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genealogist_jewish
02-11-2021, 11:31 AM
One of my cousins has tested his mitochondrial DNA. He carries the mtDNA haplogroup R0a2m. In this connection, I came across a fascinating paper: “Middle eastern genetic legacy in the paternal and maternal gene pools of Chuetas (https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-020-78487-9)”. I learnt that my cousin’s mtDNA haplogroup is present in 21% of Chueta Sefardi Jews. I also learned from the website LeviteDNA.Org, that the mtDNA haplogroup R is rare in Ashkenazim, its frequency less than 2% (R0a2m's).

Me and my cousin, who are both near 100% Ashkenazi Jewish according to DNA testing, share ancestors on his direct maternal line. Having read the facts described above, and thereby learned that R0a2m is very rare in Askenazim but very common in Chueata Sefardi Jews, I have a question.

Does the carrying of R0a2m in my cousin indicate a Sefardi Jewish, or Iberian residing ancestor along his direct maternal line?

Pylsteen
02-11-2021, 11:40 AM
There were Sefardic people who during the time of the inquisitions settled in central and eastern Europe, and assimilated into the local jewish populations, so it is an interesting possibility IMO.

genealogist_jewish
02-11-2021, 11:42 AM
Yes! I agree. I think it indicates Sefardic heritage.

It is also our family legend that we are a bit Sefardi. Thank you for your reply.

genealogist_jewish
02-11-2021, 11:48 AM
There were Sefardic people who during the time of the inquisitions settled in central and eastern Europe, and assimilated into the local jewish populations, so it is an interesting possibility IMO.

Do you have a link to an article/source for the settling and assimilation of Sefardim to local Jewish populations in eastern and central Europe?

SUPREEEEEME
02-11-2021, 12:57 PM
R0a2m is the 20th largest Ashkenazi lineage (out of 196 identified Ashkenazi maternal lines, but only 0.91% of Ashkenazim).

I was always under the impression that it was likely a Judean lineage (much like my own Mt-DNA), and so its presence in both Sephardim and Ashkenazim could have been an indication of being present in an ancestral population, and not necessarily Sephardic>Ashkenazi introgression.

From browsing FTDNA, I have noticed that the Ashkenazi members of this lineage (only kits I have access to) match at HVR1+HVR2 with Israeli Bedouins, Palestinians, Libyan Sephardim, Syrian Sephardim, and Tunisian Sephardim (all of these individuals have a terminal of R0a, likely due to not testing further).

genealogist_jewish
02-11-2021, 01:24 PM
R0a2m is the 20th largest Ashkenazi lineage (out of 196 identified Ashkenazi maternal lines, but only 0.91% of Ashkenazim).

I was always under the impression that it was likely a Judean lineage (much like my own Mt-DNA), and so its presence in both Sephardim and Ashkenazim could have been an indication of being present in an ancestral population, and not necessarily Sephardic>Ashkenazi introgression.

From browsing FTDNA, I have noticed that the Ashkenazi members of this lineage (only kits I have access to) match at HVR1+HVR2 with Israeli Bedouins, Palestinians, Libyan Sephardim, Syrian Sephardim, and Tunisian Sephardim (all of these individuals have a terminal of R0a, likely due to not testing further).

I think that R0a2m, though tracing back to the Near East, originates in Iberia. If this was a Judean lineage then it would be found it significant percentages in the Levant and in other Jewish diaspora groups. Therefore, I am inclined to believe its tiny appearance in Ashkenazim is consequent to Sefardi--> Ashkenazi gene flow.

BTW, where did you get the 0.91% stat?

StillWater
02-11-2021, 02:16 PM
I think that R0a2m, though tracing back to the Near East, originates in Iberia. If this was a Judean lineage then it would be found it significant percentages in the Levant and in other Jewish diaspora groups. Therefore, I am inclined to believe its tiny appearance in Ashkenazim is consequent to Sefardi--> Ashkenazi gene flow.

BTW, where did you get the 0.91% stat?

Not how things work. Different lineages made it into different diasporas. Different lineages survived in different diasporas. As for the rest of the Levant, you'll find there are MTDNA lineages in the Levant with the same MRCA date. If the lineage was concentrated to Judeans, then it makes sense why we haven't found a Levantine non-Jew in it yet and may never.

genealogist_jewish
02-11-2021, 02:26 PM
Are you suggesting that R0a2m originated in the Levant? What evidence is there for this?

