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View Full Version : Mijaks of Galicnik mostly belong to R1a-M458 & R1b-U106



Korabi
02-12-2021, 02:04 PM
Apologies if this is the wrong place to post this. Figured it belonged in the Southern Europe section.

According to this study(linked below) Mijaks of Galicnik turned out to be mostly R1a-M458 at 56.8%. Their second dominant haplogroup was R1b-U106 at 25%, under half of which was basal U106*. 11.4% belonged to G2a-P15, and 4.5% to E1b1b(probably V13). Trace amounts of others for the remainder.

Sadly no STRs were published. Quite a surprising result. These percentages are likely due to founder effects and bottlenecks as they mostly appear homogeneous with their haplotypes according to the paper.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7699876/#!po=4.46429

Sorcelow
02-12-2021, 02:36 PM
I wish they would test the entire Mijak region, not just Galicnik.

Korabi
02-12-2021, 02:38 PM
I wish they would test the entire Mijak region, not just Galicnik.

True. Galicnik is one of the major regions for their population, though. Sadly most have migrated from the other villages, and are left empty.

Aspar
02-12-2021, 03:51 PM
Very interesting, thanks for sharing.
Although I have no origins from that region nor any connections with the people of the Mijak ethnographic region, these people were known as very hard-working people and great builders. The carving school of Debar was known throughout the Balkans and some of the best carvers and builders were members of that school.

As for the results, very interesting indeed, although only 44 males were tested, all with origins from the village of Galicnik. The high degree of R-M458 could indicate a Slavic origin, especially West Slavic. Nonetheless, this haplogroup was also found in the Hallstatt and La Tene cultures. Then again, most of R-M458 is due to founder effect as one haplotype can be observed as the most dominant per the publication. I don't know what to make of this in a situation where I-Y3120 and R-Z280 are missing. Could it be because of the small sample size? Even so, you would expect I-Y3120 as the most dominant South Slavic haplogroup to pop up even in such a small sample size.
Then again, the appearance of R-M269 and R-U106 as the second most represented haplogroup is interesting. Even more is the appearance of G2a as third most represented. This is very different from the general y-dna picture of the Macedonians where I-Y3120 and E-V13 are the most numerous. We do have two guys in our project, one with origins from a village around Debar and the other with origins from a village just over the border in Albania and both of them are I-Z17855. It's worth mentioning that one guy we do have from Galicnik tuned out R-M198*.

Could there be some Gaulish or Celtic involvement in the forming of the Mijaci people? These R-U106 and G2a haplogroups might give hint but also these M458 and M198* haplotypes which we can't really prescribe unconditionally all of them of Slavic origin. I see in the publication they already made such a proposal, of a Vlach origin of some Mijaks who in turn might be of further Celtic origin. In the vicinity of their ethnographic region we have the Shar mountain which name comes from the Celtic tribe of Scordisci. Also the very name of the village of Galicnik resemble closely the ethnonym or the exonym of the Gauls.

Then again in the publication they mentioned some story of arrival of the Mijak tribe as a Sclavinia from the vicinity of Thessaloniki. I never heard of such a thing, especially because such a Sclavinia wasn't recorded around Thessaloniki or nowhere in the region of Macedonia.

Also it's interesting this PC analysis they have done based on biallelic frequencies. I'm not sure what this means and whether is related with y-dna or autosomal markers? But it's interesting again this discrepancy when it comes to the Mijaks from Galicnik which places them around the Poles and other West Slavic people, far from the Balkan people.

Korabi
02-12-2021, 04:05 PM
Very interesting, thanks for sharing.
Although I have no origins from that region nor any connections with the people of the Mijak ethnographic region, these people were known as very hard-working people and great builders. The carving school of Debar was known throughout the Balkans and some of the best carvers and builders were members of that school.

