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TigerMW
02-11-2021, 05:31 PM
The largest part of the R1b Basal Subclades "sub" project is R1b-M269>L23>Z2103. I've created an overview descendants tree for Z2103. This is a draft version. It is an overview so not every subclade is there - just the larger and early branches.

You can see and download high resolution versions of this chart on our About/Results web page.
https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/r-1b-basal-subclades/about/results

For the full tree in an outline format, go to the FTDNA public haplotree.
https://www.familytreedna.com/public/y-dna-haplotree/R;name=R-Z2103

JMcB
02-11-2021, 06:12 PM
The largest part of the R1b Basal Subclades "sub" project is R1b-M269>L23>Z2103. I've created an overview descendants tree for Z2103. This is a draft version. It is an overview so not every subclade is there - just the larger and early branches.

You can see and download high resolution versions of this chart on our About/Results web page.
https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/r-1b-basal-subclades/about/results

For the full tree in an outline format, go to the FTDNA public haplotree.
https://www.familytreedna.com/public/y-dna-haplotree/R;name=R-Z2103

Nice chart!

Silesian
02-11-2021, 06:21 PM
The largest part of the R1b Basal Subclades "sub" project is R1b-M269>L23>Z2103. I've created an overview descendants tree for Z2103. This is a draft version. It is an overview so not every subclade is there - just the larger and early branches.

You can see and download high resolution versions of this chart on our About/Results web page.
https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/r-1b-basal-subclades/about/results

For the full tree in an outline format, go to the FTDNA public haplotree.
https://www.familytreedna.com/public/y-dna-haplotree/R;name=R-Z2103

Thank you for your hard work. Is there anyway you could add 2 nodes from CTS-7822 Yfull?
Around the Ryazan-Oka river region.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/54/Okarivermap.png
CTS-7822*Ryazanskya oblast, Russia, 3300BC
https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Z2110/
CTS1450*-Mordoviya Russsia
https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-CTS1450/

trdbr1234
02-11-2021, 07:32 PM
What do you guys make of the distribution of Z2103?

TigerMW
02-11-2021, 08:06 PM
Thank you for your hard work. Is there anyway you could add 2 nodes from CTS-7822 Yfull?
Around the Ryazan-Oka river region.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/54/Okarivermap.png
CTS-7822*Ryazanskya oblast, Russia, 3300BC
https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Z2110/
CTS1450*-Mordoviya Russsia
https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-CTS1450/

What's the RC dating on the CTS1450 guy? Are these both Yamnaya?

Are there any other Z2103 ancient DNA guys that we could add?

Silesian
02-11-2021, 08:30 PM
What's the RC dating on the CTS1450 guy? Are these both Yamnaya?

Are there any other Z2103 ancient DNA guys that we could add?

CTS-7822+ aka Z-2110 is branch of Z-2109 Yamnaya. We have not had any luck either, still waiting for 1 sample to show up, much like L51 Yamnaya. I think those Corded Ware L51 samples in Southeast Poland might have had some Bell Beaker cts-7822 company. Just waiting like everyone else.

dsm
02-11-2021, 09:00 PM
What do you guys make of the distribution of Z2103?

Some thoughts and comments.

Z2103 appears to have 'emerged' around Samara Russia
Z2103 is (for some of us) a marker for Yamnaya (by this I am meaning Yamnaya Culture vs Yamnaya Horizon. And even more specifically, Yamnaya Horizon seems to include R1a-Z93 and R1a-Z283 and Z2103, and its cousin L51 and also must include some branches of I2. While Yamnaya Culture, only includes Z2103 and some I2.
Z2103 spread from Samara both south (to Kalmykia and beyond), and east into the *.stans countries.
Z2103 also spread south and into Anatolia
Z2103 also spread east approx 2,500 kms to Mongolia very early in Z2103's existance
Z2103 as Yamnaya Culture migrated into the Carpathian Basin, settled there and became traders in goods and horses
Z2103 spread into the middle east
Etc: etc:

Coldmountains
02-11-2021, 09:18 PM
Some thoughts and comments.

