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View Full Version : 2,000-year-old biblical texts found in Israel, 1st since Dead Sea Scrolls



grumpydaddybear
03-16-2021, 08:15 PM
https://www.jpost.com/archaeology/israel-finds-2000-yr-old-biblical-manuscripts-662148

Also, the remains of a child:

""On moving two flat stones, we discovered a shallow pit intentionally dug beneath them, containing a skeleton of a child placed in a fetal position,” IAA prehistorian Ronit Lupu explained.

“It was obvious that whoever buried the child had wrapped him up and pushed the edges of the cloth beneath him, just as a parent covers his child in a blanket," she said. "A small bundle of cloth was clutched in the child's hands. The child's skeleton and the cloth wrapping were remarkably well preserved, and because of the climatic conditions in the cave, a process of natural mummification had taken place; the skin, tendons, and even the hair were partially preserved, despite the passage of time.""

Not clear from which period or if the DNA was available.

Michalis Moriopoulos
03-17-2021, 04:12 PM
Says the kid is 6000 years old (4000 BCE), so I guess he/she will be most similar to Levant Chl.

Dewsloth
03-17-2021, 05:12 PM
Maybe Ghassulian?


Origins
The main culture of the Chalcolithic era in Israel is the Ghassulian culture, named after the name of its type-site, Teleilat el-Ghassul, located in the eastern part of the Jordan Rift Valley, opposite Jericho. Afterwards, many additional settlements, located in other archaeological sites, were identified as Ghassulian settlements. All these settlements had been built in areas that had not been previously inhabited, mainly on the outskirts of populated areas. Thus, Chalcolithic settlements have been discovered in the Jordan Rift Valley, in the Israeli coastal plain and on its fringes, in the Judaean Desert and in the northern and western Negev. On the other hand, it seems that people of the Chalcolithic period did not settle in the mountainous regions of Israel or in northern Israel. Several facts allow us to assume that the carriers of this culture were immigrants who had brought their own culture with them: all excavated sites represent an advanced stage of this culture, whereas no evidence of its nascent stages has been discovered, so far, anywhere in the region. This culture's characteristics indicate they had connections with neighboring regions and that their culture had not evolved in the southern Levant. Their origins are not known.[6][8]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghassulian

grumpydaddybear
03-17-2021, 08:01 PM
Says the kid is 6000 years old (4000 BCE), so I guess he/she will be most similar to Levant Chl.

:) I have a problem with reading comprehension...

grumpydaddybear
03-17-2021, 08:21 PM
Maybe Ghassulian?


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghassulian


That would be interesting. I'm a Y-DNA T so I have a special place in my heart for Ghassulian culture. Let's hope they get the DNA and its a boy...

Agamemnon
03-19-2021, 11:03 PM
Speaking of the scrolls themselves, while the article does mention that the scrolls are in Greek and that the divine name is written in Paleo-Hebrew, it does not dwell on this, which is a shame really because these finds are in a league of their own.

The manuscripts from Nahal Hever consist of numerous fragments which are Greek translations of the Shnem Asar (or 12 Minor Prophets). Here's one of the fragments from that cave (8Hev):


https://i.imgur.com/RxWZsgw.png

What you're seeing here is part of the book of Zechariah, chapter nine starts on the right column, third line:


ΛΗΜΜΑ λόγου יהוה ἐ[ν γῇ Σεδρὰχ] καὶ Δαμασκοῦ [...]

I have highlighted the divine name in Paleo-Hebrew where one would expect the Greek "kyrios". The other fragments from that cave are no different:


https://i.imgur.com/1yM9Xjv.png
https://i.imgur.com/VfhwyxB.png

The practice of writing down the divine name in Paleo-Hebrew is a recurring feature of the Qumran manuscripts, one so pervasive that it is also found in some of the Hebrew scrolls, take the Great Psalms Scroll for instance (11Q5):


https://i.imgur.com/BhTBDe6.png

The Jewish scribal practice here is extremely conservative, so conservative in fact that we even have a scroll that is entirely written in the old Paleo-Hebrew script, the famous Paleo-Hebrew Leviticus scroll (11QPaleoLev), I have recently transliterated and transcribed part of it (Leviticus 24:10-14) in the square Hebrew script:


https://i.imgur.com/hVFvP1i.jpg

While the text differs in some ways from the Masoretic text, it is extremely close to the Proto-Masoretic text. Likewise, the Greek text differs in a number of ways from the Septuagint.

grumpydaddybear
03-20-2021, 12:59 AM
Speaking of the scrolls themselves, while the article does mention that the scrolls are in Greek and that the divine name is written in Paleo-Hebrew, it does not dwell on this, which is a shame really because these finds are in a league of their own.

The manuscripts from Nahal Hever consist of numerous fragments which are Greek translations of the Shnem Asar (or 12 Minor Prophets). Here's one of the fragments from that cave (8Hev):



While the text differs in some ways from the Masoretic text, it is extremely close to the Proto-Masoretic text. Likewise, the Greek text differs in a number of ways from the Septuagint.

Thanks for posting this -- I did not realize how clear the writing was.

Erikl86
03-20-2021, 05:02 PM
While the text differs in some ways from the Masoretic text, it is extremely close to the Proto-Masoretic text. Likewise, the Greek text differs in a number of ways from the Septuagint.

As I mentioned in a discussion I had about this find elsewhere, we could be looking at a whole new Greek translation of the Tanakh (Hebrew Bible), independent of the Septuagint, and perhaps a Judean version used by Hellenistic Judean Jews.

Alexander87
03-20-2021, 05:23 PM
Speaking of the scrolls themselves, while the article does mention that the scrolls are in Greek and that the divine name is written in Paleo-Hebrew, it does not dwell on this, which is a shame really because these finds are in a league of their own.

The manuscripts from Nahal Hever consist of numerous fragments which are Greek translations of the Shnem Asar (or 12 Minor Prophets). Here's one of the fragments from that cave (8Hev):


https://i.imgur.com/RxWZsgw.png

What you're seeing here is part of the book of Zechariah, chapter nine starts on the right column, third line:


ΛΗΜΜΑ λόγου יהוה ἐ[ν γῇ Σεδρὰχ] καὶ Δαμασκοῦ [...]

I have highlighted the divine name in Paleo-Hebrew where one would expect the Greek "kyrios". The other fragments from that cave are no different:


https://i.imgur.com/1yM9Xjv.png
https://i.imgur.com/VfhwyxB.png

The practice of writing down the divine name in Paleo-Hebrew is a recurring feature of the Qumran manuscripts, one so pervasive that it is also found in some of the Hebrew scrolls, take the Great Psalms Scroll for instance (11Q5):


https://i.imgur.com/BhTBDe6.png

The Jewish scribal practice here is extremely conservative, so conservative in fact that we even have a scroll that is entirely written in the old Paleo-Hebrew script, the famous Paleo-Hebrew Leviticus scroll (11QPaleoLev), I have recently transliterated and transcribed part of it (Leviticus 24:10-14) in the square Hebrew script:


https://i.imgur.com/hVFvP1i.jpg

While the text differs in some ways from the Masoretic text, it is extremely close to the Proto-Masoretic text. Likewise, the Greek text differs in a number of ways from the Septuagint.

Know of anywhere where I can find those differences discussed in more detail?

NixYO
03-24-2021, 10:29 PM
Speaking of the scrolls themselves, while the article does mention that the scrolls are in Greek and that the divine name is written in Paleo-Hebrew, it does not dwell on this, which is a shame really because these finds are in a league of their own.

The manuscripts from Nahal Hever consist of numerous fragments which are Greek translations of the Shnem Asar (or 12 Minor Prophets). Here's one of the fragments from that cave (8Hev):


https://i.imgur.com/RxWZsgw.png

What you're seeing here is part of the book of Zechariah, chapter nine starts on the right column, third line:


ΛΗΜΜΑ λόγου יהוה ἐ[ν γῇ Σεδρὰχ] καὶ Δαμασκοῦ [...]

