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leorcooper19
03-30-2021, 06:39 PM
Egypt is still one of the most under-tested populations relative to historical population size, but in the last year there are have dozens of Egyptian samples- both from private individuals and from studies- that have been added to YFull. In the spreadsheet below I have gathered all of the samples on the whole YTree and guessed about each one's origin. There is a total of 94 individuals spread over 80 different terminal SNPs.

It should be noted that this sample is not representative of actual frequencies, as projects focusing on particular subgroups often upload more kits than the average, thus oversampling some lineages. For example, currently J1 is the biggest haplogroup in the reference, but none of the samples from academic studies are in J1. Please rely on studies with larger and fairer sample sizes for gauging relative sizes of each haplogroup and subclade among Egyptians.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1vJNN8rrVOHa6x8QKTvH20DQGheS2M-d9Ge8XSheJe0E/edit?usp=sharing

Let me know if you disagree with any of my origin guesses; I'd be happy to change them if a good argument can be made.

bunduqdari
04-23-2021, 02:51 PM
Nice to see myself listed here :) "Origin West Asian; ultimately European; deeply diverged". Well not sure about West Asian, but generally I agree with your origin notes. What makes you assume west Asian for it?

The dominance of J1 and Arabian origin is curious. Others have made the same comment about the FTDNA Egypt group results that also show a dominance of J1. But without proper academic studies, we simply don't have enough data to go on with Egypt.
According to this map (https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Ev1-xySXYAA2t8K?format=jpg&name=900x900) that I recently stumbled on through twitter, Egypt is probably the least tested country in the entire MENA region.

lifeisdandy
04-23-2021, 03:21 PM
J1 is dominant here because most of the Egyptians who got tested are Egyptians of Arabian origin from tribes and are very interested in knowing their ydna.

bunduqdari
04-23-2021, 03:42 PM
I disagree. Egyptians are extremely poor and internet penetration is incredibly low in Egypt. These results are biased towards upper class city dwellers and diaspora Egyptians. No way are rural and tribal Egyptians paying $100 to $500 to get ancestry tests. They neither have the income to support something like that, nor do they have the education level to even understand what y-haplogroups are and how they may be important, nor do they sit around on the internet consuming media about genetics and ancestry. For the vast majority of Egyptians, this is completely outside their sphere of interest and understanding, and that's especially true for rural and tribal people.

leorcooper19
04-23-2021, 04:09 PM
Nice to see myself listed here :) "Origin West Asian; ultimately European; deeply diverged". Well not sure about West Asian, but generally I agree with your origin notes. What makes you assume west Asian for it?

Very cool! Thanks for reaching out.

I assumed West Asian because it is so deeply diverged and I doubt that it was a recent (as in, historical period) migration from Europe to Egypt. I-L596, your clade's parent, also has I-Y16419, which is c. 3900 ybp and mostly West Asian as well. That said, you certainly may have evidence to the contrary. Did you test at FTDNA? If so, do you have any matches at any level?


The dominance of J1 and Arabian origin is curious. Others have made the same comment about the FTDNA Egypt group results that also show a dominance of J1. But without proper academic studies, we simply don't have enough data to go on with Egypt.
According to this map (https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Ev1-xySXYAA2t8K?format=jpg&name=900x900) that I recently stumbled on through twitter, Egypt is probably the least tested country in the entire MENA region.

Right, as I said in my original post, we can tell that J1 is overrepresented here because none of the scientific samples (which I think we can assume were from a random sample) are in J1. Rather, we see a lot of E-M2, E-M35, and R-V88.

bunduqdari
04-23-2021, 04:21 PM
I assumed West Asian because it is so deeply diverged and I doubt that it was a recent (as in, historical period) migration from Europe to Egypt. That said, you certainly may have evidence to the contrary. Did you test at FTDNA? If so, do you have any matches at any level?

Yup tested with Ftdna and have no matches at any level. Though the public haplotrees has 1 match in Reunion Island. But since it's a hugely diverse island, i have no idea whether that's a French immigrant or Arab or anywhere else. I did, however, do a search on ysearch before it closed due to GDPR, and I found 1 match in Saudi and 1 in Iran. So all i know at the moment is that there are 4 matches: Egypt, Saudi, Iran, and Reunion Island. I really have no clue whether it's from a historical migration or neolithic or what, and that's my main goal to find out.




Right, as I said in my original post, we can tell that J1 is overrepresented here because none of the scientific samples (which I think we can assume were from a random sample) are in J1. Rather, we see a lot of E-M2, E-M35, and R-V88.

What scientific samples do you mean? I presume you can't tell from yfull which ones are from studies and which aren't, right?
Do you mean studies published in journal studies?

leorcooper19
04-23-2021, 04:51 PM
Yup tested with Ftdna and have no matches at any level. Though the public haplotrees has 1 match in Reunion Island. But since it's a hugely diverse island, i have no idea whether that's a French immigrant or Arab or anywhere else. I did, however, do a search on ysearch before it closed due to GDPR, and I found 1 match in Saudi and 1 in Iran. So all i know at the moment is that there are 4 matches: Egypt, Saudi, Iran, and Reunion Island. I really have no clue whether it's from a historical migration or neolithic or what, and that's my main goal to find out.

Very interesting. Seems like it probably is not recently European at all then.


What scientific samples do you mean? I presume you can't tell from yfull which ones are from studies and which aren't, right?
Do you mean studies published in journal studies?

In the spreadsheet, I have a column for the sample names. The samples with the YF prefix are private uploads to YFull, while samples with the ERS prefix are scientific samples from published papers.

Megalophias
04-23-2021, 05:02 PM
Right, as I said in my original post, we can tell that J1 is overrepresented here because none of the scientific samples (which I think we can assume were from a random sample) are in J1. Rather, we see a lot of E-M2, E-M35, and R-V88.
Academic samples of Egypt have been rather heavily tilted toward little oases in the Western Desert. But the ones on YF are AFAIK almost all from the D'Atanasio et al Green Sahara paper, which targeted specifically E-M78, E-M2, A-M13, and R1b-V88 - so not a random sampling.

leorcooper19
04-23-2021, 05:26 PM
Academic samples of Egypt have been rather heavily tilted toward little oases in the Western Desert. But the ones on YF are AFAIK almost all from the D'Atanasio et al Green Sahara paper, which targeted specifically E-M78, E-M2, A-M13, and R1b-V88 - so not a random sampling.

