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rms2
03-01-2021, 04:47 PM
Geneticist Anna Linderholm, in her recent paper, “Corded Ware cultural complexity uncovered using genomic and isotopic analysis from south-eastern Poland” (2020), draws a connection between the eight R1b burials of the Corded Ware culture (CWC) in Małopolska (also known as "Lesser Poland") in SE Poland in her report and the Catacombnaya culture (CC) of the Northwest Pontic (i.e., Black Sea) region. Polish archaeologist and CWC expert Piotr Włodarczak does the same thing in some of his recent papers.

Those burials are rc dated to around 2500 BC (c. 2479-2349 BC), around the end of the period of an apparent migration of CC people into Małopolska. That is too late to matter for the ultimate origin of the CWC, but it is interesting relative to the possible genomics of the CC.

So what really interests me in this connection is that five of the eight CWC individuals tested R1b-L51, and four of those tested R1b-L52 (one step downstream of L51). Of the remaining three, I'm guessing they were probably all at least R1b-L52, too, but Linderholm could only squeeze M269 out of two of them, and L23 out of the other.

All eight were buried in Catacombnaya-style niche/catacomb graves, and all of them were eastern-shifted, with some sort of autosomal resemblance to the Afanasievo remains recently tested from Shatar Chuluu in Mongolia (Wang et al, 2020).

So, given all of that, I'm thinking maybe Catacombnaya down the Prut/Dniester river valleys and along the Black Sea coast might yield up some R1b-L51.

Here's a map from page 10 of Piotr Włodarczak, “The Traits of Early-Bronze Pontic Cultures in the Development of Old Upland Corded Ware (Małopolska Groups) and Złota Culture Communities” (in Baltic-Pontic Studies, vol. 19, 2014). I added the river names to help orient the reader. The map kind of shows what I mean. The red cross hatching shows CC burial sites. The blue cross hatching shows the extent of the Małopolska variant of the CWC. The pink shade is the extent of Yamnaya (YC), and the blue shade represents the CWC.

43620

Things would certainly be easier if those CC burials marched all the way up into Małopolska, but maybe they do, if one counts the CWC burials in niche/catacomb graves.

Thoughts?

Standardized Ape
03-01-2021, 05:49 PM
The Afanasievo guys from Mongolia with J1 and L51(?) were a bit more western than mainline Catacomb(or Afanasievo) in terms of EEF.

Target: MNG_Afanasievo_1:I6221
Distance: 1.8539% / 0.01853857
84.0 RUS_Catacomb
12.6 Corded_Ware_CZE
3.4 KAZ_Botai

Target: MNG_Afanasievo_1_contam:I6222
Distance: 3.2298% / 0.03229757
88.0 RUS_Catacomb
9.4 Corded_Ware_CZE
2.6 MNG_North_N

The Malopolska guys are a little steppe-shifted but they also lived on the edge of the steppe. They are much more like normal CWC though.

Target: Corded_Ware_POL:pcw040
Distance: 2.6858% / 0.02685850
70.2 Corded_Ware_CZE
28.6 RUS_Catacomb
1.2 RUS_Samara_HG

rms2
03-01-2021, 05:59 PM
The following is from page 5 of the Linderholm et al Supplementary Information:



The burials of CWC individuals in niche graves (16) do not correspond to the (hypothetical) oldest wave of the CWC phase with the assumed migration of pastoral communities from Eastern Europe (generally labelled the "A-horizon" or "Pan-European"). However, they are related to the second, separate phase (or "wave") of eastern influences, taking place around 2600-2500 BCE along the border zone between the forest and forest-steppe, and areas of Volhynia and Podolia towards Małopolska. The absolute dating of the burials analysed here correspond to the age of graves from other regions (including Central Germany or Polish lowland), from which burials have already been archaeogenomically studied. In this context, a certain genetic distinction of the Małopolska population from CWC individuals from other regions may be important. It is expressed by the repeatability of the Y-chromosomal R1b group in Małopolska materials, which has not been found in other regions of Central Europe but is present in the environment of Yamnaya and Catacombnaya steppe societies. The carried out comparative analyses indicated the closeness of the genetic pool of the Małopolska CWC and the Afanasievo culture. This challenging correlation, however correlates with archaeological conceptions assuming the eastern genesis of Catacombnaya culture, its significant influence on the formation of Middle Dnieper culture and then the expansion towards the west. Its consequence could be a modification of the gene pool, changed initially by the first migrations of the steppe communities towards the west.