Z2103 appears to have 'emerged' around Samara Russia
Z2103 is (for some of us) a marker for Yamnaya (by this I am meaning Yamnaya Culture vs Yamnaya Horizon. And even more specifically, Yamnaya Horizon seems to include R1a-Z93 and R1a-Z283 and Z2103, and its cousin L51 and also must include some branches of I2. While Yamnaya Culture, only includes Z2103 and some I2.
Z2103 spread from Samara both south (to Kalmykia and beyond), and east into the *.stans countries.
Z2103 also spread south and into Anatolia
Z2103 also spread east approx 2,500 kms to Mongolia very early in Z2103's existance
Z2103 as Yamnaya Culture migrated into the Carpathian Basin, settled there and became traders in goods and horses
Z2103 spread into the middle east
Etc: etc:

Considering that Afanasievo and Yamnaya still pick minor EEF on qpAdm and there seems to be no M417 or M269 in Khvalynsk (+not enough CHG in Khvalnysk) i personally would not say the Middle Volga/Samara region played a central role in the formation of PIEs and is where PIE clades like Z2103 were born. Rather somewhere more in the southwest and closer to the Don region.

dsm
02-11-2021, 09:41 PM
Considering that Afanasievo and Yamnaya still pick minor EEF on qpAdm and there seems to be no M417 or M269 in Khvalynsk (+not enough CHG in Khvalnysk) i personally would not say the Middle Volga/Samara region played a central role in the formation of PIEs and is where PIE clades like Z2103 were born. Rather somewhere more in the southwest and closer to the Don region.

That could be possible. I today though, rely on the oldest known L23 and the oldest known Z2103 aBurials which are around Samara. And, progressive burials (newer in time) show a clear trail from Samara in many directions, not from the Don.

When and if aBurials of Z2103 show up around the Don which spans quite a distance from the Forrest Steppe zone to the open Steppes (where the Don + Volga almost meet) and predates the current oldest Z2103, I will happily agree with you. Also note that the current oldest Z2103 is actually from Orenburg which is over to the right of Samara. The opposite direction from the Don. But, all things are possible as more discoveries are published.

<edit> Added the below map that shows the Don & the Volga - Samara is on the map.
43231

TigerMW
02-11-2021, 09:52 PM
What's the RC dating on the CTS1450 guy? Are these both Yamnaya?

Are there any other Z2103 ancient DNA guys that we could add?

CTS-7822+ aka Z-2110 is branch of Z-2109 Yamnaya. We have not had any luck either, still waiting for 1 sample to show up, much like L51 Yamnaya. I think those Corded Ware L51 samples in Southeast Poland might have had some Bell Beaker cts-7822 company. Just waiting like everyone else.

Let me ask this another way: I have the Reich database.
What sample number are you saying is CTS7822?
Which sample number is CTS1450? Who made those calls?

I only see Z2103 and Z2103>M12149>Z2106 listed for this age around 3000 BC.

TigerMW
02-11-2021, 10:38 PM
T... overview descendants tree for Z2103. This is a draft version. It is an overview so not every subclade is there - just the larger and early branches.

You can see and download high resolution versions of this chart on our About/Results web page.
https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/r-1b-basal-subclades/about/results


I was asked to mark subclades with Jewish populations so I did. I also added a couple more branches that had tt least 30 sub-branches as well is filled in few more with country reporting.

There are almost 500 branches under Z2103 so this is just an overview.

Silesian
02-11-2021, 10:44 PM
Let me ask this another way: I have the Reich database.
What sample number are you saying is CTS7822?
Which sample number is CTS1450? Who made those calls?

I only see Z2103 and Z2103>M12149>Z2106 listed for this age around 3000 BC.

