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lgmayka
03-08-2014, 08:46 AM
A member of I2a-Dinaric has received his Big Y results:

591 Known SNPs (only 61 on FTDNA's old haplotree)
272 Novel Variants

I have encouraged him to ask FTDNA for his BAM file so that he can submit it to YFull.

gravetti
03-08-2014, 02:06 PM
Great,Igmayka!

GailA
04-04-2014, 11:06 PM
I have today received Big Y results for my brother who is I2a-Dinaric.

545 known SNPs (57 on FTDNA's haplotree)
219 Novel Variants

I'll request BAM file for submission to YFull

lgmayka
04-24-2014, 11:49 PM
I have been comparing the Novel Variants of the 10 I2a-Dinaric Big Y results in my project.

I have only one YFull interpretation of a Big Y BAM file--my own. I wish I had more. YFull's interpretation is so much more useful and complete than a simplistic Novel Variants list, or VCF and BED files.

The solidest correlation I see is that kits 76814, 101827, 109223, 131251, 213694, 255805, and 256403 share three SNPs that are definitely absent from my 56266, and apparently absent also from 133914 and 167859:

14856842
15531354 (S17250 or YP204)
15548676 (YP205)

The next-most reliable result is that kits 133914 and 167859 share three SNPs that are definitely absent from my 56266, and apparently absent from the other 7 kits too:

9028830 (YFC010724)
22310257 (YFC010698, but Thomas Krahn says that the 222-226 region is "problematic")
23548545 (Y3118)

Next is that 101827 and 256403 share two SNPs that 56266 definitely does not have, and the other 7 apparently do not have:

6676628
8896311

Next, 109223 and 131251 share three SNPs that 56266 definitely does not have, and the other 7 apparently do not have. However, all of these three SNPs are in the region that Thomas Krahn calls "problematic":

22278504
22458415
22477250

Ironically, I myself am the "odd man out": My kit 56266 does not reliably share a SNP with any of the other 9 kits (except all of them together).

Michał
04-25-2014, 08:23 AM
I have been comparing the Novel Variants of the 10 I2a-Dinaric Big Y results in my project.

Thank you for sharing this with us! Can you see any STR pattern that would indicate a potential association with any of those two major subclades of I2a-Din (or with any of the two minor subclades within the larger clade)? Also, is this new division within I2a-Din anyhow related to the STR-based N versus S division? Finally, have you previously expected based on your STR results that your own lineage is such an outlier? Has any of your close matches ordered Big Y?

lgmayka
04-26-2014, 09:46 AM
Can you see any STR pattern that would indicate a potential association with any of those two major subclades of I2a-Din (or with any of the two minor subclades within the larger clade)? Also, is this new division within I2a-Din anyhow related to the STR-based N versus S division? Finally, have you previously expected based on your STR results that your own lineage is such an outlier? Has any of your close matches ordered Big Y?
No, no, no, and no.

I have never seen a reliable STR-based division of I2a-Dinaric. The alleged N vs. S division is at best a statistical correlation, not reliable enough for individual classification. I did not expect myself to be such an outlier, except that my Y-DNA Matches page still lists no 67-marker matches at all--but that is rather common in I2a-Dinaric. Thus, I don't have any "close matches."

gravetti
04-28-2014, 08:06 AM
From: "Debbie Kennett" <[email protected]>
Subject: [yDNAhgI] I2a now predicted as L201 (G1a1b)
Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2014 19:28:02 +0100

"I have a project member who was previously predicted to be I2a and is now
predicted to be G-L201 (G1a1b). I presume the change is as a result of using
37 markers for the predictions rather than just 12 markers. His 37-marker
matches include people whose terminal SNP is listed as P37 (G1a1b), which
appears to be synonymous with L201, and one person whose terminal SNP is
L233 (I2a1b). P37 seems to be one of those SNPs that occurs in multiple
haplogroups. I presume this is a convergence problem where it's difficult to
distinguish the two haplogroups on 37-marker results. I note that a number
of people in the I2a project are now all in haplogroup G. Are they really Gs
or is this a problem with the new algorithms?"

...and F,and J1a1a1.Whats this?

gravetti
04-28-2014, 08:11 AM
Look at this:

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/Dhaplogroup/default.aspx?section=yresults

R.Rocca
04-28-2014, 07:38 PM
I have been comparing the Novel Variants of the 10 I2a-Dinaric Big Y results in my project.

I have only one YFull interpretation of a Big Y BAM file--my own. I wish I had more. YFull's interpretation is so much more useful and complete than a simplistic Novel Variants list, or VCF and BED files.

