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View Full Version : Why are Lebanese Muslims genetically more European than Lebanese Christians?



rainn
03-18-2021, 10:14 PM
Why are Lebanese Muslims genetically more European than Lebanese Christians?

Alexander87
03-18-2021, 10:26 PM
Could you provide some samples that display your point?

Cynic
04-28-2021, 05:20 PM
From what I can tell, there seems to be more steppe input in Levantine Muslims compared to Levantine non-Muslims including Christians. That extra steppe could have come from anywhere but I think it could be a possible reason for the observation that they seem genetically more "European".

Aben Aboo
04-28-2021, 07:23 PM
With average pops.
Muslims
Distance to: Lebanese_Muslim_Sunni
0.16748966 Sardinian
0.18190965 Basque_French
0.18215608 German
0.18531000 Basque_Spanish
0.21427859 Russian_Smolensk



Distance to: Lebanese_Muslim_Shia
0.16478626 Sardinian
0.17839017 German
0.17892901 Basque_French
0.18201754 Basque_Spanish
0.21124147 Russian_Smolensk


Distance to: Lebanese_Muslim
0.15905150 Sardinian
0.17454116 German
0.17472169 Basque_French
0.17785783 Basque_Spanish
0.20720860 Russian_Smolensk

Then Christians:

Distance to: Lebanese_Christian_Maronite
0.15388375 Sardinian
0.17765663 Basque_French
0.17997308 Basque_Spanish
0.18183923 German
0.21699811 Russian_Smolensk


Distance to: Lebanese_Christian_Greek_Orthodox
0.15384082 Sardinian
0.17864688 Basque_French
0.18091847 Basque_Spanish
0.18352810 German
0.21906220 Russian_Smolensk


Distance to: Lebanese_Christian
0.15165832 Sardinian
0.17651290 Basque_French
0.17876605 Basque_Spanish
0.18189168 German
0.21759170 Russian_Smolensk

It doesn't seem to be the case. Christians Lebanese are closer to europeans than Muslims are to europeans.
Muslims have a little more input from Yamnaya but for to say they are "genetically more european", according what?just because of this input?because for example, we can to say Muslims are genetically more african too (Christians have none or very very little African input).

Cynic
04-29-2021, 07:04 AM
Lebanese and Syrian Muslims have Turkish input.

Target: Lebanese_Muslim_Sunni
Distance: 0.4193% / 0.00419340
71.8 Lebanese_Druze
11.2 Turkish_Kayseri
7.6 Somali
6.6 Turkish_Adana
2.8 Saudi

Target: Lebanese_Muslim_Shia
Distance: 0.4271% / 0.00427081
70.2 Lebanese_Druze
17.4 Turkish_Adana
4.2 Saudi
4.0 Somali
3.0 Turkish_Central
1.2 Turkish_Kayseri

Target: Lebanese_Muslim
Distance: 0.4611% / 0.00461054
77.4 Lebanese_Druze
6.0 Turkish_Adana
5.2 Saudi
4.0 Turkish_Kayseri
2.6 Turkish_Central
2.0 Somali
1.6 German
1.2 Turkish_Balikesir

Target: Lebanese_Christian_Maronite
Distance: 1.0374% / 0.01037376
91.8 Lebanese_Druze
4.4 Saudi
3.8 Turkish_Kayseri

Target: Lebanese_Christian_Greek_Orthodox
Distance: 1.1091% / 0.01109115
93.2 Lebanese_Druze
4.8 Saudi
2.0 Turkish_Kayseri

Target: Lebanese_Christian
Distance: 1.1139% / 0.01113934
89.0 Lebanese_Druze
9.0 Saudi
2.0 German

Lebanese Muslims achieved higher steppe by mixing with Turks:

Target: Lebanese_Muslim_Sunni
Distance: 1.0867% / 0.01086675
38.8 Levant_JOR_EBA
23.6 TUR_Barcin_N
16.6 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
8.8 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
8.0 Somali
3.2 GEO_CHG
1.0 Mongol

Target: Lebanese_Muslim_Shia
Distance: 0.9223% / 0.00922293
40.2 Levant_JOR_EBA
24.4 TUR_Barcin_N
18.4 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
8.8 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
4.6 Somali
2.6 GEO_CHG
1.0 Mongol