The only Yamnaya sample on YFull is Z2109+ Karagash. CTS-7822 and CTS-1450 have not been found in Yamnaya, those samples are from Yfull private citizens who's data has been added to Russia. I think one study had 20 %+/- R1b in Mordovians only listed as z2103.

Michał
02-12-2021, 09:05 AM
I was asked to mark subclades with Jewish populations so I did.
Is clade Y5587 really common among the Jews? Is there any specific subclade of Y5587 that seems to be associated with Jewish ancestry, and if so, which one is that?
I know of only one Jewish person within the relatively large (and relatively young) Slavic sublcade PH2147 (aka Y14300), so this looks like a recent convert (or NPE, adoption, etc.).

Silesian
02-12-2021, 01:31 PM
What do you guys make of the distribution of Z2103?


Considering that Afanasievo and Yamnaya still pick minor EEF on qpAdm and there seems to be no M417 or M269 in Khvalynsk (+not enough CHG in Khvalnysk) i personally would not say the Middle Volga/Samara region played a central role in the formation of PIEs and is where PIE clades like Z2103 were born. Rather somewhere more in the southwest and closer to the Don region.

I don't know why PIE has to be brought up every single time Afanasievo and or Yamnaya is brought up? It is a very sensitive and emotional subject amongst many of the posters and especially bloggers on this forum(not even related to Yamnaya-but use the overated component in their blogs to test their theories). That said L51 and Z2109 Afanasievo obviously are from the same culture and common sense that they spoke a common language, one that must have involved Kurgans, barrows, pastoralist 4 wheeled wagons and domesticated sheep, oxen/cows, horses, tanged copper daggers, Volga pottery.

Western L51(not Afanasievo Z2109+--L51+-high EHG like Repin) and R1a differ, in that they have the EEF Sardinian-Near Eastern farmer like component. Perhaps why Tiger on the L51 Corded Ware thought of a southern connection with R1b-L51 in Europe.


Ancestors of EEFs are believed to have split off from Western Hunter-Gatherers (WHGs) around 43,000 BC, and to have split from Caucasian Hunter-Gatherers (CHGs) around 23,000 BC. They appear to have migrated from Anatolia to the Balkans in large numbers during the 7th millennium BC, where they almost completely replaced the WHGs. The Y-DNA of EEFs was typically types of haplogroup G2a, and to a lesser extent H, T, J, C1a2 and E1b1, while their mtDNA was diverse. In the Balkans, the EEFs appear to have divided into two wings, who expanded further west into Europe along the Danube (Linear Pottery culture) or the western Mediterranean (Cardial Ware). Large parts of Northern Europe and Eastern Europe nevertheless remained unsettled by EEFs. During the Middle Neolithic there was a largely male-driven resurgence of WHG ancestry among many EEF-derived communities, leading to increasing frequencies of the hunter-gatherer paternal haplogroups among them.

How about adding related Yamnya clade CTS-7822>>Russia?

TigerMW
02-12-2021, 04:22 PM
Western L51(not Afanasievo Z2109+--L51+-high EHG like Repin) and R1a differ, in that they have the EEF Sardinian-Near Eastern farmer like component. Perhaps why Tiger on the L51 Corded Ware thought of a southern connection with R1b-L51 in Europe.
To be clear as I stated on the other thread, I don't think R1b-L51 primarily came into West and Central Europe through a southern or Mediterranean route. The L51 that led to P312 and the East Bell Beakers was L51>P310 and finally L51>P310>L151. I think that came around the north side of the Carpathian Mountains.

Silesian
02-12-2021, 04:39 PM
To be clear as I stated on the other thread, I don't think R1b-L51 primarily came into West and Central Europe through a southern or Mediterranean route. The L51 that led to P312 and the East Bell Beakers was L51>P310 and finally L51>P310>L151. I think that came around the north side of the Carpathian Mountains.

Here is an older post, do you agree, or disagree with the archeological Yamnaya like Russians Kurgan Z2109 finds?