The solidest correlation I see is that kits 76814, 101827, 109223, 131251, 213694, 255805, and 256403 share three SNPs that are definitely absent from my 56266, and apparently absent also from 133914 and 167859:

14856842
15531354 (S17250 or YP204)
15548676 (YP205)

The next-most reliable result is that kits 133914 and 167859 share three SNPs that are definitely absent from my 56266, and apparently absent from the other 7 kits too:

9028830 (YFC010724)
22310257 (YFC010698, but Thomas Krahn says that the 222-226 region is "problematic")
23548545 (Y3118)

Next is that 101827 and 256403 share two SNPs that 56266 definitely does not have, and the other 7 apparently do not have:

6676628
8896311

Next, 109223 and 131251 share three SNPs that 56266 definitely does not have, and the other 7 apparently do not have. However, all of these three SNPs are in the region that Thomas Krahn calls "problematic":

22278504
22458415
22477250

Ironically, I myself am the "odd man out": My kit 56266 does not reliably share a SNP with any of the other 9 kits (except all of them together).

lgmayka, if you could be so kind as to alert us if/when some of these become available for testing at FTDNA, that would be great. I'd like to test my father-in-law's lineage further and he was indeed I2a Dinaric from NE Poland.

lgmayka
05-16-2014, 12:00 AM
I have been comparing the Novel Variants of all 12 Dinaric Big Y results within my project, with the extremely valuable assistance of 2 YFull BAM analyses (kits 56266 and 133914). The 12 kits are:
56266 76814 101827 109223 131251 133914 145940 167859 209633 213694 255805 256403

Below is a complete list of apparently reliable SNPs found (only from among Novel Variants, not Known SNPs). It reconfirms and expands upon my previous results reported last month. Reqd means that an individual SNP test has been requested from FTDNA.

76814, 101827, 109223, 131251, 145940, 213694, 255805, 256403 positive
56266, 133914, 167859, 209633 negative
14856842 A > G Y3548 Reqd
15531354 G > A S17250 Reqd
15548676 A > G YP205

109223, 131251, 145940 positive
Others negative
22278504 T > C Z16968
22458415 G > T Z16969
22477250 G > C Z16970 Reqd

101827, 256403 positive
Others negative
6676628 G > C Z16971 Reqd
8896311 G > T Z16972

133914, 167859, 209633 positive
Others negative
9028830 G > A YFC010724 Reqd

133914, 167859 positive
Others negative
22310257 G > T Z16973
23548545 T > C Y3118 Reqd

My own kit 56266 is still the “odd man out,” all alone.

lgmayka
05-16-2014, 10:33 PM
A project administrator with access to kit 228317 sees two more shared SNPs. I have verified that the two YFull accounts at my disposal are unambiguously ancestral at these two locations.

228317, 255805 positive
Others negative
15196350 C > G Z16982
17558968 T > C Z16983 Reqd

lgmayka
05-19-2014, 11:35 PM
76814, 101827, 109223, 131251, 145940, 213694, 255805, 256403 positive
56266, 133914, 167859, 209633 negative
14856842 A > G Y3548 Reqd
15531354 G > A S17250 Reqd
15548676 A > G YP205

S17250 is now available as an individual SNP test from FTDNA.

lgmayka
06-03-2014, 01:17 AM
101827, 256403 positive
Others negative
6676628 G > C Z16971 Reqd
8896311 G > T Z16972

Z16971 is now available for order from FTDNA. Besides 101827 and 256403, known positives reportedly include 2275 and N38227.

lgmayka
06-09-2014, 10:06 PM
133914, 167859 positive
Others negative
23548545 T > C Y3118 Reqd
Y3118 is now available for individual order from FTDNA's Advanced menu. Y3118 is disjoint from S17250, so you should generally order Y3118 only if you have already tested negative for S17250.

lgmayka
06-20-2014, 03:25 PM
228317, 255805 positive
Others negative
15196350 C > G Z16982
17558968 T > C Z16983 Reqd
Z16983 can now be tested individually from FTDNA's Advanced menu.

R.Rocca
06-21-2014, 02:02 AM
Does the mixed positive/negative results of S17250 in "Dinaric-N" and "Dinaric-S" samples mean that these two groupings are not valid?

lgmayka
06-21-2014, 09:36 AM
Does the mixed positive/negative results of S17250 in "Dinaric-N" and "Dinaric-S" samples mean that these two groupings are not valid?
I myself was never impressed with the alleged N vs. S split. It was a weak statistical correlation, not a solid basis for classification. I'm sure we will eventually find a Bosnian/Croatian clade, and it may fit Ken's definition of Dinaric-S; but I'm also sure that some older Dinaric will happen to fit the same definition.

lgmayka
06-29-2014, 02:55 PM
YFull's new haplotree for I-L621 (http://yfull.com/tree/I-L621/) now embodies some of the structure previously reported in this thread from Big Y results.

lgmayka
07-18-2014, 12:07 AM
YFull's new haplotree for I-L621 (http://yfull.com/tree/I-L621/) now embodies more of the structure previously reported in this thread from Big Y results.

