RUS_Krasnoyarsk_BA
24.0 KAZ_Maitan_MLBA_Alakul
2.2 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
0.6 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N

Target: Komi
Distance: 1.5613% / 0.01561284
32.0 KAZ_Maitan_MLBA_Alakul
22.6 Baltic_EST_BA
18.8 Baltic_LTU_BA
17.0 RUS_Krasnoyarsk_BA
6.0 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
3.6 TUR_Barcin_N

Also adding Bolshoy_Oleni_Ostrov_o and Uyelgi which are ancient Uralic populations (keep in mind they already have West Eurasian admixture) along with Krasnoyarsk_BA and you can see the amount of Uralic ancestry in these groups.
Also Udmurt, Mari, Komi seem to have some Iranian/Caucasus-related affinity as well likely from Scythian/Sarmatian or Turkic tribes roaming the Urals, which is something that Corded Ware and Combed Ware descended Europeans generally lacked. RUS_Alan_MA/Dzharkutan2_BA = resemble modern North Caucasians, Sappali_Tepe = resemble modern Iranians

Target: Khanty
Distance: 4.4647% / 0.04464659
42.6 RUS_Bolshoy_Oleni_Ostrov_o
25.8 Uyelgi
18.6 RUS_Krasnoyarsk_BA
12.6 KAZ_Maitan_MLBA_Alakul
0.4 UZB_Sappali_Tepe_BA_o

Target: Mansi
Distance: 4.1834% / 0.04183355
44.0 RUS_Bolshoy_Oleni_Ostrov_o
27.0 Uyelgi
15.0 RUS_Krasnoyarsk_BA
11.4 KAZ_Maitan_MLBA_Alakul
2.6 Levant_PPNB

Target: Nenets
Distance: 4.2736% / 0.04273600
56.8 RUS_Krasnoyarsk_BA
16.2 Uyelgi
12.4 RUS_Bolshoy_Oleni_Ostrov_o
8.0 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
6.6 FIN_Levanluhta_IA_o


Target: Udmurt
Distance: 2.2967% / 0.02296709
37.8 KAZ_Maitan_MLBA_Alakul
14.4 Uyelgi
12.4 RUS_Krasnoyarsk_BA
11.4 RUS_Bolshoy_Oleni_Ostrov_o
10.6 Baltic_LTU_BA
5.6 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
4.2 RUS_Alan_MA
3.2 Baltic_EST_BA
0.2 TUR_Barcin_N
0.2 UZB_Sappali_Tepe_BA_o

Target: Mari
Distance: 8.2352% / 0.08235223
34.0 Uyelgi
32.6 Baltic_LTU_BA
16.4 RUS_Krasnoyarsk_BA
13.6 KAZ_Maitan_MLBA_Alakul
2.4 Levant_PPNB
0.8 Han
0.2 MAR_Taforalt

Target: Komi
Distance: 1.5077% / 0.01507663
33.2 KAZ_Maitan_MLBA_Alakul
23.2 Baltic_EST_BA
16.6 Baltic_LTU_BA
14.4 RUS_Krasnoyarsk_BA
4.4 Uyelgi
3.8 TUR_Barcin_N
3.4 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
1.0 RUS_Bolshoy_Oleni_Ostrov_o


Removing Krasnoyarsk_BA with Uyelgi and Bolshoy Ostrov to see the actual amount of Uralic genes:

Target: Khanty
Distance: 5.0651% / 0.05065091
71.0 RUS_Bolshoy_Oleni_Ostrov_o
24.8 Uyelgi
2.0 RUS_Alan_MA
1.2 MNG_North_N
1.0 MAR_Taforalt

Target: Mansi
Distance: 4.7348% / 0.04734837
68.4 RUS_Bolshoy_Oleni_Ostrov_o
25.8 Uyelgi
4.2 RUS_Alan_MA
1.6 MAR_Taforalt

Target: Nenets
Distance: 9.1206% / 0.09120610
60.4 RUS_Bolshoy_Oleni_Ostrov_o
26.8 MNG_North_N
12.8 Uyelgi


Target: Udmurt
Distance: 2.4874% / 0.02487387
32.2 RUS_Bolshoy_Oleni_Ostrov_o
30.2 KAZ_Maitan_MLBA_Alakul
15.2 Uyelgi
9.2 Baltic_LTU_BA
8.4 RUS_Alan_MA
2.6 TUR_Barcin_N
2.2 Baltic_EST_BA

Target: Mari
Distance: 8.4189% / 0.08418853
37.6 Uyelgi
27.6 Baltic_LTU_BA
24.4 RUS_Bolshoy_Oleni_Ostrov_o
5.8 TUR_Barcin_N
2.8 Levant_PPNB
1.4 Han
0.4 MAR_Taforalt

Target: Komi
Distance: 1.9040% / 0.01904045
23.8 RUS_Bolshoy_Oleni_Ostrov_o
22.6 KAZ_Maitan_MLBA_Alakul
20.8 Baltic_EST_BA
16.4 Baltic_LTU_BA
7.8 TUR_Barcin_N
5.8 Uyelgi
2.2 UZB_Dzharkutan2_BA
0.6 MNG_North_N

al.Krivich
08-31-2021, 04:14 PM
Khanty, Mansi, Nenets actually have it quite a lot of West Eurasian ancestry. EHG is a West Eurasian component as well. There have been West Eurasians in Siberia since ancient times. Khanty, Mansi are around 47-49% West Eurasian while Nenets are approx 29% West Eurasian. Krasnoyarsk_BA is an East Eurasian component closely related to modern day Nganassans.

