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TigerMW
02-09-2021, 08:08 PM
I confess I've not focused on the older R1b samples like I should so thought it was time to take a deeper look. These are the R1b samples listed in Reich's Allen Ancient database that are 5000 Years Before Present (YBP) or more. I translated the haplogroup labels to SNP based branch path labels. It's not perfect and I stopped tacking on SNPs a layer or so down from P312's major subclades. These are not necessarily terminal (most youthful) public haplogroups. This is just what the research groups could derive given the coverage.

https://reich.hms.harvard.edu/allen-ancient-dna-resource-aadr-downloadable-genotypes-present-day-and-ancient-dna-data

ISOGG tree
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1JvXoBCBBk42DIF7BYPaLsQ1jojN3etgDR8pByaTRnq4/edit#gid=1078904281

FTDNA tree
https://www.familytreedna.com/public/y-dna-haplotree/R;name=R-M343

ID MeanYBP StdDevYrs Location Haplogroup

AfontovaGora2 16767 96 Russia_AfontovaGora2.SG Afontova Gora R1b R-M343

Villabruna 14021 126 Italy_North_Villabruna_HG Veneto, Villabruna R1b R-M343

I5235 10835 194 Serbia_IronGates_Mesolithic Padina R1b R-M343

I5240 10805 165 Serbia_IronGates_Mesolithic Padina R1b R-M343

I5237 9500 1010 Serbia_IronGates_Mesolithic Padina R1b R-M343

I4081 9361 99 Romania_IronGates_Mesolithic_published Iron Gates, Ostrovul Corbului R1b R-M343

I4630 9218 111 Latvia_HG Zvejnieki R1b1a1 R-M343>L754>L389>P297

I1734 9159 97 Ukraine_N Vasil'evka R1b R-M343

M96 8825 217 Romania_IronGates_Mesolithic.SG Iron Gates, Schela Cladovei R1b R-M343

M95 8814 151 Romania_IronGates_Mesolithic.SG Iron Gates, Schela Cladovei R1b R-M343

I4916 8763 128 Serbia_IronGates_Mesolithic Hajduka Vodenica R1b R-M343

I5408 8704 155 Romania_IronGates_Mesolithic Iron Gates, Ostrovul Corbului R1b R-M343

I5408 8704 155 Romania_IronGates_Mesolithic.SG Iron Gates, Ostrovul Corbului R1b R-M343

I5411 8600 202 Romania_IronGates_Mesolithic Iron Gates, Schela Cladovei R1b R-M343

I5772 8450 346 Serbia_IronGates_Mesolithic Vlasac R1b R-M343

I4432 7958 41 Latvia_HG Zvejnieki R1b1a1 R-M343>L754>L389>P297

I5232 7901 64 Serbia_IronGates_Mesolithic_o Padina R1b R-M343

I4626 7677 57 Latvia_HG.SG Zvejnieki R1b1a1 R-M343>L754>L389>P297

I4626 7677 57 Latvia_HG Zvejnieki R1b1a1 R-M343>L754>L389>P297

I4439 7646 36 Latvia_HG Zvejnieki R1b1a1 R-M343>L754>L389>P297

I0124 7544 32 Russia_HG_Samara Samara Oblast, Volga River Valley, Sok River, Lebyazhinka R1b1a1 R-M343>L754>L389>P297

I4434 7441 50 Latvia_HG Zvejnieki R1b1a1 R-M343>L754>L389>P297

I4114 7350 47 Ukraine_N Dereivka I R1b R-M343

I5893 7249 48 Ukraine_N_1d.rel.I5881_published Dereivka I R1b R-M343

I3718 7217 43 Ukraine_N Dereivka I R1b R-M343

I5879 7208 40 Ukraine_N_brother.I8590_father.or.son.I3718 Dereivka I R1b R-M343

R6 7202 47 Italy_N_oWHG.SG Grotta Continenza R1b R-M343

CHA002 7127 73 Spain_EN Cueva de Chaves R1b R-M343

Donkalnis7 7110 114 Lithuania_EMN_Narva Donkalnis R1b1a1a R-M343>L754>L389>P297>M73

