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alejandromb92
01-26-2021, 06:31 PM
If you are R-M269, choose your known clade in the poll.

rober_tce
01-26-2021, 08:59 PM
I have already vote! As I said in other thread, my clade is R-Z209.

alejandromb92
01-26-2021, 09:02 PM
I have already vote! As I said in other thread, my clade is R-Z209.

It belongs to DF27 right? :rolleyes:

Luso
01-26-2021, 10:04 PM
Mine is Z225, but that's under DF27 so voted as that.

rober_tce
01-27-2021, 03:26 PM
It belongs to DF27 right? :rolleyes:

Yes, you have reason. I have much to learn about it yet :rofl:

alejandromb92
01-27-2021, 03:57 PM
Yes, you have reason. I have much to learn about it yet :rofl:

It's alright my friend! No worries. If you have the chance of change your vote, cool, if not, no worries.

alejandromb92
01-27-2021, 03:58 PM
Right now L21 (5) and DF27 (4+1) are both tied and are the most voted. I will expect that U152 do a turnover.

AlfonsoVIII
01-27-2021, 06:36 PM
I'm the only one A8051...
https://data.photofunky.net/output/image/8/4/1/7/84173c/photofunky.gif

rober_tce
01-27-2021, 10:25 PM
It's alright my friend! No worries. If you have the chance of change your vote, cool, if not, no worries.

I have tried change my vote but without succes. How can I change it?

alejandromb92
01-28-2021, 10:03 AM
I have tried change my vote but without succes. How can I change it?

I think you can't, but it's okay i know that DF27 has a +1 in the count.

JoeyP37
01-28-2021, 01:47 PM
I personally have no horse in this race, but go L21! I have two L21 great-great-grandfathers, one of northwestern French origin and the other Irish.

MitchellSince1893
01-28-2021, 02:23 PM
For its size U106 always seems underrepresented on this site as far as members go.

rms2
01-28-2021, 03:52 PM
For its size U106 always seems underrepresented on this site as far as members go.

I forget the details, but I think they've had their own U106 discussion site someplace else for quite awhile. I think that's where they all hang out, but I could be wrong.

alejandromb92
01-28-2021, 04:01 PM
I personally have no horse in this race, but go L21! I have two L21 great-great-grandfathers, one of northwestern French origin and the other Irish.

L21 it's winning right now, but doing a research in active members of this forum, i am surprised by the number of members carrying DF27, also there is a decent number of U152. Being realistic, considering the british dispora in North America and Oceania, L21 should win.

etrusco
01-28-2021, 04:05 PM
L21 it's winning right now, but doing a research in active members of this forum, i am surprised by the number of members carrying DF27, also there is a decent number of U152. Being realistic, considering the british dispora in North America and Oceania, L21 should win.





Maybe the Ydna of USA presidents can be a proxy for the overall population. Here what I got



1. George Washington R1b-L21
2. John Adams R1b-S1200>S14328>S6849
3. Thomas Jefferson T1a
5. James Monroe I2a1a-L161.1
6. John Quincy Adams R1b-S1200>S14328>S6849
7. Andrew Jackson I1
10. John Tyler I2a2a-CTS10148
11. James K. Polk R1b-U106>L48
12. Zachary Taylor R1b
14. Franklin Pierce R1b
15. James Buchanan R1b-L21>CTS11722
16. Abraham Lincoln R1b-U152>L2>S20376
17. Andrew Johnson I2a2a
18. Ulysses Grant R1b-U106>Z159
22. Grover Cleveland R1b-U152>L2>L20
25. William McKinley R1b-L21>DF13>L1335
28. Woodrow Wilson R1b
29. Warren G. Harding R1b-L21>DF23>ZP75
30. Calvin Coolidge I1
31. Herbert Hoover I1-Z161 or R1a-Z93
35. John F. Kennedy R1b
36. Lyndon Baines Johnson E-V13
39. Jimmy Carter I1
41. George H.W. Bush R1b-DF27>Z209>S16864
42. Bill Clinton I1
43. George W. Bush R1b-DF27>Z209>S16864
45. Donald Trump R1b-U106>L48>Z9>BY20693 (?)

JFK and the actual president will be likely R1b L21 IMHO.

rms2
01-28-2021, 04:09 PM
L21 it's winning right now, but doing a research in active members of this forum, i am surprised by the number of members carrying DF27, also there is a decent number of U152. Being realistic, considering the british dispora in North America and Oceania, L21 should win.

This is just my own impression, so it could be wrong, but it seems to me L21 participation here has fallen off in the last few years.

One reason for that could be the fleshing out of the L21 phylogenetic tree in the last several years since the advent of NGS testing and the Big Y. There are so many new terminal SNPs so far downstream that a lot of folks have come to regard L21 as hopelessly remote and of little genealogical value.

Most guys are into their own branches and sub-branches well downstream of L21.

alejandromb92
01-28-2021, 04:16 PM
Maybe the Ydna of USA president can be a proxy for the overall population. Here what I get



1. George Washington R1b-L21
2. John Adams R1b-S1200>S14328>S6849
3. Thomas Jefferson T1a
5. James Monroe I2a1a-L161.1
6. John Quincy Adams R1b-S1200>S14328>S6849
7. Andrew Jackson I1
10. John Tyler I2a2a-CTS10148
11. James K. Polk R1b-U106>L48
12. Zachary Taylor R1b
14. Franklin Pierce R1b
15. James Buchanan R1b-L21>CTS11722
16. Abraham Lincoln R1b-U152>L2>S20376
17. Andrew Johnson I2a2a
18. Ulysses Grant R1b-U106>Z159
22. Grover Cleveland R1b-U152>L2>L20
25. William McKinley R1b-L21>DF13>L1335
28. Woodrow Wilson R1b
29. Warren G. Harding R1b-L21>DF23>ZP75
30. Calvin Coolidge I1
31. Herbert Hoover I1-Z161 or R1a-Z93
35. John F. Kennedy R1b
36. Lyndon Baines Johnson E-V13
39. Jimmy Carter I1
41. George H.W. Bush R1b-DF27>Z209>S16864
42. Bill Clinton I1
43. George W. Bush R1b-DF27>Z209>S16864
45. Donald Trump R1b-U106>L48>Z9>BY20693 (?)

JFK and the actual president will be likely R1b L21 IMHO.

Interesting, we can say that every U.S. president was either R1b or I, with the big excepcion of Thomas Jefferson. I can only count 4 L21, but i can see that everyone of them are of non-english linage (not sure about Washington). Seems to be that DF27 is even more common than L21 in England, i don't know if someone can share some % distributions of english R1b clades.

rms2
01-28-2021, 04:18 PM
Interesting, we can say that every U.S. president was either R1b or I, with the big excepcion of Thomas Jefferson. I can only count 4 L21, but i can see that everyone of them are of non-english linage (not sure about Washington). Seems to be that DF27 is even more common than L21 in England, i don't know if someone can share some % distributions of english R1b clades.

You overlooked LBJ. He was E-V13 evidently.

I wonder how accurate all that is. How do we know which Prez belonged to which Y haplogroup?

MitchellSince1893
01-28-2021, 04:26 PM
Maybe the Ydna of USA presidents can be a proxy for the overall population. Here what I got



1. George Washington R1b-L21
2. John Adams R1b-S1200>S14328>S6849
3. Thomas Jefferson T1a
5. James Monroe I2a1a-L161.1
6. John Quincy Adams R1b-S1200>S14328>S6849
7. Andrew Jackson I1
10. John Tyler I2a2a-CTS10148
11. James K. Polk R1b-U106>L48
12. Zachary Taylor R1b
14. Franklin Pierce R1b
15. James Buchanan R1b-L21>CTS11722
16. Abraham Lincoln R1b-U152>L2>S20376
17. Andrew Johnson I2a2a
18. Ulysses Grant R1b-U106>Z159
22. Grover Cleveland R1b-U152>L2>L20
25. William McKinley R1b-L21>DF13>L1335
28. Woodrow Wilson R1b
29. Warren G. Harding R1b-L21>DF23>ZP75
30. Calvin Coolidge I1
31. Herbert Hoover I1-Z161 or R1a-Z93
35. John F. Kennedy R1b
36. Lyndon Baines Johnson E-V13
39. Jimmy Carter I1
41. George H.W. Bush R1b-DF27>Z209>S16864
42. Bill Clinton I1
43. George W. Bush R1b-DF27>Z209>S16864
45. Donald Trump R1b-U106>L48>Z9>BY20693 (?)