Target: Lebanese_Muslim
Distance: 1.1726% / 0.01172610
42.8 Levant_JOR_EBA
24.4 TUR_Barcin_N
16.0 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
10.0 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
3.2 Somali
2.8 GEO_CHG
0.8 Mongol

Target: Lebanese_Christian_Maronite
Distance: 0.9343% / 0.00934267
48.2 Levant_JOR_EBA
26.8 TUR_Barcin_N
14.2 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
5.6 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
5.2 GEO_CHG

Target: Lebanese_Christian_Greek_Orthodox
Distance: 0.9317% / 0.00931745
48.2 Levant_JOR_EBA
27.2 TUR_Barcin_N
14.2 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
5.4 GEO_CHG
5.0 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara

Target: Lebanese_Christian
Distance: 0.9831% / 0.00983075
49.2 Levant_JOR_EBA
27.0 TUR_Barcin_N
14.4 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
6.0 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
3.2 GEO_CHG
0.2 Somali

Target: Turkish_Kayseri
Distance: 1.2327% / 0.01232735
31.8 TUR_Barcin_N
20.4 Levant_JOR_EBA
15.6 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
12.8 GEO_CHG
12.4 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
7.0 Mongol

Target: Turkish_Istanbul
Distance: 0.9714% / 0.00971403
38.0 TUR_Barcin_N
22.8 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
13.0 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
11.6 Levant_JOR_EBA
7.6 GEO_CHG
7.0 Mongol

Target: Turkish_Central
Distance: 0.9567% / 0.00956713
31.0 TUR_Barcin_N
19.4 Levant_JOR_EBA
14.0 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
13.8 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
12.4 GEO_CHG
9.4 Mongol

Target: Turkish_Balikesir
Distance: 0.7943% / 0.00794262
32.8 TUR_Barcin_N
22.0 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
14.8 Mongol
12.8 Levant_JOR_EBA
11.6 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
6.0 GEO_CHG

Target: Turkish_Aydin
Distance: 0.8200% / 0.00819966
30.8 TUR_Barcin_N
17.4 Levant_JOR_EBA
16.6 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
15.2 Mongol
10.4 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
9.6 GEO_CHG

Target: Turkish_Adana
Distance: 0.9680% / 0.00968007
30.2 TUR_Barcin_N
20.0 Levant_JOR_EBA
18.2 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
14.6 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
9.2 GEO_CHG
7.8 Mongol

This can make Euro populations show up in some calculators.

Aben Aboo
05-03-2021, 08:07 PM
Yes, i think it's more through Turkish people they have this input, because of the Ottoman Caliphate, history, neighbor country, same religion so the possibility of more interactions like the marriage act between them, ect.

drobbah
05-03-2021, 08:12 PM
Don't the Egyptian muslims also have more Steppe then the copts? Perhaps just like the West African/Sudanese admixture in MENA muslims, increased steppe compared to their Christian counterparts might come from the Islamic slave trade?

Aben Aboo
05-03-2021, 08:20 PM
I don't think it's only through the slavery.
Muslims Caucasians people and Turkish are just near to this area.
And in the Islamic era there was more circulation and interactions between peoples, especially as the Levant is at the crossroads and heart of the Arab Muslim zone.

drobbah
05-03-2021, 08:48 PM
I don't think it's only through the slavery.
Muslims Caucasians people and Turkish are just near to this area.
And in the Islamic era there was more circulation and interactions between peoples, especially as the Levant is at the crossroads and heart of the Arab Muslim zone.
There was large amounts of European slaves especially via Crimea and later the Barbary slave trade.Many of those Turks were slaves themselves although the men were mostly military slaves.

Ofcourse not all Euro admixture is slavery mediated just like all the West African/Sahelian or Bantu admixture isn't just slavery mediated.Till today there are descendants of West African pilgrims in the Hijaz and Jerusalem

Alexander87
05-04-2021, 10:50 PM
Yes, i think it's more through Turkish people they have this input, because of the Ottoman Caliphate, history, neighbor country, same religion so the possibility of more interactions like the marriage act between them, ect.

I don't think it's as simple as Lebanese muslims mixed with Turkish muslims. After all how did Lebanese Christians get steppe admixture as well? It could have been through the same Greco/Anatolian source.

kingeo
05-04-2021, 11:15 PM
Lebanese Muslims have more steppe ancestry compared to Lebanese Christians who are more genetically isolated. This steppe could have come from mixing with Persians, Turks, or other groups nearby.

