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Squad
02-02-2021, 07:04 AM
Yfull has a pretty big Saudi sample size, 3067 when I made the count. Haplogroup J1 makes up more than 51% of the total. Frequencies for the main sub-haplogroups are given below, with those reaching 1% or more in bold : as expected, J-FGC11 dominates at 80.85%, followed by J-Z640 at 4.49%, J-YSC76 at 3.67%, J-ZS5383 at 3.6%, J-FGC4745 at 2.4% and J-L860 at 1.49%.

J1b-Y6313 = 0.06%
J1a1-Z2215
-- J-Y29696 = 0.13%
-- J-Z2217
---- J-CTS1026 = 0.13%
---- J-L620
------ J-PF4816
--------- J-ZS4393
---------- J-ZS4416 = 0.19%
---------- J-P56 = 0.63%
--------- J-P58
----------- J-ZS12519 = 0.06%
----------- J-CTS9721
------------- J-Y4067
--------------- J-L817 = 0.06%
--------------- J-ZS5383 = 3.60%
------------- J-Z643
--------------- J-BY145013 = 0.06%
--------------- J-Y16646 = 0.70%
--------------- J-Z1865
----------------- J-L860 = 1.49%
----------------- J-Z1853
------------------- J-ZS3683 = 0.76%
------------------- J-Z2331
--------------------- J-Z2324
----------------------- J-YP4763 = 0.06%
----------------------- J-Z2317
------------------------- J-Z2313
--------------------------- J-Z2313* = 0.06%
--------------------------- J-YSC234
----------------------------- J-YSC234* = 0.13%
----------------------------- J-ZS6178 = 0.25%
----------------------------- J-FGC4745 = 2.40%
----------------------------- J-Y3081 = 0.25%
----------------------------- J-Z1884
------------------------------- J-Z640 = 4.49%
------------------------------- J-YSC76 = 3.67%
------------------------------- J-FGC11 = 80.85%

Jatt1
02-02-2021, 07:26 AM
Yfull has a pretty big Saudi sample size, 3067 when I made the count. Haplogroup J1 makes up more than 51% of the total. Frequencies for the main sub-haplogroups are given below, with those reaching 1% or more in bold : as expected, J-FGC11 dominates at 80.85%, followed by J-Z640 at 4.49%, J-YSC76 at 3.67%, J-ZS5383 at 3.6%, J-FGC4745 at 2.4% and J-L860 at 1.49%.

J1b-Y6313 = 0.06%
J1a1-Z2215
-- J-Y29696 = 0.13%
-- J-Z2217
---- J-CTS1026 = 0.13%
---- J-L620
------ J-PF4816
--------- J-ZS4393
---------- J-ZS4416 = 0.19%
---------- J-P56 = 0.63%
--------- J-P58
----------- J-ZS12519 = 0.06%
----------- J-CTS9721
------------- J-Y4067
--------------- J-L817 = 0.06%
--------------- J-ZS5383 = 3.60%
------------- J-Z643
--------------- J-BY145013 = 0.06%
--------------- J-Y16646 = 0.70%
--------------- J-Z1865
----------------- J-L860 = 1.49%
----------------- J-Z1853
------------------- J-ZS3683 = 0.76%
------------------- J-Z2331
--------------------- J-Z2324
----------------------- J-YP4763 = 0.06%
----------------------- J-Z2317
------------------------- J-Z2313
--------------------------- J-Z2313* = 0.06%
--------------------------- J-YSC234
----------------------------- J-YSC234* = 0.13%
----------------------------- J-ZS6178 = 0.25%
----------------------------- J-FGC4745 = 2.40%
----------------------------- J-Y3081 = 0.25%
----------------------------- J-Z1884
------------------------------- J-Z640 = 4.49%
------------------------------- J-YSC76 = 3.67%
------------------------------- J-FGC11 = 80.85%

What are you trying to say?

RCO
02-02-2021, 02:41 PM
1b-Y6313 = 0.06%
J1a1-Z2215
-- J-Y29696 = 0.13%
-- J-Z2217
---- J-CTS1026 = 0.13%
---- J-L620
-----J-FGC6064
------ J-PF4816
-------J-ZS6599

I remember in 2006 when I discovered that I was J1 (Brazilian Portuguese and Christian) and I always told my clade was completely different from the Semitic and Arab clades. Our J1-FGC6064 or J1-ZS6599 are almost only found in Northern Middle Eastern regions, some are very ancient Iranian clades with 12000 ybp ramifications while Arab clades are extremely recent and shallow in phylogenetic terms.

Jatt1
02-03-2021, 02:59 AM
1b-Y6313 = 0.06%
J1a1-Z2215
-- J-Y29696 = 0.13%
-- J-Z2217
---- J-CTS1026 = 0.13%
---- J-L620
-----J-FGC6064
------ J-PF4816
-------J-ZS6599

I remember in 2006 when I discovered that I was J1 (Brazilian Portuguese and Christian) and I always told my clade was completely different from the Semitic and Arab clades. Our J1-FGC6064 or J1-ZS6599 are almost only found in Northern Middle Eastern regions, some are very ancient Iranian clades with 12000 ybp ramifications while Arab clades are extremely recent and shallow in phylogenetic terms.

Earlier posted by Parasar.

Yes that would not surprise as most of the Dzudzuana's autosomal ancestry was deeply related western European hunter-gatherers.

LGM Satsurblia is similar.
"SAT29 shares more drift with Villabruna (Italy, 12140Ī70 bp) (Fu et al., 2016) and Dzudzuana2 than with other ancient individuals (Figure S3A), including the post-LGM individuals from the Caucasus (Satsurblia and Kotias). Among present-day Eurasian populations, SAT29 shows higher genetic affinity to Northern and Western Europeans rather than Central and Southern Asians (Figure S3B)."
https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.01.08.425895v1


Post LGM CHG and Iran mesolithic are very different.
"Populations for which the ancient Caucasus genomes are best ancestral approximations include those of the Southern Caucasus and interestingly, South and Central Asia."

We see that with WC1 vs Barcin too. They clearly 'wintered' the LGM in very different locations.
Modern-day peoples with affinity to WC1

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tipirneni
02-03-2021, 03:17 AM
1b-Y6313 = 0.06%
J1a1-Z2215
-- J-Y29696 = 0.13%
-- J-Z2217
---- J-CTS1026 = 0.13%
---- J-L620
-----J-FGC6064
------ J-PF4816
-------J-ZS6599

I remember in 2006 when I discovered that I was J1 (Brazilian Portuguese and Christian) and I always told my clade was completely different from the Semitic and Arab clades. Our J1-FGC6064 or J1-ZS6599 are almost only found in Northern Middle Eastern regions, some are very ancient Iranian clades with 12000 ybp ramifications while Arab clades are extremely recent and shallow in phylogenetic terms.

