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parasar
03-11-2014, 03:37 AM
http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2014/03/05/1316513111.full.pdf

Dienekes has an interesting read on this:

That would of course also imply that people from Central Asia and Siberia (where the Scythians may have come from) were originally lighter than Europeans which does find support from an older study on southern Siberian remains. Ironically, if that is the case, it would mean that the famous light-pigmented mummies of different parts of Inner Asia may not be long-lost European descendants -- as it has sometimes been presumed on the basis of modern-day clines of pigmentation. As usual, ancient DNA continues to surprise.

http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2014/03/dark-pigmentation-of-eneolithic-and.html

Sein
03-11-2014, 04:06 AM
Dienekes' thoughts here are very interesting.

It's pretty awesome that ancient DNA almost always upsets our long held assumptions. Most of these finds have consistently been intellectual roller-coaster rides!

Still though, one wishes they could've have acquired autosomal DNA, to truly establish population continuity. If not autosomal data, Y-DNA would have been the next best thing. It seems clear now that across the globe, mtDNA shows much greater continuity than autosomal or Y-DNA.

Generalissimo
03-11-2014, 07:48 AM
Most of these samples are either from the Balkans or close. It's interesting that the two individuals from further east, at Novozvanovka, have markers for blue eyes.

alan
03-11-2014, 08:09 AM
28 Yamnaya, 2 Usatovo, 25 Catacomb were included. Geography ranged from Bulgaria to the Volga.

Generalissimo
03-11-2014, 10:03 AM
Table of mtDNA hgs from the study (Kurgan Ukraine).

http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p217/dpwes/Ancient_mtDNA_table.png~original

soulblighter
03-11-2014, 10:36 AM
Table of mtDNA hgs from the study (Kurgan Ukraine).


Do you know if they have fastas for the mtDNA? I am especially interested in mtDNA C.
All I saw in the supplementary info was HVR1.

Generalissimo
03-11-2014, 10:59 AM
Do you know if they have fastas for the mtDNA? I am especially interested in mtDNA C. All I saw in the supplementary info was HVR1.

Yeah, it's low res stuff. But there's not a single mtDNA C in these results, surprisingly.

soulblighter
03-11-2014, 12:18 PM
Yeah, it's low res stuff. But there's not a single mtDNA C in these results, surprisingly.

Doesn't the table say 21% mtDNA C in HGE? (i understand that is not from this Kurgan study...but I was wondering if you know where to find the sequences for HGE)


Most of these samples are either from the Balkans or close. It's interesting that the two individuals from further east, at Novozvanovka, have markers for blue eyes.

The picture so far seems to indicate that blue eyes evolved somewhere in Siberia.

Generalissimo
03-11-2014, 12:59 PM
Doesn't the table say 21% mtDNA C in HGE? (i understand that is not from this Kurgan study...but I was wondering if you know where to find the sequences for HGE)

Maybe in these papers?

http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0087612

http://www.plosgenetics.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pgen.1003296


The picture so far seems to indicate that blue eyes evolved somewhere in Siberia.

The Southern Urals and West Siberia prior to the expansion of the Uralics into Europe need to be looked at IMO.

Tomasso29
03-11-2014, 05:15 PM
Copper/Bronze Age ancient DNA from 63 samples from the Pontic Caspian steppe (pigmentation DNA and mtDNA only)...

Direct evidence for positive selection of skin, hair, and eye pigmentation in Europeans during the last 5,000 years

Abstract:

Pigmentation is a polygenic trait encompassing some of the most visible phenotypic variation observed in humans. Here we present direct estimates of selection acting on functional alleles in three key genes known to be involved in human pigmentation pathways—HERC2, SLC45A2, and TYR—using allele frequency estimates from Eneolithic, Bronze Age, and modern Eastern European samples and forward simulations. Neutrality was overwhelmingly rejected for all alleles studied, with point estimates of selection ranging from around 2–10% per generation. Our results provide direct evidence that strong selection favoring lighter skin, hair, and eye pigmentation has been operating in European populations over the last 5,000 y.

http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2014/03/05/1316513111

That's a very interesting study, I wonder what this means for the lighter skinned samples that were found out further east? This may very well prove that the lighter samples found across Central Asia and Siberia are not of European origin as some people had predicted in the past.

Jean M
03-11-2014, 05:32 PM
That's a very interesting study..

No doubt why it has its own thread. http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?2299-quot-Dark-pigmentation-of-Eneolithic-and-Bronze-Age-kurgan-groups-from-eastern-Europe-quot

Tomasso29
03-11-2014, 05:34 PM
No doubt why it has its own thread. http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?2299-quot-Dark-pigmentation-of-Eneolithic-and-Bronze-Age-kurgan-groups-from-eastern-Europe-quot

Thanks, I was just looking for that. I'll head over there.

Tomasso29
03-11-2014, 05:41 PM
I'm in agreement with what Dienekes thinks. Granted we should always be careful mixing DNA with actual written history.

The picture is never clear but I'm not surprised if the light samples in Asia are not European in origin. Also if I'm not mistaken, wasn't it not too long ago that they found an ancient darker skinned sample in Europe?

http://www.cbc.ca/news/technology/europeans-had-dark-skin-blue-eyes-7-000-years-ago-1.2512465

vettor
03-11-2014, 06:19 PM
The picture so far seems to indicate that blue eyes evolved somewhere in Siberia.

why would you say that, ?
All studies since 2008 have indicated that blue eyes formed around the black sea area between 6000 to 10000 years ago. Blue eyes have the GG marker

alan
03-11-2014, 06:30 PM
There is evidence for blue eyes amoung western European hunter-gatherers. Maybe it did evolve twice. Its long been noted that west European eyes tend to be blue and eastern grey-blue.


Doesn't the table say 21% mtDNA C in HGE? (i understand that is not from this Kurgan study...but I was wondering if you know where to find the sequences for HGE)



The picture so far seems to indicate that blue eyes evolved somewhere in Siberia.

newtoboard
03-11-2014, 06:30 PM
That's a very interesting study, I wonder what this means for the lighter skinned samples that were found out further east? This may very well prove that the lighter samples found across Central Asia and Siberia are not of European origin as some people had predicted in the past.

So the Tocharians and Scythians just popped up in Central Asia of nowhere. It is quite well accepted that these light pigmented individuals ultimatley had their roots in the Repin and Poltavka cultures of the Don-Ural steppes.

This darker pigmentation west of the Urals is probably the result of the Catacomb culture and Usatovo cultures. Usatovo was in the Balkans. And Catacomb was a post Yamnaya culture which had discontinuity with Yamnaya probably caused by geneflow from the East Balkans and had never been shown to be related to the IE speakers who migrated to Asia. This dark pigmentation west of the Urals was probably a shortlived thing anyways. Because the Catacomb culture ended quite quickly as a result of Timber Grave which was likely formed from a mixture of Abashevo and Andronovo elements (which were both light pigmented).

alan
03-11-2014, 06:37 PM
I havent read the report in detail but I thought there were 28 Yamnaya people tested.


So the Tocharians and Scythians just popped up in Central Asia of nowhere. It is quite well accepted that these light pigmented individuals ultimatley had their roots in the Repin and Poltavka cultures of the Don-Ural steppes.

This darker pigmentation west of the Urals is probably the result of the Catacomb culture and Usatovo cultures. Usatovo was in the Balkans. And Catacomb was a post Yamnaya culture which had discontinuity with Yamnaya probably caused by geneflow from the East Balkans and had never been shown to be related to the IE speakers who migrated to Asia. This dark pigmentation west of the Urals was probably a shortlived thing anyways. Because the Catacomb culture ended quite quickly as a result of Timber Grave which was likely formed from a mixture of Abashevo and Andronovo elements (which were both light pigmented).

Tomasso29
03-11-2014, 06:47 PM
So the Tocharians and Scythians just popped up in Central Asia of nowhere. It is quite well accepted that these light pigmented individuals ultimatley had their roots in the Repin and Poltavka cultures of the Don-Ural steppes.

This darker pigmentation west of the Urals is probably the result of the Catacomb culture and Usatovo cultures. Usatovo was in the Balkans. And Catacomb was a post Yamnaya culture which had discontinuity with Yamnaya probably caused by geneflow from the East Balkans and had never been shown to be related to the IE speakers who migrated to Asia. This dark pigmentation west of the Urals was probably a shortlived thing anyways. Because the Catacomb culture ended quite quickly as a result of Timber Grave which was likely formed from a mixture of Abashevo and Andronovo elements (which were both light pigmented).

There's no strong evidence for the the Scythians or Tocharians originating in Eastern Europe. Mind you I said that one should be careful mixing ancient written history (And specially languages), with actual DNA studies. These are two different subjects that should not be mixed together.

Could these lighter skinned samples in Asia be from Europe? Maybe, but there's no evidence for that (I speculate that they're not). What we do know is the existence of darker skinned people in Eastern Europe 5000 years ago. What does that mean? That's up to personal opinions for now.

Jean M
03-11-2014, 07:32 PM
I have created a new table for predictions of ancient pigmentation phenotype from DNA on my Autosomal page http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/autosomaladna.shtml

Here is a screen shot.

1608

As expected by experts in this field, paler skin appears to arrive in Europe with early farmers. It was more of an asset to farming folk, as they obtained less vitamin D from fish, and so needed to generate more from sunlight on the skin. The earliest sample with paler skin is from the LBK.

The Yamnaya were the end result of a mixture of hunter-gatherers and farmers. So we would expect to find the alleles among them for paler colouring. And so we do. The point of this study is to show that those alleles continued to be subject to selective pressure in northern latitudes i.e. they have increased in the population.

Jean M
03-11-2014, 07:33 PM
There's no strong evidence for the the Scythians or Tocharians originating in Eastern Europe.

Of course there is. These cultures are descended from Yamnaya. They are later.

newtoboard
03-11-2014, 07:48 PM
There's no strong evidence for the the Scythians or Tocharians originating in Eastern Europe. Mind you I said that one should be careful mixing ancient written history (And specially languages), with actual DNA studies. These are two different subjects that should not be mixed together.

Could these lighter skinned samples in Asia be from Europe? Maybe, but there's no evidence for that (I speculate that they're not). What we do know is the existence of darker skinned people in Eastern Europe 5000 years ago. What does that mean? That's up to personal opinions for now.

There is plenty of strong evidence. And none of it has to do with written history. Seriously do you think the people who have spent their lives studying the archeological cultures of the steppe and Central Asia are all wrong about this? There is a good amount of continuity between Scythians and Bronze Age European and even Scythians and Mesolithic Europeans for that matter.

(Dnieper-Donets/Samara->Sredny Stog->Yamnaya->Poltavka->Andronovo->Scythians).

What you are doing is speculating. What others have suggested is based on archeology and Y-DNA. Because the origin of Scythians in Andronovo and the origin of Andronovo in European steppe cultures isn't something anybody can deny.

And the connections between Tocharians and the steppe is well documented with the various connections between Repin/Yamnaya and Afanasevo.

On the other hand suggesting that Scythians and Tocharians popped up out of nowhere in Asia shouldn't be considered. And the implications of that (that IE languages originated in a zone between the Atlantic Ocean and Gansu shouldn't be considered either). And there is zero evidence for any IE homeland in West Asia so please don't go down on that route. Unless you would like to explain why all Asian IE languages can be traced back to Central Asia or the Balkans (and why the Balkan group or Iranian group of languages are more diverse in the Balkans and Central Asia respectively) or why West Asian IE Speakers couldn't get to Armenia or Iran until 1000 or 600 BC or whatever or so but somehow managed to reach Western Europe before that?

newtoboard
03-11-2014, 07:52 PM
I have created a new table for predictions of ancient pigmentation phenotype from DNA on my Autosomal page http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/autosomaladna.shtml , Here is a screen shot.

1608

As expected by experts in this field, paler skin appears to arrive in Europe with early farmers. It was more of an asset to farming folk, as they obtained less vitamin D from fish, and so needed to generate more from sunlight on the skin. The earliest sample with paler skin is from the LBK.

The Yamnaya were the end result of a mixture of hunter-gatherers and farmers. So we would expect to find the alleles among them for paler colouring. And so we do. The point of this study is to show that those alleles continued to be subject to selective pressure i.e. they have increased in the population.

The selective pressure thing is interesting and I think people picked up on this before with regards to Asian IE speakers. Now we know it occurred in Europe too. The main observation was that light eyes didn't seem to be all that rare in the various "Andronovoid" cultures of South and West Siberia despite likely admixture with people with significant East Eurasian ancestry. Small sample size but I think "Andronovoid" cultures had a greater frequency of light eyes than Andronovo itself arguing selection was a major factor.

Tomasso29
03-11-2014, 08:09 PM
Of course there is. These cultures are descended from Yamnaya. They are later.

There's also evidence which shows that different ancient groups that lived in the Near East shared a similar culture despite their ethnic differences. The point is just because they were culturally similar, it does not make these groups related in ethnicity or identity. People need to separate these different time periods.


There is plenty of strong evidence. And none of it has to do with written history. Seriously do you think the people who have spent their lives studying the archeological cultures of the steppe and Central Asia are all wrong about this? There is a good amount of continuity between Scythians and Bronze Age European and even Scythians and Mesolithic Europeans for that matter.

(Dnieper-Donets/Samara->Sredny Stog->Yamnaya->Poltavka->Andronovo->Scythians).

What you are doing is speculating. What others have suggested is based on archeology and Y-DNA. Because the origin of Scythians in Andronovo and the origin of Andronovo in European steppe cultures isn't something anybody can deny.

And the connections between Tocharians and the steppe is well documented with the various connections between Repin/Yamnaya and Afanasevo.

On the other hand suggesting that Scythians and Tocharians popped up out of nowhere in Asia shouldn't be considered. And the implications of that (that IE languages originated in a zone between the Atlantic Ocean and Gansu shouldn't be considered either). And there is zero evidence for any IE homeland in West Asia so please don't go down on that route. Unless you would like to explain why all Asian IE languages can be traced back to Central Asia or the Balkans (and why the Balkan group or Iranian group of languages are more diverse in the Balkans and Central Asia respectively) or why West Asian IE Speakers couldn't get to Armenia or Iran until 1000 or 600 BC or whatever or so but somehow managed to reach Western Europe before that?

Archaeology <> Languages <> DNA.

There's not enough evidence to suggest that the Scythians or Tocharians came from Eastern Europe. Also it's not out of the question that their identities were created in Asia, not Europe (At least that's what archaeology + written history suggests).

Jean M
03-11-2014, 08:23 PM
The selective pressure thing is interesting and I think people picked up on this before with regards to Asian IE speakers.

As I recall Razib Khan had a post on it, but I'm not sure if I can find the one I'm thinking of. Could it be this one: Pigmentation, Phylogeny, History, and Adaptation: http://www.unz.com/gnxp/pigmentation-phylogeny-history-and-adaptation/

Or this one: Selection Happens; But Where, When, and Why?: http://www.unz.com/gnxp/big-sweeps-happen/

Jean M
03-11-2014, 08:34 PM
There's not enough evidence to suggest that the Scythians or Tocharians came from Eastern Europe.

There is plenty of it: genetic, cultural and linguistic - as long as we understand that this means the distant ancestors of Scythians and Tocharians.


Also it's not out of the question that their identities were created in Asia

There I agree entirely. In fact I'd say it is a point that needs emphasizing. The Andronovo culture developed in Asia. It appears to have drawn not only on the obvious cultural antecedent on the European steppe, but on the BMAC, both culturally and in borrowed vocabulary for the adopted cultural elements. The ancestors of the Scythians can be traced through various cultures around the Altai, starting with Andronovo and ending in cultures that we can identify clearly as Scythian. By that time these roving nomads had spread so far east that they were mixing with East Asians.

Tomasso29
03-11-2014, 08:40 PM
There is plenty of it: genetic, cultural and linguistic - as long as we understand that this means the distant ancestors of Scythians and Tocharians.

Depends what distant ancestor mean and to what degree. In a sense, anyone can claim distant ancestry to plenty of groups out there. DNA travels very easily in that respect.

Generalissimo
03-11-2014, 09:15 PM
I'm in agreement with what Dienekes thinks. Granted we should always be careful mixing DNA with actual written history.

The picture is never clear but I'm not surprised if the light samples in Asia are not European in origin. Also if I'm not mistaken, wasn't it not too long ago that they found an ancient darker skinned sample in Europe?

http://www.cbc.ca/news/technology/europeans-had-dark-skin-blue-eyes-7-000-years-ago-1.2512465

Dienekes is often wrong, and he's wrong about this too.

The light pigmented mummies of Central Asia and Siberia were indeed of European origin, it's just that they didn't come from near the Balkans, but from further east, around the middle Volga and southern Urals.

alan
03-11-2014, 09:43 PM
I suppose one point worth emphasising is that the selection factors caused by farming in temperate Europe would act on all peoples once they started adopting farming, whether they were migrants from SW Asia or local hunters. I wonder if this acted partly in different ways. My feeling is that where farming was taken up by people with Mesolithic ancestry, the additional selection of the MC1R variants that create ultrafair skin which they may have carried in low numbers may have been strongly selected. Certainly unlike the general gene for fair skin that is also found in SW Asia (which yet again I saw ample evidence of again today on a news article about Syrian children), it seems to have a distribution more likely linked to late hunters. I suppose thought there is no evidence either way yet.

lgmayka
03-11-2014, 09:46 PM
paler skin appears to arrive in Europe with early farmers.
That's not what your own table says. Your table says that pastoralists were the first to have pale (fair) skin. You can speculate that they got it from crop-growers (or from extraterrestrials, for that matter), but your table offers no support for that hypothesis.

alan
03-11-2014, 10:45 PM
Selection could relate as much to temperate conditions and/or unreliability of farming in such conditions rather than anything else. In which case selection could have taken off in many places as farming expanded into areas where it is more challenging. That would include steppe but would also include most of temperate Europe where a Med. type climate is not available as well as more upland areas all over western Europe and even SW Asia. Upland areas of SW Asia were expanded into by farmers relatively late after 6000BC including the Caucasus, much of Iran, west-central Asia etc.