JFK and the actual president will be likely R1b L21 IMHO.

What is the source for George Washington being L21?

alejandromb92
01-28-2021, 04:29 PM
This is just my own impression, so it could be wrong, but it seems to me L21 participation here has fallen off in the last few years.

One reason for that could be the fleshing out of the L21 phylogenetic tree in the last several years since the advent of NGS testing and the Big Y. There are so many new terminal SNPs so far downstream that a lot of folks have come to regard L21 as hopelessly remote and of little genealogical value.

Most guys are into their own branches and sub-branches well downstream of L21.

It is my case, at least. I am very interested in knowing more about DF63 than L21, because it seems that this clade has a more britton affinity than gael, i might be wrong, but this is based in the frecuency of both clades. By the way, do you know where it came from? I mean, the L21 mutation, where it was originated.

alejandromb92
01-28-2021, 04:36 PM
You overlooked LBJ. He was E-V13 evidently.

I wonder how accurate all that is. How do we know which Prez belonged to which Y haplogroup?

Sorry, you are right. Obama might be E1b too, but we are not sure about it.

By the way, about Washington's Y-DNA, someone in the Washington DNA Project of FTDNA claims that he was his great-grand-father, and he is R-BY2744.

etrusco
01-28-2021, 04:40 PM
What is the source for George Washington being L21?

The source of the list is Maciamo. as per GW here a post from Richard Rocca from 2017:

Abraham Lincoln was without a doubt U152+L2+, but the statement on Eupedia that "... George Washington (1732-1799) may well have belonged to the L2 subclade of U152" always seemed too speculative for my liking. Yes, there are some Washingtons that are U152+L2+, but none seem to trace back to George Washington's English born great-grandfather; John Washington. The only kit that claims to descend from John Washington, b. 14 Mar 1631/32 d. before 1662 is kit no. 38080. That kit is predicted R-M269 and has a very distinct STR signature. I ran the STRs through the R1b specific version of the Nevgen haplogroup predictor and it returned the following results:

R1b L21>DF13> ZZ10>Z253> Z2186>BY2744
Probability: 100
Fitness: 90.18
Fitness 2: 1.24

rms2
01-28-2021, 05:39 PM
It is my case, at least. I am very interested in knowing more about DF63 than L21, because it seems that this clade has a more britton affinity than gael, i might be wrong, but this is based in the frecuency of both clades. By the way, do you know where it came from? I mean, the L21 mutation, where it was originated.

Somewhere on the Continent, my guess is the Lower Rhine, but it could even have originated in the Alpine region, because the Amesbury Archer evidently came from there, and he was probably L21+, given that his likely son, "The Companion", buried just 3 meters away, was L21+.

I'm hoping for at least one L21+ result in the upcoming SGC paper. But you know what they say about wishful thinking.

rms2
01-28-2021, 05:41 PM
Sorry, you are right. Obama might be E1b too, but we are not sure about it.

By the way, about Washington's Y-DNA, someone in the Washington DNA Project of FTDNA claims that he was his great-grand-father, and he is R-BY2744.

George Washington had no children of his own, but I believe there are some living males in the same Y-DNA line.

Sorry, I did not see post #22 above (https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?22820-R-M269-clades-statistics-in-Anthrogenica&p=741602&viewfull=1#post741602) before posting my comments about George Washington.

MitchellSince1893
01-28-2021, 06:00 PM
...By the way, about Washington's Y-DNA, someone in the Washington DNA Project of FTDNA claims that he was his great-grand-father, and he is R-BY2744.
Was it Paul Emory Washington or son?
https://www.nbcnews.com/id/wbna27075856

Old Abe is on my distant line. We share U152>L2>Z49>Z142>Z12222>FGC12378 block (FGC12378+ FGC12379+ FGC12380+ FGC12381+ FGC12382+)
Our lines split around 1000 BC per ytree.net

https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?2894-Abraham-Lincoln-U152-L2&p=60590&viewfull=1#post60590

alejandromb92
01-28-2021, 06:50 PM
Was it Paul Emory Washington or son?
https://www.nbcnews.com/id/wbna27075856

Old Abe is on my distant line. We share U152>L2>Z49>Z142>Z12222>FGC12378 block (FGC12378+ FGC12379+ FGC12380+ FGC12381+ FGC12382+)
Our lines split around 1000 BC per ytree.net

https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?2894-Abraham-Lincoln-U152-L2&p=60590&viewfull=1#post60590

It might be them, interesting! It seems that both George Washington and this people, descends from a man born in 1632 and was called John Washington.

Very cool that Abraham Lincoln is in the same line you are, nice!


Somewhere on the Continent, my guess is the Lower Rhine, but it could even have originated in the Alpine region, because the Amesbury Archer evidently came from there, and he was probably L21+, given that his likely son, "The Companion", buried just 3 meters away, was L21+.

I'm hoping for at least one L21+ result in the upcoming SGC paper. But you know what they say about wishful thinking.

The study made of Amesbury Archer indeed determined that he came from the Alps, i don't know how could you determine that but i believe in science 100% of the time, now, even if he came from there, i am not sure if we can conclude that L21 was made in the Alps, i always thought it was near West Germany, this because it has one of the highest incidence of L21, after Brittany and Iparralde, but this is just my observation, i know it's kind a vague.

rms2
01-28-2021, 06:58 PM
. . .
The study made of Amesbury Archer indeed determined that he came from the Alps, i don't know how could you determine that but i believe in science 100% of the time, now, even if he came from there, i am not sure if we can conclude that L21 was made in the Alps, i always thought it was near West Germany, this because it has one of the highest incidence of L21, after Brittany and Iparralde, but this is just my observation, i know it's kind a vague.

That's why I said I was guessing, because I don't know where L21 originated. I do know the early British Beaker men were already L21+, and many of them were DF13+, so it isn't likely L21 originated in Britain, despite the popularity of that idea.

Dental isotopes are how scientists guess that the Archer came from the Alpine region. Since he and the Companion, who was buried just 3 meters away, shared the same inherited anomaly in the bones of their feet, it's pretty certain they were closely related, probably father and son (the Companion was the younger of the two). Olalde et al could not get the Archer's genome, unfortunately, but they got the Companion's, and he was L21+.

That makes it very likely the Archer was L21+. Since he was probably not native to Britain, that would make him a continental L21 and part of the evidence that L21 first appeared on the Continent.

alejandromb92
01-28-2021, 07:23 PM
That's why I said I was guessing, because I don't know where L21 originated. I do know the early British Beaker men were already L21+, and many of them were DF13+, so it isn't likely L21 originated in Britain, despite the popularity of that idea.

Dental isotopes are how scientists guess that the Archer came from the Alpine region. Since he and the Companion, who was buried just 3 meters away, shared the same inherited anomaly in the bones of their feet, it's pretty certain they were closely related, probably father and son (the Companion was the younger of the two). Olalde et al could not get the Archer's genome, unfortunately, but they got the Companion's, and he was L21+.

That makes it very likely the Archer was L21+. Since he was probably not native to Britain, that would make him a continental L21 and part of the evidence that L21 first appeared on the Continent.

It's laughable and impossible to think L21 originated in the British isles when they were all already DF13, what I do think is that DF13 is 100% British, what is a bit unclear is DF63, but i do think also that is British. What do you think about df63?

rms2
01-28-2021, 07:24 PM
That's why I said I was guessing, because I don't know where L21 originated. I do know the early British Beaker men were already L21+, and many of them were DF13+, so it isn't likely L21 originated in Britain, despite the popularity of that idea.

Dental isotopes are how scientists guess that the Archer came from the Alpine region. Since he and the Companion, who was buried just 3 meters away, shared the same inherited anomaly in the bones of their feet, it's pretty certain they were closely related, probably father and son (the Companion was the younger of the two). Olalde et al could not get the Archer's genome, unfortunately, but they got the Companion's, and he was L21+.

That makes it very likely the Archer was L21+. Since he was probably not native to Britain, that would make him a continental L21 and part of the evidence that L21 first appeared on the Continent.

Not to turn this thread into an L21 thread, but dental isotopes show that, although the Companion was evidently born in Britain and spent the first few years of his life there, he was taken as an adolescent or pre-adolescent to the very same sort of region on the Continent where the Archer was born and raised (probably the Alpine region of Switzerland or southern Germany).