Thanks for the correction! Much appreciated.

bunduqdari
04-23-2021, 05:42 PM
Very interesting. Seems like it probably is not recently European at all then.

But if it was an ancient migration, then wouldn't we expect it to be far more predominant in the region? If there was some small neolithic or bronze age migration then I would expect it to be common in parts of the Middle East, but I-L596 is rare everywhere. Although all of the downstream subclades from mine are purely western European, I still expect to wake up one morning and find a direct Iranian or Anatolian match on yfull indicating a recent migration to the Arab region.




In the spreadsheet, I have a column for the sample names. The samples with the YF prefix are private uploads to YFull, while samples with the ERS prefix are scientific samples from published papers.

Ok I see, thanks for clarifying. But other studies have definitely shown a lot of J1 in Egypt. Bekada et al. (2013) (https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0056775) showed around 21% J1, making it the single largest group in Egypt. Haplogroup E as a whole was larger, but it is extremely divided:
E-M33 0.5%
E-P2 2.4%
E-M35 3.2%
E-M78 0.8%
E-V12 7%
E-V32 1.6%
E-V13 0.8%
E-V22 9.2%
E-V65 2.4%
E-M81 11.9%
E-M123 6.8%

The others were:

J2 6.8%
G 5.7%
R1b 5.9%
R1a 2.2%
T 6.2%
I 0.5%

If I recall correctly there are other studies as well that show J1 being common in Egypt. I'd have to dig them up. The only question is how common and when it dates to. Interestingly, the 2 clades of E often touted as being truly pharaonic, E-V22 and E-V12 aren't that common. Even R1b which is a proven lineage of pharaohs is only at 6% 5,000 years later. To me, at least, that's really surprising.

Edit: Forgot to mention that E-M81, which is a Berber marker only around 1,500 years old (https://www.researchgate.net/publication/321195015_Whole_Y-chromosome_sequences_reveal_an_extremely_recent_or igin_of_the_most_common_North_African_paternal_lin eage_E-M183_M81), is somehow at 12% in Egypt, much higher than the 2 clades touted as autocthonous Egyptian. It boggles the mind.

leorcooper19
04-23-2021, 07:10 PM
But if it was an ancient migration, then wouldn't we expect it to be far more predominant in the region? If there was some small neolithic or bronze age migration then I would expect it to be common in parts of the Middle East, but I-L596 is rare everywhere. Although all of the downstream subclades from mine are purely western European, I still expect to wake up one morning and find a direct Iranian or Anatolian match on yfull indicating a recent migration to the Arab region.

Not necessarily. The oldest AMH Y chromosomes in West Asia would be in C, D0, and F, and yet these are extremely tiny to non-existent in the region. G, T, and H were also much more common in West Asia once, but they too have declined significantly. In general, genetic drift and gene flow determines the size and spread of Y-DNA Haplogroups, with everything else (time in an area, for example) being smaller, contributing factors to the end result.

Again, even though we know that I-S6635 was in Europe by around 9300 ybp, with both your lineage and I-Y16649 being found almost entirely outside of Europe tells me that some branches of I-L596 migrated into West Asia into Europe during the Paleolithic.


Ok I see, thanks for clarifying. But other studies have definitely shown a lot of J1 in Egypt. Bekada et al. (2013) (https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0056775) showed around 21% J1, making it the single largest group in Egypt. Haplogroup E as a whole was larger, but it is extremely divided:

If I recall correctly there are other studies as well that show J1 being common in Egypt. I'd have to dig them up. The only question is how common and when it dates to. Interestingly, the 2 clades of E often touted as being truly pharaonic, E-V22 and E-V12 aren't that common. Even R1b which is a proven lineage of pharaohs is only at 6% 5,000 years later. To me, at least, that's really surprising.

Edit: Forgot to mention that E-M81, which is a Berber marker only around 1,500 years old (https://www.researchgate.net/publication/321195015_Whole_Y-chromosome_sequences_reveal_an_extremely_recent_or igin_of_the_most_common_North_African_paternal_lin eage_E-M183_M81), is somehow at 12% in Egypt, much higher than the 2 clades touted as autocthonous Egyptian. It boggles the mind.

Normally I would think a n=370 sample size is good enough, it just may not be in this case; I can't imagine how 12% E-M81 would work anywhere in Egypt except maybe the northwest. Either way, there's no question that J1 is indeed a significant haplogroup among Egyptians, it's just not as common as YFull would imply. E-V12 and E-V22's sizes are probably a bit bigger than those rates, but it is clear that there has been significant Y-DNA replacement in Egypt throughout the historical period.

bunduqdari
04-23-2021, 08:25 PM
Not necessarily. The oldest AMH Y chromosomes in West Asia would be in C, D0, and F, and yet these are extremely tiny to non-existent in the region. G, T, and H were also much more common in West Asia once, but they too have declined significantly. In general, genetic drift and gene flow determines the size and spread of Y-DNA Haplogroups, with everything else (time in an area, for example) being smaller, contributing factors to the end result.

Again, even though we know that I-S6635 was in Europe by around 9300 ybp, with both your lineage and I-Y16649 being found almost entirely outside of Europe tells me that some branches of I-L596 migrated into West Asia into Europe during the Paleolithic.

Good points all. I guess I can't do anything else at this point except wait for more matches to be found.




Normally I would think a n=370 sample size is good enough, it just may not be in this case; I can't imagine how 12% E-M81 would work anywhere in Egypt except maybe the northwest. Either way, there's no question that J1 is indeed a significant haplogroup among Egyptians, it's just not as common as YFull would imply. E-V12 and E-V22's sizes are probably a bit bigger than those rates, but it is clear that there has been significant Y-DNA replacement in Egypt throughout the historical period.

Agreed. There are no studies on Egypt like there are for Algeria or Tunisia or Saudi. I'm eagerly waiting for someone to extract some dna from some Old Kingdom mummies, and also for a proper nation-wide population-weighted study of modern Egyptians. I don't remember the methodology of that Bekada paper anymore, but 12% E-M81, a group that's only 1,500 years old. It just makes no sense. If I had to guess I'd imagine that they weighted the provinces incorrectly and Siwa oasis came out with a high majority of E-M81 that skewed the total results. Or something like that.

