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J Man
01-28-2021, 03:09 PM
I am starting this thread so it can be a place where folks here can discuss this very interesting subclade of J2a. J-PH1795 has been found among ancient Saka, Altai Iron Age and Turkic samples of Central Asia, Altai, Siberia and Mongolia so far and I am sure that more will show up in ancient samples from these areas once more are tested. It seems pretty clear now that J-PH1795 is very likely a clade that originated among the BMAC farmers of Central Asia that was absorbed into early Iranic speaking groups that evolved into the Scythians and Saka. Some of these ancient Eastern Iranic speaking groups were important components in the ethnogenesis of the early Turkic speaking peoples and subsequently J-PH1795 was transferred into the early Turks of Central Asia and Mongolia. The ancient Altai Sary-Bel sample and Siberian Kytmanovo samples are both part of this clade. It has also shown up among ancient Saka, Xiongnu, Turk, and Khitan samples from Central Asia and Mongolia as well. The modern day distribution of J-PH1795 matches up with this very well actually. It is found mainly among modern day Turkic speaking groups and in areas that had former Turkic speakers and cultures. Interestingly enough it has even been found in modern people deep into China.

https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-PH1795/

RCO
01-28-2021, 07:47 PM
BMAC and Gonur had Y-DNA J and J1 haplogroup with temples, fire temples and fire altar, floral remains like soma, the presence of ephedra at Gonur is taken by Sarianidi as further testimony to the Indo-Iranian and Proto-Zoroastrian identity of the Bactrian Margiana complex, along with the presence of constructions, forts, palaces, bronze and silver craftsmanship and metalwork, lapis lazuli, warrior tombs, bronze knife, silver plate, bronze vessel, bronze mace head in the form of a horse head, bronze mace head with four spikes, bronze semi-cylindrical artifact near the head, the tomb or cist 3900 had chariot's wheels horses and now we know some of the most important burials there had Y-DNA J2 and J1 haplogroups, just like the ruler or warrior tomb (J1) so they belonged to the Ancient Iranian Peoples, the first archaeologically documented sites in terms of complexity and urban life and occupation just like Gonur.

davit
01-28-2021, 08:06 PM
BMAC and Gonur had Y-DNA J and J1 haplogroup with temples, fire temples and fire altar, floral remains like soma, the presence of ephedra at Gonur is taken by Sarianidi as further testimony to the Indo-Iranian and Proto-Zoroastrian identity of the Bactrian Margiana complex, along with the presence of constructions, forts, palaces, bronze and silver craftsmanship and metalwork, lapis lazuli, warrior tombs, bronze knife, silver plate, bronze vessel, bronze mace head in the form of a horse head, bronze mace head with four spikes, bronze semi-cylindrical artifact near the head, the tomb or cist 3900 had chariot's wheels horses and now we know some of the most important burials there had Y-DNA J2 and J1 haplogroups, just like the ruler or warrior tomb (J1) so they belonged to the Ancient Iranian Peoples, the first archaeologically documented sites in terms of complexity and urban life and occupation just like Gonur.

None of that is actual evidence for the Indo-Iranian character of the BMAC. If the BMAC was Ind-Iranian please explain why no Indo-European languages came from adjacent cultures. And why Indo-Iranian is so close to Balto-Slavic and why Indo-Iranian loanwords exist in Finno-Ugric.

RCO
01-28-2021, 09:01 PM
Anatolian languages like Hittite were considered the earliest to split from the Proto-Indo-European language, Tocharian, with proposed links to the Afanasevo (certified J1 also there) culture of Southern Siberia was also another basal Indo-European split. In the Steppe we can only find a new admixed population from the South (Iran_CHG_Central-Asia) and North (EHG Eastern Hunter-Gatherer), a new derived population, latecomers with a new hybrid population and language, so BMAC was part of the first original Ancient Iranian Continuum.

Coldmountains
01-28-2021, 09:22 PM
Anatolian languages like Hittite were considered the earliest to split from the Proto-Indo-European language, Tocharian, with proposed links to the Afanasevo (certified J1 also there) culture of Southern Siberia was also another basal Indo-European split. In the Steppe we can only find a new admixed population from the South (Iran_CHG_Central-Asia) and North (EHG Eastern Hunter-Gatherer), a new derived population, latecomers with a new hybrid population and language, so BMAC was part of the first original Ancient Iranian Continuum.

well considering that we have early Indo-Iranian samples from Sintashta, Andronovo and even Uzbekistan clustering with Bell Beakers in Germany, Corded Ware in Sweden and Swiss it is even more likely PII came from Poland or Germany than anywhere east of the Urals or Central Asia.

But the role of BMAC for later Indo-Iranians in Asia can not be overstated and is of course the dominant one in terms of material culture and overall genetic admixture. We also don't really see much evidence for violence or destruction during the arrival of Steppe_MLBA groups rather they adopted the local material culture quickly and very likely merged into the local socio-political structures. The result was a Steppe-BMAC hybrid culture, which we than see expanding into South Asia, West Asia and to some extent even back to North Eurasia (BMAC admix among Saka and some Scythians)

davit
01-28-2021, 09:28 PM
Anatolian languages like Hittite were considered the earliest to split from the Proto-Indo-European language, Tocharian, with proposed links to the Afanasevo (certified J1 also there) culture of Southern Siberia was also another basal Indo-European split. In the Steppe we can only find a new admixed population from the South (Iran_CHG_Central-Asia) and North (EHG Eastern Hunter-Gatherer), a new derived population, latecomers with a new hybrid population and language, so BMAC was part of the first original Ancient Iranian Continuum.