Aben Aboo
05-05-2021, 04:01 AM
There was large amounts of European slaves especially via Crimea and later the Barbary slave trade.Many of those Turks were slaves themselves although the men were mostly military slaves.

Ofcourse not all Euro admixture is slavery mediated just like all the West African/Sahelian or Bantu admixture isn't just slavery mediated.Till today there are descendants of West African pilgrims in the Hijaz and Jerusalem

Yes but Yamnaya is more common than SSA, because this component is more common and with a good amount, among some Natives of West Asia area, like the Turkish, Caucasians and Persians people

Aben Aboo
05-05-2021, 04:05 AM
I don't think it's as simple as Lebanese muslims mixed with Turkish muslims. After all how did Lebanese Christians get steppe admixture as well? It could have been through the same Greco/Anatolian source.

Yes it is one source among many others and because Lebanese Christians are more isolated on genetical point of view, so I think that explains they have less Steppe than Muslims.

Cynic
05-05-2021, 06:50 AM
I don't think it's as simple as Lebanese muslims mixed with Turkish muslims. After all how did Lebanese Christians get steppe admixture as well? It could have been through the same Greco/Anatolian source.

There may be layers of steppe ancestry, one arrived with the Greeks prior to Islam and a later one with Anatolian Turks that ended up in the Muslims. So the Muslims have both layers of steppe and the Christians have one which explains why the Muslims have greater steppe.

Alexander87
05-13-2021, 02:04 AM
I would suggest reading this paper as it is quite informative to the question raised by the original post:https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0002929720301555
Now much of what this paper implies can be demonstrated using G25 coordinates and vahaduo. I want to focus in on one of the points made in the paper. It suggests the last admixing event in Lebanon happened during the Ottoman period and that it introduced further Turkish and Caucasian ancestry into the area. It tried to model modern Lebanese with Lebanese samples from the middle ages and samples of modern Caucasian/Turkish populations. This would be found in figure S12 I believe. I have been able to successfully replicate all of their models with G25 and Vahaduo but this last model of theirs is doubtful for the following reasons:1)Modern Caucasian such as Armenians or Turkish populations would already have Anatolian admixture and might produce results with decent fits but only because you have an overlap of Anatolian and Caucasian that was already found in Lebanese 2) the study in no way discusses what religious populations it used for the modern Lebanese and if they averaged out Lebanese admixture using samples from all religious backgrounds it would not in fact respect the historical genetic differences between these groups as some were most definitely more isolated/"picky" in who they would admix with. This is would cause problems with the results. 3) similar results and even better results can be made using Cypriot/Aegean islander populations or Greco-Anatolian populations. But this differs from religious group to religious group
I'd like to show you what I came up with using Lebanese_MA and other populations. I went ahead and used other populations from a similar time rather than using modern populations.
Here are the distances and percentages of modern Lebanese using Lebanon_MA and various populations(I included my dad just for fun)
Distance to: Lebanese_Muslim_Sunni
0.03405014 89.40% Levant_LBN_MA + 10.60% Turkish_Ottoman:TUR_Ottoman

Distance to: Lebanese_Muslim_Shia
0.02638848 89.40% Levant_LBN_MA + 10.60% Turkish_Ottoman:TUR_Ottoman

Distance to: Lebanese_Muslim
0.02361289 90.80% Levant_LBN_MA + 9.20% Turkish_Ottoman:TUR_Ottoman

Distance to: Lebanese_Druze
0.02155512 93.80% Levant_LBN_MA + 6.20% Turkish_Ottoman:TUR_Ottoman

Distance to: Lebanese_Christian_Maronite
0.01937967 97.40% Levant_LBN_MA + 2.60% Turkish_Ottoman:TUR_Ottoman

Distance to: Lebanese_Christian_Greek_Orthodox
0.01828678 97.80% Levant_LBN_MA + 2.20% Turkish_Ottoman:TUR_Ottoman

Distance to: Lebanese_Christian
0.02025725 97.40% Levant_LBN_MA + 2.60% Turkish_Ottoman:TUR_Ottoman

