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drobbah
02-18-2021, 01:51 AM
66 genomes from Nubia have been sequenced.



We find that the Kulubnarti Nubians were admixed with ~43% Nilotic-related ancestry on average (individual proportions varied between ~36-54%) and the remaining ancestry reflecting a West Eurasian-related gene pool likely introduced into Nubia through Egypt, but ultimately deriving from an ancestry pool like that found in the Bronze and Iron Age Levant. The admixed ancestry at Kulubnarti reflects interactions between genetically-distinct people in northeast Africa spanning almost a millennium, with West Eurasian ancestry disproportionately associated with females, highlighting the impact of female mobility in this region.


Basically these Nubians range between Somalis (55% SSA) and modern Egyptian SSA outliers.




https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.02.17.431423v1

Ramses
02-18-2021, 02:35 AM
57% Levant Bronze age "Semitic"? alot of J1's , T's and G's ,R-L294 , alot of European Mtdna H2 and U5
Of course I expected this Result it Match the Archeological and genetical record perfectly , Get prepared for 65% or more Levantine Bronze age Nubians..

Edit:
The samples carry from 62% to 51% Eurasian ancestries with some outliers ,
this is significantly higher than found in modern nubians who carry ~40 Eurasian..Also the Uniparental DNA is overall of indication that they are not the same population..as modern nubians and some changes have occurred.
Its worth noting that the S Cemetery (The cemetery with the high J2,J1 , R-L295) is the one that has the most +60% Eurasian admixture samples.

drobbah
02-18-2021, 02:55 AM
57% Levant Bronze age "Semitic"? alot of J1's , T's and G's ,R-L294 , alot of European Mtdna H2 and U5
Of course I expected this Result it Match the Archeological and genetical record perfectly , Get prepared for 65% Levantine Bronze age Nubians..
From what those more knowledgeable than me have said, it seems even Horners can be modeled as Levant BA derived in terms of our West Eurasian ancestry on qpadm.Nothing about this surprising but I think you are getting ahead of yourself in claiming that Ancient Nubia was 65% West Eurasian.Also the authors of this study claimed that it was female mediated which means they were probably rich in E-M78/M35 lineages imo especially E-V12 & V32 alongside paternal Nilo-Saharan haplogroups of A & B.


Ancient DNA analysis of subadult specimens from these burial sites found that the mainland samples predominantly carried European and Near Eastern mtDNA clades, such as the K1, H, I5, and U1 lineages; only 36.4% of the mainland individuals belonged to African-based maternal haplogroups. By contrast, 70% of the specimens at the island burial site bore African-based clades, among which were the L2, L1 and L5 mtDNA haplogroups.

drobbah
02-18-2021, 03:02 AM
The implications of this study is the vast majority of Sudanese Arabs & Nubians weren't really impacted by the Islamization and Bedouin Arab migrations

blackflash16
02-18-2021, 03:11 AM
The implications of this study is the vast majority of Sudanese Arabs & Nubians weren't really impacted by the Islamization and Bedouin Arab migrations

We'll know more when the data is released but I think there may actually be significant Arab ancestry in modern Sudanese populations but in a mix of Kulubnarti-Like + East-Sahelian + Upper-Nile/Nilotic + Arab

Ramses
02-18-2021, 03:23 AM
From what those more knowledgeable than me have said, it seems even Horners can be modeled as Levant BA derived in terms of our West Eurasian ancestry on qpadm.Nothing about this surprising but I think you are getting ahead of yourself in claiming that Ancient Nubia was 65% West Eurasian.Also the authors of this study claimed that it was female mediated which means they were probably rich in E-M78/M35 lineages imo especially E-V12 & V32 alongside paternal Nilo-Saharan haplogroups of A & B.


Are you quoting the brief from 2016 ? why are you doing that?
This study showed this Mtdna percentages for the two Kulubnarti cemeteries
R Cemetery ~38% African 62% Eurasian Mtdna , S Cemetery 52% Eurasian Mtdna
https://i.ibb.co/1zPnRwj/image.png

Merotic to X-Group nubians also showed about 60% or higher West Eurasian Mtdna ,
Of course this all in contrast to modern nubian who carry predominantly African Nilotic Mtdna.

Mnemonics
02-18-2021, 03:50 AM
The paper also noted that the West Eurasian admixture seems female mediated when looking at the X chromosomes (57.5 vs 64.4) as well, I wonder how that happened.

Mnemonics
02-18-2021, 04:01 AM
The implications of this study is the vast majority of Sudanese Arabs & Nubians weren't really impacted by the Islamization and Bedouin Arab migrations

The paper explicitly claims the opposite. The author states that they have relatively similar PCA positions to modern Nubians, but cannot be modeled the same way.

drobbah
02-18-2021, 04:11 AM
The paper explicitly claims the opposite. The author states that they have relatively similar PCA positions to modern Nubians, but cannot be modeled the same way.
Wouldn't that mean the ancestors of the modern Nubians were more SSA than these medieval Nubians pre-arab admixture? Perhaps these Nubians were a dead end population but who knows.We will just have to wait and see

Mnemonics
02-18-2021, 04:17 AM
Wouldn't that mean the ancestors of the modern Nubians were more SSA than these medieval Nubians pre-arab admixture? Perhaps these Nubians were a dead end population but who knows.We will just have to wait and see

Could be that they gained more Nilotic and Bedouin-like ancestry, but I doubt that's the case considering that the model should still work if that were the true.