Target: Khanty
Distance: 6.1798% / 0.06179766
53.4 RUS_Krasnoyarsk_BA
41.0 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
3.6 Baltic_EST_BA
2.0 WHG



Target: Mansi
Distance: 6.0422% / 0.06042214
51.4 RUS_Krasnoyarsk_BA
38.8 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
6.6 Baltic_EST_BA
2.6 WHG
0.6 TUR_Barcin_N


Target: Nenets
Distance: 4.4318% / 0.04431806
50.6 RUS_Krasnoyarsk_BA
25.8 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
20.4 Nganassan
1.8 WHG
0.6 Baltic_EST_BA
0.4 FIN_Levanluhta_IA_o
0.4 TUR_Barcin_N

Also Maris, Udmurts, Komis are not wannabe Uralics. They would cluster with Balts, Slavs, and Scandinavians if they are are assimilated Corded Ware and Combed Ware people with minor TRVE Uralic admixture. In fact, they have very significant amounts of Uralic (East Eurasian) ancestry. Udmurts are around 25-26% East Asian, Mari are approx 32-33% East Eurasian and Komi are 16-17% East Asian on average. Maitan_Alakul is a Steppe pop closely related to Sintashta_MLBA.

Target: Udmurt
Distance: 2.7785% / 0.02778518
32.6 KAZ_Maitan_MLBA_Alakul
25.2 RUS_Krasnoyarsk_BA
21.4 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
19.2 Baltic_LTU_BA
0.8 Baltic_EST_BA
0.4 Levant_PPNB
0.4 TUR_Barcin_N

Target: Mari
Distance: 8.8936% / 0.08893626
40.6 Baltic_LTU_BA
32.6 RUS_Krasnoyarsk_BA
24.0 KAZ_Maitan_MLBA_Alakul
2.2 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
0.6 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N

Target: Komi
Distance: 1.5613% / 0.01561284
32.0 KAZ_Maitan_MLBA_Alakul
22.6 Baltic_EST_BA
18.8 Baltic_LTU_BA
17.0 RUS_Krasnoyarsk_BA
6.0 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
3.6 TUR_Barcin_N

Also adding Bolshoy_Oleni_Ostrov_o and Uyelgi which are ancient Uralic populations (keep in mind they already have West Eurasian admixture) along with Krasnoyarsk_BA and you can see the amount of Uralic ancestry in these groups.
Also Udmurt, Mari, Komi seem to have some Iranian/Caucasus-related affinity as well likely from Scythian/Sarmatian or Turkic tribes roaming the Urals, which is something that Corded Ware and Combed Ware descended Europeans generally lacked. RUS_Alan_MA/Dzharkutan2_BA = resemble modern North Caucasians, Sappali_Tepe = resemble modern Iranians

Target: Khanty
Distance: 4.4647% / 0.04464659
42.6 RUS_Bolshoy_Oleni_Ostrov_o
25.8 Uyelgi
18.6 RUS_Krasnoyarsk_BA
12.6 KAZ_Maitan_MLBA_Alakul
0.4 UZB_Sappali_Tepe_BA_o

Target: Mansi
Distance: 4.1834% / 0.04183355
44.0 RUS_Bolshoy_Oleni_Ostrov_o
27.0 Uyelgi
15.0 RUS_Krasnoyarsk_BA
11.4 KAZ_Maitan_MLBA_Alakul
2.6 Levant_PPNB

Target: Nenets
Distance: 4.2736% / 0.04273600
56.8 RUS_Krasnoyarsk_BA
16.2 Uyelgi
12.4 RUS_Bolshoy_Oleni_Ostrov_o
8.0 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
6.6 FIN_Levanluhta_IA_o


Target: Udmurt
Distance: 2.2967% / 0.02296709
37.8 KAZ_Maitan_MLBA_Alakul
14.4 Uyelgi
12.4 RUS_Krasnoyarsk_BA
11.4 RUS_Bolshoy_Oleni_Ostrov_o
10.6 Baltic_LTU_BA
5.6 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
4.2 RUS_Alan_MA
3.2 Baltic_EST_BA
0.2 TUR_Barcin_N
0.2 UZB_Sappali_Tepe_BA_o

Target: Mari
Distance: 8.2352% / 0.08235223
34.0 Uyelgi
32.6 Baltic_LTU_BA
16.4 RUS_Krasnoyarsk_BA
13.6 KAZ_Maitan_MLBA_Alakul
2.4 Levant_PPNB
0.8 Han
0.2 MAR_Taforalt

Target: Komi
Distance: 1.5077% / 0.01507663
33.2 KAZ_Maitan_MLBA_Alakul
23.2 Baltic_EST_BA
16.6 Baltic_LTU_BA
14.4 RUS_Krasnoyarsk_BA
4.4 Uyelgi
3.8 TUR_Barcin_N
3.4 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
1.0 RUS_Bolshoy_Oleni_Ostrov_o


Removing Krasnoyarsk_BA with Uyelgi and Bolshoy Ostrov to see the actual amount of Uralic genes:

Target: Khanty
Distance: 5.0651% / 0.05065091
71.0 RUS_Bolshoy_Oleni_Ostrov_o
24.8 Uyelgi
2.0 RUS_Alan_MA
1.2 MNG_North_N
1.0 MAR_Taforalt

