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BillMC
02-14-2021, 03:31 AM
If R1a and R1b are representative of the Indo-Europeans, then how come the Basque region has the highest European concentration of R1b? The Basques speak a non European langauge are often considered to be representative of pre-Indo-Eurupean Europeans.

rms2
02-14-2021, 04:06 AM
That question has been dealt with umpteen times over the years. It's now a very moldy old chestnut.

By far the bulk of R1b-M269 is associated with Indo-European-speaking peoples. Ancient DNA results show that to be the case, as well. No R1b-M269 in Europe west of the steppe before roughly the start of the 3rd millennium BC and then only in connection with cultures regarded as Indo-European.

Ancient DNA from the Basque country shows that before about 2500 BC the males in that area belonged to Y-DNA haplogroup I2a and carried no steppe DNA. Y-DNA haplogroup R1b-M269 and steppe DNA arrived in Iberia with the Beaker people about 2500 BC.

Modern Basques have both steppe DNA and R1b-M269. So how did that change come about while the Basques managed to hang onto a non-Indo-European language and culture?

Well, the ancient pre-Christian Basques worshipped the mother goddess Mari and had a matrilocal marriage tradition, i.e., the groom went to live with the bride's family. That sort of tradition was tailor-made for the introduction of outsider DNA (in this case Y-DNA R1b-M269 and steppe autosomal DNA) while simultaneously preserving the Basque language and culture, since all the children were raised within the orbit of the bride's family. Add to that the reproductive luck of the draw, and you've got the current situation among the Basques.

ADW_1981
02-14-2021, 04:19 AM
Basque have levels of R1b typical of the Bronze Age period in Iberia. If you look at outside the Basque region, the haplogroups that offset R1b are typically non-European haplogroups who settled the region post-Bronze Age. In terms of language, perhaps R1b men spoke both IE and non-IE languages as P312+ swept east to west. Perhaps Basque and related languages are just a legacy of the Neolithic farmer women. There are plenty of possibilities. It would be nice to finally see some Celtic cultural remains though. We do have a few who are R1b and some who are not R1b. They are sparse, so it would be nice to get a large treasure trove of graves.

BillMC
02-14-2021, 01:22 PM
Basque have levels of R1b typical of the Bronze Age period in Iberia. If you look at outside the Basque region, the haplogroups that offset R1b are typically non-European haplogroups who settled the region post-Bronze Age. In terms of language, perhaps R1b men spoke both IE and non-IE languages as P312+ swept east to west. Perhaps Basque and related languages are just a legacy of the Neolithic farmer women. There are plenty of possibilities. It would be nice to finally see some Celtic cultural remains though. We do have a few who are R1b and some who are not R1b. They are sparse, so it would be nice to get a large treasure trove of graves.

I can imagine males from IE marrying Basque woman and eventaully over the millenia establishing R1b as the standard YDNA. Would I be correct in assuming that the majority of Basque mtDNA is predominately pre IE?

rms2
02-14-2021, 01:37 PM
I'm not sure of Basque mtDNA or what exactly constitutes pre-IE mtDNA, but here are some ancient Basque country results from Lipson et al (2017), three skeletons from the megalithic tomb of El Sotillo in Spain, in the Basque Country, all three non-R1b, with no steppe autosomal dna:

I1976 2571-2347 calBCE Y-DNA: I2 mtDNA: H3

I2473 2916-2714 calBCE Y-DNA: I2a2a mtDNA: H3

I2467 2481-2212 calBCE Y-DNA: I2a2a mtDNA: X2b

Notice how old I2473 is.

etrusco
02-14-2021, 01:54 PM
I can imagine males from IE marrying Basque woman and eventaully over the millenia establishing R1b as the standard YDNA. Would I be correct in assuming that the majority of Basque mtDNA is predominately pre IE?

Prehistoric Europe experienced a marked cultural and economic shift around 4000 years ago, when the established Neolithic agriculture-based economy was replaced by herding-pastoralist industry. In recent years new data about the genetic structure of human communities living during this transition period began to emerge. At the same time, the genetic identities of the Eneolithic and Early Bronze Age (EBA) inhabitants from a prehistoric cultural crossroad in western North Pontic steppe region remain understudied. This report presents results of the investigation of maternal genetic lineages of individuals buried in kurgans constructed during the Eneolithic-EBA transition in the western part of the North Pontic Region (NPR). Mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) lineages from the interments belonging to the Eneolithic as well as the EBA cultures such as Yamna (Pit Grave), Catacomb and Babino (Mnogovalikovaya or KMK) were examined. In the 12 successfully haplotyped specimens, 75% of mtDNA lineages consisted of west Eurasian haplogroup U and its U4 and U5 sublineages. Furthermore, we identified a subgroup of east Eurasian haplogroup C in two representatives of the Yamna culture in one of the studied kurgans. Our results indicate the persistence of Mesolithic hunter-gatherer mtDNA lineages in western NPR through the EBA, as well as suggesting a mtDNA lineage continuum connecting the western NPR inhabitants of the Early Metal Ages to the North Pontic Neolithic population groups.