Maybe it is the cult of Zahhak Tayyi who took over the prehistoric Iran until cult of Magi took over by gaining independence from Semitic people
According to Persian legend, Zahak was a member of the Arabian “Tayyi” tribe [alt. Banu Ta’i].

RCO
02-03-2021, 10:10 AM
Y-DNA J1 conquered Arabia in the Bronze Age just like R1b conquered Western Europe in the Bronze Age and both originally moved from the vicinity of the Caspian Sea with some similar CHG_Iran components.

davit
02-03-2021, 10:13 AM
Y-DNA J1 conquered Arabia in the Bronze Age just like R1b conquered Western Europe in the Bronze Age and both originally moved from the vicinity of the Caspian Sea with some similar CHG_Iran components.

R1b is from North of the Caspian Sea and moved with EHG and CHG components. Only thing they have in common is the CHG part.

RCO
02-03-2021, 10:40 AM
Yes and the CHG_Iran part is the big question. We can find R1b in the South of the Caspian Sea in the Gilak population with a good proportion of R1b, R1a, J1, J2.

Squad
02-04-2021, 09:03 AM
Y-DNA J1 conquered Arabia in the Bronze Age just like R1b conquered Western Europe in the Bronze Age and both originally moved from the vicinity of the Caspian Sea with some similar CHG_Iran components.


Well we can't know for sure until we solve the mystery of the many yemeni early clades within P58 and L136 as a whole. Unless you can currently propose a good explanation as to how and when did P56, S4924, Z643*, "L93" and L860 make it to southern Arabia...

My current take on this is that they probably arrived from Mesopotamia as an earlier migration than the other P58 clades, mainly FGC11 and Z640, which may had come from the southern Levant later on with the expansion of ASA languages.

Or maybe like I alteady postulated, P58 expanded from Arabia, which at first glance appears far-stretched but is in fact an interesting possibility. The only problem with that is that even these ancient divergent yemeni clades all have TMRCAs no older than 5000 years, whereas E-M84 subclades in Yemen are fairly differentiated with TMRCAs exceeding 5kya and approaching 6kya. Im talking star-like expansions here at that. Although to remain fair there are still unresolved Z643 and J1(xP58) in Yemen, as well as the emirati Z643 cluster which may or may not be related to a yemeni tribal migration.

Fact is we really need ancient yemeni samples to clarify the issue. Im pretty sure pre-Z1884 Yemen was overwhelmingly E-M84 and J-S4924

tipirneni
02-04-2021, 03:57 PM
Our Y chromosome and autosomal analysis identified genetic signatures of three likely centers of isolated evolution followed by population expansions. These modern centers correspond to archaeologically known LGP
refugia4,9,27 in Southwest Asia4,5,34. The first, identified by Obsidian sourcing35 as an expansion center in Georgia/
eastern Turkey12,13. Clear evidence of trade, and tool cultures mark the second refuge in the northern Levant7
. The third in the southern Arabian Peninsula5 identified recently by Gandini et al.20. Archaeologically, the time period
marking post glacial population expansions through Southwest Asia is associated with the early and middle
Pre-Pottery Neolithic B, the increased reliance on domesticated plants and animals, increased evidence of trade
and exchange along the earlier established obsidian trade routes, and coastal to inland trade of marine resources

BATWING characterized three features in the genetic record during the expansion of J1 and J2. The earliest dates, with the oldest differentiations for J2 at 8.4 ka, and J1 at 8.9 ka, show an early divergence between the
Caucasus from the rest of the populations. The branches, to the east down through Mesopotamia and to the west down through the Levant, maintained mutual isolation. Those earliest dispersions show post-last-glacial-period dates. Later, a significant number of branches occurred within a
very narrow window of time, nearly polytomously, followed by relatively stability, marking the emergence of
stronger regional isolation suggesting sedentism. That window marks a period near the end of the Holocene
Climatic Optimum (HCO - 9 ka–5 ka). g aridification.
Subsequent expansions of J1 show the Mesopotamian branch extending to Arabia and Yemen at about 4 ka.
The signal of the original North African J1 expansion is overwhelmed in Egypt by more recent Levantine J1s
(Fig. 2a). J2 shows similar but deeper isolation during the HCO, with a similar expansion date into North Africa
(5.9 ka) as J1 (4.9 ka, Fig. 2b). Yet, its isolation in Egypt is far older, around 8.1 ka. Further, J2′s Mesopotamian
population differentiated earlier from the Levantine populations (7.3 ka), with much more recent admixture
among J2′s in Turkey (5.1 ka).

https://dash.harvard.edu/bitstream/handle/1/30371115/5216412.pdf?sequence=1&isAllowed=y

Jatt1
02-07-2021, 01:57 AM
Well we can't know for sure until we solve the mystery of the many yemeni early clades within P58 and L136 as a whole. Unless you can currently propose a good explanation as to how and when did P56, S4924, Z643*, "L93" and L860 make it to southern Arabia...

My current take on this is that they probably arrived from Mesopotamia as an earlier migration than the other P58 clades, mainly FGC11 and Z640, which may had come from the southern Levant later on with the expansion of ASA languages.

Or maybe like I alteady postulated, P58 expanded from Arabia, which at first glance appears far-stretched but is in fact an interesting possibility. The only problem with that is that even these ancient divergent yemeni clades all have TMRCAs no older than 5000 years, whereas E-M84 subclades in Yemen are fairly differentiated with TMRCAs exceeding 5kya and approaching 6kya. Im talking star-like expansions here at that. Although to remain fair there are still unresolved Z643 and J1(xP58) in Yemen, as well as the emirati Z643 cluster which may or may not be related to a yemeni tribal migration.

Fact is we really need ancient yemeni samples to clarify the issue. Im pretty sure pre-Z1884 Yemen was overwhelmingly E-M84 and J-S4924

May be Kura Arexes expansion. May I have your say in case of zs3698? https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-ZS3698/

Lupriac
02-07-2021, 08:26 PM
We will only know for certain when we have the Dumat al-Jandal and ancient Yemen samples that are supposed to come out soon. It's possible there was an earlier expansion deep into southern Arabia in the Neolithic that wasn't as successful as other J1 lineages. Perhaps motivated by the desertification happening in Arabia and the fertile crescent at that time, as Yemen and Oman retained, for the most part, their green, lush nature.

Shamash
02-10-2021, 10:12 AM
We will only know for certain when we have the Dumat al-Jandal and ancient Yemen samples that are supposed to come out soon. It's possible there was an earlier expansion deep into southern Arabia in the Neolithic that wasn't as successful as other J1 lineages. Perhaps motivated by the desertification happening in Arabia and the fertile crescent at that time, as Yemen and Oman retained, for the most part, their green, lush nature.

I absolutely second your opinion: the arriving Bronze Age J-FGC11 migrants from the north might have encountered an existing some sort of archaic Semitic speaking population in Yemen. The population and linguistic history of the Arabian Penisula is IMO much more complex than initially thought. As a consequence other more ancient J1 lineages are likely since the Neolithic period in Yemen.