1 J1 in Afanasievo out of how many? And who does Afanasievo cluster with? Hint: Not the BMAC or anything from Iran

J Man
01-28-2021, 09:42 PM
BMAC and Gonur had Y-DNA J and J1 haplogroup with temples, fire temples and fire altar, floral remains like soma, the presence of ephedra at Gonur is taken by Sarianidi as further testimony to the Indo-Iranian and Proto-Zoroastrian identity of the Bactrian Margiana complex, along with the presence of constructions, forts, palaces, bronze and silver craftsmanship and metalwork, lapis lazuli, warrior tombs, bronze knife, silver plate, bronze vessel, bronze mace head in the form of a horse head, bronze mace head with four spikes, bronze semi-cylindrical artifact near the head, the tomb or cist 3900 had chariot's wheels horses and now we know some of the most important burials there had Y-DNA J2 and J1 haplogroups, just like the ruler or warrior tomb (J1) so they belonged to the Ancient Iranian Peoples, the first archaeologically documented sites in terms of complexity and urban life and occupation just like Gonur.

I highly doubt that Gonur and BMAC peoples spoke early Indo-Iranian languages. Most likely they were non-IE speakers. Some of them seem to have mixed with Indo-Iranian speakers though and expanded in different directions with them as Coldmountains already mentioned. J-PH1795 is very likely a good example of this scenario.

RCO
01-28-2021, 11:14 PM
Everybody is free to imagine everything and we don't know about Indo-Iranian speakers where we don't have records, the fact is that Gonur and BMAC peoples had a complete classical Indo-Iranian archaeological culture. Have you ever found any J-PH1795 modern Iranian speaking branch in Iran ? There are and there were several different languages in Central Asia.

J Man
04-02-2021, 05:42 PM
Fascinating to see that the medieval Turkic era KKB001 sample from Eastern Kazakhstan has turned out to be J-PH1795. He is most likely under the Y152278 subclade of J-PH1795.

Ahmed Nasef
04-03-2021, 12:28 PM
It is sad that CHK004 is of low quality. I still believe that J-PH1795 is widespread in central Asia and that only the eastern samples were discovered, it is likely that the branch split a long time ago where one branch remained in the Altay region and surrounding areas where the other branch migrated west to Uzbekistan and Turkmenistan and then entered Anatolia as Seljuk Oghuz Turkic around 1000-1100 AD. It is sad that these region populations are poor and unwilling to take Y-DNA tests even when offered to them.

J Man
04-03-2021, 01:31 PM
It is sad that CHK004 is of low quality. I still believe that J-PH1795 is widespread in central Asia and that only the eastern samples were discovered, it is likely that the branch split a long time ago where one branch remained in the Altay region and surrounding areas where the other branch migrated west to Uzbekistan and Turkmenistan and then entered Anatolia as Seljuk Oghuz Turkic around 1000-1100 AD. It is sad that these region populations are poor and unwilling to take Y-DNA tests even when offered to them.

What we need are early medieval era Oghuz samples from Western Kazakhstan to be tested.

J Man
04-08-2021, 04:12 PM
I made a slight mistake in my original post in this thread. I said that J-PH1795 has been found among a Saka sample which is actually incorrect. Here below are all of the confirmed J2a2-PH1795 ancient results that have been found so far. I listed the dates for the samples that have been effectively radiocarbon dated.


Ancient J-PH1795:


Allentoft et al. 2015-

Sary-Bel Iron Age (Altai)
Kytmanovo 721-889 AD (Siberia)



Jeong et al. 2020-

TUH002 Arkhangai, Mongolia, Xiongnu Period (Mongolia)

UGU001 Selenge, Mongolia, Early Medieval Turk 687-711 AD (Mongolia)

ZAA005 Bulgan, Mongolia, Late Medieval Khitan 1025-1155 AD (Mongolia)

ULA001 Bulgan, Mongolia, Late Medieval Khitan 1033-1159 AD (Mongolia)


GA Gnecchi-Ruscone 2021-

CHK004 Chilpek 722-885 AD (Kyrgyzstan)

KKB001 Karakaba 775-887 AD (Kazakhstan)

Ahmed Nasef
04-08-2021, 04:44 PM
I made a slight mistake in my original post in this thread. I said that J-PH1795 has been found among a Saka sample which is actually incorrect. Here below are all of the confirmed J2a2-PH1795 ancient results that have been found so far. I listed the dates for the samples that have been effectively radiocarbon dated.


Ancient J-PH1795:


Allentoft et al. 2015-

Sary-Bel Iron Age (Altai)
Kytmanovo 721-889 AD (Siberia)



Jeong et al. 2020-

TUH002 Arkhangai, Mongolia, Xiongnu Period (Mongolia)

UGU001 Selenge, Mongolia, Early Medieval Turk 687-711 AD (Mongolia)

ZAA005 Bulgan, Mongolia, Late Medieval Khitan 1025-1155 AD (Mongolia)

ULA001 Bulgan, Mongolia, Late Medieval Khitan 1033-1159 AD (Mongolia)


GA Gnecchi-Ruscone 2021-

CHK004 Chilpek 722-885 AD (Kyrgyzstan)

KKB001 Karakaba 775-887 AD (Kazakhstan)

It is sad that Y-full rejected adding the 4 samples from Mongolia because of their low quality. I hope they accept KKB001 at least.