Y4460 = YFC010724 (9028830 G > A)
Y4789 = Z16982 (15196350 C > G)
Y4790 = Z16983 (17558968 T > C)
Y4882 = (21135222 G > A)
Y4883 = Z16970 (22477250 G > C)

Z16983 is already individually testable at FTDNA. On the other hand, Z16970 has already been rejected by Yseq:
---
Couldn't find any specific primers because of a high similarity to other segments on chromosome Y (>91%).
---

I have requested FTDNA to provide individual tests for Y4460 and Y4882.

lgmayka
08-11-2014, 03:27 PM
I have requested FTDNA to provide individual tests for Y4460 and Y4882.
Yseq declined to offer a test for Y4460:
---
Y4460 is 96.5% similar to ChrY:23833810..23834816. SNP isn't recommended.
---

However, Yseq does now offer a SNP test for Y4882 (http://shop.yseq.net/advanced_search_result.php?keywords=y4882&search_in_description=1&x=0&y=0).

lgmayka
09-05-2014, 12:15 AM
A group (project) has been created on YFull for I-L621 (which includes the very common I2a-Dinaric and also the rare I2a-Disles). I have been made its administrator.

I encourage all members of I-L621 on YFull to join the group.

lgmayka
09-13-2014, 02:02 PM
FTDNA now offers individual SNP tests for the following. Consult YFull's haplotree for I-L621 (http://yfull.com/tree/I-L621/).

Y4460 - Downstream from CTS5966 < L621, upstream from Y3118, sibling of S17250
Y4882 - Downstream from Y3548 (not offered) < S17250, sibling of Z16971 and Z16983/Y4790/A356

Not on YFull's haplotree yet:

Z17855 - Downstream from CTS5966, sibling of S17250 and Y4460

R.Rocca
04-01-2015, 02:09 PM
Just got back my father-in-law's results for kit no. 274931 (MDKA: Jozef Gardocki, b.1887, Zalesie, Podlasie, Poland) and he was S17250+.

A few questions...

1. Any recommendation as to which SNP I should test next (Y4882 or Z16971 or Z16983) would be greatly appreciated. Based on geography, I would guess Y4882?
2. Is the under representation of S17250+ in the Balkans due to testing bias compared to say Poland or Germany? If not, is its higher FTDNA frequency north of the Balkans telling us anything?

lgmayka
04-01-2015, 07:40 PM
1. Any recommendation as to which SNP I should test next (Y4882 or Z16971 or Z16983) would be greatly appreciated. Based on geography, I would guess Y4882?
That would be my best guess. In my project, here are the counts of Polish ancestry among those S17250+ who have SNP-tested further (not including multiples from the same family):
Y4882: 6
Z16971: 3
Z16983: 0
None of the above: 2


2. Is the under representation of S17250+ in the Balkans due to testing bias compared to say Poland or Germany? If not, is its higher FTDNA frequency north of the Balkans telling us anything?
In the I2a Project (https://www.familytreedna.com/public/I2aHapGroup/default.aspx?section=yresults), I see a lot of Balkan ancestry marked as S17250* . I suspect that very few men of Balkan ancestry have taken the Big Y test, so their largest clade has not yet been identified.

Asimakidis
06-02-2015, 10:55 AM
That would be my best guess. In my project, here are the counts of Polish ancestry among those S17250+ who have SNP-tested further (not including multiples from the same family):
Y4882: 6
Z16971: 3
Z16983: 0
None of the above: 2

In the I2a Project (https://www.familytreedna.com/public/I2aHapGroup/default.aspx?section=yresults), I see a lot of Balkan ancestry marked as S17250* . I suspect that very few men of Balkan ancestry have taken the Big Y test, so their largest clade has not yet been identified.

My BiGY test will be ready around mid-July. Lets hope it shread some new light on the issue. My grandfather was greek (at least 2 generations back) and lived until 1913 in modern day Istanbul (Constantinople back then). He later resettled (for obvious reasons that we don't need to write here) in the village Kastanies (where the majority of the villagers considered them selves greek-thracians (thrakiotes)) outside of Kilkis before going to Thessaloniki later on in life. The surname Asimakidis is from his side, and they hade a very narrow familytree, due to few siblings etc. I look forward uncovering the truth behind my genes, no matter what they tell me! The truth is more important, than some romantic fantasy about one-selves origin. :)

R.Rocca
06-02-2015, 02:25 PM
That would be my best guess. In my project, here are the counts of Polish ancestry among those S17250+ who have SNP-tested further (not including multiples from the same family):
Y4882: 6
Z16971: 3
Z16983: 0
None of the above: 2

In the I2a Project (https://www.familytreedna.com/public/I2aHapGroup/default.aspx?section=yresults), I see a lot of Balkan ancestry marked as S17250* . I suspect that very few men of Balkan ancestry have taken the Big Y test, so their largest clade has not yet been identified.

Thanks for the recommendation...I just ordered Y4882 for no. 274931.

George
06-02-2015, 02:32 PM
Expecting my S17250 result in a month. After which will do whatever seems appropriate. Will do the Big Y as soon as the $100 discount becomes operative

George
Mesolithic European (if not Paleolithic) scion in both branches Y(I2) and Mt.(U5)

gravetti
06-02-2015, 03:54 PM
That would be my best guess. In my project, here are the counts of Polish ancestry among those S17250+ who have SNP-tested further (not including multiples from the same family):
Y4882: 6
Z16971: 3
Z16983: 0
None of the above: 2

In the I2a Project (https://www.familytreedna.com/public/I2aHapGroup/default.aspx?section=yresults), I see a lot of Balkan ancestry marked as S17250* . I suspect that very few men of Balkan ancestry have taken the Big Y test, so their largest clade has not yet been identified.