Lupriac
05-09-2021, 08:09 PM
[Delete]

lifeisdandy
05-09-2021, 09:04 PM
I disagree. Egyptians are extremely poor and internet penetration is incredibly low in Egypt. These results are biased towards upper class city dwellers and diaspora Egyptians. No way are rural and tribal Egyptians paying $100 to $500 to get ancestry tests. They neither have the income to support something like that, nor do they have the education level to even understand what y-haplogroups are and how they may be important, nor do they sit around on the internet consuming media about genetics and ancestry. For the vast majority of Egyptians, this is completely outside their sphere of interest and understanding, and that's especially true for rural and tribal people.

If you go to the egypt ftdna project most of the names are of those who are from Arabian tribes and mostly j1. Tribal doesn't mean poor.

SilkRoad
05-10-2021, 04:26 PM
If you go to the egypt ftdna project most of the names are of those who are from Arabian tribes and mostly j1. Tribal doesn't mean poor.

Indeed true , and Gulf states pay them bigY tests so they get free Y test just because of that.

lifeisdandy
05-12-2021, 12:36 AM
Indeed true , and Gulf states pay them bigY tests so they get free Y test just because of that.

Bingo

bunduqdari
05-24-2021, 04:10 PM
If you go to the egypt ftdna project most of the names are of those who are from Arabian tribes and mostly j1. Tribal doesn't mean poor.

Well this is categorically and demonstrably false. I'm listed in the Egypt FTDNA project myself.

If this is your claim, then feel free to go into the group and list here all the tribal names so that we can establish whether "most of the names are those of Arabian tribes."
Besides that, Arabian tribe names are common in Egypt, so I don't know on what basis you intend to discount them when they appear.



Indeed true , and Gulf states pay them bigY tests so they get free Y test just because of that.

Do you have any evidence of this whatsoever or is this simply a racist stereotype of rich Gulf Arabs?

lifeisdandy
05-24-2021, 07:14 PM
Well this is categorically and demonstrably false. I'm listed in the Egypt FTDNA project myself.

If this is your claim, then feel free to go into the group and list here all the tribal names so that we can establish whether "most of the names are those of Arabian tribes."
Besides that, Arabian tribe names are common in Egypt, so I don't know on what basis you intend to discount them when they appear.




Do you have any evidence of this whatsoever or is this simply a racist stereotype of rich Gulf Arabs?
Of course I can...do you think I'm stupid?

Al wasli
Al huweiti
Tarabin
Banu shaheen
Al ogbi
Al sawarka
Al turaifi
Al atawla
Look in my attachment. All these j1 Egyptians in there are from Arabian tribes!!!44792

bunduqdari
05-24-2021, 08:32 PM
First of all, you listed 8 names out of the entire Egyptian FTDNA group. How on earth is that most of the names?? I mean clearly you haven't proven your statement at all.

Second, the single Howeiti guy is haplogroup B, not J. And there are several Al-Oqbis in the list. Two of them are haplogroup E and 1 is haplogroup T. 2 are J1 and one is J2. So hardly an explanation for the dominance of J1 in this list.

Third, Al-Turaifi isn't a tribe. Turaif is a village in Palestine, but the surname itself doesn't indicate any single tribe. It's a surname based on a place, like Hegazy or Najdi or Basyouni or Tantawy, which are all common surnames in Egypt. People with the surname Turaifi are most likely descended from immigrants from Palestine. The same is probably true of Al-Wasli. There are many places named Al-Wasly across the Middle East, and there's no Banu Wasl.

Also FYI, Al-Atawla refers to a village called عرب الأطاولة in southern Egypt. (Ie: Arabs of Al-Atawla). This formula is very common throughout Egypt, but especially in the Nile Delta were there are dozens of villages named "Arabs of..." Some examples of villages with those names:

نزلة عرب جهينة
عرب الغديري
عرب الرواشدة
عرب العيايدة
عرب العليقاط
كفر العرب
عرب الشعارة
عرب الحصن
عرب الرمل
عرب أبو ذكري
عرب درويش
عرب الحمامشة
عرب الشقاروة
عرب الحصوة
عرب مقابلة

All of these villages are named "Arabs of xyz" and none of them appear in the Egypt FTDNA group, except for Rawashda which refers to Al-Rashid.

So I count 70 Egyptians in the J1 list, ignoring the rest of the list for now. Of those I count 35 with tribal names, including Al-Wasli and Al-Ogby just to make you happy even though they're not really tribal names. There are 16 Al-Wasli samples in the list, so they make a huge difference. Again, there's no Wasly tribe, it's just a family name and they may or may not claim a tribal origin. An actual tribal name is Tarabeen, Howeitat, Al-Rashidi - ie: actual tribes. Names like Quraishi are not tribal names, they simply indicate Arab origin, which is absolutely typical in Egypt.

So clearly the majority of the people in the Egypt FTDNA group are not tribal. There are some tribal names, which is exactly what you would expect given Egypt's demographics. Most people with tribal surnames in Egypt don't even know they're tribal names.

lifeisdandy
05-24-2021, 09:55 PM
First of all, you listed 8 names out of the entire Egyptian FTDNA group. How on earth is that most of the names?? I mean clearly you haven't proven your statement at all.

Second, the single Howeiti guy is haplogroup B, not J. And there are several Al-Oqbis in the list. Two of them are haplogroup E and 1 is haplogroup T. 2 are J1 and one is J2. So hardly an explanation for the dominance of J1 in this list.

Third, Al-Turaifi isn't a tribe. Turaif is a village in Palestine, but the surname itself doesn't indicate any single tribe. It's a surname based on a place, like Hegazy or Najdi or Basyouni or Tantawy, which are all common surnames in Egypt. People with the surname Turaifi are most likely descended from immigrants from Palestine. The same is probably true of Al-Wasli. There are many places named Al-Wasly across the Middle East, and there's no Banu Wasl.

