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Moos
01-21-2021, 10:37 PM
I was reading an old linguistic paper and the author concluded that the Jiddu Southern Somali dialect has a sidamo (highland east Cushitic language) and a konso like substratum.


Since Somalis don’t border these groups and no other Somali dialects contain similar elements, The author claimed this proves Jiido groups travelled from Ethiopia and were Somalised when they arrived in Southern Somalia.


Very interesting claim since the jiddu claim a Somali lineage. The ones in Ethiopia speak afaan Oromo.

DNA studies on them would be interesting.

Moos
01-21-2021, 10:55 PM
https://arcadia.sba.uniroma3.it/bitstream/2307/980/5/02_M.%20LAMBERTI%20-%20The%20origin%20of%20the%20Jiiddu%20of%20Somalia .pdf

drobbah
01-21-2021, 11:39 PM
Didn't the Orma (Oromo sub-branch) use to live in South Somalia but were pushed south to the River Tana in Kenya by the more powerful Daroods venturing South for better pastures? I think South Somalia was a lot more diverse than today

Moos
01-23-2021, 02:18 PM
@Drobbah,

Prior to the mass Oromo migrations in the Middle Ages into Southern Somalia, Eastern Ethiopia and Kenya, there would have been a continuous presence of Omo-Tana speakers in these regions.

The Oromo migrations split Somali speakers form other Omo-Tana speakers such as the Rendille and so forth.

Oromo are not really native to Northern Kenya and Southern Somalia.

afbarwaaqo
01-24-2021, 07:24 AM
autosomally i don't believe they're any different than any other somali clan, i was always under the assumption that jiddu and other maay languages all branched off from the same proto somali group that maxaa (standard somali) branched off from.

Mirix
01-30-2021, 08:38 AM
Didn't the Orma (Oromo sub-branch) use to live in South Somalia but were pushed south to the River Tana in Kenya by the more powerful Daroods venturing South for better pastures? I think South Somalia was a lot more diverse than today

Prior to the Orma it was a Somali speaking madanle group that lived in South Somalia along with the Tunni/Garre and then by the 16th century Oromo migration orma founds it way there. And then in the 19th century Daroods due to droughts migrated south and squeezed them out.

But yeah don't think they have anything to do with the Dialects in the south.

Mirix
01-30-2021, 08:44 AM
Could very well be. Honestly i think South Somalia prior to the 1st century AD was populated by a seperate South Cushitic speaking stock that were later Somalinized by the Northern Somali Migration. That probably accounts for the dialectal diversity you see in the South Somalia and the substratum.

That and the fact that Raxanweyn are pretty much a conglomerate that are known to assimilate foreigners into their social structure, wether they be other east africans or other Somali clan groups. But this happened very early in history and probably by the 1st century AD due to continous stream of Northern Migrations the people were fully Somalinized.

drobbah
01-30-2021, 12:23 PM
Prior to the Orma it was a Somali speaking madanle group that lived in South Somalia along with the Tunni/Garre and then by the 16th century Oromo migration orma founds it way there. And then in the 19th century Daroods due to droughts migrated south and squeezed them out.

But yeah don't think they have anything to do with the Dialects in the south.
Tunni aren't Somalis but Af-Maay people and Garre probably never spoke Somali but a language called AfGarre.I don't think Somalis were in places like Banadir untill the early middle ages and Jubaland untill the last two centuries.

Mirix
01-31-2021, 02:23 AM
Tunni aren't Somalis but Af-Maay people and Garre probably never spoke Somali but a language called AfGarre.I don't think Somalis were in places like Banadir untill the early middle ages and Jubaland untill the last two centuries.

Af-Maay people are Somalis and as far as Af-Maay is concerned it's a Somali dialect. It has 80-90% of the same vocab and it is partially mutally intelligeable and increase intelligibility with more profeciency you have in Standard Somali. The subtratum you see that accounts for the structual and gramitical differences are from the earliest pre-Somali inhabitants and their diverse less homogenous make up explains the variations . Furthermore there is no real cultural differentiation seperating them from other Northern Somalis as one might think ,economically complimentary and cultural intermingling and the commonalities in language, rich oral literrature not whitstanding the dialectal differences and shared religion pushes against any sort of cultural differentiation. There is also the belief of common descent.

Garre spoke Tunni or a Somali Language and then became more Oromoized in the 16th century migration of Borana and became clients to them. They still kept their Somali culture, identity and genealogy, then speak Somalinized Borana language called Af Garre. Before then Garre was and is mostly associated with the Tunni Clan and is genealogically tied to Dir a Northern clan. Garre themselves hold a tradition of Northern Migrations to the South.