I am S17250* too.Tested Z16983-.

lgmayka
06-02-2015, 08:42 PM
Will do the Big Y as soon as the $100 discount becomes operative
I fully expect a discount and/or coupon on the Big Y for Father's Day, because turnaround for that test is now "normal" (https://www.familytreedna.com/learn/testing-process/return-kit-long-will-results-take/):
---
As of May 26, 2015, our testing is running per normal turn around, except the following delays:
mtDNA – 9 to 11 weeks

Y-DNA -10 to 13 weeks

Family Finder – 5 to 6
---

eastara
06-03-2015, 12:16 AM
A mini Dinaric project was sponsored by a person with origin from Macedonia. A number of I2a Dinaric from The Balkans are tested for several SNPs. The first results are out and a picture is emerging.
It seems almost all Dinaric North from the Southern and Eastern Balkans are S17250-, Z17855+
Alternatively. Dinaric South are S17250+, but negative for all known subbranches. Probably a specific Balkan branch exists, which is not discovered yet, due to the small number of people taken the NGS tests. Big Y was no good for identifying the subbranch, somebody has to splurge on the FGS test.

gravetti
06-03-2015, 10:57 AM
There is many I2a S17250+ members in the Polish Project.Are they Din-S?

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/polish/default.aspx?section=yresults

lgmayka
06-03-2015, 08:38 PM
There is many I2a S17250+ members in the Polish Project.Are they Din-S?
No. My understanding is that the (dubious) North vs. South distinction is based primarily on a single Y-STR, DYS448. DYS448=19 is allegedly South, DYS448=20 North. The majority of Polish I2a-Dinaric has 20 at DYS448.

R.Rocca
07-11-2015, 03:49 PM
That would be my best guess. In my project, here are the counts of Polish ancestry among those S17250+ who have SNP-tested further (not including multiples from the same family):
Y4882: 6
Z16971: 3
Z16983: 0
None of the above: 2

In the I2a Project (https://www.familytreedna.com/public/I2aHapGroup/default.aspx?section=yresults), I see a lot of Balkan ancestry marked as S17250* . I suspect that very few men of Balkan ancestry have taken the Big Y test, so their largest clade has not yet been identified.

The results of my father-in-law's kit came back Y4882+. Seems like the modern distribution is mostly confined to the West & East Slavic speaking areas, but not in the Southern Slavic speaking areas.

Asimakidis
07-20-2015, 07:21 PM
I have received my BIG Y now..don't really know what to look for. I have requested the BAM file and should have in a week they said.. What is my next step, what am I looking for?

lgmayka
07-20-2015, 11:08 PM
I have received my BIG Y now..don't really know what to look for. I have requested the BAM file and should have in a week they said.. What is my next step, what am I looking for?
If you are a member of the I2a Project (https://www.familytreedna.com/public/I2aHapGroup/default.aspx?section=yresults), they should probably have reclassified you by now (or will do so soon). If you are not a member, I suggest you join.

Asimakidis
07-22-2015, 01:24 PM
If you are a member of the I2a Project (https://www.familytreedna.com/public/I2aHapGroup/default.aspx?section=yresults), they should probably have reclassified you by now (or will do so soon). If you are not a member, I suggest you join.

I am a member and I was classified as S17250 (which I was even before my Big Y actually , cause I had taken that test). I wanted to know at what point approx my ancestor moved from the north to the south..I read that S17250 was 2100-2300 y old, but I would like to narrow that timeframe if possible. Is it possible to do so through the Big Y test results, or perhaps if I send my results to Yfull for interpretation. All help is accepted :D

lgmayka
07-22-2015, 03:11 PM
I am a member and I was classified as S17250 (which I was even before my Big Y actually , cause I had taken that test).
The I2a Project now classifies you as "I2a2 'Dinaric' ..L621>CTS10228>S17250 and also Y4882- Z16971- Z16983- ( I-S17250*)". This means that you tested negative for all known subclades of S17250. Perhaps an I2a Project administrator can tell you whether you share any SNPs with another I-S17250* (in which case the two of you would form a new subclade).

MT1976
07-22-2015, 11:01 PM
Asim,
It's difficult to guess, but that ancestor probably moved south 1500 years ago. Like some 40-50% of Greeks, you are in large part descended from Slavs

Bane
07-24-2015, 07:43 AM
Asim,
It's difficult to guess, but that ancestor probably moved south 1500 years ago. Like some 40-50% of Greeks, you are in large part descended from Slavs

If I may write my opinion - I agree with the time and the scenario, however, I think that 40-50% is more appropriate for Bulgarians or maybe Macedonians in FYROM.

For Greeks percentage should be lower.

MT1976
07-24-2015, 08:51 AM
If I may write my opinion - I agree with the time and the scenario, however, I think that 40-50% is more appropriate for Bulgarians or maybe Macedonians in FYROM.