He may have traveled there with his father, the Archer, or perhaps, as a high-ranking individual, some sort of Beaker prince, he was part of a system of fosterage that some believe was also practiced earlier in Corded Ware.

It's interesting that the Archer's grave goods included a type of pin that has been found in Swiss Corded Ware (see Marc Heise's paper, "Heads North or East? A Re-Examination of Beaker Burials in Britain", pages 225-226).

rms2
01-28-2021, 07:26 PM
It's laughable and impossible to think L21 originated in the British isles when they were all already DF13, what I do think is that DF13 is 100% British, what is a bit unclear is DF63, but i do think also that is British. What do you think about df63?

I don't believe DF13 is 100% British. It's found on the Continent, as well.

There are plenty of continental DF63s, as I recall, although I have not kept up with all of the various L21 clades.

alejandromb92
01-28-2021, 07:51 PM
I don't believe DF13 is 100% British. It's found on the Continent, as well.

There are plenty of continental DF63s, as I recall, although I have not kept up with all of the various L21 clades.

Sorry, i meant that DF13 was originated in great Britain, is there an older df13 sample in the continent?

rms2
01-28-2021, 07:54 PM
Sorry, i meant that DF13 was originated in great Britain, is there an older df13 sample in the continent?

Not yet. But if Beaker immigrants were DF13+, they brought it with them from the Continent.

alejandromb92
01-28-2021, 08:00 PM
Not yet. But if Beaker immigrants were DF13+, they brought it with them from the Continent.

Could it be that beakers arrived with L21 and soon after DF13 mutation was with them, but what you say makes more sense and it's more realistic actually.

etrusco
01-28-2021, 08:13 PM
@all

there are many heat maps on the genetic forums about Y dna of various regions of the world. I could be wrong but I think we are short on this kind of map of the USA. It would be interesting to see the regional pattern of Y line in America. Mi humble take:

R1b L21 hotspots in New England and in the Appalachian region.
Northern Mid West hotspots of R1b U106 and I1 perhaps with a sparkle of R1bU152 (not of italian origins but from western Germany)
southern states probably another big presence of R1b U106 ( this is the part of the country where full fledged English ancestry is prevalent IIRC)
Hotspot of R1a likely in Illinois.
Washington DC probably heavily E1
Others parts of the country probably a patchwork of different Y lines

rms2
01-28-2021, 08:13 PM
Could it be that beakers arrived with L21 and soon after DF13 mutation was with them, but what you say makes more sense and it's more realistic actually.

That's possible, but, as I recall, some of the earliest Beakers were DF13+.

I'm really hoping the upcoming SGC paper has at least one L21+ or DF13+ in it.

rms2
01-28-2021, 08:23 PM
Honestly, I've been kind of Beakered out for awhile.

I'm more interested in R1b-L51 in Corded Ware right now.

Who's that knucklehead who posts over in the Comments at Eurogenes who attributes every L51 in Corded Ware to Beakers, even when they predate the very earliest dates for Beaker? "Arch Support" or something like that?

Maybe eventually he'll understand that Beaker came from Corded Ware and not the other way around.

etrusco
01-28-2021, 08:28 PM
sorry to derail the thread

update

Woodrow Wilson 8th President of the United States, belonged to haplogroup R1b-P312 > Z30597 (a rare clade) based on the testing of a descendant of his grandfather, Judge James Wilson (1787-1850) at the Wilson DNA Project (Genetic Family ZZN).

alan
01-28-2021, 08:34 PM
Most likely that DF13 originated in the NW continent but underwent a founder effect in the isles. That would be the most parsimonious explanation for its distribution. There is some (abmitedly not agreed on) suggestion that the British and Irish beaker folk didnt leave the continent from exactly the same location with perhaps British direct from the Rhine and the Irish coming from a Rhenish group who had headed west along the French side of the English Channel before heading to Ireland (as well as other contacts and movements direct from England). If that was true then it would surely suggest that DF13 existed on the continent prior to going to the isles.

However, my own view is the Irish classic wedge tombs are simply stone versions of the large (much wider than needed for one body) re-usable wooden chamber beaker burials (sometimes with more than one body) seen in the earliest phase of beaker in southern England/Thames valley in only modest numbers. I am not too sure of the exact continental origin of the these English tombs. The Amesbury archer grave chamber is of this type and others have been recorded elsewhere is a similar zone of England. That route from the Thames Valley to the Bristol Channel to Ireland was probably important in the distribution of copper from SW Ireland.

rms2
01-28-2021, 08:34 PM
sorry to derail the thread

update

Woodrow Wilson 8th President of the United States, belonged to haplogroup R1b-P312 > Z30597 (a rare clade) based on the testing of a descendant of his grandfather, Judge James Wilson (1787-1850) at the Wilson DNA Project (Genetic Family ZZN).

Speaking of Woodrow Wilson, a first cousin 3x removed of mine, Elizabeth Louisa Hunter, was the wife of Edward Mandell House ("Colonel House", 1858-1938), one of Wilson's closest advisors.

Elizabeth was the granddaughter of my Y-DNA third great grandfather, Auguston Stevens.

Coldmountains
01-28-2021, 08:38 PM
Honestly, I've been kind of Beakered out for awhile.

I'm more interested in R1b-L51 in Corded Ware right now.

Who's that knucklehead who posts over in the Comments at Eurogenes who attributes every L51 in Corded Ware to Beakers, even when they predate the very earliest dates for Beaker? "Arch Support" or something like that?

Maybe eventually he'll understand that Beaker came from Corded Ware and not the other way around.

From my perspective i find the history of early Bell Beakers and Steppe_MLBA/Sintashta/Proto-Indo-Iranians quite comparable. Both groups were seen by most archaeologists and even by most of us untill recently as non CWC-derived and someone had a confusing connection to other IEs, but it seems more and more that we see in late CWC (around 2500 B.C) on both the most western and most eastern border regions the transformation of late/middle CWC groups to even more mobile, expansionist, mettalurgical talented and "innovative" (absorbing strong material influences from non-CWC groups) agropastoralists. You see in most eastern CWC this transformation via Catacomb/Poltavka/late Yamnaya influences and in most western CWC via Neolithic Atlantic and Balkan populations (sorry if somehow inaccurate but i hope you get my point). The assimilation of foreign material culture was often so strong, that these cultures not looked like CWC-derived anymore despite genetically being mostly copy and pasted from earlier CWC. So many archaelogists were mislead and it is easy to understand why, but archaegenetics really clarified it and overturned most old assumptions about the origin of these cultures.

alan
01-28-2021, 08:52 PM
Not to turn this thread into an L21 thread, but dental isotopes show that, although the Companion was evidently born in Britain and spent the first few years of his life there, he was taken as an adolescent or pre-adolescent to the very same sort of region on the Continent where the Archer was born and raised (probably the Alpine region of Switzerland or southern Germany).

He may have traveled there with his father, the Archer, or perhaps, as a high-ranking individual, some sort of Beaker prince, he was part of a system of fosterage that some believe was also practiced earlier in Corded Ware.

It's interesting that the Archer's grave goods included a type of pin that has been found in Swiss Corded Ware (see Marc Heise's paper, "Heads North or East? A Re-Examination of Beaker Burials in Britain", pages 225-226).

The best sense I can make of it is use of the Rhine which does of course go from Holland to Switzerland. One thing about the Lower Rhine is its not an area with copper sources. It seems a lot more likely that people with the knowledge of metallurgy and mining were regularly in regions with those deposits. I recall recently reading there is a link between the lower Rhine and Switzerland in the CW era. The lower Rhine itself strikes me as a middlemen area in any metal network, as was the Wessex/Thames area of southern England where this seems to have made them very rich. But metal sources (and primary mining and smelting skills) were some distance away in the Alps, Brittany, Ireland etc. Im not surprised that great mobility is indicated.

alan
01-28-2021, 08:57 PM
From my perspective i find the history of early Bell Beakers and Steppe_MLBA/Sintashta/Proto-Indo-Iranians quite comparable. Both groups were seen by most archaeologists and even by most of us untill recently as non CWC-derived and someone had a confusing connection to other IEs, but it seems more and more that we see in late CWC (around 2500 B.C) on both the most western and most eastern border regions the transformation of late/middle CWC groups to even more mobile, expansionist, mettalurgical talented and "innovative" (absorbing strong material influences from non-CWC groups) agropastoralists. You see in most eastern CWC this transformation via Catacomb/Poltavka/late Yamnaya influences and in most western CWC via Neolithic Atlantic and Balkan populations (sorry if somehow inaccurate but i hope you get my point). The assimilation of foreign material culture was often so strong, that these cultures not looked like CWC-derived anymore despite genetically being mostly copy and pasted from earlier CWC. So many archaelogists were mislead and it is easy to understand why, but archaegenetics really clarified it and overturned most old assumptions about the origin of these cultures.