I suppose selection for pale skins could have come anywhere where farming struggled to provide the vitamins needed for life. Farmers trying to use a SW Asian adapted farming preconceived system may have struggled in areas where they tried to apply it that were significantly different. LBK collapsed. Certainly there may have been a difficult period of trial and error in new environment. Perhaps too the lack of sunshine in some areas made the ancestral system designed in sunnier climes unsuitable to provide the needed vitamins in some areas. All of these kinds of struggles could have led to selection for fair skin.

On a more dramatic scale there are some climatic events which might have caused massive population impacts and selection. The 8.2 and 5.9 yiloyear events could have caused phases of extreme stress and selection among survivors.


That's not what your own table says. Your table says that pastoralists were the first to have pale (fair) skin. You can speculate that they got it from crop-growers (or from extraterrestrials, for that matter), but your table offers no support for that hypothesis.

ZephyrousMandaru
03-11-2014, 11:02 PM
There's no strong evidence for the the Scythians or Tocharians originating in Eastern Europe. Mind you I said that one should be careful mixing ancient written history (And specially languages), with actual DNA studies. These are two different subjects that should not be mixed together.

Could these lighter skinned samples in Asia be from Europe? Maybe, but there's no evidence for that (I speculate that they're not). What we do know is the existence of darker skinned people in Eastern Europe 5000 years ago. What does that mean? That's up to personal opinions for now.

I agree, judging from this data. I think it would be reasonable to extrapolate that the Upper Paleolithic and Mesolithic Middle Easterners were also similarly dark skinned. Perhaps even more so due to the climate, I think a modern candidate of the UP Middle Easterners may be the isolated island people of Socotra. I think our agricultural diet may have lightened us up during the Neolithic, perhaps due to a diet deficient in Vitamin D intake. I think Middle Easterners may have been the first to undergo selective sweeps for this SLCA42 allele.

DMXX
03-11-2014, 11:05 PM
A quick run-through the SNP's they've used here.

1. rs12913832, in HERC2 (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22234890), considered the "central" SNP for brown vs. light eye colour as it has the greatest affect on phenotype. A = brown, G = light. AG gives a colour in-between the spectrum of brown and blue depending on other alleles present (know this from my eye colour project).

2. rs16891982, in SLC45A2 (http://snpedia.com/index.php/Rs16891982), associated with lighter pigmentation. The G allele peaks in Europeans. (http://snpedia.com/index.php/Rs16891982)

3. rs1042602, in TYR (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3885524/). C appears to be ancestral, with A being a transversion mutation most common in West Eurasians (http://snpedia.com/index.php/Rs1042602).* Modern Europeans appear to mostly be AA/AC.

* Transition mutations are where two similar nitrogenous bases are swapped for one another (e.g. purine, A<->G, pyramidine, C<->T), essentially "like for like". Transversion mutations, as is the case with rs1042602, are where different nitrogenous bases are swapped. There are multiple examples of this. (https://www.mun.ca/biology/scarr/Transitions_vs_Transversions.html)



Addressing the results specifically;

1. 36 samples are brown-eyed (AA), seven are mixed-hazel (AG) and four light-eyed (GG). All the non-brown samples are located either to the west or north of the Black Sea, or above the Caspian.
- Specifically addressing the four light-eyed samples (GG), all are found directly above the Pontic-Caspian steppe. Going by the coordinates provided in the supplementary (http://www.pnas.org/content/suppl/2014/03/05/1316513111.DCSupplemental/pnas.201316513SI.pdf);
-- Kalinovka I is near Samara, Russia (above Caspian, near Urals)
-- Mayaki I is near Odesa, Ukraine (northwest Black Sea)
-- Novozvanovka II is near Donetsk, Ukraine (two samples here)

2. Regarding rs16891982, CC = 9, CG = 7, GG = 6. This is in contrast to the allele distribution among modern Europeans. Note again an overwhelming majority of the CEU reference population have GG (http://snpedia.com/index.php/Rs16891982).

3. Finally drawing our attention to rs1042602, the majority of samples belong to CC. Referring once more to the CEU (and even TSI/Tuscan) reference populations, it appears most Europeans carry at least one A allele (http://snpedia.com/index.php/Rs1042602).



The Kurgan population along the steppes sampled at this particular point in time certainly do support the case for strong selection of lighter pigmentation. The majority of the samples simply don't appear to match modern Europeans, particularly with respect to the latter two SNPs, indicating most of them certainly were darker skinned.

Out of curiosity I checked my own allele values against these ancient remains. As it happens, I match the Riltsi sample fully (not that it means anything).

Jean M
03-11-2014, 11:06 PM
Your table says that pastoralists were the first to have pale (fair) skin..

No it doesn't. The LBK farmer had paler skin than the hunter-gatherer samples. The levels of pallor gradually increased, but we see the start of it with the incoming farmers. Pallor is not an all-or-nothing thing based on one allele. It is cumulative. Several different genes are involved. It did not arise in just one person or just one population.

Humanist
03-11-2014, 11:20 PM
Out of curiosity I checked my own allele values against these ancient remains. As it happens, I match the Riltsi sample fully (not that it means anything).

That is interesting. I do not match any of the samples completely.

rs12913832-GG
rs16891982-GG
rs1042602-AA

DMXX
03-11-2014, 11:27 PM
That is interesting. I do not match any of the samples completely.

rs12913832-GG
rs16891982-GG
rs1042602-AA

My values are as follows:



rs12913832 AA
rs16891982 GG
rs1042602 AC


It's clearly my AA @ rs12913832 and C @ rs1043602 which have awarded me a match with one of these Kurgans. You're simply too fair to pair with any of them; all of your alleles on those specific loci code for fair pigmentation. :P

[Edit]: ...Whereas soulblighter who posted below shares with a larger contingent of the Kurgans based on these SNPs.

soulblighter
03-11-2014, 11:30 PM
Both my mom and I are:
rs12913832-AA
rs16891982-CC
rs1042602-CC

Tomasso29
03-11-2014, 11:31 PM
Dienekes is often wrong, and he's wrong about this too.

The light pigmented mummies of Central Asia and Siberia were indeed of European origin, it's just that they didn't come from near the Balkans, but from further east, around the middle Volga and southern Urals.

That's great, all you have to do now is prove to me that these tested samples from this study came from the Balkans. When you do that, we can carry on from there.

Humanist
03-11-2014, 11:41 PM
My values are as follows:



rs12913832 AA
rs16891982 GG
rs1042602 AC


It's clearly my AA @ rs12913832 and C @ rs1043602 which have awarded me a match with one of these Kurgans. You're simply too fair to pair with any of them; all of your alleles on those specific loci code for fair pigmentation. :P

My brother is not as fair as I am. Here are his values:

rs12913832-GG
rs16891982-CG
rs1042602-CC

He is a match with the Novozvanovka II sample.


Both my mom and I are:
rs12913832-AA
rs16891982-CC
rs1042602-CC

That is a match with several of the samples.

everest59
03-12-2014, 12:00 AM
Both my mom and I are:
rs12913832-AA
rs16891982-CC
rs1042602-CC

Same here.

MfA
03-12-2014, 12:03 AM
I don't match with any of the samples

rs12913832 AA
rs16891982 CG
rs1042602 AC

parasar
03-12-2014, 12:25 AM
No it doesn't. The LBK farmer had paler skin than the hunter-gatherer samples. The levels of pallor gradually increased, but we see the start of it with the incoming farmers ...

There is no evidence that I see that these 'farmers' were incoming. They were more likely mesolithic, if not older, inhabitants of S/SE Europe.

Tomasso29
03-12-2014, 12:35 AM
Mine (Brown eyes/hair and light skin)
---------------
rs12913832-AA
rs16891982-GG
rs1042602-CC

Maternal Uncle (Brown eyes/hair and dark skin)
----------------
rs12913832-AG
rs16891982-CG
rs1042602-CC

Maternal Cousin (Light brown eyes/hair and light skin)
----------------
rs12913832-AA
rs16891982-GG
rs1042602-CC

Maternal Cousin (Brown eyes/hair and dark skin)
----------------
rs12913832-AG
rs16891982-CC
rs1042602-CC

Maternal Cousin (Dark blonde hair, blue eyes, and light skin)
----------------
rs12913832-GG
rs16891982-GG
rs1042602-AC

3rd cousin from mother's side (Brown eyes/hair and light skin )
----------------
rs12913832-AG
rs16891982-GG
rs1042602-AC

Pakistani (Punjabi) friend of mine (Brown eyes/hair and dark skin)
----------------
rs12913832-AA
rs16891982-CC
rs1042602-CC

Looks like CC on rs16891982 is dark skinned pretty much.

parasar
03-12-2014, 12:35 AM
I don't match with any of the samples

rs12913832 AA
rs16891982 CG
rs1042602 AC


Same here:
AA
CG
AC

Generalissimo
03-12-2014, 12:35 AM
That's great, all you have to do now is prove to me that these tested samples from this study came from the Balkans. When you do that, we can carry on from there.

The study is open access, and the geographic coordinates are listed for all the samples in Table S1. Most samples are from the Balkans and southern Ukraine, where people are generally darker than other Eastern Europeans even today.


There is no evidence that I see that these 'farmers' were incoming. They were more likely mesolithic, if not older, inhabitants of S/SE Europe.

No they weren't, because they're a world away genetically from La Brana.

parasar
03-12-2014, 12:42 AM
...

No they weren't, because they're a world away genetically from La Brana.

And La Brana from them. You are assuming that La Brana is earlier and that two quite distinct and separate populations could not coexist for a long period in Europe.

Humanist
03-12-2014, 01:05 AM
It's interesting that the two individuals from further east, at Novozvanovka, have markers for blue eyes.

That is interesting. My brother matches one of the Novozvanovka II samples. My brother has blue eyes. I am also GG at rs12913832, but have green eyes.

Jean M
03-12-2014, 01:06 AM
There is no evidence that I see that these 'farmers' were incoming.

The genetic evidence is now overwhelming that the LBK farmers were descendants of incomers from the Near East. They were not descended from Mesolithic people of Europe, as shown by ancient mtDNA, Y-DNA and autosomal DNA.

It really is time to move on.

parasar
03-12-2014, 01:21 AM
The genetic evidence is now overwhelming that the LBK farmers were descendants of incomers from the Near East. They were not descended from Mesolithic people of Europe, as shown by ancient mtDNA, Y-DNA and autosomal DNA.

It really is time to move on.

Hardly overwhelming. Where is the evidence from Upper-paleolithic and Mesolithic Greece, Italy, and the Balkans showing that Stuttgart was any different from Mesolithic and earlier peoples of Greece, Italy,and the Balkans?

Tomasso29
03-12-2014, 01:32 AM
The study is open access, and the geographic coordinates are listed for all the samples in Table S1. Most samples are from the Balkans and southern Ukraine, where people are generally darker than other Eastern Europeans even today.

Did you even check the coordinates?

Here's where rs16891982 = CC (Definite dark skin) was found:
1609

Here's where rs16891982 = CG (Potential dark skin) was found:
1610

Here's where rs16891982 = GG (Light skin) was found:
1611

How can you prove that (rs16891982 = CC) came from the Balkans when all the coordinates point further east?

Generalissimo
03-12-2014, 01:49 AM
Did you even check the coordinates?

Yes, I did. Four sample sites are from Bulgaria, which is in the Balkans, and most of the individuals come from south of 48 degrees latitude, which means the data says nothing about the Proto-Indo-Europeans and the groups that moved east into Asia from Sintashta during and after the Middle Bronze Age.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/20/Kurgan_map.png

http://secher.bernard.free.fr/CordedWare_to_Sintashta.jpg

Tomasso29
03-12-2014, 02:03 AM
Yes, I did. Four sample sites are from Bulgaria, which is in the Balkans, and most of the individuals come from south of 48 degrees latitude, which means the data says nothing about the Proto-Indo-Europeans and the groups that moved east into Asia from Sintashta during and after the Middle Bronze Age.

Check out the samples I posted from personal 23andMe results, rs16891982 = GG are all light skinned while rs16891982 = GG and CG are dark skinned.

From the table I took all the samples that actually contained this specific SNP and mapped them based on the coordinates. It seems like the majority of them were dark skinned and only one potential dark skinned (rs16891982 = CG) was from Bulgaria.

jeanL
03-12-2014, 03:40 AM
My mom:

rs12913832-AG
rs16891982-CG
rs1042602-CC

She is the only one in my family with CG, I tested her paternal aunt(Dad's sister) with 23andme, and aunt is rs16891982 GG, so it would suggest that maybe she got it from her mother, that is my maternal grandmother. However, neither my mom, nor her maternal side of the family were dark skinned. My mom had very fair skin as a little girl, she does have almost pitch black hair, well had before it went gray, she has early graying starting at the age of 16.

Tomasso29
03-12-2014, 04:12 AM
My mom:

rs12913832-AG
rs16891982-CG
rs1042602-CC

She is the only one in my family with CG, I tested her paternal aunt(Dad's sister) with 23andme, and aunt is rs16891982 GG, so it would suggest that maybe she got it from her mother, that is my maternal grandmother. However, neither my mom, nor her maternal side of the family were dark skinned. My mom had very fair skin as a little girl, she does have almost pitch black hair, well had before it went gray, she has early graying starting at the age of 16.

I think the CG on rs16891982 might be the reason why she's not dark. Also the CC on rs1042602 might also explain the dark hair.

alan
03-12-2014, 07:22 AM
There has been a lot of Ukrainians and south-west Russians on TV recently due to the winter Olympics and Ukraine and they appear to be relatively dark in terms of eyes and hair compared to what I expected them to look like. Complexion wise the main thing I noticed was a sort of deathly ashen pale (which is probably the winter look in those parts) rather than a pink or ruddy sort of complexion. Also judging from TV are no doubt other areas of Russia where mousey hair and light eyes are much more typical.

alan
03-12-2014, 07:30 AM
Maybe the west to east corded ware-middle dneiper-fatyanovo-Abashevo-Sintashta cultural chain as outline by Anthony really did have an impact on the make up the IE groups that have been linked to them. If it did then it would seem to have been most likely to bring genes in from the area marked 'contact zone' on the map you posted or perhaps the substrates that they moved through.


Yes, I did. Four sample sites are from Bulgaria, which is in the Balkans, and most of the individuals come from south of 48 degrees latitude, which means the data says nothing about the Proto-Indo-Europeans and the groups that moved east into Asia from Sintashta during and after the Middle Bronze Age.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/20/Kurgan_map.png

http://secher.bernard.free.fr/CordedWare_to_Sintashta.jpg

Tomasso29
03-12-2014, 12:07 PM
There has been a lot of Ukrainians and south-west Russians on TV recently due to the winter Olympics and Ukraine and they appear to be relatively dark in terms of eyes and hair compared to what I expected them to look like. Complexion wise the main thing I noticed was a sort of deathly ashen pale (which is probably the winter look in those parts) rather than a pink or ruddy sort of complexion. Also judging from TV are no doubt other areas of Russia where mousey hair and light eyes are much more typical.

Did you see any of them darker than this?

1612

Because I've been browsing and searching around and looking up threads on 23andMe for those who are rs16891982-CC and I have yet to come across anything lighter than the pic I posted. Not saying such pigmentation in Ukraine does not exist, but it's a rarity among actual Ukrainians today and if found, it's usually a presentation of recent outside influence.

newtoboard
03-12-2014, 12:39 PM
That's great, all you have to do now is prove to me that these tested samples from this study came from the Balkans. When you do that, we can carry on from there.

The Catacomb culture had such continuity with previous steppe cultures while its eastern neighbor Poltavka did (and its descendant culture showed light pigmentation). So it is likely there was some gene flow into the steppe from the Balkans.

newtoboard
03-12-2014, 12:42 PM
The study is open access, and the geographic coordinates are listed for all the samples in Table S1. Most samples are from the Balkans and southern Ukraine, where people are generally darker than other Eastern Europeans even today.



No they weren't, because they're a world away genetically from La Brana.

And I believe some maps don't include parts of Southern Ukraine (and the Crimea) as part of the PIE homeland.

newtoboard
03-12-2014, 12:58 PM
Maybe the west to east corded ware-middle dneiper-fatyanovo-Abashevo-Sintashta cultural chain as outline by Anthony really did have an impact on the make up the IE groups that have been linked to them. If it did then it would seem to have been most likely to bring genes in from the area marked 'contact zone' on the map you posted or perhaps the substrates that they moved through.

I am skeptical of that.

I really doubt Abashevo left any genes in Asia (although an mtDNA influence is possible). Every other culture in that chain is likely linked to some sort of R1a-Z283+ lineage and I don't think Abashevo is any different. If we ever find Z283+, Z282+, Z280+, M458+ alongside Z93+ then we know Abashevo left influence in Asia. That isn't the case other than in the North Caucasus whose complex history makes it hard to determine if these lineages arrived there together. But who knows? Asia is relatively understudied and we might see some WHG like admixture alongside European R1a varieties in Central Asia/NW South Asia pop up one day.

There is in fact plenty to support a non Indo-Iranian identity of Abashevo too. Abashevo ultimately leads to the formation of Timber Grave and Cimmerians. If Proto Indo-Iranian was only spoken in Asia (as is the consensus theory) how can the language of Timber Grave and Cimmerian related cultures be Indo-Iranian or Iranian as they are often theorized? It seems likely Abashevo spoke something related to Indo-Iranian and was only a source of cultural influence in Asia.

But the fact of the matter is Abashevo was intrusive in the forest steppe. It reflects the intrusion of Poltavka nomads. And given that Poltavka and Abasehvo were the dominant influence in the formation of Sintashta-Andronovo and Abashevo already had a Poltavka element it seems Poltavka is the likely element to have contributed to Asian IE speakers with Abashevo just being a minor element that did not contribute a major amount of gene flow.

Ancient samples need to be tested to verify all this of course.

jeanL
03-12-2014, 01:29 PM
I think the CG on rs16891982 might be the reason why she's not dark. Also the CC on rs1042602 might also explain the dark hair.