Edit: I'm a bit annoyed that they didn't include which Eurasian haplogroups were found. Is it listed anywhere? I would assume T, J, G and R are the most likely haplogroups (maybe I too since it's present in some Sudanese groups).

Michalis Moriopoulos
02-18-2021, 04:26 AM
Finally! It's here!

It will be very interesting to see if some of the SSA ancestry in Copts can be traced to these guys, as I have theorized much of their SSA affinity might have come from medieval Nubian Christians. Of course, there are other possibilities, especially if Copts also owned slaves during the Islamic period as some here have postulated.

This would really be a good time to have some modern Nubian genomes in the G25. It's a shame we don't, because then we could model them ourselves when this Kulubnarti data becomes public.

ThaYamamoto
02-18-2021, 04:51 AM
A part of me is nervous cuz they've merged Hollfelder's data as part of their final dataset so if they are using the same pipeline the samples will be of no use to the g25 like Hollfelder's Sudanese. Will have to wait and see but I'm not getting my hopes up.

Michalis Moriopoulos
02-18-2021, 05:58 AM
A part of me is nervous cuz they've merged Hollfelder's data as part of their final dataset so if they are using the same pipeline the samples will be of no use to the g25 like Hollfelder's Sudanese. Will have to wait and see but I'm not getting my hopes up.

Tell me about it. It's disheartening seeing those juicy Hollfelder samples in that Sirak spreadsheet knowing there aren't enough overlapping SNPs to include them in the G25. Copts, Nubians, Beja, Sudanese Arabs, Nuba-- talk about a hole that desperately needs to be filled.

blackflash16
02-18-2021, 06:07 AM
Could be that they gained more Nilotic and Bedouin-like ancestry, but I doubt that's the case considering that the model should still work if that were the true.

Edit: I'm a bit annoyed that they didn't include which Eurasian haplogroups were found. Is it listed anywhere? I would assume T, J, G and R are the most likely haplogroups (maybe I too since it's present in some Sudanese groups).

The Biorxiv page has supplementary information and data on the right-hand side.

Also, I can't find any attempts to model modern Sudanese as anything other than completely Kulubnarti-like, so them being referred to as not being "direct" descendants of Kulubnarti just means they might have additional African-W.Eurasian ancestry:



Present-day Nubians are not directly descended from the Christian Period people from Kulubnarti without additional admixture, attesting to the dynamic history of interaction that continues to shape the cultural and genetic landscape of Nubia.



Y-DNA


Master ID (Lab)Skeletal CodeY haplogroup in terminal mutation notation Y haplogroup in ISOGG v15.73 notationLikely Geographic Origin/Primary Distribution of Haplogroup
I6138*R101*E-GG24E1b1b1b2b3aAfrica
I19140R123LTLTWest Eurasia
I6139R124E-V22E1b1b1a1b2Africa
I19014R15E-V32E1b1b1a1a1bAfrica
I19143R150E-Z1919E1b1b1a1Africa
I6340R169T-Y31477T1a1a1a1West Eurasia
I6252R181E-Y125054E1b1b1a1a1cAfrica
I6327R196E-BY7923E1b1b1a1a1b1a1Africa
I6328R201T-L208T1a1aWest Eurasia
I19015R21E-Y161115E1b1b1a1a1cAfrica
I19132R57E-L1250E1b1b1a1b2Africa
I6250R59E-BY7923E1b1b1a1a1b1a1Africa
I6331*R93*E-GG24E1b1b1b2b3aAfrica
I19138R96E-Y125054E1b1b1a1a1cAfrica
I18508S115E-FGC14382E1b1b1a1a1b1a1Africa
I17475S144J-M92J2a1a1a2b2a1aWest Eurasia
I6332S159E-M41E2aAfrica
I18612^S16^E-Y125054E1b1b1a1a1cAfrica
I18514S182E-Y6730E1b1b1a1a1cAfrica
I6334S198G-L140G2a2b2a1West Eurasia
I18520S217J-YSC0000234J1a2a1a2d2b2b2West Eurasia
I6336S27E-Y161113E1b1b1a1a1cAfrica
I18610^S29^E-Y125054E1b1b1a1a1cAfrica
I6254S33R-L295R2a2b1b2bWest Eurasia
I17481S45E-CTS2294E1b1b1a1a1b1aAfrica
I6255S50J-M92J2a1a1a2b2a1aWest Eurasia
I6325S73J-M92J2a1a1a2b2a1aWest Eurasia
I6337S79G-L140G2a2b2a1West Eurasia
I6257S81J-BY94J1a2b2bWest Eurasia
I17482S94bG-P15G2aWest Eurasia




