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View Full Version : Any explanation for the presence of epicanthic folds among berbers ?



Cabaon
02-07-2021, 01:29 PM
Some kind of convergent evolution ? A link with iberomaurusians ? A khoisan-like type of ancestor ?

For example L. C. Briggs talks about some mesolithic skulls having "bosopoid" traits (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boskop_Man) but I don't know if his works are viewed as "outdated" by now :


Fragments of only three individuals are of Paleolithic (Pleistocene) age. The Rabat find from the Atlantic coast and the Tangier specimens (two individuals), described by Senyurek, suggest Neanderthal-like people. [...] All the Mesolithic skulls are strictly modern (sapiens) in type and represent a very mixed population judging from the variability. For comparative series he uses published data from Afalou, Guanches, Canary Islands, Ancient Greeks, Early Kentucky and the Pecos Pueblo Indians. Some critics may not approve of these rwmparisons and Briggs’ methodology. He used them partly from necessity of finding adequate data similar in time, space and/or ecological limits.
Most of this report (55 pages) is devoted to the thorough description of 56 skulls of Mesolithic age which Rriggs has classified into 4 morphological types. Type A, called ‘ ‘Palaemediterranean, ” are perhaps the earliest Northwest African sapiens human beings - a long headed strain equivalent to Combe Capelle. Type B, named “African Mediterranean,” possibly of Near East origin, appears to have some “Bosopoid” traits. Type C, called “African Alpine,” is a brachycephalic group. Type D is a mixture which occurred locally between the “African Mediterranean’’ and “ Alpines. ’’ This is a curiously varying group and is perhaps most like the Hotu People of northern Iran. The Neolithic remains consist of only 7 individuals, 5 typed as a northern series and said to be the result of a stabilized mixed-group containing some Negro admixture. The remaining two are a southern negroid type resembling the “Hamitic” strain presently found in the modern Fulah, an old (5,000 years) racial type originating in East Africa.

The stone age races of Northwest Africa by L. Cabot Briggs,1955

davit
02-07-2021, 02:01 PM
People in the first, second and fifth picture could easily pass in SE/E Asia imo. Not sure what is going on. Usually Europeans with these folds still look European. Why is it different for Berbers in these pics?

Cabaon
02-07-2021, 02:26 PM
People in the first, second and fifth picture could easily pass in SE/E Asia imo. Not sure what is going on. Usually Europeans with these folds still look European. Why is it different for Berbers in these pics?

probably skin pigmentation and hair color more similar to what can be found in Asia but I might be wrong

ThaYamamoto
02-13-2021, 08:44 PM
I've noticed this phenomenon and an ex told me that it was common in the south [of Morocco] but got no idea if that's true or not. It's pretty cool imo , the diversity we express as humans.

Cabaon
02-13-2021, 09:02 PM
I've noticed this phenomenon and an ex told me that it was common in the south [of Morocco] but got no idea if that's true or not. It's pretty cool imo , the diversity we express as humans.

C.Coon said that chleuh in south morocco have a 12 % incidence of epicanthic fold. We also know that these people tend to score the highest amount of IBM ancestry in all North Africa so maybe there is a link with those paleolithic populations.

gsenden
03-04-2021, 09:37 PM
Indochina: When 85 Moroccan deserters were repatriated from Vietnam to Morocco

...Suite : https://www.yabiladi.com/articles/details/58048/indochine-quand-deserteurs-marocains-rapatries.html

"Some got married to Vietnamese women, had children. 65 Vietnamese women decided to come to Morocco with their husbands and children."

and a youtube video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oeFRsV-IVTY

rikvdb
03-10-2021, 05:08 AM
These people seem influenced by the Asiatic race somehow.
Doesn't seem isolate like Khoisan people.

Cabaon
05-08-2021, 02:50 PM
Indochina: When 85 Moroccan deserters were repatriated from Vietnam to Morocco

...Suite : https://www.yabiladi.com/articles/details/58048/indochine-quand-deserteurs-marocains-rapatries.html

"Some got married to Vietnamese women, had children. 65 Vietnamese women decided to come to Morocco with their husbands and children."

and a youtube video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oeFRsV-IVTY

3 pictures here weren't even taken in Morocco...also I'm speaking about a more wider phenomenon that is quite common among berber communities. Anthropologists who noticed it predates the migration of such mixed couples.

Mirix
05-12-2021, 02:55 PM
The nature of epicanticfold and the explanation behind it has been discussed in this thread: Epicanthic fold in North Western European (https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?13729-Epicanthic-fold-in-North-Western-European&p=726696#post726696)

Epicanticfold is most likely an old archaic human ancestral trait that some populations retained more than others. Owed Seeing that there is such lack of sensible evolutionary explanations for it.