As for the results, very interesting indeed, although only 44 males were tested, all with origins from the village of Galicnik. The high degree of R-M458 could indicate a Slavic origin, especially West Slavic. Nonetheless, this haplogroup was also found in the Hallstatt and La Tene cultures. Then again, most of R-M458 is due to founder effect as one haplotype can be observed as the most dominant per the publication. I don't know what to make of this in a situation where I-Y3120 and R-Z280 are missing. Could it be because of the small sample size? Even so, you would expect I-Y3120 as the most dominant South Slavic haplogroup to pop up even in such a small sample size.
Then again, the appearance of R-M269 and R-U106 as the second most represented haplogroup is interesting. Even more is the appearance of G2a as third most represented. This is very different from the general y-dna picture of the Macedonians where I-Y3120 and E-V13 are the most numerous. We do have two guys in our project, one with origins from a village around Debar and the other with origins from a village just over the border in Albania and both of them are I-Z17855. It's worth mentioning that one guy we do have from Galicnik tuned out R-M198*.

Could there be some Gaulish or Celtic involvement in the forming of the Mijaci people? These R-U106 and G2a haplogroups might give hint but also these M458 and M198* haplotypes which we can't really prescribe unconditionally all of them of Slavic origin. I see in the publication they already made such a proposal, of a Vlach origin of some Mijaks who in turn might be of further Celtic origin. In the vicinity of their ethnographic region we have the Shar mountain which name comes from the Celtic tribe of Scordisci. Also the very name of the village of Galicnik resemble closely the ethnonym or the exonym of the Gauls.

Then again in the publication they mentioned some story of arrival of the Mijak tribe as a Sclavinia from the vicinity of Thessaloniki. I never heard of such a thing, especially because such a Sclavinia wasn't recorded around Thessaloniki or nowhere in the region of Macedonia.

Also it's interesting this PC analysis they have done based on biallelic frequencies. I'm not sure what this means and whether is related with y-dna or autosomal markers? But it's interesting again this discrepancy when it comes to the Mijaks from Galicnik which places them around the Poles and other West Slavic people, far from the Balkan people.

Certainly is interesting the absence of I-Y3120 and R-Z280. Perhaps as in Albania, there are some villages wholly dominated by one or 2 lines and absent in neighboring villages. Perhaps this phenomenon is specific to Galicnik and other villages have other Y-DNA. It is a small sample size for sure. As you say, we should have at least seen some Y3120 in such a small size. I expected it to be at least more common than G or E in this case. Who can say how neighboring Mijak villages would compare.

There is also the case you make about M458 being found in Hallstatt and La Tene. The paper does say they appear homogeneous in their haplotypes. Perhaps, due to founder effects and bottlenecks. It remains to be seen whether they form their own branch. But in all probably they likely belong to L1029 and less commonly probably L260, or A11460. In my opinion, Unless the tmrca changes, most haplotypes still probably moved with Slavic tribes in early medieval. What they may have been in antiquity, Celtic, scyithian or otherwise; their movements in the last millennium or 2 are likely due to Slavic, and minimally Viking, East Germanic, or Avar and Bulgar movements.

I'm curious if the L1029 haplotype in Albanians (R-Y133361) may also exist in Galicnik Mijaks as the haplotype is found in Albanians of lower Dibra, Dibra Madhe and the upper Reka region primarily. There is even L51 among the Dibra region of Albanians on both sides of the border that have popped up. Wouldn't be surprised however few even, if some match each other within these lines in Galicnik.

I always thought the Mijak directly settled the region and not from Selanik/Thessaloniki. I was aware of the M198* Mijak. Certainly interesting. Would be nice to test Galicnik in your project including surrounding Mijak villages. May be able to make some sense of the paper.

As for the PCA, I believe this is in relation to Y-DNA/haplotypes and not to autosomal. Considering they were 56.8% M458, they share a similar frequency in this regard with Czechs and Poles both dominated by M458. Not sure if this PCA takes into consideration haplotypes of M458 like L1029 and L260.

Aspar
02-12-2021, 05:17 PM
It's certainly interesting to see their STR markers.
Yes, it will be very interesting to compare them with the Albanians over the border. Certainly an interesting region, however I would be careful to make any assumption. I'm not even certain that the Albanian cluster is of Slavic origin considering they don't have Slavic relatives later than TMRCA of R-L1029. I will mention again that Bulgarian with origins from Galicnik who is R-M198*. Such an isolated branxh could be the case with those R-M458 as well. It will be super good to test them. I believe the Serbian DNA Project Poreklo did organize testing for the Mijaks however I'm not aware of any results. Maybe some guys from Poreklo following this thread can give us more insights.