Target: Mansi
Distance: 4.7348% / 0.04734837
68.4 RUS_Bolshoy_Oleni_Ostrov_o
25.8 Uyelgi
4.2 RUS_Alan_MA
1.6 MAR_Taforalt

Target: Nenets
Distance: 9.1206% / 0.09120610
60.4 RUS_Bolshoy_Oleni_Ostrov_o
26.8 MNG_North_N
12.8 Uyelgi


Target: Udmurt
Distance: 2.4874% / 0.02487387
32.2 RUS_Bolshoy_Oleni_Ostrov_o
30.2 KAZ_Maitan_MLBA_Alakul
15.2 Uyelgi
9.2 Baltic_LTU_BA
8.4 RUS_Alan_MA
2.6 TUR_Barcin_N
2.2 Baltic_EST_BA

Target: Mari
Distance: 8.4189% / 0.08418853
37.6 Uyelgi
27.6 Baltic_LTU_BA
24.4 RUS_Bolshoy_Oleni_Ostrov_o
5.8 TUR_Barcin_N
2.8 Levant_PPNB
1.4 Han
0.4 MAR_Taforalt

Target: Komi
Distance: 1.9040% / 0.01904045
23.8 RUS_Bolshoy_Oleni_Ostrov_o
22.6 KAZ_Maitan_MLBA_Alakul
20.8 Baltic_EST_BA
16.4 Baltic_LTU_BA
7.8 TUR_Barcin_N
5.8 Uyelgi
2.2 UZB_Dzharkutan2_BA
0.6 MNG_North_N

if Oleni Ostrov is proxy for EHG, then we can conclude based on this that Khants are something like 71% EHG. This would make them very west eurasian genetically, however their appearance is rather east eurasian.

Tsakhur
09-23-2021, 07:34 PM
if Oleni Ostrov is proxy for EHG, then we can conclude based on this that Khants are something like 71% EHG. This would make them very west eurasian genetically, however their appearance is rather east eurasian.

Sorry for very late reply.

Oleni_Ostrov and Oleni_Ostrov_o are not proxies for EHG as they also have very high levels of East Eurasian of mainly Nganasan/Krasnoyarsk_BA (kra001)-related ancestry. If you want a proxy for EHG, you have many options from Samara_HG, Karelia_HG, Sidelkino_HG, Volga_Kama_EN, Khvalynsk_EN and Veretye_Meso.

Target: RUS_Bolshoy_Oleni_Ostrov
Distance: 2.3544% / 0.02354423
37.8 RUS_Krasnoyarsk_BA
32.6 RUS_Khvalynsk_En
24.2 RUS_Volga-Kama_N
2.8 WHG
1.4 Han
1.2 MNG_North_N

Target: RUS_Bolshoy_Oleni_Ostrov_o
Distance: 2.6907% / 0.02690695
47.8 RUS_Krasnoyarsk_BA
23.8 RUS_Khvalynsk_En
22.8 RUS_Volga-Kama_N
3.8 Han
1.8 MNG_North_N

Oleni_Ostrov is around 40% ENA/Eastern Non-African (another term for Eastern Eurasian) while Oleni_Ostrov_o is approximately 53% Eastern Eurasian/ENA.

Khanty are not 71% EHG but closer to 44% EHG with the rest of their genome being 51% Eastern Eurasian and 5% EEF/Neolithic Farmer.

Target: Khanty
Distance: 4.7530% / 0.04753042
50.8 RUS_Krasnoyarsk_BA
43.8 RUS_Khvalynsk_En
5.4 TUR_Barcin_N

Nganasankhan
09-23-2021, 09:26 PM
I selected modern samples from 1240K+HO with longitude over -30 and latitude over 30, and with no suffix like .SG or .DG. I excluded Chukchi, Eskimo, Itelmen, Koryak, Nanai, Negidal, Nivh, and Ulchi. Next I merged the samples with samples from Tambets et al. 2018 (https://evolbio.ut.ee/Tambets2018/). I then did an ADMIXTURE run of the samples with two components. The list below shows the percentage of the East Eurasian component for Uralic populations, and also for a few Turkic populations that are probably mixed with Uralics:

3 (2-4) Hungarian
5 (1-8) Tambets_Estonians
5 (3-9) Estonian
8 (6-10) Tambets_Karels
9 (6-12) Tambets_Ingrian
9 (5-13) Tambets_Finns
10 (7-12) Finnish
10 (6-13) Mordovian
11 (7-14) Karelian
12 (11-13) Tambets_Vepsas
12 (11-13) Veps
22 (15-27) Tambets_Saami_Kola
22 (17-27) Tambets_Tatars
26 (16-30) Chuvash
27 (24-29) Besermyan
30 (28-33) Udmurt
31 (26-34) Tambets_Saami_SWE
31 (31-31) Tambets_Maris
35 (7-62) Tambets_Mansi
36 (22-47) Bashkir
54 (52-55) Tatar_Siberian_Zabolotniye
55 (48-59) Mansi
59 (57-64) Tambets_Khanty
68 (39-90) Selkup
79 (73-82) Enets
87 (42-94) Tofalar
88 (81-95) Dolgan
90 (89-90) Todzin
99 (95-100) Nganasan

The Mansi samples by Tambets range from 7% East Eurasian to 62% East Eurasian, so they're only 35% East Eurasian on average. The Bashkir samples from Jeong et al. have a range of 22% to 47%, because the northern Bashkir samples have much lower East Eurasian ancestry than the southern Bashkir samples.

Full results:

0 (0-0) Sardinian
0 (0-1) Basque
0 (0-1) Spanish_North
0 (0-2) Italian_North
1 (0-3) Spanish
1 (1-1) Tambets_Germans
1 (0-2) Italian_South
1 (0-2) Sicilian
1 (0-2) English
1 (0-3) French
1 (0-3) Greek
1 (1-2) Cypriot
2 (1-3) Orcadian
2 (0-3) Icelandic
2 (1-3) Croatian
2 (1-3) Maltese
2 (1-2) Jew_Turkish
2 (1-3) Albanian
2 (1-4) Bulgarian
2 (1-3) Lebanese_Christian
2 (1-3) Scottish
2 (1-4) Czech
2 (0-4) Norwegian
2 (1-3) Jew_Moroccan
2 (0-4) Romanian
2 (1-3) Jew_Libyan
2 (1-4) Jew_Tunisian
2 (1-3) Armenian_Hemsheni
2 (0-4) Armenian
2 (2-2) Tambets_Gagauzes
2 (2-3) Jew_Iraqi
2 (1-4) Druze
2 (0-4) Jew_Ashkenazi
2 (2-2) Tambets_Latvians
2 (1-4) Moldavian
3 (0-8) Georgian
3 (1-4) Gagauz
3 (2-4) Lithuanian
3 (2-4) Hungarian
3 (1-4) BedouinB
3 (1-6) Assyrian
3 (1-5) Ukrainian_North
3 (1-4) Ukrainian
3 (2-5) Jew_Georgian
3 (2-5) Jew_Iranian
4 (4-4) Kabardinian_outlier
4 (2-5) Lebanese_Muslim
4 (4-5) Abazin_outlier
4 (3-6) Belarusian
4 (4-4) Tambets_Swedes
4 (3-6) Palestinian
5 (2-8) Lebanese
5 (1-8) Tambets_Estonians
5 (4-5) Abkhasian
5 (3-9) Estonian
5 (3-8) Jordanian
5 (0-8) Syrian
5 (5-5) Avar_outlier2
5 (5-5) Avar_outlier1
6 (3-8) BedouinA
6 (3-12) Tambets_Poles
6 (5-8) Kubachinian
6 (3-7) Kaitag
6 (5-8) Ezid
6 (4-9) Kurd
7 (4-9) Tabasaran
7 (5-8) Egyptian
7 (6-8) Darginian
7 (6-8) Lezgin
7 (5-8) Libyan
7 (3-13) Russian
7 (4-9) Chechen
7 (6-8) Avar
7 (5-8) Lak
7 (6-8) Tambets_Russians_Central
7 (6-10) Mozabite
8 (6-10) Tunisian
8 (6-10) Tambets_Karels
8 (5-12) Adygei
8 (7-9) Algerian
8 (5-11) Iranian
8 (6-10) Ingushian
8 (6-12) Moroccan
9 (1-19) Turkish
9 (6-12) Tambets_Ingrian
9 (5-13) Tambets_Finns
9 (4-11) Kumyk
10 (7-12) Finnish
10 (8-13) Azeri
10 (6-13) Mordovian
10 (7-13) Ossetian
11 (8-13) Circassian
11 (7-14) Karelian
11 (10-12) Russian_Archangelsk_Krasnoborsky
11 (9-13) Balkar
11 (9-14) Karachai
12 (9-17) Kabardinian
12 (11-13) Tambets_Vepsas
12 (11-13) Veps
12 (10-15) Abazin
14 (12-15) Russian_Archangelsk_Pinezhsky
16 (13-21) Balochi
16 (14-21) Brahui
17 (16-18) Turkish_Balikesir
17 (15-18) Russian_Archangelsk_Leshukonsky
18 (17-21) Tatar_Mishar
19 (18-21) Kalash
21 (17-25) Pathan
22 (15-28) Tajik
22 (15-27) Tambets_Saami_Kola
22 (17-27) Tambets_Tatars
23 (21-25) Tatar_Kazan
26 (26-26) Turkmen_outlier
26 (16-30) Chuvash
27 (24-29) Besermyan
27 (21-36) Nogai_Karachay_Cherkessia
30 (28-33) Udmurt
30 (28-33) Burusho
31 (26-34) Tambets_Saami_SWE
31 (31-31) Tambets_Maris
35 (29-38) Punjabi
35 (7-62) Tambets_Mansi
36 (22-47) Bashkir
36 (10-59) Aleut
37 (32-48) Turkmen
41 (20-56) Uzbek
47 (33-61) Tlingit
50 (42-56) Tatar_Siberian
50 (37-60) Nogai_Stavropol
50 (45-56) Yukagir_Forest
50 (50-50) Tambets_Buryats
54 (52-55) Tatar_Siberian_Zabolotniye
55 (48-59) Mansi
56 (54-58) Nogai_Astrakhan
56 (48-67) Uyghur
56 (53-58) Hazara
57 (50-64) Karakalpak
59 (46-66) Altaian_Chelkan
59 (57-64) Tambets_Khanty
62 (62-62) Khakass_outlier
63 (58-67) Tubalar
64 (63-66) Shor_Mountain
65 (61-70) Kazakh
66 (62-68) Shor_Khakassia
68 (65-70) Kyrgyz_Tajikistan
68 (39-90) Selkup
69 (54-79) Khakass
70 (61-75) Kyrgyz_China
70 (35-98) Even
71 (66-74) Kyrgyz_Kyrgyzstan
71 (65-74) Ket
74 (67-82) Kazakh_China
76 (71-79) Khakass_Kachin
76 (73-80) Altaian
79 (73-82) Enets
83 (81-86) Kalmyk
85 (66-100) Evenk_FarEast
85 (81-89) Tuvinian
86 (84-89) Salar
87 (42-94) Tofalar
88 (83-92) Mongol
88 (86-93) Dongxiang
88 (81-95) Dolgan
88 (79-92) Buryat
89 (85-92) Dungan
90 (89-90) Todzin
91 (85-95) Yakut
91 (86-93) Khamnegan
92 (87-97) Bonan
94 (92-96) Tu
96 (89-100) Yugur
96 (92-100) Yukagir_Tundra
96 (91-100) Evenk_Transbaikal
96 (90-100) Tibetan
96 (95-97) Mongola
97 (94-99) Xibo
98 (96-99) Daur
99 (95-100) Nganasan
99 (95-100) Oroqen
99 (97-100) Hezhen
100 (98-100) Qiang
100 (97-100) Han
100 (100-100) Japanese
100 (100-100) Korean