I'm not so sure, like I said she is the only one who is CG at rs16891982, everyone else in my family is GG, yet she doesn't appear darker skin wise. She does have an ability to tan that myself and my dad's side of the family lacks, so perhaps it is the "C" at rs16891982 that creates that. As for the TYR rs1042602, not sure about it being linked to black hair, in that one everyone in my family is CC except my paternal grandfather who is AC and my maternal grand aunt(maternal grandfather's sister), while my maternal grand aunt had medium brown-light brown hair younger, my paternal grandmother who is CC at rs1042602 had dark blonde to very light brown hair up until her 30s. I believe the situation is far more complex than just a handful of loci. Here is another gene that plays a role in skin color:

rs642742 (http://snpedia.com/index.php/Rs642742)

My mom appears to be CC per 23andme for this one, or GG according to snpedia. Interestingly myself and my paternal grandparents are CT or GA for that one, while my dad actually ended up being TT or AA, yet he isn't darker skin wise than his parents, if anything he is pretty darn light, and burns really easily in the sun.

newtoboard
03-12-2014, 01:51 PM
What confuses me is why people continuously try to link the Catacomb culture to R1a and/or a Satem language. I suspect it is some sort of method to try to argue R1a did not exist on the steppe until the end of the Yamnaya. Shame that no Satem language has ever been linked to Catacomb.

Tomasso29
03-12-2014, 02:12 PM
What confuses me is why people continuously try to link the Catacomb culture to R1a and/or a Satem language. I suspect it is some sort of method to try to argue R1a did not exist on the steppe until the end of the Yamnaya. Shame that no Satem language has ever been linked to Catacomb.

I think the bigger confusion should be people mixing languages and DNA all together.

I should also mention what's worse is people mixing up different cultures from different periods and assuming that they're the same when very little evidence is available (This is what I get from the steppe crew mostly).

alan
03-12-2014, 02:16 PM
No they are no dark skinned. They just look pasty like many northern Europeans in the winter. It was just that they seemed to have quite a lot of dark hair and some dark eyes too whereas I had a mental picture of Ukrainians as being dirty fair haired and blue eyed - probably based on football players rather than anything scientific! That said mid-dark brown hair is probably the most common adult hair colour even in much of NW Europe, Balkans and much of central Europe so its pretty normal. People on the internet who havent been to Europe have some very strange ideas about blondism in Europe based on 19th century books. Its just black hair that is rare.


Did you see any of them darker than this?

1612

Because I've been browsing and searching around and looking up threads on 23andMe for those who are rs16891982-CC and I have yet to come across anything lighter than the pic I posted. Not saying such pigmentation in Ukraine does not exist, but it's a rarity among actual Ukrainians today and if found, it's usually a presentation of recent outside influence.

Tomasso29
03-12-2014, 02:31 PM
No they are no dark skinned. They just look pasty like many northern Europeans in the winter. It was just that they seemed to have quite a lot of dark hair and some dark eyes too whereas I had a mental picture of Ukrainians as being dirty fair haired and blue eyed - probably based on football players rather than anything scientific! That said mid-dark brown hair is probably the most common adult hair colour even in much of NW Europe, Balkans and much of central Europe so its pretty normal. People on the internet who havent been to Europe have some very strange ideas about blondism in Europe based on 19th century books. Its just black hair that is rare.

Dark hair and eyes even exist in Northern Europe so nothing out of the ordinary there, it's the rs16891982-CC in those samples that may indicate the actual dark skin that is not found in modern Europe outside obvious infleunces (Roma, African, etc).


I'm not so sure, like I said she is the only one who is CG at rs16891982, everyone else in my family is GG, yet she doesn't appear darker skin wise. She does have an ability to tan that myself and my dad's side of the family lacks, so perhaps it is the "C" at rs16891982 that creates that. As for the TYR rs1042602, not sure about it being linked to black hair, in that one everyone in my family is CC except my paternal grandfather who is AC and my maternal grand aunt(maternal grandfather's sister), while my maternal grand aunt had medium brown-light brown hair younger, my paternal grandmother who is CC at rs1042602 had dark blonde to very light brown hair up until her 30s. I believe the situation is far more complex than just a handful of loci. Here is another gene that plays a role in skin color:

rs642742 (http://snpedia.com/index.php/Rs642742)

My mom appears to be CC per 23andme for this one, or GG according to snpedia. Interestingly myself and my paternal grandparents are CT or GA for that one, while my dad actually ended up being TT or AA, yet he isn't darker skin wise than his parents, if anything he is pretty darn light, and burns really easily in the sun.

After looking around I think rs16891982 is the crucial SNP for skin color, I'm sure other SNPs probably have an influence but having rs16891982-CC seems to always show darker skin. I'm also assuming rs16891982-CG in Europeans might be influenced enough by other SNPs for the pigmentation not to be dark.

Invisible Sun
03-12-2014, 02:54 PM
When it comes to potential R1 males Ydna is often left out :P
Are there released infos about Motala samples pigmentation traits?

BTW for the 3 SNPs I have:

HERC2 rs12913832 - GG
SLC45A2 rs16891982 - GG
TYR rs1042602 - AC

alan
03-12-2014, 02:57 PM
It certainly is very confusing the amount of different models for culture-language correlations. Fatyanovo does seem pretty well sound as a correlate with Baltic but Abashevo doesnt seem to have a language attributed to it with any confidence.

Is it possible that the corded ware element that is pretty unanimously agreed to exist within the Middle Dnieper, Fatyanovo and Abashevo cultures might be a female aspect - after all pottery was generally made by the women and hence could be the result of intermarriage on the steppe-corded ware interface area. It would be interesting to look at those cultures and how they diverge from both corded ware and steppe norms - which they clearly do being a hybrid. Would that reveal that most traditionally feminine aspects of these cultures derives from corded ware while the traditionally masculine aspects are more steppic? I dont know of the top of my head but I may have a think about that and dig out a few books. Off the top of my head I recall too that Fatyanovo and Abashevo appear to have absorbed some agricultural practices not of steppe origin. Anyway that is totally speculative but it could provide an explanation for some gene flow heading west to east c. 3000BC. Middle Dnieper (which apparently local succeeds Yamnaya and late Trypole) and Fatyanovo are very corded ware like maybe to much so to just put it down to corded ware wives. Abashevo is somewhat less so as the latter has kurgans and other differences. If so then it is Abashevo where fresh steppe elements mixed with corded ware ones. I must admit I find it very hard to get my head around how corded ware could become so IE-ised so fast and almost immediately start heading east as cultures linked to Baltic etc. It just seems very fast and Fatyanovo just seems too corded ware like to produce such a pure IE dialect as Baltic. In short, its very confusing.


I am skeptical of that.

I really doubt Abashevo left any genes in Asia (although an mtDNA influence is possible). Every other culture in that chain is likely linked to some sort of R1a-Z283+ lineage and I don't think Abashevo is any different. If we ever find Z283+, Z282+, Z280+, M458+ alongside Z93+ then we know Abashevo left influence in Asia. That isn't the case other than in the North Caucasus whose complex history makes it hard to determine if these lineages arrived there together. But who knows? Asia is relatively understudied and we might see some WHG like admixture alongside European R1a varieties in Central Asia/NW South Asia pop up one day.

There is in fact plenty to support a non Indo-Iranian identity of Abashevo too. Abashevo ultimately leads to the formation of Timber Grave and Cimmerians. If Proto Indo-Iranian was only spoken in Asia (as is the consensus theory) how can the language of Timber Grave and Cimmerian related cultures be Indo-Iranian or Iranian as they are often theorized? It seems likely Abashevo spoke something related to Indo-Iranian and was only a source of cultural influence in Asia.

But the fact of the matter is Abashevo was intrusive in the forest steppe. It reflects the intrusion of Poltavka nomads. And given that Poltavka and Abasehvo were the dominant influence in the formation of Sintashta-Andronovo and Abashevo already had a Poltavka element it seems Poltavka is the likely element to have contributed to Asian IE speakers with Abashevo just being a minor element that did not contribute a major amount of gene flow.

Ancient samples need to be tested to verify all this of course.

alan
03-12-2014, 04:49 PM
Well the selection theory seems to have the upper hand now and the process has clearly not being going on for very long or very strongly in the period leading up to the bronze Age on the western steppe. I suppose its probably worth noting how little progress farming had made east of the Dnieper in pre-Yamnaya times and many culture east of that river (and even some west of it) still had a big fishing/hunting aspect right up to Yamnaya and the switch to mobile pastoralism on wheels. So, any selection for fair skin caused by moving away from hunter-fisher diets only really took place in large parts of the steppe c. 3300BC but had happened much earlier in other parts of Europe. So, perhaps the western steppe is the last place to look for early selection for fair skin due to diet change and therefore the results are not too surprising.




Dark hair and eyes even exist in Northern Europe so nothing out of the ordinary there, it's the rs16891982-CC in those samples that may indicate the actual dark skin that is not found in modern Europe outside obvious infleunces (Roma, African, etc).



After looking around I think rs16891982 is the crucial SNP for skin color, I'm sure other SNPs probably have an influence but having rs16891982-CC seems to always show darker skin. I'm also assuming rs16891982-CG in Europeans might be influenced enough by other SNPs for the pigmentation not to be dark.

Jean M
03-12-2014, 05:05 PM
For those wondering exactly where the samples were taken from, here is a map.

1613

Tomasso29
03-12-2014, 05:08 PM
Well the selection theory seems to have the upper hand now and the process has clearly not being going on for very long or very strongly in the period leading up to the bronze Age on the western steppe. I suppose its probably worth noting how little progress farming had made east of the Dnieper in pre-Yamnaya times and many culture east of that river (and even some west of it) still had a big fishing/hunting aspect right up to Yamnaya and the switch to mobile pastoralism on wheels. So, any selection for fair skin caused by moving away from hunter-fisher diets only really took place in large parts of the steppe c. 3300BC but had happened much earlier in other parts of Europe. So, perhaps the western steppe is the last place to look for early selection for fair skin due to diet change and therefore the results are not too surprising.

Whether the selection theory seems to have the upper hand or not, it should be worthy to remember that going into too much detail on our end trying to explain things on this forum is really as good as telling a story to a baby.

Jean M
03-12-2014, 05:09 PM
Well the selection theory seems to have the upper hand now

Now? This is not a recent idea. Geneticists have been in agreement for a long time on this. It is so glaringly obvious that the cline of dark skin is correlated with latitude across the globe that you really can't miss it. Darwin noticed it. I have loads of papers on this which are available to you.

Here is a video of Nina Jablonski on the topic. http://www.uctv.tv/shows/Darwins-Birthday-Suit-The-Evolution-of-Human-Skin-Pigmentation-16926

everest59
03-12-2014, 05:45 PM
I haven't read the paper, but can anybody tell me which region has the oldest known light hair to date?

Jean M
03-12-2014, 06:08 PM
I haven't read the paper, but can anybody tell me which region has the oldest known light hair to date?

Apart from the recent data from the paper under discussion on this thread, on the basis of DNA - An Andronovo sample from Solenoozernaïa IV, kourgane I, burial 3, Krasnoyarsk region, Russia 1800–1400 BC.

I still haven't added the data from Wilde to my new table. I'm not even sure whether it is in a format that makes it possible to work out the hair colour.

Humanist
03-12-2014, 06:32 PM
That is interesting. I do not match any of the samples completely.

rs12913832-GG
rs16891982-GG
rs1042602-AA


My brother is not as fair as I am. Here are his values:

rs12913832-GG
rs16891982-CG
rs1042602-CC

He is a match with the Novozvanovka II sample.


1612

Because I've been browsing and searching around and looking up threads on 23andMe for those who are rs16891982-CC and I have yet to come across anything lighter than the pic I posted.

You and I are probably very near in skin color. It is fascinating how well this particular SNP correlates with skin color. A picture of my brother (at 13), below. I would put him, and his CG genotype between the photo of the Arab you posted, and you and I, as far as skin color is concerned:

http://i1096.photobucket.com/albums/g326/dok101/Faces/SCAN0003a.jpg

Jean M
03-12-2014, 06:33 PM
Razib Khan takes on the topic: http://www.unz.com/gnxp/descent-and-selection-is-a-bugger/

ZephyrousMandaru
03-12-2014, 06:57 PM
Wasn't the Caucasus inhabited by the descendants of the Sumerians? If so, would the Sumerians had been similarly dark skinned?

Humanist
03-12-2014, 10:10 PM
Wasn't the Caucasus inhabited by the descendants of the Sumerians?

That is up for debate.


[W]ould the Sumerians had been similarly dark skinned?

I do not know. We can only speculate based on circumstantial evidence. Such as the Standard of Ur*. But, even then, there are variables that may render our inferences invalid. The best thing to do, of course, would be to test the hundreds of Sumerian remains now housed in museums and universities in Europe and America. That is, if there is any workable aDNA to extract.

*
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b6/Ur_lyre.jpg

(Image Source - Wikipedia)

parasar
03-12-2014, 10:32 PM
Razib Khan takes on the topic: http://www.unz.com/gnxp/descent-and-selection-is-a-bugger/

I believe he still thinks Y-R is of west eurasian origin when it is Y-H that is more likely to be of west eurasian provenance.

Jean M
03-12-2014, 11:48 PM
Wasn't the Caucasus inhabited by the descendants of the Sumerians?

Both Mesopotamia and the South Caucasus were populated by farmers from the heartlands of the Neolithic (the Taurus and Zagros area) in flight from the climate crisis of 6200 BC. When the people of Sumeria became literate c. 3300 BC, their language is revealed as Sumerian, which is not related to any of the languages of the Caucasus. But these were all Near Eastern people in whom some selection for paler skin is presumed to have taken place.

Tomasso29
03-13-2014, 11:02 PM
Here's an interesting fact, Ötzi the Iceman was actually fair skinned:

http://www.nature.com/ncomms/journal/v3/n2/full/ncomms1701.html#supplementary-information

He was rs16891982-G/G which is what most modern Europeans are. This same sample dates back to around 5000 years ago (Similar to the study from this thread).

Besides pigmentation and mtDNA, did they do any further testing on these samples? The amount of rs16891982-C/C is quite overwhelming and certainly does not fit in that area.

Generalissimo
03-14-2014, 12:52 AM
Besides pigmentation and mtDNA, did they do any further testing on these samples? The amount of rs16891982-C/C is quite overwhelming and certainly does not fit in that area.

In the study brief it says they were planning to test ancestry informative nuclear DNA, but they didn't report the results. In terms of mtDNA, these samples cluster closest to Unetice and Bernburg cultures from eastern Germany, mostly due to the fairly high incidence of mtDNA U. But they're not too far away from modern Central Europeans (Austrians, Germans, Poles and Czechs).

By the way, La Brana, Loschbour and Stuttgart were all CC at rs16891982.

parasar
03-14-2014, 01:13 AM
Here's an interesting fact, Ötzi the Iceman was actually fair skinned:

http://www.nature.com/ncomms/journal/v3/n2/full/ncomms1701.html#supplementary-information

He was rs16891982-G/G which is what most modern Europeans are. This same sample dates back to around 5000 years ago (Similar to the study from this thread).

Besides pigmentation and mtDNA, did they do any further testing on these samples? The amount of rs16891982-C/C is quite overwhelming and certainly does not fit in that area.

Exactly, he is the reason that I had put ' ' around farmers when I had mentioned to Jean - There is no evidence that I see that these 'farmers' were incoming. - as it is highly doubtful that he was either incoming or a farmer.

Jean M
03-14-2014, 01:23 AM
Exactly, and that he is the reason that I had put ' ' around farmers when I had mentioned to Jean - There is no evidence that I see that these 'farmers' were incoming. - as it is highly doubtful that he was either incoming or a farmer.

Of course Ötzi wasn't an early Neolithic farmer straight off the boat from the Near East. He lived thousands of years later. :biggrin1:

But genetically Ötzi clusters with early European farmers, who most closely resemble modern people from Anatolia. Of modern Europeans, Sardinians are the closest to him. Sardinians seem to represent a genetic reservoir of a signature once common over Europe, but swamped in most places by incoming Copper to Bronze Age Indo-Europeans. It is significant that until the Romans imposed Latin on them, Sardinians spoke a non-Indo-European language.

Generalissimo
03-14-2014, 01:31 AM
Oetzi is classified as a farmer in the context of these studies because the archaeological culture he belonged to mainly relied on farming for subsistence. It doesn't matter whether he was actually a farmer or not. He might well have been a hunter, but that doesn't change anything.

Jean M
03-14-2014, 01:31 AM
In terms of mtDNA, these samples cluster closest to Unetice and Bernburg cultures from eastern Germany, mostly due to the fairly high incidence of mtDNA U.

Rather than trying to make comparisons of percentages of the various mtDNA haplogroups, which we cannot expect to remain constant over time, I feel more comfortable with tracking rarer haplogroups. I noted a while ago that U2e appears to have spread with the Indo-Europeans. It appears in Andronovo, Bell Beaker and Corded Ware. Now it has turned up as expected in Yamnaya - sample POP3 looks like U2e1a.

Jean M
03-14-2014, 01:34 AM
Oetzi is classified as a farmer in the context of these studies because the archaeological culture he belonged to mainly relied on farming for subsistence. It doesn't matter whether he was actually a farmer or not. He might well have been a hunter, but that doesn't change anything.

He was probably hunting when he died, but he was a herder mainly. As you say though, it makes no odds. Pastoralism comes under the heading of farming.

parasar
03-14-2014, 01:36 AM
Of course Ötzi wasn't an early Neolithic farmer straight off the boat from the Near East. He lived thousands of years later. :biggrin1:

But genetically Ötzi clusters with early European farmers, who most closely resemble modern people from Anatolia. Of modern Europeans, Sardinians are the closest to him. Sardinians seem to represent a genetic reservoir of a signature once common over Europe, but swamped in most places by incoming Copper to Bronze Age Indo-Europeans. It is significant that until the Romans imposed Latin on them, Sardinians spoke a non-Indo-European language.

True. But that modern is key. Plus Anatolians would be difficult to distinguish from folk across the Bosphorus.

Generalissimo
03-14-2014, 01:39 AM
Rather than trying to make comparisons of percentages of the various mtDNA haplogroups, which we cannot expect to remain constant over time, I feel more comfortable with tracking rarer haplogroups. I noted a while ago that U2e appears to have spread with the Indo-Europeans. It appears in Andronovo, Bell Beaker and Corded Ware. Now it has turned up as expected in Yamnaya - sample POP3 looks like U2e1a.

