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DMXX
08-29-2012, 03:39 PM
(Full discussions on R2a-M124 subclade discovery can found in the Digging into Haplogroup R2 (Y-DNA) forum (http://r2dna.org/index.php?board=2.0), run by our esteemed friend UnderGrounder, the Y-DNA R2 FTDNA Project admin.)


http://r2dna.org/R2-Images/R2-Tree-2011.jpg


R2a1-L295 is the most effective SNP to date at splitting R2a-M124 participants. (L295+, L295-)



http://i40.tinypic.com/23ih24o.jpg


R2a2-L263 is restricted around Anatolia at present (Armenian and Greek from Asia Minor).
R2a3-L1069 is currently specific to Kuwait. The STR diversity among these samples is quite small indicating a recent founder.
SNP's M367.2 & M368.2 (future R2a5?) are the current focus on the WTY R2 forum. Both were found in an Azeri Iranian who underwent the WTY test. UnderGrounder currently feels M367.2 sits below M368.2 phylogenetically based on current results. I (Azeri Iranian paternal ancestry) and Birko19 (Assyrian from southern Anatolia) have ordered both.

parasar
09-18-2013, 04:51 AM
From YFull
https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B-b3KeGG3Un1U2I2SW9Md3BQWDg/edit?pli=1
http://www.yfull.com/tree/R2/

seferhabahir
09-18-2013, 05:30 AM
From YFull
https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B-b3KeGG3Un1U2I2SW9Md3BQWDg/edit?pli=1
http://www.yfull.com/tree/R2/

So what might this mean for SNPs F1092, F1159, F1758, and F3604 which seem to be the ones that Jewish Group A (L295- L288-) people seem to have? Do any of these four SNPs show up in the YFull kits that are L295- L263- L1069- ?

redifflal
10-22-2014, 08:41 PM
I think I'm the only R2A3 on the WTY project there. I've tested negative for L295 and only one positive for F813.

Tomasso29
10-22-2014, 09:07 PM
I think I'm the only R2A3 on the WTY project there. I've tested negative for L295 and only one positive for F813.

Though L295 is the most dominant form of R2a in South Asia, there are a lot of L295- as well. Most of them tend to be on the northern parts of India and Pakistan but there are small numbers in South India too.

Is R2a3 supposed to be F813+, if that's an established SNP more people need to test for it, specially people from South Asia.

redifflal
10-24-2014, 04:01 PM
Though L295 is the most dominant form of R2a in South Asia, there are a lot of L295- as well. Most of them tend to be on the northern parts of India and Pakistan but there are small numbers in South India too.

Is R2a3 supposed to be F813+, if that's an established SNP more people need to test for it, specially people from South Asia.

I think R2A3 is supposed to be L1069+. Didn't see anything about F813+. But Abdul Aziz on the WTY classified me as a R2A3, and apparently I'm the only R2A3 there. I looked through my ftDNA tests and L1069 wasn't tested. Unless F813+ means L1069+, no idea.

seferhabahir
10-24-2014, 07:49 PM
I think R2A3 is supposed to be L1069+. Didn't see anything about F813+. But Abdul Aziz on the WTY classified me as a R2A3, and apparently I'm the only R2A3 there. I looked through my ftDNA tests and L1069 wasn't tested. Unless F813+ means L1069+, no idea.

F813 is ChrY: 6716850 G>A

L1069 is ChrY: 7593759 A>T

FTDNA puts F813 at the same level as L295, F1092 and L288 in their tree (for ISOGG purposes, R2a1 is L295, R2a2 is L263, R2a3 is L1069, and if we ever get around to it, R2a4 ought to be F1092). It is too bad that FTDNA is using a different scheme. For FTDNA, R2a1 is L295, R2a2 is F1092, R2a3 is F813, R2a4 is L288

redifflal
10-24-2014, 07:58 PM
F813 is ChrY: 6716850 G>A

L1069 is ChrY: 7593759 A>T

FTDNA puts F813 at the same level as L295, F1092 and L288 in their tree (for ISOGG purposes, R2a1 is L295, R2a2 is L263, R2a3 is L1069, and if we ever get around to it, R2a4 ought to be F1092). It is too bad that FTDNA is using a different scheme. For FTDNA, R2a1 is L295, R2a2 is F1092, R2a3 is F813, R2a4 is L288

Thanks. So if I'm getting this right, there's disagreement on which SNP to should be used to classify as R2a*, R2a2, R2a3 and R2a4, since R2a1 seems to be defined with the L295+ across the board. A question I have is based on mutation rates, how come geneticists can predict the date when R came from P, when P came from K(xLT), but not say when R2a came from R2, when R2a3 came from R2a, etc. Or can they and I just haven't come across that information yet.

seferhabahir
10-24-2014, 11:33 PM
FTDNA used the information from Geno 2.0 tests to construct their tree and pretty much ignored everything else. A more representative tree using new NGS results would be something like this...

R2 (M479)
....R2*
....R2a (M124)
........R2a*
........R2a1 (FGC12586)
............R2a1*
............R2a1a (PF7499)
................R2a1a*
................R2a1a1 (L295)
................R2a1a2 (L1069)
............R2a1b (L288)
........R2a2 (F1092, F1159, F3604)
............R2a2*
............R2a2a (F1758)

I am not sure where L263 and F813 are placed in relation to PF7499. See the charts in the following thread on the R2.dna.org forum.

http://r2dna.org/index.php?topic=756.45

seferhabahir
11-10-2014, 10:00 PM
Anybody know what happened to the Digging into Haplogroup R2 (Y-DNA) forum ??

http://r2dna.org

The host server seems to be saying that forum site has been suspended or removed...

seferhabahir
11-10-2014, 10:26 PM
So I guess I will post here, as it seems the r2dna.org site has disappeared from the web.

Based on results of two Big Y test results, the following SNPs differentiate between two Eastern European Ashkenazi subgroups under SNP F1758 (R2a2a in FTDNA tree-speak):

A F1758 subgroup with DYS447=25:

FGC13195 (hg19 location 9,485,615 with mutation A>G)
FGC13214 (hg19 location 15,990,243 with mutation G>T)
FGC13223 (hg19 location 18,062,902 with mutation C>T)

A F1758 subgroup with DYS447=26:

SNP A691 (hg19 location 7,730,230 with mutation T>C)
SNP A692 (hg19 location 23,196,937 with mutation A>T)

These two groups have a single common ancestor who diverged (perhaps around 1500 years ago) from a larger Middle Eastern origins R2 F1758 clade that includes several Mizrachis, a Kuwaiti, and an Iranian. This is yet another story that could be linked to Helena of Adiabene if one were so inclined. She was probably Iranic or Zoroastrian and became a convert in 30 CE, and it is noteworthy that the F1758+ Iranian has ancestry from Yazd, a center of Zoroastrian culture. Out of all the Adiabene haplogroup scenarios, this one actually makes some sense based on the SNP analysis and likely chronology.

DMXX
11-23-2014, 04:15 PM
The R2-M124-WTY forum has been down for several days. (http://r2dna.org/cgi-sys/suspendedpage.cgi?topic=97.5;wap2) Have we lost it? I was a "super moderator" there but was given no advanced warning regarding this when I last checked a week ago. I hope it returns. Was a regular fixture for our small R2 enthusiast's group.

Tomasso29
02-11-2015, 12:52 AM
It's unfortunate that the R2 forum went down, not sure what happened to Undergrounder but until something is resolved, we might as well add updates. Anyways, I had noticed this link:

https://sites.google.com/site/compositeytree/r2

It shows that L295+ is now supposed to be R2a1a, is FGC18148 (R2a1) a newly discovered SNP?

DMXX
02-11-2015, 10:01 AM
You probably have a better handle on this than me Tomasso, but what is the current distribution of R2a*-M124(xL295) looking like? Is L295 still looking like the major schism within R2a?

Tomasso29
02-11-2015, 11:13 PM
You probably have a better handle on this than me Tomasso, but what is the current distribution of R2a*-M124(xL295) looking like? Is L295 still looking like the major schism within R2a?

Unfortunately I lost the maps I had on Google, so I started with Excel maps instead, this is still a working progress but so far these are the latest L295- (Still more to add):

http://s11.postimg.org/ytwczmrr5/R2a.jpg

DMXX
02-17-2015, 11:03 PM
Thanks Tomasso; unfortunately the image link is broken. Has it been uploaded anywhere else? Thanks again.

Our old R2 forum (http://www.r2dna.org/) looks like it's still down. We'll probably have to accept it's permanently gone. Massive shame. Would've liked to have salvaged a few posts from there.

Tomasso29
02-17-2015, 11:51 PM
I guess this forum has some bugs with Google Chrome, anyways, I just used Firefox, do you see the map attached?

The distribution is kind of interesting even though it's an FTDNA project. I will make another map for those who are positive to L295.

I think based on the latest studies one has to think that R2 is probably a lot younger than R1 and it must have originated when R was on its way down from Siberia or Central Asia.

3799

DMXX
02-17-2015, 11:53 PM
Yes, I can see this map. Looks great!

Out of curiosity, are the East European L295-'s of Ashkenazi background?

Tomasso29
02-18-2015, 12:03 AM
Yes, I can see this map. Looks great!

Out of curiosity, are the East European L295-'s of Ashkenazi background?

Yea most of those Eastern Europeans are Ashkenazi with the exception of two Slovakian samples. Those to the west of Europe however are not Jewish as far as I know (Maybe one of the Spanish samples might be though).

With the evidence we have, the Ashkenazi samples are from the same line as the Iraqi/Iranian Jews, and there's also a shared ancestry with other non-Jewish samples in the Middle East (Iran and Kuwait).

newtoboard
02-18-2015, 12:21 AM
I guess this forum has some bugs with Google Chrome, anyways, I just used Firefox, do you see the map attached?

The distribution is kind of interesting even though it's an FTDNA project. I will make another map for those who are positive to L295.

I think based on the latest studies one has to think that R2 is probably a lot younger than R1 and it must have originated when R was on its way down from Siberia or Central Asia.

3799

I wonder why yfull suggests the opposite (R2 being older than R1).

seferhabahir
02-18-2015, 02:20 AM
Yea most of those Eastern Europeans are Ashkenazi with the exception of two Slovakian samples.

With the evidence we have, the Ashkenazi samples are from the same line as the Iraqi/Iranian Jews, and there's also a shared ancestry with other non-Jewish samples in the Middle East (Iran and Kuwait).

I believe this is all correct. The two Slovakian samples share F1092, F1159, F3604 but do not have F1758. The Iranian and Kuwaiti samples have all four SNPs, as do the Eastern European Ashkenazi and Mizrachi Jews. I need to go back and look at all of this again. Since the web site went down, I have not been paying as much attention. However, I now have a Mizrachi Big Y test result in hand and some of UnderGrounder's old spreadsheets where he was comparing known Big Y results for R2 testers. I'll see what I can uncover with regard to additional common SNPs shared between the Mizrachi result and the two Ashkenazi results.

Tomasso29
02-18-2015, 02:50 AM
I wonder why yfull suggests the opposite (R2 being older than R1).

Where did you see them suggest that? Here's what I see:

http://www.yfull.com/tree/A0-T/

They have both R1 and R2 being formed at 27800 years ago. Furthermore they have R2a at 10600 years ago while R1a and R1b at 22400 ybp.

I do take these dates with a grain of salt but if modern distribution and spread has anything to do with it, I say it's probably younger than R1.

seferhabahir
02-18-2015, 08:10 AM
I believe this is all correct. The two Slovakian samples share F1092, F1159, F3604 but do not have F1758. The Iranian and Kuwaiti samples have all four SNPs, as do the Eastern European Ashkenazi and Mizrachi Jews. I need to go back and look at all of this again. Since the web site went down, I have not been paying as much attention. However, I now have a Mizrachi Big Y test result in hand and some of UnderGrounder's old spreadsheets where he was comparing known Big Y results for R2 testers. I'll see what I can uncover with regard to additional common SNPs shared between the Mizrachi result and the two Ashkenazi results.

A cursory look at the R2 Big Y results seem to indicate that there are 55 high quality SNPs shared between the Ashkenazi and Mizrachi testers that are not shared with any other R2 Big Y results (mostly L1069 which is L295-) and 16 high quality SNPs that only appear in the Mizrachi result not shared by the Ashkenazi results. This would seem to indicate that this Mizrachi/Ashkenazi lineage has 71 high quality SNPs unique to their R2 F1092 lineage (and this would need to include the two Slovakian F1092 results as well as the Kuwaiti and Iranian F1092 results until there is more information).

Using 125 years per Big Y high reliability SNP (I have no idea what the latest thinking is, but I will use this number), then F1092/F1159/F3604 might be about 8875 years ago (125x71), and the split of the Ashkenazi lineage from Mizrachi lineage might be about 2000 years ago (125x16). If you look at my earlier post in this thread, I said the Queen Helena of Adiabene conversion took place then. Not that it really has anything to do with the Mizrachi/Ashkenazi divergence, but if it did it would fit nicely with these dates, with some of her descendents going the way of the Jewish Diaspora and some of her descendents maybe going back to Persia after the destruction of the second temple. This estimated date of Ashkenazi/Mizrachi divergence is intriguing.

Anyway, it looks to me that F1092 is one of the older clades of R-M124 at almost 9000 years old and pretty isolated from the rest of M124. It maybe could have played a role in the R2 found in that small group of Sinti Romani sampled by Spencer Wells, but that is pure conjecture. I suggested on the old R2 forum that eastern Slovakia (where the two F1092 non-F1758 ancestors lived) has a reasonably high proportion of Romani and that perhaps those two ended up there somehow. Most Romani are H-M82, and I think Romani mostly left India 1500 years ago and headed into Europe. A few might have been F1092xF1758.

Tomasso29
02-18-2015, 04:27 PM
A cursory look at the R2 Big Y results seem to indicate that there are 55 high quality SNPs shared between the Ashkenazi and Mizrachi testers that are not shared with any other R2 Big Y results (mostly L1069 which is L295-) and 16 high quality SNPs that only appear in the Mizrachi result not shared by the Ashkenazi results. This would seem to indicate that this Mizrachi/Ashkenazi lineage has 71 high quality SNPs unique to their R2 F1092 lineage (and this would need to include the two Slovakian F1092 results as well as the Kuwaiti and Iranian F1092 results until there is more information).

Using 125 years per Big Y high reliability SNP (I have no idea what the latest thinking is, but I will use this number), then F1092/F1159/F3604 might be about 8875 years ago (125x71), and the split of the Ashkenazi lineage from Mizrachi lineage might be about 2000 years ago (125x16). If you look at my earlier post in this thread, I said the Queen Helena of Adiabene conversion took place then. Not that it really has anything to do with the Mizrachi/Ashkenazi divergence, but if it did it would fit nicely with these dates, with some of her descendents going the way of the Jewish Diaspora and some of her descendents maybe going back to Persia after the destruction of the second temple. This estimated date of Ashkenazi/Mizrachi divergence is intriguing.

Anyway, it looks to me that F1092 is one of the older clades of R-M124 at almost 9000 years old and pretty isolated from the rest of M124. It maybe could have played a role in the R2 found in that small group of Sinti Romani sampled by Spencer Wells, but that is pure conjecture. I suggested on the old R2 forum that eastern Slovakia (where the two F1092 non-F1758 ancestors lived) has a reasonably high proportion of Romani and that perhaps those two ended up there somehow. Most Romani are H-M82, and I think Romani mostly left India 1500 years ago and headed into Europe. A few might have been F1092xF1758.

I highly doubt that the Sinti brought F1092 to the Ashkenazi communities in Eastern Europe, that is unless the ancestors of the Sinti were responsible for F1092 among the Middle Eastern samples. The fact that Ashkenazi and Mizrachi Jews share unique SNPs under F1092 should be a crystal clear evidence that the source of the Ashkenazi R2a comes from the Middle East and very likely from an Iranian Jewish background via the Caucasus.

I remember reading an older study on Mountain Jews where they had 16% R2a, the study did not mention anything about deeper SNPs like F1092 but considering that they speak a dialect of Persian rather than a Caucasian language pretty much means that this was a Jewish group that migrated from Iran, from there some might have migrated to Eastern Europe and mixed with Ashkenazi Jews.

As for the Slovakian samples, I guess it is possible that their background is Roma but then again the same could be said about the second Jewish cluster (L288+) or any other small European R2a group. Personally I think all bets are off until we have further evidence on the Roma R2a. The fact that the lineage is very rare among them could also indicate that they picked up R2a rather than brought it with them. I understand that the Sinti tested very high but do keep in mind that the people tested were descendants of a Sinti group that was deported to Uzbekistan from Central Europe, so it's most likely their R2a is high in numbers due to mixing within their small community.

seferhabahir
02-18-2015, 05:15 PM
I highly doubt that the Sinti brought F1092 to the Ashkenazi communities in Eastern Europe, that is unless the ancestors of the Sinti were responsible for F1092 among the Middle Eastern samples. The fact that Ashkenazi and Mizrachi Jews share unique SNPs under F1092 should be a crystal clear evidence that the source of the Ashkenazi R2a comes from the Middle East and very likely from an Iranian Jewish background via the Caucasus.

I wasn't really implying any specific relationship between Sinti and Ashkenazi other than possibly sharing F1092 from a long ago ancestor, who could have also been an ancient Indian ancestor of the Iranian Jewish lineage as well. I only threw it out there because of the two F1092xF1758 samples we know about.

I think the much more interesting question would be the route taken into Eastern Europe from the Middle East that isolated the Ashkenazi and Mizrachi lineages, and there could have been more than one. I think Bennett Greenspan would tend to agree with your Caucasus route because he believes one of the more plausible possibilities is that the Khazarian empire imported Babylonian sages to help run their talmudic schools for newly converted Jews. Until the end of the Geonic period, the center of Jewish life was in Babylonia and there are many routes that could have been taken out of Babylonia into Europe. Besides a Caucasus route, they could have been part of the earliest Jewish settlements in Europe in France and Germany. Jewish communities needed sages from Babylonia (such as the Makhir of Narbonne, who was said to have started a Jewish academy there in the 8th century CE).