Tsakhur
09-24-2021, 05:23 PM
I selected modern samples from 1240K+HO with longitude over -30 and latitude over 30, and with no suffix like .SG or .DG. I excluded Chukchi, Eskimo, Itelmen, Koryak, Nanai, Negidal, Nivh, and Ulchi. Next I merged the samples with samples from Tambets et al. 2018 (https://evolbio.ut.ee/Tambets2018/). I then did an ADMIXTURE run of the samples with two components. The list below shows the percentage of the East Eurasian component for Uralic populations, and also for a few Turkic populations that are probably mixed with Uralics:

3 (2-4) Hungarian
5 (1-8) Tambets_Estonians
5 (3-9) Estonian
8 (6-10) Tambets_Karels
9 (6-12) Tambets_Ingrian
9 (5-13) Tambets_Finns
10 (7-12) Finnish
10 (6-13) Mordovian
11 (7-14) Karelian
12 (11-13) Tambets_Vepsas
12 (11-13) Veps
22 (15-27) Tambets_Saami_Kola
22 (17-27) Tambets_Tatars
26 (16-30) Chuvash
27 (24-29) Besermyan
30 (28-33) Udmurt
31 (26-34) Tambets_Saami_SWE
31 (31-31) Tambets_Maris
35 (7-62) Tambets_Mansi
36 (22-47) Bashkir
54 (52-55) Tatar_Siberian_Zabolotniye
55 (48-59) Mansi
59 (57-64) Tambets_Khanty
68 (39-90) Selkup
79 (73-82) Enets
87 (42-94) Tofalar
88 (81-95) Dolgan
90 (89-90) Todzin
99 (95-100) Nganasan

The Mansi samples by Tambets range from 7% East Eurasian to 62% East Eurasian, so they're only 35% East Eurasian on average. The Bashkir samples from Jeong et al. have a range of 22% to 47%, because the northern Bashkir samples have much lower East Eurasian ancestry than the southern Bashkir samples.

Full results:

0 (0-0) Sardinian
0 (0-1) Basque
0 (0-1) Spanish_North
0 (0-2) Italian_North
1 (0-3) Spanish
1 (1-1) Tambets_Germans
1 (0-2) Italian_South
1 (0-2) Sicilian
1 (0-2) English
1 (0-3) French
1 (0-3) Greek
1 (1-2) Cypriot
2 (1-3) Orcadian
2 (0-3) Icelandic
2 (1-3) Croatian
2 (1-3) Maltese
2 (1-2) Jew_Turkish
2 (1-3) Albanian
2 (1-4) Bulgarian
2 (1-3) Lebanese_Christian
2 (1-3) Scottish
2 (1-4) Czech
2 (0-4) Norwegian
2 (1-3) Jew_Moroccan
2 (0-4) Romanian
2 (1-3) Jew_Libyan
2 (1-4) Jew_Tunisian
2 (1-3) Armenian_Hemsheni
2 (0-4) Armenian
2 (2-2) Tambets_Gagauzes
2 (2-3) Jew_Iraqi
2 (1-4) Druze
2 (0-4) Jew_Ashkenazi
2 (2-2) Tambets_Latvians
2 (1-4) Moldavian
3 (0-8) Georgian
3 (1-4) Gagauz
3 (2-4) Lithuanian
3 (2-4) Hungarian
3 (1-4) BedouinB
3 (1-6) Assyrian
3 (1-5) Ukrainian_North
3 (1-4) Ukrainian
3 (2-5) Jew_Georgian
3 (2-5) Jew_Iranian
4 (4-4) Kabardinian_outlier
4 (2-5) Lebanese_Muslim
4 (4-5) Abazin_outlier
4 (3-6) Belarusian
4 (4-4) Tambets_Swedes
4 (3-6) Palestinian
5 (2-8) Lebanese
5 (1-8) Tambets_Estonians
5 (4-5) Abkhasian
5 (3-9) Estonian
5 (3-8) Jordanian
5 (0-8) Syrian
5 (5-5) Avar_outlier2
5 (5-5) Avar_outlier1
6 (3-8) BedouinA
6 (3-12) Tambets_Poles
6 (5-8) Kubachinian
6 (3-7) Kaitag
6 (5-8) Ezid
6 (4-9) Kurd
7 (4-9) Tabasaran
7 (5-8) Egyptian
7 (6-8) Darginian
7 (6-8) Lezgin
7 (5-8) Libyan
7 (3-13) Russian
7 (4-9) Chechen
7 (6-8) Avar
7 (5-8) Lak
7 (6-8) Tambets_Russians_Central
7 (6-10) Mozabite
8 (6-10) Tunisian
8 (6-10) Tambets_Karels
8 (5-12) Adygei
8 (7-9) Algerian
8 (5-11) Iranian
8 (6-10) Ingushian
8 (6-12) Moroccan
9 (1-19) Turkish
9 (6-12) Tambets_Ingrian
9 (5-13) Tambets_Finns
9 (4-11) Kumyk
10 (7-12) Finnish
10 (8-13) Azeri
10 (6-13) Mordovian
10 (7-13) Ossetian
11 (8-13) Circassian
11 (7-14) Karelian
11 (10-12) Russian_Archangelsk_Krasnoborsky
11 (9-13) Balkar
11 (9-14) Karachai
12 (9-17) Kabardinian
12 (11-13) Tambets_Vepsas
12 (11-13) Veps
12 (10-15) Abazin
14 (12-15) Russian_Archangelsk_Pinezhsky
16 (13-21) Balochi
16 (14-21) Brahui
17 (16-18) Turkish_Balikesir
17 (15-18) Russian_Archangelsk_Leshukonsky
18 (17-21) Tatar_Mishar
19 (18-21) Kalash
21 (17-25) Pathan
22 (15-28) Tajik
22 (15-27) Tambets_Saami_Kola
22 (17-27) Tambets_Tatars
23 (21-25) Tatar_Kazan
26 (26-26) Turkmen_outlier
26 (16-30) Chuvash
27 (24-29) Besermyan
27 (21-36) Nogai_Karachay_Cherkessia
30 (28-33) Udmurt
30 (28-33) Burusho
31 (26-34) Tambets_Saami_SWE
31 (31-31) Tambets_Maris
35 (29-38) Punjabi
35 (7-62) Tambets_Mansi
36 (22-47) Bashkir
36 (10-59) Aleut
37 (32-48) Turkmen
41 (20-56) Uzbek
47 (33-61) Tlingit
50 (42-56) Tatar_Siberian
50 (37-60) Nogai_Stavropol
50 (45-56) Yukagir_Forest
50 (50-50) Tambets_Buryats
54 (52-55) Tatar_Siberian_Zabolotniye
55 (48-59) Mansi
56 (54-58) Nogai_Astrakhan
56 (48-67) Uyghur
56 (53-58) Hazara
57 (50-64) Karakalpak
59 (46-66) Altaian_Chelkan
59 (57-64) Tambets_Khanty
62 (62-62) Khakass_outlier
63 (58-67) Tubalar
64 (63-66) Shor_Mountain
65 (61-70) Kazakh
66 (62-68) Shor_Khakassia
68 (65-70) Kyrgyz_Tajikistan
68 (39-90) Selkup
69 (54-79) Khakass
70 (61-75) Kyrgyz_China
70 (35-98) Even
71 (66-74) Kyrgyz_Kyrgyzstan
71 (65-74) Ket
74 (67-82) Kazakh_China
76 (71-79) Khakass_Kachin
76 (73-80) Altaian
79 (73-82) Enets
83 (81-86) Kalmyk
85 (66-100) Evenk_FarEast
85 (81-89) Tuvinian
86 (84-89) Salar
87 (42-94) Tofalar
88 (83-92) Mongol
88 (86-93) Dongxiang
88 (81-95) Dolgan
88 (79-92) Buryat
89 (85-92) Dungan
90 (89-90) Todzin
91 (85-95) Yakut
91 (86-93) Khamnegan
92 (87-97) Bonan
94 (92-96) Tu
96 (89-100) Yugur
96 (92-100) Yukagir_Tundra
96 (91-100) Evenk_Transbaikal
96 (90-100) Tibetan
96 (95-97) Mongola
97 (94-99) Xibo
98 (96-99) Daur
99 (95-100) Nganasan
99 (95-100) Oroqen
99 (97-100) Hezhen
100 (98-100) Qiang
100 (97-100) Han
100 (100-100) Japanese
100 (100-100) Korean

Am surprised the Maris in that run are only 31% Eastern Eurasian/ENA (Eastern Non-African) and that even Udmurts can score even slightly more Eastern Eurasian than Maris here.