Korabi
02-12-2021, 05:46 PM
It's certainly interesting to see their STR markers.
Yes, it will be very interesting to compare them with the Albanians over the border. Certainly an interesting region, however I would be careful to make any assumption. I'm not even certain that the Albanian cluster is of Slavic origin considering they don't have Slavic relatives later than TMRCA of R-L1029. I will mention again that Bulgarian with origins from Galicnik who is R-M198*. Such an isolated branxh could be the case with those R-M458 as well. It will be super good to test them. I believe the Serbian DNA Project Poreklo did organize testing for the Mijaks however I'm not aware of any results. Maybe some guys from Poreklo following this thread can give us more insights.

It does not necessarily have to be Slavic in order for the haplotype to be present in Galicnik as well. Considering they have 25% U106. The haplotype tmrca in Albanians is 1200ybp so far. Perhaps some neighboring groups with this haplotype will be closer than 2100 years, but further than 1200 years.

There are samples from some studies that partially match this Albanian haplotype. Albeit they're incomplete so they may not be L1029 lol. These include a sample from Burgas, Razgrad, Macedonia, Calarsi in Romania, Northern Croatian, and a Serb from Sumadija, including several other Albanians in Albania and 2 in Macedonia. We had one sample with partial STRs predicted to be this haplotype which turned out to be A11460 instead. So these study samples may not be that haplotype. At least in the case of the non Albanian ones.

Thats also another possibility which I did suggest. They could form a rare haplotype under M458 like A11460. However, if their haplotypes are similar to Poles and Czechs, they probably mostly belong to L1029. Maybe they could form a completely different haplotype from the Albanian one, but under L1029* as well. I believe the La Tene sample from Czechia was L1029* but that paper didn't release yet so who can say for sure. Davidski seems confident at least one was. Also alot of R1a in Slovakian Urnfield.

alexfritz
02-13-2021, 12:50 AM
based on a small set of samples BUL n15 or ROM n8 but as a potential ref. when it comes to M458 in said 'neighboring' pops. the downstream clade is almost exclusive L1029 (most common YP417) rather than L260 or YP515
(likewise Serbia 4.4% M458 93% L1029 7% L260 0% YP515)

source: blog.vayda.pl (http://blog.vayda.pl/r1a/r1a-m458/)

Korabi
02-13-2021, 01:14 AM
based on a small set of samples BUL n15 or ROM n8 but as a potential ref. when it comes to M458 in said 'neighboring' pops. the downstream clade is almost exclusive L1029 (most common YP417) rather than L260 or YP515
(likewise Serbia 4.4% M458 93% L1029 7% L260 0% YP515)

source: blog.vayda.pl (http://blog.vayda.pl/r1a/r1a-m458/)

Whilst these figures still remain mostly consistent with that data, it is 2-3 years old. Theres also A11460 which is found in Serbs, and most of their L1029 belongs to YP417 as well. I'm not sure if any YP263 cases in Serbs. Bulgarians have YP263 as well. Though YP417 dominates. I imagine Mijak M458 will mostly be L1029 as well. Though, I would not be surprised if some of that L1029 forms undiscovered haplotypes, or if clades like A11460 appear among them. A11460 was found in NE Dibra region neighboring Macedonia. So there's a strong possibility A11460 is there as well. It remains to be seen how this Albanian A11460 matches with those in yfull. May not be in their sub cluster, but basal like the Poles.

eastara
02-14-2021, 12:23 AM
There is one person in the Bulgarian DNA project with origin from Tresonche (Mijak region) who is with the very rare R1a M417-(probably YP1051+). As he was identified early in DNA testing, the Russian geneticist Klyosov has developed some theories, that R1a may have started on the Balkans, which of course were proven false.
There is also one Bulgarian from my father's village of Breze(they are Shops from Sofia region) who is R1b U106. I see people from this village, including myself have also many Macedonian and Albanian relatives, it could be some movement of population from Macedonia/Albania North. It has already been proven with the Serbs/Montenegrins.
His branch is here, so it could be the same as Galichnik:
https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-A6703/

Hawk
02-14-2021, 09:13 AM
Never heard of Mijaks, interesting.