Bytheway when are these ancient DNA samples from the Arabian Peninsula going to be released?

Hawk
02-10-2021, 11:08 AM
I view it this way. Zagrosi migrants packed full with Y-DNA J1 initially came as some goat herders/farmers acquiring Afro-Asiatic language and decades/centuries later having a star-like expansion.

Lupriac
02-10-2021, 12:29 PM
I absolutely second your opinion: the arriving Bronze Age J-FGC11 migrants from the north might have encountered an existing some sort of archaic Semitic speaking population in Yemen. The population and linguistic history of the Arabian Penisula is IMO much more complex than initially thought. As a consequence other more ancient J1 lineages are likely since the Neolithic period in Yemen.

Bytheway when are these ancient DNA samples from the Arabian Peninsula going to be released?

From what I was told, this year. No specific date though.

Helves
02-10-2021, 01:03 PM
I view it this way. Zagrosi migrants packed full with Y-DNA J1 initially came as some goat herders/farmers acquiring Afro-Asiatic language and decades/centuries later having a star-like expansion.

J1 hasn’t been found though in Neolithic or Chalcolithic Iran. To me it looks like it spread from southern Caucasus and eastern Anatolia.

RCO
02-10-2021, 01:59 PM
We can find some Yemenite/Ethiopian/Horn clusters in J1-P56 https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-P56/ and J1-ZS5383 https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-ZS5383/

drobbah
02-10-2021, 02:14 PM
P56 is probably associated with the Ethio-Semitic speakers and their Arabized linguistic cousins in Yemen.Among the Somali J1 carriers they all belong to a very young lineage of P58 which was probably brought by Mehri or people from Hadhramawt.

Shamash
02-10-2021, 06:44 PM
I view it this way. Zagrosi migrants packed full with Y-DNA J1 initially came as some goat herders/farmers acquiring Afro-Asiatic language and decades/centuries later having a star-like expansion.

I suppose that J1 arrived from Mesopotamia in two directions both to the Levant and southwards into the Arabian Peninsula in the Chalcolithic period.

How long do we have to wait for aDNA from one of the most important hotspots of human civilization, Mesopotamia?! :\

Hawk
02-10-2021, 07:53 PM
J1 hasn’t been found though in Neolithic or Chalcolithic Iran. To me it looks like it spread from southern Caucasus and eastern Anatolia.

Could be the case, i don't know the subclades too well. But i think they started to expand centuries after they acquired the Afro-Asiatic language, in that regard i am not too sure which is the original PAA marker, E-M34 or E-M78.

Agamemnon
02-10-2021, 08:47 PM
One might envision a scenario whereby J1 made it relatively early to Arabia by migrating from the Iranian plateau into Eastern Arabia via the Gulf. Whether that happened when the Gulf still was a Late Pleistocene/Early Holocene refugium or when it already was submerged makes no difference as the Gulf is quite shallow (to give you an idea, lake Geneva is on average three times deeper than the Gulf), assuming that the Neolithic population of Gobustan known for drawing ships had anything to do with this population the Gulf would not have been a great obstacle.

Is such a scenario likely? In my opinion, not quite. Like Shamash, I think it's pretty obvious that P58 was a Neolithic Mesopotamian lineage that made its way to the Southern Levant by the Pottery Neolithic (or final Neolithic) period. I however have some serious doubts about an early forray of J1 into the Arabian peninsula predating Semitic dispersals. Indeed, looking at the different non-Z2331 lineages found in Semitic-speaking groups, they share TMRCA estimates which go back to the Early Bronze Age at best.

Essentially, what I think we're looking at is two sets of Semitic migrations, an early one during the 3rd millennium BCE responsible for the dissemination of early West Semitic speech (which survives in the form of Ethiosemitic and MSA languages) harbouring most of the non-Z2331 lineages, and then a secondary set of dispersals responsible for the arrival of Central Semitic speech in Arabia during the 2nd millennium BCE (embodied first by Old South Arabian and later by Old Arabic) mostly driven by FGC11 (some branches of Z1884/L858, especially under YSC76 and Z640, doubtless also had a part in this):

https://i.imgur.com/2sB1Mk2.jpg

In this I very much agree with Squad, pre-Z1884 Yemen (and much of Arabia) must've been rich in those xZ2331 clades, along with other lineages that took part in early Semitic dispersals (E-M84 is a given, some branches of V22 also might well have been present, J2b1-M205 is an obvious choice, a few other lineages are also worthy of consideration).

Shamash
02-10-2021, 09:40 PM
One might envision a scenario whereby J1 made it relatively early to Arabia by migrating from the Iranian plateau into Eastern Arabia via the Gulf. Whether that happened when the Gulf still was a Late Pleistocene/Early Holocene refugium or when it already was submerged makes no difference as the Gulf is quite shallow (to give you an idea, lake Geneva is on average three times deeper than the Gulf), assuming that the Neolithic population of Gobustan known for drawing ships had anything to do with this population the Gulf would not have been a great obstacle.

Is such a scenario likely? In my opinion, not quite. Like Shamash, I think it's pretty obvious that P58 was a Neolithic Mesopotamian lineage that made its way to the Southern Levant by the Pottery Neolithic (or final Neolithic) period. I however have some serious doubts about an early forray of J1 into the Arabian peninsula predating Semitic dispersals. Indeed, looking at the different non-Z2331 lineages found in Semitic-speaking groups, they share TMRCA estimates which go back to the Early Bronze Age at best.

Essentially, what I think we're looking at is two sets of Semitic migrations, an early one during the 3rd millennium BCE responsible for the dissemination of early West Semitic speech (which survives in the form of Ethiosemitic and MSA languages) harbouring most of the non-Z2331 lineages, and then a secondary set of dispersals responsible for the arrival of Central Semitic speech in Arabia during the 2nd millennium BCE (embodied first by Old South Arabian and later by Old Arabic) mostly driven by FGC11 (some branches of Z1884/L858, especially under YSC76 and Z640, doubtless also had a part in this):

https://i.imgur.com/2sB1Mk2.jpg

In this I very much agree with Squad, pre-Z1884 Yemen (and much of Arabia) must've been rich in those xZ2331 clades, along with other lineages that took part in early Semitic dispersals (E-M84 is a given, some branches of V22 also might well have been present, J2b1-M205 is an obvious choice, a few other lineages are also worthy of consideration).

Well, if Lupriac is right we might have an answer to our thoughts by the end of the year...

Helves
02-10-2021, 10:33 PM
One might envision a scenario whereby J1 made it relatively early to Arabia by migrating from the Iranian plateau into Eastern Arabia via the Gulf. Whether that happened when the Gulf still was a Late Pleistocene/Early Holocene refugium or when it already was submerged makes no difference as the Gulf is quite shallow (to give you an idea, lake Geneva is on average three times deeper than the Gulf), assuming that the Neolithic population of Gobustan known for drawing ships had anything to do with this population the Gulf would not have been a great obstacle.

