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Behar
04-04-2021, 03:52 PM
Hello everyone.
I wanted to know if there are italki and romaniote kits on Gedmatch.
I saw that in a discussion it was talked about but it is not clear to me if there are active kits at the moment on the site.

Erikl86
04-04-2021, 03:59 PM
Hello everyone.
I wanted to know if there are italki and romaniote kits on Gedmatch.
I saw that in a discussion it was talked about but it is not clear to me if there are active kits at the moment on the site.

Yes there are several GEDmatch kits of both Romaniote and Italki.

A question - are you perhaps related to Dr. Doron Behar? Feel free to answer via PM for confidentiality.

Behar
04-04-2021, 05:07 PM
Thanks, can you send me the kit numbers via Pm?

Unfortunately I cannot send private messages because 10 messages in the forum are required, I can only receive them at the moment.

Behar
04-05-2021, 08:31 AM
Thanks to Tomenable for the mail.

Behar
04-05-2021, 11:16 AM
Qqqqqqqqq

Sam1989
04-05-2021, 02:48 PM
I will really appreciate if someone could send me those kits numbers as well :)

Behar
04-05-2021, 04:51 PM
I sent you the kits. :)

Claudio
04-06-2021, 06:05 PM
I sent you the kits. :)

Sounds like the Italki kits we had on here about 2 years ago which were eventually taken down to be re-uploaded for better coverage.
If I remember correctly they were very Romananiote like (with some being indistinguishable from Romaniote kits)
They all seemed to have Italian Ashkenazi admixture as most everyone of Ashkenazi ancestry shared CM’s.
Also if these are the kits I’m thinking of you might find something of interest if you run each individual italki kit against each other on the One to One feature as I Remember being shocked to discover that some of the Italki’s were only very minorly related to each other with some not sharing any DNA full stop.

Behar
04-07-2021, 09:32 AM
Sounds like the Italki kits we had on here about 2 years ago which were eventually taken down to be re-uploaded for better coverage.
If I remember correctly they were very Romananiote like (with some being indistinguishable from Romaniote kits)
They all seemed to have Italian Ashkenazi admixture as most everyone of Ashkenazi ancestry shared CM’s.
Also if these are the kits I’m thinking of you might find something of interest if you run each individual italki kit against each other on the One to One feature as I Remember being shocked to discover that some of the Italki’s were only very minorly related to each other with some not sharing any DNA full stop.

I sent you a Pm.

Sam1989
04-07-2021, 12:24 PM
Yes. All these kits are private

Behar
04-08-2021, 09:29 AM
I noticed one thing. Some of them (I would say half) have a very high Ashkenazi component, as if they had a completely Ashkenazi parent (they score 10 to 13 in the JTest). Is this due to the Italian Ashkenazi component I think. I know that many surnames of Italian Jews derive from Italianizations of Ashkenazi surnames, such as Ottolenghi, Morpurgo, Luzzatto. The thing that surprises me is that there are few matches between them. If they lived truly isolated from other groups of Jews, this should not be the case. Instead it occurs to me that they have always been open to welcoming other Jewish communities.

Seabass
04-08-2021, 03:17 PM
The thing that surprises me is that there are few matches between them. If they lived truly isolated from other groups of Jews, this should not be the case. Instead it occurs to me that they have always been open to welcoming other Jewish communities.

I think the story of the Jewish community of Rome is a similar story to the one of the ottoman empire. Some sephardic Jews are more likely to pop up as dna relatives with a random Ashkenazi than say other sephardic Jews from the same country as them. I'm not sure if this is why you're surprised, but in one Atzmon autosomal study, it did look as if Italian Jews in that one were clining towards their own unique space away from western Jews. I have no idea the reason for that, but it could be that the Italian Jews in the Atzmon study are different to the Behar one which I'm guessing is where the gedmatch/G25 Italian Jews from Rome are from. Would be worth looking over and checking again.

Cascio
04-09-2021, 07:01 AM
Funnily enough, the Chief Rabbi of Rome, Riccardo Di Segni, is of mixed Italki and Ashkenazi extraction.

