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Erik
03-10-2021, 10:29 AM
Is there such a thing as an Alevi ethnicity? Can an Alevi be distinguished from another Turk based upon admixture proportions alone? (Relative matching doesn't count!)

AureliusDNA
03-10-2021, 01:12 PM
There is no scientific study performed to address this issue as far a I know. Based on the results in Turkish Ancestry groups, Alevis and Sunnis from the same region have pretty much the same Admixture proportions.

Magnetic
03-10-2021, 03:37 PM
there are not only alevi turks but also alevi kurds . i am of alevi kurdish descent for example

Alkaevli
03-11-2021, 02:10 PM
Alevism is a sect, not an ethnic group. There are Turkish, Kurdish and Zaza Alevis in Turkey and they fall within the genetic clusters of their respective ethnicities. There are noteworthy differences between Turkish Alevism and Kurdish/Zaza Alevism, so the difference is not only limited to genetics.

Arab Alawites (aka Nusayris) are even more different. Their belief is classified under another branch and they are genetically most similar to Lebanese people.

MLSK
06-10-2021, 08:27 PM
Alevism is a sect, not an ethnic group. There are Turkish, Kurdish and Zaza Alevis in Turkey and they fall within the genetic clusters of their respective ethnicities. There are noteworthy differences between Turkish Alevism and Kurdish/Zaza Alevism, so the difference is not only limited to genetics.


Where do the Turkish Alevis live or come from?

Every auDNA result I've sen of Alevis from Dersim/Tunceli, Erzincan, Sivas, Erzurum, Kayseri, Adana, Mersin, Hatay(not Arab), Urfa, Malatya & Kahramanmaraş have basically been ordinary Kurdish results.
The mother tongue in all groups seem to have been Kurmanji or Zaza prior to 1930s.
It seems the "Turkish" or "Azerbaijani" Alevis of Erzincan, Erzurum, Sivas & Tunceli are just Kurmanji/Zaza speakers.

I guess that leaves the «orum and Tokat Alevis? I've come across Alevis from these areas that identified as Kurdish. I believe these had roots in the south east.
But I think I've seen an Alevi result from these areas that was vastly different from the Kurdish results.

Kulin
06-10-2021, 09:16 PM
...


Please refrain from political overtones and adhere to the ToS.

MLSK
06-10-2021, 09:51 PM
Apologies, however I think those observations I've made are very relevant to the subject.
I'm not Turkish, Alevi, Kurmanji or Zaza speaker. It's not about making political points. I think Alevi identity has become very political and that politics is playing a crucial role in so many Alevi results being identical with Sunni Kurmanji/Zaza results.
I get the impression that the ethnic Turkish Alevis don't identify as strongly with Alevism - they've blended and disappeared among the secularist Turkish Kemalist mass or became Shia Twelvers/Azerbaijanis.
But like I said, I'm not from Turkey, I don't have full insight into this subject. I would like ethnic Turkish Alevis to confirm or refute what I said.

Kulin
06-10-2021, 10:14 PM
Apologies, however I think those observations I've made are very relevant to the subject.
I'm not Turkish, Alevi, Kurmanji or Zaza speaker. It's not about making political points. I think Alevi identity has become very political and that politics is playing a crucial role in so many Alevi results being identical with Sunni Kurmanji/Zaza results.
I get the impression that the ethnic Turkish Alevis don't identify as strongly with Alevism - they've blended and disappeared among the secularist Turkish Kemalist mass or became Shia Twelvers/Azerbaijanis.
But like I said, I'm not from Turkey, I don't have full insight into this subject. I would like ethnic Turkish Alevis to confirm or refute what I said.

From a neutral point of view as well, Alevism seems to be deeply entrenched in Turkish culture (from theological/religious terms to folk tales to festivals to music etc) to be culturally foreign. If I remember correctly, I have seen some Alevi Anatolian Turkish as well as Alevi Balkan Turkish results, and they do score like what one expects them to be. I won't surprised if some communities of Alevi Kurds/Zazas have switched to Turkish identity recently (or vice versa), but it is unlikely for vast majority of Turkish speaking Alevis to be non-Turkish genetically.

Kapisa
06-11-2021, 12:31 AM
It's common among religious sects often minorities to practice endogamy that is sect specific. However, from the discussion above it seems that population gene pool is primarily based on ethnic and linguistic identity rather than religious or sectarian. Its similar to the case in Pakistan where ethic identity e.g. Iranic (Pashtun, Baloch) is a far better predictor of genetic profile than religion.
Cross ethnic exogamy does occur on sectarian basis: Shia Baloch marrying into Punjabi families, but it's rare to effect population.
Not sure how true it is in Turkey? Do Alevis practice sect specific endogamy or marriages outside the sect are common?

Mrtni
06-11-2021, 03:34 AM
No, they are indistinguishable from each other. An Alevi from the Aegean resembles other Aegean Turks and someone from Dersim is similar to the people of his area. There are so many people in Turkey who "practice" this part of Islam so the Chance to practice endogamy goes to zero.

The Nusayris are a different story. I have a very close Nusayri friend from Turkey and they predominantly marry each other. They mostly speak in Arabic with each other and are staying in their circle. A Very interesting group in Turkey.

Alkaevli
06-11-2021, 06:12 PM
Where do the Turkish Alevis live or come from?
They can be found all over the peninsula, including the westernmost provinces.


