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Spinnerz
02-11-2021, 02:21 PM
Hello, I am from Scotland and my haplogroup is J FGC4422, which is under FGC12 (I heard normally Scottish J1s are under YSC76?)

I have quite a few close matches, some share my surname and some do not, but all of our surnames are of Scottish origin.

Does anyone have an idea of how and when it came to Scotland?
My STR values are -

DYS393=12, DYS390=23, DYS19**=14, DYS391=10, DYS385=13-18, DYS426=11, DYS388=17, DYS439=11, DYS389I=13, DYS392=11, DYS389II***=29, DYS458=18, DYS459=8-9, DYS455=11, DYS454=11, DYS447=26, DYS437=23, DYS448=20, DYS449=24, DYS464=12-13-16-17, DYS460=11, Y-GATA-H4=10, YCAII=20-22, DYS456=13, DYS607=15, DYS576=19, DYS570=20, CDY=33-33, DYS442=12, DYS438=10

Kelmendasi
02-11-2021, 04:15 PM
J1-FGC4422 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y13481/) (or Y13481) is a downstream of Y10887 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y10887/) which can be considered a quintessentially Arab or Proto-Arabic cluster with a TMRCA of ~3,100 ybp, roughly coinciding with the first recorded mention of the Arabs in the Assyrian Kurkh Monoliths which date back to the mid-ninth century BCE (c. 852-879 BCE). On top of this, Y10887 is most diverse and prevalent across the Arab world. This is in turn true for FGC4422 which is also spread across Arabic-speaking nations and has a TMRCA of ~2,900 ybp, so around the later periods of the ninth century BCE.

I see on Yfull that there is a Scottish sample from the area of Renfrewshire, located on the Central Lowlands of Scotland. He is FGC4422>FT264818 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-FT264818/) which is an earlier offshoot of FGC4422, and so the TMRCA is also ~2,900 ybp. So far he has no matches on Yfull, so it is hard to say how this sample made its way to the British Isles or when.

However, it is interesting to note that there was a presence of Arabs and related groups in Britain during the period of Roman rule, especially in service with or to the Roman army. For example, the Roman fort of Arbeia (c. 160 CE) located near South Shields on the northwestern coast of England, had a part of its garrison made up of squadrons from the Roman province of Mesopotamia. Hence the name that roughly translates to "fort of the Arab troops".

RCO
02-11-2021, 05:19 PM
In FTDNA's bigy blocktree we can observe J-FT264818 FT263648 FT264634 more 23 Private Variants - Average, one participant from Scotland and another - Unknow Origin, so you need your Big Y to compare with the other Scottish. The distance to the Unknown is big, more or les 2400 years considering YFull's J-FGC47805 TMRCA 2400 ybpinfo id:YF0656

https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-FT264818/

Spinnerz
02-11-2021, 06:07 PM
I think the person on unknown origin is a descendent of the Ghamid tribe. We were grouped together in a project and he is FT264818+. I myself have only done an SNP test so far and will need to take Big Y in the future

Spinnerz
02-11-2021, 06:19 PM
Interesting about this Arab fortress. One of my matches can trace his lineage back to Northumberland which is very close. The Graham J1 family, another Scottish surname, are also believed to be descended from a Roman man, they are under YSC76

Kelmendasi
02-11-2021, 08:04 PM
I think the person on unknown origin is a descendent of the Ghamid tribe. We were grouped together in a project and he is FT264818+. I myself have only done an SNP test so far and will need to take Big Y in the future
If you are grouped together with the Arab sample belonging to the Ghamid tribe, then you could be FGC4422>FT264818>FGC47805 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-FGC47805/). However, it is likely that you were grouped together only at the FT264818 level, and should cluster with the Scottish sample from Renfrewshire.

The Ghamid themselves are one of the tribes of the Hejaz (centred in Al-Bahah) and belong to the larger Azd tribal group. The Azd or Al-Azd initially inhabited the northwest of the Arabian Peninsula, however upon the collapse and fall of the Nabatean Kingdom many migrated further south even into Himyarite territory in present-day Yemen. The Ghamid are closest to the Zahran who also settled in Al-Bahah due to water shortages further north, the traditional dialects of these two tribes is considered to be among the closest to Classical Arabic.

Based on this, it is tempting to place the origin of J1-FT264818 in the northwestern regions of the Arabian Peninsula, roughly corresponding to the Nabatean Kingdom, however the small sample size makes it hard to say anything with much certainty.

MacUalraig
02-11-2021, 08:37 PM
Hello, I am from Scotland and my haplogroup is J FGC4422, which is under FGC12 (I heard normally Scottish J1s are under YSC76?)

I have quite a few close matches, some share my surname and some do not, but all of our surnames are of Scottish origin.