mtDNA


Master ID (Lab)Skeletal codeHaplogrep 2 call
I6138*R101*H2a
I19014R15H2a
I19144R164H2a
I6252R181H2a
I6253R202H2a
I19132R57H2a
I6250R59H2a
I6331*R93*H2a
I18510S136H2a
I6258S149H2a
I17451S15H2a
I18612S16H2a
I18514S182H2a
I6338S89H2a
I17473S68bHV13a
I6328R201J2a2e
I18519S208J2a2e
I6139R124K1a19
I19139R103L0a1a1
I6251R152L0a1a1
I19134R84L0a1a1
I6254S33L0a1a1
I6255S50L0a1a1
I18518S201L1b1a2a
I6334S198L1b1a2a
I17482S94bL1b1a2a
I6141R186L2a1+143A +16189T! (16192T)
I19143R150L2a1d1
I19145R173L2a1d1
I6327R196L2a1d1
I18509^S132^L2a1d1
I6324^S133^L2a1d1
I17475#S144#L2a1d1
I17449S147L2a1d1
I6332S159L2a1d1
I18520S217L2a1d1
I18522S235L2a1d1
I18538S53L2a1d1
I6256#S68a#L2a1d1
I6325S73L2a1d1
I6257S81L2a1d1
I6326S87L2a1d1
I19138R96L3b1a2
I18511S143L3f1a1
I19140R123L5a1b
I19136R94L5a1b
I17477S24L5a1b
I6337S79L5a1b
I18536S42bN1a1a
I6329R5N1b1a2
I18517S2N1b1a2
I18521S218N1b1a2
I19135R91R0a1a
I6333S17T1a7
I6330R79U1a1
I19148R195U3b
I6340R169U5b2b5
I6140R182U5b2b5
I19015R21U5b2b5
I18507S114U5b2b5
I18508S115U5b2b5
I6336S27U5b2b5
I18610S29U5b2b5
I18525S37U5b2b5
I17481S45U5b2b5
I17450S51U5b2b5

drobbah
02-18-2021, 06:44 AM
They are dominated by E-M78 and those are almost entirely lineages of E-V12.I count 6 E-V32 and 7 other subclades of V12 giving E-V12+ a total of 13 with I think only two E-V22+ samples.These Nubians fall under the E-V32 subclades that modern Sudanese & Northern Horners currently fall under

Justnotyou
02-18-2021, 11:47 AM
They are dominated by E-M78 and those are almost entirely lineages of E-V12.I count 6 E-V32 and 7 other subclades of V12 giving E-V12+ a total of 13 with I think only two E-V22+ samples.These Nubians fall under the E-V32 subclades that modern Sudanese & Northern Horners currently fall under

Also these are Christian converts Nubians. It's very interesting but I don't see anything surprising. Kulb was an active copper industry site for the ancient Egyptians, it was only later during the 5th century, after the collapse of Kush, inhabited by Christian Nubians & some Copts. If anything it illustrates a demic diffusion of an admixed community.

Justnotyou
02-18-2021, 12:07 PM
The implications of this study is the vast majority of Sudanese Arabs & Nubians weren't really impacted by the Islamization and Bedouin Arab migrations

It certainly implies that when factoring audna but it doesn't explain the sudden inflation of the Haplogroup J frequency in modern Nubians & Ja'alins...

The Saite
02-18-2021, 02:13 PM
THIS IS FANTASTIC. Although I would have appreciated more older DNA. But still it's illuminating!

One problem with the site tho, is that the Island of Kulubnarti (https://blog.britishmuseum.org/historical-city-travel-guide-kulubnarti-sudan-late-12th-century/) was firstly inhabited in the middle ages with a noted importance during and after the Christianization of Nubia via Byzantine missionaries. We have Coptic and Greek language findings along with Old Nubian attested at the area, the site was always known to have specifically two interesting cemeteries in the literature. One for the higher social statues individuals, whose results here, have an approximate of 80% E-M35 Haplogroups with the rest being T-L208 clades. Their MT-DNA is predominately West Eurasian at a rate of 60%. While the Lower status groups in the other cemetery had only 30% of E-M35 with the rest being J, G, R2 and E2. And they also enjoyed higher African MT-DNA compared to the previous !
According to the Oxford Handbook of Ancient Nubia in Pages 899 and 1015 (https://books.google.com.sa/books?id=amkLEAAAQBAJ&printsec=frontcover&hl=ar#v=onepage&q&f=false), the medieval and late antiquity Nubian states, did have a complex slave treating system. We don't even have a mention of the status (Commoners) except in some rare texts that mentioned (Slaves) and (captives) as well. It might be that slaves were turned and/or treated as (commoners) actually. Specially that there are obvious texts of important position in the state government handled up to (slaves).

