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Markos
01-23-2021, 06:16 PM
I have slowly been collecting 23andMe results of Greeks with Peloponnesian ancestry and have found it super strange to see how many of them are given trace amounts of SSA, EA, and SA. To me, this makes no sense whatsoever, but I thought I'd share some examples. These surely can not be taken seriously or literally, but I do not know why the 23andMe algorithm continues to do this for many. Any ideas?

https://i.ibb.co/mNsdSK5/Screen-Shot-2021-01-23-at-1-09-35-PM.png (https://imgbb.com/)
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https://i.ibb.co/rxFZRT6/Screen-Shot-2021-01-23-at-1-09-14-PM.png (https://imgbb.com/)
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https://i.ibb.co/JmrWzTX/Screen-Shot-2021-01-23-at-1-08-48-PM.png (https://imgbb.com/)
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https://i.ibb.co/KcgLxfS/Screen-Shot-2021-01-23-at-1-08-21-PM.png (https://imgbb.com/)
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https://i.ibb.co/8rZQGmm/Screen-Shot-2021-01-23-at-1-08-03-PM.png (https://imgbb.com/)
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https://i.ibb.co/sg9mJQr/Screen-Shot-2021-01-23-at-1-07-35-PM.png (https://imgbb.com/)
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https://i.ibb.co/8skNNxR/Screen-Shot-2021-01-23-at-1-07-14-PM.png (https://imgbb.com/)
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https://i.ibb.co/rbSvqKf/Screen-Shot-2021-01-23-at-1-06-20-PM.png (https://imgbb.com/)
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https://i.ibb.co/b5vKvxz/Screen-Shot-2021-01-23-at-1-05-55-PM.png (https://imgbb.com/)
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https://i.ibb.co/9sY0MkC/Screen-Shot-2021-01-23-at-1-05-27-PM.png (https://imgbb.com/)
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https://i.ibb.co/zJgZFKX/Screen-Shot-2021-01-23-at-1-05-05-PM.png (https://imgbb.com/)
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https://i.ibb.co/xjcGNLJ/Screen-Shot-2021-01-23-at-1-04-41-PM.png (https://imgbb.com/)
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https://i.ibb.co/mDGdmhy/Screen-Shot-2021-01-23-at-1-04-08-PM.png (https://imgbb.com/)
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https://i.ibb.co/KLY42hq/Screen-Shot-2021-01-23-at-1-03-29-PM.png (https://imgbb.com/)
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https://i.ibb.co/bF3MXS6/Screen-Shot-2021-01-23-at-1-02-44-PM.png (https://imgbb.com/)
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https://i.ibb.co/5vFtQPz/Screen-Shot-2021-01-23-at-1-02-23-PM.png (https://imgbb.com/)
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https://i.ibb.co/VD7mKB1/Screen-Shot-2021-01-23-at-1-01-56-PM.png (https://imgbb.com/)
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https://i.ibb.co/t3Svvhg/Screen-Shot-2021-01-23-at-1-01-34-PM.png (https://imgbb.com/)
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https://i.ibb.co/9cRVkGp/Screen-Shot-2021-01-23-at-1-00-59-PM.png (https://imgbb.com/)
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https://i.ibb.co/KhM9Nnm/Screen-Shot-2021-01-23-at-1-00-01-PM.png (https://imgbb.com/)

XXD
01-23-2021, 06:55 PM
I have slowly been collecting 23andMe results of Greeks with Peloponnesian ancestry and have found it super strange to see how many of them are given trace amounts of SSA, EA, and SA. To me, this makes no sense whatsoever, but I thought I'd share some examples. These surely can not be taken seriously or literally, but I do not know why the 23andMe algorithm continues to do this for many. Any ideas?

https://i.ibb.co/mNsdSK5/Screen-Shot-2021-01-23-at-1-09-35-PM.png (https://imgbb.com/)
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https://i.ibb.co/rxFZRT6/Screen-Shot-2021-01-23-at-1-09-14-PM.png (https://imgbb.com/)
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https://i.ibb.co/JmrWzTX/Screen-Shot-2021-01-23-at-1-08-48-PM.png (https://imgbb.com/)
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https://i.ibb.co/KcgLxfS/Screen-Shot-2021-01-23-at-1-08-21-PM.png (https://imgbb.com/)
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https://i.ibb.co/8rZQGmm/Screen-Shot-2021-01-23-at-1-08-03-PM.png (https://imgbb.com/)
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https://i.ibb.co/sg9mJQr/Screen-Shot-2021-01-23-at-1-07-35-PM.png (https://imgbb.com/)
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https://i.ibb.co/8skNNxR/Screen-Shot-2021-01-23-at-1-07-14-PM.png (https://imgbb.com/)
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https://i.ibb.co/rbSvqKf/Screen-Shot-2021-01-23-at-1-06-20-PM.png (https://imgbb.com/)
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https://i.ibb.co/b5vKvxz/Screen-Shot-2021-01-23-at-1-05-55-PM.png (https://imgbb.com/)
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https://i.ibb.co/9sY0MkC/Screen-Shot-2021-01-23-at-1-05-27-PM.png (https://imgbb.com/)
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https://i.ibb.co/zJgZFKX/Screen-Shot-2021-01-23-at-1-05-05-PM.png (https://imgbb.com/)
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https://i.ibb.co/xjcGNLJ/Screen-Shot-2021-01-23-at-1-04-41-PM.png (https://imgbb.com/)
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https://i.ibb.co/mDGdmhy/Screen-Shot-2021-01-23-at-1-04-08-PM.png (https://imgbb.com/)
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https://i.ibb.co/KLY42hq/Screen-Shot-2021-01-23-at-1-03-29-PM.png (https://imgbb.com/)
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https://i.ibb.co/bF3MXS6/Screen-Shot-2021-01-23-at-1-02-44-PM.png (https://imgbb.com/)
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https://i.ibb.co/5vFtQPz/Screen-Shot-2021-01-23-at-1-02-23-PM.png (https://imgbb.com/)
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https://i.ibb.co/VD7mKB1/Screen-Shot-2021-01-23-at-1-01-56-PM.png (https://imgbb.com/)
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https://i.ibb.co/t3Svvhg/Screen-Shot-2021-01-23-at-1-01-34-PM.png (https://imgbb.com/)
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https://i.ibb.co/9cRVkGp/Screen-Shot-2021-01-23-at-1-00-59-PM.png (https://imgbb.com/)
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https://i.ibb.co/KhM9Nnm/Screen-Shot-2021-01-23-at-1-00-01-PM.png (https://imgbb.com/)

See, I told you most Peloponnesians Ive seen have low SA ancestry. I'm not sure why these results would not be real. Romani people are very endogamous, but many would have assimilated in sedentary Greek populations in the last 1100 years. Such intermarriages are even mentioned in literature e.g. Karagatsis.

This is especially true for Arcadia, where up to 3% Y chromosomes belong to haplogroup H.

So low level admixture definitely did happen.

Markos
01-23-2021, 08:45 PM
See, I told you most Peloponnesians Ive seen have low SA ancestry. I'm not sure why these results would not be real. Romani people are very endogamous, but many would have assimilated in sedentary Greek populations in the last 1100 years. Such intermarriages are even mentioned in literature e.g. Karagatsis.

This is especially true for Arcadia, where up to 3% Y chromosomes belong to haplogroup H.

So low level admixture definitely did happen.

I don't think it's likely or else this would be well-known information and not something found out suddenly by 23andMe trace ancestry, which literally changes for most people every update. Doesn't make sense!

XXD
01-24-2021, 10:12 PM
I don't think it's likely or else this would be well-known information and not something found out suddenly by 23andMe trace ancestry, which literally changes for most people every update. Doesn't make sense!

Who knows, to be honest. However, as you have seen, I score 0.2% SA in 23andme and I really DO have full Romani matches on 23andme. When I ran the Sahr i Soktha sample as a proxy for SA ancestry, many Peloponnesians score about 0.1 to 3% of this ancestry.

Yes, sure, it could be because of the West Asian ancestry that exists in both Greeks and Romani. However, when you have 3% of the Arcadian population carrying Romany Y chromosomes, it is evident that low level admixture did happen. This also explains why more than 35% of all the G25 modern Greek samples have 0.2% to 3% Shahr i Sokhta/Kanjar/Paniya/Gupta admixture (roughly same percentages no matter what group one uses).

Markos
01-25-2021, 03:05 AM
Who knows, to be honest. However, as you have seen, I score 0.2% SA in 23andme and I really DO have full Romani matches on 23andme. When I ran the Sahr i Soktha sample as a proxy for SA ancestry, many Peloponnesians score about 0.1 to 3% of this ancestry.

Yes, sure, it could be because of the West Asian ancestry that exists in both Greeks and Romani. However, when you have 3% of the Arcadian population carrying Romany Y chromosomes, it is evident that low level admixture did happen. This also explains why more than 35% of all the G25 modern Greek samples have 0.2% to 3% Shahr i Sokhta/Kanjar/Paniya/Gupta admixture (roughly same percentages no matter what group one uses).

I'm not buying it, lol. I totally get what you're saying but I just know these results will change in the next update for most people. There's got to be a better explanation.