Is such a scenario likely? In my opinion, not quite. Like Shamash, I think it's pretty obvious that P58 was a Neolithic Mesopotamian lineage that made its way to the Southern Levant by the Pottery Neolithic (or final Neolithic) period. I however have some serious doubts about an early forray of J1 into the Arabian peninsula predating Semitic dispersals. Indeed, looking at the different non-Z2331 lineages found in Semitic-speaking groups, they share TMRCA estimates which go back to the Early Bronze Age at best.

Essentially, what I think we're looking at is two sets of Semitic migrations, an early one during the 3rd millennium BCE responsible for the dissemination of early West Semitic speech (which survives in the form of Ethiosemitic and MSA languages) harbouring most of the non-Z2331 lineages, and then a secondary set of dispersals responsible for the arrival of Central Semitic speech in Arabia during the 2nd millennium BCE (embodied first by Old South Arabian and later by Old Arabic) mostly driven by FGC11 (some branches of Z1884/L858, especially under YSC76 and Z640, doubtless also had a part in this):

https://i.imgur.com/2sB1Mk2.jpg

In this I very much agree with Squad, pre-Z1884 Yemen (and much of Arabia) must've been rich in those xZ2331 clades, along with other lineages that took part in early Semitic dispersals (E-M84 is a given, some branches of V22 also might well have been present, J2b1-M205 is an obvious choice, a few other lineages are also worthy of consideration).
If I'm understanding your map correct here you're putting the breakup between P58 and it's sisterclade ZS4393 somewhere around the border between Northern Iraq and Northern Syria?

While we're on the subject of Saudis one thing that has really changed my view on connecting certain subclades to certain people is the variation we see among modern day penninsular Arabs. There are just short of 3000 Saudis on Yfull and they are basically under every subclade of all haplogroups that look to be West Asian in origin(and beyond that even) which is quite remarkable considering that from an auDNA perspective they are kind of a genetic isolate and add to that their history of (semi)nomadism up until recently and their rather strict endogamy.
One can really imagine the diversity we'll find in populations that have had a more central role in history and with a large effective population size.

Agamemnon
02-10-2021, 11:31 PM
If I'm understanding your map correct here you're putting the breakup between P58 and it's sisterclade ZS4393 somewhere around the border between Northern Iraq and Northern Syria?

P58's MRCA I'm more or less certain was somewhere in Mesopotamia (as I said, it seems to be a Neolithic Mesopotamian lineage), don't take the actual location too seriously as it might have been significantly more to the north, personally I think historical Assyria/Upper Mesopotamia is the safest bet. ZS4393 probably wasn't too far, possibly somewhere around the Zagros if not in Mesopotamia as well. L136 however is likelier to have originated somewhere closer to the Caucasus or the Caspian Sea, I think there's mounting evidence of that, though here we're already dealing with J1's ultimate origin in a sense.

The only placements you can take seriously on the map I made would be the Semitic homeland and the general direction of the different migrations, first following the Fertile Crescent, then the Great Rift valley's Levantine extension, and in turn the initial West Semitic push southwards following the Tihama shoreline.

maroco
02-10-2021, 11:42 PM
According to my friend we have some new levant samples coming from the south east

lifeisdandy
02-10-2021, 11:54 PM
P58's MRCA I'm more or less certain was somewhere in Mesopotamia (as I said, it seems to be a Neolithic Mesopotamian lineage), don't take the actual location too seriously as it might have been significantly more to the north, personally I think historical Assyria/Upper Mesopotamia is the safest bet. ZS4393 probably wasn't too far, possibly somewhere around the Zagros if not in Mesopotamia as well. L136 however is likelier to have originated somewhere closer to the Caucasus or the Caspian Sea, I think there's mounting evidence of that, though here we're already dealing with J1's ultimate origin in a sense.

The only placements you can take seriously on the map I made would be the Semitic homeland and the general direction of the different migrations, first following the Fertile Crescent, then the Great Rift valley's Levantine extension, and in turn the initial West Semitic push southwards following the Tihama shoreline.
This is an amazing map Agamemnon. What would have been the route of my father's lineage out of Mesopotamia and into Egypt with timelines?

Agamemnon
02-11-2021, 12:16 AM
This is an amazing map Agamemnon. What would have been the route of my father's lineage out of Mesopotamia and into Egypt with timelines?

Largely the same as the path from P58 to Z2331, ZS12519 also originated in Mesopotamia and ZS12454's TMRCA almost certainly stayed put in the Levant (much like the other branches of Z2331), possibly this lineage would have been in the southernmost regions of the Levant, in the same area that was part of the Semitic homeland as seen on the map. It migrated from there to Egypt at the beginning of the 2nd millennium BCE, in what was part of a larger migratory phenomenon (Amorites settling into Egypt in ever greater numbers).

Keneki20
02-11-2021, 01:41 AM
Largely the same as the path from P58 to Z2331, ZS12519 also originated in Mesopotamia and ZS12454's TMRCA almost certainly stayed put in the Levant (much like the other branches of Z2331), possibly this lineage would have been in the southernmost regions of the Levant, in the same area that was part of the Semitic homeland as seen on the map. It migrated from there to Egypt at the beginning of the 2nd millennium BCE, in what was part of a larger migratory phenomenon (Amorites settling into Egypt in ever greater numbers).

Your map is really really well-executed. Thanks a lot for sharing it with us all! Also, if you don’t mind my asking, what do you believe may have caused Amorites to start migrating in large numbers, especially to Egypt?

Jatt1
02-11-2021, 02:39 AM
I view it this way. Zagrosi migrants packed full with Y-DNA J1 initially came as some goat herders/farmers acquiring Afro-Asiatic language and decades/centuries later having a star-like expansion.

Doesn't J1 have something to do with Kura Arexes expansion etc.?

Agamemnon
02-11-2021, 02:43 AM
Your map is really really well-executed. Thanks a lot for sharing it with us all! Also, if you don’t mind my asking, what do you believe may have caused Amorites to start migrating in large numbers, especially to Egypt?