I0411 7107 66 Spain_EN_father.or.son.I0410 Els Trocs R1b R-M343

I0410 7106 66 Spain_EN Els Trocs R1b R-M343

I4112 7100 289 Ukraine_N_published Dereivka I R1b R-M343

I5890 7092 56 Ukraine_N Dereivka I R1b R-M343

I5881 7077 45 Ukraine_N_published Dereivka I R1b R-M343

I5883 7048 68 Ukraine_N Dereivka I R1b R-M343

I4628 7033 108 Latvia_HG Zvejnieki R1b1a1 R-M343>L754>L389>P297

PG2001 6850 46 Russia_Steppe_Eneolithic Piedmont, Progress 2 R1b1a2 R-M343>L754>L389>V1636

I0122 6788 44 Russia_Khvalynsk_Eneolithic Samara Oblast, Volga River Valley, Khvalynsk II R1b1a2 R-M343>L754>L389>V1636

Kivisaare3 6594 53 Estonia_EMN_Narva Kivisaare R1b1a1
R-M343>L754>L389>P297

I2181 6458 42 Bulgaria_C_oSteppe_published Smyadovo **no call without Lazaridis' R-M269

I2430 6448 41 Bulgaria_C Smyadovo R1b R-M343

ANI153 6434 42 Bulgaria_Varna_C_o2 Varna R1b R-M343


I4436 6109 70 Latvia_MN_o2 Zvejnieki R1b1a1 R-M343>L754>L389>P297

PG2004 6088 60 Russia_Steppe_Eneolithic Piedmont, Progress 2 R1b1a2 R-M343>L754>L389>V1636

I4627 6071 81 Latvia_MN Zvejnieki R1b1a1 R-M343>L754>L389>P297

Tamula3 5666 53 Estonia_MN_CCC_2 Tamula R1b R-M343

I0559 5530 39 Germany_MN_Baalberge Quedlinburg Site IX R1b R-M343

I1593 5527 37 Germany_Blatterhohle_MN Blatterhole Cave R1b R-M343

SA6010 5400 58 Russia_Caucasus_Eneolithic Kaspi steppe, Šarachalsun 6 R1b1a2 R-M343>L754>L389>V1636

ATP3 5397 44 Spain_C.SG El Portalon Cave, Sierra de Atapuerca R1b1a1 R-M343>L754>L389>P297

BOT14 5314 153 Kazakhstan_Botai_Eneolithic Botai R1b1a1a1 R-M343>L754>L389>P297>M73>Y13202>Y13204>M478

JK2804 5198 91 Italy_Sardinia_C_o Carbonia, CI, Cannas di Sotto, t. 12 R1b R-M343

ART038 5175 83 Turkey_Arslantepe_LateC Malatya Province, Arslantepe R1b1a2 R-M343>L754>L389>V1636

I1594 5140 96 Germany_Blatterhohle_MN Blatterhole Cave R1b R-M343

I0429 5074 126 Russia_Samara_EBA_Yamnaya Samara Oblast, Volga River Valley, Sok River, Lopatino I R1b1a1b1b3 R-M343>L754>L389>P297>M269>L23>Z2103>M12149>Z2106

I5270 5058 100 Russia_Afanasievo Elo 1 R1b1a1b1b R-M343>L754>L389>P297>M269>L23>Z2103

I0439 5021 104 Russia_Samara_EBA_Yamnaya Samara Oblast, Volga River Valley, Sok River, Lopatino I R1b1a1b R-M343>L754>L389>P297>M269

I6222 5009 101 Mongolia_Chalcolithic_Afanasievo_1_contam Bayankhongor aimag, Erdenetsogt sum, Shatar chuluu kurgan 2 R1b1a1b1a1 R-M343>L754>L389>P297>M269>L23>L51>P310

I0444 5003 129 Russia_Samara_EBA_Yamnaya Samara Oblast, Volga River Valley, Kutuluk River, Kutuluk R1b1a1b1b3 R-M343>L754>L389>P297>M269>L23>Z2103>M12149>Z2106


Keep in mind that R1b-M269's phylogenetic block has about 96 equivalent SNPs.

What's the big picture of the R1b world before 3000 BC?

rms2
02-09-2021, 08:30 PM
Some of those actually belong to R1b-V88 and other xL389 groups. It's hard to get a picture with so many "M343" listings.