Johnny ola
01-25-2021, 03:13 AM
It is not only the Peloponnese samples.Many other Greek samples in G25 showing exotic components.Even the Cretan samples,some of them require something North African in their modelings.

Btw this Laconian sample is coming like this.I am not sure if some of the samples are low-res or some kind of bad quality.



Target: Greek_Laconia:638
Distance: 2.3220% / 0.02322050
93.0 Greek_Laconia
3.2 Sardinian
2.0 Colla
1.8 Montenegrin



Target: Greek_Laconia:638
Distance: 2.0676% / 0.02067645
15.8 DEU_MA_o
10.8 UKR_Srubnaya_MLBA
10.0 UKR_Trypillia
9.8 TUR_Isparta_EBA
9.4 VK2020_RUS_Pskov_VA
9.0 TUR_Tell_Kurdu_EC
6.6 AZE_Caucasus_lowlands_LC
6.4 GRC_N
5.6 Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kalavan
4.2 DEU_LBK_UW
3.6 UKR_Chernyakhiv_Shyshaky
3.4 USA_colonial_period
2.4 CHL_Fuego_Patagonian
1.6 TUR_Kumtepe_N_low_res
1.4 Levant_PPNC

Sorcelow
01-25-2021, 04:08 AM
There is no meaningful or substantial "exotic" ancestry in the Peloponnese. Those figures are all noise.

Markos
01-25-2021, 04:14 AM
There is no meaningful or substantial "exotic" ancestry in the Peloponnese. Those figures are all noise.

That is the most realistic conclusion, in my opinion. Though, I don't know how to 'justify' the noise components either.

Markos
01-25-2021, 04:16 AM
It is not only the Peloponnese samples.Many other Greek samples in G25 showing exotic components.Even the Cretan samples,some of them require something North African in their modelings.

Btw this Laconian sample is coming like this.I am not sure if some of the samples are low-res or some kind of bad quality.



Target: Greek_Laconia:638
Distance: 2.3220% / 0.02322050
93.0 Greek_Laconia
3.2 Sardinian
2.0 Colla
1.8 Montenegrin



Target: Greek_Laconia:638
Distance: 2.0676% / 0.02067645
15.8 DEU_MA_o
10.8 UKR_Srubnaya_MLBA
10.0 UKR_Trypillia
9.8 TUR_Isparta_EBA
9.4 VK2020_RUS_Pskov_VA
9.0 TUR_Tell_Kurdu_EC
6.6 AZE_Caucasus_lowlands_LC
6.4 GRC_N
5.6 Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kalavan
4.2 DEU_LBK_UW
3.6 UKR_Chernyakhiv_Shyshaky
3.4 USA_colonial_period
2.4 CHL_Fuego_Patagonian
1.6 TUR_Kumtepe_N_low_res
1.4 Levant_PPNC

Just looks like calculator garbage to me. There's no other logical explanation that I've heard/seen so far.

DFSTFD
01-25-2021, 09:17 AM
Individuals might very well have some kind of recent, exotic ancestry at very low levels that shows up that might have come via admixture with populations admixed with populations admixed with populations(...) or maybe be expressing more ancient/diffused streams of ancestry more strongly than others due to random inheritance over generations but at 0.X%, I'm not sure how reliably we can say anything either with only this kind of method (the categories in something like 23andme are a different matter, likely even worse especially when splitting closely related populations into groups and depends on the samples they use to create the categories, so extra issues). It might be just adding tiny amounts of things that aren't really there because the more appropriate sources haven't been used while trying to model them etc. That's probably more likely with individuals (and distances of the resulting model are generally greater for them) than with populations.

I think a comparison with surrounding populations might be instructive too, e.g. if the geographic pattern that emerges is a bit odd compared to what we might expect, or a look within populations e.g. does that kind of ancestry pop up consistently or just among a few of the samples. For example, in G25, if you include Yoruba in a generally ultimate-source appropriate model, it consistently pops up among the Andalusians in G25 (except only 1) at low levels while it shows up in a small minority of Cretans. Or if you include Nganassan, only a couple of Irish out of 85 get it (or a similarly low number of the much more eastern Poles for that matter) but half of Estonians do at low levels, which probably makes it more likely that something is there.

XXD
01-25-2021, 09:40 AM
It is not only the Peloponnese samples.Many other Greek samples in G25 showing exotic components.Even the Cretan samples,some of them require something North African in their modelings.


I am definitely new to modelling, but for historical and genetic reasons, I really do not see why one would interpret low level "exotic" admixture as something artefactual. Let me analyse each type separately:

1) Low level North African admixture: It is by far more frequent in Crete, and in the highest percentage (up to 3%). This makes historical sense, as the Arabs who conquered Crete were overwhelmingly Al Andalus from the Iberian peninsula. Subsequent, known migrations of Cretans to the Peloponnese may result in a few Peloponnesians scoring some very low percentages of NA.
You can read more about Al Andalus Crete here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emirate_of_Crete

2) South Asian ancestry: Already mentioned previously. Nobody denies that 3% of Arcadians and 2% of Laconians have the South Asian Y DNA haplogroup H (although the percentage may get higher or lower with more samples). Tosk Albanians score similar percentages (2.5%). https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2Fs00414-010-0432-x

It is evident from Y haplogroups that Roma to Greek admixture definitely did happen occasionally, as it has happened nearly everywhere in the Balkans. You cannot refute that, so I am not sure why such ancestry should be interpreted as noise by default.

Out marrying is not unheard of even in the most endogamous groups. Many forum members have Italqim ancestry, Johny Ola has Mesopotamian (?) Jewish admixture, some Iberian members have some Gitano ancestry, etc. I don't see why Greeks should be exceptional.

I have some full Romani matches on 23andme, and at least in my case, this admix seems to be real.

3) Low level East Asian ancestry: To me, this seems the least curious. Almost all South Slavic populations have very low level East Asian admixture, and it is almost certain that early medieval Slavs/Goths/Avars brought this ancestry to the Balkans. Usually we are talking about less than 1% in Greeks and Albanians. Two of my top 5 GEDMATCH matches are Chinese, and I only score about 1% of such ancestry in most models.

What is also very interesting is that Messinia has the highest percentage of Y haplogroup Q in all of Greece, that is 3.1%. (see this post: https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?20243-Y-DNA-of-the-Peloponnese/page5). While this could be the result of more recent founder effects or Turkish admixture, I think it is not coincidental that Messinia was the stronghold of the Avars in the 6th century, and even the name of the Navarino castle in Pylos might be named after them:https://el.wikipedia.org/wiki/%CE%A0%CE%B1%CE%BB%CE%B1%CE%B9%CF%8C%CE%BA%CE%B1%C F%83%CF%84%CF%81%CE%BF_%CE%9D%CE%B1%CF%85%CE%B1%CF %81%CE%AF%CE%BD%CE%BF%CF%85

4) SSA admixture: Again, nothing strange here. Most Mediterranean populations harbour some low level admixture from SSA populations, as has been shown by numerous studies, e.g. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3080861/


So, overall, I don't see why low level "exotic" ancestry should come as such a great surprise. I am sure that it is noise in many individuals, but perhaps for many others (or most) it definitely isn't.

If you disagree, I would be interested to see how you interpret points 1 to 4 that I mentioned above. Having this exotic ancestry in no way departs from what would be expected based on our history and geographical position.

Myself, being a "mutt" from the entirety of the Greek world, score about 1% of all these ancestries in G25, all of the various calculators posted in AG, my GEDMATCH/23andme matches, and David traced these ancestries when he sent me my G25 coords.

I know that Greeks may have some stigma about some of these ancestries (especially the Romani one), but we are here to investigate the truth, to the greatest degree possible, right?

Johnny ola
01-25-2021, 10:15 AM
I am definitely new to modelling, but for historical and genetic reasons, I really do not see why one would interpret low level "exotic" admixture as something artefactual. Let me analyse each type separately:

1) Low level North African admixture: It is by far more frequent in Crete, and in the highest percentage (up to 3%). This makes historical sense, as the Arabs who conquered Crete were overwhelmingly Al Andalus from the Iberian peninsula. Subsequent, known migrations of Cretans to the Peloponnese may result in a few Peloponnesians scoring some very low percentages of NA.
You can read more about Al Andalus Crete here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emirate_of_Crete

2) South Asian ancestry: Already mentioned previously. Nobody denies that 3% of Arcadians and 2% of Laconians have the South Asian Y DNA haplogroup H (although the percentage may get higher or lower with more samples). Tosk Albanians score similar percentages (2.5%). https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2Fs00414-010-0432-x

It is evident from Y haplogroups that Roma to Greek admixture definitely did happen occasionally, as it has happened nearly everywhere in the Balkans. You cannot refute that, so I am not sure why such ancestry should be interpreted as noise by default.

Out marrying is not unheard of even in the most endogamous groups. Many forum members have Italqim ancestry, Johny Ola has Mesopotamian (?) Jewish admixture, some Iberian members have some Gitano ancestry, etc. I don't see why Greeks should be exceptional.

I have some full Romani matches on 23andme, and at least in my case, this admix seems to be real.

3) Low level East Asian ancestry: To me, this seems the least curious. Almost all South Slavic populations have very low level East Asian admixture, and it is almost certain that early medieval Slavs/Goths/Avars brought this ancestry to the Balkans. Usually we are talking about less than 1% in Greeks and Albanians. Two of my top 5 GEDMATCH matches are Chinese, and I only score about 1% of such ancestry in most models.