Well, the Unetice mtDNA actually has some very distinct traits in the context of ancient European mtDNA diversity, like high U, relatively low H, as well as the presence of U2 and R. The Kurgan mtDNA shows the same traits, so it's not a coincidence that they cluster together.

Bell Beaker mtDNA is very different, so they probably got their U2e by swapping women with the Unetice folks in Central Europe.

http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p217/dpwes/Wilde_Brandt_mtDNA_PCA.png~original

http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p217/dpwes/Wilde_Brandt_mtDNA.png~original

parasar
03-14-2014, 01:40 AM
Oetzi is classified as a farmer in the context of these studies because the archaeological culture he belonged to mainly relied on farming for subsistence. It doesn't matter whether he was actually a farmer or not. He might well have been a hunter, but that doesn't change anything.

It does, as I think he is remnant of an earlier (Mesolithic or earlier) SE European hunter type, some of whom transitioned to farming.

Generalissimo
03-14-2014, 01:51 AM
It does, as I think he is remnant of an earlier (Mesolithic or earlier) SE European hunter type, some of whom transitioned to farming.

I don't see any support for this in the data currently available.

parasar
03-14-2014, 02:15 AM
I don't see any support for this in the data currently available.

When we find L(xM,N) at any of these LBK sites, I will change my mind. Until then, I am not convinced of a movement to Europe (incld. Anatolia, Cappadocia) from the near east. It seems more likely to me that the migration was from Europe to the near east.

Jean M
03-14-2014, 10:50 AM
When we find L(xM,N) at any of these LBK sites, I will change my mind.

Why would we expect L(xM,N) anywhere in Europe at any time? Looks like you are ignoring the archaeological and genetic evidence that persuaded most of us years ago that the L3 group who left Africa and whose descendants populated the rest of the globe did not go straight to the Levant. This is the picture I take from the data:

1623

It is scarcely controversial. The mtDNA haplogroup that entered Europe with the first Homo sapiens to arrive there was U. That is pretty clear. It is equally clear that some of the parent R also arrived in the Near East with early Homo Sapiens. It is from R (not L3 directly) that all the rest of the common haplogroups in the Near East and Europe derive.

1624

These haplogroups are found in ancient DNA from the Near Eastern Neolithic. See http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/wasianneolithicdna.shtml

Then they are found in the LBK and other early Neolithic cultures in Europe. http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/europeanneolithicdna.shtml

This pattern is dramatically different from Mesolithic Europeans, who are dominated by mtDNA U. http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/mesolithicdna.shtml

Jean M
03-14-2014, 10:58 AM
It seems more likely to me that the migration was from Europe to the near east.

This contradicts all the evidence. West Eurasian farming began in the Near East. It is thousands of years earlier there than in Europe. Also the domesticated plants and animals that arrived in Europe all had their origins in the Near East.

See http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1287502/ to start with, (though the picture looks a bit more complicated to me than the steady rate of speed proposed here.)

For the world picture, see http://classconnection.s3.amazonaws.com/926/flashcards/1896926/jpg/origins_and_spread_of_agriculture_map1347837538959 .jpg

newtoboard
03-14-2014, 02:59 PM
When we find L(xM,N) at any of these LBK sites, I will change my mind. Until then, I am not convinced of a movement to Europe (incld. Anatolia, Cappadocia) from the near east. It seems more likely to me that the migration was from Europe to the near east.

So the artificial diversity of R1a in England causes you to argue that R1a originated in the UK against all evidence but at the same time the real diversity of G in West Asia is completely ignored by you as is a plethora of archeological evidence.

parasar
03-14-2014, 04:14 PM
So the artificial diversity of R1a in England causes you to argue that R1a originated in the UK against all evidence but at the same time the real diversity of G in West Asia is completely ignored by you as is a plethora of archeological evidence.

Diversity and ancient DNA are two different forms of evidence.
For R1a1, England and its north sea periphery show maximum SNP diversity and the earliest confirmed R1a1 is indeed from western Europe and looks to be an early split.

Which place in West Asia has the "real" diversity of G?

Jean M
03-14-2014, 04:51 PM
For R1a1, England and its north sea periphery show maximum SNP diversity

This is just proof that diversity does not always help to pinpoint origin. :) It can arise from multiple waves of immigrants and clearly did in this case.


the earliest confirmed R1a1 is indeed from western Europe

Not as far as I know. R1a1a appears in ancient DNA from cultures of Central Europe and Asia which have long been suspected to be vectors of Indo-European languages. The logical deduction therefore is that it spread with PIE on the whole, though some may have arrived in Lapland at an earlier date (c. 7000 BC) with ANE, seemingly spread from Central Asia with pressure flaking.

newtoboard
03-14-2014, 04:54 PM
Diversity and ancient DNA are two different forms of evidence.
For R1a1, England and its north sea periphery show maximum SNP diversity and the earliest confirmed R1a1 is indeed from western Europe and looks to be an early split.

Which place in West Asia has the "real" diversity of G?

So a small group of Alans and Scandinavians leaving their lineages in the UK makes it look like R1a originated in Western Europe? This is my point. You constantly ignore known migrations and then point to artificial diversity. This is the same illogical line of thinking that makes people think Z93+ originated in Asia as opposed to Eastern Europe. There is no Z93+ in the area where it likely originated. Can you prove that even one of those SNP's originated in Western Europe? Neither Z284+, Z280+, Z93+ are a good candidates for originating in Western Europe. (And who knows if L664+ didn't originate somewhere in Corded Ware either.) Neither reach any sort of frequency or diversity peak there and they can all be traced back to Eastern Europe. So the entire Z645+ branch has nothing to do with Western Europe. If the early split between Z645+ and CTS4385 actually mattered to you that would suggest a Central European origin for R1a not your suggested Western European one too. Sardinia has the same diversity too btw. Who cares? Why not also suggest Z645+ originated in Uzbekistan? After all you can find Z280+, M458+ and Z93+ there. That the Z280+ and M458+ samples found there can be counted on one hand shouldn't matter and are likely a remnant of Soviet times shouldn't matter. The oldest R1a has been found in Eastern Germany which is not too far from where Corded Ware originated (Southern Poland). And given that most scholars think Corded Ware was IE speaking it likely had a steppe influx at some point. The only reason that this sample is the oldest is because nobody has bothered to test Eastern Corded Ware, Yamnaya, Afanasievo, Dnieper Donets, Samara, and Khvalynsk sites or any sites in Central Asia such as Botai and Keltiminar (and maybe even Jeitun and Hissar). The oldest light haired sample is an Andronovo sample as Jean mentioned. I don't think anybody wants to argue blonde hair originated among South Siberians speaking Iranian languages.

As for G how about Armenia, Azerbaijan, NW Iran? The paper on this was already discussed a while back. And Dienekes blogged about it. This is actual diversity because some clades of G seem to be almost restricted to the Caucasus area and surrounds whereas the majority of R1a clades are not restricted to Northwest Europe. The migrations associated with G are also in the right direction for G to have originated where it reaches its maximum diversity. Also sorry I'm not buying that the idea that numerous archeologists around the world all missed a migration from Europe to West Asia, Central Asia and South Asia during the Neolithic.

It is ridiculous to ignore archeological evidence and historical movements in favor of SNP diversity or limited (very very limited) ancient DNA samples. Everything should be looked at together.

soulblighter
03-14-2014, 05:00 PM
So a small group of Alans and Scandinavians leaving their lineages in the UK makes it look like R1a originated in Western Europe? This is my point. You constantly ignore known migrations and then point to artificial diversity. This is the same illogical line of thinking that makes people think Z93+ originated in Asia as opposed to Eastern Europe. There is no Z93+ in the area where it likely originated. Can you prove that even one of those SNP's originated in Western Europe? Neither Z284+, Z280+, Z93+ are a good candidates for originating in Western Europe. (And who knows if L664+ didn't originate somewhere in Corded Ware either.) Neither reach any sort of frequency or diversity peak there and they can all be traced back to Eastern Europe. So the entire Z645+ branch has nothing to do with Western Europe. If the early split between Z645+ and CTS4385 actually mattered to you that would suggest a Central European origin for R1a not your suggested Western European one too. Sardinia has the same diversity too btw. Who cares? Why not also suggest Z645+ originated in Uzbekistan? After all you can find Z280+, M458+ and Z93+ there. That the Z280+ and M458+ samples found there can be counted on one hand shouldn't matter and are likely a remnant of Soviet times shouldn't matter. The oldest R1a has been found in Eastern Germany which is not too far from where Corded Ware originated (Southern Poland). And given that most scholars think Corded Ware was IE speaking it likely had a steppe influx at some point. The only reason that this sample is the oldest is because nobody has bothered to test Eastern Corded Ware, Yamnaya, Afanasievo, Dnieper Donets, Samara, and Khvalynsk sites or any sites in Central Asia such as Botai and Keltiminar (and maybe even Jeitun and Hissar). The oldest light haired sample is an Andronovo sample as Jean mentioned. I don't think anybody wants to argue blonde hair originated among South Siberians speaking Iranian languages.

As for G how about Armenia, Azerbaijan, NW Iran? The paper on this was already discussed a while back. And Dienekes blogged about it. This is actual diversity because some clades of G seem to be almost restricted to the Caucasus area and surrounds whereas the majority of R1a clades are not restricted to Northwest Europe. The migrations associated with G are also in the right direction for G to have originated where it reaches its maximum diversity. Also sorry I'm not buying that the idea that numerous archeologists around the world all missed a migration from Europe to West Asia, Central Asia and South Asia during the Neolithic.

It is ridiculous to ignore archeological evidence and historical movements in favor of SNP diversity or limited (very very limited) ancient DNA samples. Everything should be looked at together.


I do think that just because Europe (especially Western Europe) has been extensively combed for ALL haplogroups there (present and past) and Central Asia and other regions have barely been scratched, should necessitate caution in strong convictions either way....

parasar
03-14-2014, 05:27 PM
This is just proof that diversity does not always help to pinpoint origin. :) It can arise from multiple waves of immigrants and clearly did in this case...

Not as far as I know. R1a1a appears in ancient DNA from cultures of Central Europe and Asia which have long been suspected to be vectors of Indo-European languages. The logical deduction therefore is that it spread with PIE on the whole, though some may have arrived in Lapland at an earlier date (c. 7000 BC) with ANE, seemingly spread from Central Asia with pressure flaking.

I was only distinguishing Western Europe from Eastern Europe, and I consider Eulau to be in the western part. And the only CTS4385* found in current populations is from further west of Eulau.

parasar
03-14-2014, 06:45 PM
So a small group of Alans and Scandinavians leaving their lineages in the UK makes it look like R1a originated in Western Europe? This is my point. You constantly ignore known migrations and then point to artificial diversity. This is the same illogical line of thinking that makes people think Z93+ originated in Asia as opposed to Eastern Europe. There is no Z93+ in the area where it likely originated. Can you prove that even one of those SNP's originated in Western Europe? Neither Z284+, Z280+, Z93+ are a good candidates for originating in Western Europe. (And who knows if L664+ didn't originate somewhere in Corded Ware either.) Neither reach any sort of frequency or diversity peak there and they can all be traced back to Eastern Europe. So the entire Z645+ branch has nothing to do with Western Europe. If the early split between Z645+ and CTS4385 actually mattered to you that would suggest a Central European origin for R1a not your suggested Western European one too. Sardinia has the same diversity too btw. Who cares? Why not also suggest Z645+ originated in Uzbekistan? After all you can find Z280+, M458+ and Z93+ there. That the Z280+ and M458+ samples found there can be counted on one hand shouldn't matter and are likely a remnant of Soviet times shouldn't matter. The oldest R1a has been found in Eastern Germany which is not too far from where Corded Ware originated (Southern Poland). And given that most scholars think Corded Ware was IE speaking it likely had a steppe influx at some point. The only reason that this sample is the oldest is because nobody has bothered to test Eastern Corded Ware, Yamnaya, Afanasievo, Dnieper Donets, Samara, and Khvalynsk sites or any sites in Central Asia such as Botai and Keltiminar (and maybe even Jeitun and Hissar). The oldest light haired sample is an Andronovo sample as Jean mentioned. I don't think anybody wants to argue blonde hair originated among South Siberians speaking Iranian languages.

As for G how about Armenia, Azerbaijan, NW Iran? The paper on this was already discussed a while back. And Dienekes blogged about it. This is actual diversity because some clades of G seem to be almost restricted to the Caucasus area and surrounds whereas the majority of R1a clades are not restricted to Northwest Europe. The migrations associated with G are also in the right direction for G to have originated where it reaches its maximum diversity. Also sorry I'm not buying that the idea that numerous archeologists around the world all missed a migration from Europe to West Asia, Central Asia and South Asia during the Neolithic.

It is ridiculous to ignore archeological evidence and historical movements in favor of SNP diversity or limited (very very limited) ancient DNA samples. Everything should be looked at together.
What archeological evidence? No one has heard blonde haired South Siberians speaking Iranian languages!
CTS4385 is completely missing in the Scandinavian settlements of England and in Iceland. Which Alan has been shown to be CTS4385? I don't know where Z645 originated, and I have made it clear in numerous posts that I think Z93 looks to have originated close to the Baikal/NW China region.

This is Michał's opinion on L664:

...
It depends on what you mean by origin. Based on the current distribution of all potential sub-branches, we can be nearly certain that L664 expanded from a place located somewhere on the North Sea coast. But if you mean the moment when the L664 (or pre-L664) lineage first arose (as a sister clade of Z645), it could have been nearly everywhere between Atlantic and Ural. Personally, I consider Eastern Europe as the most likely option, although I don’t have enough data to support it (and I know many people who are strongly convinced that Western or Central Europe are much more likely options)...



As far as G is concerned, are you indicating the Rootsi et al paper? http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v20/n12/full/ejhg201286a.html

We estimate that the geographic origin of hg G plausibly locates somewhere nearby eastern Anatolia, Armenia or western Iran.
That does not differ much from what I said even though that comment was in reference to mtDNA not Y-G: "I am not convinced of a movement to Europe (incld. Anatolia, Cappadocia) from the near east."

Plus G is the earliest major branch after F, making G-M201 about 50000years old. Its presence together with F* (possibly H-M3035) and I in Europe tells me that it is very old in Europe.


The Y tree here shows the phylogenetic relationships of G-Z724 and G-Z1903, comprising an important branch
most common in Europe, particularly Sardinia [2], but not discussed in prior studies. In addition, newly identified is
a branch (CTS4367, L1259, PF2970) joining the PF3146 and L30 subgroups. Also within haplogroup G, the Punjabi
G-L166 sample, HG02681, here shares four L166-specific SNPs with the 5,300-year-old G-L166 Iceman mummy
Ötzi, found in the Italian part of the Ötztal Alps [31] (data from ERP001144), and the same number with a subset of
G-L91 samples from Corsica, Sardinia or Tuscany, inferred to be also G-L166 [2].

http://biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/early/2013/11/22/000802.1.full.pdf

vettor
03-14-2014, 06:59 PM
Plus G is the earliest major branch after F, making G-M201 about 50000years old. Its presence together with F* (possibly H-M3035) and I in Europe tells me that it is very old in Europe.


http://biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/early/2013/11/22/000802.1.full.pdf

T and L are the same time span as G

with the new December 2013 haplogroups split tree information, question arises, does the ancient European results which have F* or K need to be retested for T and L marker.

T and L split with K still present

vettor
03-14-2014, 07:04 PM
Why would we expect L(xM,N) anywhere in Europe at any time? Looks like you are ignoring the archaeological and genetic evidence that persuaded most of us years ago that the L3 group who left Africa and whose descendants populated the rest of the globe did not go straight to the Levant. This is the picture I take from the data:

1623



well, there is a female who has tested with many sites, ( doug, 23andme, gedmatch and others) and is marker L3f1b...........is noted as 100% european, is from NW Italy and is white skin in colour.
There does seem to be about 2% of this marker in northern Italy by the few papers from 2013 of ancient people

her split

Kit Number: *******

Admix Results:

# Population Percent
1 Gedrosia 7.06
2 Siberian 0.00
3 Northwest_African 2.53
4 Southeast_Asian 0.00
5 Atlantic_Med 37.46
6 North_European 24.31
7 South_Asian 0.00
8 East_African 0.00
9 Southwest_Asian 5.22
10 East_Asian 0.00
11 Caucasus 23.43
12 Sub_Saharan 0.00


Pct. Calc. Option 2

0 Unable to determine 0.01%
1 N_Italian 49.92%
2 North_Italian 29.64%
3 Lezgins 6.64%
4 Mordovians 5.11%
5 Sardinian 2.82%
6 Hungarians 2.10%
7 Tajiks 1.65%
8 Mozabite 1.33%
9 Moroccan 0.40%
10 Kurd 0.11%

unsure if I can give her kit number

Jean M
03-14-2014, 08:06 PM
well, there is a female who has tested with many sites, ( doug, 23andme, gedmatch and others) and is marker L3f1b...........is noted as 100% european, is from NW Italy and is white skin in colour.

I just knew that someone would point out the scattering of mtDNA L in ancient and modern Europeans! :biggrin1:

Yes there are some, which we can guess arrived at different times. We can see some L2a1 in the the Near Eastern Neolithic, which probably arrived from North Africa as the greening of the Sahara made passage easier at the start of the Holocene. Then we find L2 in Copper Age Spain which may date from the Neolithic. L3f3 is more likely to have arrived in Europe with the Arabic slave trade, or (in Italy) from Roman Egypt.

None of these haplogroups was the progenitor of M and N and hence the rest of the non-African mtDNA haplogroups.

newtoboard
03-14-2014, 09:13 PM
What archeological evidence? No one has heard blonde haired South Siberians speaking Iranian languages!
CTS4385 is completely missing in the Scandinavian settlements of England and in Iceland. Which Alan has been shown to be CTS4385? I don't know where Z645 originated, and I have made it clear in numerous posts that I think Z93 looks to have originated close to the Baikal/NW China region.