Unfortunately, there are people who will seize on them to advance an all-too-familiar agenda, but maybe a lot of those people are no longer at Anthrogenica.

With the really old Eurasian hunter-gatherers, it's well known they wandered widely in search of game. The occasional stray "R1b" can turn up anywhere from the Siberian Pacific coast to Portugal.

TigerMW
02-10-2021, 12:48 AM
Some of those actually belong to R1b-V88 and other xL389 groups. It's hard to get a picture with so many "M343" listings.

Yes, I am hoping people on this forum will spot those where there are likely downstream calls.


Unfortunately, there are people who will seize on them to advance an all-too-familiar agenda, but maybe a lot of those people are no longer at Anthrogenica.
In that sense, this is a good place to discuss these. There are plenty ideas running around out there. I think it is best to have the information out and develop intelligent perspectives on it before being blindsided.

My guess is, a typical response I might have is:
There are 96 SNPs in the phylogenetic equivalent block for R-M269. If no one can call it R-M269 then it probably isn't. The result is an ancient find that is not known to be R-M269 is fairly meaningless to the large re-population of Europe during the Bronze Age.


With the really old Eurasian hunter-gatherers, it's well known they wandered widely in search of game. The occasional stray "R1b" can turn up anywhere from the Siberian Pacific coast to Portugal.
I can't explain it all culturally except the widespread hunter-gatherers, etc. On the other hand I haven't tried.

I need to understand R1b's early branching better any way. It's only good to understand.

dsm
02-10-2021, 01:36 AM
...
Unfortunately, there are people who will seize on them to advance an all-too-familiar agenda, but maybe a lot of those people are no longer at Anthrogenica.
...


Care to elaborate ? (saves trying to 2nd guess) - thanks

alchemist223
02-10-2021, 01:41 AM
I confess I've not focused on the older R1b samples like I should so thought it was time to take a deeper look. These are the R1b samples listed in Reich's Allen Ancient database that are 5000 Years Before Present (YBP) or more. I translated the haplogroup labels to SNP based branch path labels. It's not perfect and I stopped tacking on SNPs a layer or so down from P312's major subclades. These are not necessarily terminal (most youthful) public haplogroups. This is just what the research groups could derive given the coverage.

https://reich.hms.harvard.edu/allen-ancient-dna-resource-aadr-downloadable-genotypes-present-day-and-ancient-dna-data

ISOGG tree
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1JvXoBCBBk42DIF7BYPaLsQ1jojN3etgDR8pByaTRnq4/edit#gid=1078904281

FTDNA tree
https://www.familytreedna.com/public/y-dna-haplotree/R;name=R-M343

ID MeanYBP StdDevYrs Location Haplogroup

AfontovaGora2 16767 96 Russia_AfontovaGora2.SG Afontova Gora R1b R-M343

Villabruna 14021 126 Italy_North_Villabruna_HG Veneto, Villabruna R1b R-M343

I5235 10835 194 Serbia_IronGates_Mesolithic Padina R1b R-M343

I5240 10805 165 Serbia_IronGates_Mesolithic Padina R1b R-M343

I5237 9500 1010 Serbia_IronGates_Mesolithic Padina R1b R-M343

I4081 9361 99 Romania_IronGates_Mesolithic_published Iron Gates, Ostrovul Corbului R1b R-M343

I4630 9218 111 Latvia_HG Zvejnieki R1b1a1 R-M343>L754>L389>P297

I1734 9159 97 Ukraine_N Vasil'evka R1b R-M343

M96 8825 217 Romania_IronGates_Mesolithic.SG Iron Gates, Schela Cladovei R1b R-M343

M95 8814 151 Romania_IronGates_Mesolithic.SG Iron Gates, Schela Cladovei R1b R-M343

I4916 8763 128 Serbia_IronGates_Mesolithic Hajduka Vodenica R1b R-M343

I5408 8704 155 Romania_IronGates_Mesolithic Iron Gates, Ostrovul Corbului R1b R-M343

I5408 8704 155 Romania_IronGates_Mesolithic.SG Iron Gates, Ostrovul Corbului R1b R-M343

I5411 8600 202 Romania_IronGates_Mesolithic Iron Gates, Schela Cladovei R1b R-M343