Behar
04-09-2021, 08:40 AM
I think the story of the Jewish community of Rome is a similar story to the one of the ottoman empire. Some sephardic Jews are more likely to pop up as dna relatives with a random Ashkenazi than say other sephardic Jews from the same country as them. I'm not sure if this is why you're surprised, but in one Atzmon autosomal study, it did look as if Italian Jews in that one were clining towards their own unique space away from western Jews. I have no idea the reason for that, but it could be that the Italian Jews in the Atzmon study are different to the Behar one which I'm guessing is where the gedmatch/G25 Italian Jews from Rome are from. Would be worth looking over and checking again.

Exact. This amazes me. How is it possible that Italkis and Sephardi are more likely to have matches with a random Ashkenazi than with each other?

On the second question, among the kits I have seen I would say that about half have a good Ashkenazi component, but this as I said I think is due to the fact that several surnames that are passed off as Italian Jews are actually Ashkenazi in origin. (the surname Tedeschi comes from a translation of the surname Ashkenazi, Polacco comes from Polish, and they were Polish Jews) I believe that the history of Italian Jews has been intertwined with that of the Ashkenazis, except in rare cases. Apparently and what emerges from the kits, the Jewish community of Rome also had Ashkenazi influences. There is another thing to say, the Jews of the community of Rome (which is only one of the many Jewish communities in Italy, remember for example that of Ancona), are sometimes the result of Jews who came from all over the Italy, which had perhaps received a greater Ashkenazi influence, as in the regions of northern Italy.


Funnily enough, the Chief Rabbi of Rome, Riccardo Di Segni, is of mixed Italki and Ashkenazi extraction.

Seriously? How do you know this?

Pylsteen
04-09-2021, 08:57 AM
A part of my Amsterdam Sephardic side is from communities in the Emilia Romagna / Venice area, and I have the impression that they weren't Sephardic initially (in contrast to my Livorno line), but if they were mixed Ashkenazi/Italkim is unclear to me too. Mixture from Provencal jews might be possible too. How would Provencal jews look like genetically? "Proto-"Ashkenazi?

Ajeje Brazorf
04-09-2021, 09:20 AM
If possible, I would also like to receive via PM the Italki and Romaniote kits.

Behar
04-09-2021, 09:32 AM
A part of my Amsterdam Sephardic side is from communities in the Emilia Romagna / Venice area, and I have the impression that they weren't Sephardic initially (in contrast to my Livorno line), but if they were mixed Ashkenazi/Italkim is unclear to me too. Mixture from Provencal jews might be possible too. How would Provencal jews look like genetically? "Proto-"Ashkenazi?

Yes i think that the Jews of Emilia Romagna are a mix of Italki and Ashkenazi, but it is strange not to have Sephardi traces. I wouldn't want to go off topic and start arguing about provencal jews.

Cascio
04-09-2021, 12:51 PM
Exact. This amazes me. How is it possible that Italkis and Sephardi are more likely to have matches with a random Ashkenazi than with each other?

On the second question, among the kits I have seen I would say that about half have a good Ashkenazi component, but this as I said I think is due to the fact that several surnames that are passed off as Italian Jews are actually Ashkenazi in origin. (the surname Tedeschi comes from a translation of the surname Ashkenazi, Polacco comes from Polish, and they were Polish Jews) I believe that the history of Italian Jews has been intertwined with that of the Ashkenazis, except in rare cases. Apparently and what emerges from the kits, the Jewish community of Rome also had Ashkenazi influences. There is another thing to say, the Jews of the community of Rome (which is only one of the many Jewish communities in Italy, remember for example that of Ancona), are sometimes the result of Jews who came from all over the Italy, which had perhaps received a greater Ashkenazi influence, as in the regions of northern Italy.



Seriously? How do you know this?

Read it online.

leorcooper19
04-09-2021, 01:50 PM
I noticed one thing. Some of them (I would say half) have a very high Ashkenazi component, as if they had a completely Ashkenazi parent (they score 10 to 13 in the JTest). Is this due to the Italian Ashkenazi component I think. I know that many surnames of Italian Jews derive from Italianizations of Ashkenazi surnames, such as Ottolenghi, Morpurgo, Luzzatto. The thing that surprises me is that there are few matches between them. If they lived truly isolated from other groups of Jews, this should not be the case. Instead it occurs to me that they have always been open to welcoming other Jewish communities.