Because in G25, Maris can even be up close to 35% depending on the samples/calculators used while it seems Udmurts in G25 are less ENA than in this run:

Mari average: I use the Davidski Global Standard calculator but add the Sintashta, KAZ_Maitan_Alakul (Steppe), Baltic_LTU_BA/EST_BA into the run:

Target: Mari
Distance: 8.8936% / 0.08893626
40.6 Baltic_LTU_BA
32.6 RUS_Krasnoyarsk_BA
24.0 KAZ_Maitan_MLBA_Alakul
2.2 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
0.6 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N

Most Eastern-shifted Maris:


Target: Mari:mari1
Distance: 8.6989% / 0.08698884
38.6 Baltic_LTU_BA
33.8 RUS_Krasnoyarsk_BA
22.4 KAZ_Maitan_MLBA_Alakul
5.2 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara


Target: Mari:mari3
Distance: 8.8181% / 0.08818085
41.4 Baltic_LTU_BA
32.6 RUS_Krasnoyarsk_BA
23.8 KAZ_Maitan_MLBA_Alakul
2.2 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara

Compare to the Udmurts on G25:

Udmurt Average:

Target: Udmurt
Distance: 2.9797% / 0.02979689
26.2 RUS_Krasnoyarsk_BA
23.6 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
23.0 RUS_Sintashta_MLBA
15.0 Baltic_LTU_BA
9.8 KAZ_Maitan_MLBA_Alakul
1.2 TUR_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N
1.0 Baltic_EST_BA
0.2 Levant_PPNB

Most Eastern-shifted Udmurts:

Target: Udmurt:udmurd8
Distance: 3.2481% / 0.03248071
28.6 RUS_Krasnoyarsk_BA
21.0 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
20.4 KAZ_Maitan_MLBA_Alakul
17.0 RUS_Sintashta_MLBA
11.6 Baltic_LTU_BA
1.0 Levant_PPNB
0.4 TUR_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N

Target: Udmurt:153_R02C01
Distance: 4.8473% / 0.04847300
29.8 RUS_Sintashta_MLBA
28.2 RUS_Krasnoyarsk_BA
23.4 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
9.6 KAZ_Maitan_MLBA_Alakul
9.0 Baltic_LTU_BA

If we utilize G25 as the base, its a bit puzzling how the Udmurts in the 1240K run have higher Eastern Eurasian range (28-33%) compare to the Maris (31-31%) when in G25 its the reverse.

Also this qpAdm data showing Mari to be more ENA:

Udmurt
Nganasan: 0.3070.007
Estonia_MN_CCC: 0.1500.033
Latvia_LN_CordedWare: 0.3870.045
Ukraine_Globular_Amphora: 0.1550.029
tail: 0.099657
chisq: 15.999
Udmurt_1.txt

Mari
Nganasan: 0.3440.013
Estonia_MN_CCC: 0.1530.052
Latvia_LN_CordedWare: 0.2800.078
Ukraine_Globular_Amphora: 0.2230.049
tail: 0.119238
chisq: 15.367
Mari_1.txt

Nganasankhan
09-24-2021, 06:18 PM
Am surprised the Maris in that run are only 31% Eastern Eurasian/ENA (Eastern Non-African) and that even Udmurts can score even slightly more Eastern Eurasian than Maris here.

...

If we utilize G25 as the base, its a bit puzzling how the Udmurts in the 1240K run have higher Eastern Eurasian range (28-33%) compare to the Maris (31-31%) when in G25 its the reverse.

There was only one Mari sample in the run, and other Mari samples would've probably gotten a higher percentage of the eastern component.

Also in order to increase the percentage of the eastern component in Maris, I could've included only Siberians and no East Asians in the run. Or I could've included a lot of WHG or ENF samples. Or I could've done a run with 3 or 4 components, so the eastern component would've split off into Siberian and East Asian components, which would usually result in Maris getting a higher percentage of the Siberian component.

The image below shows ADMIXTURE runs using the same samples as my previous run, except I added one more Mari sample. The new sample looks a bit more eastern than the old sample. In the run with 2 components, the old Mari sample got 31% of the East Asian component and the new sample got 33%, and in the run with 4 components, the old Mari sample is 27% Siberian and 4% East Asian and the new one is 28% Siberian and 5% East Asian. This time splitting the eastern component into Siberian and East Asian components actually reduced the total amount of East Eurasian ancestry in some Uralic populations, but usually it's the reverse. Maybe it's because in the K=4 run, the West Eurasian component also split off into European and MENA components, which caused Uralic populations to get a component which fits their western ancestry better than the combined European-MENA component of the K=2 run.

https://i.ibb.co/sQVhVBF/circlize.jpg

I created the plot using the Circlize package: https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?23708-Shell-and-R-scripts-for-SmartPCA-and-ADMIXTURE&p=771174&viewfull=1#post771174.

BTW the K=3 run is also interesting, because the average amount of the European component is about as high in Swedish Saami as in Latvians, and it's about as high in Khanty as in Bulgarians:

https://i.ibb.co/QHxd5nd/admixpoly.jpg

There are two samples labeled Tambets_Tatars, but I think the other one is a Crimean Tatar, because it plots close to Nogais from Karachay-Cherkessia. There is one sample labeled Tambets_Buryats, but it looks like hapa.

Tsakhur
09-24-2021, 06:54 PM
There was only one Mari sample in the run, and other Mari samples would've probably gotten a higher percentage of the eastern component.

Also in order to increase the percentage of the eastern component in Maris, I could've included only Siberians and no East Asians in the run. Or I could've included a lot of WHG or ENF samples. Or I could've done a run with 3 or 4 components, so the eastern component would've split off into Siberian and East Asian components, which would usually result in Maris getting a higher percentage of the Siberian component.

