PDA

View Full Version : Ancestral components that accompany West Asian ancestry on a chromosome painting



BalkanKiwi
03-31-2021, 06:26 AM
This is somewhat of a deviation from my Caucasus thread here (https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?23368-Croatians-and-the-Caucasus), given I seem to have found a few West Asian matches, and this seemed like the most appropriate place to ask the question.

I have found two interesting matches, one on GEDMatch, and the other on MyHeritage who is also on GEDMatch. Neither are related. I have contacted Match 1, who says all of his known ancestry is from Turkey. He said his 23andMe results are 50/50 Iranian and Anatolian. His Eurogenes K13 results validate this. Match 2 is 65% West Asian and 23% Eastern Euro on MyHeritage, and majority West Asian on Eurogenes K13.

I have done a chromosome painting for both matches for the segments we share:

Match 1 - This match triangulates with a Cypriot possibly? See here (https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?23368-Croatians-and-the-Caucasus&p=761513&viewfull=1#post761513) for their Mixed Mode results.

https://i.imgur.com/zOZ8fw6.jpg

Match 2 - This match triangulates with a Greek and an Italian.

https://i.imgur.com/i8UsiY4.jpg

My question is, are these typical West Asian segments (i.e. Minor East Med/West Asian with Atlantic and Baltic), or do we have a common ancestor that isn't West Asian? Initially I thought we did until I saw the chromosome painting, now I'm not sure. I expected the majority of the segments to be West Asian/East Med.

rober_tce
07-03-2022, 02:50 PM
The second segment crearly is european (mostly North Atlantic+Baltic), the common ancestor I would say is european.

The first segment have much North Atlantic+Baltic, but also have considerable East Med at final of it. In this case, the common ancestor could be a person admixed that lived in Modern Age in Ottoman Empire (as we know, Balkans por example belonged to Ottoman Empire during some centuries).

BalkanKiwi
07-04-2022, 09:44 AM
The second segment crearly is european (mostly North Atlantic+Baltic), the common ancestor I would say is european.

The first segment have much North Atlantic+Baltic, but also have considerable East Med at final of it. In this case, the common ancestor could be a person admixed that lived in Modern Age in Ottoman Empire (as we know, Balkans por example belonged to Ottoman Empire during some centuries).

Thank you, and yes I agree with that interpretation. Since I started this thread, I came across the following last year which I thought I'd post here, because these results are more interesting. These are 3 matches that triangulate with my father (results and painting from Eurogenes K13):

Match 1

# Population Percent
1 South_Asian 25.21
2 East_Med 22.36
3 West_Asian 20.67
4 West_Med 11.59
5 North_Atlantic 8.56
6 Baltic 6.86
7 East_Asian 2.84
8 Northeast_African 1.86

Single Population Sharing:
# Population (source) Distance
1 Turkmen 21.68
2 Azeri 22.38
3 Turkish 22.61
4 Afghan_Tadjik 22.96
5 Tadjik 23.8


Match 2

Admix Results (sorted):
# Population Percent
1 Baltic 23.13
2 East_Med 18.6
3 West_Asian 15.27
4 South_Asian 13.14
5 West_Med 12.7

Match 3

# Population Percent
1 East_Med 25.79
2 North_Atlantic 22.47
3 Baltic 19.32
4 West_Med 17.06
5 West_Asian 12.26

https://i.imgur.com/w7oFTDv.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/MCMGla6.jpg

Match 1 has the most interesting results, as my father and Match 1 also seem to share some of Match 1's Northeast African along that segment. I included their Single Population, as I'm not sure based on their results where they might be from. They have higher South Asian than I'm used to seeing. I included a Chromo Painting between Match 1 and 2 to see how they compare in the same spot. They seem to share more South Asian and Red Sea than with my father.

Based on the above, is it possible we all have a common West Asian ancestor, or is it likely our common ancestor is from somewhere else? Particularly with that Northeast African signal between my father and Match 1 on the painting, which clusters with the East Med. On every G25 calculator, my father gets anywhere between 2-4% Arabian, so if not a West Asian ancestor, then perhaps a distant East Med or West Med one? The match between my father and Match one isn't large (only 9.8cM), so whatever it is, its quite old.