Also FYI, Al-Atawla refers to a village called عرب الأطاولة in southern Egypt. (Ie: Arabs of Al-Atawla). This formula is very common throughout Egypt, but especially in the Nile Delta were there are dozens of villages named "Arabs of..." Some examples of villages with those names:

نزلة عرب جهينة
عرب الغديري
عرب الرواشدة
عرب العيايدة
عرب العليقاط
كفر العرب
عرب الشعارة
عرب الحصن
عرب الرمل
عرب أبو ذكري
عرب درويش
عرب الحمامشة
عرب الشقاروة
عرب الحصوة
عرب مقابلة

All of these villages are named "Arabs of xyz" and none of them appear in the Egypt FTDNA group, except for Rawashda which refers to Al-Rashid.

So I count 70 Egyptians in the J1 list, ignoring the rest of the list for now. Of those I count 35 with tribal names, including Al-Wasli and Al-Ogby just to make you happy even though they're not really tribal names. There are 16 Al-Wasli samples in the list, so they make a huge difference. Again, there's no Wasly tribe, it's just a family name and they may or may not claim a tribal origin. An actual tribal name is Tarabeen, Howeitat, Al-Rashidi - ie: actual tribes. Names like Quraishi are not tribal names, they simply indicate Arab origin, which is absolutely typical in Egypt.

So clearly the majority of the people in the Egypt FTDNA group are not tribal. There are some tribal names, which is exactly what you would expect given Egypt's demographics. Most people with tribal surnames in Egypt don't even know they're tribal names.

Ok so what's your point? That most Egyptians are j1?

bunduqdari
05-24-2021, 10:50 PM
My point, as I've stated previously in this thread is that the Egypt FTDNA group is not skewed towards tribal or rural people in Egypt. As for J1, it's either the single largest haplogroup in Egypt, or possibly the 2nd largest. The only question is how big it is, and it's mildly interesting that the Egypt FTDNA group differs from published studies, none of which seem very reliable.

lifeisdandy
05-25-2021, 12:29 AM
My point, as I've stated previously in this thread is that the Egypt FTDNA group is not skewed towards tribal or rural people in Egypt. As for J1, it's either the single largest haplogroup in Egypt, or possibly the 2nd largest. The only question is how big it is, and it's mildly interesting that the Egypt FTDNA group differs from published studies, none of which seem very reliable.

Most studies show E being the most found in Egypt.

bunduqdari
05-25-2021, 09:10 AM
Yes haplogroup E in its entirety is the largest, as I stated in one of my first responses, but J1 is a sub-branch, not the entire haplogroup. E is hugely diverse in comparison to J1. All the J1 in Egypt comes from Arabia and the Levant. Some clades of E are more Levantine/Arabian, and others are more Ethiopian and others are Somali, and others are linked to Berbers, and others are linked to sub-Saharan Africa. For example, the Bekada paper from 2013 that I mentioned earlier showed 21% J1 and haplogroup E was broken down into:

E-M33 0.5%
E-P2 2.4%
E-M35 3.2%
E-M78 0.8%
E-V12 7%
E-V32 1.6%
E-V13 0.8%
E-V22 9.2%
E-V65 2.4%
E-M81 11.9%
E-M123 6.8%

The others were:

J2 6.8%
G 5.7%
R1b 5.9%
R1a 2.2%
T 6.2%
I 0.5%

So the subclades of haplogroup E listed here indicate a really wide variety of origins and no single clade is as large as J1. Would be interesting to group the subclades of E according to the likely point of origin and organize them like that, which I guess is what the OP in this thread was trying to do with the google docs here:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1vJNN8rrVOHa6x8QKTvH20DQGheS2M-d9Ge8XSheJe0E/edit#gid=0

It illustrates clearly the diverse origins of the various E subclades in comparison with J1

jesus
05-25-2021, 09:43 AM
Indeed true , and Gulf states pay them bigY tests so they get free Y test just because of that.

I wouldn’t say states, more like gulf individuals with a passion for DNA testing. Many are interested in finding their tribal cousins.

bunduqdari
05-25-2021, 09:53 AM
I wouldn’t say states, more like gulf individuals with a passion for DNA testing. Many are interested in finding their tribal cousins.

Thinking that some rich Saudi guys are paying people in Egypt with the surname Tarabeen or Al-Atawla shows complete ignorance of how Arab tribes and clans work, and is nothing more than a racist stereotype of rich Gulf Arabs.

jesus
05-25-2021, 10:21 AM
Thinking that some rich Saudi guys are paying people in Egypt with the surname Tarabeen or Al-Atawla shows complete ignorance of how Arab tribes and clans work, and is nothing more than a racist stereotype of rich Gulf Arabs.

Guess I’m racist towards myself :angel:

bunduqdari
05-25-2021, 10:37 AM
Ok pal

lifeisdandy
05-25-2021, 12:09 PM
Yes haplogroup E in its entirety is the largest, as I stated in one of my first responses, but J1 is a sub-branch, not the entire haplogroup. E is hugely diverse in comparison to J1. All the J1 in Egypt comes from Arabia and the Levant. Some clades of E are more Levantine/Arabian, and others are more Ethiopian and others are Somali, and others are linked to Berbers, and others are linked to sub-Saharan Africa. For example, the Bekada paper from 2013 that I mentioned earlier showed 21% J1 and haplogroup E was broken down into:

E-M33 0.5%
E-P2 2.4%
E-M35 3.2%
E-M78 0.8%
E-V12 7%
E-V32 1.6%
E-V13 0.8%
E-V22 9.2%
E-V65 2.4%
E-M81 11.9%
E-M123 6.8%

The others were:

J2 6.8%
G 5.7%
R1b 5.9%
R1a 2.2%
T 6.2%
I 0.5%

So the subclades of haplogroup E listed here indicate a really wide variety of origins and no single clade is as large as J1. Would be interesting to group the subclades of E according to the likely point of origin and organize them like that, which I guess is what the OP in this thread was trying to do with the google docs here:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1vJNN8rrVOHa6x8QKTvH20DQGheS2M-d9Ge8XSheJe0E/edit#gid=0

It illustrates clearly the diverse origins of the various E subclades in comparison with J1
Ok so you're saying j1 in Egypt came from Arabia or the Levant?

bunduqdari
05-25-2021, 12:50 PM
Ok so you're saying j1 in Egypt came from Arabia or the Levant?

Yes, there are now many studies that outline the trajectory of J1 and J2. They seem to originate in northern Iran and the Caucasus, and then both migrate southwards in the late Bronze Age when Egypt's Dynastic period was starting and when the Sumerian civilization was already under way. They avoided the new kingdoms in Egypt and Sumer and headed straight down from the Levant to Yemen and then crossed over to Ethiopia.