A quote from Richard Rocca's opening post in this old thread
https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....l=1#post371120
It is obvious that cultural assimilation by indigenous people of an ideological ‘Package’ was important; but so too was the arrival of individual people from the steppes and Pontic area. Their significance derives from their social rank, and the archetype is the single burial from Bleckendorf, Lkr. Aschersleben-Staßfurt (Saxony-Anhalt) in Germany (Behrens 1952) (Fig. 49). We do not know if this man journeyed farther to the west than anyone else, yet his equipment and burial rite was typical for the Yamnaya culture. An early tanged knife, a copper awl, bone hammerhead pin, and a decorated beaker accompanied the skeleton in a deep pit. The radiocarbon determination places it around the 27th century BC (14C: 4080±20 bp [KIA-162]; 1-Sigma: 2850–2500 BC: J. Müller 1999). The nearest parallels are found in Moldavia at the Dnestr River and in the Ukraine.

TigerMW
02-12-2021, 04:42 PM
Is clade Y5587 really common among the Jews? Is there any specific subclade of Y5587 that seems to be associated with Jewish ancestry, and if so, which one is that?
I know of only one Jewish person within the relatively large (and relatively young) Slavic sublcade PH2147 (aka Y14300), so this looks like a recent convert (or NPE, adoption, etc.).
I'm not an expert on Jewish lineages. I'm just going off a discussion on the R1b.YDNA FB forum, a related presentation by the Jewish R1b project administrator and their project.

They have subgroups G1b1 and G1b2 as Y5587+.
https://www.familytreedna.com/public/JewishR1b?iframe=yresults

These two subclades of Y5587 are listed. They have a large genetic distance in SNP counts, when you include equivalents and privates.
R1b-Y5587>PH2147>BY593>FGC43625>BY165753>FT174699>FT174609>FT174119
R1b-Y5587>PH2147>BY593>FGC43625>BY177090

I don't have any opinion on how common this is. To cover myself and I use the description "Found in Jewish populations". This is on the "R1b-Z2103 Overview Descendant Tree" found on this web page.
https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/r-1b-basal-subclades/about/results

I'm not very politically correct but I don't call anyone an NPE. They have to call themselves that first.

TigerMW
02-12-2021, 04:51 PM
Here is an older post, do you agree, or disagree with the archeological Yamnaya like Russians Kurgan Z2109 finds?

Richard's paragraph has a lot of detail. I assume the data points in it are correct as he is thorough. I'm not sure what you are asking by "do you agree, or disagree with the archeological Yamnaya like Russians Kurgan Z2109 finds?"

The Reich database has several Yamnaya samples called as:
R-M343>L754>L389>P297>M269>L23>Z2103>M12149>Z2106

Z2109 is one branch down below Z2106 so it is quite possible that some of those samples ar Z2019+.

Are you saying that the German Bell Beakers have some common practices or common genes with Yamnaya? That makes sense.

Silesian
02-12-2021, 04:54 PM
Richard's paragraph has a lot of detail. I assume the data points in it are correct as he is thorough. I'm not sure what you are asking by "do you agree, or disagree with the archeological Yamnaya like Russians Kurgan Z2109 finds?"

The Reich database has several Yamnaya samples called as:
R-M343>L754>L389>P297>M269>L23>Z2103>M12149>Z2106

Z2109 is one branch down below Z2106 so it is quite possible that some of those samples ar Z2019+.

Are you saying that the German Bell Beakers have some common practices or common genes with Yamnaya? That makes sense.