Onur Dincer
07-09-2022, 06:41 AM
Firstly, Match 1 is probably lying about his ancestry and 23andMe result. He has Gypsy/Roma results, nothing to do with Turkish or Iranian results. Turks and Iranians (except pops like Baloch among Iranians) never show that high South Asian component in Eurogenes K13, Anatolian Turks, Armenians and Assyrians show about 3-4% and typical Iranians show about 10%, populations like Baloch show South Asian levels similar to Match 1 but they are very different in the other components. Match 1 seems to be a Gypsy/Roma based on his results, probably from the Balkans. Here is a Gypsy/Roma result (probably from the Balkans) very similar to Match 1:

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 South_Asian 24.43
2 West_Asian 21.13
3 East_Med 20.6
4 West_Med 12.05
5 North_Atlantic 8.28
6 Baltic 6.98
7 Red_Sea 2.82
8 East_Asian 1.69
9 Oceanian 0.87
10 Sub-Saharan 0.63
11 Siberian 0.5
12 Northeast_African 0.04

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Turkmen 21.12
2 Azeri 21.56
3 Turkish 21.74
4 Afghan_Tadjik 22.02
5 Tadjik 22.68
6 Iranian 23.17
7 Afghan_Pashtun 23.32
8 Kurdish 24.68
9 Central_Greek 26.11
10 East_Sicilian 26.19
11 Pathan 26.48
12 Kumyk 26.57
13 South_Italian 26.86
14 Greek_Thessaly 26.87
15 Syrian 27.06
16 Italian_Abruzzo 27.12
17 Ashkenazi 27.42
18 Lebanese_Muslim 27.44
19 Assyrian 27.92
20 Iranian_Jewish 27.98

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 54.2% Cyprian + 45.8% Brahmin_UP @ 3.87
2 58% South_Italian + 42% Gujarati @ 3.96
3 50.5% Punjabi_Jat + 49.5% Algerian_Jewish @ 4.22
4 58% South_Italian + 42% Kshatriya @ 4.36
5 63.9% Central_Greek + 36.1% Velamas @ 4.38
6 55.6% Algerian_Jewish + 44.4% Gujarati @ 4.49
7 58.6% East_Sicilian + 41.4% Gujarati @ 4.49
8 57.5% Ashkenazi + 42.5% Gujarati @ 4.54
9 55% Italian_Jewish + 45% Gujarati @ 4.59
10 53% Ashkenazi + 47% Sindhi @ 4.66
11 58.7% Central_Greek + 41.3% Gujarati @ 4.67
12 56.1% Sephardic_Jewish + 43.9% Gujarati @ 4.84
13 51.1% Punjabi_Jat + 48.9% Italian_Jewish @ 4.86
14 58.8% Central_Greek + 41.2% Kshatriya @ 4.93
15 58.7% East_Sicilian + 41.3% Kshatriya @ 4.95
16 64.4% Central_Greek + 35.6% Kurumba @ 5.03
17 52.8% Pathan + 47.2% Algerian_Jewish @ 5.15
18 63.9% East_Sicilian + 36.1% Velamas @ 5.19
19 55.9% Cyprian + 44.1% Kshatriya @ 5.22
20 51.1% Algerian_Jewish + 48.9% Sindhi @ 5.29

As for Match 2, based on that Eurogenes K13 result, that individual must be someone with partial Gypsy/Roma ancestry as opposed to full like Match 1.

Match 3 is most like northern mainland Greeks and Albanians in genetics.

Secondly, East Med and similar ancestries are found in the Balkans at least since the Neolithic times, nothing to do with the Ottoman expansion, the Ottomans barely had any effect on Balkan genetics.

Finally, since apparently those matches are not close matches to BalkanKiwi's father, I would say that it is hard to pinpoint where their common ancestry comes from. Wish I could help more on that.

BalkanKiwi
07-09-2022, 06:55 AM
Firstly, Match 1 is probably lying about his ancestry and 23andMe result. He has Gypsy/Roma results, nothing to do with Turkish or Iranian results. Turks and Iranians (except pops like Baloch among Iranians) never show that high South Asian component in Eurogenes K13, Anatolian Turks, Armenians and Assyrians show about 3-4% and typical Iranians show about 10%, populations like Baloch show South Asian levels similar to Match 1 but they are very different in the other components. Match 1 seems to be a Gypsy/Roma based on his results, probably from the Balkans. Here is a Gypsy/Roma result (probably from the Balkans) very similar to Match 1:

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 South_Asian 24.43
2 West_Asian 21.13
3 East_Med 20.6
4 West_Med 12.05
5 North_Atlantic 8.28
6 Baltic 6.98
7 Red_Sea 2.82
8 East_Asian 1.69
9 Oceanian 0.87
10 Sub-Saharan 0.63
11 Siberian 0.5
12 Northeast_African 0.04

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Turkmen 21.12
2 Azeri 21.56
3 Turkish 21.74
4 Afghan_Tadjik 22.02
5 Tadjik 22.68
6 Iranian 23.17
7 Afghan_Pashtun 23.32
8 Kurdish 24.68
9 Central_Greek 26.11
10 East_Sicilian 26.19
11 Pathan 26.48
12 Kumyk 26.57
13 South_Italian 26.86
14 Greek_Thessaly 26.87
15 Syrian 27.06
16 Italian_Abruzzo 27.12
17 Ashkenazi 27.42
18 Lebanese_Muslim 27.44
19 Assyrian 27.92
20 Iranian_Jewish 27.98