StillWater
02-11-2021, 02:42 PM
Are you suggesting that R0a2m originated in the Levant? What evidence is there for this?

Look at the date (1900YBP). Granted, MRCA dates for MTDNA are less trustworthy. MTDNA rarely mutates. Unlikely that Judeans migrated with plain R0a2 and then mutated to R0a2m in Iberia. It looks exactly like a typical Judean lineage. Did it spread through Iberia? I don't know, but highly unlikely it mutated in Iberia.

SUPREEEEEME
02-11-2021, 03:10 PM
I think that R0a2m, though tracing back to the Near East, originates in Iberia. If this was a Judean lineage then it would be found it significant percentages in the Levant and in other Jewish diaspora groups. Therefore, I am inclined to believe its tiny appearance in Ashkenazim is consequent to Sefardi--> Ashkenazi gene flow.

BTW, where did you get the 0.91% stat?

Source for R0a2m being the 20th largest: https://jewishdna.net/Mtdna.html
Source for R0a2m being 0.91%: https://sites.google.com/view/ashkenazi-y-dna-and-mtdna/mtdna-ancestral-lines-of-ashkenazi-jews?authuser=0

I agree with Stillwater's point - R0a2m doesn't have to have been found in significant percentages in the Levant or in other Diaspora groups in order for it to be Judean. Being found in both Ashkenazim and Sephardim, in my opinion, can on its own suggest a Judean origin. Given the TMCRA of 1900 ybp, I'd sooner be inclined to suggest that R0a2m was present in the ancestral population of Ashkenazim and Sephardim.

(I'm not saying Sephardic > Ashkenazi introgression isn't impossible for this lineage)

genealogist_jewish
02-11-2021, 03:20 PM
Look at the date (1900YBP). Granted, MRCA dates for MTDNA are less trustworthy. MTDNA rarely mutates. Unlikely that Judeans migrated with plain R0a2 and then mutated to R0a2m in Iberia. It looks exactly like a typical Judean lineage. Did it spread through Iberia? I don't know, but highly unlikely it mutated in Iberia.

I have no qualifications in genetics, so please forgive me if I am talking nonsense. I am not claiming to be an expert.

Gandini Et al date R0a2m 1400 years old: https://www.nature.com/articles/srep25472

R0a2m is a mutation of R0a2. If it mutated in the Levant, it would be found there or in other Jewish diasporas. See this from the Chueta study:

"all six complete Chueta molecules share an additional mutation (A13858G), whereas one sample has a G15734A private mutation. In all the rest of R0a+60.1 T Chueta samples, we have checked the defining mutation of the R0a2m branch (A4767G). Besides, the two specifc Chueta positions have also been examined, revealing that A13858G was present in all 21 individuals, suggesting a new R0a2m sub-branch in this population..."
43216

StillWater
02-11-2021, 04:13 PM
I have no qualifications in genetics, so please forgive me if I am talking nonsense. I am not claiming to be an expert.

Gandini Et al date R0a2m 1400 years old: https://www.nature.com/articles/srep25472

R0a2m is a mutation of R0a2. If it mutated in the Levant, it would be found there or in other Jewish diasporas. See this from the Chueta study:

"all six complete Chueta molecules share an additional mutation (A13858G), whereas one sample has a G15734A private mutation. In all the rest of R0a+60.1 T Chueta samples, we have checked the defining mutation of the R0a2m branch (A4767G). Besides, the two specifc Chueta positions have also been examined, revealing that A13858G was present in all 21 individuals, suggesting a new R0a2m sub-branch in this population..."
43216

Already addressed this

SUPREEEEEME
02-11-2021, 04:33 PM
I have no qualifications in genetics, so please forgive me if I am talking nonsense. I am not claiming to be an expert.

Gandini Et al date R0a2m 1400 years old: https://www.nature.com/articles/srep25472

R0a2m is a mutation of R0a2. If it mutated in the Levant, it would be found there or in other Jewish diasporas. See this from the Chueta study:

"all six complete Chueta molecules share an additional mutation (A13858G), whereas one sample has a G15734A private mutation. In all the rest of R0a+60.1 T Chueta samples, we have checked the defining mutation of the R0a2m branch (A4767G). Besides, the two specifc Chueta positions have also been examined, revealing that A13858G was present in all 21 individuals, suggesting a new R0a2m sub-branch in this population..."
43216

We are using the date from YFull, which is considered the international standard.

https://yfull.com/mtree/R0a2m/

leorcooper19
02-11-2021, 04:40 PM
I have no qualifications in genetics, so please forgive me if I am talking nonsense. I am not claiming to be an expert.

Gandini Et al date R0a2m 1400 years old: https://www.nature.com/articles/srep25472

R0a2m is a mutation of R0a2. If it mutated in the Levant, it would be found there or in other Jewish diasporas. See this from the Chueta study:

"all six complete Chueta molecules share an additional mutation (A13858G), whereas one sample has a G15734A private mutation. In all the rest of R0a+60.1 T Chueta samples, we have checked the defining mutation of the R0a2m branch (A4767G). Besides, the two specifc Chueta positions have also been examined, revealing that A13858G was present in all 21 individuals, suggesting a new R0a2m sub-branch in this population..."
43216

As others here have said, just because a mtDNA lineage is unique to one or two diaspora groups doesn't mean it "mutated" among them or isn't Judean. Ancient Israelites and their descendants in Judea would have had thousands upon thousands of different uniparental lineages, and the founders of each diasporic community would have only started with a relatively small subset of their overall diversity. Recall what we talked about in FB dms about genetic drift and founder effects.

What this quote from the Chueta paper is actually saying is that all Chuetas are not only R0a2m, but all share a unique mutation which is called A13858G. This means that the Chuetas are really in something like R0a2m1, while the other R0a2m scientific samples are R0a2m*. This shows that the Ashkenazim are definitely not descendant from the Chuetas specifically, but it would be interesting to find out whether or not the other likely Sephardi-descendant folks (Ecuadorian, for example) also have A13858G.

genealogist_jewish
02-11-2021, 05:12 PM
Do Ashkenazim have this mutation?

genealogist_jewish
02-11-2021, 05:51 PM
Are the two theories mutually exclusive? Couldn't it be consequent to gene flow and common Levantine ancestry?

genealogist_jewish
02-12-2021, 08:05 PM
As others here have said, just because a mtDNA lineage is unique to one or two diaspora groups doesn't mean it "mutated" among them or isn't Judean. Ancient Israelites and their descendants in Judea would have had thousands upon thousands of different uniparental lineages, and the founders of each diasporic community would have only started with a relatively small subset of their overall diversity. Recall what we talked about in FB dms about genetic drift and founder effects.

What this quote from the Chueta paper is actually saying is that all Chuetas are not only R0a2m, but all share a unique mutation which is called A13858G. This means that the Chuetas are really in something like R0a2m1, while the other R0a2m scientific samples are R0a2m*. This shows that the Ashkenazim are definitely not descendant from the Chuetas specifically, but it would be interesting to find out whether or not the other likely Sephardi-descendant folks (Ecuadorian, for example) also have A13858G.

Do we have any data for non Chueta Sefardis with R0a2m?

curiousDNAguy12
02-13-2021, 07:17 AM
I also have R0a2 as my mtdna and am Jewish. My mom was shocked because her family comes from small villages in Northeastern Poland/Lithuania area. Anyway, she has a lot of North African Sephardic and Portuguese matches on my heritage.

I've been doing reading on this too, and saw what a few jews who have gotten mtdna tests have said online. A jewish guy on a quora reply said that he got his mtdna tested, and his r0a2m matched people in spain and sicily. Another jewish r0a2m guy apparently matches a woman from South America who traces back to Extremadura in the 1600s.

My ultimate conclusion now is that I'm going to get an mtdna test to see for myself, since we can only speculate, and can't really know unless we test. I just know that it's from the Arabian Peninsula and that it's not at all what I thought I would have haha.

To be fair, R0a exists at like 2% i Hungary, Romania, Macedonia, and like 1% in Southern Italy, Southern Portugal etc. I'll have to search for the source, but I've been researching this a while.