There are some subtle distinctions within the Ashkenazi F1092 cluster, such as variation in the DYS447 STR values (either 25 or 26) that could be indicative of two different lineages from two different routes. But I agree that the evidence is crystal clear that the source of Ashkenazi R2a (at least the F1092 variety) comes from the Middle East.

seferhabahir
02-18-2015, 05:32 PM
There are some subtle distinctions within the Ashkenazi F1092 cluster, such as variation in the DYS447 STR values (either 25 or 26) that could be indicative of two different lineages from two different routes. But I agree that the evidence is crystal clear that the source of Ashkenazi R2a (at least the F1092 variety) comes from the Middle East.

I should add here that Babylonian sages also went back and forth to Roman Judea during the Mishnaic and Talmudic period, so it is possible that the Ashkenazi group could have spent a long time in the Middle East separated from their Babylonian ancestors before taking any of these proposed routes into Europe. Many Mizrachi R2 have a family tradition of an unbroken 2500 years living in Persia/Iran.

seferhabahir
02-19-2015, 09:25 PM
A cursory look at the R2 Big Y results seem to indicate that there are 55 high quality SNPs shared between the Ashkenazi and Mizrachi testers that are not shared with any other R2 Big Y results (mostly L1069 which is L295-) and 16 high quality SNPs that only appear in the Mizrachi result not shared by the Ashkenazi results. This would seem to indicate that this Mizrachi/Ashkenazi lineage has 71 high quality SNPs unique to their R2 F1092 lineage (and this would need to include the two Slovakian F1092 results as well as the Kuwaiti and Iranian F1092 results until there is more information).

Using 125 years per Big Y high reliability SNP (I have no idea what the latest thinking is, but I will use this number), then F1092/F1159/F3604 might be about 8875 years ago (125x71), and the split of the Ashkenazi lineage from Mizrachi lineage might be about 2000 years ago (125x16).

On further examination, it looks like Group A1 Ashkenazi under F1758 has 15 SNPs not found in the Mizrachi Big Y, and Group A2 Ashkenazi under F1758 has 14 SNPs not found in the Mizrachi Big Y, consistent with the 16 unique Mizrachi SNPs not found in Ashkenazi results. There were a couple of SNPs identified in the Group A1 results in an unreliable region from 22,216,800 to 22,512,940 (DYZ19/125bp repeat) that I threw out and did not consider. There are 12 SNPs in common (out of 14 and 15) for the two Ashknenazi Big Y results not found in the Mizrachi Big Y which supports a TMRCA for them of perhaps 500 years ago, which makes perfect sense as they are GD 4 for 67 markers. However, many F1758 Ashkenazi kits are GD 7 or more at 67 markers with variability on several slow moving STRs, and that might support evidence of more than one R2 males leaving the Middle East for Europe via various routes. Probably most people from this F1758 line did not leave the area, since at 37 markers, the Mizrachi kit has Y-DNA matches only from the Middle East.

Humanist
02-26-2015, 08:08 PM
An Iranian Jewish member of R2 appears to be included in this sheet of samples of high coverage Y data: Y_data_metainfo.xlsx (http://evolbio.ut.ee/chrY/Y_data_metainfo.xlsx)

See here (http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2015/02/estonian-biocentre-high-coverage-y.html) for more about the study.

Tomasso29
02-26-2015, 10:20 PM
An Iranian Jewish member of R2 appears to be included in this sheet of samples of high coverage Y data: Y_data_metainfo.xlsx (http://evolbio.ut.ee/chrY/Y_data_metainfo.xlsx)

See here (http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2015/02/estonian-biocentre-high-coverage-y.html) for more about the study.

Thanks for providing that, I know this is OT but I noticed that the R1a among Asians is labeled as R1a2, is that the new labeling for Z93?

jdonofrio
02-28-2015, 11:47 PM
It's unfortunate that the R2 forum went down, not sure what happened to Undergrounder but until something is resolved, we might as well add updates. Anyways, I had noticed this link:

https://sites.google.com/site/compositeytree/r2

It shows that L295+ is now supposed to be R2a1a, is FGC18148 (R2a1) a newly discovered SNP?

Hello Tomasso and other R2 people here,

I am also unsure what happened to Undergrounder and the R2dna.org site. It went offline a few months ago, and hasn't yet returned. I recently was part of the full sequence pilot program at Full Genomes Corporation (which provides a full sequence for Y, X, mt, and all 22 autosomal).

I tried to join the R2 group at FGC (also administered by Undergrounder (Abdulaziz Ali) but the request bounced. He was always very helpful and responsive, so I'm not sure what happened to him. I'm a bit concerned since he was quite a knowledgeable resource. I've put in a request to be an administrator to the R2 group at FGC.

On a more positive note, I now have the FGC and YFull results for my Y-DNA. FGC placed me at R-L295 (R2a1), and YFull placed me at R-Y1280*, which is a branch below R-L295. (Userid at YFull is YF02834). There's one other sequence on my terminal branch (from the Human Genome Project, HG03978) who has an ancestry of Telugu Indian. This is consistent with maps showing an R2 origin in the Andhra Pradesh region of India.

It's interesting to me since my family's paternal ancestry is from southern Italy since at least the late 1700's. I'd be interested in finding out if the migration occurred relatively recently (~1400's Indian/gypsy migration, or later), during the Roman era, or during some Indo-European migration wave. My guess is that it was a more recent migration, due to the limited number of R2's in Europe.

I'm hoping that as more people have their Y-DNA sequenced I will be able to compare SNPs at a detailed level (similar to genetic distance with STRs). Anyone who would like to compare thoughts or ideas on how best to do this, feel free to contact me.

Thanks,
Jeff

newtoboard
02-28-2015, 11:52 PM
Hello Tomasso and other R2 people here,

I am also unsure what happened to Undergrounder and the R2dna.org site. It went offline a few months ago, and hasn't yet returned. I recently was part of the full sequence pilot program at Full Genomes Corporation (which provides a full sequence for Y, X, mt, and all 22 autosomal).

I tried to join the R2 group at FGC (also administered by Undergrounder (Abdulaziz Ali) but the request bounced. He was always very helpful and responsive, so I'm not sure what happened to him. I'm a bit concerned since he was quite a knowledgeable resource. I've put in a request to be an administrator to the R2 group at FGC.

On a more positive note, I now have the FGC and YFull results for my Y-DNA. FGC placed me at R-L295 (R2a1), and YFull placed me at R-Y1280*, which is a branch below R-L295. (Userid at YFull is YF02834). There's one other sequence on my terminal branch (from the Human Genome Project, HG03978) who has an ancestry of Telugu Indian. This is consistent with maps showing an R2 origin in the Andhra Pradesh region of India.

It's interesting to me since my family's paternal ancestry is from southern Italy since at least the late 1700's. I'd be interested in finding out if the migration occurred relatively recently (~1400's Indian/gypsy migration, or later), during the Roman era, or during some Indo-European migration wave. My guess is that it was a more recent migration, due to the limited number of R2's in Europe.

I'm hoping that as more people have their Y-DNA sequenced I will be able to compare SNPs at a detailed level (similar to genetic distance with STRs). Anyone who would like to compare thoughts or ideas on how best to do this, feel free to contact me.

Thanks,
Jeff

You don't really think R2 originated anywhere near Andhra Pradesh right? I don't think anybody does.

Humanist
03-01-2015, 02:21 AM
Hello Tomasso and other R2 people here...

Welcome to the forum, jdonofrio. :) What is the frequency of R2 in S Italy and Sicily? I know that some other infrequent European haplogroups, like Q1b are also found in S Italy and Sicily.

jdonofrio
03-01-2015, 06:06 PM
You don't really think R2 originated anywhere near Andhra Pradesh right? I don't think anybody does.

I probably should not have used the term “origin”, but rather “concentrations”, due to the reasonably high frequencies of R2 found in Andhra Pradesh. I am hoping to find a much more recent “origin” (last 1000-2000 years ago) for my specific branch (R-L295 and R-Y1280*, aka R2a1) that may have migrated into Europe, where R2 is very uncommon.

Since I’m not a population geneticist, I don’t really know of the actual origins for R2. If you have better information, please let me know. I’ve seen R2’s origins stated in a number of places:
• Manoukian’s paper (2006) refers to origins in “Central Asia around 25,000 years ago”.
• Sahoo’s paper on a Prehistory of Indian Y Chromosome (2006) says “The distribution of R2, with its concentration in Eastern and Southern India, is not consistent with a recent demographic movement from the northwest. Instead, its prevalence among castes in these regions might represent a recent population expansion, perhaps associated with the transition to agriculture, which may have occurred independently in South Asia.
• Sengupta’s Polarity and Temporality paper (2006) states haplogroup “R2-M124 occurs with a frequency of 9.3% in India, consistent with 8% - 10% reported elsewhere. The decreasing frequencies of R2 – from 7.4% in Pakistan to 3.8% in Central Asia to 1% in Turkey – is consistent with the pattern observed for the autochthonous Indian H1-M52 haplogroup.” This implies R2 is indigenous to India.
• Sengupta’s Figure 4, on page 213, also has R2 frequency and R2 variance heat maps. The hot spot for YSTR variance is the West Bengal area, with a secondary and much smaller area in Andhra Pradesh.

All of these papers are from 2006 and I’m sure there has been some further research done on R2, especially as full sequencing gets more popular. YFull’s R-M479 (R2) tree contains 31 samples from the 1000 Genomes project: 12 Indian Telugus, 6 Punjabis, 5 Gujaratis, 3 Sri Lankan Tamils, 3 Bengali from Bangladesh, and 2 Quataris. So the highest concentration, at least for that small sample set, is Telugu from Andhra Pradesh.

My goal is to see if I can learn anything about the route that my R2 branch traveled. My best guess is essentially a straight line northwest: Start in Andhra Pradesh, through Brahui (Dravidian) region of Baluchistan (my father has a 6.8% Baloch component using the Harappa World admixture tool), through Anatolia, to Albania (see Arberesche migration – we have the surname “Albanese” in our paternal family tree, and there is an Arberesche village 70km from the region where they settled in southern Italy), and have been in Italy since at least the late 1700s. Just my guess but I'm open to other ideas.

jdonofrio
03-01-2015, 06:23 PM
Welcome to the forum, jdonofrio. :) What is the frequency of R2 in S Italy and Sicily? I know that some other infrequent European haplogroups, like Q1b are also found in S Italy and Sicily.

Thanks, Humanist. Glad to be here, hope to enjoy the discussions, and learn a few things too.

R2 is really almost non-existent in Italy. Technically it's not even considered a European haplogroup. The Italy DNA Project has just 2 out of 1290 participants... so less than 2/10ths of a percent.
https://www.familytreedna.com/public/Italy?iframe=ycolorized

The administrator to the DNA project also has a blog, and mentions the infrequency of R2 in this posting:
http://italydna.blogspot.com/2006/11/haplogroup-r2.html

The Sinti angle is interesting, and is a possibility for how at least some R2 hg's arrived.

seferhabahir
03-01-2015, 08:15 PM
An Iranian Jewish member of R2 appears to be included in this sheet of samples of high coverage Y data: Y_data_metainfo.xlsx (http://evolbio.ut.ee/chrY/Y_data_metainfo.xlsx)

See here (http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2015/02/estonian-biocentre-high-coverage-y.html) for more about the study.

I'm going to download the Y-DNA data for this individual and see what I can find out by comparing to the Mizrachi and Ashkenazi Big Y results...

Tomasso29
03-02-2015, 11:19 PM
Good to have you among us jdonofrio :)


The Sinti angle is interesting, and is a possibility for how at least some R2 hg's arrived.

I would hold off on that until further studies are done on the Sinti population. Based on all of the Roma studies I have seen R2 seems rare among them, and even with that we don't know whether the R2 is L295 positive or negative. The Sinti you're referring to from the Spencer Wells study should be taken with a grain of salt considering the sample they had.

seferhabahir
03-12-2015, 05:24 PM
An Iranian Jewish member of R2 appears to be included in this sheet of samples of high coverage Y data: Y_data_metainfo.xlsx (http://evolbio.ut.ee/chrY/Y_data_metainfo.xlsx)

See here (http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2015/02/estonian-biocentre-high-coverage-y.html) for more about the study.


I'm going to download the Y-DNA data for this individual and see what I can find out by comparing to the Mizrachi and Ashkenazi Big Y results...

From what I can see, this person appears to be L263 and not F1092, so there are no SNPs in common with the known Mizrachi and Ashkenazi Big Y results. Oh well... :\

seferhabahir
03-23-2015, 11:50 PM
I'm looking at the latest YFull tree with ages based on their recent paper. The kit on the oldest branch of their R2 tree (listed as R-M479*) is one of the Ashkenazi testers, so by implication it represents F1092 which also includes the Mizrachi testers. I said in a previous post that F1092 represents one of the oldest R2 branches and might be 9000 ybp. The YFull estimated age for this branch is 9600 ybp so that is not too far off. This means that F1092 split off from the rest of present day R2 a very long time ago, and on a completely different lineage. This might mean the lineage that eventually leads to the Mizrachi (and then later Ashkenazi) group followed a very different geographic route than the one(s) that went into the Indian subcontinent. For that matter, it might also be much different than the one that leads to L1069+ (yet another L295- line).

parasar
03-24-2015, 01:12 AM
I'm looking at the latest YFull tree with ages based on their recent paper. The kit on the oldest branch of their R2 tree (listed as R-M479*) is one of the Ashkenazi testers, so by implication it represents F1092 which also includes the Mizrachi testers. I said in a previous post that F1092 represents one of the oldest R2 branches and might be 9000 ybp. The YFull estimated age for this branch is 9600 ybp so that is not too far off. This means that F1092 split off from the rest of present day R2 a very long time ago, and on a completely different lineage. This might mean the lineage that eventually leads to the Mizrachi (and then later Ashkenazi) group followed a very different geographic route than the one(s) that went into the Indian subcontinent. For that matter, it might also be much different than the one that leads to L1069+ (yet another L295- line).

Do you mean R2a?

F1092 is under M124.
And M124 is one of the (at least two) lines under M479 in the subcontinent.

seferhabahir
03-24-2015, 06:20 AM
Do you mean R2a?

Yes, sorry. I meant R2a and R-M124, as in M479>M124>F1092>F1758. Not sure how many years between F1092 and F1758.

Tomasso29
03-25-2015, 09:04 PM
Do you mean R2a?

F1092 is under M124.
And M124 is one of the (at least two) lines under M479 in the subcontinent.

While I do think that further testing needs to be done on R2, it does seem like the majority of M124 in the subcontinent falls under L295. F1092 is a sibling to L295 and is absent from South Asia so far. In the R2-WTY project L295 makes up 70% of the tested South Asian samples, these are found all over India and Pakistan but dominate the most in South India. The cases that are negative to L295 are mostly in North India and Pakistan with the exception of 3 samples from South India.

Not sure what this means in terms of origins but if R2a-M124 originated anywhere in the subcontinent, it would be somewhere in the north, most probably around this area:

4153

I also think that R2a-L295 shows a similar pattern in South Asia to R1a-L657.

seferhabahir
03-28-2015, 06:11 PM
For those who weren't directly contacted by our friend UnderGrounder, I'm glad to report that the r2dna.org site has resurfaced, along with all of its 2,000+ posts about R2 DNA. There is a wealth of information contained there, accumulated over the last 5 or 6 years. That said, I would encourage people to post here as well on any new R2 and R2a information or questions that they have.

Tomasso29
10-28-2015, 11:00 PM
It has been a while since I've posted here, I've been busy and it seems like this section has been quite dormant. Anyways, I have noticed some interesting updates on the WTY-R2 project, I know Abdulaziz has been busy but it seems like he made a pretty big update not too long ago. Thus far L295 seems to be the most significant divider within M124, but I noticed that recently two other SNPs have gotten some significance and may be worth testing for, one is F1092 which seems to be the most common branch of R2a among the Jewish people but also found in Europeans, Arabs, Persians, and Armenians. While the other one is FGC12586, which is probably everyone else that's not F1092 (Including L295 since it falls under it). This is the tree I'm seeing that Abdulaziz has made:

http://r2dna.org/Tree/R2-Tree-v7.jpg

I think I'll be testing for these two SNPs soon, those who tested negative for F1092 might as well test for FGC12586 even though they're most likely to fall under it.

Tomasso29
12-15-2015, 07:09 AM
Today I saw that my kit tested negative for F1092, so I was curious and started looking at the R2-WTY project for some STR clues, now this may be nothing but there's a pattern among F1092 samples on marker YS437 carrying a value of 14 or less. All the samples that are negative for this SNP carry a value of 15 or more, this is excluding R2-M479 (xM124). Again this may be nothing but I thought it was interesting.

kinman
02-26-2016, 03:34 AM
Hello,
I just found my first ancestor who is a member of Haplogroup R2a. He is thought to have come from England (to colonial Maryland). I'm wondering just how rare R2a is in England.
------------Ken

seferhabahir
02-26-2016, 05:28 AM
Hello,
I just found my first ancestor who is a member of Haplogroup R2a. He is thought to have come from England (to colonial Maryland). I'm wondering just how rare R2a is in England.
------------Ken

R2a in England is sort of rare but not unknown. The R2 WTY Project at FTDNA has a group of Simpsons and Stephens, some of whom are from Baltimore, Maryland. They are known to be:

052- (M124+, Y12100+, PF7499+, Y8766+, V3714+, L295+, L723+, L725+, L724+)

See

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/R2-M124-WTY?iframe=ycolorized

kinman
02-26-2016, 04:35 PM
Yes,
Richard Simpson (1663?-1711) is my ancestor. Since these Simpsons are L295+, I guess that makes them even more rare in England (and Europe in general). Makes me wonder what route L295+ ancestors might have taken from their homeland in Asia to England (perhaps via Italy?).