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 54.2% Cyprian + 45.8% Brahmin_UP @ 3.87
2 58% South_Italian + 42% Gujarati @ 3.96
3 50.5% Punjabi_Jat + 49.5% Algerian_Jewish @ 4.22
4 58% South_Italian + 42% Kshatriya @ 4.36
5 63.9% Central_Greek + 36.1% Velamas @ 4.38
6 55.6% Algerian_Jewish + 44.4% Gujarati @ 4.49
7 58.6% East_Sicilian + 41.4% Gujarati @ 4.49
8 57.5% Ashkenazi + 42.5% Gujarati @ 4.54
9 55% Italian_Jewish + 45% Gujarati @ 4.59
10 53% Ashkenazi + 47% Sindhi @ 4.66
11 58.7% Central_Greek + 41.3% Gujarati @ 4.67
12 56.1% Sephardic_Jewish + 43.9% Gujarati @ 4.84
13 51.1% Punjabi_Jat + 48.9% Italian_Jewish @ 4.86
14 58.8% Central_Greek + 41.2% Kshatriya @ 4.93
15 58.7% East_Sicilian + 41.3% Kshatriya @ 4.95
16 64.4% Central_Greek + 35.6% Kurumba @ 5.03
17 52.8% Pathan + 47.2% Algerian_Jewish @ 5.15
18 63.9% East_Sicilian + 36.1% Velamas @ 5.19
19 55.9% Cyprian + 44.1% Kshatriya @ 5.22
20 51.1% Algerian_Jewish + 48.9% Sindhi @ 5.29

As for Match 2, based on that Eurogenes K13 result, that individual must be someone with partial Gypsy/Roma ancestry as opposed to full like Match 1.

Match 3 is most like northern mainland Greeks and Albanians in genetics.

Secondly, East Med and similar ancestries are found in the Balkans at least since the Neolithic times, nothing to do with the Ottoman expansion, the Ottomans barely had any effect on Balkan genetics.

Finally, since apparently those matches are not close matches to BalkanKiwi's father, I would say that it is hard to pinpoint where their common ancestry comes from. Wish I could help more on that.

Thanks for responding Onur. I haven't seen Gypsy/Roma results before, so that's certainly helpful to see. Perhaps we might all share a Euro ancestor. In any case, I can cease looking for West Asian matches. I guess its possible any East Med my father has possibly came through another route (perhaps somewhere like Italy etc), unfortunately we'll never know. Thanks again for the explanation.

Onur Dincer
07-09-2022, 07:05 AM
Thanks for responding Onur. I haven't seen Gypsy/Roma results before, so that's certainly helpful to see. Perhaps we might all share a Euro ancestor. In any case, I can cease looking for West Asian matches. I guess its possible any East Med my father has possibly came through another route (perhaps somewhere like Italy etc), unfortunately we'll never know. Thanks again for the explanation.

You are welcome BalkanKiwi. Your father's East Med connection must be mostly through the Balkans given his Croatian ancestry and Balkan matches like the ones above.

Onur Dincer
07-09-2022, 07:18 AM
BalkanKiwi, basically all those three matches seem to be from the Balkans and environs, one with fully Gypsy/Roma ancestry, one with partial such ancestry and one with no such ancestry. Full Balkan Gypsy/Roma people have high Balkan and West Asian genetic input BTW, but your father's connection to them seems to be through the Balkan ancestry given the chromosome painting results and your father's overall genetics and known ancestry.

Onur Dincer
07-09-2022, 07:22 AM
By Balkan ancestry I mean post-Slavic migration Balkan ancestry BTW.

BalkanKiwi
07-09-2022, 08:09 AM
By Balkan ancestry I mean post-Slavic migration Balkan ancestry BTW.

Thanks for the clarification Onur. In general, are there any known East Med areas (the Levant etc) that contributed ancestry to the Balkans at any particular points in history? I'd imagine it would be very ancient ancestry.

Onur Dincer
07-09-2022, 08:18 AM
Thanks for the clarification Onur. In general, are there any known East Med areas (the Levant etc) that contributed ancestry to the Balkans at any particular points in history? I'd imagine it would be very ancient ancestry.

Like I said before, the East Med component of Eurogenes K13 is found in the Balkans since the Neolithic times at least, but over the millennia different populations with East Med arrived in the Balkans too. Almost all those migrations are from the times outside the detectability levels from the matches of modern individuals though.

rober_tce
07-10-2022, 10:52 AM
Iím agree with Onur Dincer, these matches have much South Asian, it means that possibly they have related with roma populations, overall the first one.

I think that your common ancestor were balcanic people, in chr. painting, we can see europeans markers mixed with East Med (balkan people received also genetic of East Med since ancient times) and very little South Asian. We know roma people arrived to East Europe and Balkans before extend along Western Europe. Surely must there was some kind of admixture in your origin land. Certainly, they are very interesting matches.