It could be just me, but i have noted before that Torbesi (Macedonian Muslims) look more Slavic than the average Macedonian.

eastara
02-14-2021, 10:40 AM
Never heard of Mijaks, interesting.

It could be just me, but i have noted before that Torbesi (Macedonian Muslims) look more Slavic than the average Macedonian.

It could be because they, like the Bulgarian Pomaks are very endogamous. This way the blonds, blue eyes are preserved more as recessive traits. While among Bulgarians with the mixing of population they are disappearing. Anthropological research shows, that 100 years ago there was bigger percentage of blonds and blue eyes among Bulgarians.

Aspar
02-14-2021, 11:01 AM
There is one person in the Bulgarian DNA project with origin from Tresonche (Mijak region) who is with the very rare R1a M417-(probably YP1051+). As he was identified early in DNA testing, the Russian geneticist Klyosov has developed some theories, that R1a may have started on the Balkans, which of course were proven false.
There is also one Bulgarian from my father's village of Breze(they are Shops from Sofia region) who is R1b U106. I see people from this village, including myself have also many Macedonian and Albanian relatives, it could be some movement of population from Macedonia/Albania North. It has already been proven with the Serbs/Montenegrins.
His branch is here, so it could be the same as Galichnik:
https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-A6703/

In this context I should mention one R-U106 Big Y results we have in the Macedonian project.
It's a man with origins from Shtip but his surname(after a town in the western part of the country) suggest further origins from Western Macedonia:
https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y28640/

He shares few SNP's with those Englishmen and will form a subclade with them if he ever uploads his results at Yfull. Further upstream there is one medieval sample from Rome and a southern German. There is also one Polish sample at the Block Tree. The clade is likely of Germanic origin.

Kelmendasi
02-14-2021, 12:29 PM
Never heard of Mijaks, interesting.

It could be just me, but i have noted before that Torbesi (Macedonian Muslims) look more Slavic than the average Macedonian.
If I recall correctly from some PCAs, the Torbeši cluster closely to Albanians, they should be the closest Slavic-speaking group from North Macedonia (maybe even the Balkans) to Albanians in regards to auDNA.

Kelmendasi
02-14-2021, 12:37 PM
The results from this study are very interesting, I certainly was not expecting the Mijaks of Galičnik to have a very high frequency of R1b-U106 at ~25%. The dominant frequency of R1a-M458 at ~56.8% and lower presence of E-M215 at only ~4.5% is very surprising. But as has been mentioned here, these frequencies are likely the result of founder effects and population bottlenecks, considering the homogeneity of the Mijaks.

I also wonder if similar results will show up in the other Mijak villages. The results also debunk much of the claims that the majority of the Mijaks are essentially Slavicized Albanians who also received substantial influence from Vlach groups. Though some of the cultural similarities are quite interesting to note.

Aspar
02-14-2021, 01:33 PM
If I recall correctly from some PCAs, the Torbeši cluster closely to Albanians, they should be the closest Slavic-speaking group from North Macedonia (maybe even the Balkans) to Albanians in regards to auDNA.

That's perhaps because of the religion and the Macedonian Muslims marring Albanian Muslim women. Y-dna wise they probably differ from the Albanians and shouldn't be too different from the other Macedonians. Although Albanian admixture it does seem to be a thing in Western Macedonia and not only female related. Typical Albanian haplogroups such as R-Z2705, E-Z38456 or J-PH1751 are found there more often than in other parts of the country. Recently one guy from a village near Prilep who was predicted E-Z38456 did Big Y test and his results are already on Yfull:
https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Y92017/

trdbr1234
02-14-2021, 02:03 PM
That's perhaps because of the religion and the Macedonian Muslims marring Albanian Muslim women. Y-dna wise they probably differ from the Albanians and shouldn't be too different from the other Macedonians. Although Albanian admixture it does seem to be a thing in Western Macedonia and not only female related. Typical Albanian haplogroups such as R-Z2705, E-Z38456 or J-PH1751 are found there more often than in other parts of the country. Recently one guy from a village near Prilep who was predicted E-Z38456 did Big Y test and his results are already on Yfull:
https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Y92017/

I would be willing contribute to a fund to test Mijaks and Reka Eper. I would want to wait a few months though because I have a feeling testing will become much cheaper in the coming months. Is there any way we can target Mijaks for testing? We would probably need someone willing to travel to the villages to collect samples.

trdbr1234
02-14-2021, 02:13 PM
The results from this study are very interesting, I certainly was not expecting the Mijaks of Galičnik to have a very high frequency of R1b-U106 at ~25%. The dominant frequency of R1a-M458 at ~56.8% and lower presence of E-M215 at only ~4.5% is very surprising. But as has been mentioned here, these frequencies are likely the result of founder effects and population bottlenecks, considering the homogeneity of the Mijaks.