What is also very interesting is that Messinia has the highest percentage of Y haplogroup Q in all of Greece, that is 3.1%. (see this post: https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?20243-Y-DNA-of-the-Peloponnese/page5). While this could be the result of more recent founder effects or Turkish admixture, I think it is not coincidental that Messinia was the stronghold of the Avars in the 6th century, and even the name of the Navarino castle in Pylos might be named after them:https://el.wikipedia.org/wiki/%CE%A0%CE%B1%CE%BB%CE%B1%CE%B9%CF%8C%CE%BA%CE%B1%C F%83%CF%84%CF%81%CE%BF_%CE%9D%CE%B1%CF%85%CE%B1%CF %81%CE%AF%CE%BD%CE%BF%CF%85

4) SSA admixture: Again, nothing strange here. Most Mediterranean populations harbour some low level admixture from SSA populations, as has been shown by numerous studies, e.g. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3080861/


So, overall, I don't see why low level "exotic" ancestry should come as such a great surprise. I am sure that it is noise in many individuals, but perhaps for many others (or most) it definitely isn't.

If you disagree, I would be interested to see how you interpret points 1 to 4 that I mentioned above. Having this exotic ancestry in no way departs from what would be expected based on our history and geographical position.

Myself, being a "mutt" from the entirety of the Greek world, score about 1% of all these ancestries in G25, all of the various calculators posted in AG, my GEDMATCH/23andme matches, and David traced these ancestries when he sent me my G25 coords.

I know that Greeks may have some stigma about some of these ancestries (especially the Romani one), but we are here to investigate the truth, to the greatest degree possible, right?

No, i dont disagree with What you saying.2 of the Trabzon samples score east eurasian as Well(thought Some people saying they are muslim Pontians) .I just wondering If these limited weird admixtures exist for real or Some type of low res/bad quality samples but as you mention many people Even From here...
actually can score Some of these exotic admixtures. I agree about the North African among Cretans. Its prolly assilimated Moors or something.Some of the samples showing Even Some SSA. About the South Asian you Are prolly right about Romani admixture(taking serious ydna). Also, Some samples showing east eurasian especially among Greek Macedonians. If you model all the samples you will see some of them have limited(1-2%) east Asian. Like you said, maybe Avars or Slavo-Avars left such admixture among mainland Greeks. But anyway, these exotic admixtures are Not more than 1-2-3% In my modelings.

lacreme
01-25-2021, 11:27 AM
I am definitely new to modelling, but for historical and genetic reasons, I really do not see why one would interpret low level "exotic" admixture as something artefactual. Let me analyse each type separately:


3) Low level East Asian ancestry: To me, this seems the least curious. Almost all South Slavic populations have very low level East Asian admixture, and it is almost certain that early medieval Slavs/Goths/Avars brought this ancestry to the Balkans. Usually we are talking about less than 1% in Greeks and Albanians. Two of my top 5 GEDMATCH matches are Chinese, and I only score about 1% of such ancestry in most models.



Don't you have partial Azov/Crimean Greek ancestry ? I think I recall such mention in a previous post of yours. In this case wouldn't be more plausible for your trace East Asian ancestry to be from Crimean Tatars rather than whatever amounts Slavs have ? I don't know much about the history of the euarasian steppes but for having at least 2 Chinese matches on top of your list *for me* it sounds more logical to be from populations like them that could be found (and still are) as far as the river Yenisei and outer Mongolia and arrived relatively late in this specific part of Europe.

XXD
01-25-2021, 12:42 PM
No, i dont disagree with What you saying.2 of the Trabzon samples score east eurasian as Well(thought Some people saying they are muslim Pontians) .I just wondering If these limited weird admixtures exist for real or Some type of low res/bad quality samples but as you mention many people Even From here...
actually can score Some of these exotic admixtures. I agree about the North African among Cretans. Its prolly assilimated Moors or something.Some of the samples showing Even Some SSA. About the South Asian you Are prolly right about Romani admixture(taking serious ydna). Also, Some samples showing east eurasian especially among Greek Macedonians. If you model all the samples you will see some of them have limited(1-2%) east Asian. Like you said, maybe Avars or Slavo-Avars left such admixture among mainland Greeks. But anyway, these exotic admixtures are Not more than 1-2-3% In my modelings.

I completely agree with everything you say!

XXD
01-25-2021, 12:44 PM
Don't you have partial Azov/Crimean Greek ancestry ? I think I recall such mention in a previous post of yours. In this case wouldn't be more plausible for your trace East Asian ancestry to be from Crimean Tatars rather than whatever amounts Slavs have ? I don't know much about the history of the euarasian steppes but for having at least 2 Chinese matches on top of your list *for me* it sounds more logical to be from populations like them that could be found (and still are) as far as the river Yenisei and outer Mongolia and arrived relatively late in this specific part of Europe.

Yes you are right. I have an Urum great great grandmother and in modern population comparison I always score about 3% Tatar, which sounds about right.

I just did not include myself as an example of the East Asian ancestry in most Greeks because mine is a very rare example. In most other Greeks, the Slavs and Avars are the likeliest sources of East Asian ancestry. Maybe even the Bulgars in Macedonia.

Johnny ola
01-25-2021, 01:39 PM
Well, i am about to post some of the samples that looking to me a little bit exotic and weird.Others can mention their thoughts,no problem for me.

Pelopponese samples:



Target: Greek_Peloponnese:635
Distance: 2.4798% / 0.02479791
16.8 Italian_Lazio
15.2 Greek_Peloponnese
14.0 Sorb_Niederlausitz
13.8 Syrian_Jew
9.0 Greek_Central_Anatolia
9.0 Moroccan_Jew
8.8 Greek_Thessaly
4.6 Yemenite_Jew
4.0 Sardinian
2.6 Mozabite
1.6 Yoruba
0.4 Papuan
0.2 Fulani



Target: Greek_Peloponnese:632
Distance: 2.5651% / 0.02565072
57.6 Greek_Macedonia
20.4 Samaritan
10.6 Italian_Lombardy
5.6 Sardinian
4.2 Russian_Smolensk
1.0 Mbuti
0.6 Nganassan



Target: Greek_Peloponnese:631
Distance: 2.1461% / 0.02146139
59.0 Albanian
11.6 Greek_Cappadocia
10.6 Greek_Macedonia
9.0 Greek_Peloponnese
6.4 Greek_Izmir
1.2 Sardinian
1.2 Yemenite_Jew
1.0 Esan_Nigeria



Target: Greek_Peloponnese:630
Distance: 2.3131% / 0.02313111
50.8 Greek_Macedonia
16.8 Italian_Lazio
11.6 Sardinian
9.6 Greek_Central_Anatolia
9.0 Albanian
1.2 Koinanbe
1.0 Greek_Thessaly



Target: Greek_Peloponnese:629
Distance: 1.7218% / 0.01721797
57.0 Greek_Peloponnese
20.4 Greek_Izmir
7.6 Macedonian
4.8 Cossack_Ukrainian
3.2 Greek_Central_Anatolia
2.2 Sardinian
2.0 Ket
1.6 Georgian_Laz
1.2 Bosnian



Target: Greek_Peloponnese:624
Distance: 2.7982% / 0.02798219
49.4 Greek_Laconia
18.6 Slovakian
15.2 Palestinian_Beit_Sahour
8.6 Spanish_Soria
3.8 Saudi
3.4 Cossack_Kuban
1.0 Papuan



Target: Greek_Peloponnese:623
Distance: 1.5816% / 0.01581566
34.0 Greek_Laconia
14.0 Macedonian
10.8 Greek_Peloponnese
10.8 Sardinian
10.6 Rumelia_East
7.6 Abkhasian
4.4 French_Seine-Maritime
2.2 Armenian_Hemsheni
2.2 Italian_Lombardy
2.0 Greek_Thessaly
1.2 Ket
0.2 Greek_Cappadocia


Target: Greek_Peloponnese:619
Distance: 2.2942% / 0.02294223
69.0 Greek_Macedonia
15.2 Greek_Thessaly
7.6 Samaritan
4.2 Sicilian_East
1.4 Sardinian
1.2 Biaka
1.2 Italian_Liguria
0.2 Nganassan

Johnny ola
01-25-2021, 01:42 PM
Greek Thessaly and Greek Laconia.2 of them have North African like admix.The last one seems very strange and scores something Native American(no idea how accurate it can be).


Target: Greek_Thessaly:GreeceNE144
Distance: 1.4266% / 0.01426601
47.8 Greek_Thessaly
20.6 Italian_Lombardy
10.8 Greek_Macedonia
6.6 Italian_Liguria
5.0 Georgian_Imer
3.2 Russian_Smolensk
2.6 Karaite_Egypt
1.6 Tunisian_Berber_Zraoua
1.2 Sicilian_East
0.4 Spanish_Asturias
0.2 Ket



Target: Greek_Laconia:639
Distance: 0.8293% / 0.00829260
47.8 Greek_Laconia
10.4 Sardinian
7.8 Cypriot
7.4 Italian_Bergamo
4.6 Rumelia_East
4.0 Italian_Jew
3.8 Berber_Tunisia_Chen
3.4 Cossack_Kuban
3.2 Yemenite_Ma'rib
2.8 Italian_Lazio
2.4 Lebanese_Christian
2.0 Greek_Trabzon
0.4 Mbuti



Target: Greek_Laconia:638
Distance: 2.3220% / 0.02322050
93.0 Greek_Laconia
3.2 Sardinian
2.0 Colla
1.8 Montenegrin

Markos
01-25-2021, 01:47 PM
Super skeptical. Looks like over fitting. Most if not all of these people will show no evidence of foreign ancestry through GEDMatch components is another reason to be skeptical.