This is Michał's opinion on L664:



As far as G is concerned, are you indicating the Rootsi et al paper? http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v20/n12/full/ejhg201286a.html

That does not differ much from what I said even though that comment was in reference to mtDNA not Y-G: "I am not convinced of a movement to Europe (incld. Anatolia, Cappadocia) from the near east."

Plus G is the earliest major branch after F, making G-M201 about 50000years old. Its presence together with F* (possibly H-M3035) and I in Europe tells me that it is very old in Europe.


http://biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/early/2013/11/22/000802.1.full.pdf

As Jean pointed out earlier the oldest sample that has been tested and shown to have been light haired individual is an Andronovo sample from South Siberia. Since the oldest R1a being found in Germany supports your Western European origin for R1a theory why not argue blonde hair originated in South Siberia among Iranian speakers. Let's be fair after all.

Who said anything about Scandavians and CTS4385? But it seems likely they brought Z284. Combine that with the likely Z93+ connection with the Alans and a significant portion of the SNP diversity has gone away. And I seriously hope nobody is even going to try to argue that Z280+ or M458+ originated anywhere other than Central or Eastern Europe. So that effectively removes any association of any subclade of Z645+ and Z645+ with Western Europe. Given one clade has an Central-East European/Asian distribution and the other has a Western European distribution I have no idea why that would place R1a's homeland in Western Europe. The archeology would probably suggest otherwise (Corded Ware to Western Europe but of course ancient DNA should be used before reaching this conclusion). There is nothing that makes CTS4385 more important than Z645+ so no reason to assume a Western European homeland for R1a.

Also there is nothing to suggest Z93+ originated near NW China/Lake Baikal. This was a region settled from the steppe. Hopefully someone will test those Andronovo samples soon so we can stop placing Z93+ in all sorts of places that just don't fit and start placing in it the Don region. Because those Andronovo samples have their origin there and if they are Z93+ then that would make an origin of Z93+ in NW China very unlikely.

As far as L664+ Michal's opinion doesn't support your case. All I said is nothing excludes CTS4385 and L664 from having originated with Corded Ware which is a culture which likely had a steppe influx contributing to it and whose earliest expression seems to have been in Southern Poland. So we are not sure where L664+ originated because it could have been anywhere within the Corded Ware horizon although its distribution suggests a region towards the North Sea rather than the Urals (Central Europe seems most likely).

As far as H lineages can you actually show there are any in Europe? Can you even show there is F in Europe? As far as I know those results are from a while ago. From a time where people also thought F was common in South Asia and those turned out to be nothing more than H2 and H3 lineages for the most part. Those need to be retested.

Why are we bringing up mtDNA? You think the Neolithic was spread via the migration of women? Why doesn't mtDNA support a Asia to Europe migration? What supports the various mtDNA lineages people have associated with the Neolithic originating in Europe? And what supports any sort of migration from Europe to Asia in the Neolithic? Once again how did archeologists miss all this? If ydna I is so old in Europe than obviously this migration should have brought I to Asia as far as the Tarim and India. And did the borders of continents change recently? Because I have no idea why Europe includes Anatolia and Cappadocia (not even sure what this means anyways since Anatolia historically refers to the portion of Asian Turkey west of the Euphrates so Cappadocia is in Anatolia). The cultures of Taurus where the Neolithic originated were not very different from the cultures of the Zagros which also played an equally important role in the Neolithic. And your earlier statement that you can't tell people on both sides of the Bosphous apart is without any merit. As far as I know you can tell Turks apart from Greeks and Bulgarians given Bulgarians and Greeks are more Mediterranean and Northern shifted than Turks who have more of the West Asian component and are closer to the people of the Caucasus, Iranian plateau and Northern Mesopotamia than any European is.

Palisto
03-14-2014, 10:42 PM
Diversity and ancient DNA are two different forms of evidence.
For R1a1, England and its north sea periphery show maximum SNP diversity and the earliest confirmed R1a1 is indeed from western Europe and looks to be an early split.

Which place in West Asia has the "real" diversity of G?

R1a1 in England does show high SNP and STR diversity but it is not one big star-like cluster, i.e. it does not have one single origin but it is based on multiple migrations.

parasar
03-14-2014, 11:03 PM
in England does show high SNP and STR diversity but it is not one big star-like cluster, i.e. it does not have one single origin but it is based on multiple migrations.

Yes I agree with that premise in general.

alan
03-15-2014, 12:03 AM
What I meant was that the model of fair skin selection only beginning in the Neolithic and only slowly reaching modern levels over many millennia now has just about enough hard data to make it look likely to be correct.


Now? This is not a recent idea. Geneticists have been in agreement for a long time on this. It is so glaringly obvious that the cline of dark skin is correlated with latitude across the globe that you really can't miss it. Darwin noticed it. I have loads of papers on this which are available to you.

Here is a video of Nina Jablonski on the topic. http://www.uctv.tv/shows/Darwins-Birthday-Suit-The-Evolution-of-Human-Skin-Pigmentation-16926

alan
03-15-2014, 12:16 AM
That doesnt sound likely. Unetice is largely a post-beaker culture so beaker cannot have borrowed mtDNA from Unetice. It is possible that beaker in central Europe could have borrowed from corded ware and other cultures that existed at the time of their arrival in central Europe c. 2600BC. Culturally Unetice is very clearly beaker derived so I suspect that it featured beaker male lines but had come to marry within a central European mtDNA pool. After all if marriages were often at elite level done for alliances etc it would be advantageous at some point to start marrying beyond the beaker network, particularly towards the edges of the beaker zone in east-central Europe where Carpathian metals may have been sought.


Well, the Unetice mtDNA actually has some very distinct traits in the context of ancient European mtDNA diversity, like high U, relatively low H, as well as the presence of U2 and R. The Kurgan mtDNA shows the same traits, so it's not a coincidence that they cluster together.

Bell Beaker mtDNA is very different, so they probably got their U2e by swapping women with the Unetice folks in Central Europe.

http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p217/dpwes/Wilde_Brandt_mtDNA_PCA.png~original

http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p217/dpwes/Wilde_Brandt_mtDNA.png~original

Generalissimo
03-15-2014, 12:39 AM
Culturally Unetice is very clearly beaker derived so I suspect that it featured beaker male lines but had come to marry within a central European mtDNA pool.

Bell Beaker first overlapped with Corded Ware, and then when Corded Ware disappeared it overlapped with Unetice. There's a description of the various cultures of prehistoric eastern Germany in the Brandt et al. supp info.

Link (http://www.sciencemag.org/content/342/6155/257.abstract)

In terms of both mtDNA and tooth morphology, Unetice is actually more eastern than Corded Ware, and clearly different from Bell Beaker. This new Kurgan mtDNA suggests that Unetice was derived from the Kurgan cultures of Eastern Europe, at least maternally.

alan
03-15-2014, 01:11 AM
A maternal link would make sense because the culture itself is very beaker inspired and it is very hard to believe that would happen if there was a not a strong beaker element too - presumably on the male line. I do think that after an initial period of possible marriage networks tending to be between beaker groups they must have moved on to marriage with other local cultures. I think the detectable but rather hazy influence of Yamanaya on beaker would make a lot of sense if it was coming in from the female side. The DNA evidence pretty well agrees with that although more yDNA would confirm it. If I remember correctly it looked like the beaker folk at Kromsdorf were marrying women from local or eastern origins rather than importing wives. I have a hunch that elite marriage patterns (its really the elite only we see in beaker burials IMO) were somehow linked to a complex shifting network of trade alliances. Yamnaya groups controlled the Carpathian ore area around the time beakers started to penetrate into the eastern half of central Europe. This was an ore source also used by Corded Ware peoples and there may have been other pre-beaker sources in central Germany. So, there are all sorts of alliances the beaker people may have wanted to strike up in central Europe.




Bell Beaker first overlapped with Corded Ware, and then when Corded Ware disappeared it overlapped with Unetice. There's a description of the various cultures of prehistoric eastern Germany in the Brandt et al. supp info.

Link (http://www.sciencemag.org/content/342/6155/257.abstract)

In terms of both mtDNA and tooth morphology, Unetice is actually more eastern than Corded Ware, and clearly different from Bell Beaker. This new Kurgan mtDNA suggests that Unetice was derived from the Kurgan cultures of Eastern Europe, at least maternally.

alan
03-15-2014, 01:21 AM
Talking of Unetice, this contents page looks very interesting and is very new - late last year

http://www.academia.edu/3515972/Population_Dynamics_Diet_and_Migrations_of_the_Une tice_Culture_in_Poland

nuadha
03-15-2014, 04:00 AM
Well, the Unetice mtDNA actually has some very distinct traits in the context of ancient European mtDNA diversity, like high U, relatively low H, as well as the presence of U2 and R. The Kurgan mtDNA shows the same traits, so it's not a coincidence that they cluster together.

Bell Beaker mtDNA is very different, so they probably got their U2e by swapping women with the Unetice folks in Central Europe.

http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p217/dpwes/Wilde_Brandt_mtDNA_PCA.png~original

http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p217/dpwes/Wilde_Brandt_mtDNA.png~original

They were bell beaker nonetheless. Not attributing u2e to bell beakers because the women were "swapped" rather than "migrated" is a semantical statement that is not logically valid. It would be like saying swiss people live in the mountains, then finding swiss who live in the valleys/ plains and concluding that they aren't really swiss.

thus far, the adna of frequency u2e doesn't dramatically increase just to the east bell beakers so there's no reason to expect a slow bleeding out process rather than a quick movement of some u2e women. I suspect the later, unless the u2e a kromsdorf was actually a remnant of the local hunter gatherers.

speaking of bell beaker, I'm surprised nobody has mentioned the closeness of bell beaker, neolithic Basque, and southern hunter gatherers. the last inclusion was a surprise to me. of course this does reinforce a west to east movement.

nuadha
03-15-2014, 04:06 AM
The genetic evidence is now overwhelming that the LBK farmers were descendants of incomers from the Near East. They were not descended from Mesolithic people of Europe, as shown by ancient mtDNA, Y-DNA and autosomal DNA.

It really is time to move on.

we don't know where they came from or what mesolithic southern Europeans looked like. Only if you subscribe to the paradigm that neolithic migrant equals middle eastern migrant would you have certainty.

Generalissimo
03-15-2014, 04:09 AM
speaking of bell beaker, I'm surprised nobody has mentioned the closeness of bell beaker, neolithic Basque, and southern hunter gatherers. the last inclusion was a surprise to me. of course this does reinforce a west to east movement.

It's very clear what's happening on that PCA. CEM (modern Central Europeans, which essentially means most Europeans) are a mixture of Kurgans (aka. Unetice folk), Bell Beakers from Iberia and remnants of Neolithic farmers.

So the question is, what types or Y-hgs did the Bell Beakers carry?

nuadha
03-15-2014, 04:18 AM
It's very clear what's happening on that PCA. CEM (modern Central Europeans, which essentially means most Europeans) are a mixture of Kurgans (aka. Unetice folk), Bell Beakers from Iberia and remnants of Neolithic farmers.

So the question is, what types or Y-hgs did the Bell Beakers carry?

I still think r1b, at least by the emergence of the eastern bell beakers.

Do you think r1b came to the west with ane?

edit: BTW, this paper was a massive disappointment. Hasn't Wilde been sitting on ydna for the last 5 years and with all the adna she has she paints a somewhat vague picture of light skin evolution in eastern Europe.

Generalissimo
03-15-2014, 04:32 AM
Do you think r1b came to the west with ane?

I don't know what to think anymore. It seems that ANE was missing among pre-Indo-European Iberians, because Basques and even southern French can be modeled as having 0% ANE. But that doesn't preclude an extreme founder effect among the pre-Proto-Bell Beakers from somewhere in the east, in which the only ANE marker left was R1b.


edit: BTW, this paper was a massive disappointment. Hasn't Wilde been sitting on ydna for the last 5 years and with all the adna she has she paints a somewhat vague picture of light skin evolution in eastern Europe.

The paper was fertilizer material and a waste of funding. But aren't we used to that by now?

parasar
03-15-2014, 04:43 AM
As Jean pointed out earlier the oldest sample that has been tested and shown to have been light haired individual is an Andronovo sample from South Siberia. Since the oldest R1a being found in Germany supports your Western European origin for R1a theory why not argue blonde hair originated in South Siberia among Iranian speakers. Let's be fair after all.


First, I don't even know that there was something like Iranian at that time. Second, we don't know their language.



Combine that with the likely Z93+ connection with the Alans and a significant portion of the SNP diversity has gone away.

Which Alan is Z93+? Ossetia=Alania, right? https://www.familytreedna.com/public/Ossetian/default.aspx?section=ysnp



Also there is nothing to suggest Z93+ originated near NW China/Lake Baikal. This was a region settled from the steppe. Hopefully someone will test those Andronovo samples soon so we can stop placing Z93+ in all sorts of places that just don't fit and start placing in it the Don region. Because those Andronovo samples have their origin there and if they are Z93+ then that would make an origin of Z93+ in NW China very unlikely.


http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p217/dpwes/Ystr.jpg




Why are we bringing up mtDNA? You think the Neolithic was spread via the migration of women?


Because all the Neolithic finds from near east as far I know have only been tested for mtDNA and L(xM, N) was present in them. So I had a metric to compare near-eastern neolithic mtDNA and LBK. Once we have neolithic near-eastern Y, the Y can be compared.



Because I have no idea why Europe includes Anatolia and Cappadocia (not even sure what this means anyways since Anatolia historically refers to the portion of Asian Turkey west of the Euphrates so Cappadocia is in Anatolia.)

We get the old name Yona for Greeks from the Anatolian region. Cappadocians were more akin to Assyrians, I think, than to Greeks, so I mentioned that region separately. The nearby Armenians were also related to the Balkan Phyrigians.



And your earlier statement that you can't tell people on both sides of the Bosphous apart is without any merit. As far as I know you can tell Turks apart from Greeks and Bulgarians given Bulgarians and Greeks are more Mediterranean and Northern shifted than Turks who have more of the West Asian component and are closer to the people of the Caucasus, Iranian plateau and Northern Mesopotamia than any European is.


When I visited those areas (western Turkey, Greece) I could see a difference, but the perceived difference was mainly cultural. I was under the impression that for the most part if you were a Christian, you were considered a Greek, if Muslim a Turk.

Humanist
03-15-2014, 04:57 AM
It's very clear what's happening on that PCA. CEM (modern Central Europeans, which essentially means most Europeans) are a mixture of Kurgans (aka. Unetice folk), Bell Beakers from Iberia and remnants of Neolithic farmers.

When I had run a cluster analysis based on the frequencies several months ago (http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?914-Minoans-were-European&p=15881&viewfull=1#post15881) (not including the most recent data), this is what the data appeared to show, in my opinion:


[A]t least three modern European populations [Greeks, Slovaks, and French], are most similar to Bell Beakers, Iron Age Spaniards, and Urnfielders.


http://i1178.photobucket.com/albums/x372/paulgiva78/passover/cluster_analysis_adna.jpg

parasar
03-15-2014, 07:22 AM
Do you think r1b came to the west with ane?


Y-R and ANE is one of the better Y - autosomal correlations, IMO. So much so, that if MA1's folk were not progenitors of the Indo-European languages, then there is a chance that Y-R adopted IE rather than spread it.

Generalissimo
03-15-2014, 09:03 AM
So much so, that if MA1's folk were not progenitors of the Indo-European languages, then there is a chance that Y-R adopted IE rather than spread it.

Is there a third option? :biggrin1:

Jean M
03-15-2014, 10:58 AM
Only if you subscribe to the paradigm that neolithic migrant equals middle eastern migrant would you have certainty.

We know that the Neolithic came from the Near East, as explained in an earlier post (http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?2299-quot-Dark-pigmentation-of-Eneolithic-and-Bronze-Age-kurgan-groups-from-eastern-Europe-quot&p=33828&viewfull=1#post33828).

The first colony to move westwards entered Cyprus. Cyprus was not settled in the Mesolithic. So we can be absolutely certain that this was a colony from the Near East. They brought domesticated crops and animals with an origin in the Near East. From Cyprus they moved to Crete. The same applies. Crete was not settled in the Mesolithic. From there they entered the Greek mainland, which at the time was virtually empty of humans. Hunter-gatherers had moved elsewhere. There is a big gap between them leaving and farmers arriving.

There were some foragers elsewhere in southern Europe, for example the fisher-folk of Lepenski Vir, on the banks of the Danube in the Iron Gates gorge, who adopted farming after farmers (who were a clearly distinct population) arrived in their region. They took farming wives. So they had a good opportunity to pass on some of their Y-DNA to later generations. I would guess they are one source of modern Y-DNA I2. The major Y-DNA of the early European farmers was G, which pretty clearly originated in the heartland of the Neolithic - the only place today where rare basal clades of G survive.

Jean M
03-15-2014, 11:04 AM
So much so, that if MA1's folk were not progenitors of the Indo-European languages, then there is a chance that Y-R adopted IE rather than spread it.

MA1 lived a long, long time before PIE. PIE developed in a population which appears (from the end result) to have been heavy in Y-DNA R. If Alan and I are adding things up correctly and R1 travelled westwards with pressure-flaking, then Palaeo-Laplandic could provide a clue to what language they spoke before they encountered the peoples already settled north of the Black and Caspian Seas.

newtoboard
03-15-2014, 11:11 AM
First, I don't even know that there was something like Iranian at that time. Second, we don't know their language.


Well its unlikely it is Indo-Aryan so it has to be Iranian or Indo-Iranian. The only other possibility is Uralic. The point is let's be fair in our logic. Since the oldest R1a (despite almost no aDNA from Eastern Europe or Central Asia) coming from Western Europe (actually more like Central Europe) is evidence for its origin there then obviously blond hair originated in South Siberia.