There was also a seperate Somali speaking group called ''Madanle'' that the Ajuuran were the off shot from in Southern Somalia and Northern Kenya in Pre-Islam. They were well diggers and built cairns. Somalis were certainly in Southern Somalia and benadir by the 1st century AD many of these communities like Raxanweyn who are made up of mostly of diverse clans of Northern origin, Ajuuran, Hawiye clans etc have very deep rooted and old farming traditions, well digging and cairn culture in that region in places like Shabelle and Jubba. And the ancient Dabshid, the same calendar observed in both south and north. Alot of it stretches back into Pre-Islam.


The Hawiye of the central region have had a long history of agricultural practices . Oral traditions of those clans show that their settlement and subsequent farming practices have been going on for several centuries

I also think it's consistent with the Peripilus that didn't really differentiate the Southerners from Northerners from eachother and grouped them same.

The migrations from North to South and West has been probably continous throughout history. It didn't happen only in the last two centuries we just have more record of darood migrations because its much closer to our modern time. But before them there was others living there albeit probably more sparsely.

drobbah
01-31-2021, 12:33 PM
Af-Maay people are Somalis and as far as Af-Maay is concerned it's a Somali dialect. It has 80-90% of the same vocab and it is partially mutally intelligeable and increase intelligibility with more profeciency you have in Standard Somali.
Af-Maay is a distinct language and because of discriminatory policies by the Somali government in Mogadishu were forced to identify as Somali and continue to have their language sidelined as a mere backward dialect.Spanish and Portuguese has mutual intelligibility than Af-Maay and Af-Somali.If a Spanish tried learning Portuguese, obviously they would increase their ability to know Portuguese and that goes for anyone learning the language.It's very clear that Af-Maay is not Somali, they are two distinct languages that share a recent origin.The Somali spoken in Benadir is a dialect of Somali, while Northern Somali has dialects of it's own which is now spoken from the Awash river to Garissa.




The subtratum you see that accounts for the structual and gramitical differences are from the earliest pre-Somali inhabitants and their diverse less homogenous make up explains the variations . Furthermore there is no real cultural differentiation seperating them from other Northern Somalis as one might think ,economically complimentary and cultural intermingling and the commonalities in language, rich oral literrature not whitstanding the dialectal differences and shared religion pushes against any sort of cultural differentiation. There is also the belief of common descent.

It is Af-Maay that was probably heavily influenced by the incoming Somali which might account for why intelligibility is one way (Af-Maay speakers can understand Somalis but not the other way around).The Maay People were in Southern Somalia prior to the medieval expansions of Somalis from the North in multiple waves.The Maay people probably lost a lot of their unique culture due to Somalis gaining supremacy in Southern Somalia and being an island of distinct people in a Somali ocean.I've also never heard any Somali from the North/Ethiopia that claims to have common descent with the Af-Maay people, majority of us don't know anything about them except that they don't speak Somali.



Garre spoke Tunni or a Somali Language and then became more Oromoized in the 16th century migration of Borana and became clients to them. They still kept their Somali culture, identity and genealogy, then speak Somalinized Borana language called Af Garre. Before then Garre was and is mostly associated with the Tunni Clan and is genealogically tied to Dir a Northern clan. Garre themselves hold a tradition of Northern Migrations to the South.
Garre spoke a language that was related to Somali,Af-Maay etc but was distinct and was closely related to the language of the Boon hunter-gatherers.



There was also a seperate Somali speaking group called ''Madanle'' that the Ajuuran were the off shot from in Southern Somalia and Northern Kenya in Pre-Islam. They were well diggers and built cairns. Somalis were certainly in Southern Somalia and benadir by the 1st century AD many of these communities like Raxanweyn who are made up of mostly of diverse clans of Northern origin, Ajuuran, Hawiye clans etc have very deep rooted and old farming traditions, well digging and cairn culture in that region in places like Shabelle and Jubba. And the ancient Dabshid, the same calendar observed in both south and north. Alot of it stretches back into Pre-Islam.I also think it's consistent with the Peripilus that didn't really differentiate the Southerners from Northerners from eachother and grouped them same.


The Ajuuraan and majority of the other Somalis all claim a Middle Ages origin in Sanaag.Groups like the Hawiye/Ajuuraan probably left Eastern Somaliland in the early middle ages while clans like the Marexaan migrated south into places like Mudug and beyond in the 16th century onwards.The people who lived in Southern Somalia prior were people like the Maay people, who were linguistically and probably culturally very similar to the Somalis and Northern Kenya was probably full of Rendille-like people before the Somalis & Boranas started encroaching upon them from the North.They probably built those cairns and deep rooted farming traditons as Somalis generally had a disdain for such activities.I wouldn't be shocked if foreigners couldn't tell the difference between Somalis and those linguisitcally & culturally similiar to us who were the original inhabitants of the region prior to the Middle Ages.






The migrations from North to South and West has been probably continous throughout history. It didn't happen only in the last two centuries we just have more record of darood migrations because its much closer to our modern time. But before them there was others living there albeit probably more sparsely.I agree there were many waves of Somalis from Eastern Somaliland with the Ajuuraan/Hawiye and other Samaale groups being the first to venture south with waves of Dir (Surre,Biyomaal etc) and Daroods coming later.

Moos
01-31-2021, 12:45 PM
Mutual intelligibility isnít the only criteria for differentiating between a dialect and a language.

For example, no x sound in af maay means that a lot of words may seem alien to maaxa tiri speakers, but itís still the same words, with same meaning........

Also most linguists of East Cushitic languages- Lambert, Fleming and professor Abdullahi Mansur, who is himself a Maay Maay speaker, consider Af Maxaa Tiri and Maay as dialects of of the Somali language.

I think it is important to read the works of these guys before one draws a conclusion.

drobbah
01-31-2021, 12:48 PM
Mutual intelligibility isn’t the only criteria for differentiating between a dialect and a language.

For example, no x sound in Arabic means that a lot of words may seem alien to maaxa tiri speakers, but it’s still the same words, with same meaning........

Also most linguists of East Cushitic languages- Lambert, Fleming and professor Abdullahi Mansur, who is himself a Maay Maay speaker, consider Af Maxaa Tiri and Maay as dialects of of the Somali language.

I think it is important to read the works of these guys before one draws a conclusion.
Maay isn't a dialect, there's literally no mutual intelligibility between the language spoken in Hargeisa and what's spoken in Baydhabo.I know there's political reasons why many of you don't want to accept this but you are definitely entitled to your opinions

Moos
01-31-2021, 12:52 PM
Could very well be. Honestly i think South Somalia prior to the 1st century AD was populated by a seperate South Cushitic speaking stock that were later Somalinized by the Northern Somali Migration. That probably accounts for the dialectal diversity you see in the South Somalia and the substratum.

That and the fact that Raxanweyn are pretty much a conglomerate that are known to assimilate foreigners into their social structure, wether they be other east africans or other Somali clan groups. But this happened very early in history and probably by the 1st century AD due to continous stream of Northern Migrations the people were fully Somalinized.

i think there might have been some kind of east/south Cushitic types and Small of amounts of Hunter gatherer types similar to Dahlak.
https://langsci-press.org/catalog/view/192/1510/1623-1

Paper on contact between Garre and other groups.

altvred
01-31-2021, 01:04 PM
Af-Maay is a distinct language and because of discriminatory policies by the Somali government in Mogadishu were forced to identify as Somali and continue to have their language sidelined as a mere backward dialect.Spanish and Portuguese has mutual intelligibility than Af-Maay and Af-Somali.If a Spanish tried learning Portuguese, obviously they would increase their ability to know Portuguese and that goes for anyone learning the language.It's very clear that Af-Maay is not Somali, they are two distinct languages that share a recent origin.The Somali spoken in Benadir is a dialect of Somali, while Northern Somali has dialects of it's own which is now spoken from the Awash river to Garissa.

More often than not, the distinction between formal languages and mere dialects is rooted in purely political reasoning.

As the saying goes, "A language is a dialect with an army and navy."

Moos
01-31-2021, 01:05 PM
Ps. Garre are literally Somali migrants from the Somali Galbeed who arrived in southern Somali around 900-1000 years ago.

This is their oral history and if aligns with linguistic data which shows the likes of Boni language were in contact with Garre speakers around this time.

drobbah
01-31-2021, 03:41 PM
Ps. Garre are literally Somali migrants from the Somali Galbeed who arrived in southern Somali around 900-1000 years ago.

This is their oral history and if aligns with linguistic data which shows the likes of Boni language were in contact with Garre speakers around this time.
Garre are not Somalis, they are Garre with a distinct language but sadly the vast majority of them now speak Borana.