It looks as though R2 perhaps originated in or near northern Pakistan. This fits in very well with my hypothesis that Haplogroup R originated in or near Kyrgyzstan.
-----------Ken
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


R2a in England is sort of rare but not unknown. The R2 WTY Project at FTDNA has a group of Simpsons and Stephens, some of whom are from Baltimore, Maryland. They are known to be:

052- (M124+, Y12100+, PF7499+, Y8766+, V3714+, L295+, L723+, L725+, L724+)

See

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/R2-M124-WTY?iframe=ycolorized

parasar
03-01-2016, 04:06 AM
... This fits in very well with my hypothesis that Haplogroup R originated in or near Kyrgyzstan.
-----------Ken
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

A couple of points to consider:
MA1 from the Baikal/Angara is a pre-R derivative very close in age to R, R1, and R2.
R2-M479* is present in a vast area - from South Asia to Western Europe in trace amounts.

kinman
03-02-2016, 03:57 AM
I find it interesting that the Kyrgyz language is an Altaic language (in the Turkic subfamily). Anyway, I suspect that MA1 was in the northeastern part of the early Haplogroup R population, but that we will eventually find early R derivatives in the "Stans" region (southeastern Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Tajikistan, and perhaps down into northern Pakistan). MA1 was perhaps part of an outlier population that went extinct or retreated southward when the climate deteriorated.
-------------Ken
http://www.britannica.com/topic/Kyrgyz-language
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

A couple of points to consider:
MA1 from the Baikal/Angara is a pre-R derivative very close in age to R, R1, and R2.
R2-M479* is present in a vast area - from South Asia to Western Europe in trace amounts.

Alphabetzy
08-02-2016, 05:04 PM
My brother's Y-12 results were r2a. Our paternal line is Ashkenazi from Belarus, so we were pretty shocked when we got the results back in 2009. We did Nat Geo's genographic test and transferred the results to FtDna. We joined the r2 WTY project and the Jewish R-m124 Project.
I would love to learn more about this, and I would love to do further testing on my brother beyond the 12 markers, but don't have the resources at the moment.
I saw mention of the Mountain Jews of Azerbaijan and I've come across them in my research before. I am fascinated by all of this.

Is it a stretch to invoke the mountain Jews as an explanation for how Persian Jews ended up with descendants in the Grand Duchy of Lithuania? Is it even necessary? Wikipedia says many early Jewish settlers in this region migrate into the country from the east, directly from Babylonia, Palestine, etc.

"The origin of the Jews of Lithuania has been the subject of much speculation. It is believed that they were made up of two distinct streams of Jewish immigration. The older and significantly smaller of the two entered the territory that would later become the Grand Duchy of Lithuania from the east. These early immigrants spoke Judeo-Slavic dialects which distinguished them from the later Jewish immigrants who entered the region from the Germanic lands.

While the origin of these eastern Jews is not certain, historical evidence places Jewish refugees from Babylonia, Palestine, the Byzantine Empire and other Jewish refugees and settlers in the lands between the Baltic and Black Seas that would become part of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania."

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_Lithuania

I've since tested my autosomal DNA with Ancestry, I'm uploaded to ftdna and GEDmatch. My mother (not Jewish) has also tested and uploaded to GEDmatch, so I was able to create a phased kit representing which parts of my DNA I inherited from my father. He has quite a bit of Caucasian admixture along with the expected Near East typical of most Ashkenazi, but he also has about 4% South Asian.

Sorry this post is so scatterbrained, I'm not sure how to really begin, or which questions to even ask! :)

seferhabahir
08-13-2016, 07:15 AM
My brother's Y-12 results were r2a. Our paternal line is Ashkenazi from Belarus, so we were pretty shocked when we got the results back in 2009. We did Nat Geo's genographic test and transferred the results to FtDna. We joined the r2 WTY project and the Jewish R-m124 Project.

...

While the origin of these eastern Jews is not certain, historical evidence places Jewish refugees from Babylonia, Palestine, the Byzantine Empire and other Jewish refugees and settlers in the lands between the Baltic and Black Seas that would become part of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania."

Sorry this post is so scatterbrained, I'm not sure how to really begin, or which questions to even ask! :)

i just came back from the International Association of Jewish Genealogical Societies Conference in Seattle, where I had two interesting conversations. One was with a speaker who gave a talk about Jewish migration patterns (and in particular out of the Jewish centers of Sura, Nehardea and Pubedita in Babylonia after their decline and into Europe), and one was with a certain executive of FTDNA who I don't need to name, who really likes the theory that R2 Ashkenazi Jews in Eastern Europe may be the result of Babylonian Jewish sages imported into the Khazarian kingdom to help teach recently converted royalty and upper crust societal classes, and that after the crumbling of Khazaria made their way into Eastern Europe. When I asked the speaker what he thought about this theory regarding a Khazarian importation of Jewish sages, he said he was not convinced that all the stories of about Khazarian royal converts had any credibility at all, and there was a possibility that it was a fiction, which would cast doubt on that idea. I think maybe he might have been confusing importation of Babylonian Jews into Khazaria with the not very well accepted (well, for most people here, the highly discredited) Khazarian hypothesis of converted Jews forming a large part of Ashkenazi Jews in Eastern Europe. To be fair, he was not familiar at all with the DNA data, but was probably pretty highly aware of Shlomo Sand and Eran Elhaik.

So, anyway, there are different routes out of Babylonia at the end of the Gaonic era into other places like Iberia, Narbonne, or the Rhineland. From these places (particularly the Rhineland), it is entirely likely that R2 Jews made their way into Lithuania and Poland from there, giving rise to a number of R2 Ashkenazi lineages, possibly all descended from one or two fleeing Babylonian Jews. The Jewish R-M124 project has demonstrated pretty clearly (or at least the Big Y tests of the members have) that all the Ashkenazi Jews are descended from Mizrachi Jewish lineages in Babylonia/Persia. One of the Big Y testers that is Mizrachi has a family tradition of being in Iran for 2500 or more years. That person's SNPs line up very well with all the Ashkenazi Big Y SNPs, there being really only a handful of unique SNPs in the Mizrachi Big Y unique from the Ashkenazi testers, pointing to a divergence near the time of the start of Islam. I'm sure I've talked about this somewhere here on the forum before. What I would really like to do is get hold of some more R2 Mizrachi Big Y tests (but to date, there is only the one). But there is a non-Jewish Kuwaiti with almost all the same SNPs common to the Mizrachi and Ashkenazi Big Y, probably pointing to an Islamic conversion out of Judaism at about the same time as the Ashkenazi/Mizrachi divergence.

Tomasso29
09-22-2016, 05:45 AM
Here's a significant update:

http://isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpR.html

It looks like there are new SNPs found under R2-M479 that represent a new branch (R2b) for those who are M124 negative. I wonder if the current M479+ / M124- folks belong to this new branch.

As for those under the R2a branch, it seems like there are a few significant branches emerging, based on the current WTY project we have the following:

- There are two main branches, R2a1-L263 and R2a2-P267. Only two samples belong to the former (Anatolian Greek and Armenian), there are other Greek/Armenian samples that are suspected but they need to be confirmed. The rest are all P267+.

- Within R2a2-P267 there are also two significant branches, R2a2a-FGC13188 and R2a2b-Y12100. The vast majority of Jewish samples fall under the R2a2a cluster, there are also Arabs, Persians, and Armenians in there. As for R2a2b, there are Arabs, South Asians, Armenians, Europeans, etc.

- Considering that most of the current M124 happens to be in India, it's important to mention that most of the South Asian R2a is found under the R2a2b1b2b-L295 branch. Outside of this we can find a smaller number of South Asians within clusters under R2a2b1b-Y8766, these guys probably make up the vast majority of the L295- found in South Asia today (https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-M479/).

Just a few years ago the only significant branch we had was L295. Now we have many others emerging, so it's great to see how far the branching for this haplogroup has come along.

Ralpert
08-12-2018, 06:22 PM
Hi, another way Babylonian Jews became part of the ashkenazi happened when the Jews first began moving into Germany and the bottle neck period when many Rabbis were lost, pumbedisa sent out Rabbis to Germany to help build up the Yeshivas and Torah learning.

aaronbee2010
12-28-2018, 07:33 PM
Swat Valley, Pakistan
Iron Age (Indo Aryan) Proto-historic period

Katelai_IA (horse burial https://books.google.com/books?id=juivCQAAQBAJ&pg=PA33)
I5396 J2a1 904-817 calBCE
I5399 R2a3a 1000-800 BCE

Loebanr_IA (two horse representations https://www.jstor.org/stable/2975736...n_tab_contents)
S10001 L1a 1300-1000 BCE
S10974 L1a 900-800 BCE
S8998 R1b1a1a2a1a1c2b2b1a2 1000-800 BCE
I6553 C1b1a1a1 971-834 calBCE
I6555 L1a 906-820 calBCE
I5400 Q1b2 927-831 calBCE
I6554 L1a 831-796 calBCE

Aligrama_IA (Andronovo skull type)
I8220 L1a 970-550 BCE
I8246 G2a2a 970-550 BCE
I8245 R2a3a2b2b1 Aligrama_IA 970-550 BCE


Swat Valley, Pakistan
Historic (Buddhist) Period

Saidu_Sharif_IA_o (Outlier)
S7722 R2a3a2b 500-300 BCE

Note: Sample S8998 designated R1b1a1a2a1a1c2b2b1a2 is likely R2.

Hello, can anybody help me out with the R2a subclade nomenclature here please?

I don't think something like "R2a3a" has ever been seen on any ISOGG tree. This is clearly nomenclature from somewhere else. Would anyone be able to enlighten me here?

In particular, which samples here (if any) are L295+? I'm L295- myself and curious exactly how my line got into South Asia. If I could know what lineages found here are L295- it could answer a few questions I have.

parasar
12-29-2018, 01:45 AM
Hello, can anybody help me out with the R2a subclade nomenclature here please?

I don't think something like "R2a3a" has ever been seen on any ISOGG tree. This is clearly nomenclature from somewhere else. Would anyone be able to enlighten me here?

In particular, which samples here (if any) are L295+? I'm L295- myself and curious exactly how my line got into South Asia. If I could know what lineages found here are L295- it could answer a few questions I have.

L295 status not known.
V3714+

parasar
12-29-2018, 01:50 AM
They used yhaplo https://github.com/23andMe/yhaplo
But best to just check the position (very limited without BAM) here: https://www.dropbox.com/s/l2fevb2yjbyg5wj/Ycalls.xlsx?dl=0

aaronbee2010
12-29-2018, 01:50 AM
L295 status not known.
V3714+

Oh god that's literally directly above L295. Still looks like I'm at square one!

parasar
12-29-2018, 02:09 AM
Oh god that's literally directly above L295. Still looks like I'm at square one!

One sample is SK2155+
So under L295.

aaronbee2010
12-29-2018, 02:26 AM
One sample is SK2155+
So under L295.

These Swat samples seem to mimic South Asia in the present day. Almost all R2a here comes under R-V3714, the parent clade of R-L295. So one sample is confirmed L295+ and the others could be either or I guess.

How do you find the SNPs associated with each subclade (i.e. which subclade L295 comes under according to this yhaplo tree)? I'm having some trouble finding it on the link you provided.

Apologies for sounding like a novice here.

EDIT: Never mind, I looked at the bottom of the list in your link and found "R2a3a2b2b1" equalling "R-SK2155" at the bottom of the list. That would mean R2a3a2b2b1 would be the same subclade as R2a2b1b2b2a (ISOGG 2019)

The sample before him showed "R2a3a2b" equalling "R-V3714", which would make R2a3a2b equivalent to R2a2b1b2 (ISOGG 2019).

Thank you :)

aaronbee2010
04-28-2019, 07:22 PM
L295 status not known.
V3714+

I looked at the calls on I5399 and this sample wasn't tested for anything (ancestral or derived) below R2a3a (R-Y8763). This one just appears to have low coverage.

I looked at the calls on S7722 and it was derived for R2a3a2b (R-V3714) and ancestral for R2a3a2b2 (R-L295), so it most likely comes either under R-SK2142 or R-Y26630 (most likely the former, as the latter has no modern-day NW samples on YFull).

One question I have about S7722 is: why is it designated as an outlier? Thanks!

Kulin
04-29-2019, 12:53 AM
I looked at the calls on I5399 and this sample wasn't tested for anything (ancestral or derived) below R2a3a (R-Y8763). This one just appears to have low coverage.

I looked at the calls on S7722 and it was derived for R2a3a2b (R-V3714) and ancestral for R2a3a2b2 (R-L295), so it most likely comes either under R-SK2142 or R-Y26630 (most likely the former, as the latter has no modern-day NW samples on YFull).

One question I have about S7722 is: why is it designated as an outlier? Thanks!

I think S7722 is the one that is autosomally close to South Indian middle castes, and represents a possibly less mixed survivor of the Indus Valley Civilization in Swat valley.


"sample": "Test1: PAK_Swat_Saidu_Sharif_IA_o",
"fit": 2.8282,
"Velamas": 75.83,
"Irula": 24.17,
"RUS_Sintashta_MLBA": 0,
"TJK_Sarazm_Eneolithic": 0,
"closestDistances":
"Velamas:undefined: 3.784882",
"Irula:undefined: 8.399723",
"TJK_Sarazm_Eneolithic:undefined: 26.437811",
"RUS_Sintashta_MLBA:undefined: 35.564309"

aaronbee2010
04-29-2019, 03:34 PM
I think S7722 is the one that is autosomally close to South Indian middle castes, and represents a possibly less mixed survivor of the Indus Valley Civilization in Swat valley.


"sample": "Test1: PAK_Swat_Saidu_Sharif_IA_o",
"fit": 2.8282,
"Velamas": 75.83,
"Irula": 24.17,
"RUS_Sintashta_MLBA": 0,
"TJK_Sarazm_Eneolithic": 0,
"closestDistances":
"Velamas:undefined: 3.784882",
"Irula:undefined: 8.399723",
"TJK_Sarazm_Eneolithic:undefined: 26.437811",
"RUS_Sintashta_MLBA:undefined: 35.564309"

That just create's more questions, as I no longer have any certainty if the sample comes under R-SK2142 or R-Y26630 D:

R-SK2142* (xY1377) was found in an Irula tribal (this was the study which had the other Irula coming under L-M357, which explains why I asked a while back about Irulas origins, considering both samples from the study had NW-biased Y-DNA subclades), so that's a possibility given the match of this ancient sample to Irulas.

R-Y26630 is clustered around West Bengal and Andhra Pradesh (this pattern is practically identical to R-L295), so that could be a possibility given the ancient samples match to Velamas, who are generally found in/around Andhra Pradesh.

I've been stuck for ages trying to figure out how my line entered South Asia. Most people I've asked think it's a BMAC-related lineage, however there's always the possibility of it being a relatively late migration to the IVC (it would've probably entered after L-M27 did). I'm not sure how likely this IVC theory is as I'm unsure if there was any other wave of Y-DNA into the IVC a significant amount of time after L-M27. I would say this theory is less likely given what I just said however the possibility still remains.

On another note, I've seen two samples of R-Y1379 specifically from Sindh, however they're both probably Y1383- (one's confirmed Y1383- and the other one's inferred Y1383- from STRs), so this doesn't really tell me a lot.

The majority of AG users here have Y-DNA subclade whose origins are a lot less obscure than mine, and it can be a little annoying. I've helped lots of other people with their lineages but I can't even find out anything conclusive about my own. Guess I need to wait for more YFull samples (however many years that may take) -_-


https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/c/c7/Michael_Jordan_crying.jpg/220px-Michael_Jordan_crying.jpg

Paul333
04-29-2019, 04:07 PM
That just create's more questions, as I no longer have any certainty if the sample comes under R-SK2142 or R-Y26630 D:

R-SK2142* (xY1377) was found in an Irula tribal (this was the study which had the other Irula coming under L-M357, which explains why I asked a while back about Irulas origins, considering both samples from the study had NW-biased Y-DNA subclades), so that's a possibility given the match of this ancient sample to Irulas.

R-Y26630 is clustered around West Bengal and Andhra Pradesh (this pattern is practically identical to R-L295), so that could be a possibility given the ancient samples match to Velamas, who are generally found in/around Andhra Pradesh.

I've been stuck for ages trying to figure out how my line entered South Asia. Most people I've asked think it's a BMAC-related lineage, however there's always the possibility of it being a relatively late migration to the IVC (it would've probably entered after L-M27 did). I'm not sure how likely this IVC theory is as I'm unsure if there was any other wave of Y-DNA into the IVC a significant amount of time after L-M27. I would say this theory is less likely given what I just said however the possibility still remains.

On another note, I've seen two samples of R-Y1379 specifically from Sindh, however they're both probably Y1383- (one's confirmed Y1383- and the other one's inferred Y1383- from STRs), so this doesn't really tell me a lot.

The majority of AG users here have Y-DNA subclade whose origins are a lot less obscure than mine, and it can be a little annoying. I've helped lots of other people with their lineages but I can't even find out anything conclusive about my own. Guess I need to wait for more YFull samples (however many years that may take) -_-


https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/c/c7/Michael_Jordan_crying.jpg/220px-Michael_Jordan_crying.jpg

Not sure if this could help but type R L722, into the SNP tracker, and it shows M479 in Uzbekistan Mesolithic, but use the menu and click descendants, and it then shows descendant entries into South Asia. Hope it helps

Amber29
04-29-2019, 04:14 PM
Not sure if this could help but type R L722, into the SNP tracker, and it shows M479 in Uzbekistan Mesolithic, but use the menu and click descendants, and it then shows descendant entries into South Asia. Hope it helps

Ive used this mine shows southwest Afghanistan.30176

WHERE as I get this on the other website


30177

Doesnt help :(

aaronbee2010
04-29-2019, 04:43 PM
Not sure if this could help but type R L722, into the SNP tracker and it shows M479 in Uzbekistan Mesolithic, but use the menu and click descendants and it shows entries for South Asia. Hope it helps

Thank you very much for your help on this matter, but I don't have any issues with the origin of R2-M479, or how most of it entered South Asia at the moment.