The image below shows ADMIXTURE runs using the same samples as my previous run, except I added one more Mari sample. The new sample looks a bit more eastern than the old sample. In the run with 2 components, the old Mari sample got 31% of the East Asian component and the new sample got 33%, and in the run with 4 components, the old Mari sample is 27% Siberian and 4% East Asian and the new one is 28% Siberian and 5% East Asian. This time splitting the eastern component into Siberian and East Asian components actually reduced the total amount of East Eurasian ancestry in some Uralic populations, but usually it's the reverse. Maybe it's because in the K=4 run, the West Eurasian component also split off into European and MENA components, which caused Uralic populations to get a component which fits their western ancestry better than the combined European-MENA component of the K=2 run.

https://i.ibb.co/sQVhVBF/circlize.jpg

I created the plot using the Circlize package: https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?23708-Shell-and-R-scripts-for-SmartPCA-and-ADMIXTURE&p=771174&viewfull=1#post771174.

Nice! Great comparison of various Eurasian populations. There also new Mari samples which hasn't been add to G25 yet and they seem slightly less ENA than the ones already in the datasheet: https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?22733-651-New-Sample-for-G25

It seems Volga Ural folks also score minor amounts of East Asian and MENA component which likely comes from Turkics and Iranian tribes like Scythians, Sarmatians who used to roam the areas. There were some Scythians and Sarmatians from the Urals in G25 database, for instance.

Nganasankhan
09-24-2021, 07:21 PM
It seems Volga Ural folks also score minor amounts of East Asian and MENA component which likely comes from Turkics and Iranian tribes like Scythians, Sarmatians who used to roam the areas. There were some Scythians and Sarmatians from the Urals in G25 database, for instance.

Yeah, I tried making a SmartPCA run of the samples in my previous post, and I used a G25-style scaled datasheet of the run to model Udmurts, but they got 11% Darginian and 1% Kalash ancestry:

Udmurt (.002):
37% Tambets_Maris
24% Tambets_Khanty
20% Tambets_Latvians
11% Darginian
3% Tambets_Saami_SWE
3% Tubalar
1% Kalash

Also if Udmurts are modeled using a global f2 matrix of 265 populations (https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?23677-R-scripts-for-ADMIXTOOLS-2&p=798523&viewfull=1#post798523), and if Besermyans are excluded from the source populations, then Udmurts get 4% Darginian and 3% Kaitag ancestry:

Udmurt (.006):
47% Chuvash
25% Mansi
17% Russian_Archangelsk_Pinezhsky
4% Russian_Archangelsk_Leshukonsky
4% Darginian
3% Kaitag
1% Tlingit
0% Mordovian

If Chuvashes, Tatars, Bashkirs, and Mordovians are also excluded from the source populations, then Udmurts get 11% Tajik:

Udmurt (.007):
47% Russian_Archangelsk_Krasnoborsky
32% Mansi
11% Tajik
6% Yukagir_Forest
3% Aleut

If Mordvins are modeled using the f2 matrix, and if Tatars, Chuvashes, and Bashkirs are excluded from the source populations, then Mordvins get 7% Nogai and 2% Tajik ancestry:

Mordovian (.002):
61% Russian
29% Russian_Archangelsk_Krasnoborsky
7% Nogai_Karachay_Cherkessia
2% Aleut
2% Tajik
0% Udmurt

You can download the f2 matrix here: https://pastebin.com/raw/B1t0ESsj. You can then use it to create models with Vahaduo.

Nganasankhan
09-24-2021, 07:54 PM
Here's models made using the f2 matrix linked in my previous post, with the sources Belarusian, Norwegian, Croatian, Mongol, Yakut, and Nganasan:

$ curl -Ls pastebin.com/raw/B1t0ESsj|tr -d \\r>f2
$ curl -Ls pastebin.com/raw/afaMiFSa|tr -d \\r>mix;chmod +x mix
$ pip3 install cvxpy
[...]
$ for t in Hungarian Estonian Finnish Karelian Veps Mordovian Udmurt Mansi Selkup Enets Nganasan;do mix <(printf %s\\n Croatian Belarusian Yakut Nganasan Mongol Norwegian|awk -F, 'NR==FNR{a[$0];next}$1 in a' - f2) <(grep ^$t, f2) -s -t.01;done
Hungarian (.006): 93% Croatian + 6% Belarusian + 1% Mongol
Estonian (.005): 86% Belarusian + 12% Norwegian + 2% Nganasan
Finnish (.010): 93% Belarusian + 7% Mongol
Karelian (.009): 91% Belarusian + 9% Mongol
Veps (.009): 90% Belarusian + 7% Yakut + 3% Mongol
Mordovian (.019): 46% Croatian + 45% Belarusian + 9% Mongol
Udmurt (.028): 70% Belarusian + 30% Mongol
Mansi (.027): 59% Mongol + 40% Belarusian + 1% Yakut
Selkup (.023): 64% Yakut + 27% Belarusian + 10% Mongol
Enets (.017): 60% Yakut + 23% Nganasan + 16% Belarusian
Nganasan (.000): 100% Nganasan

I made the models using a modified version of michal3141's convex optimization script (https://github.com/michal3141/g25), which produces models that are virtually identical to Vahaduo.

Mongols are a mixed population with low drift, so they are preferred as a source in these f2-based models, but Nganasans are a drifted population that has high f2 distance to other populations, so they are not preferred as a source.

This employs the same concept as what Kale calls f3 outgroup nMonte (https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?16180-Modern-poles-of-Eurasian-variation), except I use a matrix of f2 stats where the columns consist of 265 modern populations, and he uses a matrix of f3 stats where the columns consist of about 10 ancient populations.