Islamic lecture in the Garre language

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HV6gR92HcfQ

Mirix
01-31-2021, 04:17 PM
Af-Maay is a distinct language and because of discriminatory policies by the Somali government in Mogadishu were forced to identify as Somali and continue to have their language sidelined as a mere backward dialect.Spanish and Portuguese has mutual intelligibility than Af-Maay and Af-Somali.If a Spanish tried learning Portuguese, obviously they would increase their ability to know Portuguese and that goes for anyone learning the language.It's very clear that Af-Maay is not Somali, they are two distinct languages that share a recent origin.The Somali spoken in Benadir is a dialect of Somali, while Northern Somali has dialects of it's own which is now spoken from the Awash river to Garissa.

Af-Maay definitely isn't a distinct language because unilke Portugese and Spanish , it shares the same overlapping common cultural history with Standard Somali. This is discussed at length on this paper which actually tested it Somali Dialects in the United States: How Intelligible is Af-Maay to Speakers of Af-Maxaa?
(https://cornerstone.lib.mnsu.edu/etds/276/) and came to the conclusion that it was a Type 5 dialect.

What you are spouting right now is just regional ethnocentrism that came about as reaction to the old government that sought homogenize Somalis to promote unity but favored Northerns themselves instead of accepting its diversity, the same people who are propnents of this fall in the same trap they are trying to replace. Creating a false binary of Northern Nomadic vs Southern agro-pastoral.


It is Af-Maay that was probably heavily influenced by the incoming Somali which might account for why intelligibility is one way (Af-Maay speakers can understand Somalis but not the other way around).The Maay People were in Southern Somalia prior to the medieval expansions of Somalis from the North in multiple waves.The Maay people probably lost a lot of their unique culture due to Somalis gaining supremacy in Southern Somalia and being an island of distinct people in a Somali ocean.I've also never heard any Somali from the North/Ethiopia that claims to have common descent with the Af-Maay people, majority of us don't know anything about them except that they don't speak Somali.

Af - Maay is completely Somalinized besides the gramatical and some structural differences , the mutual intelligeability isn't really suprising when a lot of Raxanweyn clans is of Northern Somali origin. And the fact that they have an overlapping cultural history with of Af-Maxaa. It's not 1 way, read the paper i linked they tested Af-Maxa speakers understanding of Af-Maay and the more proficient they were in standard Somali the more likely they were to understand Af-Maay.

Maay are not a distinct cultural grouping they simply a subset Somali group that retained substratum in their language from the earliest cushitic settlers in the region. Raxanweyn are made up different types of clan groups of diverse origin, they are not exactly one homogenous group of people. But they overall claim common lineal descent with the other major Somali clans and this recognized by Somalis in general.

Some clans claim Northern origin and some Raxanweyn groups of have clan patriarchs burried in the north as well as in the south.



Garre spoke a language that was related to Somali,Af-Maay etc but was distinct and was closely related to the language of the Boon hunter-gatherers.

They didn't speak Oromo that was the point i was making. They most likely spoke a Somali language seeing how Af-Garre is basically just a Somalinized Borana .


The Ajuuraan and majority of the other Somalis all claim a Middle Ages origin in Sanaag.Groups like the Hawiye/Ajuuraan probably left Eastern Somaliland in the early middle ages while clans like the Marexaan migrated south into places like Mudug and beyond in the 16th century onwards.The people who lived in Southern Somalia prior were people like the Maay people, who were linguistically and probably culturally very similar to the Somalis and Northern Kenya was probably full of Rendille-like people before the Somalis & Boranas started encroaching upon them from the North.They probably built those cairns and deep rooted farming traditons as Somalis generally had a disdain for such activities.I wouldn't be shocked if foreigners couldn't tell the difference between Somalis and those linguisitcally & culturally similiar to us who were the original inhabitants of the region prior to the Middle Ages.

Ajuuran ruling family claim Origins in the North and also origins in the West , not the clan group itself and that has more or less has to do with constant movement and cross migrations of clergy during the middle ages if anything else. We even saw the reversal with Sheikh Hussain migrating to southern Ethiopia from his birth place of Merca and Establishing a sultanate. This does not mean the native people living there were replaced.

Rendiille is proof more proof than anything that it was a Madanle Somali speaking group that was living in Northern Kenya and probably Southern Somalia, their language is the closest to Somali, if not was actually a Somali speaking group that broke off during conversion of Islam and then ended up mixing with Nilotic speakers. Thats why they are reffered to as Reer Diid (The Rejectors) by the Ajuurans themselves.