Which Alan is Z93+? Ossetia=Alania, right? https://www.familytreedna.com/public/Ossetian/default.aspx?section=ysnp

No Ossetia does not equal Alania. This is one of the biggest myths ever. The original homeland of the Alans was somewhere in Western Kazakhstan. These migrants later expanded into Europe and the Caucasus. But even Ossetia is not a good representation for the Kingdom of Alania that was located in the Caucasus because the Kingdom of Alania was significantly larger than Ossetia, Ossetia is located at the edge of the Kingdom of Alania and in the location furthest away from the steppe homeland of the Alans and part of Ossetia is even outside the borders of the Kingdom of Alania. Not to mention the Mongols destroyed the Kingdom of Alania and we have no idea how this affected their ydna but the impact could have been massive given the low population densities of the North Caucasus. That the majority of Ossetians belong to a young G2a1 subcluster exlcusive to them and their neigbors should tell us there is a lot we don't know. Those Kurgans in the Caucasus need to be tested.



http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p217/dpwes/Ystr.jpg


STR's. The same STR relationships which caused people to establish a relationship between Scandinavian+ Kazakh R1a and Polish+Indian R1a. Not even sure why you are using this. If you actually think this is a legitimate source of proof then this throws out your NW China origin. And if you want to be fair then a Central European homeland for Z93+ should be considered too.

Are you saying that Z93+ originated near Lake Baikal because South Siberian R1a has more matches near South Siberia than in the Eastern Europe steppe (which has seen considerable population replacement)? Well that doesn't really prove anything. I guess that this logic works if you ignore the fact that these South Siberian cultures had intrusive Western elements and use outdated STR makers.





Because all the Neolithic finds from near east as far I know have only been tested for mtDNA and L(xM, N) was present in them. So I had a metric to compare near-eastern neolithic mtDNA and LBK. Once we have neolithic near-eastern Y, the Y can be compared.


Once again a double standard. Why should this be considered when we know ydna I existed in Mesolithic Europe but doesn't exist in West Asia for the most part? As far as I know the Neolithic was likely to be more spread by men or a mixture of men and women. Why is mtDNA more important than yDNA? I don't get how you determine the importance of things. For some reason CTS4385 is more important for the origin of R1a than Z645+. And now mtDNA is more important than yDNA. Why? If anything most population movements are male meditated. Plus who is to say mtDNA L was ever common in the ancient West Asia? If it was rare in West Asia to begin with then we might not ever find it in European neolithic samples. Traveling from West Asia to Central Europe would have given neolithic farmers multiple chances to pick up different mtDNA lineages and have mtDNA L diluted out of their gene pool. Plus how do we know Neolithic farmers even carried L? Where is the ancient Near Eastern mtDNA? Most of it is from the Levant and very little or none is from the Zagros-Taurus-North-Mesopotamia-South Caucasus region. There is no reason to assume those populations were the same back then when there are massive differences between Levantines and Northern West Asians today.



When I visited those areas (western Turkey, Greece) I could see a difference, but the perceived difference was mainly cultural. I was under the impression that for the most part if you were a Christian, you were considered a Greek, if Muslim a Turk.


That's great. I was talking about a difference actually supported by the various admixture runs of these populations. Turks don't cluster with Greeks and Bulgarians as far as I know. And they differ in yDNA as well.

newtoboard
03-15-2014, 11:20 AM
MA1 lived a long, long time before PIE. PIE developed in a population which appears (from the end result) to have been heavy in Y-DNA R. If Alan and I are adding things up correctly and R1 travelled westwards with pressure-flaking, then Palaeo-Laplandic could provide a clue to what language they spoke before they encountered the peoples already settled north of the Black and Caspian Seas.

Interesting. I guess yDNA I would the best candidate for being settled north of Black and Caspian Sea (at least Black Sea, it wouldn't surprise me if the people North of the Caspian were more similar to Mesolithic Central Asians and carried something unexpected like R2).

alan
03-15-2014, 12:20 PM
Well we do know the two out of two (albeit the same site) ancient beaker people tested for yDNA successfully were M269 derived. This is where the idea of a consistent pan-European beaker male lineage that tracks with the pottery chronology seems unlikely to me. R1b clearly spread east to west in post-early Neolithic times. Certainly that is what phylogeny and variance of subclades is telling us and so far the ancient DNA agrees with this.

So the question is do we go for the virtually invisible migration to Iberia from eastern Europe in time for the first beaker pots there c. 2900BC or do we assume that beaker and R1b connected with each other somewhere less extreme-west? I think there is not enough data to decide although I do find it pretty unconvincing that the first person who made a beaker pot in Iberia c. 2800BC was R1b in the absence of strongly convincing evidence of an eastward migration from from the eastern European zone of upstream R1b into Iberia prior to that. For me the earliest spread of western beaker traits 'the proto-beaker package' that ran from Iberia to Italy and the SW Alps are probably female skills (textiles, pottery) and something to do with alliances relating to obtaining Iberian copper at a time when the mines in Liguria etc are known to have been drying up. They needed copper not the skills in metalworking and mining which they had had anyway since c. 3400BC.

I think the women moving as part of elite alliances related to metal supply makes sense in the early beaker phase. It also fits the way beaker pots essentially appear in and blend into pre-existing traditions of burial etc and dont radically alter them as can be seen in the two famous Alpine burial complexes.

So to me there may have been a number of pre-beaker copper age male lines that took on beaker traits through these networks. Until more beaker ancient DNA is available I would still hold the belief that R1b is unlikely to have joined with beaker initially as far west as Iberia. The only hard evidence we have is it was present at Kromsdorf c. 2500-2600BC. The softer evidence is modern R1b geography-phylogeny which points towards the Balkans and adjacent as the oldest R1b area in 'old Europe'. The interface between beaker pot and R1b seems most likely to me to have happened well east of Iberia and not further west than the Alps/Italy/ south central Europe on current evidence.


It's very clear what's happening on that PCA. CEM (modern Central Europeans, which essentially means most Europeans) are a mixture of Kurgans (aka. Unetice folk), Bell Beakers from Iberia and remnants of Neolithic farmers.

So the question is, what types or Y-hgs did the Bell Beakers carry?

alan
03-15-2014, 01:20 PM
I dont think it makes sense to speak about the Mesolithic and beakers together as they are completely different periods. Mesolithic groups just didnt remain hidden bidding their time for millenia to reemerge as beaker people complete with metal expertise. They had to have some history in between.

I think one problem is taking the idea of a single beaker people too far. Yes it was a network with many shared traits but it was also a very diverse one with major differences between their burial customs, major difference in physical types/craniology and a very strong tendency to insert some new beaker ideas into the existing traditions of the locality. I think while there is clearly a human vector in the spread, we can go too far in seeing it as a uniform phenomenon in terms of y DNA.

Some groups were probably 'beakerised' by contact and marriages if indeed this is not the main driving force of the spread of beaker traits. Once beakerised other male lines that were unrelated to those who made beakers elsewhere may have gone on to be expansive, particularly into areas where metal supply or mining was closer to virgin territory. We must not lose sight of the fact that metallurgical skills and mining of a level at least as high as beaker period metal existed in pre-beaker times across much of central and Med. Europe. The attraction in temperate Europe of linking into the beaker network may have been strongest in areas peripheral to the established metal sources. There may have been multiple variants on joining the beaker network

1. South France - local inland pre-beaker copper users hogged their metal and did not trade. This could have left a vacum on the south coast of France for traders from Iberia to supply a demand. French archaeologists do look at this as a migration.

2. Liguria/western Alps- local mines and metallurgy strongly existed and networks but there mines dried up by 2600BC. They may have sought metal but not settlers from Iberia and southern France - possibly females alliance movement only. This fits the continuity seen between beaker and pre-beaker at Aosda etc.

3. Csepel- surely this has something to do with a settlement from further west of traders forming a link to Carpathian metals. Unlikely to be Iberians IMO as they hardly needed to head to the Carpathians to get metal or to sell it to people who already had plenty.

4. NW Europe - practically virgin territory for metal supply and mining. Migration of someone who already knew metallurgy is certain. However, it should be noted that a great deal of Europe had pre-beaker metal knowledge and so there are a lot of areas where metallurgists could come from. Analysis of pre-beaker metallurgy in central Europe used by Corded Ware and others showed beaker metal was no different in skill and type to pre-beaker.

5. Central Europe-not clear. Many options. A lot of pre-beaker metal came from the Carpathians but there may have been some sources in central Germany etc. However, a lot of people would have been relatively periperal to metal supply.

So, in summary beaker may have been a mix of male lineages and sometimes beakerised groups must have been involved.


we don't know where they came from or what mesolithic southern Europeans looked like. Only if you subscribe to the paradigm that neolithic migrant equals middle eastern migrant would you have certainty.

ADW_1981
03-15-2014, 03:51 PM
Y-R and ANE is one of the better Y - autosomal correlations, IMO. So much so, that if MA1's folk were not progenitors of the Indo-European languages, then there is a chance that Y-R adopted IE rather than spread it.

At least with respect to R1b, I don't think the growth and spread of these male progenitors closely resembled MA-1 at all. Keep in mind, he lived 24,000 years ago and only shows a small resemblance to the surrounding Russian populations today. The PIE speakers are more likely to have had at least an even distribution of EEF/WHG/ANE, perhaps even a majority of EEF due to the timeframe in history.

parasar
03-15-2014, 03:52 PM
No Ossetia does not equal Alania. This is one of the biggest myths ever. The original homeland of the Alans was somewhere in Western Kazakhstan. These migrants later expanded into Europe and the Caucasus. But even Ossetia is not a good representation for the Kingdom of Alania that was located in the Caucasus because the Kingdom of Alania was significantly larger than Ossetia, Ossetia is located at the edge of the Kingdom of Alania and in the location furthest away from the steppe homeland of the Alans and part of Ossetia is even outside the borders of the Kingdom of Alania. Not to mention the Mongols destroyed the Kingdom of Alania and we have no idea how this affected their ydna but the impact could have been massive given the low population densities of the North Caucasus. That the majority of Ossetians belong to a young G2a1 subcluster exlcusive to them and their neigbors should tell us there is a lot we don't know. Those Kurgans in the Caucasus need to be tested.

Really, that would news to the Ossets!





STR's. The same STR relationships which caused people to establish a relationship between Scandinavian+ Kazakh R1a and Polish+Indian R1a. Not even sure why you are using this. If you actually think this is a legitimate source of proof then this throws out your NW China origin. And if you want to be fair then a Central European homeland for Z93+ should be considered too.

Because now with SNP resolution the matches make sense for Baikal (Z93) but not for Europe (Z283). The European STR matches are coincidental while the Baikal ones are not.
STRs still provide good resolution within subsets.



Are you saying that Z93+ originated near Lake Baikal because South Siberian R1a has more matches near South Siberia than in the Eastern Europe steppe (which has seen considerable population replacement)? Well that doesn't really prove anything. I guess that this logic works if you ignore the fact that these South Siberian cultures had intrusive Western elements and use outdated STR makers.


I can't pinpoint Baikal as the source point, but somewhere in that region - Baikal/NW China/Khakasia.





Once again a double standard. Why should this be considered when we know ydna I existed in Mesolithic Europe but doesn't exist in West Asia for the most part?

The flip side is J. Disparate distributions happen. Plus we do not have Mesolithic Y evidence from the Balkans and Greece.



That's great. I was talking about a difference actually supported by the various admixture runs of these populations. Turks don't cluster with Greeks and Bulgarians as far as I know. And they differ in yDNA as well.

Any supporting evidence? We have to remember the Turks of Turkey have a ~10-20% east Asiatic element.

parasar
03-15-2014, 04:03 PM
At least with respect to R1b, I don't think the growth and spread of these male progenitors closely resembled MA-1 at all. Keep in mind, he lived 24,000 years ago and only shows a small resemblance to the surrounding Russian populations today. The PIE speakers are more likely to have had at least an even distribution of EEF/WHG/ANE, perhaps even a majority of EEF due to the timeframe in history.

Yes I would agree with that.

What the PIE speakers' composition looked like would depend on the timeframe. If proto-PIE is 20000-10000 years old then it could have been just ANE or just EEF driven. If later, then I think EEF/ANE combo is more likely.

newtoboard
03-15-2014, 04:13 PM
Really, that would news to the Ossets!

Really? So I provide a bunch of facts and your only answer is that can't be true because that would disappoint Ossetians. Well there are a lot of South Asians who probably think Aryans originated in India and Iranians who think Iranian speakers originated in West Asia. I'm sure the Eastern European origin of Indo-Iranian speakers would disappoint them and be news to them. There was nothing I said that can be disputed. Alans originated on the steppe and the Ossetian language has heavy influences from native Caucasian languages. And I hope nobody suggests that the Ossetian language somehow originated in the middle of the Caucasus while the rest of the languages of the NE Iranian branch were spoken on the steppe between Hungary and Mongolia, South Siberia and East-Central Asia.


Because now with SNP resolution the matches make sense for Baikal (Z93) but not for Europe (Z283). The European STR matches are coincidental while the Baikal ones are not.
STRs still provide good resolution within subsets.

All this is doing is coming the STR values of ancient South Siberian R1a with modern R1a. Well no it is not a surprise that ancient South Siberian R1a was best preserved in South Siberia. This has nothing to do with the origins of Z93+. That South Siberian R1a is from what time frame? 1800 BC? I recall you believing in way overinflated dates for Z93+ (something close to 15-20K years) and now results from 1800 BC or later tell us about the origins of Z93+.




I can't pinpoint Baikal as the source point, but somewhere in that region - Baikal/NW China/Khakasia.

It is just funny how you keep on adding a new region each time. And all of these regions were settled from the West. Unless archeologists are all wrong and you have some new information that you are not sharing.




The flip side is J. Disparate distributions happen. Plus we do not have Mesolithic Y evidence from the Balkans and Greece.

There is more J in Europe than I in West Asia. Well I seems to have had a pan European presence during the Mesolithic imo so most likely any migration from Europe to West Asia through the Bosphorus would bring I to West Asia. Whereas the distributions of J could have had nothing to do with G. They didn't necessarily have to overlap. They could have been separate. We can even see this today to some degree in the South Caucasus where G reaches a peak among Kartvelian speaking groups and J reaches a peak among some NE Caucasian speaking groups.




Any supporting evidence? We have to remember the Turks of Turkey have a ~10-20% east Asiatic element.

As far as I know the average of the East Eurasian components is closer to 6-8%. The local peak of these various East Eurasian components is in Central Anatolia. I think Pontic Greeks don't cluster with Agean Greeks or Bulgarians much less Turks. I haven't seen an admixture run where that has been the case.

newtoboard
03-15-2014, 04:15 PM
Yes I would agree with that.

What the PIE speakers' composition looked like would depend on the timeframe. If proto-PIE is 20000-10000 years old then it could have been just ANE or just EEF driven. If later, then I think EEF/ANE combo is more likely.

As far as I know PIE is dated to sometime between 4500-3500 BC. There is no real chance PIE is 10000 years old much less 20000.

Jean M
03-15-2014, 04:45 PM
If proto-PIE is 20000-10000 years old .

There is no such thing as proto-PIE. PIE = Proto-Indo-European. PIE = the language spoken immediately prior to the break-away of groups who developed daughter languages. In other words, it is the language that can be reconstructed from the daughter languages. It can be dated by its vocabulary to c. 4000 BC at the earliest.

Naturally it developed from an earlier language. Perhaps you meant pre-PIE? If so we can't date it, because it is a process of development that ended up as PIE. We have no way to fix it in time, because we cannot be sure that PIE fits into a larger language family, so that we might be able to date splits from it. Some linguists have tried to fit it into a putative family Nostratic (generally Indo-European, Uralic, and Altaic), but not everyone is convinced.

parasar
03-15-2014, 04:50 PM
Really? So I provide a bunch of facts and your only answer is that can't be true because that would disappoint Ossetians. Well there are a lot of South Asians who probably think Aryans originated in India and Iranians who think Iranian speakers originated in West Asia. I'm sure the Eastern European origin of Indo-Iranian speakers would disappoint them and be news to them. There was nothing I said that can be disputed. Alans originated on the steppe and the Ossetian language has heavy influences from native Caucasian languages. And I hope nobody suggests that the Ossetian language somehow originated in the middle of the Caucasus while the rest of the languages of the NE Iranian branch were spoken on the steppe between Hungary and Mongolia, South Siberia and East-Central Asia.

Facts or opinions? I saw no references, no links, no evidence. I recall you used to argue vehemently against an Eastern European origin of Indo-Iranian and argue for a Asian steppe one. What happened?


As far as I know PIE is dated to sometime between 4500-3500 BC. There is no real chance PIE is 10000 years old much less 20000.

I hope you noticed I said "proto-PIE"

parasar
03-15-2014, 04:58 PM
There is no such thing as proto-PIE. PIE = Proto-Indo-European. PIE = the language spoken immediately prior to the break-away of groups who developed daughter languages. In other words, it is the language that can be reconstructed from the daughter languages. It can be dated by its vocabulary to c. 4000 BC at the earliest.

Naturally it developed from an earlier language. Perhaps you meant pre-PIE? If so we can't date it, because it is a process of development that ended up as PIE. We have no way to fix it in time, because we cannot be sure that PIE fits into a larger language family, so that we might be able to date splits from it. Some linguists have tried to fit it into a putative family Nostratic (generally Indo-European, Uralic, and Altaic), but not everyone is convinced.

Frankly I don't like that term either since proto-proto looks meaningless. I think of the term as an earlier level of sharing. Anthony calls it "pre-proto" https://archive.org/details/horsewheelandlanguage
pg 91.

Colin Renfrew and others call it Indo-Hittite and date it to 9000ybp. pg 148 Anthony dates pre-proto IE to the end of the last ice age and calls it the language of the foragers.

Humanist
03-15-2014, 05:03 PM
Turks don't cluster with Greeks and Bulgarians as far as I know. And they differ in yDNA as well.


Any supporting evidence? We have to remember the Turks of Turkey have a ~10-20% east Asiatic element.

parasar, but you just provided the evidence, no? There is no reason why I should be more similar to Greeks and Europeans (e.g. English, French) than Turks, unless Anatolian Turks have absorbed various "eastern" elements over the last 1000+ years (i.e. Turkic).

http://i1096.photobucket.com/albums/g326/dok101/Faces/popres_europe_hum.png

http://www.anthrogenica.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=1571&d=1394287552

newtoboard
03-15-2014, 05:17 PM
Facts or opinions? I saw no references, no links, no evidence. I recall you used to argue vehemently against an Eastern European origin of Indo-Iranian and argue for a Asian steppe one. What happened?