Johnny ola
01-25-2021, 01:49 PM
Greek Izmir.Greek Trabzon and Greek Cappadocia.Some of them showing East Eurasian admix, others can even shown South Asian mix....and some of them North African like admix.



Target: Greek_Izmir:GreeceF28k
Distance: 1.4728% / 0.01472786
22.2 Greek_Laconia
19.0 Greek_Central_Anatolia
16.8 Sardinian
16.0 Slovakian
15.2 Greek_Peloponnese
9.2 Rumelia_East
1.2 Ket
0.4 Surui



Target: Greek_Trabzon:G25010
Distance: 2.1802% / 0.02180231
68.6 Armenian_Hemsheni
14.4 Greek_Trabzon
9.6 Palestinian_Beit_Sahour
5.6 Sardinian
1.8 Madiga



Target: Greek_Trabzon:G25008
Distance: 0.6781% / 0.00678140
49.0 Greek_Trabzon
36.2 Turkish_Trabzon
6.4 Greek_Izmir
3.4 Italian_Calabria
1.6 Nivkh
1.2 Pulliyar
1.0 Wichi
0.6 Albanian
0.4 Sardinian
0.2 Koinanbe


Target: Greek_Central_Anatolia:G2503
Distance: 1.3501% / 0.01350133
79.0 Greek_Central_Anatolia
9.4 Turkish_Trabzon
8.4 Rumelia_East
2.6 Berber_Tunisia_Chen
0.4 Nganassan
0.2 Papuan



Target: Greek_Central_Anatolia:G2502
Distance: 1.5153% / 0.01515344
87.2 Greek_Central_Anatolia
4.8 Spanish_La_Rioja
4.4 Palestinian_Beit_Sahour
2.0 Turkish_Trabzon
1.2 Pulliyar
0.2 Gupta
0.2 Papuan


Target: Greek_Cappadocia:662
Distance: 1.2922% / 0.01292187
77.6 Greek_Cappadocia
11.6 Samaritan
5.6 Greek_Macedonia
4.0 Armenian_Hemsheni
1.2 Nganassan



Target: Greek_Cappadocia:660
Distance: 1.7928% / 0.01792797
35.2 Greek_Cappadocia
29.6 Greek_Trabzon
24.0 Cypriot
6.0 Yemenite_Jew
2.8 Samaritan
1.6 Shor_Khakassia
0.4 Mongolian
0.4 Papuan



Target: Greek_Cappadocia:657
Distance: 1.8202% / 0.01820196
41.6 Greek_Cappadocia
24.0 Turkish_Trabzon
11.8 Iraqi_Jew
10.6 Sardinian
4.0 Lithuanian_SZ
1.6 Brahui
1.4 Georgian_Jew
1.4 Mari
1.4 Palestinian_Beit_Sahour
1.2 Kurumba
1.0 Mountain_Jew



Target: Greek_Cappadocia:654
Distance: 1.7174% / 0.01717363
60.6 Greek_Cappadocia
16.6 Samaritan
13.2 Iranian_Jew
6.0 Sardinian
2.2 Yemenite_Jew
1.4 Uttar_Pradesh

Markos
01-25-2021, 01:53 PM
I have noticed Greek-Anatolian and South-Asian populations can be mixed up in G25. I don't know why. But for example, my father is often shown as something like 25% Cappadocian Greek (myself less than that, of course). Only when removing the Greek-Anatolian sample do the samples spread more accurately between Greek and Romani.

So, I'm not buying most of this.

Johnny ola
01-25-2021, 01:55 PM
Greek Macedonia.Mostly South Asian and East Eurasian mix.



Target: Greek_Central_Macedonia:GREEKGRALPOP5
Distance: 1.8482% / 0.01848199
68.2 Albanian
20.8 Greek_Central_Macedonia
5.2 Greek_Laconia
4.0 Turkish_Trabzon
1.2 Khonda_Dora
0.6 Sardinian



Target: Greek_Central_Macedonia:GREEKGRALPOP3
Distance: 1.7365% / 0.01736516
42.2 Macedonian
26.2 Greek_Laconia
8.0 Sardinian
6.0 Russian_Voronez
5.0 Greek_Central_Macedonia
4.4 Greek_Central_Anatolia
3.8 Yemenite_Mahra
2.2 Greek_Macedonia
1.2 Sakha
1.0 BedouinB



Target: Greek_Central_Macedonia:GREEKGRALPOP12
Distance: 2.1001% / 0.02100080
55.0 Greek_Central_Macedonia
19.4 Greek_Cappadocia
10.0 Macedonian
9.6 Lithuanian_SZ
1.4 Ket
1.0 Georgian_Laz
1.0 Palestinian_Beit_Sahour
0.8 Bulgarian
0.8 Greenlander_East
0.8 Samaritan
0.2 Huichol



Target: Greek_Central_Macedonia:GREEKGRALPOP10
Distance: 1.8240% / 0.01823997
48.6 Albanian
30.2 Greek_Izmir
9.2 Georgian_Laz
8.8 Cossack_Kuban
1.4 Sorb_Niederlausitz
1.0 Somali
0.8 Pulliyar



Target: Greek_Central_Macedonia:GreeceNE59
Distance: 1.9798% / 0.01979785
64.0 Macedonian
13.8 Samaritan
9.0 Moroccan_Jew
4.8 Norwegian
3.2 Cossack_Ukrainian
2.2 Greek_Laconia
1.6 Jatt_Pathak
0.6 Sardinian
0.4 Kosipe
0.2 Greek_Thessaly
0.2 Rumelia_East


Target: Greek_Macedonia:689
Distance: 2.1774% / 0.02177398
55.4 Greek_Macedonia
19.0 Sardinian
15.6 Macedonian
6.4 Lithuanian_VZ
3.6 Gupta




Target: Greek_Macedonia:688
Distance: 1.4007% / 0.01400692
33.4 Greek_Macedonia
24.4 Slovenian
22.2 Greek_Trabzon
6.8 Iraqi_Jew
6.0 Sardinian
3.0 Mari
2.6 Albanian
0.8 Even
0.4 Gupta
0.4 Koinanbe



Target: Greek_Macedonia:687
Distance: 2.6235% / 0.02623539
33.2 Bosnian
16.6 Greek_Central_Anatolia
15.2 Greek_Macedonia
9.4 Iraqi_Jew
9.0 Macedonian
6.8 Sardinian
5.2 French_Paris
3.4 Balochi
0.8 Gupta
0.4 Papuan



Target: Greek_Macedonia:685
Distance: 2.3435% / 0.02343458
73.8 Greek_Macedonia
11.2 Samaritan
7.0 Lithuanian_VZ
3.8 Sardinian
2.4 Berber_Tunisia_Chen
1.4 Sorb_Niederlausitz
0.4 Surui



Target: Greek_Macedonia:684
Distance: 1.7039% / 0.01703898
53.0 Greek_Macedonia
16.4 Macedonian
8.2 Greek_Dodecanese
4.6 Greek_Central_Macedonia
4.4 Georgian_Laz
4.2 Sardinian
3.8 Greek_Central_Anatolia
2.8 Greek_Peloponnese
2.0 Ket
0.6 Ju_hoan_North



Target: Greek_Macedonia:679
Distance: 2.3508% / 0.02350826
49.6 Macedonian
20.4 Albanian
10.4 Sardinian
9.0 Greek_Cappadocia
8.6 Greek_Laconia
1.2 Pulliyar
0.8 Khonda_Dora



Target: Greek_Macedonia:676
Distance: 2.3421% / 0.02342053
49.8 Greek_Izmir
19.4 Montenegrin
18.4 Slovakian
6.0 Greek_Laconia
4.2 Rumelia_East
1.0 Pulliyar
0.8 Greek_Central_Macedonia
0.2 Madiga
0.2 Sardinian

Johnny ola
01-25-2021, 02:00 PM
Greek islanders.