It was most likely the Ajuuran that built those cairns and wells retain cultural traditions and features from it, there is even a section of them called El Kode(Well diggers) and display a well digging culture.

Somalis had no general disdain , don't understand why you keep repeating that when Somalis would settle and take up different types of occupations depending on the suitability of the environment they lived in. It's no suprise that hawiye, dirr and raxanweyn along the banks Shabelle and Jubba rivers actually practiced settled Mixed farming and like i qouted have a long agricultural history in that region which you can gleam from their oral tradition. Farming similar crops and using the same farming calendars as the ones in the North.

I feel Awale explain this really well in another post: https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?17953-The-territories-of-the-Somali-clans-and-their-historic-migrations-and-wanderings&p=679991&viewfull=1#post679991

You can even say the same for Western Somalis and Dir along Harraghe Highlands and along its major rivers although some of them have been assimilated by Oromo. But express similar social organization to the ones in the south as well . Point being the increase of farming occupations was not ideology based had more to do with the suitability othe environment, along fertile regions and rivers.

Futhermore Garre for example claim Northern Origin but you and i both wouldn't suggest this was a recent thing would we?


I agree there were many waves of Somalis from Eastern Somaliland with the Ajuuraan/Hawiye and other Samaale groups being the first to venture south with waves of Dir (Surre,Biyomaal etc) and Daroods coming later.

All i am saying is that the migrations were continous throughout history and some migrations happened very early, migrations of Darood and Dir as well to the West. These people settled and established farming comminities and cities.

drobbah
01-31-2021, 04:44 PM
People with different dialects can understand each other, quite simply af-maay is not comprehensible to the average reer Hargeisa,Djibouti or Jigjiga who has not been exposed to their language.We can understand the dialects of Banadir even those thick cadcad xamarawi ones but not the Maay language.There's nothing ethnocentric about saying these people are distinct and are not Somalis.Their language,culture and rights have been trampled upon by the Darood & Hawiye Somalis in the South who dominate the Mogadishu government since independence.Even right now the Af-Maay language has been heavily influenced by Somalis yet it's still mostly not understandable, I bet pre-modern era Af-Maay was even more distinct than it is now.Hopefully one day their language becomes one of the official languages of Somalia instead of Arabic considering they are at least 30% if not more of Somalia's population.

Mirix
01-31-2021, 05:34 PM
People with different dialects can understand each other, quite simply af-maay is not comprehensible to the average reer Hargeisa,Djibouti or Jigjiga who has not been exposed to their language.We can understand the dialects of Banadir even those thick cadcad xamarawi ones but not the Maay language.There's nothing ethnocentric about saying these people are distinct and are not Somalis.Their language,culture and rights have been trampled upon by the Darood & Hawiye Somalis in the South who dominate the Mogadishu government since independence.Even right now the Af-Maay language has been heavily influenced by Somalis yet it's still mostly not understandable,I bet pre-modern era Af-Maay was even more distinct than it is now.Hopefully one day their language becomes one of the official languages of Somalia instead of Arabic considering they are at least 30% if not more of Somalia's population.

This has less to do with whats actual fact and more to do with your own rigid conceptualization what constitutes a Somali. Ideolgically based if anything else. What i linked you was an actual study that tested Af-Maxaa speakers on Af-Maay which came to the conclusion it was partially mutally intelligeable and is a Type 5 dialect with overlapping common cultural history. You didn't even look at it. Even if we take the dialectical differences in cosideration still wouldn't be withstanding as explained by Ali Hersi:

This ecomonic and cultural differentiation between northern pastoralist and the souther farmer, however is not as serious as it may sound on first hearin. Ther are no natural barriers to separate them, and their habitation of the same contiguous territory entails constant rubbing of shoulders. Economic complementarity, whereby the pastoralist barters his milk and meat for the farmers grain and richer pasture, also helpts the maintenance of contacts and cultural intermingling. A commonality of language and rich oral literrature--notwithstanding dialectal differences coinciding with the cultural cleavage and shared religion (Islam) are other factors also militating against the process of cultural differentiation.

Ironically nothing you said is rooted in Somali traditional thinking but has more to do with outdated colonial anthropological views that sought disemember Somali society as only a pastoral based experience to legitimize it's own colonial agendas. And this outdated view was borrowed by the Siad Barre government that used this to promote it's false nationalism.