I'd just like to add that I think you'd need a control in this experiment before taking the results literally. How do we know that scoring 10-13% Ashkenazi in JTest isn't a common score for all non-Ashkenazi Western Jews? Moroccan non-Jews for example score 7.79% Ashkenazi in JTest (see the spreadsheet on GEDmatch for other non-Jewish population scores), and I have to believe that Moroccan Jews would score much more even though they are not descendant from Ashkenazim in any significant way.

Anyone with access to the GEDmatch kits of Western Jews from populations that are low in Ashkenazic heritage, please share some JTest scores to see what Ashkenazi scores they get.

That all said, I'm sure that Italian Jews (especially from the north and central regions) have lots of real Ashkenazi ancestors.

Behar
04-09-2021, 02:02 PM
Read it online.

I checked on the internet but I did not find this curiosity about the chief rabbi of Rome, I thought he had a Sephardi heritage (Di Porto: coming from Porto, Portugal)


I'd just like to add that I think you'd need a control in this experiment before taking the results literally. How do we know that scoring 10-13% Ashkenazi in JTest isn't a common score for all non-Ashkenazi Western Jews? Moroccan non-Jews for example score 7.79% Ashkenazi in JTest (see the spreadsheet on GEDmatch for other non-Jewish population scores), and I have to believe that Moroccan Jews would score much more even though they are not descendant from Ashkenazim in any significant way.

Anyone with access to the GEDmatch kits of Western Jews from populations that are low in Ashkenazic heritage, please share some JTest scores to see what Ashkenazi scores they get.

You're right, the JTest is reliable up to a point. I drew the conclusion by also seeing how many matches and segments they share with the Ashkenazis. About half are many, for the other half I would say little.


That all said, I'm sure that Italian Jews (especially from the north and central regions) have lots of real Ashkenazi ancestors.

Exact

Cascio
04-09-2021, 02:13 PM
I checked on the internet but I did not find this curiosity about the chief rabbi of Rome, I thought he had a Sephardi heritage (Di Porto: coming from Porto, Portugal)



You're right, the JTest is reliable up to a point. I drew the conclusion by also seeing how many matches and segments they share with the Ashkenazis. About half are many, for the other half I would say little.



Exact

His name is Di Segni, after a town in Lazio close to Rome, and he is a rabbi of the Italian or Italki Rite.

Most Italian Jews, regardless of origin, now follow the Italkian Rite. Of course Ashkenazi synagogues can be found in Rome and Northern Italy.

The Sephardi rite in Italy is now mostly confined to incomers from Libya and Iran.

The historically famous Livornesim, "Portuguese" (A Nacao) Sephardi Jews in Livorno, now live mainly in France or Israel.

Behar
04-09-2021, 04:05 PM
His name is Di Segni, after a town in Lazio close to Rome, and he is a rabbi of the Italian or Italki Rite.

Most Italian Jews, regardless of origin, now follow the Italkian Rite. Of course Ashkenazi synagogues can be found in Rome and Northern Italy.

The Sephardi rite in Italy is now mostly confined to incomers from Libya and Iran.

The historically famous Livornesim, "Portuguese" (La Nacao) Sephardi Jews in Livorno, now live mainly in France or Israel.

I had confused him with Ariel Di Porto, who if I'm not mistaken was a rabbi in Turin. I really believe that the answer can be found in the historical presence of the Ashkenazi in the Italian Jewish communities, thus creating the modern Italki Jews who, in some cases, have an accentuated Ashkenazi component. In other cases they have retained an Italian Jewish component with little Ashkenazi heritage.

passenger
04-09-2021, 04:42 PM
Now that MH has genetic communities, I thought it might be interesting to see what turns up for my family's Italian Jewish matches.

One of my mom's Italian Jewish matches on MH has almost entirely Italki surnames in his tree going back several generations. A couple may be of Sephardic origin, but none are of Ashkenazi origin.