I5772 8450 346 Serbia_IronGates_Mesolithic Vlasac R1b R-M343

I4432 7958 41 Latvia_HG Zvejnieki R1b1a1 R-M343>L754>L389>P297

I5232 7901 64 Serbia_IronGates_Mesolithic_o Padina R1b R-M343

I4626 7677 57 Latvia_HG.SG Zvejnieki R1b1a1 R-M343>L754>L389>P297

I4626 7677 57 Latvia_HG Zvejnieki R1b1a1 R-M343>L754>L389>P297

I4439 7646 36 Latvia_HG Zvejnieki R1b1a1 R-M343>L754>L389>P297

I0124 7544 32 Russia_HG_Samara Samara Oblast, Volga River Valley, Sok River, Lebyazhinka R1b1a1 R-M343>L754>L389>P297

I4434 7441 50 Latvia_HG Zvejnieki R1b1a1 R-M343>L754>L389>P297

I4114 7350 47 Ukraine_N Dereivka I R1b R-M343

I5893 7249 48 Ukraine_N_1d.rel.I5881_published Dereivka I R1b R-M343

I3718 7217 43 Ukraine_N Dereivka I R1b R-M343

I5879 7208 40 Ukraine_N_brother.I8590_father.or.son.I3718 Dereivka I R1b R-M343

R6 7202 47 Italy_N_oWHG.SG Grotta Continenza R1b R-M343

CHA002 7127 73 Spain_EN Cueva de Chaves R1b R-M343

Donkalnis7 7110 114 Lithuania_EMN_Narva Donkalnis R1b1a1a R-M343>L754>L389>P297>M73

I0411 7107 66 Spain_EN_father.or.son.I0410 Els Trocs R1b R-M343

I0410 7106 66 Spain_EN Els Trocs R1b R-M343

I4112 7100 289 Ukraine_N_published Dereivka I R1b R-M343

I5890 7092 56 Ukraine_N Dereivka I R1b R-M343

I5881 7077 45 Ukraine_N_published Dereivka I R1b R-M343

I5883 7048 68 Ukraine_N Dereivka I R1b R-M343

I4628 7033 108 Latvia_HG Zvejnieki R1b1a1 R-M343>L754>L389>P297

PG2001 6850 46 Russia_Steppe_Eneolithic Piedmont, Progress 2 R1b1a2 R-M343>L754>L389>V1636

I0122 6788 44 Russia_Khvalynsk_Eneolithic Samara Oblast, Volga River Valley, Khvalynsk II R1b1a2 R-M343>L754>L389>V1636

Kivisaare3 6594 53 Estonia_EMN_Narva Kivisaare R1b1a1
R-M343>L754>L389>P297

I2181 6458 42 Bulgaria_C_oSteppe_published Smyadovo **no call without Lazaridis' R-M269

I2430 6448 41 Bulgaria_C Smyadovo R1b R-M343

ANI153 6434 42 Bulgaria_Varna_C_o2 Varna R1b R-M343


I4436 6109 70 Latvia_MN_o2 Zvejnieki R1b1a1 R-M343>L754>L389>P297

PG2004 6088 60 Russia_Steppe_Eneolithic Piedmont, Progress 2 R1b1a2 R-M343>L754>L389>V1636

I4627 6071 81 Latvia_MN Zvejnieki R1b1a1 R-M343>L754>L389>P297

Tamula3 5666 53 Estonia_MN_CCC_2 Tamula R1b R-M343

I0559 5530 39 Germany_MN_Baalberge Quedlinburg Site IX R1b R-M343

I1593 5527 37 Germany_Blatterhohle_MN Blatterhole Cave R1b R-M343

SA6010 5400 58 Russia_Caucasus_Eneolithic Kaspi steppe, Šarachalsun 6 R1b1a2 R-M343>L754>L389>V1636

ATP3 5397 44 Spain_C.SG El Portalon Cave, Sierra de Atapuerca R1b1a1 R-M343>L754>L389>P297

BOT14 5314 153 Kazakhstan_Botai_Eneolithic Botai R1b1a1a1 R-M343>L754>L389>P297>M73>Y13202>Y13204>M478