Somalis themselves however have always viewed themselves to be diverse group of related people, with varrying occupations, economic modes of life and with regional varriations. They never put themselves in a rigid box until recently and lived complimentarily with eachother. Dividing the South from the North is just regional ethnocentrism really that which auguments diviseness of Somali society. There is no real proof to the last part of what you said , infact more proof to the contrary like i explained in my previous post and it doesn't really rob anyone to consider it an equal dialect, it can recieve the same regard as Af-Maxaa.

drobbah
01-31-2021, 05:54 PM
You are entitled to your opinion brother but I can't personally consider people I can not understand as being the same ethnicity as me.A related people sure but not the same as me but you are entitled to your opinion and the study you linked isn't infallible either.In fact it's well known the majority of Somali speakers in America are Southerners (Banadir Somali speakers) so that's has already made the study biased imo.Even Maay people who come to Hargeisa will tell you that they are understood better in Xamar than in Somaliland when they visit us.It is clear original Somali speakers as spoken in SL/Djibouti don't understand Af Maay and often confuse them for Oromos.

Mirix
01-31-2021, 06:08 PM
You are entitled to your opinion brother but I can't personally consider people I can not understand as being the same ethnicity as me.A related people sure but not the same as me but you are entitled to your opinion and the study you linked isn't infallible either.In fact it's well known the majority of Somali speakers in America are Southerners (Banadir Somali speakers) so that's has already made the study biased imo.Even Maay people who come to Hargeisa will tell you that they are understood better in Xamar than in Somaliland when they visit us.It is clear original Somali speakers as spoken in SL/Djibouti don't understand Af Maay and often confuse them for Oromos.

There is no opinion here. It's only you stating opinions and assertions. You ignored and called a study biased because it contradicted your own ideology around what you think constitutes a Somali and your belief that it's not mutually intelligeable. You more or less have your own ethnic regional northern bias. I remember how you tried to apply a different form of ethnocentric regionalism by trying to insiunuate that Isaaq and Dir was seperate from other Somalis clans in the Hubal thread and used faulty logic to arrive at that and sometimes try to use to do the same T haplogroup even.

Anyways hope others reading this thread will learn something from the posts. Moos raised a good question for further enquiry.

Deftextra
01-31-2021, 06:42 PM
I am not that knowledgeable about different Somali dialects, But from my personal experience, growing up mostly with the Xamari Somali dialect on my fathers side and my mothers Af-Merka dialect/language, from how I understand languages, they could be more or less be classified as different languages.

Af-Merka has allot of similarities with both northern Somali and af-maay, but has some properties unique to the language. It has a very different morphology for example where you add suffixes and prefixes which change the meaning of a word and is unique to the language, also I have noticed grammatical structure of sentences can also be very different.

I grew up mostly with my fathers the xamar Somali dialect and I sometimes have a hard time understanding my mothers af-Marka dialect/language. Also my cousins who grew up in the diaspora with Af-Merka and have been isolated from standard Somali can barely or not at all understand standard Somali.

My Somali friends would also be very confused when they hear Af-Marka being spoken in my family, because it sounds very alien to most of them. But this might be because they grew up in the diaspora.

Mirix
01-31-2021, 06:56 PM
I am not that knowledgeable about different Somali dialects, But from my personal experience, growing up mostly with the Xamari Somali dialect on my fathers side and my mothers Af-Merka dialect/language, from how I understand languages, they could be more or less be classified as different languages.

Af-Merka has allot of similarities with both northern Somali and af-maay, but has some properties unique to the language. It has a very different morphology for example where you add suffixes and prefixes which change the meaning of a word and is unique to the language, also I have noticed grammatical structure of sentences can also be very different.

I grew up mostly with my fathers the xamar Somali dialect and I sometimes have a hard time understanding my mothers af-Marka dialect/language. Also my cousins who grew up in the diaspora with Af-Merka and have been isolated from standard Somali can barely or not at all understand standard Somali.

My Somali friends would also be very confused when they hear Af-Marka being spoken in my family, because it sounds very alien to most of them. But this might be because they grew up in the diaspora.

Wether a something classified as a dialect or a language isn't solely political, but there is linguistic and non-linguistic factors that should be considered. For Af-Benadiri dialect is very mutually intelligeable with Af-Maxaa, don't know if it's a dialect continumum with Af Maxaa it certaintly is not with Af-Maay as the study i linked explained. Meaning their close situation to them does not add to increased intelligeability between Af-Maay and Af-Benadiri-

I think this table will help lend an understanding to how language-dialect relationships are concieved. If you look at Danish and Norwegian they are mutually intelligeable but have seperate cultural history and therefore it's that non-linguistic factor that makes up the deciding difference between them.