Very good summary. I totally agree that the phenomenon of beaker in the west does have contemporary parallels in other later CW and Yamnaya derived groups in the east c. 2500BC or so. Its probable that important new ideas and ways of living spread throughout the CW world around 2500BC or just before.

davit
01-28-2021, 09:26 PM
From my perspective i find the history of early Bell Beakers and Steppe_MLBA/Sintashta/Proto-Indo-Iranians quite comparable. Both groups were seen by most archaeologists and even by most of us untill recently as non CWC-derived and someone had a confusing connection to other IEs, but it seems more and more that we see in late CWC (around 2500 B.C) on both the most western and most eastern border regions the transformation of late/middle CWC groups to even more mobile, expansionist, mettalurgical talented and "innovative" (absorbing strong material influences from non-CWC groups) agropastoralists. You see in most eastern CWC this transformation via Catacomb/Poltavka/late Yamnaya influences and in most western CWC via Neolithic Atlantic and Balkan populations (sorry if somehow inaccurate but i hope you get my point). The assimilation of foreign material culture was often so strong, that these cultures not looked like CWC-derived anymore despite genetically being mostly copy and pasted from earlier CWC. So many archaelogists were mislead and it is easy to understand why, but archaegenetics really clarified it and overturned most old assumptions about the origin of these cultures.

Are you JuicyLittleGOOF by any chance?

Webb
01-28-2021, 09:42 PM
What are the Bush's Y ancestry? German?

AlfonsoVIII
01-28-2021, 09:50 PM
What are the Bush's Y ancestry? German?

Norman.

etrusco
01-28-2021, 09:55 PM
Norman.

source?

alejandromb92
01-28-2021, 09:55 PM
What are the Bush's Y ancestry? German?

English, i guess. There is a massive quantity of Z195 in England that is pretty absent in places like Scotland or Ireland, so this makes me think that it came from England. Bush doesn't really sound like a german surname, also DF27 is not that common there.

AlfonsoVIII
01-28-2021, 09:59 PM
southern states probably another big presence of R1b U106 ( this is the part of the country where full fledged English ancestry is prevalent IIRC)

I prefer a scenario in which U106 + L21 dominate the southern states (specifically Alabama, Louisiana, Georgia, Mississippi, Texas and Arkansas). L21 will dominate in the Carolinas in the Apalachian region, and also in Kentucky, Tennessee and the Virginias.

Finally DF27 would also represent a considerable percentage in Texas, Louisiana and Florida.

etrusco
01-28-2021, 10:05 PM
I prefer a scenario in which U106 + L21 dominate the southern states (specifically Alabama, Louisiana, Georgia, Mississippi, Texas and Arkansas). L21 will dominate in the Carolinas in the Apalachian region, and also in Kentucky, Tennessee and the Virginias.

Finally DF27 would also represent a considerable percentage in Texas, Louisiana and Florida.

Yes I think is likely R1b L21 pops up also in the south. Forgot that in western England R1b L21 is very high

alejandromb92
01-28-2021, 10:06 PM
I prefer a scenario in which U106 + L21 dominate the southern states (specifically Alabama, Louisiana, Georgia, Mississippi, Texas and Arkansas). L21 will dominate in the Carolinas in the Apalachian region, and also in Kentucky, Tennessee and the Virginias.

Finally DF27 would also represent a considerable percentage in Texas, Louisiana and Florida.

Utah and Massachusetts would be overwhemly L21, that's for sure.

AlfonsoVIII
01-28-2021, 10:12 PM
source?

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2005/jan/27/usa.angeliquechrisafis

AlfonsoVIII
01-28-2021, 10:16 PM
Utah and Massachusetts would be overwhemly L21, that's for sure.

In Utah there may also be high amounts of U106 and to a lesser extent DF19 and some S1194, although the sum of these three probably equals L21 there.

rms2
01-28-2021, 10:20 PM
Utah and Massachusetts would be overwhemly L21, that's for sure.

Not sure about Massachusetts except for the Irish diaspora and Boston. New England Puritans were largely from SE England, especially East Anglia. They would have been largely I-M253 and U106.

Pylsteen
01-28-2021, 10:23 PM
The Bush family is from Essex in England; any connections to medieval dynasties must be through the female line.

rms2
01-28-2021, 10:25 PM
The Bush family is from Essex in England; any connections to medieval dynasties must be through the female line.

A few years ago I read that the Bushes and Bill Clinton were distant cousins. I don't remember the exact details and don't care enough to look that up. Just thought I would mention it.

AlfonsoVIII
01-28-2021, 10:26 PM
Not sure about Massachusetts except for the Irish diaspora and Boston. New England Puritans were largely from SE England, especially East Anglia. They would have been largely I-M253 and U106.

I understand that in addition to the Irish and Scots, many Welsh and Cornish emigrated to the Appalachian region to work in mining, is that true?

rms2
01-28-2021, 10:27 PM
I understand that in addition to the Irish and Scots, many Welsh and Cornish emigrated to the Appalachian region to work in mining, is that true?

I believe that is true.

Pylsteen
01-28-2021, 10:42 PM
A few years ago I read that the Bushes and Bill Clinton were distant cousins. I don't remember the exact details and don't care enough to look that up. Just thought I would mention it.

I share distant Swiss ancestry with Bush his wife, if I remember from the late Wargs site, the world is small. An interesting question might be which 17th century American has the most presidents among his descendants.

Liquid
01-28-2021, 10:45 PM
I had to choose other just to spy on the results, sorry

Webb
01-28-2021, 10:58 PM
English, i guess. There is a massive quantity of Z195 in England that is pretty absent in places like Scotland or Ireland, so this makes me think that it came from England. Bush doesn't really sound like a german surname, also DF27 is not that common there.

At YTree there is a Ukraine kit and two Belgians under S16864. In the U.S. it was very common for the colonial wave of Germans to anglicize their surnames and Bush is one of those names that could be either or. Wertz became Virts, Boekker became Baker, Boltz became Pulse and so on.

Dewsloth
01-29-2021, 12:34 AM
Bush doesn't really sound like a german surname, also DF27 is not that common there.

:lol: Ever heard of a little brewery from Missouri called Anheuser-Busch?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolphus_Busch

MitchellSince1893
01-29-2021, 12:36 AM
U152 makes up 4-5% of US samples in FTDNA Database.
Italian Americans are probably a major contributors to U152 the US, especially northern Italians.
Census data for Italian Americans show higher percentages in New York, New Jersey, Connecticut, Rhode Island, Massachusetts, Pennsylvania, Chicago area, northern Wisconsin, upper peninsula Michigan, Northeast Minnesota, Florida, New Orleans, Nevada, California, Arizona, Oregon.

Much smaller in overall immigrants but rich in U152 are the Swiss. Looking at where Swiss Americans are concentrated
U152 would be concentrated in northwest Oregon/Southwest Washington, northern Utah, southeast Idaho, northeast Kansas/southeast Nebraska, northern Illinois/southern Wisconsin, northwest Indiana, northeast central Ohio, southeast PA, Watertown, NY, northeast West Virginia.

Of course lots of German Americans would be U152+ too.

My guess is U152 has its highest concentration in the US in New York, New Jesery, Connecticut, Rhode Island.
Southern US (excluding Florida) probably has the lowest U152 concentrations.

uintah106
01-29-2021, 01:11 AM
I forget the details, but I think they've had their own U106 discussion site someplace else for quite awhile. I think that's where they all hang out, but I could be wrong.

We are hiding out waiting for our next MAJOR expansion

Webb
01-29-2021, 01:53 AM
DF27 is in the lead, naturally.

alchemist223
01-29-2021, 02:38 AM
U152 makes up 4-5% of US samples in FTDNA Database.
Italian Americans are probably a major contributors to U152 the US, especially northern Italians.
Census data for Italian Americans show higher percentages in New York, New Jersey, Connecticut, Rhode Island, Massachusetts, Pennsylvania, Chicago area, northern Wisconsin, upper peninsula Michigan, Northeast Minnesota, Florida, New Orleans, Nevada, California, Arizona, Oregon.