I hope you noticed I said "proto-PIE"


There have been plenty of discussions on the matter. You have chosen to ignore them. Have you read anything on the matter such as "The Origin of the Indo-Iranians" by E.E Kuz'mina? How about Mallory's work on the Indo-Iranian character of various steppe cultues? Have you read anything by Jaska on the early Indo-Iranian borrowings in Uralic languages? There is no other homeland for Indo-Iranians than the North Caspian steppes. I was uninformed on the roots of the Andronovo culture in Yamnaya-Poltavka. The identity of Indo-Iranians might have formed on the Asian steppe (and likewise for Tocharians in East-Central Asia) but there roots were in Eastern Europe. It is also illogical to assume IE groups originated out of nowhere in Asia.

It is irrelevant what I used to believe. I am far more informed on the matter now than I was then.

Humanist
03-15-2014, 05:19 PM
It is irrelevant what I used to believe. I am far more informed on the matter now than I was then.

I will applaud that.

parasar
03-15-2014, 05:36 PM
There have been plenty of discussions on the matter. You have chosen to ignore them. Have you read anything on the matter such as "The Origin of the Indo-Iranians" by E.E Kuz'mina? How about Mallory's work on the Indo-Iranian character of various steppe cultues? Have you read anything by Jaska on the early Indo-Iranian borrowings in Uralic languages? There is no other homeland for Indo-Iranians than the North Caspian steppes. I was uninformed on the roots of the Andronovo culture in Yamnaya-Poltavka. The identity of Indo-Iranians might have formed on the Asian steppe (and likewise for Tocharians in East-Central Asia) but there roots were in Eastern Europe. It is also illogical to assume IE groups originated out of nowhere in Asia.

It is irrelevant what I used to believe. I am far more informed on the matter now than I was then.

Thanks.

Does Jaska provide an answer to a basic question - why no Uralic influence in Pali or Tocharian? This one way borrowing into Uralic indicates that Uralic came into touch with some of the later prongs of IE, but not the earliest ones.

parasar
03-15-2014, 05:43 PM
parasar, but you just provided the evidence, no? There is no reason why I should be more similar to Greeks and Europeans (e.g. English, French) than Turks, unless Anatolian Turks have absorbed various "eastern" elements over the last 1000+ years (Turkic, Kurdish, etc.).



I agree, I did for the current population being a little different. If we remove that eastern element, I would think that perhaps Greeks and Anatolians would be even closer.

http://dodecad.blogspot.com/2010/11/how-turkish-are-anatolians-revisiting.html


It is very refreshing to see a paper by Turkish scientists who acknowledge what exactly that other 7/8 of the Anatolians' ancestry actually consists of: Before Seljuks, Anatolia was under the rule of Eastern Romans but was mainly inhabited by people of Greek origin for nearly two millennia (Toynbee, 1970).
http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2007/12/how-turkish-are-anatolians-new-alu.html

newtoboard
03-15-2014, 05:48 PM
Thanks.

Does Jaska provide an answer to a basic question - why no Uralic influence in Pali or Tocharian? This one way borrowing into Uralic indicates that Uralic came into touch with some of the later prongs of IE, but not the earliest ones.

I think he thinks the answer is probably that the various Indo-Iranian movements that brought IE influence to Uralic speakers were a result of steppe Indo-Iranians moving north into the forest steppe and forest zones. I agree with him. One way movement equals one way influence for the most part. This holds true for both Europe(Poltavka->Abashevo) and Central Asia (Andronovo->South Siberia). There is no reason to think these IE speakers moving north ever migrated back south so I see no problem with the lack of Uralic influence in modern Indo-Iranian languages which are all spoken significantly south of the forest steppe.

The IE languages that were likely spoken in the Eastern forest steppe and South Siberia did not survive so we have no idea if they had Uralic influence or not.

parasar
03-15-2014, 06:30 PM
I think he thinks the answer is probably that the various Indo-Iranian movements that brought IE influence to Uralic speakers were a result of steppe Indo-Iranians moving north into the forest steppe and forest zones. I agree with him. One way movement equals one way influence for the most part. This holds true for both Europe(Poltavka->Abashevo) and Central Asia (Andronovo->South Siberia). There is no reason to think these IE speakers moving north ever migrated back south so I see no problem with the lack of Uralic influence in modern Indo-Iranian languages which are all spoken significantly south of the forest steppe.

The IE languages that were likely spoken in the Eastern forest steppe and South Siberia did not survive so we have no idea if they had Uralic influence or not.

I am not talking about later Iranic influences, but the earliest ones, which Jaska says were in contact with Uralic.
We do not even know if at that early time Uralic was even present in the Urals or anywhere close to Europe.

IMO, IE speakers had already entered India prior to the incoming Uralics from east asia, and the Uralics borrowed few IE terms from the remnant (slave orja http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/orja ) people they drove out from upper asia, much like later Turko-Mongols did later in central asia. The latter of course was a two way exchange since Turko-Mongols, unlike the Uralics, did influence India.

I am not sure about the time frames, but the three+ levels of 'ANE' if their dates can be calculated for Europe can give us an estimate.

1. "initial ANE admixture" (IE ?)
2. Subsequent ANE seen in Finns due to "Y-chromosome haplogroup N ... shared between Siberian and northeastern Europeans"
3. Later ANE seen in "Mordovians, Russians and Chuvash ... significantly more recent than that in Finns"

vettor
03-15-2014, 07:10 PM
I dont think it makes sense to speak about the Mesolithic and beakers together as they are completely different periods. Mesolithic groups just didnt remain hidden bidding their time for millenia to reemerge as beaker people complete with metal expertise. They had to have some history in between.

I think one problem is taking the idea of a single beaker people too far. Yes it was a network with many shared traits but it was also a very diverse one with major differences between their burial customs, major difference in physical types/craniology and a very strong tendency to insert some new beaker ideas into the existing traditions of the locality. I think while there is clearly a human vector in the spread, we can go too far in seeing it as a uniform phenomenon in terms of y DNA.

Some groups were probably 'beakerised' by contact and marriages if indeed this is not the main driving force of the spread of beaker traits. Once beakerised other male lines that were unrelated to those who made beakers elsewhere may have gone on to be expansive, particularly into areas where metal supply or mining was closer to virgin territory. We must not lose sight of the fact that metallurgical skills and mining of a level at least as high as beaker period metal existed in pre-beaker times across much of central and Med. Europe. The attraction in temperate Europe of linking into the beaker network may have been strongest in areas peripheral to the established metal sources. There may have been multiple variants on joining the beaker network

1. South France - local inland pre-beaker copper users hogged their metal and did not trade. This could have left a vacum on the south coast of France for traders from Iberia to supply a demand. French archaeologists do look at this as a migration.

2. Liguria/western Alps- local mines and metallurgy strongly existed and networks but there mines dried up by 2600BC. They may have sought metal but not settlers from Iberia and southern France - possibly females alliance movement only. This fits the continuity seen between beaker and pre-beaker at Aosda etc.

3. Csepel- surely this has something to do with a settlement from further west of traders forming a link to Carpathian metals. Unlikely to be Iberians IMO as they hardly needed to head to the Carpathians to get metal or to sell it to people who already had plenty.

4. NW Europe - practically virgin territory for metal supply and mining. Migration of someone who already knew metallurgy is certain. However, it should be noted that a great deal of Europe had pre-beaker metal knowledge and so there are a lot of areas where metallurgists could come from. Analysis of pre-beaker metallurgy in central Europe used by Corded Ware and others showed beaker metal was no different in skill and type to pre-beaker.

5. Central Europe-not clear. Many options. A lot of pre-beaker metal came from the Carpathians but there may have been some sources in central Germany etc. However, a lot of people would have been relatively periperal to metal supply.

So, in summary beaker may have been a mix of male lineages and sometimes beakerised groups must have been involved.

You missed out on the important eastern alps ....noric steel. Farmed by the illyrian Nori tribe, where eventually they where absorbed into celtic society and became the norici people of Noricum region.
traded with the Greeks ( hellenes) via the danube river-black sea link

vettor
03-15-2014, 07:17 PM
Any supporting evidence? We have to remember the Turks of Turkey have a ~10-20% east Asiatic element.

We also need to remember that the Turks from Turkic people in asian only arrived in modern Turkey not before 600AD............so the original people where never turks.
The ~10-20% you talk about, is most likely the only part of the turkic people and only a smaller percentage of this would be "east" asiatic

parasar
03-15-2014, 08:56 PM
We also need to remember that the Turks from Turkic people in asian only arrived in modern Turkey not before 600AD............so the original people where never turks.
The ~10-20% you talk about, is most likely the only part of the turkic people and only a smaller percentage of this would be "east" asiatic

That is probably correct.

Prior to the Seljuks the Huns also may have had some minor impact. Though it appears that Huns only periodically raided but did not settle.

Moses of Chorene(~450AD): "Rex autem aquilonarius appellatur Chacanus [Khan], qui est Chazirorum [Khazar] dominus, et regina vocatur Chathunia [Khatun] qua: est Chacani conjux ex Basiliorum [cf Kushan Basileos] gente orta" talking about a period about 200AD.

In 395AD Huns raided vast regions of west Asia including Turkey, Syria, Armenia, Media, etc.
http://books.google.com/books?id=CrUdgzSICxcC&pg=PA51

Chad Rohlfsen
03-21-2014, 02:16 AM
It didn't evolve twice, it's the same mutation then spread by sexual selection. Blue and gray eyes come from different alleles

Asparuk
04-06-2014, 08:08 PM
Why are some of you on the first 3 pages trying to use the excuse of "Balkan admixture" as a way to justify the dark pigmentation of these Kurgan people? Maykop admixture would be more probable, but that's if we are willing to reject the conclusion of this paper, that "rapid selection" happened.




Out of curiosity I checked my own allele values against these ancient remains. As it happens, I match the Riltsi sample fully (not that it means anything).

Nice, I match with the following:

http://piclair.com/data/v2yz2.jpg

http://piclair.com/data/c2v9u.jpg

http://piclair.com/data/6tshx.jpg

DMXX
04-06-2014, 11:21 PM
It didn't evolve twice, it's the same mutation then spread by sexual selection. Blue and gray eyes come from different alleles

Which alleles may these be? I'm not aware of any specific allele responsible for blue vs. gray eyes.

alan
04-06-2014, 11:39 PM
I agree. The default and most reasonable conclusion unbiased by preconceptions is simply that the western steppe peoples were majority relatively dark or darker than some of the later steppe Iranic groups. Who knows, in a culture of nomads crossing vast empty spaces maybe it is just pure chance that a small group who broke off east were atypically fair - i.e a founder effect. I think we have some unhelpful hanging on to long held ideas that are slowly being shown to be wrong.

For example a lot of people think of the hunter gatherer Europeans as being fair haired etc but so far this has not been the case in ancient DNA. It should be noted that the main hunter gatherer traditions of the currently light hair countries of northern Europe as far east as the Baltic and even NW Russia and north-west Ukraine came out of the same Magdallenian derived western traditions of hunters such as the two who have been tested and shown to be dark haired and skinned but blue eyed. So it seems they did not owe their lighter hair to the local hunter gatherers. R We dont have samples from epi-gravettian hunters yet but they occupied Italy, the Balkans and the Ukraine and there is no especially strong suggestion that they were any fairer. Right now, the case for selection for lighter skin being down to farming and the selection for lighter hair only being in its early stages c. 3000BC is looking very much supported.




Why are some of you on the first 3 pages trying to use the excuse of "Balkan admixture" as a way to justify the dark pigmentation of these Kurgan people? Maykop admixture would be more probable, but that's if we are willing to reject the conclusion of this paper, that "rapid selection" happened.



Nice, I match with the following:

http://piclair.com/data/v2yz2.jpg

http://piclair.com/data/c2v9u.jpg

http://piclair.com/data/6tshx.jpg

alan
04-06-2014, 11:43 PM
If that was correct that would be interesting as they do have different distributions. We do have ancient DNA evidence that blue eyes were common among western tradition hunter gatherers. Old physical anthropology books tends to make grey eyes more eastern within Europe.


It didn't evolve twice, it's the same mutation then spread by sexual selection. Blue and gray eyes come from different alleles

Jean M
04-25-2014, 06:34 PM
We do have ancient DNA evidence that blue eyes were common among western tradition hunter gatherers.

No we don't. :) As DMXX indicated above (and he should know, after all his work on his eye colour project) there is no way at the moment to be sure exactly which light eye shade the man from La Brana had. The artist showed his eyes as bright blue. It makes a striking picture. But we shouldn't take it too literally.

DMXX
04-25-2014, 07:20 PM
No we don't. :) As DMXX indicated above (and he should know, after all his work on his eye colour project) there is no way at the moment to be sure exactly which light eye shade the man from La Brana had. The artist showed his eyes as bright blue. It makes a striking picture. But we shouldn't take it too literally.

Indeed. From my project and practically all the relevant sources on the topic of eye colour, all a person needs is a GG @ rs12913832 (HERC2) to produce light eyes definitively. I haven't formalised the results in my project just yet, but published papers have concluded other SNPs exert an additional effect between light or brown shades once the phenotypic foundation is set by rs12913832.

There's no guarantee the hunter-gatherer had the brilliant blue eyes depicted by the artist without looking at the other SNPs. All the posts I've seen on the matter so far have focused on rs12913832.

Little bit
04-25-2014, 09:31 PM
all a person needs is a GG @ rs12913832 (HERC2) to produce light eyes definitively

In my group of 8 for rs12913832 (HERC2), all Europeans:

GG baby blue (Polish mother-in-law)
GG grey blue (my daughter)
GG green/hazel (my maternal grandfather)
AG darker redish brown (me)
AG brownish hazel (my great uncle, my grandpa's brother)
AG greenish brown (my husband)
AG dark brown (my son)
GG dark green (my mom)

DMXX
04-25-2014, 09:49 PM
In my group of 8 for rs12913832 (HERC2), all Europeans:

GG baby blue (Polish mother-in-law)
GG grey blue (my daughter)
GG green/hazel (my maternal grandfather)
AG darker redish brown (me)
AG brownish hazel (my great uncle, my grandpa's brother)
AG greenish brown (my husband)
AG dark brown (my son)
GG dark green (my mom)

That all makes sense to me. Generally speaking after seeing up to a hundred phenotype-genotype combos over the years;

AA - Dark brown through to hazel. Classical/stereotypical combo = some shade of brown.
AG - Dark brown through to blue (usually with brown spots). Classical/stereotypical combo = hazel (brown interior, grey-green exterior).
GG - Hazel through to grey. Classical/stereotypical combo = green or blue.

As mentioned previously, it's the other alleles on other SNPs present which influence the colour further. It is highly improbable to have colours beyond those ranges per rs12913832 allele pairs, e.g. AA with blue or GG with brown eyes.

Tomenable
08-18-2015, 02:11 PM
Indeed recent findings suggest that in the Bronze Age the distribution of pigmentation in the Eurasian steppe was much different than it is today, with Central Asians and Siberians (such as people of Andronovo-Sintashta, Tashtyk, Tagar, Pazyryk, Karasuk cultures, Siberian-Scythians of the Altai region and Xiaohe mummies of the Tarim Basin), being lighter-haired and generally lighter-pigmented than people living to the west of them, such as steppe people of Yamnaya and Catacomb cultures in the eastern European steppe:

Pigmentation deduced so far from aDNA of some ancient steppe remains is as follows:

- Yamnaya culture - dark hair pigmentation; mixed eyes (light and dark colours); darker skin
- Catacomb culture - predominantly dark pigmentation just like in case of Yamnaya culture
- Xiaohe mummies - light brown, dark brown, chestnut, red and black hair colours
- Andronovo-Sintashta - blond, light brown, dark brown hair; mixed eyes (light & dark); fair to medium skin
- Mongolian Altai - dark brown, brown, dark blond, black hair; eyes mainly brown
- Tagar culture - blond and brown hair; mixed eyes (blue, green, brown); skin fair to medium
- Tashtyk culture (samples from Khakassia) - blond, brown hair; blue and green eyes; skin fair to medium
- Pazyryk culture - blond ("Ukok Plateau Princess"), brown, black ("Amazon of Ak-Alach") hair
- Karasuk culture - mixed eyes (light and dark, that is blue, green and brown)
- Mezocsat culture (in Hungary) - one sample - dark blond hair and brown eyes

Moreover, that pattern seems to correlate also with two major haplogroups, R1b and R1a:

1) In the western steppe during the Bronze Age: darker pigmentation, mostly R1b:
2) In the eastern steppe during the Bronze Age: lighter pigmentation, mostly R1a:

Map: http://s30.postimg.org/4sarvtydt/Steppe_R1a_and_R1b.png

http://s30.postimg.org/4sarvtydt/Steppe_R1a_and_R1b.png

As for dating of R1a samples - check my thread (later I will start a similar one about R1b):

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?5053-Over-50-ancient-R1a-samples-in-the-context-of-archaeological-cultures&p=102151&viewfull=1#post102151

http://s23.postimg.org/nen0yig57/R1a_Asia_dates.png

Krefter
08-18-2015, 03:13 PM
Indeed recent findings suggest that in the Bronze Age the distribution of pigmentation in the Eurasian steppe was much different than it is today, with Central Asians and Siberians (such as people of Andronovo-Sintashta, Tashtyk, Tagar, Pazyryk, Karasuk cultures, Siberian-Scythians of the Altai region and Xiaohe mummies of the Tarim Basin), being lighter-haired and generally lighter-pigmented than people living to the west of them, such as steppe people of Yamnaya and Catacomb cultures in the eastern European steppe:

Pigmentation deduced so far from aDNA of some ancient steppe remains is as follows:

- Yamnaya culture - dark hair pigmentation; mixed eyes (light and dark colours); darker skin
- Catacomb culture - predominantly dark pigmentation just like in case of Yamnaya culture
- Xiaohe mummies - light brown, dark brown, chestnut, red and black hair colours
- Andronovo-Sintashta - blond, light brown, dark brown hair; mixed eyes (light & dark); fair to medium skin
- Mongolian Altai - dark brown, brown, dark blond, black hair; eyes mainly brown
- Tagar culture - blond and brown hair; mixed eyes (blue, green, brown); skin fair to medium
- Tashtyk culture (samples from Khakassia) - blond, brown hair; blue and green eyes; skin fair to medium
- Pazyryk culture - blond ("Ukok Plateau Princess"), brown, black ("Amazon of Ak-Alach") hair
- Karasuk culture - mixed eyes (light and dark, that is blue, green and brown)
- Mezocsat culture (in Hungary) - one sample - dark blond hair and brown eyes

Moreover, that pattern seems to correlate also with two major haplogroups, R1b and R1a:

1) In the western steppe during the Bronze Age: darker pigmentation, mostly R1b:
2) In the eastern steppe during the Bronze Age: lighter pigmentation, mostly R1a:


I added examples of Bronze age people with preserved to my "Pre Historic West Eurasian Phenotype (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1xe9sgt0PSt6cUQ3cYp14foBoaVGsOKZBmmHJoKz0HB0/edit?usp=drive_web)" spreadsheet. I was able to find 10 Tarim mummies from 3,000-4,000 years ago with preserved. It looks all had Black/Brown hair except 2 with Blonde, and 1 with Blonde/Brown. Some it's hard to tell, so I didn't add them. One may have had Red and was labeled as Red by documentary, but I think the color changed overtime while dead. 2/3 Bronze age individuals from Denmark(~1300 BC) had Brown hair and 1 had Blonde hair(Egtved girl born in Central Europe not Denmark).