42985

Af-Maxaa, Af-Maay and Af-Benadiri however share the same overlapping common cultural history and have varrying degrees of intelligeability between them. Thats why it makes sense to consider them dialects of the same language as opposed to distinct languages.

drobbah
01-31-2021, 07:26 PM
There is no opinion here. It's only you stating opinions and assertions. You ignored and called a study biased because it contradicted your own ideology around what you think constitutes a Somali
There isn't an opinion, you are right.What constitues a Somali is someone who traces his lineage to a Somali clan and speaks the Somali language.Raxanweyn isn't a Somali clan neither do they speak Somali.The only one with an ideology here is you that wants to continue Hawiye-Darood oppression of the Raxanweyn.Their language is distinct and I hope one day Somali kacaanist nationalists wake up and realize that Af-Maay and their distinct identity and language isn't a threat to them.


and your belief that it's not mutually intelligeable.
Nobody in Somaliland understands them.We would assume they were speaking Oromo if they spoke to us.



You more or less have your own ethnic regional northern bias.
I am biased for not understanding them? I love the Af-May people as fellow Cushitic brothers and sisters.In fact I am standing up for their language rights! It's not biased to say that a people who I can't understand speaks another language. There is no such of language dialects that aren't mutually intelligible




I remember how you tried to apply a different form of ethnocentric regionalism by trying to insiunuate that Isaaq and Dir was seperate from other Somalis clans in the Hubal thread and used faulty logic to arrive at that and sometimes try to use to do the same T haplogroup even.

Anyways wont argue any further , hope others reading this thread will learn something from the posts. Moos raised a good question for further enquiry.
I was waiting for you to mention my clan lol.You also proved what your ideological position is...you want to propagate the idea that your country of Somalia is a homogenous nation when it isn't. Sorry bud but there are millions of Raxanweyn people who are not Somalis and a million Bantus.

Deftextra
01-31-2021, 07:34 PM
Wether a something classified as a dialect or a language isn't solely political, but there is linguistic and non-linguistic that should be considered. For Af-Benadiri dialect is very mutually intelligeable with Af-Maxaa, don't know if it's a dialect continumum with Af Maxaa it certaintly is not with Af-Maay as the study i linked explained. Meaning their close situation to them does not add to increased intelligeability between Af-Maay and Af-Benadiri-

I think this table will help lend an understanding to how language-dialect relationships are concieved. If you look at Danish and Norwegian they are mutually intelligeable but have seperate cultural history and therefore it's that non-linguistic factor that makes up the deciding difference between them.

42985

Af-Maxaa, Af-Maay and Af-Benadiri however share the same overlapping common cultural history and have varrying degrees of intelligeability between them. Thats why it makes sense to consider them dialects of the same language as opposed to distinct languages.

Yeah, I agree Af-benadiri, as in the one spoken in xamar is very similar to other somali dialects. This is the reason I can understand the other Somali dialects quite well. However, Af-Merka from my experience, can be very different.
https://zenodo.org/record/3367132#.YBcEKej7QUE

drobbah
01-31-2021, 07:36 PM
I am not that knowledgeable about different Somali dialects, But from my personal experience, growing up mostly with the Xamari Somali dialect on my fathers side and my mothers Af-Merka dialect/language, from how I understand languages, they could be more or less be classified as different languages.

Af-Merka has allot of similarities with both northern Somali and af-maay, but has some properties unique to the language. It has a very different morphology for example where you add suffixes and prefixes which change the meaning of a word and is unique to the language, also I have noticed grammatical structure of sentences can also be very different.

I grew up mostly with my fathers the xamar Somali dialect and I sometimes have a hard time understanding my mothers af-Marka dialect/language. Also my cousins who grew up in the diaspora with Af-Merka and have been isolated from standard Somali can barely or not at all understand standard Somali.