Much smaller in overall immigrants but rich in U152 are the Swiss. Looking at where Swiss Americans are concentrated
U152 would be concentrated in northwest Oregon/Southwest Washington, northern Utah, southeast Idaho, northeast Kansas/southeast Nebraska, northern Illinois/southern Wisconsin, northwest Indiana, northeast central Ohio, southeast PA, Watertown, NY, northeast West Virginia.

Of course lots of German Americans would be U152+ too.

My guess is U152 has its highest concentration in the US in New York, New Jesery, Connecticut, Rhode Island.
Southern US (excluding Florida) probably has the lowest U152 concentrations.

Don't forget those of French-Canadian descent would also be responsible for a substantial portion of American U152s (though that group has contributed a lot of DF27 as well).

rms2
01-29-2021, 02:51 AM
Don't forget those of French-Canadian descent would also be responsible for a substantial portion of American U152s (though that group has contributed a lot of DF27 as well).

French-Canadians were a big source of L21 in the Normandy and Bretagne Projects, at one time anyway.

MitchellSince1893
01-29-2021, 02:54 AM
Don't forget those of French-Canadian descent would also be responsible for a substantial portion of American U152s (though that group has contributed a lot of DF27 as well).
I was getting ready to edit my post...you read my mind. You are right. Upon further investigation

France is roughly 25% U152. Italy by comparison is about 12% U152.
These states have the highest percentages of French ancestry and thus may also have some of the highest U152.
Maine 25.0%
New Hampshire 24.5%
Vermont 23.9%
Rhode Island 17.2%
Louisiana 16.2%
Massachusetts 12.9%
Connecticut 9.9%
Michigan 6.8%
Montana 5.3%
Minnesota 5.3%
Wisconsin 5.0%
North Dakota 4.7%
Washington 4.6%
Oregon 4.6%
Wyoming 4.2%
Alaska 4.2%
Missouri 3.8%
Kansas 3.6%
Indiana 2.7%
Ohio 2.5%

I guess it depends on what part of France and Italy the bulk of this ancestry originated. If it’s Western France and southern Italy, then there isn’t going to be much U152 in those pops.

Edit: found this for what part of France the came from

The provinces that contributed the most to these migrations were those in the northern and western regions of France. The migrants came from Normandy, Aunis, Perche, Brittany, Paris and Île-de-France, Poitou, Maine, Saintonge, and Anjou
As rms said earlier, Brittany is L21 country...maybe 6% U152.
Normandy is probably around 13% U152.
Paris Île-de-France around 16-18% U152
Poitou 15 to 20%
Maine 10-15 %
Saintonge & Anjou 5-10%
So these aren’t the areas of France with the highest U152 concentrations.

Highest concentrations of U152 are those areas near Belgium, the Rhine, Switzerland, and Italy.

Silesian
01-29-2021, 03:21 AM
If possible add Z 2110.

m_etch
01-29-2021, 03:56 AM
I share distant Swiss ancestry with Bush his wife, if I remember from the late Wargs site, the world is small. An interesting question might be which 17th century American has the most presidents among his descendants.

I've wondered about that question, too, because my genealogical research turned up a couple (Anna White and John Porter) who are direct ancestors of Grant, Cleveland and Ford (No, I'm not descended from any of those three!). I don't know the answer but John Wheeler and Agnes Yeoman are direct ancestors of six presidents.

https://famouskin.com/famous-kin-menu.php?name=9331+john+wheeler

https://www.wikitree.com/treewidget/Wheeler-36/102

alejandromb92
01-29-2021, 06:20 AM
If possible add Z 2110.

Is there, R-Z2103.

alejandromb92
01-29-2021, 07:02 AM
French-Canadians were a big source of L21 in the Normandy and Bretagne Projects, at one time anyway.

One example of these L21 norman lines from french-canadians is Matthew LeBlanc, which by the way, is DF63, but fell in other clade than me.

razyn
01-29-2021, 07:54 AM
I prefer a scenario in which U106 + L21 dominate the southern states (specifically Alabama, Louisiana, Georgia, Mississippi, Texas and Arkansas). L21 will dominate in the Carolinas in the Apalachian region, and also in Kentucky, Tennessee and the Virginias.

Finally DF27 would also represent a considerable percentage in Texas, Louisiana and Florida.

I don't think the scenario you prefer is a very close match with what happened, particularly with regard to DF27.

AlfonsoVIII
01-29-2021, 12:29 PM
I don't think the scenario you prefer is a very close match with what happened, particularly with regard to DF27.

Taking into account that in Florida, Latinos make up more than 60% of the population and that in this specific case they descend more or less directly from Spaniards who emigrated to Cuba, Puerto Rico or Venezuela, I would say that it is not at all unreasonable to think that at less than 20% of Florida's paternal haplogroups are DF27.

As for Texas, Latinos are about 30%, although in this case most of them are of Mexican Amerindian origin, so there the DF27 of Iberian origin should be around 5-10%, to which we should add other DF27s of British, Central European and even French origin, we are probably talking about 12-15% DF27.

Although this of course is my speculation.

Silesian
01-29-2021, 12:36 PM
Is there, R-Z2103.

Is there L51? I know L2103 is not big, but a few of the main z2106 or z2109 wouldn't hurt the survey.

alejandromb92
01-29-2021, 12:42 PM
Is there L51? I know L2103 is not big, but a few of the main z2106 or z2109 wouldn't hurt the survey.

Yours belong to Z2103, that's your branch in the poll. I only had 12 spaces to cover up, sorry.

rms2
01-29-2021, 01:24 PM
I must confess the modern distribution of M269 subclades is not all that interesting to me. It's a little bit interesting, but here in the USA the Waring blender has been running at high speed for a long time, sometimes as the warring blender.

That's not to say there aren't vestiges of old history that can still be recognized, but they're growing fainter and fainter.

Webb
01-29-2021, 02:42 PM
U152 makes up 4-5% of US samples in FTDNA Database.
Italian Americans are probably a major contributors to U152 the US, especially northern Italians.
Census data for Italian Americans show higher percentages in New York, New Jersey, Connecticut, Rhode Island, Massachusetts, Pennsylvania, Chicago area, northern Wisconsin, upper peninsula Michigan, Northeast Minnesota, Florida, New Orleans, Nevada, California, Arizona, Oregon.

Much smaller in overall immigrants but rich in U152 are the Swiss. Looking at where Swiss Americans are concentrated
U152 would be concentrated in northwest Oregon/Southwest Washington, northern Utah, southeast Idaho, northeast Kansas/southeast Nebraska, northern Illinois/southern Wisconsin, northwest Indiana, northeast central Ohio, southeast PA, Watertown, NY, northeast West Virginia.

Of course lots of German Americans would be U152+ too.

My guess is U152 has its highest concentration in the US in New York, New Jesery, Connecticut, Rhode Island.
Southern US (excluding Florida) probably has the lowest U152 concentrations.

My own DF27 line came into the Virginia Colonies at the end of the 1600's from Berkshire, England. A distantly related lineage, we share a common ancestor at around 200AD to 400AD, came from Devon into the Virginia Colonies at around the same time. Virginia was a large port of call for Southern and South West England, so U152 might actually be fairly represented, as DF27 and U152 are fairly high in those areas of England. I checked the Underhill-Myres study and U152 was around 16% in Southeast England and 16% in Southwest England.

MitchellSince1893
01-29-2021, 03:25 PM
...Virginia was a large port of call for Southern and South West England, so U152 might actually be fairly represented, as DF27 and U152 are fairly high in those areas of England. I checked the Underhill-Myres study and U152 was around 16% in Southeast England and 16% in Southwest England.
I have no doubt U152 is found in every corner of the US. I was just attempting to identify areas that would potentially have the highest concentrations
According to Abion’s seed the bulk of immigrants from SE England went to the Northern colonies and ~84% of them weren’t U152. But they add numbers to my previous guess (supported by where French and Italian Americans were concentrated) that NE US has the highest concentration of U152.
https://philebersole.files.wordpress.com/2017/07/ukhek32xef_large.jpg

etrusco
01-29-2021, 03:35 PM
I have no doubt U152 is found in every corner of the US. I was just attempting to identify areas that would potentially have the highest concentrations
According to Abion’s seed the bulk of immigrants from SE England went to the Northern colonies and ~84% of them weren’t U152. But they add numbers to my previous guess (supported by where French and Italian Americans were concentrated) that NE US has the highest concentration of U152.
https://philebersole.files.wordpress.com/2017/07/ukhek32xef_large.jpg

Most of the italians that migrated to the USA were from the southern regions of the country. I would dare to say that more than 90% of italo-americans are from the south. So I do not think R1b U152 in the States is of italian origin cause in Italy this line is mostly northern ( with an hotspot in Tuscany).
Since most of the italians that migrated to Argentina and south america were of northern origin you are more likely to have more italian R1b U152 down there than in the USA.

alejandromb92
01-29-2021, 03:47 PM
My own DF27 line came into the Virginia Colonies at the end of the 1600's from Berkshire, England. A distantly related lineage, we share a common ancestor at around 200AD to 400AD, came from Devon into the Virginia Colonies at around the same time. Virginia was a large port of call for Southern and South West England, so U152 might actually be fairly represented, as DF27 and U152 are fairly high in those areas of England. I checked the Underhill-Myres study and U152 was around 16% in Southeast England and 16% in Southwest England.