This one is from page 21 of the Supplementary Information:



In the perspective of archaeogenetic analyses, the chronological relation of CWC niche graves to the kurgan cultural complexes from the northern Pontic zone, and above all to the Catacomb culture, is important. The absolute dating presented above unambiguously indicates that the graveyards of the younger phase of the CWC are younger than the graves of the Yamnaya culture. However, they correspond to the graves of the older phase of the Catacomb culture in the north-west area of the Black Sea region. Significant seems to be also the chronological relation of examined materials to the cemeteries of Afanasievo culture from western Siberia.

I'll probably post some quotes from Włodarczak, too, but those two from Linderholm are enough for one post.

rms2
03-01-2021, 06:18 PM
. . .

The Malopolska guys are a little steppe-shifted but they also lived on the edge of the steppe. They are much more like normal CWC though.

Target: Corded_Ware_POL:pcw040
Distance: 2.6858% / 0.02685850
70.2 Corded_Ware_CZE
28.6 RUS_Catacomb
1.2 RUS_Samara_HG

In ballpark terms, all pcw040 would require to get a RUS_Catacomb result like that would be one grandparent who was a Catacombnaya immigrant. He was R1b-L52, and his remains were recovered from one of the niche/catacomb graves in Święte in Małopolska.

That grandparent might have been his paternal grandfather, so we might reasonably expect to find some R1b-L51 in Catacombnaya. It's guesswork, but it's not unjustified.

If his other grandparents were CWC folks, that would explain the overall autosomal profile he had.

Here's another thing, and someone can correct me if I am wrong. I believe the only Catacombnaya samples we have came not from the NW Black Sea coast but from over in the North Caucasus piedmont, so there are probably some differences between them and NW Pontic Catacombnaya. Pcw040 might bear even a stronger resemblance to Pontic Catacombnaya (but 28.6 is pretty substantial).

rms2
03-01-2021, 07:36 PM
This is from page 9 of Piotr Włodarczak, “The Traits of Early-Bronze Pontic Cultures in the Development of Old Upland Corded Ware (Małopolska Groups) and Złota Culture Communities” (in Baltic-Pontic Studies, vol. 19, 2014):



In the discussion below, all CWC materials from south-eastern Poland were considered together – as a group of finds standing out from adjacent regions and comparable to the model shared by the YC and CC.3

From pages 22-23 of the same paper:



The form of catacomb grave, typical of the younger CWC phases in Małopolska, bears much semblance to features from the North Pontic Area. This is particularly true for the general shape (a clear predominance of oval chambers), position of the entrance pit with respect to the niche (T-shaped layouts clearly dominate) and manner of use (most features hold single burials; only rarely are secondary intrusions into the grave chambers recorded). Similar structures are also characteristic of the CC [Kaiser 2003: 43-45; Ślusarska 2006: 68-71]. What else attracts attention is the analogous diversification of catacomb graves in Małopolska and the North Pontic Area, including, for instance, rectangular or oval entrance pits, presence or absence of an entrance corridor and various means of blocking the entrance to the catacomb.

Alain
03-01-2021, 08:32 PM
The regional groups of the developed catacomb culture

43624

And here the chronological sequence of cultures in the northwestern Pontic-Caspian area

43625

The Catacomb culture and its regional groups show partly different developments only the early phase can be seen as the "overall horizon". In any case, we can determine the boundaries of the catacomb culture in the east and north at least east of the Dnepr regional expressions up to the Caucasus can be detected as well as their presence especially in the developed phase in the Ingul culture but also in the west up to the Prut. Like the Yamnaya culture, the catacomb culture is a large-scale phenomenon with regional characteristics that partly go back to long transition phases. For example, the late Yamnaya and early Catacomb cultures in the area of ​​different grave constructions and burial rites, which also ran parallel to one another

davit
03-01-2021, 08:40 PM
Most Catacomb has turned up R1b-Z2103 and I2 so far right?

rms2
03-01-2021, 08:56 PM
Most Catacomb has turned up R1b-Z2103 and I2 so far right?

I've only seen one Catacombnaya Y-DNA result. As I recall, it was from the North Caucasus piedmont, and it was I2a (Allentoft, 2015).

There is no indication the R1b CWC guys from Linderholm came from that area or that their ancestors did. Their supposed Catacombnaya connection is down the Prut/Dniester valleys to the northwest coast of the Black Sea.

See the quotes from Włodarczak and Linderholm in the prior posts above.