So it has probably has nothing to do with iberomaurusians or khoisan ancestry.

Cabaon
05-13-2021, 02:18 PM
it's seems to be indeed linked to aterians :

https://i.imgur.com/6nBFbnY.png

from "the aith waryagher of the moroccan Rif" by David Hart

lana6765
05-13-2021, 10:30 PM
C.Coon said that chleuh in south morocco have a 12 % incidence of epicanthic fold. We also know that these people tend to score the highest amount of IBM ancestry in all North Africa so maybe there is a link with those paleolithic populations.

It sounds like the incidence is higher in this population than it is in Northern Europeans. The only exceptions are European ethnicities with real amounts of Siberian or Central Asian admixture. Sami, Mari and Chuvash all have real and provable Siberian admixture so any higher incidence in these populations could be explained by old links to Siberia. In the rest of Northern Europe epicanthal folds are rare. They still occur though!

It could have something to do with archaic humans maybe? But there seems to be something very unique about this population. It’s probably best not to assume it’s the same for Northern Europeans and North Africans.

Milkyway
05-15-2021, 09:40 AM
Considering there's no East Asian DNA in North Africans, the most likely explanation is that that eye shape evolved more than once in humans. Khoisan/Bushmen also have them, and they're not closely related to Asians. I'd like to know whether what we call "epicanthic folds" describe exactly the same eye shape or there's some variation in the fold pattern between the groups that have them (for example, Native Americans also have almond-shaped eyes, but theirs are not exactly like those of people from E. Asia). We have other examples of traits that likely evolved more than once, like wavy hair (present in Europe/W. Asia, South Asia and Australia) and afro-textured hair (Africa, SE Asia, India, PNG...).

lana6765
05-15-2021, 03:47 PM
The nature of epicanticfold and the explanation behind it has been discussed in this thread: Epicanthic fold in North Western European (https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?13729-Epicanthic-fold-in-North-Western-European&p=726696#post726696)

Epicanticfold is most likely an old archaic human ancestral trait that some populations retained more than others. Owed Seeing that there is such lack of sensible evolutionary explanations for it.

I’m not certain. It’s very rare in non Siberian/Asian admixed Europeans and even then some admixture has bled into nearby populations. I’m North West European and I have this trait. But I do get faint traces of Siberian and in one commercial test ‘Finnish’ and ‘Slavic’. I don’t know where’s it’s from, but theoretically the trait *could* have gotten passed down from some old admixture (e.g. from 500-5000 years ago) rather than from archaic humans.

I think it’s unlikely that for North Africans it comes from Siberia, however. Unless it came by way of West Asia. Perhaps there was some undiscovered evolutionary advantage to having a mutation linked with this trait in that area.

Mirix
05-15-2021, 05:27 PM
I’m not certain. It’s very rare in non Siberian/Asian admixed Europeans and even then some admixture has bled into nearby populations. I’m North West European and I have this trait. But I do get faint traces of Siberian and in one commercial test ‘Finnish’ and ‘Slavic’. I don’t know where’s it’s from, but theoretically the trait *could* have gotten passed down from some old admixture (e.g. from 500-5000 years ago) rather than from archaic humans.

I think it’s unlikely that for North Africans it comes from Siberia, however. Unless it came by way of West Asia. Perhaps there was some undiscovered evolutionary advantage to having a mutation linked with this trait in that area.

The traits survival in some groups could be more likely be owed to founder effect. It's perhaps explains the prevelance more in less diverse groups and less in more diverse popualtions . This could be the reason it survived in Siberians and Asians , rather than not.

For it to have evolved more than once in different populations confounds on the fact there is no logically evolutionary explanation for it.

Constantine
05-15-2021, 08:33 PM
Considering there's no East Asian DNA in North Africans, the most likely explanation is that that eye shape evolved more than once in humans. Khoisan/Bushmen also have them, and they're not closely related to Asians. I'd like to know whether what we call "epicanthic folds" describe exactly the same eye shape or there's some variation in the fold pattern between the groups that have them (for example, Native Americans also have almond-shaped eyes, but theirs are not exactly like those of people from E. Asia). We have other examples of traits that likely evolved more than once, like wavy hair (present in Europe/W. Asia, South Asia and Australia) and afro-textured hair (Africa, SE Asia, India, PNG...).

The "East Asian" EDAR variant has also been found in the Yoruba, as another example.

dodona
06-10-2021, 04:03 PM
Considering there's no East Asian DNA in North Africans, the most likely explanation is that that eye shape evolved more than once in humans. Khoisan/Bushmen also have them, and they're not closely related to Asians..
it's not the same, clearly unrelated.