Is that english U152 (which is mainly L2) of Bell Beaker origins, or from other migration?

MitchellSince1893
01-29-2021, 03:49 PM
Most of the italians that migrated to the USA were from the southern regions of the country. I would dare to say that more than 90% of italo-americans are from the south. So I do not think R1b U152 in the States is of italian origin cause in Italy this line is mostly northern ( with an hotspot in Tuscany).
Since most of the italians that migrated to Argentina and south america were of northern origin you are more likely to have more italian R1b U152 down there than in the USA.

I’ve read similar figures (eg 83% from Sicily).
But the majority of Italian emigration to all countries was from the North 8 vs 6 million
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:%C3%89migration_italienne_par_r%C3%A9gions_18 76-1915.jpg

Also read that southern Italians were more common in New Jersey while Northern Italians were more common in New England and New York...but I have no idea if this is valid.

Webb
01-29-2021, 04:12 PM
I have no doubt U152 is found in every corner of the US. I was just attempting to identify areas that would potentially have the highest concentrations
According to Abion’s seed the bulk of immigrants from SE England went to the Northern colonies and ~84% of them weren’t U152. But they add numbers to my previous guess (supported by where French and Italian Americans were concentrated) that NE US has the highest concentration of U152.
https://philebersole.files.wordpress.com/2017/07/ukhek32xef_large.jpg

The purple/yellow blended area is still more purple than yellow, so Virginia and the South. The red area also went through Virginia, primarily, to access Appalachia. Augusta, Virginia was a very common area for the red area before going into Kentucky and Tennessee. Even some of Germans who went into Pennsylvania early, traveled down through Frederick, Maryland crossing the Potomac into Loudoun, Virginia and worked their way into the Shenandoah Valley, probably bringing some of the blue England people with them into Virginia. So all colors lead to Virginia.

MitchellSince1893
01-29-2021, 04:27 PM
More info on Italian immigrants to US

Between 1820 and 1870, fewer than 25,000 Italian immigrants came to the U.S., mostly from northern Italy. These early arrivals settled in communities all across the country, from the farm towns of New Jersey and the vineyards of California to the ports of San Francisco and New Orleans...
https://www.loc.gov/classroom-materials/immigration/italian/the-great-arrival/

Saw another chart that said between 1880 and 1924, 4 million Italian immigrants came from Southern Italy. I found total stats for those years and it was 4.477 million so yeah 89% were from southern Italy.
U152 ranges from 1.5-18% in southern Italy. On Sicily U152 is 7%.

A WAG is U152 makes up 8.5% of all Italian American men.

Pylsteen
01-29-2021, 04:39 PM
Is that english U152 (which is mainly L2) of Bell Beaker origins, or from other migration?

IMO an accumulation of Bell Beaker, Bronze Age, Iron Age, Roman and medieval immigrations.

MitchellSince1893
01-29-2021, 04:46 PM
The purple/yellow blended area is still more purple than yellow, so Virginia and the South. The red area also went through Virginia, primarily, to access Appalachia. Augusta, Virginia was a very common area for the red area before going into Kentucky and Tennessee. Even some of Germans who went into Pennsylvania early, traveled down through Frederick, Maryland crossing the Potomac into Loudoun, Virginia and worked their way into the Shenandoah Valley, probably bringing some of the blue England people with them into Virginia. So all colors lead to Virginia.
DF27 has higher percentages than U152 in that purple yellow blend or purple area. L21 dominates in red areas. U152 is only strong in yellow area... and to a lesser degree in sparsely populated English Scottish borders region.
So I’m. gonna stick with NE US.

Webb
01-29-2021, 05:13 PM
DF27 has higher percentages than U152 in that purple yellow blend or purple area. L21 dominates in red areas. U152 is only strong in yellow area... and to a lesser degree in sparsely populated English Scottish borders region.
So I’m. gonna stick with NE US.

Yes but you have failed to mention that red and blue make purple, and the map establishes that purple went to Virginia. I hope you realize that I am teasing you.

alejandromb92
01-29-2021, 05:39 PM
IMO an accumulation of Bell Beaker, Bronze Age, Iron Age, Roman and medieval immigrations.

It's interesting because the highest incidence of U152 in the British Isles is in South England, but also DF27.

MitchellSince1893
01-29-2021, 07:11 PM
Yes but you have failed to mention that red and blue make purple, and the map establishes that purple went to Virginia. I hope you realize that I am teasing you.
we need more purple and less blue and red. :)

razyn
01-29-2021, 08:59 PM
According to Albion’s Seed [1989] the bulk of immigrants from SE England went to the Northern colonies and ~84% of them weren’t U152. But they add numbers to my previous guess (supported by where French and Italian Americans were concentrated) that NE US has the highest concentration of U152.

That's one of those good books that never made it into my library. I really ought to get one, or at least check it out when our library reopens. In 1989 when it appeared, I was in the last throes of publishing a lot of research I had been doing about colonial Swedes and Finns. Did not spend much of my time during the 1980s on Albion.

Anyhow, some years prior to that, I did hang out some with cultural geographers, such as (the late) Terry Jordan and Milton Newton. And in that connection I was one of the more junior folklorists involved in the organizational stages of SNACS, a now-obscure effort toward production of something similar to the national atlases of folk culture, then available e.g. for Austria and several of the Nordic countries. I attended the March, 1975 meeting of SNACS, at Texas A&M. So, I was into these mapping projects before DNA was a thing one might map. https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/00221347608980354

Somewhere, I have my copy of the "Scratch Atlas" being circulated by SNACS in 1975 as an example of relevant work (they called it "dottable data") already available. It was about four pounds of xeroxed pages, in a large format, maybe 11x17 inches. I should find that.

Garimund
01-29-2021, 09:26 PM
DF27 has higher percentages than U152 in that purple yellow blend or purple area. L21 dominates in red areas. U152 is only strong in yellow area... and to a lesser degree in sparsely populated English Scottish borders region.
So I’m. gonna stick with NE US.

I’m a Purple/Yellow blend DF27 to colonial Virginia.

MitchellSince1893
01-29-2021, 09:50 PM
...Anyhow, some years prior to that, I did hang out some with cultural geographers, such as (the late) Terry Jordan and Milton Newton. And in that connection I was one of the more junior folklorists involved in the organizational stages of SNACS, a now-obscure effort toward production of something similar to the national atlases of folk culture, then available e.g. for Austria and several of the Nordic countries...
My undergrad was in International Studies. If I had a “do over” think I would have done Cultural or Demographic Geography instead.

Webb
01-29-2021, 10:40 PM
I quickly went through the Webb Surname DNA project. It’s a good project to look at because it is a fairly common English occupational surname. There are over 30 unrelated lineage groups. I looked at the ones that had done downstream snp testing. There are still a number of the lineage groups that are just M269. I didn’t count those kits, such as myself that are in ungrouped section. 7 U106, 6 L21, 2 DF27, 1 U152, and 1 ZZ37.

MitchellSince1893
01-31-2021, 07:54 AM
...I’m. gonna stick with NE US.
Out of curiosity, I used 2000 US census ancestry data and Busby/Myres data for U152 percentages and got the following as the top tier states percentage wise for U152. First 3 are probably the top 3.
Maine
New Hampshire
Vermont
Wisconsin
North Dakota
Rhode Island
Iowa
Minnesota
Nebraska
Kansas
South Dakota
Ohio
Montana
Connecticut


Bottom 10 were
Nevada
South Carolina
Alabama
Georgia
Texas
California
Mississippi
District of Columbia
New Mexico
Hawaii

Take the above with a grain of salt as I has to make quite a few assumptions...but it's a good a guess as any.

alejandromb92
01-31-2021, 08:48 AM
12+1 DF27, wow... And less than half of them are from the iberian peninsula.

rms2
01-31-2021, 04:45 PM
It's kind of odd: L21 participation at Anthrogenica is way down, at least as evidenced by the results of this poll.