Around 60-80% of Central/North Europeans today have Brown/Black hair and 20-40% have Blonde so these mummies are consistent with what we see in their descendants/close relatives. I don't think much has changed since the Late Neolithic/Bronze age.

We have pretty much no idea what any other ancient people had based on DNA. Only Red hair can be predicted accurately with DNA markers. I once read about an old-book which discussed preserved hair in Bronze age Kurgans from all over Europe, and it said they all had "black hair". We can be pretty confident that Red hair existed in Yamnaya/Afanasievo at something like 1-3% or more, in Bell Beaker/Scandinavia at maybe 5%, and in Sintashta/Andronovo at maybe as much 10%. So, similar frequencies as today.

The light-pigmented Central Asians/Siberians lived 1,000+ years after the dark-pigmentation Catacomb/Yamnaya folk. I guess for a few hundred years they would have been contemporary though. Yamnaya was darker than Sintashta, but not darker than Bell Beaker. Plus Corded Ware if anything was more like Yamnaya than Sintashta. There's no clear trend in Y DNA.

DMXX
08-18-2015, 03:22 PM
^ Not sure that Y-DNA has much to do with the comparisons, given the steppe R1b folks emerged at least a millennia before the R1a ones had. I agree with Krefter.

parasar
08-18-2015, 04:09 PM
From the Mongolian Altai, brown eyes and dark hair predominate
http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2014/06/ancient-dna-from-bronze-age-altai.html
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-rFgh7T7Bp78/U5FOfhxpgwI/AAAAAAAAJoM/q7nbDxZPuDs/s1600/hollard.png

Tomenable
08-18-2015, 04:56 PM
I was able to find 10 Tarim mummies from 3,000-4,000 years ago with preserved. It looks all had Black/Brown hair except 2 with Blonde, and 1 with Blonde/Brown. Some it's hard to tell, so I didn't add them.

Check here (pigmentation from genes, and pigmentation surviving):

http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/silkroaddna.shtml

http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/ancientdna.shtml

http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/ironagedna.shtml

And here a chart based on pigmentation data from the links above:

Note that I made this chart months ago and some things are clearly wrong, so sorry for these mistakes (for example Xiaohe mummies should be dated to 2515 ± 43 BC, not to 1980 ± 40 BC):

http://s4.postimg.org/5gjpqzz31/Steppe_Phenotypes.png

http://s4.postimg.org/5gjpqzz31/Steppe_Phenotypes.png


given the steppe R1b folks emerged at least a millennia before the R1a ones had.

R1a folks from Xiaohe in Tarim Basin are now dated to 2515 ± 43 BC, so not really "millennia".


I was able to find 10 Tarim mummies from 3,000-4,000 years ago with preserved. It looks all had Black/Brown hair except 2 with Blonde, and 1 with Blonde/Brown.

Well, my chart above doesn't have a single Tarim mummy with blond hair (only with brown).

So it looks like they were even lighter-pigmented than I have thought until now.

On the other hand, in my chart only 1 had black hair. I counted "brown-black" as dark brown.

Tomenable
08-18-2015, 05:07 PM
Parasar,


From the Mongolian Altai, brown eyes and dark hair predominate

The Mongolian Altai was a melting pot of Western Eurasian and East Asian lineages.

And actually that chart shows a correlation that you have not mentioned. Namely, that individuals with R1a-Z93 had on average lighter hair than those with Q-L54, Q-M242 and C-M130 haplogroups.

For instance, the only guy in that sample with dark blond hair was R1a-Z93.

The same applies to Andronovo samples, where individual with C had darker hair than Z93-s.

Tomenable
08-18-2015, 05:22 PM
Krefter,

To me brown hair is also light hair, unless it is dark brown. ;)

As for "purely blond" (not brown) individuals - these included for example the following individuals:

1) Pigmentation from genes:

S09 and S16 (Andronovo); S26 (Tagar); S33, S36 and S37 (Tashtyk) - from Keyser 2009*

Individual TU34 from Mongolian Altai (dark blond) from Hollard 2014**

IR1 from Mezocsat culture (he was a male, his Y-DNA was N1c not R1a) from Gamba 2014***

* - Keyser 2009, "Ancient DNA provides new insights into the history of south Siberian Kurgan people"
** - Hollard 2014, "Strong genetic admixture in the Altai at the Middle Bronze Age revealed by uniparental and ancestry informative markers"
*** - Gamba 2014, "Genome flux and stasis in a five millennium transect of European prehistory"

2) Pigmentation preserved:

So called "Ukok Princess" from Ukok Plateau (Pazyryk culture) - Photo of her mummy (http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-xNsV8ARnHKo/U4oBTKuixtI/AAAAAAAArdk/fFutOjewBhw/s1600/93972694.jpg)

And perhaps some more individuals. Are there some Tarim mummies with "pure blond" hair ???

==============================

What I'm saying is that blond hair could be "native" to Central Asian steppe, or to Asia in general.

We also have historical Greek and Roman accounts which describe blond-haired steppe tribes.

For example Iranic-speaking Alans were described as "mightily blond" people.

Of course Scots and the Irish have been described as "mightily red-haired" even though only 10%-15% of them have red hair, so Alans probably also had a similar percent of blondes among them. ;)

On the other hand, alleles responsible for blond and red colours are recessive, so they can easily and quickly decline in frequency unless there are some kinds of mating habits and sexual preferences which sustain their frequencies (which is probably how they became frequent in some populations). But if blond hair suddenly ceases to be "trendy" in some culture, then percent of blondes will quickly decline.

Krefter
08-18-2015, 05:59 PM
Krefter,


As for "purely blond" (not brown) individuals - these included for example the following individuals:

1) Pigmentation from genes:

I'm sure some people from those ancient pops had Yellow-Hair. But it's hard to predict hair color in specific individuals with known DNA markers.

2) Pigmentation preserved:

So called "Ukok Princess" from Ukok Plateau (Pazyryk culture) - Photo of her mummy (http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-xNsV8ARnHKo/U4oBTKuixtI/AAAAAAAArdk/fFutOjewBhw/s1600/93972694.jpg)

And perhaps some more individuals. Are there some Tarim mummies with "pure blond" hair ???

Here are the Tarim mummies (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1XPNAOhNlm145uBGD9RQExQz9Yz7058q2y9dK0q8TwRw/edit) I found. Two Tarim mummies from the same burial had Yellow-Blonde hair like the Ukok Princess. The Egtved girl from also had Yellow-Blonde hair. Noticeable frequency of Yellow-influenced hair(at the point where it isn't a novelty) must have existed somewhere somewhere in Denmark-Ural in 2000 BC or earlier when the Egtved girl and the Tarim mummies had common ancestors. So it seems Blonde hair probably first appeared in high frequency in WHG/EEF/Steppe hybrids. That could be totally wrong, because we need to find the genetic-cause and test on ancient DNA.

alan
08-18-2015, 06:56 PM
Check here (pigmentation from genes, and pigmentation surviving):

http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/silkroaddna.shtml

http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/ancientdna.shtml

http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/ironagedna.shtml

And here a chart based on pigmentation data from the links above:

Note that I made this chart months ago and some things are clearly wrong, so sorry for these mistakes (for example Xiaohe mummies should be dated to 2515 ± 43 BC, not to 1980 ± 40 BC):

http://s4.postimg.org/5gjpqzz31/Steppe_Phenotypes.png

http://s4.postimg.org/5gjpqzz31/Steppe_Phenotypes.png



R1a folks from Xiaohe in Tarim Basin are now dated to 2515 ± 43 BC, so not really "millennia".



Well, my chart above doesn't have a single Tarim mummy with blond hair (only with brown).

So it looks like they were even lighter-pigmented than I have thought until now.

On the other hand, in my chart only 1 had black hair. I counted "brown-black" as dark brown.

Despite stereotypes that list of hair colours would probably be very similar to most northern European populations with its mix of mostly different shades of light to dark brown, but with a significant minority amount of blonde, some red and some black. That could describe almost all north and central European populations I have encountered with just moderate variation in degree. Its only at the extremes that you get total domination of really dark or really fair hair.

Tomenable
08-18-2015, 07:19 PM
Plus Corded Ware if anything was more like Yamnaya than Sintashta.

Well, according to Allentoft et al., Sintashta was very likely descended from Eastern Corded Ware.

So how could Corded Ware be unlike Sintashta, if Sintashta was descended from Corded Ware?

Tomenable
08-18-2015, 07:30 PM
Thank you Krefter!

So, to sum up:

Let's see where does the oldest (to date) evidence of blondness come from.

1) Cases of ancient blondes where hair pigmentation survived:

The oldest discovered so-far example of a blond person from Scandinavia is a Bronze Age Egtved girl (dated to 1390-1370 BC). Egtved girl died in Denmark, but she was born more to the south, in Central Europe, as examination of isotope ratios in her tooth enamel shows.

Two Bronze Age blond mummies (photos posted by Krefter) from Xiaohe in the Tarim Basin (Xinjiang, western China), are older than Egtved girl (dated to ca. 1800 BC).

2) And cases where hair pigmentation was deduced from genes:

Old blondes (1800-1400 BC) from the borderland of Russia-Kazakhstan-Mongolia-China include individuals of Andronovo culture, S09 (woman) and S16 (man) described by Keyser 2009, "Ancient DNA provides new insights into the history of south Siberian Kurgan people".

As well as male individual TU34 from Takhilgat Uzuur in Mongolian Altai (ca. 1010 BC), who was dark blond with brown eyes, described in Hollard 2014, "Strong genetic admixture in the Altai at the Middle Bronze Age revealed by uniparental and ancestry informative markers".

Blondes could be present in western China and in the Altai 500 years before they appeared in Denmark.

Modern Kalash, Nuristanis, Tajiks, Uyghurs, Pashtuns, etc. have preserved these features to some extent.

Kale
08-19-2015, 02:00 PM
Thank you Krefter!

So, to sum up:

Let's see where does the oldest (to date) evidence of blondness come from.

2) And cases where hair pigmentation was deduced from genes:


Correction. One of the 7500 year old farmers from Hungary (or was it Croatia?) had blond hair.

Krefter
08-19-2015, 04:17 PM
Well, according to Allentoft et al., Sintashta was very likely descended from Eastern Corded Ware.

So how could Corded Ware be unlike Sintashta, if Sintashta was descended from Corded Ware?

I guess the number of CWC samples is too low to tell, but: 50% of Sintashta/Andronovo have blue eyes and 0/8 Corded Ware do. A high number of Corded ware have AG in the OCA2 eye color SNP than Yamnaya though. 0/8 Corded Ware have a Red hair-variant while majority of Sintashta/Andronovo have one. Yamnaya/Afanasievo had more Red hair-variants so far than Corded Ware. A higher percentage of Sintashta/Andronovo have rs16891982 GG, and no Sintashta/Andronovo have CC in that SNP.

An interesting trend I noticed is: 2/2 CWC from Estonia/Sweden have rs16891982 CC and rs12913832 AA, that's a combination unheard of in Europe today. The R1b-U106 guy from 2000 BC Sweden had a similar autosomal makeup as Bell beaker, and he had rs16891982 GG and rs12913832 GG.

newtoboard
08-22-2015, 03:17 PM
Check here (pigmentation from genes, and pigmentation surviving):

http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/silkroaddna.shtml

http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/ancientdna.shtml

http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/ironagedna.shtml

And here a chart based on pigmentation data from the links above:

Note that I made this chart months ago and some things are clearly wrong, so sorry for these mistakes (for example Xiaohe mummies should be dated to 2515 ± 43 BC, not to 1980 ± 40 BC):

http://s4.postimg.org/5gjpqzz31/Steppe_Phenotypes.png

http://s4.postimg.org/5gjpqzz31/Steppe_Phenotypes.png



R1a folks from Xiaohe in Tarim Basin are now dated to 2515 ± 43 BC, so not really "millennia".



Well, my chart above doesn't have a single Tarim mummy with blond hair (only with brown).

So it looks like they were even lighter-pigmented than I have thought until now.

On the other hand, in my chart only 1 had black hair. I counted "brown-black" as dark brown.

Why are they dated to 2515 BC now? More hair colors in the files here.

http://www.biomedcentral.com/1741-7007/8/15/additional
http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2156/16/78/additional

parasar
08-22-2015, 03:34 PM
Why are they dated to 2515 BC now? More hair colors in the files here.

http://www.biomedcentral.com/1741-7007/8/15/additional
http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2156/16/78/additional

"Radiocarbon measurement (14C) dates the lowest layer of occupation to around 3980 ± 40 BP"
vs. calendar perhaps?
http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/silkroaddna.shtml

Tomenable
07-18-2017, 02:43 PM
Wasn't Bronze Age Steppe significantly lighter pigmented than Copper Age Steppe?

wombatofthenorth
07-20-2017, 12:12 AM
new papers published, not really so surprisingly, found that many of the HG, pre-Ice Age, were pale skinned and blue-eyed, they found SHG (Scandinavian) and EHG (Eastern) were pale skinned and even some WHG

it seems that it was not a good idea to take the early WHG findings and make broad assumptions from them

this basically makes sense since pigmentation is a just a few genes and it almost always tracks to sun exposure levels

some of the WHG they tested out in Iberia may have just been ones that became darker again having hid out in the far southern tip during the Ice Age

they think WHG probably had a bit of darker to paler cline pre-Ice Age, just as you see in modern European populations today

SHG seemed to have perhaps shown hints of originating more up in Siberia than Scandinavia and apparently pale skinned and mostly blue-eyed, as any sort of direct line they apparently went extinct very long ago although their DNA ended up subsumed some into both WHG and EHG who lasted longer as distinct populations

lukaszM
07-20-2017, 07:02 AM
new papers published, not really so surprisingly, found that many of the HG, pre-Ice Age, were pale skinned and blue-eyed, they found SHG (Scandinavian) and EHG (Eastern) were pale skinned and even some WHG


What paper exactly? This about Mesolithic Scandinavia or another also?

alexfritz
07-20-2017, 08:44 AM
SHG seemed to have perhaps shown hints of originating more up in Siberia than Scandinavia and apparently pale skinned and mostly blue-eyed, as any sort of direct line they apparently went extinct very long ago although their DNA ended up subsumed some into both WHG and EHG who lasted longer as distinct populations

acc to the latest study (günther et al) the mesolithic SHG were an in-situ hybrid of EHG and WHG, explaining their pigmentation as such: "Interestingly, the eye and light skin pigmentation phenotypes observed in all SHGs could potentially be explained by admixture between WHG and EHG groups. The high relative-frequency of the blue-eye color allele in SHGs, resembles WHG, while the intermediate frequencies of the skin color determining SNPs in SHGs seem more likely to have come from EHG, since both light-pigmented alleles are virtually absent from WHG. However, for all three well-characterized skin and eye-color associated SNPs, the SHGs display a frequency that is greater for the light-skin variants and the blue-eye variant than can be expected from a mixture of WHGs and EHGs. This observation indicates that the frequencies may have increased due to continued adaptation to a low light conditions"

the later neolithic hunter-gatherers on gotland (ajvide 58/70) also carried the derived alleles for light-pigm eyes but only Ajv70 carried alleles (heterozygous) for light-pigm skin; i couldnt find any details in that study as to how many mesolithic SHGs were actually homozygous for those derived alleles;
17626

the neolithic TRB gökhem farmers were homozygous derived at rs16891982 and rs142665 (akin to ötzi and the other farmers), though largely of anatolian stock they were also heavily HG (WHG?) admixed;

wombatofthenorth
07-21-2017, 12:53 AM
What paper exactly? This about Mesolithic Scandinavia or another also?

http://www.biorxiv.org/content/early/2017/07/17/164400
http://www.biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/suppl/2017/07/17/164400.DC1/164400-2.pdf

My post may have had a few things a touch off since I based on someone's summary of the paper without having looked at the paper myself at the time.

Finn
07-21-2017, 08:57 PM
That all makes sense to me. Generally speaking after seeing up to a hundred phenotype-genotype combos over the years;

AA - Dark brown through to hazel. Classical/stereotypical combo = some shade of brown.
AG - Dark brown through to blue (usually with brown spots). Classical/stereotypical combo = hazel (brown interior, grey-green exterior).
GG - Hazel through to grey. Classical/stereotypical combo = green or blue.

As mentioned previously, it's the other alleles on other SNPs present which influence the colour further. It is highly improbable to have colours beyond those ranges per rs12913832 allele pairs, e.g. AA with blue or GG with brown eyes.

Indeed bulls eye, most of the eye predictors (Gedmatch, dna prieger) predicted wrong results for me; blue/gray or hazel/green. In fact I have brown eyes, only DNA Land predicted right! And indeed rs12913832 AG....is this a "dominant gene" ?