Coldmountains
03-01-2021, 09:17 PM
Most Catacomb has turned up R1b-Z2103 and I2 so far right?

Yeah i also don't see much of a reason to believe western Catacomb is ancestral to Bell Beakers or some CWC groups. Western Catacomb rather seems to be ancestral to Babino (mainly R1b-Z2103 Proto-Greeks? + adstrate CWC R1a-M417/Z93) and Balkan IEs. I also don't think Bell Beaker-derived languages like Italo-Celtic are seen by linguists as closer to likely Catacomb-derived languages like Greek than to Balto-Slavic or even Indo-Iranian what again points to an origin of Bell Beakers in the core CWC zone and not outside of it in Yamnaya or Catacomb.

davit
03-01-2021, 09:20 PM
Yeah i dont see much of a reason to believe western Catacomb is ancestral to Bell Beakers or some CWC groups. Western Catacomb rather seems to be ancestral to Babino (mainly R1b-Z2103 Proto-Greeks? + adstrate CWC R1a-M417/Z93) and Balkan IEs. I also don't think Bell Beaker-derived languages like Italo-Celtic are seen closer to likely Catacomb-derived languages like Greek than to Balto-Slavic or even Indo-Iranian what again points to a an origin of Bell Beakers in the core CWC zone and not outside of it in Yamnaya or Catacomb.

Wikipedia says three Catacomb guys have turned up R1b-M269. I was going to post exactly what you did. I would also expect it to be R1b-Z2103 + I2 and maybe a small amount of R1a-Z93 especially in the later phases when it was on the path to being replaced by Timber Grave in some areas.

rms2
03-01-2021, 09:21 PM
As an aside, I remember some years ago, before 2015, when almost everybody and his ugly brother expected Yamnaya Y-DNA, if we ever got any, to be R1a of some kind. Back then, R1a was regarded as the preeminent Indo-European Y-DNA haplogroup.

It came as quite a shock when the first Yamnaya results turned out to be R1b-Z2103.

Next, after the initial spate of R1a results in Corded Ware, the received wisdom was that Corded Ware would be all R1a.

Nope, it isn't.

Now we have something similar with regard to steppe pastoralist cultures. They are all assumed to have been R1b-Z2103, and R1b-L51 just dropped out of the sky to land in Corded Ware and Beaker, equipped with Yamnaya autosomal DNA.

How long do you all expect the drought of L51 in steppe pastoralist cultures to last?

rms2
03-01-2021, 09:27 PM
Yeah i also don't see much of a reason to believe western Catacomb is ancestral to Bell Beakers or some CWC groups. Western Catacomb rather seems to be ancestral to Babino (mainly R1b-Z2103 Proto-Greeks? + adstrate CWC R1a-M417/Z93) and Balkan IEs. I also don't think Bell Beaker-derived languages like Italo-Celtic are seen by linguists as closer to likely Catacomb-derived languages like Greek than to Balto-Slavic or even Indo-Iranian what again points to an origin of Bell Beakers in the core CWC zone and not outside of it in Yamnaya or Catacomb.

Except no one is claiming Catacombnaya is ancestral to Bell Beaker. Instead, the idea of this thread, based on what Linderholm and Włodarczak have written, is that those eight R1b CWC in Małopolska in Linderholm et al were probably the Y-DNA descendants of Catacombnaya immigrants from the NW Black Sea coast via the Prut/Dniester valleys.

That does not mean all or even any of the subsequent central and western European R1b-L51 was or is descended from Catacombnaya. We're talking about eight ancient catacomb burials in Małopolska dated to the end of a period of migration into Małopolska from Catacombnaya.

You cannot substitute one culture for a prior one and assume NW Pontic Catacombnaya was exactly like Babino five hundred to a thousand years later.

davit
03-01-2021, 09:31 PM
As an aside, I remember some years ago, before 2015, when almost everybody and his ugly brother expected Yamnaya Y-DNA, if we ever got any, to be R1a of some kind. Back then, R1a was regarded as the preeminent Indo-European Y-DNA haplogroup.

It came as quite a shock when the first Yamnaya results turned out to be R1b-Z2103.

Next, after the initial spate of R1a results in Corded Ware, the received wisdom was that Corded Ware would be all R1a.

Nope, it isn't.

Now we have something similar with regard to steppe pastoralist cultures. They are all assumed to have been R1b-Z2103, and R1b-L51 just dropped out of the sky to land in Corded Ware and Beaker, equipped with Yamnaya autosomal DNA.