JK2804 5198 91 Italy_Sardinia_C_o Carbonia, CI, Cannas di Sotto, t. 12 R1b R-M343

ART038 5175 83 Turkey_Arslantepe_LateC Malatya Province, Arslantepe R1b1a2 R-M343>L754>L389>V1636

I1594 5140 96 Germany_Blatterhohle_MN Blatterhole Cave R1b R-M343

I0429 5074 126 Russia_Samara_EBA_Yamnaya Samara Oblast, Volga River Valley, Sok River, Lopatino I R1b1a1b1b3 R-M343>L754>L389>P297>M269>L23>Z2103>M12149>Z2106

I5270 5058 100 Russia_Afanasievo Elo 1 R1b1a1b1b R-M343>L754>L389>P297>M269>L23>Z2103

I0439 5021 104 Russia_Samara_EBA_Yamnaya Samara Oblast, Volga River Valley, Sok River, Lopatino I R1b1a1b R-M343>L754>L389>P297>M269

I6222 5009 101 Mongolia_Chalcolithic_Afanasievo_1_contam Bayankhongor aimag, Erdenetsogt sum, Shatar chuluu kurgan 2 R1b1a1b1a1 R-M343>L754>L389>P297>M269>L23>L51>P310

I0444 5003 129 Russia_Samara_EBA_Yamnaya Samara Oblast, Volga River Valley, Kutuluk River, Kutuluk R1b1a1b1b3 R-M343>L754>L389>P297>M269>L23>Z2103>M12149>Z2106


Keep in mind that R1b-M269's phylogenetic block has about 96 equivalent SNPs.

What's the big picture of the R1b world before 3000 BC?

I believe Afontova Gora was actually Q, not R1b.

davit
02-10-2021, 02:19 AM
I believe Afontova Gora was actually Q, not R1b.

Yes. AG2 was Q1a. AG3 was a woman who belonged to mtdna R1b.

TigerMW
02-10-2021, 02:19 AM
I believe Afontova Gora was actually Q, not R1b.
R1b is what Reich’s team has in the Y haplogroup column. The data is fresh. Please give us your reference and I will ask them to review.

TigerMW
02-10-2021, 06:03 PM
I believe Afontova Gora was actually Q, not R1b.

Can you cite where you find the call of haplogroup Q. I downloaded Reich's data just now and list the two Anfontova Gora individuals below. AnfontovaGora2 is still listed as a Y haplogroup R1b. It's assessment is PASS (vs. fail).

Sorry the headings don't line up.

Index Version ID Master ID Skeletal code Skeletal element Publication Representative contact GroupID Data source Coverage on autosomal targets SNPs hit on autosomal targets Sex Y haplogroup in ISOGG v15.73 notation (automatically called) mtDNA coverage (merged data) mtDNA haplogroup if ≥2 coverage or published (merged data or consensus if not available) contamLD est contamLD s.e. contamLD warning contamLD s.e. ASSESSMENT

1237 AfontovaGora2.SG AfontovaGora2 AfontovaGora2 (AG-2) bone (long bone) RaghavanNature2013 Willerslev, Eske Russia_AfontovaGora2.SG Shotgun 0.075 86317 M R1b .. .. 0.396 0.044 Very_High_Contamination [0.31,0.482] PASS (literature)

1466 AfontovaGora3_d AfontovaGora3 AfontovaGora3 tooth FuNature2016 Paabo, Svante Russia_AfontovaGora3 3.7M 0.17 265687 F .. .. R1b 0.017 0.025 Model_Misspecified [0,0.066] PASS

rms2
02-10-2021, 06:09 PM
Care to elaborate ? (saves trying to 2nd guess) - thanks

There is a long long history of folks really, very emotionally and earnestly wanting R1b to represent the absolutely Ur-native western Europeans, with all of us descended from the very earliest male inhabitants of the region.

Some of them will seize on anything that could possibly, however tenuously, breathe life back into that desire, like Villabruna, for example.

Some of them are motivated by national and/or ethnic pride, others by Lord knows what.

Over the years many a thread has been hijacked, wrecked and subsequently closed due to this agenda.

And many an overly passionate partisan has been banned, not for his opinions, but for the excessive passion with which they were sometimes expressed.