I also wonder if similar results will show up in the other Mijak villages. The results also debunk much of the claims that the majority of the Mijaks are essentially Slavicized Albanians who also received substantial influence from Vlach groups. Though some of the cultural similarities are quite interesting to note.

I don't think there is enough evidence to suggest or refute an Albanian connection.

Korabi
02-14-2021, 02:30 PM
The results from this study are very interesting, I certainly was not expecting the Mijaks of Galičnik to have a very high frequency of R1b-U106 at ~25%. The dominant frequency of R1a-M458 at ~56.8% and lower presence of E-M215 at only ~4.5% is very surprising. But as has been mentioned here, these frequencies are likely the result of founder effects and population bottlenecks, considering the homogeneity of the Mijaks.

I also wonder if similar results will show up in the other Mijak villages. The results also debunk much of the claims that the majority of the Mijaks are essentially Slavicized Albanians who also received substantial influence from Vlach groups. Though some of the cultural similarities are quite interesting to note.

Could be similar to how some villages in Albania are dominated by 2 or 3 bloodlines that are either absent or less represented in other villages. It will be interesting to see if these percentages for M458/U106 remain consistent throughout Mijak settlements. In all probability, some villages are likely to be different, where M458/U106 don't appear or aren't that considerable as in Galicnik.

They say Galicnik is the most major settlement of the Mijaks so we will see how others compare I guess. Other than Galicnik though, most of the villages are left abandoned now. I guess the diaspora folk would have to be sure of an origin from those villages, otherwise looks like Galicnik is the best indication. The guy from Tresonce was R1a-M198*

It remains to be seen what haplotypes they have under M458/U106. They could match the Albanian haplotype of L1029(R-Y133361) or other shared haplotypes may exist between Albanians and Mijaks in U106. They may have A11460 as well, which recently showed up in an Albanian in NE Dibra region which remains to be seen if he clusters with Serbs, or is basal like the Poles. Even YP417/YP263 could be present. They are homogenous in their haplogroups but it remains to be seen how diverse those haplotypes are within the respective groups of M458 and U106. Sadly we won't know from this study as nothing was published.

This old photo from 1907 seems to indicate Albanians were in Galicnik. Unless of course it's shopped. Idk. For all we know they were mixed commune like Golloborde. Maybe Albanian input is only related to the small percent of E1b in the study. But honestly, that would be tunnel vision thinking. Regardless of what lines are or aren't paleobalkan, mixing has been occurring since the late antiquity/early medieval. The best indication of influence will be WGS/SNP testing to reveal any shared haplotypes and which ethnic population has the greater diversity of these haplotypes, to potentially show who moved from where and when.

https://i.postimg.cc/yYKdJJ4F/FB-IMG-1613137333798.jpg

Korabi
02-14-2021, 04:18 PM
Worth mentioning. Recently a basal R1a-M458* was added to yfull. The sample is a Turk Muslim, who's family were part of the population exchange with Greece/Turkey. His ancestors were from Selanik originally; specifically Chalkidiki in Greek Macedonia. They believe they came from Anatolia before 15th century with the Ottomans, but that doesn't seem likely given their Y-DNA.

There is supposedly a legend among Mijaks, that the founders of Galicnik were cattle breeders from Selanik. According to wiki anyway. Maybe someone has more knowledge there. If there is any truth to this, perhaps Galicnik may carry some basal M458* (among other haplotypes of M458) that could connect with with one from Selanik.

There is also the region of Crestonia near Kilkis called Gallicum/Gallikon. The inhabitants of 10th century Kilkis that fled to Italy during the Bulgarian Empires occupation supposedly founded the settlement of Galliciano. Perhaps these are all just coincidental.

https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-M458/