Does anyone have an idea of how and when it came to Scotland?
My STR values are -

DYS393=12, DYS390=23, DYS19**=14, DYS391=10, DYS385=13-18, DYS426=11, DYS388=17, DYS439=11, DYS389I=13, DYS392=11, DYS389II***=29, DYS458=18, DYS459=8-9, DYS455=11, DYS454=11, DYS447=26, DYS437=23, DYS448=20, DYS449=24, DYS464=12-13-16-17, DYS460=11, Y-GATA-H4=10, YCAII=20-22, DYS456=13, DYS607=15, DYS576=19, DYS570=20, CDY=33-33, DYS442=12, DYS438=10

Can you say if its Gaelic/Norman etc in origin?

Spinnerz
02-12-2021, 03:34 PM
Can you say if its Gaelic/Norman etc in origin?

FGC4422 is of Arabic origin, this is what is confusing me because I'm unsure how it got here
https://phylogeographer.com/mygrations/?hg=J1&clade=J-Y13481

Ruderico
02-12-2021, 03:38 PM
FGC4422 is of Arabic origin, this is what is confusing me because I'm unsure how it got here
https://phylogeographer.com/mygrations/?hg=J1&clade=J-Y13481

As others have said FGC4422 is indeed of proto-Arabic (well, probably) but it is also 2900 years old, which gives plenty of time for the Scottish subclade, J-FT264818, to migrate there during, for example, the Roman era. Its closest patrilineal relatives outside of Scotland might be extremely rare, or maybe the line died out completely considering how much Arabs test their yDNA.

Shamash
02-12-2021, 04:09 PM
If you are grouped together with the Arab sample belonging to the Ghamid tribe, then you could be FGC4422>FT264818>FGC47805 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-FGC47805/). However, it is likely that you were grouped together only at the FT264818 level, and should cluster with the Scottish sample from Renfrewshire.

The Ghamid themselves are one of the tribes of the Hejaz (centred in Al-Bahah) and belong to the larger Azd tribal group. The Azd or Al-Azd initially inhabited the northwest of the Arabian Peninsula, however upon the collapse and fall of the Nabatean Kingdom many migrated further south even into Himyarite territory in present-day Yemen. The Ghamid are closest to the Zahran who also settled in Al-Bahah due to water shortages further north, the traditional dialects of these two tribes is considered to be among the closest to Classical Arabic.

Based on this, it is tempting to place the origin of J1-FT264818 in the northwestern regions of the Arabian Peninsula, roughly corresponding to the Nabatean Kingdom, however the small sample size makes it hard to say anything with much certainty.

We know that Nabataean archers were well sought after in the Roman army. 1000 archers from Roman Arabia were stationed during the 2nd century CE for instance in Straubing in Germany in order to protect the Limes Germanicus (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limes_Germanicus). Looks like the Romans did the same at the Limes Britannicus (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limes_Britannicus). In 106 CE the Nabataean Kingdom became the Roman province Arabia Petraea.

Agamemnon
02-12-2021, 06:12 PM
As others have said FGC4422 is indeed of proto-Arabic (well, probably) but it is also 2900 years old, which gives plenty of time for the Scottish subclade, J-FT264818, to migrate there during, for example, the Roman era. Its closest patrilineal relatives outside of Scotland might be extremely rare, or maybe the line died out completely considering how much Arabs test their yDNA.

IMO the Proto-Arabic label is best reserved for FGC1723 (Y4349 on YFull) which is upstream. As Kelmendasi said though the MRCA estimates roughly correspond with the first mention of the Arabs at the battle of Qarqar on the Kurkh Monolith:

https://i.imgur.com/Bh8hWLp.jpg

The above translates as "1000 camels of Gindibu of Arabia", the name "Gindibu" is possibly an early Arabic form of جنـدب jundub meaning "grasshopper" or "locust" (early Arabs, and Semites in general, tended to give animal names to their children with the hopes that they would assimilate the qualities associated to those animals).

As you said though, there's plenty of time for this branch to have made its way to Britain, most likely during the Roman period, in this sense it is somewhat similar to the Graham-Jordan cluster under YSC76.

Kelmendasi
02-12-2021, 09:55 PM
The presence of J1 clusters in the British Isles interests me a lot. My closest matches I believe are from a family of English origin (from Surrey in the southeast according to some sites) however a branch settled in Ireland during the seventeenth century, initially acquiring estates around the counties of Wicklow and Tipperary. Though from my research one of the members belonging to the Irish branch came from around the county of Cavan, so I am not too sure if they are from the same family. A branch also settled in Scotland, around Midlothian in the Central Lowlands since at least the eighteenth century.

Although they are my closest matches, they are still extremely distant. They belong to J1-BY32817>BY32809 which split off from my cluster (which so far is just defined as BY32817 or Y179831 on Yfull) ~4,600 ybp, so during the Early Bronze Age, most certainly around the Levant.

MacUalraig
02-13-2021, 02:54 PM
FGC4422 is of Arabic origin, this is what is confusing me because I'm unsure how it got here
https://phylogeographer.com/mygrations/?hg=J1&clade=J-Y13481

I meant your surname.