His ethnicity breakdown is: 11.5% Ashkenazi, 5.3% Iberian, 6.4% Italian, 30.5% Greek and South Italian, 26.9% Sephardic - North African, 19.4% Middle Eastern

Interestingly, all 4 of his assigned genetic communities are Ashkenazi, 3 from Western/Central Europe (Netherlands, Germany, Austria, Poland etc.) and 1 from Eastern Europe.

Another has a mix of Italki, Sephardic and Italian Ashkenazi/Provençal names (e.g. Ottolenghi and Lattes). His breakdown is: 48.5% Ashkenazi, 4.9% Italian, 6.5% Greek and South Italian, 14.0% Sephardic - North African, 17.6% Middle Eastern and 8.5% West Asian.

He has 6 Ashkenazi groups, more evenly mixed between Western and Eastern and also 1 Sephardic group (Turkey, Greece, Algeria, Morocco and France - essentially Eastern Sephardic). One of his ancestors was born in Alexandria, so that might be the Eastern Sephardic connection, but given the surnames I think it was likely a Western Sephardic (Livornese) branch that moved to Egypt and then returned to Italy.

Behar
04-09-2021, 09:18 PM
Now that MH has genetic communities, I thought it might be interesting to see what turns up for my family's Italian Jewish matches.

One of my mom's Italian Jewish matches on MH has almost entirely Italki surnames in his tree going back several generations. A couple may be of Sephardic origin, but none are of Ashkenazi origin.

His ethnicity breakdown is: 11.5% Ashkenazi, 5.3% Iberian, 6.4% Italian, 30.5% Greek and South Italian, 26.9% Sephardic - North African, 19.4% Middle Eastern

Interestingly, all 4 of his assigned genetic communities are Ashkenazi, 3 from Western/Central Europe (Netherlands, Germany, Austria, Poland etc.) and 1 from Eastern Europe.

Another has a mix of Italki, Sephardic and Italian Ashkenazi/Provençal names (e.g. Ottolenghi and Lattes). His breakdown is: 48.5% Ashkenazi, 4.9% Italian, 6.5% Greek and South Italian, 14.0% Sephardic - North African, 17.6% Middle Eastern and 8.5% West Asian.

He has 6 Ashkenazi groups, more evenly mixed between Western and Eastern and also 1 Sephardic group (Turkey, Greece, Algeria, Morocco and France - essentially Eastern Sephardic). One of his ancestors was born in Alexandria, so that might be the Eastern Sephardic connection, but given the surnames I think it was likely a Western Sephardic (Livornese) branch that moved to Egypt and then returned to Italy.

Thanks for this report. Also from what you have said it is confirmed that Italian Modern Jews have a heterogeneous and varied origin. By taking only these two samples you mentioned, you can see how they have received different influences. In the same way, from the kits that I have analyzed, it emerges how different they are from each other, but also the fact that they have few matches between them and, in some cases, not even one.

In Italy each Jewish community has its own history and each city has its own history, so the same is reflected on Italian Jews. In certain communities and in certain cities we can have a greater Ashkenazi influence, I think of the Jewish community of Venice, in other Sephardi, such as the community of Livorno, in still others a more varied composition. However, each community received a good mix of components.



One of my mom's Italian Jewish matches on MH has almost entirely Italki surnames in his tree going back several generations. A couple may be of Sephardic origin, but none are of Ashkenazi origin.

I have some doubts about this: even when Jewish surnames seem Italian, see city surnames, their origin can be, for example, Ashkenazi. The Jewish surname Ancona was used by different Jewish members who, at the time of adopting a surname, were in the city of Ancona. Therefore they could also come from non-Italian Jews.

hartaisarlag
04-09-2021, 09:24 PM
I have some doubts about this: even when Jewish surnames seem Italian, see city surnames, their origin can be, for example, Ashkenazi. The Jewish surname Ancona was used by different Jewish members who, at the time of adopting a surname, were in the city of Ancona. Therefore they could also come from non-Italian Jews.