For example, this paper (https://www.researchgate.net/publication/318741481_Continuity_and_Admixture_in_the_Last_Fiv e_Millennia_of_Levantine_History_from_Ancient_Cana anite_and_Present-Day_Lebanese_Genome_Sequences) by Haber et al from 2017 confirms the migration from the Caucasus in around 3,000 BCE, which is when Sumerian civilization and Egypt's proto-dynastic / early dynastic periods were already underway. This is probably why the Sumerian language was a language isolate and not Semitic.

That study supports this one (https://www.nature.com/articles/nature19310) by Lazaridis et al from 2016 which didn't find any haplogroup J in Neolithic Levantine samples - only in northern Iran from the late Neolithic. It also states that: "...Y chromosome analysis showing that the Natufians and successor Levantine Neolithic populations carried haplogroup E", and they state in the supplementary information that no haplogroup J has been found in Natufian or pre-pottery Levantine samples.

And this study (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6906521/) by Molinaro et al from 2019 of Ethiopians states that Eurasians moved to Ethiopia around 3,000 years ago, so 1,000 BC.

And finally, this study (https://www.researchgate.net/publication/319279989_Northeast_African_genomic_variation_shap ed_by_the_continuity_of_indigenous_groups_and_Eura sian_migrations) of Sudan by Hollfelder from 2017 dates the period of Arab migration to Sudan to 700 years ago, after the fall of the Kingdom of Dongola in 1315 CE. They argue that prior to this, most Sudanese were genetically more similar to modern south Sudanese groups, which would explain Pharaonic Egyptian depictions of people they encountered in Nubia.

So we have quite a strong understanding of the trajectory of haplogroup J, and J1 in particular. And it seems that J1 began to enter Egypt in the Pharaonic period, perhaps during the Middle Kingdom with increasing migration from the Neart East, but definitely it would've been present with the Hyksos, and then later again with the Arab invasion.

David Bush
05-25-2021, 01:46 PM
Yes, there are now many studies that outline the trajectory of J1 and J2. They seem to originate in northern Iran and the Caucasus, and then both migrate southwards in the late Bronze Age when Egypt's Dynastic period was starting and when the Sumerian civilization was already under way. They avoided the new kingdoms in Egypt and Sumer and headed straight down from the Levant to Yemen and then crossed over to Ethiopia.

For example, this paper (https://www.researchgate.net/publication/318741481_Continuity_and_Admixture_in_the_Last_Fiv e_Millennia_of_Levantine_History_from_Ancient_Cana anite_and_Present-Day_Lebanese_Genome_Sequences) by Haber et al from 2017 confirms the migration from the Caucasus in around 3,000 BCE, which is when Sumerian civilization and Egypt's proto-dynastic / early dynastic periods were already underway. This is probably why the Sumerian language was a language isolate and not Semitic.

That study supports this one (https://www.nature.com/articles/nature19310) by Lazaridis et al from 2016 which didn't find any haplogroup J in Neolithic Levantine samples - only in northern Iran from the late Neolithic. It also states that: "...Y chromosome analysis showing that the Natufians and successor Levantine Neolithic populations carried haplogroup E", and they state in the supplementary information that no haplogroup J has been found in Natufian or pre-pottery Levantine samples.

And this study (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6906521/) by Molinaro et al from 2019 of Ethiopians states that Eurasians moved to Ethiopia around 3,000 years ago, so 1,000 BC.

And finally, this study (https://www.researchgate.net/publication/319279989_Northeast_African_genomic_variation_shap ed_by_the_continuity_of_indigenous_groups_and_Eura sian_migrations) of Sudan by Hollfelder from 2017 dates the period of Arab migration to Sudan to 700 years ago, after the fall of the Kingdom of Dongola in 1315 CE. They argue that prior to this, most Sudanese were genetically more similar to modern south Sudanese groups, which would explain Pharaonic Egyptian depictions of people they encountered in Nubia.

So we have quite a strong understanding of the trajectory of haplogroup J, and J1 in particular. And it seems that J1 began to enter Egypt in the Pharaonic period, perhaps during the Middle Kingdom with increasing migration from the Neart East, but definitely it would've been present with the Hyksos, and then later again with the Arab invasion.
Not all Natufians as well as Neolithic Levant have been studied
And some of Lazaridis samples were unsuitable and were discarded
Also, Fernandez et al 2014 Neolithic samples from Syria were reported to be of only mtdna
According to Sahakyan et al 2021
J1-p58 originated in the Levant or Iraq or the Arabian Peninsula
In some modern samples of Mehri in Yemen, the Natufians or Levantine component of Neolithic is very high.
Even some samples lack the ancient Iranian and Caucasian components
Mehri are mostly carriers of J1-L93 and have an isolated population and their language is old and close to Akkadian language.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mehri_people

Therefore, the possibility of finding Neolithic samples of J1 in Arab countries is not unexpected

bunduqdari
05-25-2021, 03:38 PM
Hmm, interesting paper, hadn't seen it before.
It is basically arguing that J1-M267 evolved in the Caucasus and Armenia, and that J1-P58 evolved roughly in Jordan 9,500 years ago.
It seems a bit speculative, though. The authors acknowledge what i said earlier: "Haplogroup J1a1a1-P58 in ancient populations was found only in the Bronze Age Levant22,46,61. It is worth to note that the aDNA studies lack samples from the Arabian Peninsula and Mesopotamia, leaving us with only a few male samples of the appropriate age from the southern regions of West Asia." They're correct that we have no ancient Arabian samples yet. So time will tell.

They also note that they haven't found any deeply diverging samples of J1 from Egypt. That would support this study (https://www.researchgate.net/publication/344270044_Population_data_and_genetic_diversity_an alysis_of_17_Y-STR_loci_in_Saudi_population#pfa) by Kassab et al from 2020 that found the closest samples to Saudi Arabia were in southern Egypt (Qena), followed by Iraq. And Bahrain, Jordan, and UAE being the most distant to Saudi. That indicates that the southern Egyptian samples are more recently diverged from the Saudis and contradicts their conclusion that the spread of Islam did not affect the spread of J1.

Another issue I have with this proposal is that I once saw a map of the J1 presence in Saudi Arabia. I can't find it now and never saved it. But it showed a straight line of J1 running from northern Syria down the middle of Saudi Arabia and into Yemen. The coasts of Arabia had much less J1 in comparison, as did the coast of the Levant. If J1-P58 originated in northern Saudi or the Levant 9 thousand years ago, you wouldn't expect there to be such a distinct pattern to its location today. Also, the spread of the Afro-Asiatic language family makes more sense if we are talking about haplogroup E people migrating into the Levant and Arabia from Egypt. If J1-P58 originated 9,500 years ago in Jordan, then how and why did they pick up an Afro-Asiatic language and then later Semitic? The current theories of Proto-Semitic originating in the Levant around 3500-4000 BCE and spreading southwards ties in nicely with the narrative i set out previously of the spread of J1.

Do you have a source on the Mehri J1-L93 and the high Natufian component?

David Bush
05-26-2021, 09:05 AM
Do you have a source on the Mehri J1-L93 and the high Natufian component?
i said: Mehri are mostly carriers of J1-L93
https://www.familytreedna.com/public/J1-L93?iframe=yresults
https://twitter.com/mahra_dna
And some are J2b
https://www.familytreedna.com/public/J2M102Arab?iframe=yresults

https://i.ibb.co/g44Ttcz/1.jpg
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1002/ajpa.23312
https://i.ibb.co/5WVxg3K/4.png

leorcooper19
05-26-2021, 01:31 PM
Talk of "J1" and even "J1-P58" leaves out much of the story. Looking at https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-P58/ , you can clearly see that almost every single sample from the Arabian Peninsula is within a 4000 to 5000 year old subclade, which are present at several places in the phylogeny. Others are even younger. See:
- https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-ZS5383/
- https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-BY111/
- https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-L860/
- https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y136125/
- https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-ZS6178/
- https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-FGC4745/
- https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z640/
- https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y2919/
- https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-FGC11/

These subclades (mostly the last three, which are subclades of J-Z1884) are entirely responsible for why J1 has been conflated with southern Arabians. All of these clades date to the Bronze Age or younger, while J1 and J1-P58 date to 18300 ybp and 9100 ybp respectively. J-P58 itself was very likely still up in northern Mesopotamia and environs at its TMRCA, and particular downstream subclades are associated with the arrival of Iranian Chalcolithic-like ancestry in the southwest, the coastal and inland Levant. The clades then later diversified in the Levant (both coastal and inland areas) before then migrating south into the peninsula. This is already demonstrated well by ancient DNA. See:
- https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-MF35937/ - ancient from Alalakh, Turkey, c. 3400 ybp
- https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z1884/ - ancient from Alalakh, Turkey, c. 3600 ybp
- https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y2919/ - two ancients from Baq'ah, Jordan, c. 3300 ybp
- https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-FGC11/ - ancient from Sidon, Lebanon, c. 3700 ybp

Most of Egyptian J1 is within these Bronze Age subclades, but not all, as forum member lifeisdandy can attest to. What's more is that not all J1 in Egypt is going to be Arabian or Levantine. https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-BY94/ for example was found among the 6th century Kulubnarti Nubians, likely a Greek clade that came proximately from Egypt.

Regarding the high scores of Natufian for Yemenis, I would like to point out that our Natufian reference is based off two relatively poor samples that were likely only one small part of the greater Neolithic Levant-Ancient North African (ANA) cline, which definitely included Egyptians but may have also included inhabitants of Arabia before Semitic speakers arrived. We will simply have to wait until we have relevant samples from Egypt, Sudan, the Horn, and Arabia to have an idea of the relative sizes of these components.

David Bush
05-26-2021, 01:44 PM
Hmm, interesting paper, hadn't seen it before.
It is basically arguing that J1-M267 evolved in the Caucasus and Armenia, and that J1-P58 evolved roughly in Jordan 9,500 years ago.
It seems a bit speculative, though. The authors acknowledge what i said earlier: "Haplogroup J1a1a1-P58 in ancient populations was found only in the Bronze Age Levant22,46,61. It is worth to note that the aDNA studies lack samples from the Arabian Peninsula and Mesopotamia, leaving us with only a few male samples of the appropriate age from the southern regions of West Asia." They're correct that we have no ancient Arabian samples yet. So time will tell.

They also note that they haven't found any deeply diverging samples of J1 from Egypt. That would support this study (https://www.researchgate.net/publication/344270044_Population_data_and_genetic_diversity_an alysis_of_17_Y-STR_loci_in_Saudi_population#pfa) by Kassab et al from 2020 that found the closest samples to Saudi Arabia were in southern Egypt (Qena), followed by Iraq. And Bahrain, Jordan, and UAE being the most distant to Saudi. That indicates that the southern Egyptian samples are more recently diverged from the Saudis and contradicts their conclusion that the spread of Islam did not affect the spread of J1.

Another issue I have with this proposal is that I once saw a map of the J1 presence in Saudi Arabia. I can't find it now and never saved it. But it showed a straight line of J1 running from northern Syria down the middle of Saudi Arabia and into Yemen. The coasts of Arabia had much less J1 in comparison, as did the coast of the Levant. If J1-P58 originated in northern Saudi or the Levant 9 thousand years ago, you wouldn't expect there to be such a distinct pattern to its location today. Also, the spread of the Afro-Asiatic language family makes more sense if we are talking about haplogroup E people migrating into the Levant and Arabia from Egypt. If J1-P58 originated 9,500 years ago in Jordan, then how and why did they pick up an Afro-Asiatic language and then later Semitic? The current theories of Proto-Semitic originating in the Levant around 3500-4000 BCE and spreading southwards ties in nicely with the narrative i set out previously of the spread of J1.

Do you have a source on the Mehri J1-L93 and the high Natufian component?

Consider the existence of J-56 in the south of the Arabian Peninsula

https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-P56/

Riverman
05-29-2021, 01:36 PM
Are the handful of E-V13 Egyptians related to Greek subclades? Anything known? Or are they geographically concentrated, like around Alexandria?

leorcooper19
05-29-2021, 09:24 PM
Are the handful of E-V13 Egyptians related to Greek subclades? Anything known? Or are they geographically concentrated, like around Alexandria?

