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View Full Version : Haplgroup Balkan in North africa



capsian
03-20-2021, 02:13 PM
Here they can be Vandals or Illyrians recruits in the roman army
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Bane
03-20-2021, 03:12 PM
Here they can be Vandals or Illyrians recruits in the roman army
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This is quite interesting.
However, this branch has little or nothing to do with the Balkans. According to YFull this branch separated from the rest of E-L618 lineages 7800 years ago.
Here is the same node in the FTDNA tree: https://www.familytreedna.com/public/y-dna-haplotree/E;name=E-BY28614

vasil
03-20-2021, 03:24 PM
Not likely to be from the Balkans but it is interesting nontheless and maybe sorta pushes us to the theory that E-L618 could have entered Europe from North Africa and not directly from the Levant.

Hawk
03-20-2021, 04:34 PM
Not likely to be from the Balkans but it is interesting nontheless and maybe sorta pushes us to the theory that E-L618 could have entered Europe from North Africa and not directly from the Levant.

There is E-L618 from Syria, Lebanon, Albania, Greece, Neolithic Croatia. I think Cardial Pottery Culture is undeniable.

vasil
03-20-2021, 04:41 PM
There is E-L618 from Syria, Lebanon, Albania, Greece, Neolithic Croatia. I think Cardial Pottery Culture is undeniable.

I agree with the Cardium pottery and that being derived from PPNB but did they take the Anatolian/Balkan route or did they hop aegean islands directly from Levant or from North Africa we simply dont know so thats what i meant.

altvred
03-20-2021, 05:30 PM
I agree with the Cardium pottery and that being derived from PPNB but did they take the Anatolian/Balkan route or did they hop aegean islands directly from Levant or from North Africa we simply dont know so thats what i meant.

From the 2018 paper The genomic history of southeastern Europe (http://europepmc.org/articles/pmc6091220)

https://i.imgur.com/f5CPJbU.png

TLDR version, they assume that the Epicardial and LBK split happened in the Balkans and that both of the groups originated from a single migration out of western Anatolia.

However, the Greek-Neolithic farmers are too CHG shifted, so they probably originated from Central Anatolia or somewhere further East.

capsian
03-20-2021, 05:39 PM
I agree with the Cardium pottery and that being derived from PPNB but did they take the Anatolian/Balkan route or did they hop aegean islands directly from Levant or from North Africa we simply dont know so thats what i meant.

Maybe they take the Anatolian/Balkan route because there found remains from barcin 8600 years under E-M35 mostly on preE-L618*

Riverman
03-20-2021, 06:34 PM
E-L618 is likely to have expanded in both directions, towards North Africa with IBM, towards the Levante with Natufians. That doesn't answer the original homeland, for which either North Eastern Africa/Egypt or the Southern Near East are the most likely candidates. But either way, this has little to do with how it entered Europe, which was with the Neolithic colonisers from the Levante and Anatolia.

drobbah
03-20-2021, 07:32 PM
E-L618 is likely to have expanded in both directions, towards North Africa with IBM, towards the Levante with Natufians. That doesn't answer the original homeland, for which either North Eastern Africa/Egypt or the Southern Near East are the most likely candidates. But either way, this has little to do with how it entered Europe, which was with the Neolithic colonisers from the Levante and Anatolia.
The Natufians didn't carry any E-M78 lineages.I think E-M78 lineages were introduced later plus the oldest ancient samples of E-M78 are in the Maghreb as of now

RCO
03-20-2021, 07:47 PM
A basal branch almost always indicates where the ancient branch was before other ramifications moved away.

davit
03-20-2021, 07:50 PM
A basal branch almost always indicates where the ancient branch was before other ramifications moved away.

So R1b originated in Iran then?

Hawk
03-20-2021, 07:51 PM
The Natufians didn't carry any E-M78 lineages.I think E-M78 lineages were introduced later plus the oldest ancient samples of E-M78 are in the Maghreb as of now

Not all Natufians are sampled. I think Mushabian movement archeologically is too late for Natufian E-M35 who were roaming earlier during Paleolithic times.

Very likely that the Mushabian movement and influence on Levant was owerhelmy E-M78 with E-L618 being the Northernmost.

RCO
03-20-2021, 07:54 PM
So R1b originated in Iran then?

Quite possible and also R1a.

davit
03-20-2021, 08:30 PM
Quite possible and also R1a.

So did R1a and R1b cremate themselves to avoid being found in ancient DNA and keep the Iranian hypothesis alive?

Riverman
03-20-2021, 08:54 PM
A basal branch almost always indicates where the ancient branch was before other ramifications moved away.

Or they just represent an earlier, respectively surviving older branch. Doesnt help in this case anyway, because basal branches being present in the Near East as well as North Africa.

capsian
03-20-2021, 08:58 PM
The Natufians didn't carry any E-M78 lineages.I think E-M78 lineages were introduced later plus the oldest ancient samples of E-M78 are in the Maghreb as of now

i saw theres a remains on Haplogroup E-M78* belong to culture PPNB 9000 yrs .
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It seems that he was mixed between the of farmers Anatolia and the Levant according to what i saw in autsomal
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drobbah
03-21-2021, 02:09 AM
i saw theres a remains on Haplogroup E-M78* belong to culture PPNB 9000 yrs .
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It seems that he was mixed between the of farmers Anatolia and the Levant according to what i saw in autsomal
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It's still younger than the E-M78 samples in Morocco which are between 13-15k year old.Anyways we desperately need ancient samples from the Nile Valley (Egypt/Nubia) to truly understand the migrations of various E-M78 lineages within Africa and ultimately how specific successful lineages left the continent for Europe or the Middle East.

Hawk
03-21-2021, 08:16 AM
The Basal position of the E-M78 in the PPNB individual even so the sample is younger than Taforalt , but the this and the fact that he didn't differ autosomally from the other PPNB individuals (didn't have Iberomaurusian ancestry)
could suggest two things either E-M78 had a common ancestor in the Levant who then expanded with the Levantine ancestry with the Iberomaurosians and wasn't found in the Natufians due to a coincidence or not enough samples , Or
E-M78 came into Levant slightly later from North africa > Egypt , but in either cases it suggest that the common ancestor with E-M78 had only the Levantine part that's common between Iberomaurusian and PPNB and Natufians.
https://i.ibb.co/TB9tv4f/image.png

There is no other way around. Mushabian Afro-Asiatic speakers who carried E-M78 mixed but stayed in low numbers with Ramonian Natufians who were overwhelmly E-M34, and spread the Afro-Asiatic language in Middle East eventually evolving into Pre Proto-Semitic/Proto-Semitic millennias latter.

E-L618 went further North spreading the idea of farming in Anatolia. Just as in other cases, it stayed in relatively low numbers (for unknown reasons).

capsian
03-21-2021, 11:15 AM
It's still younger than the E-M78 samples in Morocco which are between 13-15k year old.Anyways we desperately need ancient samples from the Nile Valley (Egypt/Nubia) to truly understand the migrations of various E-M78 lineages within Africa and ultimately how specific successful lineages left the continent for Europe or the Middle East.
i saw news about remains will tested in egypt belong in period Mesolithic
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https://twitter.com/KendraSirak/status/1362207072926982145

capsian
03-21-2021, 11:16 AM
The Basal position of the E-M78 in the PPNB individual even so the sample is younger than Taforalt , but the this and the fact that he didn't differ autosomally from the other PPNB individuals (didn't have Iberomaurusian ancestry)
could suggest two things either E-M78 had a common ancestor in the Levant who then expanded with the Levantine ancestry with the Iberomaurosians and wasn't found in the Natufians due to a coincidence or not enough samples , Or
E-M78 came into Levant slightly later from North africa > Egypt , but in either cases it suggest that the common ancestor with E-M78 had only the Levantine part that's common between Iberomaurusian and PPNB and Natufians.
https://i.ibb.co/TB9tv4f/image.png

yes but Haplgroup E-V68 orgin North Africa

broder
03-22-2021, 03:53 PM
This is quite interesting.
However, this branch has little or nothing to do with the Balkans. According to YFull this branch separated from the rest of E-L618 lineages 7800 years ago.
Here is the same node in the FTDNA tree: https://www.familytreedna.com/public/y-dna-haplotree/E;name=E-BY28614

Wrong. Those two samples are not from Algeria as Capsian has labeled them. Both, YF66356 and YF66124, are Albanian from southern Albania.

capsian
03-22-2021, 04:25 PM
Wrong. Those two samples are not from Algeria as Capsian has labeled them. Both, YF66356 and YF66124, are Albanian from southern Albania.

aha ok thank sorry i was think from algeria

capsian
03-22-2021, 04:27 PM
Wrong. Those two samples are not from Algeria as Capsian has labeled them. Both, YF66356 and YF66124, are Albanian from southern Albania.

i will amend this post

capsian
03-22-2021, 04:34 PM
Edit thanks thank you broder
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TuaMan
03-23-2021, 02:48 PM
How many private SNPs did the Iberomaurusian E-M78* have, how close were they to the actual tMRCA of E-M78? Were they really pre-M78?

Telgou
03-29-2021, 01:53 AM
Here they can be Vandals or Illyrians recruits in the roman army
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Absolutely nothing to do with any vandal or illyrian. The algerian(s) are from a number of (sub)tribes high in the aures mountains, it was discovered by a very informative independent researcher from algeria who is working on it.

capsian
03-29-2021, 12:14 PM
Absolutely nothing to do with any vandal or illyrian. The algerian(s) are from a number of (sub)tribes high in the aures mountains, it was discovered by a very informative independent researcher from algeria who is working on it.

this branch is illyrian balkanian this fact

Telgou
03-29-2021, 04:46 PM
this branch is illyrian balkanian this fact

where is that fact ? you are confusing that subclade for e-v13 which is the balkanian one.

capsian
03-29-2021, 05:01 PM
where is that fact ? you are confusing that subclade for e-v13 which is the balkanian one.

E-L618 is branch balkan this fact no north african Berbers
Berbers are E-L19

Squad
04-06-2021, 12:53 AM
E-L618 is branch balkan this fact no north african Berbers
Berbers are E-L19

Wrong. Berbers were originally mainly M78 most likely. Id say V65 and V22 mainly. L19 is IBM that is pre-berber

Telgou
04-17-2021, 01:57 AM
E-L618 Balkan this fact
Berbers are only E-L19

E-l618 did not originate in the balkans. Iberomaurusians in Taforalt already had E-L618*.
If you are being selective then berbers are only e-m81.

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04-17-2021, 02:18 AM
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capsian
04-17-2021, 02:19 PM
E-l618 did not originate in the balkans. Iberomaurusians in Taforalt already had E-L618*.
If you are being selective then berbers are only e-m81.

Taforalt are just E-M78* are not E-L618
but sure L618 beofore 15.000 yrs old was in north africa

peloponnesian
04-17-2021, 04:46 PM
However, the Greek-Neolithic farmers are too CHG shifted, so they probably originated from Central Anatolia or somewhere further East.

The Greek Neolithic lasted for thousands of years and even the Greek Mesolithic is suspected to be Barcin-like. I think it's more probable that some Greek Neolithic samples show more CHG and Iran_N ancestry because of later migratory pulses from Anatolia, after the initial migration from west Anatolia. Not because they come from a different source population. Anyway, I think the idea that Greek Neolithic samples are drastically different from EEF is a bit blown out of proportion:

https://i.imgur.com/79y1Yhs.png

Telgou
04-18-2021, 01:35 AM
Finally, haplogroup E-L618, described in a 15,000-year-old modern humanfrom eastern Morocco attributed to the Iberomaurusian culture [72] From "Y-chromosome and Surname Analyses for Reconstructing Past Population Structures: The Sardinian Population as a Test Case" citing the original study.

capsian
04-18-2021, 03:43 PM
From "Y-chromosome and Surname Analyses for Reconstructing Past Population Structures: The Sardinian Population as a Test Case" citing the original study.

it s negative Z1919 how do you want be possitive L618
but even if it is not found in taforalt, it is natural and L618 15000 years ago was in north africa

capsian
04-18-2021, 03:51 PM
i will give to you some exmple
you know remains from Lebanon on Y DNA E-V22
It was in study E-V65 but my friend he is analyzed this bam file remains and was under haplgroup E-V22 however they did not correct it in study

capsian
05-07-2021, 12:08 PM
It seems that they came in the Copper Age 1000 BC with other Y DNA Haplogroups G2a R-M269
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