How long do you all expect the drought of L51 in steppe pastoralist cultures to last?

Who said it dropped out of thin air? People are just arguing for a pre Yamnaya period migration as the steppe seems to be dominated by R1b-Z2103 during that area and followed by R1a-Z93 right after that.

rms2
03-01-2021, 09:39 PM
Who said it dropped out of thin air? People are just arguing for a pre Yamnaya period migration as the steppe seems to be dominated by R1b-Z2103 during that area and followed by R1a-Z93 right after that.

Maybe you'd like to re-read the original post in this thread to renew your understanding of the actual topic.

It's not about any "pre-Yamnaya period migration". It's about the period just following the migration of CC to Małopolska c. 2600-2500 BC.

The topic of this thread has nothing whatsoever to do with the origin of Corded Ware.

etrusco
03-01-2021, 09:53 PM
As an aside, I remember some years ago, before 2015, when almost everybody and his ugly brother expected Yamnaya Y-DNA, if we ever got any, to be R1a of some kind. Back then, R1a was regarded as the preeminent Indo-European Y-DNA haplogroup.

It came as quite a shock when the first Yamnaya results turned out to be R1b-Z2103.

Next, after the initial spate of R1a results in Corded Ware, the received wisdom was that Corded Ware would be all R1a.

Nope, it isn't.

Now we have something similar with regard to steppe pastoralist cultures. They are all assumed to have been R1b-Z2103, and R1b-L51 just dropped out of the sky to land in Corded Ware and Beaker, equipped with Yamnaya autosomal DNA.

How long do you all expect the drought of L51 in steppe pastoralist cultures to last?

The possible presence of the "western" type of R1b in Afanasievo prior to 3000 BC gives us a bottom line: R1b L51 is not born in the CWC but was intrusive in it from a Yamnaya subgroup. Finding a R1b L51 with corded pottery is miningless because a lot of steppe derived culture and even northern european farmers used it. The northern France R1b ( from Soissons IIRC) was buried in a typical Yamnaya fashion for example.

rms2
03-01-2021, 09:55 PM
Please understand.

The basic idea of this thread is that eight CWC guys buried in NW Pontic-style catacomb graves in Małopolska c. 2500 or just after turned out to be R1b, most of it R1b-L51. That burial style, other archaeological evidence, and their autosomal DNA shows that their ancestors may have been CC people who came from the NW Pontic zone up the Prut/Dniester valleys to Małopolska.

I'm not the one claiming that. Linderholm and Włodarczak beat me to it, and I would not have even thought of such a thing had they not suggested it first.

This is not about the origin of L51 or of CWC or of Yamnaya. We're talking about the period 2600-2500 BC and just after.

I get it that every damned thing on the ancient steppe is R1b-Z2103 even if that cannot really be true.

davit
03-01-2021, 09:55 PM
Maybe you'd like to re-read the original post in this thread to renew your understanding of the actual topic.

It's not about any "pre-Yamnaya period migration". It's about the period just following the migration of CC to Małopolska c. 2600-2500 BC.

The topic of this thread has nothing whatsoever to do with the origin of Corded Ware.

Your statement was :
"Now we have something similar with regard to steppe pastoralist cultures. They are all assumed to have been R1b-Z2103, and R1b-L51 just dropped out of the sky to land in Corded Ware and Beaker, equipped with Yamnaya autosomal DNA."

To which I mentioned how most people think R1b-L51 arrived in Corded Ware and Beaker.

rms2
03-01-2021, 09:59 PM
. . .

To which I mentioned how most people think R1b-L51 arrived in Corded Ware and Beaker.

Ah, thanks for your poll of "most people". Very informative.

Once again, try to stick to the actual topic.

Coldmountains
03-01-2021, 10:07 PM
Except no one is claiming Catacombnaya is ancestral to Bell Beaker. Instead, the idea of this thread, based on what Linderholm and Włodarczak have written, is that those eight R1b CWC in Małopolska in Linderholm et al were probably the Y-DNA descendants of Catacombnaya immigrants from the NW Black Sea coast via the Prut/Dniester valleys.

That does not mean all or even any of the subsequent central and western European R1b-L51 was or is descended from Catacombnaya. We're talking about eight ancient catacomb burials in Małopolska dated to the end of a period of migration into Małopolska from Catacombnaya.

You cannot substitute one culture for a prior one and assume NW Pontic Catacombnaya was exactly like Babino five hundred to a thousand years later.