Nubia at this point of history wasn't at all isolated from their Northern neighbors. Strabo mentioned a certain Roman Aelius Gallus, that attacked -as representative of Rome- the Nubians with his Egypto-Levantine Army. A certain Egyptian settlers were described by Strabo in Nubia as well. Actually among those Parental haplogroups, I'm seeing obvious Egyptian influence, in both the E-V12 non V32 lineages and the E-L1250 subclade of E-V22. U5b2b5 might be as well, I do even see My T1a7 (https://yfull.com/mtree/T1a7/) there :lol:
Other haplogroups do contain Egyptian based clusters as I see, like the G and R2 (I came across R2 upper Egyptian sample before, seems a good time now to share it's STR Markers, might be related to Iran Neolithic?).
Additionally, I see it very inappropriate to group IA Levant with the former BA Levant samples in 'one' ancestry to model these Nubians. For example the 3rd millennium BC EBA Jordonian samples are pretty close to those 600 - 300 BC Egyptians of Abusir. But they aren't close with the counterpart Iron age Levant samples at all. Even some LBA Levant individuals aren't what we call a ''continuity'' with those Jordanians without having additional shifts, no doubt the 56% of Eurasian ancestry aren't derived from one source. The existence of the Dinka-related outliers as well as the west Eurasian ones is reflecting -in my opinion- not only the heterogeneous nature of the society but also a sign of increased migratory events through times, the biggest was the Arab one in later of course and I'm expecting West African ancestry too -for reasons in Islamic age- as well as higher Dinka as you guys noted.

At the first glance of seeing the Parental haplogroups. I thought this would be something representing a continuity with the earlier Kush Kingdom (Egyptian + Local people fusion). But the samples came after a period of the Nubae migration to the area. Hence an increased of supposedly Nilotic-related ancestry should have been. We however see only 1 E2 results. But their influence is still more sensed in the Maternal side.. I don't think the phrase of "Eurasian ancestry was introduced mostly through females" is totally accurate since an earlier study in 2016 (https://www.bib.irb.hr/824672?&lang=EN&rad=824672), discovered heterogeneity in the same Kulubnarti Area (specimen dated to AD 550-800 too) where some groups had a 70% African based MT-DNA compared to others boring only 36%.

In my opinion, this study if grouped with the previous ones. Shows a Coptic and Greek (And/or Levantine groups) admixture with local pre christian era North Sudan groups. This explains the heterogeneity conclusion we had (in tested individuals of 2016) while a relative homogeneity with a still many observed outliers in current study's samples. Yet the Existence of the West Eurasian Y-DNA among the lower class is puzzling. I couldn't thought of anything but the Nubian Slave-Commoner system for it. So these might reflect earlier historical periods prior to the inhabiting of the island. The Finding of J-BY94 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-BY94/) (looks European kind of J1 that have presence in Greeks) also R2, E-CTS10880 and J1-YSC000234. Were all really unexpected to me personally. Although they could be explained. I wonder if the E-Z1919 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Z1919/) sample turned out to be E-V13 eventually. I won't be surprised, Even it's likely some sort of E-V22.
Morphology freaks should read this study in details too. For they to recognize how conflicted it is with some skeletal studies existing in the literature with really far fetched theories about them. Thanks for share, Drobbah. It made my day!

drobbah
02-18-2021, 02:40 PM
Even that E2 result might not really be Eastern Sudanic either as I think one of the Early Pastoralists had it aswell.I'm shocked at the lack of Nilo-Saharan related y-dna (A & B ), perhaps these people were admixed descendants of the original Afro-Asiatic Cushitic inhabitants of Lower Nubia.We still need older samples from other parts of Nubia,Eastern Desert and hopefully both parts of historical Egypt.

gihanga.rwanda
02-19-2021, 01:24 AM
Even that E2 result might not really be Eastern Sudanic either as I think one of the Early Pastoralists had it aswell.I'm shocked at the lack of Nilo-Saharan related y-dna (A & B ), perhaps these people were admixed descendants of the original Afro-Asiatic Cushitic inhabitants of Lower Nubia.We still need older samples from other parts of Nubia,Eastern Desert and hopefully both parts of historical Egypt.

I have the same suspicions. I suspect that the yDNA A/B lineages and excess Dinka-like ancestry in Nubians and Sudanese Arabs (the first point applies to Sudanese Copts as well) can be attributed to the Nobatae who originated in what is now Darfur; the original Nobatae might have been similar to the present day Midob (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Midob_people).

I wonder if the people of Kulubnarti, located near the border with Egypt, were more representative of the pre-Nobatae inhabitants of this part of the Nile Valley. These people lived several centuries after the Nobatae first migrated to Lower Nubia in 300-400 AD (Meroe was disestablished in 350 AD and replaced by Nobatia in 400 AD) but we should remember that the Nobatae were nomads and might not have immediately assimilated by the sedentary, riverine inhabitants. We know from ancient DNA from SE Africa and elsewhere, as well as ongoing interactions between similar groups in the Sahel, that it could take generations and even centuries for pastoralists to settle down and blend in with sedentary communities. I am no expert on ancient Sudanese history and archeology, but could the “fall” of Christian Nubia have led to the breakdown of these hypothetical barriers to genetic exchange?

Though, we’ll need more ancient DNA from Mesolithic-Meroitic Nubia to account for potential Pharaonic era gene flow into this population.

It looks like two of the unipaternal lineages (E2 and K1a) detected in the early Kenyan pastoralists are present in these Christian Nubians. It would be interesting if we can establish a relationship even though they’re separated by time and space.

gihanga.rwanda
02-19-2021, 02:19 AM
On a related note, if yDNA A remains illusive in Lower Nubia, I wonder where Cushitic related groups picked it up?

Perhaps groups like the Gumuz and Kunama were more prevalent in the Ethiopian highlands? Both groups are rich in A-M13 and we know that the Gumuz have an ancient presence in the region since they have significant Mota-related ancestry with only minor Omotic or Cushitic admixture.

Justnotyou
02-19-2021, 12:52 PM
I have the same suspicions. I suspect that the yDNA A/B lineages and excess Dinka-like ancestry in Nubians and Sudanese Arabs (the first point applies to Sudanese Copts as well) can be attributed to the Nobatae who originated in what is now Darfur; the original Nobatae might have been similar to the present day Midob (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Midob_people).

I wonder if the people of Kulubnarti, located near the border with Egypt, were more representative of the pre-Nobatae inhabitants of this part of the Nile Valley. These people lived several centuries after the Nobatae first migrated to Lower Nubia in 300-400 AD (Meroe was disestablished in 350 AD and replaced by Nobatia in 400 AD) but we should remember that the Nobatae were nomads and might not have immediately assimilated by the sedentary, riverine inhabitants. We know from ancient DNA from SE Africa and elsewhere, as well as ongoing interactions between similar groups in the Sahel, that it could take generations and even centuries for pastoralists to settle down and blend in with sedentary communities. I am no expert on ancient Sudanese history and archeology, but could the “fall” of Christian Nubia have led to the breakdown of these hypothetical barriers to genetic exchange?

Though, we’ll need more ancient DNA from Mesolithic-Meroitic Nubia to account for potential Pharaonic era gene flow into this population.

It looks like two of the unipaternal lineages (E2 and K1a) detected in the early Kenyan pastoralists are present in these Christian Nubians. It would be interesting if we can establish a relationship even though they’re separated by time and space.

Nubian history is quite interesting, the groups depending on period & even region might be pretty divergent due to the series of deminc diffusion into the region. With more genetic papers & authoritative sources I believe a similar pattern will be visible.

Lithic pre-pottery industry 30,000 BCE= Nubian complex

Lithic pottery industry 7,000BCE= Early Khartoum culture

Lithic pottery industry 5,000BCE= Abkan culture
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/299458148_Abkan_Connections_The_relationship_betwe en_the_Abkan_culture_in_the_Nile_valley_and_Early_ Nubian_sites_from_the_Laqiya_Region_Eastern_Sahara _Northwest-Sudan

Protocity Kerma= unknown.

A group/ancient Kerma culture 3000 BCE = most likely genetically similar to the Ta_seti upper Egyptians. Language family unknown.

B group = probably early Meroitic eastern Sudanic.

C group/pan grave culture 2,000BCE = the people will definitely cluster with the average modern Horner, language shifts to proto-cushitic or BEJA like.

Late Meroetic Kush 500BCE = the people still cluster with the beja but the language shifts to eastern Sudanic with loan words from proto-cushitic/beja like.

Disintegrated into 3 polities/Christian period 400CE= the language shifts to old Nubian, still eastern Sudanic. While some like these Kulubnartians still cluster genetically with the average Horner but the mtdna shifts greatly to Eurasian, meaning at least there are two different communities living adjacent to each other.

Formal Islamization 14th century= The ottomans/mamluks influence the lower Nubian kingdoms, new arabic dialects develop, later Ja'alin & some Shuwa Arabs become more prevalent, Trans-saharan slavery takes hold.

FUNJ sultanate 15th century = language remains eastern Sudanic except for the beja in the east, some of the rulers are even made up of shilluk nilotes, the mtdna of the average Nubian shifts to being overwhelmingly African. West African ancestry makes its way into the average Nubian.

20th century Sudanese culture= pro-arab shift, some Nubian languages go extinct, haplogroup J takes hold, mtdna remains overwhelmingly African like...