For Greeks percentage should be lower.

Ok. And is your opinion based on facts? And of so, which ones ?

Bane
07-24-2015, 11:43 AM
Ok. And is your opinion based on facts? And of so, which ones ?

I would say that we can talk about facts which refer to frequency of certain haplogroups in certain regions, phylogenetic trees of those haplogroups, but there are also some facts from history which we should consider in this case. However if you are asking me if I have the proof - I don't have it as I think no one has it at the moment.

Anyway by combining some of the facts mentioned above I agree with the theory which says that large majority of I-CTS10228, R-Z280 and R-M458 came to Balkans with the Slavs. As far as I understand there are more people which would support that scenario. Further, there have been several publications with the Y-DNA frequencies data for different nations from Southeast Europe. Especially good one was done for Bulgarians with sample size above average. So by checking the frequencies of those three SNPs (I-CTS10228, R-Z280 and R-M458) among the nations we are discussing about here it should not be hard to assume the percentage of people which are descendants of the Slavs which came in the early middle ages.
Finally I'm not saying that among those early Slavs we could find only those 3 SNPs, but I think the 3 should make a very large part.

MT1976
07-24-2015, 12:01 PM
I would say that we can talk about facts which refer to frequency of certain haplogroups in certain regions, phylogenetic trees of those haplogroups, but there are also some facts from history which we should consider in this case. However if you are asking me if I have the proof - I don't have it as I think no one has it at the moment.

Anyway by combining some of the facts mentioned above I agree with the theory which says that large majority of I-CTS10228, R-Z280 and R-M458 came to Balkans with the Slavs. As far as I understand there are more people which would support that scenario. Further, there have been several publications with the Y-DNA frequencies data for different nations from Southeast Europe. Especially good one was done for Bulgarians with sample size above average. So by checking the frequencies of those three SNPs (I-CTS10228, R-Z280 and R-M458) among the nations we are discussing about here it should not be hard to assume the percentage of people which are descendants of the Slavs which came in the early middle ages.
Finally I'm not saying that among those early Slavs we could find only those 3 SNPs, but I think the 3 should make a very large part.

Yes. That's what I thought. So combined aren't they almost 30 - 40 % even in Greeks, as I said ? (obviously not Cypriots, or Cretans, but mainland Greeks)
The problem is what to make of lineages like I1 and R1-L23.

Trojet
07-24-2015, 12:07 PM
Yes. That's what I thought. So combined aren't they almost 30 - 40 % even in Greeks, as I said ? (obviously not Cypriots, or Cretans, but mainland Greeks)
The problem is what to make of lineages like I1 and R1-L23.

The consensus is that R1b-L23 in the Balkans is mostly Indo European (bronze age). Not sure about I1, but I don't think it came with the Slavs, maybe Celts? I do agree about the other haplogroups in Greeks being 30-40% "Slavic".

Bane
07-24-2015, 10:23 PM
The problem is what to make of lineages like I1 and R1-L23.

I1 is indeed the hardest to understand. The two most frequent I1 subclades in SE Europe should be I-Z63 and I-P109. There is also some I-Z58 and I'm not sure about I-L22(xP109). I think that each subclade should be analysed separately.
Based on what we have so far it is not likely that I-P109 has been in SE Europe before Common Era. But it is hard to say if it came with the Slavs. On the other side it is possible that I-Z63 has been in the region for a fairly longer time.

Regarding R-L23 and R-M269(xL51) in general, it is almost sure it has been in SE Europe a couple of thousand years BCE.

MT1976
07-25-2015, 12:16 AM
I1 is indeed the hardest to understand. The two most frequent I1 subclades in SE Europe should be I-Z63 and I-P109. There is also some I-Z58 and I'm not sure about I-L22(xP109). I think that each subclade should be analysed separately.
Based on what we have so far it is not likely that I-P109 has been in SE Europe before Common Era. But it is hard to say if it came with the Slavs. On the other side it is possible that I-Z63 has been in the region for a fairly longer time.

Regarding R-L23 and R-M269(xL51) in general, it is almost sure it has been in SE Europe a couple of thousand years BCE.

Interesting. What data your basing this subclade frequency / distribution on ?
Yep, very hard to unravel . I1 was in SEE since neolithic, probably palaeolithic. Then there were Gepid, Herul etc mercenaries, then even "Saxon" miners in Middle Ages, etc...

Bane
07-25-2015, 10:33 AM
What data your basing this subclade frequency / distribution on ?

Family Tree DNA - yDNA Haplogroup I (https://www.familytreedna.com/public/yDNA_I1)
Y-Chromosome Analysis in Individuals Bearing the Basarab Name of the First Dynasty of Wallachian Kings (http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0041803)
Shared language, diverging genetic histories: high-resolution analysis of Y-chromosome variability in Calabrian and Sicilian Arbereshe (http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/vaop/ncurrent/full/ejhg2015138a.html)
High levels of Paleolithic Y-chromosome lineages characterize Serbia (http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S037811191200073X)

The key is to know which I1 subclades can be found among Albanians. Unfortunately recent study (one of the links above) did not provide good enough answer to that question.