Target: Ikaria/Samos
Distance: 2.2701% / 0.02270133
29.8 Greek_Macedonia
17.4 Greek_Trabzon
14.2 Samaritan
13.4 Sardinian
10.2 Karaite_Egypt
6.4 Sicilian_East
3.6 Greek_Cappadocia
2.6 Italian_Lombardy
2.4 Gupta



Target: Greek_Dodecanese:673
Distance: 1.4802% / 0.01480164
29.6 Armenian_Hemsheni
21.6 Greek_Dodecanese
16.4 Sardinian
9.6 Albanian
9.4 Greek_Central_Macedonia
9.4 Macedonian
2.6 Kanjar
1.2 Ket
0.2 Ju_hoan_North



Target: Greek_Dodecanese:672
Distance: 2.0650% / 0.02064982
45.2 Greek_Central_Anatolia
32.2 Greek_Dodecanese
9.8 Palestinian_Beit_Sahour
8.6 Sardinian
1.8 Tunisian_Jew
1.4 Cypriot
1.0 Ju_hoan_North



Target: Greek_Dodecanese:670
Distance: 1.9460% / 0.01945952
33.0 Iraqi_Jew
18.8 Greek_Laconia
18.4 Greek_Central_Anatolia
10.6 Sardinian
6.0 Greek_Macedonia
6.0 Sicilian_East
4.6 French_Seine-Maritime
1.4 Brahmin_Uttar_Pradesh
0.8 Khonda_Dora
0.4 Surui



Target: Greek_Dodecanese:664
Distance: 1.2745% / 0.01274482
26.6 Turkish_Trabzon
25.2 Greek_Dodecanese
18.8 Sardinian
10.4 Lebanese_Christian
7.2 Rumelia_East
6.4 Mountain_Jew
3.6 Palestinian_Beit_Sahour
1.0 Mari
0.4 Ju_hoan_North
0.4 Kosipe

XXD
01-25-2021, 02:11 PM
I would stick to using ancient/Medieval samples, and far fewer groups. The exotic ancestry should still be there, if you use Mar Taforalt, Shahr i Sokhta, Yoruba and some Han like sample. The percentages will change a little bit depending on the groups you use, but they will still be there.

Do not use Hajji Firuz and Sehn Gabi. They are very mixed and tend to consume most of the Levant/Caucasus/Romani/North African ancestry.

I don't see any reason to be super sceptical, given Johny's and my posts on the topic.

Johnny ola
01-25-2021, 02:15 PM
Crete.


Target: Greek_Crete:Crete8
Distance: 1.2416% / 0.01241593
25.6 Greek_Cappadocia
19.8 Greek_Kos
16.2 Sardinian
16.0 Serbian
11.6 Greek_Izmir
5.8 Georgian_Imer
1.4 Georgian_Laz
1.4 Yemenite_Jew
1.0 Cameroon_Bakoko
0.8 Koinanbe
0.4 Mbuti



Target: Greek_Crete:Crete5
Distance: 2.1329% / 0.02132908
32.4 Greek_Macedonia
26.2 Greek_Cappadocia
15.8 Samaritan
9.4 Italian_Liguria
8.6 Iraqi_Jew
6.4 Sardinian
1.2 Dinka



Target: Greek_Crete:Crete4
Distance: 1.1842% / 0.01184237
24.2 Iraqi_Jew
18.4 Rumelia_East
14.8 Greek_Central_Macedonia
13.8 Palestinian_Beit_Sahour
12.8 Greek_Izmir
3.6 Sardinian
2.4 Berber_Tunisia_Chen
2.4 Greek_Kos
2.2 Macedonian
2.2 Turkish_Trabzon
1.2 Brahui
1.0 Mountain_Jew
0.6 Mari
0.4 Sorb_Niederlausitz



Target: Greek_Crete:813
Distance: 2.0012% / 0.02001216
29.0 Greek_Laconia
23.2 Iraqi_Jew
14.6 Albanian
10.2 Turkish_Trabzon
9.4 Sardinian
5.0 Macedonian
2.8 Greek_Dodecanese
1.8 Greek_Peloponnese
1.8 Mari
0.8 Khonda_Dora
0.6 Gupta
0.4 Italian_Bergamo
0.4 Sorb_Niederlausitz



Target: Greek_Crete:811
Distance: 2.2120% / 0.02211984
40.0 Greek_Thessaly
26.6 Greek_Dodecanese
15.4 Turkish_Trabzon
5.0 Yemenite_Jew
3.8 Bosnian
3.0 Palestinian_Beit_Sahour
2.4 Cypriot
2.2 Gupta
1.4 Berber_Tunisia_Chen
0.2 Kubachinian



Target: Greek_Crete:808
Distance: 1.3795% / 0.01379454
22.4 Italian_Bergamo
19.8 Rumelia_East
11.8 Greek_Laconia
7.8 Sephardic_Jew
7.4 Turkish_Trabzon
5.6 Sicilian_East
5.0 Samaritan
4.8 Italian_Molise
4.2 Greek_Trabzon
2.6 Sardinian
2.2 Lebanese_Christian
2.2 Yemenite_Ma'rib
2.0 Nganassan
1.2 Greek_Central_Anatolia
0.6 Mari
0.4 Biaka



Target: Greek_Crete:804
Distance: 2.0631% / 0.02063128
29.6 Greek_Central_Anatolia
16.6 Greek_Macedonia
11.2 Macedonian
10.6 Samaritan
10.4 Syrian_Jew
10.2 Sorb_Niederlausitz
5.6 Berber_Tunisia_Chen
5.2 Greek_Peloponnese
0.2 Fulani
0.2 Mozabite
0.2 Yakut



Target: Greek_Crete:803
Distance: 1.3425% / 0.01342522
29.4 Greek_Laconia
27.8 Greek_Izmir
20.6 Palestinian_Beit_Sahour
6.2 Armenian
5.8 Macedonian
5.2 Cossack_Kuban
3.8 Yemenite_Al_Jawf
1.2 Han_Shanghai



Target: Greek_Crete:802
Distance: 2.4932% / 0.02493166
34.6 Greek_Izmir
34.0 Greek_Laconia
15.6 Palestinian_Beit_Sahour
9.2 Georgian_Laz
2.0 Berber_MAR_TIZ
1.6 Mari
1.2 Mansi
1.2 Sardinian
0.6 Papuan



Target: Greek_Crete:800
Distance: 1.5828% / 0.01582760
40.0 Greek_Laconia
17.8 Albanian
17.8 Greek_Central_Anatolia
9.2 Iraqi_Jew
4.6 Armenian
3.6 Greek_Cappadocia
2.6 Macedonian
2.0 Pulliyar
1.6 Mari
0.4 Somali
0.4 Yemenite_Al_Jawf




Target: Greek_Crete:799
Distance: 2.4899% / 0.02489858
44.0 Italian_Apulia
19.2 Italian_Liguria
14.6 Greek_Cappadocia
12.2 Samaritan
4.8 Albanian
2.6 Greek_Macedonia
1.6 Somali
0.4 Kosipe
0.4 She
0.2 Surui



Target: Greek_Crete:798
Distance: 2.1577% / 0.02157723
42.0 Greek_Cappadocia
33.2 Sephardic_Jew
8.4 Sardinian
7.6 Greek_Thessaly
5.0 Greek_Macedonia
2.0 Mari
1.2 Italian_Lombardy
0.6 Ju_hoan_North




Target: Greek_Crete:797
Distance: 1.8093% / 0.01809305
27.2 Iraqi_Jew
22.8 Greek_Laconia
15.6 Greek_Central_Anatolia
15.4 Sardinian
5.2 Rumelia_East
4.4 Kurdish
3.4 Palestinian_Beit_Sahour
3.0 Iranian_Jew
2.6 Mari
0.2 Papuan
0.2 Sakha



Target: Greek_Crete:796
Distance: 1.8467% / 0.01846719
42.8 Italian_Jew
20.6 Turkish_Trabzon
14.2 Italian_Lazio
12.2 Greek_Peloponnese
3.6 Sardinian
3.2 Samaritan
2.4 Sorb_Niederlausitz
1.0 Surui



Target: Greek_Crete:794
Distance: 1.6580% / 0.01658004
47.4 Greek_Laconia
20.8 Greek_Central_Anatolia
19.8 Palestinian_Beit_Sahour
8.4 Spanish_Soria
1.4 Brahmin_Tamil_Nadu
0.8 Yakut
0.6 Australian
0.4 Kurdish
0.2 Mlabri
0.2 Yukpa




Target: Greek_Crete:791
Distance: 2.4721% / 0.02472119
48.2 Greek_Kos
25.2 Greek_Laconia
8.6 Turkish_Trabzon
8.0 Spanish_Soria
3.2 Sardinian
3.0 Palestinian_Beit_Sahour
1.6 Spanish_La_Rioja
1.0 Igorot
0.6 Biaka
0.6 Papuan



Target: Greek_Crete:786
Distance: 2.8348% / 0.02834755
29.8 Greek_Izmir
18.2 Rumelia_East
15.8 Greek_Kos
14.0 Palestinian_Beit_Sahour
6.4 Spanish_Soria
4.8 Greek_Laconia
4.4 Italian_Aosta_Valley
3.2 Mountain_Jew
1.6 Iranian_Jew
1.4 Japanese
0.4 Mari




Target: Greek_Crete:784
Distance: 2.1233% / 0.02123276
37.2 Greek_Dodecanese
19.2 Italian_Lazio
18.4 Iraqi_Jew
7.6 Sardinian
6.2 Armenian_Hemsheni
5.6 Lithuanian_VA
3.6 Samaritan
1.0 Changana
0.6 Ket
0.6 Serbian



Target: Greek_Crete:783
Distance: 1.8491% / 0.01849131
27.2 Armenian_Hemsheni
23.0 Greek_Laconia
17.8 Rumelia_East
10.0 Palestinian_Beit_Sahour
7.8 Moroccan_Jew
7.0 Lithuanian_VA
4.0 Saudi
2.0 Berber_Tunisia_Chen
1.2 Ket