Is any of the CWC Poland L51 samples clustering with Yamnaya or Catacomb instead of the CWC main cluster? Afaik they all look typical CWC and so far L51 was only found in CWC and not in Yamnaya or Catacomb yet. The only sample from Poland close to Catacomb and Yamnaya so far is the early CWC sample with R1a (shared older Steppe Eneolithic origin)

Also Bell Beaker-derived or/and L51-rich groups like Italo-Celtic or Germanic don't seem to have some special and ancient connection to very likely Yamnaya/Catacomb derived languages like Greek, Armenian and Balkan IE absent in Balto-Slavic or Indo-Iranian (Please correct me if my assumption is incorrect, Centum/Satem divide is outdated and extremely overrated in my eyes).

The strongest argument for a Yamnaya origin of L51 was for some years that CWC lacked R1b and Yamnaya was dominated by R1b but now we have plenty of R1b from CWC and looking at Yfull R1b-Z2103 and R1b-L51 separated 6500 years ago (likely significantly earlier because of the tendency of Yfull to underestimate) what would be probably long before Yamnaya, Catacomb and at the very earliest PIE stage. The old date of the split is not an strong argument against a Yamnaya origin of L51 but it shows that R1b in Yamnaya is also not a strong argument for L51 entering CWC from Yamnaya or Catacomb.

Coldmountains
03-01-2021, 10:18 PM
The possible presence of the "western" type of R1b in Afanasievo prior to 3000 BC gives us a bottom line: R1b L51 is not born in the CWC but was intrusive in it from a Yamnaya subgroup. Finding a R1b L51 with corded pottery is miningless because a lot of steppe derived culture and even northern european farmers used it. The northern France R1b ( from Soissons IIRC) was buried in a typical Yamnaya fashion for example.

The problem in my eyes is that L51 and L52 are likely much older than Afanasievo or Yamnaya and probably formed at the earliest PIE stage around 4000-5000 B.C if not slightly earlier so the presence of basal L51 in Afanasievo is not proving or disproving much in my eyes.

rms2
03-01-2021, 10:18 PM
Is any of the CWC Poland CWC samples clustering with Yamnaya or Catacomb instead of the CWC main cluster? Afaik they all look typical CWC and so far L51 was only found in CWC and not in Yamnaya or Catacomb yet. The only sample from Poland close to Catacomb and Yamnaya so far is the early CWC sample with R1a (shared older Steppe Eneolithic origin)

Did you miss this post (https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?23192-Will-R1b-L51-be-found-in-Catacombnaya-of-the-NW-Pontic-steppe&p=753912&viewfull=1#post753912) and this post (https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?23192-Will-R1b-L51-be-found-in-Catacombnaya-of-the-NW-Pontic-steppe&p=753922&viewfull=1#post753922)?

The eight R1b CWC samples from Linderholm et al are just late enough to have been the mostly CWC descendants of CC, not CC immigrants themselves.

But they were buried in NW Pontic, CC-style graves.

Are you saying that is meaningless? Linderholm and Włodarczak are wrong, in your opinion?



Also Bell Beaker-derived or/and L51-rich groups like Italo-Celtic or Germanic don't seem to have some special and ancient connection to very likely Yamnaya/Catacomb derived languages like Greek, Armenian and Balkan IE absent in Balto-Slavic or Indo-Iranian (Please correct me if my assumption is incorrect, Centum/Satem divide is outdated and extremely overrated in my eyes).

You're repeating what you said before, and I already answered that.

No one, including me, is claiming these eight R1b CWC are the ancestors of Beaker or of Single Grave Corded Ware before that. They are much too late for that.

I thought I made it clear what I am talking about, but I guess I didn't.

I'm talking about only these eight R1b CWC results in Linderholm et al who were buried in NW Pontic, CC-style graves. What I am asking is, are they an indication that we might find R1b-L51 in Catacombnaya southeast of Małopolska, along the Prut/Dniester interfluve or on the NW Black Sea coast?



The strongest argument for a Yamnaya origin of L51 was for some years that CWC lacked R1b and Yamnaya was dominated by R1b but now we have plenty of R1b from CWC and looking at Yfull R1b-Z2103 and R1b-L51 separated 6500 years ago (likely significantly earlier because of the tendency of Yfull to underestimate) what would be probably long before Yamnaya, Catacomb and at the very earliest PIE stage.