BTW, I think a lot of Ashkenazi Jews have family stories of Sephardi heritage. I think it's a lot more massive than people realize and not a lot of research has been done not the topic, especially on all of this in galicia/austria hungary for example.

genealogist_jewish
02-13-2021, 01:44 PM
I also have R0a2 as my mtdna and am Jewish. My mom was shocked because her family comes from small villages in Northeastern Poland/Lithuania area. Anyway, she has a lot of North African Sephardic and Portuguese matches on my heritage.

I've been doing reading on this too, and saw what a few jews who have gotten mtdna tests have said online. A jewish guy on a quora reply said that he got his mtdna tested, and his r0a2m matched people in spain and sicily. Another jewish r0a2m guy apparently matches a woman from South America who traces back to Extremadura in the 1600s.

My ultimate conclusion now is that I'm going to get an mtdna test to see for myself, since we can only speculate, and can't really know unless we test. I just know that it's from the Arabian Peninsula and that it's not at all what I thought I would have haha.

To be fair, R0a exists at like 2% i Hungary, Romania, Macedonia, and like 1% in Southern Italy, Southern Portugal etc. I'll have to search for the source, but I've been researching this a while.

BTW, I think a lot of Ashkenazi Jews have family stories of Sephardi heritage. I think it's a lot more massive than people realize and not a lot of research has been done not the topic, especially on all of this in galicia/austria hungary for example.

Thanks for this.

To see why R0a2m is in Ashknenazim we need to see if it is found Sefardi populations (not Chuetas). Then, we can see if the Ashkenazim share the specific genetic markers and mutations that the R0a2m Sefardim have and see they match. If yes, it is likely from late gene flow.

The matches are likely from a common Iberian residing Jewish ancestor around 100 years ago. My relative also has many Sefardi matches.

It's frustrating that Sefardi mtDNA is understudied. More data would really help with this issue.

Did you manage to find anything Sefardi with your paper trail?

Thanks again.

genealogist_jewish
02-24-2021, 08:49 AM
apparently matches a woman from South America who traces back to Extremadura in the 1600s.

My cousin is an exact match with this woman.

genealogist_jewish
02-24-2021, 08:51 AM
Can you send the Quora link please?

curiousDNAguy12
04-08-2021, 10:08 PM
Can you send the Quora link please?

I can't find it, but I also submitted my MTDNA test recently. I'll let you know who I match with.

Targum
04-08-2021, 10:33 PM
I have posted on this on this site a couple of years ago; but I, whose family has been Ashkenazi for a few hundred years, get numerous matches with Mexicans, Cubans and Puerto Ricans, all of whom do not think or know they are Jewish. So clearly, Sefaradi dna was being admixed both in the populations who would coalesce as Polish Ashkenazim, and also into the general Latino population.

passenger
04-08-2021, 11:32 PM
This may be irrelevant to the mtDNA issue raised by the OP, but since the question of Sephardim in Eastern Europe has been raised, here are a few links:

https://yivoencyclopedia.org/article.aspx/Sephardim
https://www.avotaynu.com/sephardim.htm
https://esefarad.com/?p=84555

The third article itself has some interesting references toward the bottom. The author, Kevin Alan Brook, is someone who's worked quite a bit with the subject, as we've discussed elsewhere on the forum.

There are definitely links there, despite the warranted skepticism of some, like Beider (see: https://forward.com/opinion/387971/many-sephardic-jews-arent-actually-sephardic/) who warn of false origin stories and the romanticized "allure of the Sephardic" (see John M. Efron (https://press.princeton.edu/books/hardcover/9780691167749/german-jewry-and-the-allure-of-the-sephardic)).

Also, while most references (logically) focus on Eastern Sephardic movement from Turkey and the Balkans into traditionally Ashkenazi areas, I think that Western Sephardim are an important and somewhat overlooked piece of the puzzle in terms of shared segments (and perhaps uniparentals) that link Latin Americans to (North African and Eastern) Sephardim to Ashkenazim.

genealogist_jewish
06-08-2021, 08:52 PM
Thank you very much. Ann article by Kevin Alan Brook is where I got the thought that an R0a2m is Sephardi:

"A cluster of matches in the Middle Eastern maternal (mtDNA) haplogroup R0a2m is suggestive that their most recent common ancestor was probably a Sephardic Jewish woman."

My cousin is in this cluster.