The problem I'm having is how my specific subclade, R2a2b1b2a1a1-Y1383 entered South Asia. All the samples I can find consist of an Indian Gujarati and a Pakistani Punjabi, however I have no other information about them (i.e. their caste/background - these are genetically distinct and have different origins). There's another sample who hasn't even disclosed his place of origin.

Again, thank you for trying to help me, but I've come to terms with the fact that I'll probably be in limbo for what seems like an eternity at this point.

https://media.tenor.com/images/0df0592d2dde32df091d084ca0bea884/tenor.png

On another note, I prefer using PhyloGeographer's Mygrations SNP tracker, as YFull's database is noticeably better for R2, although different subclades may have different mileage with each tool. It's worth seeing what you get for various H2 subclades with it :)


Ive used this mine shows southwest Afghanistan.30176

WHERE as I get this on the other website


30177

Doesnt help :(

Those tools use different databases as their reference (one uses FTDNA and the other uses YFull), hence the differing results. There's not too much of a difference between them though. My personal guess for R2-M479's location of origin (from the rather extensive research I've done - don't mean to toot my own horn lol) is somewhere around North Afghanistan, so both guesses aren't too far off.

Amber29
04-29-2019, 04:51 PM
Thank you very much for your help on this matter, but I don't have any issues with the origin of R2-M479, or how most of it entered South Asia at the moment.

The problem I'm having is how my specific subclade, R2a2b1b2a1a1-Y1383 entered South Asia. All the samples I can find consist of an Indian Gujarati and a Pakistani Punjabi, however I have no other information about them (i.e. their caste/background - these are genetically distinct and have different origins). There's another sample who hasn't even disclosed his place of origin.

Again, thank you for trying to help me, but I've come to terms with the fact that I'll probably be in limbo for what seems like an eternity at this point.

https://media.tenor.com/images/0df0592d2dde32df091d084ca0bea884/tenor.png

On another note, I prefer using PhyloGeographer's Mygrations SNP tracker, as YFull's database is noticeably better for R2, although different subclades may have different mileage with each tool. It's worth seeing what you get for various H2 subclades with it :)



Those tools use different databases as their reference (one uses FTDNA and the other uses YFull), hence the differing results. There's not too much of a difference between them though. My personal guess for R2-M479's location of origin (from the rather extensive research I've done - don't mean to toot my own horn lol) is somewhere around North Afghanistan, so both guesses aren't too far off.

Yes I saw this on the forums on 23andMe lol.I would trust Yfull though because of how popular and specific it is on there lol. But other than that it isnt far off kind of thing Yes that what I also said. I still dont get mine being R2a2a So I feel you about the origins part! (even though using the haplogroup thing still confusing

aaronbee2010
04-29-2019, 04:53 PM
Yes I saw this on the forums on 23andMe lol.I would trust Yfull though because of how popular and specific it is on there lol. But other than that it isnt far off kind of thing Yes that what I also said. I still dont get mine being R2a2a So I feel you about the origins part! (even though using the haplogroup thing still confusing

#FeelsSquad

Tomasso29
04-29-2019, 06:47 PM
The problem I'm having is how my specific subclade, R2a2b1b2a1a1-Y1383 entered South Asia. All the samples I can find consist of an Indian Gujarati and a Pakistani Punjabi, however I have no other information about them (i.e. their caste/background - these are genetically distinct and have different origins). There's another sample who hasn't even disclosed his place of origin.

Again, thank you for trying to help me, but I've come to terms with the fact that I'll probably be in limbo for what seems like an eternity at this point.


This is just an educational guess, but I remember when we were comparing the L295+/- in South Asia, we noticed that South India was very heavy and rich in L295+ (Over 90%), while Northern India and Pakistan were more of a mix between the positive and negative, but the L295+ folks were still a bit more, I think it was a 65% to 35% ratio the last time I checked. Anyhow, I have two theories on this:

a) Y11798 (L295+) was an earlier migration wave to South Asia, possibly during the expansion of Iranian Neolithic. While the SK2142 umbrella belongs to a later migration, and seeing the geographic spread of it in South Asia it may be related to the spread of Indo-Aryan languages among other lineages.

b) This is probably the theory I favor. Haplogroup R2a enters South Asia under the V3714 umbrella from Iran, and all the lineages under V3714 form there with L295+ being among oldest and luckiest mutations to spread across India. While its sibling SK2142 was formed a little later and remained mostly in the north.

Keep in mind that most of this thinking is based on modern distribution, which could be completely off in the light of ancient DNA studies.

Amber29
04-29-2019, 06:53 PM
This is just an educational guess, but I remember when we were comparing the L295+/- in South Asia, we noticed that South India was very heavy and rich in L295+ (Over 90%), while Northern India and Pakistan were more of a mix between the positive and negative, but the L295+ folks were still a bit more, I think it was a 65% to 35% ratio the last time I checked. Anyhow, I have two theories on this:

a) Y11798 (L295+) was an earlier migration wave to South Asia, possibly during the expansion of Iranian Neolithic. While the SK2142 umbrella belongs to a later migration, and seeing the geographic spread of it in South Asia it may be related to the spread of Indo-Aryan languages among other lineages.

b) This is probably the theory I favor. Haplogroup R2a enters South Asia under the V3714 umbrella from Iran, and all the lineages under V3714 form there with L295+ being among oldest and luckiest mutations to spread across India. While its sibling SK2142 was formed a little later and remained mostly in the north.

Keep in mind that most of this thinking is based on modern distribution, which could be completely off in the light of ancient DNA studies.

sorry to butt in, what would you know about R2a2a into South Asia? Im as curious as AaronB... lol

Tomasso29
04-29-2019, 07:07 PM
sorry to butt in, what would you know about R2a2a into South Asia? Im as curious as AaronB... lol

I'm assuming you're talkin R2a2a-FGC13203? It's hard to say given that it's found in so many different parts. In my opinion this lineage likely formed in West Asia and spread from there. In Europe it was carried out by the Jewish population for most part, while in Asia it was probably a product of the spread of the Persian empire.

Amber29
04-29-2019, 07:19 PM
I'm assuming you're talkin R2a2a-FGC13203? It's hard to say given that it's found in so many different parts. In my opinion this lineage likely formed in West Asia and spread from there. In Europe it was carried out by the Jewish population for most part, while in Asia it was probably a product of the spread of the Persian empire.

There is so many different things to consider i agree its hard to say lol - I appreciate your input - we so need more people to test.

aaronbee2010
05-03-2019, 04:20 PM
Apologies for the late reply Tomasso29, university has been a pain this week with coursework deadlines!


This is just an educational guess, but I remember when we were comparing the L295+/- in South Asia, we noticed that South India was very heavy and rich in L295+ (Over 90%), while Northern India and Pakistan were more of a mix between the positive and negative, but the L295+ folks were still a bit more, I think it was a 65% to 35% ratio the last time I checked. Anyhow, I have two theories on this:

a) Y11798 (L295+) was an earlier migration wave to South Asia, possibly during the expansion of Iranian Neolithic. While the SK2142 umbrella belongs to a later migration, and seeing the geographic spread of it in South Asia it may be related to the spread of Indo-Aryan languages among other lineages.

b) This is probably the theory I favor. Haplogroup R2a enters South Asia under the V3714 umbrella from Iran, and all the lineages under V3714 form there with L295+ being among oldest and luckiest mutations to spread across India. While its sibling SK2142 was formed a little later and remained mostly in the north.

Keep in mind that most of this thinking is based on modern distribution, which could be completely off in the light of ancient DNA studies.

Personally, I don't think either R-L295 or R-SK2142 originated in South Asia, allow me to explain why I think this way:

As you touched on, modern population distributions could be very far removed from ancient populations - R1b1a1b-M269 is a very good example of this. The general consensus is that this lineage moved into Western Europe from the east/southeast. I would personally guess that this same logic also applies to R-L295, moving into South Asia from a region in or around the Zagros, and clustering around regions with a shoreline (i.e. Bengal, Andhra Pradesh) due to passage being blocked by the Bay of Bengal, in the same way R-M269 built up the most around areas bordering the Atlantic Sea. India does have the second highest population of any country in the world, so this needs to be taken into account when looking at distribution patterns in South Asia versus West Asia. What would really help more an anything else is more Iranian R2a samples - Iran as a whole is underrepresented on YFull - in particular I would like more West Iranian samples. I would also like more Afghani samples to see if my subclade entered through the BMAC region.

All South Asian R2a (FGC13203-) appears to come specifically under R2a2b1b-Y8766 (namely, R-Y5080, R-SK2142, R-L295 and R-Y26630), so entry of R2a into South Asia may have occured shortly after the formation of the R-Y8766 subclade.

I think it's more plausible that R2a subclades under R-V3714 would've only travelled just from West to East, as opposed to your second theory, which would require West Asian R-V3714 subclades to have originated in West Asia, then travel to South Asia where R-L295 and R-SK2142 originated then some branches of those two subclades would have to travel back to West Asia. I'm not saying your second theory is impossible (we do see small numbers of H (xP96) in West Asia, so this does happen), however I think it would be appropriate to apply Occam's Razor here - the theory with one main migration just from West to East seems more simple than two main migrations, one from West to East then another one of lower significance back to the West. Considering that small amounts of R2a2b1b2b2-Y1280 exist in Italy, it would be even less plausible for V3714 to travel from West Asia to South Asia, back to West Asia and then to Italy, compared to R-Y1283 originating in West Asia, with most branches travelling to South Asia and a few others travelling to Italy at some point in time straight from West Asia - one journey seems more likely than three.

I'll attempt to correlate various waves of R-Y8766 into South Asia by correlating it with other subclades linked to ancient Iranian migrations below:

Looking on YFull, most West Asian R-Y5080 is located around areas near to the Zagros mountains (i.e. Diyala [Iraq], Basrah [Iraq], Kuwait [R2a would've most likely travelled through Basrah to get here] etc.), so I would guess the origin of R-Y5080 would've been the Zagros region and the West/South Asian split occurred around there as well, sometime around 4450 BC. It only has two South Asian samples, and they're both very far apart (one from Punjab (Pakistan) and one from Bangladesh) so I have no idea what wave of R-Y8766 entry into South Asia this subclade is associated with. More samples would always be appreciated.

R-SK2142 appears to be associated either with a later wave of entry into the IVC (most likely alongside L1a1-M27) or with the travel into the BMAC region that formed the Oxus civilisation(most likely alongside L1a2-M357) - it's interesting to note that J2a-M410 was prevalent in both the BMAC and IVC, and is the main branch of J2 found in Sindh - a place where I found one confirmed Y1379 (xY1383) and one inferred Y1379 (xY1383). The Z29271/FGC49351 split may correspond chronologically to the BMAC/IVC split, as we know these communities came from the same West Iranian source, so it may be safe to associate my subclade with one of these two cultures - and that would also explain why I think SK2142 originated in West Iran. In both scenario's, it seems to be the case that R-SK2142 either had a poor start in terms of spreading out from its origin, or had a good start but suffered a significant bottleneck at some point in time afterwards. This reminds me of the high numbers of E1b1b1b2-CTS5487 found in ancient Indo-Aryans despite it no longer being seen in South Asia - so bottlenecks have definitely happened.

It's noteworthy that one South Asian SK2142 sample on YFull appears to be an outlier - the Y1378- sample, this yet-to-be-discovered-subclade may be associated with the IVC - it's an Irula sample, a tribal group mainly found in Kerala, which has lots of L-M27. Most South Asian SK2142's come under R-Y1379, which appears to have a very prominent split with two subclades, R-Z29271 (All YFull samples are NW South Asian) and R-FGC49351 (All YFull samples are clustered around the East Arabia - two Indian samples exist on the FTDNA Haplotree though). R-SK2142 branched out around 4950 BC according to YFull , however if we disregard the Irula sample, then we don't see any South Asian samples entering South Asia until the formation of R-Y1379, which branched around 3450 BC according to YFull. Apart from the Irula, all other R-SK2142 (xY1379) samples are West Asian (two R-FGC52936 Kuwaitis and one R-Y1377 (xY1379) Arab). The date for Y1379 corresponds well with both the IVC and Oxus civilisations, so I don't know exactly which one my lineage is associated with (if Narasimhan et al. tested for SK2142 then that would've been really handy) however at least I can safely guess it's one of the two - still better than nothing.

R-L295 is easily the most successful R-Y8766 subclade in both West South Asia, and seems to be one of the first lineages to introduce Elamo-Dravidian languages to the Indian subcontinent (even entering South Asia a while before the IVC, but probably from the same source), but also probably entering in later waves during the beginning and peak of the IVC. R-L295 in South Asia can be split into R-SK2155, R-Y1288 and R-Y1334 - the first two subclades are both descended from R-Y1283. Both YFull samples of R-Y1283 that aren't under either R-SK2155 or R-Y1288 are not South Asian, which suggests to me that R-Y1283 wouldn't have entered South Asia until it's two subclades did - which would logically mean that R-L295 probably didn't originate in South Asia either. The two R-Y1283 (xSK2155, Y1288) samples I just mentioned appear to correspond to two R2-M124-WTY members who come under R-Y1283 but not R-SK2155 (they don't have a section for R-Y1288 on there, unfortunately) - one of them is from Basrah (Southeast Iraq - near Kuwait) and one from Avellino (South Italy) - given all of this, I'm guessing the entry of R-Y1283 into India was mediated through one of it's two subclades.

R-SK2155 itself is split into R-Y28600 (two Indian samples on YFull) and R-Y1331, which itself (on YFull) has two subclades (R-Y26635 (three South Asian samples on YFull) and R-Y20020 (one Arab sample and one Indian sample)) and a paragroup that has one Kuwaiti sample and one Pakistani sample. This subclade diverged within South Asia around 4450 BC, which is 700 years apart from the TMRCA value of R-Y1283, so they were quite distinct in that regard.

R-Y1288 can be split into R-M3349 (which itself has two subclades (one with two Indian samples and one with two Sardinian samples)) and R-Y1290 (7 South Asian samples). Unfortunately, there are no TMRCA values on YFull for R-Y1288, so it's hard to attribute this to a specific wave of migration.

R-Y1334 has a divergence time (TMRCA) around 5550 BC, and various subclades, some of which have different distributions and trajectories. These would be R-Y1357 (YFull has two Gujarati samples, one Punjabi (Pakistani) and AG has a Keralite user who comes under this subclade - unfortunately I can't find a TMRCA value here), R-L723 (only one English sample on YFull, however FTDNA has three English samples, two Indian samples and an Arab sample - I can't find a TMRCA value for R-L723 either, unfortunately) and R-Y1340, which has a majority of its samples in South Asia, and is 600 years removed from R-Y1334 in terms of TMRCA.

R-Y26630 only has 5 samples on YFull, 4 South Asian samples (two in Bengal and two in Andhra Pradesh - very similar to R-L295 in terms of geographic distribution) and one sample of unknown origin. No samples of this subclade currently exist on FTDNA.

Sorry if this is a lot to take in by the way! Please take as much time as you need.


sorry to butt in, what would you know about R2a2a into South Asia? Im as curious as AaronB... lol

I looked at the BMAC samples from Narasimhan et al. 2018 and 2/3 R2a samples found were xR2a3. They're obviously not using ISOGG nomenclature (R2a3 used to refer to R-L1069, however R2a3a on the Narasimhan tree refers to R-Y8763, which is actually above L1069, so they must not be referring to an older ISOGG tree) so we don't know what SNP they mean when they refer to R2a3, however there was a R2a3a Indo-Aryan sample that was designated as R-Y8763. This means that R2a3 either refers to P267 or Y12100. If R2a3 refers to P267 then that would mean that all the BMAC R2a found was P267-, which I think would be questionable. If R2a3 refers to Y12100 then that still means that those R2a samples were P267+ and Y12100-, which makes far more sense. YFull has two South Asian Brahmins who come under R-FGC13203 (one under R-FGC12303* [this one is specifically from Uttar Pradesh] and one under R-F2791), and your father also comes under R-FGC13203*, as you know. When you get your father on YFull, I would like to see if a new subclade on there is formed with him and the Uttar Pradesh Brahmin and if so, what their TMRCA is.

In short, I think R2a2a (at least some of it) may be linked to the Oxus civilisation, which was an important ancestor of the Indo-Aryans. That would explain why all known South Asian R-FGC13203 currently belongs to either a Brahmin or Kshatriya upper caste, which makes sense with Y-DNA that was carried into South Asia by Indo-Aryans.

I don't know anything about the BMAC R-Y8763 sample so it doesn't help me, but I hope this at least helps you lol

DMXX
05-03-2019, 04:51 PM
Historically, R2a-M124 has had a rather "bony" phylogeny for several reasons:
1) A relatively rare subclade in the two major genealogical testing poles (far West and East Eurasia, i.e. Western Europe and Japan, China and South Korea)
2) A lack of interest from researchers due to its' apparent absence in the ethnogenesis of modern Europeans and East Asians (per above)
3) A fixation with resolving the most distal branches, rather than the tree limbs, of the phylogeny (hence the over-representation of Gulf Arabs and Ashkenazi Jews in the R2 project)

Tomasso was one of the other early R2a advocates alongside myself (back in DNA-Forums circa 2009-10), so I imagine he'll be in agreement with the above.