I always wondered about this project since it ties in with those CTS-7822 Russian samples.
R1b-BY250-Northern Germanic
R1b Sub-Clade BY250 plus specific R1b sub-clades in Corded Ware area
https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/r-1b-by250-northern-germanic/about/background


Sergey already showed Armenia Rise 397 as z2106 and Yamnaya as the same as modern day Bashkirs
https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-03MZqCfIa38/W8J-7VqwI8I/AAAAAAAASCs/Eu55EhAbQwsXnV-eYG_2lSr8lZKzXuEVgCK4BGAYYCw/s1600/R1b-RZ2109%2BHaplogroup%2BMapping%2BaDNA_02_11_30_2015 .jpg

Silesian
02-12-2021, 05:00 PM
https://dnaexplained.files.wordpress.com/2016/07/jakoblenz-malyshev-chart.png

TigerMW
02-12-2021, 07:49 PM
... Sergey already showed Armenia Rise 397 as z2106 and Yamnaya as the same as modern day Bashkirs
Is Sergey still engaged? If so, on what project or forum? I've tried to contact him recently a couple of times with no response.

TigerMW
02-12-2021, 11:43 PM
How about adding related Yamnya clade CTS-7822>>Russia?
All I do is look at the Country Report from the haplotree and usually I cut it off at countries with at least 10%. Russia's only got about 3.5% of R-CTS7822. Is there a study that shows a high percentage in a particular group?

Italy 30 8.82%
Germany 30 8.82%
Ireland 26 7.65%
Poland 23 6.76%
England 21 6.18%
Montenegro 19 5.59%
Bulgaria 16 4.71%
UK 15 4.41%
USA 14 4.12%
CzechRep 14 4.12%
Russia 12 3.53%
Albania 9 2.65%
France 8 2.35%
Greece 7 2.06%
Hungary 6 1.76%
Sweden 6 1.76%
Switzerland 6 1.76%
Ukraine 5 1.47%
Armenia 4 1.18%
Jordan 4 1.18%
Scotland 4 1.18%
Portugal 4 1.18%
Spain 4 1.18%
Romania 4 1.18%
Serbia 4 1.18%

The above is everything over 1%.

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/y-dna-haplotree/R;name=R-CTS7822

Silesian
02-13-2021, 12:04 AM
All I do is look at the Country Report from the haplotree and usually I cut it off at countries with at least 10%. Russia's only got about 3.5% of R-CTS7822. Is there a study that shows a high percentage in a particular group?

Italy 30 8.82%
Germany 30 8.82%
Ireland 26 7.65%
Poland 23 6.76%
England 21 6.18%
Montenegro 19 5.59%
Bulgaria 16 4.71%
UK 15 4.41%
USA 14 4.12%
CzechRep 14 4.12%
Russia 12 3.53%
Albania 9 2.65%
France 8 2.35%
Greece 7 2.06%
Hungary 6 1.76%
Sweden 6 1.76%
Switzerland 6 1.76%
Ukraine 5 1.47%
Armenia 4 1.18%
Jordan 4 1.18%
Scotland 4 1.18%
Portugal 4 1.18%
Spain 4 1.18%
Romania 4 1.18%
Serbia 4 1.18%

The above is everything over 1%.

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/y-dna-haplotree/R;name=R-CTS7822

There is one study with Urdmurts, and another older one with Komi, but I think they only have them at z2103 level. Thanks anyway for your effort.

Ashina
04-30-2021, 06:31 PM
https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y60929/

Our tree just got updated. The academic sample is a Karabakh Armenian IIRC. Most of my dad’s West Asian matches in FTDNA are also Azerbaijani, Talysh or Armenian (he has 0 Anatolian Turk matches). I wonder if our R-Y60929 actually came from the Southern Caucasus too? Our oral stories do hint into that direction and there are records of my tribe residing in the Karabakh region a few hundred years ago.

dosas
04-30-2021, 09:02 PM
https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y60929/

Our tree just got updated.


Welcome to the R-A12332 family, :thumb:.