My Somali friends would also be very confused when they hear Af-Marka being spoken in my family, because it sounds very alien to most of them. But this might be because they grew up in the diaspora.
From my experiences with Southern Banadir Somali (Mogadishu people mostly) it has been mostly easy to understand.There were key words that I needed to know but the grammar was mostly similar to Northern dialects.I noticed those with the thickest accents and hardest for me to understand online has been your community, with very strange grammar to my ears that remind me of how Oromo migrants in Somaliland speak Somali but with a southern twist.Maybe those Benadiris were speaking Af-Merka

Deftextra
01-31-2021, 08:14 PM
From my experiences with Southern Banadir Somali (Mogadishu people mostly) it has been mostly easy to understand.There were key words that I needed to know but the grammar was mostly similar to Northern dialects.I noticed those with the thickest accents and hardest for me to understand online has been your community, with very strange grammar to my ears that remind me of how Oromo migrants in Somaliland speak Somali but with a southern twist.Maybe those Benadiris were speaking Af-Merka

Yeah, Highly likely they were speaking Af-Merca. Other Somalis can understand the Xamar dialect after a few adjustments quite easily from my experience. However, it is possible that they were actually speaking a different variety of Af-Reer Xamar, since there can be even be variations within the dialect itself.

Mirix
01-31-2021, 08:20 PM
There isn't an opinion, you are right.What constitues a Somali is someone who traces his lineage to a Somali clan and speaks the Somali language.Raxanweyn isn't a Somali clan neither do they speak Somali.The only one with an ideology here is you that wants to continue to Hawiye-Darood oppression of the Raxanweyn.Their language is distinct and I hope one day Somali kacaanist nationalists wake up and realize that Af-Maay and their distinct identity and language isn't a threat to them.

Is this where you ignore everyting i say and qoute me selectively because you have no actual retort and can't let go of your own ideological based thinking?

What constitutes a Somali is simply what the Somali people as a collective define to be one. As far i am aware Raxanweyn are Somali and considered as such. This adds up to the fact they share the same cultural history and religious culture and language and landscape.

They trace themselves to be of the same descent genealogical descent as well to 1 epoch ancestor Hiil. It's self explanatory and this has zero to do with Kacaan revisionism but actual Somali tradition.


Nobody in Somaliland understands them.We would assume they were speaking Oromo if they spoke to us.


How do you know that did you survey every person in Somaliland? Keep your personal incredulities to yourself, only deal with the facts here. Raxanweyn are not Oromo they are Somali.

I was right when i said you have some Northern Somaliland ethnic regionalist bias your trying to fork here , that's why you said this.


I am biased for not understanding them? I love the Af-May people as fellow Cushitic brothers and sisters.In fact I am standing up for their language rights! It's not biased to say that a people who I can't understand speak another language.There is no such of language dialects that aren't mutually intelligible

You are biased because you seek to reduce and limit what constutes a Somali into only Northern Somali. In your own mind you probably think Isaaq and Dir is some stand alone ethnic group itself.

There are language dialects that aren't mutually intelligeable like Cantonese and Mandarin that share tha same cultural history. If you even looked at the table i provided above, spoken by the same Han ethnicity with the same script. but unlike them Af-Maxaa and Af-Maay not only share the same same cultural history but its partially mutually intelligeable and increases in understanding with more you know Standard Somali like the study i showed , you havent even looked at it And you are talking about not being biased.


I was waiting for you to mention my clan lol.You also proved what your ideological position is...you want to propagate the idea that your country of Somalia is a homogenous nation when it isn't. Sorry bud but there are millions of Raxanweyn people who are not Somalis and a million Bantus.

I didn't mention your clan i was referring to this thread here where you tried to make it out to be that Dir and Isaaq had a seperate cultural history and origins than other Somali clans using Hubal or Waaq and tried to use haplgroup T as well as differentiator https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?21905-Was-the-Syrian-God-Hubal-worshipped-by-Northern-Somalis&highlight=hubal

I showed examples how this wasn't the case at all and also that Dir of all groups just retained features of the Archaic pagan Somali culture. It's obvious you trying to force some type ethnic regionalist seperate identity with the North seperate and different from everyone else.

No i don't propagate homogenousnes, did you even read what i have been writing earlier? or should i copy and paste it again?

It's the whole notion of Somalis are the same or homogenous is but in favor of northerner over southerns by Siad Barre that has led people to create a counter of South vs north paradigm . They both fall in the same trap. Whats interesting to point out is that such a notion is not even concieved by Somali people, its made up by colonial writers and later adopted by Somali nationalists. I disagree with all of them.

It's actually you who believes Somalis must be 1 homogenous thing only and any slight difference or varrations among them means someone is a different ethnic group or have different origins. Somalis can be Somali and diverse, varied as we have always been throughout history. Majority Raxanweyn are ethnic Somalis, but bantus are not ethnic. You really are that against Raxanweyn to be considered Somali that you are now comparing them to Bantu? a recent group with a seperate cultural and linguistic and ethnic origins?