I bet haplogroup A & B were more prominent in the early cultures pre-1000 BCE, since pottery making noted in Sudan precede pottery making Levantines who aren't even credited for the Eurasian shift in modern East Africans, The PPNB, PPNC & even the natufians probably met these pottery makers who should be more pristine AEA & then later the Haplogroups A&B completely disappears in lower Nubians with the growth of the pan grave culture Cushites, the Christian period should have some haplogroup A & B via the migrating Noba people I mean it's even noted in modern Egyptian Copts, Khartoum Nubians who're non-Ja'alin affiliated still bare it, sennar people will undoubtedly have it if properly tested.

drobbah
02-19-2021, 01:37 PM
From what I read B-group is just an impoverished form of A-group culture.Don't know how you came to the conclusion that it was Eastern Sudanic.The A-group were most likely Cushitic speakers as some of the chiefdom names like Wawat or Irtet seem to be cushitic origin.The A-group were culturally distinct from the Naqada Egyptians so no they weren't some proto-Upper Egyptians.The A-group and some of the C-group were probably linguistically related to the Medjay (Beja ancestors) and represent a group of related languages that diverged early from the rest of the Cushitic family.

Lower Nubia during the C-group era was probably mixed.The A-group represented the Cushitic locals,there was nearby cushitic nomads (medjay) to east with a small population also living in the Libyan desert and the arrival of Eastern Sudanic speakers who scattered from Wadi Howar toward Lower Nubia which is why the C-group culture extended further south than the A-group.This is probably when the linguistic shift to Sudanic languages happened and why the later Kerma culture also spoke a Sudanic language.

In Lower Nubia's case during the c-group period, I think the vast majority maintained their cushitic intermediate profile while living alongside the more sub-saharan Sudanic migrants.Which is why throughout Nubian history there were very different depictions of the Nubians by the Egyptians as it was an ethnically heterogenous region

maroco
02-19-2021, 02:03 PM
I served some Sudanese people and The ladies phenotype was almost Spanish she looked a lot more Arab then me, what’s the highest amount of Arabian admixture Sudanese people have

Atlas
02-19-2021, 02:18 PM
I served some Sudanese people and The ladies phenotype was almost Spanish she looked a lot more Arab then me, what’s the highest amount of Arabian admixture Sudanese people have

I'd be interested in finding this out, too, going back and forth from reading that Sudanese Arabs and Nubians have experienced multiple admixture events to the conclusion that they are ancestrally similar in various ways to their ancient counterparts anyway. Although, I'm not sure phenotype is a great measure, though it is a tempting first option that many people default to- I know some individiduals who are majority (55-60+%) SSA but who can be and do get mistaken for various European and MENA ethnicities. It also happens the other way around as well, and the BBC did an article which mentioned Neguinho da Beija-Flor as a great example of this:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/6284806.stm

Justnotyou
02-19-2021, 03:25 PM
From what I read B-group is just an impoverished form of A-group culture.Don't know how you came to the conclusion that it was Eastern Sudanic.The A-group were most likely Cushitic speakers as some of the chiefdom names like Wawat or Irtet seem to be cushitic origin.The A-group were culturally distinct from the Naqada Egyptians so no they weren't some proto-Upper Egyptians.The A-group and some of the C-group were probably linguistically related to the Medjay (Beja ancestors) and represent a group of related languages that diverged early from the rest of the Cushitic family.

Lower Nubia during the C-group era was probably mixed.The A-group represented the Cushitic locals,there was nearby cushitic nomads (medjay) to east with a small population also living in the Libyan desert and the arrival of Eastern Sudanic speakers who scattered from Wadi Howar toward Lower Nubia which is why the C-group culture extended further south than the A-group.This is probably when the linguistic shift to Sudanic languages happened and why the later Kerma culture also spoke a Sudanic language.

In Lower Nubia's case during the c-group period, I think the vast majority maintained their cushitic intermediate profile while living alongside the more sub-saharan Sudanic migrants.Which is why throughout Nubian history there were very different depictions of the Nubians by the Egyptians as it was an ethnically heterogenous region

The B-group culture were essentially the A-group but with alot of new kingdom Egyptian influences like early writing, maybe some cultural influences as well such as circumcision.

There are enough scholars who do agree that the A group & B group were eastern Sudanic, I didn't mean they were proto-upper Egyptians just that genetically they'd cluster quite intriguingly close to the old kingdom upper Egyptians especially when they were under the new kingdom Egyptians.

Cushitic markers were noted with the emerging pan grave culture, can you site any authoritative sources that conclude the names prove sufficient to cluster the A & B groups with the Cushitic C-group. The A group are distinct from the C-group, there are no sources to back up your implications that they were the same people.

The C-group is the pan grave culture/Medjay, do not use the extent of each group to prove a point even the new kingdom Egyptians extended their influence further south more than the old kingdom Egyptians to areas more Sub-Saharan without needing to be more themselves political influences don't really depend on genetica alignment, A-group kushites emerged first but persevered for a long time, the kush empire emerged while both the B-group & C-group were present already, the A-group was made up of the independent ancient pre-kingdom Kerma who were rivals with the dynastic middle Egyptian kingdom & flourished in the second intermediate period, while the B-group & C-group/Medjay were under the New kingdom Egyptians, the medjay even made up a chunk of the police in New kingdom Egypt & later both the B & C groups formed the kush empire. there would be no need to distinguish the groups if they all were cushitic groups since they were prominent in almost the exact same period except the A-group who emerged earlier...