We used to have a pretty large crowd of active L21 guys here. Of course, a few of them have managed to get themselves banned over the years.

Still, only 10 L21 votes thus far. That's nothing.

alejandromb92
01-31-2021, 05:32 PM
It's kind of odd: L21 participation at Anthrogenica is way down, at least as evidenced by the results of this poll.

We used to have a pretty large crowd of active L21 guys here. Of course, a few of them have managed to get themselves banned over the years.

Still, only 10 L21 votes thus far. That's nothing.

They all seem to be irish (except me).

jdean
01-31-2021, 05:40 PM
It's kind of odd: L21 participation at Anthrogenica is way down, at least as evidenced by the results of this poll.

We used to have a pretty large crowd of active L21 guys here. Of course, a few of them have managed to get themselves banned over the years.

Still, only 10 L21 votes thus far. That's nothing.

11 now : )

rms2
01-31-2021, 06:27 PM
They all seem to be irish (except me).

There certainly are a lot of L21 guys with Irish Y-DNA lines.

I have some Irish ancestry, but my Y-DNA line is Welsh, and there are plenty of other guys with non-Irish L21 lines.

My maternal grandfather was L21, as well, and his line came from SW England (Devon).

alejandromb92
01-31-2021, 06:41 PM
There certainly are a lot L21 guys with Irish Y-DNA lines.

I have some Irish ancestry, but my Y-DNA line is Welsh, and there are plenty of other guys with non-Irish L21 lines.

My maternal grandfather was L21, as well, and his line came from SW England (Devon).

I thought you were irish actually. You got 2 L21 non-irish L21 lines in your family, and both DF13, which is super-predominant in Ireland. I know that is the major clade in Wales and have a strong presence in England, but Ireland is the champ here, we got to admit it.

rms2
01-31-2021, 06:47 PM
I thought you were irish actually. You got 2 L21 non-irish L21 lines in your family, and both DF13, which is super-predominant in Ireland. I know that is the major clade in Wales and have a strong presence in England, but Ireland is the champ here, we got to admit it.

True, and I've been to Ireland twice and really really enjoyed it. Knowing I was L21+ when I went there made me feel right at home, and the people are super nice and make everyone feel at home anyway.

The first time I went I even managed to recruit one of the hosts at the bed-and-breakfast in County Clare where we stayed for Y-DNA testing with FTDNA. He turned out to be one of Robert Casey's L226 guys, surname Hogan, which is one of the families descended from Brian Boru.

MitchellSince1893
01-31-2021, 08:37 PM
Out of curiosity, I used 2000 US census ancestry data and Busby/Myres data for U152 percentages and got the following as the top tier states percentage wise for U152. First 3 are probably the top 3.
Maine
New Hampshire
Vermont
Wisconsin
North Dakota
Rhode Island
Iowa
Minnesota
Nebraska
Kansas
South Dakota
Ohio
Montana
Connecticut


Bottom 10 were
Nevada
South Carolina
Alabama
Georgia
Texas
California
Mississippi
District of Columbia
New Mexico
Hawaii

Take the above with a grain of salt as I has to make quite a few assumptions...but it's a good a guess as any.

I kept going with this and here are the results using 2000 US census ancestry data, Busby-Myres data, FTDNA data and other sources.

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/75/af/ca/75afca5e452f3c48b7d9237f39e5efb3.png?epik=dj0yJnU9 Wmx1TVFEY0lpb0thZTRQWWtFdDZ6TVBuaE1KdEs0czEmcD0wJm 49SlBqaF9GcXFIZFVxNFhIZjVqeVR2ZyZ0PUFBQUFBR0FYRkZj

From highest New Hampshire (6.59%) to lowest (Hawaii)
New Hampshire
North Dakota
Maine
Vermont
Wisconsin
Minnesota
South Dakota
Rhode Island
Montana
Washington
Connecticut
Nebraska
Iowa
Ohio
Missouri
Kansas
Pennsylvania
Massachusetts
Wyoming
Utah
Indiana
Michigan
Oregon
Idaho
Colorado
West Virginia
Louisiana
Delaware
Kentucky
Maryland
Illinois
Virginia
New Jersey
New York
North Carolina
Tennessee
Alaska
South Carolina
Arizona
Arkansas
Florida
Nevada
Georgia
Oklahoma
Alabama
Texas
Mississippi
California
New Mexico
District of Columbia
Hawaii

etrusco
01-31-2021, 08:59 PM
I kept going with this and here are the results using 2000 US census ancestry data, Busby-Myres data, FTDNA data and other sources.

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/75/af/ca/75afca5e452f3c48b7d9237f39e5efb3.png?epik=dj0yJnU9 Wmx1TVFEY0lpb0thZTRQWWtFdDZ6TVBuaE1KdEs0czEmcD0wJm 49SlBqaF9GcXFIZFVxNFhIZjVqeVR2ZyZ0PUFBQUFBR0FYRkZj

From highest New Hampshire (6.59%) to lowest (Hawaii)
New Hampshire
North Dakota
Maine
Vermont
Wisconsin
Minnesota
South Dakota
Rhode Island
Montana
Washington
Connecticut
Nebraska
Iowa
Ohio
Missouri
Kansas
Pennsylvania
Massachusetts
Wyoming
Utah
Indiana
Michigan
Oregon
Idaho
Colorado
West Virginia
Louisiana
Delaware
Kentucky
Maryland
Illinois
Virginia
New Jersey
New York
North Carolina
Tennessee
Alaska
South Carolina
Arizona
Arkansas
Florida
Nevada
Georgia
Oklahoma
Alabama
Texas
Mississippi
California
New Mexico
District of Columbia
Hawaii

As I predicted R1b U152 in the States is 100% of west Germanic origin. Perhaps with a tad French origin in New England.

JoeyP37
01-31-2021, 09:10 PM
Really? My stepfather is U152, and he is 7/8 Italian and 1/8 Irish; his paternal line is Italian in origin. Of course I am 1/8 Italian, so I say together we make a whole Italian. I believe his male line is Campanian in origin.

MitchellSince1893
01-31-2021, 09:17 PM
As I predicted R1b U152 in the States is 100% of west Germanic origin. Perhaps with a tad French origin in New England.
100% west Germanic isn’t reflective of how the map was made.

For example 8.5% of Italian are estimated to be U152. Also there are Irish, Poles, Czechs, Hispanics, African Americans, Portuguese that are contributing small percentages too.

alejandromb92
01-31-2021, 09:25 PM
True, and I've been to Ireland twice and really really enjoyed it. Knowing I was L21+ when I went there made me feel right at home, and the people are super nice and make everyone feel at home anyway.

The first time I went I even managed to recruit one of the hosts at the bed-and-breakfast in County Clare where we stayed for Y-DNA testing with FTDNA. He turned out to be one of Robert Casey's L226 guys, surname Hogan, which is one of the families descended from Brian Boru.

That's so cool! I didn't know who was King Brian Boru, i knew the history of King Niall who was R-M222 and so their descendants around the world. It's very cool that a country like Ireland and it's people could trace their lines to their former kings, it's fascinating to me. I am more fond to visit the Highlands of Scotland, i am far away genetically from them but my Y-DNA might come from there, knowing the big frecuency of DF63 there and the almost unexistance where my line comes from.

FionnSneachta
02-01-2021, 11:31 PM
We are lucky that it is a possibility in Ireland. My dad's Y-DNA test proved descent from Tadhg Mór O'Kelly who fought and died in the Battle of Clontarf alongside Brian Boru in 1014. It is interesting to know how your ancestors would be in conflict in the past with ancestors of modern day descendants. Just for example, I know that my neighbours descend from the O'Conor Dons. It's funny to know that our families were often times in conflict while at other times allies centuries ago. Just a few examples of the O'Conors and O'Kellys crossing paths from biographies by Emmett O'Byrne. You get the idea from just reading one of the paragraphs.