R.Rocca
07-25-2015, 11:43 AM
This thread is about Big-Y results for I2a Dinaric, so please stay on topic.

Asimakidis
07-29-2015, 11:17 PM
I am a member and I was classified as S17250 (which I was even before my Big Y actually , cause I had taken that test). I wanted to know at what point approx my ancestor moved from the north to the south..I read that S17250 was 2100-2300 y old, but I would like to narrow that timeframe if possible. Is it possible to do so through the Big Y test results, or perhaps if I send my results to Yfull for interpretation. All help is accepted :D

I accept the fact that my granpa's line moved down around 600 years ago, seems like a good estimate.. here is the face of I2a-din?

This was Christodoulos:

5347

Asimakidis
07-29-2015, 11:22 PM
The I2a Project now classifies you as "I2a2 'Dinaric' ..L621>CTS10228>S17250 and also Y4882- Z16971- Z16983- ( I-S17250*)". This means that you tested negative for all known subclades of S17250. Perhaps an I2a Project administrator can tell you whether you share any SNPs with another I-S17250* (in which case the two of you would form a new subclade).

I was the only one in my branch at the moment. Although I was given a name that was in another project, but was really close to my big Y(?).. not exactly sure about this..but the name was from a Croatian.

eastara
08-01-2015, 03:00 AM
Those, who show closest on your FTDNA Big Y matches often may belong to slighter different branches. The results should be analysed at BAM file level and STR markers also taken into account.
Practically all Balkan Dinaric South are for now I-S17250*, so you are in a big company there.

George
08-30-2015, 02:13 PM
Interesting. What data your basing this subclade frequency / distribution on ?
Yep, very hard to unravel . I1 was in SEE since neolithic, probably palaeolithic. Then there were Gepid, Herul etc mercenaries, then even "Saxon" miners in Middle Ages, etc... Hopefully this won't be too off topic (it can always be moved (:=) One other source of I1 (possibly also R1a and I2a) might be the "Bastarnian" relocations into the Roman Empire areas. Difficult to trace exactly though, but should be kept in mind. I know of three major ones, historically documented: (1) The movement of most "Peucini" ca. 29 BCE to an area close to today's Kosovo (noted by Dio Cassius) (2) The transplantation of ca. 100,000 "Zarubinians" in the mid-1rst c. AD (noted as Bastarnians in the funeral stone of Nero's Danubian area commander) and (3) the transplantation of the remaining Bastarnian Peucini by Emperor Probus in 280 AD).

eastara
08-31-2015, 11:26 AM
In case you have not read the I2a blog yet, a fourth I-CTS10228 "Dinaric" branch is identified:

Almost everyone in I-CTS10228 belongs to one of three branches: I-S17250, I-Y4460 or I-Z17855. But there are a few people who are CTS10228+ and S17250- Y4460- Z17855-.

We now know that there is a fourth branch called I-Y2512. Two people have done Big Ys which show that they belong to this group: kit 4605 from the "Jewish Dinaric" cluster, and kit N80837 who has Greek ancestry and is part of the Mediterranean Dinaric cluster. Kit 54093 has also received Y2512+ results from YSeq, he is also part of the Mediterranean Dinaric cluster and more specifically the New Mexico Dinaric cluster. Finally there is an anonymous sample (GS000018440-DID) from Chuvashia that was sequenced by the Estonian Biocentre and found to belong to I-Y2512,

http://i2aproject.blogspot.de/2015_08_01_archive.html

The spread of this branch is very wide - from Spain to Chivashia! Must be some older offshoot and maybe not proper "Dinaric" like Disles.

lgmayka
08-31-2015, 07:46 PM
The spread of this branch is very wide - from Spain to Chivashia! Must be some older offshoot and maybe not proper "Dinaric" like Disles.
The newly discovered subclade, marked by A2512 (http://www.yseq.net/product_info.php?products_id=10603)(Y2512 is a typo), is downstream of CTS10228 and is definitely "Dinaric" (according to the old Nordtvedt definition) in Y-STR haplotype. But its wide geographical distribution is indeed anomalous, calling into question the usual identification of I-CTS10228 with Slavic expansion. Perhaps only the I-Y3548 subclade (http://yfull.com/tree/I-Y3548/) expanded explosively with the Slavs per se, and the other I-CTS10228 subclades reflect a slightly earlier, gentler expansion?

The blog post (http://i2aproject.blogspot.com/2015/08/august-24-2015-tree-for-i-l621.html) makes clear that this new subclade is actually marked by two SNPs: A2512 and the unnamed 9853064. Moreover, the Greek and Chuvash examples share yet another SNP, A7134 (http://www.yseq.net/product_info.php?products_id=16876).

In any case, we must recall that besides the four subclades of I-CTS10228, we still have one stubborn singleton (http://yfull.com/tree/I-CTS10228*/), with patrilineage from southeastern Poland.