But you know, none of that has the slightest thing to do with the topic of this thread. I'll have to refer you back to the original post.

rms2
03-01-2021, 10:24 PM
BTW, as I understand it, and please, enlighten me if I am wrong, we have NO Catacombnaya Y-DNA from the NW Pontic region or the Prut/Dniester valleys. We only have it from the North Caucasus piedmont.

We haven't exactly blanketed the PC steppe with NGS testing.

Coldmountains
03-01-2021, 10:28 PM
Did you miss this post (https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?23192-Will-R1b-L51-be-found-in-Catacombnaya-of-the-NW-Pontic-steppe&p=753912&viewfull=1#post753912) and this post (https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?23192-Will-R1b-L51-be-found-in-Catacombnaya-of-the-NW-Pontic-steppe&p=753922&viewfull=1#post753922)?

The eight R1b CWC samples from Linderholm et al are just late enough to have been the mostly CWC descendants of CC, not CC immigrants themselves.

But they were buried in NW Pontic, CC-style graves.

Are you saying that is meaningless? Linderholm and Włodarczak are wrong, in your opinion?



You're repeating what you said before, and I already answered that.

No one, including me, is claiming these eight R1b CWC are the ancestors of Beaker or of Single Grave Corded Ware before that. They are much too late for that.

I thought I made it clear what I am talking about, but I guess I didn't.

I'm talking about only these eight R1b CWC results in Linderholm et al who were buried in NW Pontic, CC-style graves. What I am asking is, are they an indication that we might find R1b-L51 in Catacombnaya southeast of Małopolska, along the Prut/Dniester interfluve or on the NW Black Sea coast?



But you know, none of that has the slightest thing to do with the topic of this thread. I'll have to refer you back to the original post.

The Poland pcw040 L51 in the linked post has in my eyes a super typical CWC/Steppe MLBA profile closest to many R1a CWC/Steppe MLBA individuals. Actually closer to almost all Sintashta (lacking or very low in direct Yamnaya/Catacomb admix) and CWC samples than to Catacomb or Yamnaya. The same seems to be true for the other L51 samples from CWC Poland. So the higher amount of Steppe_EBA among some of them can rather be explained with internal variation of Steppe_EBA/TRB-like admix among CWC tribes.

Distance to: Corded_Ware_POL:pcw040
0.02559724 Corded_Ware_DEU:I0049
0.02866402 RUS_Srubnaya_Alakul_MLBA:mur004
0.02881867 Corded_Ware_DEU:I0103
0.03001265 RUS_Srubnaya_Alakul_MLBA:mur003
0.03068865 Corded_Ware_CZE:I7209
0.03269492 RUS_Srubnaya_MLBA:I0422
0.03356864 RUS_Srubnaya_Alakul_MLBA:kzb008
0.03386850 TJK_Dashti_Kozy_BA:I4258
0.03408366 RUS_Sintashta_MLBA:I1082
0.03447012 RUS_Sintashta_MLBA:I0939
0.03468670 CHE_LN_steppe:Aesch25
0.03485666 Corded_Ware_CZE:I7279
0.03534113 RUS_Sintashta_MLBA:I1022
0.03553070 KAZ_Taldysay_MLBA1:I4787
0.03630538 Corded_Ware_CZE:I7207
0.03738729 KAZ_Maitan_MLBA_Alakul:I6797
0.03748730 Corded_Ware_DEU:I0104
0.03760452 KAZ_Kyzlbulak_MLBA1:I4323
0.03863480 RUS_Krasnoyarsk_MLBA:I6716
0.03890254 RUS_Srubnaya_MLBA:I0358
0.03894245 KAZ_Aktogai_MLBA:I4774
0.03913532 RUS_Srubnaya_MLBA:I0232
0.03914015 RUS_Srubnaya_Alakul_MLBA:kzb002
0.03917770 RUS_Srubnaya_MLBA:I0424
0.03918518 RUS_Srubnaya_MLBA:I0234

rms2
03-01-2021, 10:40 PM
I think it might actually be fun to discuss whether Corded Ware was the product of a Yamnaya migration or the migration of some other people closely related to Yamnaya, like the people of those older, thus-far-undated Middle Dnieper culture burials.

However, those who have read and digested the original post in this thread know that's not the topic of this thread.

I should have made it a poll, I guess, and asked who thinks the Linderholm et al results indicate we might find L51 in CC down the Prut/Dniester interfluve and on the NW Black Sea coast.

Moderator
03-01-2021, 10:51 PM
Thread closed for the time being. This is a general warning to please follow the ToS and keep things civil and respectable. You all agreed to the ToS when you registered here.