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View Full Version : Rare R1b haplotype Mayo, Ireland? ySearch 947ZG



Croghan
03-16-2014, 10:07 PM
I had been been on the lookout for a DNA sample for "Na Partraighre" DNA sometimes referred as Partridge from near Partry, Co. Mayo, Ireland.

I eventually sponsored the FTDNA kit which is published as ySearch 947ZG.

The kit has 83 matches at 12 markers, 12 matches at 25 markers with no matches at 37 markers.

I wonder if this is a truly unique haplotype and if so what further tests would be indicated.

Bolgeris
03-16-2014, 10:11 PM
I am north italian U152+ L2+ L20+ and i am with no matches at 37 markers..
but others Bolgeri or Belgeri are 11 or 12 diff. / 111 STR.. with me..
I am not unique haplotype only i have different STR mutations.
I think.

Il PapÓ
03-16-2014, 10:14 PM
I'm also U152(L2-,Z36-,Z56-) and I have absolutely no match at any STR markers (12,25,37)

rms2
03-16-2014, 10:18 PM
If I were a betting man, I would bet that one is M222+. He has a number of 37-marker neighbors at 4, 5, and 6 away, and a bunch of them are M222+. He has the telltale markers 390=25, 385=11-13, 392=14, 448=18, 449=30, and 464=15-16-16-17.

That's not a rare haplotype, certainly not for Ireland.

Croghan
03-16-2014, 10:46 PM
I have sponsored several M222+ kits in the past including a WTY but I have never seen an R1b haplotype with so few matches.
FTDNA does predict M222+
I previously targeted a D'Arcy, theoretically from this area and he is M222+
Tom O Connor in his somewhat discredited book "Hands of History" claims that the people from this area of Mayo were Belgic or Fir Belg aka Fir Bolg; I don't agree with much of his interpretation of European Iron Age history and it's supposed repercussions in Ireland.

rms2
03-16-2014, 10:48 PM
I'm not sure what FTDNA's criteria are for predicting M222, but that haplotype sure looks like M222+ to me. Of course, 67 or 111 markers would be better. I would test him for M222. Let me know if you do and how it comes out, if you wouldn't mind. For now, I am predicting he is M222+.

alan
03-16-2014, 11:51 PM
Its fair to say that people who talk with confidence about Belgic tribes in Ireland except perhaps as a very small element are not academic historians, linguists or archaeologists, certainly not in the normal sense.

Other than the name Fir Bolg (of uncertain origin), the only suggestion of Belgae in Ireland of any sort IMO is the Menapii tribe on the SE coast of Ireland which has a near-duplicate name to a tribe on the Rhine mouth. However, this is poor evidence really. Duplication of names among completely unrelated and far separated Celtic tribes is fairly common e.g. Brigantes in northern England and in the Alps and can be down to some shared descriptive term or to sharing a preference is choice of god.

I think the real links of the Menapii in Ireland are probably with similar named places like Isle of Man and probably somehow have something to do with the sea god Manannan Mac Lir /Manawydan fab Llyr of Irish and Welsh mythology. I suspect maritime tribes who traded along the seas may have just shared this god and it explains the similar names of Menapi and Manapi. The Isle of Man was called by various forms including Monapia and I am pretty sure Menavia was another form. The Welsh name Mannaw is similar to the latter. The Irish legends associate Manannan with the Isle of Man.

That only leaves Fir Bolg of Irish legends as any sort of hint of Belgae in Ireland. I suspect, given the total lack of Belgic archaeological remains in Ireland, that if the Belgae came to Ireland, it was only after they had become partly Romanised. I think the silence of the Irish professional archaeological community on Tom O'Connor's speculation on Belgae in Ireland and his comments on archaeological remains at Turoe is deafening and a polite way of not finding it convincing.


I have sponsored several M222+ kits in the past including a WTY but I have never seen an R1b haplotype with so few matches.
FTDNA does predict M222+
I previously targeted a D'Arcy, theoretically from this area and he is M222+
Tom O Connor in his somewhat discredited book "Hands of History" claims that the people from this area of Mayo were Belgic or Fir Belg aka Fir Bolg; I don't agree with much of his interpretation of European Iron Age history and it's supposed repercussions in Ireland.

Croghan
03-18-2014, 02:19 PM
I have ordered M222.
This was a re-issued kit and it had a default setting which linked it to the Fraser DNA Project and the match results were only from this group.
On resetting the filter to search the entire FTDNA database normal matching volume resumed.
I suppose I thought I might have found a pre M222 candidate but probably not. Let's see how the M222 SNP test goes!

PaulBurns
03-19-2014, 07:42 PM
The Chromo2 test offered by BritainsDNA identifies about 20 new SNPs below M222, and a number above it. I languished at M222 for years, and am now about six levels below it (S7814). My paternal line is from west Sligo.