George
08-31-2015, 09:40 PM
The newly discovered subclade, marked by A2512 (http://www.yseq.net/product_info.php?products_id=10603)(Y2512 is a typo), is downstream of CTS10228 and is definitely "Dinaric" (according to the old Nordtvedt definition) in Y-STR haplotype. But its wide geographical distribution is indeed anomalous, calling into question the usual identification of I-CTS10228 with Slavic expansion. Perhaps only the I-Y3548 subclade (http://yfull.com/tree/I-Y3548/) expanded explosively with the Slavs per se, and the other I-CTS10228 subclades reflect a slightly earlier, gentler expansion?

The blog post (http://i2aproject.blogspot.com/2015/08/august-24-2015-tree-for-i-l621.html) makes clear that this new subclade is actually marked by two SNPs: A2512 and the unnamed 9853064. Moreover, the Greek and Chuvash examples share yet another SNP, A7134 (http://www.yseq.net/product_info.php?products_id=16876).

In any case, we must recall that besides the four subclades of I-CTS10228, we still have one stubborn singleton (http://yfull.com/tree/I-CTS10228*/), with patrilineage from southeastern Poland.

Question from someone still at genetics 101: Do we assume that all those classified as CTS10228 (including the members of the A2512 clade and the honourable singleton ;) all have the 21 additional SNP's hidden
in the Yfull chart? And that the other group defining SNP's (like S17520 et sim.) are all downstream from these 21?

lgmayka
08-31-2015, 10:15 PM
Do we assume that all those classified as CTS10228 (including the members of the A2512 clade and the honourable singleton ;) all have the 21 additional SNP's hidden
in the Yfull chart? And that the other group defining SNP's (like S17520 et sim.) are all downstream from these 21?
It's not an assumption but an observation. YFull lists a total of 24 SNPs at the I-CTS10228 level. This means that any listed subclade has all of those SNPs and more. The one singleton has all of those 24 SNPs also, otherwise the singleton would force a split into two levels.

Apparently, no member of the new A2512 subclade has submitted his BAM file to YFull yet (although at least one has promised to do so). However, an administrator of the I2a Project has--if I understand correctly--gone over their VCF files thoroughly, and is quite convinced that A2512 is entirely downstream of the CTS10228 level. But I suppose we won't be absolutely certain of this until at least one A2512+ example is analyzed by YFull.

George
09-02-2015, 12:23 AM
The newly discovered subclade, marked by A2512 (http://www.yseq.net/product_info.php?products_id=10603)(Y2512 is a typo), is downstream of CTS10228 and is definitely "Dinaric" (according to the old Nordtvedt definition) in Y-STR haplotype. But its wide geographical distribution is indeed anomalous, calling into question the usual identification of I-CTS10228 with Slavic expansion. Perhaps only the I-Y3548 subclade (http://yfull.com/tree/I-Y3548/) expanded explosively with the Slavs per se, and the other I-CTS10228 subclades reflect a slightly earlier, gentler expansion?
.

There's one thing I can't seem to understand about these Yfull numbers. Leaving aside how they figure out "when" a particular group was "formed" (3,500BCE for CTS10228) I am quite confused by their TMRCA estimates. We are told that for the entire group the TMRCA is ca.300 BCE. But when we examine individuals we see something quite different. For instance, YF02420's initiator seems to date from 1238 BCE, YF02675's from 1227 BCE, YF01914's from 1185 BCE, and the 10228's singleton's from 178 BCE... The entire list is full of such differences. So what would be the point of this "300BCE" date for the entire clade?

lgmayka
09-02-2015, 03:48 AM
For instance, YF02420's initiator seems to date from 1238 BCE, YF02675's from 1227 BCE, YF01914's from 1185 BCE, and the 10228's singleton's from 178 BCE.
That's what a random distribution looks like. YFull is essentially averaging across the samples.

George
09-02-2015, 02:47 PM
That's what a random distribution looks like. YFull is essentially averaging across the samples.

Yes. I realized that. Well since I am no mathematician I am not about to question their procedures. It just seems strange to me that "zero results" kits like YF O3992, 04010, 04043, 04018, and 04022 should be included in the computations. What possible information does one get out of such?

Also: When you press "more" for 10228 and 4002 the age of these clades (top line) seem closer to those specified re their TMRCA than re their "formation". Is that the intention?

lgmayka
09-03-2015, 12:39 AM
It just seems strange to me that "zero results" kits like YF O3992, 04010, 04043, 04018, and 04022 should be included in the computations.
The zeroes are incompletely analyzed samples. They are not actually included in the calculations. The More screen is incorrect in that respect.

When you press "more" for 10228 and 4002 the age of these clades (top line) seem closer to those specified re their TMRCA than re their "formation". Is that the intention?
Yes, the TMRCA for a clade is calculated/estimated from the samples within that clade. The "formation" date of a clade is simply the TMRCA of its parent.