The first depictions of these early Nubians was undoubtedly more eastern Sudanic & the second depictions were of the viceroys of Kush, mixed Egyptians & Nubians. Then more depictions come later that reflect on the change I noted with the involvement of the medjay...

drobbah
02-19-2021, 03:30 PM
Never said the A group and C-group are the same people bud.I clearly said the A-group in Lower Nubia were Cushitic/Afro-Asiatic while the C-group were amalgamation of people including the previous A-group inhabitants who switched over to Sudanic languages due to an influx of Sudanic speakers who dispersed from Upper Nubia.There are many sources that show Lower Nubia was always in the Afro-Asiatic realm including lexical borrowings from a Cushitic language in the modern Nubian language which they received via another early sudanic language which had a long presence in Lower Nubia

Justnotyou
02-19-2021, 04:33 PM
Never said the A group and C-group are the same people bud.I clearly said the A-group in Lower Nubia were Cushitic/Afro-Asiatic while the C-group were amalgamation of people including the previous A-group inhabitants who switched over to Sudanic languages due to an influx of Sudanic speakers who dispersed from Upper Nubia.There are many sources that show Lower Nubia was always in the Afro-Asiatic realm including lexical borrowings from a Cushitic language in the modern Nubian language which they received via another early sudanic language which had a long presence in Lower Nubia

Modern Nubian languages are quite diverse but some definitely have links to the extinct old Nubian used around 400 CE but I'm sure every linguist will agree it still isnt enough to be used as an authoritative source to understanding the languages from 5000 years ago like the A-groups, it would however be more useful to attest to the relatively recent C-group/beja Cushites that they interacted with.

Kush was the amalgamation, the C-group culture is only relative to the medjay, those sources use the viceroys of Kush influenced B-group culture who were mixed with Egyptians & they wrote using an extinct ancient Egyptian language, definitely Afro-Asiatic.

Interesting so upper Nubians brought the eastern Sudanic language shift during the C-group culture? if you can give me just one source that collaborate with your assertions that the C-group was in fact influenced by these eastern Sudanic groups then I'll gladly accept, it makes sense but history has the C-group emerging from the red sea/east coastal Sudan/Beja territory into lower Nubia but I could be misinterpreting your excerpt.

Are we using the same time lines or even talking about the same groups? Is the debate on the C-group culture emerging or maybe Meroitic Kush emerging? fall of Kush? Christian Kush? If you're discussing any of the other groups except the C-group then yes eastern Sudanic upper Nubians made their way north.

drobbah
02-19-2021, 04:43 PM
Modern Nubian languages are quite diverse but some definitely have links to the extinct old Nubian used around 400 CE but I'm sure every linguist will agree it still isnt enough to be used as an authoritative source to understanding the languages from 5000 years ago like the A-groups, it would however be more useful to attest to the relatively recent C-group/beja Cushites that they interacted with.

Kush was the amalgamation, the C-group culture is only relative to the medjay, those sources use the viceroys of Kush influenced B-group culture who were mixed with Egyptians & they wrote using an extinct ancient Egyptian language, definitely Afro-Asiatic.

Interesting so upper Nubians brought the eastern Sudanic language shift during the C-group culture? if you can give me just one source that collaborate with your assertions that the C-group was in fact influenced by these eastern Sudanic groups then I'll gladly accept, it makes sense but history has the C-group emerging from the red sea/east coastal Sudan/Beja territory into lower Nubia but I could be misinterpreting your excerpt.

Are we using the same time lines or even talking about the same groups? Is the debate on the C-group culture emerging or maybe Meroitic Kush emerging? fall of Kush? Christian Kush? If you're discussing any of the other groups except the C-group then yes eastern Sudanic upper Nubians made their way north.
I think you are confusing the pan-grave culture which is medjay (cousins or ancestors of the Beja) and C-group culture.They are two distinct but related cultures

Justnotyou
02-19-2021, 05:36 PM
I think you are confusing the pan-grave culture which is medjay (cousins or ancestors of the Beja) and C-group culture.They are two distinct but related cultures

Really, & what defines the C-group culture?

drobbah
02-19-2021, 10:15 PM
It's interesting that the Nubian T-Y31477 falls under an "Arabian branch" just like the Somali T variant does as well.I think if more Horners,Sudanese,SE Africans and ancient African T samples come through, they would likely show that T primarily arrived via NE Africa into the Horn and not directly from the Arabian Peninsula.

I hope once the samples get released they can upload them on yfull

NetNomad
02-19-2021, 10:44 PM
Well the natufians are early Levantine farmers so I don’t understand your comment. At there time they was the most advanced civilisation so I don’t know what there is to laugh about.

They are the closest to the Natufians of all modern people, that's all.