No E-V13 Egyptians are known on YFull. That said, Cruciani et al. 2007 did find one Egyptian from the Delta in E-V13 (n=72). So, that suggests it's present, but like so many Egyptian subclades we'll have to wait for more testing and samples to know more.

altvred
05-30-2021, 07:25 AM
Are the handful of E-V13 Egyptians related to Greek subclades? Anything known? Or are they geographically concentrated, like around Alexandria?

Obviously, it would depend on the particular subclade of E-V13 these Egyptians would belong to but frankly, I don't feel that there's such a strong correlation between V13 and Hellenistic period Greek settlements as some people would suggest. Apologies if I misinterpreted your post and you implied something else.

We recently had a Scythian sample from Central Asia that some theorized was a byproduct of Alexander's conquest in Bactria but his particular subclade doesn't appear to be even strongly associated with the Balkans (https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?6496-Map-of-ancient-E-samples&p=763037&viewfull=1#post763037) let alone Greece.

Also, V13 or other haplogroups common in the Balkans could have just as easily arrived in Egypt in the last 300-400 years during Ottoman rule. I'm sure there wasn't a shortage of Ottoman military and civil officials who were ethnic Albanians, Greeks, or South Slavs in Egypt at some point. Muhammad Ali (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_Ali_of_Egypt) is the first example that comes to mind.

bunduqdari
05-30-2021, 10:19 AM
Also, V13 or other haplogroups common in the Balkans could have just as easily arrived in Egypt in the last 300-400 years during Ottoman rule. I'm sure there wasn't a shortage of Ottoman military and civil officials who were ethnic Albanians, Greeks, or South Slavs in Egypt at some point. Muhammad Ali (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_Ali_of_Egypt) is the first example that comes to mind.

Not only is there a legacy from the late Mamluk period of taking Balkan boys into the Mamluk army in Egypt, and not only is there a legacy of Albanians in Egypt (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanians_in_Egypt) during the Muhammad Ali era, but there is also a legacy in Egypt of large Circassian and Bosnian migration during the conflicts with Russia in the last 200-300 years. There are plenty of celebrities in Egypt with full or partial Circassian ancestry. For example, one of Egypt's most famous poets, Ahmad Shawqi (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahmed_Shawqi), was part Circassian. And our very own Regis Philbin lookalike Mustapha Fahmy (https://www.famousbirthdays.com/faces/fahmy-hussein-image.jpg) is a current celebrity of Circassian origin. There's also the very prominent and wealthy Abaza family (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abaza_family). There's also a relatively famous rebel Aziz Al-Misri (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aziz_Ali_al-Misri), who was an Arab nationalist and fought in the Arab Revolt (that was Hollywoodized in the movie Lawrence of Arabia).

Egypt's demographic history is super complex


Edit: I also wanted to add something unrelated simply because it's a cool historical fact - there's a very common surname in Egypt: Morsi / Morsy. It apparently refers to Murcia in Spain. Supposedly many Murcians fled the Spanish Inquisition and moved to Egypt, where they took the surname Al-Morsi, ie: the Murcian.

Riverman
05-30-2021, 12:51 PM
Obviously, it would depend on the particular subclade of E-V13 these Egyptians would belong to but frankly, I don't feel that there's such a strong correlation between V13 and Hellenistic period Greek settlements as some people would suggest. Apologies if I misinterpreted your post and you implied something else.

We recently had a Scythian sample from Central Asia that some theorized was a byproduct of Alexander's conquest in Bactria but his particular subclade doesn't appear to be even strongly associated with the Balkans (https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?6496-Map-of-ancient-E-samples&p=763037&viewfull=1#post763037) let alone Greece.

Also, V13 or other haplogroups common in the Balkans could have just as easily arrived in Egypt in the last 300-400 years during Ottoman rule. I'm sure there wasn't a shortage of Ottoman military and civil officials who were ethnic Albanians, Greeks, or South Slavs in Egypt at some point. Muhammad Ali (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_Ali_of_Egypt) is the first example that comes to mind.

Thank you, I can just agree. I just wanted to suggest one possible path how E-V13 could have arrived in Egypt in such low, but still stable and signficant numbers. I'm fully aware of the fact that there are many ways it could have arrived there, not just one. Probably the local E-V13 carriers have completely different ethnic origins, not just a single one. It really depends on the subclades, just like you said.

I also think there are more than one pathways of E-V13 into Greece by the way. But the story is extremely complicated, even down to every major subclade as you know. Because even if one finds an ancient DNA sample pointing to the North, the same might be found in the same time span in the South as well and so on. But that's why it would be interesting IF some subclades of E-V13 would have arrived in Egypt in Hellenistic times, because this would have some implications even on a more global scale.

The Saite
05-30-2021, 04:51 PM
Egypt is still one of the most under-tested populations relative to historical population size.. Let me know if you disagree with any of my origin guesses; I'd be happy to change them if a good argument can be made.

Actually, it's still quite early to draw conclusions regarding the Egyptian Y-Full clades origins specially for those non E1b1b-J1 horizon for the huge lack of general Egyptian samples around there, one should be cautious while dealing with them, tho having an idea is fine.



Normally I would think a n=370 sample size is good enough, it just may not be in this case; I can't imagine how 12% E-M81 would work anywhere in Egypt except maybe the northwest.

Disagree, A 370 samples isn't a good number, regardless not only the size is an issue but yet again the sampling location is an issue and it's a "serious one" here as Megalophias noted. The Bekada study is based mainly on 3 Studies: Luis 2004 (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1182266/) (Egypto-Berbers), Sipai 2009 (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3842387/?fbclid=IwAR2r9-2d7GrY5DVaUIcoVtoGi4GYE5tbywv7iN6cdSc8ajOQQvFgLZ5g b4k#!po=5.00000) (Cairo Egyptians), Kujanuva 2009 (https://www.researchgate.net/publication/24410992_Near_Eastern_Neolithic_Genetic_Input_in_a _Small_Oasis_of_the_Egyptian_Western_Desert) (West desert Egyptians). So there is no well represented Upper Egyptians, as so Lower Egyptians and there is no Egyptian Copts at all. Just Cairo-west desert inhabitant hybrid samples and you already noticed the High E-M81 (which is usually a plain 0% in multiple Nile-valley representing studies; EX: Reguiro 2015, Sipai 2009, etc). The reason people uses Bekada is just Wikipedia as there is someone that put it as if it was representing on Egyptians there. Not only that, the same man had put the previous highlighted studies (same samples as Bekada) in wiki as if they are independent from Bekada, so the reader's mind get coined with such results as Egypt's representative. Without mentioning those FT-DNA and YFull Arabian funded Egyptian samples which mostly came from Bedouin recent migrated tribes in the country (last 300 to 500 years), that is interesting certain Gulf Arabs to fund. And that's well known actually as LifeISandy said, the Egyptian man testing those individuals with Saudi-Kuwaiti help is a personal friend to me and he already stated it at multiple interested social media groups.