Thanks for the compliments. Regarding your question, there seems to have been a multitude of different factors involved, the main one however was famine. As early as the Old Kingdom, we have evidence of "Asiatics (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aamu)" (really Amorites judging from personal names) either seeking refuge in Egypt during droughts or receiving Egyptian grain in times of famine. There's a well-known relief known as the "Famine relief" found on the causeway to Unas' pyramid at Saqqara showing emaciated and starving nomads who can barely stand up:

https://madainproject.com/content/media/collect/unas_famine_relief_2.jpg
https://condor.depaul.edu/~sbucking/famine.jpg
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/1e/Bedouins_starving_in_the_desert-E_17381-IMG_9845-gradient.jpg

The way these nomads are depicted is the conventional way in which "Asiatics" are represented during the Old Kingdom (this was also done with the intent of emphasising their foreign nature). With the 4.2 kiloyear event which probably accelerated the collapse of the Old Kingdom and the Akkadian empire, drought intensified and probably led to such extreme circumstances that many Amorites who led a settled lifestyle turned (reverted?) to pastoral nomadism and migrated towards Egypt. There must have been widespread knowledge of Egypt's fertility among the Amorites, as early as the second half of the 3rd millennium BCE Egypt was already striving to regulate and prevent incursions of semi-nomadic pastoralists from the east, building canals and fortifications to guard the eastern branches of the Nile, because most of the Amorites who settled in large numbers in Egypt by the Middle Kingdom seem to have originated in northern Canaan and Syria. Also worthy of note is that some Amorites might have been taken captive and brought to Egypt as slaves. The 1st Intermediate Period is thus the crucial period here.

The MB IIB/C period in much of the Levant saw the settlement of the different Amorite tribes and the appearance of Amorite polities, this can be tracked archeologically thanks to what has been called the "Amorite cultural assemblage":


https://i.imgur.com/3efMLE3.png


Notice that Tell el-Dab'a (more commonly known as "Avaris", the Hyksos capital) in Egypt is basically an Amorite settlement, the "Asiatics" had settled in Egypt to such an extent that some parts of the country were part of this process of Amorite (re-)urbanisation. By the Middle Kingdom, Egypt sees its first Semitic king (Khendjer, a 13th dynasty king) and shortly thereafter during the 2nd Intermediate Period entire dynasties made up of Asiatic kings (most importantly the 14th dynasty). The 15th "Hyksos" dynasty was just the culmination of that process. "Asiatics" were to be found in every stratum of society by then, from the lowest slave to the king. Had Egypt been as disunited as Mesopotamia, it probably would have gone the same way and ended up with Amorite as the spoken language and Egyptian as a prestige language. What this means is that we ought to expect a large influx of JOR_EBA-like (or Megiddo_IBA, Yehud_IBA-like) admixture in Egypt by the Middle Kingdom, possibly enough to irreversibly change the country's genetic makeup.

Kelmendasi
02-11-2021, 03:10 AM
Doesn't J1 have something to do with Kura Arexes expansion etc.?
There is very possibly a connection between J1-Z1842 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z1842/) and the Kura-Araxes culture since sample VEK007 from Early Bronze Age (3000-2800 BCE) Velikent in Dagestan, Russia, belonged to this cultural group. Interestingly, sample ART018 from the Late Chalcolithic (3491-3122 BCE) site of Arslantepe (also known as Melid) in eastern Anatolia was also Z1842. This supports the claim that Z1842 may have ultimately arrived in the North Caucasus from eastern Anatolia or Transcaucasia, potentially with the Bronze Age expansions of the Kura-Araxes.

RCO
02-11-2021, 03:55 AM
J1 clades were members of relatively well developed societies with new edge technologies located around Eastern Anatolia, Eastern Caucasus, Northern Mesopotamia, Zagros, Iran, Caspian Sea, relatively dense societies after the Neolithic because we can find J1 clades with very ancient ramifications long before the Southern expansion of J1's southernmost clades downstream of L136, ZS4393, P56 and P58 to Arabia, the Levant and Africa. To the North and East we could find ZS6599, FGC6064, CTS1026, Y29696, Y6313 in more populated and settled areas with a long presence of J haplogroup since the Mesolithic.

MitchellSince1893
02-11-2021, 04:57 AM
I think it's pretty obvious that P58 was a Neolithic Mesopotamian lineage that made its way to the Southern Levant by the Pottery Neolithic (or final Neolithic) period.


I donít follow this thread or J1 discussions so this may have already been discussed but I canít help but think of the story of Abram/Abraham in Ur of the Chaldees heading to the land of Canaan.

Shamash
02-11-2021, 10:02 AM
I donít follow this thread or J1 discussions so this may have already been discussed but I canít help but think of the story of Abram/Abraham in Ur of the Chaldees heading to the land of Canaan.

Positivist science doesn't know if there was a man called Abram/Abraham but his narrative figure could embody the preserved memories of a tribal lineage and its migrations. That migrational episode could be the core of the legend.

BUT: I don't know if a legend can persist more than 9000 years...

It could all be coincidence as well! ;-)

Shamash
02-11-2021, 10:40 AM
The way these nomads are depicted is the conventional way in which "Asiatics" are represented during the Old Kingdom (this was also done with the intent of emphasising their foreign nature). With the 4.2 kiloyear event which probably accelerated the collapse of the Old Kingdom and the Akkadian empire, drought intensified and probably led to such extreme circumstances that many Amorites who led a settled lifestyle turned (reverted?) to pastoral nomadism and migrated towards Egypt.

IMO that facet you mention Agamemnon could be an essential key in understanding the population history of the whole region: if we look at the Sabaeans they are also thought as originally sedentary people that began to lead a life as pastoral nomads and turned into a sedentary population again in the very moment the climate and region they arrived allowed it to.

Their very autonym sb’y is derived from a verbal form sb’ which means to part/to go on a journey (https://www.bibelwissenschaft.de/wibilex/das-bibellexikon/lexikon/sachwort/anzeigen/details/saba-2/ch/2c37535748a4ec4d029a8f2ea234a82d/).

Alessandro de Maigret, an outstanding figure in the study of Old South Arabian people hypothesizes that they wandered for many centuries the deserts of the Arabian Peninsula before settling at the opposite end of the desert first in the Jawf region bordering the Sayhad and slowly penetrating the mountaineous but very fertile regions in the Southwest of Yemen. He thinks that before starting a nomadic lifestyle (due to climate canges) they could have been sedentary but at the opposite end of the Empty quarter. He so explains the clearly Mesopotamian derived character of early Sabaean art. Mesopotamian art of the third millennium BCE (Early Dynastic Period (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_Dynastic_Period_(Mesopotamia))) not the second (!) millennium BCE is at the very root of Old South Arabian art.

In his opinion they kept that artistic memory during their "wandering" centuries before reemploying it when settling in the Southwestern part of the peninsula.

This remains only a theory until we have aDNA data from Mesopotamia and the Arabian Peninsula.

It therefore remains an open question to when and where the Sabaeans adopted their script which is derived from the Proto-Sinaitic script (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Sinaitic_script) and the specific Mesopotamian character of their art? In either case the question could be answered through the fact that the ancestors of the Sabaeans have been wandering for centuries the north of the Arabian Peninsula at the edges of the desert. That could also explain the hybrid character of their culture.

Agamemnon
02-12-2021, 12:51 AM
IMO that facet you mention Agamemnon could be an essential key in understanding the population history of the whole region: if we look at the Sabaeans they are also thought as originally sedentary people that began to lead a life as pastoral nomads and turned into a sedentary population again in the very moment the climate and region they arrived allowed it to.