Mt dna U5 and U4 seem to be the native IE mtdna with the caveat that PIE ald all the succeding cultures underwent a massive exogamy process involving EEF and CHG mtdna. If you know the frequency of basque mtdna you should check how many are U4 U5. However both are WHG lines so it is difficult to say if they are native or they arrived with steppe ancestry.

Alain
02-14-2021, 02:27 PM
That question has been dealt with umpteen times over the years. It's now a very moldy old chestnut.

By far the bulk of R1b-M269 is associated with Indo-European-speaking peoples. Ancient DNA results show that to be the case, as well. No R1b-M269 in Europe west of the steppe before roughly the start of the 3rd millennium BC and then only in connection with cultures regarded as Indo-European.

Ancient DNA from the Basque country shows that before about 2500 BC the males in that area belonged to Y-DNA haplogroup I2a and carried no steppe DNA. Y-DNA haplogroup R1b-M269 and steppe DNA arrived in Iberia with the Beaker people about 2500 BC.

Modern Basques have both steppe DNA and R1b-M269. So how did that change come about while the Basques managed to hang onto a non-Indo-European language and culture?

Well, the ancient pre-Christian Basques worshipped the mother goddess Mari and had a matrilocal marriage tradition, i.e., the groom went to live with the bride's family. That sort of tradition was tailor-made for the introduction of outsider DNA (in this case Y-DNA R1b-M269 and steppe autosomal DNA) while simultaneously preserving the Basque language and culture, since all the children were raised within the orbit of the bride's family. Add to that the reproductive luck of the draw, and you've got the current situation among the Basques.

I think it is the oldest European language, which certainly descended from a Neolithic population, while the rest of Europe adopted the language of the steppe, of course there are still some pre-Indo-European languages ​​but most of them did not survive today or rather only one survived "Basque" and are only available in loan words of today's Indo-European languages, through the marriage practice, as you have already mentioned, this pre-Indo-European language remnant could be preserved by the Basques and that for millennia compared to the Bell beakers, Celts, Romans and Visigoths really respectable

etrusco
02-14-2021, 04:18 PM
I think it is the oldest European language, which certainly descended from a Neolithic population, while the rest of Europe adopted the language of the steppe, of course there are still some pre-Indo-European languages ​​but most of them did not survive today or rather only one survived "Basque" and are only available in loan words of today's Indo-European languages, through the marriage practice, as you have already mentioned, this pre-Indo-European language remnant could be preserved by the Basques and that for millennia compared to the Bell beakers, Celts, Romans and Visigoths really respectable

It is at least as old as PIE which is obviously a european language too. It is born out at least in its archaic stage of a population of mesolithic europeans WHG/EHG that lived in the pontic steppe. In fact we need to up date the way we label ancient populations. Old europeans were precisely the IE while EEF ( mainly of aegean origin) were "new europeans".

rms2
02-14-2021, 11:44 PM
Basque have levels of R1b typical of the Bronze Age period in Iberia. If you look at outside the Basque region, the haplogroups that offset R1b are typically non-European haplogroups who settled the region post-Bronze Age. In terms of language, perhaps R1b men spoke both IE and non-IE languages as P312+ swept east to west. Perhaps Basque and related languages are just a legacy of the Neolithic farmer women. There are plenty of possibilities. It would be nice to finally see some Celtic cultural remains though. We do have a few who are R1b and some who are not R1b. They are sparse, so it would be nice to get a large treasure trove of graves.

Regarding the idea that some R1b-P312 men with steppe DNA spoke a non-IE language when they moved into Iberia: maybe, but I strongly doubt it. I think the explanation for the survival of Euskara (the Basque language) is what I mentioned before, the old Basque matrilocal marriage tradition.

Think of it this way. Who here thinks that finding R1a-Z93 among Dravidian speakers in India means some R1a-Z93 men were speaking non-IE languages when R1a-Z93 swept into South Asia? If that doesn't seem reasonable, then how did R1a-Z93 make its way into the Dravidian-speaking population?

Probably pretty much the same way R1b-P312 made its way into the Basque-speaking population: via men who married non-IE women and went to live with the bride's side of the family, where speaking the native language was the thing.

GailT
02-15-2021, 04:16 AM
Mt dna U5 and U4 seem to be the native IE mtdna with the caveat that PIE ald all the succeding cultures underwent a massive exogamy process involving EEF and CHG mtdna. If you know the frequency of basque mtdna you should check how many are U4 U5. However both are WHG lines so it is difficult to say if they are native or they arrived with steppe ancestry.

If you have full mtDNA sequences you can distinguish subclades of U5 and U4 that had a likely IE versus WHG origin. U5 is approximately 30,000 years old, so the frequency of U5 alone without subclade data does not provide any useful data. The 2014 Behar et al. paper on Basque mtDNA did not do full sequences for the U5 samples, but in some cases you can identify subclades based on the HVR results. I posted on my analysis of the Basque U5 samples here (https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?2665-U5b1f1a-in-the-Basque&highlight=U5b1f1a). There is a high frequency of U5b1f1a among the Basque that dates to a recent a founder effect, around 3000 years ago. So the high U5 frequency does not imply a WHG origin, rather, it indicates a recent founder event. I think that autosomal DNA will be more useful than mtDNA or y-DNA for studying Basque origins because of the problem with founder effects.