Back when I had the time to contribute to the R2 project, I fundamentally disagreed with the consensus decision to build up the branches while seemingly ignoring the broader phylogeny of our subclade (you'll probably find my public posts there on that between the 2011-13 period, if the WTY forum is still around). Looking at the YFull tree (https://www.yfull.com/tree/R2/), things haven't improved at all (around 50% of the entries there look Gulf Arab - That's an obvious skew in their favour). The trend from the old days has held in the R2 project's FTDNA page (http://www.r2dna.org/) (though the Gulf Arab sample bias is arguably less severe there).

I had publicly stated multiple times in the past in the old R2 forum (can't locate it online, Tomasso may corroborate) that we should at least be focusing on samples from the regions where the subclade either arose (Central Asia) or enjoyed some form of demographic boon (West Asia and South Asia) as much as investing the above favoured groups. The course they're taking hasn't shifted in nearly a decade, so I wouldn't hold your breath in anticipation, aaron.

To be frank, a population genetics-based focus on R2a is long overdue. I have one shelved blog entry that attempted to address the issue back in 2014 ("blinded" Y-STR cluster analysis of all the R2a project samples plus multiple study samples), but that's now outdated, and there's plenty of Y-SNP data that can be analysed. I don't think the R2 FTDNA Project has even looked into the Narasimhan et al. samples (though their forum's seemingly gone and they're redirecting to the FTDNA page for some reason, per above). If you're interested, send me a PM, and we can look into doing something in the future.

I happen to be the target demo you outlined (NW Iranian R2a) for YFull, but I don't have the expenditure for that right now.

[Edit]: Clarification that I'm not "throwing shade" (as the Gen Z'ers would say) at the WTY R2 team (their organisation and commitment to the subclade can't be doubted). I am, however, maintaining my near decade-long criticism of the focus and the emergent outcomes. We'd have a much better overall view of the modern R2a tree otherwise.

Amber29
05-03-2019, 05:00 PM
Apologies for the late reply Tomasso29, university has been a pain this week with coursework deadlines!



Personally, I don't think either R-L295 or R-SK2142 originated in South Asia, allow me to explain why I think this way:

As you touched on, modern population distributions could be very far removed from ancient populations - R1b1a1b-M269 is a very good example of this. The general consensus is that this lineage moved into Western Europe from the east/southeast. I would personally guess that this same logic also applies to R-L295, moving into South Asia from a region in or around the Zagros, and clustering around regions with a shoreline (i.e. Bengal, Andhra Pradesh) due to passage being blocked by the Bay of Bengal, in the same way R-M269 built up the most around areas bordering the Atlantic Sea. India does have the second highest population of any country in the world, so this needs to be taken into account when looking at distribution patterns in South Asia versus West Asia. What would really help more an anything else is more Iranian R2a samples - Iran as a whole is underrepresented on YFull - in particular I would like more West Iranian samples. I would also like more Afghani samples to see if my subclade entered through the BMAC region.

All South Asian R2a (FGC13203-) appears to come specifically under R2a2b1b-Y8766 (namely, R-Y5080, R-SK2142, R-L295 and R-Y26630), so entry of R2a into South Asia may have occured shortly after the formation of the R-Y8766 subclade.

I think it's more plausible that R2a subclades under R-V3714 would've only travelled just from West to East, as opposed to your second theory, which would require West Asian R-V3714 subclades to have originated in West Asia, then travel to South Asia where R-L295 and R-SK2142 originated then some branches of those two subclades would have to travel back to West Asia. I'm not saying your second theory is impossible (we do see small numbers of H (xP96) in West Asia, so this does happen), however I think it would be appropriate to apply Occam's Razor here - the theory with one main migration just from West to East seems more simple than two main migrations, one from West to East then another one of lower significance back to the West. Considering that small amounts of R2a2b1b2b2-Y1280 exist in Italy, it would be even less plausible for V3714 to travel from West Asia to South Asia, back to West Asia and then to Italy, compared to R-Y1283 originating in West Asia, with most branches travelling to South Asia and a few others travelling to Italy at some point in time straight from West Asia - one journey seems more likely than three.

I'll attempt to correlate various waves of R-Y8766 into South Asia by correlating it with other subclades linked to ancient Iranian migrations below:

Looking on YFull, most West Asian R-Y5080 is located around areas near to the Zagros mountains (i.e. Diyala [Iraq], Basrah [Iraq], Kuwait [R2a would've most likely travelled through Basrah to get here] etc.), so I would guess the origin of R-Y5080 would've been the Zagros region and the West/South Asian split occurred around there as well, sometime around 4450 BC. It only has two South Asian samples, and they're both very far apart (one from Punjab (Pakistan) and one from Bangladesh) so I have no idea what wave of R-Y8766 entry into South Asia this subclade is associated with. More samples would always be appreciated.

R-SK2142 appears to be associated either with a later wave of entry into the IVC (most likely alongside L1a1-M27) or with the travel into the BMAC region that formed the Oxus civilisation(most likely alongside L1a2-M357) - it's interesting to note that J2a-M410 was prevalent in both the BMAC and IVC, and is the main branch of J2 found in Sindh - a place where I found one confirmed Y1379 (xY1383) and one inferred Y1379 (xY1383). The Z29271/FGC49351 split may correspond chronologically to the BMAC/IVC split, as we know these communities came from the same West Iranian source, so it may be safe to associate my subclade with one of these two cultures - and that would also explain why I think SK2142 originated in West Iran. In both scenario's, it seems to be the case that R-SK2142 either had a poor start in terms of spreading out from its origin, or had a good start but suffered a significant bottleneck at some point in time afterwards. This reminds me of the high numbers of E1b1b1b2-CTS5487 found in ancient Indo-Aryans despite it no longer being seen in South Asia - so bottlenecks have definitely happened.

It's noteworthy that one South Asian SK2142 sample on YFull appears to be an outlier - the Y1378- sample, this yet-to-be-discovered-subclade may be associated with the IVC - it's an Irula sample, a tribal group mainly found in Kerala, which has lots of L-M27. Most South Asian SK2142's come under R-Y1379, which appears to have a very prominent split with two subclades, R-Z29271 (All YFull samples are NW South Asian) and R-FGC49351 (All YFull samples are clustered around the East Arabia - two Indian samples exist on the FTDNA Haplotree though). R-SK2142 branched out around 4950 BC according to YFull , however if we disregard the Irula sample, then we don't see any South Asian samples entering South Asia until the formation of R-Y1379, which branched around 3450 BC according to YFull. Apart from the Irula, all other R-SK2142 (xY1379) samples are West Asian (two R-FGC52936 Kuwaitis and one R-Y1377 (xY1379) Arab). The date for Y1379 corresponds well with both the IVC and Oxus civilisations, so I don't know exactly which one my lineage is associated with (if Narasimhan et al. tested for SK2142 then that would've been really handy) however at least I can safely guess it's one of the two - still better than nothing.

R-L295 is easily the most successful R-Y8766 subclade in both West South Asia, and seems to be one of the first lineages to introduce Elamo-Dravidian languages to the Indian subcontinent (even entering South Asia a while before the IVC, but probably from the same source), but also probably entering in later waves during the beginning and peak of the IVC. R-L295 in South Asia can be split into R-SK2155, R-Y1288 and R-Y1334 - the first two subclades are both descended from R-Y1283. Both YFull samples of R-Y1283 that aren't under either R-SK2155 or R-Y1288 are not South Asian, which suggests to me that R-Y1283 wouldn't have entered South Asia until it's two subclades did - which would logically mean that R-L295 probably didn't originate in South Asia either. The two R-Y1283 (xSK2155, Y1288) samples I just mentioned appear to correspond to two R2-M124-WTY members who come under R-Y1283 but not R-SK2155 (they don't have a section for R-Y1288 on there, unfortunately) - one of them is from Basrah (Southeast Iraq - near Kuwait) and one from Avellino (South Italy) - given all of this, I'm guessing the entry of R-Y1283 into India was mediated through one of it's two subclades.

R-SK2155 itself is split into R-Y28600 (two Indian samples on YFull) and R-Y1331, which itself (on YFull) has two subclades (R-Y26635 (three South Asian samples on YFull) and R-Y20020 (one Arab sample and one Indian sample)) and a paragroup that has one Kuwaiti sample and one Pakistani sample. This subclade diverged within South Asia around 4450 BC, which is 700 years apart from the TMRCA value of R-Y1283, so they were quite distinct in that regard.

R-Y1288 can be split into R-M3349 (which itself has two subclades (one with two Indian samples and one with two Sardinian samples)) and R-Y1290 (7 South Asian samples). Unfortunately, there are no TMRCA values on YFull for R-Y1288, so it's hard to attribute this to a specific wave of migration.

R-Y1334 has a divergence time (TMRCA) around 5550 BC, and various subclades, some of which have different distributions and trajectories. These would be R-Y1357 (YFull has two Gujarati samples, one Punjabi (Pakistani) and AG has a Keralite user who comes under this subclade - unfortunately I can't find a TMRCA value here), R-L723 (only one English sample on YFull, however FTDNA has three English samples, two Indian samples and an Arab sample - I can't find a TMRCA value for R-L723 either, unfortunately) and R-Y1340, which has a majority of its samples in South Asia, and is 600 years removed from R-Y1334 in terms of TMRCA.

R-Y26630 only has 5 samples on YFull, 4 South Asian samples (two in Bengal and two in Andhra Pradesh - very similar to R-L295 in terms of geographic distribution) and one sample of unknown origin. No samples of this subclade currently exist on FTDNA.

Sorry if this is a lot to take in by the way! Please take as much time as you need.



I looked at the BMAC samples from Narasimhan et al. 2018 and 2/3 R2a samples found were xR2a3. They're obviously not using ISOGG nomenclature (R2a3 used to refer to R-L1069, however R2a3a on the Narasimhan tree refers to R-Y8763, which is actually above L1069, so they must not be referring to an older ISOGG tree) so we don't know what SNP they mean when they refer to R2a3, however there was a R2a3a Indo-Aryan sample that was designated as R-Y8763. This means that R2a3 either refers to P267 or Y12100. If R2a3 refers to P267 then that would mean that all the BMAC R2a found was P267-, which I think would be questionable. If R2a3 refers to Y12100 then that still means that those R2a samples were P267+ and Y12100-, which makes far more sense. YFull has two South Asian Brahmins who come under R-FGC13203 (one under R-FGC12303* [this one is specifically from Uttar Pradesh] and one under R-F2791), and your father also comes under R-FGC13203*, as you know. When you get your father on YFull, I would like to see if a new subclade on there is formed with him and the Uttar Pradesh Brahmin and if so, what their TMRCA is.

In short, I think R2a2a (at least some of it) may be linked to the Oxus civilisation, which was an important ancestor of the Indo-Aryans. That would explain why all known South Asian R-FGC13203 currently belongs to either a Brahmin or Kshatriya upper caste, which makes sense with Y-DNA that was carried into South Asia by Indo-Aryans.

I don't know anything about the BMAC R-Y8763 sample so it doesn't help me, but I hope this at least helps you lol

Interesting theory, so the other sample apart from the one that has the same group as my dad - i know the branch dad belongs too is a very old branch - that all I know. R2a2a was picked up from ISOGG 2019 lol (unless its not updated)..... but yes i seen the sample article to the first i cant see the second, so gotta wait till end of june or beggining of july to upload to Yfull! (mine has completely changed for my mtdna (i dont even know what is my subclade anymore LOL) So will see if there is new one for Ydna. Meanwhile ill read upon oxus civilisation lol

other than this WE DO NEED MORE SAMPLES! - still clueless to where it could possibly came from xD

aaronbee2010
05-03-2019, 05:18 PM
Interesting theory, so the other sample apart from the one that has the same group as my dad - i know the branch dad belongs too is a very old branch - that all I know. R2a2a was picked up from ISOGG 2019 lol (unless its not updated)..... but yes i seen the sample article to the first i cant see the second, so gotta wait till end of june or beggining of july to upload to Yfull! (mine has completely changed for my mtdna (i dont even know what is my subclade anymore LOL) So will see if there is new one for Ydna. Meanwhile ill read upon oxus civilisation lol

other than this WE DO NEED MORE SAMPLES! - still clueless to where it could possibly came from xD

Actually, 2/3 samples from the BMAC possibly came under R-FGC13203 - while it may be an old branch, it may not have started travelling towards Asia until not long before the duration of the Oxus civilisaion - this civilisation is only dated to 2400–1600 BC, which is fairly recent.

YFull have been really erratic with my mtDNA subclade - the TMRCA value has (and still does) continue to fluctuate anywhere from 1000-8000 years - if there were more samples then this might not be happening - the only other sample in my subclade is an Iranian Azeri from the Sahakyan et al. 2017 study.

Amber29
05-03-2019, 05:24 PM
Actually, 2/3 samples from the BMAC possibly came under R-FGC13203 - while it may be an old branch, it may not have started travelling towards Asia until not long before the duration of the Oxus civilisaion - this civilisation is only dated to 2400–1600 BC, which is fairly recent.

YFull have been really erratic with my mtDNA subclade - the TMRCA value has (and still does) continue to fluctuate anywhere from 1000-8000 years - if there were more samples then this might not be happening - the only other sample in my subclade is an Iranian Azeri from the Sahakyan et al. 2017 study.

The funny part is my dad keeps mentioning or pointing to the direct your saying or the northern areas.its like he secretly knows something *sigh*haha....ill keep you updated! i think the y37 will be done first. then dads mtdna then the bigY (maybe earlier who knows) lol

aaronbee2010
05-03-2019, 06:55 PM
The funny part is my dad keeps mentioning or pointing to the direct your saying or the northern areas.its like he secretly knows something *sigh*haha....ill keep you updated! i think the y37 will be done first. then dads mtdna then the bigY (maybe earlier who knows) lol

Speaking of this, I analysed the STRs of a Punjabi Khatri who reliably appears to be FGC13203+ and possibly F1092-. So thats another Kshatriya under FGC13203 - Hopefully this helps you a bit more :D

You might want to say all of this to your dad - his intuition seems good lol

aaronbee2010
05-03-2019, 06:59 PM
Historically, R2a-M124 has had a rather "bony" phylogeny for several reasons:
1) A relatively rare subclade in the two major genealogical testing poles (far West and East Eurasia, i.e. Western Europe and Japan, China and South Korea)
2) A lack of interest from researchers due to its' apparent absence in the ethnogenesis of modern Europeans and East Asians (per above)
3) A fixation with resolving the most distal branches, rather than the tree limbs, of the phylogeny (hence the over-representation of Gulf Arabs and Ashkenazi Jews in the R2 project)

Tomasso was one of the other early R2a advocates alongside myself (back in DNA-Forums circa 2009-10), so I imagine he'll be in agreement with the above.

Back when I had the time to contribute to the R2 project, I fundamentally disagreed with the consensus decision to build up the branches while seemingly ignoring the broader phylogeny of our subclade (you'll probably find my public posts there on that between the 2011-13 period, if the WTY forum is still around). Looking at the YFull tree (https://www.yfull.com/tree/R2/), things haven't improved at all (around 50% of the entries there look Gulf Arab - That's an obvious skew in their favour). The trend from the old days has held in the R2 project's FTDNA page (http://www.r2dna.org/) (though the Gulf Arab sample bias is arguably less severe there).

I had publicly stated multiple times in the past in the old R2 forum (can't locate it online, Tomasso may corroborate) that we should at least be focusing on samples from the regions where the subclade either arose (Central Asia) or enjoyed some form of demographic boon (West Asia and South Asia) as much as investing the above favoured groups. The course they're taking hasn't shifted in nearly a decade, so I wouldn't hold your breath in anticipation, aaron.

To be frank, a population genetics-based focus on R2a is long overdue. I have one shelved blog entry that attempted to address the issue back in 2014 ("blinded" Y-STR cluster analysis of all the R2a project samples plus multiple study samples), but that's now outdated, and there's plenty of Y-SNP data that can be analysed. I don't think the R2 FTDNA Project has even looked into the Narasimhan et al. samples (though their forum's seemingly gone and they're redirecting to the FTDNA page for some reason, per above). If you're interested, send me a PM, and we can look into doing something in the future.

I happen to be the target demo you outlined (NW Iranian R2a) for YFull, but I don't have the expenditure for that right now.

It's quite sad that there's not a lot of interest for R2a-M124, considering it was the main branch of R2 that was seemingly carried into Iran from the Epi-Paleolithic aq Kupruk culture (which dates very closely to the R2-M479 MRCA - R2b has a strong South/Central Asian distribution, which supports an origin for R2 around this region). Neolithic Iran was absolutely dominated by R2a, and Iran_N was quite significant as far as the IVC and BMAC go - both of these civilisations played a significant role in the ethnogenesis of modern South Asians. Unfortunately, R2a seems to be overlooked by research focusing on South Asian history, or any further research for that matter (as far as I know, there's no peer-reviewed study dedicated to R2.

From what I've seen, there used to be a decent amount on discussion on R2a, however that appeared to fizzle out by the time I got into Y-DNA. Hopefully this may change one day - genetics as a whole appears to be getting more popular so this could indirectly result in another golden age for R2.

I agree with you that the R2-M124-WTY projects priorities appears to be in the wrong place - as you've said, Gulf Arabs are very heavily overrepresented on both YFull and FTDNA, whereas Iran, Afghanistan and many parts of India and Pakistan appear to still be underrepresented on both FTDNA and YFull. The main objective shouldn't be to find more branches, but to find branches in a larger variety of geographic locations. As far as my subclade goes, I've already given up for the near future - until something changes I'll remain stuck in limbo, as I need more Y-DNA samples near me before I can move forward - I've done almost everything I can at this point in time.

If you're interested in information regarding the origins of R-M124 itself, then this part of a PM I sent to Awan01 may be of some interest to you:


I was analysing STR's of the MRCAs for various R2 groups from the data on YFull.