Keneki20
02-19-2021, 11:28 PM
Well the natufians are early Levantine farmers so I don’t understand your comment. At there time they was the most advanced civilisation so I don’t know what there is to laugh about.

Natufians are often portrayed as early farmers, but that’s a bit of a mischaracterization. Overall, they are best characterized as semi-sedentary hunter-gatherers who varyingly participated in the incipient cultivation of wild cereals. So, essentially proto-agricultural, but not farming in the traditional sense.

Moderator
02-20-2021, 01:27 AM
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Angoliga
02-22-2021, 12:17 AM
... I wonder where Cushitic related groups picked it up?

Perhaps groups like the Gumuz and Kunama were more prevalent in the Ethiopian highlands? Both groups are rich in A-M13 and we know that the Gumuz have an ancient presence in the region since they have significant Mota-related ancestry with only minor Omotic or Cushitic admixture.

I've been wondering the same -- seeing moderate frequencies among north-highlanders/Ethio-Semitic speakers (Tigrinya, Beta-Israel ..) is quite perplexing, especially when glancing at *some of their TMRCA (https://www.yfull.com/tree/A-Y23655/)s with peninsular Arabs (Saudi/Yemeni/Kuwati) -- some appear to overlap Semitic expansion (~<10th century BC) but wouldn't forcibly need to be the only explanation

At the same time, >moderate A-M13 detection in some of these Semitic speakers doesn't seem to correlate well with the aggressive nature of PN expansion, let alone the added layer of Semitic expansion - what are your thoughts?

The D’Atanasio et al green-sahara paper (https://genomebiology.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s13059-018-1393-5#MOESM1)showed a strict A-M13 bifurcation between Horners (TMRCA ~8.43kybp) and a more geographically wide-spread clade among Sahelian/NW-African/Mediterranean/Great-Lake pops (TMRCA ~10.24kybp ) -- unfortunately Horner A-M13 were limited within the dataset (*Beta-Israel over-represented), and Gumuz weren't included for us to make any probable conclusions:

https://i.imgur.com/hvwK4In.png


With more regional modern/ancient resolution (Horn/South-Arabia), it'll be interesting to see how skewed of a mixed-bag we get for minor A (& B ) yDNA in Cushitic related-groups derived from :

a) back-migrating SW-Asian lineages from minor Ancestral-East African contribution (dating from the Arabian holocene humid period <10kybp)
b) direct contact from adjacent Nilo-Saharan speakers (Nara, Kunama, Gumuz..)
c) in-situ Ancestral-East African lineages which were sequestered to East-Africa as a corollary to the afmd A-M13 bifurcation (some paleohydrologic considerations here (https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?19046-Blame-it-on-the-Rain-Paleohydrologic-considerations-for-Shaping-African-Substructure&p=624750&viewfull=1#post624750)). As you've mentioned, Gumuz might be a good candidate for further investigation, especially given that they're linguistically considered an isolate within the NS-family... they might have more chance of showing pre-PN Ethiopian-highland type yDNA

Samuel7312
02-22-2021, 11:38 PM
So is it possible to use these samples in global25?

ThaYamamoto
02-23-2021, 12:09 AM
So is it possible to use these samples in global25?

Hopefully they should be yeah, they should be with us soon.

Samuel7312
03-02-2021, 10:45 PM
any luck anyone with getting these sent to david?????

Lupriac
03-25-2021, 08:28 PM
It's interesting that the Nubian T-Y31477 falls under an "Arabian branch" just like the Somali T variant does as well.I think if more Horners,Sudanese,SE Africans and ancient African T samples come through, they would likely show that T primarily arrived via NE Africa into the Horn and not directly from the Arabian Peninsula.

I hope once the samples get released they can upload them on yfull

What's your take on E-V12>CTS693? Is it an ancient presence among Nubians and other East Africans or more recent (sample relative) Egyptian ancestry?

drobbah
03-25-2021, 08:46 PM
What's your take on E-V12>CTS693? Is it an ancient presence among Nubians and other East Africans or more recent (sample relative) Egyptian ancestry?
The only V12 lineage that exists so far in Horners is E-V32, tbh haven't seen non-V32 V12 subclades amongst the Cushitic Sudanese Beja either.Maybe it's an indigenous lineage to the Nile Valley (Nubia & Egypt) and not the Eastern Desert/Red Sea hills.

beyoku
03-27-2021, 12:16 AM
^Check out the E-V12 in the Hirbo thesis.

drobbah
03-28-2021, 04:36 PM
^Check out the E-V12 in the Hirbo thesis.
Won't be of much help considering they didn't split up E-V12 besides between V32,V12* and E-M224.The only groups in that thesis that carried V12*+ were the Yaaku,Aweer,Iraqw & the Baggara Arabs of Sudan.Perhaps V12 subclades that weren't E-V32 arrived with the Proto-Cushitic tribes but just weren't successful in the Horn but managed to survive in East Africa (Kenya & Tanzania).