George
09-03-2015, 01:14 AM
"The zeroes are incompletely analyzed samples. They are not actually included in the calculations. The More screen is incorrect in that respect." (L.Mayka)

Correct. They should revise all the data for which they have used these "zeroes". For instance the total for the 10 analyzed Y-4460 is 22,376, which yields their figure of 1723 only if the three "zeroes" are added as dividers to these 10. Without this addition the resulting figure would be 2238, which would change the age indicated at the top left from 2010 to 2139 (and it should be even higher because of the "zeroes" falsifying the results of S17250 in the same way... And that's only one of the problems. But I'll leave it here.

lgmayka
09-03-2015, 02:29 AM
They should revise all the data for which they have used these "zeroes".
Perhaps I wasn't clear enough. The actual tree does not use incompletely analyzed samples. The More screen is very new, and apparently still has at least one bug--it falsely includes the zeroes.

George
09-04-2015, 07:07 PM
Perhaps I wasn't clear enough. The actual tree does not use incompletely analyzed samples. The More screen is very new, and apparently still has at least one bug--it falsely includes the zeroes.

I have another question. What does "average number of SNP's" actually mean? What explains this difference? One notices that the MORE SNP's a sample has the DEEPER the age, and the LESS it has the YOUNGER the age.

Pribislav
04-28-2016, 11:07 AM
How many I2a-Din BigY results are there to date? And has there been any progress concerning S17250 phylogeny?

lgmayka
04-28-2016, 02:50 PM
How many I2a-Din BigY results are there to date? And has there been any progress concerning S17250 phylogeny?
You can count them yourself from YFull's haplotree (https://yfull.com/tree/I-L621/). Notice how I-S17250 exploded onto the scene about 1850 years ago. In contrast, we have only one singleton left from the original expansion of I-CTS10228 about 2200 years ago.

We have received many results from the new I-P37 SNP Pack, but as far as I know, no new cases of I-CTS10228* . (Can an I2a administrator please check this?) The I2a Project spreadsheet (https://www.familytreedna.com/public/I2aHapGroup?iframe=yresults) confusingly lumps the one genuine I-CTS10228* into a category with men of Greek ancestry who probably belong to I-A2512. Note that N80837 has definitely tested A2512+ (https://www.familytreedna.com/public/I2aHapGroup?iframe=ysnp) .

Pribislav
08-29-2016, 08:41 PM
According to Bernie Cullen's newest I-L621 tree, we might've finally got the SNP defining obscure Dinaric South cluster, PH908. It is located between S17250 and Z16983, and while seven Dinaric North individuals (including S17250+ ones) were all PH908-, all three Dinaric South individuals (one S17250* and two Z16983+) were PH908+. The problem many have had with defining new branches downstream of S17250 might be due to the fact that this SNP isn't covered with BigY, but the good news is it can be tested with YSeq.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B_Hsg3bfRY-cY1A4XzYtcktqUjg/view

Pribislav
09-24-2016, 12:05 PM
According to Bernie Cullen's newest I-L621 tree, we might've finally got the SNP defining obscure Dinaric South cluster, PH908. It is located between S17250 and Z16983, and while seven Dinaric North individuals (including S17250+ ones) were all PH908-, all three Dinaric South individuals (one S17250* and two Z16983+) were PH908+. The problem many have had with defining new branches downstream of S17250 might be due to the fact that this SNP isn't covered with BigY, but the good news is it can be tested with YSeq.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B_Hsg3bfRY-cY1A4XzYtcktqUjg/view

Now it's official:

http://i2aproject.blogspot.rs/2016/09/the-dinaric-south-cluster-is-defined-by.html

Asimakidis
09-24-2016, 12:39 PM
Cool. How do I know if I should test?

Gravetto-Danubian
09-24-2016, 01:01 PM
Cool. How do I know if I should test?

You should
You'd prob be PH908+

Asimakidis
09-24-2016, 02:49 PM
Hi again!
This still applies if I am labeled as Y3548 at Yfull (sorry for the newb questions :)).

You should
You'd prob be PH908+

Pribislav
09-24-2016, 03:04 PM
Hi again!
This still applies if I am labeled as Y3548 at Yfull (sorry for the newb questions :)).

PH908 is downstream of Y3548/S17250, so you should definitely test it.

Asimakidis
09-24-2016, 03:37 PM
Ok. Ordered it!

Hmm. Just got contacted by a forum friend that I already had it on my Big Y/Yfull result. Well, I guess I learned something :))

http://www.anthrogenica.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=11814&stc=1
http://www.anthrogenica.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=11815&stc=1

Asimakidis
09-25-2016, 07:07 AM
Exciting!

Asimakidis
09-25-2016, 04:57 PM
What is the age estimation on ph908?

Pribislav
09-25-2016, 05:31 PM
What is the age estimation on ph908?

I would say around 1700 ybp.

Asimakidis
10-05-2016, 07:45 AM
The tree att Yfull is now updated. Seems my extra test at Yseq was in vain :)

Asimakidis
10-14-2016, 07:48 AM
Y seq confirms:
PH907 ChrY 14106855 14106855 C-PH908 ChrY 14107064 14107064 T+

Pribislav
03-01-2018, 11:33 AM
PH908 tree:

21856