Now for the Egyptian Y-DNA data guide studies (857 Samples):

Lower Egypt (Delta and Alexandria) - 162 samples
Luccotte and Mercier through Kieta 2005 (https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1002/ajhb.20428?fbclid=IwAR3YtpJmhXiB-f2r4wJqgfl6BO6z35Ps60adL6P4udw6AQPL4Ve8a9rvejc)

E1b1b = 64% (Haplotype V, XI = M215/M35)
J1 = 10.3%
J2 = 8.6%
R1b = 6.8%

Upper Egypt - 66 samples
E1b1 = 80.3%
J1 = 2.2%
J2 = 2.2%
R1b = 6.1%

Cairo Egyptians - 110 samples
Sibai through Fadhloui-Zid 2013 (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3842387/?fbclid=IwAR2r9-2d7GrY5DVaUIcoVtoGi4GYE5tbywv7iN6cdSc8ajOQQvFgLZ5g b4k#!po=5.00000)

E1b1 = 48%
M78 = 36%
M123 = 8.4%
M2 = 3.7%

J = 26%
G-M201 = 7.5%
R1b = 8.4%
T-L206 = 4.2%

Delta Egypt - 52 samples
Lucotte through Keita 2005 (https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1002/ajhb.20428?fbclid=IwAR3YtpJmhXiB-f2r4wJqgfl6BO6z35Ps60adL6P4udw6AQPL4Ve8a9rvejc)

E1b1 = 69.3%
J1-M267 = 7.7%
J2-M172 = 9.6%
R1b = 1.9%

Cairo Egyptians - 63 samples
Manni 2002 (https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/12495079/)

E = 48%
J1 + J2 = 35%
F (×J) = 14%
A = 1.5%

Upper Egypt - 126 Samples
Cruciani 2007 (https://www.researchgate.net/publication/6456300_Tracing_Past_Human_Male_Movements_in_North ernEastern_Africa_and_Western_Eurasia_New_Clues_fr om_Y-Chromosomal_Haplogroups_E-M78_and_J-M12) + Trombetta 2015 (https://academic.oup.com/gbe/article/7/7/1940/631621?fbclid=IwAR0ig2hSn12qexrdT-2BbkimZ-NsvMT4vfy-SbJC_O1PTJPNN6gO5IH5f0Q)

E1b1 = 63%
M78 = 61%
M123 = 2%
Rest is Ambiguous

Egyptian Copts of upper Egypt - 100 Samples
Éric Crubézy 2010 (https://www.researchgate.net/publication/292962151_Le_peuplement_de_la_vallee_du_Nil)

J1-M267 = 1%
E1b1 = 74%
G-M201 = 7%
T-L206 = 3%
Ambiguous = 15%

Cairo Egyptians - 150 samples
Hammer Through Kieta 2009 (https://www.genetics.org/content/genetics/145/3/787.full.pdf?fbclid=IwAR3wo2NYhrOVi21CIJ9iupC3pNXp a7XG0eX-_rZ3LwsdpY6qYp21LJjbfg0)

E-M96 = 56% (YAP)
Non E = 44%

Northeast Delta - 25 samples
Persichetti through Semino 2008
(https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/1492745/)
E1b1 = 60%
Rest is Ambiguous

Other than those there are still some unpublished data (Authors refused I share them but allowed to have a look at it) from both the North and the South with pretty similar results.



Are the handful of E-V13 Egyptians related to Greek subclades? Anything known? Or are they geographically concentrated, like around Alexandria?

I have been contacted by an exotic Egyptian E-V13 balkan_like clade carrier few months ago who traced origins to East Delta, would bet my money he is some sort of Hellenistic, maybe even Ptolemaic royality as it went through my mind from his head shape :lol:

bunduqdari
05-30-2021, 07:58 PM
Without mentioning those FT-DNA and YFull Arabian funded Egyptian samples which mostly came from Bedouin recent migrated tribes in the country (last 300 to 500 years), that is interesting certain Gulf Arabs to fund. And that's well known actually as LifeISandy said, the Egyptian man testing those individuals with Saudi-Kuwaiti help is a personal friend to me and he already stated it at multiple interested social media groups.

Can you provide a link to this guy soliciting Saudis and Kuwaitis to fund dna tests for tribal Egyptians? And also can you list which tribes they are supposedly interested in studying or have funded in the Ftdna Egypt group?
Because there is no pattern to the Ftdna tests that I can see, or any meaningful connection to tribes in Kuwait.

Incidentally, the most recent tribe to arrive into Egypt is Bely. They originally arrived with the Islamic conquest of Egypt, according to the early Islamic sources like Ibn Abd al-Hakam and Al-Layth bin Sa'd and others who listed the tribes involved, and their descendents who still identify with the tribe are today scattered throughout Egypt from south to north. But another group of Bely migrated to Egypt in the 1930s after the Ibn Rufadah rebellion against Ibn Saud (https://ar.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D8%AA%D9%85%D8%B1%D8%AF_%D8%A7%D8%A8%D9%86_%D8%B1 %D9%81%D8%A7%D8%AF%D8%A9_1932). After the failed rebellion they moved en masse to Sharqiya in the Nile Delta. These guys are totally Saudi in their culture and still intermarry with Saudis. For example, here's a Bely wedding in Sharqiya (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ZZ44OQtqE0), not far from Cairo, and here's a Bely gathering (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WLpBMyL9HV4).

Xyz
06-07-2021, 02:03 PM
Deleted

Xyz
06-07-2021, 02:03 PM
Okayyyy

Xyz
06-07-2021, 02:04 PM
Okayyy

David Bush
06-25-2021, 01:18 PM
ALSO
https://i.ibb.co/2y4cMMm/Y-EGYPT.png

Table S6

https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0056775