Conchobar O'Kelly (d. 1268) was loyal throughout the O'Conor campaigns against the O'Reillys of west Breifne, as he was present at the decisive defeat of the O'Reillys at the battle of Magh Slécht (September 1256). Still, he does seem to have deeply resented the imposition of the O'Conor yoke upon his kingdom. However, he was eager to avoid the fate of the O'Rourke kings of west Breifne, whose succession resembled a game of musical chairs due to persistent O'Connor interference. As for many others of the Connacht nobility, Conchobar's chance came in the aftermath of the defeat of the O'Connors and the O'Neills at the battle of Down (15 May 1260). This defeat prompted a widespread explosion of violence against Fedlimid O'Conor and his son Áed. Leading the charge were Domnall O'Rourke (d. 1260), king of west Breifne, and Conchobar. The revolt of the O'Rourkes was brutally crushed by Áed, who then turned his attention to Conchobar, burning his residence above his head. This timely reminder and the brutal example that was made of the O'Rourkes convinced the taciturn Conchobar that enough was enough. Accordingly, he returned to the O'Connor fold and renewed his allegiance, knowing that peace was as much in their interest as his. Thus, he preserved his kingdom and his line from the fate visited by the O'Connors upon the O'Rourkes.

In 1356, Uilliam Buidhe O'Kelly (grandson of Conchobar) procured the assassination of Aodh who was the son of Toirrdelbach O'Conor (King of Connacht) by Donnchadh Carrach O'Kelly. The reason for this was that Aodh had earlier kidnapped Uilliam Buidhe's wife, the daughter of John Burke. On another occasion with his Burke son-in-law, Uilliam Buidhe lined up with King Aodh O'Connor of Connacht against the Burkes of Clanricard. Due to their firm alliance with Thomas Burke of Clanwilliam, the O'Kellys found themselves in continual opposition throughout the 1370s to Ruaidhrí O'Conor (d. 1384), king of Connacht, and doggedly tried to weaken the power of the provincial king.

In 1377, Maolsheachlainn O'Kelly (son of Uilliam Buidhe) and his Burke brotherin-law surrounded Ruaidhrí O'Conor's fortress of Roscommon castle. In a pitched battle before the castle, Ruaidhrí and his MacDermot allies destroyed the forces of the Clanwilliam Burkes and the O'Kellys. Maolsheachlainn was married to Fionnuala (d. 1403), daughter of Toirrdelbach O'Conor (d. 1345). Maolsheachlainn's major chance came with the death (25 November 1384) of Ruaidhrí O'Connor, after which the O'Connor dynasty was torn asunder by the competing interests of the Don and Roe factions. Within days of Ruaidhrí's burial both factions proclaimed rival kings. One was Toirdhealbhach Ruadh O'Connor, who had the support of the MacWilliam Burkes, the MacDermots of Magh Luirg (Moylurg), and the Clan Murtagh branch of the O'Connors; while Toirdhealbhach Óg O'Connor (d. 1406) was inaugurated as king of Connacht by Maolsheachlainn in the presence of the Clanricard Burkes, the O'Connors of Sligo, and the MacDonaghs. In 1385 a ferocious and long-lasting struggle erupted. During the course of that year Toirdhealbhach Ruadh, Mac Dermot, and the Clan Murtagh O'Connors invaded Uí Mhaine, setting the town of the son of Edmund O'Kelly aflame. Maolsheachlainn's alliance with the O'Conor Dons had fragmented by 1392, leading to an invasion of Uí Mhaine by Toirdhealbhach Óg, MacDonagh, the O'Rourkes, and the Clan Murtagh O'Connors. However, Maolsheachlainn quickly turned to his former enemy Toirdhealbhach Ruadh and called on him to come to his defence. Eager to have the O'Kellys in his camp, Toirdhealbhach Ruadh hurried to the aid of Maolsheachlainn, catching Toirdhealbhach Óg's forces off guard and inflicting serious losses on them.

Aodh O'Kelly (d. 1467) (grandson of Maolsheachlainn), king of Uí Mhaine, had his first action of note as king in 1426, when he, with the O'Connor Roes, attacked Ballintober castle, belonging to the O'Connor Dons. In 1435 he, with MacDermot of Magh Luirg and Tadhg O'Connor Ruadh, attacked Ballintober castle and burned its bawn above the heads of its O'Connor Don defenders. As the 1440s wore on, it seems the power of Aodh's kingship declined. This appears to have been due to the growing ambitions of the sons of Uilliam Ruadh (his uncle) and their rivals, the sons of Donnchadh (another uncle). In 1451 the simmering tensions between these rivals exploded in an all-out O'Kelly civil war. From what happened next, it is clear that Aodh had developed a new alliance with Aodh O'Connor Don (d. 1461). Then the O'Connor Dons marched into Uí Mhaine to protect Aodh from his kinsmen. The price of such protection was high: Aodh was forced to acknowledge O'Connor Don supremacy, giving a son as a hostage. The O'Connor Don overlord also sought to reassert control over the region known as Sith, which the O'Kellys had bought from his father. Indeed, he forced the O'Kellys to render to him a rent of twenty marks for Sith and a further six marks to the MacKeoghs of Moyfinn, a collateral branch of the O'Kellys. When Aodh objected, the O'Connor Don proved too strong for him. In 1472, a peace meeting between O'Kelly and O'Conor Don fails. Many killed in the fighting that resulted.

You do wonder sometimes what the people of the past would make of the world now. There was just so much conflict back then between different counties and kingdoms. I'm only confident of descent from Maolsheachlainn but descent from Aodh is only suspected at the moment.

MitchellSince1893
02-03-2021, 03:33 PM
I kept going with this and here are the results using 2000 US census ancestry data, Busby-Myres data, FTDNA data and other sources.


Since I posted above, I found a more detailed 2000 census source for ancestry breakdown per state and have been working through it ever since I posted above. In my new analysis I’ve included any relevant group with ~700,000 or more people.

This includes African American, American, British, Austrian, Cuban, Czech, Czechoslovak, Slovak, Dane, Dutch, English, French, German, Greek, Hungarian, Irish, Italian, Mexican, and other Latin American pops, Native American, Norwegian, Pole, Portuguese, Puerto Rican, Russian, Scottish, Scot-Irish, Swedes/other Scandinavians, Swiss, Ukrainians, and Welsh. I’ve been using Busby, Myres and FTDNA data (FTDNA’s US testing bias is actually a plus in this situation), census and emigration data (e.g. for what parts of France, Germany, Italy most immigrants came from) to further refine U152 percentages.

I’m still working through it. The general trend above is still holding, but I’ve had account/adjust for the listing of multiple ancestry by individuals which particularly inflated the Northern Plains states U152 percentages.

But I appear to wrong about where the highest percentage for U152 is found in the US. It’s not the New England states (although they are near the top of the list)...

It’s Puerto Rico. I was reading last night why this might be the case. Puerto Rico has had significant immigration from France, Germany, Catalan region and Corsica. All of these areas have higher than average U152 percentages, especially Corsica which is amongst the highest anywhere.

Once I’m done I will post the more detailed results.

MitchellSince1893
02-07-2021, 07:04 AM
...
Once I’m done I will post the more detailed results.
New results posted here
https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?22924-U152-percentages-in-US-states-based-on-2000-Census-ancestry-data&p=745226#post745226

Osiris
02-07-2021, 08:08 AM
Out of curiosity, I used 2000 US census ancestry data and Busby/Myres data for U152 percentages and got the following as the top tier states percentage wise for U152. First 3 are probably the top 3.
Maine
New Hampshire
Vermont
Wisconsin
North Dakota
Rhode Island
Iowa
Minnesota
Nebraska
Kansas
South Dakota
Ohio
Montana
Connecticut


Bottom 10 were
Nevada
South Carolina
Alabama
Georgia
Texas
California
Mississippi
District of Columbia
New Mexico
Hawaii

Take the above with a grain of salt as I has to make quite a few assumptions...but it's a good a guess as any.
Amusingly enough my line has been well blended as I'm a U152 from Hawaii. Near as I can tell we were German immigrants to first PA about 1750. Then to NC then TN then TX looking for land to farm. WWII gave us lots of opportunities which we went to CA to enjoy where my dad's got a step father who was in the Navy and got placed in Hawaii where my dad met my mom and I was born and still live. U152 and even L2 are way to large for me to even attempt to understand so I start at my first small haplogroup which is A6454. I believe I know all that have tested at that level.

Osiris
02-08-2021, 07:05 AM
I am the exception though in my section of the Y tree. Most of them are my distant Y cousins are still in TN, AR and the area around there.