I have highlighted the divine name in Paleo-Hebrew where one would expect the Greek "kyrios". The other fragments from that cave are no different:


https://i.imgur.com/1yM9Xjv.png
https://i.imgur.com/VfhwyxB.png

The practice of writing down the divine name in Paleo-Hebrew is a recurring feature of the Qumran manuscripts, one so pervasive that it is also found in some of the Hebrew scrolls, take the Great Psalms Scroll for instance (11Q5):


https://i.imgur.com/BhTBDe6.png

The Jewish scribal practice here is extremely conservative, so conservative in fact that we even have a scroll that is entirely written in the old Paleo-Hebrew script, the famous Paleo-Hebrew Leviticus scroll (11QPaleoLev), I have recently transliterated and transcribed part of it (Leviticus 24:10-14) in the square Hebrew script:


https://i.imgur.com/hVFvP1i.jpg

While the text differs in some ways from the Masoretic text, it is extremely close to the Proto-Masoretic text. Likewise, the Greek text differs in a number of ways from the Septuagint.
These academic editions of the Bible do from what I've read (since I understand neither Hebrew nor Greek and haven't looked in these editions) include several different readings which originate from several scriptures found at several excavation sites and libraries; so what you're writing is that these newly found scriptures don't even resemble any of these alternative readings?

brauthaz
03-24-2021, 11:08 PM
Is it known if the woven-basket found nearby is of the same archaeological layer?

grumpydaddybear
03-25-2021, 02:24 PM
Is it known if the woven-basket found nearby is of the same archaeological layer?

https://www.jpost.com/archaeology/oldest-woven-basket-in-the-world-found-in-israel-dates-back-10000-years-662183

"A perfectly preserved large woven basket dating back some 10,500 years was unearthed in the Judean Desert, the Antiquities Authority announced Tuesday."

Agamemnon
03-25-2021, 07:44 PM
Know of anywhere where I can find those differences discussed in more detail?

The main reference work, if you do not understand Hebrew, is the Oxford Encyclopedia of the Dead Sea Scrolls. This isn't exactly "user friendly", very dry academic literature to say the least, so I'd advise Geza Vermes' "Complete Dead Sea Scrolls". You might want to read the following article (https://www.thetorah.com/article/scribal-marks) by Emanuel Tov dealing with scribal marks in the Masoretic text, he mentions the Qumran manuscripts in there, you might want to check his other articles on the Masoretic text as well. Here (https://www.thetorah.com/article/the-many-recensions-of-the-ten-commandments)'s another article dealing with some of the different versions of the ten commandments.



These academic editions of the Bible do from what I've read (since I understand neither Hebrew nor Greek and haven't looked in these editions) include several different readings which originate from several scriptures found at several excavation sites and libraries; so what you're writing is that these newly found scriptures don't even resemble any of these alternative readings?

Not only do some of the versions here differ in wording, the Greek ones here could easily be original translations. As Erik noted above, the Greek translation might be independent from the Septuagint. My educated guess is that these translations were sold to the diaspora (much of which spoke only Greek), hence the need to stock them in remote caves. OTOH the Great Psalms Scroll above though includes Psalm 151, which is found in the Septuagint but not in the Masoretic Text, the order is also different.

And then some things are always lost in translation, even in an academic edition. My favourite example is Exodus 1:19, most versions will have something along the lines of "Because the Hebrew women are not as the Egyptian ones, for they are lively [...]", but the Hebrew כִּי חָיוֹת הֵנָּה kī ḥayōt hennah has a double-meaning since ḥayōt can be the feminine plural form of the adjective "lively" (or the active participle of "to live") just as it could be the plural of the word ḥayah "animal". So one could also translate this portion as "for they are [like] animals", which fits the context even better, there's a double-meaning here. Even André Chouraqui's extremely literal translation of the Masoretic text into French has "elles sont vives" here. There are many examples of the sort.