Target: Greek_Crete:782
Distance: 1.8751% / 0.01875096
53.0 Greek_Dodecanese
25.8 Rumelia_East
8.0 Italian_Lazio
4.2 Mari
3.2 Darginian
2.6 Spanish_Soria
1.6 Berber_Tunisia_Chen
1.0 Georgian_Laz
0.4 Mbuti
0.2 Sardinian



Target: Greek_Crete:779
Distance: 1.3547% / 0.01354703
31.0 Macedonian
25.8 Greek_Trabzon
17.8 Sardinian
14.6 Greek_Cappadocia
3.6 Spanish_Pais_Vasco
2.6 Samaritan
2.2 Georgian_Laz
1.8 Masai
0.4 Ju_hoan_North
0.2 Italian_Bergamo



Target: Greek_Crete:778
Distance: 1.7360% / 0.01736045
36.6 Greek_Laconia
16.0 Greek_Macedonia
14.4 Greek_Trabzon
8.6 Rumelia_East
7.6 Greek_Central_Anatolia
7.6 Sardinian
4.8 Samaritan
3.0 Berber_MAR_TIZ
0.6 Even
0.6 Tunisian_Berber_Tamezret
0.2 Tunisian_Jew



Target: Greek_Crete:771
Distance: 2.7048% / 0.02704778
51.0 Greek_Cappadocia
16.2 Italian_Liguria
12.2 Sephardic_Jew
9.8 Italian_Lombardy
4.6 Samaritan
4.4 Iraqi_Jew
1.6 Somali
0.2 Dinka



Target: Greek_Crete:770
Distance: 2.1101% / 0.02110063
42.4 Greek_Macedonia
17.4 Samaritan
14.6 Georgian_Imer
10.8 Italian_Liguria
9.0 Greek_Cappadocia
3.4 Sardinian
1.2 Berber_Tunisia_Chen
1.2 Gupta



Target: Greek_Crete:768
Distance: 2.0965% / 0.02096544
31.0 Palestinian_Beit_Sahour
21.6 Greek_Laconia
19.8 Italian_Aosta_Valley
11.2 Turkish_Trabzon
9.0 Armenian_Hemsheni
5.0 Greek_Central_Anatolia
1.4 Greek_Trabzon
1.0 Papuan



Target: Greek_Crete:767
Distance: 2.0166% / 0.02016599
44.0 Greek_Laconia
30.6 Greek_Kos
14.0 Palestinian_Beit_Sahour
3.4 Sorb_Niederlausitz
3.2 Iraqi_Jew
2.8 Greek_Central_Anatolia
2.0 Kosipe



Target: Greek_Crete:766
Distance: 2.1681% / 0.02168067
23.8 Greek_Central_Anatolia
23.4 Greek_Dodecanese
14.6 Turkish_Trabzon
9.0 Cypriot
9.0 Sardinian
8.6 Sorb_Niederlausitz
5.0 Berber_Tunisia_Chen
3.8 Italian_Calabria
1.8 Rumelia_East
0.4 Berber_MAR_TIZ
0.4 Mbuti
0.2 Kosipe



Target: Greek_Crete:765
Distance: 2.2531% / 0.02253137
81.6 Greek_Kos
9.4 Sorb_Niederlausitz
3.6 Palestinian_Beit_Sahour
2.2 Georgian_Laz
1.0 Papuan
1.0 Sardinian
0.8 Mbuti
0.4 Spanish_Soria



Target: Greek_Crete:761
Distance: 2.5471% / 0.02547124
58.2 Greek_Laconia
29.0 Palestinian_Beit_Sahour
8.8 Chechen
1.4 Greek_Central_Anatolia
1.2 Sakha
1.0 Kurdish
0.4 Ju_hoan_North



Target: Greek_Crete:760
Distance: 1.7517% / 0.01751703
47.6 Greek_Trabzon
20.0 Macedonian
12.0 Samaritan
11.4 Sardinian
4.2 Greek_Cappadocia
3.8 Greek_Laconia
1.0 Surui



Target: Greek_Crete:757
Distance: 1.9443% / 0.01944258
49.0 Greek_Izmir
21.8 Greek_Laconia
12.8 Greek_Central_Anatolia
7.4 Palestinian_Beit_Sahour
4.4 Gupta
4.0 Italian_Umbria
0.6 Sardinian



Target: Greek_Crete:756
Distance: 1.5705% / 0.01570525
39.8 Greek_Izmir
18.0 Greek_Central_Anatolia
11.4 Greek_Laconia
10.0 Sardinian
5.4 Armenian_Hemsheni
4.8 Italian_Calabria
4.2 Saudi
3.4 Palestinian_Beit_Sahour
1.6 Swiss_Italian
1.0 Bantu_Kenya
0.2 Gupta
0.2 Surui




Target: Greek_Crete:753
Distance: 1.4246% / 0.01424591
43.6 Greek_Cappadocia
28.0 Sicilian_East
19.0 Greek_Macedonia
3.2 Samaritan
2.2 Sardinian
1.4 Russian_Smolensk
1.2 Gupta
0.8 Igorot
0.6 Yoruba



Target: Greek_Crete:752
Distance: 1.6293% / 0.01629291
31.8 Greek_Macedonia
29.0 Samaritan
12.4 Italian_Liguria
8.4 Sardinian
6.6 Georgian_Laz
4.8 Abkhasian
2.4 Greek_Cappadocia
2.0 Georgian_Imer
1.8 Berber_Tunisia_Chen
0.8 Greek_Trabzon



Target: Greek_Crete:747
Distance: 1.5844% / 0.01584437
40.0 Greek_Central_Anatolia
28.0 Greek_Kos
19.6 Greek_Dodecanese
7.0 Lithuanian_RA
3.4 Saudi
1.4 Han_Shanghai
0.4 Japanese
0.2 Ju_hoan_North



Target: Greek_Crete:746
Distance: 2.2644% / 0.02264403
33.8 Greek_Izmir
24.8 Greek_Laconia
15.4 Palestinian_Beit_Sahour
12.6 Georgian_Laz
6.8 Sardinian
5.4 BedouinB
1.0 Papuan
0.2 Spanish_La_Rioja




Target: Greek_Crete:742
Distance: 2.0506% / 0.02050603
51.8 Greek_Cappadocia
12.4 Sardinian
9.8 Cossack_Ukrainian
9.6 Italian_Lombardy
9.2 Greek_Dodecanese
3.6 Yemenite_Al_Jawf
2.0 Greek_Macedonia
1.0 Mari
0.6 Papuan




Target: Greek_Crete:740
Distance: 2.2781% / 0.02278128
34.0 Greek_Izmir
28.6 Greek_Dodecanese
16.6 Greek_Kos
9.6 Albanian
9.2 Greek_Laconia
2.0 Masai



Target: Greek_Crete:738
Distance: 1.8040% / 0.01804031
24.4 Albanian
19.4 Greek_Dodecanese
16.6 Greek_Trabzon
14.2 Italian_Calabria
9.8 Samaritan
5.8 Greek_Macedonia
5.8 Macedonian
2.4 Italian_Liguria
1.2 Berber_Tunisia_Chen
0.4 Ju_hoan_North




Target: Greek_Crete:736
Distance: 1.7934% / 0.01793402
52.8 Greek_Izmir
31.2 Greek_Central_Anatolia
8.0 Greek_Kos
4.2 Spanish_Soria
1.8 Mbuti
1.0 Georgian_Jew
0.4 Biaka
0.2 Esan_Nigeria
0.2 Koinanbe
0.2 Swiss_French



Target: Greek_Crete:735
Distance: 1.9576% / 0.01957606
39.8 Greek_Laconia
18.0 Turkish_Trabzon
13.0 Palestinian_Beit_Sahour
11.6 Rumelia_East
5.6 Sardinian
4.0 Lak
3.8 Georgian_Laz
2.2 Armenian_Hemsheni
1.6 Berber_Tunisia_Chen
0.4 Spanish_Soria



Target: Greek_Crete:734
Distance: 1.9194% / 0.01919403
46.6 Greek_Cappadocia
10.6 Italian_Liguria
10.4 Greek_Laconia
8.0 Samaritan
7.0 Basque_French
6.8 Albanian
5.2 Palestinian_Beit_Sahour
2.8 Sardinian
1.6 Macedonian
1.0 Gupta



Target: Greek_Crete:733
Distance: 1.8141% / 0.01814062
40.2 Greek_Macedonia
26.4 Samaritan
19.0 Italian_Lombardy
11.6 Greek_Trabzon
2.0 Mari
0.6 Papuan
0.2 Spanish_Asturias



Target: Greek_Crete:732
Distance: 1.7982% / 0.01798205
58.4 Greek_Laconia
18.8 Greek_Trabzon
8.8 Palestinian_Beit_Sahour
5.4 Sardinian
5.0 Greek_Kos
1.4 Italian_Calabria
1.2 Madiga
0.8 Papuan
0.2 Ju_hoan_North



Target: Greek_Crete:731
Distance: 1.8982% / 0.01898194
29.6 Greek_Thessaly
18.4 Turkish_Trabzon
16.4 Iraqi_Jew
13.2 Rumelia_East
7.4 Greek_Macedonia
6.4 Sephardic_Jew
5.4 Sardinian
2.6 Berber_MAR_TIZ
0.6 Esan_Nigeria




Target: Greek_Crete:730
Distance: 1.9852% / 0.01985167
18.4 Cypriot
16.8 Sardinian
12.2 Greek_Trabzon
10.6 Greek_Laconia
10.4 Samaritan
10.0 Albanian
9.6 Greek_Cappadocia
5.4 Greek_Central_Anatolia
4.2 Greek_Izmir
2.4 Pulliyar

Johnny ola
01-25-2021, 02:18 PM
I would stick to using ancient/Medieval samples, and far fewer groups. The exotic ancestry should still be there, if you use Mar Taforalt, Shahr i Sokhta, Yoruba and some Han like sample. The percentages will change a little bit depending on the groups you use, but they will still be there.

Do not use Hajji Firuz and Sehn Gabi. They are very mixed and tend to consume most of the Levant/Caucasus/Romani/North African ancestry.

I don't see any reason to be super sceptical, given Johny's and my posts on the topic.



Other balkan ethnic groups can shown such admixtures but i am not gonna post them.I am focusing now only about the Greek samples.This is based on G25.Those who do not trust G25 should not buy it.But this is what it is.Even with ancient samples and models they are still there as you said.

XXD
01-25-2021, 02:24 PM
A model like this would work for most people, plus Anatolia Isparta/Kumtepe for some (I never score any of this ancestry):

distance: 1.718952
Empuries 2 and HRV IA: 48.8
Avar_Szolad: 24.4
RUS_Maykop_Novosvobodnaya: 12.8
Levant_Megiddo_IA: 10.2
IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2: 1.6
MAR_Taforalt: 0.8
CHN_Chuanyun_Historic: 0.8
Yoruba: 0.6

With Kura Araxes I get better fits, and the Levant ancestry is lower, although Johny said that Kura Araxes may not be a very realistic proxy for Greeks, as it is a very old group:

distance: 1.656775
Ancient Greece/Balkans: 51.6
Avar_Szolad: 22.6
Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kaps: 16.4
Levant_Meggido_IA: 5.2
IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2: 1.8
MAR_Taforalt: 1.4
CHN_Chuanyun_Historic: 0.8
Yoruba: 0.6

You see that the percentages change a little bit but they are pretty constant.

Johnny, you think my Maykop is indicative of Pontic descent?

Since I am 25% Crete, 25% Arcadia, 12.5% Nigde, 6.25% Chios, 6.25% Bursa, 12.5% Bebek (Urum origin), 12.5% Pergamon, I have had plenty of chance to accumulate all the exotic ancestries of our people :p

Markos
01-25-2021, 02:25 PM
Other balkan ethnic groups can shown such admixtures but i am not gonna post them.I am focusing now only about the Greek samples.This is based on G25.Those who do not trust G25 should not buy it.But this is what it is.Even with ancient samples and models they are still there as you said.

Yeah so some Greeks are part Amazonian Indigenous and Papuan, and Swiss, etc makes sense....

The calculators are using populations with multiple components within them to generate the closest fit possible. It doesn't explain which components from those populations are being used in order achieve that.

I can't take this seriously. Do you not see the clear fallacy in the methodology? We need to think logically here. There is no literal explanation as to why some Greeks are getting some of the populations they are receiving in small percentages. If, in fact, you can somehow make sense of them through other means or explanations, then you can do the same for even the ones that are more "believable", thus deligitimizing the process altogether.

Johnny ola
01-25-2021, 03:18 PM
Yeah so some Greeks are part Amazonian Indigenous and Papuan, and Swiss, etc makes sense....

The calculators are using populations with multiple components within them to generate the closest fit possible. It doesn't explain which components from those populations are being used in order achieve that.

I can't take this seriously. Do you not see the clear fallacy in the methodology? We need to think logically here. There is no literal explanation as to why some Greeks are getting some of the populations they are receiving in small percentages. If, in fact, you can somehow make sense of them through other means or explanations, then you can do the same for even the ones that are more "believable", thus deligitimizing the process altogether.

First of all not all of the samples showing these exotic components.Second,who cares what you believe and what you buy or whatever?This is G25.This is what the samples showing.Face the reality and live with it.Otherwise do not use G25.And as i mention above... if there are proves that these specific samples are of low res/quality then i can accept it.But since David inclundes them in G25 program it means they are fine.My point is,that you cannot change the algorithms and how G25 works.This is how these samples are coming, it dosn't matter if they score 1-2% ssa/east eurasian or whatever...the point is that they are still there.If you test the ancestors of these individuals then they probably score even more.Also to mention that it is not only G25 calucator that can show such exotic admixutres.We have seen them in Gedmatch and even in companies like 23andme etc.

Johnny ola
01-25-2021, 03:29 PM
A model like this would work for most people, plus Anatolia Isparta/Kumtepe for some (I never score any of this ancestry):

distance: 1.718952
Empuries 2 and HRV IA: 48.8
Avar_Szolad: 24.4
RUS_Maykop_Novosvobodnaya: 12.8
Levant_Megiddo_IA: 10.2
IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2: 1.6
MAR_Taforalt: 0.8
CHN_Chuanyun_Historic: 0.8
Yoruba: 0.6

With Kura Araxes I get better fits, and the Levant ancestry is lower, although Johny said that Kura Araxes may not be a very realistic proxy for Greeks, as it is a very old group:

distance: 1.656775
Ancient Greece/Balkans: 51.6
Avar_Szolad: 22.6
Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kaps: 16.4
Levant_Meggido_IA: 5.2
IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2: 1.8
MAR_Taforalt: 1.4
CHN_Chuanyun_Historic: 0.8
Yoruba: 0.6

You see that the percentages change a little bit but they are pretty constant.

Johnny, you think my Maykop is indicative of Pontic descent?

Since I am 25% Crete, 25% Arcadia, 12.5% Nigde, 6.25% Chios, 6.25% Bursa, 12.5% Bebek (Urum origin), 12.5% Pergamon, I have had plenty of chance to accumulate all the exotic ancestries of our people :p


Whatever you use,since you have west asian mix it will shown up.Pontic Greeks do not have maykop or kura araxex.They have something like the North Caucasus MBA and Darkveti Meshoko.They are CHG shift(west caucasian like) group.I think Colchians/Kartvelians would have been like modern Georgians from Imereti genetically...so mostly CHG+something anatolian N.Now about the west asian mix among other Greeks,i have mention it many times that it is Anatolian Bronze Age.The vast majority of the Greek samples we have seen so far picking first refrences like Isparta EBA/Kaman Katahoyk/Ovaoren etc because they are obviously more west asian admixed compared to their forefathers(Myceneaans,Minoans,) and the samples we got from Classical Greeks(Empuries2).And ofc some of the samples require something levantine especially Greek islanders,Cretans,and the samples we got from Laconia.Witch means either Greece before the Slavic expansion was very anatolian-levantine(prolly from hellenistic and Alexander's times) shifted or after 2 centuries of Slavic occupation of Greece these Byzantine Emperors later brought romanicized and christianicized populations to mainland to repopulate these lands.This is the genetic make up for modern Greeks.

Markos
01-25-2021, 03:30 PM
First of all not all of the samples showing these exotic components.Second,who cares what you believe and what you buy or whatever?This is G25.This is what the samples showing.Face the reality and live with it.Otherwise do not use G25.And as i mention above... if there are proves that these specific samples are of low res/quality then i can accept it.But since David inclundes them in G25 program it means they are fine.My point is,that you cannot change the algorithms and how G25 works.This is how these samples are coming, it dosn't matter if they score 1-2% ssa/east eurasian or whatever...the point is that they are still there.If you test the ancestors of these individuals then they probably score even more.Also to mention that it is not only G25 calucator that can show such exotic admixutres.We have seen them in Gedmatch and even in companies like 23andme etc.

My argument isn't criticizing G25 specifically but of the tools we have period to determine trace ancestry. "Face the reality and live with it." :lol:

Yeah, man. I bet my third great-grandfather was an Amazonian princess. For sure. Makes sense!

Johnny ola
01-25-2021, 03:36 PM
My argument isn't criticizing G25 specifically but of the tools we have period to determine trace ancestry. "Face the reality and live with it." :lol:

Yeah, man. I bet my third great-grandfather was an Amazonian princess. For sure. Makes sense!

Well it seems weird and i agree with you.But the majority of the samples i posted are mostly south asian,north african-ssa and east eurasian.What makes you think that modern Greeks are untouched from such admixtures?

Markos
01-25-2021, 03:40 PM
Well it seems weird and i agree with you.But the majority of the samples i posted are mostly south asian,north african-ssa and east eurasian.What makes you think that modern Greeks are untouched from such admixtures?

I think I explained that in my earlier argument. Standalone, I totally follow what you're saying. But it's not black and white. By showing multiple other world populations within some results delegitimizes all results.

DFSTFD
01-25-2021, 03:54 PM
For my part, I'll repeat at least the point of consistency I mentioned above. When using this specific kind of method and you get this kind of ancestry at very low levels, it seems like a good idea to see how consistently it appears throughout the population too, rather than just with specific individuals (and the more samples you have the better probably). In e.g. ADMIXTURE runs, you often also get very small amounts of various "exotic" ancestries in a few individuals of pretty much all populations. If that kind of ancestry appears very consistently throughout a population, even at low levels which would make you more skeptical in the first place, it's probably more likely that there's something there than if it doesn't I think.

It's e.g. quite possible that the Irish (2/85; at least those specific ones!) have low levels of some second-hand Nganassan-like ancestry that they got from Scandinavians who got it from Finns over time rather than something else going on but it's much more likely that Estonians (5/10, and also have more clear ties to that kind of ancestry without even having to resort to plausible micro-events, like "this settlement X of Y people might have been responsible for this showing up in this specific area") do.

But it's not inconceivable that very small amounts of even very "exotic" ancestries do exist throughout most populations anyway so it's not unthinkable, even just supposing there has been at least slight mixture almost throughout the human range over time. Though there are probably better methods to detect this kind of low-level "exotic" ancestry, especially when it appears only in specific individuals, like IBD sharing (but even then I'm not sure how certain you can be about e.g. whether it's capturing bidirectional flow or stronger flow from which population to another and whatnot, and someone else would have to answer that, though at least a recent link becomes more plausible) and others.

Johnny ola
01-25-2021, 04:06 PM
For my part, I'll repeat at least the point of consistency I mentioned above. When using this specific kind of method and you get this kind of ancestry at very low levels, it seems like a good idea to see how consistently it appears throughout the population too, rather than just with specific individuals (and the more samples you have the better probably). In e.g. ADMIXTURE runs, you often also get very small amounts of various "exotic" ancestries in a few individuals of pretty much all populations. If that kind of ancestry appears very consistently throughout a population, even at low levels which would make you more skeptical in the first place, it's probably more likely that there's something there than if it doesn't I think.

It's e.g. quite possible that the Irish (2/85; at least those specific ones!) have low levels of some second-hand Nganassan-like ancestry that they got from Scandinavians who got it from Finns over time rather than something else going on but it's much more likely that Estonians (5/10, and also have more clear ties to that kind of ancestry without even having to resort to plausible micro-events, like "this settlement X of Y people might have been responsible for this showing up in this specific area") do.

But it's not inconceivable that very small amounts of even very "exotic" ancestries do exist throughout most populations anyway so it's not unthinkable, even just supposing there has been at least slight mixture almost throughout the human range over time. Though there are probably better methods to detect this kind of low-level "exotic" ancestry, especially when it appears only in specific individuals, like IBD sharing (but even then I'm not sure how certain you can be about e.g. whether it's capturing bidirectional flow or stronger flow from which population to another and whatnot, and someone else would have to answer that, though at least a recent link becomes more plausible) and others.


Ok, thank you for your usefull informations.I would like to see David's statement about it as well.

Greekscholar
01-26-2021, 11:28 PM
It is hard to say too much about individual samples if you don't know their paper trail. I tend to believe trace ancestry when it is connected with a paper trail, or maybe a village or island of origin that matches the trace ancestry. Otherwise, I tend to not focus too much on the "exotic" ancestry unless modeling doesn't work without that ancestry, and that specific ancestry is what improves the fit. For instance, the Ikaria/Samos sample does not get a good fit using models that work for other islanders, he needs that South Asian. When using the G25 complete spreadsheet, it still selects a South Asian population, or ancient component of the modern genetics of those groups.

For me, the 99.5% is more interesting than the possible 0.5%, but that is my opinion.

discreetmaverick
01-29-2021, 12:49 AM
Crete.

Target: Greek_Crete:Crete8
Distance: 1.2416% / 0.01241593
25.6 Greek_Cappadocia
19.8 Greek_Kos
16.2 Sardinian
16.0 Serbian
11.6 Greek_Izmir
5.8 Georgian_Imer
1.4 Georgian_Laz
1.4 Yemenite_Jew
1.0 Cameroon_Bakoko
0.8 Koinanbe
0.4 Mbuti


Target: Greek_Crete:Crete5
Distance: 2.1329% / 0.02132908
32.4 Greek_Macedonia
26.2 Greek_Cappadocia
15.8 Samaritan
9.4 Italian_Liguria
8.6 Iraqi_Jew
6.4 Sardinian
1.2 Dinka



Target: Greek_Crete:Crete4
Distance: 1.1842% / 0.01184237
24.2 Iraqi_Jew
18.4 Rumelia_East
14.8 Greek_Central_Macedonia
13.8 Palestinian_Beit_Sahour
12.8 Greek_Izmir
3.6 Sardinian
2.4 Berber_Tunisia_Chen
2.4 Greek_Kos
2.2 Macedonian
2.2 Turkish_Trabzon
1.2 Brahui
1.0 Mountain_Jew
0.6 Mari
0.4 Sorb_Niederlausitz
Target: Greek_Crete:802
Distance: 2.4932% / 0.02493166
34.6 Greek_Izmir
34.0 Greek_Laconia
15.6 Palestinian_Beit_Sahour
9.2 Georgian_Laz
2.0 Berber_MAR_TIZ
1.6 Mari
1.2 Mansi
1.2 Sardinian
0.6 Papuan



The North African and SSA components that Greeks samples are scoring in trace amounts are scored by some south Asian in trace amounts. Some South Asians also score bedouin in similar amounts.


Similarly the Brahmin_Gujarat GBR have individuals with highly tentative African ancestry such as although this could entirely be noise and probably is...


Distance: 1.0384% / 0.01038388
Target: Brahmin_Gujarat:GBR-10
48.8 Gujar_Pakistan
16.2 Gupta
13.6 Punjabi_Jatt
11.9 Piramalai
3.8 Icelandic
2.1 Brahui
1.6 North_Ossetian
1.0 Bantu_Kenya
0.5 Mari
0.4 Igorot
0.1 Kalash


Distance: 0.8570% / 0.00857011
Target: Brahmin_Gujarat:GBR-18
29.8 Gujar_Pakistan
20.0 Brahmin_Uttar_Pradesh
16.3 Jatt_Pathak
13.4 Gupta
5.1 Brahmin_Gujarat
4.9 Balochi
4.9 Kol
3.0 Kalash
0.9 Mbuti
0.8 Mansi
0.5 Berber_MAR_TIZ
0.4 Mandenka


Distance: 1.3932% / 0.01393224
Target: Brahmin_Gujarat:GBR-15
39.0 Brahmin_Uttar_Pradesh
27.7 Velamas
11.2 Piramalai
10.4 Balochi
8.0 Uttar_Pradesh
1.8 Gupta
0.9 Mbuti
0.4 Kalash
0.4 Wichi
0.2 Dinka



For SSA Component for South Asians, one of the possibilities discussed is that it could be brought by pearl/finger millet farmers from the Horn 4- 5 kya.


1. Could greek inherited these components from South Asians?
2. Or south Asians acquired these from Indo- greeks?
3. Sources for both may be independent, but the same components in similar amounts make it less likely IMO.
4. I don't know if North African Berber_MAR_TIZ or MAR_Taforalt can be explained by Millet farmers?
5. What would explain the Mari component?

There is a mention of Crete settlement in India, probably an indication of migration, who might have returned back to Greece or could have assimilated with the local population?


Stephanus of Byzantium wrote about a city called Daedala or Daidala (Ancient Greek: Δαίδαλα) in India,[99] which he called it Indo-Cretan city, most probably because it was a settlement of Cretan mercenaries.[100]



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Greece%E2%80%93Ancient_India_relations

davit
01-29-2021, 01:00 AM
The North African and SSA components that Greeks samples are scoring in trace amounts are scored by some south Asian in trace amounts. Some South Asians also score bedouin in similar amounts.



For SSA Component for South Asians, one of the possibilities discussed is that it could be brought by pearl/finger millet farmers from the Horn 4- 5 kya.


1. Could greek inherited these components from South Asians?
2. Or south Asians acquired these from Indo- greeks?
3. Sources for both may be independent, but the same components in similar amounts make it less likely IMO.
4. I don't know if North African Berber_MAR_TIZ or MAR_Taforalt can be explained by Millet farmers?
5. What would explain the Mari component?

There is a mention of Crete settlement in India, probably an indication of migration, who might have returned back to Greece or could have assimilated with the local population?




https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Greece%E2%80%93Ancient_India_relations


Where is the evidence for millet farmers settling in India?

discreetmaverick
01-29-2021, 01:15 AM
Where is the evidence for millet farmers settling in India?

As mentioned, a possibility, I mean based on the spread of Pearl millet, as suggested by pegasus.


. It nicely correlates with the spread of African pearl/finger millet from the Horn, which interestingly shows up in the Gujarat area first. The noise level of African ancestry means it's ancient not recent ie 4-5 Kya

davit
01-29-2021, 01:18 AM
As mentioned, a possibility, I mean based on the spread of Pearl millet, as suggested by pegasus.

It could just be noise though no?

discreetmaverick
01-29-2021, 01:23 AM
It could just be noise though no?

Unless it is noise... How can we be sure? how to validate it is noise or not?

Johnny ola
01-29-2021, 04:36 AM
Unless it is noise... How can we be sure? how to validate it is noise or not?

0.5,0.6 etc are noise.But anything above 1,2,3 its not.Some of the Cretan samples can be modeled with something limited from North Africa etc..but not crazy things.I am not sure about the connection with India,i can't answer that.