TigerMW
05-03-2021, 03:50 PM
The FTDNA haplotree now has 531 downstream subclades for R-Z2103. It's more widely distributed than many people think for the old "Armenian Modal Haplotype". Here are the Country Report numbers. I don't know the reason, but Armenia was lower on a prior report.
9% Armenia
7% Italy
7% Germany
6% Russia
5% Turkey
5% Poland
4% England
4% Ireland
4% Saudi Arabia
3% France
3% Bulgaria

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/y-dna-haplotree/R;name=R-Z2103

dosas
05-03-2021, 04:36 PM
The FTDNA haplotree now has 531 downstream subclades for R-Z2103. It's more widely distributed than many people think for the old "Armenian Modal Haplotype". Here are the Country Report numbers. I don't know the reason, but Armenia was lower on a prior report.
9% Armenia
7% Italy
7% Germany
6% Russia
5% Turkey
5% Poland
4% England
4% Ireland
4% Saudi Arabia
3% France
3% Bulgaria

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/y-dna-haplotree/R;name=R-Z2103


These sort of breakdowns are problematic since they don't display the ethnicity of the most distant ancestor, but rather the modern borders in which the birthplace is currently in. So Russia contains ethnic Caucasians, Turkey contains ethnic Greeks and Armenians, etc.

My grandfather's clade was ethnically Greek in what was 1910s Ottoman Empire, an entity no longer existing in that part of the world but belonging to the modern nation state of Bulgaria.

The Bulgarian flag may create false assumptions about the clade's trail, omitting that he was an Ottoman subject and ethnically Greek, this is crucial info that is missing.

Maybe a new method of displaying ethnicity would be preferable in some cases, afaik YFULL tries to alleviate this by attaching the language tag to each ID.

IronHorse
05-03-2021, 05:33 PM
These sort of breakdowns are problematic since they don't display the ethnicity of the most distant ancestor, but rather the modern borders in which the birthplace is currently in. So Russia contains ethnic Caucasians, Turkey contains ethnic Greeks and Armenians, etc.

My grandfather's clade was ethnically Greek in what was 1910s Ottoman Empire, an entity no longer existing in that part of the world but belonging to the modern nation state of Bulgaria.

The Bulgarian flag may create false assumptions about the clade's trail, omitting that he was an Ottoman subject and ethnically Greek, this is crucial info that is missing.

Maybe a new method of displaying ethnicity would be preferable in some cases, afaik YFULL tries to alleviate this by attaching the language tag to each ID.

I agree, FTDNA country reports do need more detail, province, ethnicity and language maybe

this for my subclade I-SK1270
https://www.familytreedna.com/public/y-dna-haplotree/I;name=I-SK1270

Armenia 28.07%
Greece 12.28%
Russian Federation 12.28%
Georgia 8.77%
Ukraine 5.26%
Turkey 3.51%

you would think Greece is like the Balkans, and Russia, well its Russia it could be anywhere.

the Greeks are Pontic Greeks from Northeast Turkey, and Russia the North Caucasus republics (Chechenia, Adygea), and two from Ukraine are Ashkenazi.

TigerMW
05-05-2021, 12:48 PM
I agree, FTDNA country reports do need more detail, province, ethnicity and language maybe

Absolutely, agreed. The more detail the better, and a lot more than this.

However, all of this should be taken with a grain of salt and I think only general trends or patterns considered.

For example, what is really needed is this kind of information at each level of the tree, not just the Earliest Known Ancestor. We are a mobile people and generally have been for millennia. In some cases we do know when the language changed and in some cases what ethnicity we think we are is not what we are.

Eventually, I think FTDNA should reinstate the ethnicity percentage pie charts per subclade on the Block Tree, but they need a lot more refinement than what they do.

This kind of reporting is biased towards consumer genetic genealogy. Ultimately, scientific, representative studies are needed to a much greater breadth and width beyond what we have with studies (for R-M269) from Myres and Busby research. A good study will make sure the samples are random and provide statistically sound reprentation. Oftentimes we see techniques used like picking people from rural areas (thought to be more stable than urban areas) where all four grandparents from the same locality.