Spinnerz
02-13-2021, 06:53 PM
My surname, Crawford, is of Norman origin- 'The name Crawford is thought to be of Norman origin and is thought to have taken their name from the barony in Lanarkshire' http://venus.fandm.edu/~fcrawfor/crawf.html
but there are also five other surnames found among my matches, all of these surnames can have origins in Scotland

standbythree
02-24-2021, 07:38 PM
My surname, Crawford, is of Norman origin- 'The name Crawford is thought to be of Norman origin and is thought to have taken their name from the barony in Lanarkshire' http://venus.fandm.edu/~fcrawfor/crawf.html
but there are also five other surnames found among my matches, all of these surnames can have origins in Scotland

Hello Spinnerz, I'm the "sample from Renfrewshire" mentioned earlier in the thread, and my surname is also Crawford. I'm FGC4415->FT264818. Just a few days ago a new FT264818 match showed up for me on FTDNA, also a Crawford from Scotland, bringing the total (including myself) to two. Seems likely that you would be number three, and that we are some variety of cousin :)

Strongly recommend the Big Y test if you're interested in exploring this further... also the Crawford project on FTDNA is a great resource.

Spinnerz
02-25-2021, 01:12 PM
Hello Spinnerz, I'm the "sample from Renfrewshire" mentioned earlier in the thread, and my surname is also Crawford. I'm FGC4415->FT264818. Just a few days ago a new FT264818 match showed up for me on FTDNA, also a Crawford from Scotland, bringing the total (including myself) to two. Seems likely that you would be number three, and that we are some variety of cousin :)

Strongly recommend the Big Y test if you're interested in exploring this further... also the Crawford project on FTDNA is a great resource.

Hi there, I see since our match got his Big Y results the SNP has changed from FT264818 to its downstream FT368635. This separates us from the Arab al-Ghamid sample which is FT264818 -> FGC47805, meaning our ancestors diverged and could have came to Europe over 2000 years ago, before Roman Britain (unless a future Arab sample tests positive for our branch). This is very interesting! :)

standbythree
02-25-2021, 02:36 PM
Hi there, I see since our match got his Big Y results the SNP has changed from FT264818 to its downstream FT368635. This separates us from the Arab al-Ghamid sample which is FT264818 -> FGC47805, meaning our ancestors diverged and could have came to Europe over 2000 years ago, before Roman Britain (unless a future Arab sample tests positive for our branch). This is very interesting! :)

Wow, yes I see that now! This has literally been updated since I posted yesterday. Very interesting indeed... would obviously benefit from more Big Y samples.

Spinnerz
02-25-2021, 03:46 PM
Wow, yes I see that now! This has literally been updated since I posted yesterday. Very interesting indeed... would obviously benefit from more Big Y samples.

Yes for sure. I'm planning to get the Big Y soon, I will most likely wait until April. Hopefully there will be more FT264818+ testers around the world to give us a better idea of how it came all the way to Scotland.

Also, I've joined the FTDNA project FGC42781, and the project admin there has shown interest in your Big Y sample, if you are interested in joining that would be great :) (we are not FGC42781+, but they will group us separately)

Paul333
02-25-2021, 03:55 PM
J1-FGC4422 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y13481/) (or Y13481) is a downstream of Y10887 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y10887/) which can be considered a quintessentially Arab or Proto-Arabic cluster with a TMRCA of ~3,100 ybp, roughly coinciding with the first recorded mention of the Arabs in the Assyrian Kurkh Monoliths which date back to the mid-ninth century BCE (c. 852-879 BCE). On top of this, Y10887 is most diverse and prevalent across the Arab world. This is in turn true for FGC4422 which is also spread across Arabic-speaking nations and has a TMRCA of ~2,900 ybp, so around the later periods of the ninth century BCE.

I see on Yfull that there is a Scottish sample from the area of Renfrewshire, located on the Central Lowlands of Scotland. He is FGC4422>FT264818 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-FT264818/) which is an earlier offshoot of FGC4422, and so the TMRCA is also ~2,900 ybp. So far he has no matches on Yfull, so it is hard to say how this sample made its way to the British Isles or when.

However, it is interesting to note that there was a presence of Arabs and related groups in Britain during the period of Roman rule, especially in service with or to the Roman army. For example, the Roman fort of Arbeia (c. 160 CE) located near South Shields on the northwestern coast of England, had a part of its garrison made up of squadrons from the Roman province of Mesopotamia. Hence the name that roughly translates to "fort of the Arab troops".

Slight correction. The Roman fort of 'Arbeia' is actually located in South Shields, which is on the 'South estuary of the river Tyne', in North Eastern, England, just across the river in Northumberland from the eastern end of Hadrians Wall.

Kelmendasi
02-26-2021, 09:17 PM
Slight correction. The Roman fort of 'Arbeia' is actually located in South Shields, which is on the 'South estuary of the river Tyne', in North Eastern, England, just across the river in Northumberland from the eastern end of Hadrians Wall.
Ah yes my bad, I just realized that I had mistakenly typed that South Shields is located on the north-western coast.