One of the main STR changes from R2 to R2a was DYS426 changing from 11 to 12 (All but one confirmed M124+ people on FTDNA have this value at 12 - the other one has it at 13. All confirmed SK2163+ people have this value at 11) and one of the main changes from R2 to R2b was DYS392 from 10 to 12 (All confirmed SK2163+ people have this value at 12. No confirmed M124+ people have this value at 12).

I mention this because there are three people who are confirmed M124- (and untested for SK2163) but have DYS426 = 12 (R2a) and DYS392 not equal to 12 (not R2b). One is a confirmed M124- Kazakh who has DYS426 = 12 and DYS392 = 10 , one is a confirmed M124- Sri Lankan (most likely a Sinhalese Buddhist) who has DYS426 = 12 and DYS392 = 10 and one is a confirmed M124- Indian (most likely from Karnataka or Andhra Pradesh - both states are in South India) who has DYS426 = 13 and DYS392 = 10.

I suspect that these three men all belong to a pre-M124 branch of R2a. I personally think you most likely come under a pre-M124 branch of R2a as well. Assuming you come under here, they (FTDNA, YFull and possibly ISOGG) may look at the SNP's currently under R2a and see which ones you're negative for. This could lead to a split between M479 and M124. If you came under a pre-M124 branch of R2a then M124 would get pushed down to R2a1 and you would eventually be assigned R2a* (and later a new branch hopefully). When your results are ready and you're on the R2-M124-WTY project, I'll contact Abdulaziz about you and ask if he can contact the men I just mentioned and see if he can get then to purchase a WGS or even just new SNP's that were discovered in your results.

Interestingly enough, there are also two Arab men from the same clan who have DYS426 = 12 (R2a) and DYS392 = 12 (R2b). They're M207+ however they haven't been tested either for M479 or M173.

Here's a link (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Z7_Swc5XqIWwYZFnvBLa96ecrfFf5ejnpOTJZc2-pZk/edit?usp=sharing) to my MRCA STR spreadsheet in case you're interested.

There already seem to be a few pre-M124 R2a samples on FTDNA, with varying trajectories (all the way from Kazakhstan to South India). Assuming Awan01 also comes under here, this could point to R-M124 originating a little closer to South/Central Asia or Central Asia then just originating in the Zagros (albeit travelling in the same direction). It is also a possibility that R2a (xM124) originated in South/Central or Central Asia but R-M124 originated in the Zagros region. Fortunately, he's ordered a Big Y-700 while it was on offer.

East/Southeast Iraq currently serves as a decent proxy for Iran on YFull and FTDNA, which works for now I guess.

Amber29
05-03-2019, 07:16 PM
Speaking of this, I analysed the STRs of a Punjabi Khatri who reliably appears to be FGC13203+ and possibly F1092-. So thats another Kshatriya under FGC13203 - Hopefully this helps you a bit more :D

You might want to say all of this to your dad - his intuition seems good lol

Interesting you say this, because i get alot of Khatri matches and then after its jatts.

parasar
05-04-2019, 07:24 PM
... My personal guess for R2-M479's location of origin (from the rather extensive research I've done - don't mean to toot my own horn lol) is somewhere around North Afghanistan, so both guesses aren't too far off.

Very plausible as we a have presence of P-M45 xM242 xM207 in southern India (6 samples in Arunkumar dataset*) .
ANE looks to have entered South Asia in the P form, with one of the P lines forming R and Q near the Baikal with R1 and R2 splitting somewhere close the Hindu Kush.
Under this scenario the most basal Andaman P (https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?8066-DISCUSSION-THREAD-FOR-quot-Genetic-Genealogy-and-Ancient-DNA-in-the-News-quot&p=560085&viewfull=1#post560085) would be a line that dead-ended there. https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?8066-DISCUSSION-THREAD-FOR-quot-Genetic-Genealogy-and-Ancient-DNA-in-the-News-quot&p=561129&viewfull=1#post561129

*https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article/figure/image?download&size=large&id=info:doi/10.1371/annotation/8663819b-5ff0-4133-b70a-2d686dfb0a44.t002.cn

tipirneni
05-04-2019, 08:10 PM
Very plausible as we a have presence of P-M45 xM242 xM207 in southern India (6 samples in Arunkumar dataset*) .
ANE looks to have entered South Asia in the P form, with one of the P lines forming R and Q near the Baikal with R1 and R2 splitting somewhere close the Hindu Kush.
Under this scenario the most basal Andaman P (https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?8066-DISCUSSION-THREAD-FOR-quot-Genetic-Genealogy-and-Ancient-DNA-in-the-News-quot&p=560085&viewfull=1#post560085) would be a line that dead-ended there.

*https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article/figure/image?download&size=large&id=info:doi/10.1371/annotation/8663819b-5ff0-4133-b70a-2d686dfb0a44.t002.cn

Some are still speculating that P might infact be a unknown Q branch or untested R2 branch especially in South Asia. It is present in 3-4% North Brahmins. Also K is present in similar freq. Same story there.

https://haplomaps.com/haplogroup-p/

aaronbee2010
05-04-2019, 08:25 PM
Very plausible as we a have presence of P-M45 xM242 xM207 in southern India (6 samples in Arunkumar dataset*) .
ANE looks to have entered South Asia in the P form, with one of the P lines forming R and Q near the Baikal with R1 and R2 splitting somewhere close the Hindu Kush.
Under this scenario the most basal Andaman P (https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?8066-DISCUSSION-THREAD-FOR-quot-Genetic-Genealogy-and-Ancient-DNA-in-the-News-quot&p=560085&viewfull=1#post560085) would be a line that dead-ended there.

*https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article/figure/image?download&size=large&id=info:doi/10.1371/annotation/8663819b-5ff0-4133-b70a-2d686dfb0a44.t002.cn

https://www.yfull.com/tree/K-Y28299/

There is even a branch of K parallel to NO that has 3 South Indian (2 from Andhra Pradesh and 1 from Kerala). South, Central and SC Asia seem to be very significant as far as K2 is concerned.

thejkhan
05-04-2019, 09:45 PM
Very plausible as we a have presence of P-M45 xM242 xM207 in southern India (6 samples in Arunkumar dataset*) .


R2b (along w/ R1a*) would be R-M207 xM17 xM124 --- highest frequency in Brahmins.

That P is neither Q nor R as those are already tested for.

aaronbee2010
05-05-2019, 10:08 AM
R2b (along w/ R1a*) would be R-M207 xM17 xM124 --- highest frequency in Brahmins.

That P is neither Q nor R as those are already tested for.

R1b is also R-M207 (xM17, M124) as well.

parasar
05-05-2019, 03:11 PM
https://www.yfull.com/tree/K-Y28299/

There is even a branch of K parallel to NO that has 3 South Indian (2 from Andhra Pradesh and 1 from Kerala). South, Central and SC Asia seem to be very significant as far as K2 is concerned.

That is correct.
We can think of the NO branch as CTS11667+, Z4842/M2308+ though as presently defined NO is downstream. https://yfull.com/arch-5.08/tree/NO/



Some are still speculating that P might infact be a unknown Q branch or untested R2 branch especially in South Asia. It is present in 3-4% North Brahmins. Also K is present in similar freq. Same story there.

https://haplomaps.com/haplogroup-p/

As thejkhan noted R2 is not possible as the P samples are xM207.
The K could be M184+ or pre NO, etc.

aaronbee2010
05-07-2019, 12:02 PM
Would this be a sensible estimation for the migration path of K-Y28299 relative to K-M2235 (parent clade of NO and K-Y28299)? Sorry if my guesses for the origin locations of N and O are wrong, I'm not much of an expert on them.

https://i.ibb.co/Ybck9K1/K-M2235.png

tipirneni
05-07-2019, 02:39 PM
Would this be a sensible estimation for the migration path of K-Y28299 relative to K-M2235 (parent clade of NO and K-Y28299)? Sorry if my guesses for the origin locations of N and O are wrong, I'm not much of an expert on them.

https://i.ibb.co/Ybck9K1/K-M2235.png

the Toba catastrophe marks the beginning of the expansion of Y-DNA K2 and mtDNA N, although it is quite possible that some other lineages like C were also involved in secondary roles in this secondary, yet so influential, expansion in Asia and Oceania.
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-wsNAS_dNkfg/U5L1ztBrjfI/AAAAAAAACso/DsrzZsJRtM4/s1600/Y-DNA-K-Sundaland-arrows.png

http://forwhattheywereweare.blogspot.com/2014/06/y-dna-macro-haplogroup-k-m526.html

parasar
05-07-2019, 04:37 PM
Would this be a sensible estimation for the migration path of K-Y28299 relative to K-M2235 (parent clade of NO and K-Y28299)? Sorry if my guesses for the origin locations of N and O are wrong, I'm not much of an expert on them.

https://i.ibb.co/Ybck9K1/K-M2235.png

I suspect that Ust Ishim may have wandered north-west from the Kara Bom area.

https://static.cambridge.org/resource/id/urn:cambridge.org:id:binary-alt:20180214074158-83219-optimisedImage-S0003598X18000042_fig1g.jpg

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4753769/bin/nihms756266f1.jpg

"Isotope analysis suggests that Ust'-Ishim man's diet included fish, and he was discovered not far from the Kara-Bom site, at which such artefacts have been found. So it seems likely that these were the kinds of objects he used."
https://phys.org/news/2014-10-ancient-human-bone-reveals-bred.html

"It is possible that the Ust’-Ishim individual was associated with the Asian variant of Initial Upper Paleolithic industry, documented at sites such as Kara-Bom in the Altai Mountains at about 47,000 yrs BP"
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4753769/

aaronbee2010
05-07-2019, 05:10 PM
I suspect that Ust Ishim may have wandered north-west from the Kara Bom area.

https://static.cambridge.org/resource/id/urn:cambridge.org:id:binary-alt:20180214074158-83219-optimisedImage-S0003598X18000042_fig1g.jpg

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4753769/bin/nihms756266f1.jpg

"Isotope analysis suggests that Ust'-Ishim man's diet included fish, and he was discovered not far from the Kara-Bom site, at which such artefacts have been found. So it seems likely that these were the kinds of objects he used."
https://phys.org/news/2014-10-ancient-human-bone-reveals-bred.html

"It is possible that the Ust’-Ishim individual was associated with the Asian variant of Initial Upper Paleolithic industry, documented at sites such as Kara-Bom in the Altai Mountains at about 47,000 yrs BP"
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4753769/

There seems to be a roughly 5000-year-large gap between the TMRCA values K-M2335 and NO according to YFull. Considering Ust'-Ishim man seems to be dated to a time sometime around the formation of K-M2335, it's looks like K-M1335 spread out very strongly throughout East Asia long before the formation of NO.

aaronbee2010
05-13-2019, 01:04 PM
the Toba catastrophe marks the beginning of the expansion of Y-DNA K2 and mtDNA N, although it is quite possible that some other lineages like C were also involved in secondary roles in this secondary, yet so influential, expansion in Asia and Oceania.

From what I've seen, the Toba catastrophe occured around 75000 years ago (Ninkovich et al. 1978) whereas K2 appears to have formed only around 55000 years ago at the most (Fu et al. 2014).

parasar
05-13-2019, 02:31 PM
From what I've seen, the Toba catastrophe occured around 75000 years ago (Ninkovich et al. 1978) whereas K2 appears to have formed only around 55000 years ago at the most (Fu et al. 2014).

The theory would be that from 75000 to 60000 ybp humans were recovering from the Toba devastation in parts of SE Asia and parts of Africa. And around 60000 years before present they radiate out of SE Asia reaching Australia soon thereafter and the rest of Eurasia by about 55000 to 45000 ybp.

Some folk though are rethinking Toba's destruction in that pockets of humans may have survived YTT elsewhere in Eurasia west of Toba.

parasar
05-13-2019, 06:37 PM
The theory would be that from 75000 to 60000 ybp humans were recovering from the Toba devastation in parts of SE Asia and parts of Africa. And around 60000 years before present they radiate out of SE Asia reaching Australia soon thereafter and the rest of Eurasia by about 55000 to 45000 ybp.

Some folk though are rethinking Toba's destruction in that pockets of humans may have survived YTT elsewhere in Eurasia west of Toba.

Human occupation of northern Australia by 65,000 years ago
https://www.nature.com/articles/nature22968

"Editorial Summary
First Australian foray pushed further into the past
When did humans first colonize Australia? The date of the initial landing on the continent that is now associated with cold lager and 'Waltzing Matilda' has been highly controversial. Dates from a site called Madjedbebe in northern Australia had put the presence of modern humans in Australia at between 60,000 and 50,000 years ago, but these results have since been hotly contested. Here, the results from a comprehensive program of dating of new excavations at the site confirm that people first arrived there around 65,000 years ago. The results show that humans reached Australia well before the extinction of the Australian megafauna and the disappearance of Homo floresiensis in neighbouring Indonesia. "

Amber29
08-06-2019, 09:01 PM
UPDATE! - my dad has been TESTED positive for FGC61415 G+

indusnomad
08-22-2019, 02:50 PM
Hi all - my Y-haplogroup is R2a1 (L295). Can't figure out if this spread into South Asia from Central Asia or Neolithic Iran? Also is it an Ancient North Eurasian lineage?

aaronbee2010
08-23-2019, 03:21 PM
Hi all - my Y-haplogroup is R2a1 (L295). Can't figure out if this spread into South Asia from Central Asia or Neolithic Iran? Also is it an Ancient North Eurasian lineage?

Hello! R-L295 currently comes under R2a2b1b2b (R2a1 is from older ISOGG trees, which 23andMe is unfortunately based on).

R-L295 is descended from R-M124, whose oldest samples were found in Neolithic Iran. Various clades of R-M124 have a distribution around West Asia and South Asia (the latter in much higher numbers). It's best to assume R-M124 and R-L295 originated somewhere around West Iran.

R-M479 appears to have originated in Central or South Central Asia, but that's another discussion :)

indusnomad
08-23-2019, 06:52 PM
Thanks for the clarification! So R-M124 descended from R-M479 which descended from R-M207?

aaronbee2010
08-23-2019, 07:13 PM
Thanks for the clarification! So R-M124 descended from R-M479 which descended from R-M207?

Precisely.

indusnomad
08-28-2019, 04:11 PM
Precisely.

Thanks! So did R-M124 arrive in South Asia via Iranian Neolithic Farmers before the Indus Valley Civilization?

aaronbee2010
08-28-2019, 11:12 PM
Thanks! So did R-M124 arrive in South Asia via Iranian Neolithic Farmers before the Indus Valley Civilization?

It appears to have entered in multiple waves from Neolithic Iranian farmers, through the Indus Valley Civilisation, and even BMAC civilisations after the fall of the IVC, however all of those migrations can be traced to Western Iran (around the Zagros region) as the starting point.

R2-L295 appears to mainly be associated with pre-IVC and IVC waves. Out of the two subclades of R-L295, R-Y1280 appears to be mainly pre-IVC-related whereas R-Y1334 appears to be mainly IVC-related. Considering R-L295 is among the very first West Eurasian lineages to enter South Asia (J2-Z2432 being another good example) and was present at various stages of the IVC, one of the oldest recorded civilisations, you definitely have a lineage with a rich history behind it.

indusnomad
08-29-2019, 07:45 PM
Thanks! How do I find out my subclade?

Amber29
08-29-2019, 09:14 PM
Thanks! How do I find out my subclade?

you literally share both haplogroups with me LOL!

indusnomad
08-29-2019, 09:23 PM
Haha yes my Y haplogroup is R2 & mt haplogroup is W1c. I guess we're related LOL

aaronbee2010
08-30-2019, 09:03 PM
Thanks! How do I find out my subclade?

You essentially have two options:

1. Y-SNP testing with YSEQ - You can either get the R2-M479 Panel (https://www.yseq.net/product_info.php?cPath=27&products_id=56748) ($88 for panel and $6 for shipping) from YSEQ, which tests you positive for multiple SNPs under R2. In your case, they test for the following SNPs under L295:

https://i.gyazo.com/007847e72bf8161955acd451854426e8.png

You can also test for individual SNPs under L295 for $18 each. The first SNP will also include $6 shipping however you can reuse your sample for subsequent SNPs and save the shipping fee.

If there's a SNP under L295 you want to test that isn't available with them (i.e. one you see on the YFull tree but not the YSEQ tree), you can add one to their store for $1 if the SNP meets their selection criteria then test for it afterwards. This applies to panel and individual SNP testing.

FTDNA also do SNP packs and individual SNPs however they're much more expensive and you have to purchase a Y-STR test first (their cheapest STR test is $58). Unless you want to be a part of their public database (which isn't even very good for South Asians anyway), it's really not worth the extra money.

2. Y-DNA sequencing with FGC and interpretation with YFull - you can have your entire Y chromosome sequenced for $380 (including FGCAG18 coupon code and $35 shipping). I messaged an FGC representative, and he told me he could do slow shipping for $10, which would make the price $355 with slow shipping, but you need to ask this yourself to make sure. I think this test sequences your mtDNA but you would need to clarify this as well - they've done this in the past but it's best to check to make sure. Since this test is designed for the Y chromosome, your mtDNA results might not be completely correct (some people get 100% accurate results and others get a few missed bases), but at least it's a bonus. You could ask what coverage the mtDNA gets from this test on average. YFull also do a $49 interpretation service, where you upload your raw data and they analyse your Y-DNA and mtDNA data, and place you on their handy Y-tree and mt-Tree. For your Y-DNA, they'll find your STR values (over 780 different STRs according to their websites)

This may seem like a silly choice when you look at the price, but it helps discover new SNPs that haven't been found yet, including SNPs that are unique to you and don't belong to any known sample under L295 yet. When other people in your subclade get tested and upload to YFull, new branches can be discovered around your subclade, which helps the L295 tree to grow.

This also means that if a new SNP is discovered, you're automatically tested for it as scanning your entire Y-chromosome means you'll already have a result for that SNP. If you just do SNP testing with YSEQ and a new SNP around yours is found, then you'll have to purchase a test for it separately.

If you don't want to front that amount of cash, then remember that sequencing is only getting cheaper over time, so you can wait for the price to go down before taking the plunge. Sequencing is the future of DNA testing, and as it becomes more widespread and efficient, that will drive the prices down, so the consumer ends up winning.

One word of warning would be that if you've purchased Y-SNP testing and now you decide you want to get your Y-DNA sequenced, then your previous tests will be made redundant as all of the SNPs YSEQ tested you for are already going to be tested for when your entire Y chromosome gets scanned. If you're going to go for Y-SNP testing then bear this in mind in case you choose to get your Y-DNA sequenced further down the line.

Again, FTDNA also do this service (Big Y-700, in reference to them testing you for 700 Y-STRs), but even on offer, it's around $508.99 including shipping. They interpret your data in the same way YFull does (finds SNPs, STRs and adds you to their Y-tree), so you don't need to get a YFull service, although I still recommend getting a YFull interpretation as well. Unlike YFull, FTDNA's database is exclusive to their customers, however for South Asians it's pretty underwhelming. They also filter out your mtDNA results before releasing them to you, so you would have to purchase their mtDNA sequencing service separately, which is around $149 on offer.

EDIT: YFull does age estimation. Provided certain conditions are met, they can estimate roughly how old a subclade is. More information here (https://www.yfull.com/).

crabmany
09-02-2019, 09:31 PM
Hi all,

I've read the thread and I please bear in mind am very new to all of this. Recently, while in China, I tested with a Chinese company called 23mofang.com

That said, I do not know how reliable their analysis is, however, it does not seem to be off the chart since I found out there are some people from E Slovakia, where I come from, with my haplogroup R2 - (F1092).

As for the next chromosomal mutation in the tree - R-F1758 - the analysis says "Detected but unmatched chromosomal mutations", while for the SNPs(?) below it simply says "Undetected chromosomal mutation". - I do not know how to interpret this. Any idea?


I am attaching the Y-DNA tree that is part of the analysis - (https://ibb.co/Nsm8w96)

(By the way, my mtDNA is - H2b - if that helps)

I decided to test with My heritage so I am waiting for the kit. They provide downloadable raw data and also I want to have that confirmed by two sources. Despite the Chinese 23mofang seems to use advanced technology, I am sceptical due to their focus on the East Asian market, so there's a chance their analysis is incorrect. I can use the results and upload it to FTDNA to get more insight and add more data into R2 tree.

Has anyone heard of that company?

Is there more insight into this haplogroup in Eastern part of Europe?

Any more information and recommendations welcome.

Thanks!
P.

aaronbee2010
09-03-2019, 01:23 AM
Hi all,

I've read the thread and I please bear in mind am very new to all of this. Recently, while in China, I tested with a Chinese company called 23mofang.com

That said, I do not know how reliable their analysis is, however, it does not seem to be off the chart since I found out there are some people from E Slovakia, where I come from, with my haplogroup R2 - (F1092).

As for the next chromosomal mutation in the tree - R-F1758 - the analysis says "Detected but unmatched chromosomal mutations", while for the SNPs(?) below it simply says "Undetected chromosomal mutation". - I do not know how to interpret this. Any idea?


I am attaching the Y-DNA tree that is part of the analysis - (https://ibb.co/Nsm8w96)

(By the way, my mtDNA is - H2b - if that helps)

I decided to test with My heritage so I am waiting for the kit. They provide downloadable raw data and also I want to have that confirmed by two sources. Despite the Chinese 23mofang seems to use advanced technology, I am sceptical due to their focus on the East Asian market, so there's a chance their analysis is incorrect. I can use the results and upload it to FTDNA to get more insight and add more data into R2 tree.

Has anyone heard of that company?

Is there more insight into this haplogroup in Eastern part of Europe?

Any more information and recommendations welcome.

Thanks!
P.

Hello.

The website is saying you're negative for the F1758 mutation. As you've alluded to, there are 4 Slovaks (and 2 other Eastern Europeans) on FTDNA's "R2-M124-WTY" project who are also F1092+, F1758-, who all appear to come under one cluster of people with a relatively recent common ancestor. Unfortunately, not all of them are on FTDNA's "R2 and all subclades" project (where I'm a co-administrator), unfortunately!

View the results page here (https://www.familytreedna.com/public/R2-M124-WTY?iframe=yresults), and search for "003- (M479+, M124+, P267+, FGC13203+, FGC13192+, F1092+), (Max GD=6/37)". You can see if your surname matches one of theirs.

It's hard to say when and how their F1092* (F1758-) made it's way into Eastern Europe, as they all seem to be pretty closely related (perhaps within the last 500 years) so F1092* could've entered Eastern Europe anywhere between 500-7500 years ago, and we can't narrow this further without more people under this Slovak cluster purchasing Y-DNA sequencing tests.

By the way, MyHeritage only tests for a limited number of SNPs on the Y chromosome, as it's mainly geared towards autosomal DNA (in this aspect, MyHeritage is a fantastic test). You'll probably get less detail on this test than 23mofang, however the autosomal results from MyHeritage will still be very good for various purposes, so it's not like you wasted money, fortunately.

If you want to verify specific SNPs, you can test individual Y-SNPs with YSEQ, however in your case, the F1092+, F1758- result 23mofang gave you is very consistent with the geography of other F1092+, F1758- Eastern European men, who are mostly Slovakian, just like yourself.

Also, you can only upload autosomal results to FTDNA, not anything relating to the Y chromosome. Their Y-DNA database is exclusive for their customers, I'm afraid! The only way to "add" data to the R2 tree and make it grow is a Y-DNA sequence, which is an expensive ($350-500) option, although definitely worth the cost, as it's pretty much the last Y-DNA test you'll ever need to do, as your results can be continuously updated when new subclades are discovered, as more people under your cluster help grow the R2 branches around you. You're scanned for the majority of positions on the Y chromosome, which includes all known SNPs, as well as SNPs not yet discovered. You're also tested for 700+ STR's, which you can compare to the STR's of the men I mentioned above to see how close you are to men (and to future men in/around your cluster who purchase an STR test but not a sequence. If a new subclade is discovered, you can check your data for the SNPs in that subclade to see if you have them or not, without having to purchase those SNPs separately.

Nice to see another fellow R2 on Anthrogenica. Quite a few have joined here recently, which is very nice to see :)

crabmany
09-03-2019, 09:24 PM
Hello.

The website is saying you're negative for the F1758 mutation. As you've alluded to, there are 4 Slovaks (and 2 other Eastern Europeans) on FTDNA's "R2-M124-WTY" project who are also F1092+, F1758-, who all appear to come under one cluster of people with a relatively recent common ancestor. Unfortunately, not all of them are on FTDNA's "R2 and all subclades" project (where I'm a co-administrator), unfortunately!

View the results page here (https://www.familytreedna.com/public/R2-M124-WTY?iframe=yresults), and search for "003- (M479+, M124+, P267+, FGC13203+, FGC13192+, F1092+), (Max GD=6/37)". You can see if your surname matches one of theirs.

It's hard to say when and how their F1092* (F1758-) made it's way into Eastern Europe, as they all seem to be pretty closely related (perhaps within the last 500 years) so F1092* could've entered Eastern Europe anywhere between 500-7500 years ago, and we can't narrow this further without more people under this Slovak cluster purchasing Y-DNA sequencing tests.

By the way, MyHeritage only tests for a limited number of SNPs on the Y chromosome, as it's mainly geared towards autosomal DNA (in this aspect, MyHeritage is a fantastic test). You'll probably get less detail on this test than 23mofang, however the autosomal results from MyHeritage will still be very good for various purposes, so it's not like you wasted money, fortunately.

If you want to verify specific SNPs, you can test individual Y-SNPs with YSEQ, however in your case, the F1092+, F1758- result 23mofang gave you is very consistent with the geography of other F1092+, F1758- Eastern European men, who are mostly Slovakian, just like yourself.

Also, you can only upload autosomal results to FTDNA, not anything relating to the Y chromosome. Their Y-DNA database is exclusive for their customers, I'm afraid! The only way to "add" data to the R2 tree and make it grow is a Y-DNA sequence, which is an expensive ($350-500) option, although definitely worth the cost, as it's pretty much the last Y-DNA test you'll ever need to do, as your results can be continuously updated when new subclades are discovered, as more people under your cluster help grow the R2 branches around you. You're scanned for the majority of positions on the Y chromosome, which includes all known SNPs, as well as SNPs not yet discovered. You're also tested for 700+ STR's, which you can compare to the STR's of the men I mentioned above to see how close you are to men (and to future men in/around your cluster who purchase an STR test but not a sequence. If a new subclade is discovered, you can check your data for the SNPs in that subclade to see if you have them or not, without having to purchase those SNPs separately.

Nice to see another fellow R2 on Anthrogenica. Quite a few have joined here recently, which is very nice to see :)

Hi!

Thanks for the exhaustive reply and the welcoming words!:)

Indeed, it seems like the R2 tree has been proliferating recently.


The company, 23mofang, provides quite an advanced analytics compared to other major company, however, their (rather poor) ethnicity estimate made me sceptical about the results:

Europe 100%:

Nordic 47.57%
Southern Europe 32.07%
British 20.35%

I do not think I have any "British" ancestry whatsoever. At least I do not know how that would be possible. Though, I suppose that the ethnicity itself is more about the interpretation, and the Chinese company rather lacks the data on he European population to perfom a proper assessment.

It's a shame that FTDNA allows only its customers to join the projects. I didn't order their test due to the fact that the company has no distribution centre in Europe and it takes a long time for the kit to arrive from the US, and I simply didn't want to wait 6-8 weeks for that.

As for the R2 making its way to Eastern Slovakia, neither can I explain much of that. I belong to a recognised minority in Slovakia called Rusyn/Carpatho-Rusyn/Ruthenian ( They got their own group on FTDNA - https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/carpatho-rusyn/about). However, this is cultural and I don't think I can attribute any ethnical origin to the population group. This minority is often called Kurds of Europe, or even saw them being compared them to the Basques (due to the lack of their own nation state). The minority needs more investigation so I suppose hence the dedicated project on FTDNA website. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rusyns). Here's a genetic study that I found and was done on the Ruthenians if you're interested to read on that. (http://faculty.gvsu.edu/nikitin/HumBiol_09.pdf)

That said, The people matching my R-F1092 were clustered on the map in the Eastern Slovakia, but none of the surnames matches mine. However, due to the complexity of the history of that region (Hungarization, invasion of Turkic tribes etc.) the surnames could've been changed. What makes it more challenging for me is the fact that I have never met my paternal grandfather as he died before I was born so I cannot ask many questions.

I will now await the results from MyHeritage and think further whether Full Y-DNA by FTDNA is something worth for me to invest in.

If you have any advice where I could find the latest info or investigate further, I will be glad for any source you might be familiar with:)

Tomasso29
09-04-2019, 03:21 PM
Is there more insight into this haplogroup in Eastern part of Europe?

Welcome aboard...

The Slovakian branch seems rather interesting, because on the surface one would suspect of potential Jewish heritage, but that does not seem the case since the Jewish samples are F1758+ while the Slovakian ones are F1758-.

Nevertheless, it's probably an ancestor that came to Europe long ago from the Middle East or Central Asia.

aaronbee2010
09-13-2019, 05:56 PM
I7722 (Saidu_Sharif_o) calls (excluding no-calls):

R2-Y1376:

Z29272+ (1 derived read)
Y1379+ (3 derived reads)

R2-FGC49531:

FGC49547- (2 ancestral reads)
FGC49535- (1 ancestral read)
FGC49530- (1 ancestral read)

R2-Z29271:

Z29271? (5 ancestral and 5 derived reads)

R2-Y1383:

Z29291- (1 ancestral read)
Z29301- (1 ancestral read)
Z29289- (1 ancestral read)
Y1382- (1 derived read)
Z6135- (5 ancestral and 1 derived reads)

Final haplogroup designation: R2-Y1376* or R2-Z29271*

Considering that YFull has 1 South Asian (IN-GJ) sample under R2-Z29271* and no samples under R2-Y1376*, I think it's more likely this sample belonged to R2-Z29271*.

aaronbee2010
09-16-2019, 04:11 PM
I7722 (Saidu_Sharif_o) calls (excluding no-calls):

R2-Y1376:

Z29272+ (1 derived read)
Y1379+ (3 derived reads)

R2-FGC49531:

FGC49547- (2 ancestral reads)
FGC49535- (1 ancestral read)
FGC49530- (1 ancestral read)

R2-Z29271:

Z29271? (5 ancestral and 5 derived reads)

R2-Y1383:

Z29291- (1 ancestral read)
Z29301- (1 ancestral read)
Z29289- (1 ancestral read)
Y1382- (1 derived read)
Z6135- (5 ancestral and 1 derived reads)

Final haplogroup designation: R2-Y1376* or R2-Z29271*

Considering that YFull has 1 South Asian (IN-GJ) sample under R2-Z29271* and no samples under R2-Y1376*, I think it's more likely this sample belonged to R2-Z29271*.

It's also worth mentioning the derived reads for Z29271 had better mapping quality, which makes it even more likely that I7722 was R2-Z29271*

aaronbee2010
11-24-2019, 06:33 PM
It's also worth mentioning the derived reads for Z29271 had better mapping quality, which makes it even more likely that I7722 was R2-Z29271*

I've compared this sample to another sample on YFull that comes under the R2-Z29271* paragroup (NA20887), and I've found a common SNP that I7722 and NA20887 are positive for, that HG01586 (R2-Y1383 > Y154917) is negative for, and it just happens to already be in the YBrowse database. Perhaps more variants could've been found if I7722 had better Y-DNA coverage, but I can't ask for much from ancient DNA. In any case, here is the SNP in question:

Name: FT67423
Position (hg38): 8988358
Mutation: C to T

Looking at a vcf file for I7722 that I generated, I could see that the FT67423 mutation has QUAL = 51.7845 (generally, a value of 30 or higher is considered reliable) and has 2 reads (both derived) at that position for I7722, so I would consider that fairly reliable. For comparison, NA20887 has 21 reads at that position that were all derived and HG01586 has 13 reads at that position, all of which are ancestral.

Other possible mutations unique to I7722 and NA20887 had mixed reads, so I didn't include them.

Since FT67423 is on the YBrowse database but not on YFull, it probably also exists as a private mutation in another haplogroup, but there are a few mutations that do exist in more than one haplogroup. As far as R2-Z29271 and downstream subclades go, this mutation appears to be unique to I7722 and NA20887.

All of this seems to strongly suggest that I7722 belonged to paragroup R2-Z29271*, along with what I've said in my previous post above.

crabmany
11-24-2019, 06:34 PM
Hi,

I mentioned here earlier that I was awaiting results from MyHeritage (MH), which as aaronbee2010 correctly pointed out, is only an autosomal test. Recently, I received my results and it did point to some Ashkenazi heritage:

Europe
100.0%

Balkan 39.5% | Baltic 30.8% | East European 24.0% | Ashkenazi Jewish 3.4% | Scandinavian 2.3%

Now, I don't know how reliable those estimates from MH really are. I am currently regarding the Ashkenazi estimate as " a noise" coming from their data due to the fact that: a) % is quite low, b) I'm not aware of any AJ heritage and c) I was identified as F1758-, which according to what I read on the forum, doesn't indicate Jewish heritage.

Now, MyHeritage has a DNA matching tool, where you can filter your matches per ethnicity. However, I do have several matches where people are identified between 85-100% Ashkenazi.

I am attaching some screenshots: https://www.dropbox.com/s/79ha4118sy3ep5f/MyHeritage%20-%20AJ%20matches.pdf?dl=0

My question for more experienced members here. Could the DNA matches be regarded as hard proof of at least "some" AJ heritage? Or doesn't it mean much and MH's algorithm or data are simply faulty?

Also, if that is indeed a proof of AJ heritage, would that mean that F1092+ | f1758- should belong amongst Ashkenazi samples (provided it doesn't come from my mother's side)?

Thank you!

aaronbee2010
11-24-2019, 08:37 PM
Hi,

I mentioned here earlier that I was awaiting results from MyHeritage (MH), which as aaronbee2010 correctly pointed, is only an autosomal test. Recently, I received my results and it did point to some Ashkenazi heritage:

Europe
100.0%

Balkan 39.5% | Baltic 30.8% | East European 24.0% | Ashkenazi Jewish 3.4% | Scandinavian 2.3%

Now, I don't know how reliable those estimates from MH really are. I am currently regarding the Ashkenazi estimate as " a noise" coming from their data due to the fact that: a) % is quite low, b) I'm not aware of any AJ heritage and c) I was identified as F1758-, which according to what I read on the forum, doesn't indicate Jewish heritage.

Now, MyHeritage has a DNA matching tool, where you can filter your matches per ethnicity. However, I do have several matches where people are identified between 85-100% Ashkenazi.

I am attaching some screenshots: https://www.dropbox.com/s/79ha4118sy3ep5f/MyHeritage%20-%20AJ%20matches.pdf?dl=0

My question for more experienced members here. Could the DNA matches be regarded as hard proof of at least "some" AJ heritage? Or it doesn't mean much and MH's algorithm or data are simply faulty?

Also, if that is indeed a proof of AJ heritage, would that mean that F1092+ | f1758- should belong amongst Ashkenazi samples?

Thank you!

It may be an option for you to consider using Admixture Studio 1.7 or GEDmatch and upload your MyHeritage results and run Eurogenes K15 and/or JTest and look at your closest populations. There is a sizeable Jewish community on Anthrogenica who can help you with your results if need be.