Every auDNA result I've sen of Alevis from Dersim/Tunceli, Erzincan, Sivas, Erzurum, Kayseri, Adana, Mersin, Hatay(not Arab), Urfa, Malatya & Kahramanmaraş have basically been ordinary Kurdish results.
You are talking about Alevism as if it is an ethnic group. Those you've seen are Alevi Kurds/Zazas. Alevi Turks are genetically, linguistically and culturally distinct from Kurds/Zazas. There are Alevi Kurds/Zazas in those aforementioned provinces, some of them migrated centuries ago (like those in Sivas and Kayseri), those in other provinces (like those in Adana) are relatively recent migrants.



The mother tongue in all groups seem to have been Kurmanji or Zaza prior to 1930s.
No, you made this up. Kurdish/Zaza Alevis speak Turkish with Kurdish/Zaza accent, which indicates that Turkish is not their mother tongue. Alevi Turks in western and central Turkey (including Sivas, Tokat and Amasya) on the other hand speak western dialects of Turkish like their Sunni counterparts. Their traditional clothes, folk songs, dances are distinct from those of Alevi Kurds.



It seems the "Turkish" or "Azerbaijani" Alevis of Erzincan, Erzurum, Sivas & Tunceli are just Kurmanji/Zaza speakers.
You made this up too. There is no such thing as "Alevi Azerbaijani" in those aforementioned provinces. Alevi Turks of Sivas speak no language other than Turkish. Get your facts straight.

There are both Alevi Turks and Alevi Kurds/Zazas in Sivas. Alevi Kurds/Zaza are concentrated in eastern districts (such as İmranlı), Alevi Turks on the other hand are scattered all over the province. Alevi Turks of Sivas are genetically distinct from Kurds and Zazas and indistinguishable from Sunni Turks.

Sunni Turks, Alevi Turks and Alevi Kurds from Sivas:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1EQip-6v15F9diUeQ_-wemTN_87VaMP6Tt9s46M99wX0/edit?usp=sharing

I have yet to see an Alevi Turkish result from the Erzurum/Erzincan area, so I have no idea about their genetic profiles.



I guess that leaves the «orum and Tokat Alevis?
You seem to be ill-informed about Turkish Alevi communities of Turkey. Why is your post full of bold statements? We have Turkish Alevi samples from all over the country, save the Erzurum area. There are Alevi Turks even in westernmost provinces and the Balkans.

Alevi Turk from Afyonkarahisar
https://abload.de/img/12bknp.png

Alevi Turk from Aydın
https://abload.de/img/2j2kdm.png

Alevi Turk from KŁtahya
https://abload.de/img/3nrkq4.png

Alevi Turk («epni) from Balıkesir. «epnis of western Turkey appear closer to Turks from central Turkey
https://abload.de/img/adsz2rjyh.png

Alevi Turk from Bulgaria
https://abload.de/img/adsz4bkle.png

Alkaevli
06-11-2021, 06:12 PM
Apologies, however I think those observations I've made are very relevant to the subject. I'm not Turkish, Alevi, Kurmanji or Zaza speaker. It's not about making political points.
What's up with the recent influx of politics-related posts directed at Turks? Do you think we are uncapable of sensing your intentions? Or do you think we are uncapable of replying in the same manner and posting similar contents?



I think Alevi identity has become very political and that politics is playing a crucial role in so many Alevi results being identical with Sunni Kurmanji/Zaza results.
Let me repeat it, Alevism is a sect, not an ethnic group. Alevi Turks are genetically distinct from Kurds/Zazas and identicai to their Sunni Turkish counterparts. I'm not sure about the Erzurum area, because I've not seen any Alevi Turkish sample from there. But we have samples from the rest of the Alevi Turkish communities.



I get the impression that the ethnic Turkish Alevis don't identify as strongly with Alevism - they've blended and disappeared among the secularist Turkish Kemalist mass
Another nonsense. Just because they aren't politically radicalized like certain groups doesn't mean they don't identify with Alevism anymore.



or became Shia Twelvers/Azerbaijanis.
This sentence alone says a lot about how informed you are about the subject. No, they didn't become Azerbaijanis.



But like I said, I'm not from Turkey, I don't have full insight into this subject.
I can tell that.

AureliusDNA
06-11-2021, 07:05 PM
I'm an Alevi Turk from Erzincan (my paternal ancestral town) / Kahramanmaras (paternal side migrated to Maras during Russian occupation in WWI) and Tunceli (maternal side). Unlike our Sunni brethren, nearly every Alevi knows his clan due to our living conditions till the proclamation of the Republic. So most Alevis know very well their ethnic affiliations even without genetic testing. The clans of Anatolia are historically documented pretty accurate by the Ottoman authorities in the Tahrir defterleri. So there is no need for wild speculations on who is what. It is also pretty naive to think that Turks living in Eastern Turkey didn't mix up with their Kurdish or Armenian neighbors. Look at the results from Turks from Erzincan to Erzurum - we are closer to Azeris and Kurds then to some Anatolian Turks and this is OK.

When it comes to the issue of assimilation, it happened both ways: Kurds to Turks and Turks to Kurds. I have even seen Kurds with y-DNA Haplogroup N, so this is not unusual at all. After the Battle of Chaldiran, the Kurdish Beys where set in charge in eastern Anatolia and many Turks, Alevi and Sunni alike assimilated in the Kurdish culture. Even some of my fellow clansmen (should not use this word) see themselves as Kurds and some others as Turks.

Seen from a DNA-perspective, Alevis resemble their Kurdish and Turkish neighbors because that's what most people do - everywhere. Seen from an cultural point of view, Alevisim is pretty turkic in many of his elements. Seen from an historical point of view, many Kurdish Alevi clans today were not documented in historical documents as Kurds. There could be various reasons for it and I'm not saying that they are all assimilated Turks or some wild guess. Every one is free to identify himself as he wishes to. I live in Germany and I wouldn't be surprised if my Kids identify themselves one day as Almans :biggrin1: