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RCO
03-23-2021, 12:59 PM
Origin and diffusion of human Y chromosome haplogroup J1-M267
Sahakyan, H., Margaryan, A., Saag, L. et al. Origin and diffusion of human Y chromosome haplogroup J1-M267. Sci Rep 11, 6659 (2021).
nature scientific reports
https://doi.org/10.1038/s41598-021-85883-2


Abstract
Human Y chromosome haplogroup J1-M267 is a common male lineage in West Asia. One high-frequency region—encompassing the Arabian Peninsula, southern Mesopotamia, and the southern Levant—resides ~ 2000 km away from the other one found in the Caucasus. The region between them, although has a lower frequency, nevertheless demonstrates high genetic diversity. Studies associate this haplogroup with the spread of farming from the Fertile Crescent to Europe, the spread of mobile pastoralism in the desert regions of the Arabian Peninsula, the history of the Jews, and the spread of Islam. Here, we study past human male demography in West Asia with 172 high-coverage whole Y chromosome sequences and 889 genotyped samples of haplogroup J1-M267. We show that this haplogroup evolved ~ 20,000 years ago somewhere in northwestern Iran, the Caucasus, the Armenian Highland, and northern Mesopotamia. The major branch—J1a1a1-P58—evolved during the early Holocene ~ 9500 years ago somewhere in the Arabian Peninsula, the Levant, and southern Mesopotamia. Haplogroup J1-M267 expanded during the Chalcolithic, the Bronze Age, and the Iron Age. Most probably, the spread of Afro-Asiatic languages, the spread of mobile pastoralism in the arid zones, or both of these events together explain the distribution of haplogroup J1-M267 we see today in the southern regions of West Asia.

They avoided or did not want to include our J1-FGC6064 and J1-ZS6599 for a scientific or political agenda. I wonder how in 2021 with high coverage methods they want to investigate a big haplogroup cancelling important phylogenetic branches in some of the most important frontiers of the Mesolithic/Bronze Age in Western Asia.

hartaisarlag
03-23-2021, 01:41 PM
Origin and diffusion of human Y chromosome haplogroup J1-M267
Sahakyan, H., Margaryan, A., Saag, L. et al. Origin and diffusion of human Y chromosome haplogroup J1-M267. Sci Rep 11, 6659 (2021).
nature scientific reports
https://doi.org/10.1038/s41598-021-85883-2



They avoided or did not want to include our J1-FGC6064 and J1-ZS6599 for a scientific or political agenda. I wonder how in 2021 with high coverage methods they want to investigate a big haplogroup cancelling important phylogenetic branches in some of the most important frontiers of the Mesolithic/Bronze Age in Western Asia.

What possible political agenda?

J1 DYS388=13
03-23-2021, 01:41 PM
Maybe they didn't have any high-coverage whole Y chromosome sequences for those branches.

RCO
03-23-2021, 01:51 PM
If you are a good scientist you must collect all relevant data related to a phenomenon you want to investigate, specially if you want to publish in a good scientific journal. They pretended not to see our clades, a simple look at ISOGG, YFull or FTDNA will show that. The political agenda is why they erased our branches and what they can represent in contrast to other J1 branches ? I asked the authors ? When I read the title I thought I would finally read a good comprehensive article about our haplogroup but as they say in London: Mind the gap !

hartaisarlag
03-23-2021, 02:05 PM
If you are a good scientist you must collect all relevant data related to a phenomenon you want to investigate, specially if you want to publish in a good scientific journal. They pretended not to see our clades, a simple look at ISOGG, YFull or FTDNA will show that. The political agenda is why they erased our branches and what they can represent in contrast to other J1 branches ? I asked the authors ? When I read the title I thought I would finally read a good comprehensive article about our haplogroup but as they say in London: Mind the gap !

They made other mistakes in the paper that could lead me to cry antisemitism if I were paranoid. Most of the time, it's indifference, not conspiracy.

I'm sorry that they ignored your clade; would've been great for them to account for it. But why is it a foregone conclusion that they have a political agenda? What possible political agenda could be at play?

hartaisarlag
03-23-2021, 02:10 PM
Or, say, if I were a Muslim Arab, I could be paranoid about the following, especially in light of the evidence that there are very large branches under J-FGC11 and J-YSC76 that clearly correspond to the Islamic conquests/Arab migrations of the early medieval period:

"Studies explain the current distribution of haplogroup J1-M267 to be a result of the Arab conquests connected to the diffusion of Islam. If this scenario would have been true in West Asia, then the phylogeny of haplogroup J1-M267 should have contained multiple coalescences between representatives of different Arab populations within the time, when the diffusion of Islam occurred, that is, in the last ~ 1.3 ky. In reality, such coalescences occur mostly within the period of ~ 2 to ~ 5 kya (Supplementary File S1). Moreover, we don’t find a substantial increase of Ne after ~ 1.3 kya. These observations contradict the connection between the spread of this haplogroup and the spread of Islam in West Asia and Egypt, consistent with previous study."

In fact, for the meteorically successful J-L859 branch, which almost certain corresponds to the Quraysh clan, they only note a single Malay member, and don't write a word about it. I'm not an Arab or a Muslim, but I imagine I could find reasons to be frustrated and suspicious if I were!

Agamemnon
03-23-2021, 02:28 PM
Not too sure about Northern Iran as the homeland of M267, it isn't in any way unlikely (far from it), that being said there is mounting evidence that it might have been further west around the southern slopes of the Caucasus (which would fit better with the earliest cases we know of, namely Satsurblia and the Karelian HGs) and the amazing thing reading the supplementary note is that they're aware of it. A long-held assumption is that it had something to do with the Zarzian culture, so the Zagros is another possibility, I think the Late Pleistocene Gulf refugium might be worthy of consideration as well, but the truth is that with so few Paleolithic samples from West Asia this is pure speculation, so to stay on the safe side an origin around present-day Georgia seems most likely for the time being.

Likewise, Northern Arabia as P58's homeland isn't convincing, I think we can be pretty certain it arose in Mesopotamia. Speaking of ancient samples, they missed a huge opportunity to detail the numerous correspondences between P58's phylogeny and the Semitic language tree and evaluate those correspondences by looking at the dozens of ancient P58 individuals from early Semitic-speaking populations. We're no longer dealing with conjecture based on modern-day distribution, we have ancient data to verify the correlation now, but instead the authors are unnecessarily vague, choosing to focus on "the spread of Afro-Asiatic languages" as if P58 had a major role in early AA dispersals, which is even less likely than P58 arising in Northern Arabia.

RCO, I think the exclusion of your branch has more to do with its absence in the ancient dataset than with any political agenda, to be sure though this is a bone-headed approach as it could be an example of a branch that made it early to Central Asia, and this is one of the things which might push M267's homeland further east on the Iranian plateau.

RCO
03-23-2021, 02:34 PM
I am more interested in the phylogenetic structure of the haplogroup because basal branches are extremely important and can provide valuable insight into its region and population of origin.

Agamemnon
03-23-2021, 02:52 PM
In Table S3 they list I3965 from BA Hazor as B2070 (which I assume is Z27681) and R835 from Civitanova Marche as "B877" (Y3081?) but I10268 and I4517 as "PF4881" even though we know they're both Y3081. IMO with enough resolution we'd find out that most of the samples from Megiddo were Y3081 anyway, in-keeping with the predominance of a single branch at other sites. Still, this is strange... But not as strange as this:

"The spread of Islam did not substantially affect the distribution of haplogroup J1-M267 in West Asia."

A simple look at the branches found in the ancient samples from the Levant would invalidate this assertion.

capsian
03-23-2021, 03:39 PM
Origin and diffusion of human Y chromosome haplogroup J1-M267
Sahakyan, H., Margaryan, A., Saag, L. et al. Origin and diffusion of human Y chromosome haplogroup J1-M267. Sci Rep 11, 6659 (2021).
nature scientific reports
https://doi.org/10.1038/s41598-021-85883-2



They avoided or did not want to include our J1-FGC6064 and J1-ZS6599 for a scientific or political agenda. I wonder how in 2021 with high coverage methods they want to investigate a big haplogroup cancelling important phylogenetic branches in some of the most important frontiers of the Mesolithic/Bronze Age in Western Asia.

thanks you

Shamash
03-23-2021, 08:25 PM
My subclade FGC3723 is present with 10 samples in this study:

43985

This is the FGC3723 section of the J1-M267 tree!

Shamash
03-23-2021, 08:33 PM
They know so much less than we know here in this forum:

Studies with STR haplotypes, some of them also with combined SNP markers, have reported different lineages of haplogroup J1-M267 in East Africa, more specifically in Ethiopia, Sudan, and Somalia. Here, we have found at least three distinct lineages there. One of them likely belongs to a rare non-J1a1a1-P58 branch—J1a1a2-ZS4393—found among the Yemenis. The other two lineages belong to haplogroup J1a1a1-P58. One of them belongs to the widespread J1a1a1a1a1a1a1-L858 branch. The other is rare, found only in Omanis, Yemenis, Kuwaitis, and Ethiopians indicating a possible source. These lineages correspond to one or more migration episodes from West Asia to Ethiopia. Additional data may answer the question about the number of successful dispersals from West Asia to East Africa.

The bold one is supposedly FGC3723 which is mainly found in the Southwestern part of the Arabian Peninsula, but also in Ethiopia und Eritrea due to multiple migrations from Yemen.

And if I had to made a bet the Yemeni24_Mahwit sample is likely FGC3706 while the two samples from Taizz are Z18256.

RCO
03-24-2021, 02:14 PM
J1 branches 10000ybp - 8000BC still living (via YFull) and the archaeological discoveries
1- J1-Y6313-FT33726-FT265222
2- J1-Y6313-FT33726-FT34521 _ Satsurblia (13130-13380 ybp)
3- J1-Y6313-Y6304Y-F2306
4- J1-Y6313-Y6304Y-Y19093
5- J1-Z2215-Y29696
6- J1-Z2215-Y29696-PF7261-ZS3290
7- J1-Z2215-Y29696-PF7261-PH128
8- J1-Z2215-Z2217-CTS1026-Y136727_Afanasievo Mongolia (CTS1026>pre-Y136727/3107-2917 BC)
9- J1-Z2215-Z2217-CTS1026-Z1828
10-J1-Z2215-Z2217-L620-FGC6064-Y59693-Y48949
11-J1-Z2215-Z2217-L620-FGC6064-Y59693-Y177646
12-J1-Z2215-Z2217-L620-FGC6064-FGC6031
13-J1-Z2215-Z2217-L620- PF4816-ZS6599-ZS6638-Y169874-ZS6592_BMAC Gonur Tomb of the Warrior(2201-2031 calBCE) and Geoksyur
14-J1-Z2215-Z2217-L620- PF4816-ZS6599-ZS6638-Y169874-FT33771
15-J1-Z2215-Z2217-L620- PF4816-L136-ZS4393-ZS4416
16-J1-Z2215-Z2217-L620- PF4816-L136-ZS4393-P56
17-J1-Z2215-Z2217-L620- PF4816-L136-P58

We need the complete J1 history and we need to understand the social, demographic and genealogical structures. Of course J1-FGC6064 and J1-ZS6599 are essential links in the J1-L620 formation and expansion because they are related to the same origin and dissemination of L620. They were not Western Anatolians or Levantine Natufians but they were related to the expansion of Neolithic Iranian farmers and pastoralists in terms of ancient somatic variants.
Living lineages have and had different genetic admixtures, ethnicities, languages, polities, religions, frontiers and conflicts and they were completely different since then.

I am not a geneticist but we need to write a new article with the complete available data.

Yaroslav
03-24-2021, 04:09 PM
They avoided or did not want to include our J1-FGC6064 and J1-ZS6599

I think they used what they had available in scientific databases such as Human Genome Diversity Project, Estonian Biocentre etc. Unfortunately no J1-FGC6064 and J1-ZS6599 sample with Next Generation Sequence has been found yet in those databases.

Yaroslav
03-24-2021, 05:10 PM
I was lucky enough to find 3 samples (Sindhi, American and Lezgin) from our ZS3114 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-ZS3114/) (Y11645 in this paper).

I think Sindhi HGDP00197 could be of the same branch with the Indian ERR445281 from Y60194 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y60194/)

https://d.radikal.ru/d26/2103/cd/125a64cd1105.png

RCO
03-24-2021, 05:44 PM
When you are a scientist you must investigate all facts and if you want to write an article you must investigate all references, that is what I teach to my students in my area. Our branches are in ISOGG and that is one of their reference.
This is not the first time our branch is "forgotten or cancelled" for any reason that we can imagine.
When FTDNA created the big J1-M267 Project our M365>FGC6064 Project was not invited to join as part of all existing FTDNA's J1 Project branches. I paid and recruited several tests as administrator of several projects.
You can see that important J1 archaeological samples (Ancient DNA) like Gonur, Geoksyur and Afanasievo still are not in YFull's J1 tree when other haplogroups have immediate archaeological samples there, so let's wait and give time to time.

Johnny ola
03-25-2021, 02:47 AM
Any expert here to help me with this J1 subclade plss:

There is a Greek guy with the same surname as mines.Do we know with what populations/movements it might be connected?

J1-Z2215-Z2217-CTS1026-Z1828-Z18463-Z18471-BY94-ZS3128

https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-ZS3128/

J1 DYS388=13
03-25-2021, 09:07 AM
Any expert here to help me with this J1 subclade plss:

There is a Greek guy with the same surname as mines.Do we know with what populations/movements it might be connected?

J1-Z2215-Z2217-CTS1026-Z1828-Z18463-Z18471-BY94-ZS3128

https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-ZS3128/

The thing is, that whole branch is probably European, and native to just north of Greece. If you go back up the tree to Z18463 you have a TMRCA which is almost in the Neolithic. So some man with the marker just above, Z1828, probably migrated from Anatolia to Greece or Bulgaria with the spread of farming, and his descendants spread with the Neolithic and/or the Bronze Age.

Johnny ola
03-25-2021, 11:23 AM
The thing is, that whole branch is probably European, and native to just north of Greece. If you go back up the tree to Z18463 you have a TMRCA which is almost in the Neolithic. So some man with the marker just above, Z1828, probably migrated from Anatolia to Greece or Bulgaria with the spread of farming, and his descendants spread with the Neolithic and/or the Bronze Age.

Thank you for your help. Yeah, makes sense that it arrived from Anatolia.He Is Anatolian Greek Like me from The region of Chaldia(modern Gumushane).

J1 DYS388=13
03-25-2021, 11:31 AM
Thank you for your help. Yeah, makes sense that it arrived from Anatolia.He Is Anatolian Greek Like me from The region of Chaldia(modern Gumushane).

I didn't know that. So what do you think, your line came from Greece to Gümüşhane, or it has always been in the Gümüşhane area?

Johnny ola
03-25-2021, 11:34 AM
All people with This Specific surname coming From Northeast Anatolia. The point Is that There Are Gavras with different lineages/markers. I am G-M406-L14, I have seen guys being L-M317 and now i found out This guy being under This J1 clade.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gabras

J1 DYS388=13
03-25-2021, 11:42 AM
OK then, his J1 line came from Greece, or Byzantium maybe, in 1081.

Johnny ola
03-25-2021, 11:49 AM
OK then, his J1 line came from Greece, or Byzantium maybe, in 1081.

So you think it arrived in Gumushane via Greece instead from West Asia during Neolithic-Bronze Age?
Is there any possibility This lineage To arrived in Gumushane via a transcaucasus culture Like kura-araxes or maykop.. Or maybe With Something close To bronze Age Anatolia?

J1 DYS388=13
03-25-2021, 12:31 PM
No, I never see that type of J1 near the Caucasus or even in Anatolia. That type is the gold flowers on this map I don't maintain any more. https://www.google.com/maps/d/edit?mid=16Js5W1sSDUl_zXDd0CcDm6V3Q0M&usp=sharing

Johnny ola
03-25-2021, 12:56 PM
No, I never see that type of J1 near the Caucasus or even in Anatolia. That type is the gold flowers on this map I don't maintain any more. https://www.google.com/maps/d/edit?mid=16Js5W1sSDUl_zXDd0CcDm6V3Q0M&usp=sharing


I don't know what to believe anymore.This guy has the same surname with me,he lives in Peloponnese and his lineage seems weird for west asian standarts.You are prolly right that it might be connected with neolithic Europe.Anywaysss thanks a lot for your informations.Its the second time you helping me with J1.

Cheers!!!!

JoeyP37
03-25-2021, 01:06 PM
It seems to me that J1 can be split into two groups, those branches that descend from P58 and can be more closely linked with the Semitic languages, and the other branches which are more far-flung but still instructive about the origin place of the ancestral J1 tribes.

J1 DYS388=13
03-25-2021, 01:09 PM
That's a good way to look at J1. The authors of this paper may have done better just to analyse P58 and leave the northern J1 alone.

Jatt1
03-25-2021, 01:32 PM
It seems to me that J1 can be split into two groups, those branches that descend from P58 and can be more closely linked with the Semitic languages, and the other branches which are more far-flung but still instructive about the origin place of the ancestral J1 tribes.

J1-P58 is much older than Semitic languages, isn't it? https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-P58/

davit
03-25-2021, 01:52 PM
J1-P58 is much older than Semitic languages, isn't it? https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-P58/

Its origin yes but its spread might be closely linked to Semitic languages (not everywhere of course).

RCO
03-25-2021, 04:26 PM
We have several J1 branches associated with Indo-European languages and they are very old in their native regions, like our J1-FGC6064 different branches speaking Armenian, Gilaki, Persian for a long, long time.

Agamemnon
03-25-2021, 07:53 PM
One of the Makurian samples from Kulubnarti (I6257) was BY94, he's on the following map (https://www.google.com/maps/d/edit?mid=1yOAdOcVbdDR7UpkOvU_ZI7UbbHQAHK-G&usp=sharing) (look for the light green Kulubnarti sample in the list). It's likely this individual had a Greek ancestor along his paternal line at some point (could have arrived in NE Africa with the Macedonians).

davit
03-25-2021, 10:35 PM
We have several J1 branches associated with Indo-European languages and they are very old in their native regions, like our J1-FGC6064 different branches speaking Armenian, Gilaki, Persian for a long, long time.

J1 is not associated with IE.

RCO
03-26-2021, 02:03 AM
We can find J1 branches in every ancient Iranian and Indo-European populations in the core areas around the Caspian Sea, we have specific IE J1 types from Mongolia-Afanasievo to the Portuguese Reconquista in the Atlantic.