I score 18.4% European on MyHeritage (this is ancient PC_Steppe ancestry, and not recent European ancestry btw) and I get a few European (inc. white Americans) matches, however these matches appear to be "Identical by State" and not "Identical by Descent". It's hard to say what parts of these Ashkenazi Jews you're matching with - they do appear to have significant Eastern European admixture if my memory serves me well. I'm no expert on Jewish genetics though, so the aforementioned community would help you a lot more than I could in this regard.

So far, every Jewish sample who comes under R2a comes either under R-FGC13201 or R-L288. This could change with more samples, but for now, your subclade is very unlikely to be Jewish. If you have Ashkenazi ancestry, it could be via any of your ancestral lines, not just your direct paternal line.

crabmany
11-25-2019, 07:00 PM
Thanks!

Indeed. You're making a good point here. Doesn't mean much for the R2a line as the "Jewish" part can come from anywhere in my paternal/maternal line.

I didn't assign too much weight to the Ashkenazi matches on MH, but since I matched with people who are 95-100% Ashkenazi, I considered it to be significant enough to at least to ask and investigate a bit. Indeed, they are E European, and their ancestral surnames, based on the family trees I saw on MH were often changed to sound more English.

I ran my results through both GED match calculators you suggested. The interpretation of the results is difficult for me, as expected. Even though I understand how the computation of distances between clusters in statistics works, I do not know what I am exactly looking for in those results to confirm the hypothesis (even if I use the "spreadsheet" for reference). I read that JTest is quite useless if you don't have a very recent AJ ancestry, but perhaps someone is able to interpret that. So I will move my research out of the R2a thread.

Nevertheless, I will post the results here in case someone researching R2a finds it useful in the future:

EU K15:
Population Percent
1 Baltic 26.09
2 North_Sea 17.58
3 Eastern_Euro 17.39
4 Atlantic 15.45
5 West_Med 9.66
6 East_Med 9.41
7 Amerindian 1.81
8 West_Asian 1.37

Using 1 population approximation:
1 Croatian @ 7.869097
2 Ukrainian @ 9.151781
3 Ukrainian_Lviv @ 9.211701
4 South_Polish @ 9.405608
5 Moldavian @ 9.737396

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% Lithuanian +50% Serbian @ 6.102593


Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% Lithuanian +25% Ukrainian +25% West_Sicilian @ 4.711325

Using 4 populations approximation:
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
1 Algerian_Jewish + Estonian + Estonian_Polish + Lithuanian @ 4.620570
2 Lithuanian + Lithuanian + Ukrainian + West_Sicilian @ 4.711325
3 Algerian_Jewish + Lithuanian + Lithuanian + Polish @ 4.730414
4 Estonian_Polish + Lithuanian + Ukrainian + West_Sicilian @ 4.756569
5 Algerian_Jewish + Lithuanian + Lithuanian + Ukrainian @ 4.794123
6 Algerian_Jewish + Estonian + Lithuanian + Lithuanian @ 4.816090
7 Algerian_Jewish + Estonian_Polish + Lithuanian + Lithuanian @ 4.850786


JTest
1 SOUTH_BALTIC 28.16
2 EAST_EURO 20.76
3 NORTH-CENTRAL_EURO 13.79
4 ATLANTIC 11.17
5 WEST_MED 8.71
6 EAST_MED 8.38
7 ASHKENAZI 6.79
8 MIDDLE_EASTERN 1.22


1 UA @ 8.245784
2 Ukrainian-Russian @ 8.811917
3 PL @ 9.513432
4 West_Russian @ 10.449728
5 Belorussian @ 11.619851
6 HU @ 12.553335

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% Northwest_Russian +50% RO @ 6.157075


Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% Northwest_Russian +25% Northwest_Russian +25% South_Italian_&_Sicilian @ 5.342061


Using 4 populations approximation:
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
1 AJ + Belorussian + Northwest_Russian + Northwest_Russian @ 5.177225
2 AJ + Northwest_Russian + Northwest_Russian + Northwest_Russian @ 5.193945
3 GR + Northwest_Russian + Northwest_Russian + Northwest_Russian @ 5.308021
4 AJ + Northwest_Russian + Northwest_Russian + UA @ 5.322845
5 AJ + Belorussian + Belorussian + Northwest_Russian @ 5.328925
6 Northwest_Russian + Northwest_Russian + Northwest_Russian + South_Italian_&_Sicilian @ 5.342061
7 AJ + Belorussian + LIT + Northwest_Russian @ 5.406764
8 AJ + LIT + Northwest_Russian + Northwest_Russian @ 5.412692

aaronbee2010
11-25-2019, 07:38 PM
Thanks!

Indeed. You're making a good point here. Doesn't mean much for the R2a line as the "Jewish" part can come from anywhere in my paternal/maternal line.

I didn't assign too much weight to the Ashkenazi matches on MH, but since I matched with people who are 95-100% Ashkenazi, I considered it to be significant enough to at least to ask and investigate a bit. Indeed, they are E European, and their ancestral surnames, based on the family trees I saw on MH were often changed to sound more English.

I ran my results through both GED match calculators you suggested. The interpretation of the results is difficult for me, as expected. Even though I understand how the computation of distances between clusters in statistics works, I do not know what I am exactly looking for in those results to confirm the hypothesis (even if I use the "spreadsheet" for reference). I read that JTest is quite useless if you don't have a very recent AJ ancestry, but perhaps someone is able to interpret that. So I will move my research out of the R2a thread.

Nevertheless, I will post the results here in case someone researching R2a finds it useful in the future:

EU K15:
Population Percent
1 Baltic 26.09
2 North_Sea 17.58
3 Eastern_Euro 17.39
4 Atlantic 15.45
5 West_Med 9.66
6 East_Med 9.41
7 Amerindian 1.81
8 West_Asian 1.37

Using 1 population approximation:
1 Croatian @ 7.869097
2 Ukrainian @ 9.151781
3 Ukrainian_Lviv @ 9.211701
4 South_Polish @ 9.405608
5 Moldavian @ 9.737396

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% Lithuanian +50% Serbian @ 6.102593


Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% Lithuanian +25% Ukrainian +25% West_Sicilian @ 4.711325

Using 4 populations approximation:
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
1 Algerian_Jewish + Estonian + Estonian_Polish + Lithuanian @ 4.620570
2 Lithuanian + Lithuanian + Ukrainian + West_Sicilian @ 4.711325
3 Algerian_Jewish + Lithuanian + Lithuanian + Polish @ 4.730414
4 Estonian_Polish + Lithuanian + Ukrainian + West_Sicilian @ 4.756569
5 Algerian_Jewish + Lithuanian + Lithuanian + Ukrainian @ 4.794123
6 Algerian_Jewish + Estonian + Lithuanian + Lithuanian @ 4.816090
7 Algerian_Jewish + Estonian_Polish + Lithuanian + Lithuanian @ 4.850786


JTest
1 SOUTH_BALTIC 28.16
2 EAST_EURO 20.76
3 NORTH-CENTRAL_EURO 13.79
4 ATLANTIC 11.17
5 WEST_MED 8.71
6 EAST_MED 8.38
7 ASHKENAZI 6.79
8 MIDDLE_EASTERN 1.22


1 UA @ 8.245784
2 Ukrainian-Russian @ 8.811917
3 PL @ 9.513432
4 West_Russian @ 10.449728
5 Belorussian @ 11.619851
6 HU @ 12.553335

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% Northwest_Russian +50% RO @ 6.157075


Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% Northwest_Russian +25% Northwest_Russian +25% South_Italian_&_Sicilian @ 5.342061


Using 4 populations approximation:
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
1 AJ + Belorussian + Northwest_Russian + Northwest_Russian @ 5.177225
2 AJ + Northwest_Russian + Northwest_Russian + Northwest_Russian @ 5.193945
3 GR + Northwest_Russian + Northwest_Russian + Northwest_Russian @ 5.308021
4 AJ + Northwest_Russian + Northwest_Russian + UA @ 5.322845
5 AJ + Belorussian + Belorussian + Northwest_Russian @ 5.328925
6 Northwest_Russian + Northwest_Russian + Northwest_Russian + South_Italian_&_Sicilian @ 5.342061
7 AJ + Belorussian + LIT + Northwest_Russian @ 5.406764
8 AJ + LIT + Northwest_Russian + Northwest_Russian @ 5.412692

Your oracles don't suggest that you have any significant Jewish admixture, if any at all.

Of course, you may still ask others here about your results, but from what I've seen, your oracles seem pretty consistent with those of an Eastern European.

The K15 oracles suggest that you could be modelled as 1/4 Algerian Jewish, but the fits aren't that different to being modelled as a mix of Lithuanian, Ukrainian and West Sicilian.

If you ever consider getting G25 coordinates from your MyHeritage files, you could see how you model compared to reference populations in a lot more detail. There are plenty of people on here who can explain G25 in far more detail than I ever could.

crabmany
11-25-2019, 08:28 PM
Your oracles don't suggest that you have any significant Jewish admixture, if any at all.

Of course, you may still ask others here about your results, but from what I've seen, your oracles seem pretty consistent with those of an Eastern European.

The K15 oracles suggest that you could be modelled as 1/4 Algerian Jewish, but the fits aren't that different to being modelled as a mix of Lithuanian, Ukrainian and West Sicilian.

If you ever consider getting G25 coordinates from your MyHeritage files, you could see how you model compared to reference populations in a lot more detail. There are plenty of people on here who can explain G25 in far more detail than I ever could.


Ah, okay. Then I'll just consider it noise and misinterpretation from MyHeritage then.

I am not sure what G25 is, though. Do you happen to have instructions on how to extract the mentioned coordinates? Thanks

aaronbee2010
11-25-2019, 10:48 PM
Ah, okay. Then I'll just consider it noise and misinterpretation from MyHeritage then.

I am not sure what G25 is, though. Do you happen to have instructions on how to extract the mentioned coordinates? Thanks

To be honest, it's probably the Eastern European component of Ashkenazi Jews that you're matching with, it's the same reason I get 18.4% Celtic on MyHeritage despite not having a drop of Celtic blood in me. It's my ancient PC_Steppe component matching with theirs.

You have to go here (https://bga101.blogspot.com/2017/10/genetic-ancestry-online-store-to-be.html) and pay $12 along with sending Davidski (Generalissimo on Anthrogenica) your MyHeritage file.

After 1-2 days you should receive your coordinates, which can be used with various nMonte tools. There's a lot you can do with your coordinates, but I would only consider this if you're interested enough. You can ask the Jewish community here about your results and see what they say.

crabmany
11-27-2019, 09:22 PM
To be honest, it's probably the Eastern European component of Ashkenazi Jews that you're matching with, it's the same reason I get 18.4% Celtic on MyHeritage despite not having a drop of Celtic blood in me. It's my ancient PC_Steppe component matching with theirs.

You have to go here (https://bga101.blogspot.com/2017/10/genetic-ancestry-online-store-to-be.html) and pay $12 along with sending Davidski (Generalissimo on Anthrogenica) your MyHeritage file.

After 1-2 days you should receive your coordinates, which can be used with various nMonte tools. There's a lot you can do with your coordinates, but I would only consider this if you're interested enough. You can ask the Jewish community here about your results and see what they say.

Thanks for the analysis and your advice.

I will check the G25 and also ask around for an opinion in the Jewish community, and see whether MH estimate is worth to be investigated among my relatives.

aaronbee2010
12-01-2019, 01:46 PM
I've just made an experimental R2 tree that combines branching from YFull's, FTDNA's and ISOGG's trees. Please let me know if you have any feedback you want to give, or any other questions regarding the tree. Thank you :)

Link: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1xIu8OARMAboyfBNdkRTOekCVsKN-DHZOtF1JPKq7kqo/edit?usp=sharing

Babashakkari
06-24-2020, 07:41 PM
I've just made an experimental R2 tree that combines branching from YFull's, FTDNA's and ISOGG's trees. Please let me know if you have any feedback you want to give, or any other questions regarding the tree. Thank you :)

Link: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1xIu8OARMAboyfBNdkRTOekCVsKN-DHZOtF1JPKq7kqo/edit?usp=sharing

I got my test done through Living DNA, they provide Y haplogroup information as well, besides admixture. I am Y1283 ( R2 --> R-M124 --> R-P267 --> R-Y12100 --> R-Y8763 --> R-Y8766 --> R-V3714--> R-L295--> R-Y1283). This was provided by Living DNA in my results. I noticed you have Y1283 as R2a1a1a1a1b, while I have also seen it as R2a2b1b2b2 ( https://isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpR.html) I am new to this, hope you can explain.

Also, recently Living DNA updated their regions, they seem to provide more detail within South Asia when compared to other companies. https://support.livingdna.com/hc/en-us/articles/360019480992-Which-regions-can-we-compare-your-ancestry-with-. They let people upload raw files from some other companies as well. Although regions are mostly Pakistan/Afghanistan centric, but still a good tool for anyone with South Asian background.

aaronbee2010
06-25-2020, 12:10 AM
I got my test done through Living DNA, they provide Y haplogroup information as well, besides admixture. I am Y1283 ( R2 --> R-M124 --> R-P267 --> R-Y12100 --> R-Y8763 --> R-Y8766 --> R-V3714--> R-L295--? R-Y1283). This was provided by Living DNA in my results. I noticed you have Y1283 as R2a1a1a1a1b, while I have also seen it as R2a2b1b2b2 ( https://isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpR.html) I am new to this. Hope can explain.

Also, recently Living DNA updated their regions, they seem to provide more detail within South Asia when compared to other companies. https://support.livingdna.com/hc/en-us/articles/360019480992-Which-regions-can-we-compare-your-ancestry-with-

Thanks for posting your results. To answer your question, the experimental tree I have combines data from ISOGG, YFull and FTDNA, as some branches are only present in one or two of the trees. For example, several branches under SK2142 where I come under are present on the YFull and FTDNA trees but not the ISOGG tree. There are also other branches that have this issue as well. The purpose of my tree is to incorporate branch data from all of these trees into one source with a nomenclature in the same style as ISOGG.

Also, LivingDNA's results appear to be more accurate for me as well. It was giving me only 78% South Asia before (despite all of my recent ancestry almost certainly coming solely from Punjab) however they've moved it up to 88.1% now. It still doesn't beat 23andMe's results, which generally appear to be the most accurate one for South Asians, being practically the only vendor that doesn't mistake ancient Indo-European ancestry for modern European ancestry, although 23andMe's haplogroup assignments (especially for R2) leave a lot to be desired. I purchased my LivingDNA test over two years ago and still don't have any relative matches either (despite LivingDNA supporting external uploads). Personally, I think that haplogroup detail is the only thing LivingDNA has going for it, from a South Asians perspective.

tipirneni
06-25-2020, 05:18 PM
Looks like there is a big diversity in R2 clades which was not noticed before.

The former P clades seem to be now R2 M479 or R2a R-L266 as shown in 23andme, Then there is R2a1a1a1a1 which is R-L295 branch which was former R2a branch which has further R-l294 branch. There is also R-Y26630 further in one of the parallel branchs. Some previous studies have categorized the R-L266 as P.

Now there are other clades that Aaronbee has been showing which seem to originate in later movements into South Asia but still not understood right. Further there are R2a2, R2b etc... which are all clearly distinct from the R-L295 branches.


Distribution wise there is probably 50/50 split between R-L295 & downstream to R-L266 & related branches among Andhra groups. But only testing further should isolate more of these sub-branches. However looks like the overall figure for R2 in the South would have been overestimated before as shown in some studies. Small groups have been to shown to have like upto 80% R2 in some of previous studies. But it is probably much less dependent upon the specific caste.

Babashakkari
07-01-2020, 09:00 PM
Thanks for a detailed answer. I guess with more samples, we will get more refined results. I chose Living DNA for haplogroup information as well. I also uploaded my raw file at Myheritage. I have one relative match at LivingDNA and several at Myheritage. But only 3 matches ( 2 male, 1 female) are close enough to be actual relatives. Out of those 3 only one is communicating with me. But he does not have Haplogroup information, because MyHeritage only gives autosomal results. My father has passed away, but I am getting my mother's DNA done soon, to see if relationship narrows down with any of these 3 people. This will help me determine what side they are related from.

parasar
07-01-2020, 11:07 PM
Looks like there is a big diversity in R2 clades which was not noticed before.

The former P clades seem to be now R2 M479 or R2a R-L266 as shown in 23andme, Then there is R2a1a1a1a1 which is R-L295 branch which was former R2a branch which has further R-l294 branch. There is also R-Y26630 further in one of the parallel branchs. Some previous studies have categorized the R-L266 as P.

Now there are other clades that Aaronbee has been showing which seem to originate in later movements into South Asia but still not understood right. Further there are R2a2, R2b etc... which are all clearly distinct from the R-L295 branches.


Distribution wise there is probably 50/50 split between R-L295 & downstream to R-L266 & related branches among Andhra groups. But only testing further should isolate more of these sub-branches. However looks like the overall figure for R2 in the South would have been overestimated before as shown in some studies. Small groups have been to shown to have like upto 80% R2 in some of previous studies. But it is probably much less dependent upon the specific caste.

Arunkumar's large sample dataset covering multiple sections of the society in the southernmost state of TN is perhaps a good representation of southern India. This shows at R2 at 8.21% overall.
Of course middle and lower caste populations are much higher in proportion so my guess would be about 10% overall.
Plus much of their P-M45xM242xM207 is also likely R2-M495 so overall may be just over 10%.
https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article/figure/image?download&size=large&id=info:doi/10.1371/annotation/8663819b-5ff0-4133-b70a-2d686dfb0a44.t002.cn

Amber29
08-27-2020, 08:59 PM
So my uncle (dads first cousin whos mothers are sisters) and my 2nd cousin brother (on both sides)(my paternal gradmother's Ydna line) have split off and created a new subclade onf FTDNA

R-FT353768