To jump in: this turned out to be the case for the Volterra family, with a 13th or 14th century pedigree going back to Bologna (and later, obviously, Volterra). They turn out to fall well downstream in an Ashkenazi subclade. They probably lost their Ashkenazi tradition right around the time of their first pedigreed ancestors; everyone thought of them as Italki, and the initial hope was that they'd be basal to the major Ashkenazi Y-DNA branch they're in.

passenger
04-09-2021, 09:36 PM
I have some doubts about this: even when Jewish surnames seem Italian, see city surnames, their origin can be, for example, Ashkenazi. The Jewish surname Ancona was used by different Jewish members who, at the time of adopting a surname, were in the city of Ancona. Therefore they could also come from non-Italian Jews.

Certainly. There are a few toponymics in there, and I haven't researched all those names. I'll PM them to you, since I don't want to compromise this individual's privacy here. Regardless of the origins of the surnames, as I (and others) have said before on other threads, I'm quite sure there's no such thing as a modern Italian Jew whose roots come solely from "native" Italkim present on the peninsula before Sephardic and Ashkenazi migration. They've all got to be mixed to varying degrees.

Pylsteen
05-01-2021, 06:07 PM
A part of my Amsterdam Sephardic side is from communities in the Emilia Romagna / Venice area, and I have the impression that they weren't Sephardic initially (in contrast to my Livorno line), but if they were mixed Ashkenazi/Italkim is unclear to me too. Mixture from Provencal jews might be possible too. How would Provencal jews look like genetically? "Proto-"Ashkenazi?

I have found that my Reggio line has been characterized as "Italian jewish" although mixture with Ashkenazi families have occurred among some family members; I have found that the Venice line was part of the levantine (east Sephardic) community, so now this might explain why they easily entered the Amsterdam Sephardic community (around 1700) instead of the Ashkenazi one. In any case, these were the two options, in Amsterdam there was no Italkim rite to choose from.

Maleusscrotorum
05-20-2021, 11:55 AM
Thanks for this report. Also from what you have said it is confirmed that Italian Modern Jews have a heterogeneous and varied origin. By taking only these two samples you mentioned, you can see how they have received different influences. In the same way, from the kits that I have analyzed, it emerges how different they are from each other, but also the fact that they have few matches between them and, in some cases, not even one.

In Italy each Jewish community has its own history and each city has its own history, so the same is reflected on Italian Jews. In certain communities and in certain cities we can have a greater Ashkenazi influence, I think of the Jewish community of Venice, in other Sephardi, such as the community of Livorno, in still others a more varied composition. However, each community received a good mix of components.



I have some doubts about this: even when Jewish surnames seem Italian, see city surnames, their origin can be, for example, Ashkenazi. The Jewish surname Ancona was used by different Jewish members who, at the time of adopting a surname, were in the city of Ancona. Therefore they could also come from non-Italian Jews.


The above assertions broadly agree with my own research. Indeed, there seems to be a northeast to southwest gradient specifically with regards to Ashkenazi Jewish ancestry in Italy. As noted above, the city of Venice was a significant center of German Jewish culture in northern Italy, with 18th century records indication no fewer than eight Ashkenazic rite synagogues in the city, if I remember correctly. Indeed, the very first Jewish settlers in the city were transalpine immigrants from the German speaking lands. We also find a preponderance of Ashkenazic names in other northeastern cities such as Padua, Ceneda (now Vittorio Veneto, birthplace of Lorenzo da Ponte) Trieste and Gorizia, with names such as Morpurgo, Luzzatto, Ottolenghi, Pincherle, and Michelstaeder dominating marriage and birth records there.

My own research has indicated a gradual increase in Italki names as you get closer to Rome. Already in the cities such as Modena and Ferrara one begins to see more Finzi’s, Sacerdote’s and Foa’s in archival records. An interesting exception is Livorno, whose community seems to have been mostly Sephardic. Rome and southern Italy I would imagine to have varying degrees of Sephardic and Italkic, especially given of the region’s historical associations with Spain.

From a genetic perspective, I can attest to this as well. I have a half Jewish cousin whose great grandmother was from Venice, whose DNA is 48.2 Ashkenazi on 23andme. Similarly another cousin with the same great grandmother shows up as 98.1 percent Ashkenazi. Still other more distant cousins all point to her being more or less fully Ashkenazi, at least genetically. Another match of mine, with a Jewish grandparent from Modena has 24.4 percent Ashkenazi.