Distance to: Dad_scaled
0.03051328 96.80% Levant_LBN_MA + 3.20% Turkish_Ottoman:TUR_Ottoman


Distance to: Lebanese_Muslim_Sunni
0.03771747 83.20% Levant_LBN_MA + 16.80% RUS_Alan_MA

Distance to: Lebanese_Muslim_Shia
0.02760301 80.00% Levant_LBN_MA + 20.00% RUS_Alan_MA

Distance to: Lebanese_Muslim
0.02253422 81.00% Levant_LBN_MA + 19.00% RUS_Alan_MA

Distance to: Lebanese_Druze
0.01580391 83.40% Levant_LBN_MA + 16.60% RUS_Alan_MA

Distance to: Lebanese_Christian_Maronite
0.01657890 90.60% Levant_LBN_MA + 9.40% RUS_Alan_MA

Distance to: Lebanese_Christian_Greek_Orthodox
0.01604525 91.80% Levant_LBN_MA + 8.20% RUS_Alan_MA

Distance to: Lebanese_Christian
0.01928881 92.80% Levant_LBN_MA + 7.20% RUS_Alan_MA

Distance to: Dad_scaled
0.02626424 86.40% Levant_LBN_MA + 13.60% RUS_Alan_MA


Distance to: Lebanese_Muslim_Sunni
0.04304965 89.80% Levant_LBN_MA + 10.20% Greco_Romani

Distance to: Lebanese_Muslim_Shia
0.03644835 82.60% Levant_LBN_MA + 17.40% Greco_Romani

Distance to: Lebanese_Muslim
0.02986493 74.60% Levant_LBN_MA + 25.40% Greco_Romani

Distance to: Lebanese_Druze
0.02195459 73.60% Levant_LBN_MA + 26.40% Greco_Romani

Distance to: Lebanese_Christian_Maronite
0.01649155 78.80% Levant_LBN_MA + 21.20% Greco_Romani

Distance to: Lebanese_Christian_Greek_Orthodox
0.01561370 80.60% Levant_LBN_MA + 19.40% Greco_Romani

Distance to: Lebanese_Christian
0.01772235 79.00% Levant_LBN_MA + 21.00% Greco_Romani

Distance to: Dad_scaled
0.02695162 71.20% Levant_LBN_MA + 28.80% Greco_Romani



Distance to: Lebanese_Muslim_Sunni
0.04231258 87.80% Levant_LBN_MA + 12.20% Byzantium_MA

Distance to: Lebanese_Muslim_Shia
0.03528097 83.40% Levant_LBN_MA + 16.60% Byzantium_MA

Distance to: Lebanese_Muslim
0.02804456 78.00% Levant_LBN_MA + 22.00% Byzantium_MA

Distance to: Lebanese_Druze
0.02095446 79.80% Levant_LBN_MA + 20.20% Byzantium_MA

Distance to: Lebanese_Christian_Maronite
0.01650867 85.00% Levant_LBN_MA + 15.00% Byzantium_MA

Distance to: Lebanese_Christian_Greek_Orthodox
0.01594836 86.80% Levant_LBN_MA + 13.20% Byzantium_MA

Distance to: Lebanese_Christian
0.01787563 85.40% Levant_LBN_MA + 14.60% Byzantium_MA