Their very autonym sb’y is derived from a verbal form sb’ which means to part/to go on a journey (https://www.bibelwissenschaft.de/wibilex/das-bibellexikon/lexikon/sachwort/anzeigen/details/saba-2/ch/2c37535748a4ec4d029a8f2ea234a82d/).

Alessandro de Maigret, an outstanding figure in the study of Old South Arabian people hypothesizes that they wandered for many centuries the deserts of the Arabian Peninsula before settling at the opposite end of the desert first in the Jawf region bordering the Sayhad and slowly penetrating the mountaineous but very fertile regions in the Southwest of Yemen. He thinks that before starting a nomadic lifestyle (due to climate canges) they could have been sedentary but at the opposite end of the Empty quarter. He so explains the clearly Mesopotamian derived character of early Sabaean art. Mesopotamian art of the third millennium BCE (Early Dynastic Period (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_Dynastic_Period_(Mesopotamia))) not the second (!) millennium BCE is at the very root of Old South Arabian art.

In his opinion they kept that artistic memory during their "wandering" centuries before reemploying it when settling in the Southwestern part of the peninsula.

This remains only a theory until we have aDNA data from Mesopotamia and the Arabian Peninsula.

It therefore remains an open question to when and where the Sabaeans adopted their script which is derived from the Proto-Sinaitic script (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Sinaitic_script) and the specific Mesopotamian character of their art? In either case the question could be answered through the fact that the ancestors of the Sabaeans have been wandering for centuries the north of the Arabian Peninsula at the edges of the desert. That could also explain the hybrid character of their culture.

If we choose to understand the region's demographic past, we need to view it in the long term (what is best known as "longue durťe"). In which case, it's hard to avoid the constant shift from settled lifestyle to pastoral nomadism, J1 is possibly a great example of this phenomenon as it was likely brought to the Southern Levant either by Halafians or Ubaidians, both cultures that are noteworthy for their proto-urban and settled nature... Only to become a major lineage amongst the earliest Semites, a semi-nomadic population that developed strategies to people deep desert environments. Even though it's likely that the success of a "mega-branch" like Z2331 was due to an advantage these people had, the shift here is bound to be tied to the 5.9 kiloyear event (notice that this is congruent with the break up of Proto-Semitic and Z2331's TMRCA estimates, along with that of most branches immediately downstream). So from the very "beginning" of J1's arrival in SW Asia, we might be dealing with a series of different shifts from settled to nomadic subsistence strategies.

The etymology of Sabaean s₁bʔ "to carry out an undertaking, a military campaign" (also compare Qatabanian "to set out, to go") isn't just correct, it probably had the sense of "wanderers" at a more ancient stage of Sayhadic. Another similar case as far as endonyms go would be "Jebusite" יבוסי yəḇūsī being derived from the Proto-West Semitic root *ybś "to be dry" (compare Hebrew yāḇēš, Aramaic yabbiš, Sabaean ybs₁) likely indicating that these people originated in an arid and dry environment, this is also to be put in parallel with the Amorite tribe known as "Yabusu" or "Yabusiʔum" from the Mari archives (regardless of whether this tribe or clan was in any way related to the Jebusites, this is similar to the "Bini-Yamina" of the Mariote documents and their relationship to the Israelite tribe of Benjamin).

Agamemnon
02-12-2021, 05:45 PM
...



Not sure where you're headed with that "Real Jews" talk, as that automatically presupposes that present-day Jews are impostors. At most what can be said is that the Amorite groups from which the Exodus tradition (or traditions) originated is intrinsically tied to this population, and in this sense the people who brought lineages like ZS12454 to Egypt were closely-related to some of the Israelites' most prominent ancestors. I'm also not too big on "purity", IMO there's really no such thing in genetics, even a population such as the Samaritans which closely resembles IA and MBLA Levantines (often more closely than contemporary populations) is hardly "pure" and though the admixture isn't of the kind described in the Hebrew Bible (Kuthim) their relative "preservation" came at the cost of debilitating genetic diseases.

Also, the Levant wasn't "heavily replaced" by Indo-Europeans, you had some Mitannian incursions around the 16th century BCE which resulted in the appearance of a ruling class bearing Indo-Aryan and Hurrian names in many Canaanite cites (though crucially not all of them), at most we're dealing with 15% of the male population, though an Indo-European component was doubtless involved (obvious judging from the appearance of R1a at MLBA Megiddo and R1b-M269 at LBA Tel Shadud) the overall tendency from the EBA to MLBA is a shift in a more Mesopotamian or West Asian direction so one might expect the Hurrian component to be more prominent.

That's what Egypt seems to have avoided for the most part. So there is some merit to what you're saying, namely that because the strand of Semitic ancestry that made it to Egypt by the MBA was JOR_EBA or Megiddo/Yehud_IBA-like (and in my mind, this type of ancestry will closely resemble the profile of the Proto-Semites), present-day Egyptians and Peninsular Arabs seem to be rich in that type of early Semitic ancestry, though this really has more to do with them being at the receiving end of the Semitic dispersals. This is of course truer of Arabia, and especially Yemenites.

Squad
02-12-2021, 06:45 PM
One might envision a scenario whereby J1 made it relatively early to Arabia by migrating from the Iranian plateau into Eastern Arabia via the Gulf. Whether that happened when the Gulf still was a Late Pleistocene/Early Holocene refugium or when it already was submerged makes no difference as the Gulf is quite shallow (to give you an idea, lake Geneva is on average three times deeper than the Gulf), assuming that the Neolithic population of Gobustan known for drawing ships had anything to do with this population the Gulf would not have been a great obstacle.

Is such a scenario likely? In my opinion, not quite. Like Shamash, I think it's pretty obvious that P58 was a Neolithic Mesopotamian lineage that made its way to the Southern Levant by the Pottery Neolithic (or final Neolithic) period. I however have some serious doubts about an early forray of J1 into the Arabian peninsula predating Semitic dispersals. Indeed, looking at the different non-Z2331 lineages found in Semitic-speaking groups, they share TMRCA estimates which go back to the Early Bronze Age at best.

Essentially, what I think we're looking at is two sets of Semitic migrations, an early one during the 3rd millennium BCE responsible for the dissemination of early West Semitic speech (which survives in the form of Ethiosemitic and MSA languages) harbouring most of the non-Z2331 lineages, and then a secondary set of dispersals responsible for the arrival of Central Semitic speech in Arabia during the 2nd millennium BCE (embodied first by Old South Arabian and later by Old Arabic) mostly driven by FGC11 (some branches of Z1884/L858, especially under YSC76 and Z640, doubtless also had a part in this):

https://i.imgur.com/2sB1Mk2.jpg

In this I very much agree with Squad, pre-Z1884 Yemen (and much of Arabia) must've been rich in those xZ2331 clades, along with other lineages that took part in early Semitic dispersals (E-M84 is a given, some branches of V22 also might well have been present, J2b1-M205 is an obvious choice, a few other lineages are also worthy of consideration).