Distance to: Dad_scaled
0.02710190 80.00% Levant_LBN_MA + 20.00% Byzantium_MA

So first thing to notice is that the results are somewhat generally similar but you'll notice different percentages for each modern population as well as distances. Here you already see a difference for what non-Christian groups prefer vs what Christian groups prefer. This is just to display that we can model modern Lebanese with Greco-Anatolain just as good as with Turkish/ Caucasian. Next lets look at deep ancestry of all the modern groups along with Lebanon_MA. This will help us understand what we are looking at better, kind of giving us a view of the forest rather than being lost in the trees. I'll use Onur's latest deep ancestry calculator
44668
So the thing to notice is that while Muslims have more steppe admixture than Christians they also have less Anatolian than Christians as well. In fact the have less Anatolian then the Medieval average which seems to indicate that the Anatolian input in Muslims degraded more recently. It also seems to indicate a more eastern source for the Muslim steppe. That's because while all Lebanese averages have more steppe than the Medieval average only the Muslims have less Anatolian. Less Anatolian would be found in eastern populations even north eastern populations maybe around the Caucasus. However no real increase in CHG in Muslims so maybe not Caucasus. If any increase in CHG it might be in Christians but I will get to that. So big picture: Muslims more steppe less Anatolian(on average) Christians less steppe more Anatolian(on average). So next I will try and model modern Lebanese populations with Lebanon_MA and other populations from the Middle ages. I will use RUS_Alan_MA for Caucasus, Ghaznavid_MA which would be for Central Asia(they were Mamluk/Persian), Turkish_Ottoman:TUR_Ottoman for Eastern Anatolian which should compliment the Ghaznavid well, Dinka for African admixture but its not a Middle age population but will do just fine(don't now enough about Africa in the Middle Ages), and finally GREECE_BYZANTINE_MEDIEVAL for Western Anatolian/Aegean. It's actually just Greek Izmir but it will do as a proxy for that part of the world. Honestly we lack Greek samples from this time period. Anyways this is what i get
44676
As you can see the Muslim averages have higher proportions of the Ghaznavid_MA, Turkish_Ottoman:TUR_Ottoman, and Dinka, while generally they have lower proportions of the Byzantine. This would corroborate what we saw with the deep ancestry, that Muslims are more Eastern shifted than their Christian counter parts as well as having more African admixture. So it would seem that in fact the Muslim population in Lebanon received there steppe input from an eastern source while Christians received it from a more western source. Remember we're talking about averages. Also keep in mind none of this is exact. It just shows the big picture. I can try and model modern Lebanese with Lebanon_MA and a modern population like the paper did but it muddies the water. But for Christians i don't think their steppe input came from Armenians for 2 reasons 1) Armenians on average carry low steppe admixture anyways and it's hard to see them being the sole reason why the steppe input increased in frequency and proportions in Christians. Though they might be the reason in the increase of Caucasian input 2) Historically, while there have been Armenians living in Lebanon for a long time their presence was minimal. The great influx of Armenians to the area came during the Armenian genocide around a 100 years ago. Many of them left during the civil war in Lebanon. But i do think they had localized impacts on the Lebanese populations. I think another source of steppe input and in fact some more Anatolian input in Christians would be either Greek Islanders including the Cypriots(I asked a Cypriot on this forum about Cypriot interaction with Lebanon and he told me that Cypriots have historically traded with the Lebanese and have settled in the coastal areas) or, maybe even and, Greco-Anatolians. These would be Christian populations who would have Anatolian/Caucasian/Iranic admixture as well as moderate steppe input. Cypriots and Greco-Anatolians would no doubt carry diluted Greek admixture. For Muslims all i could say is the source for any further admixture during the Ottoman period would be Muslim populations east of the Levant. I just want to repeat I'm talking about averages. Of course there could be Western shifted Muslims in Lebanon who hypothetically mixed with Greek Muslims who have actually settled in the area and vice versa for Christians. Anyways to answer the OP, Muslims are not genetically more European than Christians, the opposite is true. Steppe does not=European.

Alexander87
05-13-2021, 02:05 AM
44677
this was the results using Onur's deep ancestry calculator

Lupriac
05-15-2021, 07:55 PM
Here are the distances and percentages of modern Lebanese using Lebanon_MA and various populations(I included my dad just for fun)
Are you using the averages on G25? Those averages are skewed as they have a handful of outliers that will shift the average. I'm interested to see the same models but with better averages.

altvred
05-16-2021, 02:49 AM
Are you using the averages on G25? Those averages are skewed as they have a handful of outliers that will shift the average. I'm interested to see the same models but with better averages.

The main differentiating factor between Muslim and non-Muslim religious minorities from the same countries in the Middle East appears to be relatively minor but noticeable gene flow into the local Muslim population that dates to the last 1000+ years absent in the endogamous religious minority groups.

The trace Sub-Saharan African admixture is probably the most obvious. In addition, it looks like some of the samples labeled Lebanese_Muslim and Lebanese from the HO dataset are shifted, albeit towards Turks, when plotting with smartpca.

I wouldn't be surprised if the additional 'Steppe/European' like component in Lebanon were brought by Ottoman rule along with some East Asian ancestry possibly.

https://i.imgur.com/djNKvJb.png


https://i.imgur.com/8AUbOoK.png