There is however one main problem with your scenario. The fact that these early south arabia lines have no close relatives in the Levant, whereas between the TMRCA of P58 and the TMRCA of these clades, there's a 4000 years gap or so, even more between P56 and ZS4393. How come all these four lines (P56, S4924, L93 and L860) have no levantine relatives while they would've had not only come from there with the expansion of semitic (a big star-like one at that), but also dwelled there for so long. This is why it is highly possible that these lines enterred Arabia directly from Iran/Mesopotamia maybe, as a non afro-asiatic speaking people. Especially given S4924 and P56 have as sister lines L817 and PF7263 respectively, both of which are clear Iranian lines and not levantine. A turkish individual from Erzurum also form a clade with L93

Im most likely right on this one

Agamemnon
02-12-2021, 07:09 PM
There is however one main problem with your scenario. The fact that these early south arabia lines have no close relatives in the Levant, whereas between the TMRCA of P58 and the TMRCA of these clades, there's a 4000 years gap or so, even more between P56 and ZS4393. How come all these four lines (P56, S4924, L93 and L860) have no levantine relatives while they would've had not only come from there with the expansion of semitic (a big star-like one at that), but also dwelled there for so long. This is why it is highly possible that these lines enterred Arabia directly from Iran/Mesopotamia maybe, as a non afro-asiatic speaking people. Especially given S4924 and P56 have as sister lines L817 and PF7263 respectively, both of which are clear Iranian lines and not levantine. A turkish individual from Erzurum also form a clade with L93

Im most likely right on this one

This is a fair point, that being said we need to keep in mind that the same could also be said of a lineage like FGC11 were it not for our MBA Sidonian. Who's to say BY111 or ZS5383 won't show up in EBA Levantines at some point? The sister lines you mention only serve to strengthen an origin somewhere around the Zagros or Taurus (or indeed, Mesopotamia), beyond that not much else. The driving assumption in my scenario is that the relatively basal position of those branches within J1's phylogeny is mirrored by the basal West Semitic position of the languages spoken by they carriers (chiefly MSA and Ethiosemitic), which is why I find an early West Semitic migration to be a more straightforward explanation (it also squares well with the TMRCA estimates), that being said I could just as well be wrong and have overstated the correlation between genes and languages.

Squad
02-12-2021, 08:42 PM
This is a fair point, that being said we need to keep in mind that the same could also be said of a lineage like FGC11 were it not for our MBA Sidonian. Who's to say BY111 or ZS5383 won't show up in EBA Levantines at some point? The sister lines you mention only serve to strengthen an origin somewhere around the Zagros or Taurus (or indeed, Mesopotamia), beyond that not much else. The driving assumption in my scenario is that the relatively basal position of those branches within J1's phylogeny is mirrored by the basal West Semitic position of the languages spoken by they carriers (chiefly MSA and Ethiosemitic), which is why I find an early West Semitic migration to be a more straightforward explanation (it also squares well with the TMRCA estimates), that being said I could just as well be wrong and have overstated the correlation between genes and languages.

1) It's not exactly the same with FGC11, which does have sister lines in the Levant of course, and is not a bottlenecked line. And above all, you do not really understand my point about the fact that we're talking about four lines which would have been dwelling in the Levant for thousand years. You are thus saying that by miracle, it is only really far into Arabia that these lines managed to survive, while there is no reason for the Levant to have lost this initial diversity given that the expansion of semitic was an important demographic event. So no pre-Z1853 at all in the Levant, but four well established lines in the arabian far south?

2) And akkadian is even more basal.

3) These intriguing arabian lines have different distribution within south Arabia. P56 mostly in Ethiopia, S4924 mostly in the Saraat mountains, L93 mostly in Zhufar and Al-Mahra and L860 in western Hadramaut. Yet, they all have similar TMRCAs all younger than 5000, meaning they probably are issued from a same migration. The situation is different for the big star-like expanded E-M84 branches in Yemen with TMRCAs about 5600, which correlates with the expansion of semitic. Isn't it weird? If they came together, we would expect a star-like expansion of these J1 lines at around the same time as E-M84, given their association with an important demographic event.

Agamemnon
02-12-2021, 09:21 PM
1) It's not exactly the same with FGC11, which does have sister lines in the Levant of course, and is not a bottlenecked line. And above all, you do not really understand my point about the fact that we're talking about four lines which would have been dwelling in the Levant for thousand years. You are thus saying that by miracle, it is only really far into Arabia that these lines managed to survive, while there is no reason for the Levant to have lost this initial diversity given that the expansion of semitic was an important demographic event. So no pre-Z1853 at all in the Levant, but four well established lines in the arabian far south?

2) And akkadian is even more basal.

3) These intriguing arabian lines have different distribution within south Arabia. P56 mostly in Ethiopia, S4924 mostly in the Saraat mountains, L93 mostly in Zhufar and Al-Mahra and L860 in western Hadramaut. Yet, they all have similar TMRCAs all younger than 5000, meaning they probably are issued from a same migration. The situation is different for the big star-like expanded E-M84 branches in Yemen with TMRCAs about 5600, which correlates with the expansion of semitic. Isn't it weird? If they came together, we would expect a star-like expansion of these J1 lines at around the same time as E-M84, given their association with an important demographic event.

Whoever spoke of miracles? There are many other similar branches which equally lack close contemporary relatives in the Levant, including my own, and for which there is little to no doubt of an origin in the area (even before this was confirmed by the ancient data).

I think you're reading too much into this, nothing really prevents all four South Arabian branches from having taken part in the initial dissemination of West Semitic speech, the only thing that is required is for those branches to have followed Z2331, which is likelier than an extended stay in Arabia since the Neolithic. The present-day paucity of those clades in the Levant just isn't a very convincing argument.

Shamash
02-12-2021, 09:43 PM
The present-day paucity of those clades in the Levant just isn't a very convincing argument.

This is why ancient DNA is so fascinating: who would have expected FGC11* in MBA Sidon? I was really surprised.

And Agamemnon is right: it is methodologically wrong to part from modern distribution patterns of haplogroups and subclades and inferring ancient patterns. Many lines die out in regions where they were present or even dominating in earlier days.

Just an example:

If I remember all those legions of idiots who claimed that R1b isn't Indo-European. Even if the area they came from during the Yamnaja-period is heavily dominated by R1a nowadays they were proven wrong by aDNA!

So Squad you and we let us all wait and (maybe) be suprised!

Agamemnon
02-12-2021, 10:09 PM
This is why ancient DNA is so fascinating: who would have expected FGC11* in MBA Sidon? I was really surprised.

And Agamemnon is right: it is methodologically wrong to part from modern distribution patterns of haplogroups and subclades and inferring ancient patterns. Many lines die out in regions where they were present in earlier days.

Just an example:

If I remember all those legions of idiots who claimed that R1b isn't Indo-European. Even if the area they came from during the Yamnaja-period is heavily dominated by R1a nowadays they were proven wrong by aDNA!

So Squad you and we let us all wait and be suprised!

Totally agree, that FGC11* case in Sidon was an eloquent example of how treacherous present-day distribution can be.

Moreover, your point about R1b is only reinforced by (1) the sheer phylogenetic similarity between J1 and R1b and (2) the fact that IE dispersals were contemporary with Semitic ones (both PIE and PS were spoken at roughly the same time). I remember a not-so-distant past when some people used R1b-Z2103's (mostly Near Eastern and Mediterranean) distribution as solid proof of R1b's non-IE origin, that was before this branch started to show up in almost every Yamnaya burial of course. Likewise, we can expect people to keep denying the correlation between the spread of J1's major branches (chiefly under P58) and Semitic speech as happened with R1b and IE until the ancient data starts speaking for itself.

Helves
02-12-2021, 10:19 PM
How can we be so sure that these subclades of P58 mentioned above don't exist in modern day Levantines? We don't know that much about Levantine J1 other than that it mostly falls under P58.

Stellaritic
02-13-2021, 08:48 PM
What I am about to discuss here may or may not apply to Arabia or the southern levant but that has been the case for Algerian .

Nomadism as a whole is a very specialized lifestyle, one cannot suddenly decide to pack up his stuff and begin wandering in the desert. To do so, both a specific set of survival skills and an advanced knowledge of topography are necessary in order to stay out of trouble. It's important to know exactly where to erect the tent i.e. higher ground is good but too high could result in the wind tearing down the tent and too low could have catastrophic consequences such as being swept away in a flash flood , not only that but every uninhabited part of the desert belongs to someone whether be it a tribal confederation, a tribe or a clan. As counter intuitive as it may sound, it's really crowded in the desert in the sense where every place has a specific name and territories tend to overlap with each other albeit with allied tribes. Trespassing is considered a serious offence and nomads will go to great lengths in order to secure their territories it's never an illegitimate reason to start a war the Basus War (pre-islamic Arabia) is a good example .

Of all people Pastoral nomads are the most vulnerable to changing climate conditions since their livestock depends on pasturage and they depend on their livestock to survive that's why in times of famine and war as well as in those of prosperity and peace they will sometimes raid towns, villages, other nomad camps and even Hadj (Islamic pilgrimage) caravans. This lifestyle has of course changed with the French conquest of Algeria. It's interesting to mention that some French ethnologists noted the gradual switch of some populations affected by famine from a nomadism lifestyle to semi-nomadism and from semi-nomadism to sedentarism but never the other way around.

That being said I have a hard time imagining any sedentary population or semi-nomads reverting back to nomadism especially if they have been sedentary for centuries or millennia unless they had been maintaining a system of alliances with nomadic tribes, this was of course a common type of alliance but it could easily result in the tribe shifting its role from one of an ally to an enemy in order to better suit its interests .
The only plausible scenario where a sedentary would theoretically revert back to nomadism would be if they're part of a select few who have maintained blood ties with the neighboring pastoral nomads, for that it's necessary for the urban population to continuously receive newly sedentarized nomad migrants over the centuries in order to maintain those family relationships since a tribe can no longer exists within a century if the populations of its fractions grow significantly enough to create their own autonomous tribes.

Tribal favoritism may hold key to the formation of some bottlenecked Y chromosome Haplogroups.

RCO
02-13-2021, 10:17 PM
Interesting. As a humid-wet clade of J1 (in my point of view my FGC6064 has always been in humid Northern Middle Eastern Regions, Northern Portugal and Southern Brazil, the most humid of all associated with Indo-European languages) I can try to understand that a severe drought brought new J1 Southern populations to the Southern deserts around the Bronze Age with new dry pastoralist technologies because we still can recognize the linguistic frontier between Indo-European X Semitic languages related to humidity and mountainous areas, we can only find some clades like J1-FGC6064 in Kurds, Kakai and other Iranian speaking populations of Iraq, so the frontier between mountainous highland Indo-European areas versus Semitic and dry or irrigated lowlands with other completely different types of J1 not to mention other haplogroups was very old, just like the separations of the J1 clades-populations and the Bronze Age Southern expansion to the deserts of only some J1 branches while other remained in the North because they were native to Northern areas like the adjacencies of the Caspian Sea.

Iyyovi
02-14-2021, 03:38 PM
There is however one main problem with your scenario. The fact that these early south arabia lines have no close relatives in the Levant, whereas between the TMRCA of P58 and the TMRCA of these clades, there's a 4000 years gap or so, even more between P56 and ZS4393. How come all these four lines (P56, S4924, L93 and L860) have no levantine relatives while they would've had not only come from there with the expansion of semitic (a big star-like one at that), but also dwelled there for so long. This is why it is highly possible that these lines enterred Arabia directly from Iran/Mesopotamia maybe, as a non afro-asiatic speaking people. Especially given S4924 and P56 have as sister lines L817 and PF7263 respectively, both of which are clear Iranian lines and not levantine. A turkish individual from Erzurum also form a clade with L93

An interesting point. I'm not knowledgeable about PF7263, but as for L817 I would say, however, that evidence is too limited to reliably define it as a clear Iranian line. I agree that the Iranian link for L817 can be supported by a number of cases including those in Cristofaro's Hindu Cush paper, a Kurdish S4985 person and a North Caspian FT308514 lineage. But these cases are extremely rare and can be explained not only by ancient location but also by more recent migrations, e.g. resettlements ordered by Persian Empire or merchant activity on the Great Silk Road.

The Saite
02-15-2021, 12:33 AM
On the occasion of J1-M267 breakdown being discussed, it worth to note that when it comes to Egyptians with all their groups (Christians and Muslims). The most common lineage of it, belongs to J-Z2331 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z2331/) sub branches, and there are absolutely no cluster of them that can be attributed to a Pre-Dynastic or Old Kingdom periods. Rather mostly well fitting as Asiatic immigrants through periods as user Agamemnon noted. However early J1 types are something else that can still be argued (the Iran-Caucasus signal detected in Chl Levant could have reached Egypt eventually). It also seems that any J existences in original Egyptians would be in a form of J2, surprisingly - also data is limited - there are clusters for Egyptians under it. In addition of studies I accessed with help of friends that showed J2 percentages are higher among rural Egyptians than J1. Only Cairo Egyptians show higher J1 compared to J2. But Cairo received recent Levantine migrations (mainly Palastinian refugees among others) and from Sinai tribes, Thanks to Nasser policies at the 60's. I can share some data soon with other STRs results of tested Egy's. But Just in a need of more time, I had made some primary mistakes while dealing, predicting and organizing the results that is being corrected.